E213 - Matthew Hussey: The Patterns Blocking You From Love (& What To Do)

Matthew Hussey is back on the show, and this conversation picks up right where our last one left off, except he's grown a lot since then. Matthew built his early career on a simple idea: create more opportunity and you'll make better romantic choices. Over time he realized abundance alone doesn't fix anything. The real work lives underneath, in the unconscious patterns and emotional reflexes that decide who we choose and how we behave once we have them. That discovery pushed his focus toward emotional regulation, and it's the thread running through everything we talk about today. What We Dive Into: 1. Matthew built his early career on the idea that more romantic opportunity leads to better choices. He later realized abundance does not override the unconscious patterns formed by our earliest relationships. Real change comes from understanding those patterns, not expanding the pool of options. 2. When someone does not text back for hours and a whole day unravels, the reaction is rarely about the message itself. Matthew describes triggers as reflexive states shaped by earlier wounds, not conscious choices. Curiosity and self-compassion, not shame, create room to respond differently. 3. Matthew traces his readiness for commitment to a relationship built on certainty and standards at once: his wife made clear she was giving it an honest try and expected the same. That let him stop fearing the future and start showing up fully, since the decision no longer sat on him alone. Know Thyself, but not by yourself. A guided space to return home to yourself. https://www.knowthyselfcollective.com ✨THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS: https://www.mudwtr.com/knowthyself Use code KNOWTHYSELF for up to 43% off sitewide Waking Up: Get your 14 day free trial! https://www.wakingup.com/knowthyself ___________ 00:00 Intro 01:09 Why the Focus Shifted to Relationships 09:26 How Perspective Shifts With Experience 11:41 Relationship as a Path to Growth 17:11 The Fear Beneath Commitment 34:24 Commitment as Freedom, Not Loss 48:15 Spreading Your Needs Across a Tribe 51:50 What's Actually Essential in a Partner 1:00:37 Choosing a True Teammate 1:07:11 Being Whole Before You Partner Up 1:19:37 The Gift of Real Presence 1:26:07 What Men and Women Actually Need 1:34:33 Beyond Masculine and Feminine Labels 1:36:41 The Illusions and Joys of Parenthood 1:41:37 Letting Go of the Achievement Identity 1:50:27 Working With Emotional Triggers 2:10:08 The Dance of Acceptance and Growth 2:12:18 Life as an Earth School 2:20:23 Learning From Different Wiring 2:22:46 The Power of Shared Vulnerability 2:30:20 Closing Reflections 2:32:36 Outro ___________ ✨MORE FROM MATTHEW HUSSEY ↳FREE 3-Day Event: https://www.3DayCalm.com ↳Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thematthewhussey ↳https://matthewhussey.com 📜MORE FROM KNOW THYSELF ↳Spotify: https://spoti.fi/4bZMq9l ↳Apple: https://apple.co/4iATICX ↳Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/knowthyself/ ↳TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@andreduqum ↳Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/knowthyselfbyandreduqum/ ↳https://knowthyselfpodcast.com/ 👁️MORE FROM ANDRÉ ↳Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/@andreduqum ↳Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/company/know-thyself-podcast ↳Book recs: https://www.knowthyselfpodcast.com/book-list

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  If we had kids together.

• 0:01André Duqum?

  Me and you.

• 0:02Speaker 00

  You're me and I died. Would I feel great about the values my kids would be subjected to? You have to ask yourself, if this person showed up like this for the next 50 years, what would my life be like? A lot of people have very high standards of things that don't matter that much. And then they have very low standards for things that do matter. That's what happens. When we're being guided by ego or insecurity, we're not thinking about those things that are going to actually determine quality of life. I coached someone who didn't get invited to something, the person she was dating, was holding, and immediately sabotaged the relationship over it. Her avoidance just kicked in and made her push him away. So much of our patterns are unconscious and they get triggered.

• 0:45André Duqum?

  What do you think is really important to remind people around emotional regulation?

• 0:48Speaker 00

  When we get control of our emotions, we get control of our life. I implore everybody to take time to look at those patterns. You can change the person, but the pattern keeps following you into each new relationship. At the end of the day, you ask anybody, did you have a good life? It always comes down to their relationship. We blossom around some people and not around others. No matter what, find someone who.

• 1:18André Duqum?

  Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the Know thyself podcast. Our guest today is returning for the second time, and I am so happy he is because I loved our last conversation. Y'all loved our last conversation. He's one of the world's most renowned dating and relationship coaches. He's been for nearly two decades, helping people find love, maintain love, grow love. He's a bestselling author of Love Life and is one of the most viewed dating coaches online. Matthew Hussey, thank you for being back here.

• 1:47Speaker 00

  Lovely to be back. I was hoping everything hadn't changed in how cozy this space was because I remember that feeling I had last time I was here. I was like, oh, I really just nestled in.

• 2:00Speaker 00

  And finally, you brought me a tea and it was funny to like, I literally went, this is really good tea. And you went, you said that last time.

• 2:09Speaker 00

  I just hope I don't repeat myself in every way from last time, but yeah.

• 2:13André Duqum?

  I doubt it. I doubt it because you've grown a lot in your own life and your perspective on a lot of things we'll be diving into today, I'm sure. And perhaps we could start there, you know? I think, I'm curious what has provoked the shift to focusing a bit more on relationships themselves and emotional regulation and reactivity as an umbrella for you to dive deeper into? What's been that slight shift of focus for you over the past year?

• 2:42Speaker 00

  I suppose for anyone who doesn't know me, that the kind of context for me is I started very early on talking about how to create more opportunity in your love life, which was a very real thing for me at that stage. I was like enjoying creating opportunity in my own love life. And as a, I was a shy and introverted teenager. So, and child. I mean, I literally, my mom would describe me going to parties and my cousin Casey, who was like my best friend growing, still is, but my best friend growing up, she would go and collect the party bags at the end for me and her because she was like the brave bold one of the two of us.

• 3:26Speaker 00

  And I sort of, that followed me, I think, into being a teenager and I, as a result, you know, we soak up anything that feels like it's exactly what we need. And anything that showed me how to be more confident, anything that showed me how to be, I suppose in some ways play an extrovert because I'm not, I still, I'm very much introverted. But to be able to turn on those tools when I needed them was very meaningful to me at that age. So, you know, I was reading all sorts of books around that subject. How to Win Friends and Influence People was like my favorite book at 12 years old because

• 4:07Speaker 00

  it was like, I was going into school and I was like, it was practically helping me talk to people and talk to my teachers and talk to my friends. And, you know, of course, at some point that became, I want to be able to talk to girls and I want to be able to especially talk to the one girl that I'm really interested in. And that was the most fearful thing for me. And, you know, for a long time, I say for a long time, for some years as a teenager, the only people I would end up on a date with were people who approached me. It was never someone I had approached. And so I thought I better do something about this because otherwise I'm going to spend the rest of my life being chosen instead of actually deciding like, who would I like to meet? Who would I like to date?

• 4:52Speaker 00

  So that was the beginning of my career and, you know, I wrote a book around that subject called, at the time it was called Get the Guy because it was very female focused and how women can create more opportunity in their love lives. But over time, obviously, you know, if you're doing this for long enough, you recognize our biggest problem isn't just meeting people. It's that, because my theory as a 21 year old was like, oh, the, if, as long as we have abundance, as long as we have plenty of people to choose from, we'll make better choices. We won't choose the person who's mean to us or disrespectful or cheats or whatever. We'll choose a better person. And I came to realize that, you know, that's not true.

• 5:35Speaker 00

  Obviously you can have total abundance and still choose someone based on your own patterns or your early relationships, your parents, whatever your model of love is that is going to ruin your life and to the exclusion of everybody else. So I started recognizing, okay, I need to, I need to understand what's going on here. And, you know, over a long time, I started helping people with understanding their wiring in this area, in their love lives. Like what are their deeper patterns that are governing their choices? Much of the time unconsciously in their love life that keep leading them back to the same painful places, whether the painful place is being on your own, when you really deeply

• 6:20Speaker 00

  want to find love, whether the painful place is being in relationships that are really toxic with people who wind up hurting you or never committing, helping people understand those patterns. And then I got to a point where I realized so much of our patterns are unconscious and they are reflexive and they get triggered. And, you know, something will happen, someone won't text us back for a few hours and we really like this person and we've made certain decisions about how important this person is based on how well the first date went. And then they don't text us back for a few hours and we become activated.

• 7:05Speaker 00

  And that's when we make bad choices. That's when we, our own life just becomes miserable because now we can't do the piece of work we need to finish today that's really important. We can't focus on it because we're too busy focusing on not feeling good enough for this person that we went on a date with last week. So now we're not sleeping or we're not eating well or we're not, all because we've struggled to regulate ourselves in that moment. And we all have our examples of that. So that's kind of what led me to the emotional regulation piece. I truly believe that when we get control of our emotions, we get control of our life. And so many of us do not feel like we're in the driving seat when it comes to our emotions. We feel like we are a passenger all the time.

• 7:49Speaker 00

  So that's become a sort of obsession of mine and partly because it's what I've struggled with my whole life, you know? That's something I really relate to and I've had to do a lot of work to get myself to a place where I'm able to regulate differently than I used to. The relationship stuff is like my wife, Audrey, keeps saying to me like, you know, people really want to hear you talk more about relationships, you know? And I, I'm the kind of person that I, I always, I'm an obsessive studier.

• 8:29Speaker 00

  I care deeply about saying things that, you know, I believe are really true and have a depth of understanding behind them. And I, you know, I didn't want to be that person who got married five minutes ago and starts talking about how to have a healthy marriage.

• 8:46André Duqum?

  The 25 year old life coach in relationships as an example.

• 8:50Speaker 00

  Literally, you know, I, at 21, I felt I had something, I really felt I had something to say about creating more opportunity in your love life because it didn't require a lot of depth of understanding. It required certain abilities to, how do I turn on the bravest part of me? How do I get over my fear of rejection? How do I go over and talk to that person? What does the structure of good conversation look like? What does flirting look like? You know, and I knew, well, the proof is in the pudding on those things. Like I need to be able to do those things. And if I can, then I have something to say about it, especially if I've overcome my own shyness in that department. But, you know, I, but I've always been quite careful in that. Well, I say that, I mean, there have been times in my life where I don't think I've

• 9:35Speaker 00

  been careful enough. But increasingly, as I've gotten older, I've tried to be very careful about wading in on things and I don't, I just don't, I have an aversion to like, I, you know, I've never eaten healthy in my whole life and today I ate healthy. So I'm going to teach a course on how to eat healthy. It's like, I, you know, it just doesn't, to me, it lacks, it lacks credibility and I, you know, I'm 39 now. We got married like three years ago, I think. It's like three years ago.

• 10:10André Duqum?

  It's time when you're having a blast.

• 10:11Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 10:12André Duqum?

  You know?

• 10:14Speaker 00

  But I, you know, it, I'm learning, I'm learning and we just had a baby.

• 10:23Speaker 00

  Nine months ago. And I'm learning in that way too. So but my but my wife is like, you know, people do want it like they'll. They want to watch videos about relationships and they want to hear what you have to say. And I I'm like, yeah, I will. I will. So when you when you were like, what do you think we should talk about? So I was like, maybe we should talk about relationships.

• 10:44André Duqum?

  Well, it's the beauty of having friendships and people in your life that you know, in general, that span a longer period of time is you get to see the evolutions of them. You know, my friends that I knew when they were single and dating, then they finally met somebody and had this fear of commitment, but then like leaned in and now they're married and they're having kids. And you get to see these different versions of people. I've known you for a relatively short amount of time, but even in that time span, there's there's an evolution, not that any, you know, advice that you might have shared prior at all was wrong. But just like having a baby, you know, you learn things that you otherwise couldn't have, and it sort of transcends, but still includes this former area of dating advice and finding the one.

• 11:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I think the evolutions you're talking about, often they're happening in this sort of quiet way in the background before they happen, before they're responsible for any kind of visible change that everyone else would notice. You know, I I I tell a lot of stories about when Audrey and I were dating and she did, you know, all the right things when I was being difficult or, you know, was kind of dragging my heels as far as like jumping, you know, fully into the relationship. And so Audrey gets a lot of public credit for like, you know, being someone who came along and helped me get out of my own way.

• 12:09Speaker 00

  But it's it's deeper than that because in truth, when Audrey came into my life, I was already someone who was, you know, I was question, I was already changing. I was already questioning a lot of like, what made me happy? What did I value the most in my life? How was that different from five years prior or 10 years prior? So like, I was already the tectonic plates were already shifting. And, you know, that's why I believe I don't think you could come along to someone who's just got zero interest in commitment and you're gonna like, it's a bad plan to try and get that person to change. But, you know, sometimes we meet each other in these moments in our life where the currents

• 12:50Speaker 00

  are already shifting and with the right people in our life that creates interesting outcomes.

• 12:59André Duqum?

  I think earlier on in my journey, I had this conception of like, the person who's taking self-realization and self-actualization the most seriously is like off in the caves, you know, meditating in the Himalayas. And the more I've just, I think, grown as a human, I've seen how much of the real work is is relational. We're wounded, as it's said in relation, we heal in relation. They are the greatest mirrors.

• 13:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:24André Duqum?

  And they, like you mentioned, provide bountiful opportunity for the triggers necessary for the stuff to come up and out. And so I'm curious, and your thoughts of viewing relationship as that, like as a vehicle for your own and your collective self-realization.

• 13:43Speaker 00

  Well, you said it, like the Judith Herman wrote a book, like, I mean, one of the seminal books on trauma called Trauma and Recovery. And she talks about, you know, this concept that what's broken in relationships needs to be healed within the context of relationships. And that is, I think, a part we often forget. I I think that's been forgotten a lot, actually, these days, where people have been hurt or they're kind of, for good reason, sometimes really sick of people, they're over people. And so we, the natural impulse is to retreat. And we can retreat in different forms.

• 14:24Speaker 00

  We can retreat socially and say, I'm done with friendships, you know, I can't, people just always betray you or people let you down. I'm I'm done with all of that. You could be a woman who says, I'm done with women. You know, like, I just get on with men because women just don't like me. And so you create an antagonistic relationship with your own gender, which happens a lot. You can be someone who says, I can't, I'm never dating again because dating just robs me of my peace. And and that's true for a lot of people, like it does, I get it. I'm not saying they're wrong. There's a lot of relationships rob us of our peace at times.

• 15:05Speaker 00

  Whether they rob us of our peace continually and perpetually is that's a different story. But yes, like, if we're in relation to other people, if we're if we're having relationships, we're gonna have moments where we're robbed of our peace. I had a son nine months ago. I've been robbed of my peace, you know, many times already in the last nine months. And not just from, you know, him waking up in the middle of the night and lack of sleep. I've been robbed of my peace because I'm waking myself up, thinking something's gone wrong, like worrying if he's breathing. Or as a new parent, I'm like going through, I'm sure there'll be older parents who roll their eyes and like, ah, yeah, that's all part of it.

• 15:49Speaker 00

  But for sure, it's robbed me of my peace. Like, I, there's now a whole new part of me that's just terrified. And the anxious, the anxious part of me is just like, ready to feast on all these new things now that could go wrong, that are like, have become overnight my greatest vulnerability. So I think part of it is understanding that it it's actually par for the course. Like, it's not, it just because relationships occasionally rob us of our peace, doesn't mean we're doing it all wrong all the time. It it's hard, but I I don't, I I always come back to the same place in my own life,

• 16:31Speaker 00

  which is that there just isn't anything more important than my relationships. And there isn't a better practice ground for everything we're learning. It it is, it is too easy to feel calm in a room by ourselves for a lot of us. You know, the moment we step outside our door and we have to meet another person, whether it's our own difficult parent, or whether it's a sibling, or whether it's just you live in a busy city and you have to deal with people, the theater of, you know, the street.

• 17:10Speaker 00

  I it is a a measure of our robustness, how we handle those moments. And whether we're equipped to handle those moments, you know, that's something encouraging because you can, you can better equip yourself to handle those moments. And I'm not saying there aren't, there are certain people we should not test our robustness by keeping in our lives. There are certain people who shouldn't be in our lives, no matter family or not. But I I don't know, I, you know, at the end of the day, it's what game in life is worth playing.

• 17:51Speaker 00

  And I think the relational game is like, at the end of the day, you ask anybody, always comes down to their relationships. Did you have a good life? It's always ends up coming down to, did you have great friends? Did you have people you loved who loved you? Did you, did you feel like you were connected to other human beings? You ask people who are unhappy, what's going on? Almost like so much of it comes down to the people in their life. But by the way, we have hard times that aren't related to people. But when you are having hard times that aren't related to people, it's people who almost always make hard times easier. So, yeah.

• 18:30André Duqum?

  Yeah, I'd like to speak directly to that. I think, I know I have so many friends in my life or acquaintances as well that I've been around, that especially as a guy, you know, you're in your 30s, your 40s, your 50s, you kind of resist the commitment of intimacy for the friction it brings in, for the challenge it brings, because especially as you get older, you learn more of what your values are, you have high standards, you prioritize your peace. And why sacrifice that for something that's less than absolutely stellar, which I I get. But I'm I'm curious, what are your thoughts for those that are navigating that tension

• 19:12André Duqum?

  of really enjoying their own company, having high standards? They want relationship, they want a relationship, but they they fear the death of the little boy, you know? It's like stepping into man can be quite scary and the commitment there.

• 19:30Speaker 00

  And the death of the little boy is, yeah, how would you describe that?

• 19:34André Duqum?

  It's.

• 19:37André Duqum?

  Making your independency so precious in a way that sort of absolves you from responsibility.

• 19:49André Duqum?

  Not the little boy in terms of tending to your own inner emotional landscape. Like, I think all of that gets to come along along the the ride. But especially for like some women in my life that struggle with finding men that are willing to deepen and express emotionally, vulnerably, be intimate. And when it comes to that point in that decision point of moving in together, of maybe getting married if they want to do that, of having kids, you know, that those are, those are commitments.

• 20:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, they are.

• 20:25Speaker 00

  It's funny, because I also feel, I feel like we live in a world today where this uniquely dangerous in one way, because we, you and I, both in our own ways, contribute to a world where people, I suppose, in some ways, you know, talk more about their emotions, or are better, more fluent at talking about feelings and so on, which doesn't always mean that they're more available.

• 20:52André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 20:53Speaker 00

  You know, like, we, I think we used to just equate emotional availability to like someone who spoke the right language. And now there's like an abundance of people who speak the right language and are still just as emotionally unavailable as anybody else. But now you don't even see them coming because of that. So that's a whole interesting thing on its own.

• 21:14Speaker 00

  It's interesting the way you phrase it as like the, well, there's two things, you know, you said the, holding out, not wanting to rob yourself of your independence, or of the life you have, for something that isn't stellar.

• 21:28André Duqum?

  Right.

• 21:28Speaker 00

  And the issue becomes, how do we define what's stellar? Because that's what gets us into a lot of trouble over time is, you know, do we have high standards about the right things? A lot of people I speak to have very high standards for things that don't matter that much, and then they have very low standards for things that do matter.

• 21:52Speaker 00

  My cousin was just telling me on the phone, he'll hate me for outing him here, that he was watching, he's, we were just speaking on the way here, and I was like, what have you been up to? And he was like, I was so tired after this week, I like had so much on, I just got home, and I, he said, I'm so, I feel so guilty about it, I didn't put on anything good. Like, I just put on Love is Blind, the UK version.

• 22:17Speaker 00

  And he said, I was, I watched three episodes. And he said, oh, man, it's just, there's so many challenges people have on there. He said, like, there was this woman, I haven't seen it, so I'm commenting secondhand on this, but he was describing this woman to me who, who talks only about like how much money she wants a guy to spend on her on a first date. Like, this is what she just talks about nonstop, is like, if a guy doesn't spend three hundred pounds, which is like the equivalent of four hundred, five hundred dollars, on a first date, she's not interested. And then she talked about like, how one guy, you know, took her on a first date that was like, I don't know, twenty thousand dollars, or whatever, because he took her to like

• 22:58Speaker 00

  front row, Centre Court, Wimbledon, Wimbledon, on a date, to see the tennis. And so she's kind of bragging about all of this, and telling everyone, walking around the room, and telling everyone like, hey, like, raise your standards, guys, like, these are my standards, you need to raise your standards. And he said, then cut to her in the room where she's talking to camera, and she's crying because every guy she's ever dated has cheated on her. And he was speaking to me, he was like, the fact that she doesn't see the connection between the two things, like, this is, this is someone who has, she believes, very high standards. I suppose that's true, she doesn't just believe it, she does.

• 23:42Speaker 00

  She has high standards for how much money someone has to spend on her on the first meeting. But clearly very low standards for the integrity, or the character, or, you know, the goodness of the people that she's actually dating.

• 23:58Speaker 00

  And that is like a very, very common story among men and women these days. High standards about the wrong things, low standards about the right things.

• 24:10Speaker 00

  It's also dangerous, I think, as we get older, that our version of stellar, sort of, it, it, it's natural that it almost feels like it has to keep getting better to justify itself. Because why did I say no to the last ten people I said no to, if I'm not looking for something truly out of this world, exceptional?

• 24:39Speaker 00

  And I think that the danger for a lot of people is that they, they don't just feel, they, they don't just feel the impulse to find connection, like a genuine loving connection. They, it suddenly becomes necessary to find someone who validates everyone they've ever said no to.

• 25:00Speaker 00

  And that becomes a taller and taller order.

• 25:03André Duqum?

  And more and more pressure on the partner.

• 25:05Speaker 00

  A hundred percent. Because you probably, like, along the way, we, like, I, I know I did, like, you say some, you say no to some great people.

• 25:13André Duqum?

  And then that person has impossible shoes to fill.

• 25:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, and you, who knows why you said no to that great person? Maybe their connection wasn't there, or maybe you weren't on the same frequency, or maybe, or maybe you just were being too picky at that time in your life. But it, because we said no, and because we don't want to have that regret of like, well, maybe I shouldn't have said no to that person, it's like, well, but the next person's going to justify it. So that's a bit of a dangerous trap.

• 25:41Speaker 00

  And the response, you, you mentioned the responsibility as we, you know, that, that feeling of like, I don't want the responsibility of it. And I think we all, to some extent, live in that paradox of, like, I don't know how good you are at calling your friends, like, how, where you rate yourself on like how good you are at reaching out to people. I am really good sometimes, and at other times, just genuinely terrible. And I think that in there is the tension that I feel, which I don't know if you relate to, but for me, it's like, I want friends.

• 26:24Speaker 00

  But I, I don't, you know, I'm not always good at the responsibilities that friendships come with, which is like, have you, have you listened to someone recently? Have you actually hung out with them? Have you spent some, have you dedicated some of your precious quality time to this person?

• 26:42André Duqum?

  Taking initiative after flying with your child internationally, and you're exhausted, and like, you have your business that you're building, in your case, it's like, it takes extra effort to maintain those friendships, especially as you have more going on in life.

• 26:56Speaker 00

  It really does. And I, you know, I, I called a friend, I called two, I mean, I had a drive to Topanga, you know, so I don't know if you say, do you say that where this show is?

• 27:07André Duqum?

  Yeah, yeah, but the guests seem to all the time, so.

• 27:10Speaker 00

  You've been outed before.

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• 28:12Speaker 00

  You know, that this is a drive, I had, I had forty-five minutes to an hour in the car.

• 28:18André Duqum?

  Thanks for coming.

• 28:18Speaker 00

  It became, you're welcome. I, I said to you, I'm not doing many podcasts this year, but when you asked, I was like, I'm coming on your show.

• 28:25André Duqum?

  Honored.

• 28:26Speaker 00

  But it, that drive suddenly became time that I could, like, I, I felt like, oh, I can call someone now.

• 28:39Speaker 00

  And I called two people that I haven't called in like two months, and had a conversation. And it, I came away from those conversations feeling enriched and feeling better, and I didn't, it's not, I didn't just give a gift to them by calling them, it was a gift to me. But I'm not good at seeing that gift before the call, at least not a hundred percent of the time. Like, I think a lot of us, especially the introverted among us, and the people who feel very conscious of their energy in that way, and who get overwhelmed, and feel like, it's very easy before the call to, to not be able to envision the gift that the call will actually

• 29:19Speaker 00

  be, which is why I think, you know, we all have that person. I've, I've got people in my life who are far, far worse than I am in that department. You know, I'm, I think I'm being harsh on myself in the way I'm talking about this, but I have people who genuinely are really hard to reach, and who never reach out, and you have to cajole them into a bit of time or a call. And, you know, very often, you do that, and that person at the end of it will say, I'm really glad you called. Like, thanks for calling, it was, it's actually really made me feel better. And you could hear the surprise, almost, in their voice, that it helped them, or it meant something to them.

• 30:01Speaker 00

  But we're, I think we're very good at forgetting, we're very good at becoming distant from that feeling, from the benefit of those relationships, from, from how it, you know, you did, you're, you're in the middle of doing your retreat, or I don't know if it, by the time this comes out, the retreat will have happened.

• 30:19André Duqum?

  Yeah, well, I've just done it.

• 30:21Speaker 00

  You know, there will no doubt be people on that retreat who, sort of, the night before, will be going, do I want to, do I really want to go to this? Like, what the hell have I signed up for? Like, why did I do this? I've got to go now, like, meet a bunch of strangers and hang out. There'll be the other kind of person who's just like, socializing, I can't wait, and whatever, but, but there'll be lots of people who are like, I don't know about this, and this is going to be a lot of work, and this is going to be draining, and this is going to be, I'm going to have to be on.

• 30:55Speaker 00

  Those same people at the end of it will be very connected to how special that time was. And they will no doubt go away going, why don't I do stuff like this more? Why don't, this is like, this is it. This is so important. But then every day you're away from people that you, that truth starts to drift. And I really relate to that. And I, maybe this is a really convoluted way of saying it, but I think that we, we often lose connection with those truths when we're afraid of commitment.

• 31:36Speaker 00

  Because we've, we've come to associate commitment with so many negative things. Life is, is about associations, you know? Whatever you have more negative associations with than positive associations, you're going to avoid it. And for many people, and I count myself as one of them at a point, one point in my life, they're, they have more negative associations with getting, especially into a romantic relationship than they do positive. And like I said, sometimes for very good reason. But I, what I try to do in my work is help people

• 32:17Speaker 00

  to make choices about who to get into relationships with, who to give a chance to, that actually end up helping to shift those associations. Because a lot of those associations belong to the past. They belong to an old model of what a relationship meant, whether it was someone who you couldn't trust, who every time they left the house, you were freaking out that they were flirting with someone or that they were doing something that if you saw it would be hurting you. So for you, relationships, I can never relax because I'm always trying to control what I cannot control, which is someone else's actions when they're not with me.

• 33:00Speaker 00

  For other people, it's whatever a relationship is, I can't breathe. Because all those weekends that I enjoy to myself right now, all of those moments where I enjoy just doing my own thing, it's all going to get taken from me. I'm going to get absorbed into somebody else's needs. And the pressure to always be spending time with them and always be making them happy. And I'm going to be treading on eggshells. And I'm, you know, like, I, me and Audrey, my, my wife have this joke that like, when she was first moving in, I don't know, I said something. She's never let me forget it. I said something about like, the weekends and how like, they were important to me.

• 33:45Speaker 00

  She, I said something about like, um, what was it? I said something about like, listening to podcasts and how like, it was part of like, my learning and my decompression and my, like, and she make, she like, always looks back and laughs. Cause she's like, you know, I remember when I was moving in and you were like, but my podcasts. As if like, that should be the thing, like, that was my, that was the thing that my fears had hung itself on was this concept that I wouldn't be able to do this thing that was important to me anymore. And what was really true is that I had been in relationships in the past

• 34:29Speaker 00

  where I was so afraid of voicing that actually these hours would be really like important to me to carve out, to be able to read or listen or do something. I was so afraid to say that because of how, what might happen. Something bad's going to happen if I say that. That I wouldn't say it and then I'd get quietly resentful. And then eventually I'd bail on the relationship because I was like, I gotta get out. And, you know, what this relationship taught me is like, you can actually say these things and it doesn't threaten everything. And it's not, it's not going to have some crazy repercussions.

• 35:13Speaker 00

  And it's not, you can say these, it's safe to say these things. And then it becomes a kind of, well, what's, it's great. That's what's important to you. Here's what's important to me. Let's figure it out. So it's, you know, I think the best relationships are incredibly healing in that way. You, you start to realize you can actually laugh at some of the old associations you had that you realize just have no place in a really great relationship.

• 35:45André Duqum?

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• 36:30André Duqum?

  you wouldn't love what they have going on there too. The quality is just creme de la creme. That's wakingup.com/knowthyself or link in description as always. I hope you enjoy. Back to the show. Those associations, I think many people, when it comes to commitment, feels like a death of your freedom. And I think like the more matured aspect, which you're pointing towards is in the depth of commitment, it actually gives you way more freedom, not because you have more spaciousness on your calendar, but also it, it's kind of exhausting to be ping ponging between all the optionalities that you're keeping track of, you know?

• 37:13André Duqum?

  And like, you know, the, the person or the man or the woman who's like always keeping options open. To me, it can feel like there is a, um, an avoidance of like, the 90% beneath the surface of the iceberg of how much amazing material there is to work with, how much fulfillment can come through the challenges of the relationships. And I also do think that we suffocate relationships by the burden of expectations we place on one person to be the source of all of our needs. And I'm curious your thoughts on that.

• 37:56Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, to the first point, I, I very much relate to that feeling of like, I, I think I, I've had this relationship with a lot of things in my life where you go, well, if I choose that, I'm closing every other door. And I think we, we struggle with that in all sorts of ways. We struggle with that in our careers. Look at anyone who wants to start a YouTube channel, you know? One of the hardest things about starting a YouTube channel for people is like, but is, do I want this to be my thing? Or do I want it to be this? Or do I want it to be this? Or, you know, it, there's this feeling instantly of like, by actually making that first video and naming this channel,

• 38:41Speaker 00

  I'm closing every other door except this one. And then the stakes feel impossibly high. And the same is true of a relationship. The, the, you know, that, that feeling of, well, if I say yes to this person for something more, I am closing by definition, every other door in the world, except this one. That feels, the stakes of that feel impossibly, and they are impossibly high. Now we're, now we're thinking, but is this person better than anyone else in the world? And how are you going to answer that question? That person could never win that argument.

• 39:22Speaker 00

  So it then becomes, there's, or I think there's an addiction to like this feeling of like, all doors are open again. I finally, like, I broke that off.

• 39:33André Duqum?

  My friend calls that the potentials palace, you know? Infinite potential, just want to hang out there, you know?

• 39:39Speaker 00

  That's great. I used to love that place. I, I always felt euphoric in the beginning. I didn't stay euphoric. Cause then I like, would be sick of, you know, dating or I'd be anxious or I'd be like, but, you know, I feel like I really would like to meet someone or I'm craving more depth or, but man, I used to love that palace. I used to love that feeling of like, when you first realize like, anything can happen. Like, wow. That, and that is, I, we almost should acknowledge that there is an excitement to that. It's the same excitement you might feel going on, on a night out. And you're like, anything can happen here. I could meet anybody. Like, who knows? Like, I could meet the love of my life tonight.

• 40:24Speaker 00

  I could, that's, there's something, there is something exciting about that. I recognize by the way, many people do not feel that at all. There's plenty of people in dating right now who are like, I can't relate to anything that's being talked about right now because I don't feel there's any options, there's any potential. I would kill for one good option. And dating is just an abs, dating ship is defined today by an absence of options. But I.

• 40:54Speaker 00

  I do think there is something exhilarating and that feels hard to give up about that. We, I think at a certain point in our life, what really changes it is not that that's not fun or exciting, it's that you value something else more. And that's kind of encouraging because you don't need to suddenly be like, I'm that old me is dead and this new me is just all about commitment or whatever. No, you just, you've just become a person whose values shift.

• 41:28André Duqum?

  Yep.

• 41:29Speaker 00

  And so actually just, it becomes a natural feeling to say, I don't, in the same way that, you know, for many people who get to an age where they go, I like drinking less than I used to, I used to really like drinking. These days, it just kind of makes me feel bad. It used to be really fun and is it fun today, sometimes for a half hour? But it used to be fun for the whole night. And I used to wake up and want to do it again the next day. And now it is like, gives me 10 minutes at best. And then I'm like, I feel rough, I don't want to, you know, like, it, something shifts that starts making it easier to be like, I don't want to do that anymore. It does, it just doesn't bring me the same thing it used to.

• 42:14Speaker 00

  And I, I think that's a, hopefully we can learn to get in touch with what, David Whyte, the British poet, talks about it as, he has a beautiful phrase, which is the getting in touch with the inner voice that represents the leading edge of your maturation.

• 42:38Speaker 00

  That, that phrase has just stuck with me ever since he said it because it's the voice that knows what we want before consciously we do, that already knows that we need something else, that we've matured past, even the behaviors we're still, we're still conducting, we're still exhibiting. Like we're, we might still, you know, we might still be living a life where we're out there hooking up or, you know, at work, we're still a workaholic who can't put it down, who works every weekend and whatever, but it doesn't feel the same anymore. And something has changed and we, maybe we can't articulate it because we're not in touch with that voice.

• 43:22Speaker 00

  But it, it's already shifted. We just, it shifted beyond where we are, we just haven't connected with it yet.

• 43:31Speaker 00

  And that certainly happened for me before I knew consciously what was happening. And that was, for me, that was why someone was able to come along, Audrey was able to come along and, and, you know, she, she, she showed up in a way that spoke to that part of me. That she was such an evangelist for relationships. Like she had no uncertainty about how awesome relationships were. She was like, what are you talking about? They're the best, like having a great relationship, finding a great relationship. Like what is more important than having an amazing, like finding that connection? Like it's amazing.

• 44:15Speaker 00

  It was like, she was, it was like, I don't, the way you're thinking about it is just goofy. Like I, I'm not, like, relationships are incredible. And she was so certain about that. And then when you combine that level of certainty about the thing that, you know, someone is deliberating over, which by the way, is very powerful on its own. It is very powerful. We're always looking for those certain forces in the world to help guide us and help us figure out what is important. When I go into a clothing store and, and there's a jacket, I don't know what I'm doing. You know, I pick up that jacket, I'm like, I think this is nice. And then someone comes over and says, that looks great on you. You know, it looks really, really good.

• 45:00Speaker 00

  And that jacket's been really popular this season. But I'm like, okay, I think I probably should get it. And they're like, you should definitely get it. Whatever, I'll get the jacket. You know, I'm looking for certainty and a lot of people are that way in relationships. They, we, we, I think we give each other too much credit, actually. You, like, people don't know what they want half the time. We're all just figuring it out. And what I want three years from now might be different from what I want today. So how seriously should I take what I want today? It's an ever evolving thing.

• 45:35Speaker 00

  But when someone comes along with that degree of certainty and at the same time is, has standards for what they will and won't accept. Like Audrey once said to me, like I'm, you know, I was kind of, I guess on some level, it's not that from anything I said, but on some level she could feel I was, like she was having to kind of pull me through the early stages when we were first dating. And she's, one day she just said to me, listen, like,

• 46:05Speaker 00

  in six months, if you decide I'm not for you, that's okay. You're allowed to do that. I might decide you're not for me.

• 46:17André Duqum?

  Don't like that one as much.

• 46:18Speaker 00

  Didn't like that one.

• 46:20André Duqum?

  Bruce was like, yeah, sounds good.

• 46:23Speaker 00

  What do you mean you might not want me? Well, you will, you shall want me. But she was like, I, I may not, you know, I may decide you're not for me and that's okay. Like we, we don't know, we don't know. No one's making anyone sign in blood here. Like we're just giving this relationship a try. But if you aren't, like if you're half in, half out while we're giving this relationship a try, I'm not interested. Like I'm giving this an honest try. And we'll, we'll see from that what it can actually be. But if you're half in, we won't even see what this could be. And so with that, like she gave me permission to not have to know the future right now

• 47:06Speaker 00

  and to not constantly fear being the villain if it didn't work out, while also having a standard that said,

• 47:15Speaker 00

  either you give me your best right now, you don't have to give me your best forever, but either you give me your best right now and you give this an honest try, or my, my energy is too valuable and it will go elsewhere. That was a very, very powerful combination.

• 47:35Speaker 00

  So I, I, commitment psychology is, is very, very interesting to me. Not in a sense of like us manipulating each other, but in the sense that I think we often underestimate our influence when we show up into people's lives, you know.

• 47:51Speaker 00

  And I think we don't, we often under, we, we underestimate how much our own psychology on these things can be influenced and can change. And what we used to value is just not what we value today.

• 48:12André Duqum?

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• 48:56André Duqum?

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• 49:19Speaker 00

  The second point you made was about the try, you know, like the, we expect too much from a partner. I think this is a really interesting one because I'm curious to know from you, people say this, right? Like we expect too much from our partners.

• 49:37Speaker 00

  And I think sometimes people hear that message and they, it actually plays into their commitment phobia. Because they're like, but I don't want to settle. I don't want to be with a partner who I can't have great conversations with. You know, like some people will say, you don't have to get amazing conversation from your partner. You've got friends and you've got other people, like your partner doesn't have to be everything. But then if someone really values great conversation, they're like, but wait, that sounds awful that I'm not with someone who I can have great conversations with. So I think that that, that almost can be a trigger for commitment phobia in people or it can re-trigger people's commitment phobia. What's your definition of like,

• 50:23Speaker 00

  like what do you think we should expect from a partner? And what should we start making more peace with not getting from a partner?

• 50:33André Duqum?

  I mean, I've experienced it in a couple relationships, especially one that was like around COVID time. You know, where there's this physical sort of isolation of spending so much time in the four walls of a home.

• 50:47André Duqum?

  I think.

• 50:50André Duqum?

  I truly value communication and play and things that I, for me, are needs in a relationship. There's something, I think, so nice about when that need is spread a little bit between a community of friendships and other relationships that also provide that. Just because it's like outsourcing that need, which is a very real human need in all of us to varying degrees, is placed on one person, then when it's not fully met, or they have other interests as well, and your time is taken up either caring for a child, building a business and whatnot, then to me, in my experience, it's like puts a lot of burden,

• 51:33André Duqum?

  like burdensome energy on the relationship. The question was like, what am I expecting to get versus offload?

• 51:41Speaker 00

  I guess, do you see commonly areas where people are expecting too much? And like, because I speak to a lot of people who are like, yeah, but this thing's really important to me. Like, when do you decide something is like, no, no, no, I have to get this no matter what from a partner versus, yeah, I don't need my partner to be that because I have other people in my life that can be that. And I guess in a way what I'm saying is, you're talking about like, having something that maybe your partner can provide some of, but can be spread around so that it's not all dependent on your partner.

• 52:24André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 52:25Speaker 00

  There are plenty of people who are in relationships who go, my partner's not that deep. It's not that I get this sometimes from my partner and sometimes from other people. I don't get this from my partner. And the depth that I seek, I end up getting it from my friends who are much better at it. You know, like, these are the areas that I think people are really struggling because they're like, is that a good example of, we expect too much from our partners when, you know, we can have a whole tribe who's giving us different things and your partner can be companionship and they can be security and they can be love and they can be like

• 53:08Speaker 00

  fun and they can be, you know, you can raise a family together and you can like, they don't also need to be the best conversation you have.

• 53:17André Duqum?

  I totally think it's a case by case basis too, because I have friends who are like, I want this ultimate spiritual companion partner where we build and all this stuff. And then after 10 years of doing that, it was like, honestly, I just want more traditional style wife, for better or worse.

• 53:33Speaker 00

  Or like someone who's actually like contributing more to the house or.

• 53:37André Duqum?

  Yeah, who loves that and like, that's their Dharma and what they like, they wanna be a stay at home mom. And like, then they build with other people and.

• 53:46Speaker 00

  And in that example, they're like stuck with someone whose head is in the clouds and is like not.

• 53:53André Duqum?

  Right.

• 53:54Speaker 00

  They're great at that like depth and, you know, pontificating the great conversations of the universe, but when it comes to like loading the dishwasher, they're like nowhere to be seen.

• 54:08André Duqum?

  It sounds funny, but I feel like it does come down to discovering what is actually essential in your value system for a partnership, which is of course a case by case basis. But when you, to bring it back to that love is blind example, you know, and we say we think we want these things, come to find out, we actually have fundamental needs in a romantic partnership that are way more important. And I'm curious, what do you, because it's a case by case basis, and I don't ask for absolutes, but what do you think are those bucket of things that are truly essential for most of us in long-term committed partnership as opposed to the things we say we want and surface?

• 54:47Speaker 00

  Different for different people. I think, I'm a big proponent of figuring out what are the things that for you influence your quality of life more than everything else by huge degrees? And do you know, do you really know what they are? Because sometimes when we're, when we're in the, when we're kind of feel like we're stuck in the dating whirlpool, we can never get far enough to really connect deeply with what those things are.

• 55:25André Duqum?

  Totally.

• 55:26Speaker 00

  And, you know, my God, having a child has given me a completely new appreciation for how hard life would have been if me and Audrey were a bad team. Like if we, if one of us didn't show up or one of us was, you know, just wanted to do this thing and didn't want to get involved here, or was really bad under stress or overwhelmed, became nasty, or if one, like, oh my God, this would, this is already hard.

• 56:08Speaker 00

  It would have, I, and I know this is so many people's reality. I coached these people who, that reality is like, yeah, I chose the wrong partner and I have children with them now. And I now have to figure out how to navigate this situation. It's really, really hard and it's something that, you know, by the way, we're all gonna have our own version of that hard. I've had, like, I don't say this as like, I've got it all figured out. We all have something where we're like, I made my life exponentially harder by getting that wrong or by making that decision. Like I, we all have our regrets.

• 56:48André Duqum?

  And even the things that we got right, like the, any, there's a handful of really beautiful relationships that I think are doing like amazing and they've gone through their own death and rebirth, you know, a renewal of vows, as do most people, you know?

• 57:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, and it wasn't always pretty and it was, it was challenging and so, and you don't know, you really don't know people's relationships from the outside. So like, I think we have to be really, really careful with putting on a pedestal any relationship we, we see, especially when it's just a relationship we follow on social media and where I'm like, I love this couple. I just want to be like, I want what they have. You don't know what they have. You really don't. So I think figuring out what those things are that really mattered to you, I think now having a child, I would look back and give myself, you know, a pep talk on like

• 57:50Speaker 00

  the things that like, Matthew, no matter what, like for God's sakes, like find someone who really like shows up in this department. Like, sure, I've dated people in the past who I know wouldn't have shown up in that department and it would have been a special kind of hell. It's just not a hell that I'd actually encountered because we never got there.

• 58:14André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 58:15Speaker 00

  You know?

• 58:16André Duqum?

  What are those departments?

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• 58:47André Duqum?

  That they need to show up for?

• 58:51Speaker 00

  I mean, recently Audrey overheard me talking to someone else about how much my mental health had suffered because my mornings had been out of whack for so long. And I wasn't saying it to make a point, I was literally, my cousin, I think, asked me about like how I'm doing. I was like, just talking casually about like, oh man, like I'm, just feel like I'm surviving every morning and I'm, you know, getting up later than I want to because I'm so wrecked from sleep. And then I'm like not working out and I'm not, you know, I feel like by the time I

• 59:35Speaker 00

  get to work, it's too late to get to work. And I also feel bad in my body and I'm eating badly. And I was like, it's like my routines have just gotten so messed up. And I was, basically I was saying, I've lost my morning and my morning is like, it's a bit of an unlock for me for everything else, like getting the morning right. That's always been true in my life. And look, we adapt and we figure it out. And if my mornings can't be the mornings they used to be, then you figure it out and that's the new game you're playing. But she overheard me talking about this and she came to me, I don't know, 12 hours later and was like, we were back visiting family in London at the time.

• 1:00:16Speaker 00

  She was like, when we get back to LA, I want to get, I want to like figure out your mornings. Like we have to sit down and figure out your mornings. Like, let's create some kind of structure, let's figure it out. Like we, if we actually put some planning into this, we can get your mornings back. Now, look, that, that's her, like, I might look at her proposal and be like, that's not fair to you. Like that your morning needs to be better too. Let's figure out a compromise. But just the fact that.

• 1:00:48Speaker 00

  That conversation, like her ears were tuned to that. And she was like, this is causing him like, this is a form of like chronic suffering for him right now. And it's throwing him off. That matters to me. We're a team. Like, half the team is struggling right now in this way. That, just that, just like finding a partner who thinks of you in that way and thinks about your experience is, that's probably like the biggest thing. And we have a thing in our relationship, which is like, if you, if you worry about my happiness and I worry about your happiness, we'll always be fine.

• 1:01:33Speaker 00

  Like, if I make sure I'm always thinking about your happiness, which doesn't mean I give you the gift I wanna give you, because we're all very good at that. Like, if you're really good at buying presents for someone or whatever, then you specialize in that. And it may not be the thing they need. You know, they may need something completely different than the thing you're good at giving. If you're truly tuned into what makes them happy, then you're not giving the thing that you have the muscle memory to give. You're giving the thing that's actually gonna make a difference in their quality of life. So we very much have that, that view.

• 1:02:11Speaker 00

  And it's, again, speaking of commitment, like phobia, I, that was one of the biggest things that helped me, was this feeling that this isn't an antagonistic relationship here with being, you know, okay, yes, you get some wonderful things from a romantic relationship, but beneath all of that is a kind of antagonistic, not, I'm not saying I ever felt this consciously, but there's like a, deep down, there's this unconscious assumption that like, there's an antagonistic relationship between what you want and what I want. And that really went out the window, because it was like, no, no, no, like, we're just a team.

• 1:02:55Speaker 00

  What, what's your vision for happiness? Like, what, okay, we can't like, do, we can't give out each other every possible thing on that list, but if we're a person who cares more about that list than anybody else, then I, I take my chances with you. Because there are so many people out there who would do a far worse job of caring about that list. Or frankly, far too many people out there who wouldn't give a shit about the list at all. I don't know if I answered your question or not.

• 1:03:25André Duqum?

  No, I mean, looking for a teammate, somebody who, which I have so much compassion, because I think that a lot of people that are in a relationship, where then they start doing the work, and then they potentially are growing at a different pace, or they discovered these values by nature of being in a relationship. And then there's the added responsibility of the finances and the kids and the enmeshment. And I know you've spoken, you know, at length around how to navigate that, right? Because you might come to find out you have these very essential needs of what you want in a life partner that are not present in the patterns of that partner. But now you're, you're in there, you know, and you have a kid. It's a lifelong shared responsibility and commitment.

• 1:04:09Speaker 00

  And when we're being guided by ego in dating or like insecurity, we're not thinking about those things that are gonna actually determine quality of life later. That's not where our heads are. Our head is at, will this person impress my friends? You know, how good are they gonna look on my Instagram? How much do they look the part? How much do they look like the person that I get to say, I got that person? How much do they trigger me? You know, how much do they, do I feel unworthy? Because this person feels a little bit out of reach all the time.

• 1:04:47Speaker 00

  And so I just, I'm so preoccupied with whether I can secure this person or how I hold on to this person. I never stop to actually ask, what would my life be if I did have this person? If, if I did feel safe? There's something that being, feeling safe in a relationship invites us immediately to ask how good the relationship is. When we never feel safe, we never, that question never comes up. Especially when we're coming from, you know, not feeling worthy ourselves, feeling like we have to prove something, feeling like, you know,

• 1:05:30Speaker 00

  I'm trying to feel like, if I can get this person, I'll finally feel enough. It leaves no space for us to ask, is this a good relationship? Is, does this person show, if, if this person showed up like this for the next 50 years, what would my life be like? If they spoke to me this way forever, what would that be like once we have a kid and they speak this way to me in front of our children? What habits do they have? Or what beliefs do they have? Or what, you know, would I feel comf- I think this is a very telling question, is, it's a morbid question. But if we had kids together.

• 1:06:15André Duqum?

  Me and you?

• 1:06:16Speaker 00

  You and me. If you and me had kids together and I died, would I feel great about the values, the beliefs and the behaviors that my kids would be subjected to? Like, that's a big question. Because when it's us, we're like, we'll put ourselves through an extraordinary amount of pain. Like, we'll be in, for many of us, we will be in a bad relationship. We'll be in a toxic situation. We'll be in a situation where we're disrespected, betrayed, undermined, not valued. And we'll just keep telling ourselves, maybe I can change this person. Or, you know, we'll justify it that way.

• 1:07:01Speaker 00

  Maybe they'll be different someday from now. Or, or maybe I deserve it. Or maybe I don't feel worthy of any better or whatever. Like, there's so much, because of our ego, we, we don't think straight in those ways. The moment there's something outside of ourselves, like a child, who we don't, all we care about is their wellness, their health, their happiness, how they're treated, and all of that ego goes out the window. It's a very clarifying question. And I think most people have relationships that they fought tooth and nail to try to hold on to.

• 1:07:46Speaker 00

  That if they were honest with themselves and said, okay, me and this person have a child, I die. That child now is gonna be subject to all of this person's ways, beliefs, thoughts, the way they show up. How comfortable do I feel with that? I think an extraordinary number of people, it would go, oh my God, I can't leave this earth. I can't leave this earth and leave them to deal with that. But when it's ourselves still on this earth, we'll go, I'll deal with that for another year and see if it gets better.

• 1:08:23André Duqum?

  It's a really good question, because it reveals their character, like who the actual person is, their psychology, their heart, as opposed to what are the things they signal? Or like, are means to come across as attractive?

• 1:08:37Speaker 00

  And it also forces you to reckon with the areas you don't actually like this person. When someone is making us feel insecure, we're not really thinking in those ways. They've triggered us. And when we're triggered, we just wanna feel better again. So I'm like, how can I make you want me so that I can feel confident again? So that I, how can I make you love me or show your love for me so that I feel I can relax and I'm safe? But in all of that scrambling to feel safe, we're not asking, what do we actually fundamentally not like about this person?

• 1:09:20Speaker 00

  What do we not like about the way they treat other people or us? What do we not like about the way they show up in the world? What do we not like about their character? That if our friend did that, we'd be like, what are you doing? We don't, we don't ask those questions. And that, that question forces us, it like shunts us into the reality of, where, where do I actually not like the character of this human being? And the more we can focus on that, the more we can get into that, the more, the more we'll be able to walk away from the wrong relationships.

• 1:10:00André Duqum?

  Yeah, it makes me think about, I just had this guy Jim George, who's like a stillness coach on Dear Human. We were talking before the podcast about just like where I'm at in life. I was saying, I just did this like stint of celibacy and my life is like really full right now. And I'm just like, I'm spending a lot of time alone. And he said, good, you're finally ready to meet someone and to be with someone. And I don't think that someone needs to be fully, of course, self-actualized or completely content on their own or to then be ready for partnership, you know? But it does, like when I'm at this place right now, I'm like, um, you know, I'm open to meeting somebody and seeing what comes in.

• 1:10:45André Duqum?

  I can, I feel like I can view it from more of that clear place of this is a, this is a big decision. Some might say one of the biggest decisions one might make in life. And so it does in a sense, put that pressure on of having high standards. But it also allows me to not choose from a sense of lack, you know, not choose from a sense of like, yeah, feel any perceived sense of inadequacy, I guess, in myself to kind of actually like rise in love and build that partnership, which I, the way that you're speaking about those, those little things, those moments where someone shows up as an act of service and like saying, hey, like to me, that's, those are the most important moments of how love expresses.

• 1:11:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I think what you're saying is very, very interesting because when we, I've heard a lot of people who are very into self-growth describe what they find to be like, now that I've done all of this growth, my pull is tiny. Because the, the implication is that no one has like become as wonderful as me. So now that I'm here, it's like, there's so few people who have like done that work and are emotionally in tune and are this and are that and whatever.

• 1:12:11Speaker 00

  And you're not saying that, but that, that's, I think, a trap that a lot of people who are very, like, in some ways that have like OD'd on self-development, become like the unattainable person who sees through the matrix and everyone else just sucks now. And I, I found that the more I let go of my own ego in, in these situations and the more, in a way, actually, the more space I made for my own imperfections for the fact that I'm not like the catch I thought I was.

• 1:12:54André Duqum?

  Always a bummer.

• 1:12:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:12:57André Duqum?

  I'm human too. Okay, actually, that's, it's nice. Take yourself off the pedestal.

• 1:13:01Speaker 00

  Literally, because you go, why, what is this, this thing of like, I'm trying to find someone who's like this and that and that? It's all built on this idea that we're the perfect catch and we're not, like, we are not.

• 1:13:14André Duqum?

  Would you, you forget when you spend so much time by yourself, you're like, oh, it's actually quite good being around myself. Relationship is where you actually realize, oh, I have shit too.

• 1:13:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, you, we, we do and we show up and we're challenging for people and they're gonna have to settle on something. Like, this is the funny realization, like someone else is gonna get with us and they're gonna go, I guess I'll make, I guess I'll make my peace with them. They're gonna not get something. And that's funny to, I wrote about this person in my book, Love Life, that he, he went through his life, like, he said to his mom one day, like, you know, mom, I just, she said, when are you gonna find someone? He said, yeah, I'm trying, mom, it's just like, I've got this vision for who this person is and I just, you know, I really want them to be amazing.

• 1:14:07Speaker 00

  And she looked at him and it was the first time she'd ever said it to him. But she looked at him and she said, I hate to break it to you, but you know you're not perfect, right? And it was a very humbling moment for him because it, it broke this spell of like, I, this is a one-way street where I'm just going out and looking for someone who's, you know, my equal. I, I, I suppose over time, I've thought less in terms of equals and more in terms of what pairings of people bring out the best in each other. And I think that, you know, you're, you're such a humble person and you're,

• 1:14:53Speaker 00

  and by the way, I want to acknowledge something because it is really, really hard to be the guy with a podcast, helping people and running retreats and doing what you do and to be so vulnerable about the fact that you yourself are looking for that in your life. Like, that's, that's not an easy, there's a tension there because it's, you need your love life to unfold in an organic way. And, you know, you don't know if it's gonna be the next person or the fifth person after that. And it adds this whole layer of unnatural pressure that is either conscious or unconscious, but that, but that, I think it just, it's a, it's a unique challenge.

• 1:15:35Speaker 00

  And I, I hope your audience gives you just so much grace because it is really, really hard to be doing what you're doing and to also have this area of, it's an intensely vulnerable thing to be a person who wants to find love but hasn't found love. That's a very vulnerable position. I know, I know it so intimately because I was that person. I was on stage in New York and someone yelled out like, you know, why are you still single? And I like laughed and I said, ha, ha, ha, and I tried to move on. And then all of a sudden, the crowd erupted in unison and went, no, no, no, wait, wait. Why are you still single? Like, no one would let me off the hook on stage in front of a thousand people.

• 1:16:17Speaker 00

  It's a very, it's a very vulnerable, you know, place to be. But the, and the reality and what I said to people at the time is like, for the same reason, you're still single. Like, I, the last person I was with didn't work out. You know, that's why I'm single today. But, so I, I just want to say that because I think it's, sometimes people can take for granted how vulnerable it actually is to talk about that in front of what is a very, very big audience. But I, I do think that the more we genuinely grow, not like ego spiritual, I'm now like this person who has all this knowledge and wisdom grow, but like genuinely grow

• 1:17:01Speaker 00

  and genuinely accept ourselves more. I think that it makes us a more loving companion to other people. And when someone does something, and they will, they will do something that we, maybe they have a little jealous moment, maybe they have a bit of a controlling moment, maybe they have a bit of a like insecure moment. But there's something there and it, there's this, what it is, is just this vulnerable moment. And maybe they didn't handle it the best way. A previous version of us might have been like, oh, hell no, I'm out.

• 1:17:44Speaker 00

  Like, I don't want that. I'm not dealing with this. I'm not. And I'm not saying there are no genuine, there are of course, certain behaviors that if they come up on date two, it's like, don't waste your time, like, it's not worth it. But, but there are very human things that happen. I think a, a younger version of, certainly a younger version of me would have judged, would have had some contempt for, would have, and it would have been the reason why it stopped there and then. And I, I think of the grace that was given to me by my wife, Audrey, and like the things that she chose to like have a generous interpretation of

• 1:18:29Speaker 00

  or to give me like a chance to like, hey, that's not okay. Like, I get you were feeling this or whatever, but next time you're feeling that this has to happen instead. Or there was a firmness there, but a loving firmness. And it really was an, it became an invitation to me to be the best person I've ever been in a relationship. And I, I, we're in a world now where we can't wait to, like, people can't wait to make a TikTok video about how crazy their last date was or how shitty the last person they dated was or,

• 1:19:12Speaker 00

  and it's a dangerous culture because it, it often forgets a simple truth, which is like, we, we blossom around some people and not around others. And I'm not talking about here, you're like textbook narcissists and all of that, a different category. But the rest of the world, you know, they become better around some people, more confident, more comfortable in their own skin, they feel more insecure around other people or more anxious or go to a, a, anxious, like rumination cycles, depending on how that person shows up.

• 1:19:55Speaker 00

  You know, when, when an anxious meets an avoidant and an avoidant feels a modicum of anxiety that they feel is represented by a little bit of pressure.

• 1:20:08Speaker 00

  The avoidant gets pushed to a more extreme version of avoidance. And it's like now they might shut down. Well, that now has an impact on this person. That anxious person now gets pushed to a more extreme version of themselves. So they now start acting out in ways that they're ashamed of and embarrassed by and will look back on and go, I can't believe I did that in that relationship. But this combination of two people pushed each other to versions of themselves that certainly wasn't a blossoming. And in the right relationship, that person who might lean anxious might become the most secure they've ever felt.

• 1:20:52Speaker 00

  And when they become more secure, they become more confident. When they become more confident, they become more sexy to the person they're with, and the person they're with gets even more attracted. And it just becomes this like upward cycle. So I, I, I think in terms of those like almost upward cycles and downward cycles in relationships. And I think the more, I don't think we should give everyone a thousand chances. Don't get me wrong. But I think the more we're able to see someone generously and to make space for the fact that like this might not be an immediate reason to judge or have contempt for this person. This might, me showing a bit of, um, me making space for this person and their humanity right now.

• 1:21:37Speaker 00

  It's also, it might also be the thing that I have always needed as well. And I think there is a gift when someone does it for us, especially in the areas where we have historically felt a lot of shame and not felt we were good enough or felt we wouldn't be accepted if we were honest about that. Or if we, you know, if we were jealous in that way or acted out in that way, then someone would suddenly decide we were too insecure and, you know, unattractive for them. When someone makes space for us in that way, um, I think it's a real invitation to be like, wow, someone showed me that grace, someone exercised the most generous interpretation of me.

• 1:22:20Speaker 00

  Am I doing that for other people?

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• 1:23:26André Duqum?

  There's this quality I love in people sometimes when, uh, like, you ever had like a friend going through something really challenging? Maybe like a physical thing and they like can crack a joke while they're still like in it? Or they have this like, sort of like meta-awareness of they're, they're, they're able to break the identification with being in the moment to kind of joke about it. Or to me, there's this gap, like the, the gap in between stimulus and response, you know, where somebody's, for example, could be,

• 1:23:55André Duqum?

  you know, even just burnt out from a week of travel and taking care of a kid. But they have this bandwidth, this capacity to still be present to somebody else's reality and say, pull them to the side and be like, we're a team here. Like, I want, I want to see if we can protect your mornings, you know? Um, that to me is like a quality that, just even in this conversation, I'm also realizing I really value is, is, uh, there's this like attunement to a space where you can still honor your needs, but you're really attuned to and you have capacity for to show up in a way that's bigger than just your own narrative, you know? Um, there's like, there's something in that that I think I really, really cherish.

• 1:24:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's a, you put it beautifully. That, I, God, I think we all can benefit from, uh, I think it could, even if we wanted to frame that selfishly, it's beneficial to be like that in life. Because it's just, the, a recipe for unhappiness is just living in all of the ways we feel that we're struggling or our life is hard. Or like what's going on with us, like it's,

• 1:25:07Speaker 00

  I, one of the greatest gifts that my career has given me is putting me around people who are in pain and who are going through their own struggles and to sit and commune with those people and listen to those struggles. Because it just gets you out of that navel gazing posture that so many of us live in. And it's a natural thing. We, we live worrying about the next threat to us. We live worrying about the next doubt we have about something or the next, you know, it, but there is, making space for another person is not just a gift to them. I think it's a gift to ourselves as well.

• 1:25:50Speaker 00

  Cause I can for a second stop fucking thinking about myself and think about you instead. And what do you need? And how do I, how do I give you more of that? I think that's a, that's a recipe for happiness. And it's a, that's actually a, it's like, uh, a real genuine win-win. You know, Christopher Hitchens used to talk about giving blood. It's like a true win-win. You know, I give something that's of value.

• 1:26:24Speaker 00

  Uh, it gets replaced in my body anyway, but now someone else has blood and I've done, I've, I've been able to give something. But what you're talking about to me is the same thing. It's like a genuine win-win. We get out of our own heads and into somebody else's challenges.

• 1:26:44Speaker 00

  And it makes our relationship better.

• 1:26:46André Duqum?

  Yeah, there's, anyone who's like given feels that oftentimes they can receive more than the person who they're giving to. Because there's this like regenerative quality, you know? Whether it's just a presence you afford somebody, a donation, a gift, an act of service. I know certainly like,

• 1:27:08André Duqum?

  um, you know, a couple of examples come to mind where the person like was so, so thankful for something that I like showed up for them. But to me, it's like, I, I felt like I even received more than they did. And that, that spirit, I guess, that kind of orientation and relation and relating feels like a really fruitful way to not build a relationship, but also just build a life.

• 1:27:27Speaker 00

  Yeah. Now, there would be some people who had the complete opposite challenge where they will say, my thing is I go into relationships and I just give everything. And I'm constantly trying to make this person happy. And I'm constantly subjugating my own needs and forgetting about myself in the process. And I'm like, non-stop struggling, but all I do is worry about them.

• 1:27:53André Duqum?

  Right.

• 1:27:55André Duqum?

  Yeah, cause it takes two to tango, right? I mean, I know.

• 1:28:00André Duqum?

  In my immediate family, you know, like that was, that's a big thing, you know? Where there's just this sacrificial energy of catering to everyone's needs and showing up to be of service. But it's not reciprocated. And, um, I think a lot of people struggle too, because there is that codependency when it's taken too far.

• 1:28:19Speaker 00

  Yeah. It's, it's a, there's a, you know, I think what we have to admit to ourselves in those scenarios is that there's,

• 1:28:32Speaker 00

  there's something by giving as much as we are, especially when it compromises our lives or our needs. Would, there's some feeling of, it's not, we're not just doing that from a generous place. There's some feeling of safety or, uh, inner peace we're trying to achieve by maintaining whatever status. Like, we either believe that this is our value to the relationship. And that if we weren't doing that for this person, we would have no value to the relationship. It's how we get our significance. It's how we keep relationships. Cause we think that if I stop doing this, they won't, they won't love me anymore.

• 1:29:17Speaker 00

  They won't be with me anymore. Or we can't handle the guilt that we feel if we don't do that thing for somebody.

• 1:29:27Speaker 00

  And so we're willing to, you know, put ourselves through suffering to give to somebody else because we'll feel guilt if we don't.

• 1:29:38Speaker 00

  So there's a, there's so much there. But it's not just, it doesn't just come from generosity. It usually, it's a fear-based giving.

• 1:29:47André Duqum?

  Yep.

• 1:29:49André Duqum?

  Yeah, which on the surface can look similar, but upon deeper examination, they're like worlds apart. What, uh, what do you think that woman might find themselves hard to, to admit? But that are their fundamental needs in a relationship that maybe is different from a man's needs in, in relating in a relationship that they might be,

• 1:30:16André Duqum?

  have resistance to admitting that their needs are?

• 1:30:20Speaker 00

  God, I consider myself to be pretty poor on this subject. And it might be because inherently.

• 1:30:29Speaker 00

  I'm not convinced that the

• 1:30:34Speaker 00

  I'm not convinced that the differences

• 1:30:38Speaker 00

  are what the internet makes them. So, you know, like I

• 1:30:44André Duqum?

  The internet is always right, bro.

• 1:30:45Speaker 00

  Right, especially on the relationships between men and women. Um, I

• 1:30:54Speaker 00

  I suppose

• 1:30:58Speaker 00

  look, I think

• 1:31:00Speaker 00

  I used to say, um what did I, there was something I used to say that like was a great thing to say to a guy. By the way, I still believe it. I like, I still think it's kind of true, right?

• 1:31:14André Duqum?

  In regards to like acknowledgement?

• 1:31:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, like a good, a good line to say to a guy. I'm trying to, let me think of a couple. So there was like, you're such a guy. Right? If you, if a guy does something, you go, you're such a guy. For a lot of men, there's something inbuilt that makes us feel like, you know, kind of good when someone says that. Cause it's like, oh, I'm doing something that men do, you know, like I'm a man. So it reinforces this feeling of masculinity.

• 1:31:45Speaker 00

  Or if a woman says to a guy, um

• 1:31:51Speaker 00

  which is a compliment that has meant something to me in the past, and I do put it, put a decent amount of it down to being a guy is, um, I feel really safe when I'm with you. Like that, that stuck with me.

• 1:32:08Speaker 00

  And it didn't stick with me just on a human level. I think it stuck with me because of an egoic male kind of idea of how I want to, as a man, make a woman feel.

• 1:32:18André Duqum?

  Right.

• 1:32:18Speaker 00

  Right? So, you know, I

• 1:32:23André Duqum?

  There's something with that, the acknowledgement though, that I think men are just so silent with their emotional inner landscape, that when it's seen, it's appreciated in a way we don't always admit.

• 1:32:34Speaker 00

  Yes. Yeah. I, I a hundred percent. And, you know, guys more than they most will ever let on are insecure about their masculinity, their ability to live up to whatever ideal they think they have to represent as a man. Do I measure up to other men? Can I compete? Can I, you know, be this, all these different things that I'm supposed to be? So, you know, men have grown up in a world that's still very much putting that in their face. I joked with Audrey the other day that like, how many rom coms are there where the, the

• 1:33:20Speaker 00

  woman somehow is mildly insulted by somebody else?

• 1:33:27Speaker 00

  And the guy just, the, the, the leading man just punches him. That just floors him.

• 1:33:34André Duqum?

  Right?

• 1:33:35Speaker 00

  Like, and these are rom coms. These are not like deep, you know, like

• 1:33:38André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:39Speaker 00

  They're, it's like,

• 1:33:41Speaker 00

  but we've been like, we've grown up on these movies where as a man, the sexy thing to do, and she always finds it like, she's always enamored by it. The sexy thing to do is someone says something, uses words and those words are so triggering that what must happen next, if you're a man, if you are not to like walk away with your towel between your legs in shame, is to punch the guy. This is apparently a world where lawsuits just don't exist. Like where no one gets sued for any, like, no, it's just, that's the end of that.

• 1:34:23Speaker 00

  And she's like, you're awesome. I just never, you know, I've been looking for a guy who will punch someone for me. And you're it, you know, it's, and it's often, by the way, not like mister like it's like Q Grant or something, you know? I that's the world men have been brought up in. So I think that men, many men live their lives in this quiet angst of like, do I, do I compare? Am I living up to what I'm supposed to be as a man? Am I doing it right? And when a woman comes along and validates him as a man,

• 1:35:05Speaker 00

  there is something very intoxicating about that.

• 1:35:11Speaker 00

  I, you know, it's a trick, I, I find it weird. I find it hard to talk about in a sense because I think that

• 1:35:21Speaker 00

  it's like the, I it works. That works and it works for sound psychological reasoning. But I also wanna live in a world where men and women actually are much more understanding of the complexity in each other. That like, it's not, he doesn't wanna be that all the time. He doesn't wanna feel pressured to like be this thing that's like, he's been taught he has to be by like some alpha podcaster who's made him feel like this is what you have to be as a man. You have to do, you know, some form of martial arts as your hobby. And you have to do this and you have to do that. And you have to like

• 1:36:04Speaker 00

  work out this much. And if someone disrespects you, like there's a, it's so two dimensional. It also, by the way, it, it two dimensionalizes women.

• 1:36:16Speaker 00

  Like that, all women apparently are just singularly interested in this very narrow slither of a description of what it is to be a man, when in reality, women are so much more interesting than that. It's like, to me, it demonstrates this fundamental lack of interest, a lack of understanding of women too.

• 1:36:37Speaker 00

  But I, but it works, but should we use it as much as we do? And like, I, so there's, there's there's that. I'm not saying there's no differences between men and women. I just, I I sometimes, I think that the, the line, it gets really, I think it's way more complex than people make it out to be. Cause in reality,

• 1:37:04Speaker 00

  you know, I mean, my God, Audrey came along and, you know, she, you know, it's like, I was like typically when she came into my life, like the masculine energy of like ambitious and get after it and do this and do that and go, and you know, she came along and she was like, I like this, this, it was fun for her. She was like, I, you know, like all of that energy activated in her. So was that like a difference between, like, you know, was that my masculinity coming? As I guess someone would say, well, no, she was tapping into her masculine energy by doing that. And okay, but, but it all becomes a little bit

• 1:37:47Speaker 00

  semantic at that point, doesn't it? Cause all we're really then saying is there's different, people have different collections of energies depending on the day or the situation or the time. And, um, we're gonna, anytime it represents these qualities, we're gonna call it masculine. And anytime it's these qualities, we're gonna call it feminine. But I think I'm, I, I, I do things in my life that I are more typically associated with masculine energy. I do things in my life that are much more typically associated with feminine energy. I think that's what makes an interesting person.

• 1:38:22André Duqum?

  Yeah. The, the tendency, I think, to simplify is always reduce people into an object that operates in a certain way as opposed to a complex system and psychological makeup that needs different things at different moments. There of course are patterns differently within our biology, you know, I think in terms of the programming that's just baked in to being a man, for example, or, or a woman that like really loves a level of communication and emotional intimacy that is simple to provide.

• 1:38:55André Duqum?

  That is good to know and that you discover in relationship is, is valuable. But then ultimately I do agree, like the more people dive into presence, the, the boundaries of the identifications of men and woman and masculine and feminine, you know, sort of dissolve into the background. And it's like two human beings who have needs and to be present for each other.

• 1:39:16Speaker 00

  Yeah. It sort of allows you to meet your partner where they're at without the assumptions. And look, sometimes like it will be like you'll both be exactly the stereotype. Audrey wants to talk like four times as much as I do. She just does like I, I have to like at certain points be like, I'm gonna give her more conversation because it's important to her, but I just don't wanna talk as much. I'm like, we're like the, you know, in the movie Up, where the little girl is just talking nonstop and the boy is just really loves her. And he's just like sitting and listening to everything she's saying.

• 1:39:55André Duqum?

  It's funny because I saw, I saw the complete opposite at Charlie's when we were hanging out and you were like, you were talking, you were yapping your your tail off. And then Audrey was like, let's go.

• 1:40:05Speaker 00

  People are gonna listen to this conversation and go, I wouldn't have known Matt from how much you've been talking to this conversation. So, you know,

• 1:40:13André Duqum?

  In the right moments, pick your moments.

• 1:40:15Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. But I, I

• 1:40:20Speaker 00

  yeah, it's true. But again, like that's, that's just interesting. That's, even that is interesting to me because it, again, it blows the minds.

• 1:40:31Speaker 02

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• 1:41:31André Duqum?

  What's one illusion that was shattered that you had going into this idea of starting a family? And maybe like a rose colored glasses tint that you had about that? And then what's one unexpected joy that you didn't know was possible?

• 1:41:46Speaker 00

  I mean, the illusion, I think, is that, you know, nothing's gonna... Not nothing's gonna change, I certainly wasn't that naive, but just the idea that... You know, the kind of like, will this baby's gonna work around us? We're not gonna like suddenly shape our entire lives around the baby. And then the reality of a baby arrives and it's this person that you just...

• 1:42:13Speaker 00

  You know, certainly in my case, I instantly fell in, you know, like madly, madly in love with, like, I just wept the moment I saw him. And, and I was even worried, I was like, I said to Audrey, you know, you have these kind of... You do, you think about that, am I gonna feel how I'm supposed to feel? And I really hope I do, and oh my god, what if I don't? And I had nothing to worry about on that level, because I just instantly, reflexively broke down with love for this little person who arrived five seconds prior.

• 1:42:52Speaker 00

  Immediately, it just reorients your world. I mean, you, your precious routines and the things that, you know, the things that you say aren't gonna change, even though you accepted, yeah, of course, these things were all gonna change and they'll have to, and that's part of the process, but these things were not gonna change, you know, then you go, oh no, those went too. That all changed as well. And you, and I won't say like you don't mind, because you do mind. You feel yourself gaining weight every week and you don't like yourself as much in the mirror and you're like, this is like, you know, this is getting me down a bit now.

• 1:43:33Speaker 00

  But also, you do, you know, you know, it's for a really great reason as well. And so, I don't know, I, you know, our, our, our dating life as a couple, you know, just the, the idea that like, we're gonna get back to it and we're gonna plan that time. We do, I think actually, we do a pretty good job of that, but it still leaves us wanting massively. So, I just think, I don't, I, it's hard, I mean, it's a cliche, but I do think it's hard to prepare yourself for just how much change is overnight.

• 1:44:09Speaker 00

  What surprised me in a good way?

• 1:44:14Speaker 00

  I don't, I mean, you hear a lot, I hear a lot of guys who say like, you know, I had a lot of like, guys preparing me for the fact that, you know, it doesn't get interesting until later, but, you know, you, you get through the baby phase and they don't give you much back, which I always thought was funny, like the idea, this is the least selfish thing you're ever gonna do. And like, you're defining the first year by how much you get back from a baby. But like, I would hear a lot of men sort of, and they don't, get me wrong, they're well-meaning, it's like a well-intentioned thing, like, don't worry if initially you don't connect, or you don't feel like it's awesome in all of the ways you thought, you

• 1:44:57Speaker 00

  know, like, they're a bit boring to begin with, but once they get a personality and whatever, it gets better. I've not, I've not found my son boring, I, I've found him like, he's so funny from like, very, from the beginning, just funny. And, you, I don't know, I, I found it fascinating the whole way through and so connected. I don't, it, it does, there are boring moments, don't get me wrong, like, there's only so many times you can, like, he will find the same joke funny thirty times in a row, and by the thirtieth time, I'm like, alright, I need to like, can, can you hold him for a second?

• 1:45:40Speaker 00

  Because like, my legs are hurting and I'm like, so you, like, there are moments where it's like, you know, I don't think enough people admit that, like, mums too, I think mums feel this pressure to, to like, talk about it like it's just always amazing being a mum, but I, mums get bored, you know, they're like, I have, like, like, this is a lot on the third hour, like, and now it's like, I need him to go down for a nap, because it's just like, this has been a lot of the same thing for the last three hours. I think people should talk about that more. But, um, but I have been pleasantly surprised by how much I didn't need to wait for him to like, I don't know, show his personality before I found it awesome.

• 1:46:27André Duqum?

  How have you navigated as a type A, success achievement oriented person historically?

• 1:46:35André Duqum?

  How you've had to like, be kind to yourself as you're eventually inevitably gonna fail and not be the optimized Matthew you once were?

• 1:46:43Speaker 00

  Yeah. I think the operative word was historically, because I, I do feel like I'm not that person who, I still have, you know, there's still that part of me that's like, gets excited by the next challenge or whatever, but not, not in the same, not quite in the same way, like, I don't, I really just, these days, the two things in my life that really matter to me, let's say three, is like peace, simplicity. And for me, peace is also feeling safe, like, I just, I, you know, safety is a thing that

• 1:47:28Speaker 00

  I haven't, that's been in, in, uh, short supply for a decent amount of my life. So, for me, feeling safe is, is hugely important and I equate that with peace.

• 1:47:46Speaker 00

  Simplicity, because for so many years, I just made my life so complicated. I just did way too much, said yes to so much, to, you know, put, trying to like, move forward and grow ahead of other things, ahead of my own health, ahead of my own sanity. And these days, I just, I really want simple. I don't, when we look at our year, and we, we look at our calendar and we start planning out the next year, I'm not planning for like, as many adventures as possible. I'm, I'm looking at it these days going, that feels like one too many flights.

• 1:48:28Speaker 00

  Like, I don't wanna get on another plane, I don't wanna like, can we just do this trip closer to home? Can we, I, I'm, I'm much more about how do we make things simple? Even on a trip, it's like, before it would have been like, let's stay in three different neighborhoods, and now I'm like, let's just stay in the same Airbnb the whole time, where we don't have to pack up and I, and I'm like that in every part of my life. In my organization, I've reduced significantly the number of projects I have, I've reduced the amount of content that I make, like, I'm, I wanna do what I do exceptionally well, but I wanna do less of it.

• 1:49:07Speaker 00

  And I think the third thing is, um, I wanna, I just wanna do things that I'm really, that I feel really connected to and that I really feel proud of.

• 1:49:19Speaker 00

  And I, when I add all of that up, it fits very well with this phase of my life, because it does force you into making certain compromises. And some people make more of those compromises than others, that's the truth, like, some, there are people who have all the money in the world and will just say, I'm gonna throw an army of support at this challenge, so that it doesn't impact my life. And that's okay, like, that's, that's a personal choice, you know, it still impacts those people's lives in a massive way, but they insulate themselves from as much of it as they possibly can.

• 1:50:00Speaker 00

  I'm not built, like, that's just not how I'm engineered, you know, I, I, I've far too much like guilt and feel like, you know, I'm not, I, I'm just not built for that, like, I, I need to be there as much as I possibly can.

• 1:50:20Speaker 00

  So, I, I've had to let go, I've had to let go of so many expectations I've had of myself, so many standards, I, you know, I like, sat here like, pulling down my shirt occasionally, my T-shirt while I'm in this chair and going, let's just, see if I can just like, make sure that's draped in a flattering way, because I have a belly, like, I'm, I'm not, I don't feel great in my body right this second, speak to me in two months, maybe I'll be in a better place. I'm working on it, I'm back in LA, we're trying to get our routines back, I went to the, to do a workout this morning, like, I'm, I'm working on it, but, you know, I, I just have let go of certain expectations I have of myself and what I'm much better at is like...

• 1:51:05Speaker 00

  Just going like that old wiring will reassert itself. And it will like it'll creep back in. And it'll start saying like, why aren't you doing this? You should have done that. You should have woke up early. You could have done that. You could have worked out. You could have got that extra project done. You should have like, you know, you should be making more videos or that. That voice is there. But I'm, I'm a lot better than I used to be at just going, I. You're an insane person. I don't like, this is not, you're come, you're coming from.

• 1:51:43Speaker 00

  A fear or wound or something, you know, like this is not, you're, you, you cannot run our lives.

• 1:51:52Speaker 00

  And I'm much more comfortable with not achieving things. I, I really am. I'm like much more comfortable being less ambitious. I don't, I'm not trying to be the biggest. I'm, I'm, I'm not trying to be like, have the most views or the most this or the most that. I'm just, I'm genuinely not, I'm not trying to build the biggest pile. I wanna, I just wanna do work that I'm really, really proud of. And so I care about my craft. That's the thing that I really care about, but I don't. I really, really have stopped caring to a large degree about.

• 1:52:36Speaker 00

  How much I achieve, cause I've, cause I've done things and realized like I, I can't. It's. I will take that sickness with me to my grave and they'll, I'll have, there are no medals for it. There just are no medals for it. Like it doesn't, it's not gonna make me a happier person. And when I look at the people I really admire in life, like the people that I think are.

• 1:53:06Speaker 00

  The people I wanna be like, they're always the people who just do what they do really well. And without a ton of ego.

• 1:53:17Speaker 00

  And who don't. Especially people who can step away. I'm like, really, I always think.

• 1:53:24Speaker 00

  That they're people I really, really look up to. It's people who are brave enough to step away. Cause I, I for most of my life was not brave enough to step away. And I'm learning, like a toddler, learning to walk. I am learning that skill.

• 1:53:43Speaker 00

  But when people can just go away. I think that's, that's amazing. Like Bo Burnham. He's a bad example because he just comes back and does something that's genius and then fucks off again. Like I just, I, you know, that is a bad example in a way because it's so unrelatable. His level of quality of something he, but like, I love that he just goes away. I love Christopher Nolan for the fact that he comes along and makes The Odyssey. And then we won't hear about Christopher Nolan for four years. That to me is like, and he doesn't have a smartphone and he just disappears and, and works on something.

• 1:54:27Speaker 00

  And again, bad example because he's Christopher Nolan. You know, I need some examples of people who do like mediocre to, to, to like good work sometimes, but like.

• 1:54:36André Duqum?

  Disappear for a little while, come back with something.

• 1:54:38Speaker 00

  Do something pretty good.

• 1:54:43Speaker 00

  But I, I just, that's, I want, I wanna be brave in that way, you know? And again, you don't have to be as brave when you fundamentally change what you value.

• 1:54:56Speaker 00

  And that's what I'm, I've, I'm changing what I value in real time and it's really fun.

• 1:55:02André Duqum?

  Yeah, that's a, it's a nice reframe too. When you shift what you value, it becomes more of a, a byproduct as opposed to like a forceful change or endeavor of behavior.

• 1:55:14André Duqum?

  That's awesome, man. Was there one thing that? From the, the conversation around emotional regulation that I feel like we opened up a bit. But being in partnership as we started by talking about how the greatest mirror potentially in our life. Triggers, challenges are gonna be present, inevitable in every relationship. And I'm curious what you've learned about navigating them fruitfully. How you can navigate your own emotional trigger, how to create safety internally and relationally.

• 1:55:45André Duqum?

  What, yeah, what do you think is really important to remind people around the capacity we have for emotional regulation?

• 1:55:53Speaker 00

  We all know what it is to be triggered, you know? Whether someone makes us feel insecure, someone says something that like immediately makes us feel scared. You know, I coached someone who didn't get invited to something that the person she was dating was holding. And immediately like sabotaged the relationship over it because she was so afraid that like, this was a kind of rejection. That her avoidance just kicked in and made her like push him away.

• 1:56:25Speaker 00

  You know, we, we know what it is to get triggered and then to sabotage. Something, I don't even love that word, but like we. Our best us doesn't come out and we feel out of control. And, and it, there's something very, we get very fatalistic about it because we, most of us have. We know that we've been like this for a good while. And we feel very defeated by the fact that no matter what we do in our lives, no matter how far we go, no matter how. Much we achieve or how much older we get, we, we thought this, we wouldn't be like this anymore. Whatever our like this is.

• 1:57:11Speaker 00

  And we are, and, and it, it makes us feel like we're broken. And it makes us feel like we're never gonna be better. As one woman put it to me, like, she said, I've had lots of. Failed relationships and some of them with people who treated me really, really badly. But I also recognize not in any way excusing their bad behavior. But I recognize when I really look at my relationship history, that my own wounds. Have played a part constantly, whether they have driven people away.

• 1:57:52Speaker 00

  Or whether they've made me choose the wrong people. And she said, I have this fear that I'm never gonna be healed enough. There's not enough time left for me to be healed enough to attract the kind of person I would like to attract. That's a really honest statement. And, and it's a very relatable one for so many people is that like. We just, it's always like too much has happened. I, I'm not, I'm not capable of being like everybody else. And.

• 1:58:35Speaker 00

  When we get triggered therefore, it attaches to a lot of story. About ourselves, about how it's always gonna be this way, we're never gonna be better. And then we get lost in the story. So we get triggered and now we get lost in the story we tell about that trigger and what it means. And, and especially if it's like, I thought I'd made some progress, but now this happened and it feels like I've made no progress. You know, a bit like, you know, an X that you thought you were over. And then something makes you heartbroken about them all over again. And you're like, I haven't. Haven't progressed at all. I'm still thinking about them years on. We're like that with our triggers and.

• 1:59:21Speaker 00

  I think we, we have to get a little better. At letting those thoughts pass when they come up. You know, I heard someone talking about this recently, just very, you know, basic mindfulness stuff, but. So important as to like, I need to think about this every day is, you know, thoughts arise out of nowhere. Like pay attention to that, that they come out of nowhere and that they disappear into nowhere. That once you've had it, where does it go? Goes into nothingness again, just dissolves. And if you can pay attention just to that and observe that.

• 2:00:02Speaker 00

  There's such power to it because we will just start.

• 2:00:08Speaker 00

  Taking everything a bit more lightly that comes into our brain.

• 2:00:14Speaker 00

  And not getting on every train that comes. And when a trigger comes, it. It's possible to be a lot more present with that moment and just say. There's a, the trigger is painful, something's happened. Like it might not even be, because it can get oversimplified, like.

• 2:00:34Speaker 00

  You know, a trigger is like you've given something meaning, like someone has not texted you back. And your brain has given it a meaning that you're not good enough and that's what's triggered you and so on. And that, there's a lot of truth to that, but triggers can also be so instinctive. That you hear, you know, if you've been through certain things in your life and you hear a door slam too loudly or you hear a police siren. All of a sudden your whole body tenses up and you don't feel safe. That's not, your brain didn't, it's not like you went through a whole. Process over several minutes of going, what does that police siren mean? Well, it means danger because of this thing. It's just your body, just your nervous system.

• 2:01:17Speaker 00

  Has just been wired to react to that. And that, that makes us feel very, very helpless. Cause you go, well, how do I, how do I change that? And I, there are schools of thought out there that.

• 2:01:34Speaker 00

  When we get triggered, we're like, we're choosing to get triggered. And I think that that's a really.

• 2:01:42Speaker 00

  I, I find that wildly inaccurate to, I think the science proves it's inaccurate. Trauma research shows how inaccurate that is. But it's, but it's also empirically, you know, like anyone who knows that feeling of like, something happened and instinctively, you didn't choose to get triggered in that moment. It was like someone flicked a light switch inside you. And now you don't know how to get out of that state that you're in. And so the, to me, the, one of the things that when I'm coaching people helps is seeing this without story, but just that something has happened to me.

• 2:02:25Speaker 00

  And, and by the way, like this is an amazing moment for, rather than judgment, self compassion to come in. Cause I'm not choosing to feel shitty right now. Like something just made me feel wildly unsafe in my body. Something just made me feel sick. Something just made me feel terrified. Something's just deeply affected me or made me feel unworthy. That's, something's happened. Something, and it actually gets to be, and I mean this in the very positive sense, actually gets to be a moment where you get to show genuine sympathy for yourself. I think we have this very derogatory way of thinking about feeling sorry for oneself

• 2:03:10Speaker 00

  that is a shame, actually. Cause feeling sorry for oneself is actually very powerful. It, living there and indulging it and never, you know, taking responsibility for doing something about it, of course, that's not going to help us. But it's, there's a, there's a real power to being able to develop genuine sympathy for ourselves. That's a form of self-love and it's one that most of us do not access very easily, if at all. We're great at it with other people. We're terrible at it with ourselves. So these moments are actually a great, like it's a great intercept to be like, wow, something,

• 2:03:52Speaker 00

  something just like completely took over me. What, like, I'm sorry, like whatever has happened in my life has led me to be a person that that can happen to. You know? That means I was in a lot of pain at some point. That means I went through a lot at some point. And it may not be real today. It may be, by the way, my brain could also be telling me something, but maybe it's not real. Maybe it is irrational. Man, I feel sorry for the person who like, you know, jumped out of their skin because of that moment.

• 2:04:29Speaker 02

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• 2:05:30Speaker 00

  And you then, and we could, I won't go into it all because we could talk about this, like this would be a whole other, like multi-hour podcast, but it's, it's then in that moment of self-compassion and self-love, it dissolves some of that tension that we have with this moment where we're resisting it, where we're, we wish it wasn't so, where we are telling ourselves a story of how it's always gonna be this way. And because it's always gonna be this way, no one's ever gonna want us, or we're always gonna, or we're just always gonna be unhappy. Like, no matter what happens in my life, I'm always gonna be unhappy because I can never feel happy.

• 2:06:10Speaker 00

  These are, these are stories that, that we have to recognize as another, it's a, it's another pattern. So it's like we got triggered. It took us to a bad emotional state. And then that, our, our, our well-worn groove is that that, that emotional state takes us into a pattern of catastrophic thinking. One of the, there are many cognitive distortions. Catastrophic thinking is one of them. So, okay, now I, it's like there's a formula here. Got triggered, immediately started beating myself up and feeling shame and self, and contempt for being triggered.

• 2:06:54Speaker 00

  Feel immediately defeated because I've done this so many times in my life. This has happened to me so many times in my life. It's always gonna be this way. And then that takes me into, I, I, it's, it's never gonna change. It's always gonna be like this. Therefore, I'm never gonna be happy. So now we go into a pattern of catastrophic thinking. So the beauty of like mapping these things is we start to realize that there are actually lots of places we can get off. Like this is, this is like a train we've boarded and is taking us all the way now, but it doesn't have to. Like we can, there are so many stops that we can get off. One of them is immediate self-compassion.

• 2:07:38Speaker 00

  One of them is, and you know, reparenting ourselves in that moment, which is a whole other line of, you know, methodology of coaching and it gets into internal family systems and parts work and all of that stuff, which is all very valuable. Another is applying curiosity at the right moment. And, you know, if you're curious about what experimenting in a new way or doing something different can lead to, you can actually create, it's like you can run a thousand different experiments of what happens if I do this in this moment instead of this. And those experiments lead to new, new things happen and those new things that happen lead to new belief systems.

• 2:08:20Speaker 00

  So it's, I'm fascinated by this work, both professionally and personally, because there's no, there's no having a better life without focusing on this. It just doesn't, you can't, you just cannot not do this work, like.

• 2:08:41André Duqum?

  You carry yourself everywhere you go.

• 2:08:42Speaker 00

  Yeah. Doesn't matter what happens, like it's, and I know this in my bones, like I, I know what it is to say, the thing that's really stressing me out is I have too much on my plate. Okay, what's the logical conclusion to that? Get things off your plate. Okay, now you have less on your plate, still just distressed. What the fuck is that? Why? What's happening? Why are you now, you know how we, we like sometimes roll our eyes at like how people at a certain age, you know, then maybe they get to their 80s or they start fretting over things that like, you know, they have to, they have to go and do, or they just have to go and do one thing in their day.

• 2:09:25Speaker 00

  Like I have to go and like, go into the, to the shop and change my like prescription or do this. And it's a big deal. It's like, this is, gets turned into a very stressful thing. But when you're in a period of your life where you're doing a lot of things in a day, that would be just like the 25th thing on the list after all of these really challenging things that you have to do. So it's like, you don't even have the bandwidth to worry about that thing. Like it's not, it can't even register. And then you look at like your elderly parent or grandparent and you're like, how are they stressing this much about this? This is like, this for me is something I would do in five minutes of a morning and they're making this like the big saga of their day.

• 2:10:10Speaker 00

  Right? But I, I've come to look at that very differently. Cause I've watched as I've changed things in my own life that was supposed to be the circumstances that created that feeling inside of me, that feeling of stress or overwhelm. Removed all these things.

• 2:10:35Speaker 00

  And then all of a sudden, my overwhelm goes to something just way smaller. Or a task that like is not that big of a deal. Audrey has, me and Audrey, like, we were laughing because during the book, the last time we met, I was releasing Love Life. And it was hard and it took a long time to write. And, you know, it was, and then it took a long time to get the word out there. And that was a lot of effort. And so it was this big, multi-year project that became, you know, this really heavy thing. And I kept saying like, oh, wow. And when the book is done, it's like, I kept describing this utopia that it would, life would be once the book was out there.

• 2:11:17Speaker 00

  And it's like, now I get to go back to just working in a normal way with the things that were on my plate. It's gonna be, oh, it's gonna feel so easy when I'm not waking up at stupid o'clock to write every morning. And to the, and she would look at me over something that I would do. Like, I would start like stressing over something unconsciously and she'd be like, don't turn this into the new book.

• 2:11:40André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 2:11:41Speaker 00

  Like you're, like, this is not the new, this is not the book. This is just like this week's video, but you've turned it into the book. Because the way my brain has been wired in my life is to look for that next threat.

• 2:12:01Speaker 00

  To look for the next thing that's like, gonna be a real problem if I don't get that done or get that right or whatever. It's trained to find that. And if it can't find it in the big thing, it'll get creative. And it'll look for it in the stupid thing. It'll look for it in the thing that's not like, you know, me and, our favorite place in the world is Japan. We would go there and wake up in the morning with no work because we were like, we're not working for the next two weeks. And I, I'd be like, thinking about like, well, hang on, we don't have a plan for today and we're gonna miss out. Like, she'd be like, what are you doing?

• 2:12:38Speaker 00

  This is like, this is literally the antithesis of the working state. But all you're doing now is bringing the working state to planning the trip.

• 2:12:49Speaker 00

  I, I, the one thing I know I have going for me in my life is that I'm good at putting eyes on myself. I'm really good at calling myself out. I can look at that and go, that's not, that's not right. Like, I, this shouldn't be stressful and it is. What's going on? Hmm, like, this is my nervous system. This is my brain doing what it's learned to do. And if I don't, like, I'm good at looking at that and going, this is the root of everything. Like, this is not, there's nothing more important than this. And I, you know, I wrote down a little while ago, like,

• 2:13:35Speaker 00

  I'm gonna treat my mental health like it is my job. How hard I've worked on everything else in my life, I'm gonna treat this like it's my job. Like, there's nothing more important because there, there just isn't.

• 2:13:52Speaker 00

  Because it's not, there's no amount of change that will, that will fix that. And I, I, I implore everybody out there to take time to look at those, what are those patterns that follow you into every relationship? You can change the person, but the, the pattern keeps following you into each new relationship. What are the, the work stresses that follow you into every piece of work, regardless of whether it's the most stressful piece of work you've ever done?

• 2:14:28Speaker 00

  You know, what are the, what are the triggers that come up for you socially, no matter what situation you're in? Like, that, focusing on that and, and working on those is, I, I think it's the answer to so much. And it, it, to me, is the answer, like, I, there's an event I'm doing later this month called Three Days to Calm, which is about bringing calm back into our lives. Because I actually think that that's one of the highest things we can shoot for. Is we think a lot about happiness, but I actually think calm is the precursor to happiness. Not the kind of like jittery, you know, over-caffeinated, excited happiness

• 2:15:11Speaker 00

  that so many of us feel when we go on a first date that's great. Like genuine, genuine contentment so often. I think it almost always begins with feeling calm again. And so that's the, that's the thing that I'm working with people on right now.

• 2:15:31André Duqum?

  That's your Christopher Nolan, Bo Burnham, disappear, come back, reemerge with something val- super valuable.

• 2:15:37Speaker 00

  Well, don't put that pressure on it. I'll, I'll.

• 2:15:40André Duqum?

  Something all right.

• 2:15:44André Duqum?

  That's awesome, man.

• 2:15:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:15:45André Duqum?

  And, and we will leave links where people can stay connected and find your work, um, which you two have going on. I mean, a lot came up from what you just said. I, I feel like there is that spectrum.

• 2:15:57André Duqum?

  That there is nothing more important in, in essence. And then doing this work and those triggers are where the opportunity is most present to really do the work.

• 2:16:07Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 2:16:07André Duqum?

  And no amount of self-improvement, I think, is gonna make up for a lack of self-acceptance. You know, because we can always then turn that project back on us. And then we keep reinforcing this narrative that we are an unending, broken thing that needs mending. And, um, and like that balance of acceptance and then working with the material that's present is a, is a, is a dance.

• 2:16:29Speaker 00

  It's a, it, it seems paradoxical, but I, it's not.

• 2:16:32André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 2:16:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's not. It's, it, the, I, I love that you said that because you're right. It is a dance between those two things. And I think that my self-acceptance to me, I don't think has, when it's true self-acceptance, I don't think it's ever led to apathy. I think that's, or, or lack of accountability. I think true self-acceptance has always led in the direction of humility, in the direction of self-love, in the direction of, um, being a better friend to myself.

• 2:17:12Speaker 00

  And when you're being a good friend to yourself or anybody, you encourage them. You wanna make their life better. You wanna, you know, nudge them along in directions that could help them. So you, you know, it's the opposite of, well, this is me, so fuck it.

• 2:17:32André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 2:17:32Speaker 00

  I can't, I can't do anything about it. It's like, no, no, I, I accept that I'm not, you know, I find it hard to be happy sometimes. Or I accept that I'm, I struggle a little more than other people do in this department, it seems. Or that, you know, or that things have happened in my life that have made it a real challenge to, to just walk in an area where other people seem to be sprinting.

• 2:18:00Speaker 00

  That's self-acceptance, but it doesn't, it's not a, it's not a verdict on what you're capable of.

• 2:18:10André Duqum?

  And we can all, I think, often conflate the speed at which people are doing things with what's a worthwhile direction. You know, and to me, this journey, if I could use a fluffy term, it does feel like it's an earth school. Like, this is like the curriculum we're here to, to take in many ways. And it's that journey from unconsciousness to consciousness, from reactivity to consciously responding. And that's why, you know, when I think of stress as like, in some ways, it's like resistance to existence. You know, it's, it's, it's something that in my eyes can be optional, although sometimes inevitable.

• 2:18:51André Duqum?

  There is this, I, um, I think there's actually nothing inherently stressful. And that sounds kind of counterintuitive, paradoxical and silly to people that are, you know, we're gonna encounter what seem like to us objectively stressful situations in life. But to me, it brings, it brings freedom into the picture. If nothing's inherently stressful and it's how I'm responding to something, then like freedom actually comes into the picture. And when it comes to these emotional triggers, I'm curious your perspective on because.

• 2:19:22André Duqum?

  When something happens where it brings us into a more unconscious reactive emotional state of being, then to me, the reason why it's sad and also an opportunity for growth is because then I'm relating to you from my own idea of myself, my own narrative, and intimacy is broken in that state. And I want to live in intimacy with life.

• 2:19:46Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:19:47André Duqum?

  And so this is to where me, addiction, like the greatest thing we're addicted to is our own idea of ourself. And when I had this conversation with John Vervakey on our collective call, he talked about this idea of reciprocal narrowing. It's like addiction is reciprocally narrowing on something of, you can never get enough of something that almost works. And whether that's the idea of ourself or a literal substance that is more obvious, you're focusing, you're narrowing reciprocally, circling on this thing, as opposed

• 2:20:26André Duqum?

  to reciprocal opening, which is like responding, spaciousness, and consciousness is like in the other direction. It's like a spectrum of like narrowing versus opening. And to me, the way that you're talking about meeting these emotional triggers with being able to actually respond, it's like finding your breath in those moments where you run a trigger, get curious, which is something that you said, which I absolutely love, and I think is essential. And then you actually have the best opportunity and chance to even work with these things. Otherwise, you're just bouncing triggers back and forth and, you know, it's like a dog chasing its own tail endlessly.

• 2:21:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, you get to experiment, which is that, that's where you're proactively engaging in the widening that you're talking about. And I think actually humility is very, very, it's a powerful emotion to tap into when you're experimenting. Because there is something, whenever we say like, you know, you don't get it, this is like, this is just how it is for me, or, you know, this is the way life is, nothing good about this, that, or the other, like anytime, anytime you use statements like that, there is a kind of,

• 2:21:51Speaker 00

  not that we mean it to, of course, but there is a kind of arrogance, I like to think of it as an arrogance, that like, I know how life is, as opposed to, it's like, it's the same as saying like, what has happened, or what I've experienced so far, is all that can be experienced. How I've been is the only way to be. The results I've gotten are the only results that are available. And I think there's something mind blowing about

• 2:22:30Speaker 00

  the fact that like, everyone, everyone is living different lives. Like, you, you're already better than me at things that might take me many years yet to just get to a place where I'm like, decent in that area. Like, there will be things that come naturally to you that I could just learn so much from sitting with you and picking your brain and just, just looking like, so wait, how do you think of that? Like, why doesn't that bother you? Why, like, what, it's like, it's like if a jealous person in a relationship sits with a person who doesn't get jealous, in a different relationship, a good friend

• 2:23:15Speaker 00

  who will just sit with you and be honest, and you say, okay, but in that moment, when this thing happens, do you get jealous? And they go, no. And you go, tell me everything about that. Like, tell me what, how, what's happening in your brain? What decisions are you making about what things mean or don't mean, or where, like, because if you really, if you really get curious, that's where curiosity comes in again, you will find that there are moments where something happens and you go left and they go right. And understanding those moments is, there's a whole world there. And you'll find that if the next time that

• 2:24:00Speaker 00

  happens to you, you try going right instead of going left, life will also respond to you differently. There will be other things that happen that you're not used to happen, like, things you, that just aren't in your reality right now, because you never go right in that moment, you always go left, something new will happen. By the way, sometimes it will be good, sometimes it will be bad, like, sometimes it will be worse, but something different will happen. And the key is realizing the different is possible. It doesn't even need to be the different that leads to the life you want right now. I think that a great key to life is just showing yourself that some other result than the result you are

• 2:24:45Speaker 00

  used to is possible. Because it's like inception, it's like that plant's an idea in your brain. And the idea is that the way you, however you've experienced the world, isn't actually the only way that the world can be experienced.

• 2:25:03André Duqum?

  Thank God.

• 2:25:04Speaker 00

  Yeah. And I, just messing with that belief system has a value, all on its own. That's all you need, you don't need to think about like getting everything you ever wanted right now, or getting all of the right results. Just mess with your belief system. And get around people who, just being around them is to mess with your belief system. Like, you can't be near these people without having your belief system messed with. Like, I, that to me is, there's something transcendent about it. And it leads to interesting places,

• 2:25:47Speaker 00

  and it gets us out of that, what did you call it, the reciprocal?

• 2:25:50André Duqum?

  Narrowing.

• 2:25:51Speaker 00

  Narrowing?

• 2:25:52André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 2:25:53Speaker 00

  It's a great term. That, that, to me is a form of escape, but it's a form of escape with no pressure. I'm not trying to do something different to get it right. I'm trying to do something different to, for something different to happen. Right now, that's my only, that's all I need to do.

• 2:26:11André Duqum?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:26:15André Duqum?

  That spectrum of like humility to arrogance, I feel like is analogous to the same spectrums we've been talking about of unconsciousness to consciousness and reactivity to responding. And it's fascinating. I think both, it's a nice reference point to have context for somebody else's experience who has a different wiring, where things just come naturally to them. And you can gain insight by mirroring that and see, and see what's possible on that side. I've found most useful advice generally comes from people who have similar wiring and gotten the other side of it. Because otherwise, it's like a fish swimming in water, they're like, what's water? You know, it's like, it's natural to me.

• 2:26:57Speaker 00

  A hundred percent. I actually think both have a value. You, it's wonderful to be around people in the world who just don't, don't even relate to any of the things that you struggle with. Because sometimes, being around them, I think it's useful because they don't even, it's a, I don't know, this is a bad analogy, but if you like couldn't, if you had a hundred fears around swimming, and it was really intense for you, and then you got around someone who also had previously had a hundred fears around swimming, and they were sitting there, and they were saying, no, I know you have this fear, and I know you have this fear, and I know you have this fear, and I know you have this fear, but,

• 2:27:40Speaker 00

  you know, here's why, blah, blah, blah. And then there's just the person that is like, jumps in the water and is like, loves it, and doesn't even like, sometimes, it's helpful to be around the person who doesn't even process any of those fears, because you're just like, I, they, they don't spend a second thinking about any of those things. And it's useful to be around a person who, it's like, I, just by being around them, I'm thinking less about these things. The other person is, of course, the person who's been there, done that, they know what it is. And that person's going to be able to relate to you in a way that this person never can. Like, this person's going to be the empathizer that you need. They're going to be the one that makes you feel human. They're going

• 2:28:23Speaker 00

  to articulate your experience and the texture of it in a way that no one else can. I think both have a tremendous value. Yeah.

• 2:28:35André Duqum?

  Yeah, man. And it really does take people like yourself that are willing to share vulnerably about the things that you've genuinely struggled with, that you're still to some degree navigating, that I think just provides some solace for people that are also going through their own similar things, similar patterns. And at the very minimum, it's comforting, but I think it has a much bigger ripple, which is that people can relieve some of the pressure valve, like some of the pressure that they've been putting on themselves to be different than the way they are. And yeah, it really does feel like to the degree you've given compassion for your own self, you invite that in people that come in contact with you by virtue of your physical presence or your digital presence, you know?

• 2:29:20Speaker 00

  Well, thank you. That means a lot to me. I take that as a beautiful compliment. Because I, I don't, I think, I look, I can, I say this without judgment, I can point to times in my career where I was trying to know more than I did, or where I was certainly not, not talking about the things that I was struggling with. And so there's a tough balance, because you don't want to, like, you need to keep parts of your life sacred. You also don't want to make it all about you. So you're trying to navigate what is a quite delicate dance. But I, I just, I think what always tips me in favor of sharing

• 2:30:05Speaker 00

  when I do, is that I'm

• 2:30:10Speaker 00

  You and I get to be around a lot of really interesting people. We get to speak to them both in front of camera and behind camera. And the more we get to know any of those people, the more whatever facade of, you know, perfection, or, you know, whatever pedestal you've put those people on, or whatever, it disintegrates very, very quickly. And, you know, I'm sure you've had the experience of thinking, God, if everyone that follows this person knew how much they struggled, or how imperfect they were, or how flawed they were,

• 2:30:55Speaker 00

  they wouldn't feel like this person was on a completely different level to them. And we live in a world today where I personally have, the moment I feel any kind of like pedestal-ing of me, or whatever, I just want to dissolve it as quickly as possible. I have zero interest in it. I think that no one's better than you. Like, they're not. No one's, people are not, these people we follow and whatever, they're not better.

• 2:31:36Speaker 00

  They're like, they are dealing with their own stuff. I promise you, they're a hypocrite on a bunch of things. I promise you that they're not always living the life they profess to live. I promise you that they struggle more than they're letting on. I promise you, they're way more complicated than they're letting on. Like, it's, if we should, we should take that as our baseline. Because, once you realize that, it levels the playing field. And you just go, oh, we're all there. Then, my job's not to sit here insecurely worrying about how behind I am.

• 2:32:16Speaker 00

  It's just to, like everyone else, just do the best I can with what I have. And, and I think that doesn't mean there's not a place for people who are great at sharing ideas. I selfishly hope there will always be a place for me and you to do what we do. But I think that, to me, that, I, I think that people like you and I should be an invitation. That we should just be people who are good at getting people to do the work we're doing. You know what I mean? Like, that to me is the, that's the real thing.

• 2:32:57Speaker 00

  Just find someone who speaks your language, who resonates with you, or who you resonate with. You, they say it in a way that it lands for you. And who is not putting themselves on a pedestal, but is just saying, come over here, I'm doing this work. If you want to join me, like, this is, this is great work to do. Like, this is, this is the work. And the work is the hero, you know?

• 2:33:27André Duqum?

  I couldn't agree more. And to anyone who doubted what you said around everyone having their own stuff, I just want to wholeheartedly double down on that is definitely the case. And everybody, and I've gotten to speak with some great spiritual teachers that profess beautiful philosophies in consciousness and what it means to be human. And everyone has their inconsistencies. And, and it's one of those things, like, you hear, you know, kind of like, success will fulfill you, or whatever. And then you kind of have to just go experience it yourself to realize the validity of it. But it's so much so the case that everyone has their own stuff.

• 2:34:11André Duqum?

  And it doesn't mean that they shouldn't be doing what they're doing, but it just means that we all have our own stuff. And that's, that's, that's a welcome reminder, I think.

• 2:34:20Speaker 00

  I remember going to a big Eckhart Tolle event. And I'm not sharing anything that wasn't shared publicly on the stage. But his partner was up there, and she was giving a talk. And she was saying, you know, that, I think she used, she used the analogy of like, Mary at the feet of Jesus. And how someone, I forget what it was, someone was annoyed at Mary for like, you know, not being more involved in the things that actually needed to be done, and just sitting at the feet of Jesus. And she was like, talking about Eckhart.

• 2:35:03Speaker 00

  And how like, you know, dinner's being cooked, and things need to get done. And Eckhart's just in his like, little spiritual world, you know, connecting to oneness. And she's like, can you just help with the dishes? Like, this is actually, this actually needs doing right now. And I, you know, I just sat there and I thought, that was the most, because I love Eckhart, I love his work. I think, you know, he's brilliant. And, you know, he's the, to me, you know, you, I watch him, and he's a great example of someone who just lives his message, you know? But it was like a great little human insight into how annoying it probably is sometimes to have a relationship with Eckhart Tolle.

• 2:35:47Speaker 00

  Like, I, like, yeah, she's, that's, she's like, vented a little annoyance there. It would be annoying.

• 2:35:55André Duqum?

  Yeah, totally.

• 2:35:56Speaker 00

  It would be annoying. Like, you know, you living in this space all the time, and there's like, other things that we need to do. So, yeah.

• 2:36:07André Duqum?

  No, it's, it's a, it's a good reminder, man. And, yeah, I don't know where to go from here, man. I feel like this was a really lovely conversation, and we got to cover a good amount of terrain. And it's just fun to see the evolution of your work, and you as a human being. And I think you shine through as somebody who's like, authentically sharing their truth, and not trying to perform or sound, say the right thing. But is just speaking true to what's in your experience. And there's something comforting in that. Like, when we speak from our true experience, even though we might disagree with ourselves 10 years from now, it will relate to people at their own stage of development, because it's real, you know?

• 2:36:51André Duqum?

  And so, thank you for doing that, and your commitment to truth there. And, yeah, dude, I appreciate you. And, well, yeah, I'm excited for you and what you continue to share in your retreat space, in your writings. And, well, you got this retreat coming up in a week, the event you have, for when this is being released. And just excited for, to see your worlds continue to evolve, dude. Thank you for, thank you for everything.

• 2:37:21Speaker 00

  Thank you for having me, it means a lot. And I, I meant it when I said, like, I was, I am, I've been saying no to so much more than I'm saying yes to this year. And when you said, you know, let's, let's have another conversation, it was a quick yes from me. I appreciate what you're doing. I appreciate the way you're doing it. And there's, you know, you're, you're great at creating conversations that other people just don't create. It's a testament to, not only your authenticity, but also just how, you know, how good you are at what you do. So, it's a pleasure.

• 2:37:56André Duqum?

  Thank you, man. Thank you, I appreciate you. Received, and, yeah, this will hopefully be the second of many installments of Matthew and Andre in a podcast room.

• 2:38:07Speaker 00

  Well, we got to get you at some point to come and do, I was, I had a, you know, I was doing interviews at one point on my podcast, and we're not doing them anymore, because I'm pulling back on things. But I, at some point, we'll get you on one of my YouTube videos or something. Like, find a way to bring your wisdom to my audience.

• 2:38:25André Duqum?

  Yeah, yeah, it would be my pleasure, bro. That's it, we did it. Everybody, thank you so much for tuning into this episode of the Know thyself Podcast. Anywhere else you want to point people towards specifically?

• 2:38:36Speaker 00

  I mean, my website, matthewhussey.com, has everything I'm up to right now. Whether it's, you know, my online coaching, or live events. I'm on, you know, all the, all the places, Instagram and YouTube and everywhere else. YouTube, I'm really, you know, proud of the video I release every couple of weeks. So, check me out there. And I have a newsletter that I write on Fridays called The Three Relationships, which is not just focused on our love lives, it's focused on the three relationships that impact our quality of life. The relationship we have with other people, the relationship we have with ourselves, and the relationship we have with life itself. So, if you want to read my writings, every Friday, that newsletter,

• 2:39:21Speaker 00

  you can find it on my website.

• 2:39:24André Duqum?

  Beautiful, thank you, man. You did it.