#103 Loch Kelly: Effortless Mindfulness

Loch Kelly is an author, meditation teacher, psychotherapist, and founder of the Open-Hearted Awareness Institute. Shane and Loch do a deep dive into mindfulness, consciousness, how to not let your emotions take over, ways to access your hidden awareness, debugging your mind and so much more. -- Want even more? Members get early access, hand-edited transcripts, member-only episodes, and so much more. Learn more here: https://fs.blog/membership/ Every Sunday our Brain Food newsletter shares timeless insights and ideas that you can use at work and home. Add it to your inbox: https://fs.blog/newsletter/ Follow Shane on Twitter at: https://twitter.com/ShaneAParrish Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  So I felt kind of spacious and embodied, kind of in this timeless here, almost like a cat. So I said, okay, let me do this when I play sports. And so the next time I went and played goalie, I said, okay, here we go. And I intentionally did this way of getting into the flow or zone. And then I was, you know, felt more capable and more like everything was enjoyable. I was interconnected with everything. Somebody would take a slapshot from the blue line and then all of a sudden I'd see it for the first five yards and then

• 0:42Speaker 00

  it would get lost in legs and sticks. And then my hand would go out and the puck would be in there. And I'd be like, oh, cool.

• 1:05Shane Parrish?

  Welcome to The Knowledge Project. This is Shane Parrish. This podcast and our website, fs.blog, help sharpen your mind by mastering the best of what other people have already figured out. If you're hearing this, you're not currently a supporting member. If you'd like early access to the podcast, ad-free episodes, transcripts, and other subscriber-only content, you can join at fs.blog/podcast. Check out the show notes for a link. My guest today is Locke Kelly, author, meditation teacher, founder of the Open Hearted Awareness Institute, and so much more. In many ways, life is full of change and uncertainty, and we're all doing the best we can. And yet, most of us can't help but feel there's more, a deeper connection, some wisdom that just seems to elude us, or something just out

• 1:46Shane Parrish?

  of reach. So we explore debugging our thoughts, and we get lost in thinking. In this conversation, we transcend that. You'll walk away with practical tools like how not to let your emotions take over, and quick ways to access your hidden awareness, but also a better appreciation for debugging your mind and effortless mindfulness. It's time to listen and learn.

• 2:15Shane Parrish?

  Locke, how are you, man?

• 2:17Speaker 00

  Good, Shane. I'm so glad to be here. This should be fun.

• 2:20Shane Parrish?

  It should be. I must say, I've probably never spent so much time researching a podcast before, and I'm a little bit intimidated to start asking questions.

• 2:29Speaker 00

  That's pretty funny for somebody like you to be intimidated. I think it's just new, right?

• 2:35Shane Parrish?

  Yeah, I want to get into the vocabulary, but before we sort of get there, and I think that'll help orient the conversation a little bit. What early experiences got you interested in mindfulness?

• 2:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, this initial experience may help people kind of get on board with a little bit about what this kind of effortless mindfulness is about, which actually isn't traditional mindfulness. It's a little more like what people talk about, flow consciousness or being in the zone. So probably as I look back, one of my first experiences was living outside of New York City and playing a lot of different sports. I was playing ice hockey goalie and I was watching a football game on TV. And the announcer said about the quarterback, "He's got eyes in the back of his head."

• 3:29Speaker 00

  And I thought, "Oh, I know what that is like." It doesn't mean you can actually see back there, but you have this kind of peripheral awareness that isn't just visual, it isn't just sensing or informational. "Let me see if I can do that." And I literally started playing with my own consciousness and awareness. And I ended up finding a way to open my awareness around to the sides and my peripheral vision followed. And then I kind of let this awareness move to the sides where sound's coming going. And then somehow, in kind of like, "I'm not sure what I'm doing",

• 4:09Speaker 00

  but the awareness continued around in this kind of 360-degree panoramic feeling that then just dropped me into my body. So I felt kind of spacious and embodied, kind of in this timeless here, almost like a cat. So I said, "Okay, let me do this when I play sports." And so the next time I... Went and played goalie. I said, okay, here we go. And I intentionally did this way of getting into the flow or zone. And then I was, you know, felt more capable and more like everything was enjoyable.

• 4:50Speaker 00

  I was interconnected with everything. Somebody would take a slapshot from the blue line and then all of a sudden I'd see it for the first five yards and then it would get lost in legs and sticks and then my hand would go out and the puck would be in there. And I'd be like, oh, cool.

• 5:11Speaker 00

  So then the second part of the story is, I was telling one of my friends after one of these games, he said, wow, man, that was so cool. You played so great. How did you do it? And I actually just went through what I just explained to you. And he kind of looked at me with his jaw dropped and went, oh, cool. And then walked away. Because it was like, what are you talking about? I have no idea what you're talking about. And then, but one of the seniors on the team, I was like a sophomore, the next week came and just threw me this book, said, here, kid, read this. And it was Zen and the Art of Archery. I picked it up. So it was kind of a Zen explanation through kind of sport

• 5:54Speaker 00

  that led to the sense that, you know, you and the target are connected and a little bit how to do it a little differently. But it led me to say, oh, my God, there's people who do this and value this and are interested in this. And I think I'm going to check it out. So I started my interest in finding out what this was all about.

• 6:21Shane Parrish?

  And then how did you explore that interest?

• 6:24Speaker 00

  Yeah. So then I would do more reading of different books at that time that weren't a lot. And that's one of the amazing things today, that a lot of these wisdom texts are just in the last really 20 years have become available. And I've continued to kind of update my reading. But then I did, you know, some sitting I studied with a guy, a Zen teacher, Philip Kaplu, who wrote the Three Pillars of Zen. Then I did some TM. And then I kind of started just mixing.

• 7:01Speaker 00

  The principles of meditation with my own consciousness, with psychology, with neuroscience, with, so I never was like a true believer or going into the religious part of it, but I felt like from the beginning, it was this natural part of human experience that was a potential. And so I would, you know, try to find anybody talking about it, you know, someone like Abraham Maslow was talking about peak experiences and, you know, different, oh, that's cool. That's, that's, that's similar, but different. Then I'd always do this kind of, well, that's similar. They've got that, but they're, how do they get from

• 7:45Speaker 00

  here to there? And so it's kind of a, almost like this scientific approach or curiosity, but always like then learning, how do you do it? How do you do that? And so I, you know, just continued through, through college and then in graduate school, I actually went and studied psychology and spirituality and did two master's degrees and went over to Sri Lanka, India and Nepal and met some of these teachers. And, you know, would put my hand up and ask these questions that they'd look at me like, you can't ask that question. It's like, how

• 8:27Speaker 00

  do you do this? What is this? Well, how is it different than this? And so it just started to become, you know, going more into depth, you know, through practicing and doing it experientially.

• 8:41Shane Parrish?

  I think the best place to start this is sort of to dive into some of the vocabulary around this, because that's where I think people get into a lot of trouble, and myself included, which is.

• 8:53Shane Parrish?

  Let's just start by defining some basic terms. What is consciousness?

• 8:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, so I'll, I'll, I'll play with, you know, again, it's almost like there's, there are these words that are used in common culture and then they're used in psychology, academic psychology, then they're used in psychotherapy, then they're, the translators from Tibetan Buddhism or Pali Buddhism translate words and start using similar words. So, so it's a quite a bit of a variety. And I've kind of taken them and defined them in a way that's about usefulness, or sometimes I call

• 9:36Speaker 00

  it the power of how, rather than how do I, how do you do this? So I would start with a definition of kind of different types of awareness. And, you know, start with what we know as attention. So attention is like a one pointed attention using your frontal lobe of your brain, bring your attention to your breath, and then move to step up to mindful awareness, which is kind of the ability to not look from thought, but look at thought. And the great revelation of the first

• 10:18Speaker 00

  kind of insight of mindfulness is, oh, I'm not my thoughts. Oh, my thoughts, even when they start with, I am thinking this thought are coming and going, and there's some awareness that's observing it.

• 10:33Shane Parrish?

  So mindful awareness is like debugging your brain almost. You're watching the instructions go by, you're aware of what's happening and you see it.

• 10:41Speaker 00

  Yes. And so, you know, that, that really, you know, challenges what we've taken for granted. I think, therefore I am. So here's the am, the awareness that is watching thought come and go and is actually, as we start looking at that awareness, that's where effortless mindfulness starts. So in deliberate mindfulness or traditional mindfulness, you step up and look at the contents. Oh, I'm not my thoughts. And then in effortless mindfulness, which is kind of the next stage, which is what I share with people, say, now let's look back at what's aware. Where is it aware from? Who's aware?

• 11:24Speaker 00

  And then you realize there's an alert awareness that's not made of thought, looking to thought, that's aware of thought. It's a kind of a contentless awareness. It's conscious, meaning, using the word conscious to mean it is alert and conscious of the room and conscious of, but it's conscious from not a thinker. It's conscious from what I eventually call awake awareness, which is kind of a pure contentless, timeless awareness that then, as that awareness comes into relationship,

• 12:06Speaker 00

  almost like the quantum field arising as waves and particles, it arrives into hearing consciousness and thinking consciousness as aspects of it, or kind of like an ocean of awareness arising as experience. And then getting, you can get caught back in a thinker or a judger or a sad part of you that you then identify with and take to be you. But the usefulness of, you know, separating out awareness that's alert and clear and not orienting consciously to thought.

• 12:48Speaker 00

  And then opening it up. So is is what happens to people naturally when they're in a flow state, which is kind of the optimally functioning way that musicians, athletes, people at work, scientists operate, but they only can find it during the activity they're good at.

• 13:10Shane Parrish?

  And so when you're in a flow state, is that sort of effortless mindfulness?

• 13:16Speaker 00

  When they talk about flow state, I distinguish two kinds of flow state. One's an absorbed flow state, where you're so interested in an activity and you're focused, one pointed attention and you're kind of go into it and then time, you look up and an hour's gone by. So you kind of enter that world and everything else is gone. And they call that a flow state, but that's not as interesting to me as what I call a panoramic flow state, which is when, similar to that initial exercise of opening your awareness around and feeling embodied. You're in the world, connected to everybody and everything.

• 14:00Speaker 00

  You're aware of being able to do kind of optimal functioning of complex tasks without thinking about thinking. And then you feel in the now, you feel selfless, a kind of sense of joy or well being or ecstasy. Your implicit memory is your thinking, so you know how to do whatever you're doing. And you're just operating from an awake awareness consciousness that's organizing your thought in a way that's effortlessly mindful.

• 14:40Shane Parrish?

  And is this sort of available to all people? Or is this something that only a select few can have access to?

• 14:47Speaker 00

  I mean, that's my, that's, that was my question. So it's a great question. You know, I heard these different answers. No, it's all you have to go through. If you go to any of the, you know, the religious institutions that teach us, no, you have to do it my way, you know, is usually the response, like Zen or Tibetan Buddhism or. Theravada insight meditation. Well, you have to go through training or join a monastery or become an Olympic athlete of meditation, or spend 30,000 hours. And yet, there's always these what called direct path traditions that say,

• 15:27Speaker 00

  this consciousness, this awareness-based flow is already installed. And it's available to each of us, as each of us. And we just, it's like a figure ground shift. So there's like, it's in the background, in the foreground is organizing around thinking parts and judging parts and emotional parts that are in like a little cloud of our mind. And if we just, literally, this is kind of one of the pointers and actually a little experience that you can have if you feel like you're trying to figure out your life in this cloud, either of your head or your body.

• 16:11Speaker 00

  And then you just shift out of that cloud and become aware of the sky or the space. And then you just curiously wonder whether you're aware from that open mind and that open heart. And then feel like you include what's in the cloud. So you're spacious and pervasive in a way that's calm and alert. Then there's this possibility to, to begin to optimally function from there.

• 16:44Shane Parrish?

  And so we can flip this on almost on demand. That's what you're, we're going to get into glimpses a little bit later and maybe walk people through some of that. What is the most common reason people do this?

• 16:57Speaker 00

  So, I mean, the, the amazing thing is, you know, the history of this is, this is, you know, perhaps the most valued developmental stage of, of human beings throughout history and throughout cultures, you know, what's called awakening or enlightenment or a sense of full, being able to be fully human and particularly to relieve suffering. So that's the first half of it is. This access to this greater capacity, this felt sense, open mind, open heart dimension, that's awareness-based and embodied,

• 17:39Speaker 00

  has the capacity and the space to be with and to see thoughts, feelings, sensations, and parts of us that are anxious, sad. So we end up feeling, you know, I am sad or I am angry. And then you step into this, you realize, oh, there's a part of me that's sad. Oh, there's a part of me that's angry. Who's aware of those two parts? And then you realize the parts are smaller. But those, if we're operating from kind of an ego center, emotions are bigger than the ego center. So it's really upgrading

• 18:22Speaker 00

  the operating system from a small sense of self to this transitional selflessness or no self. But then the key is, in this particular method, is not just deconstructing and waiting after you let go of or realize there isn't a self in the middle of your head that's you, but literally letting the awareness discover an already awake consciousness that's installed, that's able to relieve suffering. And it also has kind of embodied positive qualities that people will report.

• 19:02Speaker 00

  Like if I just walk into a room and say, okay, check this out. And I just start with a glimpse. Okay, do the, you know, just try this, try that, try this. What's here? People go, love, peace, relief, joy.

• 19:18Speaker 00

  Freedom. And I'm like, how long did that take? You know, and what is, what is it you've been looking for in your life the whole time? And could it really be like this far away? So then, then the practices are these glimpses. So, you know, it's not instant enlightenment, but it's not long periods of sitting still. That actually, because of the flow kind of research and consciousness, it's just as easy with these glimpses to do them with your eyes open, moving, as it is with your eyes closed, sitting. And you could start either one, but you can begin to familiarize yourself with this

• 20:03Speaker 00

  installed operating system. And then, like a developmental stage, it just takes like, you know, like a developmental stage from preschool to learning to read and write. So it just takes a little, small glimpses many times. And then you develop and all of a sudden you can read. You just pick up a book and you can read. Just walk out the door and you're living from this open-hearted, awake consciousness and you're responding rather than reacting.

• 20:34Shane Parrish?

  I want to come back to something you said earlier about ego. What is ego and what does it mean to be ego-centered? Like when you said egocentric view, what does that mean?

• 20:45Speaker 00

  Yeah. So again, here we go with these

• 20:49Speaker 00

  multi-defined terms, right? From 15 wise traditions and people. Ego is this, ego is that, small self is this, self is this, you know? So it's, it's a fascinating play. And where I am now is that, is that ego is kind of a function and kind of managing parts of us. So there isn't one ego. There's a number of these parts of us. Like if you were to have one part of you say, well, I'm going to do it this way. And then another part of you would say, well, do you sure you have to do it that way? You know, is one of them your ego?

• 21:32Speaker 00

  Or are they two parts of this kind of managing system or identified?

• 21:40Speaker 00

  So in terms of psychology, many of the current psychological psychotherapy healing models that seem to work are these parts-based systems. So rather than saying you're just, you know, you need to get yourself together and become strong and healthy and competent, you realize, oh, there's parts of me. There's a sad part, there's an angry part, there's a hurt part, there's a judging part, there's a... And who... And then the key is who's aware of those parts? And that first step is kind of basic mindfulness. And then the next step is this spacious and pervasive, open-hearted awareness from effortless

• 22:25Speaker 00

  mindfulness. And then you realize, well, what has been called ego doesn't need to be killed or fought or gotten rid of, or it's not who... The little ego doesn't grow up to be the awakened sense of self either. So it's a kind of a personality part, a functional part that has an opinion. And usually it forms around thoughts, feelings, sensations, and views. So by stepping out, you can also see that many people are caught in this kind of like, especially when they're very smart, like, well, this is the way it is, and I'm just going to do it this way, and that's the way it's worked for me, and I'm just going to keep doing it this way. And then, you know, and that can be seen.

• 23:10Speaker 00

  So what was the observer becomes observed and then can be dialogued with or seen as one perspective. So the ego is a function of the human psyche, consciousness. And the key is, it's not the center. It's one of the organizing principles of your body, kind of like your blood system is organizing of your body. The... It's not the driver of the car, and it doesn't need to be the driver. And once you kind of... Dialogue with it and let it know that literally the ego or these ego managers that are

• 23:53Speaker 00

  kind of this round table of of this committee usually rather than one will go like, oh, good, we can take a vacation. Oh, we can be part of the team. Oh, good. We don't have to like, be anxious and feel worthless and not feel like we can't do everything perfectly. No, you don't. You never did. And then there's this kind of dimension of being that becomes primary that can be with your whole personality in in a way that's so freeing and loving and and optimally functional. So it's not, it doesn't lead you to join a monastery or sit on a couch.

• 24:37Speaker 00

  It actually brings forth this creativity and joy and interest.

• 24:43Shane Parrish?

  So often we're taught to suppress those feelings or avoid them, the anxiety, the stress, the with distractions, we sort of like seek happiness outside of ourselves. Can you expand on that?

• 24:56Speaker 00

  Yeah. So I mean, a couple of the ways of dealing with them are, you know, from a strong ego, if you develop a strong ego and many smart people who are good at life can for a while, develop ego strengths and ego defenses and kind of chug along and become successful. But usually they'll hit a wall at some point, whether it's in another area like a relationship or become over like get the motor running too fast. It's almost seeing it in the frame of that there's a developmental stage. So there's different ways of thinking about it, but there's

• 25:37Speaker 00

  children or babies are talked about having primary process thinking. And then the next stage is you develop secondary process thinking, which is conceptual thinking, comparing, contrasting. And then we stop there with the ego function and the smart parts of us.

• 25:57Speaker 00

  And so this is, you know, the tertiary or the third level of both knowing and identity that what has the capacity to bear what seem to be unbearable and wants to do it and can do it, and that this no small ego can live a fully intimate, happy life. Because it will always be dualistically comparing, contrasting, striving, feeling not good enough, or can get into a kind of a role like I'm doing well, I'm positive thinking. But there's a feeling of being that we've all felt when we're relaxed and at ease.

• 26:42Speaker 00

  And what if that wasn't related to the conditions like, oh, I'm on vacation. Oh, I'm climbed up this, you know, beautiful hill with my friends and now I'm at the top and I'm looking over this beautiful space and this view and I'm feeling that I can let go of seeking and be connected to nature and people and this sense of well being and freedom. And then you go back to work and say, oh, my God, I don't have a vacation for six months to be able to go back to that place because that's where it is. So what if that were actually just a background foreground shift that was done through external

• 27:26Speaker 00

  events, people, place and things? What if it didn't have to do with people, place and things that that same sense of well being was our central nature in this next phase of development?

• 27:40Shane Parrish?

  So maybe walk me through what that looks like. Like if I, if I come to you and I'm, maybe let's do some common scenarios, right? Like I'm, I'm anxious, I'm feeling super anxious. What, what would you advise me to do?

• 27:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, so there's, there's two, two approaches. One is, um, one is the, the basic training. So I have, you know, kind of a bunch of hats that, you know, I'm interested in.

• 28:09Speaker 00

  As a psychotherapist, kind of a awakening teacher or meditation teacher, neuroscience, bringing in neuroscience and from the meditation awakening, it's really about, okay, let's not deal with the symptom. Let's train you over time to not focus on what's arising, but who or what is it arising to? That's, that's the key. We're not going to focus on changing your thoughts or trying to mitigate primarily. I mean, you would always start with things that, you know, are basic calming and soothing practices.

• 28:49Speaker 00

  So there's ways to just, you know, I work with kind of a simple set of practices where you do kind of a three-part breath and then breathe out a little slower. And what that does is it addresses the autonomic nervous system and your polyvagal nerves. And it also gives you one pointed attention and it oxygenates your system. You know, so there's certain preparations to get you out of that initial anxiety, but primarily it's finding that which is already here that isn't anxious. And then as that, go back and check out what that part of you

• 29:34Speaker 00

  that's anxious is worried about. So it's upgrading. And then, you know, there's a psychotherapy version of that that I could go through as well, which is starting, starting with the, the anxiety and locating it, physicalizing it and saying, where in or around your body are you anxious? And then rather than saying, what are you anxious about? Cause some people are like, I don't know. I think it's maybe this, maybe that, maybe this. Soothing, calming the body, nervous system, chattering mind, relax. Then finding this, so someone might say their throat. I'm anxious, where do you feel it? It's in my throat, right here.

• 30:19Speaker 00

  What's its shape, size, color? What is it communicating to you? So you really like give it a voice, give it a felt sense, a location. Cause you're developing it as a part of you and noticing, oh, it's, somebody might say the cortisol and adrenaline is running through their whole body. So, well, my whole body's anxious. And you could find a center of that, or sometimes I'll use the whole body. Okay. So is it, is it outside your body? No, I guess it's not. So, okay, so then your body is a part of you. Can you ask that part to give you some space? And then can you open into that space and be aware of that part from this?

• 31:04Speaker 00

  And then how do you feel toward that part from this more spacious, awake consciousness? Not from just your head, but from kind of an open-heartedness. And then if I say, who, who's aware of that part? People will often say, well, I am. What do you mean, I? You mean the ego? No, like the real me, like, like the me, like the me that I knew when I was four, you know, like, like, or when I'm me, really me or something. So that feeling of being is here. We've all tasted it. So that, starting with that, feeling that, and then feeling like, oh, there's a part of me that's anxious. I'm with it.

• 31:49Speaker 00

  Is there anything that needs to be known? So then the, you know, the in, in, intelligence can then be specific. You know, oh, I'm afraid of. What might happen with the situation at work? Okay, so then you're, then you start working with it, both in terms of intelligence and flow and kind of open-hearted presence. And it starts to be part of this bigger team that has some help, rather than one part that's anxious and the other part that says, don't be so anxious. Another part says, well, I'll tell you how not to be anxious. Just be positive. Another part that says, well, you know, um, you know, you have a right to be anxious.

• 32:32Speaker 00

  Let's, you know, prepare by staying up all night and writing the report. You know, it's like all those parts from this bigger no self self or open-hearted awareness or awake consciousness, whichever you want to call that. But you'll feel it. You feel that is, is not a part of you. It's this conscious, you know, some people call it consciousness itself. It isn't a new location, even when it's called self with a big S. It feels like me, but it's also, if you look at it, it's like, is there a location? No, it's everywhere, nowhere and here.

• 33:16Speaker 00

  And that's the, but that feels safe because you're interconnected. And kind of there's a new ground feeling that isn't in thought and it isn't just in your body.

• 33:30Shane Parrish?

  So it sounds like the levels to sort of exploring that are, you know, the first level is recognizing that it's happening. Most of us sort of suppress at that level, I would imagine. The second one is this sort of like effortful brain debugging, where you're sort of like exploring it a little bit and you're reasoning with yourself and thinking through the problem in a very logical, structural manner. And then the third sort of level, if I'm understanding correctly, is more of a, you're letting all of that go and you're, you're trying to see everything almost as a 3D hologram, if you will, and, and feel everything at once. And by doing that, it becomes something that you can explore without consciously exploring it?

• 34:14Speaker 00

  I mean, the, the thing about kind, it's almost like a. It's another level of knowing. It's like that that paradox makes sense in some ways because it kind of feels like that when you say that consciously without consciously like consciously without words or consciously without concepts like it's it's almost more it's not it's not intuition. It's almost something, you know, different than intuition. Everyone's experienced it, but it's not on any map in the West. That's why the language is so hard. But those kind of paradoxes are almost show that that's, yeah, that's right. You're in the right territory consciously, but not conceptually or something.

• 34:57Speaker 00

  Okay, so I would say maybe if I were to put a third one there that you're saying I'd make that more a mindful awareness. So from mindfully mindfulness based psychotherapy or mindfulness based insight, you've kind of established this mindful witness and now you realize, oh, that's a thought, a feeling, sensation, it's coming and going, it's not me. But you're still in a detached, disembodied witness position. So what effortless mindfulness does is actually opens up and looks through the meditator, who's behind the camera of the the looker who's detached and mindfully witnessing so

• 35:38Speaker 00

  that we don't get caught in what I call the mind, the witness protection program. So then it opened to what seems to feel like a kind of awareness that's always already been aware without our help. So that's kind of this move that you're like, what? Wait a minute. It's like, there's kind of a effortless, and that's what the word effortless is pointing to. It's like, it seems like, oh, behind all this, without concentrating and trying, there's a kind of a natural alertness that has a softness and a wisdom to it that is.

• 36:20Speaker 00

  Already aware, and when the awareness rests into that, it actually isn't spaced out. It actually is interconnected and arises like a quantum field as thoughts, feelings and sensations in a, in a kind of embracing connection rather than detached. So it's with the part that's anxious and it's open and bigger. It hasn't created a new thinker, but it's like, and it's not just a emotional heart presence, it's what's called heart mind.

• 36:59Speaker 00

  So it has this intelligence available if needed, if there's a specific, but it's also kind of resting as this. I mean, I think what I'm emphasizing here is this interconnected feeling of rather than detached witness.

• 37:17Shane Parrish?

  It sounds like that would work for stress as well. Right. Especially in a highly changing or uncertain environment.

• 37:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, soon as you, I mean, the main thing is what you're doing is you're realizing, okay, there's this other operating system that I've been trying to work just with the interface here of the computer programs. But there's a, a whole nother new operating system that it has a greater intelligence capacity and soothing, loving, and it isn't in its essential nature. It's never been anxious. It's not afraid. It's got non-fear, non-worry and non-shame in its essential nature.

• 38:08Speaker 00

  And then it comes into and arises as thoughts, feelings, sensations. So it can be with worry, shame or fear from non-shame, non-fear.

• 38:21Speaker 00

  So, and it's so much bigger. It's like a deep ocean that's with these waves of anxiety. But in being the ocean and the sky, it's like, all right, so what's up? You know, it's kind of like, that's, you know, stuff happens, you know? And I'm living a human life, so I guess that's gonna happen, so.

• 38:43Shane Parrish?

  So to continue, continue the operating system sort of theme, I guess. How do we create an interrupt in the moment? Like, somebody cuts us off and we're driving and we instantly get hijacked. Like, our brains, there's some biological hierarchy thing going on and we lose control. What can we do in those moments to make better decisions and ground ourselves?

• 39:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, so now we're gonna get into maybe a little of, of the unique glimpsing method, which you learn ahead of time. And then, you know, once you've learned it, and it, you know, takes, interestingly, the same amount of time, having taught deliberate mindfulness or basic mindfulness, the same amount of time to learn this glimpsing practice or effortless mindfulness as it does deliberate mindfulness. But it is a unique way of finding the identification with the thinker or the worrier or the part of us that's in fight or flight or freeze.

• 39:48Speaker 00

  And then unhooking the awareness and either having it drop from head to heart space and then open up and include, or move from thinking to seeing to hearing to open effortless awareness that's inclusive and operating from a bigger, a bigger field of consciousness. That method, it, you know, once you learn it, I'm, you know, I'm doing like a...

• 40:21Speaker 00

  A four month course where now I'm meeting with longtime students who meet every other week with me and then they have their own support groups in between. They're teaching each other and you know, the reports they're making are, you know, that they're stabilizing this. So they learn the basics of glimpsing, which is not like much else that there is in the world. So that's the unique thing.

• 40:48Shane Parrish?

  Let's go through the basics of glimpsing. I think that would be helpful for us to orient around this.

• 40:54Speaker 00

  You know, so just starting with going back to the first thing we talked about, which is the way I learned, I learned this without knowing what glimpsing was, was hearing, he's got eyes in the back of his head. Oh, I know what that is. How do I do that? And so one way, I know some people are listening to this rather than watching it, but I have YouTube's of this too, but you can also just kind of let your eyes be soft and kind of take in the, not just pinpoint one thing, but kind of look at a little wider, like all the things on a table. And then almost feel like you can feel like a circle

• 41:37Speaker 00

  of a soft lens of a camera. And then feel like hearing, you're receiving hearing. And then just somehow actually realize that seeing is receiving. Light reflects off of objects and comes to your eyes. So just resting and receiving. And then you're going to have your awareness move itself. So you're not doing it, but awareness starts to move from something in front of you to the space, little more to the sides, then you're going to feel your peripheral vision follow and open, but your eyes aren't opening. But this

• 42:19Speaker 00

  having awareness start to open to the sides and then moving itself to.

• 42:28Speaker 00

  The side of your head in which sound is coming going and then somehow letting your awareness open all the way around. Just curiously wondering, feeling that open view and then just noticing, are you aware of that spacious awareness? Or what's it like when you're aware from that? Awareness that's equally inside and out. Both open minded, open hearted and embodied and feeling kind of dropped down. So you're aware of your body from within. And you are able to respond from

• 43:09Speaker 00

  a more open, non thought based alertness. So just noticing as you open and feel both embodied, what, what is it like to have the potential to move your hand or to use thought? But just rest without orienting to thought and without going to sleep to rest. And just notice this kind of freeing, it's kind of like looking, standing on a beach, looking at the ocean. Or if you added activity, you could do stuff from here. So that glimpse

• 43:50Speaker 00

  is a way that you're not just using thought to do something, but you're actually starting to shift your consciousness by moving awareness. In this case, it's opening awareness around which changes your perception, it changes your way of knowing. And it changes your center of identity. And it actually, when you're in an FMRI, which I've been, it balances, if you keep going, it'll balance your default mode network and your task mode network, it will open your parietal lobe, it'll not only come.

• 44:35Speaker 00

  You moving you from beta to alpha, but it'll actually start putting the synchronized gamma creativity open up so that you're more creative and related. It'll kind of drop you into this compassionate, intelligent field.

• 44:53Shane Parrish?

  So for those of us who are more prone to instruction, I think in the book you lay out seven steps, starting with unhook.

• 45:03Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 45:03Shane Parrish?

  Can you walk us through those?

• 45:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, so, so that one I just did is kind of a, you know, a quick way of starting from seeing. So the premise is that awareness is our primary way of knowing is like a, a feeling of open, spacious and pervasive. And it isn't, doesn't have to be identified with thought or creating a thinker. And we can see that when we just do basic mindfulness, which is just step back and be aware of thoughts coming and going. So just that move, which many of us have done,

• 45:50Speaker 00

  just being aware of your thoughts is a way of unhooking or stepping back

• 45:59Speaker 00

  to another center or observing point of view that is not your thought-based self. So I think most people can feel that. So that's the, just giving kind of some references that some people may have done. The, the feeling, whatever it is biologically, you know, you can't exactly say, you can't, you can't say, oh, I thought we were aware from our brain. Isn't, you mean, that's not true? Are we aware from the universe or something like that? I kind of don't deal with those questions.

• 46:44Speaker 00

  However, these, you know, direct practice wisdom traditions, when you open your awareness to what feels like a spacious view that's embodied, everyone reports that's true and then your brain shows results. The ACC, the interior singular cortex, which is the self-referencing part of your brain relaxes. So the results are clear and the felt sense is clear. So unhooking feels like you're unhooking into this

• 47:27Speaker 00

  open mind, open heart, mind, which is spacious and pervasive. So, so we can try it here, if you're not driving, by feeling, so what we'll do is we'll, we'll drop, we'll unhook awareness and drop it down to feel our jaw from within, feel our throat from within, feel our upper body from within, and drop into what's called a heart space or heart mind, as if that's the new open location from which we're aware. So this is just one way of kind of beginning to feel what that's like.

• 48:11Speaker 00

  So just feel this sense of your awareness being identified with this location of where you're hearing from, where you're trying to understand what am I talking about from. So then, not just what is he talking about, but where are you aware from, where you listen, where is the hearer? Where's the looker? Feel that and then just assume that awareness is actually the intelligence that can step above or drop down and feel as if awareness somehow can unhook and kind of step back, as if it's stepping out of the cloud into space.

• 48:58Speaker 00

  And it's as if you didn't do it, but awareness actually is moving itself.

• 49:04Speaker 00

  And then feel as if this awareness can move itself down to your smile and your jaw, to feel your jaw directly from within. And feel as if the awareness can drop into your throat and your neck. And just check that the subject and the object are now located in the same place. So you're not stretching attention down from its usual center behind your eyes.

• 49:41Speaker 00

  And you don't have to go back to thought to check that you're knowing. So feel that the awareness, the space, and kind of an effervescence, aliveness, are directly perceiving from your throat. And then notice that this kind of bubble of awareness can drop below your neck into your upper body. Just feel your upper body so it can get a little bigger directly from within. Feel that aliveness, space, and effervescence. And then feel as if you can drop kind of into the middle of your chest, into kind of a heart space or a safe, open space.

• 50:26Speaker 00

  They go deep into the space within the atoms. And feeling as if the subject and the object are now located in this open heart-mind. So that you're aware of the heart space and somehow you're aware from this heart space. And just notice a quality that feels open. So it's as if, once you go deep within, it feels like it opens to a more open mind, open heart, all around and within. And notice how you can be aware from here without orienting to thought.

• 51:11Speaker 00

  As if you're located, as if the files in the office of your head could come down by wifi to this home in your heart space if needed. And then just notice the location, just see where you feel your phone number arising, whether it can feel like it's arising to your heart space. And then let it go. And just notice a kind of alert potential to know or do. So spacious and embodied, alert, resting,

• 51:51Speaker 00

  deeper than sleep as that which is wide awake and safe, okay.

• 51:59Speaker 00

  So that's a sense of one little beginning method of unhooking. And you can do that, once you learn to do that, something like that, that's just one door. So I have like

• 52:16Speaker 00

  50 doors for different types of people and then different ways to continue. So you find your right glimpse door. Some people are more kinesthetic, some people more visual, some people more auditory. So I've found that different learning styles, you know, did that one work? No, no, no. Oh, oh, whoa. So then just finding a glimpse practice and a kind of a way of shifting that works for you.

• 52:57Shane Parrish?

  Thank you for that.

• 52:58Speaker 00

  Yeah. What was your experience of that?

• 53:01Shane Parrish?

  Uh, well, I'm simultaneously trying to keep track of sort of the conversation and also be in the moment with you. Uh, and those two things don't necessarily align super well. So I will go back and listen to this again. Can you talk to us about the three levels of mind?

• 53:17Speaker 00

  The, the three shifts are the shifts of from small self to no self to this kind of true nature operating system. So that's the shift of identity. Then there's a shift of knowing from thought based knowing that creates a thinker to not knowing.

• 53:40Speaker 00

  Or non-conceptual knowing, or don't-know mind, and then to kind of a not-knowing that knows, which is the way that this awareness-based knowing that's arising as thought can know. So that's a shift of identity, shift of knowing, and then the shift of perception, which is moving from using a tensional system and mindful witness to perceiving from a spacious, pervasive, interconnected, awake consciousness that isn't just limited to your body or detached witness, but it's perceiving from this, that has markers that most people have felt if they really, you know,

• 54:25Speaker 00

  have been in a flow consciousness or have been in the zone or have been just walking in nature, you tend to feel the results. Oh, I feel good, I feel relaxed. But if you really felt into, well, what's your relationship? Where are you aware of the forest from? Well, from me. Well, but just look, feel back that way. And then people who I'm walking with will say, oh, my God, I'm like connected to the trees and I'm not in my head. So that's what we're doing. We're looking to the type of consciousness that is shift of perception,

• 55:08Speaker 00

  shift of knowing, and shift of identity. That's the three. And so then the five levels of mind is kind of where we go through. So the first level of mind is the everyday mind or thought-based mind or ego-centered mind or the thinker, the small self, where most people live. And then the second level of mind is the mindful witness, what's called subtle mind or subtle body, which is dropping out of your everyday mind into more body-based hypofrontality, you know, when you go running or do yoga or do chanting or say om.

• 55:56Speaker 00

  You drop out of everyday thought-based mind and into this subtle body. Or if you step up and watch your thoughts coming and going, you're in subtle mind. And most meditation systems stop there. So most meditation systems do, you know, move from everyday mind to either subtle body or subtle energy. To go, you know, first levels of practice, dropping in exercise, yoga, or just basic mindfulness detached witness. So then the third level of mind is this unique effortless awake awareness.

• 56:41Speaker 00

  So this is called very subtle mind or nature of mind. In Tibetan, it's called rigpa. It's called, you know, the Tao. It's called turya in Hinduism. So these are, these are, you know, given names, but we, most of us haven't heard of them, but these are practices that have been done for thousands of years. And this is the model that says, there is this nature of mind that doesn't deny thought,

• 57:18Speaker 00

  isn't anti-intellectual, but it is a flow consciousness that you can either train in a progressive way, or there's these direct path ways to recognize this awake awareness, which is contentless, timeless, boundless, equally inside and out. And then the fourth level of mind is the unity of awake awareness arising as sensation, thought, feeling, vibration, and the world. So this is where the word, this is the difference between if you go into pure awareness or

• 58:01Speaker 00

  kind of a mindful witness, the experience is as if you're the screen of a movie and everything's coming and going within it, or you're the big sky mind and thoughts, feelings, and sensations are rising and passing. So that That's the meditation state. But from awake awareness to this next unity of awareness and aliveness is what's described as emptiness. So emptiness is a strange word for most of us in the West, but what it means is there's no thing in itself that has independent existence.

• 58:43Speaker 00

  So a flower, there's no such thing as a flower that can be referred to independent of sun, water, earth and air. There's no thing that's separate, a separate object and subject. Everything's connected. So this is the interesting thing. What are we using the word emptiness? We should use interconnected. So when I say that to people, because the word that's translated even in the Theravada tradition insight meditation is interdependent. And I'm like, interdependent, yeah, interconnected is what we use.

• 59:23Shane Parrish?

  Or symbiotic, like we all.

• 59:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, so that everything. So what if we were to use that, like, you know, or unity? You know, everything is interconnected. So when we go out to this awake awareness and then the awareness is like the quantum field arising as particles and waves. And then we feel, oh, my God, I'm being embodied is connected, knowing my body from within and being connected to everybody. And then there's this safety. When you feel that, rather than sky with birds and clouds of thoughts, an ocean arising as interconnected feeling of flow,

• 1:00:08Speaker 00

  then you feel this sense of like, everything's okay and well being. And that's the magic move from awake awareness, which is a new concept.

• 1:00:19Speaker 00

  To what's called the inseparable pair. It's called simultaneous mind because it's simultaneously awareness and aliveness.

• 1:00:30Shane Parrish?

  And then there's one more level beyond that, right? That was level four.

• 1:00:33Speaker 00

  Yeah. And then the fifth level is true nature, often translated as bodhicitta, which is translated as heart mind or open hearted awareness. So this is the, this is the place where you start to feel not only is everything interconnected, but there's a little like positive qualities are flourishing. And it's where your new operating system of flow feels like it's a compassionate flow. So there's like a compassionate wisdom, a kind of non-reactivity, a feeling of like safety and friendliness that even though stuff is happening in the world

• 1:01:13Speaker 00

  and you get triggered and everything, there's this greater, almost like something greater than you, yourself that's supporting you. And then you're kind of flowing out with more natural loving kindness that isn't something you're kind of thinking about, but is just like comes from that ease and well being.

• 1:01:37Shane Parrish?

  So if I were to sum up our conversation so far, I think it would be that we try to change our thoughts and beliefs instead of trying to change the level at which we're accessing the mind. Is that correct?

• 1:01:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, that most people, you know, most philosophy, psychology, even, you know, meditation starts, you know, then we have meditation where you kind of go one level of consciousness and you get some relief and you go like, okay, that's enough. That's just stress management. I'll stop there. Whereas this is, there is, I mean, this is the thing that, you know, it's, it's hard, hard to say because it starts sounding like, but there is like an awake consciousness that is so freeing and so loving and so available.

• 1:02:28Shane Parrish?

  And it's just beyond the point when most give up, right? Cause that was, that was level three and level two, you said, is where most of us get to. And then sort of like stop, we don't push through that.

• 1:02:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, we don't, because there's some kind of letting go. And, and then the subtle, so all the strengths that we've used from our mind.

• 1:02:49Speaker 00

  Can get a little vacation in level two, but then we come back to functioning from a calmer ego. And then we're like, oh, that was good. But this is the upgrade. You have to go from kind of the old orientation to a little disorientation. Like, where am I? I'm not a self. There's nothing here. And then the system one is saying like, don't go out of your mind. Stay in control. Avoid the void, you know, it's like, no, you gotta go. But in this method of glimpsing, it literally takes three seconds to three minutes to let go and then tune in to the already awake awareness that's timeless, boundless, contentless.

• 1:03:31Speaker 00

  And you feel almost like you're plugging in or handing off a baton. And then you're like, ah, like plugged in. And now like, okay, now include everything. And then it's like, whoa. So that's, that's the amazing thing that I, I'm convinced that it is this amazing potential. That's learnable and teachable and a developmental stage. And I'm just very much, you know, more of an educational approach, scientific approach than a teacher guru or something. I'm just like, okay, let's see, let's get a group of people together. Let's test it out. Give me some feedback. Let's keep, keep getting it changed.

• 1:04:14Speaker 00

  But I'm pretty like, what do you guys think? And so somebody like in my course that I'm doing said, you know, I just felt so stuck and couldn't do any of the spirituality. So I went down to South America and did ayahuasca. And it really changed my life. It's just been amazing for the last year. Everything's changed. And then it started to fade and I was about to go back, but then I took your course. And it's like, now I can access the positive qualities of it. So I'm not go, I'm not going back. That's the potential of this is that it's like. But this is, this is crazy. This is like, and I'm very, you know, kind of humbled by it all. I'm like, whoa, this is crazy.

• 1:04:56Speaker 00

  But I'm just doing the work of translating experientially and trying to get people on board to try it out and give me feedback and say, what's true? What's real? What's true? Is it working? Does it really work? Are we kidding ourselves? So, but it does seem remarkable. I know my life is, you know, I wake up, my wife says, you have a smile on your face when you're sleeping. You know, I'm like, yeah, well, it's just the background, you know, sense of freedom. And as you can see, I live in New York City and talk fast, you know, even for, for meditation teacher, you know, I'm, I'm very much involved in, you know, more flow optimal than passive

• 1:05:41Speaker 00

  than, and just escaping life.

• 1:05:45Shane Parrish?

  What is happiness to you?

• 1:05:47Speaker 00

  I mean, it, you know, there's like small H happiness, which is the attempt to find some kind of pleasure or satisfaction, right? So, you know, and that's good, but can become an addiction. And if we only know that level, you know, that happiness of some pleasure, having, you know, even just a basic good meal or something, then the endorphins and then the, and then the, you know, you know, filling up of a biological stomach that was craving something and then feeling okay. Then the, when that fades, whatever that is, whether it's food or, or drugs or sex

• 1:06:32Speaker 00

  or exercise or some pleasure, then what's revealed is what's the baseline?

• 1:06:40Speaker 00

  And then it's like, almost like go up and then go down. And then it's like, oh my God, my anxiety or depression. So, most people, because of the small ego center as the operating system, will either their energy and emotions, they either have to be anxious, which means too much going on to try to manage it, or they depress it. So, most people are anxious or depressed, or they're like in a role of like, go, go, go, work, work, work, go to sleep, get up, do it again. So, those are like the three modes that most, and then people, you know, get too anxious, all of a sudden, something happens, then they get

• 1:07:21Speaker 00

  super anxious, then their body breaks down, or their emotions break down, or too depressed, because overwhelmed, or stressed out, or worried. So, happiness with a capital H is our natural condition, which is this kind of okayness and well-being from this essential nature, which kind of feels like it's okay, I'm, I'm here, and someday I'm gonna die, and it's not, and I'm aware of the part that's afraid of death, and I'm aware of the part that feels like I'm not good enough, and I should do something to be okay. And there's

• 1:08:03Speaker 00

  an essential well-being okayness that comes into these positive qualities that arise, that has this low level of bliss, and kind of friendliness toward people, and things, even, even things seem like they're lit up from within. And it's really this hidden jewel, or this dimension of consciousness that's hidden in the background, but it's already installed. And if you, if we learn how to make this drop or openness, or background, foreground shift, so it becomes primary, soon as it becomes 51% primary, it's like,

• 1:08:48Speaker 00

  ah, relief, joy, happiness, bubbling, freedom, because there's, there's no fear, it's kind of a, it can't be hurt. You know, the, the image they use in the wisdom traditions is, the awake awareness is like shooting arrows through the sky. You just feel like, all right, everything's, everything's essentially okay. And there's a human being that's bumbling through life with pleasant and unpleasant experiences, trying to do the best we can with ups and downs. But the ups and downs are so small compared to the new baseline.

• 1:09:29Shane Parrish?

  How would you describe love?

• 1:09:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, so that's, again, it's like, love is almost the fabric of, of this dimension of self that feels like the primary dimension. So the love that you feel isn't even just compassion. It's literally like unconditional love. So it feels like who I am is love, what everything is love. And unconditional means there's no conditions. It's literally something that is not gotten through something outside of myself or ourselves. And it's not a, it's not a mental state.

• 1:10:12Speaker 00

  So that's the key to this also is this, what I'm describing is not a meditation state. That's a question I'll often ask people will say like, okay, shift, drop, open, include in these glimpses. Now what's here? And is this a meditation state? Or does this feel like essentially who you are to which other states can come and go? And when you start to realize that this is your foundation or ground of being, and you start to be able to slowly optimally function from this in a way that you're more creative and related, there's a kind of love and a joy in, you know, Chick Sant Mahai,

• 1:10:56Speaker 00

  the guy who did the research on flow, called it ecstasy, you know? He said, it's, you know, there's a quality and flow of ecstasy or bliss or love that feels like a palpable, like what we've looked for. You know, there's still other lines and levels of love, you know, types of love. There's, you know, friendship love, romantic love, colleague love, you know, like that are different, almost like lines.

• 1:11:28Speaker 00

  But this is the foundational unconditional love that we are that isn't something that comes and goes.

• 1:11:34Shane Parrish?

  I appreciate that.

• 1:11:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:11:37Shane Parrish?

  What do you think is the hardest skill about what you've learned to transfer to other people?

• 1:11:44Speaker 00

  Certainly, the languaging of it is the first one, because as many smart maps as we have from psychology and even even reading the poetry and the wisdom traditions, it just seems like we're filtering it through our secondary process, thinking from a thinker in a subject-object way. And so we're taking in information and trying to understand it based on thoughts, concepts, and experiences that we've had, whereas moving from that knowing to not knowing to this

• 1:12:29Speaker 00

  new wordless awareness that could use words, that doesn't have a center in our head, but has a feeling of clarity and openness. So that, so even people who experience that in flow haven't looked that way. They haven't looked at that to say, well, where are you aware from? When you're, no, I'm in flow, I'm so connected, everything. So they have the qualities, but they can only get into it through, okay, well, I do it through playing the violin, so I haven't played the violin, so I'm miserable. I better go play the violin.

• 1:13:08Speaker 00

  So this is like, no, when you're there, look to see what is looking. Like, don't just feel the results and the expression and the symptoms of qualities. Look to the looker. Look to find that where you're aware from. And so if we start with that, let's just unhook from the small self and have a little simple map. Okay, and then there's no self, and then there's consciousness itself. Which is spacious, pervasive, interconnected, open-hearted,

• 1:13:49Speaker 00

  and can now begin to walk and talk and type and create and then lose it. And then I say, no big surprise, just re-recognize. And then you just re-recognize and start again and bring it into action and activity. You know, getting that started and then being willing to stay with it so that it becomes the new operating system takes, it's more because the old operating system is so strong. It has such a habitual, like pops you back in there like, well, you know, but don't, don't you think I should be thinking about this and from here that I've always thought about this way?

• 1:14:31Speaker 00

  And it's been presented in a way that it is this meditation state or it's this, you know, time apart or you go on retreat. And so, so teaching that, no, no, do it for small times and then retrain your brain to remain.

• 1:14:51Shane Parrish?

  I like that. I think that's a great place to sort of end this conversation. I really appreciate you taking the time, Locke. Where can people find you online?

• 1:15:00Speaker 00

  My website is www.lochkelly.org. That's L O C H K E L L Y dot org. And then I have a bunch of good, you know, Youtubes that are available of doing some of these glimpses and then SoundCloud if you want to listen to them. So that's all free. And then you'll see my books and other things on, on my website and events. So a lot of online events where I go through glimpse after glimpse.

• 1:15:32Shane Parrish?

  Thank you so much.

• 1:15:33Speaker 00

  All right, Shane, thank you. Appreciate it.

• 1:15:42Shane Parrish?

  Hey, one more thing before we say goodbye. The Knowledge Project is produced by the team at Fernham Street. I want to make this the best podcast you listen to, and I'd love to get your feedback. If you have comments, ideas for future shows, or topics, or just feedback in general, you can email me at [email protected] or follow me on Twitter at Shane A. Parrish. You can learn more about the show and find past episodes at fs.blog/podcast. If you want a transcript of this episode, go to fs.blog/tribe and join our learning community. If you found this episode valuable, share it online with the hashtag The Knowledge Project, or leave a review. Until the next episode.