The Best Marketing Is Free. Almost Nobody Does It.

Growth Newsletter: https://levelingup.beehiiv.com/subscribe Need marketing help? Visit: https://www.singlegrain.com/ and https://npdigital.com/Want to recruit great marketers? Find them here: https://marketingschool.io/hire Eric brings the DHH question — outspend or outteach? — and the hosts take sides on the cheapest marketing that almost nobody has the patience to do. Then it gets personal: why Bezos Expeditions invested in Basecamp, whether pressure makes winners, the hairy reality of agency M&A (data rooms, earn-outs, and numbers that never survive diligence), a tale of two agency contractors, and why revenue beats views every single time. A candid operator's episode on teaching, buying, and building agencies. Key takeaways◾Outteaching compounds — it's the free marketing nobody commits to◾In agency M&A, the seller's numbers never survive the data room◾Optimize for revenue, not reach Chapters00:00 Outspend vs outteach: the DHH question01:12 Bezos and Basecamp02:21 Pressure makes winners05:48 The agency M&A trap09:55 Managing mistakes properly12:09 A tale of two agencies18:33 Revenue over views

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Finding customer information shouldn't mean digging through emails, call notes and spreadsheets. HubSpot Starter Plan brings all of those details together, so it's easier to track what's happening with every deal and what to do next. It pulls information from calls and emails. Then it gets to work, logging and summarizing them. Right after your call ends, HubSpot pulls next steps from your call notes and drafts suggested follow-ups. And it stays up to date for you, so you can build demand, win more deals and spend less time on repetitive work. Your records, insights and next steps are ready for you to act on. And you don't have to miss a beat searching for any of it. Try the Starter Plan for $10 a month. Learn more at hubspot.com. So anyway, um, by the way, I was listening to this, uh, this podcast with, um, you know who DHH is? Thirty Seven Signals?

• 0:45Speaker 01

  David Hansel.

• 0:47Speaker 00

  David Hademires or Hademizer Henzel or something?

• 0:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, something like that.

• 0:50Speaker 00

  Or maybe David, because I know David Henzel, so I'm just putting that there. David Hademizer or something, so, um.

• 0:55Speaker 01

  I just know he likes sports cars and I think he lives in Malibu.

• 0:58Speaker 00

  Yes, he does. So he was actually talking about when they raised money from Jeff Bezos, the first thing he did was to buy a sports car. Because he's like, you know, I deserve it and we're gonna, we're gonna make the money for it, right? That, that was his take on it. So it was an interesting podcast, but there's one thing that sticks out to me and I think you have a point of view here, right? He's like, it's always better to out teach versus outspend when it comes to marketing. Out teaching is the best way and that's how he grew in Basecamp, you know, we did all these blog posts, blah, blah, blah. But the interesting thing is later he's like, well, you know, the blog posts aren't working that well today anymore because da, da, da. So I'm like, don't get me wrong, I love teaching, but I don't necessarily agree that out teaching is the best way to outspend. If you have a lot of money, it just spent on ads and you have a good offer, you have, you have good messaging behind it. I still think that's better than out teaching.

• 1:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. On a side note, you want to hear something interesting about Basecamp?

• 1:46Speaker 00

  What?

• 1:47Speaker 01

  So Basil's Expedition did the investment. I don't know why they did it. I, this was years ago, I talked to Melinda who runs Basil's Expedition. Uh, I don't know her well, but I've had a few phone calls with her over the years. They ended up investing in Basecamp. Did you know they've, uh, Basecamp does distributions? But they've gotten paid all their money back plus a lot more over the years. It's been a great return.

• 2:09Speaker 00

  Do you know why Jeff Bezos invested?

• 2:11Speaker 01

  I think it's something to do with design or principles or some of the stuff that they're doing that he liked.

• 2:17Speaker 00

  No, he was just curious. He was curious and he liked working with founders and he liked what they were doing. And they had reached out to Basecamp a few times. So Amazon, uh, his team had reached, Jeff, it's like, Jeff wants to meet you. They're like, no, you know, we don't need VCs, right? Da, da, da. And he's like, well, no, Jeff really wants to meet you. I was like, well, fine, it's Jeff Bezos. Well, they'll meet, right? So they, that's when they took on money. But DHH, by the way, when he came to the US, he only had 50 grand and he spent all that money on an Audi. Clearly couldn't afford it and he said it himself. So sometimes, by the way, you know, if you want to, I've seen entrepreneurs where it's like they clearly can't afford something, but they will buy the thing. And that will inspire them to work harder. So, you know, to each their own.

• 2:55Speaker 01

  I have a bad habit of pushing people in sales to spend more money so then that way they close more. It actually works really well. So.

• 3:04Speaker 00

  You don't have to name names, but I can give an example.

• 3:07Speaker 01

  I, I'll give a real life example, um, and I'll be pretty public about this. It's actually worked out for my co-founder, my co-founder.

• 3:16Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 3:17Speaker 01

  Uh, bought a home in Las Vegas years ago. It was a big home. It was three levels. It was expensive. It was expensive even for Los Angeles.

• 3:25Speaker 00

  You pushed him so hard that you helped?

• 3:27Speaker 01

  It helped, but then he sold it for a profit. And then he bought a home at that time in the community I lived in or a piece of land and then he was building.

• 3:37Speaker 01

  And that's turned out really well for him as well. But what I find is when people do transactions that make them uncomfortable. A lot of times, specifically with good people, I, I don't do this with people who suck. But with good people, it, it brings out the best in them. And you see that fire being lit all over them and they just perform really well. And I never push people on things that are bad decisions. So like example would be a car. I wouldn't tell someone to go spend money on a car. Even if they were doing well or not doing well. But a home, like things like that, um, I had a friend this morning who called me about a home. It's a little bit out of his reach, but I know he can afford it.

• 4:22Speaker 01

  And I said, you should do it. And he's just like, you sure? And I'm like, dude, you have, you have a view of a golf course, you have a view of the water. This is amazing. You got a good price. The seller needs to sell because they're in a jam. So they're willing to give him a steep discount. And I'm like, rates are high right now. You're taking on a mortgage. But within five years, rates should drop. I don't know what they will. I doubt they'll go back to where they were, but they'll drop. And as rates drop, in theory, and the market starts turning around, in theory, his property should balloon up and he's getting a steal of a price right now. In which the seller is so desperate, they'll do things like give him furniture, uh, reduce costs. They even said, oh, if the appraisal comes back different, let us know, we're flexible.

• 5:06Speaker 01

  Like there's, they just have to get the transaction done and they're willing to lose money just because they're in a jam.

• 5:12Speaker 00

  And that's good. It's, again, I think the, the pressure, the good people can take the pressure. It's a booster. The bad people, that's, you don't want to pressure them because they already couldn't take the pressure anyway.

• 5:21Speaker 01

  Totally agree. And e- even with him, when he was going through the process, he's like, this is a little expensive. I'm like, you have two cars, right? He's like, yeah. He's like, the other one is a collector's car. I'm like, are you losing money on the collector's car? He's like, no, it's up. Does, I'm like, does it go up a lot? He's like, no. I'm like, sell it. He's like, yeah, people hit me up all the time about it. I'm like, sell it. Use that money towards a house. And I started going through all the things he has in his life that he doesn't need. And I bet you he'll pick up another like 80, 90 grand, which will then make the property more feasible. And then his current home that he lives in, he's gonna, he wants to sell it. I said, why do you want to sell it? He's like, then it'll be really easy on me. I'm like, dude, you got a property with, I believe, a 2.25% interest rate?

• 6:05Speaker 01

  I'm like, rent it out. He's like, I won't cash it a lot, maybe a thousand dollars. Cause he's on a 15 year mortgage. I was like, take the thousand, thousand dollars cash flow, use that money to pay down the current home you're in. Have both, because then when you retire, you'll have a rental property that's paid off, that's also producing your income.

• 6:21Speaker 00

  That's good.

• 6:23Speaker 00

  So, by the way, when Neil, you, you called me yesterday and you, you had talked about, um, somebody's agency, right? So I want to talk about the, the hairy part about agency M and A today. Cause last week you had a, you had, we, we had talked about, you know, another thing that I, I brought to you. And then you brought something to me and it was a good price, right? Uh, you know, for the revenue, it was a good price, right? And I, I, I gave you my thoughts around it. And so I want to give my, I want to share my thoughts here without, um, revealing anybody's identity here. So let's say, you know, this, this deal was, uh, let's call it like, you know, they're, they're doing 10 million a year revenue. Okay. Neil's like, okay, you might be able to get this for like a million dollars or something like that. Good deal, right? But my immediate reaction was I spent so much time getting my team AI native this year.

• 7:08Speaker 00

  Right? We talked about the 10 to 55, 60% or whatever it is, and I know how much pain it is. And I am not willing to have to go through that culling, um, right now with this, with this business, right? So there's just a lot of work to do and it's a very people intensive business. And like, hearing from my team today is like, dude, this is what I stayed for, like this moment, like the traction we're, we have now, like, like everyone's like collaborating all that, like, I don't want to bring in a completely different culture and then have to cull and then like ruin their, their time and all that. And so I'd rather just not deal with it. And similar to, to the thing that I brought to Neil, I'm like, hey, you can get this thing over here, you know, maybe you can work something out. And Neil immediately within the first five minutes of talking to that person, he was like, no, you know, I think you should go do a deal over here. Uh, it's just because it's a lot of work, right?

• 7:52Speaker 00

  And so at least for right now, you know, there's, I think what isn't being talked about is the, the, it's really hard to discern. It's not really hard. With these M and A deals, you need to figure out who you actually want to keep and who you don't. And I would say a vast majority of people who are AI pills in a company are, it's very, it's very low.

• 8:10Speaker 01

  I, I'm going to word it in a different way.

• 8:14Speaker 01

  With a lot of deals and transactions, whether you're buying a company or not. Everything comes down to if the juice is worth the squeeze.

• 8:23Speaker 01

  When you start derailing from your main vision, or you have to deal with a new problem that you weren't planned for. If it's worth it and the outcome can be amazing and it can be life-changing for you, it may be worth taking the derailment. But a lot of times, and the example here with the M and A deal that Eric mentioned, when I was looking at it. And I was looking at it on the way when I was driving to Laguna. I randomly called them up, just catching up, because I did a text intro for them. For someone else that could just, that may need their services. And they're telling me how a deal didn't go through that they're trying to do. And I was just like, oh, cool. What's a business? And then, or not what's a business, I knew what the business, I'm like, what are the numbers? They sent me the access to the data room within three hours.

• 9:07Speaker 01

  Team reviewed it really quickly. We quickly learned it wasn't for us. It's not that it's, uh, it's, it's a bad business. I would actually say it's a good business. The problem is, is the amount of time that my team would need to spend to fix that business would cost us way more revenue and profit than if we just focus on our core business. Because of the size and scale of that company. That is why I referred it to Eric. I don't mean that in a bad way. I know the revenue is meaningful for most companies, almost every company. But Eric quickly figured out that revenue, even though it's meaningful. The headache that it creates and the distraction that it creates goes away from where he's trying to take his company in three to five years.

• 9:51Speaker 01

  And he doesn't want to be a quote unquote traditional agency. So he decided to back.

• 9:57Speaker 00

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• 10:31Speaker 01

  Wait for it.

• 10:32Speaker 00

  All right. So I wanted to take a moment to tell you about my podcast co-host Neil's agency called NP Digital. And they work with a whole host of global companies or a global organization. Also Neil has SEO tools such as Uber Suggest and Answer to Public. All you have to do is go to npdigital.com to learn more and we'll see you on the other side.

• 10:52Speaker 01

  And Eric's already done two deals, right? You did two agencies that you already bought?

• 10:57Speaker 00

  Three, if you include single grain.

• 10:58Speaker 01

  Three. Listen to account single grain, but let's count the other two.

• 11:01Speaker 00

  Single grain doesn't really count.

• 11:02Speaker 01

  Single grain was pennies on the dollar.

• 11:03Speaker 00

  Single grain was $2.

• 11:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's why I don't count that.

• 11:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:07Speaker 01

  You still bought it and you had to take on the losses and all the issues.

• 11:10Speaker 00

  That's an example of a hairy situation, right?

• 11:12Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 11:12Speaker 00

  And then like, I wouldn't even blame your, so Neil's cousin was the founder. It's, it's not on Sujan. It was, I, it was not a good situation, but I made it go worse. But that's for a story that I've told before. So listen to an old podcast. Yeah.

• 11:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. And to summarize, Eric learned that you just don't let.

• 11:29Speaker 01

  A lot of people have this style in management where, oh, people made a mistake. They'll learn on their own and they'll get better over time. And Eric quickly learned that that doesn't work for him.

• 11:40Speaker 00

  I want to say it's quick. I took me a while to learn that. Neil learned that lesson quickly.

• 11:43Speaker 01

  I took a while. Very quickly, yeah. But I think it's also personalities and I don't think there's a right or a wrong way. IBM had that philosophy for many years and they're a much bigger company than I am in which people learn from their mistakes. So why would you fire them? Let them keep learning and getting better.

• 11:58Speaker 00

  I don't know about that. There's a whole nother thing I'll talk about in a second, but finish your point.

• 12:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, I've just always been a big believer either good or you suck. If you suck, bye bye. I know that's cutthroat, but it really is a reality for most entrepreneurs. If you're good, great. And if you're not good, but you have potential and it's very obvious. Most organizations are willing to put in the time and energy to make you great. But crappy people who just suck, it is very hard to turn them around because they just don't have potential. There's a lot of them out there.

• 12:25Speaker 00

  I'll just say this, the more cutthroat I've become, and I'm not saying you should be cutthroat, but I'm saying that the tougher I've become, the easier time it's been with business, right?

• 12:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:34Speaker 00

  And like it seems counterintuitive to people listening. You might be younger listening to this right now, but I'm telling you, we have both been young at younger at some point, right? What you're doing is when you're tougher, like if you don't apply pressure, pressure is going to be applied to you. What ends up happening is that if you are able to move someone out quickly, they're able to do their best work somewhere else, right? It's not, and you're also able to help your team too, because your A players want to work with A players. The problem is if you have a bunch of B and C players, the A players have to take on that work and it becomes unfair. And all this resentment starts to build up and there's a lot of pressure that you feel from the company and you don't know what to do, right? You still want to be this like this nice guy. You want to be this, the boss that's cool and all that. It doesn't pay the bills at the end of the day.

• 13:13Speaker 01

  Yes. And one thing to note about A players, Eric sent me a CMO the other day and he's like, you should hire this person.

• 13:22Speaker 01

  Someone's A player could be your B player and your A player could be someone's B player. It doesn't mean your A players are better than someone else's. A lot of it also has to do with cultural fit, your industry, and some people are just a better fit for your company than someone else's company.

• 13:38Speaker 00

  Yep. So by the way, because we're talking about agencies right now, I want to talk about a tale of two agencies, Neil. So we just, you know, we like to test out these contractors for the brand team, right? One is doing well on LinkedIn right now. The first post you put out like 500 comments on it, right? You put out another one today, like 300 comments already, right? And so I'm like, oh, this is pretty cool. Like, you know, I'm like, hey, I'll refer you to like my friends and all that. I like, he, the way this guy operates, so this is a LinkedIn, you know, we'll call them LinkedIn agency, okay? Then another one is like a short form content agency, okay? So this guy, let's talk about this guy over here. He shows up, he's always trying to talk to us inside of Slack. He's always trying to learn about the business, right? He's very AI forward. He's trying all these things. He's only 18 years old, by the way, but he's got a bunch of staff with him already, right? Like he knows his stuff, right?

• 14:21Speaker 00

  So he's proactive, he's very AI forward and he's always trying the newest things, okay? And he's, he's very communicative with us. The other side, the short form agency, which I fired in like a week and I had let them go before, but let them go in a week ago. They're like,

• 14:34Speaker 01

  You let them go. So this is the second time you hired this short form?

• 14:36Speaker 00

  Cause like I believe in the founder, like she's very strong strategically, right? Very good with the short form formatting, like that's important. Like I saw Neil record a video, by the way, recently. You have the SEO, AEO, GEO one. I'm like, Neil has the formats now and that one did really well. I'm like, I'm for sure that one's going to do better than that was. So the formats matter, right? So she knows the formats, like the background. I think she's one of the strongest. So she gives us account manager, cool, right? And then there's an account manager under the account manager, okay? So the account manager is like, oh, you know, uh, we don't, we don't do Slack, you know? And then when we sent them a Riverside link, right? Cause we use Riverside to record stuff like, oh, we don't use Riverside. Can you put it all into Google Drive? And we're like, can you just, one of our guys was like, can you just do it yourself?

• 15:18Speaker 00

  Like you just set up like a thing like, oh no, that's out of scope, blah, blah, blah. And then like this and that. I'm like, at this point, man, like, like what are you even doing? Like as an agency, right? What we do is we help people solve problems. We take things off their plate. Okay. You're putting more and more shit on our plate and then it's coming all the way up to me. And I'm already, I have enough stuff going on. I'm like, how is this even getting to me? I'm just cut it, right? This other guy is just going, growing, growing. We should try this. We should try this. My, my point is the difference between these two is one person that cares and one person that is biased to action and loves learning. The other one, they're not adapting quickly enough and that's what's going to cause a lot more churn. Because I was willing, I was, I referred her to a few other companies.

• 16:04Speaker 00

  And then I had a poker game the other night, right? With a handful of entrepreneurs and they're not going to work with them anymore because they heard of this experience. And so word travels fast too. That's all I'll say.

• 16:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, word travels fast. And because Eric referred her out to a few agency or a few of his friends, he's going to notify them on his experience. Cause he doesn't want his friends to get burned as well.

• 16:22Speaker 00

  Like he's trying to grow his brand. His company does like 160 million a year. That would have been a great client, right? But I referred and I had a bad experience. I can't, I can't keep that referral up anymore.

• 16:32Speaker 01

  Oh, of course. Dude, I got an interesting text from Shiv. You know Shiv, the guy who also owns the agency?

• 16:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, AI, he wrote, Shiv wrote a book called around AI and marketing. Do you remember?

• 16:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, but it was really good. He sent me a text of the same, the same thing.

• 16:46Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 16:47Speaker 01

  It's just a video of me filming in my living room and they made the mirror in the background. They just put some images over it. Uh, and he said, so many Niels, because there's three of me. And he said, your videos are so focused on what you guys sell, still figuring out my strategy. And I learned this one the hard way years and years ago. Don't chase the views, chase the revenue.

• 17:08Speaker 00

  Neil actually learned this during blogging days, like 15 years ago when Neil, when I would read Neil's posts on SEO, but then sometimes he'd have some ones on like his clothes. I spent $600,000 on clothes that I made this. And at my mom's funeral, I think he met, I don't, you met one of my friends. I don't know if he walked up. He's like, hey, I read your post on like, did he walk up to you?

• 17:27Speaker 01

  Uh, I have no idea. So I've had a few of your friends walk up when we were eating dinner in Vegas. One of the girls mentioned about the clothes.

• 17:34Speaker 00

  Yeah. So the, the funny thing is these are not your ICP. These are like my friends from high school and elementary school, right? And then they're like, oh yeah, you know, I'd read Neil's stuff on that, but um, those aren't, to that point, it got, it went wide, but

• 17:47Speaker 01

  It generated zero revenue.

• 17:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:49Speaker 01

  And I, I think that's really important. I think that's really what most people forget. They chase the views and they don't really look at total revenue. Someone just posted something on X, okay? And I didn't respond to it. I've had this

• 18:04Speaker 00

  About you?

• 18:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, about me. And this person posted a comment on one of my posts and they're like, why should I take advice from you? Look at your traffic and your reputation over the years. And more so, they were just using a chart with my traffic. And it was just going down and to the right. So instead of up into the, uh, up into the right, it was going down into the right. So he's pretty much saying like, I've lost most of my traffic and that is spot on. I responded to this years ago when we were in this transition. I used to rank on, on Google for terms like how to get more Instagram followers, got tons of traffic from it. I used to rank on page one for the term Discord, literally Discord, the network, right? And tons of these terms.

• 18:48Speaker 01

  And what I found was I was getting all this traffic and zero revenue from it all. I was also getting leads and a lot of these leads were wasting my salespeople's time. Uh, people calling and be like, hey, my, I want to help my daughter become more popular on Instagram. Can you help us out? And what they would fill in on their budgets and all this kind of stuff in websites wasn't related to what they were asking for. They were just putting the company they worked for and then they would ask us for advice for their daughter or their son who wanted to be Insta famous. We cut all of that out. I focus on my ideal customer, which is a mid to enterprise company. When I say mid, I think everyone's definition is, is a little bit different.

• 19:30Speaker 01

  So for us, like a mid-market company could be doing like, uh, five to $10 billion a year in revenue to enterprise. And ideally they're global and we try to help them with their marketing and a lot of different countries with, you know, their systems, their processes and just help them scale. It drives a lot less traffic. It drives us a lot more revenue. And you know what? Our churn on those customers are four to five X lower. So the business is also more stable from it.

• 20:02Speaker 00

  So here's what I'll say related to that. So I was looking, um, I was talking to, so at the poker game, so Mark Manson creator, right? He creates like a lot of relationship stuff. So he's looking at my Instagram, right? And initially he did an audit, like as we were playing, right? He's like, dude, like, I feel like you're at least three to six months ahead on the AI side. Like every time I see something, right? And then he, so he's like, you know, um, my suggestion for you is like, you need to do more, right? More quantity, right? And I'm like, oh, okay. Yeah. More quantity. And then he starts really analyzing my page. He's like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. He's like, no, you have too much quantity. You need to do less quantity, higher quality, right? Cause he's like, you do know your stuff. And so my whole thing, and by the way, this is an ad for, for, for, for me right now.

• 20:43Speaker 00

  We are looking for a short form strategist. So if you got something, send it over to me, DM it over to me, uh, and we can talk, right? But anyway, so he was saying that I was like, okay, that's interesting. And then the, I'm looking at mine, like, okay, that's what I need to do. And I look at Neil's page because Neil's page in relation to how many followers he has, followers is not the most, the biggest thing. But the average is like, it should be higher, right? And to me, finally, when I saw that, that GEO one where it's GEO, AEO, and there's like three Niels in it, it's like mirror video, right? I'm like, okay, that format, it, everything's about the format, right? Like formats come in and out and that format, I kid you not, I think it was like 31,000 views when I saw it. But most of your other videos were like, I don't know, 5,000, 7, 8,000 views or so. So it's like, a lot of it does come down to short form strategy.

• 21:26Speaker 00

  But to Neil's point, like as long as he, his short form strategist like keeps capitalizing on formats and he keeps covering the right topics. He does generate leads from that too. I've generated good leads from, from Instagram too, but we just, you don't have the time to think about it. I don't have the time to think about it. I was talking to Mark. I was like, how do you do it? I said, oh, I just have a short form strategist that like just gives me this stuff and I just record. I'm like, oh, that's so nice. Right? So.

• 21:50Speaker 01

  The only thing I don't like about recording is people start seeing more of your life. That's the only part I hate about recording.

• 21:58Speaker 00

  I can tell you don't really enjoy recording it.

• 22:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. I also don't like people in my home. I know that sounds a little funky. You is different or no is different, but like, I don't like people in my home trying to record me.

• 22:11Speaker 00

  Usually I get what you mean. You like your friends at your place. You don't like, you know?

• 22:16Speaker 01

  Strangers, but also I don't want to go to a studio to record. So it's just easier for people to come to my house.

• 22:22Speaker 00

  There's no solutions, only trade-offs.

• 22:24Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 22:25Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 22:26Speaker 01

  Cause I'm like, man, then I gotta drive. I, I know these are first world problems and laziness, but it's easier for people to just come to my house.

• 22:31Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, good thing, good thing Neil's here. Uh, this makes it easier for me. So we hope you enjoyed that one. If you want more case studies like this, let us know and we'll see you tomorrow.