E190 - Joe Hudson: Why The Emotions You Avoid Are Running Your Life (How To Break Free)

Joe Hudson returns to explore a deeper layer of the inner work, and why peace alone is not the full picture of being human. We unpack the distinction between awakening in the mind and awakening in the heart, and how many people use meditation and awareness as a way to find calm, while still avoiding the emotional depth that brings real connection, intimacy, and joy. Joe shares how positive emotions can actually feel more threatening than negative ones, and why the capacity to feel love is directly tied to our willingness to feel everything else. In this conversation, we walk through Joe’s personal journey from early childhood patterns of shame, emotional suppression, and disconnection into years of seeking awakening through meditation. He shares how peace became accessible, but something was still missing until he began to open emotionally and develop the capacity to feel fully. This episode is an invitation to move beyond detachment and into a more complete experience of being human, where joy, intimacy, and love emerge through welcoming every part of ourselves. MUDWTR - Up to 43% off sitewide (and a free frother!) https://www.mudwtr.com/knowthyself [Code: KNOWTHYSELF] The Way App - Know Thyself listeners get 30 free sessions with Henry Shukman Just go to http://thewayapp.com/knowthyself to get begin your journey. Andrés Book Recs: https://www.knowthyselfpodcast.com/book-list ___________ 00:00 Intro 01:17 Peace vs. Joy: Two Different Awakenings 06:42 Joe's Story: Rebellion, Wounds, and the Stories We Make 11:34 The Meditation Obsession and the Awakening That Changed Everything 20:00 From Peace to Fully Human: The Heart Journey Begins 27:24 When Peace Becomes Bypassing: The Call to Feel 28:27 Ad: Mud/Wtr 29:46 The Smoke Signals of Emotional Suppression 38:23 Overthinking, Fear, and the Emotions Behind Every Decision 43:39 Commitment, the Self-Reliant Pattern, and Relationship Dynamics 49:38 Ad: The Way App 50:58 The Chasing and Being Chased Dynamic in Love 1:00:35 Joy Is the Matriarch — and Anger Is a Child Too 1:03:18 Turning Toward the World as the Real Path of Growth 1:10:33 What Are We Really Searching For? 1:14:02 Living Your Calling: Purpose, Surrender, and Doing What You Love 1:25:03 AI, Societal Transformation, and the Edge of Wisdom 1:31:25 Vagal Authority and the Emotional Order of Operations 1:40:46 Joe Coaches André Live: Perfectionism, Self-Reliance, and Vulnerability 1:55:26 Dropping the Identity of Being Spiritual 1:59:11 We All Want to Be Seen ___________ Episode Resources: https://www.instagram.com/joehudson_aoa/ https://www.artofaccomplishment.com/about https://www.instagram.com/andreduqum/ https://www.instagram.com/knowthyself/ https://www.youtube.com/@knowthyselfpodcast https://www.knowthyselfpodcast.com

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Positive emotions are actually scarier for people to feel than the negative ones for more than like two seconds.

• 0:05André Duqum?

  You have a quote, "Peace is not joy. They're completely different animals."

• 0:08Speaker 00

  Peace comes with the head awakening. Joy comes more in the heart. Joy is the matriarch of a family of emotions, and she won't come into a house that her children aren't welcome. So how do you welcome your anger and your fear and your sadness? So that you can welcome love. My dad was a great father for the first 10 years, but then alcohol got him and he was just wildly abusive verbally. And there was no way out. I could say, "Find out you win." And he would say, "See, I told you you were weak." So love is abuse. My needs are less important than other people's needs. And there's just something inherently wrong with me. Meditation is porn for perfectionists. It was just me trying to be imperfect. I was at peace, but I realized that peace was great, but it wasn't the complete picture and I wanted to actually be fully human.

• 0:52André Duqum?

  Is there anything that you pick up with me?

• 0:54Speaker 00

  There's a lot of things that I could say. I could give you 20 examples. So the more I could allow my heart to break, the more my capacity to love grew. But then what happens when someone's actually across from you and loving you just as you are? I want to be so seen.

• 1:17André Duqum?

  Joe Hudson, welcome back.

• 1:18Speaker 00

  Hey, good to be here. Thanks for having me.

• 1:20André Duqum?

  Founder, of course, man. It's my pleasure. I always love anytime I see you pop up on my feed or my schedule, my calendar. It's a big joy. I loved our last conversation, the ones that followed after, and I'm so excited for this one. People have seen you online with founding The Art of Accomplishment, know that you are the executive coach for some of the world's biggest leaders. And I think that becomes possible when one's able to effectively lead themselves.

• 1:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:51André Duqum?

  And where I want to start today is a lot of people are familiar with the conversations we've had on the waking up journey.

• 1:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:58André Duqum?

  And we talked about a bit how on last time, it's not the same thing as growing up and the emotional work.

• 2:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:06André Duqum?

  And you have a quote, which is, "Peace is not joy. They're completely different animals."

• 2:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:11André Duqum?

  And I want to start there and lay the foundation on how they're two different things, complementary, but not equal.

• 2:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:17André Duqum?

  So could you elaborate on that?

• 2:19Speaker 00

  I think there's a couple of ways to try to describe it. The first one is I think peace comes with the head awakening, right? Which is, I would describe it as understanding like what you are essentially. Understanding, you know, what you are beyond the things that come and go, like emotions or thoughts or identities or, you know, father, son, all that stuff. Like, what are you essentially? And it also comes with this thing of being able to see through your thoughts. Like, your thoughts come and go and you're just like, oh, I see how that's true, but I also see how it's not true. You don't get, your thoughts don't become personal anymore. The joy comes more in the heart awakening,

• 3:04Speaker 00

  which is the, the capacity to welcome and enjoy all of your emotional experiences. So I have a phrase, it's, uh, joy is the matriarch of a family of emotions and she won't come into a house where her children aren't welcome. And so how do you welcome your anger and your fear and your sadness? So that you can welcome the harder things to welcome, which is like ecstasy and joy and excitement and exuberance and, and love. And, and we think that those things are really easy to feel, but they're actually, I find people have a very hard time. We'll do these retreats and we'll have a chance for people to really go into their anger

• 3:46Speaker 00

  and they'll get angry for like 40, 50 minutes just, and they, you know, maybe haven't gotten angry for years, but they'll do it. And then we're like, okay, now we're going to do some pleasure. And then like five minutes later it's like, okay, well, what are we doing next? Cause to actually allow that feeling of deep joy, deep pleasure, it's, it's, it like it, the way they say it is that you, you, like you can't, you don't really exist in it anymore. Like the you starts to dissipate because it gets so big, it gets so expansive that it gets scary. And so you'll see people contract into fear when like a great amount of pleasure or love show up.

• 4:27André Duqum?

  And then what would be the gut awakening?

• 4:30Speaker 00

  For me, the gut awakening is, is a nervous system awakening. And so that is, is like the most difficult one to explain because it's, it's just so hard. The way I would say it is,

• 4:46Speaker 00

  Your capacity to hang out in like just the simple pleasure of being alive, meaning that you're not in fight or flight very often unless something real is happening. There's like a, an experience of like the sensations moving through your body are just unbelievably pleasurable. And what that's basically doing is it's telling you you're safe when you actually are safe and you're not safe when you actually aren't safe. And most of us are walking around the world feeling unsafe even though we're perfectly safe. Oh my God, I gotta. And they're all linked. Like I make a separation between them. They're not really separate, but you know, as for an example, you have a thought that's like, oh my God, I gotta make sure I call my mom.

• 5:31Speaker 00

  And that sends the gut into it eh, and then the emotionally is like, oh, I have to. And you know, they're all, they all relate to one another and they all affect one another.

• 5:41André Duqum?

  Yeah, I think for many of us that get into mindfulness or meditation, we primarily, and I think I did early on, like identify awakening of loosening the identification with thoughts as like the, that's what awakening is.

• 5:54Speaker 00

  Right.

• 5:56André Duqum?

  Come to find out later on that journey that, that there's a, still a feeling of freedom that's lacking within one's experience. It sounds like the gut awakening has to do with safety, nervous system regulation, the heart more with like feeling your feelings and the head more with identification with thoughts or seeing the lucidary nature of it.

• 6:14Speaker 00

  And self, yeah, and self. And there's like, I don't go into Kundalini, but the gut awakening has a lot of like energetic Kundalini stuff with it. But I don't, you know, it's very hard to talk about. And so I just don't, I'm not an expert in that area.

• 6:27André Duqum?

  Yeah. And so peace is not joy to me feels like, okay, one could have had awakening. They could have a loosening identification of thoughts. Fundamentally, I know my sense of self is not at the whims of my thoughts and emotions. But I would actually like to zoom in on your own personal journey because you got kicked out of your family household when you were a freshman in high school.

• 6:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 6:50André Duqum?

  You had a green mohawk.

• 6:51Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 6:52André Duqum?

  I need a picture of this.

• 6:53Speaker 00

  I need a, I need a picture of it. Yeah. My parents did not allow any of those pictures to exist. Yeah. Yeah. Like Knox gelatin was the trick. You had, you got Knox gelatin and then that's how you like kept the mohawk up. Yeah.

• 7:08André Duqum?

  Was it like big, big or like?

• 7:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, like hand, hand big. I wanted it to be like a foot and something, but it, I never got there. Yeah.

• 7:17André Duqum?

  So I'm curious to zoom in a bit more on that rebellious spirit and the stories that you developed about yourself and the world at that time, which then led you on the head awakening journey. And then eventually down the heart awakening and gut awakening journey.

• 7:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:28André Duqum?

  But I think that can, a lot of people will be able to relate as they hear it in your own personal journey. So if you could just take me back of like the progression of those key developmental moments in your path and the stories that you feel like you really made about yourself during that time.

• 7:42Speaker 00

  Yeah. So the first story that I made, that I hardly even understood that I made until relatively recently was, you know, the story of my needs are not important, that my job is to take care of my parents' needs instead of my parents' job was to take care of my needs. So my mom had this theory, for instance, of like, you know, I needed to be changed at a certain time so that I learned to poop at a certain time. That was convenient

• 8:23Speaker 00

  for her, just like as an example. So my needs were tertiary to every, every other need that there was out there. So, so that was something that I didn't really even understand until much later, but that was probably the first big lesson. Then the second lesson that I learned was that love came with verbal abuse. My dad was beautiful, was a great father for the first 10 years, but then alcohol got him and he was just wildly abusive verbally at the table. So we could literally have like hour and a half yelling matches and there was no way out. I could say, find dad, you win. And he would say, see, I told you

• 9:07Speaker 00

  you were weak. Like it was just, there was no way, cause he was just moving his, getting through his own emotional experience. And so, so that's the second. And then in all of that was the lesson that like, I'm, I'm wrong. So love is abuse. My needs are less important than other people's needs and.

• 9:28Speaker 00

  And there's just something inherently wrong with me. And that's basically how I like popped out, you know, of high school. And college, it was just like that. That was what was going on. And so, because I had learned that, I proved it to myself all the time. I was constantly telling myself I should do these things that I wasn't doing. I had all sorts of bad habits.

• 9:51Speaker 00

  You know, definitely was avoiding life through alcohol. Marijuana, I wrestled with for a while.

• 10:00Speaker 00

  All just as some way to get away from myself because these emotions were coming.

• 10:06Speaker 00

  And luckily and unluckily at the same time, I had this experience where I was seven years old, where I was crying and my parents hated when I cried, which is not uncommon, you know? And so they would throw pity parties for me. They'd be like, oh, that's so bad. Oh, poor you. I'm gonna play the smallest violin, that kind of thing. And, uh, and so they, they one day took pictures of me to make fun of me and they actually put them in the photo album. And so when I was, I don't know, 21 or 22 years old, I came across that photo and I was like, oh, that's probably why I haven't cried in like 14 years. Like that, that's probably it and I, I need to learn how to cry.

• 10:51Speaker 00

  I do not know why that gift came, but I just knew that that was something I had to do. And so I started trying to cry and I couldn't do it. Like I literally spent years trying to cry and couldn't do it. At this time, I'm, I'm meeting my wife. My wife has, my wife is responsible for a lot. She's amazing. She basically said, we need to travel in a thoroughbred country together. We need to do a 10 day silent retreat together and we need to do therapy together if we're gonna get married. If we're gonna, we're gonna do that and then we'll decide if marriage.

• 11:25Speaker 02

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' healthcare to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the HouseMajorityPac.com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 11:54Speaker 00

  Edge works. So I was like, okay, let's do it.

• 11:57André Duqum?

  Those are great things for most people to do.

• 11:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, just awesome. And to do them together was was great. So. So the therapy like really started teaching me about the emotional piece. And but the meditation retreat, what happened was I was at a like standard, you know, Guankha Vipassana thing. And what was it like? Day three, the first time you sit and you move the attention through your body. My body disappeared. I was one with the universe. It was amazing. It was eight seconds. And then I spent the next 10 years trying to get that back, which was like absolute hell. It's like a complete nightmare.

• 12:37André Duqum?

  Could you zoom in on just a bit more on that experience? What was that really like for you? Those eight seconds?

• 12:43Speaker 00

  Those eight seconds? I don't know. It's there in memory now, but it was just. It was like my physical structure disappeared is how I felt physically in the body. And I could feel the universe and I was the universe. There was a positive sensation ecstasy that I had never felt before. And and then I was just like, what's happening? Uh, how do I keep this? And then it went away. And then I was like, how do I get it? And so I spent 10 years making almost no money, doing almost like the very minimum amount of work

• 13:27Speaker 00

  to be able to dedicate my entire life to finding whatever that thing was. So reading all sorts of meditation teachers and doing all sorts of things like the Hoffman Process or different therapies. I just like everything that I could possibly find to do, I did. And that was that was a. I was like, great in the fact that it taught me a tremendous amount of tools to like, now that when we do courses, I get to incorporate the understanding from all these unique tools. It was also lucky in the fact that I had a huge authority issue because my dad was who he was. I just couldn't trust authority. So anything that anybody said, I was like, bullshit, prove it.

• 14:11Speaker 00

  Like, and so I started developing experiments to, okay, he said that, or she said that, I'm going to try that. I'm going to see what that, is that really true? Okay, you can say joy is the matriarch of a family of emotions, blah, blah, blah. I don't give a shit. So I'm going to actually like, see what it's like to feel that anger, feel the sadness, feel the joy. I'm going to do all that for a week and I'm going to see, does my life change? So I wouldn't take anybody's words as gospel. I would say, what's the experiment I could run? Which was, I think, the biggest benefit.

• 14:44Speaker 00

  And so I just started running these experiments everywhere that I could find. And, and I, you know, really spent seven years like in a room, meditating most of the time. That was like most of my experience.

• 14:57Speaker 00

  And

• 15:00Speaker 00

  it was like, you know, it's like meditation is porn for perfectionists. You know what I mean? It's like, it was just me trying to be fucking perfect. That's really what it was. And that finally like started dwindling away. Pretty soon, I wasn't trying to manage my experience anymore. Not pretty soon, like four years in. I wasn't trying to manage my experience, but I wasn't trying to get there anymore, or I was trying to get there less. This question arose in me, like, what am I essentially? That, that question was 10 times a day, just jumped right into my consciousness. I was obsessed with it. And, and I just, well, the time is called what am I, but for me now, it's what am I essentially?

• 15:38Speaker 00

  And, and it just like, and so that was where I was, I was just completely there doing that thing. Worrying about money and married with a wife who's like, what are you doing? Like, what's going on? She did not understand the journey at the time. She had her own journey too, and so we had very different ways. And she was kind of, she was definitely more on the heart journey and I was more on the head journey. And she used to make fun of me, you know, it was, she'll hate this story, but I love this story. She had nicknames for all the gurus that I would read, like, you know, Stephen Harrison was somebody I really loved. She called him Bean Boring and Papa G was Poon Jav Potatoes. And she had a nickname for everybody.

• 16:23Speaker 00

  And she'd say things like, "Tell me about your spiritual process because I'm tired and I need to go to sleep." Like, that would be the thing, so. So it wasn't a lot of support and it was all in fun, but she also was doing her own way of, she was doing her own way, which became really important later on. And so eventually, I'm at a different meditation retreat, I'm going to the bathroom, which is oddly often in Zen Buddhist parables and Taoist parables of like having an experience. And I had lots of big experiences at this point. And I was peeing and I had this experience and it just was like, I asked, "What am I?"

• 17:06Speaker 00

  and the answer disappeared. I don't know exactly how to explain it, but the first thought was, "I am that." And the second thought was, "This never ends." And I got really lucky with that second thought, because I know a lot of folks who've had that awakening experience and they think it's an end. They think it's like, "Okay, I'm done." And then they identify as like this awake person, which is its own weird ego trip. And so that didn't happen to me. And I think that that didn't happen to me because I struggled so hard to get to that point. So I was lucky. So I had that experience, but for a very, very short period of time, maybe less than a year, I kind of identified as somebody who was awake and had that awakening experience.

• 17:49Speaker 00

  But what happened in that moment, which is the peace part of your question, is I could just access peace at any time. Like, there was this vast oneness, there was nothing that was personal, there was nothing to be upset with. If I did get upset, if I did get constricted, I could just remember and it was lovely. But it was also not whole. It was also not joyful. It was also, it was like, I could be at peace, but I couldn't.

• 18:16Speaker 00

  Be intimate. I could be at peace, but I was still being, if whether I wanted to admit it or not, I was still being like thrown around by my shadow. I was at peace, but I was still putting myself above people. And, and so, to that, so, so, and then about that same time, I became a venture capitalist and I started getting involved in the world. And what I realized, the first thing I realized there was, oh, business is awesome because you can like pretend you're peace on a pillow. But like when your company is losing 10 million, I mean, you just lost $10 million investment or $20 million investment. Like that's, that's real, you know?

• 19:01Speaker 00

  Or like you're in a board meeting and things aren't going right. That's real. Like, how are you going to attend to that? How are you going to be with that? Like, I'm all at peace. Are you going to do something about it? Can you do both? Can you be at peace and do something about it? And, and so when I was doing that work, one of the things that I learned was a lot of the tools that I had come across were really good for business. So as an example, if I want to raise money from you and I know how to connect with you and you and I have a conversation where we grow as people, there's a higher likelihood that you're going to invest in the project. If I'm talking to an employee

• 19:46Speaker 00

  or I'm talking to a CEO I was invested in and, and I understood how to create intimacy, I understood how to ask a great question, I understood how to be deeply interconnected with myself and them, then things would happen better. You know, like the conversation would happen better. There'd be less intimacy, that we'd have less of a fight. As a matter of fact, this whole business that I'm in right now started because somebody was pitching me. And And we just had this really nice conversation. Then he started pitching me. I said, all I know is that my entire body constricted when you started pitching me. So whatever that is, it's like something's not right. And then he went, oh, you know, it's true. I'm like doing this because I have to.

• 20:31Speaker 00

  It's not actually what I want to be doing. And the next thing I know, he invited me to a conference where I spoke. Next thing I know, he has me in front of like a camera. Next thing I know, people are asking me to coach them. Like literally, that's how this whole thing happened because I was just being all with all the things that I had learned how to be. So at that point, I realized that peace was great, but it wasn't the complete picture. And I wanted to actually be like human, fully human, which and I think that the peace was almost a way to avoid like pain avoidance.

• 21:11Speaker 00

  And so, and, and I, and I stopped having any interest whatsoever in perfection. So, so with that, this guy came into my life named Case. And Case was a weird human being. I love him, but he was no easy character. But he had this capacity to have a conversation with people and their lives would change. And he also had the capacity to sell. Like if he believed in a product, he could sell like easily or raise money easily. Like just unbelievable. It's just crazy how he could do it. And so he became a friend and he got cancer. And so he lived with us because he wanted alternative treatment that you could only

• 21:56Speaker 00

  get in California. And so he lived with us and I got to watch him do his work. And I was already starting to coach people at this time. And so, and that started like the deep relational work, which I'd already done a lot of work with the heart. I'd already done a lot of emotional work. At this point, I'd learned how to cry by literally going and faking crying out in the woods. So, and I started learning about the emotions, but with him, there was a lot of relational stuff. And that's when I started really allowing like that deep level of intimacy, love and connection in, that's when a whole bunch of stuff started changing for me as far as the emotional. All of a sudden.

• 22:40Speaker 00

  When I started feeling more emotions, my decision making got clear. When I started feeling more emotions, the stuck, kind of like low levely depression that can happen even in peace, went away. When I started feeling my emotions, I stopped feeling better than people. When I started feeling my emotions, I was like quick to be able to be intimate with folks. And so, all this stuff happened. But biggest thing is that just my capacity to love grew and grew and grew. The more I could allow my heart to break, the more my capacity to love grew. And so, I just started to like do that. And part of that recognition was that I had to like learn how to love myself,

• 23:21Speaker 00

  which is where I started to have to confront, deeply have to confront, this idea that I'm bad, right? So, and that love came with abuse. And so, what I started noticing was like every single emotion that I wasn't allowed to feel had a behavior pattern that was involved in it. And when I felt the emotion, the behavior pattern went away. So, I was emotionally abandoned. I had this emotional abandonment come up. I might think like, oh, you might emotionally abandon me. I would do one of two things. I would do fuck you anyway, or I'd do like, oh, please. Both which make you emotionally, more likely to emotionally abandon.

• 24:02Speaker 00

  But when I could like love that feeling of abandonment, when I could welcome that, then neither of those two actions happened. And then, you were less likely to abandon me and the pattern would start to fall apart. So, all of that started to happen. And my capacity to love myself, to not believe the shame, to work through my shame, just started, it started to all unravel. And that's when joy showed up. And that's, and then after joy showed up, interestingly, that's when the I'm bad thing fell apart. Then the like, the inherent goodness showed up, the like the recognition. And it's an interesting thing, right? Like, you have dedicated your life to doing this work in the world.

• 24:47Speaker 00

  It's great work, it's wonderful.

• 24:51Speaker 00

  And yet, most people in your position, I can't speak for you, but most people in your position would be focused on the things that they didn't do, or what was wrong, or, you know, they wouldn't actually have trust that, oh, I'm doing this because I have great intentions for the world and I actually really deeply care. They won't admit that to themselves. They won't admit to themselves that thousands of people watched this thing and their lives are changed because of it. And they're having that impact on the world and letting that break their heart open. And that journey, which is beyond the journey of joy, is this journey of, oh, I can't be grateful for things that I can't acknowledge are true.

• 25:35Speaker 00

  And so can I fully allow, oh, the people in my business want me to think they're doing a good job? Can I fully let that in? The people on the YouTube channel are telling me that their lives are changed because they watched this simple video that I made. Can I let that break my heart? And that journey, break my heart open, cry, but break my heart open, that journey in itself is, you have to start acknowledging your inherent goodness in that.

• 26:05Speaker 02

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' health care to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the HouseMajorityPac.com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 26:35André Duqum?

  Yeah, like that humility, being not just acknowledging your own insignificance or nothingness, but owning your significance and how big your impact actually has the capacity. I resonate with that and what you said.

• 26:51Speaker 00

  You can't be grateful for something that you can't acknowledge. And the other piece, I think it's from the Jewish tradition, I think, and it says, humility is taking your God-given place in the world. Which I really love because it actually expresses both. Right? Because humility is one of those things where if I say I'm humble, then I'm arrogant. If I say I'm arrogant, then I'm humble. So it's like, it's one of these weird things that it's, it's not what you think it is. It's, there's a great saying that says, it's not thinking less of yourself, it's thinking of yourself less, which points in the general direction. But I feel like it's also, there's an acknowledgement of who you are with the marriage of the acknowledgement that it was all kind of luck.

• 27:36Speaker 00

  You know, like, it's moving through me, it's not really about me, but I also have to acknowledge that I'm, I'm here doing this thing.

• 27:45Speaker 00

  It's a crazy, that's a mind blower.

• 27:48André Duqum?

  I, I appreciate you took up the space to really kind of walk us through the arc of your journey because I think it's, speaking into those different points are really important. You mentioned enlightenment is like porn for perfectionists.

• 28:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, awakening, yeah, yeah.

• 28:03André Duqum?

  Yeah, and, and I think that what can start out for so many of us is just like a seeking for solace, a seeking for some sort of comfort from this voice in our head that's running tyranny in our lives can quickly become bypassing dealing with stuff that is quieter in your experience, but still there.

• 28:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:21André Duqum?

  And still keeping you constructed in some degree.

• 28:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:24André Duqum?

  So I really want to, I want to hone in on that. What speaks out from your story, which if you would just finish, is like when you realize you hadn't cried in 14 years.

• 28:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:32André Duqum?

  And then you went off into the mountains and faked it till you made it, essentially?

• 28:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's right, every week, yeah.

• 28:37André Duqum?

  So you would just go on a hike, go find a soul?

• 28:40Speaker 00

  So I lived in LA at the time and I would go up to Angel's Crest and then I would like walk on this trail that nobody walked on and then I'd walk off the trail for a couple of miles and then I would pretend I was in an acting class where I had to cry. That's what I did. Like I was so ashamed of any tears and then, and then finally like real tears burst through and I cried for like four days straight. It was awesome. I felt so much better. It was just like, just that whole thing moved through me. It was amazing and that made it easier for me to cry, not, it didn't make it, like then I had access and it was another, I'd say another like five years until crying just could spontaneously erupt. Yeah.

• 29:28André Duqum?

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• 30:13André Duqum?

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• 30:58André Duqum?

  release, whether it's through crying or expressing of certain emotions, outside of pretending you're in an acting class and then it becoming real. I guess, and I'm just curious, even my own personal life, like take, take the lens on me, I feel like I resonate with a lot of parts of what you said of your journey. Finding this inherent peace, lack of identification with thoughts can be with most things without strong reaction. Yeah, yeah. But at times, I still find myself being constricted and being able to feel the fullness of experience, where I feel joy, I feel peace, I can feel slight sadness, but they're like more, I would say, contained within what I feel like is the fullness of my possible

• 31:42André Duqum?

  spectrum of experience, if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So like, what do you, what kind of advice you got there?

• 31:49André Duqum?

  Besides, which I think you said last time was like, have a couple of kids, get into a relationship, those triggers will inevitably bring that out, right?

• 31:57Speaker 00

  The biggest, the biggest unlock for that, for, for in that position is vulnerability. And it's kind of, it's, it's a little bit harder in your situation than it would be if you hadn't done all that work. So.

• 32:14Speaker 00

  And then in some ways it's easier. So there's kind of both. Because once the emotion starts happening, you don't take them as seriously because you, they're not personal. And so you can have these big emotions and you can be like, that was awesome. Instead of what's wrong with me? Why did I get so sad? So that's the benefit of it. But the easiest thing is to be vulnerable. And so the, one of my teachers who's now passed, his name I can't remember, but I spent like a couple of weeks with him. And he, um, he often worked with like, monks who'd been meditating for like years. And when he would teach them this thing that you're talking about,

• 32:53Speaker 00

  he would tell them, it's like, it's, we're going to drag you back into hell again. Just so you know, we're dragging you back into hell again. And I went through that very, very similar experience where I was like, oh, I don't need to go there. I can be here. I can be up in this peace. I don't need to, I don't need to like, go into the depths of that shit anymore. And so I'm not going to do it. And then it became more and more hidden from me. And so I literally had to slow way, way, way, way down and go, okay, something, there's a constriction there. What's actually happening? And like slowly pick it apart, even amplify it sometimes so that I could start to actually get a taste for it and do it. The number one thing though, that helped me was just the act of vulnerability over and over and over and over again.

• 33:38Speaker 00

  And by vulnerability, I mean, saying the thing that's true for you despite the consequences.

• 33:45Speaker 00

  Saying like, oh, I'm a little scared there. Or I'm, or I don't want that. Or I love you, or whatever the truth is. It's like a little bit scary. That's the, that's like the trick. And it's very relational because the, the, the,

• 34:05Speaker 00

  hate to call it this, but like the avoidance that can come with that like level of peace. What you're avoiding is the pain of, of relationships earlier in your life. And so being able to be vulnerable and open yourself up to that pain again is the healing process.

• 34:24Speaker 00

  And so it is, it is, it's getting deeply vulnerable. And that, that's the, that's the biggest trick.

• 34:32André Duqum?

  Yeah, which vulnerability and authenticity, they've both gotten good PR agents.

• 34:37Speaker 00

  Recently.

• 34:38André Duqum?

  Right.

• 34:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 34:39André Duqum?

  Yeah, recently.

• 34:40Speaker 00

  Horrible in the 50s. They weren't doing good. They've turned their brand around. Yeah.

• 34:44André Duqum?

  Which is, which is interesting because there's the appearance of vulnerability and then there's the thing that actually feels vulnerable.

• 34:51Speaker 00

  Correct.

• 34:52André Duqum?

  Right.

• 34:52Speaker 00

  Oh, correct. Yeah, that's, I mean, that's like, so for instance, I just talked about my dad being an alcoholic. That was vulnerable for some point in my life. That is not at all vulnerable, right? Right? And, um, and so vulnerable, and so vulnerability, part, sometimes part of vulnerability is like saying something vulnerable that nobody's gonna think is vulnerable. Right? You know, or, but yeah, it is, it, it, it has, it has to make you pucker. That's how you know it's vulnerable. Cause you go, right? Because one, there's a form of fear that's like, oh, I'm stepping into a bigger room. I'm gonna, I'm being asked to take up a bigger space.

• 35:31Speaker 00

  That could be, I love you. That could be getting on stage and talking in front of 500 people. That could be taking a new role. And there's like a, that's, and that tells you, oh, there's an act of vulnerability here. There's like that pucker that comes with it. And so, so that's, I think, one of the things that like lets you know you're being vulnerable is that, that, oh my God, am I gonna, am I gonna say the thing?

• 35:59André Duqum?

  And I've heard you speak to like the ways to be able to magnify it and get clear. Like, what are the smoke signals, so to speak, of emotional suppression? And how it, like, what are the key signs that, whether or not we're aware of it, we are suppressing, you know, emotions to some degree in your experience?

• 36:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, so different emotions have different signals, but I can tell you, easy ones.

• 36:24Speaker 00

  Like, so for instance, if you're highly rational, if you're like one of those people like, "I'm highly rational," I can say to you, "You also think you're better than people who aren't," which means you think you're better than people. And if I can tell that, then I'm using my rationality to tell that you are emotionally suppressed as well. Meaning-

• 36:42André Duqum?

  Judgment, essentially.

• 36:44Speaker 00

  Basically. If you judge somebody, if every moment you're judging somebody, you are suppressing your emotions. You have to. Like, you can just, if you judge somebody, you can just say, "If I couldn't judge them, what would I have to feel?" And there will be an emotion like right there waiting for you.

• 37:00André Duqum?

  If I couldn't judge them, what would I have to feel?

• 37:03Speaker 00

  If I just couldn't, not that I'm not supposed, not that I shouldn't, but if I just couldn't judge them, what would I have to feel?

• 37:08André Duqum?

  So if somebody finds themselves having the tendency to judge others, which slightly puts them above others, what would be an example of something they're avoiding feeling in that moment?

• 37:18Speaker 00

  I mean, the best way is to just do, find it for yourself. Like, can you find anything that you judge anybody for?

• 37:27André Duqum?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 37:28Speaker 00

  So give me something that you judge someone for. Anything. Small, big, doesn't matter.

• 37:32André Duqum?

  Yeah, um.

• 37:35André Duqum?

  Virtue signaling.

• 37:37Speaker 00

  Great, that's a great one. That's an awesome one. Easy one to judge. So if you couldn't judge somebody for virtue signaling, what would you have to feel?

• 37:46André Duqum?

  What I have to feel?

• 37:49Speaker 00

  You're just not capable of it. Not capable of judging them. Their virtue signaling, and then you just couldn't.

• 37:56André Duqum?

  Probably shame.

• 37:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:00Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah, beautiful. Yeah, that's exactly, and that's, that's how it goes. So for instance, one of the things I used to judge people for was like just those inane conversations, you know, 20 minutes of like how fast you went to the grocery store or whatever, what you bought. And I recognized, I was like, oh, what would I have to feel? And it was just this deep grief because in my childhood, keeping it superficial was part of the way to avoid. And so I, there's like three weeks where I would just like seek out superficial conversations and I'd just be there, I'd be the weird guy there weeping while people are like talking about like what dress they bought at like Bloomingdale's or whatever.

• 38:44Speaker 00

  And because I was like, oh, there's the gold for me. That's like, I can, I can, if I can seek that out and then I can feel that emotion. And so that's exactly how I did it. Every time I found a judgment or I found something that I got triggered by, or I was like, okay, there's something there I couldn't feel. And then I would just reenact that over and over again until that trigger wasn't there in me anymore.

• 39:09Speaker 00

  So I would like go out and find virtue signaling and then like feel into that shame. Like I would like go to like a nice protest rally where everybody virtue signaling and I would just sit in it. That's what, those are the some.

• 39:20Speaker 02

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• 39:49Speaker 00

  For the things that I. Yeah. No, that's great. That's great.

• 39:54André Duqum?

  When, um, okay, so another one would be what, overthinking? I've heard you and I saw one of your tweets how overthinking is usually stemmed in some sort of emotional suppression to some.

• 40:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, so, and that one's pretty typically fear. So basically, if someone's trying to make a decision and they're overthinking the decision. Actually, I have a really great parable I just wrote about this for my next, for the book I'm doing, so maybe I can remember it.

• 40:20André Duqum?

  Which one is it? I might actually have it.

• 40:21Speaker 00

  Oh, no, you don't, because I just wrote it this weekend.

• 40:24André Duqum?

  Oh, okay.

• 40:24Speaker 00

  I just wrote it this weekend. Let me, I'll try the parable, let me tell you the verbal. Okay, so this woman has lived this really good life. She's in her 50s, her kids are grown, and she's got this big decision she needs to make, and she's wrestling with it, she's thinking about it, and she can't, so she goes to this, the guru on the hill. Most of my parables don't have gurus, but this one did. And she goes to the guru and she explains, she's like, "I'm thinking that I should stay with my husband and I should stay doing my business that's a successful business, and I should stay as an upright community member, but there's a part of me that wants to go to the convent and just dedicate my life to God, and I don't know what I should do.

• 41:07Speaker 00

  Should I, you know, stay with my life or stay in the convent? Should I, because on one hand, like, my husband's great and he loves me, but on the other hand, I love my time with God. On one hand, I have money I can contribute to the community. On the other hand, I know I can have a generous life even without money. On one hand, you know, I've like built my whole life around this, but on the other hand, every time I've ever done anything new, it's always kind of paid off, so..." And the guru interrupts and says, "Just decide the same way you decided to come here and ask me the question." And she's like, "Yep, but..." Off you go. So she goes home, she's a little confused about it, she's, "Rr."

• 41:50Speaker 00

  Couple of months later, she's still in the question. She's like, that guru, I don't know. I'm gonna go back and see the guru. So she goes back to see the guru. She waits in line again. She finally gets up in front of the guru. Guru looks and says, how's that decision thing coming? She goes, well, it's not going well at all, actually. You know, I just don't know if I should live with my husband and continue the life or if I should, if I should go to the convent. He goes, oh, I know what you should do. She's like, you don't, you can't know what I should do. You're not omnipotent. He's like, sure, I know what you should do. You should sit here and ask me a question. And she's like, what? And then he calls the next person, dismisses her. She goes off just pissed this time.

• 42:33Speaker 00

  Last time, she's like, super pissed. And she's, goes home and she's like, screw that guru, whatever. But a couple of months later, the business is suffering. The patient husband isn't so patient anymore. She's still thinking about like, what am I gonna do? And so she's like, well, there must be something. The guru, he just keeps on going in my head. So she goes back and sees the guru. And she comes up and immediately the guru sees her face and is like, oh, this is still not going well, I see. And she's like, no, it's not going well. And he said, well, let me just ask you, how, you know, I've pointed out it two different ways now. I'm gonna try to point it out as a third. So let me just ask you a question. What are you scared about in staying with your husband?

• 43:18Speaker 00

  I'm scared that I might be miserable because I'm missing this massive opportunity. And what are you scared about if you go to the convent? I'm scared I might be miserable because I'm gonna miss my husband. And he says, well, then you can't lose because you're miserable right now. You're not gonna lose anything. And she starts chuckling. She gets it. She turns around and as she's walking out, one of the devotees of the guru looks and says, so you know what you're gonna do? And she goes, absolutely not, but I'm sure that it'll reveal itself when it's supposed to. And walks out. And that is the overthinking thing. The overthinking is that you are trying to avoid a certain emotion.

• 44:02Speaker 00

  And instead, because we make whatever 100 choices every day, we never think about them. But when we start thinking about them, we're scared and we're scared of a result that might happen, particularly an emotional result that might happen. If I leave my husband, I might be miserable. If I leave my, if I don't go to the convent, I might be miserable. If I tell my boss the truth, I might get fired and I'm gonna feel like a failure. If I don't tell my boss this truth, I'm gonna feel like I'm inadequate and that I'm not doing my job. And so, we're just trying to avoid an emotion. And then, so we're thinking, thinking, thinking, trying to make sure that we're gonna feel the thing that we wanna feel. And when you invite and welcome all your emotions, all of a sudden, it doesn't really matter.

• 44:47Speaker 00

  You don't, like, I can't think of the last time that I machinated on a decision. Like, I, like, just, I, I can't, I don't think I can, it hasn't happened in a year. Just like, I'm just, I'm just the way I would make a choice of coming here, I would make a choice of doing this with the business or saying this to a person.

• 45:11André Duqum?

  This is, uh, this is super powerful, man, because I think, so the overthinking and like the binary decisions are both kinda coming in here. Like, when we get into that place of black or white thinking, like, there is a right decision and I feel so conflicted, which is the right one?

• 45:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:25André Duqum?

  I was talking to a friend over the past few weeks who's been seeing this woman who he has a deep affinity for, there's real love there, and is really struggling in this like, yes or no.

• 45:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:36André Duqum?

  Is she the one, is she not the one? Should I pursue it further? Should I step away? And so, in that case, because I think a lot of people relating right now could look at a career choice, a relationship, somebody they just started dating, and they feel like they're stuck in this binary.

• 45:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:53André Duqum?

  With that parable, kinda goes hand in hand. So what question, I guess, could they ask themselves to see what emotion they're avoiding?

• 46:01Speaker 00

  Yeah. So let, yeah, great. So let me, let me pull back on a couple things so that we get a good. First thing is, anything, if you're trying to make a decision, that's a sign of fear. If you're in black and white binary thinking, that's a sign of fear. If you think there's a false end, like, I have to make the decision or I'm gonna lose her, or if I stay married to, if I get married to her, oh my god, I'm stuck forever. There's like a false end. So. Just on that level to see that it's not binary, to actually intellectually go, actually, I could stay with her. I could stay with her like this. I could say, these are the boundaries of our relationship. There's actually a thousand things that you could do there.

• 46:40Speaker 00

  And you can say, I don't have to make a decision. I can actually just say, I'm scared about this and this and this. What's going to happen? And just take the next most obvious step. And I could see through that false end that I've created for myself. You know, even the Tibetans see through their death. Even the Stoics see through their death so that they can become not scared of death. So can you see through your false end? So intellectually, all that stuff can be done. And if you see any of those things, then you can know fear is at least part of the equation of what you're not. But let's just talk about your friend as an example. Your friend is an example of like probability of about 75%. I can tell you his story. His story is, in his childhood,

• 47:27Speaker 00

  love came with some sort of way of being dominated. It doesn't mean dominated like, but it was like somebody always on them, somebody. And so guilt tripping them, somebody who's like not letting them be themselves. Maybe it's through guilt, maybe it's through physical punishment, but there's something like that going on. And they are scared of being in a relationship. They're going to lose themselves in the relationship. They're going to merge in the relationship and they're not going to be able to be who they want to be, say the things that they want to say. They're going to, they're going to be some bent version of themselves to stay in this relationship. That's the fear.

• 48:08Speaker 00

  75% chance that that's the fear that is actually underneath that person. Commitment phobic in love relationships. So, so now backing up to get to your question.

• 48:24Speaker 00

  If he's sitting there and he's like, I'm scared of being in a relationship, the vulnerable thing to do is to say, I notice I really want to be with you. I notice I really love you. I notice I'm really scared of committing. I notice that I am avoiding the intimacy that committing. And then just say, why? What makes that thing? What makes me scared to commit? Which is weird because those relationships, and I've now helped hundreds of people with this thing, that's the conversation that's never really had. This is why I'm scared, because everybody's taking it so personally. You don't love me. You know, like it's two people. This, let's say, this is the woman, this is the guy. I can tell you with a lot of certainty that this is their relationship.

• 49:08Speaker 00

  She chases a little bit and he's kinda, right? And so if this is what's occurring, if he can stand upright or if she can stand upright, there's actually room. But this is what happened in his childhood that made him, this is the only way he could maintain his sense of self. And so if he stands upright and goes vulnerable, this is the, this is the, the position of vulnerability. I'm upright in myself, I'm gonna say my truth, even if it's scary. I'm gonna move to that vulnerability. Then there's a chance that they can actually really connect, but they're not even fucking connecting like this anyways. So that's, that's, that's the way. So it's actually announcing the thing that you're scared of.

• 49:51Speaker 00

  Like take double clicking or triple clicking down into the thing.

• 49:54André Duqum?

  So take it a step further, because if you go from this to here and you name it, and you can actually have a conscious conversation where you're not just projecting and it can be met in communication, but you still feel emotionally conflicted of, because at the end of the day, at the end of the day, a decision needs to be made. Like commitment, one way or the other, needs to, needs to come to fruition. You want to respect their time. How does one, if they're seeking clarity of like, we're still having this conversation, but I still don't know which direction to go in, what would you say in that scenario? Like just more time?

• 50:30Speaker 00

  I would say, if I was coaching the person, what I would say is,

• 50:39Speaker 00

  What would be required for you to commit? What would be required for you to happily walk away? And then I would say, if you were 100% fully yourself with that person, like, the experiment I'd say is, go be 100% fully yourself with that person and see what happens. You might want to leave, you might want to stay, she might want to leave, she might want to stay, but I can guarantee you that you're not being 100% fully yourself with that person.

• 51:10André Duqum?

  Hey, guys. You might recall that I had a guest on last month, the Zen master and meditation teacher, Henry Shukman. Together, we spoke about the path of awakening, the Zen tradition, and how transformative a meditation practice can truly be. There are so many different paths and various meditation lineages one could take up, but the most important kind of meditation is the one that you actually do and are consistent with. And so I'm excited to share that Henry's app, The Way, are offering 30 free sessions to all of you. It's the only app with a single, long-term path of meditation training that grows your practice step by step, helping you feel calmer, less reactive, and more filled with gratitude. I think that for those who are wanting to start a consistent meditation practice or

• 51:55André Duqum?

  explore it deeper with a new teacher, this is an incredible place for that. In full transparency, I rarely use apps or guided audios, but The Way app is among a small, elite few that I could actually confidently recommend. It takes the guesswork out of your practice, and each day reveals the next session in the journey. So, to help you get started, Nole Self listeners get 30 free sessions with Henry. And to take advantage of that, just go to thewayapp.com/nollesself to begin your journey. I hope you enjoy. Happy meditating.

• 52:30André Duqum?

  It's so fascinating how we have all these subconscious stories also of what a potential relationship or decision will mean for us and the death of a self to a certain degree, going from a boy to a man, a prince to a king.

• 52:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:44André Duqum?

  I think this is a big thing. I know, I speak to a lot of my women friends who feel like there's all these guys out there that have commitment issues.

• 52:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:54André Duqum?

  That there is this spaciousness and lack of urgency a lot of times as a man, especially in the culture we live, to just kind of keep kicking that can down the road, can kind of have kids whenever. Women, there is that biological clock, there's a bit more pressure, you could say, for many.

• 53:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:10André Duqum?

  And there's a lot of this.

• 53:12Speaker 00

  Lot of this, lot of people working that issue out.

• 53:15André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 53:16Speaker 00

  Yeah. And, right, and the question is like, which one of these, if you're a woman or a man, are you doing? Because either one just sucks. You know, chasing love sucks. Being chased sucks. Being upright in your own love, like, that's the, that's the work for the woman or the man. It's like, can you be upright in your own love? And so, to me, it's, I could, we could work on the relationship issue all, all day, and it could get nowhere, but you figure out how to be upright in your own love. So for

• 53:56Speaker 00

  just as much as this guy's love was dominant, being dominated, this person's love was chasing, right? So, and so their job is to learn how to remove chasing as part of love, and their job is to remove dominance as part of love and just be in love. Yeah. But it is a thing that's happening in our society right now. It's a, it's an amazing thing to watch it. And I think what people forget is that there are lots and lots of people who are getting married at 27.

• 54:26Speaker 00

  You know, so there's, there's also that and it's weird how we in this world like have a hard time seeing it. And I think oftentimes, the men who are being chased are the ones who are self-reliant. They're like, I have my life. I have a good thing going. I've made my own business. I've like, I have this really nice life. They're the ones being chased, but they're also the ones that learn self-reliance. And the self-reliance pattern, I love this pattern, personal, personal favorite. The self-reliance pattern goes as follows. And when I say this, like, half the audience will be like, shit, that's me. So self-reliance means when you were young, you learnt that your job was to take care of your parent and that your parent wasn't particularly going to be able to take care

• 55:08Speaker 00

  of you. And so that means that you have a hard time being able to express your needs. You have a hard time being able to express what you want. You have a hard time expressing when you're hurt, because when you're a kid, you're not going to get your hurt met. You're not going to get your wants met. You're not going to get your needs met. So you learn to just shove all that down. You're obviously very capable of making a good life for yourself. And then typically, there's some authority issues that come along with it. You need to be not, because the authority wasn't to be trusted, shouldn't have been trusted because your job was to take care of them. That's not right. And so you don't trust

• 55:51Speaker 00

  authority typically. And so there's some authority issues and that your job is to make other people happy. So if you think of all that, why on earth would you want to be in a relationship? Right? Because my job is going to make them happy. I'm still going to have to take care of everything for myself and I'm not going to be able to express my needs or wants. So none of that shit's going to get met. And now I just have somebody else that I have to take care of. That's the self-reliant pattern that's on the other side of the needy pattern typically. And I think Like, that's a way to break down what needs to be felt for that person is the helplessness of, like, I'm actually can't do it all myself. That's a huge thing to be felt.

• 56:33Speaker 00

  And then to feel whatever needs to be felt when expressing a want, when expressing a need, when expressing hurt. And those that you, when I watch people go from that self-reliant pattern to a pattern where they have tons of support and love in their life, in such a short period of time, by just saying on the regular basis, this is what I want, this is where I hurt, this is, these are my needs. And self-reliant people, they typically like, needs, I have water, food, and shelter. It's like, yeah, but like, are you gonna be happy without communication and sex and, and love? And those are also needs to thrive, not the needs to survive, but the needs to thrive. We have them.

• 57:16André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 57:17Speaker 00

  And so, that, that'll totally change that pattern because they're gonna have to feel all the stuff they have to feel to say those things.

• 57:25André Duqum?

  To like, fully own your wants and your needs, which can be terrifying to admit and announce.

• 57:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, requires a lot of vulnerability.

• 57:33André Duqum?

  Yeah. Well, anything you would say on the women's side, her, and of course, this is an overgeneralization, there can be many different textures of this, but there is this unrequited feeling of the, of the chasing, of feeling like they're waiting.

• 57:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 57:46André Duqum?

  How, to stand upright is, I think, the goal on both sides, right?

• 57:50Speaker 00

  So, the thing that both of them are doing that's really important, and then we'll go into the women, is they're both doing this. So, the man, the self-reliant man is actually saying, I wanna be loved, I wanna be nurtured, I wanna be cared for, but I can't trust you to do it. And you're not competent enough, and I'm gonna take care of you. And like, so there's this position going on.

• 58:08André Duqum?

  Yes.

• 58:08Speaker 00

  Love me, get away from me. The same thing is happening with the needy position, which is, I want you, I want you, I want you, but I'm needy. So, like, why the fuck would you want me back? Like, so there's this happening. Both of those two things are occurring. And it's the same, in some ways, it's the same pattern, not the self-reliant pattern, but it is the pattern of, I'm actually pushing love away because I'm scared I'm going to merge. Right, so if you talk to any of those women who are constantly in the chase and not getting it, and you ask them like, "What happened in your last relationship?" They're like, "I totally abandoned myself and I just like dedicated to this guy and then the guy left me."

• 58:49Speaker 00

  And, right, they totally abandoned, they totally went into the merge and they don't want to merge again. So the way they do that is to get unavailable men and so they're repeating the pattern. And so, again, the feeling for them is often, "How do I feel that abandonment? How do I feel that like loss? How do I let the heartbreak of, not the heartbreak of, "Oh, poor me," but like the actual heartbreak of, "I am going to be abandoned." I don't care if you get married to the greatest guy on earth. He's gonna abandon you from time to time. He's not gonna be everything you want.

• 59:33Speaker 00

  That's gonna happen. You're both gonna be human. Shit's gonna go down. Can you allow yourself fully the grief that somebody wasn't there for you the way that you wanted them to be there for you? And really deeply feel that grief. And if you can, and some other things like, a woman who's, even men do this too, right? They do the chasing thing. What do you have to feel to not chase? "I wanna chase, I wanna..." "No, I'm not gonna send that text message." What do I have to feel? What's the thing that I have to feel? "I'm not gonna be taken care of" is often another one, like, "Oh, I have to feel like, oh, I'm in this on my own. This is all me. I have to do this all myself." And to feel that, not that that's true, but you have to feel that experience.

• 1:00:18Speaker 00

  And so if they can feel those emotions, then they will be in that upright position. They'll stop doing the same pattern. But they're both equally responsible. Like, it's a nice idea that it's like the man who's responsible, but if you're chasing unavailable men, like, that's not a them issue. That's a you issue. And equal pain on both sides. And no one's better or worse.

• 1:00:42André Duqum?

  Yeah, taking that responsibility for what your piece is and what the fundamental feelings were avoiding and how that's externalizing as a behavior that we could point to as the problem, you know, it's like, oh, they're avoidant and that's the issue.

• 1:01:00Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:01:00André Duqum?

  Rather than the part that we have to play in the process of what we're avoiding feeling. It's just a good observation.

• 1:01:08Speaker 00

  And there's a nuance there, which is interesting. So what some people will do is they'll take that information and they'll say, "I'm not going to tell you about your avoidance issues because I have to figure out my shit first." Horrible decision. Just as horrible, this is all because of your avoidance issue. Horrible decision. What I notice is that in our relationship, you're avoidant and I'm chasing. And all I know is that feels like shit. I'm wondering how that feels to you. And I wonder like, what's the world you want to create with me? That's the real conversation. But what we do is we think, is it my fault or their

• 1:01:47Speaker 00

  fault? Hooey. It's like, it's, all it is, is like, you are in a dynamic together. Do you want to heal the dynamic together? Or do you want to go and heal the dynamic separately? Or do you just want to repeat the same pattern until you're 80? Also an option.

• 1:02:03André Duqum?

  Could you repeat the quote of the, "Joy is the matriarch"?

• 1:02:10Speaker 00

  Yeah. Joy is the matriarch of a family of emotions and she won't come into a house that her children aren't welcome.

• 1:02:15André Duqum?

  The children being all the other emotions?

• 1:02:19Speaker 00

  All the other emotions.

• 1:02:20André Duqum?

  The shame, the fear, the guilt.

• 1:02:22Speaker 00

  Exactly. All of it. The sadness, the grief, the anger.

• 1:02:28André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:29Speaker 00

  Anger's a big one. So many people don't feel their anger.

• 1:02:32André Duqum?

  What do people usually masquerade their anger with?

• 1:02:36Speaker 00

  It depends societally. You know, a lot of it's passive aggression.

• 1:02:43André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:43Speaker 00

  So repressed anger looks like passive aggression, depression, the feeling of stuck, procrastination, disappointment, guilt. Those are all forms of repressed anger.

• 1:02:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, even sometimes sadness. A great story is my daughter. My daughter is about nine or 10 years old. She's in the bathroom. She's crying. I go in and I'm like hanging out with her. I was like, you're crying, but you look angry. She goes, I am. I'm like, how often when you're sad are you angry? She's like, about half the time. I was like, why? I was not expecting an answer. She goes, because when I get angry at my sister, she's bigger than me and she just bobs me on the head. But if I get sad, she does what I want.

• 1:03:40André Duqum?

  Man, if that isn't a perfect explanation to so many dynamics that are going on.

• 1:03:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:03:46André Duqum?

  Subtle manipulations.

• 1:03:47Speaker 00

  Yeah. So that, all that is repressed anger. And there's so much vitality in anger. There's so much determination and ambition, just all stuck in repressed anger. All these beautiful aspects of humanity.

• 1:04:00André Duqum?

  And it's easy to demonize too, but like that is also the way we've learned to cope to get our needs met.

• 1:04:05Speaker 00

  Correct. Yeah, that's right. All of this is just the things that we had to do as kids to get our needs met. Yeah. And just to be clear, because I know some people have some issues here. When I'm saying getting angry, I don't mean getting angry at somebody. Like move your anger, but don't do it in a way that destroys things or just hurts people. Or is actually, all of your emotions aren't really, they're not best to be done at. I would recommend not doing them at people. You can be sad at somebody. Like you can cry to get them to change what they're doing. You can be scared at somebody. I'm really worried about you. You know, you can be angry at somebody. God damn it, why don't you? All of that is meant to control somebody else. All of that is abuse. It's all emotional abuse.

• 1:04:51André Duqum?

  When you're speaking about that relationship dynamics, I just think of how when that pattern is repeated so, so many times, we're like in this position where we continually think there's an external circumstance that once it's fulfilled, we will be.

• 1:05:06Speaker 00

  And

• 1:05:08André Duqum?

  and I just think of like

• 1:05:09Speaker 00

  Never.

• 1:05:09André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:10Speaker 00

  Never.

• 1:05:10André Duqum?

  What would you say humility is taking your God given place on the planet?

• 1:05:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:05:15André Duqum?

  So like, I think about the natural world and what has its own God given place, the flowers that bloom and that naturally attract the bees.

• 1:05:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:05:24André Duqum?

  I think that we're fundamentally most attracted to wholeness and not pretense, being what you actually are.

• 1:05:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:05:31André Duqum?

  And I think that also changes the relationship dynamic. Just to tie a bow on that is like when you realize and you, you see this dynamic that's playing out of chasing and being chased, for example.

• 1:05:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:05:41André Duqum?

  And then you kind of feel your feelings and then you be in yourself. And like

• 1:05:47André Duqum?

  that dynamic, the, the, the magnetic pull's in kind of back and forth, I feel like dissolves. And then you can actually get what's meant for you in, in a lot of ways.

• 1:05:55Speaker 00

  Absolutely. And, and we're attracted to the exact thing that can provide it. Right? Like I was attracted to the exact woman who could, you know, fit my puzzle piece of dysfunction. Our dysfunctions came together like that so we could learn our lessons. And I have not met a, a couple that's been together for more than five months where that's not the case. Now whether they're willing to do it or not is a huge thing. And when I get asked that advice, like, do I commit? Do I not commit? And it's like, can you grow together? If you can't, then

• 1:06:28Speaker 00

  good luck.

• 1:06:30Speaker 00

  Then have a life of non-growth and see how that goes. But yeah.

• 1:06:34André Duqum?

  To me, this like it changes the whole conception of like awakening and growth being like the turning away from the world, right? The go live in the Himalayan caves by taking space. You can really observe yourself and all this stuff. What I love so much about your work and also the embodiment of actually having a wife and children where you've I've like met one of your daughters.

• 1:06:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:06:54André Duqum?

  I can tell you have embodiment and you practice what you preach and that's that's evident in the children you've raised.

• 1:07:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:07:00André Duqum?

  It's really beautiful.

• 1:07:02Speaker 00

  She just she just agreed to do a podcast with me.

• 1:07:05André Duqum?

  Oh, amazing.

• 1:07:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, so we just shot a podcast, so I'm really I'm really excited about it. She totally admonishes me right in the middle of the podcast, too. It's awesome.

• 1:07:15André Duqum?

  So good, so good.

• 1:07:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:07:16André Duqum?

  But like, for a lot of the men that maybe have a self-reliant tendency, okay, there's a death of self that needs to occur to realize that

• 1:07:26André Duqum?

  growth actually likely is going to come most by turning into the world, whether it's business, whether it's relationships. But we can view all these different aspects of life as continual opportunities to deepen connection with self and other.

• 1:07:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:07:39André Duqum?

  Which we were formerly under the presumption of like to to to move away from that stuff. I think you mentioned something in the last podcast of like, I can live on top of a disco when you're awakened and when you're enlightened, but you don't want to.

• 1:07:53Speaker 00

  Right, yeah.

• 1:07:53André Duqum?

  But being able to and going and meeting those different, you know, challenging at times circumstances, like raising kids often will give you the experience of.

• 1:08:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, that was one of my favorite quotes from Stephen Harrison. Show me an enlightened person. Give me an enlightened person. I'll put him in the back of the car with two yelling kids and we'll see how enlightened they are in four hours.

• 1:08:14Speaker 00

  I've always loved that.

• 1:08:15André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:16Speaker 00

  I always love that saying.

• 1:08:17André Duqum?

  Yeah. So so any extra thoughts there you have on

• 1:08:22André Duqum?

  turning towards the world and by embracing the fullness of experience, like that being actually where you're going to find the most growth?

• 1:08:32Speaker 00

  I so I would say that there's like a breath in and a breath out. So I'm really grateful that I spent a lot of time meditating. So I think both of the like and and even today, I sat by myself in the woods for three days meditating and and writing. Like, that was my internal space. And so I do think both are really awesome to have. But what I can tell you is it's really easy to pretend you're at peace in the world on a meditation pillow and it's not in the real life. So real life to me is where I get to see everything that isn't working.

• 1:09:10Speaker 00

  Right? My kids, you know, trigger me, you know? The other day, I found, my friend has a Tesla that drives, you know, drives itself. And I don't like driving. And I was like, oh, you know, but buying a Tesla these days, you know, my wife and daughter are just like, no, you can't buy a Tesla. And like ensues this like 20 minute like shitstorm on me, you know? And I think my wife was like, if you get a Tesla, I get two monkeys and a cow. And like, it was like this whole thing. And, and the fact that I can laugh through all of that and like, that brings us closer together.

• 1:09:53Speaker 00

  And to me, that's, that means, that means I've done something significant. To get that experience of like big oneness and expansion that like is now background for me, I would argue. Not argue, I would, I would say that expansion, that feeling of expansive and oneness is just, it is just background is so insignificant compared to my capacity to

• 1:10:23Speaker 00

  be with my daughter when she's crying. Like that's far more like that I can, when, when she needs something, she knows that she can call me up and I cannot belittle her. I cannot take care of her. I don't disempower her, but I can care for her and she wants to come to me. Like that is so much more rewarding than anything. And it, and it doesn't come from not feeling bad stuff. I mean, that's the weird part. I was, when I started this teaching, I went and visited a friend who's, who's a retired teacher, his name was Adiyasante. And I was like, he's like, what are you doing? And I said, you know, generally we're just helping people.

• 1:11:09Speaker 00

  You know, learn to love all of their emotions. And he's like, just a straight awakening teacher. I don't know if you know who he is.

• 1:11:14André Duqum?

  Yeah, of course.

• 1:11:15Speaker 00

  Just straight awakening teacher.

• 1:11:16André Duqum?

  Yeah, I love his book, End of Your World.

• 1:11:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, he was, he was very important in my life. And he's like, oh, that's great. I think that's a, that's a really important thing. And I was like, really? I'm surprised that you would think so. And he's like, Joe, 90% of the questions that I get are, how do I feel more of blank? Or how do I feel less of blank? And there's a way in which like, almost all of that meditation journey is trying to feel a certain way, which is what it was for me. I just want that feeling of expansion. And it's amazing when, instead of, the answer doesn't lie in, oh, I'm now only feeling that way. The expansion lies in, I get to feel all these ways and they're all wonderful.

• 1:11:59Speaker 00

  That is just a far more fulfilling life.

• 1:12:05Speaker 02

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• 1:12:35André Duqum?

  What does it come back to? I know you have this unique combination of both being a non-dual practitioner for so many years and then doing this deep emotional work. So you get to see the patterns of what's the origination, what's underneath the surface of what people proclaim they want and what they say they need are and all these things. Like, they're seeking something, which they might say is X, Y, and Z, fill in the blank.

• 1:12:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:13:00André Duqum?

  But there's so many of these sayings of like, what you're looking for is the place you're looking from. The seeker is the sought.

• 1:13:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:13:06André Duqum?

  The analogy of the lighthouse of, you know, looking for its own light, realizing that it's the source of its own illumination.

• 1:13:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:13:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:13:14André Duqum?

  Yeah. What do you think we're fundamentally looking for?

• 1:13:17Speaker 00

  So I don't think we're looking for one thing. I think we're looking for many things. And I think all of those phrases of the seeker is the that which is being sought. All those.

• 1:13:27André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:28Speaker 00

  Things. I think that's.

• 1:13:31Speaker 00

  Those are all pointers to there's nothing wrong with you. Some version of some pointer of there's nothing wrong with you. That there's no, there's only the awareness of self. There's not the self improvement is the way that I think about that. So I think one of the things that we all want to have a deep intimate relationship with who we actually are. I think we all want love. I think we all want to feel like we're of service. Be of value. It's not, value is a kind of a hard one. It doesn't mean like I've worked and I've been a value, but it's like, I am contributing. I think all of us want all of those things. So I don't think it's just one thing. What I do see is that

• 1:14:17Speaker 00

  the one that seems to unlock, the loved one seems to unlock. So I used to think that the only way to get to the head awakening was

• 1:14:27Speaker 00

  seeing through sense of self through silence. That's what I thought. I now have seen people have head awakenings, seen through sense of self lots of ways, like seeing through sense of self because of group dynamics, seeing through sense of self in emotional work. I've like, I've seen lots of ways for that sense of self disintegrate. I think one point I counted like seven or eight different ways that it can happen.

• 1:14:51Speaker 00

  So, but that, that part of it is the knowing of knowing like knowing, knowing thyself. It's like actually knowing yourself. I think the, the love is more in the, in the heart awakening part. And we all want that as well. We all want to separate what we were trained came with love and just get like the love.

• 1:15:14André Duqum?

  Right.

• 1:15:14Speaker 00

  Cause we, love came with abuse or criticism. And so we just, that's what we think love is. And so we're scared of it and we want it at the same time. And that if people have those two things, everything else seems to become unimportant because there's nothing left to defend or earn or prove anymore when when those things are there. Which tells me that's it. And then there's all that's left is I want to contribute.

• 1:15:44André Duqum?

  Yeah, I'm curious your thoughts on how this like journey doesn't end.

• 1:15:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:15:49André Duqum?

  You know, it's like you realize these things. Then it's like, OK, you know, there is, there's a lot of work that needs to be done, and there's nothing that needs to be done.

• 1:15:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:15:58André Duqum?

  But like asking, what does the world fundamentally need? And then just like living your life in service to that.

• 1:16:05Speaker 00

  It doesn't, that's not how it works for me.

• 1:16:07André Duqum?

  How does it work for you?

• 1:16:08Speaker 00

  The way it works for me is

• 1:16:12Speaker 00

  if I'm quiet and I listen, there's a call and I do the thing that I'm called to do, even when it's super fucking uncomfortable. Sometimes it's great, it's super comfortable, but sometimes it's very, very uncomfortable. And I feel like there's a masculine form of of surrender and there's a feminine form of surrender. The feminine form of surrender is what we know more. It's like allowing yourself to receive. It's gratitude. It's like that feeling of like.

• 1:16:38Speaker 00

  And they, these two things rely on each other to build. But it's like, oh, it's like, oh, it's like the devotional surrendering. Then there's the masculine form of surrender, which is there's a doing that needs done. And it's not my will, it's thy will be done. It's right, it's, it's. I hear the thing that I'm supposed to do and I follow that without question. That's, I would say, the masculine form of surrender. Meaning it's the more yang, less yang kind of thing. And, and so the way it works for me is like deeply listening to that calling and doing it. And, and, and in that, like my want, my wants are actually a deep part of my evolution.

• 1:17:23Speaker 00

  Meaning a little kid wants to learn how to walk. You can see it, they have that deep want. I trust my wants the same way, that the wants that I have today are the things that will help me grow as a human being, are the things that I'm, are the places that I want to contribute. And that's gotten in, you know, I was just talking to Charlie about this, like.

• 1:17:45André Duqum?

  Charlie Hooper, charisma on command. Yeah. Both dear friend.

• 1:17:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, great, great human. I was just talking to him about this. I was telling him, you know, his audience is young men and I'm like grinding his bullshit. It's just absolute bullshit. And I said, but that's coming from a guy who works from like seven thirty in the morning until ten o'clock at night. I always put my phone down for my daughter. I always have time for my family, have time for exercise, but I don't do anything that I wouldn't do for free. Like I'm not working to achieve anything. I'm just doing the thing that I'm deeply passionate about, which is the thing that helps me grow as a human being. And, you know, like this week I had personal growth as a human being because I was doing that work.

• 1:18:33Speaker 00

  And hundreds of people have written to me and said, you changed my life this week. And so to me, I find that, you know, it's like a, it's, it's not a question when you get to that place. It's like you're more like a tree. The sun is there. I reached towards that sun. I know that that's what I'm supposed to do. I bear the fruit that I bear. People eat the fruit that they're eating and I am just in alignment with that whole thing. And so at some point, even the idea of I'm contributing starts to dissolve to I'm being nurtured and I'm nurturing. It's like, it's like one, it's one movement.

• 1:19:12Speaker 00

  And if I can't, like I said earlier, I think I said this earlier, you can't be, you can't be grateful for what you can't admit. You cannot, if you cannot receive, if I can't let my heart be broken by those YouTube comments where people think their lives are changed, then my capacity to give is lessened.

• 1:19:35Speaker 00

  And that it's the same principle. If I can't actually fully acknowledge it and let that in, then it's harder for me to actually continue to contribute.

• 1:19:43André Duqum?

  What you just described and like the energy that you're coming from with a lot of the work that you're doing, I think is a message that needs to be heard so much right now because there's this pervasive manosphere message of the hustle and grind culture.

• 1:19:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:19:57André Duqum?

  And like, I don't know, maybe there's a developmental process in which that's something a lot of people need to grow through and find out the emptiness of it, or that it's just not as clean of a fuel source as the other one.

• 1:20:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:20:12André Duqum?

  But we don't have much conscious enlightened leadership that are living the example of like doing what you're doing from the place and what you're doing it from. Is, at least it's not as loud on social media.

• 1:20:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, not as loud, yeah. Because it, you know, people like to do things that, that agree with their shame, right? So, in social media, you should do da, da, da, you're right, my brain says the same thing, I should do blah, blah, blah, and so off they go. But there's a lot of examples. So, there was a young woman who was Chinese-American who won this gold for skiing. And when she talks about it, she has a famous video on YouTube. I did a comment on it that I will release it.

• 1:20:56André Duqum?

  Eileen Gu or something?

• 1:20:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think, yeah, I think that's right. She's like, I don't know, I just love to ski, I love to ski, I love to ski. There's like the world's best golfer, he's like, I just love to practice, I just love to practice. They're not grinding, they're doing what they love. And I don't care who you are, if you're gonna grind and you're not doing something you love, that's the distinction. I do something I love, so it's not grinding. If you're gonna grind, you will burn out. If you're really good, you might like get to retirement money. If you're normal, you're not gonna get to retirement money. You might burn out by like being depressed for five years after you retire. You might burn out by like watching video, playing video games and watching porn for

• 1:21:39Speaker 00

  the weekend, or binge Netflix, but you're gonna burn out. And if you don't wanna burn out, then the only thing you can do is not grind. But that doesn't mean not work, it just means you're actually in alignment with what you want. And the way I think about this, especially with CEOs who, you know, a lot of them have that grind mentality that I work with. Okay, so.

• 1:22:04Speaker 00

  You got one person who is, you know, willing to give it 20, 30, 40, 50, 100% more effort. And they're going to ride this bike up a hill. And there's this other person who's going to ride the bike up the hill like a normal human being. However, this bike is going to have wobbly wheels and it's not going to have alignment and the chain's going to be like loose. And this person's going to have like a perfectly well-aligned, you know, 18-speed bike. Who are you betting on?

• 1:22:33Speaker 00

  And so the thing we're talking about is if you're in grind mode, you're not in alignment mode. It means you're doing something that you think you should do, not the thing that actually you're obsessed on. If you're doing the thing you're obsessed on, then you're not in grind mode because you're obsessed, this is what you want to be doing. And so, most of the time, I assume that your reality is something like this. You care a lot about this work. This is a personal passion.

• 1:23:03Speaker 00

  When you start working with other people, it surprises you how strong your work ethic is, that you're like, oh my gosh, I am like, I thought this was just normal, the way people work, but other people aren't like matching that same level of... But to you, it's not even, it's not grinding, it's just, no, I just do the thing that's necessary because this is the thing I want to see in the world.

• 1:23:25André Duqum?

  Yeah. Yeah, this is, this is something I'm glad we're touching on. The Taoist maxim says that the master does nothing yet leaves nothing undone. I really love it because it just to me speaks exactly to this energy of effortless effort.

• 1:23:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's right.

• 1:23:42André Duqum?

  Non-action, action. And I think so many of us hear that and we yearn for it. We see that some people, that it's possible and have yet to get clear on what that is for us.

• 1:23:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:23:54André Duqum?

  And so...

• 1:23:57André Duqum?

  What are your thoughts around discerning the things we say that we want that are actually fundamentally being driven by shoulds and somebody else's story that was indoctrinated in us?

• 1:24:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:24:07André Duqum?

  To getting clear on what we actually love and like you said, would do whether or not you were being paid for it.

• 1:24:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:24:14André Duqum?

  I think a lot of people haven't discovered that yet.

• 1:24:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, so there's two things that'll that'll happen naturally if you do not prevent it. Here's two ways to prevent it. One is you don't explore. Like, I'm just supposed to know that. No, you're not supposed to know it. You're supposed to explore. It's not also one thing. If I didn't do this, there'd be something else I would do just equally as passionate that would also serve people, that would also transform consciousness on the planet. It just would, I know that. There's 20 ways that I could do that. This is one of them. So it's not one particular thing. The other, so one way you can prevent it is that you don't explore. And the second way that you can prevent it is to go around going, what's my purpose? What's my purpose? What's my, oh, that'll just kill you. That's just self abuse.

• 1:25:03Speaker 00

  And purpose is found in the moment. It's not found in the in the future. So it's what do I want to be doing right now? What do I, like, what would like inspire me right now is where you're going to find your purpose and it's the best way to explore. And so, you know, the way I did it was I just said yes to everything. Anything I just said yes to until there was so much stuff that I could only say yes to some of the things. And then whatever, and then all of a sudden I could say yes to less and less and less stuff. And the stuff I said yes to was perfectly that stuff. So that's, I just made myself available and said yes to everything.

• 1:25:46Speaker 00

  And I was lucky enough that I could do that.

• 1:25:51Speaker 00

  I didn't require much money and I just, I mean, I was doing like metalworking and I was, you know, helping in construction and I was doing international stock lending and I was doing large scale loan. I just literally just said yes to everything, any experience I could get my hands on. And then all of a sudden it just started narrowing and narrowing into this. And so I think that that's, people think that they're going to think their way into it because they don't want to actually feel the helplessness of, I don't know. What it is and part of I was talking about that masculine form of of surrender is like you have to be in the unknown.

• 1:26:32Speaker 00

  It you know, it is not like I am surrendering to this eight point plan that's going to do exactly X, Y, and Z, and I'll be here in six years. That's just not how it works. And so the first thing that you have to learn to live your purpose is to live in the not known. And if you can't get that lesson right, you're never particularly going to find your purpose. If you're constantly gotta know it, gotta know it, gotta know it, it's going to get in the way of your capacity to do the work that you're called to do.

• 1:27:01André Duqum?

  I think a lot of people feel the world is speeding up right now.

• 1:27:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, boy, yeah, we're in a we're in a phase. We are in a transformation.

• 1:27:10André Duqum?

  Yeah. Yeah. No, and I know you obviously work with OpenAI, a lot of these various companies who are. Yeah, some of the biggest organizations that are that are leading that rapid transformation.

• 1:27:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:27:25André Duqum?

  And so you're you have eyes and ears in the rooms of where a lot of these decisions are being made. A lot of people can feel this rapid transformation.

• 1:27:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:27:34André Duqum?

  It's hard to not feel at times like we're being left behind or that there is change or, you know, things we're missing out on, you know? And I think that is what it means to be human and like wisdom versus knowledge and information, like that distinction is going to be getting clearer and clear. But I'm curious, what are your observations about like what time we're in like transforming in societally and how things feel like they're speeding up with our own individual process to not let it consume us and to like get clear in that process, if that makes sense?

• 1:28:09Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, as we have like a number of transformations, I think, happening societally, you know, I'm a huge fan of.

• 1:28:19Speaker 00

  You know, I think of kind of the historical changes of America. So we're in two of those simultaneously. We're in the 50 year transition where the parties change who follows them. And we're also in the 80 year transition of where we recreate our institutions, right? So there's a great book on that.

• 1:28:44André Duqum?

  The Fourth Turning?

• 1:28:44Speaker 00

  The Fourth Turning.

• 1:28:45André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:45Speaker 00

  So.

• 1:28:46André Duqum?

  Great.

• 1:28:46Speaker 00

  And there's, you can talk to like 10 geopoliticians who will talk about different versions of the Fourth Turning. But basically, so we're in the like all, and then we're in this AI transition that's all happening. So, good news is, you know, when somebody comes into one of my courses and they are going through some hardcore life thing, you know, like divorce or new job or something like that, they are the ones that are most prepared to have the biggest change and biggest life transformation. They're like most likely going to be one of those people because those things are what create transformation in us.

• 1:29:24Speaker 00

  So the good news is as a society, we are perfectly poised to have like a massive positive and/or negative transition. And we get to choose that and we get to choose that personally for ourselves. And I think that's the exciting piece to it. I think what happens as far as the economy and what I've seen there is that there's a couple of things to say about it. Knowledge is going to become commoditized. So I need a PhD, boop, got one. I need somebody who understands marketing, boop, got it. I need a coach, boop, got it, right?

• 1:30:08Speaker 00

  So that's all gonna go away. So then what happens if it's not, you know, when the physical work went away, you couldn't be an artisan anymore, right? You had to be in the information game, bank teller, something like that, some sort of human interaction piece.

• 1:30:26Speaker 00

  But you could still depend on your knowledge. But pretty soon, you're not going to get that anymore. It's just going to be on the wisdom, just going to be on the human interaction side of things. And so what I see happening is teams are going to become smaller and smaller with more capitalization put behind those teams. So it's going to look like the MBA. A lot more MBA and a lot less John Deere, you know, or farm workers. It's going to, especially when the robots come, which I think is easily inside of a decade. So you're going to just see a lot of capitalization going behind a small amount of people. And the way that that team works together and the way that they understand themselves, their ability to lead, motivate, make great decisions.

• 1:31:10Speaker 00

  Because the one thing you can't do is have the machine make the decision for you in all cases. And so it's going to be really based on wisdom and self-understanding is going to be the thing that creates the edge of being able to be successful in our world. And so I think that's what's also moving. Wisdom, just to be clear, wisdom isn't, I'm at peace. Wisdom is, I know when to act. And I know how to act in such a way that creates the result in myself and others that I want to see in the world. Wisdom is going beyond the ambition of I can grow a billion-dollar company

• 1:31:53Speaker 00

  or a 10 billion or 100 billion or trillion-dollar company. And it's I can build a trillion-dollar company where people are happy, where families are healthy, where people want to come and work and want to contribute to their life, want to contribute to each other's lives. That is what's going to be required for you to be able to get those teams to move forward in that way. And then the other thing that I think is absolutely true is that the whole...

• 1:32:24Speaker 00

  The like if I go into almost any AI company and any computer program company, SaaS company, things are changing at lightning speed. Nobody knows everything that's going on. Most companies look different every three months. It's like a massive, massive transformation. And what I notice is emotional fluidity allows people the ability to transition quickly. If you can't grieve it, you're not going to be able to transition your identity. If you can't be excited, you're not going to be able to make the transition. If you so, wow, we thought we were doing this. You just committed your life to this, but this no longer works. Now we have to do that. That's an emotional transition.

• 1:33:09Speaker 00

  If you cannot make the emotional transition, you're just gonna you're, you know, you'll be like the guys at the steel mills in the 1970s. They couldn't make the emotional transition. And so, you know, they had a decade or two of misery. And so that's another piece that I think is really important.

• 1:33:29André Duqum?

  What's vagal authority? Something that goes in nicely here.

• 1:33:33Speaker 00

  Yeah. Vagal authority, the best way I know how to describe vagal authority is an EMT walks into a site and there's blood and guts everywhere. They do not run over to the person with blood and guts. They walk. And that's what it is. It's the nervous like mine, I keep, keep a not calm nervous system and that helps everybody else keep a calm nervous system. That's what vagal authority is. That'll be one of those things that leaders are going to need to have to give them the edge, right? Today, if they're really smart, they don't need to have that and they can still be successful. In the future.

• 1:34:19Speaker 00

  Their smartness will be commoditized. So what'll matter is can they walk into a situation and calm the situation down? Or excite the situation so that you get the best results? Those are the things computers aren't going to be able to do.

• 1:34:35André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:36Speaker 00

  Vigil Authority is a really fun. It can, it can get a little weird in controlling. Some, some people are like, okay, I'm gonna. But that's actually, what's cool is that's not Vigil Authority. To go in and be like, hmm, is not Vigil Authority. I'm scared, but I'm not gonna show it. I'm scared, I'm not gonna show it. And the scare, the fear can still be felt. It is literally like, I'm here.

• 1:34:57André Duqum?

  I experienced that with one guest who came on the podcast. So I could tell was like, doing a bit of that posturing. It's like, it's just like a little bit. It was humoring.

• 1:35:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:35:08André Duqum?

  But again, it's like, if that need to feel like you're going to posture yourself as the most secure one is actually stemming from a place of insecurity.

• 1:35:15Speaker 00

  Correct.

• 1:35:16André Duqum?

  Where the one who's actually regulated is actually in training the space.

• 1:35:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:35:22André Duqum?

  Which I think is important as we experience a time where there's so much more growth and transition happening. It's like, whether it's our family, our businesses, the environments and rooms that we step into, can we be regulated in ourself so that we can actually be the most effective agents of change?

• 1:35:39Speaker 00

  Without trying. It's like, just even the trying is a form of dysregulation. And it's okay to do it for a while, but just knowing that like, oh, the fact that I have to try to do this is, is very different than if I, I'm, I actually see through the false fear.

• 1:35:58André Duqum?

  Yeah. Yeah, the veracity and the, the posturing and the signaling of oftentimes, those who get the most attention are usually the loudest. But the loudest should not be conflated with power.

• 1:36:14Speaker 00

  Yeah. I love this saying, just because you're opinionated doesn't mean you're right.

• 1:36:20André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's a similar, it's a similar thing. Yeah, I, it's an interesting piece that it's.

• 1:36:27Speaker 00

  There's something in us, especially in early stages, where we very much want a bad guy. And, and nobody thinks they're the bad guy. Nobody, nobody's like, I'm the bad guy.

• 1:36:40André Duqum?

  Hitler really thought he was doing God's work.

• 1:36:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:36:42André Duqum?

  You can look at all of the dictators throughout history that have done what we would say is atrocities.

• 1:36:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:36:48André Duqum?

  They were thought they were doing God's work oftentimes.

• 1:36:50Speaker 00

  That's right. And so it's like, we very much want a good guy and a bad guy so that we can be the good guy. And it's an amazing amount of freedom that you can say, oh, I'm, I like, I am both the good guy and the bad guy. And then that being drawn and attracted to the loud person goes away.

• 1:37:09André Duqum?

  Yeah. And we're also most able to affect change when we're no longer under the separative kind of presumption that there's a good and a bad.

• 1:37:19Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:37:19André Duqum?

  That creates conflict and tension inherently. Right? Like if, if you were to have a conversation with Hitler in his moments of making a decision.

• 1:37:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:37:29André Duqum?

  And you were under the presumption that he's this horrible human who's about to do all these horrible things.

• 1:37:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:37:34André Duqum?

  You're not going to be able to communicate with him that actually meets him where he's at, uh, which would actually potentially have some sort of influence.

• 1:37:40Speaker 00

  Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, that's an interesting. Yeah, that one of my principles is that I do not answer a question unless it's asked. And so I'm, I work with people who are doing things that other people think are bad. I get to see underneath the covers. So I get to see, the, the story in the news is never the real story. But I will not answer a question for them if they haven't asked it. Because that's their branch going to their son. Right? Like, this is their job. Occasionally, I'll say, hey, I see something is going completely off. Are you interested in hearing my opinion on that thing?

• 1:38:22Speaker 00

  But, but I'll, I'll still ask to see if that, that it's even wanted.

• 1:38:28André Duqum?

  Is there an emotional order of operations? Meaning, a lot of times we'll assert that we want to feel the joy, piss, bliss, the joy, bliss, peace.

• 1:38:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:38:38André Duqum?

  Or the piss and the bliss.

• 1:38:44André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:46André Duqum?

  But, uh, but like, there's a saying of like, the roots that grow deep allow the branches to go high. When, when we look at fear, guilt, shame, it's a kind of come full circle with the joys and matriarch of family of emotions. And for us to, I think you gave really valuable insights into what are the signals of where I'm repressing or not exploring certain emotions.

• 1:39:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:39:10André Duqum?

  But is there like, do you see that one emotion unlocks the other? How anger and fear and sadness lead to other things?

• 1:39:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, so broadly speaking, negative emotions first, positive emotions second. Positive emotions are actually scarier for people to feel than the negative ones. For more than like two seconds. So if you're a man in kind of modern, upper middle-class white society, it's usually sadness first, anger second, fear third. If you are a woman, it's usually fear, sadness first, I'm sorry, anger first, sadness, fear.

• 1:39:54Speaker 00

  But it really is just depends on your particular.

• 1:39:56André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:57Speaker 00

  Type. What I do notice is sadness and anger are usually the first ones. Fear and then excitement and then love, joy. Or joy, love, and those two depends on your, the way that you are. So it's typically something like that. The other ones, the guilt, the shame, the judgment, that a lot of those just start dissipating if you get the main ones. If you really get like the helplessness, which is a version of fear, the fear, the anger, the sadness, grief, which is all of those things combined, a lot of the other ones just start.

• 1:40:40Speaker 00

  Start just dissipating on their own.

• 1:40:44André Duqum?

  Do you have a lot of unspoken observation of where you feel suppression in a room?

• 1:40:50Speaker 00

  You mean, can I walk into a room and see what's? Yeah. Oh, yeah. If I allow myself to see it.

• 1:40:55André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, so there's, I don't, I mean, it's very not human to walk into a room.

• 1:41:01André Duqum?

  Full analysis.

• 1:41:02Speaker 00

  Do a full analysis. So I try to just walk into a human room as a human. But yeah, I can, yes, I can watch a team. One of the things I'll do is I'll watch a team meeting. I'll spend an hour watching a team meeting and then I'll give an hour long feedback. This is what I see you doing. This is what I see you doing. This is what I see you doing. This is, these are the things that I see you're caught up in. I'll just absolutely lay it out. Yeah, that's definitely part of the, part of the work. Yeah, I think one of the stories that somebody told about me enough times that I remember it. And it kind of gets people scared. I tell this story now to make sure that people I'm working with want to work with me. But I was, as a, you know, multi-billion dollar market cap company.

• 1:41:47Speaker 00

  I'm sitting and the CEO has invited me in. The CEO introduces me, speaks for about seven minutes.

• 1:41:54Speaker 00

  And nobody's listening to them. And then he hands it over to me. And I was like, oh, great. So I just want to go around the room and wonder why none of you were listening to the CEO. We'll go that one by one. And then at the end, I want to ask the CEO what made it that he spoke for seven minutes without being listened to? Like, how could that be okay? Okay, let's go. So like that's, like, it gets really intense.

• 1:42:16André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:17Speaker 00

  In my work, yeah. And, but, you know, in a business, one conversation that isn't had can cost tens of millions of dollars.

• 1:42:27André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:28Speaker 00

  One, one firing that didn't happen in time can cost a lot of money. One, you know, one conflict between marketing and tech can, you know, every one of those is like a moment of friction that can cost a huge amount of time and money and make people feel like they're not winning, which is horrible.

• 1:42:50André Duqum?

  I'm sure because you get, you're doing more and more interviews and these media things.

• 1:42:56André Duqum?

  And a lot of your, the content that you guys are producing, are you doing live coachings for people?

• 1:43:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:43:02André Duqum?

  So people come to you with.

• 1:43:06André Duqum?

  You know, the desire to get insight into something they have a blind spot around.

• 1:43:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:43:09André Duqum?

  And they feel stuck.

• 1:43:12André Duqum?

  Is there anything that you pick up with me? That that would be an observation, whether it's a question to ask myself.

• 1:43:21André Duqum?

  Or I know we've had limited time together. But maybe in the last conversation or this one, is there anything that you see as maybe an area for more room? A room or more room for love, acceptance?

• 1:43:35André Duqum?

  Anything that comes up? I'm just curious if anything comes up.

• 1:43:38Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:43:39André Duqum?

  Great.

• 1:43:41André Duqum?

  Lay it on me, doc.

• 1:43:42Speaker 00

  I think it takes me like, yeah, no, it doesn't. It, I didn't. I'm trying to figure out a way to give that feedback. There's a lot of things that I could say. What, what I could.

• 1:43:52André Duqum?

  How fucked up am I, bro?

• 1:43:54Speaker 00

  Not that.

• 1:43:54André Duqum?

  So many things.

• 1:43:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, so many things on all of us. So it's, it's definitely. So what would I say? What I would say is.

• 1:44:08Speaker 00

  Vulnerability is going to serve you tremendously well. Like sloppy vulnerability.

• 1:44:16Speaker 00

  And there is. And, and, and, and the things that I'm seeing, one of the things that I'm seeing in that that is like the, there's a bit of a perfectionist quality. And. The exactingness of that is like actually a beautifully, wonderfully amazing thing. The exact. The exactingness of it, meaning like the care and precision of that perfection is like awesome. It's like just beautiful. And at the same time, there's a way in which.

• 1:44:47Speaker 00

  It's, you're choosing control over love. And the vulnerability will allow you to see that people will love you even if it's messy.

• 1:44:55André Duqum?

  Yeah, that's spot on.

• 1:44:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:44:59André Duqum?

  What, was it just an intuitive thing or was, could you point to an example where that became evident for you?

• 1:45:07Speaker 00

  I could give you 20 examples.

• 1:45:10André Duqum?

  Full transparency, I would love that.

• 1:45:11Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:45:11André Duqum?

  Anything that comes to mind.

• 1:45:16Speaker 00

  First thing, if I just take today, if I don't take the last time, first thing hits me is the posture.

• 1:45:22André Duqum?

  Physical body posture.

• 1:45:23Speaker 00

  Physical body posture.

• 1:45:25André Duqum?

  Specifically meaning what, like?

• 1:45:27Speaker 00

  You have thought about your posture and you have consciously

• 1:45:32Speaker 00

  tried to create, yeah, adjusted a posture so that that is the precise posture. But it's actually, I mean, I'm just gonna go, I'm just gonna go if you stop me.

• 1:45:41André Duqum?

  Dude, I'm here.

• 1:45:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, okay.

• 1:45:42André Duqum?

  I'm here for it.

• 1:45:42Speaker 00

  And so, which creates like a little bit of rigidity in the system, which means that you have a lot more, what I would call energetic sensitivity than you currently are accessing. And probably because it'd be incredibly overwhelming for you. So that should be a nice, slow movement into it, which is great. But that rigidity, as it lets go into more love, your experience is going to be to feel a lot more than you currently feel. And I don't just mean other people, it's just gonna feel like, oh my God, I can feel the whole world. That's just how it's gonna be in the system. And that can be like extremely overwhelming at times.

• 1:46:22Speaker 00

  And so, taking that movement from rigidity out of it is gonna be, is like just best done slowly. And then at some point, it's just gonna go crack and then call me because that's a whole nother conversation.

• 1:46:34André Duqum?

  Joe, it's all good as shit.

• 1:46:36Speaker 00

  It doesn't go, it doesn't go like that. It's more of like, holy shit, what is all this energy moving through my body? I don't know, that's usually, that conversation happens. I get, I get that phone call, I think now, like, once every two weeks or something now. I made a podcast about it just so that I can be like, listen to the podcast.

• 1:46:55André Duqum?

  Okay.

• 1:46:57Speaker 00

  So that, I'd say that's one, that's underneath it. And, and so that, that just a posture would be the first thing that I saw. I could talk about the ways that you interacted with the film stuff. I can talk about the studio itself and, and. No criticism, no judgment, but that's, yeah. There's like 20 things that I could speak to. You look over at the camera more often than most hosts do to make sure everything's looking all right.

• 1:47:23André Duqum?

  Yeah, I can't help but be a little bit in producer mode while I'm filming.

• 1:47:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:47:27André Duqum?

  Even if I'm just checking for aiming and stuff like that.

• 1:47:29Speaker 00

  Exactly, yeah.

• 1:47:30André Duqum?

  Which some of it, of course, is just like natural podcast maestro. Part of it is perfectionism and, you know, pulls away from presence.

• 1:47:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:47:40André Duqum?

  But, um, okay, great.

• 1:47:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. And so probably in that, like, letting go of the perfectionist from moments to moments, one thing that'll happen is you'll, you'll flip potentially over to non-perfectionism, to the point where quality suffers. Don't do that. Like, like, create the quality that you want to have, because if you do that, then you'll be like, no, and you'll fly back into control more. So that's like one piece, just to learn that there's actually some deep beauty in it, and it has gotten you so much and you've created so many great things with it. So to love the perfectionism, rather than to fight against it,

• 1:48:22Speaker 00

  is going to be like a much smoother transition and quicker transition than it is to like, make that something wrong that you have to fix.

• 1:48:30André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:32Speaker 00

  But really, it's about the feelings underneath of like, oh yeah, I'm actually not in control.

• 1:48:38André Duqum?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:48:39Speaker 00

  Like, is perfect. And there is, and I don't, I can't even describe what perfect is. Like, meaning you could not actually specifically describe what perfect is.

• 1:48:48André Duqum?

  Yeah, of course, yeah.

• 1:48:49Speaker 00

  And so, so that, and so with that will come a lot of emotions, which will be scary at first and then unbelievably beautiful.

• 1:48:57André Duqum?

  Okay, great. Yeah, no, I resonate with that for sure.

• 1:49:03André Duqum?

  And is something I've had in my awareness, I think, just also over the past couple of years more and like had a big few moments where that would became like blaringly obvious to me and then like some residual, you know, some residue that is still material to be work with there.

• 1:49:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:49:21André Duqum?

  Was there, you said there was, there was a few others as well? I'm just curious if you wanna like let him rip?

• 1:49:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'll see.

• 1:49:33Speaker 00

  We talked about the, we talked about the self-reliant pattern.

• 1:49:40André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:40Speaker 00

  That's definitely in your system.

• 1:49:46Speaker 00

  Which means that on some level, there's a weird relationship that you have with like being taken care of and taking care of people at the same time. So I would, I would say that there's, the opportunity in front of you is like to lead, to have a life where you're deeply nurtured and cared for in a way that you, usually when somebody's in this mode, they, their fantasy of being nurtured is something that no adult can actually deliver, was something that the parent was supposed to deliver. But the form of being nurtured that will be available to you, there, like, there will be a person, lover or business person who like, when you, when you see through this

• 1:50:31Speaker 00

  pattern will show up and they will be dedicated to you in a way that you didn't think was possible, where you could feel like, holy crap. Like, really, this is like, you'll come in frustrated and they'll say, oh, I see that you're really frustrated and like, I know that there's something important what's going on. Instead of, you have to not be frustrated so that I can be blah, blah, blah, or whatever the thing is. And so I think there's like a deep form of nurturing that you're, that's available to you on the other side of that pattern.

• 1:51:06André Duqum?

  That's great.

• 1:51:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, better than you, better than the fantasy.

• 1:51:10André Duqum?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:51:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, so that's another one, I would say, the self reliance thing.

• 1:51:14André Duqum?

  Perfectionism, self reliance.

• 1:51:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, the other one that I see is your, is that there's some, your ambition and your spirituality have not hit full alignment.

• 1:51:26André Duqum?

  My ambition and my spirituality have not hit full alignment. Ah, what, like not owning bigness of like, what do you mean by that?

• 1:51:35Speaker 00

  Meaning that.

• 1:51:38André Duqum?

  Like worldly ambition, business ambition and spiritual, yeah.

• 1:51:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's right. So it's probably limiting the growth of your company. Like if I was to guess, your company has plateaued a little bit and you're like, how do I get it to the next level? And it's not really a question of how do you get to the next level? It's how do you feel so in alignment with it that it happens naturally? And so there's, I would suggest potentially that there's like a somewhat lack of alignment, subtle, more subtle than most, between like that full ambition of like, I wanna fucking dominate the world, ah, and I am good and loving. And like, how, how do those two things marry with one another?

• 1:52:18André Duqum?

  Hmm. How do those two things marry with, with one another more so? I'm sure you've confronted this a lot in your own journey as you keep growing and like, I think we were talking a little bit before we actually started recording, you know, like as, as you operate your own business and you really truly believe it's got meaningful work and it's important for people to receive and scaling it becomes a responsibility and

• 1:52:42André Duqum?

  a benevolent endeavor.

• 1:52:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:52:46Speaker 00

  So that, so that.

• 1:52:48André Duqum?

  Like how to own that more, I guess.

• 1:52:49Speaker 00

  That sentence right there tells, tells me just like how I work. That sense right there tells me the constriction that's preventing it.

• 1:52:57André Duqum?

  Okay.

• 1:52:57Speaker 00

  So you called it a responsibility. I think of it like, my metaphor is like the tree. The sun is there, I'm gonna reach towards it. It's not a responsibility. And so there's a responsibility and getting it to people rather than having it so people can.

• 1:53:15André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:15Speaker 00

  Right. Those are the two things.

• 1:53:17André Duqum?

  Yeah, I think I was using the responsibility more the like, it's actually, there's a, there's a joy in responsibility as opposed to more obligation. But, but yeah, I hear you on that.

• 1:53:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:53:28André Duqum?

  Sweet.

• 1:53:29Speaker 00

  So, so that's the, the, the thing that I would say there is that if that self reliance allows the nurturing, then the feeding, like the, the nourishment will grow the business.

• 1:53:42André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:43Speaker 00

  And I want to, want to put like another point to it, which is,

• 1:53:51Speaker 00

  we talked about the inherent goodness side and I was like, oh, when you feel like that inherent goodness is there, when you have that like deep seated like, oh, I have, I am inherently good. That I have that trust in myself, that that thing that I'm doing, that the world might be like, really? You need a Tesla or whatever the hell it is, right? You're like, I know I'm inherently good. So I know that this desire is good in some way. Maybe it's misconstrued. Maybe there's something I need to learn from it, but I, I, I trust that this anger that is coming up for me is actually good, or this frustration about the film thing is actually good, or like as those, those like little moments of what

• 1:54:32Speaker 00

  you judge yourself for, and judging yourself is also a way not to feel a feeling, as you judge yourself for it, less and less and less, then that alignment happens in your business will. The ambition will grow and it's, and it feels less like a responsibility.

• 1:54:53Speaker 00

  It feels less like being there for people and it feels more like you're a kid with a lot of Legos.

• 1:54:58André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:59Speaker 00

  And you're just like, can I, oh, can I, can I make it even bigger? This is so cool.

• 1:55:02André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:03Speaker 00

  That's how, that's the internal experience of it.

• 1:55:05André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:06Speaker 00

  And a deep act of devotion. There, you're not thinking about it in a personal way so much anymore. There's just like a deep act of like, this business is my devotion.

• 1:55:16André Duqum?

  Yeah. Yeah, those are all great things, man. Is there any question you would ask me either now or to sit with in hindsight of all of those reflections?

• 1:55:26Speaker 00

  The question I would have asked was a second ago when I said that last piece about it feels more like Legos and you went like this.

• 1:55:34André Duqum?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:55:34Speaker 00

  Your lower lip. And I would say, what was the thought behind the lip would be the question I would ask. Or the feeling behind the lip.

• 1:55:41André Duqum?

  Oh, I honestly didn't clock it. Would probably have to watch it back. Just a weird knack, maybe, but could be tied to something deeper. But I thought, I actually think I chuckled at that, like it's a, it's a, it's a cool thought. You know, to be able to experience the world and the building of what you're passionate about as a fun adventurous play.

• 1:56:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:56:03André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:04Speaker 00

  Yeah. So excitement, maybe?

• 1:56:05André Duqum?

  Yeah, yeah, I know. I just like the, the joy of the play of building Legos in the world.

• 1:56:12Speaker 00

  Yeah. And then that, that would be like, that would, where I would say is that's where your, that's where your juice is going to be.

• 1:56:19André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:20Speaker 00

  Meaning, I'm going to do this thing. How do I enjoy it as much as possible? Whatever it is, like that's probably where your juice is going to be. It's not going to be from calculating or strategizing as much as like, how do I just have the most fun doing this podcast? Or the most fun shooting this commercial or the most fun?

• 1:56:40André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:41Speaker 00

  That's probably where you're like, where the expansion is going to come from.

• 1:56:44André Duqum?

  Yeah. No, I've certainly felt slipped into the more like obligatory energy versus, I think Alan Watts's quote is saying like the, the secret is to devote yourself entirely to your work and realize, instead of calling it work, realize it's play. You know, or something along those lines. So I think, yeah, that's, there's, there's growth there and to be my.

• 1:57:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:57:08André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:08Speaker 00

  It'll grow your business too.

• 1:57:10André Duqum?

  Yeah, I could only imagine.

• 1:57:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:57:12André Duqum?

  Sweet, man.

• 1:57:13Speaker 00

  Pleasure.

• 1:57:14André Duqum?

  Thanks for those reflections.

• 1:57:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, of course. Thanks for asking.

• 1:57:17André Duqum?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:57:18Speaker 00

  I appreciate the vulnerability.

• 1:57:21André Duqum?

  Yeah. No, it's great to have impromptu coaching sessions on my podcast. A little sneak that one in there.

• 1:57:27Speaker 00

  Not a coaching session, but.

• 1:57:28André Duqum?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay.

• 1:57:31André Duqum?

  Yeah, man, I mean, I deeply, I deeply

• 1:57:35André Duqum?

  want to and continue to strive to show up without pretense, show like, not show vulnerability, but actually be vulnerable in the moments that call for it. I think absolutely, both in business and in media, people resonate with that energy the most, that they can see themselves in that. And over the past five years, I've definitely made a lot of progress in that, but there's been, yeah, there's been many moments in the past where maybe that posturing or desire for perfectionism, even when you mentioned earlier, and wakening your enlightenment is born for perfectionism or perfectionist.

• 1:58:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:58:12André Duqum?

  Yeah, like, I deeply resonate with that.

• 1:58:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, me too.

• 1:58:18André Duqum?

  And it's been helpful for me to examine the places in where my actions are being motivated by, in subtle ways even, the appearance of them versus just the natural expression of them.

• 1:58:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:58:32André Duqum?

  And I think I can see that through the arc of the podcast, the development of the studio, the maturation of myself. There's this arc towards just embracing the fullness of experience. And that's why I love talking to you so much, because you really help people with this, and you, it's been a big theme in your own personal journey. As you vulnerably shared in the beginning. And it's exciting for me now. I feel like there was, there was a lot more resistance earlier on to face that, because there was like, I don't know, maybe assumptions or, or fear of annihilation to some degree of feeling those things.

• 1:59:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:59:11André Duqum?

  But now I'm just excited to see what becomes available on the other side and

• 1:59:16André Duqum?

  I'm not in a relationship, I don't have kids.

• 1:59:20André Duqum?

  Part of me is also seeking out the, the, the, the thing that ignites those, the ability to feel that.

• 1:59:31André Duqum?

  And increasingly, I have been in just like movies or things that I watch or really conversations. But I do live a pretty quiet, quiet solitude up here in the mountains where I don't like, I don't have to leave really much.

• 1:59:46André Duqum?

  So we'll see what comes of it.

• 1:59:49Speaker 00

  Yeah. Keep me informed.

• 1:59:51André Duqum?

  Yeah, of course I will. I'm going to get a call from me at 3 a.m. one day. Brother Joe.

• 1:59:55Speaker 00

  It has happened before.

• 1:59:56André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:58Speaker 00

  So, yeah, recently, uh, we do this week long course called Groundbreakers, which is not available to everybody, but, um, but yeah, we had a couple people go through that. Almost every time now someone goes through that and I get that phone call.

• 2:00:15André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:15Speaker 00

  Of like, what do I do with all this energy? It can, it's amazing, the transformation that can happen.

• 2:00:22André Duqum?

  Yeah. Yeah, I guess to wrap a bow on that, I think that the more I became aware of this, the more I also saw it around me. Like when I say maybe even judging virtue signaling, I'm aware of the parts of myself that have done that signaling, especially with spirituality, whether it's with language, wardrobe, business, whatever.

• 2:00:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:00:43André Duqum?

  There's this, I saw, I heard somebody say, there's this point of spirituality where you start wearing normal clothes again.

• 2:00:55Speaker 00

  That reminds me of Adia, right? So Adia always had like the short collared Chinese shirt and the bald head. And, uh, last time, I think, last time I saw him, it was like longer curly hair on a unicycle, flying, uh, flying a kite.

• 2:01:17André Duqum?

  No, it's good, man. I actually had this thing with my, with my men's group, actually like two years ago, I was in Brazil. We were staying at this property that had this like vacant church on the land. And I don't, it's just one of those moments where you feel like an energy kind of comes over you. I like went in the church alone. I took off all my clothes and I just laid on the ground.

• 2:01:37Speaker 00

  Nice.

• 2:01:37André Duqum?

  And there was this, there was this like really like intimacy with God that I can't put into words. And the more that I speak about it, the further it probably would take me away from it.

• 2:01:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:01:46André Duqum?

  But it was like, this thought that came to me was like, I'm tired of being spiritual.

• 2:01:54André Duqum?

  And it's really being tired of the part of me that would in any way uphold the identity of being somebody who's spiritual. Like that's exhausting and it has been.

• 2:02:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:02:04André Duqum?

  And

• 2:02:05Speaker 00

  It also says that there's something that's not.

• 2:02:10Speaker 00

  Yeah. Like I haven't, I haven't run across anything that isn't holy.

• 2:02:15André Duqum?

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 2:02:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:02:21Speaker 00

  So like to have to uphold it assumes that it's not

• 2:02:23André Duqum?

  Right.

• 2:02:24Speaker 00

  the nature.

• 2:02:25André Duqum?

  Totally. Yeah.

• 2:02:29André Duqum?

  So I think that was, yeah, that was one of the big first kind of cracks into that realization.

• 2:02:35Speaker 00

  That's a beautiful one.

• 2:02:36André Duqum?

  Of even like so many of the behaviors that others and like I have done in the past

• 2:02:44André Duqum?

  in some way that we deeply know, but would it maybe admit to ourselves are really

• 2:02:51André Duqum?

  a, a subtle yearning for love, like asking for love in some way.

• 2:02:58Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 2:03:00André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, totally.

• 2:03:02André Duqum?

  Like, love me, look, I'm good, I'm right, I'm holy, um, um, got it together, whatever. And, you know, could do a psychoanalysis award that originated from and all the stuff. But also just to like breathe some love into that space and, and, you know.

• 2:03:20Speaker 00

  But then what happens when someone's actually across from you and loving you just as you are?

• 2:03:32Speaker 00

  Doesn't need you to be any different?

• 2:03:33André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:47Speaker 00

  Yeah. We all want to be so seen.

• 2:03:56Speaker 00

  The coolest thing is that I experience is like when I see you fully like that, it resolves my own desire to be seen.

• 2:04:08Speaker 00

  Because in that moment, I am seeing me. Like.

• 2:04:21André Duqum?

  That's beautiful. Yeah, man.

• 2:04:26André Duqum?

  We all want to be seen.

• 2:04:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:04:28André Duqum?

  Yeah, it's good to admit that to ourselves.

• 2:04:34André Duqum?

  Man.

• 2:04:37André Duqum?

  Who knew? I did not know where this podcast was gonna go. Yeah. But. Yeah, no, I feel that, man. And I feel very grateful to have people like yourself in my life who can see me. You know? And that are willing to be seen by me. And.

• 2:04:58André Duqum?

  Yeah, no, it's just like a really.

• 2:05:02André Duqum?

  It hits home different energetically also and makes me also just want to make sure that people who have brought me in my life are seeing, they're heard, they're felt. And I think that just dissolves so much.

• 2:05:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:05:19Speaker 00

  Cool.

• 2:05:21André Duqum?

  Thank you, bro.

• 2:05:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:05:22André Duqum?

  Yeah, I don't even know where to go from here. This is it.

• 2:05:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, that was it.

• 2:05:28André Duqum?

  We have hit the crescendo.

• 2:05:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's it.

• 2:05:29André Duqum?

  The climax has occurred. There's a, there's a tiny tear forming in my right eye and we'll cut it here.

• 2:05:39Speaker 00

  Let's check the shot and make sure it's perfect.

• 2:05:40André Duqum?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Looking good? All right, sick.

• 2:05:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:05:47André Duqum?

  Awesome. Thank you, man. Well, I appreciate you so much and just your heart and how much you care. It shines through.

• 2:05:55Speaker 00

  Thanks.

• 2:05:56André Duqum?

  Everybody who wants to stay connected with Joe and his work, we'll leave links down where you can find him.

• 2:06:01Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 2:06:01André Duqum?

  And that's it, man.

• 2:06:02Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 2:06:04André Duqum?

  Let's hug it out.

• 2:06:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.