#255 – Mark Normand: Comedy!

Mark Normand is a stand-up comedian. Please support this podcast by checking out our sponsors: – Calm: https://calm.com/lex to get 40% off – InsideTracker: https://insidetracker.com/lex and use code Lex25 to get 25% off – Onnit: https://lexfridman.com/onnit to get up to 10% off – Grammarly: https://grammarly.com/lex to get 20% off premium – ROKA: https://roka.com/ and use code LEX to get 20% off your first order EPISODE LINKS: Mark’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/marknorm Mark’s YouTube: https://youtube.com/c/marknormand Out to Lunch (special): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDolNU89SXI The Standups: Season 3 (Netflix): https://www.netflix.com/title/80175685 PODCAST INFO: Podcast website: https://lexfridman.com/podcast Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/2lwqZIr Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2nEwCF8 RSS: https://lexfridman.com/feed/podcast/ YouTube Full Episodes: https://youtube.com/lexfridman YouTube Clips: https://youtube.com/lexclips SUPPORT & CONNECT: – Check out the sponsors above, it’s the best way to support this podcast – Support on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/lexfridman – Twitter: https://twitter.com/lexfridman – Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lexfridman – LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lexfridman – Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/lexfridman – Medium: https://medium.com/@lexfridman OUTLINE: Here’s the timestamps for the episode. On some podcast players you should be able to click the timestamp to jump to that time. (00:00) – Introduction (08:45) – Love (11:51) – Childhood in New Orleans (26:37) – New York (35:11) – LA vs NY (44:25) – Advice for new comedians (58:57) – Crafting jokes (1:00:59) – Norm Macdonald (1:08:32) – Favorite medium (1:12:43) – Austin (1:19:04) – Sending people to space (1:20:37) – Robots with human emotion (1:24:08) – Self-driving vehicles (1:28:15) – Future of human interaction (1:32:22) – Advice for young people (1:36:22) – Rapid random questions (1:54:09) – Meaning of life

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Lex Fridman?

  The following is a conversation with Mark Normand, a New York comedian who has a way with words that is often both dark and hilarious. Let there be a warning, dear friends, to proceed with caution and to wear protection. You may, in fact, need it. He has a special on his YouTube called Out to Lunch and a new special on Netflix as part of the stand-up season three series I recommend you watch. And now, a quick two-second mention of his sponsors. Check them out in the description. It's the best way to support this podcast. First is Calm, a meditation app. Second is InsideTracker, a service I use to track my biological data. Third is Onnit, a nutrition, supplement, and fitness company.

• 0:43Lex Fridman?

  Fourth is Grammarly, a service I use to check spelling, grammar, and readability. And fifth is Roka, my favorite sunglasses and prescription glasses. So, the choice is health, eloquence, or style. Choose wisely, my friends. And now, onto the full ad reads. As always, no ads in the middle. I try to make these interesting, but if you skip them, please still check out the sponsors. I enjoy their stuff. Maybe you will, too. This show is brought to you by Calm, a meditation and mental wellness app. Over 100 million people around the world use Calm to take care of their minds. You may hear in my voice a bit of a melancholy tone. I've been going through some rough times.

• 1:28Lex Fridman?

  That's how life is. There's ups and downs. Sometimes it's just even throughout the day, hour to hour, minute to minute, and you've just got to ride it. Sometimes, during a bit of the low times, you have to do an ad read, like I'm doing now. And it's all okay. It's all great. And I think guided meditation, meditation in general, is a great way to reflect on that up and down of life, to breathe, to find yourself, to find your breath, to find your mind, in the time of trouble, in the time of chaos, in the time of sadness, in the time of ecstatic bliss.

• 2:10Lex Fridman?

  To find a calmness. Anyway, if you go to calm.com/lex, you get a limited time offer 40% off a Calm Premium subscription, which includes hundreds of hours of programming. Once again, that's calm.com/lex. Calm like C A L M dot com slash lex. This show is also brought to you by InsideTracker, a service I use to track biological data. They have a bunch of plans, most of which include a blood test that give you a lot of information that you can then make decisions based on. They have algorithms that analyze your blood data, DNA data, and fitness tracker data to provide you with a clear picture of what's going on

• 2:51Lex Fridman?

  inside you and offer you science-backed recommendations for positive diet and lifestyle changes. Andrew Huberman talks a lot about it. He uses it. He recommends it. David Sinclair as well. They actually had a conversation together recently on the Huberman Lab Podcast that you should definitely listen to. Anyway, in terms of InsideTracker, I love this idea. It feels like the future. Why the heck would you be making decisions for your lifestyle, for your health, based on kind of generic population data? It should be based on your unique longitudinal data measured over time. It's obvious. And it's sad that it's not done widespread. And it's obvious to me that it's going to be done in the future. So InsideTracker

• 3:34Lex Fridman?

  is the right tool to sort of step into the future with. For a limited time, you can get 25% off the entire InsideTracker store if you go to insidetracker.com/lex. That's insidetracker.com/lex. This episode is brought to you by Onnit, nutrition, supplement, and fitness company. They make AlphaBrain, which is a nootropic that helps support memory, mental speed, and focus. I use it as a boost when thinking through a difficult problem when

• 4:06Lex Fridman?

  Stepping into a deep work session. And I know it's going to be an especially, whether it's design, whether it's programming, whether it's thinking through a difficult problem. If I know it's going to be a rough one. And by rough, I mean, there's a lot of dead ends. We have to go down a particular trajectory. And then there's going to be a dead end. You have to backtrack that. That's just such a frustrating process. So to maintain focus, to maintain clarity of thinking and a patience. It's, it just helps me to take an AlphaBrain in those cases. I don't rely on it. I take it when I need that extra super boost. Clears the mind, helps maintain focus. Anyway, go to lexfridman.com/onit

• 4:50Lex Fridman?

  to get up to 10% off AlphaBrain. That's lexfridman.com/onit. This show is brought to you by Grammarly, a writing assistant tool that checks spelling, grammar, sentence structure, and readability. Grammarly Premium, the version you pay for, and the one they really hope you sign up for, offers a bunch of extra features. My favorite is a clarity check, which helps detect rambling, overcomplicated chaos that many of us can descend to. Whenever I mention this part, I usually love to bring up James Joyce, one of the greatest writers of the 20th century, the author of Ulysses and Finnegan's Wake,

• 5:30Lex Fridman?

  both books that I've read and understood none of. In contrast, the short stories by James Joyce, I think it's called The Dead. So The Dead is the final short story in the book of short stories that's called The Dead. Those are understandable and those are brilliant. One of my favorite short stories ever is The Dead. I should probably talk about it at some point. It has love, it has jealousy. It is that melancholy feeling when you ponder the passing of all the millions of lives around you, plus nature. Something about snow and pausing to reflect on life in a melancholy way.

• 6:14Lex Fridman?

  Robert Frost with the stopping in the woods on a snowy evening. Is that the right name?

• 6:23Lex Fridman?

  Miles to go before I sleep. Miles to go before I sleep. I remember spending quite a long time interpreting that poem. It's a powerful one. Anyway, Grammarly is available on basically any platform and major sites and apps. Do more than just spell check. Get your point across more effectively like Robert Frost versus James Joyce with Grammarly Premium. Get 20% off Grammarly Premium by signing up at grammarly.com/lex. That's 20% off at grammarly.com/lex. This show is also brought to you by Roka, the makers of glasses and sunglasses that I love wearing for their design, feel, and innovation on material optics and grips.

• 7:08Lex Fridman?

  But most importantly is that they're super sexy. Function is one thing, but sex appeal is another. Roka was started by two All-American swimmers from Stanford and was born out of an obsession with performance. Two words I love, obsession and performance. I actually met one of said swimmers, Rob. They have an amazing facility here in Austin. He's an incredible human being, just, I don't know, one of those people that just brings a smile to your face, so much energy, also is just a fun person to work out with. He can just really push you to your limit. Anyway, the sunglasses are designed to be active in. They're extremely lightweight.

• 7:52Lex Fridman?

  The grip is comfortable but strong, and the style is classy. So it holds up in all conditions when I'm wearing a suit or wearing running gear in extreme heat or in the cold, I guess you can say, but it's not really a winter compared to Boston winter, but holds up in all conditions. Check them out for both prescription glasses and sunglasses at roka.com and enter code Lex to save 20% off on your first order. That's roka.com and enter code Lex. This is the Lex Frehman Podcast, and here is my conversation with Mark Normand.

• 8:45Lex Fridman?

  I asked Tim Dillon about Bukowski first, so let me continue on that tradition and ask you about something that Charles Bukowski said about love.

• 8:53Speaker 01

  Wait, are we rolling?

• 8:55Lex Fridman?

  Yes.

• 8:55Speaker 01

  Oh geez, no hello, no nothing.

• 8:57Lex Fridman?

  Nope.

• 8:58Speaker 01

  I thought I was robotic.

• 9:00Lex Fridman?

  Bukowski said, "Love is a fog that burns away with the first daylight of reality." So, Mark Normand, let me first ask you about love.

• 9:11Lex Fridman?

  What are your thoughts about love? You talk about your relationships quite a bit. Do you think love can last?

• 9:16Speaker 01

  I do, but I think it's work. Everybody wants love to be this prepackaged, perfect, euphoric thing, but you gotta... It's like a good body, you know? We're all born with a good body, but you gotta keep it in shape. And it's the same with a loving relationship.

• 9:35Lex Fridman?

  I think you, uh...

• 9:36Speaker 01

  Nobody wants to do the work, that's the problem.

• 9:39Lex Fridman?

  You talked about, I think you told a story about being unfaithful to a previous girlfriend or something like that. I think the story goes that you were like drifting apart. Who were you talking to? Burt Kreischer, maybe, or something like that?

• 9:53Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, we were high school sweethearts, dated for like 12 years and then...

• 9:58Lex Fridman?

  So that wasn't love anymore? That was more like a relationship, that was like...

• 10:00Speaker 01

  It was comfort, it was routine. And we just slipped into that kind of married life autopilot world and, uh...

• 10:09Speaker 01

  I tried to break up, I think, and it didn't take. It was one of those things. Our lives are just so baked in. And then I think I cheated and she caught me and it was ugly. And then we went to therapy to try to work it out, but it's much like a car that gets into a wreck, the door just never closes the same. You know what I mean?

• 10:29Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. So what are your thoughts about then, um, commitment? Like outside of love, marriage?

• 10:35Speaker 01

  I think it's an antiquated idea. I think it's kind of silly and unrealistic. And I think we're coming out of that as we get all polyamorous and non-binary and queefy and all this stuff. I think we're slowly moving away from that, but I think a lot of the ladies, more majority women like marriage, like the idea of it. Like I'm in a, I'm a fiance now, or whatever you call it. I'm engaged. And I mean, she is just woo wee, going hog wild. She's loving it. She's got the dress thing, pick a venue, flower, and she's, she's deep in, whereas I feel guilty because I'm just like, ah geez.

• 11:13Lex Fridman?

  Is it planned already? When's the wedding?

• 11:15Speaker 01

  You see Squid Game? I'm just living life. Uh, yeah. It's, it's planned. It's in New Orleans. I'm from there. And it's next year. Are you married?

• 11:26Lex Fridman?

  No, single.

• 11:27Speaker 01

  Virgin?

• 11:28Lex Fridman?

  Of course, yeah.

• 11:29Speaker 01

  I can't imagine. I bet you'd be great in bed. You're ripped. You have the best hairline in podcasting.

• 11:34Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, I don't know. I haven't tried yet, so we'll have to see.

• 11:37Speaker 01

  All right. Well, let me know. Pretty big hog on you? Yeah, I could see you packing a crazy, crazy tool downtown.

• 11:46Lex Fridman?

  That matters to girls?

• 11:47Speaker 01

  Apparently, yeah. That's all I hear about.

• 11:50Lex Fridman?

  Okay, New Orleans. You grew up in New Orleans?

• 11:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, born and raised. Trame, outside the French Quarter. You ever been?

• 11:57Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. Don't remember it.

• 11:59Speaker 01

  Oh, you drink?

• 12:00Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, I drink. Of course I drink.

• 12:02Speaker 01

  I don't know. I can't tell if you have fun.

• 12:04Lex Fridman?

  No, not really. But Russian, I mean Russian, of course I drink vodka, all that kind of stuff.

• 12:08Speaker 01

  Oh, right, you're Russian.

• 12:09Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 12:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 12:10Lex Fridman?

  I don't know.

• 12:11Speaker 01

  Beer was just labeled an alcoholic beverage in 2011. Fun fact.

• 12:15Lex Fridman?

  What do you mean?

• 12:16Speaker 01

  In Russia. It was just drinks. It was just like apple juice before. It finally got declared legally as an alcoholic beverage.

• 12:25Lex Fridman?

  Which means you can regulate it, that kind of thing?

• 12:27Speaker 01

  I guess so.

• 12:28Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 12:29Speaker 01

  See, that's where your brain goes.

• 12:30Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 12:30Speaker 01

  I just go, oh, these fucking Ruskies are...

• 12:32Lex Fridman?

  I didn't even know there was rules about drinking. Good. I'm learning about Russia from you. So, um, what's a difficult memory, experience from childhood in New Orleans that, uh, made you?

• 12:45Lex Fridman?

  The man you are today.

• 12:47Speaker 01

  Hmm, I don't know if it made me the man, but geez. I had a lot of scuffles in the neighborhood with, I was the white kid in the neighborhood. So I was automatically the odd man out, the minority, the weirdo, the dork, the dweeb, the honky. So, uh, just a lot of memories of like getting slapped in the face by guys and just having to take it. Cause there's like five guys there and they'd be like, oh, look, you don't even fight back. And you're like, what am I gonna do? Hit you and then get beat up by these guys? So a lot of that stuff was a big bummer growing up. Got robbed all the time, lost a lot of bicycles, had a bicycle taken from under me. That was pretty brutal.

• 13:28Speaker 01

  Uh, these kids pulled up, you know, they're like 17 and I was 13 and I had a face paint on. Like I had a, not blackface, but I was at a summer camp and I had a rainbow face painted on me. We were helping kids that day. So I let them put paint on me. And, uh, so now I'm riding home, what a mark, what a, what a goober I am. I'm riding home and these guys see me a mile away. I'm a sitting duck and they go, we can take his bike. He's got a fucking rainbow on his cheek. So, uh, they just go, hey, you know, like, cut in front of you. They go, let me try your bike. I go, I'm good, I'm good. I knew what they wanted. And, uh, they go, let me try the bike. And then they just pushed me and took the bike. So stuff like that was really, uh, shaping the insecurity, the self-worth.

• 14:14Lex Fridman?

  Did it, uh, cause I've been mugged when I was younger too.

• 14:18Speaker 01

  Really?

• 14:19Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, it changes your view of human nature a little bit.

• 14:22Speaker 01

  For sure. You go, wow, I didn't know people could be this mean, this cool.

• 14:27Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 14:27Speaker 01

  Inconsiderate. I'm, I'm always worried about it. Did I fart too much? Am I annoying? Uh, am I pissing this guy off? But what a way to live, just, I want the bike, I'm taking it. Fuck his feelings.

• 14:39Lex Fridman?

  For me, that quickly turned into, um, realizing that that's just a temporary phase that those folks are in. Like they, there's, they have a capacity to be good.

• 14:49Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 14:49Lex Fridman?

  For some reason, for me, that was a motivation to see, can we discover, can, can we incentivize them to find like a better path in life? Like I, I wasn't like all like, I don't know, Gandhi about it. You know, of course I was pissed and all those kinds of things, but I don't know, it seemed. Like, just the kind of thing you might do when you're younger.

• 15:12Speaker 01

  You hope, but this is adult crime, obviously.

• 15:17Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, I know. But yeah, exactly. And then it solidifies and then you're beyond saving at some point. But it's like, there's always, there's always an opportunity to, uh, to make a better, uh, life for yourself, to, to become a better version of yourself.

• 15:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I remember coming home crying with no bike and my mom, she's, my parents are like liberal to a fault.

• 15:38Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 15:39Speaker 01

  You know, where they were like, oh, well, they need it. They're poor kids in the neighborhood. And you're like, all right. But I, I also like, I have a bicycle that, uh, I ride around, you know? And I also like to live in an area that's not just, you know, riddled with, uh, theft and vandalism. But they were just like, ah, they need it. And then it was a, it was a moot point. We just moved on. So I remember very young being like, all right, I gotta figure my shit out.

• 16:02Lex Fridman?

  Okay. So you, you said you were beat up quite a bit, like bullying and stuff?

• 16:06Speaker 01

  Pushed around. I was never hospitalized or anything, but you know, you get a black eye here and there and a bloody nose, stuff like that. And it was just the outnumbered thing. The violence didn't really bother me because you're just kids, you're boys.

• 16:19Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 16:19Speaker 01

  But it was the predatory, let's get him, you know, we can take him down. He's, you know, he's an easy target. That's what kills you.

• 16:28Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 16:28Speaker 01

  The mental part.

• 16:31Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. You know, until you actually said it, I didn't realize, because I've, I've been in, what do you call them? Scuffles?

• 16:37Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 16:38Lex Fridman?

  And, uh, there was just one that stands out to me where, yeah.

• 16:41Speaker 01

  Let's hear it, fatty. Bring it on. And you do jujitsu and all that stuff, right? Yeah. You can see the guns through the suit. You're like John Wick.

• 16:49Lex Fridman?

  All right.

• 16:50Speaker 01

  All right.

• 16:51Lex Fridman?

  Well, I used to have, now you're gonna start making fun of me. I used to have long hair for, for like a couple of years. I was in a band playing music and stuff like that. And there was, um, like, most of the fights I've been in were basically one-on-one, maybe a little bit like, a little extra stuff, but not outnumbered. And this one particular time. I've learned a lot of lessons, but one of them was I, there was a fight started between me and this other person. And then his buddies, I guess, were there.

• 17:20Speaker 01

  Uh oh.

• 17:21Lex Fridman?

  And they, as opposed to like breaking it up or letting it happen, um, one of them grabbed my hair.

• 17:28Speaker 01

  Ooh.

• 17:28Lex Fridman?

  It's the first time anybody grabbed, like, used my hair in a fight, which I've since then realized that that's actually a really powerful grip and a powerful weapon.

• 17:36Speaker 01

  Oh, very vulnerable of you.

• 17:38Lex Fridman?

  And then my, uh, head got pulled back and they pulled me down to the ground. Like, I couldn't do anything. It was so, I remember being exceptionally frustrated.

• 17:46Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 17:46Lex Fridman?

  That was the feeling, like, I can't do anything here. I'm like trapped. And then they, they were just like, yeah, kicking me and hitting me and stuff like that. And the outnumbered part of it, um, cause I always kind of remember the trapped part because I just hated from a fighting grappling perspective, how like, like the feeling was this isn't fair.

• 18:07Speaker 01

  Yes, that's what it is. It's a deep, deep unfairness.

• 18:11Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 18:11Speaker 01

  That you just can't, you can't win. The mob wins.

• 18:14Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, the mob wins.

• 18:16Speaker 01

  Scary stuff. And, but it makes, uh, makes a man out of you in a weird way. It builds character. You realize life isn't fair early and you, you go on from there.

• 18:23Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 18:24Speaker 01

  So there's something there. And look at you today. They're probably, uh, you know, eating out of a dumpster at a Krispy Kreme and you're here, got eight podcasts, you're, you're doing great. Talking to giant titans of the industry.

• 18:35Lex Fridman?

  No, I, I do remember returning home that night. I mean, that, you said you were crying. That's really formative. Like,

• 18:42Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 18:43Lex Fridman?

  That's the point at which you get to decide, what do I make of this moment? I mean, especially when you're younger, maybe it's not presented to you that way, but like, some of the greatest people in history were bullied in these kinds of ways. And they made something of themselves in this moment, like bullied by life in some kind of way. It's a, it's like an opportunity for growth. It's, um, it's weird, but like hardship, even in small doses, is like an opportunity for growth.

• 19:09Speaker 01

  Totally. I mean, look at Richard Pryor. They say he's labeled as the best comedian of all time. Grew up in a whorehouse, watched his mom get plowed by these guys in, in the middle of Indiana, I want to say. And, uh, just who had a harder life? He would suck dick for drugs, all this stuff, growing up, beat up. And then the weird thing is, oops, sorry, that's my birth control alarm. And then the, uh, the whole world is like trying to get rid of bullying. But we still do bullying, but now it's accepted bullying. It's very strange.

• 19:39Lex Fridman?

  So you're, uh, you're a proponent of beating kids up? Is that what you said?

• 19:42Speaker 01

  Yes, and sex with them.

• 19:44Lex Fridman?

  All right.

• 19:46Speaker 01

  But no, uh, I just think it's part of life and it's horrible. It is, it's like rain. You gotta have it. Look, a rainy day is a bummer, you know, but you need it. And, uh, I think it's similar to that.

• 19:58Lex Fridman?

  What, what was your relationship like with your, uh, your mom, your dad? Well, what are some memorable moments with them? What did you learn from them?

• 20:05Speaker 01

  Good parents, they're giving, thoughtful, uh,

• 20:11Speaker 01

  a little out to lunch, you know, they were workaholics. So there was, it was hard to get a lot out of them. And my dad was kind of an angry dad. I think he just had like a weird childhood and he's just trying to make it. And he's trying to provide, but it's hard. And we live in this horrible neighborhood and we're getting robbed all the time. Um, so life was kind of coming down on him all the time. So then he'll take it out on you or whoever he would snap. But great parents, they cared, they put us first. Um, but there wasn't a lot of,

• 20:44Speaker 01

  I don't know, you see, you know, you ever go to a friend's house as a kid? And there's like a picture of a ski trip and you're like, ski trip? What the hell is that about? You know, it wasn't out of that and smart, very smart people, but I don't know how well they were at, uh, socializing.

• 20:58Lex Fridman?

  So you never like bonded with them like on a deep human level?

• 21:02Speaker 01

  There was some bonding, but rarely deep. Yeah, it was just, you know, almost coworker. Hey, cold out, huh?

• 21:08Lex Fridman?

  What?

• 21:09Speaker 01

  It's cold out, huh?

• 21:10Lex Fridman?

  Oh yeah, like that kind of stuff?

• 21:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 21:12Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, yeah, I got you.

• 21:13Speaker 01

  Get there a little bit, but it, my parents are, and I hope they never say this, but they would do a thing where my dad especially would do a thing where he would, uh, he knew how to cut you down right to the bone. And so after a while you're like, I'm not even gonna interact with this guy cause he, he can get you so well. One time we were at a, uh, like a Thanksgiving, some kind of family of event. And all the cousins are there and I remember I was holding court. I was a young boy finding my comedic legs in this weird tumultuous sea we call a family. And I was killing. And, um, my dad comes up and he goes, what are you holding court? And I was like, ah, and I felt like I was this big. I just, woo, shrunk down. He just nailed it. Cause in my head, I'm like, I'm holding court. Look at me. I got the whole room.

• 21:56Speaker 01

  And he goes, what are you, what are you holding court here? And I'm like, who the hell do you think you are? And I was like, he's right. I shouldn't be holding court. Who the fuck am I? I'm nobody. So, uh, stuff like that.

• 22:06Lex Fridman?

  Was he aware of that, you think?

• 22:07Speaker 01

  He wasn't. He wasn't. I don't think he was, but.

• 22:10Lex Fridman?

  Do you, do you give, um, parents a pass when they're unaware?

• 22:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:15Lex Fridman?

  Of the destructive, like, is it better when they're unaware? Cause it seems like that's the way.

• 22:20Speaker 01

  That's true.

• 22:21Lex Fridman?

  That's way, the way parents often fail is they're not intentionally malevolent. They're just like clueless.

• 22:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's, it's a bittersweet thing. Cause you're like, well, okay, he's not malicious. He's not trying to hurt me, but also he doesn't know he hurt me. I, I don't know. It's, it's tough. Cause if he was trying to hurt you, I guess that would be worse.

• 22:44Lex Fridman?

  So you're the fully baked Mark Norman cake at this point. Uh, what?

• 22:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a shitty cake.

• 22:52Lex Fridman?

  Do you, um?

• 22:53Speaker 01

  Fruit salad.

• 22:54Lex Fridman?

  You know, the sense of self-worth you mentioned.

• 22:59Lex Fridman?

  I think in your comedy, there's a sense like you hate yourself.

• 23:02Speaker 01

  You think?

• 23:02Lex Fridman?

  When I listen.

• 23:03Speaker 01

  I didn't know if that came through. Shit, I was trying to hide that part. God damn it.

• 23:07Lex Fridman?

  I mean, when you like, in the privacy of your own mind, are you able to love yourself? Or is it mostly self-hate?

• 23:16Speaker 01

  Jeez. What happened to this podcast? I didn't know I was on, uh, Mr. Or Dr. Phil.

• 23:20Lex Fridman?

  Dr. Phil.

• 23:21Speaker 01

  I thought we were gonna talk about engineering and, and climate change and rockets.

• 23:25Lex Fridman?

  Uh, we'll get there.

• 23:27Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 23:27Lex Fridman?

  Starts with love, goes to rockets.

• 23:29Speaker 01

  All right. I like that. I like, that's a T-shirt. Um.

• 23:34Lex Fridman?

  I mean, like.

• 23:34Speaker 01

  What's the question? Sorry.

• 23:37Speaker 01

  Do I feel love?

• 23:38Lex Fridman?

  No, no, like, uh.

• 23:39Speaker 01

  Do I love myself?

• 23:40Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, yeah. So are you, um?

• 23:44Lex Fridman?

  Like this engine of being self-critical, of just being constantly anxious about how the world perceives you, these kinds of things, is this something that you just go to for comedy? Or is this who you are as a human being?

• 23:59Speaker 01

  I think I don't want to explore it. I think I get around it. You know, I tap dance around it, but I get it out a little with my act, maybe. Because I can't do it. I'm not doing it in real life. So I'll get out this no love, not loving myself. I don't know. Who wants to love themselves? Everybody always like, you gotta love yourself. And then when you meet somebody who does love yourself, you're like, I fucking hate this guy. You hate the guy who's upset. I'm great. I'm awesome. Life is good. You're like, ah, this guy sucks. I'd rather an insecure guy. So maybe I want to stay insecure. Maybe I don't want to find this love for myself.

• 24:32Lex Fridman?

  Well, okay, so self-love, like just appreciating who you are, like appreciating the moment, or being grateful, doesn't have to express itself by the guy saying, I'm awesome.

• 24:44Speaker 01

  True.

• 24:44Lex Fridman?

  It's more just like humility, just like walking calmly through the world and just being grateful to be alive, that kind of thing. And just

• 24:50Speaker 01

  That's good.

• 24:51Lex Fridman?

  And like, oh, being appreciative of all the accomplishments you made so far. I say all this because mostly I'm extremely self-critical in everything I do.

• 24:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:59Lex Fridman?

  And so, and I kind of enjoy it. I think it's a nice little engine that it makes it fun. It makes life fun. Because it's like, if you hate everything you do, like you've done in the past, that gives you like, all right, we could do better.

• 25:15Speaker 01

  Yes. But that's the key, is making it self-critical, always trying to get better. I could change this. I could tweak this. I could improve this. When you just go, I hate that I do this. I suck. You just shut down. So that's the key is, is always being productive with the, with the criticism.

• 25:30Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. And the basics of life, I'm just like grateful for it, to be alive. That's nice to be a couple, couple that with

• 25:36Speaker 01

  Two legs. Again, the hairline, the hog, the muscles, the, the, the world. You got a good brain on you. I mean, you're, you're lucky. You're in the top, you know, most people are fat as shit at Burger King right now, hitting their kids.

• 25:50Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 25:50Speaker 01

  You're in a Ramada Hotel, sitting with the, you know, a low-level comedian.

• 25:56Lex Fridman?

  For the record, I ate McDonald's last night.

• 25:58Speaker 01

  Oh, all right. Well, you're human.

• 26:01Lex Fridman?

  Well, just so you know, this is not me defending. I'm not sponsored by McDonald's, but I mostly eat meat and there's nothing wrong with the beef they have. It's actually one of the easiest ways late at night.

• 26:13Speaker 01

  I think it's worse. I don't know if it's actually.

• 26:15Lex Fridman?

  It's actually rats. Yeah, you're right.

• 26:18Speaker 01

  But hey, it's just meat. I'm a meat guy myself. They say in 20 years, we're going to look back and go, can you believe people ate meat? It's gonna look like somebody like slavery.

• 26:27Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, there's some ethical, difficult things with factory farming.

• 26:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, so let's ride it out now while we still got it.

• 26:35Lex Fridman?

  And now it's on record. Tom Waits says something about New York. You like Tom Waits?

• 26:41Speaker 01

  I think he's underrated. I think he's got great, he's got a great, he's great at quips and quotes. Check him out on YouTube. He's got some montages and supercuts of him being hilarious.

• 26:52Lex Fridman?

  What does he say about, um, I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.

• 26:59Speaker 01

  That was the one. That was the one that sold me. I was like, this guy's awesome.

• 27:02Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, but his music, he's just a genius musician.

• 27:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:06Lex Fridman?

  Anyway, he was talking about New York. I was walking around these, I'm in New York right now. We're in New York right now. It's still a magical city to me. A lot of people are quite cynical about it, about the state of things, but not like Michael Malice, like a lot of friends of mine, they're just, a lot of folks, I mean, San Francisco, New York, there's something about the pandemic where people have become quite cynical about the place they are and they tried to escape. It's interesting. I mean, they're asking some difficult questions about where they are in life. They're having like a self-imposed midlife crisis. It's good, I think, for everybody to go through this process. But I think, I hope New York reemerges.

• 27:44Speaker 01

  It will.

• 27:45Lex Fridman?

  As the flourishing place for the weirdos. Anyway, the Tom Waits said, "New York, of course, is to be in endless surreal situations where a $50,000 gunmetal Mercedes pulls up in a puddle of blood and outsteps a 25 karat blonde with a $2 wristwatch." And he goes, he keeps going on. So like, it's like, um,

• 28:07Speaker 01

  That's like bars. He's like a rapper.

• 28:09Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, he's good. But basically, just the absurdity of it all. Lots of money, lots of weirdos, degenerates and dreamers and the whole, the whole mix of it. Do you think, um, do you think that's an accurate description of what New York is today? Like, is there still place for the weirdos and just the interesting artists? The, the edgy, the comedians, the, the creators, the, the, the entrepreneurs, like, as opposed to like Wall Street, as opposed to like rich folk and then like hopeless folk?

• 28:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it's definitely changed a lot. There's a, there's a tiny corner for us weirdo artists. New York used to be where you went to make it as a painter or whatever, a comedian or a singer. And there were all these dives and shitboxes and all these places you could go. And now there's, now it's more Pink Berries and Subway sandwiches and Chase Banks. So it's definitely lost a lot of its creative edge. It's just money. Money keeps coming in. And now you see all these comedians move to Nashville, Austin, Denver, whatever. So, uh, it doesn't have the, the power it used to have of like, you gotta be here if you want to make it. That's definitely gone. Uh, so that hurt the city a lot. The city is, is way more soulless.

• 29:32Speaker 01

  When I moved here in oh seven, I mean, not only did I get mugged three times in the first year, but it was a hub of like, it felt like things were happening here, you know? It was, it was an energy. It was electricity and we still have the electricity, but it's also maybe just because it's Times Square, there's Soho, there's, uh, Wall Street. So we got the staples, but there is a little bit of that. It's almost like a marriage. Like, yeah, we're in love, but it, it's not as passionate as it once was. That's how I would equate New York.

• 30:00Lex Fridman?

  What gives you hope? You're pretty hopeful about it, though.

• 30:03Speaker 01

  I'm hopeful just because I know it's magical and I, and I think it has to be. I mean, it's the epicenter of America. Like, this is where the immigrants came. And this is where the stock market is and the entertainment industry, a lot of it is here. So. I think it's it's gonna happen, but it something like the bottom has to fall out. And then people have to move back here and all that. So something. The corporations are kind of fucking us. They're just buying everything.

• 30:30Lex Fridman?

  Well, that's true for everything.

• 30:31Speaker 01

  That's true for everything.

• 30:32Lex Fridman?

  This is true for Austin probably as well. People are just buying out land and all that kind of stuff.

• 30:36Speaker 01

  You always hear a Hemingway and Dali and all these guys went to Paris. In the twenties or whatever that was. Yeah, I get it now. I used to be like, why do these guys go to Paris? You know, why do these? Artists and now I get it because it's like. It's freer there. That's why Austin became like that Paris where everybody's like, I gotta get out of LA. I'm going there. And uh. Maybe, but we came back from that, you know, the seventies were wild and nineties were cool. So maybe it'll come back. Might just take a decade.

• 31:05Lex Fridman?

  Well, there's always, that's how stories are told. There's always pockets of. Like Paris within New York, right?

• 31:12Speaker 01

  True, true.

• 31:13Lex Fridman?

  There's just an opportunity to. Let your weird flourish is there in New York, I'm sure. There, I mean, um.

• 31:21Speaker 01

  It's there. You gotta find it. Before it was front and center.

• 31:25Lex Fridman?

  What's your favorite thing about New York? Like what, what kind of? Things just like.

• 31:31Speaker 01

  I mean, how long is this pod? I could go on. It's just, it's too much to. To put into one hour. We've got other questions, but. I love that one neighborhood is wildly different than the next. I'm in Little Italy and then you take four steps. Now I'm in Chinatown. I mean, and then the history there and then the stories and the food and the culture and all that. And then you go 10 feet over here. Now you're in Brooklyn and this is insane. It's a whole nother world and it's, it's almost like a little America in one. You know, uh, city and it's great. And uh, just the fact that they pulled it off like.

• 32:07Speaker 01

  Fifth Avenue goes way up and you're like, there's a billionaire's house next to a hobo. And then this is a black guy who's, who's fighting with a Cuban guy and an Asian guy is uh, trying to get in the middle of them and the cabbies from uh, the Middle East and. There's so many beautiful women here and there's so many brilliant minds here and and the pace is great. It keeps you all moving. I mean, it just, you can't beat it. And the city will fuck you in the ass, too. Don't get me wrong. You landed JFK and you're like, oh, God, I got mugged. My uh, my Uber driver called me a homo. Uh, I stepped in in human shit. Where the fuck am I? Um, so yeah, it's it's bad news, but that bad news, it's almost like the bullying. It kills you in a weird way, but it makes you stronger and you build more layers and layers and layers.

• 32:49Speaker 01

  That's why some new guy, some hayseed from Milwaukee shows up. You've been here 10 years and you go, let me, let me help you out. Cause uh, you're you, you gotta adjust. You're gonna get your ass kicked for like six months. But I know the rope's a little and uh, I think you need a little of that. If the treadmill's not on,

• 33:08Speaker 01

  you're not gonna run. New York, the treadmill's on, so it just makes you run and it makes you better. And look, it wears on you. You probably lose 10 years of your life living in New York versus uh, you know, Indianapolis. But it's a, you know, it's a better life.

• 33:21Lex Fridman?

  Have you seen 25th Hour?

• 33:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:23Lex Fridman?

  With Ed Norton?

• 33:24Speaker 01

  It's been a while. Um. Spike Lee joint?

• 33:26Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, Spike Lee joint. I mean, uh, Ed Norton, there's a, there's a whole like monologue there about New York.

• 33:33Speaker 01

  Oh, that's right.

• 33:34Lex Fridman?

  They're talking about just, he he has like a mix. It's, there's like melancholy music, I think, or just a melancholy feel to the whole thing. But there's an anger and a disgust with the city. But through the anger and the disgust comes out like a a love for the city. Same with, was Taxi Driver in New York?

• 33:52Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. It's crazy.

• 33:54Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, so like that, there's something about, what is that? What is that, that, that grit of the city that like pushes you down?

• 34:05Speaker 01

  Well, that's the beauty of the city is it's this tribal, human nature, like the sex shops and fistfights and racism and all this tension. But yet it's the epicenter of technology and finance and sophistication on 5th Avenue. So you get that. Juxtaposition. It's kinda like in Boston. You go to Boston, they got MIT, they got Harvard, they got all this shit. And then they got the fishermen, the blue collar douchebags, the Irish guy, the immigrants, you know? And you get that mix of like insanely smart with wicked pissah and these, these two worlds. And that's, that's a good thing. It's like when a black guy fucks an Asian lady, that's a good looking kid.

• 34:44Speaker 01

  You get a mix, you know, we're mixing two totally different things are coming together and it makes it, it's like peanut butter and chocolate.

• 34:52Lex Fridman?

  Peanut butter and chocolate. I've never tried that.

• 34:54Speaker 01

  What?

• 34:55Lex Fridman?

  Peanut butter, maybe I have.

• 34:56Speaker 01

  What are you talking about? I'm talking about Reese's, man.

• 34:58Lex Fridman?

  Like Reese's, yeah, and yeah, yeah.

• 35:00Speaker 01

  Oh, it's the best candy.

• 35:01Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. Without the fakeness of LA, without the, without the kind of, um, with the facade.

• 35:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, LA's tough.

• 35:12Lex Fridman?

  What's the difference between LA comedy and New York comedy to you?

• 35:16Speaker 01

  Hmm, I think one place you kinda go to make it and be discovered and be loved. And one place you go, you can, you can get all that in New York too, but I think in New York, it's more of a, a school, a boot camp of comedy. Let's make great comedy. Let's make original comedy. Let's watch the other guys and gals who are at the show, at the clubs and learn from them. And try to hang out with them and, and absorb some of them. And in LA, it's like, when am I on? I'm next. Get out of my way. I'm the star here. I'm a bigger star than you. Oh, this guy's actually a big star. I gotta outwork, you know, it's just a lot of that. Instead of like, damn, that was funny. I gotta be that funny. Damn, I wish I had a joke.

• 35:58Speaker 01

  And look, I, I don't wanna speak for LA comics, cause there's, you know, Bill Burr, Anthony Jezzelnik, these brilliant LA comic. But they all cut their teeth in New York. Just saying. Then they moved to LA.

• 36:09Lex Fridman?

  That's a good point.

• 36:10Speaker 01

  You know, Ali Wong, all these people, killer comics, but New York, started in New York, moved to New York.

• 36:16Lex Fridman?

  There is something about comics that stay in New York for a long time though, like David Tell.

• 36:20Speaker 01

  Ah, you know about Dave?

• 36:21Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, yeah. He wants to do this podcast.

• 36:23Speaker 01

  He does?

• 36:24Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, I'm a huge fan of David Tell. But it's like, it almost like he doesn't. Want to make it. I don't know. I mean, you probably know him, but like, it feels like you just. Maybe it's romanticizing it, but you're like, you almost just love the art of comedy of like, becoming funnier. Crafting the jokes, becoming funnier than the other comics, like competing with each other kind of thing. Not over like money or fame or any of that, just just purely the comedy of it.

• 36:52Speaker 01

  Totally. That's Dave. That's him and a nut. He's like that guy in the movies in the eighties, action movies where they're like, they go up to a a creek in Montana and some guy's living in a cabin and he's sharpening a stick and they go. The Russians are coming, they're invading. We need you. You're the best commando. And he's like, I gave that up, man. I'm done with that lifestyle. They're like, but you're the best. We need you. And he has to suit up eventually. You know, he looks at a picture of his dead wife and he goes, fuck it, I'm going. And then they, you know, fight the Ruski's, but uh, he's that guy. He just is gifted. He's like, got a gift from Allah and he's the best.

• 37:26Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, a lot of comics give him props. It's so surprising to me. I didn't, cause, cause surprising to me because he hasn't really made it like big.

• 37:34Speaker 01

  Well, he did in the nineties. He was huge. He had his own TV show. He was.

• 37:38Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, yeah, that show was, that show was awesome. But I mean, like as big as I think he deserves to be. So I.

• 37:43Speaker 01

  Well, that's art. The mainstream shit is always the worst. It's like McDonald's versus some hole in the wall. I know I'm shitting on McDonald's again, but it's good. And you know, certain comics we could name are good, but the, the delicacy is going to be less

• 38:00Speaker 01

  talked about and less uh, household namey than, than the mainstream hacky shit.

• 38:07Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, it's funny cause he hasn't, uh, I think he was on uh, Joe Rogan's show once, maybe.

• 38:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, once or twice.

• 38:14Lex Fridman?

  And, and he was with somebody else. Um.

• 38:17Speaker 01

  Jeff Ross?

• 38:17Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, he might, he might have been with Jeff Ross. Oh yeah. Cause they did that like two mics thing, whatever.

• 38:21Speaker 01

  Big mics, yeah.

• 38:22Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 38:24Speaker 01

  But he's the quickest guy. There's no one funnier.

• 38:27Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Him and uh, you, you're super quick. Your, your appearance on, recent appearance on Rogan's hilarious.

• 38:34Speaker 01

  Oh, thanks.

• 38:34Lex Fridman?

  He's just so fast. You're on with uh, Ari and.

• 38:38Speaker 01

  Shane Gillis.

• 38:39Lex Fridman?

  Shane Gillis.

• 38:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was fun. We're going back in January.

• 38:42Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, nice. This never come out.

• 38:47Speaker 01

  Neither will you. We're having fun.

• 38:50Lex Fridman?

  Yep. All right. So what does it feel like um to bomb in standup comedy? Like to fail? Maybe the psychology of it first, like just take me through it because you were talking about being uh outnumbered in a fight, just being beat up.

• 39:07Speaker 01

  Very similar. By the way, this is like a no eye contact off.

• 39:12Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 39:12Speaker 01

  You know? I like.

• 39:13Lex Fridman?

  We're both uncomfortable with.

• 39:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's great. It's kind of nice to be with my people.

• 39:19Speaker 01

  But yeah.

• 39:19Lex Fridman?

  Do you need a sheet of paper to look at?

• 39:21Speaker 01

  I'm going. I got a good sweet spot right there. Yeah, it's a it's a nightmare, but it's part of it, you know, it's it's it's the it's the validation too is the worst part like because you know, whenever you do comedy and kill, you can be a great comic, but even David Tell, these brilliant guys, they feel like they're getting, you feel like you're getting away with something. I don't have a day job. I'm telling jokes for a living. I'm talking about my dick up here and they're fucking loving me and they call me a genius and all this. I'm talking about my sack. You know? And uh and it's great. It makes people happy and it's funny, but uh that bombing, when you bomb, you go, your first thought is like, yeah, you're right. At first you're like, fuck you got what? You don't like this shit? And then you just start going in. You're like, ah, maybe it isn't that good.

• 40:04Speaker 01

  Maybe they're right. I do suck. I knew I sucked. I should become a mailman, you know? And uh it stinks and it feel you feel alone and you feel like you wasted their time and then you're like, what was I thinking I could be a comedian? What the fuck? Who am I? You know, Eddie Murphy? What am I doing here? So uh it's a lot of just spiraling out of horrible thoughts. But I also love that it hurts so bad. Bombing fucking hurts. Because now now everybody doesn't do it. I think a lot more people could do comedy probably and figure it out. But the bombing is so brutal that it keeps uh one time I went to Minneapolis. I was like, this is a great city. I mean, it's sun is shining. Why isn't this city like packed? And they're like, because the winters are so bad and we love it because it keeps everybody out.

• 40:47Speaker 01

  And I feel the same about comedy. The bombs are so brutal. I've had bombs where I'm in, I'm in bed, I'm just staring at the ceiling like, what the fuck was that? Like you have PTSD. I bombed at an arena once, 20,000 people. I did 30 minutes to silence.

• 41:01Lex Fridman?

  So it's not just like one joke fails.

• 41:04Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 41:05Lex Fridman?

  They start piling on, like it's irrecoverable?

• 41:07Speaker 01

  Yes. And one joke failing is very common. Like a lot of audiences don't even notice like that bomb. Cause you get, you know, you got so many jokes in a row, you can sandwich a good one, then a bad one, then a good one. But when you bomb, it's almost like they chose, we don't like you. Nothing you say will redeem yourself. And uh, it's hard to get out of. It's like being pulled down by your hair. You can't get back. I can't win this fight no matter what.

• 41:31Lex Fridman?

  Can you like get him back by acknowledging like the elf in the room that like?

• 41:36Speaker 01

  That helps, but they're still gonna go, that was funny when he made fun of it, but he sucks.

• 41:40Lex Fridman?

  He still sucks.

• 41:41Speaker 01

  He still sucks. That's the worst part. You're going, no, this is good. You guys just don't like me. Just cause you don't like me, doesn't mean I'm bad.

• 41:48Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, I like going to open mics a lot, just, just listening because first of all, I think the audience in the open mic, at least the ones I've been to is uh, mostly I guess other comedians. It, or like at least people who don't seem to wanna laugh at anything. And so I just love it cause it's human nature and perseverance at its best. But here's comedians like clearly, uh, this is mostly in Austin. They have a dream. Like, why would you get up there?

• 42:17Speaker 01

  Right. Maybe some weird, you know, New Year's resolution bullshit, but for the most part, it's people who wanna be comedians.

• 42:25Lex Fridman?

  Like a lot of the open micers are people who have clearly have done this for quite a long time.

• 42:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:30Lex Fridman?

  Like at least a year or two, maybe five years. And they're often not very funny. And um,

• 42:41Lex Fridman?

  the, just bombing in front of an audience of like 20, where they're just sitting there like, almost like mocking them with their eyes, or maybe, and I don't know, and they still push through. They still, they still like, as if they're doing an arena and everybody's laughing. They still, they still got that energy trying, almost like to an audience.

• 43:06Lex Fridman?

  That doesn't exist, like an audience of their dreams. Cause I guess you have to do that to keep the energy of the act going. And it's just so beautiful to watch them try it. It's uh, and also the, what happens, open mic, I don't know, five minutes, whatever they do. They, you know, walk off and that walk back, you know, offstage.

• 43:27Speaker 01

  Nightmare.

• 43:28Lex Fridman?

  And like, you can't, what, who do they look at? Like, what do you look, do you make eye contact with people? Do you?

• 43:34Speaker 01

  You look at your phone, you look at your feet, you, you just zone out. You kind of, woo, you kind of go white, you know, you just hear a white noise and go out. It's, it's tough. But you got it, you need a little, a delu-, a little delusion to be a comedian. To get into it, it takes a little bit of delusion. Like, you think you can do this, you know, you got 10 years ahead of you of hell and you're up for this? And, you know, most comics, we see a horrible crowd and we see our friend bomb and we go, yeah, he's bombing, but I'll get him. I'll get him. And then you don't get him. But that's, that's human nature too, is like, ah, they don't like him, but they'll like me. And you need a little of that to keep going as a comedian. But you don't want too much delusion, cause then you're a psycho.

• 44:18Speaker 01

  But you need a little.

• 44:21Lex Fridman?

  Well, the psycho could be good for a comedy.

• 44:23Speaker 01

  That's true too, a lot of psychos.

• 44:25Lex Fridman?

  I mentioned to you offline, um, that I talked to Elon and we talked about doing standup. That he's thinking maybe do a few minutes of standup.

• 44:32Speaker 01

  Say, if you need a coach, Elon, I got you.

• 44:36Lex Fridman?

  Well, maybe you should move to Austin to coach him full time.

• 44:39Speaker 01

  Ah, hopefully he can fly me in.

• 44:41Lex Fridman?

  So what, what advice would you give to somebody who, um, who wants to try to do five minutes? Like the early steps of trying to go to an open mic and say something funny?

• 44:55Speaker 01

  Well, that's the irony of comedy is, I don't know if it's irony, but it's like, the beginning is the hardest part. Usually the beginning is the easy part. Hey, I'm playing this level of Mario. I start, I jump over one kupa troupa, whatever. And then the end is like, Jesus Christ, I got 30 guys coming at me. Comedy's the opposite. The beginning is like. It's a gauntlet. It's just obstacles and it's like you said, open mics. You, I watch these famous comedians on Netflix and you go, this would all bomb at an open mic. They're killing in, you know, Radio City.

• 45:23Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 45:23Speaker 01

  This would bomb at an open mic. That's the weird part. So it's almost you have to go through hell just to get to the, the promised land. And, uh, I would say rehearse the shit out of it because you're gonna get frazzled up there. Everybody thinks, oh, this is good material, but you also forget about the other part of delivering it, having confidence, being likeable, having timing, having a cadence, figuring out who you are, figure out what the audience thinks you are or how they perceive you. Cause you can go up there and say all this, but they go, why is the guy, he's clearly gay. Why is he acting like he's not gay? You know, that's all they're, now they're not listening to the joke. So like, you gotta know how you look. And, uh, it's just repetition, repetition and bombing is not failure. That's what you gotta remember.

• 46:05Speaker 01

  I mean, look, if you, if you do a, a killer hour and then you take it to Netflix and bomb, you fucked up.

• 46:10Lex Fridman?

  Mm-hmm.

• 46:10Speaker 01

  But bombing is not failure. It's just data. It's going, oh, okay. I gotta re, retool that. That didn't work. Something wrong there. They, I missed a word there. So you gotta treat the, uh, the act almost like, uh, like, uh, like ingredients in a, in a, in a cooking in a dish, you know, like, oh, that, I put too many eggs in. Take an egg out. You gotta treat it like that. And look, when you pull a, a bad cake out of an oven, you go, I fucked up, but it doesn't hurt your feelings. But when you bomb and fuck up, it hurts your feelings. So you gotta factor that in too. Your feelings gonna be hurt. And just almost be a robot and just keep going towards that open mic. You know how scary an open mic is? Bombing sucked, but bombing in front of other comedians is way worse.

• 46:53Speaker 01

  Cause they know what just happened and they could have saved you and they didn't. So it's way worse.

• 47:00Lex Fridman?

  And that they're gonna be your quote unquote friends.

• 47:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 47:04Lex Fridman?

  For this journey.

• 47:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. No, these are evil people. Twisted, fucked up, hurt people.

• 47:12Lex Fridman?

  Can you tell, like in those early days, let's just talk about that, like at the open mic level, that a joke is gonna be good on paper. Like I'll, I'll give you my experience, cause, uh,

• 47:24Lex Fridman?

  Maybe you can be my coach in this particular moment.

• 47:27Speaker 01

  So like Larry Nassar.

• 47:32Speaker 01

  That's fun, huh? Joking, everybody. I hope nobody takes it seriously.

• 47:37Lex Fridman?

  There's I now have an amazing team of folks who help me with editing and they're now currently sweating.

• 47:42Speaker 01

  Ah, you gotta leave that one in. That was quick.

• 47:45Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, that's pretty good.

• 47:46Speaker 01

  I'll eat that one.

• 47:46Lex Fridman?

  That was good.

• 47:49Lex Fridman?

  All right, so, you know, going in front of an audience, just even to give a lecture terrifies me, which I've done, but open mic, I mean, that to me, perhaps that's why I like going to open mics and listening is because I just, it terrifies me so much, that idea.

• 48:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:09Lex Fridman?

  Of going up there and bombing. I mean, it's scary and to do even like one minute, to be honest, is scary. And five minutes, I'm also watched enough open mics to realize that five minutes is a long time. I mean, it depends on your comedy, but if you're doing fast stuff, five minutes is a really long time.

• 48:29Speaker 01

  Oh, it's eternity.

• 48:31Lex Fridman?

  I guess with a long story, two is a long time because if the story is not work, you're building up to something. If the story is gonna fail.

• 48:40Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 48:40Lex Fridman?

  You just spent all that time telling the story that completely went flat.

• 48:44Speaker 01

  Completely.

• 48:45Lex Fridman?

  Got nothing. I guess if you have a series of jokes, you can at least try to recover and like do the Mitch Hedberg thing where like, all right, I'll cross that off.

• 48:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 48:54Lex Fridman?

  Well, I'm able to, like, I've tried to write a few things and I'm able to tell that it's really bad.

• 49:01Speaker 01

  Well, that's better than most. Most people's egos kick in and go, no, this is good.

• 49:06Lex Fridman?

  Now, see, I'm able to introspect that. Like, it seems funny. I mean, I guess the thing I'm looking for is original. Like, there's easy stuff. That you think it's funny, but to me, originality is the thing you should be looking for.

• 49:21Speaker 01

  I agree.

• 49:22Lex Fridman?

  Because then, because then that's what's actually becomes funny. Like, or rather, if it's original, even if it bombs, that feels like more a beautiful art creation that you did, like at least you swung for it, like you did something unique. Cause there, like even with open mic, your first five minutes, there's so many, just go to enough open mics, you'll hear like all the, there's like a list of jokes that you just go to. First of all, you can make fun of the fact that you're at an open mic, that you're like doing this the first time and so on. You could do a lot of stuff where you make fun of your appearance in some way and so on, but like, yeah, you could do that, you know, that takes actually, that's way harder

• 50:05Lex Fridman?

  than people realize to do in an original way.

• 50:08Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 50:09Lex Fridman?

  To, to present who you are as a person very quickly enough to then put that person down in front of everybody, everybody else. So you have to reveal the.

• 50:20Speaker 01

  The audience is like that because they go, he knows what we're thinking.

• 50:23Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, exactly. But do it again in an original way. And so like when I'm trying to write stuff, not that I've tried long, it's like 30 minutes, but as enough to see like, oh shit, the, to write something original is really difficult.

• 50:39Speaker 01

  It is, but you, you got a bit, anything?

• 50:41Lex Fridman?

  No.

• 50:42Speaker 01

  You didn't write any one liner or anything?

• 50:43Lex Fridman?

  For this? No.

• 50:44Speaker 01

  Well, just in general, ever in your life, ever written a joke?

• 50:47Lex Fridman?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 50:48Speaker 01

  Oh, okay.

• 50:49Lex Fridman?

  No, but I don't have anything in my mind popped up. So the, the, the jokes that I've written have more like, for some reason, my mind goes to like dark places. So, you know, like, and not actually dark in the Mark Norman dark, because you go really dark to where it's like almost absurd.

• 51:11Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 51:11Lex Fridman?

  My natural inclination is to go to like a dark historical like place, like Hitler and Stalin.

• 51:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:21Lex Fridman?

  And almost to go to that place and then talk about something absurd there. So like, don't go like, um.

• 51:34Lex Fridman?

  Like all the way, I don't know, I don't want to give examples because it'd be clipped. But the, but the Mark Norma style, look it up. He has a special on his YouTube. That kind, I want to almost explore the dark aspects of human nature more kind of connected to actual historical figures. That's the, that's the inclination. Like, I don't know, Nature's Metal, the Instagram channel that, that explores like the darkness of nature.

• 52:02Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 52:02Lex Fridman?

  Like something there.

• 52:04Speaker 01

  That, see, that's good that you already know that you've kind of gotten to the core of your comedy already. And that, that's interesting. That's a step ahead.

• 52:12Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, I can hear, I'm with most things that I do in life, I can like hear the music from a distance, like in myself, like, okay, if you have anything, this is the direction it'll be.

• 52:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:23Lex Fridman?

  Without actually knowing exactly all the steps. And that's a nice motivation to be like, all right, well, if you do this for a long time, maybe you'll have a chance to get there.

• 52:30Speaker 01

  Right.

• 52:31Lex Fridman?

  But you have to, that, that's where the, it's a feature to be super self-critical, I think.

• 52:36Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 52:36Lex Fridman?

  But then that's why it's fucking terrifying to walk up to a stage, stand there, and probably forget everything.

• 52:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's the other part. Nobody thinks about. Just goes right out of your head. You go fight or flight. It's ugly. My, my first years were horrific bombing, horrific stammering, horrific not remembering the punchline, like, you gotta, maybe you got a setup going and they're kind of on board and you're like, ah, how's that? Ah, camera, how it goes. And you just hate yourself. It's, it's a nightmare. But you've already kind of, maybe if you haven't done stand-up or whatever, you kind of know your voice. And that's,

• 53:10Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 53:10Speaker 01

  That's pretty advanced.

• 53:12Lex Fridman?

  So you're not trying to be somebody else. I guess, yeah, just for having done like podcasts and lecture and so on.

• 53:18Speaker 01

  That helps.

• 53:19Lex Fridman?

  You've embarrassed, I've already done some of the work of the stand-ups do, which is embarrass yourself in front of others for prolonged periods of time.

• 53:26Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 53:27Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, so I've done that without actually developing the funny.

• 53:31Speaker 01

  Right, right, right.

• 53:32Lex Fridman?

  But maybe the funny just is not that difficult to develop.

• 53:38Lex Fridman?

  No, it's super difficult, of course, but I mean, maybe the essential work of a stand-up comedian is just the embarrassment of like finding who you are.

• 53:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a part of it for sure. You know, in the beginning, you're like, water bottle. What's funny about water bottle? Hmm, I'm a funny guy. I can make this funny, but that ain't, that's not it, you know? It's, it's your shit, your shit, like your dark stuff. For me, I tend to gravitate towards dark, but in a weird way where, you know, people will say like, "Hey, don't objectify women," but then they go, "Caitlyn Jenner's beautiful." And you're like, "Well, wait, I know something's off here."

• 54:09Lex Fridman?

  Mm-hmm.

• 54:10Speaker 01

  Why can't you objectify her, but not the supermodel? So what's going on there? And I like to play with that. So I have this joke where I say, "Caitlyn Jenner..." Oh, women go, "Caitlyn Jenner's beautiful, beautiful woman." I go, "Well, you look like her." And they go, "Fuck you." And you're like, "There's a lot of truth there."

• 54:29Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 54:29Speaker 01

  But I like exploring that kind of, "Oh, you're trying to get one over on me? Or you're lying to yourself? Or what are we doing here?" And I like, I like that kind of comedy. "I don't see color." "Well, I'm black." "No, you're not." Ah, you know, that's fun, because you're, you're lying.

• 54:46Lex Fridman?

  Uh, yeah, okay, so, like, big time comedians, such as yourself, don't like to think of yourself in this way, but...

• 54:54Speaker 01

  There we go.

• 54:55Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, this is like where you over philosophize comedy, but...

• 54:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, definitely.

• 55:00Lex Fridman?

  It seems like comedians...

• 55:04Speaker 01

  Don't say important. Nothing worse than a comedian who thinks they're important.

• 55:07Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. So I was going, I was trying to find, as I was trying to say these words, I realized how cliché it is and how uninteresting it is. So I'm going to just, but there is something, uh...

• 55:18Speaker 01

  I'm worried this whole thing is uninteresting. I'm like, "Who cares about comedy? There's like six comics on the planet."

• 55:23Lex Fridman?

  That nobody cares.

• 55:24Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 55:24Lex Fridman?

  This is just...

• 55:25Speaker 01

  I trust you in the, in the pilot seat. You know what you're doing. You got, you got listeners.

• 55:30Lex Fridman?

  They've tuned out long ago.

• 55:31Speaker 01

  Oh, we got Dan Carlin on here, huh? Is he around?

• 55:34Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. We're just going back and forth on Twitter just now. I'm a huge fan. He was on here before. He'll be back.

• 55:40Speaker 01

  He's great.

• 55:41Lex Fridman?

  I've been actually really trying to volunteer myself aggressively with Dan Carlin for like a Russian episode where I could speak Russian. I, there's, there's certain documents, same, I talked with Jaco about this too. Certain things...

• 55:57Lex Fridman?

  I mean, I just love the challenge of bringing Russian documents that I can read in Russian and they can translate and can try to capture the the depth of the writing in in the Russian language and communicate to an American audience. So much is lost in translation. Like, there's so much pain and poetry in the Russian language. It's just connected to the culture. Every language, not every language, but many languages are uniquely able to capture the culture of the people. I mean, in some way, they're the representation of the culture of the people. And so Russian is definitely that, like, represents the full history and culture of the 20th century with all the atrocities, all the all the broken promises, all those kinds of things.

• 56:41Speaker 01

  Norm says Russian literature is it's the most tapped into human existence than anything else.

• 56:48Lex Fridman?

  Norm.

• 56:49Speaker 01

  McDonald.

• 56:50Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 56:50Speaker 01

  Big, big Russian literature guy. Dostoevsky, all that shit.

• 56:55Lex Fridman?

  It's funny that there is a gap of comedians, too. There's a culture of Russian comedy, like, stand-up comedians that are totally.

• 57:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, right?

• 57:02Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 57:03Speaker 01

  I don't know these Russians.

• 57:04Lex Fridman?

  I mean, I don't know today. I mean, more from the 80s and 90s. And so there's a.

• 57:10Speaker 01

  Yakov. That's all I know.

• 57:13Lex Fridman?

  That's not. So there's like, of course, that's, that's.

• 57:16Speaker 01

  I've never seen you that offended.

• 57:17Lex Fridman?

  No, no, it's not offended. There's a different.

• 57:22Lex Fridman?

  There's, there's a, there's like the Kinisons and the, there's the edgy.

• 57:27Speaker 01

  Is that Russian?

• 57:29Lex Fridman?

  What do you mean?

• 57:30Speaker 01

  Wait, I thought you said there was Russian comics.

• 57:32Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, Russian. I mean, I'm comparing that. I'm giving you, I'm giving you like a style of darkness. Like, that's the kind of people that kind of challenge.

• 57:43Lex Fridman?

  They, they give, again, this is to how important comedians are, is they give a voice to people where in the Soviet Union, you really can't, like, express your opposition to the government. And so comedians are exceptionally important there for just, just, I don't know, channeling the anger, even when sometimes it's not the actual opposition to the government. They're just channeling the anger, the frustration with the absurdity of life, like.

• 58:13Lex Fridman?

  You know, when there's a shortage of food, shortage of jobs, the, the, the absurdity of the bureaucracy, like the top-heavy government, just all of that can only sometimes be expressed with like dark absurd humor. And that actually why there's a culture of that kind of humor, you know, you gather around the table with vodka.

• 58:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:36Lex Fridman?

  And all you can do is just talk shit.

• 58:39Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 58:40Lex Fridman?

  And just.

• 58:41Speaker 01

  Be offensive, say horrible shit, ball bust. I mean, I make school shooting jokes and people go, how do you do that? I'm like, well, maybe that's how I deal with it.

• 58:49Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 58:49Speaker 01

  You know, like, how come I gotta, I gotta empathize the way you do? Maybe we're different.

• 58:57Lex Fridman?

  All right. So now let's skip the whole open mic thing and crafting jokes.

• 59:03Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, that's tough.

• 59:04Lex Fridman?

  Kerouac said, "One day I will find the right words and they will be simple."

• 59:11Lex Fridman?

  When do you know the joke is done? It's perfect. You're somebody that does like really sharp, like fast jokes.

• 59:21Speaker 01

  Oh, thanks.

• 59:22Lex Fridman?

  So like there's somebody, I don't know, I don't know who you see yourself in the same school as like had your, you're darker and faster than Hedberg, I think, in terms of like, just, I don't know, the turns you take are very.

• 59:38Speaker 01

  Thanks. I appreciate it. I think I got some Norm MacDonald and maybe.

• 59:41Lex Fridman?

  That's right.

• 59:42Speaker 01

  You know, obviously Norm, but Chris Rock was huge for me. Chris Rock, old like nineties Chris Rock was like, I didn't know you could do jokes like that. I always loved George Carlin and Groucho Marx and Bill Murray. There's so many different types of comedy, but when I saw the bigger and blacker bring the pain, I was like, oh my God, this like it hit me. So that was big. And then Norm's just like the funniest guy on the planet. So him, him being the smartest guy in the room, but acting dumb was great. So, uh, yeah. Chris Rock has that way of cutting to the, the bullshit, which I, I mentioned earlier, I like that. Cutting through the bullshit kind of style of comedy because you kind of go, oh, I'm not crazy.

• 1:00:23Speaker 01

  That's what I thought too. I was too scared to say, but I thought that and he's saying it in a room of people are laughing. Maybe I'm not an idiot. So that helped me.

• 1:00:32Lex Fridman?

  So it's observational, but not Jerry Seif observational. It's like look going to the darker thing to like within society.

• 1:00:41Speaker 01

  But I like him too, but seeing it, doing it about stuff like in your life, society.

• 1:00:48Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, race, gender, government, politics, all that kind of stuff.

• 1:00:52Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly. Sex, human emotions, jealousy, whatever it is, that that's the good stuff.

• 1:00:59Lex Fridman?

  How'd you feel when Norm passed away?

• 1:01:01Speaker 01

  Ah, that was a bummer because uh, he was, you know, what 61? And I just didn't see it coming and I just, I've, I've watched so many hours of his stuff. And I've, I've met him and he, he's like, he was like this comedic bar, like, hey, we got Norm, you know? There's so much shit comedy. Then you see Norm and you're like, this is next level. This is savant type shit. And then to lose him is like, ah. Norm had 20 more years at least of just content and content and thoughts and his point of view. And that's, we'll never get that. And that sucks.

• 1:01:36Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, there is something about artists like Jimi Hendrix dying too early. It's like, you wonder.

• 1:01:43Speaker 01

  What was next?

• 1:01:44Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, what was next? But then part of it is like, um, you know, it all ends for all of us. And it's like walking away early is um, it's kind of admirable. It's almost like I did a pretty good job.

• 1:02:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:00Lex Fridman?

  I'm uh, I'm, I'm good with that. Especially the way he did, which is not telling anybody.

• 1:02:05Speaker 01

  I know. Nine years, his best friends didn't even know. And in this world of like victimhood and I need clicks and I need people to love me. He could have, he got, you know, canceled and yelled at and in trouble. And he could have pulled that cancer card and he never did. I mean, the integrity on this motherfucker.

• 1:02:21Lex Fridman?

  Did you get a chance to interact with him? Like what, how many, how often did you meet him?

• 1:02:24Speaker 01

  I met him once at the Comedy Cellar and we chatted for five minutes. And then he went on and did the, the Letterman set that he did. He was running the Letterman set. And uh, sweet guy, nice guy, didn't know him that well, but I mean, he's just brilliant. And I also love a brilliant guy who does stupid stuff. That's a fun, fun little combo there, like silly guys who are actually brilliant also.

• 1:02:49Speaker 01

  You know, like Louis CK is a brilliant comic and he'll do a joke about farting on a kid. And you're like, that's great that he still finds farts funny and he's also this comedic genius guy. I like that.

• 1:03:02Lex Fridman?

  And doesn't really acknowledge the genius.

• 1:03:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:05Lex Fridman?

  Like that's, yeah. I like, I like smart people. They're silly.

• 1:03:10Speaker 01

  Yes, that's a good combo. Like you said, Elon is silly.

• 1:03:13Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's great.

• 1:03:14Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:15Speaker 01

  Cause we, we taught, we teach kids like, hey, put that down, stop that, quit cutting up, quit horsing around. But maybe that's some kind of sign of brilliance there.

• 1:03:24Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. Being like childlike and silly is, is a kind of wisdom. I feel like those people are way wiser than the people that, no offense to me, wear a suit and take themselves way too seriously.

• 1:03:36Speaker 01

  No, but you got a spark in you.

• 1:03:37Lex Fridman?

  A little bit.

• 1:03:38Speaker 01

  You got a little, uh, what's the word? Not elf, imp, little imp in you. Give that a go. You know about imp?

• 1:03:46Lex Fridman?

  Uh, yeah.

• 1:03:47Speaker 01

  Mischievous. It's like a little, uh.

• 1:03:49Lex Fridman?

  Is that a Tolkien character? Imp?

• 1:03:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, it might be.

• 1:03:53Lex Fridman?

  Imp is a European mythological being similar to a fairy or a demon. He called me a fairy.

• 1:03:57Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:03:58Lex Fridman?

  Frequently, no, okay. Similar to a fairy or a demon.

• 1:04:02Speaker 01

  Ooh.

• 1:04:03Lex Fridman?

  I feel like that's a big leap.

• 1:04:04Speaker 01

  Big leap. Yeah, that's not a great, uh, info bio there.

• 1:04:07Lex Fridman?

  Frequently described in folklore and superstition, the word may perhaps derive from the term imp spelled with a Y. Used to denote a young grafted tree. Oh.

• 1:04:19Speaker 01

  It's a little mischievous. You got a twinkle. You're this serious buttoned up guy, but there's a twinkle.

• 1:04:24Lex Fridman?

  There's a twinkle. Wow.

• 1:04:25Speaker 01

  And the audience can see the twinkle and that's why you resonate, I think.

• 1:04:30Speaker 01

  I'm sorry.

• 1:04:31Lex Fridman?

  Deep analysis by Mark Norman, psychological analysis. Okay, but then back to the crafting of the joke. You said Chris Rock and Norm MacDonald, like what for you? Um, how do you know when the joke is like done? Are there some jokes where you're like, are proud of like, wow, that, that's, uh, that's well done.

• 1:04:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. The joke is done. It's a tough question because there's so many different kinds of jokes. There's what we call a chunk, which is a big idea with a bunch of jokes in the middle of it. And then a big crescendo at the end. Or there's a one liner. Or there's a tag of a joke that's also a joke. So the jokes come in different, uh, like I have a joke where I say, I met my girl on that Jewish app. What's that Jewish app called? Uh, PayPal.

• 1:05:17Lex Fridman?

  Nice.

• 1:05:19Speaker 01

  That's the hell, that's what the reaction you want from the, ah, the crowd. But it's a fun turn, cause you say your thing and then I hit you with a misdirect. And that's what a joke is. A joke is basically me saying something that makes sense, but you didn't see it coming.

• 1:05:33Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:33Speaker 01

  And that's a perfect example of that. So, uh, that joke took forever to figure out, by the way. You know, and-

• 1:05:39Lex Fridman?

  You have to go to different services like PayPal. Like, what's funniest?

• 1:05:42Speaker 01

  Exactly. And I figured PayPal is funny because it has the word pay in it.

• 1:05:46Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:46Speaker 01

  You know, Venmo, it's also not really a good word. Venmo, PayPal. It just hits better.

• 1:05:52Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, PayPal is funnier somehow.

• 1:05:54Speaker 01

  It's funnier somehow. And that's the beauty of comedy. There's a weird little magic into it. You can get technical all day and formulaic, but there's still that little bit of, uh, fairy dust that you don't know why this is funnier.

• 1:06:05Lex Fridman?

  Or imp dust.

• 1:06:06Speaker 01

  Imp dust. Yes.

• 1:06:08Lex Fridman?

  The why. Okay.

• 1:06:10Speaker 01

  So you know a joke is done when it kills and it, there's a roundness to a joke when you feel like this is buttoned up. There's, this is done here.

• 1:06:16Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. Is simplicity the right word there?

• 1:06:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:20Lex Fridman?

  Is it like you're chopping stuff away or you're adding stuff? Like, what does it feel like?

• 1:06:23Speaker 01

  Simplicity is always the best angle. I mean, you can get real high concept with a joke and still make it work, but the simpler, the better. I saw, uh, Dave Chappelle on stage once and Chris Rock and Dimitri Martin were in the back watching in awe. And Dave Chappelle, I can't remember the joke, but he said something about sex or women. And Dimitri Martin goes, "Ah, it's a little easy." And Chris Rock goes, "That's why it's good." And I remember hearing that as some young comic like, "Ah, I'm getting this like, you know, comedy lesson right here from these two titans." And so that was fun. Simple is key.

• 1:06:58Lex Fridman?

  So the easy is okay. That's such a weird, uh, I, I, I think I remember, um, reading or hearing Eminem say something about maybe the song some shape, the, one of the songs. He's like, "I knew it was gonna be good because it got like really repetitive and annoying very quickly," something like that. I mean, that's the, the sort of the music equivalent of, um, it's too easy. Like if it's like super catchy, as a musician, you might get very quickly bored of it. Uh, or like as you're creating it, no, it's too, it's too easy. It's like, there needs to be some more complexity to it, but-

• 1:07:36Speaker 01

  I like complexity, but the best guys who are the ones who make complex shit look simple. Like, you ever heard that, uh, Ben Franklin story? Where he's talking to his friend, his friend's like, "I'm gonna start a hat store." So he puts a sign out, says, "Hats for sale, $12." And, and Ben Franklin looks at it, goes, "Uh, well, you don't need the $12, cuz, you know, all they need to know is that you got hats for sale." He's like, "All right," so he loses the $12, makes a new sign, "Hats for sale." And he goes, "You don't, you don't really need for sale, because it's a business. People can put that together." So he just goes, "All right," he makes a new sign, it says "Hats." And then Ben Franklin's like, "You know, you don't really need the word hat. You can just put a picture of a hat." And he made a new sign, which is a picture of a hat, and it like helped the business, or something.

• 1:08:19Speaker 01

  There's like some old wives tale, or whatever, but I think about that all the time when I'm writing.

• 1:08:24Lex Fridman?

  I thought this was going to like, there was no sign, it went like, super like,

• 1:08:27Speaker 01

  Oh, maybe, maybe, that could work, too.

• 1:08:31Lex Fridman?

  Uh, what, like, as a comedian, so I'm, I'm a fan of yours, I enjoy, I really enjoy you in conversations, like,

• 1:08:38Speaker 01

  Wow, now, getting nothing out of you.

• 1:08:41Lex Fridman?

  This is,

• 1:08:42Speaker 01

  All right, I can't,

• 1:08:43Lex Fridman?

  Like emotion?

• 1:08:44Speaker 01

  You're tough not to read.

• 1:08:45Lex Fridman?

  Cold inside. I mean, just the quickness you have, uh, uh, obviously, you're also a great stand-up comedian. What's your favorite medium to shine in? So you have, uh, a podcast yourself, an excellent podcast. You're often a podcast guest.

• 1:09:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:04Lex Fridman?

  Which is always fun, to listen to how you're gonna deal with the different people. You're great on Rogan.

• 1:09:09Speaker 01

  Oh, thanks.

• 1:09:11Lex Fridman?

  What, what, what do you enjoy most?

• 1:09:13Speaker 01

  Podcasts are great, because you can, you can stretch out a little more, you can breathe a little. You know, with a stand-up set, I like to be like, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. But podcasts are great, cuz it's conversational, so you can be, it's almost like you're being funny with your friends. Whereas a stage is like, uh, this is a piece, this is a presentation. Uh, but I think the, the podcast is great, but you don't get the reaction. Unless the host is laughing, you can't hear the guy in his car in New Jersey, driving to work going, "Ah!" Every now and I'll read a comment like, "I spit out my coffee when you said this." And I'm like, "But it's not immediate. You want the immediate." So, stand-up will always be number one, but there's no better feeling than killing in a room of people who don't know who you are, strangers, you're in the middle of nowhere, you left your wife at home,

• 1:09:58Speaker 01

  you left your kids, you left your house, you're in the middle of bumfuck dickville, and murdering for these hillbilly, nobody, whatever it is. And they're slinging their beers and woo, cheering you on, and they carry out, and you fuck some fat lady, and you leave, and you get back to your hotel, and you go, "Holy shit, what was that? No one will ever know about it, just lost in the ether." That's the best feeling.

• 1:10:23Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:24Speaker 01

  Killing in obscurity, as Bill Burr would say.

• 1:10:28Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, this is one of the things that sucks about giving lectures, like, at universities, or giving lectures in general, is when you look at the audience, you know, several hundred students, they're all have a bored look on their face.

• 1:10:45Speaker 01

  Yep, of course.

• 1:10:46Lex Fridman?

  Like, even, like, my, my face now probably looks bored, but I'm actually excited to be talking to you. But there's something about, just, uh, there's something about a comedy club, maybe this is the contagion of laughter, but like, it gives people the freedom to just laugh, to like,

• 1:11:01Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:11:02Lex Fridman?

  to remove the facade of, like, you don't have to, you don't have to pretend like you don't care. Like, if you care, you can show it, and you can have fun with it a lot. Probably liquor is helps out too, yeah.

• 1:11:13Speaker 01

  It helps, for sure. But there is a, especially, and that's why comedy, I think, is so popular right now, because HR is up our ass, we're scared of old tweets that might come back to haunt us. "What did I say on that interview?" Uh, even people at offices are like, "I put something on Facebook in 1999 that was about fat tits that I liked. Should I get rid of that?" Even people say, like, "There's no cancel," whatever. There is something in the air right now, and that wasn't there before.

• 1:11:41Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:41Speaker 01

  It's the video, "I'm a Karen, I got caught at Trader Joe," whatever it is. This, people rat on each other now, everybody's tattletaling, because they want the clicks. It's a horrible society we've crafted, but...

• 1:11:53Speaker 01

  Stand-up comedy gets you to come out, and now people do it at stand-up shows too sadly, but it gets you to come out and let that inhibition down, like, because we're all human. We've all had the fucked up thoughts, like, man, that guy's fat as shit. It doesn't mean you hate the guy, doesn't mean you hate fat people, doesn't mean you're fat shaming, but you can't say that at the office. You can't go, Bob, you're fat as shit. You'll get fired for body shaming. But at the club, you go, that guy's fat as shit, and the crowd goes, he is fat as shit. Ahhhhh. And it's this weird cathartic thing, because all we do is tamp shit down. It's kind of like, you ever meet a girl who's like all prim and proper, then in the bedroom, she's like, put a lamp up my ass, ahhhhh, you know, whatever it is. It's because we gotta get it out. We're all repressed in some way.

• 1:12:34Lex Fridman?

  So I guess what you're saying is comedy's important.

• 1:12:38Speaker 01

  Yes. Callback. Well played, sir.

• 1:12:42Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. What do you think about Austin? What do you think about the comedy scene in Austin? We talked about LA and New York. What do you think about what Joe's trying to create there? So I, I should say that the reason I moved to Austin, I have this dream of, uh, it wouldn't be funny if I said this dream of becoming a comedian.

• 1:13:01Speaker 01

  An audience, at least.

• 1:13:03Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, that's true. You know, I always said you can hear the music in the distance. I, you know, I have this dream around robotics and artificial intelligence, whether it's a company, whether it's something else, that was just pulling me to, I actually wanted to move to San Francisco, and then all my friends in San Francisco said, no, it's the wrong place.

• 1:13:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:19Lex Fridman?

  To, to, uh, it's no, it's, at this time, the cynicism there is just not conducive to like, taking big leaps into the unknown, excited about the future kind of thing. And, and Austin was that, with, um, for me in particular, with Elon Musk, but also just the energy that everybody had, including Joe. The excitement about the future. I don't, I don't care if Austin burns to the ground and it actually is a complete failure. Uh, being excited about the future seems to be, like, optimism about the future seems to be the thing that actually makes that future happen, makes a great future happen.

• 1:13:58Lex Fridman?

  So it's always cool for me to see, uh, like Joe, super excited about creating like, um, a culture in Austin, like a... Making it a comedy hub, like, I don't want to overstate it, but he, I mean, I think he really believes it'll be a very big place for comedy in the United States in general, in the world. And so just even believing that, that's powerful. Like, you start to make it, you start to make it happen. That energy is there. Anyway, so, but that's for me from just an outsider watching the fun of it. I should also mention for less of an outsider, more insider in the martial arts world,

• 1:14:38Lex Fridman?

  partially probably because of Joe, I'm not sure, like John Donahue, Gordon Ryan, the B Team, all of those folks, those are, that might be gibberish to you, but those are like some of the greatest grapplers and martial artists of all time. So it's also becoming this hub of martial arts. So the whole, the whole thing is, is just beautiful. Anyway, what, uh, what are your thoughts about that scene?

• 1:15:02Speaker 01

  Well, there's a lot, lot here, a lot of things to mention. One, I think Joe did do that to a, a, a degree, you know, like all these people, Segura lives there now, a lot of comics live there. He's opening clubs, other clubs are opening. I think it's happening. That's the other thing is people go, everybody's moving to Austin, Austin's the new hub. And then they look at their watch and they go, five minutes went by, nothing changed. It's gonna take years, you know, but everybody wants it now, now, now. Um, what, awesome. There's no industry there, you know, there's no Netflix, whatever. And you're like, yeah, I know, but it, it needs a minute. You can't just do this overnight. So people forget that. So it could happen huge, just give it some time. I mean, he's opening a club.

• 1:15:43Speaker 01

  I went and saw it. It's incredible. Like, it's so perfect for comedy. It's every detail. It's incredible. But, uh, so it could happen still. I do think where there's a little biting off more than they can chew with Austin, because it's not that big. So like,

• 1:16:00Lex Fridman?

  It's spread out. I mean, yeah, it's not big and the, and the infrastructure is not quite there to support it. But it has a lot of, uh, you know, comparing for my, for the tech side for, uh, it has a lot of land to expand into. So it might become this. Like you're basically establishing, it's kind of like in New York, you're establishing these whole neighborhoods.

• 1:16:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:22Lex Fridman?

  And you have the freedom to do that because there's a lot of space on all sides.

• 1:16:26Speaker 01

  Yes, okay, so that helps. So again, maybe some time.

• 1:16:31Speaker 01

  I do agree with this, that new hope, that's kind of built into human beings of like, let's go to America, let's go to Utopia, we even have it with space, let's go to Mars, we gotta see what's over there. And it's just red, dusty bullshit, but you still gotta go. So I'm with you on that about this new hope, this new land. Uh, and I think that is beautiful, and I think there's a lot of haters, I think there's a lot of naysayers who hate change, who hate anything new. And then I think you gotta go, hey, that hurts, that sucks, but blow me dickless, I'm trying something, you're a loser. Stop hating on me. I mean, how many people hate Elon Musk, you know?

• 1:17:08Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, it's hilarious. I mean, there's uh, some of the criticism on Austin would be, it's like a fad. Like, a lot of people are really, a really, people are excited about Austin. And somehow that's like, uh, it's like when Green Day became famous, you no longer want to be a fan of Green Day. But to me, like, that's, uh.

• 1:17:26Speaker 01

  Austin was already a cool town, like every comic five years ago was like, oh, I got Austin this week and I can't wait.

• 1:17:32Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:33Speaker 01

  So it already had a buzz, but some people think maybe the buzz was the cool part. The fact that it was like this off the beaten path city, and now I get to visit it and then leave. But I think it could still be this comedy tech booming place. It just will take some time and people want it right now.

• 1:17:52Lex Fridman?

  Well, on the tech side, it's, uh.

• 1:17:56Speaker 01

  It's already there?

• 1:17:57Lex Fridman?

  It's, it's, it's getting there very fast. So, I mean, Elon's really pushing that with the factory. It's just a huge number of people are moving there with jobs. Like, you're already starting. And then the opportunities to launch new companies is just incredible. I guess it's not right now, it's like within months, within a year, that kind of thing. But like, it's an opportunity to just start to build shit in a new place. And it's cool, it's kind of like, you know, go to Mars, like you get to start over.

• 1:18:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I like the hope aspect, I think that's huge for people. And, uh, I'm all for it, I hope it works out, I don't know if it will. But I don't know anything about economies and city planning and all that shit, so. It might be too early to say, but I hope it works.

• 1:18:45Lex Fridman?

  Are you still talking about Austin or Mars?

• 1:18:47Speaker 01

  Austin. Mars is eh, there's nothing there. There's no vagina there, there's no food there, there's no water there. I don't know. It seems, I get space travel. I think it's important, but I, I don't know Mars is really gonna move the needle.

• 1:19:05Lex Fridman?

  So what are your thoughts about Elon Musk and SpaceX and launching rockets into space?

• 1:19:10Speaker 01

  I think it's all good because you could say, hey, we could just feed everybody. And it was like, yeah, that's true. By the way, these guys give a ton of money to like philanthropy shit that nobody cares about. By the way, you know, it's weird like he can feed Nigeria and with pocket change of his and you're like, well, maybe he has. You know, like I heard Bill Gates gave back so much money. He saved 6 million lives.

• 1:19:32Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:32Speaker 01

  But that's a reverse Holocaust, by the way. That's pretty good. What have you done? You're a barista. So, uh, you know, I, I just think, uh, I think space travel is good because you learn about the place you're living in from going to space. It kind of helps you learn about this more. You could say, what's the point of going to this other there, but it, it, it does help, I think.

• 1:19:55Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. Doing difficult things in the engineering space seems to be a way to develop like as a, as almost like an accident. As a side effect of doing a really difficult thing in a team of brilliant people, you, you develop things like the internet. And you could argue that the internet may be not so good for society. No, I'm just kidding.

• 1:20:14Speaker 01

  It's good and bad.

• 1:20:15Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, but.

• 1:20:16Speaker 01

  But it's like a pull up. You're trying to get your bicep going, but hey, but before you know it, you got decent forearms. But you weren't working on the forearms. You wanted the buy, but you got the four. And I think that's kind of what space travel is.

• 1:20:27Lex Fridman?

  I like how this like pivoted into a, to a workout routine advice.

• 1:20:31Speaker 01

  I'm trying to get an analogy going here.

• 1:20:34Lex Fridman?

  All right. It worked pretty well.

• 1:20:35Speaker 01

  I'll take it.

• 1:20:36Lex Fridman?

  All right. What are your thoughts about, since I'm a robotics person, I'd be curious to see like what, um,

• 1:20:45Lex Fridman?

  Do you think about the space at all about first of all autonomous vehicles with Tesla autopilot and Waymo self-driving car? I'm not sure if you're familiar with all the autonomous vehicles and so on. So those are robots on wheels. And then there's also legged robots. So next time you're in Austin, you get to meet some of the legged robots.

• 1:21:05Speaker 01

  I would love to.

• 1:21:08Lex Fridman?

  Been working on. And I find those kind of a fascinating way to explore the nature of intelligence in our computers, but also explore our own intelligence and also explore our own, like what makes us connect to other living beings, whether it's dogs, cats, or other humans. Like, there's some magic there that's beyond just intelligence. And I, like, when I have the robot dog, there's some aspect to it that, I don't know, brings me joy in a way that a dog does, in a way that a good friend does.

• 1:21:47Speaker 01

  Really? Oh, that's interesting.

• 1:21:49Lex Fridman?

  And I'm not sure if that's some kind of anthropomorphism, like where I'm projecting my hopes for this, what this thing is, but.

• 1:21:57Speaker 01

  Maybe a little of that.

• 1:21:58Lex Fridman?

  But it's kind of built in. I mean, it's just a source of joy. Maybe it's connected to the fact that there's just like a loneliness within all of us, within me, and it's just nice to have other things in your life that move, that recognize you, that kind of thing. I mean, I suppose it's nice to even just have a plant.

• 1:22:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is. Plant goes a long way. You see a guy with plants in his apartment, it changes the apartment because they're alive. You gotta water them, you gotta put sun on them. So, yeah, I think there's something there. And I think you can see people's reactions when you show them advanced technology, like these dog robots or these robots that dance and shit. People are like, what the fuck? Like, it hits home in some way, whether it's fear or you want to fuck them, clearly, whatever it is, but it does connect with you in some way. So, uh, I'm with you. And I think this is why I don't think robots will take over. You always hear that, robot, they're making them too advanced, they're gonna wipe us out, blah, blah, blah.

• 1:22:55Speaker 01

  If robots get at human emotions, that is scary because they could, they could get mad at us and kill us and they're stronger and they don't need sleep. They don't need food. They don't need water. They don't get jealous. They don't, you know, but if they have emotions, then I think we can dominate them. Because who's had emotion, who knows emotions better than us? We've got thousands of years of evolutionary emotional bullshit. We can go, hey, robot, I heard you, uh, your wife fucked that black and decker, huh? They're gonna crumble. We can bully them.

• 1:23:24Lex Fridman?

  Emotionally manipulate robots?

• 1:23:26Speaker 01

  Yes, that's when we'll win. Right now, they could kill us. They could just, we'd all die and then we shoot them back, bing, bing, bing, bing. That's no good, but if they do get emotions, then we can go, hey, you're, you know, you look like hell. What is that, a rusty bolt? Hey, you're dropping some oil there, you know, you loser? I think we could win if we, if they do get emotions.

• 1:23:44Lex Fridman?

  This, this goes back to your father being able to undercut you with a single word.

• 1:23:48Speaker 01

  You're right.

• 1:23:49Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. So we're the creators of the robots and then the robots will just, you, you would say the, the exact thing.

• 1:23:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:55Lex Fridman?

  Where the robot would be like, that son of a bitch. And then he goes back to his hole and just sits there miserable.

• 1:24:02Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah. Hardware looks more like software to me. He can't get it up. Yada, yada, yada.

• 1:24:07Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:08Speaker 01

  But I'm not worried about robots and I think self, what do you think about the self-driving cars? Is that just wiping out the horse and buggy? Isn't that just progression of technology?

• 1:24:18Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. So I don't know if you've driven in a Tesla, for example?

• 1:24:21Speaker 01

  I have, I, I rode in the, uh, the passenger.

• 1:24:24Lex Fridman?

  The passenger. Yeah, there's several stages in that. I think it's, the problem is way harder than people realize. And for quite a while, it'll just make driving more pleasant. It'll make it less stressful. It'll take over some of the boring bits for you. It'll make it easier. Like there's something that happens actually when the car is driving for you in the following way. Like it's, it's staying in the lane. It's keeping distance to the car in front of you. Maybe it's changing lanes. It allows you to relax a little bit.

• 1:24:53Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:24:54Lex Fridman?

  You become, you still have to be alert, but you become like a passenger and you get to like take in the world. I mean, somehow that's more relaxing without making you necessarily like bored more. It's energizing more. So I just think it makes the driving experience more pleasant. But when you actually fully automate cars, when you can just completely tune out and start reading a book or go to sleep, that might change. Uh, society like in ways we don't even understand because you'll have.

• 1:25:27Lex Fridman?

  I mean, the, the, it'll probably change the nature of roads because the cars, because now you can be super productive.

• 1:25:33Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 1:25:35Lex Fridman?

  And so it no longer quite matters to you as much how long it takes to get from point A to point B, because you're not wasting that time. You just continue working.

• 1:25:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:46Lex Fridman?

  Uh, it's a public transit that comes to you.

• 1:25:48Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:25:49Lex Fridman?

  And so they, there will be maybe less roads and bigger roads and it'll just change the nature of how we get from point A to point B.

• 1:25:56Speaker 01

  I think you're right.

• 1:25:57Lex Fridman?

  But that then couple that also with the fact that we seem to be more and more comfortable existing in the digital world.

• 1:26:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:05Lex Fridman?

  So like, maybe we want, want to go outside more and more. We'll just interact with each other virtually. And I don't mean Zoom meetings. I mean, just in other ways. That's, uh, that's, that's more fulfilling than a Zoom meeting. There's, but then maybe not because like there's something deeply uncompelling about, about Zoom meetings. Like podcasts that are remote, unless they're super information dense, at least to me as a podcast fan, kind of suck.

• 1:26:33Speaker 01

  They suck. There's no connect. It goes back to the dog thing. With the Zoom, there's no connection.

• 1:26:38Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. And we're not, you know, I, I don't understand why the, we're not even making eye contact.

• 1:26:42Speaker 01

  I know. But it's just something there. It's in the room. There's pheromones and that's like, uh, uh, out of our understanding, probably. There's some kind of weird biological. You know, you ever have Cheerios in a bowl? The Cheerios tend to, they tend to go together. You see a cluster of Cheerios. They're never really hanging out on the other side. And that's kind of how people are in, in real life.

• 1:27:02Lex Fridman?

  I wonder what the physics of that is. So they, they, they come together and they stick.

• 1:27:06Speaker 01

  It's something with molecules.

• 1:27:08Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:08Speaker 01

  I don't, I can't remember what it was, but it was fascinating. And I think that's how people are. And I think you try to do, write a TV show or, or craft a movie with your team, Zoom, not, nothing there. It's like phone sex versus penetration.

• 1:27:24Speaker 01

  One day you'll learn that.

• 1:27:25Lex Fridman?

  I know nothing of either the, I look forward because I think there's a phone sex Netflix documentary.

• 1:27:30Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:27:31Lex Fridman?

  This is show or something like that, that is really popular. I want to go watch. At least I can learn about that.

• 1:27:38Speaker 01

  I could send you some links that could really.

• 1:27:40Lex Fridman?

  On the internet?

• 1:27:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:27:43Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:44Speaker 01

  But yeah, self-driving car, I think it's just inevitable. It's coming and these truckers are gonna have to figure something out.

• 1:27:51Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. I mean, that's, that's an under-understood industry, actually, because there's not, uh, there's a lot of trucking jobs.

• 1:27:58Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:27:58Lex Fridman?

  And people don't want to, well, people don't want to actually take them anymore because it's such a difficult job. So it won't have, or a lot of people believe it won't have as big of a negative impact as folks anticipate.

• 1:28:10Speaker 01

  Oh, good.

• 1:28:10Lex Fridman?

  There'll be other automation. I think they'll have a huge impact.

• 1:28:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure. I mean, you already see it in McDonald's. You go to the beep, beep, beep. Why do you want to get yelled at by the heavyset woman of color, you know, for making a bad order when you can just, you know, hit the screen? But those interactions, I think, are human. I mean, that's part of life. So it is scary taking away everything. How long till we're not fucking? That's coming, too.

• 1:28:34Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:35Speaker 01

  Then there's gonna have two, two types of people. Are you a fuck in real life? Or are you a digital fuck person? I'm a digital. I like real fucking. Sorry, we can't date. That's coming.

• 1:28:44Lex Fridman?

  Well, there's also the, the reproduction side of sex, which is like with genetic engineering, you'd be able to specify a little bit of details. I talked to Jamie Murso about that, like where you can,

• 1:29:00Lex Fridman?

  specify like, you know, it'll start with like, I want my child not to have like a high likelihood of diabetes or something like that. And then you get to specify like intelligence, you get to specify those kinds of parameters until you're like basically trying to create a perfect human and you lose some of the magic of the flaws that make us who we are.

• 1:29:22Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:29:23Lex Fridman?

  And, you know, I I'm pretty sure in the full lineup of humans, like, so let me give you some information.

• 1:29:32Speaker 01

  Lay it off me, fatty. Break it down.

• 1:29:35Lex Fridman?

  I'm sure, I'm sure you researched this thoroughly, but a male of the human species, of the Homo sapiens, produces 500 billion sperm cells in a lifetime. So that's all, some more than others. That's all uniquely genetically unique humans that you could produce. So even across those 500 billion, you can select.

• 1:30:04Speaker 01

  What do you mean, like abort some?

• 1:30:07Lex Fridman?

  No, you can choose which of them you want. I mean, just imagine all the genetic possibilities that are there, like all the possible, like you won the race.

• 1:30:17Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:30:19Speaker 01

  Shocking.

• 1:30:19Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, this is a winner.

• 1:30:21Speaker 01

  All the 500 billion?

• 1:30:22Lex Fridman?

  You have to imagine what the competition was.

• 1:30:24Speaker 01

  Oh, just tards all day long, handicap.

• 1:30:29Lex Fridman?

  Well, so it's not actually the fastest sperm or like it's, I think a lot of it's timing and luck. What it seems like, there's actual papers on this and I've actually been reading them.

• 1:30:40Speaker 01

  I hope so.

• 1:30:41Lex Fridman?

  So it's not just like the fastest sperm to the egg.

• 1:30:43Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:30:43Lex Fridman?

  There's a timing thing. So you're just lucky.

• 1:30:47Speaker 01

  All right. I believe that.

• 1:30:49Lex Fridman?

  So it's interesting to think about, like, once you're able to specify

• 1:30:55Lex Fridman?

  some parameters of what your child is like, how that changes the nature of even just like the intimacy of two humans getting together and making, creating together a child.

• 1:31:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:12Lex Fridman?

  I mean, it changes it. It's almost like, I don't know, it becomes like a factory.

• 1:31:18Lex Fridman?

  Line of some kind.

• 1:31:19Speaker 01

  If you don't meet naturally.

• 1:31:22Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, if you don't meet naturally and then you don't and you get get to optimize your child. Then it's.

• 1:31:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:29Lex Fridman?

  Then it's some like you have to consider utilitarian type of things like. What's good for society and it'll probably be regulation about what kind of children you can have or not. Like your child cannot have an IQ below this or above this or something like that. Or your child cannot.

• 1:31:45Speaker 01

  We already kind of do that with, you know. VIP clubs like, ah, you're kind of ugly or women go, hey, he's not tall enough. We kind of do it a little.

• 1:31:53Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:54Speaker 01

  Especially sexually.

• 1:31:55Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, we do.

• 1:31:56Speaker 01

  Can't get on the roller coaster if you're this short, whatever it is, you know, we do it in some capacity.

• 1:32:01Lex Fridman?

  But here this would be like. Fully transparent and to a degree that is hard to imagine. Like the way we currently do it, you can at least get around it.

• 1:32:13Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:32:13Lex Fridman?

  You can at least trick your way onto the roller coaster, even if you're short.

• 1:32:17Speaker 01

  Right. Or the fat guy can get rich so he can get laid, you know, there's other ways.

• 1:32:23Lex Fridman?

  At the risk of asking the totally wrong person this question, what advice would you give to young people today? In high school and college about how to have a successful career? Or career they're they're proud of, or maybe have a life that they're proud of.

• 1:32:40Speaker 01

  Oh. Well, first of all, you gotta be. You gotta want a life you're proud of. Not everybody has any integrity. People just, a lot of people just want short money. I want to feel good, look good right now. I want to do Molly. Boom, I'll feel good, you know? But you should. Space it out. You should. It's almost like saving money so you can use it later. Nobody wants to save money. What do they say? Like 11% of America actually has money saved? A thousand dollars or some shit. It's wildly low. Everybody wants it now. Now, what do you call it? Immediate gratification. I think. The key to happiness and satisfaction is working for something. Even if it's, it's like a baby.

• 1:33:24Speaker 01

  If you could have a baby in five minutes, if a woman, you got it, you jizzed in her and she had a baby, oh, five minutes, boom, newborn, healthy. I think he'd be more likely to throw it away. If you could make it that quick. It's the fact that you spent nine months backbreaking, the labor, the lactating, the ripped placenta, and the hymen, or whatever the fuck. That's what makes you love it. And I think it's the same with comedy, or making money, or whatever. Look at these kids who like child stars. They all become heroin addicts at like 22, because they've just, their sensors are burned out. Their pleasure sensors. You didn't have to earn it. I think earning it is a big part of life. And always try to do better, try to do more, try to learn new things. Hey, I'm bored, life sucks.

• 1:34:09Speaker 01

  Play the piano then, you chooch. But you won't do it, because it takes effort, and failure, and all that. But that's the good part. And I know it's hard to see. So I think that's a good key to life, is work hard at something you care about, and then love the result. The hard work, the journey, is actually way more important than just getting something. Everybody wants to go on Amazon, I got a package. Then you feel good for 10 seconds, and alright, let's go on Amazon again. And then you're just, it's just a dumb cycle of you being disgusting and gluttonous. So work for it. Everybody wants to take steroids and just, boop, I'm buff.

• 1:34:49Lex Fridman?

  Why'd you point at me?

• 1:34:50Speaker 01

  Well, I'm just saying.

• 1:34:50Lex Fridman?

  Cause I'm Russian, or what?

• 1:34:52Speaker 01

  Well, I saw the Icarus.

• 1:34:54Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:54Speaker 01

  But, no, I'm not saying you're on roids, I'm just, you'd be way bigger. But I'm just saying, you know, work for something. And then I would also, young people eat shit early. Eat shit early. I know a guy who kinda got canceled, or whatever. And he had an out, early, but he tried to get by, and he tried to ride it. And it all came crumbling down. But if he had eaten it early, like, yeah, I fucked up, I did that, whatever it was, he would've just kind of been shit on for a month, and then it would've gone away. But now it's his whole identity. And that sucks. So eat shit early, and I know it's hard to see, what I mean, early? I'm in the present. But look ahead, look back, this time will pass. I mean, look at high school.

• 1:35:38Speaker 01

  High school is the biggest thing in our lives. Oh my god, this exam, Suzie Q hates me, the football player beat me up, ah, I'll never recover. Now you don't even think about high school, it's just a blip in your dumb life, you know? And that's what this is now, this'll just be a blip. So remember that, and work towards something, and work hard, and...

• 1:35:58Speaker 01

  Care about the result. If the result isn't good, try it again. And failure is not always bad. Failure, we look at failure as this end all be all. My life's over, I failed. But failure is really just learning. So that's something.

• 1:36:11Lex Fridman?

  So in summary, eat shit early and eat shit often.

• 1:36:15Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:36:17Lex Fridman?

  All right. Mark Norman.

• 1:36:19Speaker 01

  Eat ass.

• 1:36:20Lex Fridman?

  That's escalated quickly. All right. I have a list of random questions for you. What activities make you lose track of time?

• 1:36:28Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:36:31Lex Fridman?

  Have that, go into that zone. You have this happiness, contentment about you that you just truly enjoy.

• 1:36:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think a good conversation, like I'll sit at the Comedy Cellar with friends. Maybe a little whiskey's flowing. And when you're really just vibing and inhibit, inhibit, in, in a bit.

• 1:36:50Lex Fridman?

  You can do it.

• 1:36:51Speaker 01

  What is it? Inhibited.

• 1:36:53Lex Fridman?

  Inhibited.

• 1:36:53Speaker 01

  Uninhibited.

• 1:36:54Lex Fridman?

  Uninhibited.

• 1:36:55Speaker 01

  When you're just vibing, you're uninhibited, you're saying crazy shit and you're laughing and you're not worried. Am I seeming cool right now? Am I seeming likable? When you're just you 100% and it's all coming out of you and then they're saying stuff and you go back and forth and you feel that excitement. Oh, they're talking, but I want to say my thing. And you know, you get all keyed up. I love that. And I look at my watch, I'm like, fuck, it's three in the morning. This, we've been talking for five hours. So I love that. That makes the time fly by. Also, I bought a, speaking of self-driving cars, I bought a 1973 BMW car. And it's classic and it's stick shift and it's grisly and gritty and rusty. And it's a bucket of bolts, but I love driving it.

• 1:37:35Lex Fridman?

  Bucket of bolts.

• 1:37:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:37Lex Fridman?

  You and Tom Waits are poets. Have you, have you taken like a long trip anywhere, like road trip in your life or with this BMW?

• 1:37:45Speaker 01

  Not with it. It's pretty new, but I will.

• 1:37:47Lex Fridman?

  It's, it's a new 1970s.

• 1:37:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. It's new to me. And it just, it, it, it goes in the phase of everything we're doing now. Everything is digital, everything is automated, everything is hands off, everything is delivered. And this is the most hands-on thing in the world. And I am dialed in, man. I got the tachometer, I keep an eye on that. Oh, I made, I put the wrong gear in, shit. Oh, it's about to stall, put some gas, put some clutch. And it's all just brain power and, and staying in focus and all that. And it's the opposite of tweeting and texting and watching porn or whatever. So I almost needed that in my life. So I bought this car just to have this little exercise.

• 1:38:28Lex Fridman?

  I hope you don't mind that I'm just trying out random questions I wrote on you that are completely, they're like completely insane.

• 1:38:35Speaker 01

  I'm a guinea pig, jizz in my face. Bring it on, baby.

• 1:38:39Lex Fridman?

  This would be edited down to five minutes.

• 1:38:41Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:38:41Lex Fridman?

  If everyone on earth disappeared and it was just you left, what would your days look like? What would you do?

• 1:38:50Speaker 01

  That's tough because I'm already an introvert and I try to avoid people mostly like I like a one on one. But crowds and all that is tough. So.

• 1:39:00Lex Fridman?

  So basically unchanged?

• 1:39:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's what I was gonna say. But then that's the irony is I would be so sad to not talk to anybody. So it's this weird, bittersweet thing, but I don't know what I would do, man. I guess it's kind of like when you're hung over. You just go into the primal survival mode. I gotta get food. I need water. I'm horny. Jerk off. You know, you just go, you're not like playing the piano or painting or at the gym. So I think I would just go into urges, man, primal urges. Find food, store food. Am I safe? Make weapons. Build a shelter that I can't get attacked in. I would go all survival mode. And then, once I maybe realized if I was safe or not, there's no wild roaming dogs, I would start exploring.

• 1:39:46Speaker 01

  And, you know, maybe somehow get a vehicle and I would try to expand and that would be it. And I maybe I'd journal.

• 1:39:54Lex Fridman?

  Exploring to what to try to find new experiences?

• 1:39:58Speaker 01

  New, new life. If there's other, maybe there is another guy out there.

• 1:40:02Lex Fridman?

  Oh, so always there's a possibility.

• 1:40:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, hope. And then maybe there's a better place I could live. Let's find that and then moving on. Then maybe there's more food over here. So yeah, the hope would drive me. But it would be bleak and sad and horrible also.

• 1:40:16Lex Fridman?

  So what you're saying is you really want other people to be there so you can hide from them as an introvert?

• 1:40:22Speaker 01

  Well said.

• 1:40:24Lex Fridman?

  All right. What, what's an item on your bucket list that you haven't done yet? Think about something you'd be very upset if you died and you haven't done.

• 1:40:33Speaker 01

  Well, I'm terrified of having kids, you know, just because I'm a child myself and I'm selfish and lazy in a way. So kids are like, this is your whole life now. This is it. You gotta not let this thing die. You gotta love it. You gotta raise it. So kids scare the shit out of me, but I also feel like if I don't have them, I'll, I'll, I'll regret it.

• 1:40:53Lex Fridman?

  Well, you've seen so many people like you who are fundamentally changed by kids.

• 1:40:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:58Lex Fridman?

  Like, like it's a source, it's a, it's a source of like a deep source of happiness, even though you didn't anticipate it.

• 1:41:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:06Lex Fridman?

  So you like, you penciled it into your bucket.

• 1:41:09Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 1:41:10Lex Fridman?

  You're, it might be on there. Okay.

• 1:41:12Speaker 01

  But you, you want kids?

• 1:41:13Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. Well, I want kids. I want to get married. I want to have kids. I kind of, I, I don't like choice. So in, in the following way, like I, I appreciate the value of scarcity and the power of scarcity. Like, I don't like the, the modern dating culture. It's not some religious thing, whatever. I just like one girl for a long time. Or at least swinging for that always, like swinging for the fences.

• 1:41:39Speaker 01

  But you could be swinging right now. I mean, you're.

• 1:41:41Lex Fridman?

  There's a different use of the word swinging.

• 1:41:43Speaker 01

  Sure, sure. But I'm saying you could be, you look great. You're handsome.

• 1:41:46Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, thank you.

• 1:41:47Speaker 01

  Muscular.

• 1:41:48Lex Fridman?

  Thank you.

• 1:41:48Speaker 01

  You, you get the job done. So I feel like you wouldn't leave without an orgasm on her.

• 1:41:51Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. But I just like to, you know, about furries, I like to dress up as animals and, and I just have trouble finding others who like the same.

• 1:41:59Speaker 01

  They're out there. I could show you some chat rooms.

• 1:42:01Lex Fridman?

  You're, you're also my coach for the internet. Okay.

• 1:42:05Lex Fridman?

  What are you most afraid of?

• 1:42:09Speaker 01

  I guess on unlived life, uh, I'm a, I'm always a big fan growing up of like wild guys, you know, like these Teddy Roosevelts who would go out and hunt lions and, uh, like bar fighting guys. I was obsessed with the Hunter S. Thompson types. And look, this is what I love about, uh, guys like, who's a good example? Like Hemingway. Hemingway was the manliest guy. He had the rifle and the elephant gun and the whiskey and the writing and the women and the fistfights. But the people forget that the other side of that coin is I'm sure he was in a lot of hotel rooms weeping. I'm sure he was lonely as fuck. I'm sure he had some wicked hangovers. I mean, he killed himself for Christ's sake. So obviously he was dealing with something.

• 1:42:52Speaker 01

  So the key to me is having this adventurous life, living to the fullest, doing crazy shit, scaring yourself, but also not killing yourself. Like also not hating, because I used to party a lot, hard, I used to bang a lot of gals. And the flip side is like, this girl hates you now, or you got herpes, or you're hungover, or your mom is like, where, where are you? You never called me anymore. You're like, oh, my mom, I let, let ties go with my mom, I gotta connect. So there's horrible, there's a horrible side to the party animal. The Keith Richards we don't see is not pretty. I mean, he's already weird looking, but he's partying, he's smoking, he's living, but there's another side of that coin.

• 1:43:34Speaker 01

  And I think the key to life is living that fucking crazy, awesome badass life and also having some, you know, meaning and, and a little bit of, uh, what's the word? Not, just not killing yourself, not going sad, not being depressed. There's a medium there, a sweet spot. Does that make sense?

• 1:43:55Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So taking big leaps and, uh, Hemingway, grabbing life by the balls, but at the same time not crushing the balls. Does that metaphor work at all?

• 1:44:05Speaker 01

  Perfect. Like Evel Knievel, we all know him. What a badass, fearless, oh man, what a cool dude, he's got balls of steel. But he also lived like the back half of his life in a fucking, uh, you know, barca lounger where his legs were made of steel and he couldn't see straight and his dick didn't work. So, you know what I mean? You've gotta have a balance. But you still want the balance. I'm willing to take a little bit of shit for a little bit of fun, but you don't want to go too hard.

• 1:44:34Lex Fridman?

  You gotta still risk it. I mean, Hunter S. Thompson, it didn't end well.

• 1:44:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:40Lex Fridman?

  It was quite a ride.

• 1:44:41Speaker 01

  Quite a ride.

• 1:44:43Lex Fridman?

  What small act of kindness were you once shown that you will never forget?

• 1:44:49Speaker 01

  Wow, that's a great question.

• 1:44:51Lex Fridman?

  You're, you're, I just wrote these for the Guinea pig. You're the Guinea pig.

• 1:44:55Speaker 01

  That's great. That's a keeper.

• 1:44:56Lex Fridman?

  Okay, that's a keeper? This is where like workshopping questions here.

• 1:44:59Speaker 01

  Alright, I'll take it. Now you're open miking.

• 1:45:01Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:02Speaker 01

  This is your version. Um, let's see. There's a couple ladies in high school who were kind enough to handjob me. That was nice, which I really appreciate. I don't think women know how much that means to us. You know, women are like, "I'm not a piece of meat," or whatever. And you're like, "I know, but if you just gave me a handjob, it would, it would make my world." It's like telling a kid he's smart or loved.

• 1:45:22Lex Fridman?

  See, most people mention like a math teacher in middle school that inspired them to get into science. You, you, it's, give a shout out to the...

• 1:45:30Speaker 01

  Well, that's part of it. That's not the nicest, but I'm just saying that goes a long way.

• 1:45:34Lex Fridman?

  Alright.

• 1:45:34Speaker 01

  Uh, let's see. Kindness. That's a great question. Uh, I want to give you a good answer. I, uh, I got lost when I was like six. I was walking around my dad and I'd zoned out and went away. And next thing you know, I don't know where I am. I'm in a neighborhood. This old guy finds me crying on a lawn somewhere and he goes, "Come inside," and he tried to call my parents and nothing came of it. Eventually, they found me. After like nine hours, cops were there, the FBI is out there, fucking helicopters. And I guess, you know, that's nice. This old guy took me in for a couple hours and just sat me down and kept me safe. That's something.

• 1:46:15Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:16Speaker 01

  Oh, how about Enis? My transvestite nanny. Very kind.

• 1:46:23Speaker 01

  He, uh, did you hear about this?

• 1:46:24Lex Fridman?

  No.

• 1:46:25Speaker 01

  Okay. We had this transvestite nanny. He was like a drag queen, but it was in the 90s. It was weird. It was new. And, uh, my bike got stolen and he, you know, my parents are like, "What are you gonna do? They're poor kids," you know? And he was like, "Fuck it, we're gonna go get that bike." And I was like, "This guy's in a wig and high heels, big black guy." And I'm like, "Uh, what are you gonna do?" You know, "It's gone." And he's like, "No, we're gonna go get it." So we got in the van and drove around my neighborhood, saw the kids fucking with the bike, you know, five street toughs. And, uh, he goes, "Alright, you want to come out or should I just do this?" And I was like, "You do it. I'm terrified. What are you, crazy?" And he got out of the van in full, you know, heels and wig.

• 1:47:09Speaker 01

  And he went up to these guys and they went off, oh my God, look at this fucking guy homo faggot. All this shit, you know, it's the nineties. And he just stared at him long enough to where they were kind of like, all right, well, I guess we're gonna fight you now. And he goes, uh, that's not your bike. And they go, what are you gonna do about it? And he puts his hand on the middle of the bike and they didn't do anything. And he just picked it up and said, that's what I thought. Put the bike over his shoulder, slid the van door open, threw the bike in and we drove off.

• 1:47:37Lex Fridman?

  Somebody stuck up for you.

• 1:47:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, and you know, I mean, he could have got, I mean, they're tools. They could have fucking tuned him up two seconds.

• 1:47:46Lex Fridman?

  That actually like takes courage.

• 1:47:48Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Real courage.

• 1:47:50Lex Fridman?

  And then that, the, the, the reason you do and act like that is that makes a kid like you feel like there's somebody on your side.

• 1:47:59Speaker 01

  Yes. Someone on your side is big.

• 1:48:02Lex Fridman?

  Is big.

• 1:48:02Speaker 01

  That goes a long way. Especially when they have a, the risk of getting their ass kicked or their job taken away or whatever it is.

• 1:48:11Lex Fridman?

  Now we're gonna get, uh, philosophical, maybe a little bit emotional.

• 1:48:19Lex Fridman?

  Would you rather lose all your old memories or never be able to make new ones?

• 1:48:28Speaker 01

  It's a tough one, but I'd go easy answer, make new ones.

• 1:48:32Lex Fridman?

  But don't you think all the shitty things that happened to you?

• 1:48:35Speaker 01

  Oh, so my hard drive is wiped clean. It's not, is it memories or is it how every memory affected me too?

• 1:48:43Lex Fridman?

  I mean, this is a very.

• 1:48:45Speaker 01

  Why do they go hand in hand?

• 1:48:46Lex Fridman?

  I, I think the reality about memories is you replay them often. You go back to them, even when you're not aware of it, you really go, you go back often like that.

• 1:48:56Speaker 01

  And they change, you change them too.

• 1:48:57Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, you change them to suit your understanding of the world.

• 1:49:01Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:49:02Lex Fridman?

  So, uh, the, the dark view you have, both the hope and the cynicism you have about the world is so deeply grounded in the, um, in the memories that you're basically, I would say if you erase all memories. I think you're really starting over. With maybe the wisdom of how the world works, but not your so much of your personality is gone. You would really.

• 1:49:31Lex Fridman?

  It'd be interesting how your comedy would change. Maybe you would have a good sense of timing. You have a good sense of like the writing process, maybe. But like.

• 1:49:42Speaker 01

  Now you're making some good points, but let me ask you this. Let's say I go to Lake Cuomo with my girlfriend.

• 1:49:48Speaker 01

  Now, like I wipe the memory or I keep my old memories. Let's say I go to, you know, the Tuscany with the lady.

• 1:49:54Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:56Speaker 01

  I just won't remember that.

• 1:49:57Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, but you get to experience it in the moment.

• 1:49:59Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:49:59Lex Fridman?

  You get to enjoy it.

• 1:50:00Speaker 01

  Can I look at a photo of it?

• 1:50:04Lex Fridman?

  Yes.

• 1:50:05Speaker 01

  But I would, what the hell is this?

• 1:50:06Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:50:06Speaker 01

  Oh, fascinating.

• 1:50:09Lex Fridman?

  It's exact. The rules are pretty simple.

• 1:50:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:11Lex Fridman?

  Everyone knows how the rules go. So you, you would, yeah. So what?

• 1:50:15Speaker 01

  Well, I was gonna say start new ones, but then I realized I wouldn't be who I was without them. That's what you're saying. So I guess I'd keep them because I am 38. So I've gotten a good chunk out of life.

• 1:50:27Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. And let's be honest, how many years do you have left?

• 1:50:30Speaker 01

  I know, right? I got AIDS.

• 1:50:33Lex Fridman?

  Is it better to have loved? Okay, this question is ridiculous. Is it better to have loved than lost? Or to have never loved at all? The, it sounds cliche, but there's a question.

• 1:50:43Speaker 01

  Definitely better to loss.

• 1:50:46Lex Fridman?

  So you enjoy the ups and downs.

• 1:50:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's what, that's life. Sun and rain, baby.

• 1:50:53Lex Fridman?

  I kind of like both, the whole thing, the, the loss. Every time you lose something, it really makes you distinctly realize how much you valued it.

• 1:51:03Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:51:04Lex Fridman?

  Like in my, when I'm sad, like when I'm feeling alone.

• 1:51:10Lex Fridman?

  And I'm sitting there alone at home. And I wish I could hang out with somebody. That's like a realization how awesome people are.

• 1:51:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:20Lex Fridman?

  So it's like the missing, the, yeah.

• 1:51:24Speaker 01

  We don't have a lot of that in life anymore because we can have anything we want immediately. So the missing has gone away, which again drives down the joy of having it. So I think you're right. You need both.

• 1:51:38Lex Fridman?

  Uh, so like you said, you have a condition that a terminal condition, not many years left. Do you think about your mortality?

• 1:51:44Speaker 01

  Oh, all day, every day.

• 1:51:47Lex Fridman?

  Are you afraid?

• 1:51:49Speaker 01

  Not afraid because it's inevitable. So it's more like, what are we, how are we going to handle this? It's like the winter is coming. Let's stock up on some fucking nuts.

• 1:51:59Lex Fridman?

  But the existential nature of it, like the fact that this ride ends, like what the hell are you doing any of this for? Like, is it?

• 1:52:05Speaker 01

  Satisfaction, happiness.

• 1:52:07Lex Fridman?

  Short term, but like the, there is a presumption there that it kind of goes on forever. I think if you truly think about the fact that it ends.

• 1:52:18Speaker 01

  Your brain almost shuts, shuts it down.

• 1:52:20Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, there's some kind of like protective, like a switch that just goes off. I mean, that's why the stoics, you know, encourage people to meditate on death because it somehow reorganizes your priorities. It helps you like, holy shit, this ends, make the most of the day.

• 1:52:37Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:52:38Lex Fridman?

  It's just a nice thing, but still you can't quite comprehend the thing ends.

• 1:52:43Speaker 01

  Little things too, you know, people go like, oh, we got a layover between our flights. It's an hour. What are we going to do for an hour? It's like, what do you mean? What are you going to do for an hour? You're going to kill an hour. Let's kill. How are we going to kill this hour? This is part of your life. You're just trying to get rid of it. You're just trying to kill it. That, that always blew my mind. Like, hey, fuck it. Let's get hit the, the airport bar. Let's get a, you know, a candy bar or something. Anything with bar, but it's just, you've got to live. I hate this. Like, how are we going to burn? Oh, the, the bar didn't open for 15 minutes. What are we going to do? Well, we got 15 minutes. We got, the world is our oyster.

• 1:53:16Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, make the most of it. And like the, like you said, in modern day, actually the boredom is a gift. Like the, when you're waiting for something, that's, that's, that's a gift. You get to be with your thoughts.

• 1:53:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:30Lex Fridman?

  Those, those are the same thoughts you'll have when you're on your deathbed. There, there won't be a.

• 1:53:36Lex Fridman?

  Uh, you won't be scrolling TikTok on your deathbed.

• 1:53:38Speaker 01

  I hope not, Jesus.

• 1:53:40Lex Fridman?

  You'd be a lot more, actually, maybe you would be.

• 1:53:42Speaker 01

  What a sad existence.

• 1:53:43Lex Fridman?

  Cause it would be a good, uh, like, content creators would be like, ooh, I'm dying. This would be good content.

• 1:53:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. I want to be able to sure film the exact moment it goes.

• 1:53:53Lex Fridman?

  Like last words. I wonder what my last words will be. Good way to like, end the, the account with a bang.

• 1:54:00Speaker 01

  Yep. I like that. Well, you know, you ever seen that meme where the old guy in bed, he goes, I wish I had tweeted more. You know, and then he dies. It's so true.

• 1:54:08Lex Fridman?

  Could be the future. Uh, what do you think is the meaning of life?

• 1:54:13Speaker 01

  I don't think there is one. Everybody always throws that out there. There isn't a meaning. I think we're here. We're lucky to be here. I think there's no afterlife. There's no heaven. That's, that's all shit we tell ourselves to feel better. And I think you gotta just, it's like saying, what is the meaning of this, uh, food I made? Well, it's just, you enjoy the food. You try to get the most out of it. You, you, you, you built the food. You, you were prepared it. So just get what you can out of it. Don't die and try to make it last as long as possible.

• 1:54:47Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, but you look at Earth. It's like four billion years old. And, uh, life started early on, like, like, simple cell bacteria life, like a one billion years in. And then it started like having lots of, uh, aggressive interaction. Eventually there's predator and prey and there's sex, lots of sex, lots of sex, lots of violence.

• 1:55:09Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:55:10Lex Fridman?

  Uh, and then, you know, through natural selection, there's just a whole evolutionary process of, of animals that have loved and lost and murdered and gotten murdered and all that kind of stuff. And it's somehow led to human civilization. We're super busy trying to create things and creating beautiful art, creating beautiful comedy.

• 1:55:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:55:29Lex Fridman?

  Uh, just always creating something new. It feels like it's tending towards something like.

• 1:55:35Speaker 01

  It's, it's not dying. If you die tomorrow, you still have all these hours of pods. So it's kind of, you're thinking you're cheating death in a subconscious way, I think.

• 1:55:44Lex Fridman?

  Right. You know who Ernest Becker is and?

• 1:55:47Speaker 01

  I've heard the name.

• 1:55:48Lex Fridman?

  Uh, it's a book called Denial of Death. This idea that, that, uh, if you don't acknowledge.

• 1:55:55Speaker 01

  Books on my shelf.

• 1:55:57Lex Fridman?

  Girls love it.

• 1:55:58Speaker 01

  Really?

• 1:55:59Lex Fridman?

  Dostoevsky, uh, no, I'm just, I'm saying, you want to bring Tolstoy, Dostoevsky, Russian literature. It's the back to norm. It's good to bring to, uh, cause, cause, uh, no American has read any Russian literature, but they all appreciate it if you bring it. And it's not like they're going to ask you any legitimate questions because they haven't read it.

• 1:56:17Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:56:17Lex Fridman?

  So you can always pretend like you've read it. So it's a

• 1:56:20Speaker 01

  A little dense. Can we get a shortened version?

• 1:56:23Lex Fridman?

  Cliff Notes.

• 1:56:24Speaker 01

  Yes, or make a movie with, uh, you know, Ben Stiller that I, that I can just go, oh, this is based on, what is it? Uh, Life and Death? No, what's the one? War and Peace.

• 1:56:34Lex Fridman?

  War and Peace.

• 1:56:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:56:35Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. So Ernest Becker's theory, and there's this whole terror management theory that basically says that like our terror of death, our fear of death is one of the central creative forces of the human condition. It's the reason we're trying to, yeah, cheat death. We're trying to dilute ourselves that somehow we can become immortal through our art. That's why you've uploaded your special to YouTube. Cause you think, you think your special will outlive all of human civilization. You think YouTube will outlive all of human civilization.

• 1:57:06Speaker 01

  That could go away tomorrow.

• 1:57:07Lex Fridman?

  That can go away tomorrow. All of this can go away. So I'm truly grateful, Mr. Mark Norman, that you would spend your very valuable time with me today, even though it could all go away. This could be the, uh, the last day of our lives. And won't you be quite upset? This is how you spent it.

• 1:57:25Speaker 01

  Ah, yeah. You're a hotelero. What am I? You're like Harvey Weinstein here. You worded me up and now I feel fucked.

• 1:57:32Lex Fridman?

  Just wait what we, uh, have ready for you after the podcast is over. All right, brother. Thanks so much for talking today.

• 1:57:39Speaker 01

  Thank you. It was great. Comedy.

• 1:57:42Lex Fridman?

  Thanks for listening to this conversation with Mark Norman. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now let me leave you with some words from Mark Norman himself on his Twitter, which you should definitely follow because it's hilarious. The worst thing about getting Omicron for Christmas is you know, it was re-gifted. Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.