#100 Matt Mullenweg: Collaboration Is Key

Matt Mullenweg is the co-founder of WordPress, the open platform that runs most of the sites you visit and the CEO of Automattic. In this episode Matt and Shane discuss distributed work, the 5 levels of autonomous organizations, decision making, running an organization with more than 1300 people, integrating acquisitions and so much more. -- Want even more? Members get early access, hand-edited transcripts, member-only episodes, and so much more. Learn more here: https://fs.blog/membership/ Every Sunday our Brain Food newsletter shares timeless insights and ideas that you can use at work and home. Add it to your inbox: https://fs.blog/newsletter/ Follow Shane on Twitter at: https://twitter.com/ShaneAParrish Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  I believe all proprietary software to be an evolutionary dead end. Maybe it'll take 50 or 100 years. But what happens, just like what happened fairly quickly with Encyclopedia Britannica and other encyclopedias and Wikipedia, is that the thing which is open to all and gets everyone working together, if it truly gets that sort of humanity working together on the same shared resource, you get the opposite of the tragedy of the commons versus the field being overrun, each person operating in their own self-interest, sort of kills the environment or kills the shared thing. Each person operating in their own self-interest makes the shared thing better and better. And in digital world, we can do that because we have economics, economics of abundance versus economics of scarcity. That's why open source will eventually win every market it's in.

• 1:00Shane Parrish?

  Welcome to The Knowledge Project. I'm your host, Shane Parrish. This podcast and our website, fs.blog, help sharpen your mind by mastering the best of what other people have already figured out. If you're hearing this, you're not currently a supporting member. If you'd like early access to the podcast, ad-free episodes, transcripts, and other subscriber-only content, you can join at fs.blog/podcast. Check out the show notes for a link. There's no better guest for a 100th episode than Matt Mullenweg. Matt's the co-founder of WordPress, the open platform that runs most of the sites you visit, as well as the CEO of Automattic. More than that, though, Matt is one of the most kind and thoughtful people I've ever met. We talk a lot about distributed work, including the five levels of autonomous organizations,

• 1:43Shane Parrish?

  and of course, we dive into decision-making, running an organization with more than 1,300 people, integrating acquisitions, and so much more. You'll walk away from this episode with better ideas on how to lead a distributed team or effort, integrating new teams when cultures don't match, and how to avoid problems before they happen. It's time to listen and learn.

• 2:10Shane Parrish?

  Matt, I'm so excited to talk to you, man.

• 2:12Speaker 00

  I'm so excited to be here. One of my favorite WordPress sites in the world.

• 2:17Shane Parrish?

  Oh, yeah, definitely. What percentage of the internet are you now? Like 50, 60?

• 2:24Speaker 00

  No, not yet, not yet. I think we're 38% of the top 10 million websites, which is more than 10 times the number two.

• 2:31Shane Parrish?

  Yeah, yeah. Farm Street's like 00002% of that, but...

• 2:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, but it's like 12% of the awesomeness.

• 2:39Speaker 00

  And you have a very rare two-letter blog domain.

• 2:42Shane Parrish?

  We do.

• 2:43Speaker 00

  One of the only's in the world.

• 2:45Shane Parrish?

  Thanks to you, that was possible. So really appreciate that. How did WordPress get started? Like, what's the origin story behind WordPress?

• 2:52Speaker 00

  Gosh, WordPress came out of sort of a passion. I was blogging and found the software called B2. Essentially, I found it as like the most customizable blogging software out there. But it's very small. The dominant one was called Movable Type, which is kind of like a static site publisher. Probably had 95% of the market. But I liked B2. And I started volunteering on the forums and writing little code patches for it and like helping other people. And so got involved in that community, which I've always found the most exciting part of building things or being online is being part of community. And when the software kind of got abandoned, I blogged about that and said, "I'd love to see something that combined the best." I think it was the simplicity of blogger, customizability, or the power of Movable Type,

• 3:37Speaker 00

  the elegance of text pattern, and the hackability of B2. There was four different blogging platforms at the time. So kind of tried to combine all those things. And this fellow I'd never met in the UK named Mike Little was like, "Hey, if you're serious about this, let's work on this together." He was another volunteer on the forums and things, and also a real developer. I was like a 19-year-old kid in Houston. He was a professional. And so we just started hacking together, coding together, and that turned into WordPress.

• 4:01Shane Parrish?

  And how did that like overtake the world? Was it just like it was such a butter mousetrap? Or was it a timing thing? Or like, what was the... What would you describe the reasons of that sort of?

• 4:11Speaker 00

  One sat at a time, and still to this day. You know, I believe in sort of incentives and environments and markets always trump, you know, anything one individual or company can do. And I think WordPress is a great example of that. The competitors, others in the market, were far better entrenched, far better funded, had hundreds of employees, were launching on stage at TED, had kind of every advantage. Yet this open source thing eventually overtook it. And I believe the reason for that was that we had, we created a community. So it wasn't just people being paid to work on something, people working on something because they love doing it. It was incredibly sort of adaptable, so WordPress could be used for, and customized for any purpose.

• 4:56Speaker 00

  And it had a philosophy, both sort of an aesthetic philosophy, which was largely centered around jazz, both then and now. This idea that code could be poetry, but the open source philosophy, which I, I believe is the most powerful idea I've been exposed to in my lifetime. And probably one that all of your listeners should incorporate into their lives. I don't think Charlie Munger's talked about it yet, so we might have to introduce it here.

• 5:19Shane Parrish?

  Can you expand on that a little bit?

• 5:21Speaker 00

  Yeah. So, open source is kind of like software with a bill of rights attached, right? Like in the United States, I know you're Canadian, so I apologize, but you know, the bill of rights essentially ensures certain freedoms. Most famously, like freedom of speech being the first amendment. For open source, there's what's called the four freedoms attached, and particularly the license we build on, which is the GPL. Because they're geeks, they start counting from zero. So freedom zero is the freedom to use the software for any purpose. This means no one can tell you what you can or cannot do with a software. If you wanted to make a WordPress sucks site, or Shane is awesome, or fs.blog, or literally anything, no one can tell you what you can or can't do. Freedom one is the ability to see how the software works.

• 6:05Speaker 00

  So to be able to open up the hood, see how it operates, which, you know, if you're going to operate from first principles, or you want to understand how something works, you need to see what's under the hood. And so much of our lives now are essentially digital black boxes, like we, we have no idea what's going on. And more and more, as more and more of our lives are influenced, you know, who we date, when we meditate, what we pay attention to, what news we read, are essentially these black box algorithms, we are losing our... Agency and sovereignty over ourselves. So being able to see how it works is really important. But it doesn't matter if you can see how it works if you can't modify it. So that's freedom too. The ability to modify the software. And this is where you get into why open source almost always wins. So I believe that open source comes to dominate any market that enters over time.

• 6:50Speaker 00

  And the key word is over time, because sometimes it takes many decades. And then finally is the freedom to distribute those changes. So, you know, actually, our main competitor had a couple of those freedoms. So movable type, you could see the software, how it worked. You could open up the hood, you could change it, but you weren't allowed to redistribute those changes. So you could just use them for yourself. The ability to distribute those changes means that the software takes on like, almost like an evolutionary dynamic where there's sort of survival functions and like that WordPress itself was actually a fork. So kind of like an evolutionary branch of existing software called B2. When B2 died, there were like five or six of these different branches. And WordPress ended up being the one that was the most fit and survived.

• 7:33Shane Parrish?

  That's amazing. I love the concept of being able to sort of look under the hood and see what's going on. How do you commercialize that though? Like what causes people to work on open source projects?

• 7:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, part of the freedom is the freedom to charge for it or the freedom to commercialize it or the freedom to sell it. Anyone listening to this could take WordPress and sell it to others. In fact, many, many do. You can get WordPress from Bluehost or GoDaddy or Amazon or a million different places. In addition to getting it from WordPress.com, which we run. So that's part of what's built in there. And there's different business models around open source. There's some which try to say like, here's this open source thing, but we'll give you the same thing under a different license or we'll put the best features into a paid version. I personally don't like that because it seems to take what makes open source successful. And essentially you have create the incentives against it, right? Because if you played it out 10, 20 years from now, your very best features are going to go into

• 8:26Speaker 00

  the paid version and the open source thing will probably wither on the vine a bit. And we've seen some of this happen. So the approach that we take is essentially making all the best stuff in what we call core, which is a software you can download from WordPress and WordPress.org and use for any purpose. And then we create services around it. So the first one we launched was actually anti spam service called Akismet, which just celebrated its, I think, 500 billionth spam blocked.

• 8:54Shane Parrish?

  I remember, I remember that from back in the, back in the day. How amazing was that? Like, that's an arms race, though, like blocking spam. Well, like, talk to me through that, through the comments and trying to figure out if it's like a legitimate person, or?

• 9:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's actually one of the things I'm most proud of. Today, we call it like a machine learning AI system, but at the time we didn't. And it's now, 10 years later, it still has over five nines of accuracy for blocking spam and, and keeping, and allowing good stuff through. So it's essentially like, basically, again, it's all about markets. Markets always trump anything an individual company could do. And there were all these solutions to blocking spam on sites, but they would only work for that one site. And of course, what happened is the spammers would tweak their code and, and it would start working. So we created a system that essentially allowed all the kids being bullied on the playground to work together and to gang up. And of course, that's what makes humanity great, is our ability to collaborate. So we started collaborating against the spammers.

• 9:51Speaker 00

  And so they would adapt very quickly, but the network would adapt in real time to their changing tactics. And, and particularly with web spam, typically web spam is trying to direct either a search engine or a person to a place. So that provided a really great avenue of, well, you know, a ton about security, of being able to target these. Because ultimately, they didn't just want to, you know, they didn't want to rank first in Google for V1GR4, right? They wanted to rate first for Viagra or mesothelioma, or whatever the random term they're trying to rank is. And so that ultimately ended up being one of the weaknesses. And still is a weakness of spam today. They still are trying to spam you to a particular website.

• 10:29Shane Parrish?

  And was Akismet the start of Automattic? Or was it, was there a different origin? Because you're running Automattic now.

• 10:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, so I was in college. I ended up dropping out to take a job at CNET, which was a digital media company, which was an early adopter of WordPress. And after a year there, I was like, I really want to work on this full time. I sort of pitched them WordPress.com and all the things Automattic would like to do. They said, well, we don't, we don't want to do that, but we'll, we'll support you, we'll invest in you. And so that was kind of the genesis. Akismet, funnily enough, used to be called Automatic Spam Stopper, till we realized that was an unfortunate acronym. Naming is usually not my forte, and actually, my sister, I believe, came up with that name. And that was our very first product, and it was a plugin for WordPress. It's also a plugin for many other systems.

• 11:16Speaker 00

  So some large social networks use it, comedy systems like Discuss, other platforms like Move Type, Drupal can all use Kismet, and that was also one of the ideas. Tell me a little bit more about Automattic. Like, what do you guys do? And... So Automattic started, actually, 15 years ago. I just celebrated my 15th anniversary with the company. And the idea was to essentially create a company which tried to build and flourish from the open web and open source. So we wanted, I wanted to create a place where I could work on open source full-time, and all the other developers of WordPress could benefit from it. We also wanted to create a company, a for-profit, that was paired with a nonprofit, where each one would be stronger than either would be on its own.

• 11:58Speaker 00

  So I think nonprofits can do awesome things, I think for-profits can do awesome things. But with WordPress, we have essentially wordpress.org, which is open-source software, which is not owned by Automattic. We have Automattic, which creates services for wordpress.org. And then there's a huge ecosystem outside of that. You know, WordPress, as you mentioned earlier, has some of the most incredible market share, and that's been very rewarding. But Automattic, the company, actually has smaller revenue than than other companies that you've probably heard of, because we only make a few percentage of the dollars in the WordPress ecosystem. So we've always targeted, and I got this, there seemed to be sort of a law of platforms, going all the way back to like DOS and Windows. If you look at like the launch of Windows 95, one of the things Microsoft would talk about, hey, would you remember that launch?

• 12:42Speaker 00

  There was like, people would line up at Best Buy, it was like a new iPhone or something. I feel like there was like a Rolling Stones song, and, you know, people got really into it. Yeah, yeah, okay. So one of the things Microsoft would talk about at the time is for every dollar we make from Windows, 19 or 20 dollars are made by the Windows ecosystem. And so that's kind of like a, you know, call it, they were about 5%. And I kept finding this ratio that's like 20 to one everywhere in successful platforms. Not on fake platforms, like it's not on the Facebook platform. Facebook made like 90% of the dollars in that ecosystem, but in others. And so in building automatic, I wanted to create a company which didn't take all the oxygen out of the room. So we would try to make about 5% of the revenue in the WordPress ecosystem. And then grow the pie as much as possible.

• 13:25Shane Parrish?

  That's a, that's a really good concept because I guess the theory behind that is if you're, you're capturing more value than you create, you'll inevitably die. And if you're not capturing enough value, you'll inevitably die. You have to capture a little bit, but not too much, always less than the value you create for others.

• 13:44Speaker 00

  That's the idea. And so the products we've evolved into doing are WordPress.com, which is kind of like our easy hassle free version of WordPress. Woocommerce, which is, I think, one of the fastest growing ecommerce platforms in the world. It's essentially ecommerce built on top of WordPress, so you get the best of both. And that's doing well over 20 billion of GMV now and growing really quickly.

• 14:05Shane Parrish?

  Oh, wow.

• 14:06Speaker 00

  And then Tumblr, which actually was an acquisition we did last year, which is a, you know, one of our blogging competitors. We were able to acquire it and we're redoing it, switching it to actually be powered by WordPress on the backend. And trying to create a sort of like nice social space on the web.

• 14:22Shane Parrish?

  How do you feel about the Tumblr acquisition? It's about a year later now, isn't it? Like a little more over a year or a bit a year?

• 14:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think it was 13 months ago now. Definitely by far the biggest one we've done in terms of 180 people, different culture. You know, at the time they were based mostly in an office in Manhattan. So a lot of things to bridge. I suppose I should mention that automatic from the beginning has been distributed. So we always were people working from all around the world. Today, that's about 1,300 people in 77 countries and almost every US state. I think four of the provinces in Canada. But when we bought Tumblr, they were based in this one office. So a lot to bridge about the culture. And it's definitely a turnaround. You know, Tumblr, I believe, was bought for a billion dollars by Yahoo in 2012, 2013.

• 15:09Shane Parrish?

  Yep, Chris O'Meara did that.

• 15:10Speaker 00

  I think it was a really smart acquisition, by the way. But, you know, they got sort of the head of other problems. You know, Yahoo, kind of famously. And Yahoo merged with AOL, became Oath. And then Oath was acquired by Verizon, which became Verizon Media. And you have this amazing community and like set of things called Tumblr, which is just like the smallest fly on the back of a rhino, on the back of like, you know, a mountain, which is Verizon. And so we were able to work out a really good deal with Verizon, where we were able to acquire Tumblr for a de minimis amount. I think they were going for the maximum rate down. And then sort of take everything on and try to turn it around. I love turnarounds.

• 15:52Speaker 00

  So I don't know if, we can only do one every couple of years. But to me, it's incredibly, incredibly fun to take something which the market has sort of undervalued, sort of an unset gem, and really polish it up. And that was honestly, most of our most successful products, including like WooCommerce, were, I don't think, really appreciated or valued by the market at the time when we brought them in and made them part of the Automattic family.

• 16:16Shane Parrish?

  Talk to me a little bit more about how you think about turnarounds as the CEO. You purchase a company. What are the next steps in your mind? How are you thinking about integrating that? Are you leaving the culture alone? Are you changing it? Like, walk me through everything that's going on in your head at that point in time.

• 16:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, so Automattic is structured a bit like a holding company. So I like to think of us as like Berkshire Hathaway with a common digital platform. It's definitely what we aspire to. And so we can have these products like Tumblr, which run largely autonomously within. However, different from, you know, Warren Buffett and Charlie Munger's approach, we do try to take, essentially get economies of scale. And from our culture, like our hiring, our technical platform, our infrastructure, you know, the 30, 40 data centers we built around the world, things like that. So we were able to take twenty five, thirty million a year of cost out of Tumblr, just by kind of bringing it over to our systems,

• 17:15Speaker 00

  which brought them a lot closer to being break even. In terms of culture, I wouldn't purchase a company that I didn't want to be influenced by and also hope to influence. So I think if you do it right, the automatic culture and the Tumblr culture become something new together. And that's what we've been doing. And we do that as well through lots of rotations. So lots of people from, you know, who were at Automattic before have rotated on to work on the Tumblr team. And vice versa, we've had people from Tumblr either merging with other teams in Automattic or sort of collaborating across things. And this is a fine balance, right? Like, all organizational structures are a series of trade offs. But it allows us to get the benefits of having something that can kind of run on its own

• 17:59Speaker 00

  while still sharing knowledge and expertise and sort of unfair benefits that Automattic might have that other companies don't have access to. And Tumblr wouldn't have access to it if it were its own independent company.

• 18:09Shane Parrish?

  So the cross pollination, is that how you influence the culture? Like, it's not a top down, we're gonna slowly nudge this a little bit differently. It's more like we're gonna place people at different levels in the organization? Or is it the same level? Is it the top? Is it the bottom?

• 18:24Speaker 00

  I mean, people is by far the most important thing because the people, everything else flows from the people. So you definitely want cross pollination of people. In terms of technology, I don't feel like you can force engineers to do things that they don't want to do. So that's much more like showing the benefits. The only places where we'll do something really top down is if there is a really large capital impact. I think it probably would have been a little bit easier just to completely recreate, you know, buy the six thousand servers that they had before and buy the exact number with the exact configuration in our data centers. We ended up reducing that to about eight hundred. So we went from six thousand servers to eight hundred. And part of that was, you know, doing a lot of engineering work to bring things on to

• 19:09Speaker 00

  sort of what we've learned with best practices and being super duper frugal with everything we build. And so it took a little bit of work, but it just saved so much that it made sense to make that kind of like, no, we're absolutely going to do this decision.

• 19:22Shane Parrish?

  I want to keep going a little bit more on this. Is it run by the same person it was run by before? Or is it run by somebody new?

• 19:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, so the CEO, Jeff, is still in place. So he was the CEO before, and he's the CEO now.

• 19:34Shane Parrish?

  So that's really interesting, right? Because that sort of leads me to speculate that environment matters a lot to how people perform. Is that something you think about?

• 19:44Speaker 00

  I think it's the most important thing by far. So like in running a company and running a community with WordPress, we're obsessing over the environment we're creating. And I think there's a microcosm of that. Like, think about the environment around you in your office or where you're working. The smells, the temperature, the lights, the inputs, the music, everything contributes to how you're operating. And companies have equivalents of that. And communities have equivalents of that. You know, in WordPress, we have, you know, 5, 10,000 people contributing to WordPress on a regular basis. Now, what sort of environment is happening there? We have something happening right now, which I think is fairly unique and exciting for open source, which is WordPress 5.6, which

• 20:29Speaker 00

  is coming out fairly soon, is an all-women release lead squad.

• 20:34Shane Parrish?

  Oh, wow. That's awesome.

• 20:35Speaker 00

  It's a result of, you know, the past decade of trying to make WordPress a really open, inclusive, friendly place to be. And it wasn't that there was ever a specific gender target or anything like that. It was just like, hey, like, why do most open source projects only attract a certain type of person? Not even like one gender, but like, a certain type of person who like loves to fight and be on mailing lists and like, and then what sort of products does that create over time? If we're trying to create products for the world, our mission is to democratize publishing and commerce. So if we want to truly democratize it, which means everyone has access to it, regardless of language, technical ability, anything, we need to

• 21:13Speaker 00

  You know, get as many of the world involved in building this. And so I think about that for every aspect, even language. I want people who don't even have the ability to speak or read English to be able to contribute to WordPress and have their code included.

• 21:27Shane Parrish?

  Like, go deeper on some of the other differences, or not differences, but things that you see as environmentally impacting people's ability to not only contribute, but perform at work, in work. What helps people, what unleashes them inside the organization environmentally that we might not see as constraints, as somebody who's thought about this a lot?

• 21:48Speaker 00

  The best framework I found, I believe I got from Dan Pink in his book Drive, which is mastery, autonomy, and purpose. Mastery is essentially being challenged and getting good at what you do. You know, think of it when you're on the edge of that curve for learning a new skill. Autonomy is essentially the freedom to be able to do it. So you're not being micromanaged. You're not being, you know, so many people in organizations know what the right thing is to do and they can't do it. And finally, purpose is working for something bigger than yourself. I think that it's very difficult to drive world-changing performance if it's just for a paycheck or just for your own personal benefit. You need to be connected to something larger. That's probably the easiest for us because pretty much everything we create is open source.

• 22:34Speaker 00

  We do have this mission to democratize things that we've had almost since, you know, for 17 years now. And we take it very seriously and we see the results of that. You know, we've been able to get a good chunk of the web on open source. And I believe we have the ability to create a national monopoly of 80, 85% of the world's websites running on open source. And if we do that, that means, I believe, that we'll preserve the open web for another generation of human flourishing. I think it's actually important for like the evolution of society and humanity for us to accomplish this goal. It's kind of our, our version of going to Mars for Elon Musk. Like, this is key because a proprietary closed web doesn't, well, we see what happens with that because it's been a lot of it the past few years. That's our purpose. So if you get those three things there, I find the rest falls into place.

• 23:19Shane Parrish?

  You mentioned something earlier about how you guys are distributed and you didn't use remote. You used distributed. What's the distinction there?

• 23:27Speaker 00

  Words create reality and we obsess a lot over what words we use to describe things. I think we used to use remote to describe what we were like, hey, we're a remote company or a remote-first company. And I realized like, who wants to be remote from their colleagues? Remote implies that there's like something central and you're far away from it. You know, there's a remote mountain or you're in a remote town. You're isolated. What's a lot closer to what we were trying to create was essentially an anti-fragile, fully distributed organization that each node on the network was at an equal weight with each other. And just like a great network design with like BGP failover or something like that. Like the, or the, the system itself becomes quite resilient because the nodes are relatively independent, but each able to fully contribute.

• 24:10Speaker 00

  So for us, we shifted to being, calling it distributed and really talking about distributed because it's so important that every single person in the company has an equal ability to contribute.

• 24:21Shane Parrish?

  Sort of like when you were saying that, I was thinking about how words matter and we're calling, you know, during COVID, we call it social distancing, but it's really physical distancing because we don't want to be distant socially. We just want to physically have a gap between us for, you know, spread purposes. And I thought that was a really interesting distinction.

• 24:37Speaker 00

  It's why it matters in the beginning too, right? Because I've tried to change that. I've like talked about physical distancing. I've tried to use in the conversation, but at some point, there's so much momentum around the term, you're kind of stuck with it. So naming things, particularly in the beginning, is so important because, you know, whatever your code name is, or whatever the, the, the thing is, the internal name, you know, you're going to end up with that almost certainly for a long time. And changing names later is, is, especially if you're successful, is almost impossible.

• 25:07Shane Parrish?

  Yeah, I can definitely see that terminology, once it gets a hold of you is like so hard to, to get rid of. What are the differences between going distributed at this point in time, in these circumstances, and being distributed by default from the start?

• 25:23Speaker 00

  In a global pandemic, I think that there's just aspects of life which are very difficult and challenging that you wouldn't have in a non-pandemic scenario. So. Uh, part of what's I think great about distributed. You know, one question we often get is like, why aren't people lonely? Cause they're, you know, they don't have a, their friendships at work and things. And they could be certainly like if, if your only social network is at work, you, you might be lonely if you weren't working with people physically. But then what does that open up? It opens up the opportunity for you to choose people around you geographically to spend time with, who you can talk about things other than work. You talk about with them at work, you talk about with someone else. You can play ultimate frisbee. You can do a Among Us or Settlers of Catan. You can go to music, you can.

• 26:06Speaker 00

  And part of our model of distributed work also provides a fair amount of autonomy in how people get the work done. So, you know, if you're customer support, you need to be on a few certain hours a week, but you have a lot of autonomy in choosing those hours. If you're an engineer or designer, you need to accomplish certain things. But gosh, if you could do that in one hour a week, good for you. Uh, it's really about getting from A to B. We're not tracking, um, you know, how you do it. So that allows people a lot of flexibility to design their, their day around what works best for them. You know, there's folks who wake up every morning, start work at 4:30 AM. I would never ask someone to do that, but that's, that's where they feel most productive. They get a couple of hours in before their kids wake up.

• 26:48Speaker 00

  In non pandemic times, a lot of automaticians love dropping their kids off from school and picking them up. That's easy to do because you don't have to like leave an office, walk into a parking lot, see all your colleagues, see you going somewhere and wonder if you're goofing off. Like it's just part of your day. And I like that it creates a lot more objectivity and focus around what the actual work is. Because I believe in offices, we're so distracted, just as like human, social animals, by all the things around the work. How someone dresses, whether they're present or not, what times they're present. Do they appear to be working really hard? And these things are, you know, they're the map, not the territory, right?

• 27:25Shane Parrish?

  Yeah, definitely. I had a friend once, he worked for an investment bank and he, he figured out very quickly, this was like a FaceTime culture thing, not necessarily a you're working all the time thing. So he did this sort of, I would call it clever. Uh, he hired the janitor who used to come in at like three or four AM to switch his coat and turn on his computer every day. So it looked like he was the first person in the office and he would stroll in at 10. And, you know, like he had just come from a meeting or something and everybody had thought he'd been there because his computer monitor was on and his coat had changed. Like, yeah, it was hilarious. How he had thought about that.

• 28:03Speaker 00

  I love that, sir. I'm going to use that in the future, but it's so much easier. I think it's easier to slack off in an office than it is in a distributed environment.

• 28:10Shane Parrish?

  I think it's easier to hide it, right? Because in distributed, you can just, you can, you can do dishes, you can, you know, get caught up with all this stuff at home, especially if you've never worked from home before. And then, but your performance stands out in a way that it doesn't in the office, because you can sort of like hide behind these signaling and all these meetings and walking around with a lot of folders and people. You can go months before people like clue in that you actually haven't done anything.

• 28:36Speaker 00

  Yeah. I like that because ultimately, like, we want to be as close to the reality of work as possible. And all these other things are false proxies. So the more we can make it a bit more objective about accomplishing the goal of the business, I think the better that is. And also, by the way, I believe that's way more inclusive.

• 28:55Shane Parrish?

  Talk to me about the levels of autonomous organizations.

• 28:59Speaker 00

  So I think actually one of the reasons I was avoiding coming on this podcast, because I was like, because you asked me like very early on. I was like, I want to get my book out first, because I was really convinced I was going to write this book about distributed work. And in the past few years, the company's just been growing too fast, have prioritized other things. So what I ended up doing was starting a podcast and then doing that for a little bit. I was going to make that like the step to the book. I was going to do like the Tim Ferriss thing. But then the pandemic happened and I realized that there were so many companies really struggling with the switch to distributed that I could help them. And it should be a very small way that I contributed. And I also started talking to dozens and dozens of them.

• 29:43Speaker 00

  CEOs of top five financial firms with, you know, hundreds of thousands of employees that I had at dinner, which is months before that said, we could never be distributed. And then months later, they're like 98% of our workforce is, is working from home and we're doing great. And like, so I got to see from the inside lots of it going well, going poorly, everything. I came up with these five levels. I call them the five levels of distributed autonomy. Decided to introduce it on Sam Harris's podcast, which I recommend checking out that one too, if you haven't. Essentially what they are, are how companies evolve through working in a distributed fashion. Because I'm an engineer, we start counting at zero. So there's a secret six level. So level zero is a job which absolutely cannot be done distributed. What's funny is we think a lot of jobs were level zero. It turns out they weren't under the pandemic.

• 30:28Speaker 00

  So I like to refer to like telemedicine. You used to think you needed to go into the doctor to have him look at that, you know, rash on your kid, and now you can do that all online. So level, what level zero think of like construction, maybe being one. Level one is one, if you weren't in the office or with your other colleagues for a little bit of time, you could get by, but it's, the environment's not really suited for it. So typical in level one is like, if you had a family emergency, you had to go pick up your kids from school. Maybe you could hop on a phone call, but maybe you wouldn't have access to like the VPN or internal company resources. It wasn't really designed for that. So you get by for a day, but you're pretty unhappy. Level two is where most companies went to in the pandemic.

• 31:11Speaker 00

  So level two is where you basically try to take the, everything you did in the office and recreate it online. And this is like the cargo cult of distributed work, right? Like you, you say, oh, um, you know, we used to be in six hours of meetings a day. Now let's be in six hours of Zooms a day. And let's have these ways of reporting and let's, um, you know, maybe you have access to more of the tools online. Uh, a typical, if you're in level two, you might feel totally exhausted at the end of every day in a way you never did in the office. Lots of level two organizations have too many meetings, you know? They worry about mon, installing monitoring software on their employees' computers or like, you know, they don't have a good way for people to, to have a home office set up or things like that.

• 31:56Speaker 00

  Level three is where you start to embrace the benefits of being online. So this is where, uh, think of it like, we like to have a Google Doc when we have meetings. You know, we have a Google Doc that's open on everyone's computer. And we're taking notes in real time and everyone is looking at that next to sort of the Zoom. And this allows kind of a real time record of whatever is being recorded in the meeting. And also that becomes a sense-making apparatus. So if someone is taking the notes, which by the way, we can share, and they see something written down, which wasn't what they thought was said, all of a sudden, you're reconciling that difference. And that's super, super powerful because how many times have we been in meetings? We thought we all agreed, and then a week later, you realize like everyone had different definitions of the terminology you used and ideas of what success was and everything.

• 32:40Speaker 00

  That's just one simple example, which is like off-the-shelf Google Docs and Zoom that is actually like a major force multiplier for success at meetings. Level three, you start to have fewer meetings too, which I like. But level three is still synchronous, though. You're still expecting people to be kind of online, working together at the same time to get work done. Level four is where you go from synchronous to asynchronous. And this one's kind of magical. By the way, it's also really, really hard. It's much easier to work together if you're there at the same time and you can kind of ping pong back and forth. But if you're able to design an organization that people popping in and out at whatever time zone or whatever times are able to fully contribute and move forward their goals in a meaningful way, then you unlock access to the world's talent.

• 33:25Speaker 00

  You unlock ultimate flexibility in everyone's day. You give people a ton of autonomy. And I believe asynchronous interactions can be far richer than synchronous ones. You unlock the power of the introverts in your company, people for whom in a real-time meeting, they might hang back a little bit or be shy, or they might need to think about things to really contribute their best thoughts. There's a French phrase I love. Okay, I'm not going to say the French, but essentially it means stairway wit. And it's like the comeback you have or the joke you think of when you pass it one on the stairs, but you think of it when you're at the bottom of the stairs. Unlocking that asynchronicity, I think, makes organizations far, far better. So for example, inside Automattic, we have this internal blogging system called P2.

• 34:10Speaker 00

  You can actually check it out at wordpress.com/p2, P like pool and the number two. And so if we're trying to make a decision for like, you know, this widget inside the product, we don't call a bunch of meetings about it. We create a thread. And so this internal blogging thread, someone will say, hey, we need to decide on this widget. Now, let's discuss it for 36 hours and then we're going to make a decision. And then everyone essentially has almost like an internal comment thread. That's kind of like a mix between, not just like a blogging comment thread or a forum, where they can discuss and they can embed videos and gifs and mockups and discussions and link to research and everyone's kind of participating in their own time. And they're writing essentially like little mini essays. So instead of just on the cuff responses and reactions to things, we're able to like, really think about it.

• 34:55Speaker 00

  Take around, walk around the block, take a shower, you know, play with your dog. Like, think about the problem and really ruminate on it and bring your best answer to. And then everyone's doing that back and forth. And then at the end of the time period, we can say, right, let's synthesize the best wisdom and knowledge and information from this and make a decision. And so it took a little bit longer, maybe from start to finish. But I feel like the decision could be 10 or 100 times better. And when the quality of your decisions determines your outcome, this sort of process can be amazing. Now also, let's fast forward. Each thread that gets created is adding to the institutional knowledge of the organization in a permanent way. So now it's 10 years later and we're like, why on earth does a widget work like that?

• 35:38Speaker 00

  And what usually happens, particularly in software, is engineers come in and they say, oh, let's rewrite this, you know, and they sort of reinvent it from scratch. And then they reinvent all the same problems again and all the same bugs, because they didn't really understand why it worked the way it did before. But now there's this perfect thread, which shows the entirety of the thought process of the decision and how that decision came from. And so now, I mean, we have, now at Automattic, I feel like it's our biggest asset. More than the money in our bank, more than our software, anything is this sort of now kind of like 15 year record of every decision, every design process, everything is in these internal blogs. And it's kind of amazing what you can find there. Of course, we built a good search engine for it and everything. And you can really mine. And I think it allows

• 36:22Speaker 00

  us to now not recreate the same mistakes, particularly when, you know, in a tech company fast growing, 20, 30% of your people might be there less than a year. They might be pretty new. And so it's allows fast scaling companies to escape the groundhog effect that often happens when you're growing really quickly.

• 36:40Shane Parrish?

  And what was level five?

• 36:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, level five is Nirvana. It's somewhat unattainable, but what you always want to aspire to. So I think that we have glimpses of level five. Level five is where I believe that the organization in a distributed fashion is outperforming at every single level, productivity, quality, employee happiness, everything, any in-person organization. Because you've embraced all the power, all the special features of this asynchronous approach, and everything's better. I think if you if you kind of add up all the things we just talked about, for example, the increased autonomy and asynchronicity might allow people to design the interaction between their work and their life a lot better. By

• 37:25Speaker 00

  the way, then they're going to be happier, right? Because they have a lot more control over their day. They're able to spend their day in an environment which isn't like the lowest common denominator of fluorescent lights and a cold temperature and like terrible food and colleagues that talk on the phone too a lot, all that sort of terrible environment. Now they're in an environment which they designed, which is creatively charging for them, which is filled with things which recharge their day. Like maybe they do little mini exercises during the day, or they they kiss their kids, or they walk their dog, whatever it is. And they bring that creativity to work. Their work goes so much better. And because their work's going so much better, they're bringing that energy back to their life and family and the 18 hours outside of work.

• 38:04Shane Parrish?

  As somebody who who's super thoughtful, you always think of the drawbacks to everything. What are the drawbacks to distributed and entirely distributed workforce?

• 38:12Speaker 00

  I totally get jealous sometimes when I walk in my friends' companies and they just have these amazing offices. Not so much for the physicality of the office, although sometimes I do appreciate good design there. But just I I love my colleagues. I really enjoy spending time with them. Particularly this year, I wish I could do more. A secret sauce, a magic ingredient of our distributed approach is in normal times, we get people together three or four times a year. So if you joined automatic and say Shane, you know, as part of, you know, deciding whether to take this job offer or not, expect that you will be traveling three to four weeks per year. So you'll be away from home. So, you know, whether that means you need to find like, you know, a catsitter or someone to watch your kids or whatever, like you're going to be on the road four weeks out of the year.

• 38:57Speaker 00

  And one week, historically, we've brought the whole company together. And then the other two or three weeks, you're going to be with your team, which is typically, we have lots of cross-functional teams, typically five to 10 people. We try to have every, everything on the team that's needed to ship something to users. And so they can operate in a fairly autonomous fashion. And, uh, you know, when you're able to, as humans, I still think there's something that is impossible to recreate online, which is that breaking bread. You know, the bottle of wine I shared, whatever the equivalent of that is. It just builds trust in a way that you can get pretty close online. I think you get 85, 90% of the way, but you can't get to 100.

• 39:34Shane Parrish?

  Is there a difference in your mind between people that are switching to remote right now? You already have a relationship with people, so you don't have to develop it. Versus developing a new relationship, like as, as this goes on longer and you hire new people? What's the difference between an existing relationship that you're building upon? Or you can rely upon this established trust? And then this new relationship where now you have to, you have to break bread. You have to like establish this level of trust with somebody that you've never met before?

• 40:06Speaker 00

  Uh, you just have to work at it, you know? Know that that's an issue and say like, how am I going to invest the time to build a relationship with this person? By the way, people did it hundreds of years ago is when you'd had to send letters that would take weeks to arrive. They could build very strong relationships with folks on the other side of the ocean. We are blessed with instantaneous audio, visual, every type of technology. Like, let's say Shane, you and I were like, we want to develop our relationship, but we know we're not going to be able to physically see each other for a while. What would we do? Maybe play some games together. Maybe we'd like read a book and then discuss it together. And we'd have like a, a little 10 minutes, we talked every morning, just to kind of like talk about our day. Maybe I'd say, call me if you're going through something tough. Maybe, you know, I'd say like, hey, why don't we, I bring like my friends and family to the Zoom

• 40:51Speaker 00

  and you bring your friends and family to the Zoom. Like we all hang out. Do something virtual. I know. What would you add to that?

• 40:57Shane Parrish?

  I don't know. It's just something I've sort of been thinking about a little bit between the difference between, because I've had friends talk to me about this and they're, oh, it's really easy when I know somebody in advance, but it's, it's, it's, um, there's more friction when I don't know people, which I think is inevitable, right? There will be friction when you're developing that relationship a little bit. And you have to, you know, communicate a little bit more precisely because you might not share the same vocabulary. And there's all these byproducts to it, but it requires this investment. And that investment is really strange right now because people feel like they're working harder than ever. A lot of people, but they're not as productive as they are. So they're feeling more strained, I guess, on their, their hours.

• 41:37Shane Parrish?

  And so what's happening or what I, what I hear anecdotally anyway is like, everything is becoming, or not everything, a lot of things are becoming transactional. And that'll erode trust with people that you've already established it with. And it makes it really hard to establish trust with people if it's a very transactional relationship. So I just wonder about these investments that you should be making and your colleagues and the people that you're closest to, including, you know, wine and cheese or something, or sharing a show, or, you know, doing something that just makes it feel more, you're a part of like, cause to your point earlier, there's a human psychological desire to feel part of something larger than yourself. You're contributing to something meaningful. You're doing something.

• 42:21Shane Parrish?

  And I think that establishing that on a one-to-one basis, like we're in this together, we're contributing to this thing together. We're fighting for each other. We're in the trenches together. I think that's a really important thing to establish, especially when you think of this as maybe a marathon and not a sprint. And maybe the world doesn't go back to the way that we thought it was before. And maybe you're a lot more flexible with your work and learning to adapt now is just going to be exponentially more valuable than learning to adapt later.

• 42:48Speaker 00

  You know, if your friend were here and he were also my good friend, I would shake his shoulders and say like, wake up.

• 42:53Shane Parrish?

  Yeah.

• 42:54Speaker 00

  If you think of trust as like a function of communication times time. You know, maybe when you were in an office with someone, you got some of those things just by default and you didn't really think about it. But if you were to actually think about it and invest in it, I bet you could create an incredibly close relationship, one much more intentional and deliberate than you would just maybe cohabitating with someone by default.

• 43:16Shane Parrish?

  Totally.

• 43:16Speaker 00

  Just kind of like in relationships.

• 43:17Shane Parrish?

  Yeah.

• 43:17Speaker 00

  You can live with someone every day and not develop a relationship. And you can see someone a few times a year and then develop an incredibly deep relationship. So it's the same with with your work colleagues. So I would say like, you know, really talk and by the way, talk about that. Say like, hey, Shane, like, I feel like I'm feeling like a little more disconnected from you. Because we haven't, we haven't seen each other in a while, like, what can we do? And make it a conversation. By the way, that's also how we solve like most of our company problems. I get lots of questions like, well, what do you do if the team isn't brainstorming, you know, the way they used to? Because they don't have a whiteboard. And it's like, I don't know, well, why don't you get the team together and talk about it? And say like, hey, we used to do this thing that was really magical around the whiteboard. What are some things we can try to recreate that?

• 44:01Speaker 00

  And then just try different stuff and it's going to be different for different teams. But if you don't talk about it with everyone, you're not ever going to develop that relationship. So that communication times time, I think, is a really good formula to keep in mind.

• 44:13Shane Parrish?

  And just to add to that a little bit, one of the things that I did end up going back and saying is like, oh, my God, we do this at our events. I never even thought of this and like the context of this, we, we take complete strangers and we sort of like get to a base level of trust and how do we do it? We had that game based on the, the 35 questions to fall in love where we have these increasing like intimacy level of questions. I was like, try this with people, like create your own version of it, but sort of like have this level of conversation with people and see where it goes. And I think that was really effective. I want to go back to decision making a little bit with the, the P two program and having this distributed sort of like record of decision making, which seems awesome because you'll be able to pick out people who are consistently right and might not be as heard

• 44:58Shane Parrish?

  or recognized as right, because you'll be able, like eventually computers will be able to say, well, this person is more consistently accurate than. Perhaps that they're waiting and the decision happens. But like, how do you frame that? Is everything time box? Like you said at the start, we have 36 hours to make this decision. What are the parameters that you put along that so that it doesn't just spiral out of control? And how do you differentiate between decisions that need to be made as soon as possible? And maybe larger strategic decisions that can be as late as possible?

• 45:30Speaker 00

  I think sometimes we do this poorly, by the way. So there's definitely threads that get started, which don't have a clear goal or outcome or time limit. And they can just meander on for days or weeks. And then you come to it later, like, oh, my goodness, what is this? It's like 15, 20,000 words. How do I decipher this? I'd say that very much automatic is a written communication culture. And I believe clear writing represents clear thinking. And we filter for this in our hiring. And we talk about writing a lot. So we like invite writers and we talk about books like On Writing Well or Words That Work to like get people to be clear written communicators. Some of the things I'd recommend other companies try that we've come to. You know, let's say there's a post which is presenting an idea.

• 46:15Speaker 00

  A very common pattern is a TLDR at the top. If you're not familiar with that acronym, it's TL, semicolon, DR. And it stands for Too Long Didn't Read. And so essentially oftentimes people put like a little tweet late summary of whatever they posted at the very, very top. Actually, so some way, you know, you asked about Tumblr culture influencing us. They introduced a new acronym to this. So they'd have the TLDR, then like a chunk of text. And then they had like, it's escaping me right now. But I feel like it's like GSGM, like good stuff, give me more.

• 46:52Speaker 00

  And think of that like, almost like an appendix where that it could be like another 5,000 words. If you really want to dive deep into this, whatever the post is about, you could. But if you didn't, you know, you could just skip that section. Don't feel like you're required to read it. Another really good practice our best internal threads have. Is the time boxing, I think that's usually pretty good, but then also someone who summarizes it at the end. So again, it can be kind of intimidating to come on this really long conversation thread and hard to sort it out. So one thing I see some of the best, particularly leaders do in the company is at the very end, they'll just make a comment that summarizes everything, including the outcome. And so if I come across a really long thread, often what I'll do is scroll to the very bottom and see if there's one of those summaries,

• 47:36Speaker 00

  because that can be like that synthesis and synthesizing is incredible contribution to the institutional knowledge that's created there. And if I wanted to dive into a particular thread or mine a thread on how something was decided, I could, but I don't need to. So I think a lot about that efficiency of time. And I think one downside of synchronous communication is it's kind of one to one. So the time that it's taking to communicate the information is also what it takes to consume it. And that's kind of inefficient. On the other end of the spectrum is maybe like a book that someone took a lifetime to write and it can take you a few hours to read like, wow, that's a multiple thousands to one ratio. So that's really dense and valuable. And then probably the worst is

• 48:20Speaker 00

  like, things that take people a short amount of time to create and you a long time to consume. Maybe that's Twitter.

• 48:28Shane Parrish?

  Yeah, definitely. I mean, a lot of these hand grenades that people throw out take a lot of time to refute, but like eight seconds to like tweet out. And yeah, it's an interesting, I wouldn't imagine you'd have that as much inside the company, especially when it's visible, because there'd be like a shaming element to it as well.

• 48:46Speaker 00

  Well, that's is also one thing that the superpower of asynchronous. So, you know, we do these monthly town halls every month where anyone can ask any question and I just answer them in real time, or someone else in the company answers them in real time. You could watch that real time and it's about an hour long, but we posted recordings. So if you wanted to watch it sped up later. That hour-long meeting, you can get through in thirty minutes. So, hey, you just, you literally just created time out of nothing. And so, this is why we, we always want really good notes out of meetings. By the way, if every meeting is transparent and has really good notes or a recording, people don't feel the need to be there. And so, the meeting can be smaller, which also means it's more effective. Where it's like, you know, not everyone is like, ah, I'm not in this meeting.

• 49:29Speaker 00

  I'll have no idea what happened and like, my voice won't be heard. So, when you start to unlock all the pieces of the stuff we talked about in the five levels, one thing then like leads to a cornucopia of like, other benefits that you wouldn't have until you went through the earlier levels.

• 49:46Shane Parrish?

  How do you prevent people from sort of, or encourage them not to, I guess is probably a better way to word it, but like not getting caught up in Slack all day or reading P2 all day or catching up on all these meetings that they weren't really a part of and just sort of like acquiring all this organizational knowledge that they never put to use?

• 50:05Speaker 00

  Best ways, clear expectations. I mean, ultimately, by the way, I've had these weeks, with these weeks where like, I spent a lot of time very busy. I worked maybe sixty or eighty hours, but I didn't really get my most important things done. So, when you have clear expectations, either for yourself or for others, that is the best filter. Because at some point, you know, there's going to be that conversation like, oh, either with yourself or with someone else, like, I didn't, there's an accountability, I didn't meet the thing that was expected of this role or this job or that other people were depending on me on. And then you start to say like, well, what happened? Did I, did I play Nintendo all week? Okay, well, that's an issue. Did I work really hard but on the wrong things? That's far more common, actually.

• 50:45Speaker 00

  The problem we have actually in distributed work, so to get to another downside, is not underwork, it's overwork. So, we have developed a lot of internal systems to, we used to not track any vacation or we call AFK, away from keyboard time, because we have a completely open policy there, take what you want. But the problem was people weren't taking it. So, we started tracking it to encourage people to take it, which is kind of funny. So, we do, you know, that is a report that HR or team leads will look at. It's like, oh, you know, Shane hasn't taken a single day off in six months. First, I'm gonna have a conversation with you about why. That, by the way, this has happened a lot in pandemic. People are like, I can't go anywhere, I'm locked down. Why would I take any days off? And then like, well, you can try it anyway. Do a staycation.

• 51:29Speaker 00

  You know, just don't go in your office at all that day and do everything else. Or, you know, talk about how that recharge time, because I do believe it is important for high performance. How to build that in?

• 51:40Shane Parrish?

  How do you think about your day and organizing it to make sure that you're working on the most important things?

• 51:46Speaker 00

  I roughly think of my time in three buckets. I try to spend about a third of my time on people. So that's either hiring or internal HR. Think of this as the environment work, creating the environment for people to thrive and do the best work of their lives and their career. Spend about a third of my time, particularly right now, on product. So I'm sort of temporarily running our largest product, which is wordpress.com. And so I'm a lot more in the weeds there in terms of, you know, working with the leaders and engineers and everything to make sure that's an excellent experience. But more normally, I might float a little bit more between the different products across the company.

• 52:27Speaker 00

  And then finally, that final third, I just try to reserve for whatever is the emergency of the week.

• 52:33Shane Parrish?

  Do you think about sort of like your day the night before? Do you have blocks of time where you're guaranteed to be free? Like, how do you do that? And how much email do you get? You don't get a lot, right? P2 takes care of most of it.

• 52:46Speaker 00

  Internally, I get almost zero email. So inside the company, we basically don't use email. Maybe like some HR stuff or something you might get the email if it's truly private. But everything else happens on the blogs. I also am at a point right now where I have almost no meetings in my schedule. So kind of no regular recurring ones. Everything is a bit more opportunistic or on the fly. I would say that a lesser version of this is throughout the company. Most of our teams do have regular recurring meetings, but Automattic probably has eighty percent fewer meetings than most other companies I'm familiar with their internal workings. This is also really powerful. What happens when you have fewer meetings means if you need to have a meeting, you can do it immediately.

• 53:31Speaker 00

  It's not like sometimes I'll meet with friends at Google and like there's this like Tetris of their calendar and you're like, all right, uh, next Friday at two P M. I've got fifteen minutes or something like that. Or like, hey, let's meet at seven P M. because then I'll be done with things and they're working you in in like a crazy off time. But when everyone's calendar is open, it's kind of like, all right, let's hop on. Let's do that right now. So it increases the velocity, which you can solve the problems what you were doing the meeting to create. So that's, that's where I am right now. By the way, I'm not always like this and I'm not advocating this for everyone all the time. There are times when I was in a lot more like weekly one on ones with fifteen, twenty people a week or something like that.

• 54:15Speaker 00

  But for where we are right now, my biggest value is in taking information, synthesizing it, writing and making some very, very subtle but large changes to how the organization works that need to be planned and thought through. And so there's a lot of conversations around these and come to a conclusion. I also like to have as much reading in a day as possible.

• 54:39Shane Parrish?

  I want to come back to the reading here in a second, but what are some of those subtle changes that you're talking about that you're, you're thinking of?

• 54:46Speaker 00

  You know, this has been a year of incredible acceleration for our business because as the world economy and everything shifts online, our e-commerce business with WooCommerce, the blogging side, the site creation with WordPress.com, even usage of Tumblr grew. And so everything was up at a time when I would say our, my colleagues were, are impacted. So I feel like we were operating probably even still at like a seventy percent efficiency of what we were pre pandemic. And that is largely, you know, the, oh, it's, it's everything that you can think of. People are literally getting sick sometimes or they have loved ones that are that they need to care for. The impact on folks who care for either elderly or children.

• 55:31Speaker 00

  First, you know, it's been really disproportionate, I think, in this uh this year. And so I've seen a big, big impact for folks like four kids at home, trying to homeschool them. Like, you know, this has been really challenging. Uh, so we're not operating at our peak. Uh, what's funny is other organizations that have been switching to distributed have been talking about how they've gained fifteen or twenty percent. So my theory is that we were at like a hundred percent and we came down to seventy. They were at like fifty percent and they went up to seventy.

• 55:59Shane Parrish?

  Yeah, especially if you had kids, right? And you had elementary school children like myself sent home and it's like try working with, you know, a ten and eleven year old at home. It's good luck.

• 56:13Speaker 00

  It's uh, it's different. So uh, that has, has been a challenge. We're also though at the precipice of a, of even far more growth. So if you look at the percentage of e-commerce we have, the percentage of websites or anything like that, there's several doublings in our future. And so we need to make sure that we have the organizational structures in place uh to support that. And we've, we've shifted to the kind of this, this like digital Berkshire Hathaway. We've, you know, prioritized some longer infrastructure product uh investments. You know, sort of using the opportunity of this year to say like, hey, let's, let's do this five year investment. And really start it now and really make lots of progress on it.

• 56:54Speaker 00

  And then just in hiring, scaling our hiring and training. It's kind of my other obsession, which I know you and I have talked about before. Like if we can make our people ten percent more effective, that's the equivalent of hiring a hundred and thirty new folks. And so how can we invest? By the way, one side effect of being distributed and having the mastery autonomy purpose, we have incredible retention. So our regretted churn is something like four percent per year, three percent, three and a half percent. And so if people stay more than a year or two, they'll probably be here a very, very long time. So you have to train them like they're going to be around forever. It's that old joke, like whatever I train my people and leave and like, what if you don't and they stay?

• 57:34Speaker 00

  Like uh, we've got some examples of this, but to be completely candid, like we were a little bit. Relying on in person as a crutch. So a lot of our previous learning and training would happen when we were together in person. So we are much like many children in the world trying to learn how to do this in a distributed fashion, really, really effectively. And just invest as much as possible in coaching, one on one, and programs and concepts we like, like radical candor, and how do we get that distributed throughout the whole organization? So all of this is probably the most important thing we're doing as an organization right now.

• 58:10Shane Parrish?

  I want to talk a little bit about the differences between public and private. You just mentioned doing this five year big infrastructure investment. Is that something that you get an advantage of being a private company where you might have more scrutiny if you're a public company? How do you think about that?

• 58:25Speaker 00

  I think it's about clear communication and expectations. So we run things internally like we're a public company. And, you know, I could see a future at some point when maybe all of Automattic or maybe one of these like subsidiaries, one of these like subs could go public on its own. But I actually don't buy the thing that that public markets don't reward long term investment. And I think there's some amazing counter examples of that. Amazon perhaps being the best one, where if you clearly communicate and do what you're going to say over the long term, these long term investments can really, really pay off. And, you know, what's the thing in the short term, voting machine, long term weighing machine?

• 59:04Shane Parrish?

  Yeah, and the short term, the markets are a voting machine, but the long term, they're a weighing machine, yeah.

• 59:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, we have, as a private company, had incredible swings in valuation. So I feel like we've experienced the capriciousness of Mr. Market already internally. And to the point where literally like, you know, we turned down an investor who wants to invest at the company at a maximum of 500 million enterprise value. And like a week or two later, someone invested a $3 billion valuation. Like there's wild, wild swings that happen. That's, that's fine. You just kind of get used to it. And you say like, well, what actually matters to our business? And is that growing? And sometimes the market will understand that, sometimes it won't. Sometimes, by the way, I've been better or worse at explaining what we do. Sometimes we had the wrong people around the table talking to investors, like all those things.

• 59:50Speaker 00

  But when you get them right over the long term, I think you, you have both the access to all the capital you need and the ability to make very long term investments.

• 59:59Shane Parrish?

  You guys are like 1,200 people now, right? I think you mentioned

• 1:00:02Speaker 00

  At thirteen hundred.

• 1:00:03Shane Parrish?

  Thirteen hundred. What was the hardest phase of growth from zero to thirteen hundred? And why?

• 1:00:08Speaker 00

  Twenty to fifty.

• 1:00:09Shane Parrish?

  Why?

• 1:00:10Speaker 00

  And by the way, this is always happening. So I tried to design Automattic to be a fractal organization. So as you zoom in or out, it is self similar. And so a cross functional ten person team at Automattic looks a lot like what all of Automattic looked like when the whole company was ten people. And then as they grow, there's like a, is it my thesis? When a cell splits, like a team will get too big, then it'll split into two, and then there'll be, start to be some coordination. So when a division, and we have several of these going through this, it's kind of in that, you know, call it like twenty, thirty million dollars of revenue and going from twenty to fifty people, you, you lose that ability to brute force, the collaboration and getting everyone on the same page. And

• 1:00:53Speaker 00

  you really need to start communicating in a way which is well understood across the existing people. But also at that point, you're probably scaling pretty quickly. And so you need to be able to onboard people. So this institutional knowledge that was built up by a lot of people working closely together for many years and bring that new person in really effectively and get them to understanding. A lot of what happens at that phase is you bring in new people and you get that groundhog day thing where like the new people come in and they, they start that discussion or debate that has happened five times already. Because, you know, when you first look at wordpress.com, you say, well, ah, what if we just like made it ultra simple and only have like five buttons like

• 1:01:34Speaker 00

  Tumblr? Wouldn't that be way bigger? And you're like, okay, well, here's what happens when you do that.

• 1:01:39Shane Parrish?

  Right.

• 1:01:40Speaker 00

  And here's three times we've done that and why it worked and what we learned from it and like how we're using that to inform our next version. So there's that, that onboarding when you're scaling, it's sort of the, the boot loading of institutional knowledge. You know, if you could imagine your aspiration being like when Neo gets plugged into the matrix and he's like, I know Kung Fu. You know, you're not going to get quite there. But if you could get that in someone's first couple of weeks, I think you're ahead of ninety nine percent of companies. And particularly when you're in that sort of point when you're growing above fifty percent people wise.

• 1:02:13Shane Parrish?

  Is there a costly mistake that you've made recently or while you were growing Automattic that you think other people would benefit from knowing to avoid?

• 1:02:22Speaker 00

  So many.

• 1:02:25Shane Parrish?

  What comes to mind instantly when I say that?

• 1:02:28Speaker 00

  What comes to mind instantly? We were having a lot of essentially like people issues with the very earliest team.

• 1:02:39Speaker 00

  And we were probably twenty, twenty-five people. Some really good fights happening with folks was very, very close to. And so it felt like a personal thing. We had an offer at that time to sell the company for about two hundred million. And it was absolutely the right answer not to do it. But I was very close to, and it was partially because I was like, okay, that'll resolve these people issues. I won't have to deal with them anymore. But I was like, what is going on here? Why would I make this like life decision to sell this thing, which could be a hundred times bigger? And I believe will be because of like interpersonal conflict. And so that conflict avoidance is definitely something that particularly early on as a lead,

• 1:03:23Speaker 00

  I think led to a ton of dysfunction within the organization. Another one that came to mind was, you know, we've been very inspired. By the way, a lot of remote distributed stuff was pioneered by Basecamp at the time called Thirty Seven Signals. But they also were really into like keeping the company as small as possible. And so I really kept a sub fifty, probably two or three years longer than we should have been. And so that meant that we got really spread thin. And we under invested in things like customer service because I was trying to keep the company really small. Because in my head, I equated big with bad. I thought, you know, the larger organization gets the worse. It gets the more bureaucratic. And that was just a limiting belief I held.

• 1:04:06Speaker 00

  And I had never really truly interrogated or questioned or challenged. Why can't, when you get more amazing people in an organization, it can't actually get better? Why can't the specialization that comes or the ability to attract and retain talent? Or the ability to pay a lot more as your business scales? Why can't those things make the organization far better as you get better? And so just by kind of looking, asking the opposite and trying the opposite, was able to get the company that we have today, which, you know, I skip to work in the morning. The number one thing that motivates me is the, the quality, the care, compassion, the kindness, the intelligence of my colleagues. And I consider myself like one of the luckiest people in the world to work with the people I do. I work with a coach that I just started doing that this year.

• 1:04:50Speaker 00

  He was like, okay, I want to talk to the direct report who is your your least favorite, or something like that. There's some version of that where you want to interview the person you have the most trouble with. And I kind of looked around the virtual room. There was no one. I was like, wow. I was like so ecstatic. It was like a moment of pure joy. Because, you know, for a lot of the history of automatic, there's often been someone in that room where I was like, ah, you know, this person. And by the way, it doesn't mean it was a bad person. It often meant I was not communicating clearly with that person or setting expectations or avoiding certain things. So I found a lot of ways as I have

• 1:05:33Speaker 00

  sort of invested in self-work and just trying to get better at the work of interacting with other human beings and not just a computer all the time like I used to, the the company has benefited. And then when other people do the same work, you know, it's just like in a relationship and people invest into improving the relationship that multiplies. And I like to think that maybe not all 1300, but we've got maybe 1200 or 1250 of folks investing in improving their relationships with the folks they work with. And that's going to lead to a much better product over time, faster iteration.

• 1:06:07Shane Parrish?

  What are some of the blind spots you've uncovered working with a coach this year?

• 1:06:11Speaker 00

  How limiting my communication can be sometimes, even sometimes how I'll ask a question from a place of perfectly good intention can put the other person in like a not a victim mentality, but in like a mentality where I'm solving things for someone. Like I can play the savior role. So and it can be very, very subtle. It's like, is there anything I can do to help you versus what do you need for this to be a success? One is like putting the power with me to help you. And the other is putting the power with you to define what you need. And then I can support that. But ultimately, you have the agency, which is far more empowering. I've been learning and working on, and by the way, nonviolent communication is an amazing book, NVC, which has a terrible name, but

• 1:06:56Speaker 00

  is really valuable. That was not with this coach, but was a game changer for me a few years ago. The other is like, I feel like for most of my life, I kind of treated myself as like a brain in a jar. So like this disconnected intelligence that, you know, I'd invest a lot in exercising my brain, but not anything else, but also not really listening to my body. And so something I've been working on a lot is trying to listen to you, to whoever I'm speaking to, but also listen with awareness of what's going on throughout my whole body. And that's been kind of amazing, you know, just this idea that maybe you can name a feeling. By the way, naming feelings is also hard. I'm feeling a little anxious about going on with Shane. And I can define that because, gosh, Front of Street is like one of my favorite sites and the podcast is so good.

• 1:07:41Speaker 00

  And his other guests are so amazing. I don't know how I'm going to hold a candle to them and like, and I hope this, I hope this gets lots of listens and it's not, you know, all these sorts of things going. I can define that. But what's really interesting is like saying like, well, where do I feel that? Like, is that the pit of my stomach? Is it kind of in my throat? Is it in my chest? Is it like, where is it showing up? Are my shoulders tense? And identifying that for me has just been really, really powerful for allowing the feeling to pass through versus being kind of kinked up inside me and causing disharmony versus, I apologize for these words too, they're so inexact, but like sort of somatically experiencing and working through

• 1:08:23Speaker 00

  difficult things where before I would try to intellectualize it and like think my way through problems. I'm now trying to physically feel my way through them as well. And also listen to what my body is telling me, which often contains like maybe some unverbalizable wisdom.

• 1:08:40Shane Parrish?

  I like that a lot.

• 1:08:41Speaker 00

  Does that make any sense at all?

• 1:08:42Shane Parrish?

  Totally. I think there's, there's definitely something there. I mean, we're taught that everything should be rational, but there's a huge component of that that is like your body has this pattern recognition sometimes, like you look at somebody at the door and you instantly recognize this person has malicious intent, but when you're talking to somebody, you, you feel all these other things like stress or anxiety. And you're not going to move that relationship forward or get to really good rational solutions. If you don't sort of figure out what it is you're feeling and why you're feeling that way. And I think that we sort of. We're often taught to gloss over that and suppress it. And then when you suppress it, it keeps coming up over and over again. And I think that there's a lot to be said for just being with that feeling,

• 1:09:25Shane Parrish?

  recognizing the feeling, labeling the feeling, exploring it, exploring what's going on in your body.

• 1:09:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, staying with it.

• 1:09:31Shane Parrish?

  And staying with it instead of just tossing it away. And I think that there's a ton of value, not only to your personal happiness and sleep and sort of like heart rate, but also to the quality of thinking and decisions and relationship. Right? Like if you're trying to grow the pie with somebody, it's really hard to do that when you're feeling anxious around them. And one of the better ways to get out of that and to come up with win-win is like, why am I feeling anxious? Let's chat about this for a second.

• 1:09:59Speaker 00

  There's a quote I love from Hafiz. Fear is the cheapest room in the house. I would like to see you living in better conditions.

• 1:10:07Shane Parrish?

  Oh, I like that. This is really powerful.

• 1:10:10Speaker 00

  You can also, everyone listening to this can feel it. Like if we were to take 10 seconds and try to breathe through your belly, like where you take a breath in,

• 1:10:19Speaker 00

  and really like stick your belly out almost comically and then let it go back in, that'll instantly have an effect on you. And it's like, okay, what just happened and why? I'm not just a brain in a jar. Your whole nervous system is connected to every part of you. And yeah, that's a fascinating thing I'm starting to explore. Some of this stuff I think I avoided before because it felt a little woo woo. And I'm a very skeptical person and I like challenging things. I love the scientific method and process. But when I discover something like the harmonic series, like as a musician, like when I started learning the math of the harmonic series and where it'd show up and the history of like just versus even intonation and all these sorts of things.

• 1:10:59Speaker 00

  I was like, wow, there's an entire universe here that actually that shows up in like physical laws and so very scientific things that are just a million different places I wouldn't think of, how plants or how petals form on a flower. These things are pretty cool. And so I love kind of like maybe starting with the woo-woo mystery side and then kind of like exploring it from a more scientific basis of, you know, first principles and things that are axioms which are fully definable versus even if it started at a place that felt a little amorphous to me.

• 1:11:35Shane Parrish?

  I look forward to learning more about this from your experiences and how you grow with us. So I think that is a really interesting place to be. I want to switch gears a little bit back to just decision making a little bit. What are the patterns of people that make really good decisions? Like, what do you see in these people and how do they think about things in a way that is transferable to other people?

• 1:11:55Speaker 00

  You know, one of the best advice I got early, which was from early at Automattic, I actually hired a CEO. I consider him like a co-founder, Tony Schneider. It's like my business soulmate. And one of the things he taught me early on was make reversible decisions quickly and irreversible ones deliberately. And I still return to that on like a weekly basis. If it's a reversible decision, you know, we'll probably learn a lot more by doing it. I find it so funny, in software especially. Like, let's just build the first version and build it to throw away, maybe. But let's get that prototype out there and we could debate it for weeks or months or do a million mockups. I have this old essay, 1.0 is the loneliest number, like the oxygen of usage is required for any idea to survive.

• 1:12:39Speaker 00

  And so you want to get to that first version as fast as possible and that learning is really, really valuable. So the speed of iteration. So I like smaller reversible decisions that happen frequently, quickly, and without being too attached to them a lot. Now, you know, you all famously advocate and I point people all the time to the Decision Journal. Our internal blogging system essentially becomes that for both small and large decisions. And particularly for large decisions, we try to really gather, you know, I think Netflix calls it farming for dissent. Like, try to gather as much contrarian or challenging ideas as possible. One thing sometimes new executives struggle with when they come to Automattic is the fact that everyone, including me,

• 1:13:24Speaker 00

  might really challenge them on the things that they're doing. And, you know, I've had people say to me before, like, hey, you hire, I'm an expert. I've been really successful. Why don't you just let me do my thing? And it's like, yes, and. We should be able to defend our ideas, not just to me as the CEO, but to like the brand new, uh, the, the brand new person at the company, you know, you should, uh, oh, one of my favorite things I refer to Found Street all the time, the work required to have an opinion.

• 1:13:53Shane Parrish?

  Yeah, it's one of my favorite.

• 1:13:55Speaker 00

  You should really be able to defend your idea vigorously and even better, I want you to be able to argue the opposite even better than the person challenging you can. And unless you really understand that, you, you haven't really, and we probably are not making the decision in the most informed way. And especially if we're making the decision, it seems like everyone agrees.

• 1:14:16Shane Parrish?

  Talk to me, like, what do you think of irreversible? Like, do you actually define that literally, or is it just hard to get out of? Because a lot of people get stuck on this. You know, there's almost nothing that is literally irreversible. It's all a matter of costs. Like, you get, if you're an NBA general manager, you could trade somebody away, but you could always trade back for them. And you end up in this sort of, this circular argument about thinking about decisions. How do you, how do you think about that?

• 1:14:44Speaker 00

  It's true that probably almost everything is reversible, but some of them, the cost is so high that it's unattainable. I'll start naming things.

• 1:14:54Speaker 00

  Are things actually people think is reversible that are actually far harder to reverse, especially when you're successful? Taking an investor on, so who you choose to partner with. It might be reversible, but it might blow up on the way out. So it might actually be existential. So fundraising, acquisitions, both on both sides of the table are very, very hard to unwind and sometimes existential. You know, not totally reversible, but you know, something you wanted deliberately is, particularly executive hires, because an executive needs six to 12 months to ramp up. So, and then, you know, kind of a year to do their thing. So if you make the wrong hire there, you kind of lost two years, um, the system.

• 1:15:35Speaker 00

  So there's a lot of these that I think are worth approaching deliberately, or just having a few turns on, like writing. There's almost no writing that didn't get better from some amount of editing. I'm sure there's a diminishing margin of return at some point, but, um, you, you know this as a very crisp writer, like, how often is that first draft like the best thing you've ever written?

• 1:15:56Shane Parrish?

  Oh, God, never.

• 1:15:59Speaker 00

  And the idea that it is, or should be, is keep so many people with amazing thoughts from writing more. Because they're like, oh, my first draft is terrible. I'm trying to get it out. Well, congratulations. You are now like every great writer in history. And it's really about that that process that happens after that first draft, which is where the magic is.

• 1:16:18Shane Parrish?

  Talk to me a little bit about mental models and the mental models you use most commonly when you're making decisions for yourself or for Automattic.

• 1:16:26Speaker 00

  I think I'm struggling with this one because I'm such a fanboy.

• 1:16:29Shane Parrish?

  Well, I mean, this is worth pointing out, right? Like, so our physical books, the Great Mental Model series, are a direct result of you and your support of what we're doing. I mean, they wouldn't be possible, the physical copies wouldn't be possible without you and Automattic. So, thank you.

• 1:16:45Speaker 00

  That's very kind. Although I believe, I believe someone would have sponsored it if we didn't. But yeah, I was falling over myself to do so. By the way, if you, if you haven't got the physical book, I encourage people to do it because it's gorgeous. The mental models, I think that, you know, we all operate on pattern recognition. And most of these patterns are subconscious. And there's been great books written on this, like Thinking Fast and Slow, all of Dan Ariely's work around behavioral economics, all the great conversations that have happened this year around bias, conscious and subconscious, like, these are just patterns that we have. And I think far too often do we truly invest in creating deliberate patterns. Ones that have, don't just happen by accident, but that

• 1:17:26Speaker 00

  we truly challenge and choose to adopt in our life and actually practice, much like an athlete would practice a certain move, or a musician would practice a scale. These can become the sort of raw technique of, I think, operating, particularly under pressure, under duress, or in high, you know, time-sensitive situations. When you can fall back to this training, to these mental models, it is really, really powerful. And that, you know, as John Mariner says, the latticework that that creates. I actually love thinking about it in musical terms. You know, there's 12 notes in the Western scale, there's a million scales between them. I mean, not literally a million, but there's all these combinations. But I play jazz. And so it's all about improvisation. If you put someone who doesn't know all of

• 1:18:08Speaker 00

  the underlying technique and theory and just say improvise, it's not going to be great. Right? Because they, you need to know the rules to break them. And maybe that's a mental model.

• 1:18:19Shane Parrish?

  Well, there's a saying, the young man knows the rules, the old man knows the exceptions.

• 1:18:24Speaker 00

  I like that. I inherited a lot of these from music, actually. So before I started consciously thinking and discovered, probably through your blog, like Charlie Munger and all those things, that the rules of music and learning music and deliberate practice and performing and breathing and all these sorts of things I got from being a saxophone player, I think were a huge, huge benefit for me. Just being like, I was fundamentally an engineer. I was like a coder, but I could get in front of a room and talk to people. And so it's like leading a band. I could off the cuff, you know, respond to things and like, sort of like improvisation. I knew that the best things are created in a team.

• 1:19:06Speaker 00

  And so even though a lot of my early days were, it was more that solo coding and, you know, crazy 12-hour days with pizza and Mountain Dew and like all those things, like it was always trying to get other people involved, too. It was actually funny. Remember we talked about the multiple evolutionary branches that came off of B2?

• 1:19:25Shane Parrish?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:25Speaker 00

  WordPress was one of them. One of the things that happened was I actually reached out to the people who started all the other branches, said, hey, if we work together, I bet we could create something better than if we were each, you know, recreating the wheel on our own. And I think out of the five branches, like four of them joined up with WordPress.

• 1:19:40Shane Parrish?

  Oh, that's awesome.

• 1:19:41Speaker 00

  And so the leaders of those other things merged because they had done really cool stuff. Like one of them was called B2++ and it created a multi-site version of WordPress. So where you could run like multiple instances on the one codebase. That then got merged into WordPress, became WordPress multi-site. And then that became wordpress.com, which allows us to host hundreds of millions of sites on the same codebase, same databases, in a super scalable way where each incremental site only costs us like a penny per year. So that was part of that beauty of like taking these multiple evolutionary branches and being able to adopt the best from different ones. So idea meritocracy, probably, I think, probably got that from Ray Dalio and principles. Just if you dig into a lot of the most successful people, they often have their rulebook.

• 1:20:23Speaker 00

  And I love it as well when they say like, this rulebook doesn't need to be your rulebook or guidelines. And so I'm always hesitant about that to be too prescriptive. It's actually one of my mental blockers around writing a book because everything I've just said, I hope that five years from now, I'm like, ah, we figured out a much, much better way to do it. I hope you do follow up to some of these conversations like five or 10 years down the road where you can kind of revisit some of the ideas and see what changed because to me that delta is actually pretty, pretty interesting. We're talking about a snapshot, a moment of time of what I believe is the best practices and the best things. But if I'm still growing, hopefully I discover far better methods or better ways of approaching almost everything we've talked about.

• 1:21:06Shane Parrish?

  Well, let's book it now. We'll, we'll follow up on this for sure and come back to it. And one of the things I love about you is that you're, you're not only one of the kindest and most thoughtful people I know, but you're always trying to grow the pie with other people and you're always trying to make something larger through going with other people instead of just going really fast on your own. And I think that's a really unique attribute for you. Yeah, I think it's awesome.

• 1:21:31Speaker 00

  Thank you. I would also say that's why everyone should explore open source. Open source is a hack that gets competitors to work together. And when you think of, you read sapiens, what, what made humans who were weaker, slower, et cetera, out compete from an evolutionary point of view, all the other animals? And it was working together. It was story. It was collaboration. And I believe all proprietary software to be an evolutionary dead end. Maybe it'll take 50 or a hundred years. But what happens, just like what happened fairly quickly with like Encyclopedia Britannica and other encyclopedias and Wikipedia, is that the thing which is open to all and gets everyone working together, if it truly gets that sort of like humanity working together on the same shared resource,

• 1:22:14Speaker 00

  you get the opposite of the tragedy of the commons versus like the, the field being overrun, each person operating in their own self-interest sort of kills the environment or kills the shared thing. You get each person operating in their own self-interest makes the shared thing better and better. And in digital world, we can do that because we have economists, economics of abundance versus economics of scarcity. And opens, that's why open source will eventually win every market it's in. It's, you know, there were lots of Competitors to WordPress in the blogging and CMS space, which essentially bet on, you know, if we make all the money and have all the revenue and everything, we'll be able to create something better than this unprofessional group of volunteers working in their spare time. And they really have lost that bet over the past 17 years.

• 1:22:58Speaker 00

  It's happening with e-commerce now. And I believe it's going to happen with every area that open source. When there's a really great project in, a project which is truly inclusive, responsive, evolves and has the economic incentives in line for collaboration versus balkanization.

• 1:23:14Shane Parrish?

  I think that's a great place to end this conversation. Together, we go a lot farther than we go alone. Matt, thank you so much for such a wonderful conversation.

• 1:23:22Speaker 00

  Thank you, Shane.

• 1:23:27Shane Parrish?

  Hey, one more thing before we say goodbye. The Knowledge Project is produced by the team at Front Street. I want to make this the best podcast you listen to, and I'd love to get your feedback. If you have comments, ideas for future shows or topics, or just feedback in general, you can email me at [email protected] or follow me on Twitter at Shane A. Parrish. You can learn more about the show and find past episodes at fs.blog/podcast. If you want a transcript of this episode, go to fs.blog/podcast.