#20 Marc Garneau: The Future of Transportation

Marc Garneau is a Canadian politician, Engineer, and the Minister of Transport. This interview was recorded live in front of an audience in Montreal. As a bilingual country, you'll hear bits of French from the audience questions here and there but the interview is predominately in English. In this interview, we discuss the future of transportation (including self-driving cars), infrastructure investments, space, what it means to be a liberal in 2017, how we — as citizens — can judge an elected politician, how he ensures he's getting accurate information in a political system and so much more. Enjoy this amazing conversation. Go Premium: Members get early access, ad-free episodes, hand-edited transcripts, searchable transcripts, member-only episodes, and more. Sign up at: https://fs.blog/membership/ Every Sunday our newsletter shares timeless insights and ideas that you can use at work and home. Add it to your inbox: https://fs.blog/newsletter/ Follow Shane on Twitter at: https://twitter.com/ShaneAParrish Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:08Shane Parrish?

  Hey, it's Shane Parrish and welcome to a new episode of The Knowledge Project, where we deconstruct actionable strategies that you can use to make better decisions, learn new things, and live a better life. This time around, we have the Honorable Mark Garneau, who is the Minister of Transport for the Canadian Government. Mark's been an elected Member of Parliament since 2008 and previously served as the critic for industry, science, and technology, as well as foreign affairs. He's been the House Leader in the House of Commons, and he was also the first Canadian to fly in space. Now, how cool is that? Bit of a brief heads up, this interview was recorded live in Montreal, Canada. The audio is going to be a little bit different than what you're used to, and there's bits of French here and there, but don't worry.

• 0:51Shane Parrish?

  Mark brings an engineer's mindset to government decisions, and I really enjoyed the conversation, and I think you will too. Without further ado, here's Mark.

• 1:12Shane Parrish?

  Mark, I'm so excited to have the pleasure of interviewing you tonight. You've had such an esteemed public service career. It's a rare honour to be here with you today, so thank you.

• 1:24Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:25Shane Parrish?

  I want to start with something incredibly simple, but something that most of us don't know, which is, how do you spend your day?

• 1:35Speaker 01

  I'm pretty busy these days as Transport Minister, but I have to say that I've always had the pleasure of doing a number of jobs where I have truly enjoyed what I was doing. In a very kind introduction, they mentioned that I was an astronaut and that I was now a politician, but before all of that, I was in the Navy. The Navy was my first love, in fact, and when I was 12 years old, I had the chance to cross the ocean in an ocean liner. In fact, it left here. From Montreal, it was called the Empress of Britain. And it went over to Liverpool in England. And I was 12 years old, and I fell in love with the ocean.

• 2:20Speaker 01

  And I joined the Navy. So, yes, I have, my days are full.

• 2:28Speaker 01

  They have all been, I think, in service of my country. And that has given me a great deal of satisfaction. Transport now is my main preoccupation. And that's a job that everybody here, I'm sure, has an opinion on. Whether they're talking about airplanes, whether they're talking about railways, cars, trucks. Everybody has strong opinions, in fact, about transport. It's a very big file. It's an important file for a big country like Canada. And that keeps me very busy from morning to night. But I have to say again, I truly enjoy doing it. It's a, it's a, it's a job that, to me, I'm passionate about. And I've been lucky to be passionate about everything I've done in my life.

• 3:12Shane Parrish?

  What attracted you to the Navy specifically? Why was that your passion?

• 3:17Speaker 01

  Well, I was out on the ocean, crossing on my way to, to England. My father had been posted there. And the immensity of the ocean, which was something that I, I had never seen, and which I saw as we crossed. We had some bad weather, so I saw an ocean that was, that was very worked up and tempestuous, and it was rough. I saw beautiful calm waters with beautiful sunsets. And that just sort of grabbed me. And I said, this is what I want to do.

• 3:58Speaker 01

  I never really wanted to do a job where I would be at a desk all day long. I wanted there to be, yes, that component, which is important, but also the physical component. I wanted to be doing other things as well as part of my job. Things that would perhaps challenge me physically. And the Navy seems to be that kind of a profession.

• 4:21Shane Parrish?

  Was the immensity of space what pulled you to that as well? Or is that something different?

• 4:26Speaker 01

  It's very similar in many, many ways. It is a, it's a, it's a vast frontier. It is one where you rely on your fellow crew members.

• 4:38Speaker 01

  For your survival. When you're in a ship, when you're out there, it's just you. And although we have modern technology today, things can sometimes go wrong. And you are depending on the rest of the crew in a hostile environment. Sometimes hostile environment, and it's very similar to what you do in space. In fact, I think it's, we call spacecraft spaceships. And it is very much that kind of an experience of travel, of going on to the new frontier. And the reason that I decided that I wanted to become an astronaut was because I like adventure.

• 5:19Speaker 01

  The Navy had given me a sense of adventure. I thought this would be a new adventure.

• 5:24Shane Parrish?

  Did you realize the enormity of that role for Canadians in terms of pulling us into excitement about science and technology at the time? Or is that something you came to recognize and appreciate after?

• 5:37Speaker 01

  I think I came to recognize it afterwards. It's not something that dawned on me right away. I was certainly aware of the fact that this was a new area for Canada to be involved with. We had a space program. Most Canadians did not know very much about it. It involved satellites. And in fact, it's quite a distinguished, Canada was the third country in space, which a lot of people don't know. But bringing a human dimension to it with astronauts. And the reason we were invited to become astronauts and to fly on the Space Shuttle is because we had designed the robotic arm that is on the Space Shuttle. And in fact, part of it was designed here in Montreal.

• 6:19Speaker 01

  And the United States NASA wanted to thank us. And they said, "Look, you did such a great job with the design of the Canada arm. It works very, very well. We'd like to fly a couple of Canadians." And so the government of Canada said, "Sounds like a good idea." And they put an ad in the paper, and lots of people have flied. I saw it, and I said to myself, "There's no way I'm going to pass up this opportunity to apply. I'm sure I won't be chosen, but I don't want to kick myself later and say I should have tried." And so I sent in my name, and my life changed.

• 6:55Shane Parrish?

  What was the drive that inspired you to run for office?

• 7:00Speaker 01

  Well, that's another matter. Running for office is, I used to say, when I was an astronaut, people liked me. But when you enter the political arena, it's a totally different arena, and people tell you what they think. I happen to be a liberal, and not everybody's a liberal, and some people feel, and they're quite right, they're entitled to tell you that they don't agree with you. They don't agree with your party, they don't agree with you on your views, and that is part of politics. And so, you have to, you have to make a serious decision. Because the big change in my life, when I went from being a naval officer, I was an

• 7:40Speaker 01

  engineer, to becoming an astronaut, the big change is that I went from being a private person to being a public person. So I knew then that when I walked down the street to go to, I don't know, to Canadian Tire to buy some tools, that people might recognize me, that they might want to talk to me. So, you know, on a Saturday morning, when previously nobody would have known who I was or cared. So suddenly I realized that there was a big change in my life, because I was now a public person. And, you know, I'm no different since I became an astronaut from before I became an astronaut. I still slip on the ice, just like everybody does once in a while.

• 8:24Speaker 01

  People say, "Hey, you're an astronaut, you'll fall on the ice." Well, yes, I do. And, so you have to get used to being a public person, but the big difference between becoming a politician from being an astronaut is, yes, you're public in both, but in one case, people generally like you as an astronaut, because you are in a profession that is of interest to people, it's not controversial. But when you go into politics, you have to accept the fact that you are going to do something where not everybody's going to agree with everything you do. And so that's a big decision. And the reason that I did go into politics was because I'm an engineer by background, there are not very many technical people in the House of Commons of our country, and

• 9:06Speaker 01

  I thought I could bring a dimension that is perhaps missing. And I'm delighted that I made that decision. First time I ran, I lost, which is, it's not easy to lose, but I stuck with it, and now I've been at it for eight years.

• 9:22Speaker 02

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• 9:24Speaker 03

  It's me, the

• 9:25Speaker 02

  Priceline Negotiator.

• 9:27Speaker 03

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• 9:29Speaker 02

  What about a third time?

• 9:30Speaker 03

  Stop it. This is about vacation inflation and how Priceline negotiates amazing deals on hotels, flights, and rental cars.

• 9:37Speaker 02

  Seems like they just started.

• 9:39Speaker 03

  Yeah, but I didn't mention that you can save up to 60% off hotels in the Priceline app.

• 9:43Speaker 02

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• 9:45Speaker 03

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• 9:47Speaker 02

  Priceline.

• 9:48Speaker 03

  Please stop.

• 9:49Speaker 02

  Priceline.

• 9:50Speaker 03

  Touche.

• 9:50Speaker 02

  Priceline.

• 9:51Speaker 03

  Priceline.

• 9:53Speaker 04

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• 10:16Shane Parrish?

  I want to go into a little bit more about your experience as an MP, but first, what does it mean to be liberal in 2017? And I want to contextualize that with, it seems to me that the demographic in Canada, anecdotally, from my point of view, is changing. Most people tend to be purple, I would say, which is a mixture of kind of red and blue. They might be socially liberal and fiscally conservative. And just with that backdrop, can you speak to me about what it means to be a liberal in 2017?

• 10:48Speaker 01

  Yes, and liberals, it's, we're not narrowly defined. There is quite a spectrum. You said purple. There are blue liberals. In other words, they are, if you like, more traditional and conservative fiscally. But all liberals do have that social side to them. So they're either going to be a little bit of left of center, or in the middle, or a little bit right of center. So we have always been a party that oscillates about the center. I think more importantly today, and I think our prime minister has articulated it, being a liberal here in Canada is wanting to be open on the world at a time when we see

• 11:33Speaker 01

  Protectionism coming in. We've seen some evidence of that in the world where people talk about terms like populism and nativism coming into the politics of governments in certain countries. We in Canada want to remain open to the world as far as trade is concerned, as far as bringing immigrants into our country. So, no change from that point of view at a time when many other countries are changing. So, I think that, to me, more than anything, means being a liberal.

• 12:09Shane Parrish?

  Can we dive into your experience? When you first became an MP, you were a critic, and now you're a minister. So, you've seen both sides of this. Can you walk us through some of the nuances and differences that we wouldn't see from the outside between running and operating government in the sense versus critiquing?

• 12:28Speaker 01

  Both have an important role. I was on the opposition, in the opposition, for seven years. I had lots of time to learn how to be in the opposition. And, of course, the opposition is trying to hold the government, their feet to the fire, hold them to the promises that they made, and to make sure that they are doing what is right for Canada. Of course, opposition parties, whether during the time that I was in opposition, it was a conservative government. So, we in opposition were either liberals or NDP or Green or Bloc.

• 13:08Speaker 01

  And we each tried to hold the government accountable so that they would, hopefully, do things in accordance with the values of our party. But ultimately, it is only when you are in government that you get to make the decisions. And the decisions, now I know that because I've been a minister for a year in the government of Canada, and I've had to make decisions. I proposed bills in Parliament that have an influence... and an effect on you and others and that is what comes with being in the government.

• 13:49Speaker 01

  You are accountable for what you do in a way that you are not when you're in opposition. So we make decisions and we must live with the consequences and if Canadians decide three years from now that we didn't do a good job, they have the right to elect somebody else. So that's the big difference between being in opposition and being in government. In government, you actually make the decisions that shape, for better, for worse, the future of our country. And I'm delighted after seven years in opposition where I think I learned my craft because you can't walk into the House of Commons on day one and know how to be an MP. It does take a while to learn how to be one, but now I have to say after seven years,

• 14:33Speaker 01

  it's a pleasure to be in government.

• 14:36Shane Parrish?

  Do you think your role as a critic makes you a better minister?

• 14:39Speaker 01

  I think it does. I would say that I was critic for science and technology, for industry, foreign affairs at one time, short time, natural resources. So I had to learn about those things in order to be able to ask intelligent questions, make intelligent speeches and find whether or not there was reason to criticize the government. So yes, it is a valuable experience being a critic and because you are the person who is officially supposed to take care of a particular file.

• 15:22Speaker 01

  And so, yes, I've enjoyed being critic. Transport, I was never the critic for. That's something I had to basically learn from scratch, but you know, I have to say, I love the job of being Transport Minister. It suits me perfectly.

• 15:39Shane Parrish?

  Ministers have an incredibly difficult job. How do you define success for yourself in that particular role? Not in the context of the broader government, but day to day, how do you know that you're doing exceptional versus kind of just doing good?

• 15:55Speaker 01

  I think you get a sense of it from everything that's around you. The media, of course, in addition to the opposition, will criticize you if they think that you're doing a bad job. The bad job may be legislation that you're bringing forward or how you handle a particular event. And every single day of the week, there will be a particular issue that will come up. I mean, that's just the nature of government. There are a huge number of issues related to transport. And you get a sense out there in the public whether people are with you and think that you're doing a reasonable job. And that doesn't mean everybody's going to agree with you.

• 16:38Speaker 01

  But if most people feel that you're doing your job, you get a sense of whether they believe that you're a competent minister. It's just hard to define, but it is something that you get a sense of because you're going to read things where people will criticize you or tell you to your face. And you're going to read things where people tell you that you've made the right decision. And you've got to interpret all of that. And you've got to be honest with yourself. You can't just choose to believe the good stuff. You've got to also remember that you've got to take everybody's opinion into account. But you get a sense of whether you're doing it. And of course, ultimately, when elections come around,

• 17:22Speaker 01

  you find out in a very brutal way whether people support you or not.

• 17:25Shane Parrish?

  How are we supposed to judge as citizens the role of a minister?

• 17:30Speaker 01

  Well, based on what we do, for example, we, let me give you an example. I have come out recently with a, what's called a vision for transport for the next fifteen years, it's called Transportation 2013. And in there, I say, we're going to do the following things as we move into the future. And there are a whole bunch of elements. To give you an example, I've said that we will come up with what people often call a bill of rights for air travelers. We call it a rights regime, and this is a regime by which if you are kicked off a flight

• 18:13Speaker 01

  because they've overbooked, and, has it happened to any of you? Yes, I think a few of you, including myself. Or you've lost- Not while you're a minister, though, right? Not yet. Or, or your baggage has been lost, or damaged, or you've sat on the tarmac for four hours and then the plane flight has been canceled. We all have, I think if we travel, experienced frustrations. And we said, we're going to put in place a set of measures, a uniform, that will apply to all airlines, that will be, in a sense, a clear indication to the airlines that if

• 18:55Speaker 01

  you do not fulfill certain obligations to the passengers to whom you sold tickets, there will be consequences. So, that's something. Now, people may argue with the details of what eventually comes out, we have to put this together. Some people may like it, some people may not like it. I gave you an example where I think most people would like it, but there are other things that can be sometimes more controversial. So, that's just one example, and there's a host of them. And so, you'll get positive feedback from one person on one thing, but they'll really not like something else. Not everybody's going to agree with you on everything you do, and that's, that's part of the job.

• 19:38Shane Parrish?

  Speaking of that, you're surrounded by people who have different incentives. And some of those incentives don't align with you. And those people are passing you information that you need to make decisions on. How do you go about ascertaining the validity of the information you're making the decisions on and testing it? It's been through so many filters and so many people with so many different political agendas.

• 20:05Speaker 01

  And that's a very challenging thing. I pride myself, as an engineer, that's my education, that's my background, in being very rigorous in doing my research. Because if I'm gonna get out in front of a bunch of people and say, "This is what happened," or "Based on my knowledge, this is what we're going to do," and I'm wrong, it's very embarrassing and it's something that I really don't want happening. So, to me, there is a very rigorous process when you get all these inputs from the people

• 20:48Speaker 01

  that you work with. There's a very rigorous process of making sure that the information that you have received is correct and that you're comfortable with that information. So, I'm a person who is driven by logic. A lot of people call me Mr. Spock sometimes because I really do believe that a lot of decisions in the field of transport need to be based on rigorous scientific evidence, logic, and that's how I approach it. And I think that helps me. I think my whole background in engineering, as you know, if there are any engineers here,

• 21:28Speaker 01

  once you become a professional engineer, you have a seal and you certify your work. And if you're wrong, it can have serious consequences. If you build bridges or houses or electrical circuits and you don't do it properly, there are serious consequences. So, it's an ethical thing in terms of doing your homework properly, and I try to bring that to politics.

• 21:51Shane Parrish?

  Do you think that that should apply to politics as well? Do you think that there should be not only consequences whereby you can lose your job, but if you're an engineer and you sign up on something, there's liability as well? Do you think that that transfers over?

• 22:06Speaker 01

  Are you a politician who's negligent? Certainly, as an engineer, if you certify something and there's a flaw in it, it can lead to some very serious consequences. As a politician, typically, your judgment comes at election time. Or it can come within the cycle of a government. For example, if my prime minister thinks that I'm not doing a good job, he can remove me from that and he can send me to the back benches. Or if it's a really serious thing, and here we're getting into things that are in ethical

• 22:49Speaker 01

  issues, you can even, there is a process by which you can be removed from what we call the caucus, which is you're removed from the Liberal caucus. You can no longer be a Liberal MP, you become an independent. So there are different measures of accountability that you're subjected to.

• 23:08Shane Parrish?

  Can we geek out for a second?

• 23:10Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 23:11Shane Parrish?

  I want to talk about self-driving cars.

• 23:13Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 23:14Shane Parrish?

  Which is top of mind for everybody. How do you see this playing out over the next ten or up to 2030, in line with your vision?

• 23:21Speaker 01

  It's coming at us, there's no question. And I would like Canada to be not just a follower. This is really, more than anything, it's an IT challenge. And I think that Canada has a huge amount of talent to bring to it. But we don't want to be playing catch-up and following everybody else. So I think there's a chance for Canada to lead in this country with the development of automated vehicles, in leading in terms of intelligent transportation systems, in

• 23:58Speaker 01

  developing the optimum V2V and V2I communications, in helping to develop the software that will, you know, help us to minimize congestion in our cities. There's a huge amount that Canada can do. Perhaps also take on a challenge which is particular to countries like Canada that get covered with snow and ice, which can be quite different from driving on a nice Californian road. So, there are some things that Canada can do. At the transportation, in the Transport Canada, we have a facility up in Blaisdade, just north of Montreal.

• 24:38Speaker 01

  The other day I was in a convoy of three eighteen-wheelers, and they were all going at eighty-five kilometers, perfectly spaced from each other. The second and the third were just queuing off the first, the first truck, and the second off, the third off the second. The only thing the driver was doing was steering, because we were in bank courses, but the rest was all being controlled. Well, that's an area of development, connected vehicles, it's on a test track, but these kinds of things are things that we can do here in Canada, as well as what is happening in our universities, and, and the initiatives that the provinces are taking as well. I think we can make a contribution.

• 25:21Speaker 01

  To be perfectly honest with you, as Transport Canada, we're the regulator, we're playing catch-up with the technology. It's evolving so quickly that we're trying to, you know, put in place, we have to put regulations in place for, for all transportation modes, and we are trying to intelligently stay ahead of the curve, and we're also trying intelligently not to put too many obstacles in the way, regulatory obstacles in the way of the innovators, so that they can develop these technologies. So we want to help, to be part of it. And of course, the other aspect is that I work very closely with my counterpart in the United States, who is the Secretary of Transport. Of course, it's a new one.

• 26:06Speaker 01

  Now, her name is Elaine Chow, and I will be working very closely with her to make sure that we harmonize our regulations, because obviously, a lot of Canadians cross the border every day. So, those are the things that, that are important, and it's coming at us faster than, I think, anybody.

• 26:24Shane Parrish?

  I want to talk about at least three specific kind of second order impacts of that. One is, how do you perceive that self-driving cars will affect our investment in infrastructure such as roads? Will it change the size of the roads that we build? Because now we can put cars closer together with fewer accidents. How does that play out?

• 26:47Speaker 01

  I think there are still a lot of unknowns. Are we going to end up having less cars on the road to begin with? That is a question that some people say, yes, we will have less cars. Other people say, we're going to have just as many cars. I think that it's probably too early to know exactly how it's going to evolve in terms of infrastructure. We need certainly the smart, intelligent infrastructure that's going to provide all the necessary information to the vehicles to help them to optimally get from A to B

• 27:27Speaker 01

  in the most intelligent and cost-effective way, the least damaging to the environment. Those things are all part of it. But in terms of whether we end up having less roads, we're also at the same time trying to push for more public transit, as you know, in our country. So we could very well end up, I think, in the long run, perhaps over a long period of time, redeveloping our cities according to different criteria. We all know that our cities have all been built around cars. That's a truism.

• 28:10Speaker 01

  And as a result of that, we've paid some important prices with respect to that, congestion, pollution, those kinds of things. And I think a lot of thinking is that we should try to make sure that we don't make those new mistakes as we design new cities. We're stuck with the ones we have at the moment, but we can, I think, intelligently plant new cities in the future with the technology that is coming now.

• 28:39Shane Parrish?

  And what do you think will happen? Like, it strikes me that truck drivers is probably one of the number one professions in Canada, based on the sheer number of people doing it. It seems possible, or even reasonable, that within five to 10 years, all of those people could be out of jobs.

• 29:01Speaker 01

  Yes, and they're worried about it, too. You're quite right. There are a lot of taxi drivers are another example. So there are professions that could, as a result of automated vehicles and intelligent transportation systems, lose their jobs. And that's part of the evolution of a society. And the same applies in the manufacturing sector, where robotics is increasingly replacing the traditional manual labor that's involved there. So there are going to be big changes. And I think, again, there, our education system is playing catch-up as well.

• 29:45Speaker 01

  I don't think that we're riding the wave at the moment. I think we're trying to play catch-up there, because I think it's going to happen quickly.

• 29:56Shane Parrish?

  And the third kind of second-order impact there I want to talk about is if the cars become primarily based on software and they can interact with each other, what role does cybersecurity play in that? And what role does the government play for Canadians in that space?

• 30:12Speaker 01

  Well, cybersecurity is very important, because obviously, we do not want to have a situation where there's a capacity, from a hacking point of view, to influence how a car is driving itself. If it's based on this system of V2V and V2I, and it's working harmoniously, and you disrupt that intentionally, then you can lead to some pretty catastrophic results, especially if cars are on a highway and they're all driving. close to each other so cybersecurity is is part of the challenge that's involved there

• 30:54Speaker 01

  and and then there are interesting questions such as if an accident does occur whose fault is it and how does one purchase insurance how how will insurance companies price the insurance for automated vehicles there are lots of new issues that have to be dealt with

• 31:14Speaker 03

  it's me the

• 31:19Speaker 03

  we don't need the jingle twice stop it this is about vacation inflation and how Priceline negotiates amazing deals on hotels flights and rental cars yeah but I didn't mention that you can save up to 60% off hotels in the Priceline app fine no one deals more deals than please stop touche Priceline

• 31:45Speaker 04

  this episode is brought to you by Tic Tac lace up and get your game on because the Tic Tac lineup just got a new teammate Dr. Pepper Tic Tac this new double threat puts two of your favorite flavors into one box of mints and when two iconic flavors come together the result can only be iconic score big try Dr. Pepper Tic Tac today

• 32:09Shane Parrish?

  two questions just before we go to the audience questions here one question that came up a lot just as we were in here before is why don't we have a high-speed rail between Montreal and Toronto stopping in Ottawa please

• 32:23Speaker 01

  so via rail came forward with a proposal about a year ago to the government of Canada and it's called high frequency rail not high speed but high frequency and high frequency means that instead of six trains a day between Montreal and Ottawa there could be 12 that in itself offering people more hours of choice in terms of taking the train versus the car can make a difference I take the train by the way between Montreal and Toronto Montreal and Ottawa every week in both both directions

• 33:04Speaker 01

  But there is also another part to it, and that is converting to dedicated rail. Because Via Rail only owns 3% of this track. It rents the rest from CN and CP. And it has to stop when there's a freight train that goes by. If you've taken the train, you've probably heard the message, "Ladies and gentlemen, we're stopping. This is a normal procedure to let the freight CN train go by." So the fact of having dedicated rail will allow a faster train. Not high speed, but instead of 110 kilometers an hour, it can go at 107 kilometers an hour on its own dedicated track. So it will shorten the time, and it will offer people more choices.

• 33:47Speaker 01

  They proposed this to the federal government initially in the Montreal- Ottawa-Toronto corridor, which is a busy corridor, and we are studying this at the moment. In fact, we put $3 million in the budget to study it. So the things that we're looking at is their business case solid. When they project how many passengers will leave their cars behind and take the train, are those based on solid, if you like, analysis? So those are things that we're looking at. So that is something that could happen. We're in the middle of looking at it. And we're also looking at Quebec to Montreal and Toronto to Windsor,

• 34:31Speaker 01

  although the Ontario government is also, you should know, looking at a high-speed train proposal between Windsor and Toronto. That's a provincial initiative underway at the moment.

• 34:43Shane Parrish?

  And last question, before we go to the audience for questions. What is something that you believe to be true that most of your ministers would disagree with you or?

• 34:53Speaker 01

  Oh, my goodness.

• 34:59Speaker 01

  Well, though, we actually did go to the moon. No, I'm joking, I'm joking. My colleagues, my colleagues believe me when I tell them that we did go to the room. They're just being polite, they're just being polite. No, where I have a difference of opinion, I'd have to give it some thought. But as with any healthy group of people with different ideas, we don't all see everything the same way. And since this is going to be registered, I'm a little bit hesitant to tell you something. I believe that, and of course I know I'm right, and the rest of the colleagues are wrong, but... So sorry for skirting your question there.

• 35:42Shane Parrish?

  No problem. Okay, we can take questions from the audience?

• 35:46Speaker 05

  My train's question, but just still right, is this like legroom?

• 35:52Speaker 01

  No, that is a safety-related issue. Airplanes have to provide a certain legroom, elbow room spacing for safety reasons, in case you have to evacuate the airplane quickly. And that is a Transport Canada requirement. Now, we establish minimums. If an airplane uses those minimums versus another airline that gives you more room, you're going to want to go with the other one, if it gives you more room. So they are taking a chance, if they really stick you together like sardines, of losing business.

• 36:34Speaker 01

  But the only driver there is that there is a minimum with respect to safety. But the rest is up to the airlines.

• 37:11Speaker 06

  Si on regarde les corrélations, pas les corrélations... ...le nouveau dénominement des grandes villes, une nouvelle popularité certaines parties politiques, à la fois en Grande-Grande, aux États-Unis, en France, mais aussi au Canada. Je voulais savoir dans ce contexte, est-ce que vous avez une vision, une vision où on espère des transports, sur la bonne façon de gérer ces différents enjeux, une bonne façon de trouver l'équilibre donc entre les enjeux d'efficacité, la responsabilité politique qui découle des décisions qu'ils ont prises ?

• 37:38Speaker 07

  D'abord, si un parti est élu au gouvernement, il doit servir tout le pays, pas simplement ceux qui ont voté pour ce parti là. Alors nous avons une obligation de desservir tout le pays. Et nous devenons un pays de plus en plus urbain. Alors les régions nous disent parfois, les régions locales, qu'elles se font décliguer. Alors il faut qu'on s'adresse à leurs besoins, que ce soit en transport, que ce soit sur l'accès à l'internet. Ce sont des enjeux extrêmement importants parce que beaucoup de nos ressources sont dans les régions. Il faut les acheminer vers nos ports, vers les États-Unis, ces endroits là.

• 38:20Speaker 07

  Alors il faut qu'il y ait des modes de transport qui puissent s'occuper de ça. Deuxièmement, si on n'a pas accès à l'internet aujourd'hui, et notre gouvernement a fait un engagement de 500 millions de dollars pour continuer de rendre les régions plus accessibles à l'internet, on va se le faire dire. Et puis, poser des valeurs des urbains versus des régions, oui, vous avez raison. Parfois, dans certaines régions, les valeurs sont un peu différentes. Mais comme je l'ai mentionné, nous devons servir tout le pays. Et c'est pas seulement ceux qui nous ont élu, et c'est notre devoir de le faire.

• 39:03Speaker 07

  Et puis, c'est quelque chose qui était extrêmement important. Si on parle de l'agriculture, des ressources naturelles, des pêcheurs qui sont dans nos régions maritimes, ils font tous une contribution importante au pays. Et puis, il faut reconnaître ça dans la façon qu'on gère tout le pays.

• 39:28Speaker 08

  Two little questions. The first one, I seem to know the theories of Jeremy Riffkin. You may not forget, he is talking about intelligent cities, Internet of Things,

• 39:43Speaker 08

  automatic transport.

• 39:46Speaker 08

  It is a vision on Internet as coordinating almost everything in our lives. He is talking also about automatization of the transportation.

• 40:02Speaker 08

  But in this overview, you think that you can apply some of the theories of Riffkin, you can adapt some of the theories of Jeremy, who is invited all over in a lot of countries in the world, Europe, China and so on, and sometimes even in Canada. Or we will have a more adapted view?

• 40:32Speaker 08

  Because Canada is a little bit different from Europe, which is a lot of population concentrated in some areas. My second question, concerning the grand project currently in Quebec and Montreal. I read in a report that there are two phases of investment. The one in the middle, the one in the middle. It should be an investi with the government provincial and with Neville to realize the grand project that is in progress, from the Nouveau-Prince-Champlain,

• 41:16Speaker 08

  from the Grand Démission to others, the grand project in progress. Thank you.

• 41:24Speaker 01

  Okay, d'accord. Et sur votre première question, je dois admettre que je ne suis pas un expert sur Jeremy Rifkin, j'ai entendu le nom, donc si je me suis ressemblé à lui, c'était une coïncidence. Je pense que toute Europe a ses propres solutions, en fonction de sa géographie et de ses densités. Je pense que nous aurons probablement quelques similitudes, mais je pense que nous serons probablement plus semblables aux États-Unis, parce que nous interactons avec eux d'une grande partie, et nous avons des raisons mutuelles à harmoniser

• 42:04Speaker 01

  en termes de comment nous développons certaines choses, parce que nous floutons librement les frontières des uns des autres. En fait, je... Pas très beaucoup de gens savent que il y a un corps spécifique qui se concentre sur la réglementation harmonisée entre les deux pays. Imaginez, vous savez, nous gagnons plus de deux milliards de dollars par jour en commerce avec les États-Unis. Et c'est... Et où est-ce que ça va aller ? Oui, et c'est un gros problème. Donc les trains et les camions traversent les frontières des uns des autres, et les navires vont dans les nombreux États qui sont sur les grandes lèvres.

• 42:45Speaker 01

  Si nous arrivons à la frontière et qu'il y a un ensemble différent de règlement pour la sécurité et d'autres facteurs dès que vous traversez cette frontière, ça serait inévitable, ça serait ridicule. Donc nous et nos avions transportent les passagers, donc c'est dans notre intérêt de prendre des approches similaires. Donc je pense que nous allons probablement, et ils ont des géographies similaires aussi. Donc je pense que c'est la façon de faire. Par ailleurs, le système de transport intelligent, le World Forum, se déroule ici à Montreuil ce septembre, et il est fait par ITS America et ITS Canada.

• 43:23Speaker 07

  Sur votre deuxième question, l'investissement de notre gouvernement dans les infrastructures, qui touche les infrastructures de transport public, des infrastructures sociales, si je parle de logement verbal, logement social et infrastructures vertes vont s'évaluer à 180 milliards. 180 milliards durant les 12 prochaines années. Il y a un manque flagrant d'infrastructures modernes dans notre pays. 180 milliards ne sera pas assez, mais c'est un certainement un très bon début. Et l'argent, comme je l'ai mentionné, va être distribué dans différents domaines de l'infrastructure. On a des gens aussi cette année, 11.9 milliards. Ça, c'est la phase 1 comme vous l'avez mentionné.

• 44:07Speaker 07

  Et puis ça, c'est pour la réparation et l'entretien d'infrastructures existantes. Mais la phase 2 qui va commencer cette année va être pour les grands projets comme le règne de la Caisse de Dépôts ici, sur un quantitat, possiblement l'allongement de la ligne bleue. Ces choses-là, c'est eux qui vont recevoir de l'argent. Mais c'est ce genre de projets là, à Québec, qui veulent un réseau rapide d'autopubs. Ça, c'est des exemples de transport public. Il y a un manque absolument incroyable dans le domaine du logement social.

• 44:47Speaker 07

  Il y a beaucoup de gens ici à Montréal qui ont besoin de logements et qui n'ont pas la moyenne de les payer. C'est une autre infrastructure importante. Des systèmes d'égo, des systèmes d'opérateur, ces choses-là, c'est pas très élégant, mais c'est extrêmement important. On fait des investissements de ces choses-là et ça va commencer à être concrétisé cette année pour les 12 prochaines années.

• 45:18Speaker 09

  Hi, question about the innovation strategy of Transport Canada. You commented on how automation, self-driving arena, Canada is falling. As the next generation of transport is starting to show itself, for example, hyperloop, space travel, even flying cars, which seem almost inconceivable. What is Canada doing to try and spur that kind of innovation and once again capture leadership in transport innovation similar to the Canada arm we spoke about?

• 45:52Speaker 01

  Right, so the innovation part of it is my colleague Navdeep Bains. It's the Ministry of Innovation, Science and Economic Development. That's his mandate, innovation. And so, how is it done? It's by helping to fund promising technologies that will, or software developments that will help us to get there so that we as a country can be competitive, that we can lead, and we can, for example, in the aerospace world, we are a leader in that area, in a large number of different specific areas technically.

• 46:37Speaker 01

  It's an area where it's a success story. We'd like to be a success story, we have the potential to be a success story in modern transportation systems. Whether it's automated cars, or connected vehicles, or another area that is also new disruptive technology, UAVs or drones, Canada has the potential to be a leader. From a transport point of view, my job is on the regulatory side of things and the testing side of things. We have, there's now a test facility in Alberta, in a small town where you can test your drone technology.

• 47:17Speaker 01

  So, we are providing infrastructure for testing purposes, that's part of it. You know, somebody who has a great idea in developing a drone... "In their garage, needs to go out and test it. We can provide the facility for that. And then, and the funding, if it's a promising idea, may come from innovation, science, and economic development. So those two ministries together are key in working together to create the right conditions and support for that kind of technology to be developed. There is tremendous potential in this country.

• 47:59Speaker 01

  We have a very talented workforce and we have great, well-educated people who have great ideas. That's never a problem, great ideas, it's successfully taking them through to market."

• 48:14Speaker 09

  "Absolutely. We should offer Elon Musk testing facility to his high plane."

• 48:19Speaker 01

  "Yeah, no, I'd love to go on that. I met the guy once and we talked about rockets at the time, but now he's on to so many other things." "Yeah, you're welcome."

• 49:19Speaker 07

  Je vois le développement de nouveaux modes de transport comme Uber. Je ne crois pas qu'Uber est venu demander de l'argent au gouvernement. C'est un système qui a été mis en place et qui semble fonctionner parfaitement bien, si je peux dire.

• 49:41Speaker 07

  Pas tout le temps, des fois il y a des ajustements à faire, mais c'est quelque chose qui a évolué, qui vient du secteur privé et qui répond à un besoin. Et beaucoup de gens se servent de Uber pour leur transport. C'est une juridiction provinciale, ce n'est pas fédéral. De notre point de vue, encore une fois, si le système est sécuritaire, c'est quelque chose qui... c'est l'exigence que nous plaçons sur tous les modes de transport. Et si ça ne s'est satisfait, on est là pour encourager ces modes de développement.

• 50:18Speaker 07

  Alors, je crois que les systèmes comme Uber, les systèmes où on partage le transport, les systèmes de transport public, tous ces systèmes-là vont se concurrencer et essayer d'établir une position. Et en même temps, les véhicules automatisés, on s'en tenait. Uber, je crois déjà dit qu'eux pensent qu'à un moment donné, les gens n'achèteront plus d'automobiles. Ils se serviront constamment de véhicules qu'ils appelleront,

• 50:56Speaker 07

  mais ils iront de A à B en utilisant ces automobiles-là sans acheter leur propre automobile. On verra, on verra comment ça va évoluer de ce côté-là. Du point de vue du transport, notre responsabilité, c'est de nous assurer que c'est sécuritaire et que les règlements vis-à-vis de transport sont suivis. Le reste, c'est une évolution de la société. Et puis, une société dynamique développe ce genre de choses.

• 51:29Speaker 01

  Let's get this back.

• 51:31Speaker 09

  Regarding Canadian economy, I was wondering, do you think that transportation can help mostly economic growth in Canada?

• 51:42Speaker 01

  Okay, so one of the things that was announced in the budget, actually it was announced in the economic statement of Minister Bill Mornau, who's our Finance Minister, on the first of November, is an investment in what's called trade and transportation corridors. And it's a $10 billion, separate from everything else I've said so far, and that's going to be under my responsibility, and it's $10 billion over 11 years, and it's to make our trade corridors more efficient. Canada is a trading nation.

• 52:21Speaker 01

  We transport hundreds of, millions of tons of products across the country to our ports, or we go across the border into the United States on trains and trucks. We are a trading nation. If I talk about CN and CP, they transport about $280 billion worth of goods per year. How will we transport our goods to the port of Vancouver, which handles 140 million tons a year and ships out to the rest of the world, has a direct effect on our economic vitality.

• 53:04Speaker 01

  I personally regard transport as an economic portfolio. And if we do not efficiently get our grain, our manufactured products, our containers, our potash, our coal, our lumber...

• 53:22Speaker 01

  That the rest of the world wants. If we don't get them efficiently out to their destination, our customers will look elsewhere. So that is, in my opinion, a various... People don't appreciate it, but I think a critical part of a healthy economy is how well we move our goods, south of the border, or out to the Asian continent, or east to the European continent. So I'm focused, and that $10 billion will help us to debottleneck some of the places where our transportation system is not as effective as it needs to be.

• 54:02Shane Parrish?

  How could it be otherwise, really? Can you give an example of a country that has a solid economy without a solid infrastructure in transportation?

• 54:10Speaker 01

  Well, I think it's... No, I think you're right. It couldn't be otherwise. But if you're a small country, your challenge is much smaller. If you're a small country in a temperate climate, it's much smaller. Moving the amount of product that we move in this country over very large distances in what can sometimes be horrible weather conditions is a very challenging thing. And if you look at the North, where there is only rudimentary infrastructure and where a lot of the resources are located, how well we can make that system efficient can have a definite and important benefit for Canada.

• 54:55Speaker 01

  And that is something that we need to improve. We have time for two more questions.

• 55:01Speaker 10

  Just following up what you said. To what degree is transport being economic viable in competition with it being an environmental viable?

• 55:14Speaker 01

  It's a good question. So the biggest contributor to greenhouse gases in this country is the oil and gas sector. 25% of our greenhouse gases are the oil and gas sector. What comes second? Transportation. 23%.

• 55:32Speaker 01

  23% of the greenhouse gases that are produced by Canada come from the transportation sector. And 80% of that is cars and trucks. So if you look at trains, boats and planes and off-road vehicles, they're just less than 20%. So 80% is cars and trucks. And we have made a promise by signing the Paris Accord that we're going to reduce our greenhouse gases. And with that reduction, we'll also come polluting reductions by 30% below 2005 levels by 2030. That's in 13 years. So we have a tall order in front of us.

• 56:16Speaker 01

  And we have to aggressively move towards vehicles that are on renewable energy sources. We have to move towards electrical vehicles or hydrogen vehicles in a fairly aggressive way as we move towards, if transportation is going to do its share. Now, we are improving truck emissions. We are improving train emissions. We are, we just signed with ICAO, a very important international treaty with respect to mitigating the production of CO2 starting in 2021.

• 56:55Speaker 01

  Because international air, we deal with that through ICAO, through the International Civil Aviation Organization. Because it's a, the skies are international. They're not just Canada skies and German skies or whatever. So we are making progress in those areas. But we have to work hard to make sure that transportation is going to also do its share of reducing by 30% by 2030.

• 57:23Shane Parrish?

  Last question.

• 57:26Shane Parrish?

  Selon l'agence de la société Canada, il y a deux moyens pour réduire les gaz à 100%. Pour le sujet, la congestion publique routière et améliorer la sensibilité. C'est pas la formation qui transpare, c'est pas le plan de la formation qui transpare pour ce sujet.

• 57:43Speaker 07

  On encourage le transport actif bien sûr et heureusement de plus en plus de gens voyagent par vélo ou à pied. Et puis c'est quelque chose que notre gouvernement va encourager. C'est une initiative qui est, je crois, championnée particulièrement par Environnement Canada, Environnement et Chambre climatiques Canada. Un rôle que nous jouons et que j'ai assuré l'automne dernier parce que je rencontre les ministres provinciaux et territoriaux de transport, c'est de nous adresser au problème dans le transport actif de la vulnérabilité des voyageurs en transport actif.

• 58:28Speaker 07

  Nous avons tous vu ici même à Montréal, des incidents où des camions ont écrasé des cyclistes ou des piétons. Alors, on a commencé une étude pour s'adresser à la question, voir si on peut mettre en place des mesures qui rendraient les routes plus sécuritaires vis-à-vis des camions. Ultimement, c'est tout une difficulté de mettre ça en place, mais nous allons faire l'étude et offrir et proposer des choses que les camionneurs en particulier pourraient mettre en place

• 59:11Speaker 07

  pour qu'ils soient plus conscients de ce qui est autour de eux. Parce qu'on l'a tous vu, des fois des camions, le conducteur est dans une position élevée, ne voit pas nécessairement exactement ce qui se passe autour et des fois il y a des accidents qui se produisent. Alors, du point de vue de Transport Canada, dans un sens, c'est pour essayer d'encourager l'augmentation du transport actif. Et puis on va essayer de mettre en place des mesures pour ça. Et je sais que mon collègue à Environnement Canada veut aussi faire la promotion parce que c'est sûr ça va nous aider.

• 59:50Shane Parrish?

  Marc, je voudrais vous remercier beaucoup en mémoire.

• 1:00:02Shane Parrish?

  Hey guys, this is Shane again. Just a few more things before we wrap up. You can find show notes at farnamstreetblog.com/podcast. That's F-A-R-N-A-M-S-T-R-E-E-T-B-L-O-G.com/podcast. You can also find information there on how to get a transcript. And if you'd like to receive a weekly email from me filled with all sorts of brain food, go to farnamstreetblog.com/newsletter. This is all the good stuff I've found on the web that week that I've read and shared with close friends, books I'm reading, and so much more. Thank you for listening.