Hermes Historia: AUT-- Wait, What Did He Say?! Modern Reception of Julius Caesar

In today's Hermes Historia special episode Michaela Pangowish breaks down the phrase 'AUT CAESAR AUT NIHIL' and the way we understand Julius Caesar today. Caesars, dictators, billionaire oligarchies are bad, actually. For more Hermes Historia episodes (typically co-hosted by Liv!) sign up for LTAMB's ad-free Oracle Edition on Patreon http://patreon.com/mythsbaby. Submit your question for the next Q&A via email http://mythsbaby.com/questions or a voice note https://www.speakpipe.com/LTAMB. Get ad-free episodes and so, so much more, by subscribing to the Oracle Edition at patreon.com/mythsbaby http://patreon.com/mythsbaby CW/TW: far too many Greek myths involve assault. Given it's fiction, and typically involves gods and/or monsters, I'm not as deferential as I would be were I referencing the real thing. Sources: Billows, Richard A. Julius Caesar: The colossus of Rome; Bradford, Sarah. Cesare Borgia: His life and times. Dimitrova, Miryana. Julius Caesar’s Self-Created Image and it’s Dramatic Afterlife. Irsha, Zara. “Bluesky CEO trolls Mark Zuckerberg with T-shirt diss https://www.sfchronicle.com/entertainment/article/mark-zuckerberg-jay-grabber-bluesky-meta-20219762.php.” Mortimer, Nigel. Medieval and Early Modern Portrayals of Julius Caesar: The transmission of an idea. Reuters. “‘Aut Zuck aut nihil’: Meta CEO Mark Zuckerberg’s custom T-shirt slogan goes viral. Do you know what it means? https://www.hindustantimes.com/trending/aut-zuck-aut-nihil-meta-ceo-mark-zuckerberg-s-custom-t-shirt-slogan-goes-viral-do-you-know-what-it-means-101727407933965.html” Riggsby, Andrew M. Caesar in Gaul and Rome: war in words. Wyke, Maria. “A Twenty-First-Century Caesar.” In Julius Caesar in western culture. Attributions and licensing information for music used in the podcast can be found here:mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions http://mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions. Learn more about Liv's next group trips https://travelbugxlivalbert.my.canva.site/ to GREECE! Application deadline is November 30 (Subject to change due to demand). Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Liv Albert?

  Hey nerds, really quick note from me. I want to tell you that we now have the applications open for the next set of listener group trips. This is us going back to the original. The trips that we have held in the past that have been so much fun, so successful, and pretty affordable in terms of wandering around Greece with a bunch of nerds. So check out the details and get your applications in at mythsbaby.com/groups.

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• 1:15Speaker 02

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• 2:10Liv Albert?

  Hello, this is Let's Talk About Myths, baby, and I am your host, or one of them, here with something very special. So as you all know, I have been trying to find creative ways of providing you with new and exciting episodes of the podcast while still finding the time to write this children's retelling of the Odyssey that I'm doing, which is the most exciting thing to have happened to me in a long time. And it just so happened that everyone's favorite Hermes, Michaela Pangowish, also had a project to do for her

• 2:49Liv Albert?

  degree. And one of those classes that she had was on uses and abuses of antiquity in modern reception, something like that. And fortunately for, I mean, me and Michaela, she was able to make a podcast episode for that class. And even better, I mean, she did it absolutely in the vein of Let's Talk About Myths, baby, because she's Michaela, because she is the second in command of this podcast, and she knows what she's doing. And so this episode, I am so excited for you to hear this. Michaela sent this to me, and she was like, ah, let me know, you know, if you think it's good for the podcast, no pressure. And I listened to it, and I was like, it's perfect. It's perfect. Michaela

• 3:33Liv Albert?

  is breaking down not only some myths regarding Julius Caesar and what he did or did not do, and did or did not say, but myths of Julius Caesar that directly relate to modern tech oligarchy. That's right. That's right. And oh, my God. No, it's so good. So you're gonna learn about the history of Julius Caesar, which is utterly, I mean, wild to begin with, the type of stuff that I know I cannot tell you in the excited and hilarious and interesting way that I want, but which fortunately, Michaela can and does. So.

• 4:17Liv Albert?

  A world without Caesars, am I right? A world without billionaires. We can dream.

• 4:25Liv Albert?

  This is Michaela's first solo episode. Enjoy, you'll love it. Please tell us in the Spotify comments or via Instagram or email or whatever. Tell us what you think of Michaela's first solo episode of the show because I think it's amazing and I want her to do more like this. More little dips into history on topics where she is far more passionate and knowledgeable than I am. I can stick to the myths and the conversations and oh, I will never give them up. Don't get me wrong, but every once in a while, like I am here to have Michaela tell us some wild aspects about history.

• 5:09Liv Albert?

  So, Michaela Hermes, take it away.

• 5:27Liv Albert?

  Hermes Historia. Oh, wait, wait, what did he say? Modern reception of Caesar.

• 5:50Speaker 03

  Hey, hi, hello all. So a little bit of a different vibe happening here today. As you can probably tell, this isn't Liv. It's a, it's, it's me Hermes, Michaela. And we're not really going to be talking about myth stuff. Sorry about that. Actually, what you are getting is an airing of a final project I did for one of my classes. The class is called Uses and Abuses of Antiquity. And we spent the semester looking at the various ways that antiquity has been used throughout history, the motivations, implications and harm that is caused by it.

• 6:28Speaker 03

  You know, the modern reception of it all. Uh, we mostly spent our time looking at the way that the Bible was used, which was extremely interesting, but um, very outside of my wheelhouse. Uh, so for my final project, I decided to go my own way and stick to my strengths, which is looking at the Greco-Roman world. And since we were given the option to record a podcast, I thought, hey, why not? I know how to do that. And um, we could release as an episode for you all. So here I am to talk with you all about a certain shirt that was worn by a certain tech bro last year. So during MetaConnect on September 25th of 2004, 24, Mark Zuckerberg sauntered on stage wearing a black sweatshirt with "out zuk, out niehil"

• 7:11Speaker 03

  written across the front. And uh, as you probably know, that's uh, that's Latin, folks, and it translates to either zuk or nothing. Putting the obvious narcissism aside, this begs the question of where does this Latin come from? What is it hearkening to? And what connections are we being asked to make with its inclusion? Well, this is a play off of the phrase "out Kaiser, out niehil", which means either Caesar or nothing. Um, which obviously brings us to our favorite Roman dictator, Julius Caesar. So that's where we'll start. So let's get to know Caesar. Gaius Julius Caesar was born into the Patrician Julius family in 100 BCE. Rome during

• 7:55Speaker 03

  this time was extremely chaotic, to say the least. It was often, um, it was, it was, at this time, there was a series of uh, pretty serious civil wars, and it was essentially a state that was run by like war generals. It was a difficult time and a time of great uncertainty. The city had a massive, massive amount of power over the last couple of centuries and was still a republic. Um, they had defeated great powers rather brutally, but firmly established themselves as the superpower in the Mediterranean. Carthage had been defeated, Greece had been taken over, and they had seats of power all over North Africa, Gaul, Spain, and beyond. The Republic was still going on, but it was chaotic.

• 8:39Speaker 03

  No one could get along, to put it lightly. There was Sulla's civils war, the Mithridatic wars, and the Catalan conspiracy. So to put it lightly, Caesar grew up in, well, interesting times. Caesar, while a patrician, did not come from a very well-known nor wealthy family. The first ever mention we really have for a Julius within Rome's political sphere was in 208 BCE, and that was just as a praetor. We don't even have a Julius consul until about 50 years later in 157 BCE. They did claim descent from Aeneas's son Julius, which pulls them all the way back to the founding of Rome.

• 9:20Speaker 03

  And you know Aeneas, he's the protagonist of the Aeneid, which was written in the late first century BCE, and it was propaganda for the Julius family because of Augustus or Octavian. So, you know, we definitely have some propaganda going on, but back to Caesar. After Sulla named himself dictator in the civil wars in 82 BCE, Caesar, who was not in Sulla's good books, went off to Asia for a while. He was a young man at this point, and at a time where he should be entering military service and starting to make a name for himself. Then, well, he did a pretty good job of that.

• 10:06Speaker 03

  While Caesar wasn't necessarily the most adept man for the job, he was charismatic as all hell, and this will be his strength throughout his life. He knew how to talk a good game, to put it simply. A couple of years later, Sulla dies and Caesar makes his way back to Rome. Here he does what any good young Roman man should do and enters a life of politics. Remember how I said he was good at talking? Well, now he enters law and uh, he talks a lot and does a pretty good job of it. Within a short period of time, he manages to make quite a name for himself as an excellent rhetorician. And this is how he built his name within the Roman world. He was good at talking. He was a bit of a scandalous man who enjoyed the good life and good women.

• 10:50Speaker 03

  And he made plenty of good connections during his time. I think my own favorite uh, story of Caesar is when he had been kidnapped by pirates. They asked for a uh, such amount of money in ransom and he was like, "I'm sorry, do you not know who I am? Ask for more."

• 11:09Speaker 03

  I, I really wish I could spend a little bit more time in the politics of all. Do I? No, no, I don't actually. But, we're gonna continue on. As time goes on, uh, the first triumvirate was formed. So, the first triumvirate was an alliance between Caesar, Pompey, and Crassus. Uh, they all came together to support each other and their goals in politics. And these were all pretty well-known politicians in Rome at the time. Pompey was a very, very impressive uh, military general. And that was his strength within the triumvirate. He was the military force. Crassus, I mean, let's be honest, whoever remembers Crassus?

• 11:54Speaker 03

  Crassus was the money. He had money. Good for him. And while Caesar, Caesar was the enigmatic businessman, baby. He, oh boy, he, once again, he could talk. That's what he was good for. He could get people on his side. Caesar then goes off to Gaul with his own soldiers and is out there for, well, for a bit. Because you see, when he returns to Rome after his successes in Gaul, the triumvirate falls to shit with Caesar and Pompey having a bit of a falling out. In forty nine BCE Caesar crosses the Rubicon which separated Gaul from Rome.

• 12:34Speaker 03

  Essentially, he is marching on Rome at this point with his own soldiers and this starts the civil war. Civil war breaks out for a year and ends with Caesar defeating Pompey, who then flees to Egypt where he is beheaded. There's a bunch of events that happened in Egypt, you know. Caesar and Cleopatra were really well known, they supported each other quite a bit. He really helped her gain power over her little brother. They also have a child together, which is, you know, fun. But what happens in the end of all this is that Caesar ends up gaining ultimate power within Rome. He is declared dictator several times.

• 13:16Speaker 03

  The first was in forty nine BCE when the civil war started, although he sorted out the problems and then immediately seceded, which is what you're supposed to do when you are declared dictator in Rome. This is not a position that you keep and hold on to. It is a, it is a political position. Because the way Rome's politics was set up, you would have two consuls and each consul had their own sort of sphere that they looked after. But these were the two men who were in charge for the year. However, in times of strife and troubles, a dictator could be established. And this was one person who was essentially put in to fix everything

• 13:59Speaker 03

  and sort of get everything back in order and get everything back on the right track. But they were not supposed to hold on to the position. They were supposed to get everything back on track and then step down. That was the rule of dictatorship. So, you know, he does this during his first one. He does it a bit more. And then in forty four BCE, he claims dictatorship for life.

• 14:24Speaker 03

  And this is a problem in Rome, especially a republican Rome. One of the big things about Rome and their sort of understanding of themselves is that there are no kings, you know, there are no kings in Rome. This was decided a long, long time ago in the beginning of their very early history. It is central to their identity, specifically politically. Caesar as dictator for life is essentially king. And for the other politicians, this was a problem. So in the end, on March 15th, 44 BCE, just a couple of months shy of him being made dictator for life, Caesar was assassinated. This is the Ides of March, y'all. Um, you know, the watch out for your coworkers day.

• 15:09Speaker 03

  Essentially, yeah, he was stabbed to death by all of his coworkers on the way to work in an attempt to stop any further reach for power. A2 Brutus.

• 15:20Speaker 03

  Ultimately, this did nothing good for the Roman Republic. It turned Caesar into a martyr for his followers, which then allowed Octavian, his nephew, and later named Augustus, as well as Mark Antony, to further break down the Republic until Octavian eventually becomes the first emperor of Rome. So that was Caesar in his own time. He was a charismatic politician who had so much drive for power that he really set up Rome as it was then for a downfall and then the subsequent empire. And by God, has he been loved in the popular mind throughout all of history. So let's look at that a bit. This all starts with Caesar himself and his own writings.

• 16:03Speaker 03

  So Caesar wrote two separate texts, De Bello Gallico, or The Gallic War, and De Bello Quili, or The Civil War. These are really interesting texts. I've read a bit of De Bello Gallico in its Latin begrudgingly.

• 16:21Speaker 03

  I didn't love it, but it wasn't the worst. But they're interesting in the way that Caesar presents himself as two different entities. See, he is both the author and he is a character within these texts. I mean, he wrote about himself in third person, which is, I don't know, something about that I both love and hate. It's like, oh, the drama of it all, this man is so dramatic. And it's kind of glorious if it wasn't so horrifying. So he often represents himself as being the moral guideline or the emotional guideline. And the man who uses rationality to make ends meet.

• 17:03Speaker 03

  You know, in De Bello Gallico, he does this in apposition of the Gauls, who are, as barbarians, irrational, emotional, and immoral. This is schema that has hold its time in the Greco-Roman world. We always have the rational Greco-Roman man versus the barbarians. He, the Roman man, is, and in this case Caesar, shows himself as being decisive and swift in war. He makes all the right decisions and he does it at such a speed because, well, he's the ultimate amazing Roman man. This is his presentation of himself. And I find it interesting.

• 17:42Speaker 03

  I mean, I do think if we're all going to be writing about our own lives and stories, we kind of want to present ourselves a certain way. And certainly Caesar, who is known for being very good at making things go his own way, I guess, or of carving a path for his own goals. He does this through language so successfully. And I think we see that in these two texts, you know, he is portraying the Gauls this one way as being these sort of barbarians who have strange practices and who do human sacrifice.

• 18:24Speaker 03

  And he is this amazing, upright Roman man who honors the gods and does his duty.

• 18:34Speaker 03

  For Rome. And I think that's really important to his character as he often presents himself as someone who is doing things for the people themselves and for Romans as a whole. This is his presentation of himself, right? He is presenting to his audience a clear characterization. He is a decisive man who does not let emotions run the show in any way at all. The ultimate Roman. And what this is, is propaganda. And we often, when we think of Roman propaganda, we think of Augustus and his, oh my God, do I, the Arapacus and all his different ways of sort of using propaganda in order to send this

• 19:18Speaker 03

  message of himself and his family and Roman politics at the time. And that we often tout him as the best propagandist in Rome, but really, I think we need to look back and look at Caesar because guess what? I think he did it a little bit better than his nephew.

• 19:51Speaker 04

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• 23:03Speaker 03

  Caesar remains charismatic throughout his reception. But we get different visions of him within the Roman world. If we look at Lucan's Bellum Quili, which is an unfinished epic poem that recounts the civil war that Caesar started by crossing the Rubicon. This poem is ultimately about the collapse of the Roman Republic. This was written in about the 60s CE, which is about 100 years after Caesar. So this is a contemporary text in a sense, or as close as we can get in some ways. It is written during sort of the end of the Julio Claudians, so during Nero's reign.

• 23:46Speaker 03

  And Lucan, well, he didn't like Caesar. He portrays him as a man who is reaching for power, as someone who very much so wanted to be king and who was very un-Roman-like in his behavior and motivations. And I think what's interesting about this text is it's also close enough to the Old Republic that, you know, that time of when Rome was a republic is sort of still in the popular memory. And remember, when the empire was going, they kind of were pretending it was still a republic. They were like, oh, no, we're still the Roman Republic, la, la, la, you know?

• 24:29Speaker 03

  Oh, the emperor, no, no, no, he's not an emperor. He's just the first man of Rome. You know, it's an empire, emperor is a king, whatever. This text by Lucan doesn't really depict Caesar all the best. So now, at this point, we have two depictions. We get one from Caesar himself, showing himself as this amazing Roman general, looking out for the well-being of the people. And then we get one of Lucan, where Caesar is a power-hungry tyrant, trying to tear the wall down around him for whatever scraps of power he can get.

• 25:04Speaker 03

  Now let's jump ahead to the 13th century, where we have a text called "Le Fait de Romeine." This is an account of Caesar's life by an unnamed author, and it pulls from various different Roman sources. Caesar himself is one of the sources, and so is Lucan, but we also have other Romans such as Suetonius. The Caesar we get from this is more complicated. He isn't one character. He isn't entirely good. He isn't entirely bad. He isn't the good Roman man Caesar himself presents himself as, but he also isn't the tyrant that Lucan presents. He is complicated. And ultimately, what this did do was embrace the fact

• 25:46Speaker 03

  that Caesar was a person who was multifaceted and complicated, and you know, all the difficult things. But "Le Fait" had a great impact on the Western world. The unnamed author presents this work not as entertainment, but as a learning experience. And its examination becomes widely popular and spreads all throughout the Western world as quick as it could. What this text ultimately does is sets up, what Nigel Mortimer describes in medieval and early modern portrayals of Julius Caesar, as the phenomenon of Caesawarius, establishing Caesar as a prism through which any number of issues may be refracted. This is where we get the way to understand the world through Caesar.

• 26:30Speaker 03

  This is the Caesar who enters Renaissance Italy, who enters the French wars of religion, and who enters the American colonies. When we get to the 21st century, we see then that Caesar becomes a figure for, well, American imperialism. This largely has to do with the Iraqi war and George W. Bush. You know, Bush starting the war in Iraq has been described by some as America crossing the Rubicon, where America now becomes seen as this single imperial power that is trying to protect the Pax Americana, the American peace. And this thought process of using Julius Caesar and his memory to understand American politics is something that can't be ignored.

• 27:14Speaker 03

  We are constantly asked to reflect on history as almost a roadmap for what's happening in the present. Empires rise and they fall. You know, they go on and they go for their own goals and their aims and their... How to expand and really this is started in a lot of ways with Rome in Western thought, might I add, because Rome was seen as the successful empire. And how did this empire start? Well, it started with Caesar. Sure, Augustus was the first emperor, but what is the thing that caused the crumbling of the Republic? That's Caesar. But let's go back

• 27:55Speaker 03

  to "Out Kaiser out Nihil," because that is what Sokolbo put on the show. And I have seen in several places, all interestingly, using the exact same words to say that this saying was originally from Caesar, that Caesar himself said "Out Kaiser out Nihil," and that some scholars agree to this. And through all of my research, I have found absolutely nowhere where this is connected with Caesar. At no point did I see anything that says, yeah, this is definitely something Caesar said, but only in these sort of public facing

• 28:38Speaker 03

  articles or public facing websites am I seeing this is something that Caesar said. What I do see it connected to is Cesare Borgia. So who thought we would meet a Borja? Because I did not. And I really, I have to say, my knowledge of the Borjas and sort of Renaissance, is that a Renaissance? Yeah, Renaissance Italian history is limited. I know the Borjas through Assassin's Creed Brotherhood. You know, I played that in my youth, in my childhood. I remember being fascinated with them, but not looking into them. And I remember weirdly

• 29:21Speaker 03

  loving Lucrezia Borja so much that I named my guitar after her. She was lovingly called Lulu for a while. So, yeah, Cesare Borgia, he's not who I imagined to come across, but it means I got to learn a little bit of him. So Cesare Borgia was an Italian prince in the 14th century. And "Out Kaiser out Nihil," well, that was his personal motto.

• 29:46Speaker 03

  Cesare's name comes from Caesar. I mean, Cesare had his own problems. What man in extreme power does not? He was the illegitimate son of a pope. He had a sister, like I said, Lucrezia. He was the nepo baby of all nepo babies. He got his appointments, his job, his positions of power, really through his connections with the papacy. That's not to say he wasn't good at what he did. He, he wasn't the worst at his job. He managed to handle to it and as well as expand quite a bit. But he did get his position because of his daddy. He was the general of papal armies, as any good Roman, mm, sorry, I mean Italian of his age should be.

• 30:31Speaker 03

  Remarkably, there's a lot of things about him that are actually quite similar to Caesar. But I feel like this should be kept in mind that these are two men who are in positions of power, who are vying for more power. And I think that is what makes them similar to each other. Machiavelli wrote about Cesare Borgia in The Prince. Uh, The Prince was a philosophical work that was supposed to instruct princes in life. Uh, Cesare is in here essentially as an example of something called a lucky prince. You know, it's one who is, gets his position by luck. I'm using quotation marks. There was nepotism, but sure, luck.

• 31:15Speaker 03

  And a lucky prince, you know, gains his power this way and doesn't necessarily do a bad job. But they really struggle with holding on to power. However, Cesare Borgia was shown as being sort of the exception to this. He was, you know, he was a lucky boy, but he did manage to keep his positions of power and keep his appointments quite well. In the end, you know, Cesare was similar to Caesar in the way that he was enigmatic and was at least smart in his political maneuvers. He was charismatic. He had goals of furthering himself within the political sphere of his time. He was a general.

• 31:58Speaker 03

  He was a politician, a prince, whatever. He, I believe he was a cardinal at some point. I don't understand the workings of the Catholic Church, excuse me, but he rose to power. But he wasn't maybe as successful, you know, as Caesar. He didn't quite deconstruct, I guess, the way Caesar did. He kinda did his best then died.

• 32:30Speaker 03

  Because you see, when his close ties with the papacy kinda disintegrated because, well, the pope died and then another pope was put in who was his friend and he died. And then a new pope came into power who, uh, guess what? Didn't quite like Cesare. And then, you know, that kinda led to his eventual death at, uh, Navarro, where he was captured by some knights, killed. They stripped him, took all his, uh, all his valuables and left him dead, naked in a field with just a green tile covering his genitals, which is, um, quite the way to go, unfortunately.

• 33:13Speaker 03

  So then, why is it a problem to connect Alcazar Aldeanil with Caesar himself? I think it's important to remember how Caesar is presented to us and how, what Caesar represents in popular thought, right? Caesar is a disruptor. He is a man who, because of his own ambitions, was happy to see order fall for his own benefit. And I'm not trying to say that the Republic was a good thing. I, I really don't have that many strong opinions about the Republic or Roman politics generally. But Caesar as a, you know, he was about himself ultimately. He wanted to gain power.

• 33:58Speaker 03

  But he's complicated.

• 34:00Speaker 03

  You know, from his own viewpoint, he was a. Political mastermind who upheld everything that Rome was. From Lucan's viewpoint, he was the man who brought an end. He was a political evil mastermind who was happy to see the world fall if it meant that he could get a couple steps ahead. And up until now, all through history, he is a character who is surrounded with decadence. And he is charismatic and he is disruptive, you know, he is tied with Egyptian royalty with Cleopatra. And he is the one who knows how to talk a big game and get people on the side. He crumbles the world around him.

• 34:44Speaker 03

  But this phrase out Kaiser out Nihil, either Caesar or nothing, all or nothing? God, is it a problem? It leaves no space for nuance for people. It calls to one figure, one figure who is happy to watch the world burn as long as he got his own power in the end. And that's what it ultimately means. And I also think it's incredibly important to put aside the idea that this was originally something Caesar said himself. Cause I don't think that's the case at all. Sure, Caesar was an egomaniac, but this phrase is far too on the nose.

• 35:28Speaker 03

  He was popular because he represented those who weren't being represented. He went out of the way to make himself seem like he was standing up for the little guy. And if he came out and he said out Kaiser out Nihil, like, guys, it's, it's me or it's nothing. I mean, this is so anti-Roman, so anti everything they stood for that it just wouldn't have worked. It would be him laying all his cards on the table in a way that just wouldn't have been successful.

• 36:04Speaker 03

  And did Caesar kind of see the world this way? I mean, I don't know. I think he was. I think there was a reach for his own personal power. I think that was his goal.

• 36:14Speaker 03

  But I think he wouldn't have succeeded at it, or maybe gone as far as he did. I don't know if we can say he succeeded or not. He died. He was assassinated by all his coworkers. That's a bummer, but that's too on the nose. But the Caesar of later thought, yeah, I think that makes sense for the Caesar later imagination. It works more for Borgia and his motivations. You know, the Borgia family were disruptive in their own way and hoping to gain more and more power in their own time in Italy. Caesar in the thought of the elite, well, he is a man who essentially managed to grab all the power that he wanted, despite the limitations that were in place.

• 36:59Speaker 03

  He represents the ability to grab power that elite men of Western Europe so happily wanted their whole life. But let's look at this more, right? Sure, Caesar toppled the Republic, but he also wasn't the one who ended up gaining the power in the end. He simply laid the path for others to come after him and create an entire new world. Remember, after Caesar was the Empire, which I mean, what is an emperor if not a king? I feel like I could say this on repeat. No kings in Rome. Hmm, what's an emperor? Whatever. That's not the point. And the thing is, Octavian, you know, later Augustus, what he was able to use the memory of Caesar

• 37:42Speaker 03

  as a man who was beloved of the people in order to bring this change in. So then what does Caesar represent in the end? He is the hearkener of a different order, of a new time. But this is dangerous because to whom does a new order benefit? When this comes from those who are wealthy and have power, who have been riding the wave of capitalism in order to benefit themselves alone? Well, we should be concerned. Because a new world would not be for the benefit of the everyday person. It would, as Caesar was trying to do, benefit only those who are in the upper echelons. To keep them there, to further their own wealth and their own goals.

• 38:26Speaker 03

  And we see this through the policies that they enact and support. Through the change in social media, through the change in policies on their sites that allow bullying of LGBTQ plus peoples. That allow far-right thought that just, oh my god, that just shits on marginalized people. That allows that thought to be protected, but calling those people out, that gets, that gets plagued. Hmm, not, not okay. And they don't try to protect those who are marginalized in society. And this is so concerning. And this is so terrifying. Because what we are seeing then is these big media moguls.

• 39:11Speaker 03

  These are people who have the power to spread information and spread misinformation. Telling us exactly what they want to be. We want to be the hearkeners of a new world order that ultimately benefits us. And doesn't protect others and others in marginalized positions. We don't care about them. They're the little people. We care about us. That is what it's saying.

• 39:41Speaker 03

  And I was first brought attention to this because, I mean, I'm someone who kind of avoids social media a lot these days because I'm tired, okay? I'm tired. But I was kind of brought into this because I saw an article about Blue Sky's CEO, Jake Raper, who had a response to Zuckerberg's shirt. See, she came on stage wearing a shirt that looked exactly like his. But the text on the shirt, instead of "out Zook out Nihil", it said "Munda Sinikai Zeribus", or "A World Without Caesar's". And that's powerful. Because what we're seeing there is an understanding that a world without a person, a person who is fine with dismantling the world around them as long as it benefits them in the end.

• 40:26Speaker 03

  Well, that's, that's a better world. A world where people look out for each other and their community and try to support each other. A world is better without people like Julius Caesar. Okay.

• 40:42Speaker 03

  Is that a great ending? I'm sure my professor right now is like, fantastic. You end it with okay. I'm not good at this. I do my best, but anyways, I did want to share this with you all because I think it's interesting. And while modern reception is not my strong suit, um, and it's certainly something I don't enjoy doing. I do love interacting with, and I do love seeing other people's work on modern reception. It's been important to dig into these bit more and to piece it out.

• 41:15Speaker 03

  And why not share it with you all? Because you all know it's who love ancient history as much as Liv and I do. And I, I'm excited to hear what you guys think about this. You know where to find us and uh, until all the time. Liv's not here to say her thing, so I'll just say mine, which is, and I'm Michaela and I'm here too. Peace out, y'all.

• 41:54Liv Albert?

  Ugh nerds, thank you so much for listening again. This was Michaela's first solo episode and I am hell bent on getting her keen to do more. Um, but she is rightfully, you know, this is new. This is, it's scary. It took me eight years to get as comfortable as I am. And even still, one mean comment can throw me for a loop. So let us know what you think. Please, uh, give us suggestions maybe on these types of historical topics or misrepresentations, misunderstandings of history. Do you have more suggestions? Are there things you'd love for Michaela to talk about in this way? Because I know there are lots that I would love to hear Michaela talk about.

• 42:36Liv Albert?

  So let us know again in the Spotify comments, if you're listening there or via Instagram comments, emails, I don't know, whatever, let us know what you think. But don't be mean because that's not helpful to anyone.

• 42:51Liv Albert?

  Let's Talk What Miss Baby is written and produced by me, Liv Albert, except here, which obviously I did not write or produce any of this. This episode of Let's Talk What Miss Baby was written and produced by Michaela Pangewish, the Hermes to my Olympians. Select music by Luke Chaos. The podcast is part of the Memory Collective Podcast Network, for which there will be more information soon. We are getting there. Sign up for the newsletter at mythsbaby.com/newsletter. Again, we're getting there. The site is currently getting a whole new rebrand. It should be ready soon. And until then, I can't really do too much with it, including newsletters. Let's be honest, I've been working on The Odyssey and I keep forgetting to fully finalize a newsletter, but one day, one day

• 43:35Liv Albert?

  we'll have them. We're getting, we're getting our shit together slowly but surely. ADHD is fun. I also am eager for more questions for the next Q and A episode. So if you have something you want me to talk about, a question, comment, concern, whatever, do you have something you just want me to ramble about? Great. Tell me. mythsbaby.com/questions. There you can find a form to fill out just for simple, easy questions that way. Or you can try out the new voice note feature that I am trying to get into. I would love to be able to play your questions, comments, concerns, whatever via voice note in the episode. How fun would that be? So far, I've only gotten one and it was a person telling me things that I didn't need to hear and definitely could have been in a message and not a voice note that I was

• 44:19Liv Albert?

  really excited to get, but then was completely unusable because it was... Anyway, it's fine. You know, go leave me one of those that I can play in the episode. Would you? Thanks. That'd be great. I'm losing it. I gotta go back to The Odyssey, guys. It's exciting. It's all gonna be worth it in the end. I am Liv and I love this shit.

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