#158 – Zev Weinstein: The Next Generation of Big Ideas and Brave Minds

Zev Weinstein is a young man who thinks deeply about the world. Please support this podcast by checking out our sponsors: – ExpressVPN: https://expressvpn.com/lexpod and use code LexPod to get 3 months free – Grammarly: https://grammarly.com/lex to get 20% off premium – SimpliSafe: https://simplisafe.com/lex and use code LEX to get a free security camera – Magic Spoon: https://magicspoon.com/lex and use code LEX to get $5 off EPISODE LINKS: Zev’s YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/GenerationZW Zev’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/zev__weinstein Zev’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/zev_weinstein/ PODCAST INFO: Podcast website: https://lexfridman.com/podcast Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/2lwqZIr Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2nEwCF8 RSS: https://lexfridman.com/feed/podcast/ YouTube Full Episodes: https://youtube.com/lexfridman YouTube Clips: https://youtube.com/lexclips SUPPORT & CONNECT: – Check out the sponsors above, it’s the best way to support this podcast – Support on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/lexfridman – Twitter: https://twitter.com/lexfridman – Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lexfridman – LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lexfridman – Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/LexFridmanPage – Medium: https://medium.com/@lexfridman OUTLINE: Here’s the timestamps for the episode. On some podcast players you should be able to click the timestamp to jump to that time. (00:00) – Introduction (06:52) – Philosophy becomes dangerous in difficult times (12:15) – The power of radical ideas (17:06) – Changing your mind (21:19) – Fear (22:58) – Labels (28:02) – Thomas Aquinas (32:32) – Nietzsche (37:02) – Nature of truth (39:22) – Jordan Peterson (44:54) – Mediums of communication (53:24) – Free will (57:48) – Simulation (1:02:05) – Transcending the limits of human life (1:05:09) – Elon Musk (1:09:30) – Aliens (1:13:01) – Is math invented or discovered? (1:15:36) – Theory of everything (1:17:30) – Eric Weinstein as a dad (1:33:17) – Music (1:40:32) – Advice for young people (1:42:31) – Mortality (1:46:19) – Meaning of life

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Lex Fridman?

  The following is a conversation with Zev Weinstein, a young man with a brilliant, bold, and hopeful mind that I had the great fortune of talking to on a recent afternoon. He happens to be Eric Weinstein's son, but I invited Zev not because of that, but because I got a chance to listen to him speak on a few occasions and was captivated by how deeply he thought about this world at such a young age. And I thought that it might be fun to explore this world of ours together with him for a time through this conversation. Quick mention of our sponsors: ExpressVPN, Grammarly Grammar Assistant, Simply Safe Home Security, and Magic Spoon Low Carb Cereal.

• 0:41Lex Fridman?

  So the choice is privacy, grammar, safety, or health. Choose wisely, my friends, and if you wish, click the sponsor links below to get a discount to support this podcast. As a side note, let me say that Zev acknowledges the fear associated with participating in public discourse and is brave enough to join in at a young age, to push forward, to change his mind publicly, to learn, to articulate difficult nuanced ideas, and grow from the conversations that follow. In this, I hope he leads the next generation of minds that is joining and steering the collective intelligence of this big ant colony we think of as our human civilization.

• 1:23Lex Fridman?

  If you enjoy this thing, subscribe on YouTube, review it on Apple Podcasts, follow on Spotify, support on Patreon, or connect with me on Twitter at Lex Fridman. As usual, I'll do a few minutes of ads now and no ads in the middle. I try to make these interesting. I probably fail most of the time, but I do give you timestamps, so if you skip, if you must do so, please still check out the sponsors by clicking the links in the description. It is the best way to support this podcast. This show is brought to you by ExpressVPN, a company that adds layers of protection between your online life and a small number of big technology companies that control much of the internet. ExpressVPN hides your IP address,

• 2:07Lex Fridman?

  the thing that can be used to personally identify you, and it also makes your activity harder to trace and sell to advertisers. ExpressVPN also encrypts your internet data to keep you safe from eavesdroppers on your network. And it does all of this without slowing your connection. I've used it for many years, long before they were a sponsor, and I did so, still do so, on Windows, Linux, and Android. But it's available everywhere else, too. For me, it's been fast and easy to use. One big power on button that's fun to press, probably my favorite intuitive design for an app. Doesn't try to do more than it needs to. Just specify location, press the button.

• 2:49Lex Fridman?

  It's like if Khabib Nurmagomedov was an app. Send location. Go to expressvpn.com/lexpod to get an extra three months free on a one-year package. That's expressvpn.com/lexpod. This show is sponsored by Grammarly, a writing assistant tool that checks spelling, grammar, sentence structure, and readability. Grammarly Premium, the version you pay for, offers a bunch of features over their already very good spelling and grammar check. My favorite premium feature is probably the clarity check, which helps ensure that my writing is more to the point. In general, this is a skill that's important to develop without the help of a tool,

• 3:32Lex Fridman?

  but it's a good way to practice by having a kind of a brainstorm with an AI system about your writing. Writing is a lonely process. Think of Grammarly as a little AI friend, like Microsoft Clippy, but smarter, though less lovable. It integrates easily into basically anywhere people usually write things. Like for me, it's Gmail and Google Docs. I find myself going against the advice of Grammarly on occasion, but that's actually a good teachable moment, since this kind of inner argument process is helpful to solidify why I'm going against convention. Brevity and clarity may require that we bend the rules of language.

• 4:13Lex Fridman?

  Elevate your writing with 20% off Grammarly Premium by signing up at grammarly.com/lex. That's 20% off Grammarly Premium at grammarly.com/lex. This show is also sponsored by SimpliSafe, a home security company. SimpliSafe home security protects your home around the clock, whether it's from a break-in, a fire, flooding, or a medical emergency. All it takes is a simple 30-minute setup. You'll even get a free security camera when you sign up. I have it set up in my apartment, but unfortunately, anyone who tries to break in will be very disappointed by the lack of interesting stuff to take. Some dumbbells, pull-up bar, and suits and shirts.

• 4:58Lex Fridman?

  Anyway, US News and World report named SimpliSafe best overall home security of 2020. You set SimpliSafe up yourself in a few minutes without any tools and wiring. Plus, there's no contract, no hidden fees, and no installation costs. No funny stuff, Lebowski, like the nihilists say in the movie Big Lebowski. You also get a 60-day risk-free trial, so there's nothing to lose. Go to simplisafe.com/lex to get a free security camera. Again, that's simplisafe.com/lex. This episode is sponsored by Magic Spoon Low Carb Keto-Friendly Cereal. I've been on a mix of keto or carnivore for a long time now. That means very few carbs. I do binge eat cherries, or blueberries, or apples.

• 5:43Lex Fridman?

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• 6:28Lex Fridman?

  And now here's my conversation with Zev Weinstein.

• 6:52Lex Fridman?

  You've said that philosophy becomes more dangerous in difficult times. What do you mean by that?

• 6:58Speaker 01

  Interestingly, I think I mean two things by that. And I think firstly, I should clarify, when I say philosophy, I sort of mean in a very traditional sense, just thinking, ideation. And that could be reconsidering our notions of self in a very traditional sense, which we consider philosophy, or that could be like technological innovation. I think it's important to recognize all of these as philosophies that we can not question whether it's important to promote thought. I think the other thing I should clarify is when I say difficult times, I mean times when nothing is growing.

• 7:39Speaker 01

  And so the risk for real conflict is much greater because people are incentivized to fight over the things which already exist. I think when times are not difficult, the people with the greatest power are usually the people who are very creative, generating a lot. And that really requires ideation or philosophy of some sort. I think when times become stagnant, the important, successful people become the people who are very good at protecting their own pieces of the pie and taking others.

• 8:21Speaker 01

  I think that those people have to be very opposed to any sort of thinking that could restructure society, our conventions about who should succeed. And so firstly, I mean by that, that it becomes much more dangerous, dangerous for a person to think deeply and question during a time when the important people are those concerned with making sure no one rocks the boat. You know, one example of this would be like Socrates and his execution, because everyone was happy enough to sit through his questions before there was war

• 9:04Speaker 01

  and poverty and distress. And afterwards, it just became too dangerous. The other thing I mean by that is that the consequences of thinking deeply carry much greater potential for real catastrophe when everyone is desperate. So like, for example, the Communist Manifesto was probably much more dangerous during early 1900s Russia than it was during the 1848 revolutions, because I think people were in much worse shape. And desperate people are very willing to dive into anything new that might bring the future without fully calculating whatever

• 9:47Speaker 01

  the consequences or risks might be. So it is both more dangerous for a person to have creative ideas, and those ideas are more dangerous when, when times are tough.

• 10:00Lex Fridman?

  And by dangerous, you mean it challenges the people with power who don't, who want to maintain that power in times of stagnation, when there's not much growth, innovation, creativity, all that kind of stuff?

• 10:15Speaker 01

  Right. And we know that if nothing new is created, people have promises that they've made about what will be paid to whom, what debt structure is. The only possibility, if stagnation lasts for long enough, is really some kind of great conflict, great war, because people have to take from others to make good on their own promises. So we know that by denying any sort of grand ideation, we are accepting that

• 10:49Speaker 01

  There will be some kind of great catastrophe. And so we have to understand that philosophy is the most important. When we've seen too much stagnation for too long. It is also very dangerous and it's dangerous for the people who are doing it. And it's dangerous for the people who believe it, but it's kind of our only way out ever.

• 11:13Lex Fridman?

  And again, by philosophy, you mean the bigger, so it's not academic philosophy or this kind of games played in the, in the space of just like moral philosophy and all those metaphysics, all that kind of stuff. You mean just thinking deeply about this world, thinking from first principles. I think your like Twitter line involves something about like.

• 11:35Speaker 01

  Trying to piece everything together from first principles.

• 11:38Lex Fridman?

  So that's, that's fundamentally what being philosophical about this world is. And that's where the people who are thinking deeply about this world are the ones who are feeding, who are the catalyst of this growth in society and so on.

• 11:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I mean, I also think that the real implication of moral philosophy can be something that most would consider like a real political implication. So I think all philosophy really ties together because there has to be some sort of grand structure to all thought and how it relates.

• 12:15Lex Fridman?

  Do you think this growth and innovation and improvement can last forever? We've seen some incredible, you know, the thing that humans have been able to accomplish over the past several hundred years is just, I mean, awe inspiring. And every moment in that, in that history, it almost seemed like no more could be done. Like we've, we've solved all the problems that are to be solved. And there's just historically, there's all these kind of ridiculous like Bill Gates style quotes where like it's obvious that we've, this new cool thing is not going to take off. And yet it does. And so there's, there is a feeling of the same kind of pattern that

• 13:00Lex Fridman?

  we see in Moore's law. There's constant growth in different technologies in the modern day era, in any kind of automation over the past hundred years. Do you think it's possible that we'll keep growing this way if we give power to the philosophers of our society?

• 13:15Speaker 01

  I think the only way that we can keep growing this way is if we give power to real thinkers. And there's no guarantee that that will work, but we sort of don't have any other choice. And I think you're entirely right that this period of both understanding the universe at a rate which has, has never been seen before, and invention and creativity, that these past hundred years have been sort of uncharacteristic for the level of growth that we've seen in all of history. We've never seen anything like this. And I think

• 13:55Speaker 01

  a lot of our, a lot of our promises rest on this sort of thing continuing. I think that's very, that's very dangerous. But the one thing that can get us out of this is philosophy and being ready to radically restructure all of our notions about what should be, what is. I think that's very important.

• 14:20Lex Fridman?

  So you think deeply about this world. You are clearly this embodiment of a think of a philosopher. Your dad is also one such guy, Eric Weinstein. Do you just, do you have big disagreements with him on this topic in particular? I think, now people should know, he also happens to be in the room, but the mics can't pick him up, so he can heckle. It doesn't even matter. But do you have disagreements with him on this point? Let me try to summarize his argument that we are actually based, a lot of our American society, on the belief that things will keep growing. And yet.

• 15:01Lex Fridman?

  It seems that however you break it apart, maybe from an economics perspective, that they're not growing currently. And so that's where a lot of our troubles are at. Do you have the same sense that things, there's a stagnation period that we're living through over the past couple of decades?

• 15:16Speaker 01

  I think stagnation, modern stagnation is completely undeniable, particularly scientifically. And I think there have been a few fields where tremendous progress has been made very recently. I think my dad might feel that there is sort of an inevitability to the ending of this period. And I'm not so certain, so certain that the fall of this great time is completely inevitable, because I don't know what thoughts we're capable of producing, what we're able to reconsider.

• 15:58Speaker 01

  I think we really have to be open to the possibility that all of our standard frameworks, where, you know, like he will talk about embedded growth obligations. If we continue within the same framework, then we're very susceptible to the dangers of whatever these embedded growth obligations are. I think if we break the frameworks, we have no reason to believe that the problems we're experiencing with our current frameworks will, will follow us. And I think that's the importance of radical thought is we don't know what the solution is, but if there is a solution, it will be born from some very fundamental thinking. And so I've, I have great hope.

• 16:38Lex Fridman?

  So you have optimism about sort of the power of a single radical idea or a single radical thinker to break our frameworks and break us out of this like spiral down due to whatever the, the economic forces that are creating this current stagnation?

• 16:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm very, very hopeful.

• 17:01Lex Fridman?

  The optimism of you. Well, I share, I share your optimism. So let me, let me come back to something you've also talked about. You have very little stuff out there currently, but the things you have out there, your thoughts, you could just tell how deeply you think about this world. And one of the things you mentioned is as you learn. About this world is that you, as you read, as you sort of go through different experiences that you, that you're open to changing your mind. How often do you find yourself changing your mind? Do you think Zev from 10 years into the future will look back at like at this conversation we're having now and disagree completely with everything you just said?

• 17:46Speaker 01

  It's entirely possible, and that's one of the things that scares me so much about appearing publicly. I think that the internet can be very intolerant of inconsistency. And I am entirely prepared to be very inconsistent because I know that whatever beliefs I have when subjected to scrutiny may change because that's, that's really the only way to, to form your truest, most fundamental conceptions about the world around you. And it would take an infinite amount of time to subject every single one of your beliefs to scrutiny.

• 18:26Speaker 01

  And so that's a, a process that must follow me throughout my entire life. And I know that means that my opinions and perspectives are always to be changing. I'm prepared to accept that about myself, whether other people are prepared to accept that my, uh, public opinions may, may change and vary greatly over time is something I, I don't know. I don't know how tolerant the, the world will be, but I'm very prepared to change anything I, I believe in if I think deeply enough about it or a good enough argument

• 19:10Speaker 01

  is made so that I, I might reconsider.

• 19:13Lex Fridman?

  Well, that's, there certainly is currently an intolerance and that's one of the, one of the problems of our age, there's an intolerance towards change. And I'll also ask you about labels you talked about, so we like to bin each other into different categories. The blue or red or whatever the different categorization is. But it seems like the task before you as a young person defining our future is to make a tolerance of change the the norm. Doing this podcast, for example, and then changing your mind one or two years later and doing so publicly without a big dramatic thing, or maybe changing it on a daily basis. Uh, and just being open about it and being transparent about your thought process.

• 19:57Lex Fridman?

  Maybe that is the beacon of hope for the philosophical way, uh, the path of the philosopher. So that's your task in in a sense is to change your mind openly and bravely.

• 20:12Speaker 01

  You know, you're right, and maybe I will just have to endure some sort of criticism for doing that, but I think that's very important. I think this ties back to this previous facet of our conversation where we were discussing if, uh, you know, thinkers would win over systems that are devoted to preventing radical thought, or if, uh, you know, who will win the the systems or the or the thinkers. I think it's crucial that my generation, uh, take up a hand in this fight. And I think it's important that I'm a part of that because I know that I have some opportunity to, um.

• 20:57Speaker 01

  There is, I think it is my obligation as a member of a generation whose only real hope is to think outside of a system because whatever systems exist are collapsing. I think it is really my my obligation to try to play some role, whatever role I can in being an instrument, uh, in in that change.

• 21:19Lex Fridman?

  Are you, uh, as a young mind, do you have a sense of fear about just like, how afraid were you to do this podcast conversation? Do you have a sense of fear of thinking publicly?

• 21:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't even think that that fear is irrational. It's very difficult to exist publicly in any form now because it's very easy for anyone to take cheap shots at something which is difficult. And as I said, the people who are trying to have the difficult ideas and conversations are perhaps putting others in actual danger because everyone is so desperate that they might be willing to try anything. So there's a certain amount of responsibility which one has to take going before the public.

• 22:16Speaker 01

  And there is a certain amount of ridicule, which will be completely unwarranted, that anyone must endure for it. And I think that means that one has to be afraid because they could both ruin the world and be ruined by the world in an unwarranted and undeserved fashion. I would like to believe in myself enough to try to accept this as a task because I think people need to try or there's no getting out of this and we will end in some kind of crazy brilliant war.

• 22:57Lex Fridman?

  Awfully put. You've said also that in these times we can't have labels because it holds us back. Maybe we've already talked about it a little bit, but this idea of labels is really interesting. Why do you think labels hold us back?

• 23:12Speaker 01

  Well, I think many underestimate the extent to which language and communication really impacts and shapes the ideas and thoughts which are being communicated. And I think if we're willing to accept imperfect labels to categorize particular people or thoughts, in some sense, we are corrupting an abstraction in order to represent it and communicate about it. And I think, as we've discussed, those abstractions are particularly important when everything is on fire.

• 23:57Speaker 01

  We should not be sacrificing

• 24:02Speaker 01

  grand thought for the ability to express it. I think everyone should work much harder, including myself, to really be thinking abstractly in abstract terms instead of using concrete terms to discuss abstraction while ruining it slightly.

• 24:21Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, it's a it's kind of a skill, actually. So one really difficult example of in this in the recent time that maybe you can comment on if you have been thinking about is just politics. And there's a lot of labels in politics that it takes a lot of skill to be able to communicate difficult ideas without labels being attached to you. That's something I've been sort of thinking about a lot in trying to express, for example, how much I love various aspects of the foundational ideas of this country, like freedom. And just saying, I love America. A simple statement, I love the ideas that we're finding to America.

• 25:06Lex Fridman?

  Well, often in the current time, where people will try, desperately try to attach a label to me, for example, for saying, I love America, then I'm a Republican, a Donald Trump supporter. And it takes elegance and grace and skill to like to like avoid those labels so that people can actually listen to the contents of your words versus the summarization that results from just the labels that they can pin on you. Are you cognizant of the skill required there of being able to communicate without being branded the Republican or Democrat in this particular set of conversations? I'm sure there's other dangerous labels that could be attached.

• 25:51Speaker 01

  I don't think there's any way of avoiding that right now. It might not be anyone's best effort to really try. I think the thing I can say which will most speak to that, which I truly believe, is that participating in modern conventional politics is not being inherently political in a generative sense. It's this repeated trope where politics now is not about creating new political ideologies. It's about defending ideologies which already exist so that everyone can keep what they have.

• 26:34Speaker 01

  And that's where all of the name-calling and the labeling really comes in. It's an attempt to constrict whatever may be generated to standard conversations and discussions so that arguments can be straw-manned and defeated and people can keep what they have because everyone's very, very scared.

• 27:02Speaker 01

  I want to be very political, but not in a standard political sense where I'm defending a particular party or place on a spectrum. I would like to play some role in inventing new spectrums, and I think that's most important politically because above most else, politics is about real power and conventional politicians have real power. And that power will find terrible outlets if new spectrums for that power to live are not invented. So you're not afraid of politics, political discourse?

• 27:43Lex Fridman?

  At the deepest, richest level of what political discourse is supposed to mean.

• 27:48Speaker 01

  Actually, I'm very afraid of it, but once again, we have no.

• 27:52Lex Fridman?

  That's not paralyzing for you, that you feel like it's a responsibility you're ready to take it on.

• 27:57Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 27:58Lex Fridman?

  This is a good sign. This is, you're a special human. Okay, let's talk, maybe fun, maybe profound. We talked about philosophers, philosophy. Who's your favorite philosopher? Like, somebody in your current time, but neither influential, or you just enjoy

• 28:18Lex Fridman?

  his/her ideas, or writing, or anything like that?

• 28:22Speaker 01

  Weirdly, I'll give an answer which sort of doesn't have much to do with whom I might imagine myself to be. I like Thomas Aquinas at the moment. I think he's very inspirational to me, given what we're going through. And that's not because his particular ideas of religion, or God, or unmoved movers are particularly inspirational to me, and I don't even think they were necessarily right. But he was introducing

• 29:03Speaker 01

  aspects of the scientific method during one of the darkest periods in human history, when we had lost all hope and reason and ability to think logically. So I think he was really something of a light in the dark, and I think we need to look to people like that at the moment. The other reason why I think I need to need to learn from him is that even though he was doing something which really needed to be done, and introducing scientific thought and reason to a time that lacked it. He was not

• 29:45Speaker 01

  saying anything that would have been offensive to whatever powers were in play during his time. He was writing about, you know, the importance of faith in God and how we could prove it. And so it's important to remember, I suppose, that having

• 30:07Speaker 01

  Ideas that shape the world and which bring the world closer to what we can prove it's supposed to be and how it's supposed to work does not always take some sort of grand contradiction of whatever's in play. And the most courageous thing to do may not always be the most helpful thing to do. And I think it's, it's very easy for anyone with ideas about how everything is, is broken to become very cynical and say, oh, the system, man, they're, they're all wrong.

• 30:39Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 30:40Speaker 01

  Um, I think it takes another kind of discipline to be a person with real ideas and to make the world better without stepping on anyone's toes or contradicting anyone. I have real respect for that.

• 30:56Lex Fridman?

  So being able to be, when it's within your principles, to operate within the current system of thought.

• 31:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, and not, not offend anyone, not say anything outlandish, but introduce the method by which progress must be achieved. I think that takes a kind of maturity, which is found very rarely now. And I really look to him for inspiration, despite whatever disagreements I may have with the minute details of his philosophy.

• 31:29Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, it takes a lot of skill, a lot of character and yeah, deep thinking to be able to operate within the system when needed and having the fortitude and just the boldness to step outside and to burn the system down when needed, but rarely. And opportune moments that would actually have impact. I mean, it's ultimately about impact within the society that you live in, not just making a statement that has no impact.

• 31:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. And we were talking about how dangerous it is to do real philosophy at, at dangerous, broken times. He was going through the most broken time in history and he.

• 32:15Speaker 01

  Questioned the the methods which made a broken system able to survive. And he was so skilled and so graceful that he became a saint in that tradition. And there's something for me to really learn from there.

• 32:32Lex Fridman?

  Do you draw any inspiration, have any interest in the sort of more modern philosophers? Maybe the existentialists? I mean, Nietzsche is one of the early ones. Do you have thoughts on the guy in general? Or any of the other existentialists?

• 32:47Speaker 01

  Well, with regard to Nietzsche, I think, I think Yates might have said that he's the worst. You know, he was, he was certainly filled with, with passionate intensity.

• 32:59Lex Fridman?

  Was that a compliment? He was the worst or a criticism?

• 33:05Speaker 01

  Yates had this, had this big line, the, the best lack all conviction. The worst are filled with passionate, passionate intensity. So, um, I think Nietzsche was, was destroyed by the horrors of everything that, uh, that went on around him. And I think he never really recovered from it. I think that's because if you think about Nietzsche's philosophy, he was very opposed to any sort of acceptance of what one had. One should always envy those who have more and use that envy to, uh, to fuel their, their growth

• 33:50Speaker 01

  and become, you know, accept whatever the, the human condition and desires are. And use, use those desires to want more and more and, and make use of your greed. I think it's very difficult to be truly happy if the thing which you.

• 34:15Speaker 01

  The thing which you pride yourself most on is never being satisfied. And I think Nietzsche was never satisfied, and that was the danger of his philosophy. I think also with his amoralism, you know, there is no good or evil. I sort of disagree with that on a pretty fundamental basis. I think that our notion of morality is by no means subjective. It's really the proxy for the fitness of a society. I think whatever we consider ethical, like, don't steal, don't murder, don't do this.

• 34:58Speaker 01

  Societies have a very difficult time running. It's very hard to run a civilization when everyone is stealing from everyone else and people are murdering each other and committing these things, which we would consider atrocities. So I think we also, we know this because I think very similar notions of morality have evolved convergently from different traditions. I think good is a proxy for a civilization's fitness.

• 35:35Speaker 01

  And the good news is that that means that evil in being anathema to that good must therefore be the opposite of stable in whatever way that it's evil. And that means that good will always be more stable than evil. And the only way evil can really win is like if everyone dies. So.

• 36:02Lex Fridman?

  So wait, can you say, can you say that again? Good is a proxy for society's what?

• 36:07Speaker 01

  Good is a proxy for the stability and fitness of a civilization.

• 36:12Lex Fridman?

  And evil. Damn, that's a good definition.

• 36:14Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 36:14Lex Fridman?

  So you're throwing some bombs today. Okay, all right. Okay, this is exciting. Sorry, sorry, interrupt your flow there, but it's just a good, damn good line.

• 36:26Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 36:28Lex Fridman?

  So in that sense, that's a kind of optimistic view that if by definition good is a proxy for stability, then it's going to be stable unless the entire world just blows itself up. So good wins in the end by definition.

• 36:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:42Lex Fridman?

  Or, uh, no, actually, well, good wins unless it all goes to uh, complete destruction. Beautiful, that's beautifully put.

• 36:53Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 36:54Lex Fridman?

  On the topic of, um, sort of, you know, good and evil being human illusions. You've said that, uh, more broadly than that about truth. That it is easier in some ways to be unified under truth because it is universal than it is to be unified under belief, which at times can be completely subjective. So what is the nature of truth to you? Can, can we understand the world objectively? Or is most of what we can understand about the world is just uh, subjective opinions that we kind of all agree on in these little collectives and over time it kind of evolves. You completely detached from objective reality.

• 37:39Speaker 01

  I think this is the greatest argument for objectivity. Uh, is that something that is objectively true cannot be true to me and untrue to, to you. You can feel that it's, that it's untrue, but that would be unproductive and create unnecessary tension and conflict. I think this is one reason for the importance of science as a tool for stability. If science is the search for truth, um, and truth can never really be, I shouldn't say that.

• 38:22Speaker 01

  Truth should never be an engine, uh, of conflict because no two people should disagree on something which is objectively true. Then in some sense, search for truth is searching for a common ground where we can all exist and live without, uh, contradicting or attacking each other.

• 38:45Lex Fridman?

  Do you ever hope that there is a lot of common ground to be discovered?

• 38:49Speaker 01

  Sure. I mean, if we continue scientifically, uh,

• 38:54Speaker 01

  We are discovering truth and in that discovering common ground on which we can all agree. That's that's one reason why I think caring about science. If you have a culture which cares very deeply about science, that's a culture which is not necessarily bound to endure unwarranted internal conflict. I think that's one reason that I'm so passionate about science is its search for universal ground.

• 39:22Lex Fridman?

  Let me just throw out an example of a modern day philosophical thinker. We'll keep your dad, Eric Weinstein, out of the picture for a second. But he does happen to be an example of one. But Jordan Peterson is an example of another, somebody who thinks deeply about this world. His ideas are by a certain percent of the population, sort of speaking of truth, are labeled as dangerous. Why do you think his ideas or just ideas of these kinds of deep thinkers in general are labeled as dangerous in our modern world? Is it similar to what you've been discussing? That in difficult times philosophers become dangerous?

• 40:04Lex Fridman?

  Or is there something specific about these particular thinkers in our time?

• 40:08Speaker 01

  Well, I think Jordan Peterson is very anti-establishment in a lot of his beliefs. He's an unconventional thinker. And I think we need, regardless of whatever Jordan's particular views and beliefs are, and if they bring about more danger than truth, or if they don't, it's very important to have fundamental thinkers who exist outside of a conventional framework. So do I think that he's dangerous?

• 40:47Speaker 01

  I think by existing outside of a system which is known, he is dangerous. And I think we have to, in some sense, we have to welcome danger in that capacity because it will be our only way out of this. So I'm, regardless of whether his beliefs are...

• 41:14Speaker 01

  Right or wrong, I'm pretty adamant about the fact that we need to support

• 41:23Speaker 01

  thought which may rescue us.

• 41:25Lex Fridman?

  And that thought can appear radical or dangerous at times, but ultimately, if you allow for it, this is kind of the difficult discussion of free speech and so on, is ultimately difficult ideas will pave the way for progress.

• 41:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I'd actually, I'd like to, to slow you down there because I think, like, one of the issues we were discussing previously was the fact that language often destroys our ability to think.

• 42:01Speaker 01

  When we're talking about whether his ideas are radical, I don't know if we, if we mean radical in the traditional sense of having to, to do with the root of a problem, or in the more modern sense of being very extreme. And I think that's completely by design, I think,

• 42:25Speaker 01

  fundamental thought, which semantically would once be considered radical thought, became very dangerous, and now it's become synonymous with extreme or dangerous thought, which means that anyone who considers themselves a radical thinker is lingu- semantically also a dangerous or extreme thinker.

• 42:49Lex Fridman?

  These are not helpful labels, in a sense, that the moment you say radical or extremist thinker, then you're just, uh, well, how do I put it, you're not being, you're not helping the public discourse, the exchange of ideas.

• 43:06Speaker 01

  But through no fault of our own, the concept of radical is having to do with a root is, uh, it's a, it's an obvious concept for which there must be language, and a lot of the attack on thought has to do with attacking language which communicates, uh-

• 43:26Speaker 01

  Conceptually, so like this is an example of how our world is becoming increasingly Orwellian. It's just language is being used to destroy our ability to to think. I think I can't remember exactly what the numbers are, but I read some statistic about how greatly the average English vocabulary has decreased since 1960. It was like some incredible number. It really baffled me. It's like, how are how are people less able to to think in a time when the world is supposed to be growing at an ever before seen rate? It's like, we can't keep on, we can't sustain this growth if we destroy everyone's ability

• 44:10Speaker 01

  to think, because the growth requires thinking and we're ruining the tools for it. I watched your your podcast with Noam Chomsky, and I think one interesting thing which he discussed was how language is more used to develop thoughts within our own head than it is used to communicate those thoughts with others. If the language doesn't change, even if its usage changes, then when language is destroyed in communication, it also stymies our ability to to think reasonably. And I'm very, very worried.

• 44:54Lex Fridman?

  So but the language in communication requires a medium, and there's a lot of different mediums. So there's social media, there's Twitter, there's writing books, there's blog posts, there's podcasts, there's YouTube videos, all of things you have dipped a toe in in your exploration of different mediums of communication.

• 45:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:21Lex Fridman?

  Which do you see yourself? This might be just a poetic way of asking, are you going to do a podcast? But broader broader picture, what do you think as an intellectual in this world?

• 45:34Lex Fridman?

  For you personally, would be the path for communicating your ideas to the world? What are the mediums you you are currently drawn to? Out of the ones I mentioned, maybe something I didn't.

• 45:46Speaker 01

  To answer your your question concretely before abstractly, I'm scared, but I need I need to do a podcast. You know, it's it's important. It is my obligation as a member of my generation. I I really hope that more people my age start to do this because we we will be the people in charge of of new ideas, which either sink or or swim.

• 46:12Lex Fridman?

  How upset would your dad be when your podcast quickly becomes more popular than his?

• 46:18Speaker 01

  I think he would be negatively upset.

• 46:20Lex Fridman?

  I'll say you'd be proud. He's a good dad.

• 46:23Speaker 01

  I I really think so, yeah.

• 46:25Lex Fridman?

  Sorry to interrupt. Yes, so but then zooming out, do you think podcasts? Are you excited by the possibility of other mediums outside of podcasting to communicate ideas?

• 46:37Speaker 01

  I would be if people still read books or did things like that.

• 46:44Speaker 01

  I'm somewhat guilty of this. A lot of the books I I read are

• 46:51Speaker 01

  very technical and then my to absorb like really deep, modern conversations. I listen to I listen to podcasts and I don't really read many books on like the matters that we're discussing, for example.

• 47:08Lex Fridman?

  It's fascinating because you're making me think of something that I align with you very much of how I consume deep thinkers currently. So what happens is somebody who thinks deeply about the world will write a book. Jordan Peanuts, an example. And instead of reading their book, I'll just listen to podcast conversations of them talking about the book, which I find to. This is really sad, but I find that to be a more compelling way to think about their ideas, because they're often challenged in certain ways in those conversations, and they're forced to, after having boiled them down and really thought through them enough to write a book. So it's almost like they needed to go through the process of writing a book, just so they

• 47:53Lex Fridman?

  could think through, convert the language in their minds into something more concrete. And then the actual exchange of ideas, the actual communication of ideas with the public happens, not with the book, but after the book, with that person going on a book tour and communicating the ideas.

• 48:11Speaker 01

  Well, there are two meanings I make of why not too many people spend much of their time reading anymore. One interpretation is that we've lost our attention spans to our phones, people can't concentrate on a page if it takes them a minute to read, we're too busy, you know, watching TikToks or whatever people do. The other interpretation would be that language and verbal communication has, as well as, you know, some amount of communication, which is done through, you know, facial expression, tone of voice, et cetera. These are means of communication that have evolved along with humanity over thousands

• 48:56Speaker 01

  and thousands of years. So we know that we are built to communicate in this way. We have had writing for much less time. It is a system that we invented, not a system which evolved and is innately part of, you know, humanity or the human mind. And so we are designed to consume conversation by our own evolution. We are designed to consume writing by some process of symbols that's evolved over a couple thousand years.

• 49:45Speaker 01

  It makes sense to me why many are much more compelled to listen to podcasts, for example, than they are to read books. It could be that this is simply a technological progression which has displaced reading conventionally instead of some sort of maladaptation of our minds, which has corrupted our attention spans. Likely, there's some combination which determines why people spend much less time reading, but I don't think it's necessarily because we're all broken.

• 50:25Speaker 01

  It may simply have to do with the fact that we are designed to listen through our ears and speak through our mouths, and we are not innately designed to communicate over a page.

• 50:40Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, there's an exciting coupling to me between like few-second TikTok videos that are fun and addicting, and then the three, four-hour podcasts, which are both really popular in our current time. So people are both hungry for the visual simulation of internet humor and memes, a huge fan of, and also slow-moving, deep conversations. And that might, you know, it's, there's a lot of, I mean, it's part of your generation to define what that looks like moving forward. We're, a lot of people, like Joe Rogan is one of the people that kind of started, accidentally stumbled into the discovery that this is like a thing.

• 51:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:23Lex Fridman?

  And now people are kind of scrambling to figure out, why is this a thing? Like, why is there so much hunger for long-form conversations? And how do we optimize that medium for further, further expression of deep ideas and all that kind of stuff? And YouTube is a really interesting medium for that as well. Like, video.

• 51:44Lex Fridman?

  Sharing of videos, mostly YouTube is used with a spirit of like the TikTok spirit, if I could put it in that way, which is like, how do I have quick moving things that even if you're expressing difficult ideas, they should be quick and exciting and visual and switching. But there's a lot of exploration there to see what can we do something deeper and nobody knows. And you're part of the, you have a YouTube channel, releasing one video every few years. So, so your momentum is currently quite slow, but perhaps it'll accelerate. But you're, you're one of the people that gets to define that medium. Is that, do you enjoy that, the visual, the YouTube medium of communication as well?

• 52:27Speaker 01

  I know that when the, the topic of conversation, or the, the means by which a conversation is, is communicated, or an idea is communicated, if that is sufficiently interesting to me,

• 52:47Speaker 01

  I will read a book on it. I would listen to a podcast on it. I would watch a, a video on it. I think if I'm very curious about something, I will consume it however possible. I think when I have to consume things which really don't interest me very much, I'm indeed much more ready to consume them through some sort of video or discussion than I am through like a long tedious book.

• 53:15Lex Fridman?

  So for the, for the breadth of acquiring knowledge, video is good. For the depth, the medium doesn't matter. I think it'd be fun to ask you about some big philosophical questions to see if you have an opinion on them. Do you think there's a free will? Or is free will just an illusion?

• 53:37Speaker 01

  Well, I think classical mechanics would tell us that if we are, if we were to know every piece of information about a system and understand the rules which govern that system, we would be completely able to predict the future with complete accuracy. So.

• 54:00Speaker 01

  If something could know everything about our lives, it could freeze time and and understand the position of every neuron in my mind about about to fire. No decision could be unpredictable. In some sense, there is that sort of that sort of fate. I think that doesn't make the decisions we make illegitimate, even if some grand supercomputer could understand what decisions we would make beforehand with complete certainty. I think we're making legitimate systems within a system that has no freedom.

• 54:40Lex Fridman?

  We're making legitimate systems within a system that has no freedom. Can you explain what you mean by that?

• 54:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, so if we were to have just a simple pendulum and I told you how long the the rope was, I we froze it at a particular point and I told you how high above the ground the the weight was and you know, the motion of a pendulum is something which is it's easy for everyone to imagine. I could. If we had all of that information, you could ask me, where will the what will the pendulum do six and a half minutes from now? And we would have a precise answer. That's like that's an example of a very simple system with a very simple Lagrangian.

• 55:32Speaker 01

  And we could completely predict the the future. The pendulum has no ability to do anything that would surprise us. Weirdly, that's true of whatever this four dimensional crazy world we live in looks like. If we were to if we were to understand where every piece of this system was at any given time and we we understand the the laws of motion, how everything worked. If we could compute all of that information somehow, which we will never be able to do, we would.

• 56:11Speaker 01

  Every decision you you will ever make could be predicted by that computer. That doesn't mean that your decisions are illegitimate. You are really making those decisions, but with a completely predictable outcome.

• 56:24Lex Fridman?

  So I'm just sort of a little bit high at the moment on the on this on the poetry of a system within a system that has no freedom. So the human experience is the system we've created within the system that has no freedom. But that system that we've created has a feeling of freedom that to us ants feels as

• 56:53Lex Fridman?

  much more real than the physics, as we understand it, of the underlying like base system. So it's almost like not important what the physics of the base system is that for the what we've created, the nature of the human experience is there is a free will.

• 57:15Speaker 01

  Or there is something that feels close enough to a free will that it may not be

• 57:23Speaker 01

  worth

• 57:26Speaker 01

  spending too much time on the fact that it's something of an illusion. We will never build a computer that knows everything about every piece of the universe at a given time. And so for all intensive purposes, our decisions are up to us. We just happen to know that their outcomes could be predicted with enough information.

• 57:46Lex Fridman?

  So speaking of supercomputers, they can predict every single thing about the what's going to ever happen.

• 57:55Lex Fridman?

  What do you think about the philosophical thought experiment of us living in a simulation? Do you often find yourself pondering of us living in a simulation of this question? Do you think it is at all a useful thought experiment?

• 58:11Speaker 01

  I think it's very easy to become fascinated with all of these possibilities. And they're completely legitimate possibilities, you know, like, do I, is there some validity to like solipsism? Well, it can never be falsified or disproven. So, I mean, sure, you could be a figment of my imagination. It doesn't mean that I will act according to this possibility. I'm not gonna call you mean names and.

• 58:45Lex Fridman?

  Just to test the system to see how robust it is to distortions.

• 58:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, I mean, all of these existential thought experiments are completely possible. We could be brains in jars. It doesn't mean that our experience will feel any less valid. And so it doesn't make a difference to me if you are some number of ones and zeros, or you are a figment of my imagination, which lives in a stored away brain. It will never really change my experience, knowing that that's a possibility. And so I try to, I try to avoid making decisions based on such contemplations.

• 59:35Speaker 01

  You know, if we take this, this previous issue of free will.

• 59:40Speaker 01

  I could, I could decide that because I have no choice in my life. If I lie around in bed all day and eat chips, I was destined to do that thing. And if I make that decision, then I was destined to do that thing. It would be a really poor decision for me to make. I have school and a dozen commitments.

• 1:00:04Lex Fridman?

  There's somebody listening to this right now, probably hundreds of people sitting down, eating chips and feeling terrible about themselves. So how dare you, sir?

• 1:00:13Speaker 01

  If they're listening to this, they're clearly, they're clearly curious about

• 1:00:20Speaker 01

  possibilities of, of thought. It's not the, it's not the bed and the chips that makes the man.

• 1:00:26Lex Fridman?

  It's not the bed or the chips that makes a man. Yet another quotable from Zev Weinstein. Okay.

• 1:00:33Lex Fridman?

  But you don't think of it as a useful thought experiment from an engineering perspective of. You know, virtual reality of thinking how we can create further and further immersive worlds. Like, would it be possible to create worlds that are so immersive that we would rather live in that world versus the real world? I mean, that's another possible trajectory of the world that you're growing up in is we're more and more immersing ourselves into the digital world. For now, it's screens and looking at the screens and socializing to the screens. But it's possible to potentially create a world that's also visually for all of our human senses as immersive as the physical world.

• 1:01:17Lex Fridman?

  And then, you know, it's, to me, it's an engineering question of how difficult is it to create a world that's as immersive and more fun than the world we currently live in?

• 1:01:29Speaker 01

  It's a terrifying concept, and I hate to say it. We might live happier lives in a virtual reality headset 30 years from now than we are currently living.

• 1:01:39Lex Fridman?

  This future, the digital future worries you?

• 1:01:43Speaker 01

  It worries me. On the other hand, it may be, it may be a better alternative to fighting for whatever people are clinging on to in our non-virtual world, or at least the world that we don't yet know is virtual.

• 1:02:03Lex Fridman?

  So embrace the future. We've been talking a lot about thinkers. Now, in the broad definition of philosophy, you kind of included innovators of all form. Do you find it useful to draw a distinction between thinkers and doers?

• 1:02:21Speaker 01

  I think that the most important gift we've ever been given is our ability to observe the universe and think deductively about whatever principles transcend humanity. Because, you know, as we discussed, that's, that's the closest thing we will ever have to a universal experience is understanding things which must be true everywhere. In order for

• 1:02:53Speaker 01

  So I think if we're deciding that life is meaningful and the human experience is meaningful, you could make a very convincing argument that its greatest meaning will be understanding whatever transcends it.

• 1:03:12Speaker 01

  I think that's only sustainable if people are happy and well-fed and things of market value are invented. And so I think we really need both to live meaningful and successful and possible lives. In terms of who my greatest heroes are, I can't decide between figures like Einstein and Newton and Feynman and, on the other hand, figures like Carey Mullis, for example.

• 1:03:57Speaker 01

  I think people like Einstein make our lives meaningful and people like Carey Mullis, who's probably responsible for saving hundreds of millions of lives, make our lives possible and good. So in terms of where I would like to find myself with these two different notions of achievement, I don't know what I would more like to achieve. I have an inclination that it will be something scientific because I would like to bring meaning to humanity instead of sustenance.

• 1:04:41Speaker 01

  But I think both are very important. We can't sustain our lives if we don't keep growing technologically. I think people like you are making that possible with computing because that's one of the few things that's really moving forward in a clear sense.

• 1:05:03Speaker 01

  I think about this a great deal. So I think both are very important.

• 1:05:09Lex Fridman?

  So one example that's modern day inspiring figure on the latter part and the engineering part on the sustenance is Elon Musk. Does that somebody you draw inspiration from? What are your thoughts in general about the kind of unique spec of human that's creating so much inspiring innovation in this world so boldly?

• 1:05:39Speaker 01

  I know that we will not survive without people like that. Elon is a ridiculous and sensational example of one of these figures. I don't know if he's the best example or the worst example, but he is of his own kind. He is radically individualistic and those are the people who will allow us to continue as humans. I'm very happy that we have people like that in this world.

• 1:06:14Lex Fridman?

  You said this thing about if we are to say that life has meaning or life is meaningful, then you could argue that it is a worthy pursuit to transcend life. Do you see that? Another just, I'm gonna have to go back and sleep on that one. Do you draw some, speaking of Elon, some inspiration of us transcending Earth, of us moving outside of this particular

• 1:06:59Lex Fridman?

  planet that we've called home for a long time and colonizing other planets and perhaps one day expanding outside the solar system and expanding, colonizing our galaxy and beyond?

• 1:07:12Speaker 01

  Honestly, I know very little about space exploration. I think it makes complete sense to me why we are starting to think very seriously about it. It's an amazing and baffling and innovative solution to a lot of problems we see as a world population. I can't really offer very much of interest on the topic. I think when I'm talking about like transcending humanity and transcending Earth, I'm talking usually about deriving truth.

• 1:07:54Speaker 01

  And that's one of the things that makes like theoretical math and physics so interesting. It's like, I, I really, really love biology, for example, but biology is a combination of whatever principles ensure evolution and whatever weird coincidences happened billions of years ago.

• 1:08:17Lex Fridman?

  So do you it's more interesting to understand the fundamental mechanisms of evolution, for example, than it is the results, the messy results of its processes?

• 1:08:26Speaker 01

  I can't say which is more interesting. I can say which I think is more, is more deep. I think theory and abstraction, which can be achieved completely deductively, is deeper because it has nothing to do with circumstance and everything to do with logic and thought. So like if we were ever to, to interact with aliens, for example, we would not have our biology in common. If, if these were, were some sort of really intelligent life form, we would have math

• 1:09:08Speaker 01

  and physics in common because the laws of physics will be the same every, everywhere in the universe. They, our particular anatomy and

• 1:09:22Speaker 01

  Biology pertains only to life on this, on this planet. And the principles may apply more ubiquitously.

• 1:09:30Lex Fridman?

  Do you, do you ever think about aliens, like what they might look like?

• 1:09:33Speaker 01

  I try to, when I, I deal with thought experiments like these, I try to keep a very abstract mindset and I notice that whenever I try to instantiate these abstractions, I, I corrupt whatever thoughts there are for which they're useful. So.

• 1:09:57Lex Fridman?

  It's kind of like the labels discussion. So like the moment you try to make it concrete, it's probably going to look like some cute version of a human, a big, like it's the little green fellas with the, with the eyes and so on, or whatever, whatever the movies have instilled, like your cultural upbringing, you're going to project down to that and the assumptions you have. That's interesting. So you prefer to step away and think in abstract notions of what it means to be intelligent, what it means to be a living life form and all that kind of stuff.

• 1:10:27Speaker 01

  I try to, I almost try to pretend I'm, I'm blind and I'm deaf and I'm only a mind with no inductive reasoning capacity when I'm trying to think about thought experiments like these, because I know that if I incorporate whatever my eyes instruct my brain, I will, I will impede my ability to think as deeply as possible, because once again, it's the thing which shallows our thought can be the incorporation of circumstance and coincidence. And for particular kinds of thought, that's very important. I'm not discounting the use

• 1:11:12Speaker 01

  of inductive reasoning in many humanities and in many sciences, but for the deepest of thoughts, once again, I, I feel it's important to try to transcend whatever methods of observation characterize human experience.

• 1:11:28Lex Fridman?

  See, but within that, that's all really beautifully put. I, I wonder if there is a common.

• 1:11:36Lex Fridman?

  Mathematics and a common physics between us and alien beings. We still have to make concrete the methods of communication.

• 1:11:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:47Lex Fridman?

  And that's a fascinating question of like, while remaining in these abstract fundamental ideas, how do we communicate with them? I mean, I suppose that that question could be applied to different cultures on Earth. It's finding a common language. Do you think about that kind of problem of basically communicating abstract fundamental ideas?

• 1:12:10Speaker 01

  My least favorite aspect of math or physics or any of these really deep sciences is the symbolic component. You know, I'm dyslexic. I don't like looking at at symbols. They're too often a source of ambiguity. And I think you're entirely right that if one thing holds us back with

• 1:12:36Speaker 01

  communication with something that behaves or looks nothing like us. I think if one thing holds us back,

• 1:12:46Speaker 01

  it will be symbols and the communication of deep thought. Because as I said, I think communication frequently compromises thought by intention or by just theoretical inadequacy.

• 1:13:01Lex Fridman?

  So on this topic, actually, it'd be fun to see where your thoughts are. Do you think math is invented or discovered? So you said that math, we might share ideas of mathematics and physics with alien life forms. So it's uniform in some sense of uniform throughout the universe.

• 1:13:24Lex Fridman?

  Do you think this thing that we call mathematics is something that's kind of fundamental to the world we live in? Or is it just some kind of pretty? Axioms and theorems have come up with to try to describe the the patterns we see in the world.

• 1:13:41Speaker 01

  I think it's completely discovered and completely fundamental to all experience. I think the only component of mathematics that has been invented is the expression of it. And I think in some sense, there's almost an arrogance required to believe that whatever aspect we invent, having to do with math and physics and a theory, there is an arrogance required to truly believe that that belongs on any sort of stage with the actual beauty of the matters being discovered.

• 1:14:25Speaker 01

  So we need our minds and in some sense, our pens to be able to play with these things and communicate about them. And those hands and those are and those pens are the things which smudge the most beautiful thing that humanity can ever experience. And maybe if we interact with some intelligent life form, they will have their own unique smudges.

• 1:15:04Speaker 01

  But the canvas, which is beautiful, must be identical because that is universal and ubiquitous truth. And that's what makes it deep and meaningful is that it's so much more important than whatever we're programmed to enjoy as an aspect of human experience.

• 1:15:23Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, that that's really beautifully put. The human language is these messy smudges of trying to express something underlying that is beautiful.

• 1:15:36Lex Fridman?

  Speaking of that, on the physics side, do you think the pursuit of a theory of everything in physics, as we may call it in our current times, of understanding the basic fabric of reality from a physics perspective, is an important pursuit?

• 1:15:54Speaker 01

  I think it's essential. As I've said, I think ideation is our only escape from the constraints of human condition. And I think that it's important that all great thoughts and ideas are bound together. And I think the math is beautiful, and it ensures that the things which bind great ideas, which have already been had, and great discoveries together, it ensures that those strings will be beautiful. I think it's very important to unify all theories that have brought us to where we are.

• 1:16:38Lex Fridman?

  Do you think humans can do it? Do you think humans can solve this puzzle? Is it possible that we, with our limited cognitive capacity, will never be able to truly understand this deep, like deeply understand this underlying canvas?

• 1:16:55Speaker 01

  I think if not, it will be people like you who invent some sort of, I don't know, we'll call it computation for now, that will be able to not only discover that which transcends humanity, but to transcend human methods of discovering that which is above it.

• 1:17:24Lex Fridman?

  So, super intelligent systems, AGI and so on, that are better physicists than us. I wonder if you might be able to comment. So, your dad does happen to be somebody who boldly seeks this kind of deep understanding of physics, the underlying nature of reality from a physics perspective, from a mathematical physics perspective.

• 1:17:48Lex Fridman?

  Do you have hope your dad figures it out?

• 1:17:50Speaker 01

  I have great hope. You know, it's not, it's not supposed to be my journey. It's supposed to be his journey. It's supposed to be his to express to the world. Obviously, I'm, I'm so proud that I'm connected to someone who is determined to do such a thing. And on the other hand, you know, maybe in some sense, I feel bad for him for having to, if he's going to be the, the thing which, which discovers some sort of grand unified theory and expresses it, I feel sorry that he will have to, to smudge,

• 1:18:29Speaker 01

  whatever canvas this thing is because

• 1:18:32Lex Fridman?

  Because he's human.

• 1:18:33Speaker 01

  Really, I think, I know, I've seen a little bit of what I think great math and great physics looks like, and it's, it's unbelievably beautiful. And then you have to present it to a world with, you know, like market constraints and all of this like messy sloppiness. I feel bad in some sense for my dad because he has to go back and forth between this beautiful world of math and whatever the, the messiness is of his, you know, his human life.

• 1:19:08Lex Fridman?

  And then the scientific community broadly with egos and tensions and

• 1:19:12Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:19:13Lex Fridman?

  The dynamics of our, of what makes us human.

• 1:19:17Speaker 01

  He's also very lucky that he gets to play with these sorts of things. It's, it's a mixed, it's a mixed bag. I both feel a little sorry for him for having to deal with the beauty as well as the,

• 1:19:30Speaker 01

  the smudging and the sloppiness of human expression. And I think it's difficult not to envy such a, such a beautiful.

• 1:19:45Speaker 01

  Insight or life or vision. So.

• 1:19:48Lex Fridman?

  Well, that's your own path as well as this kind of struggle of, as you mentioned, exploring the beauty of different ideas. While having to communicate those ideas with the best smudges you can. In a world that wants to put labels, that wants to misinterpret, that wants to, that wants to destroy the beauty of those ideas. And that's, you seem to, at this time, with your youthful enthusiasm, embracing that struggle despite the fear, in the face of fear. So. And your dad also carries that same youthful enthusiasm as well.

• 1:20:27Lex Fridman?

  But that said, you know, your dad, Eric Weinstein, he's a powerful voice, I would say, powerful intellect in public discourse. Is this a burden for you? Or an inspiration or both? As a young mind yourself?

• 1:20:44Speaker 01

  I think, as I said, there's this, there's this weird contrast of,

• 1:20:52Speaker 01

  you know, I know that he has ideas, which I think are very beautiful. And I know he has to deal with the sort of,

• 1:21:01Speaker 01

  there's, there's something you, you have to sacrifice in beauty. When you bring it to a world, which is not always beautiful. And there's, there's an aspect of that, which sort of scares me about this kind of thing. I also think that,

• 1:21:25Speaker 01

  especially since I'm trying to think about how I should appear publicly. My dad has been very inspirational in that I think he's, he brings a sort of fastidious care to very difficult conversations that.

• 1:21:41Lex Fridman?

  What does fastidious mean?

• 1:21:43Speaker 01

  Like it's just very careful and. Thoughtful. He brings that sort of attitude to, I think, really difficult conversations. And I know that I don't have that skill yet. I don't think I'm terrible, but.

• 1:22:01Lex Fridman?

  The care, the nuance, and yet not being afraid to push forward.

• 1:22:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, I would really like to learn from my dad there. I think also, my dad has been very important to my life, just because I've always been a sort of very idiosyncratic thinker. And I think I don't always know how to interact with the world for those sorts of reasons. And I think my dad has always been similar. And if not for my dad, I don't know if I would just believe that, like, I was stupid or something. Because I wouldn't know how to, I don't know if I would know how to interpret my differences from convention. So.

• 1:22:50Lex Fridman?

  So he gave you, he gave you the power to be different and use that as a superpower?

• 1:22:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, I guess you could, you could put it that way. I don't know who I would believe I am if I didn't have my dad telling me that it wasn't my own stupidity, which alienated me from certain aspects of standard life. So I'm very, very thankful for that.

• 1:23:18Lex Fridman?

  Is there a fond memory you have about an interaction with your dad, either funny, profound, that kind of sticks with you now?

• 1:23:27Speaker 01

  A lot.

• 1:23:29Lex Fridman?

  Part, part of the reason I ask that, of course, is just fascinating to see somebody as brilliant as you, see how you're, the people that you interact with, how they form the mind that you have, but also to give an insight of another public figure like your dad, to see from your perspective of what kind of little magical moments happen in private life.

• 1:23:55Speaker 01

  I would say, I remember, I think I just posted about this on Instagram or something.

• 1:24:03Lex Fridman?

  Otherwise, it didn't happen. If you didn't post that, yeah.

• 1:24:07Speaker 01

  One person who's always sort of mattered to whatever weird life and experience I've had has been this comedian, Tom Lehrer. Do you know him?

• 1:24:18Lex Fridman?

  Yes, I love him very much.

• 1:24:21Speaker 01

  Likewise. Anyway, I remember, I think I was five or something. My dad came home with the CD, this Tom Lehrer CD, and he told me to listen to it. And it was all of this bizarre, satirical writing about prostitution and cutting up babies and all kinds of ridiculously vile content for a five-year-old. I think beyond just my love of Tom Lehrer, I think it was a way for my dad to express that from a very young age,

• 1:25:02Speaker 01

  he was really ready to treat me like an adult and he was ready to trust me and share his life and his enjoyments with me in a way that was unconventional because he was willing to discard tradition for the chance at a really unique and meaningful parental relationship.

• 1:25:34Lex Fridman?

  Trusting that his particular brand of weirdness is something you can understand at a young age and embrace and learn from it. Tom Lehrer, we should clarify, is not all about, what is it, murder and prostitution. He's one of the wittiest, most brilliant musical artists. If you haven't listened to his work, you should. He's just a rare.

• 1:25:56Lex Fridman?

  Intellect, who's able to sort of in catchy rhyme, express some really difficult ideas and sat through satire, I suppose. That's still, even though it's decades ago, still resonates today, some of the ideas that he expressed.

• 1:26:11Speaker 01

  I will say also that I think I am probably a more cultured person, having listened to Tom Lehrer than I would have been without. I think a lot of his comedy draws upon a canon that I was really driven to research by saying, oh, what does this mean? I don't understand that reference. There are a lot of references there to really, really inspirational things, which he sort of assumes going into a lot of his songs. And for many of us, like me, you have to piece those things together, you know, looking at Wikipedia pages

• 1:26:46Speaker 01

  and whatnot. But to tie this back to the original question, I think, I think there's sort of a break it, you bought it notion of parenting. I think, really, if you're not going to accept a standard, you have to invent your own. And I think in some ways, that was my dad's way of telling me that if I was too unstandard as a child, he wouldn't, he would invent his own way of parenting me because that was worth it to him. And I think that was very meaningful to me.

• 1:27:25Lex Fridman?

  I know you're young. This is a weird time to ask this question. Are you cognizant on the role of love in your relationship with your dad? Are you at a place mentally as a man yourself to admit that you love the guy?

• 1:27:41Speaker 01

  I love my dad like I, with the connection that I think I've had to very few things in the world. I think my dad is one of the people that's allowed me to see myself. And I don't know who I would imagine myself to be if not for my dad. That isn't to say that I agree with him on everything, but I think he's given me courage to accept myself and to believe that I can.

• 1:28:12Speaker 01

  Teach myself where I'm unable to to learn from convention. So I have a very, I love my dad very dearly, yes.

• 1:28:21Lex Fridman?

  Is there ways in which you wish you could be a better son?

• 1:28:26Speaker 01

  Firstly, I'd like to say I'm sure before I I figure out exactly what those are. I think if I, I think whenever I come to conclusions on what that means, I'm eager to to take them.

• 1:28:42Lex Fridman?

  What do you mean by that? What do you mean by conclusions?

• 1:28:45Speaker 01

  If I have an idea for how to be a better son, I think I'm I'm inclined to to try to be that person. I think that's true of almost anything. I think if I have ideas for improvement, it would be wasteful not to not to not to act on them. So I suppose one thing I could say is that I think idealism and what could almost be

• 1:29:17Speaker 01

  considered naivete is not necessarily a a lacking of maturity, but instead an obligation to those older than us who have lived, lived and seen too much to fully believe in what is naive and right without without the assistance of the young to re-inspire traditional idealism.

• 1:30:00Speaker 01

  And so perhaps instead of trying to be more mature all the time, I should spend some time trying to be an idealistic form of hope in the lives of people who maybe have seen too much to retain all of that original hope. So. That's something that's that's difficult, but you know, especially appearing in public as someone as as young as I am, I think anything I do, which is juvenile by choice, will be held against me. So but maybe that's a sacrifice that I I have to make. I have to retain some sort of youthful hope and optimism.

• 1:30:44Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, I can't. I mean, I'm gonna get teary eyed now, but I have allergies. But also, this is pretty powerful. You're saying I certainly share your ideas. It's something I struggle with of just by instinct. You should read The Idiot by Dostoevsky. By instinct, I'm I love being naive and seeing the world from a hopeful perspective, from an optimistic perspective. And it is, it's sad that that is something you pay a price for in this world, like in the academic world, especially as you're coming up through through schooling. But just actually, it's a hit on your reputation throughout your life. And it's a sad truth,

• 1:31:27Lex Fridman?

  but you have to like, for many things, if it's a principle you hold, you have to be willing to pay the costs. And ultimately, I believe that in part, a hopeful view will help you realize the best version of yourself, because optimism is a kind of optimism is productive, like believing that the world is and can be amazing is allows you to create a more amazing world somehow. I mean, I'm not sure if I'm not sure if it's a human nature or a fundamental law of physics. I don't know. But believing the impossible

• 1:32:08Lex Fridman?

  in the sense of being optimistic about the thing, it's similar, like going back to what you've said, is like believing that a radical, that a powerful single idea, that a single individual can revolutionize some framework that we're operating in that will change the world for the better. Believing that allows you to have the chance to create that. And so I'm with you on the optimism, but it's you may have to pay a cost of optimism and naive hopefulness.

• 1:32:39Speaker 01

  I mean, in some sense, optimism limits freedom. I think if we don't really have much choice in choosing what is perfect, if it exists as is an ideal, then there isn't much room for creativity. And that's a danger of optimism is someone who would like to be creative. I think, I think it was Warren Zevon said, accepting dreams, you're never really free. And that's something I think about a lot. He's an interesting guy also, I really like him.

• 1:33:16Lex Fridman?

  On that topic, you do have a bit of an appreciation and connection with music. I saw you play some guitar a few months ago. What, what can you put in like a philosophical sense, your connection to music? What insights about life, about just the way you see the world, do you get from music?

• 1:33:39Speaker 01

  I think the role music has played in my life was originally motivated by sort of wanting to prove things to myself. I really have no ear for music. I have a terrible sense of pitch and I think a lot of music relies on very standard teaching. If you think about lessons, for example, music lessons, there's, there's sort of a routine to them, which is so archaic and traditional that there's no room for, for deviation. I think all of that suggested to me that I would never have a relationship with music. I loved listening to music. It was just, it was difficult to me.

• 1:34:23Speaker 01

  It was sort of saddened me. I wanted to know if there was any way I could build a connection to music, given who I am, my own idiosyncrasies, what challenges I have. I decided to try to learn music theory before I touched an instrument.

• 1:34:46Speaker 01

  I think that gave me a very unique opportunity. Instead of spending my time fruitlessly at the beginning on the syntax of a particular instrument, this is how you, this is your posture on the piano, this is how you hold your fingers. I tried instead to learn what made music work. And the wonderful thing about that was I'm pretty sure that any instrument with discrete notes is mine for the taking within a day or so of having the ability to play with it. So I think approaching music abstractly gave me the ability to instantiate it everywhere. And I think it also taught me something about self-teaching.

• 1:35:31Speaker 01

  Like recently, I've tried getting into classical music because, at least traditionally, this is the thing which is thought to require the most rigor and traditional teaching. I think it's essentially taught me, even if I'll never be a great classical performer, that there is nothing one can't really teach themselves in this era. So I've been enjoying whatever connection I have with music. The other thing I'll say about it is that it's a very rewarding learning process.

• 1:36:13Speaker 01

  We know, for example, that music accesses our neurochemicals very directly. And if you teach yourself a little bit of theory and are able to instantiate it on an instrument without wasting your time or spending your time tediously on learning the particulars of that instrument, you can instantly sit down and access your own dopamine loops. And so you don't really need to motivate yourself with music because, you know, like you're giving your brain drugs, you know?

• 1:36:52Speaker 01

  Who needs motivation to give themselves drugs and learn something? So I think.

• 1:37:04Speaker 01

  I think more people should be should be playing music. I think a lot of people don't realize how how easy it can be to approach if you take a sort of unstandard approach.

• 1:37:14Lex Fridman?

  And the standard approach in your sense was understanding the theory first and then just from the from the foundation of the theory, be able to then just take on any instrument and start creating something that sounds reasonably good.

• 1:37:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:31Lex Fridman?

  Or learning something that sounds reasonably good and then plugging into the, as you call them, the dopamine loops of your brain, allowing yourself to enjoy the process.

• 1:37:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:42Lex Fridman?

  What about the the pain in the ass rigorous process of practice? So there's something about my dopamine loops, for example, that enjoys doing the same thing over and over and over again and watching myself improve.

• 1:37:55Speaker 01

  I think that's because music is more effective at accessing us when it's played correctly. And I think you play, I'm positive that you play music much more correctly than I do. So if you are going to sit down and play something that you've learned, that piece will be much more satisfying to your ears and to your brain than if I were to play that piece just sitting down with an with an instrument. But it's sort of a trade off with freedom and and rigor. Because even if I should be spending more of my time practicing rigorously, I know

• 1:38:38Speaker 01

  I don't have to to make me happy. So.

• 1:38:41Lex Fridman?

  Well, Jaco Willink, I think, has this saying, the discipline is freedom. So maybe maybe the repetition of the disciplined repetition is actually one of the mechanisms of achieving freedom. It's another way to get to freedom. That it doesn't have to be a constraint, but in a sense unlocks greater sets of opportunity than results in a deeper experience of freedom.

• 1:39:09Speaker 01

  Maybe, I mean, particularly if you're thinking about discipline and

• 1:39:17Speaker 01

  method for improvisation.

• 1:39:20Lex Fridman?

  Right.

• 1:39:21Speaker 01

  There are a million pieces that you could improvise with the same discipline and how to approach that improvisation. So I think.

• 1:39:32Speaker 01

  I think that's, it's true that discipline promotes freedom if you insert a layer of indirection, because I think, I think if you're, if you're trying to learn one piece that was written 400 years ago, and you're playing it over and over again, there is nothing personable, sorry, there's nothing personal or creative about that process, even if it's beautiful and satisfying. There has to be some sort of discipline applied to the creativity of self. So I think that, I think that is the, the layer

• 1:40:14Speaker 01

  of indirection which reconciles both approaches to freedom and discipline and enjoyment of music.

• 1:40:22Lex Fridman?

  Discipline applied to the creativity of self. Damn, Zev.

• 1:40:29Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:40:31Lex Fridman?

  Now, as an aging man yourself, if you were to give an advice to young folks today of how to approach life, maybe advice to yourself, is there some way you could condense a set of principles, a set of advices you would give to yourself and to other young folks?

• 1:40:54Speaker 01

  Ah.

• 1:40:55Lex Fridman?

  Of how to live life?

• 1:40:57Speaker 01

  Sure. I would, I would say that with the collapse of systems that have

• 1:41:05Speaker 01

  existed for thousands of years, you know, like whatever is happening with universities might be an example of some system that, that may or may not be decaying. I think with the destruction of, of important systems.

• 1:41:23Speaker 01

  There is a unique opportunity to invest in oneself. And I think that is always the right approach, provided that the investment one makes in his self is obligated towards humanity as a whole. And I think that is, that is the great struggle of my generation. Will we create our own paths that are capable of saving whatever is collapsing? Or will we be squashed by the debris? And I hope to articulate what patterns I see this struggle taking

• 1:42:08Speaker 01

  over the years that my generation becomes particularly active in the world as an important force. I think already we're important as a demographic to particular markets. But I, I should hope that our voices will matter as well, starting very soon. So I would, I would try to think about that. That would be my advice.

• 1:42:31Lex Fridman?

  Do you, it's a silly question to ask perhaps, but a bit of a Russian one. It's silly because you're young, but I don't think it's actually silly because you're young. Do you ponder your mortality? And are you just afraid of death in general?

• 1:42:53Speaker 01

  So tying us back to our previous conversations about abstraction versus experience, which is determining our, our notions of our life and our, our world. Death is interesting in that it is obviously hyper-important to a person's life. And it is something that for the most part, no human will really experience and be able to, to reflect upon. So.

• 1:43:31Speaker 01

  Our notions of death are sort of proof that if we want to make the most of our lives, we have to think abstractly and relying not at all at times on experiential thought and understandings because we can't really experience death and reflect upon it hence and use it to motivate us. It has to remain some sort of abstraction. And I think if we have trouble comprehending true abstraction, we tend to view our lives as, you know, we

• 1:44:09Speaker 01

  tend to view ourselves as nearly immortal. And I think that's very dangerous. So one concrete implication for my belief in abstraction would be that we all need to be aware of our, our own deaths and we need to, we need to understand concretely the, the boundaries of our lifetimes and no amount of experience can really motivate that. It has to be driven by thought and abstraction in theory.

• 1:44:45Lex Fridman?

  That's one of the deepest elements of what it means to be human is our ability to form abstractions about our mortality versus animals. I think there's just something really fundamental about our interaction with the abstractions of death. And, you know, there's a lot of philosophers that say that that's actually core to everything we create in this world, which is like us struggling with this impossible to understand idea of mortality. I mean, I'm, I'm drawn to this idea because both the, the mystery

• 1:45:29Lex Fridman?

  of it, but also just from the human experience perspective, it seems that you get a lot of meaning from stuff ending.

• 1:45:38Lex Fridman?

  It's kind of sad, the flip side of that, to think that stuff won't be as meaningful if it doesn't end, if it's not finite. But it seems like resources gain value from being finite. And that's true for time, that's true for the deliciousness of ice cream, that's true for love, for everything, for music and so on. And yeah, it's, it seems deeply human to to try to, as you said, concretize the abstractions of mortality, even though we can never truly experience it, because that's the whole point of it. Once it ends, you can't experience it.

• 1:46:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:46:19Lex Fridman?

  Again, another ridiculous question.

• 1:46:21Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:46:24Lex Fridman?

  What do you think is the meaning of it all? What's the meaning of life? From your, your deep thinking about this world, is there a good way to answer any of the why questions about this existence here on earth?

• 1:46:40Speaker 01

  And as I said, we're here in part by principle and in part by accident. And a lot of the things which bring us joy are programmed to bring us joy to ensure our evolutionary success. And so

• 1:47:00Speaker 01

  I would not necessarily consider

• 1:47:04Speaker 01

  all of the things which bring us joy to be meaningful. I think they, they play a very, a very obvious role in a clear pattern. And we don't have much choice in that. I think that outrules the idea of joy being the meaning of life. I think it's, I think it's a nice, it's a nice thing we get to have, even if it's not inherently meaningful. I think

• 1:47:38Speaker 01

  the most

• 1:47:42Speaker 01

  The most wonderful thing that we will ever, that we have ever been given

• 1:47:50Speaker 01

  has been our ability to,

• 1:47:55Speaker 01

  as I said, observe, observe what transcends us as, as humans. And I think to live a meaningful life is to see that and hopefully contribute to that. So.

• 1:48:09Lex Fridman?

  So to try to understand what makes us human and to transcend that. And in some small way, contribute to it in the finite time we have here.

• 1:48:21Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:25Lex Fridman?

  Those are some powerful words.

• 1:48:26Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:48:27Lex Fridman?

  You're, you're a truly special human being. It's really an honor to talk to you. I can't, I'm just, uh, I'm a newborn fan of yours and I can't wait to see how you push the world. Please embrace the fear you feel and be bold. And I think you will do some special things in this world. I'm confident if this world doesn't destroy you, and I hope it doesn't. Be strong, be brave. You're an inspiration. Keep doing your thing. And thanks for talking today.

• 1:48:59Speaker 01

  Thank you so much, Lex.

• 1:49:01Lex Fridman?

  Thanks for listening to this conversation with Zev Weinstein and thank you to our sponsors. ExpressVPN, Grammarly, Grammar Assistant, Simply Safe Home Security, and Magic Spoon Low Carb Cereal. So the choice is privacy, grammar, safety, or health. Choose wisely, my friends. And if you wish, click the sponsor links below to get a discount to support this podcast. And now let me leave you with some words from Aristotle. Knowing yourself is the beginning of all wisdom. Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.