#75 Suzanne Iasenza: Rewriting Relationship Narratives

Sex therapist Dr. Suzanne Iasenza explains how our personal narratives determine how we grow as a couple, how we communicate, even how we make love. Go Premium: Members get early access, ad-free episodes, hand-edited transcripts, searchable transcripts, member-only episodes, and more. Sign up at: https://fs.blog/membership/ Every Sunday our newsletter shares timeless insights and ideas that you can use at work and home. Add it to your inbox: https://fs.blog/newsletter/ Follow Shane on Twitter at: https://twitter.com/ShaneAParrish Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  You don't know who you are projecting onto a partner at any given moment that is still unfinished business. And that's one of the reasons why I spend so much time with sexual histories, let's say, is to start to identify the narratives that rise to the surface when people are curious from the first memory of sexuality all the way to now. And what are the ones that still carry so much meaning about self, or other, or sexuality, or intimacy, or trust, or that still is unfinished? So that with the partner, sometimes it's not your trusted partner you're making love with that night, it becomes your father.

• 0:45Shane Parrish?

  Hello and welcome. I'm Shane Parrish and this is The Knowledge Project, a podcast exploring the ideas, methods, and mental models that help you master the best of what other people have already figured out. As some of you have no doubt noticed recently, we've started exploring more diverse subjects. The Knowledge Project aims to explore pretty much everything from science and history to relationships and decision-making, all with the goal of helping you better understand yourself and the world around you so that you can live a more meaningful and conscious life. We truly want to master the best of what other people have already figured out, and that's not limited to one particular domain. To learn more and stay up to date on new episodes, go to fs.blog/podcast.

• 1:28Shane Parrish?

  Farnham Street puts together a weekly newsletter that I think you'll love. It's called Brain Food, and it comes out every Sunday. Much like this podcast, it's high-signal, timeless, and mind-expanding. You can read what you've been missing at fs.blog/newsletter. Today I'm speaking with Suzanne Iasenza, a psychotherapist and sexual therapist in New York who also teaches at the Ackerman Institute. This conversation took place in Suzanne's office in New York. What interested me most about talking to Suzanne was her work on narratives, the stories that we tell ourselves that shape what we see and how we behave. Not only do we have a narrative about who we are as a person, but we have a narrative about our partner and our relationship, and even what sex should be.

• 2:12Shane Parrish?

  Narratives are interesting to me because they affect all aspects of our life. If you want to understand someone, you need to understand the narrative they tell themselves about themselves. I was curious as how narratives affect couples and how we can change those narratives. While we primarily talk about relationships, the lessons here apply to all aspects of our life, including how to replace the narratives, how to change them when they age off. This conversation is fascinating. I think you'll enjoy it. It's time to listen and learn.

• 2:53Shane Parrish?

  Suzanne, how would you explain what you do for a living?

• 2:56Speaker 00

  I say I'm a couple and sex therapist mostly, even though I do individual therapy. But the majority of my writing and my teaching and the majority of my clinical work is with couples now.

• 3:10Shane Parrish?

  What are the most common problems that couples come to you with?

• 3:13Speaker 00

  Almost all couples, whether it's they have sexual issues or other issues, usually will say "communication." That's one of people's most favorite presenting descriptions, is they'll say "we need help with communication," which is the general catch-all kind of bucket.

• 3:33Shane Parrish?

  Does that mean like I'm saying something and my partner doesn't understand or doesn't agree with me?

• 3:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, see, when you unpack, "we need communication help," it can mean, "well, I like apples and he likes oranges," right? We're having trouble with differences. So it might not even be communication's really the problem, it's that they're not able or they don't have the skills to be able to hear each other out, to be able to then find compromises, which is a big skill in couples. So it may not even be that they don't even know each other that well, that they're not communicating each other, you know, about themselves that well. It could be that they don't know how to manage differences, to find compromises, that they may even feel that their differences mean they should be breaking up. That they're not compatible.

• 4:20Speaker 00

  As opposed to how do you manage to deal with differences? It's a rare couple that everybody is exactly the same. In fact, that probably isn't that healthy. If people were like carbon copies of each other. Um, so, uh, but that's the catchall phrase is it's rare a couple will come in and not have communication be part of it.

• 4:38Shane Parrish?

  Is the communication a skill as in people are lacking this skill or communication is um, just a general term for all the problems that people are having?

• 4:48Speaker 00

  It's more the latter, I think, at least initially. Once I help people begin to unpack that and understand what do you mean by communication? Cause when people say we need help with communication, I don't say, oh, yes, I understand what you mean. I often say, tell me what you mean by that. And I might even say, you tell me to one of the partners, you tell me what you mean and you know, if you have a different definition of communication, that's fine too. Very early on, no matter what the presenting problem is, I'll usually want them to each tell me their definition of whatever that presenting problem is and start to normalize and even encourage that there could be two different perspectives on it. So that people can begin to, if they're not that differentiated, it's called, that they can learn how to be more differentiated, which means really say what your truth is.

• 5:33Speaker 00

  Even if you're afraid it's bad news for your partner, let's create the safety here to get it out. Because whatever way you're not saying truly what you need or what you don't want or whatever is creating probably while you're in my office in the first place.

• 5:47Shane Parrish?

  What are the reasons that people don't speak truth to their partner? I mean, I imagine some of the common ones would be, I don't feel safe doing that, I don't want to hurt them.

• 5:56Speaker 00

  Yep. I don't want to hurt them. Or I feel personally so ashamed about whatever this secret is or this truth is that I don't, I don't think I can bear hearing myself say this out loud to my partner. So even if the partner really proves to be truly a loving, nonjudgmental partner, that doesn't mean that the self is that understanding. So it could be more of a conflict within the self about why someone can't put words to it. That's why with couples often, um, whether they're, especially if they present with sexual issues, but even if not, sometimes I will do some individual sessions for history or just for them to tell me a little bit more about a particular problem.

• 6:41Speaker 00

  Because sometimes they really need to feel less concerned about an audience. And the partner and I could be a little too much to share some truths. And if they can get it out with me in a sa- with a safer uh kind of conversation that I can offer that I'm not gonna be reactive to what they have to say, like a partner could, um, that then I could help them bring it into the couple uh sessions.

• 7:05Shane Parrish?

  I imagine it's a really good sign if you care about somebody enough that you don't wanna hurt them. How do you work through somebody whose primary motive is, I don't wanna hurt my partner? And how is that different from somebody who's, I don't wanna reveal the truth to myself?

• 7:19Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm. Yeah, cuz I think it is basically, I think, um.

• 7:23Shane Parrish?

  Is it like, once I say it, it's true, and then if I don't say it, it's not true?

• 7:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, partially. I mean, uh, when you think about, let's say, a person, well, you know, here's a more dramatic one. Well, let's say you have that homosexual man, the gay man, who got married heterosexually. To try, either because he couldn't bear it, or he never came out, um, or he's hoping it will go away. Um, and now it's twenty years later, and either they have no sex life cuz he really just can't do it, or he's having outside sexual activity with men that he's lying about or keeping secret and feeling terrible about it. I mean, there could be so many different variations. And um, how is he gonna bring that into a long-term relationship with a wife that as a person he truly loves and admires and is the mother of his children,

• 8:11Speaker 00

  and he might have all these other things about his life that me- that is so meaningful and he doesn't wanna lose? Imagine that. That's a pretty rough one, kinda truth to bring out. Uh, and for many of those partners with those kinds of secrets, that's devastating. For many of the partners, they're like, how could I even have not known this? And what does it mean? This isn't something I can even make better. Like, let's say the big secret was an affair. If he was having an affair with another woman, let's say. At least, I mean, the wife still could be devastated, but she could think, well, maybe I'm gonna fight for him if I'm not gonna like reject him and throw him out. But like, something like, uh, someone whose sexual orientation is different than the partner they've been married to? Uh, that's a big one. That's one of those really painful.

• 8:56Shane Parrish?

  Cause it makes you question the foundation of the person that you're with. Like, do I actually know this person too?

• 9:01Speaker 00

  That's right, and even question my own uh reality. Like, some partners will say, how could I not have seen that?

• 9:09Shane Parrish?

  Hmm.

• 9:10Speaker 00

  How could, there must have been clues. What am I in denial? Uh, so it can make a person question their own reality, their own um, truth.

• 9:18Shane Parrish?

  Retrospectively, are there, are there clues?

• 9:21Speaker 00

  Sometimes there are, and sometimes there aren't. That's true with affairs, or let's say sexual orientation secrets. Um, or kink secret, there's so many different secrets people can hold.

• 9:32Shane Parrish?

  Why do you think we're not more honest about that?

• 9:34Speaker 00

  Well, some of the secrets, unfortunately, that's why I think it's important to have some individual sessions with partners. Is some people are under the impression that the secret's gonna be so devastating. And some of them could possibly be, let's say if it's finally a gay man who maybe has to leave his wife to, to be happy. Um, but that's more, a little more extreme, but let's say it might be a sexual difference that really could be negotiated, or sometimes it's a sexual difference that a partner may assume that their partner can't handle. And they never gave the partner a chance because they kept it a shameful secret for so long. Like with some kink things, or there could be all sorts of different, um, let's say sexual preferences people could have that

• 10:18Speaker 00

  they never, they have so much self judgment about it, or they were shamed about it with other partners prior to this partner, that they don't even take the chance to share it. And that's my job is to say, can I help you maybe bring this into the couple's work, or the sex therapy work? In a way that um, might actually not be as disparate, or you know, an outcome as you think it would be.

• 10:44Speaker 02

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• 11:13Speaker 03

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• 11:36Shane Parrish?

  Can you walk me through a little bit of the ethics of that? Where you would know a secret and be talking with a couple that doesn't want to be disclosed, but you're actually working for the couple? Like, how does that?

• 11:47Speaker 00

  Well, that's a really good que-- that's a very big question that therapists will ask a lot of times because they get very anxious about secrets.

• 11:52Shane Parrish?

  Right.

• 11:52Speaker 00

  But secrets in therapy, in couple therapy, is a major issue you have to deal with. And what often you-- what's most important is before I meet with halves of couples, with partners, I talk about secrets. So it's open. And if you read enough of the literature, all couple therapists have different ways of dealing with this. But the most important underlying factor is that you're honest with the couple, that secrets could exist. Obviously, you don't know if secrets do exist when you first see the couple. You have no idea. But you have a discussion about. I like to talk to couples in the beginning about secrecy versus privacy, for instance. I think a lot of people either have no clue that those are two different things,

• 12:34Speaker 00

  or they have real different definitions of what privacy or secrecy is, which is really interesting, that they never realize their partner saw differently. But when I do want to do individual history-taking, especially with sexual issues, I do very extensive sexual histories, like I'm talking three, four, five, perhaps, sessions individually with each partner. Because I really want to give them a chance to sit with me from their very first memory of sexuality, which could go way back to five years old, all the way through their whole history up to how they became a sexual being now. So I really take my time with that. So I do say before I do that, I'd like to do those individual histories. And how would we want to handle the material?

• 13:18Speaker 00

  Because either one of you might tell me secrets or things that are private. Privacy versus secrecy. Let's talk about that. And who, do you feel comfortable with me holding those? So that many couple therapists will talk to clients about, can I hold things? Do you, do you trust that I could hold them with the couple in mind? Because if someone has a shameful secret that's impacting on the couple and they don't tell me, if there isn't room for them to tell me that, I don't know if they're gonna reach the goals that they need to reach. But it is very, you have to have a tolerance for certain secrets. Like what if someone tells you they're having an affair? What if someone tells you that they're gay? When they're married to, you know, someone of the opposite sex?

• 14:03Speaker 00

  Those are big, those are bigger secrets. You know, secrets are all relative, aren't they? But versus they had an affair thirty years ago and it's ended. It ended, you know.

• 14:14Shane Parrish?

  How would you define secrecy versus privacy?

• 14:17Speaker 00

  Privacy is an area of human experience that does not impact the couple negatively, especially in terms of understood or implied truth. You know, between them or agreement. Probably the most common is, let's say you have a monogamy agreement. And, and that's been agreed upon consciously. And someone's breaking that monogamy agreement. That's probably the most common kind of, that wouldn't be private. That would be secret in the sense that that would be, that would negatively impact upon the couple. And it's something that is affecting the couple. That's different than, let's say, someone masturbates

• 14:59Speaker 00

  and doesn't want the partner to know when they masturbate. That's more privacy. Or what they fantasize about when they masturbate. That's more private. But, you know, that's my definition. But what's very interesting is, what's more important is what's their definition.

• 15:17Shane Parrish?

  Right.

• 15:17Speaker 00

  Because partners may have different ideas on what privacy is. I've had some, some clients tell me that a partner, their partner should never, ever fantasize about anyone but them. And if they did, then that shouldn't be private. That should come out in therapy and we have to deal with it because there's something wrong with it. And when people have said that, I don't sit there and say, wow, that's not a good definition. Let me tell you mine. I say, well, what do you think about it to your partner? You know, what do you think about that?

• 15:46Shane Parrish?

  Because it only matters in the context of that relationship.

• 15:49Speaker 00

  If that partner says, oh, yeah, I have the same definition. He better not have that fantasy either, then I'm not going to mess with that entirely unless I determine that that kind of very particular definition of privacy is impacting negatively upon the couple or what their goal is. And then I might want to make that connection, not in a judgmental way, but say, you know, I think that maybe that could be affecting why you're not as open sexually with each other. Because maybe you're very afraid that if another fantasy comes in, you shut down. Because you know that you're going to be betraying your partner. Or your own definition of what proper privacy or fantasies are. So it's all about assessment of how might that definition of privacy or secrecy be affecting

• 16:34Speaker 00

  what the couple's coming in with as a problem or what they're trying to achieve.

• 16:37Shane Parrish?

  You've been doing this a long time. I'm sure you're not surprised by a lot of stuff that comes in.

• 16:41Speaker 00

  I usually tell people when they struggle telling me a secret, I say, trust me. I've heard it all. And not that that probably is true in the whole universe, but I've heard a lot in over thirty years I've been practicing. So, yeah, I've heard a lot.

• 16:55Shane Parrish?

  I'm curious as to what you know now about couples that make it that you didn't know when you started. Is it situational as in sort of somebody's homosexual or there was an affair? Is it communicative as in we're just not hearing each other and we're not understanding each other? Is it the willingness, the sheer willingness by both partners to be all in? I don't know what it would be. I'm curious as to.

• 17:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm probably going to give you such a disappointing answer. You know, I always tell people that when I train even graduate students, I say, you know, the longer I've practiced, the less I can really predict how a couple's going to turn out. I've become more humble over time and I've been more surprised over time.

• 17:42Shane Parrish?

  So couples that you think sort of like in your head would make it, don't make it, and couples that you're like these guys have no hope.

• 17:49Speaker 00

  How in the world could these two people who come in and are so mean to each other, are so reactive, are so uh disconnected and uh and those are the cases really that I think I've seen the most change is I'm a very more long-term, in the trenches type of therapist. I tend to see people more longer term. Um and I and I'm an analyst. I do psychoanalytic kind of work, not just behavioral sex therapy and couple therapy. I'm kind of a mixture of all those. So um I really appreciate the unfolding over time of levels of awareness and also especially the time needed to deal, let's say, with trauma. If someone's been sexually abused or or um physically abused as a kid or experienced abandonment or death

• 18:33Speaker 00

  or illness in the family or there's so many kinds of attachment, we call it wounds or trauma. And the impact of that could really manifest so difficultly now in a couple. But if people uh allow themselves to unfold, it could take years, but people can turn corners. And I've seen people turn corners that if you took the videotape in the first session, you would have said, I can't believe this is the same couple.

• 19:00Shane Parrish?

  Is it is it because being mean to each other is sort of an indication of where you're at versus something that might be deeper in the sense of like one person's emotional and the other person is like not emotional or?

• 19:12Speaker 00

  Well, those are more of the surface reasons. Deeper reasons can be uh what we call in more analytic work, they could be projecting onto the partner, not knowing this is an unconscious process. So that with more intimacy and people could be very confused about this because they say to me, Suzanne, we never had this problem before we got married or we never had this problem before we moved in together or we never had this problem before we had our first child or, you know, or we bought our first house. And they get confused because they think, well, isn't it progress when you get married or have a kid or move in together? And then why would things get worse when they get better? And actually, no, it would make sense. It could get worse, not better. Why? Because the more Committed you become. The more, I often say to people like with sex therapy, you know what, all sex is group sex.

• 19:56Speaker 00

  And they laugh and I said, well, this is what I mean. You think you're in bed alone with your partner, you're not. You're in bed with your trauma history or attachment history, your trauma history or attachment history. Your mother and father, if you had whatever the parental couple was, their relationship and what you internalized about it. How they treated you, all your sibling relationships are in there. All the intergenerational transmission of trauma, if your grandmother or grandfather or whatever, there are things that happen there that can be transmitted down the generations. Let's add it all, the intersectionality kinds of wounds, race, class, sexual orientation, gender identity. There are so many things, narratives, I call it narratives, in bed with you unconsciously.

• 20:39Speaker 00

  So that you don't know who you are projecting onto a partner at any given moment that is still unfinished business. And that's one of the reasons why I spend so much time with sexual histories, let's say. Is to start to identify the narratives that rise to the surface when people are curious from the first memory of sexuality all the way to now. And what are the ones that still carries so much meaning about self or other or sexuality or intimacy or trust or? That still is unfinished so that with the partner, sometimes it's not your trusted partner you're making love with that night. It becomes your father, who is a rageaholic or an alcoholic and you could shift into that space and not even know it. And before you know it, you're losing erection or intercourse becomes painful.

• 21:23Speaker 00

  Or you can't have an orgasm that you normally do, or you just get turned off or whatever, you go numb, right? So to make people aware of that is really important. So it's not just all surface, like you could be mad about what happens today, we had a fight of the week. But those deeper narratives and the meaning that um that they carry is really a bigger picture to get, you know, to get aware of, to become aware of and to be able to shift. And change or challenge or heal whatever wounds are behind those narratives.

• 21:53Shane Parrish?

  Talk to me a little bit about narratives. It sounds, in the couple's context, maybe leaving sex aside for now, we'll sort of get to that. But I would imagine that there's a narrative the couple has that's external, sort of like the show that they put on to other people.

• 22:08Speaker 00

  Like the performativity of the couple?

• 22:09Shane Parrish?

  The performative nature of it. I have a theory that the happier a couple looks on social media, the less happy they are, but I don't know.

• 22:17Speaker 00

  That might not be a bad, you know, hypothesis.

• 22:19Shane Parrish?

  The more they go out of their way to demonstrate how happy they are, basically. But then there's the narrative that each partner in that relationship has about not only themselves, but their partner, and then their relationship as a separate entity.

• 22:34Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 22:35Shane Parrish?

  Talk to me about, can you expand on that?

• 22:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, there are all these levels of narratives. If anyone wants to read about it, or I'm very, there are many theorists about narrative therapy. It's been around for a long time, but one of the favorite people that I draw a lot of my work from or my writing, my presenting is Michael White's work. I don't know if you know him, but Michael White was, unfortunately he's passed away, was a family therapist from Australia. And he developed, first with Michael Exton, and then he did a lot on his own, of a narrative therapy and family therapy. And he talked more about how our narratives can be generated from more political or social outside of ourselves, what society tells us that we internalize, and then can make us feel broken or dysfunctional or less than.

• 23:24Speaker 00

  But when you think about it, the family is a community too. The family can impart narratives onto a child, right? Or even a relationship can impart narratives onto a couple or partners in the relationship. Like, I'm very curious how people, the minute I meet them and I say, "Why are you here?", they're gonna begin to tell me their narrative, right? They're gonna tell me a story. They're gonna say, "We're a sexist couple", or "We can't communicate", or "We're not compatible", or whatever, right? So, and then that's a story. But then I want them to unpack that, that narrative. Or "We can't", or "We're a no-sex couple" is a very major one, right? Or "We're a low-desire couple".

• 24:08Shane Parrish?

  Okay, walk me through how you would unpack that.

• 24:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, when it comes to... Desire is a really wonderful nar- that is all narrative, desire. Because desire only exists since the nineteen seventies. Prior to nineteen seventy, there was no narrative for desire in sexuality. Because prior to the seventies, we had Masters and Johnson's model of what makes everybody sexually health- what sexual health looks like. And in Masters and Johnson's model, desire wasn't part of it.

• 24:39Shane Parrish?

  What was their model?

• 24:40Speaker 00

  Their model just started with, um, didn't even use the word arousal. They looked at the body, not really psychology as much. Um, and then there would be a plateau and then an orgasm. It was an orgasm-based model, so orgasm was in their model. And excitement was in their model, which they meant physical excitement, um, not subjective arousal, which is a different thing. But anyway, so it was a very kind of body-based. The body gets excited, you know, penises get hard, vulvas get wet, whatever. And then you have an orgasm. And everybody should follow that, that one model. So desire wasn't part of it. It wasn't until Helen Singer Kaplan's work in the nineteen seventies and eighties that she said, and she was an analyst and a sex therapist here in New York.

• 25:24Speaker 00

  And she said, "Something's missing from this model." So she came out with a tri-phasic model, three steps also, but beginning with desire. So think about prior to that model, and then that model was integrated into the DSM or Diagnostic Manual, so all doctors and therapists were saying, "Okay, this is now what healthy sexuality is. This is the narrative of healthy sexuality. Now you have desire disorders." Because prior to having the component of desire, you, how could you have the story that I have a dysfunction? It didn't exist. Prior to that, you either had excitement problems, men had erectile problems, or women couldn't get excited, but not desire, or you had orgasm problems. So it's, you know, we know this, I mean, I think most people know,

• 26:09Speaker 00

  that medical diagnoses are stories and narratives, right? And they tell us what makes us silk, or what makes us well. And when they come up with a new diagnosis, now you can have a whole nother family of narratives of sickness. So it's true with sex as it can be with any other kind of diagnosis. But that desire component, since the 1980s, I think is one of the major narratives, I believe, creates problems in couples, because most couples come in with desire disorders. Either discrepant desire, one person has quote "higher desire", the other one stuck with the quote "lower desire role", or they come in with the no desire couple. And many people believe that that makes them dysfunctional and sexually broken.

• 26:54Speaker 00

  So a lot of the narrative, what I would do in a first session, if a couple comes in and says, "Oh, we're a no sex couple, we have no desire, we're broken", I might say, "What makes you think you have to have desire to have a sexual life, a fulfilling sexual life?". Just that question. That's how a narrative therapist works, is you start to ask questions that make people aware that that's a story, it's not a fact.

• 27:18Shane Parrish?

  Is the opposite of that sort of like scheduling sex? Like, "We're just gonna have sex every Friday night"?

• 27:22Speaker 00

  No, actually, the later models, after Helen Singer Kaplan's model, there are two other models that I think are really important. One was by Joanne Luline in the later 80s, and then the other is Rosemary Basson's work, who by the way, comes from Canada.

• 27:38Shane Parrish?

  From Canada?

• 27:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, yay, Canada. Actually, Canada has, really, this is a sidebar, but all the great research in sexuality comes from Canada.

• 27:46Shane Parrish?

  We have a lot of sex in Canada.

• 27:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's cold, you better do something up there to stay warm. But also, I think your government just funds it more, I don't know what it is, but the large majority of the best sex research, in my opinion, all comes from Canada. And certainly, the model that has changed the DSM now, now in the DSM, women cannot be diagnosed with desire disorder anymore. Hypoactive sexual desire's been removed because of the really groundbreaking work that Rosemary Basson, Laurie Brado, others in Canada, actually documented that for women. Desire arousal orgasm, that model does not work. The Helen Singer Kaplan model doesn't work for women. For most women, desire follows arousal. It does not precede it.

• 28:32Speaker 00

  That is such a major paradigm shift.

• 28:34Shane Parrish?

  Huh.

• 28:34Speaker 00

  And it was di- it was actually documented with really sound research. Such good research that they went to the DSM committee recently and it's been changed. Now, poor men are still stuck with having hyposexual desire disorder. So you guys, you've got to get in there and advocate for yourselves. I don't think any human being should have to be burdened with that as a diagnosis. I think it's a faulty diagnosis. I don't think it helps anybody. So what's the replacement? Willingness, which is what Lulun starts with in her model. She doesn't not have desire in it, but the first step in her model is willingness. And it doesn't end in orgasm also. So she doesn't make whether someone ends in an orgasm or not as broken or not.

• 29:19Speaker 00

  She ends with pleasure. So to start with willingness and end with pleasure.

• 29:25Shane Parrish?

  Pleasure is the measure.

• 29:26Speaker 00

  Right, pleasure is Emily Nagos.

• 29:28Shane Parrish?

  Yeah, Emily.

• 29:29Speaker 00

  Have you interviewed her?

• 29:30Shane Parrish?

  We have, yeah, yeah.

• 29:31Speaker 00

  She's fabulous.

• 29:32Shane Parrish?

  She's amazing, yeah.

• 29:33Speaker 00

  That's right. So she talks a lot about that research. Pleasure is so much more of a helpful concept for a sexual outcome than orgasm. But I would argue that let's change, let's really make a sea change in the beginning and not make desire have to be the first step. How about willingness? And then allow for arousal to emerge in whatever way, if it does. And then desire, at least what the Canadians found with women. Arousal happens first in women, desire happens after. So once a woman gets aroused, she could feel her desire much more than feel, you know, desire first.

• 30:10Shane Parrish?

  What are the common ways that women get aroused?

• 30:15Speaker 00

  Well, you know, it's I I don't know if women are that different from men in terms of arousal. Arousal can happen in so many different ways. Um, arousal can happen through physical things that happen, like the hand in the right place with the right pace.

• 30:29Shane Parrish?

  Mm hmm.

• 30:29Speaker 00

  Whatever, right? It can happen with what happens in our heads, like fantasy, right? Or anything that uh either just appears to us, like, you know, your lover comes in is looking hot. To like you just bring in a fantasy of the last time you made love and it was so great. Or even the guy down the hall and that that turns you on while you're doing, you know, your stuff with your partner. So it could be in in your mind. Um, and it could be uh also relational. Like, um, it it, you know, sometimes the old joke, it's it tells someone, oh, you wanna do foreplay, then put the kids to bed. Tell your partner, your your wife or your girlfriend, she can go and rest and take a nice bath. And you feed the kids, put them to bed, put out the garbage, clean the uh and that's foreplay, right? And now she's really gonna be up.

• 31:14Shane Parrish?

  Is there any truth to that?

• 31:15Speaker 00

  Well, actually, I think for some people, the relational is very high on the list for arousal. Or kindness.

• 31:23Shane Parrish?

  Like you need to feel connected.

• 31:24Speaker 00

  Connected, exactly. So for some people, or intellect, some people sit down and they have the hottest intellectual conversation. And then they wanna have sex. And so I always ask people even from attraction stories, like when you first met. I'll often say, well, the minute you met him or her, um, what was it that attracted you to them? And you know, you'd be surprised how many people, it is not sexual chemistry, or it might not even be looks. It could be, I love the way her voice sounded behind me in class. I heard that voice answer that teacher's question. I said, who is that woman? Or for some people, it could be spiritual. Or for some people, it could be they're on the picket line together screaming their heads off about something political and it's a political passion.

• 32:09Speaker 00

  So it's not always all based on, attraction's not always based on on the body. Or even on sexuality, sexual chemistry. That's important for people to appreciate. And I think arousal works the same way. For some people, it could be very verbal, like I had a really good talk and then I could feel turned on to that person. And for other people, it could be almost strictly physical. They either look good or they don't. And that could be harder because over time in long term couples, people age, right? Sometimes people gain weight.

• 32:38Shane Parrish?

  That was my next question, like, how does arousal change during the course of a relationship? I mean, when you're nineteen and twenty, does it look, I'm assuming it looks a little bit different than when you're seventy?

• 32:50Speaker 00

  It can, but I usually find, yeah, they're generalizations. You can say that as people age, um, does arousal become um, more um, does it diminish over time? But for some, it depends on the individuals. For some people, the uh, in a long-term relationship, they might even be more aroused by their partner in their eight. I've worked with some people in their eighties, it's so great to work with eighty-year-olds. Because for some people, they love, they fall in love with their partners more as they get older. Because the love for them, and even the turn-on is about everything they've gone through. It's such a ru- uh, rich lived life through all the real ups and downs. That they so love that person and they so wanna pleasure them, or they're still so turned on.

• 33:34Speaker 00

  And also, sometimes, some studies will say, you know, being able to remember how hot it was when you were twenty when you're eighty doesn't hurt either. In other words, that's where fantasy could come in.

• 33:43Shane Parrish?

  Right.

• 33:44Speaker 00

  Because uh, some eighty-year-olds, the parts aren't even working the same way. They're not even having penetrative sex because they can't for whatever reason, that medication issues, health issues, whatever. And they're still having hot sex. Because if you're broad, if you define sex broad enough, then almost anything could be hot. And it, and it's all, you know, the mind is really a large part of sexuality too, it's not always how the body parts work.

• 34:07Shane Parrish?

  Can you walk me through how people typically explain sex and then expand our definition of sex?

• 34:13Speaker 00

  Almost everyone, uh, and it doesn't matter whether they're lesbian, gay male, heterosexual, trans. Most people, because that's the, the narrative we're taught, is uh, usually the definition of sex is genital. It, it has to involve the genitals, sometimes has to involve penetration, not always, and has to end in orgasm. Those three components usually the most common when people say, we're not having sex, we wanna have more sex. Usually I don't say, oh, yeah, okay, we'll work on that, I'll say, what do you mean by sex? And then I'd ask, you tell me your version, you tell me your version. And then there's actually something I suggest that couples do when I work with them called the sexual menu.

• 34:53Speaker 00

  And I often like to make jokes about, you know, comparing food to sex, but it's like, how broad, you know, can your sexual menu be? So it's great to have intercourse, nothing wrong with penetrative sex or things that end in orgasm, but there's a whole lot more you could do with a body that involves more than just genitals or orgasm even. And so first, I help people actually deconstruct sex. Develop, and I might say, you know, just like with food, would you wanna have a hamburger every night? Maybe, but maybe not, could get boring. Or you might prefer hamburger, I might prefer Chinese food, can we kinda mix it up? And one night we go to the hamburger joint, the other night, next night we go for Chinese.

• 35:36Speaker 00

  But it's also, as you age, actually, older people usually, who are still erotic and sexually together at eighty, know how to deconstruct sex, because they've just had to. Over time, the body parts might not work because of illnesses or medications or things that happen. And if they're really still got it for each other, they will find a way to enjoy eroticism more broadly defined.

• 36:03Shane Parrish?

  So when you take out the death, like orgasm as sort of like the end of a sexual encounter.

• 36:09Speaker 00

  Right.

• 36:10Shane Parrish?

  Are what we're really talking about is intimacy? It's just a physical intimacy?

• 36:15Speaker 00

  It could be intimacy, it could be connection.

• 36:19Speaker 00

  Rosemary Basson, the Canadian woman, whose work is so really paradigm shifting. Her end, her, one of her end goals, she would say is more like satisfaction, but it's not just physical or sexual satisfaction, it could be emotional satisfaction. So many times I'll say to people, look, you have at least three different models out there, narratives with sex is. You could say desire, ending in orgasm, that's the more traditional one. Okay, nothing wrong with it, if it works, you're great, if it works for both, you're great. But there are two other ones, one starts with willingness and ends with pleasure. And another one starts with like a willingness, Basson would say, but ends in satisfaction, which could be like connection, like emotional connection.

• 37:01Speaker 00

  So some partners could say, I had a great time with sex Saturday night, and I'd say, good, tell me about it. They didn't get aroused, they didn't have an orgasm. They touched, they did a lot of touching, kissing, hugging, maybe their partner got aroused, maybe their partner came. And for them, the enjoyment and the true kind of a pleasure, as Emily might say, right? To see their partner be pleasured and have an orgasm. So also, we talk about in the work that you don't have to always have reciprocal sex every time you do it. That's also a burden. Many couples don't have sex because one of the partners may not want to, let's say, be up for an orgasm or even be able to experience arousal that easily.

• 37:45Speaker 00

  So they might opt out and have nothing. And wouldn't it be great if one person would pleasure the other one? That could be complete that night. And it doesn't have to mean everybody has orgasms both time or everybody even gets aroused at the same level both times. So to be able to be more fluid that way is a real resource for couples.

• 38:03Shane Parrish?

  In the couples that you work with is desire or initiation, better word for this. Is initiation usually done by a gender over another gender? Is there, is there a biological reason for that? Is it a cultural reason? Is it? Because it strikes me, and I don't know, right? Because I don't counsel people.

• 38:25Speaker 00

  Right.

• 38:26Shane Parrish?

  But it strikes me is that there, the males would initiate more than the females.

• 38:31Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm. And then what happens in the gay male couple? Which?

• 38:33Shane Parrish?

  I have no idea. Yeah.

• 38:35Speaker 00

  When you have two males.

• 38:36Shane Parrish?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 38:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think it really, probably most sex therapists would say it's more socially constructed than biologically determined, even though, yes, cisgendered men have more testosterone in their systems than cisgendered women, let's say. There's a hormonal difference which can contribute to levels of desire, because testosterone's sort of the desire hormone. And if you have more of that, maybe you might initiate more, because you could feel more, quote, horny. But who really initiates or enjoys it? Because people do. Some people really like both. They like to initiate and they like someone to initiate and be more receptive, right? So some people like both, just like people could like to be a top or a bottom, it's called, right?

• 39:22Speaker 00

  Take more power, be more aggressive, let's say, or be more receptive or surrendering. The same with initiation. Some people like both roles and like to share it with a partner. Other people really like being the initiator. They just really enjoy it. And others really like being the one who is pursued. It can break down by gender because certainly our gender scripts talk about narratives are very much, right? The man pursues the woman, you know, it's a very old one, the caveman, hits her over the head, drags her to the cave. Although that, a lot of younger folks I'd work with and people who are more gender fluid, non-binary, say that's old, those are old scripts. And feminists have said that, you know, in the feminist movement was like they wanted more sexual agency. They want more, they want to be able to call their shots.

• 40:07Speaker 00

  And if they're with men, they'd like their men to be able to submit or surrender. And to be able to play with power in a way. And for them to feel it, some women love strapping it on and doing their men anally if they would let them. You know, there could be all these different kinds of ways to play with power. And to, and I think initiation is, there's power in both positions, though. I don't think just the person who initiates really has more power. Some people might argue it's actually the person who's seducing the other or plays the other part that has power. But there are gendered scripts. And some people buy into those unconsciously. And it doesn't work for them. And one of the secrets they may share with me might be, this isn't working for me.

• 40:51Speaker 00

  Some men, let's say, might say to me alone, heterosexual men. I don't like being the initiator all the time, but I feel like my wife or my girlfriend would think I'm less of a man. Or he, she might not be as attracted to me if I don't always initiate. But personally, I would be happier. That might be a big secret he has to tell me individually that hopefully I could bring into the couple therapy and talk about. And then maybe that woman actually wouldn't mind sharing it too, but she felt he's not, there's so many secrets that couples could be burdened with and they don't share it with each other and they can be under false kind of assumptions that the partner really needs to maintain a certain type of gender script that actually they can be more fluid about.

• 41:36Speaker 02

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• 42:08Speaker 03

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• 42:31Shane Parrish?

  One of the gender scripts I've heard about, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, is that men often don't like to talk about their feelings with their partner. Why is that?

• 42:41Speaker 00

  Well, I think

• 42:42Shane Parrish?

  Well, is it true? And then why is it?

• 42:44Speaker 00

  I think it really is variable. I think that is another one of those gender scripts that, you know, all stereotypes usually have a little bit of truth in them. Men certainly aren't raised, I don't think, even now, unfortunately, I don't think men are raised to feel like you can really be a man and be masculine and manly and be sensitive and vulnerable and share your feelings, you know? And some women put that burden on men. It's not always men putting that burden on men, like the men have to go and they have to be at the bar and, you know, say how many people did they have sex with this week? Some men have to do that to each other. They one-up one, each other. But some women actually make it hard for men to be more vulnerable. So I do think there's some gender, and there's some gender scripts or assumptions that women

• 43:27Speaker 00

  are emotional messes and, you know, can't contain themselves and aren't tough, right? I'm old enough to remember the feminist movement making a big change in that department that freed women to be able to be more assertive and be able to, you know... Women can lead, be a CEO of a, of a company. We don't have to worry that she can't handle it. She can be a mother and be a leader. But we see even now, even more contemporary society, we still are burdened with, why, we haven't had a female president in this country yet, really? You know, and I think partly that is gender scripting about women and being able to be leaders. And how many men can really express their vulnerabilities? I think there's still some men that feel like they would be harmed by being that sensitive.

• 44:13Speaker 00

  So it does play out, but I think that, that people have pushed against it. I think the feminist movement has helped. I think, also, I think the trans movement's really helped. Because that's sort of throwing gender up in the air and saying, what, you know, what's gender anyway? Isn't that socially constructed in many ways?

• 44:32Shane Parrish?

  I was just thinking about asking you that. What is gender? If it's not biological?

• 44:37Speaker 00

  Well, you know, scientifically, we would say there's, well, I don't know if we'd use the term gender technically. Some people use the word sex for what one is, whatever secondary sexual or genetic makeups we are. I don't know if you know Anne Fausto Sterling's work from Brown University, she's retired now, but she, she made an argument that there's more than two genders genetically, I mean scientifically. And if you look in the animal kingdom, you know, some animals actually shift gender, some fish, you know, et cetera. So what is gender? Gender, though, as opposed to sex, anatomical, or what you're born with, or what some trans activists would say is what we're assigned at birth, is that gender socially constructed?

• 45:20Speaker 00

  And so that part of the argument is, you know, what are we, what are we soon to have to be? Once we're born, you know, that's one of the first identifiers. Boy or girl? It's a boy, it's a girl, right? It's a very central organizing variable, gender, in our culture. But it's being deconstructed.

• 45:38Shane Parrish?

  And then we treat people differently based on their gender, right?

• 45:41Speaker 00

  That's right. Parents begin to treat the kids differently right away, and kids, it's, it's fascinating just to watch children, even in the most gender open places, they, they get gender very early on. Like, some boys would say they'd never wear a pink shirt. You know, it's like, what's wrong with pink? You know?

• 45:59Shane Parrish?

  But isn't that, isn't that funny? Because I think it was like, up until nineteen twenty, I mean, pink used to be for boys. And then it switched somehow. I don't quite know how it switched.

• 46:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, the blue and the pink, beyond blue and pink, and. Jean Malpass, one of my, my good friends, actually, who leads the gender, I, um, project at Akrami Family Institute.

• 46:19Shane Parrish?

  Mm-hmm.

• 46:20Speaker 00

  I talks a lot about beyond the gen- uh, beyond the blue and the pink, because, uh, there's so many people who have given the opportunity to be open-minded and, and to know that there's nothing wrong with it, would live much more on the continuum as it relates to gender. Whether it's gender expression, or whether it's, uh, you know, truly how they would identify if they had a choice. And more people are. I think the changes with tr- the trans, uh, movement is, is educating people that there are more than two ways to, to experience gender.

• 46:49Shane Parrish?

  I want to come back to narratives a little bit.

• 46:51Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 46:52Shane Parrish?

  Because we hit on a couple of things, one of which was narratives age off, as in they get replaced. Maybe the fit, uh, the male initiating sex is aging off, because you're saying younger couples don't necessarily experience that in the same way.

• 47:06Speaker 00

  Right.

• 47:07Shane Parrish?

  An older person might have a harder time changing that narrative.

• 47:10Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 47:11Shane Parrish?

  So that, that might age off.

• 47:12Speaker 00

  Right.

• 47:13Shane Parrish?

  But a lot of the people that come to see you for couples therapy have a narrative about the relationship they need to change.

• 47:17Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 47:18Shane Parrish?

  Is it a matter of changing perspective? Is it a matter of replacing the narrative? Like, how do you, how do you think about that?

• 47:24Speaker 00

  It depends on the narrative. Some narratives, but when I, when I, I think about transforming narratives, um, for some people, it means dropping one. Many times, it could mean replacing one. Like, even with the idea of, let's say, without sexual desire, we're a broken couple. The narratives, we're a broken couple, one or both of us don't feel desire, so we can't have sex. Well, if they begin to be even educated that there are these other models way beyond these older models that don't include desire as a, a starting point for sex, that narrative can begin to be dropped and replaced. So there's some couples who leave therapy with me that even can joke about it. They could say, "Well, what narrative are we gonna do this week, honey? Are we doing Masters and Johnson?

• 48:09Speaker 00

  Are we doing Helen Singer-Caplan? Are we doing Joanne Luen? Are we doing Rosemary Bassell?" You know, and they can joke about it and be fluid about it.

• 48:16Shane Parrish?

  Do each one once a week.

• 48:17Speaker 00

  That's right. Maybe we'll have sex four times a month, each by each model, you know? But, uh, truly, to give people, uh, alternative narratives.

• 48:26Speaker 00

  That actually can de-pathologize them, I think is a real gift to narrative, a narrative approach.

• 48:34Shane Parrish?

  Is it in couple's therapy, outside of sex, maybe, coming back to that a little bit, is it a matter of saying, you're seeing this through one lens, here's a better lens, and people instantly recognize that?

• 48:45Speaker 00

  It depends, because some of the things, like, let's say, we have a communication problem as a couple, and then I say, tell me what you mean by communication problem, and give me each of your versions, because they could be different. And let's say they say, well, what really they may mean by communication problem is, you like, you like Chinese food and I like hamburgers, so see, we're not compatible. We shouldn't be together. So sometimes what they mean is, we have a communication problem because he's too different from me, and we just can't make it work. And then, because differences are bad, and differences mean we're not compatible. So let's say an alternative narrative is, actually, differences are to be expected, they're not bad, and actually, even differences could be complementary. They don't have to be not compatible.

• 49:30Speaker 00

  You start to unpack how they feel certain differences are, mean that we really don't, we shouldn't be together, and that perhaps it means that you, we need to normalize differences, and maybe learn some skills, and how do you manage differences, right? And they might then change a narrative, that we're not so not compatible. We don't have to break up, or we shouldn't have gotten, you know, together in the first place. So, and sometimes that will happen fairly rapidly, almost like a cognitive process, because part of offering alternative narratives is a cognitive process, but then other times, people are very wedded to certain narratives that goes way back. And it can be grounded into family dynamics, it could be grounded into a...

• 50:17Speaker 00

  Kind of more racial or gender or class or, you know, sexual orientation narratives. So, um, so often I will find that as I begin to do narrative therapy very early on by starting to deconstruct how they're saying a problem exists and the stories and so forth. Some things will shift fairly rapidly, but some will be quite resistant. And those are the ones that then are usually more deep seated and might have trauma connected to it, might have other kinds of relational experiences or wounds from childhood that they're not even conscious are connected to that narrative or that belief. So that's where you start to unpack the deeper.

• 50:54Shane Parrish?

  Or the narrative is constructed in a way that like, we're not compatible, we shouldn't be together, but the real issue is like, I don't want to be with you, I just don't want to tell you that.

• 51:03Speaker 00

  That's right. Or I don't want to be with you, I don't want to be with you, but I'm more afraid of being alone than being with someone I'm unhappy with. And that's interesting that sometimes.

• 51:12Shane Parrish?

  Too good to leave, too bad to stay.

• 51:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, whatever that book is, that's exactly. Some people are terrified of being single. Um, they're, they're really, either they have such low self-esteem, they feel like there's no way they could find anyone else. Um, or they, they feel like, well, it depends when they're breaking up, but some older folks I'm working with really might not be able to find partners.

• 51:33Shane Parrish?

  How would you work with somebody in individual session if that sort of, um, was what was happening?

• 51:41Speaker 00

  If they're more afraid of, they're staying with the person because they are.

• 51:44Shane Parrish?

  I mean, they're telling their partner one thing, uh, which is like, here's the problem in our relationship from my point of view.

• 51:49Speaker 00

  Right.

• 51:50Shane Parrish?

  Their partner may be trying to understand that or may see like other problems in the relationship, but they're not actually surfacing what's really going on in their mind and until they do.

• 52:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, and there are two levels to that. Sometimes some people really don't even really let themselves know it. So sometimes, let's say that fear of, I'm really with him or her because I really would rather not be alone, they don't even know yet. And it unpacks over time as we do more layered work and as we're really taking the content of each thing they're unhappy about, we try and make it better. And sometimes you could see each thing gets better, but a half of the couple might not still be committed, more committed and more happy. That can give you a clue that there could be still something about this person really doesn't want to be here. Um, but, uh, but they might not have known it. So for some people, they really didn't know that.

• 52:41Speaker 00

  Um, and they don't know it until they really do the work and then they really realize this, this just isn't enough. It's not gonna work. Um, uh, you know, almost like the horse is already out of the barn. Other people do know it, but they can't say it, um, either because they can't devastate the partner or they, they are too frightened for themselves. And you know, I don't minimize that. Like for some people, then a lot of their work needs to be to understand what's so awful about being alone. Uh, and for some people, for whom they really will stay in such an unhappy relationship, um, because the alternative is so much worse, they need to do that. That's sometimes if I'm the couple therapist, I would probably refer them to individual therapy because it might be a much deeper issue that I can't do as the couple therapist.

• 53:25Speaker 00

  But I, I don't think it's my job necessarily to force that person to have to say that to a partner when they're still in the process of not even knowing why they're so terrified to be alone. Because maybe if they work on that issue individually, they may not, they may be able to come back and wanna recommit to the relationship. You never know how an issue like that, a reason, might unpack differently once a person does more deep work individually.

• 53:50Shane Parrish?

  I wanna walk through two things that we, we just hit on there. One of which is, um, when a couple decides that it's over, or one partner, I guess, has ultimately decided it's over.

• 54:00Speaker 00

  Okay. And the other partner didn't?

• 54:02Shane Parrish?

  Well, I mean, um, the relationship has ended. Is there, wa- walk me through the ways to end a relationship. Um, there must be pros and cons, better ways to do that than... Uh, how do you do that in a way that, um, is respectful and sort of honest with the other person? And sets yourself up for the best possible future, especially if you have kids, you have to deal with them.

• 54:24Speaker 00

  That's always a bigger...

• 54:25Shane Parrish?

  And then I wanna take the opposite approach. And I wanna say, okay, well, we've been in therapy hypothetically for two and a half years and, uh, we wanna reconnect. We've decided that we're gonna do this and we've worked through some of these issues. It doesn't happen, um, um, imagining it doesn't happen overnight.

• 54:43Speaker 00

  Right.

• 54:43Shane Parrish?

  How do you, what is that first step and what is the second step? And how does that look like for building that relationship back to maybe where it was when you got married?

• 54:50Speaker 00

  Many times even therapists can, a couple therapist can feel like the breakup is a failure. And I think that's a narrative that's really one to be dealt with as people are trying to decide or one person wants to leave that relationship, they think it's over. That um, some people won't say that it's over because they don't wanna feel the failure of it.

• 55:08Shane Parrish?

  Yeah, I think a lot of people, um, you know, my friends and other people have that narrative wrapped in their head, which is divorce means failure, and I've never failed at anything.

• 55:17Speaker 00

  That's right, that's right, and they feel shame about it.

• 55:20Shane Parrish?

  Yeah.

• 55:20Speaker 00

  And they even play in their whole, they're all their mind, everybody we have to tell and they have to come out about it. And then if there are kids involved, it's even worse, you know, especially if it's little kids, you know.

• 55:28Shane Parrish?

  When I got divorced, that was the hardest thing for me to overcome was that this narrative that divorce means failure.

• 55:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, sometimes that's another narrative I try and help them transform. Especially in a relationship that really had real substance, you know, even though it wound up. Is that um, some people come together really for certain reasons, good reasons. And uh, they really grew together and they really produced whatever, and sometimes it could be the kids or it could be other things. And then sometimes the growth isn't gonna go anywhere anymore. And actually could be going in an opposite direction.

• 56:03Shane Parrish?

  Could be a really positive thing, right? You had these, uh, you know, thirty years together and they were amazing and you have really good memories, but now it's time to.

• 56:11Speaker 00

  And it's so moving, uh, I try and help people with that frame, to offer that frame. And for them to, if, if, if they can shift to a point of saying, you know what, I really can see why you were in my life. If I, even though we're getting divorced, I would still do it this way. That is an incredible, that would be like one of the best endings because, uh, you know, you could say whether this is a spiritual way of thinking about it or whatever, or soulmates, whatever, but there, you know, there are certain people come into your life, even friends, not just, you know, partners. But that who really are there, who really, through the ups and downs, are real teachers. And uh, and for some couples, they really can say that they, they were real teachers, but you know, the lessons need to be done.

• 56:54Speaker 00

  Either in it not together anymore. Uh, or and even part of the lesson can be to be able to separate well. And for many people, I think if they feel like, even if one person is really um initiating it more, which is always more painful, obviously, or if one person wants to leave and the other doesn't, that's really tough. But in whatever way, I can help them stay in a room enough to uh understand how calm and to be able, whatever was good, be able to still be part of the of the separation process, to bring that good that was there when they were both happy to the separation process. That's a gift they can give each other. And some people get there to be able to do it, even the person who could sit there.

• 57:36Speaker 00

  Sometimes a half of a couple might wanna see me a little after a divorce or the couple therapy ends. Especially the one that didn't wanna break up, because they wanna sit and help me understand even more of how do they go forward with this? And what could they learn from it? Because sometimes the person who leaves the relationship was more ready to give up the relationship than the person who gets the bad news, right? Um, so uh you know, not everybody comes to that end in the same way.

• 58:03Shane Parrish?

  Yeah, I often think, and incorrectly perhaps, but um there's a date the marriage ends, and then there's a date that you sort of separate, and those are not necessarily the same date.

• 58:15Speaker 00

  That's right. And even there's some people that are now moving on and they're still connected. All these years later, they've become, um, you know, sometimes in the gay community, they'll say that, that they never do break up. I mean, they break up, but then they're at the Thanksgiving table.

• 58:29Shane Parrish?

  Right.

• 58:30Speaker 00

  And sometimes I think that's true, especially with older gay folks for whom uh coming out meant they lost their family's origin. They were either cut off or whatever, so they created friendship family. So that if a partner is that important to you and then you break up, some people aren't gonna give up the friendship just because they're now not partners anymore. Um, and and more, some heterosexual couples are that way too. They just, as they're breaking up, because they really have to. Like, sex can be a breaking point. Like, if you wind up with one partner who still is quite sexual, it's they're just sexuality's important to them, with truly a partner who says, I could care less if I ever have sex again in my life, and there's nothing wrong with that too. Or they could be asexual, by the way. Asexuality doesn't get enough.

• 59:12Speaker 00

  You know, attention in our society, because I think some people don't even know they're asexual. And they get labeled sexually dysfunctional because they don't, you know, sex isn't a major variable for them, for attraction. They still want to be partnered, but just sex isn't it. Um, but anyway, you have the highly sexual person with the person who really, it's a very low valence, so they could care less. And the highly sexual person says, I love this person, but I don't know if I want to live the rest of my life non-sexual. Now, maybe they can go into other alternatives, like can you have an open relationship? Can you, you know, consensual non-monogamy, polyamory, you know, what's possible?

• 59:48Shane Parrish?

  Does, does that work in your experience, open relationships? I'm sure you've seen that a lot.

• 59:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, I do. I see it more and more now, actually, than I used to.

• 59:56Shane Parrish?

  Is that healthy? Does it cause anxiety? Is there security and safety issues? Like, how, how do you?

• 1:00:02Speaker 00

  Well, what I often tell people is, this isn't a moral question. It's like, it's, it's a high maintenance activity, if you're gonna do it well. Because imagine, uh, even like the way I think of it, right? If all sex is group sex, just with two people. Now, throw in a girlfriend or a boyfriend, or throw in like, you know, whatever someone is gonna be. You have your boyfriend and your husband at the Thanksgiving table. Now, you've got three sets of, you know, histories to cope with, or four, or five. So certainly, I think it's more complicated. There are more moving parts. I think it does at least consciously make people have to deal with jealousy much more upfront. They have to deal with envy more upfront, competition. These are tough feelings to have in general.

• 1:00:43Speaker 00

  Um, but that, I don't think that, um, either form of relationship is inherently more or less, uh, healthy. I do think some therapists believe that. They believe that people who are in open relationships or polyamorous arrangements are less mature. You know, I've heard some colleagues say, oh, that person just wants to have their cake and eat it too. Why can't they just live with the changes, you know, what you have to give up to be monogamous? And I don't see it that way. I see, I see it as actually more challenging, I think, to have an open relationship for all those reasons. You know, how are you gonna navigate that material? If you're gonna do it with integrity?

• 1:01:20Shane Parrish?

  And you need both partners, obviously, in on that, and...

• 1:01:23Speaker 00

  Well, what's really challenging sometimes is that in some couples, one person really wants, let's say, polyamory, but the other person doesn't. Well, that could be tricky. You know, if both people want the same thing, sometimes that could be a little easier. But one person may want the outside recreational sex or boyfriend or girlfriend in addition to the spouse and the other doesn't. That could be tricky. I mean, it's not not doable, but it takes a lot of consciousness, integrity, honesty, trust. And some people can pull that off. Some primary couples will say, this open relationship made me even more committed to my partner, even more trusting of my partner, even stronger. So it's not always an exit ramp. Some people are afraid it's an exit ramp.

• 1:02:07Speaker 00

  But I do a lot of assessment. If a couple comes to me saying they want an open relationship, I do so much assessment that by the time they're finished with it, they might say, who knows if we're even.

• 1:02:17Shane Parrish?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:02:18Speaker 00

  But, you know, I'll do histories, all those sexual histories before I do it and the family histories. I mean, I want them to be conscious if they're going to make the choice, right?

• 1:02:26Shane Parrish?

  I don't want to lose the thread. I want to come back to sort of, is there anything else that stands out in terms of separating in the best possible ways that strike you as good practices or and then reconnecting?

• 1:02:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, the good practices for, you know, the separating in the best way. We hope that eventually would they be able to stay in a room long enough, especially the person for whom, let's say, they don't want to break up, to be able to tolerate that level of hurt or rejection or whatever, to be able to say, what can I learn from this, including the pain of being left? That's pretty amazing. Some people can do that. I always think that everything in life is a learning experience, even our, probably that our most terrible experiences are our best learning experiences. So if a couple can stay in an office long enough, once the writing's on the wall that this isn't going to work, and get the most they can get out of it, including how does one separate from a bomb that was so meaningful? That's pretty good stuff.

• 1:03:26Speaker 00

  And some people can do it, some people can't. The minute there's the least bit of an indication, they're out of there. Like, people get up and run out of my office or say, that's it. I mean, and I've seen it all. Some people can't tolerate it. And you know, I don't cast judgment about that. It's just that, you know, people have different levels of capacity.

• 1:03:46Shane Parrish?

  It's like their narrative is shattering right in front of your eyes. That's terrible, yeah.

• 1:03:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, whether it's the failure narrative, or whether it's the rejection narrative, or whether it's the guilt narrative. Sometimes the person who is breaking up, they can't tolerate staying in the room because they feel too guilty about it.

• 1:04:00Shane Parrish?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:01Speaker 00

  Uh, so that's, but I try and create the biggest container I can. And sometimes I might even say, hey, I know this might feel too much now, but how about maybe we, you each meet with me individually next week? Right? Why don't we have two individual sessions? And come back then the next week and maybe you can come back in the office as a couple and talk more about how to break up. You know, so I try and figure out different ways to still make a big enough container for people to learn as much as they can and make for the best breakup. If kids are involved, then it's even more so, uh, really important if they're little kids. Because it's how are you gonna help the kids not feel guilty, not feel like it's their fault?

• 1:04:37Shane Parrish?

  In a way, though, couldn't that be positive? Because then you, you turn your attention on to the kids, like what's best for the kids and like it refocuses a lot of that.

• 1:04:44Speaker 00

  Some people can. In fact, that having a kid in the picture really can give them the strength to stay there and really tough out the really difficult conversation.

• 1:04:53Shane Parrish?

  All right, that's a lot of doom and gloom. Let's go to like reconnecting.

• 1:04:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, now we're reconnecting, yay. Yeah, well, but we, still, whatever the, um, crisis was, if there was a crisis that brought them to the brink of thinking they were gonna break up, let's say an affair could be a typical one, but anything else. Um, and then, uh, to slowly say what needs to be repaired. You know, and often I will tell couples, I give this notion of, um, from analytic work, you know, there's rupture and repair in almost any of the authentic relationship. Like, i- it's really important to develop your tolerance for disappointment. Both to be disappointed by your partner and to disappoint your partner. So many people have such a hard time allowing disappointment to be part of a really healthy, authentic relationship.

• 1:05:39Speaker 00

  So when I talk about authenticity, I said, if you're really authentic, you're gonna hurt each other. Not even intentionally, but unintentionally, even if it's because of your own wounds or your own unconscious conflicts you haven't dealt with.

• 1:05:49Shane Parrish?

  And it's about what you do after you hurt that person.

• 1:05:52Speaker 00

  Exactly. That matters. I always tell people the real strength is how do you recover from something, not the fact that you already had the fight or the or the rupture. But how do you recover? How fast you recover? How well? What are what are your skills to recover?

• 1:06:08Shane Parrish?

  What are the common recovery skills, if you will?

• 1:06:11Speaker 00

  Listening is a really, that helps. A lot of people can't listen very well, I notice, in general, in society, but in couples. You know, when a partner's starting to say things that that trigger us. Some people have to have the retort ready, so by the time they're, even if they don't interrupt, some people just interrupt and shut up their partner or talk over them or start yelling or fighting. But let's say they don't do that, in their minds, they could already be developing the retort. They're not even listening to what the partner said in the first place. So there's like a real, very common kind of couple dialogue that a couple therapist can do that speaker listener method, you've probably heard of it, but where you just force the couple to say, alright. You know, John has five minutes and Mike has to be quiet and let John speak, right?

• 1:06:55Speaker 00

  And you can't say anything, Mike. And then after John stops, you have to paraphrase back to John what he said. So so John knows you understand. And that to show empathy or to show understanding doesn't mean you're agreeing with what your partner said. You're only demonstrating that you heard him or her, that you listened to them. So that expressing like empathy or understanding doesn't mean I agree with you, because then you'll have your chance to say what your perspective is, your subjectivity is, which could be very different. And then the other partner gets to hear you out and not interrupt you and not be creating the retort, you know, the response. But instead to be listening. So listening's a big skill. And then, of course, speaking's a skill.

• 1:07:38Speaker 00

  How do you say your truth in the most constructive way? You know, sometimes we'll say, use I statements, don't say you. Once once a partner's gonna say you, I get prepared, because it's like, they're probably not gonna be saying something good.

• 1:07:52Shane Parrish?

  You do this.

• 1:07:53Speaker 00

  Yes, you're this, you're that, you do this, you don't do that, instead of I need. So sometimes I'll say, you know, instead of making a comment. How about your partner, how about saying what a need that you're having right now? So let's switch to the comment about your partner. You never listened to me to the need. You know what, I really need more attention from you when you come home from work. I really need you to hear how my day was. It's so different to saying I need as opposed to you are or you're not.

• 1:08:21Shane Parrish?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:22Speaker 00

  So I kinda help them. It's almost like you're at the UN, you know, you're trying to teach translation skills. So it's like, could you just share it this way as opposed to that way? And you'd be surprised how changing from a you to an I can make a big difference. So listening, uh, how you say things, how to fight well, John Gottman, a great couple therapist talks about fighting fair.

• 1:08:43Shane Parrish?

  You know. Or just fighting fair.

• 1:08:44Speaker 00

  Well, fighting unfair, we know what that can be, right? You know, like, uh, some of it would be the you, you know, the attack. You know, and um, you know, being using contempt. Uh, you know, to be aware of the things that people, sarcasm, there are many things you can say in a fight. That really isn't fair, you know, it's really.

• 1:09:01Shane Parrish?

  Positive aggressive.

• 1:09:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's meant to harm. You know, there's a difference between expressing anger. When you do X, I feel so angry because it's different than you're so selfish.

• 1:09:13Shane Parrish?

  Right.

• 1:09:14Speaker 00

  You know, you're, you're, you know, you're so into your, your own thing. You don't care about me, you know, making big statements about another person. So it really breaks down anger to for it to be um, much clearer about what you need. Cause almost behind every attack is behind anger is usually hurt. And by again, underneath most attacks is usually an unmet need. And if you can help people shift from those more aggressive ways of being that are harmful. Um, to being able to be more vulnerable. Vulnerability is a tough one to get people into, but it, it really, people can be vulnerable and really speak from the heart, the truth. They can get to a lot of um, a way to work out a conflict.

• 1:09:59Speaker 00

  And they could even if they're very different underneath all with all that vulnerability, they could find, I often say, how about just like think of the Venn diagram. There you are, there you are, let's find the overlap in the Venn diagram. All we need is a little space in here to start feeling like, is it possible? But when you do enough couple therapy, if the Venn diagram stays with the two big circles and there isn't even like a little inch that's overlapping, that's when sometimes it means, really? Is that mean that this we can't find a little space for the Venn diagram to stay together? Okay, let's talk about it, why not? Why can't we find the little overlap? What's preventing the overlap?

• 1:10:36Shane Parrish?

  What are the things that couples can do proactively? Perhaps they don't feel like they need therapy and their relationship is going well, but they don't want to be complacent about that. What are the things that they can do that would?

• 1:10:51Speaker 00

  I'm really glad you say they're not complacent because I find sometimes when I do histories to find out what went wrong, you know, like a lot of times it's important to ask, well, you had sex so well for the first five years, what happened, right? Or, or you used to really enjoy each other and have fun, what happened? You know, and I'm always interested, when did it stop happening? When did the fun stop? Or why do you think the fun stopped? So, maintenance, many people take relationships for granted, I think. Almost like we do with everything, we take our health for granted, there are a lot of things we could take for granted, but I, I talk to, especially when kids come into the picture. Some people become so child focused that they lose that there's a, there's another thing that needs to be nurtured. I often say to, to couples with kids, the relationship's another child.

• 1:11:35Speaker 00

  You don't have one child, you have two. It's called your child named, you know, Mary. And then you have a relation, a marital relationship to still nurture. And people don't get that a relationship has to be nurtured. You have to water it like a plant. It isn't just to be taken for granted. And I think too many people just think, oh, we're in love now, we were in love, we got married, we had kids, or we're committed. What, you know, he should know why, so many people say, she should know why I love her. I said, "No, how about telling her you love her?" People never are too old to feel, you know, like, "I like to hear, 'I still look good,' or, 'I love you,' or, 'I appreciate you.'"

• 1:12:14Shane Parrish?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:14Speaker 00

  You know, so sometimes I'll tell couples, "You get into bed before you pass out, how about just one word of gratitude? I'll just say, 'I'm so happy you're still in my life.' 'I love your sense of humor, you know, 'you really make me laugh when I feel so bad,' when I felt bad,' one word, and then you could pass out." Even if you have five kids, you know, it's like, how do you nurture that relationship? The 80-year-olds who are still doing well, they never forgot to be grateful and appreciative of their relationship, and that's very important. And people don't often think that they need to nurture it. Just falling in love is not the end of the story, it's the beginning of a story. It's the beginning of a process, it's not the end. And too many people, I think, will walk down the aisle

• 1:12:59Speaker 00

  or moving together, or whatever commitment means to them, and they think, "Oh, I did it now. Now I have my partner for life." Phew, that one's done, check it off the list. And no, actually, now the fun begins. This is when you really need to, you know, some people take care of their cars more than their relationships, you know, they're buffing it up and they're, they bring it in for, you know, like a tune-up, and hardly anyone... So, dates are important, date nights, whether they're sex date nights or just date-date nights, or if you don't have money, it doesn't mean you have to go out, there's a lot of ways to have fun at home. But to really nurture the relationship is really important.

• 1:13:37Shane Parrish?

  I think that's a great place to end this. Thank you so much.

• 1:13:39Speaker 00

  Okay, it was fun, thanks.

• 1:13:48Shane Parrish?

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