E187 - Shi Heng Yi: Shaolin Master’s Guide to Self-Mastery & Inner Stability

Shi Heng Yi joins me to explore the path of self-mastery through the lens of the Shaolin tradition, and why, despite having more comfort and convenience than ever before, so many people still feel a deep sense of inner lack. We unpack the idea that external success, wealth, and achievement cannot replace a missing sense of inner stability, and how the constant search outside of ourselves often leads us further away from what we are truly looking for. In this conversation, we explore the relationship between mind, body, and energy, and why true mastery begins with learning how to regulate and understand oneself rather than trying to control the external world. Shi Heng Yi shares how thoughts shape reality, why discipline and consistency are essential for growth, and what it means to become “transparent” by letting go of identity and the need to be someone. This episode is an invitation to shift from reacting to life toward consciously creating it from within. Oneskin - Use code KNOW THYSELF for 15% off http://oneskin.co/KNOWTHYSELF Limited time only! MUDWTR - Up to 43% off sitewide (and a free frother!) https://www.mudwtr.com/knowthyself [Code: KNOWTHYSELF] André's Book Recs: https://www.knowthyselfpodcast.com/book-list ___________ 0:00 Intro 1:11 The Root of Suffering: Becoming Someone 1:50 Why Comfort Doesn’t Create Peace 4:56 The Inner Void Beneath External Success 9:16 The Path of Self-Mastery 16:04 Mastering the Mind, Not the World 21:07 Where Attention Goes, Energy Flows 27:21 Ad: OneSkin 28:43 The Essence of the Shaolin Spirit 36:29 Living with Intention and Integrity 44:14 Service Beyond the Self 46:34 The Freedom of Being No One 57:14 Ad: Mud/Wtr 58:56 Trust, Discipline, and the Inner Path 1:05:24 Strength Without Suppression 1:10:20 The Middle Way of Emotion 1:13:11 Structure as the Gateway to Freedom 1:19:00 Returning to the Body 1:35:36 The Body as a Tool for Awareness 1:42:32 Breath as the Bridge to Presence 1:46:38 Seeing Clearly: The End of Suffering 1:54:31 From Endless Seeking to Direct Experience 1:59:27 The Mind’s Five Obstacles 2:08:07 Turning Awareness Inward 2:11:20 Beyond the Illusion of Separation 2:14:25 Nothing to Gain, Nothing to Lose 2:15:30 Closing Thoughts ___________ Episode Resources: https://www.shihengyi.online/ https://www.instagram.com/shihengyi.online https://www.instagram.com/andreduqum/ https://www.instagram.com/knowthyself/ https://www.youtube.com/@knowthyselfpodcast https://www.knowthyselfpodcast.com

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  The reason why we suffer throughout this lifetime is because we want to be someone. I had parents that came as refugees from Vietnam, running away from war with the idea of finding safety in a foreign country. Do your education, get a proper job, earn some proper money. That was the idea of my parents. Nevertheless, with the age of four, I got acquainted with the practice of the martial arts. I can do all of these things. I'm a high achiever, but this one? Never satisfied. Yes, on the outside, it looks great. There, it doesn't look great at all. No matter how I felt, there was literally nobody I could somehow share with.

• 0:43Speaker 00

  So I just kept it for myself. Everything I started building up started to crumble. Then I was sitting there and asking, and then what? I stopped my traveling. I stopped social media and literally was just sitting with myself. Truth can never be spoken. Empty yourself. Then the universe speaks to you.

• 1:11André Duqum?

  Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the Know thyself Podcast. Our guest today is a 35th generation Shaolin master and founder and headmaster of the Shaolin Temple Europe. He has been steeped in a practice for over 1,500 years, known as the Shaolin Way. And he has been sharing practices through his talks, his books, his teachings about connecting the mind and the body. Xieheng, thank you so much for being here today.

• 1:38Speaker 00

  Andre, thank you very much for the invitation. Let's see where this is gonna go now.

• 1:46André Duqum?

  Let's see. The mystery is ahead of us. Where I'd like to start is that it feels like we live in a time with more external comforts than ever before. And yet, it seems like we're more internally uncomfortable than ever before. Why do you think that is?

• 2:06Speaker 00

  I can't right now tell you why, but let's start with some very, very obvious observations that we have. I mean, while we are having this talk right now, I mean, on some parts of the world, you know, the media is like broadcasting it all over. We have wars going on, we have missiles and bombs falling down. But interestingly also, and this is maybe where many people at the moment feel something is just about to shift, or there is a shift going on. And just by looking, what is this type of shift? I mean, we see, for example, let's just take it, yeah, Dubai.

• 2:53Speaker 00

  What was it known for? What type of people go there? What was your view upon going into such a country?

• 3:02Speaker 00

  If you have your financial means, there is nothing that you cannot get in Dubai, right? But right now, in these circumstances, the last thing you're thinking about is spending your money in any type of luxury. Let's put it like this. And why is that? Because very clearly, this life right now is showing you that there's one essential point

• 3:31Speaker 00

  missing. And if that is not there, it really doesn't matter anymore what you are aiming at, which is safety.

• 3:42Speaker 00

  The current situation, whatever it is, it is just displaying to you very clearly, once safety is gone,

• 3:52Speaker 00

  you have way other problems and things to deal with than figuring out where to spend your money in. And so it comes ultimately also to this point of safety. What is it that makes you feel safe? What takes your safety away?

• 4:11Speaker 00

  And already being with this term of safety. Now, sometimes I also saw some of your podcasts already. It is the title of your series of your podcast, Know Thyself. Meaning, who is it ultimately? That either misses the safety or that feels the safety? And to make it like really quick and then we can afterwards talk about it a long time.

• 4:43Speaker 00

  Identifying yourself with this, walking through this lifetime, you'll always be afraid of losing this one.

• 4:54Speaker 00

  That's the starting point.

• 4:57André Duqum?

  So let's keep diving in.

• 5:00André Duqum?

  You would think that through the times of modernity, the more technology, the more access to food at our doorstep, the more affluence would correlate to increase in well-being. And yet we see the loneliness epidemic, we see anxiety through the roof, teenage suicide. All of these markers indicate an internal poverty, so to speak, amidst an external abundance. And I think when you're referring to exploring what is it and who do we identify with? It's getting to the heart of the matter.

• 5:40André Duqum?

  And so I'd love to just keep on diving a little bit deeper here with you.

• 5:45Speaker 00

  You said it already. There's never been a time where

• 5:53Speaker 00

  you seemingly

• 5:56Speaker 00

  could spend so much of your time being in comfort also based on what nowadays we have available.

• 6:06Speaker 00

  Nevertheless.

• 6:09Speaker 00

  Wie sieht es auf der Innenseite aus, wenn wir jetzt diese Unterscheidung machen? Wie sieht es auf der Außenseite aus? Wie fühlen die Menschen auf der Innenseite? Offensichtlich gibt es eine Art, mehr Komfort zu geben, mehr Technologie, mehr Möglichkeiten auf der Außenseite. Es scheint nicht zu sein, dass etwas aufzubereiten, das innerlich immer mehr wie verloren zu fühlen scheint. Oder alle diese Außensehungen füllen nicht einmal das Leid, das Leid, das offensichtlich, wenn man sich an einem Punkt sensibel fühlt, erkennt, dass es mehr wichtige Dinge gibt, um mich zu haben,

• 6:51Speaker 00

  dieses Gefühl der Wachstum und der Lebens- und der Gefühl der Füllung, der Dank dafür zu haben, auf dieser Erde zu leben. Also, Nummer eins ist die Art, die vielleicht viele Menschen heute ansehen, die Art, finanzielle Ressourcen zu bauen oder in generell. Es gibt immer etwas mehr zu erreichen. Ich meine, es ist so gegangen, fast wie vor, aber gleichzeitig scheint es nicht zu verbessern. Und dann auf der anderen Seite haben wir immer mehr spirituelle Dinge der modernen Zeit.

• 7:35Speaker 00

  Wir haben immer mehr Menschen, offensichtlich, zurückgehen zu den alten Lehren, dass es etwas geheim sein muss, dass es bereits die Antwort gibt. Und, vielleicht ja. Und das ist, wo diese ganze Idee kommt, dass du die Antwort auf der Außenseite nicht findest.

• 8:00Speaker 00

  And continuously start running, searching for something in the hope that it's gonna bring you the fulfillment, that you are eventually wanting to feel it. Apparently, this approach right now is not working. And therefore, I appreciate very much also the possibility of these podcasts like yours, where just different perspectives are being shown. And especially also throughout all the different guests that you're having. So the bottom line is also to make it clear. There is a nice, nice image, which is on the top of the mountain.

• 8:44Speaker 00

  There you're gonna get the clarity. But there is not one way to get there. Yeah. In a way, this idea of there is something to climb here, but there is not one path that moves up there. Therefore, which teacher is right? Which tradition is right? The one that at some point maybe resonates with you? And that you also start walking from beginning until end? And, uh, yes.

• 10:15André Duqum?

  So it seems like so much of your work is aimed at exploring the paths to self mastery. And people that are listening to this podcast have various different traditions and lineages and ways in which they've turned inwards essentially. How would you define self mastery and the uniqueness of the Shalhoun Path as a distinct way up the mountain, so to speak?

• 10:42Speaker 00

  Okay. So maybe I have to jump a little bit back into the past in order to build a little bit this framework. This framework, why do I think is important?

• 10:56Speaker 00

  If somebody would see this podcast like right now and looks at me. So I do assume there is a lot of projection, okay? He's Asian dressed, he has a shaved head, yeah? He talks about all this spirituality and about knowing yourself. So apparently, he has never worked outside in the world with the normal problems that we all have. That's why he can be somewhere at his temple or hide inside the mountains or in the forest in order to reflect upon life.

• 11:31Speaker 00

  Well, first of all, that is a projection. It is not what I am. And therefore, jumping back a little bit, my journey started like the journey of many other people as well, meaning I had parents that came as refugees from Vietnam to Europe because in Vietnam, they were running away from the regime and of the consequences of war that time with the idea of finding safety and stability in a foreign country. So now already it's like important to acknowledge. So you have two human beings, my father and my mother, running away from their home country

• 12:14Speaker 00

  in order to look for safety in a foreign country. So this idea of safety was very, very deep embedded into the mindset of my parents. Therefore, their focus in educating me and my brother was based upon, no matter what you do, first of all, the important part is... Do your education, go to school, qualify yourself, get a proper job, earn some proper money, and this financial wealth is going to give you some stability. So that was the idea of my parents. Therefore, I went the whole academic system

• 12:56Speaker 00

  until I studied two times also, for the sake of my parents. Nevertheless, with the age of four, simultaneously, I got acquainted for the first time in my life with what is known nowadays as Shaolin Kung Fu, so meaning the practice of the martial arts. So, growing up now, as a boy, as a child, as a teenager, growing up, I always had like two areas in my life: academic education, and then also training myself, training the body, training the martial arts.

• 13:33Speaker 00

  And already having like all the stress and all the pressure of you need to deliver good grades, you need to be good at school, yeah. Of course, it puts me under pressure. And so sometimes this pressure, I just felt very, very naturally,

• 13:51Speaker 00

  I was looking forward, going into the training and releasing some of the energy that just like starts to build up during normal life. And now, a little bigger jump, after finishing my studies now, when the time has come where I had to actually decide what am I gonna do for my living, let's say.

• 14:13Speaker 00

  I was just thinking, okay, what is it that I can do the best? What is it that I feel like this world needs and that I can in a way provide? And more than having the knowledge from the school and then studying, more than this type of knowledge, was actually the knowledge and the experience that I had in the field of martial arts. And also meaning to actually know how to train, regulate, adjust myself, and just have some good knowledge about myself.

• 14:55Speaker 00

  And this all was happening now in Germany, in Europe. Meaning, I grew up seeing how the, how the, the market, how the business world is developing. What is it that is concerning for the people? And more and more, that was the time where burnout was such a big topic. And I just felt like, hmm, okay.

• 15:20Speaker 00

  If the people would just know about the possibilities of using your body, literally as a medicine, in order to take some effect on the psyche, on the mental states, they would probably be less stressed and would be able to deal better with their life, whatever they are doing. So, and this was the starting point where I started founding the Shaolin Temple Europe with the idea of just spreading simple, simple practices. You don't need to be a martial artist, you don't need to go into a temple. You can just do some basic exercises to get more movement into your daily life.

• 16:04Speaker 00

  That is what actually kicked off everything. And then now, jumping more far, together with the, with the COVID times, with all the restrictions, everybody was at home, you were not allowed to travel anywhere. So this is then suddenly where all the online teachings and what I was sharing five, six years prior to that, started to somehow being spread in the world. And then everything just went its course, yeah? And meanwhile, and meanwhile, it's mostly like this, that when I'm invited somewhere, that primarily I start sharing something by words,

• 16:48Speaker 00

  but actually the field of where I was coming from was simply the field of martial arts.

• 16:55André Duqum?

  If stress management seems to be the doorway into a lot of different modalities and potentially Shaolin or martial arts practices, what later down the line, decades down the line, is the core and the essence of, of really what the goal of the practice is?

• 17:18Speaker 00

  Conceptually, I understood very, very early. There is no way in trying to change the ideas of my parents. There is no way in even trying to invest my energy and trying to figure out what people in my surrounding are expecting from me or having ideas, what am I supposed to do with my life?

• 17:44Speaker 00

  In that, in that field of stress management, I also realized very, very quickly, people getting stressed by the phone calls they receive, people getting stressed by the emails they receive. And so I just felt like all the time.

• 18:01Speaker 00

  So I wake up in the morning, have a very great day.

• 18:06Speaker 00

  Then I just look at that phone. I just open like my, my, my laptop, read something, and suddenly my life quality, my great day is gone.

• 18:19Speaker 00

  And I just felt like,

• 18:22Speaker 00

  that that just doesn't make sense. This is not the way of how I imagine to live my life, being so dependent upon what type of, um, impulses I am exposed to. Like meaning, whatever is happening there on the outside, I don't wanna be so much influenced that all these things can take away my well-being eventually. And so that means, very clearly, I cannot rely my own well-being, the way of how I feel, based on what is happening on the outside.

• 19:05Speaker 00

  First of all, I can't fix it. So, very rationally thinking, there was only one solution.

• 19:16Speaker 00

  It has something to do about me. I need to somehow find the key to regulate myself, to be able and learn to cope with everything that this world is throwing at me. And so, there I understood for myself that there is a similarity between the physical and martial art training. It's like if I'm placing on my mind, "Okay, I wanna like do some proper push-ups. My aim is to do 200 push-ups." Nobody's gonna help you.

• 19:56Speaker 00

  It is you, yourself, who needs to go through the pain, who needs to go through the training, who is the one who needs to motivate yourself, find your own purpose and why am I doing this? There is nobody else out there helping you to achieve what you are setting on the mind.

• 20:17Speaker 00

  And just similar like this development of your physical form, I felt, okay.

• 20:25Speaker 00

  It is also the mental qualities. It is also the mind capabilities that I felt like they also need to be properly trained and developed. And this is the similarity that until today, I'm trying to share with the people where many times you heard also maybe the term "discipline". Every proper martial artist has for sure that amount of discipline, being able to push through the difficult times because we know first it's difficult, then it becomes easy. And same also sometimes for the mind.

• 21:09Speaker 00

  It is in the beginning difficult to stay away and tame yourself from temptations, but on the long run, it's gonna be good for you.

• 21:19Speaker 00

  And this is like what I like to view this whole path in. And why eventually, what I tried to like, in the way of how I tried to name it was self mastery. Don't need to look for a master, a teacher outside of you. You have the key. It's literally like we all have our own master sitting inside of us. He just needs to be cultivated. We just need to nourish him. Give him the proper thoughts. Give him the proper energy. Give him the proper training. Then that master comes out. Yes. And that means taking your life in your own hands again.

• 22:04Speaker 00

  Stop relying too much on the outside. This is your life. That's why you need to be responsible for it. That is the whole idea behind it.

• 22:15André Duqum?

  It feels like so much of the path is this progression from unconsciousness to consciousness, from compulsivity and reactiveness to responding to choice. And if we're to have any shot at, so to speak, unlocking the master within us, there is this saying or phrase about Qi follows Yi that I would love for you to speak to because it seems like right now we're giving our energy, our life, our attention to so many things externally and not giving self the opportunity it has to be examined, to inquire about it and to grow awareness in it.

• 22:59André Duqum?

  And so what does that mean?

• 23:03Speaker 00

  So in the field of martial arts, especially when it comes to the field of so-called, nowadays so-called internal martial arts, which means you are having different methods, you have different practices that are aiming in cultivating something very, I would call it refined about yourself. So refined that sometimes we call it even you're at the level of Qi, so sensing the bioelectricity of your body.

• 23:36Speaker 00

  And this bioelectricity, or the energies of the body, it is said, "Q follows E." E in that, in that sense, meaning attention or intention. Attention, intention, meaning thought. Energy follows your thoughts. Now, just keep that in mind, and we make a little jump into some Buddhist teachings that also has a very nice line up. It says, "Watch your thoughts, because they will become your words. Watch your words, because they will become your action. Watch your actions, because they will become your behavior.

• 24:20Speaker 00

  Watch your behavior, because they will become your habits. Watch your habits, because it will become your character. Watch the character, because it will become your destiny." Putting now, that long chain of what I just said, together with the idea of "energy follows intention", there is some similarity. If something in this world you want to create, creation needs energy. So ultimately, where does this energy come from? It comes ultimately from thought.

• 24:58Speaker 00

  So now, we have to ask ourselves, first of all, are you at all times aware of what are you thinking?

• 25:10Speaker 00

  This is number one. This is where in all the traditional ancient teachings, you have the practices that are aiming in finding a space or being in a space where you can literally see your own thoughts. And that means it's already one step ahead of what is happening nowadays in the world. What is happening is, you think, and that's why, what you are thinking, you think that's you. So you think you are your thoughts. A thought is popping up, "Ah, so that's what I'm supposed to do", blindly following the thought.

• 25:53Speaker 00

  Now, the problem with this is...

• 25:59Speaker 00

  That you have no power. What type of thought is popping up?

• 26:09Speaker 00

  It is an everlasting experiment in trying to trying to figure out what is going to be the next thought that is going to pop up now in 10 seconds. You can't predict what type of thought is coming up. And therefore, in the ancient teachings, there is one, let's call it one method, which is says like this: Number one, distance yourself from the idea that you are your thoughts. This is where it comes from: You are not your thoughts. Even if right now, for many people, it might be a concept, I'm not talking about concept, but you can still use it. You are not your thoughts.

• 26:52Speaker 00

  In the moment, you are able to tap into this reality.

• 27:01Speaker 00

  Then you can let thoughts come, and at the same time, you can see thoughts go. That means you are at the space that at all times is just unmoving. Now, thoughts, energy, creation. This taking it back also meaning,

• 27:20Speaker 00

  on whichever thought you are getting hooked on, this is what you create.

• 27:29Speaker 00

  And this is why, to be aware and conscious, whether you are willingly by your own, how I say, if you're consciously choosing a thought, or if you are by habit being hooked by a thought, is a big difference. And this is how it then ultimately translates into. Why is it that some people, let's say, get things done in a proper way, and other people, let's say, try and try and try, but somehow seem to get lost?

• 28:11Speaker 00

  It's exactly because you cannot trust all thoughts that come every day into your mind, because it's not your choice.

• 28:22André Duqum?

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• 29:44André Duqum?

  I'm curious your thoughts on, like, I think the more that you gain awareness of that, the more painful it becomes to not be living from that place, because you refer to this distinction between choosing your thoughts, or in essence, your thoughts choosing you. It's like a regurgitation of past conditioning and stimulus from our parents and society that keeps on living its own self, instead of me living my own free life to choose the path I want to go on. And I think the more that you become aware...

• 30:19André Duqum?

  Of that, it becomes, I definitely have at different parts of my journey, like become sort of indignated about that realization. And a bit rebellious to the unconscious parts of me. And I think that's so much seen in the Shaolin spirit as well. You referred earlier how you very much so use the body to free the mind and the interplay between the two. And I think it's, the body is, in some circles, puts so much emphasis on in terms of, in the health and wellness space, but not really understanding how energy, body and mind are all connected and interplaying at a deep level.

• 31:01André Duqum?

  So thoughts you have on the Shaolin way and spirit?

• 31:07Speaker 00

  So one reason why

• 31:12Speaker 00

  this expression of Shaolin spirit in the first place somehow was spread into the world was simply like this. Spirit, why is it called spirit? Because it doesn't have a form. It doesn't have a form. So meaning also, how can I demonstrate to you a Shaolin spirit? What does a Shaolin spirit exactly? What is it exactly? I can't tell you. Meaning it is something formless.

• 31:46Speaker 00

  You might now say, or what I would like to emphasize is, it is more like a quality. It is like something that is guiding you, no matter what you are doing. It's not about the what, it's about the how. As long as the how is being maintained, no matter what you do, it always follows the same type of spirit. So, and what is one essential, essential point of this Shaolin spirit? For example, it is, there are, there is more to this life than what meets the eye.

• 32:30Speaker 00

  That is where it already starts with. So meaning, if you are living this life right now and only believe in what you see, I would say, okay, that might not be exactly.

• 32:43Speaker 00

  What I would have wished for for you to understand about the Shaolin spirit. So number one is the openness of mind. There is more to this existence than what we see in the world. So then, of course, because Shaolin is so close connected to the martial art field. Another quality therefore is also. This life is not here to give you pleasantness at all times. You're not being born into this world and just like walk through this lifetime like it would be Disneyland. This is not happening.

• 33:26Speaker 00

  What you are facing, what every human being at some level is facing is difficulties. So difficulties in the field of Shaolin martial arts, nothing new. No difficulties, no growth. So what is like the how again about this approach? It is to really embedding and trying to integrate it into your life. There will come hard times. I won't give up. But because I keep this consistency and I keep this trust. Something about me starts to elevate. Something about me starts to grow.

• 34:11Speaker 00

  I'm starting to transform. But by accepting that pain and suffering to some extent is part of this existence. Yeah, that already removes the idea of what nowadays, let's say, is I just felt like is is propagated. That it's a one directional, it's a one direction street. Where it's about better, higher, more beautiful, good, health, growth. Yeah, that is one part of the truth. What about the second one? And there I simply feel like.

• 34:58Speaker 00

  It is... You're creating your fantasy in your mind, how this life is supposed to be. Then you're being faced with the reality of how life on earth right now really is. And then you're wondering why you're having such a difficult time. It's because you focus all the time on fifty percent of the truth. You had a preference. You had a preference for the gentle, nice, and pleasant things.

• 35:28Speaker 00

  So, and one area of Shaolin spirit, like I said, is again,

• 35:34Speaker 00

  we need both.

• 35:37Speaker 00

  It's not just that we need both. We are going to face both. That's where you also... No, it's not just the Shaolin spirit. The Taoists way before that, they have the yin and yang symbol, right? And even other religions, other cultures, they have the devil and the angel. Or the demon and the Buddha.

• 36:05Speaker 00

  Two sides of the same coin. So how do you translate this? Two sides of the same coin. Yes, this is you. It's the same of what's happening nowadays also in the world. Where to the public, you show the glorious and shiny side of you. What about the other side?

• 36:28Speaker 00

  And it is existing.

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• 37:29André Duqum?

  From the outside in, people might see from the more commercial perspective of the Shaolin warriors or exuding extreme self mastery over their physical body, which is one side of things. But you've alluded to throughout and you do through your book and your talks about it not being just what we do, but the consciousness in which what we do and who we are being while we do what we do in the world. And I think this kind of gets to the heart of Buddha and the cultivation of the virtues. Because when you see that everything is infused with the consciousness in which we do it, then we do turn that gaze inward and examine the motivations and the intentions behind

• 38:13André Duqum?

  our actions. We live in a world that is very much so externally outward perceiving from social media and the society lens. We're very programmed to think of the appearance of a thing and not as much the essence of a thing. And so as we examine those two sides of the same coin within us and we desire to imbibe more of those virtues which are going to benefit self and others more consistently, I would just love for you to set the stage of what those virtues are. Give us like a roadmap of what are those qualities that we can continue to develop?

• 38:53Speaker 00

  Okay. Prior to that, I think there's something also like worth mentioning.

• 39:03Speaker 00

  So my journey, I would say like this, started with the physical, the physical training of the Shaolin practices.

• 39:14Speaker 00

  At some point in my teenage years, why I stayed with this type of practice was very clearly that even for me, it was so interesting actually to, to understand, ah, okay, there is that development of skill in the physical area, but it's happening traditionally from a temple. All of this being developed in a temple, therefore Shaolin temple. So it was not just about right now becoming skillful with the body. My question was,

• 39:49Speaker 00

  what does it has to do with that temple area? With that temple, uh, name inside of there? So and after some research, you all, you will just know that it is a Shaolin temple, meaning there is the Buddhist teaching or more precisely what nowadays is known as Zen. It's the foundation of everything that this temple is bringing out into the world. This is how it's supposed to be. Now,

• 40:25Speaker 00

  when I realized this, which was in my twenties, and I went on Google and put in Shaolin, what I witnessed for myself was, okay, it's physical abilities, its performance, its demonstration, its show, its fighting. Where's the Zen part? Where's the Zen part? And I for myself that time didn't find it.

• 40:51Speaker 00

  I also didn't find teachers at that time that could... In an understanding way for me, tell me what is the Zen aspect of it. So therefore, I started to somehow shape my own past, figuring out what does all this physicality has to do with Zen, with the core, what it is supposed to be. So and meanwhile, after spending thirty-six years along this way and walking through everything that I walked through, also meaning like, yeah, it's not that I only have friends in this world, let's put it like this, yeah?

• 41:36Speaker 00

  But I just cannot,

• 41:43Speaker 00

  I don't like so much to support anymore this idea of

• 41:49Speaker 00

  showing Shaolin only in the way of physicality.

• 41:54Speaker 00

  Because I'm feeling that by doing so, so much of real value is being taken away from what people associate nowadays with Shaolin. Because it's never gonna happen that eight billion people in this world are going to practice Shaolin martial arts.

• 42:17Speaker 00

  Because maybe based on the way of how they live their life, based on what type of obligations they have. But there is one thing that eight billion people have in common.

• 42:30Speaker 00

  And it is this one thing that the Zen aspect is dealing with. This is why I feel like this is way more important meanwhile, regarding everything that is going on, than sharing with somebody how to inhale, how to exhale, how to make a punch, how to make a kick, how to move a form. Yeah?

• 42:56Speaker 00

  And my master simply just tells me, "What would you do if tomorrow you cannot move anymore? What did all the training of the martial art help you? If from tomorrow on, you're not able to move anymore? Body you cannot use? So where's the helping benefit? Well, there can only be one if you have practiced or understood something. That it all comes from mind. That the key to answer a lot of things in this world is by understanding more about... You know it, you had so many guests here. It always comes down to the same.

• 43:41Speaker 00

  This one. Who am I? What am I? This is the essence. So, also meaning right now because you ask about the virtues along the way of know thyself, along the way of figuring out what you are. There's one important part along this way. There is no standard to it. As soon as we set a standard, having a conceptual idea how something is supposed to be, it's not. Yeah, and therefore, why I mention this?

• 44:25Speaker 00

  These virtues that are also mentioned like in these books and that you also find like freely, freely already on the web. You can take them, of course, as a guideline. But at some point, even fourteen virtues have nothing to do with this one. This is the essential point.

• 44:46André Duqum?

  It makes me think of the references you give to Star Wars and the Force, meaning you could come to know who you are, understand the energy that you are, and yet, there isn't quite a standard in how it's going to be used. You could, you know, the morality or the virtues is something that you choose to cultivate.

• 45:08Speaker 00

  But here also this picture, yeah? They both have discovered the Force. The one uses it in, how you would call it, in in a compassionate and lightful way,

• 45:25Speaker 00

  and the other one uses it in a different destructive and maybe like evil way. Still, both of them have still something in common.

• 45:36Speaker 00

  They are just fueling the Force with their thoughts.

• 45:43Speaker 00

  So it's not ultimate stage. The one does good, the other does bad.

• 45:50Speaker 00

  There is still separation in that whole idea.

• 45:54Speaker 00

  So meaning,

• 45:57Speaker 00

  no thinking,

• 46:00Speaker 00

  no thought is the way. Thought is already creating a type of container. It's already creating a type of

• 46:13Speaker 00

  a type of standard. And something's telling me, no, one step too early.

• 46:23André Duqum?

  So for those of us that can see very clearly that we have both the light and the dark within us, and we want to be more like a light walker or a Yoda

• 46:37André Duqum?

  instead of a Sith Lord or Darth Vader, yeah, walk us through the journey of examining what those virtues are and then how one could put into practice in their daily life that, and then maybe sharing your own lens where it's been difficult or how it showed up.

• 46:53Speaker 00

  A very practical one is to really...

• 47:00Speaker 00

  Look at your own actions. Whatever you are doing to whoever you are talking to, for who are you doing it? Why are you saying something? Meaning? If you are always doing things, saying things, and ultimately, the, how you call it? The, the beneficiary is yourself.

• 47:28Speaker 00

  Less of that. This is where in many traditions, the idea comes in of community work.

• 47:37Speaker 00

  Investing your own life energy in truly benefiting others.

• 47:43Speaker 00

  Not doing it in order to hear from all of them. Thank you, you made it all possible. That's again, the wrong way, yeah? But the idea of investing your lifetime and just bringing it out.

• 47:56Speaker 00

  This is one very effective way in putting into practice that whole idea of we are connected and this is not an ego trip on this earth. So therefore, to donate, to help, to do community work, and always observe yourself for who are you doing this? And I, me, should not like pop up there. This is one of these things.

• 48:28André Duqum?

  Yeah, the difference between service to self or service to others being the dominant energy or focus. I heard you say

• 48:38André Duqum?

  that there's only one way to become free, and that's to become transparent.

• 48:44Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 48:44André Duqum?

  What do you mean by that?

• 48:46Speaker 00

  The reason why we suffer and have problems throughout this lifetime is because we want to be someone.

• 48:59Speaker 00

  We want to make ourselves a name. We want to have some type of acknowledgement.

• 49:07Speaker 00

  The easy way, no, it's not the easy way. Transparent meaning,

• 49:13Speaker 00

  you're fine with being no one. You're fine with being nothing.

• 49:20Speaker 00

  And now it sounds super paradox, especially right now, being in L.A. and mentioning that one, being no one. This is not what the culture in the West is built upon. It's always built upon, do something with your lifetime, become someone. But the problem is, again,

• 49:43Speaker 00

  you are creating an avatar. You are creating a persona. You are creating a role. You are creating an identity.

• 49:55Speaker 00

  But

• 50:00Speaker 00

  whoever brought us here, whatever brought us here, I cannot believe that this power brought us here incomplete for you to figure out along the way what you need to create. Meaning, the more you try to become someone, the more unauthentic you become. Because you're moving away of what you are all the time.

• 50:28Speaker 00

  And this is why, again and again, I love it. And it's a super interesting journey.

• 50:36Speaker 00

  And this is where also in the traditional teachings, there is the illusion of the self. The illusion of the eye. The artificial creation of the self. Know thyself, which self?

• 50:52Speaker 00

  Exactly, which self? And there, this is where all these interesting things come from. Who's the doer? To who are all the thoughts coming from? From where do the thoughts come? Where do the thoughts go afterwards? Nothing and no one. That's why I do feel like transparent describes it also very much in that way. You know, I mean, we also have this expression of just go with the flow, right?

• 51:28Speaker 00

  But let's just imagine, let's just imagine right now like there is a stream, right now, like flowing through this room, there is a stream, whatever type of stream it is.

• 51:44Speaker 00

  What would it mean to go with the flow while the both of us are like sitting here?

• 51:52Speaker 00

  It means to not take our own ideas about myself right now so important that I'm getting stiff and hard of how I am. The more I want to actually really realize where is the flow, where does the flow want to take me? What you need to do is literally get transparent, release all of this.

• 52:22Speaker 00

  Dilute yourself. That would be the way of, ah, now you are being, now the flow, you just go with the flow. But the harder I am here, this is my idea, this is my life, this is what I think, this is what I want, then it just means you are surrounded by the flow all the time, but you're not being taken with the flow, you're not going with the flow. Why? Because you are resisting it, resisting it by your own mind, by your own ideas. That's why this whole idea of empty yourself.

• 53:02Speaker 00

  Then the universe speaks to you.

• 53:06André Duqum?

  I'm curious where this has shown up in your life, because I think the tendency to identify with something as self and identity of sorts is so deeply ingrained, even the idea of someone who is becoming empty or living a noble path that can become an identity in and of itself, like the ego is so slippery and elusive in that way. And I feel like the way you're referring, becoming transparent, is like there's no place within self I'm not willing to look and meet and stare into the darkness, so to speak. How has that shown up for you?

• 53:43Speaker 00

  Like probably ten years ago. Like the name Shi Heng Yi or even Shaolin Spirit wasn't so well known as it is nowadays. So along this journey, starting also with Covid.

• 53:59Speaker 00

  How I say this? Of course, it was nice at some point to say, okay, nice, like the followers are growing and some recognition and some appreciation from everyone. And so many possibilities and you're being invited here, you're being invited there.

• 54:19Speaker 00

  In the beginning, it was nice, but at some point, I also started literally really thinking, huh, okay, so meanwhile, I'm invited here. Yeah, the doors are wide open, so I could literally visualize in my head already where this whole journey might go if it would be up to to my mind. Meaning, okay, I can make more events, I can have more podcasts, I can join more television shows, I would maybe even make it easily to somehow join maybe in some movie. And then I was contemplating, okay, let's just imagine all of this is happening.

• 55:04Speaker 00

  And then I literally was sitting there and asking,

• 55:09Speaker 00

  and then what?

• 55:11Speaker 00

  Literally, and then what?

• 55:14Speaker 00

  And this was like one starting point where I literally said, okay, there's no point in really pushing more forward, like more followers, more events and whatsoever, because I already could sense and see for myself, this is not the way.

• 55:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, and then simultaneously, on the outside, I would say, different things started happening. So meaning also, I had to restructure the temple that I was building up for many, many years. Like, a lot of conflict started to happen there. I needed to interfere again. So what I literally saw in front of my eyes was that everything I started building up, in a way, started to crumble. From the inside, it started to crumble. Then, many other incidents also happened that literally put in front of my eyes, no matter what you're building up, it can be done like this, very quick.

• 56:20Speaker 00

  Also, now, I don't wanna like, make it too big, but,

• 56:26Speaker 00

  in the same way of when I was following some martial art practitioners, martial art masters, I always thought like this. So when I would follow you with all, everything that you are teaching me, and you would be, let's say, my master.

• 56:44Speaker 00

  So the best that can happen to me is that I'm actually gonna become you. I'm gonna become you if I follow all your advice exactly in the way of what you're telling me. And just like this, I also thought about all the teachers, all the masters that I had in my life, and was then asking, hmm. So if I follow this path longer, I'm gonna be this. If I follow that, I'm gonna be him. So it's all been done already. So that means my, my inner urge of like, staying with one teacher, for example, also, was not fulfilling anymore.

• 57:27Speaker 00

  And ultimately, what I then started realizing, okay, everything on the outside just started to be so,

• 57:38Speaker 00

  I don't know how to say,

• 57:41Speaker 00

  meaningless.

• 57:43Speaker 00

  Outside was very meaningless for me.

• 57:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, and then I can't tell you why, but it just happened to be like this, that despite everything that was going on on the outside, I just then had my time or took my time to just be with myself.

• 58:02Speaker 00

  Not being,

• 58:05Speaker 00

  not being distracted too much anymore about the outside. I stopped my traveling. I stopped being too much on social media and literally was just sitting with myself. And this is where slowly, slowly, slowly, some lights maybe went on. Some lights about, okay, why is this all happening on the outside?

• 58:29Speaker 00

  Yeah. It's because everything you're doing carries consequences. And the more you push something one-sidedly, on the one side, it's just a question of time until there is another type of force bringing it or bringing it in front of your eyes, that it's about balance. Balance, not one-sidedness. So, and therefore, I started consciously and willingly, actually to start and letting go, letting go of a lot of things.

• 59:07Speaker 00

  And now, sitting here and being able to tell you this, I just have to say, right way. Because it feels light.

• 59:16André Duqum?

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• 1:00:01André Duqum?

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• 1:00:44André Duqum?

  And it's interesting to examine like the parts of us that we're feeding in any given moment that are bringing us more towards that lightness, or we get identified with the success, the relative success we're having. Or I'm curious for you to like list, if you would, like what virtues come to mind as like those are the aspects of self that we want to nourish and feed. What are those? Whatever comes to mind?

• 1:01:12Speaker 00

  Trust. One of them, I would definitely say trust, or is not mentioned exactly like this in the virtues, or belief.

• 1:01:23Speaker 00

  But now belief

• 1:01:26Speaker 00

  in terms of.

• 1:01:31Speaker 00

  Not believing something because you have evidence.

• 1:01:37Speaker 00

  But before even having evidence, having something so strongly in your mind that you do not need any type of

• 1:01:49Speaker 00

  proof to still have something unbroken about you. And this one, for example, the belief or the belief that there is more to what meets the eye. That one I regard as a very, very important quality to look into.

• 1:02:14Speaker 00

  In the same way, I would say what makes yourself light is like stop comparing yourself. Stop comparing yourself to anyone and also learn to, on the one side you could call it, have respect for other beings and also learn to be happy for other people's growth.

• 1:02:39Speaker 00

  Because to be competitive,

• 1:02:43Speaker 00

  you know, how I say? Sometimes you're the winner, but sometimes you're the loser. But this is not the proper state of of mind that I would say would be worth to continuously develop it.

• 1:02:58André Duqum?

  What else?

• 1:03:01Speaker 00

  Consistency.

• 1:03:04Speaker 00

  Consistency of staying true for, let's say, for what you regard as being true.

• 1:03:16André Duqum?

  What else?

• 1:03:19Speaker 00

  What else would you like to know?

• 1:03:20André Duqum?

  Well, one thing that I've heard you share a good amount about is commitment,

• 1:03:27André Duqum?

  which I think a lot of people struggle with in this day and age.

• 1:03:30Speaker 00

  Commitment.

• 1:03:34Speaker 00

  It's a good one. It is a good one. It is not namely in one of the virtues right now, but it's still good that we mention it.

• 1:03:44Speaker 00

  I feel like people don't have a problem to make commitments,

• 1:03:51Speaker 00

  but sometimes

• 1:03:54Speaker 00

  those commitments are being broken in the moments where it would make sense to have that commitment, which is when it gets tough, when it gets difficult. But this is again, yeah, like, let's take the commitment of staying true to... staying true to your better half, staying true to your wife, staying true to your partner.

• 1:04:22Speaker 00

  It's very easy to stay with somebody who all the time behaves in the way of how you expect that person to behave.

• 1:04:30Speaker 00

  And it's very difficult to, at some point, despite all the ego and all the triggers coming up inside of you, to still figure out

• 1:04:43Speaker 00

  why would you stay?

• 1:04:46Speaker 00

  And I just can maybe tell you from this perspective,

• 1:04:54Speaker 00

  the biggest transformation, the biggest internal transformation is happening when you're under fire. And therefore, every time you find somebody in your life that is...

• 1:05:12André Duqum?

  Prodding and poking, yeah.

• 1:05:15Speaker 00

  It's very nice. It doesn't feel nice, but it is the transformation that does the most to you. And I cannot deny that it even has a very, very high, I would call it, spiritual quality to it. Because, I don't know how to say...

• 1:05:36Speaker 00

  As long as there's something to trigger, it just means there's something inside of me, there's something inside of you that stops you from feeling that freedom that you're supposed to sense. So it's good that you know there is still something to do.

• 1:05:56Speaker 00

  Yeah. And therefore, I really feel like sometimes this type of commitment in having a proper training partner

• 1:06:07Speaker 00

  is quite nice. Yeah, so when you find a training partner, stay.

• 1:06:14André Duqum?

  A training partner in the temple setting, in the life setting, like more of accountability?

• 1:06:22André Duqum?

  Are you referring to the physicality of the training? Or just like any relationship that can be that?

• 1:06:28Speaker 00

  Any type of relationship.

• 1:06:29André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:30Speaker 00

  Yeah. So of course, when it comes to to the training in the field of martial arts, of course, it would be nice to have a super good training partner there as well. This is why, like, having a type of brotherhood definitely helps. This is where, like, the whole idea of community comes into play.

• 1:06:49André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:50Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:06:52André Duqum?

  I think it's so important to rewrite our thoughts around challenges being a bad thing. You're like really shining light on how they're the most, you could say, spiritually dense, like, the most growth and possibility for transformation in those moments. It's easy to be nice to strangers. It's difficult in moments when you're triggered by a family member at Thanksgiving to imbibe those virtues, so to speak. One aspect that feels very predominant in the way that I see you and the way that I see the Shaolin path also is this level of self-control. Now, I'm curious for you just to share whatever comes to mind in regards to self-control. And what is the balance? What is the dance between?

• 1:07:38André Duqum?

  Healthy regulation of thoughts and emotions, so that you don't identify yourself as them. And where it leans too much into, or where it can be suppression of emotion. What do you think about that?

• 1:07:51Speaker 00

  Thank you for mentioning this example. It's the perfect one for me. It's the perfect one for me. So unconsciously and maybe without even knowing, I'm extremely good in keeping all type of energies for me. So regardless of why do I keep them for me, I would say that thanks to the education of my parents on the one side, but also due to the training and in the way of how that whole martial arts system is being, let's say, being taught.

• 1:08:34Speaker 00

  It's very clear that in those areas, in these Asian traditions, you always have this very clear master-student relationship. Meaning the commands come from top to down. The only thing you're supposed to do is to follow the instructions. It's not so important how you feel as long as you fulfill the orders of your superiors. So that means until today, I would say Asian culture is not very well known for being able to openly communicate emotionally with any other beings,

• 1:09:18Speaker 00

  especially when simultaneously you are a martial arts practitioner. So what did it mean for me on the long run, growing up with this? It meant that, for example, no matter how I felt, there was literally nobody ever in my surroundings I could somehow share with what I felt. So I just kept it for myself.

• 1:09:44Speaker 00

  The result of all of this is that

• 1:09:50Speaker 00

  my endurance of taking, suffering and pain is extremely high. My level of resilience is extremely high. Therefore, I think it's one of the reasons why in the first place, until today, I'm like still standing and why all of these things were happening. Because I can easily go and go and push, push forward.

• 1:10:16Speaker 00

  But at the same time, what I have, what I, what I felt is

• 1:10:22Speaker 00

  I'm a high achiever. I can do all of these things, but this one?

• 1:10:29Speaker 00

  It's never satisfied. Something's missing. Yeah, and so my example is suppression of energy, suppression of emotions is not the way. It's not the way, which made it extremely hard for me to open up. To open up, yeah, which is still like a process which is ongoing, but where I'm also like very, very grateful for the people that I have where I can open up to.

• 1:11:00Speaker 00

  And you know, this is for example, like a topic right now. I'm happy that you're mentioning it. But in the way of how like Shaolin nowadays is being propagated, this one doesn't play a role at all. It is interesting that the people can do all the acrobatics and all the great stuff. Yes, on the outside, it looks great. There, it doesn't look great at all.

• 1:11:26Speaker 00

  And this is not how it's supposed to be. So therefore,

• 1:11:32Speaker 00

  yeah. Really paying attention, how did the past?

• 1:11:42Speaker 00

  How did the past shape you? And this is therefore why sometimes it's just necessary to look into the past again in order to resolve it. And this is probably nothing that nowadays you would say what Shaolin is known for.

• 1:11:59Speaker 02

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• 1:13:00André Duqum?

  So how do you... Because people will give what seems like conflicting advice. One says, feel all your feelings. Some other might seem more stern, stoic individual saying, "Don't be swayed by the whims of your emotional state."

• 1:13:19André Duqum?

  So what to do?

• 1:13:24André Duqum?

  Surely there's a middle way.

• 1:13:26Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:13:29Speaker 00

  It's undeniable that...

• 1:13:35Speaker 00

  We are conditioned. Our body is conditioned, the way of how we are thinking is conditioned. This is the part that we refer to as, this is karma.

• 1:13:47Speaker 00

  There are habits meanwhile of living so long on this earth, habits that we carry along with us. So now, of course, you could say, so we need to do healing our whole life until all of our negative habits and all of our negative triggers are being removed. That's why people apparently go on a healing journey their whole life. This is the one area. The other area is, like you just said, to maybe

• 1:14:19Speaker 00

  suppress

• 1:14:22Speaker 00

  or just get yourself out of the circumstances that anything could actually arise that would give you a hard time.

• 1:14:31Speaker 00

  And the middle way

• 1:14:34Speaker 00

  is the one where you just start realizing that

• 1:14:44Speaker 00

  this one has no karma.

• 1:14:49Speaker 00

  This one is the one

• 1:14:53Speaker 00

  for which all of the things appear and disappear again. And as long as you somehow learn to not get hooked upon them, I think this is the shortcut. This is the shortcut.

• 1:15:09Speaker 00

  At least this is the path that right now I feel the most resonance with.

• 1:15:16Speaker 00

  Because something is just telling me like again searching, again trying to look for something that apparently right now I don't have. No, no, no, no. No, meanwhile, I really feel like enough.

• 1:15:34Speaker 00

  Why?

• 1:15:37Speaker 00

  Because I do think that the answer must be here right now.

• 1:15:43Speaker 00

  And after like just contemplating and being like really present, there's something that I literally sense.

• 1:15:51Speaker 00

  There is a type of stability that is present at all times. And regardless of what comes up or disappears again, there is a type of stability, that's it. And to practice just maybe to stay more in that state

• 1:16:09Speaker 00

  is already very, very helpful.

• 1:16:13André Duqum?

  It feels like there is a big interplay in the way that you write also about these different dynamics, how it's important to have that stability within yourself and then also have the adaptability, the structure and the freedom. And I feel like we have this programming that like freedom means you can do what you want, when you want, how you want, with who you want, as much as you want. And one who goes down that path experiences a lot of lethargy and not an experience of freedom. So I would love to get your perspective on how freedom is truly born through structure.

• 1:16:47Speaker 00

  Okay. This book was written in a time where I was still in the space of achieving, going forward, moving, the doing, and all of this. So meaning, it's an extremely helpful book for this lifetime that right now you are having in this, in this form. It helps you, let's say, it helps you in this lifetime.

• 1:17:22Speaker 00

  It won't help you if you stay with that for everything else that is still there. Yeah, so just don't get me wrong. Okay, now.

• 1:17:33Speaker 00

  One of the core sharings that are also mentioned in his book is exactly this: How does freedom and structure, how can you understand that they fit together? And there I used to tell the story of how even in our temple, you normally have a very structured daily schedule. Meaning, at what time do we get up? At what time is the breakfast? At what time is the training taking place? At what time are we having working hours? At what time is lunch? At what time is dinner? What time are you supposed to go into bed? Similar like military structure.

• 1:18:18Speaker 00

  What is the whole idea of this? That you take from whoever joins this structure, you take away the necessity to even think about what needs to be done. What needs to be done? It's written on the plan. So what is your job actually? To learn at some point. Because let's just imagine, you would come as a visitor and join us a little bit in the temple, and you have your daily structure here already. So it's very likely that if you come, you're not gonna like that schedule. You still feel tired in the morning, nevertheless, it's wake-up time.

• 1:19:00Speaker 00

  You don't feel like doing the training, but it's training time. And so what you are being faced with all the time is with your thoughts. All the time, your body is living the structure, but your mind is having a lot of resistance against it. So, are you free? No. You are enslaved by the mind. But after some time, when you start to literally give up your resistance, which happens by consistency. First week, you still fight against the schedule. Second week, you might even feel like, oh, cool. Actually, it's not so bad.

• 1:19:43Speaker 00

  Third week, fourth week, oh, you actually start to really go into the structure, surrender into the structure. And suddenly, all thoughts have disappeared. So what is it that has happened?

• 1:19:59Speaker 00

  Even though it looks so rigid, but you inside are just free. And this is, this is the first type of understanding that

• 1:20:12Speaker 00

  the true freedom is, is that one that you could even be in jail. Your body is in jail, the important part is, but the mind is not supposed to be there.

• 1:20:26Speaker 00

  And out here in the world, it's exactly the opposite.

• 1:20:31Speaker 00

  You have the possibility of traveling the world and going everywhere and having so much comfort, but you're still enslaved because of that one.

• 1:20:43Speaker 00

  So which one is the freedom? And this is what, how we understand or what I tried to share a little bit in the past, that really going into like a structured day removes the thinking.

• 1:21:04Speaker 00

  And when that happens, thought-free space, it feels good. From time to time, it really feels good. This is the whole practice of it and why I also feel like from time to time, it's good to make this experience.

• 1:21:21Speaker 00

  Because the alternative is you have 24 hours to freely decide what you want to do, at what time you want to eat, what you eat, and does it make you free? No.

• 1:21:35André Duqum?

  I love that distinction between the physical versus the mental enslavement. You know, that we presume freedom is this physical autonomy and yet so many of us suffer with our mind feeling like it is anything but free.

• 1:21:51André Duqum?

  What's sad is that so many of us grew up in an education system where we are not taught the simple mechanics of how this body and mind work and function. Simple things about the breath that we just like never taught. And so what I thought would be really fun to do, and is a bit unique because we haven't really done this on the podcast yet. So this is kind of first to step out. For those that are listening, probably hop over to check out the visual. But I thought we could go outside. It should be about sunset right now. And maybe you could share a couple of practices with us all that would help us understand our body and our breath a bit more.

• 1:22:26Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 1:22:27André Duqum?

  Let's do it.

• 1:22:28Speaker 00

  Brilliant idea. Let's go.

• 1:22:30André Duqum?

  Okay. All right, so here we are. What are we gonna do?

• 1:22:35Speaker 00

  So, I mean, Andre, you asked me, you want me to smash some bricks, which is not a problem at all. But I think I would just like to guide you through a little bit of what is it really that at the end, you're putting it all together that makes this more easily possible actually to break?

• 1:22:57André Duqum?

  Okay.

• 1:22:58Speaker 00

  Which means, for example, does the breath matter? Absolutely. Because with our breathing, we do have an effect on what in the field of martial arts we sometimes call qi, or energy. So therefore, I would say, let's just start very, very easily. Both feet approximately shoulder wide.

• 1:23:21André Duqum?

  Got to get ready for this.

• 1:23:23Speaker 00

  Yes, get ready.

• 1:23:25André Duqum?

  And what is the intended purpose of these practices? And the brick smashing is like when people observe it.

• 1:23:34Speaker 00

  It shows that you are able to literally deliver power. So deliver power is the one thing. Also demonstrates that your fist or your so-called body weapons have a certain strength. But for right now, very easy. Let's just do some inhalation, exhalation in order to synchronize breath and body. From here, inhale. Just like chest level, exhale. In.

• 1:24:14Speaker 00

  And out. Just continue with this pattern of inhaling, exhaling, but simultaneously sense inside of the body and release all unnecessary tension. Drop the shoulders, drop the tailbone, make the knees a little bit softer.

• 1:24:36Speaker 00

  Now this time, we're inhaling in the same way,

• 1:24:41Speaker 00

  but exhaling both palms to the front.

• 1:24:47Speaker 00

  Stretching the fingers. Inhaling, come back.

• 1:24:54Speaker 00

  Exhaling down.

• 1:24:59Speaker 00

  Now just relax a moment. So you see, at some point, the breathing is in, out. In, out. In, out. In, that means it becomes very natural that however the body is moving, it is always accompanied by the breath. Still like in, out, okay? So this is like a typical practice where when you repeat it more and more every day, very slowly with patience, breath and movement start to literally synchronize,

• 1:25:44Speaker 00

  which is important, for example, when we try this.

• 1:25:49Speaker 00

  Both hands, let's say, just stretch. Inhale.

• 1:25:56Speaker 00

  Out.

• 1:26:00Speaker 00

  In.

• 1:26:04Speaker 00

  Out. Now you see, for example, if I like, display it with my body. When I open, see, body is completely open, legs are like stretched, fingers are stretched. This is all inhalation. It's like I inhale, fill up my body. On the exhalation, even if I make it slow, you know, I see I start to shrink. The volume of my body starts to get small.

• 1:26:35Speaker 00

  In.

• 1:26:39Speaker 00

  Out.

• 1:26:41Speaker 00

  In.

• 1:26:45Speaker 00

  Out. And so this is the same, yeah? For example, really practicing, no resistance, no nothing, but I can feel, when you do this training more often, you can literally feel, I just call it, did it arrive or not?

• 1:27:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, I can't like literally explain now, what is it that is arriving? I just know.

• 1:27:12André Duqum?

  It has arrived.

• 1:27:13Speaker 00

  I just know, yeah? Because it's also like, I show you a little bit, if you just like, hold my hands like now. See, if you like, just feel, you see, I would actually say my, it's, I'm empty. No, if you touch me, I'm like, empty. No, it's like, you're just touching me on the outside, but I'm empty. When I'm here.

• 1:27:38Speaker 00

  You know, now it's different. Now it's like, empty again. This is now, you know, I'm here.

• 1:27:45André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:45Speaker 00

  You know, and it's this very, very subtle shift, which is also happening, what I'm paying attention on, when I smash these bricks. So that means, I don't want to, let's say, hit it, and in the moment of hitting, this is empty. I want it to be as full as it can be. And this is being done on the one side, by being able to regulate your breath, synchronizing body and movement. So, and now of course, the other part, the other truth is, you won't smash these, if like you're...

• 1:28:25Speaker 00

  How I say this? If your bone structures is not really conditioned, let's say.

• 1:28:31André Duqum?

  Yeah, you got some strong bone density there. It's like a...

• 1:28:36Speaker 00

  No, I'm sorry, you asked me for it. Yeah, I think my assistant told me you wanted to actually try some iron bars.

• 1:28:43André Duqum?

  Here we go.

• 1:28:43Speaker 00

  You're lucky I'm right now not in my full training. But just want you to like literally feel for yourself what like sometimes the human body is really capable of. So just take from here, this part of the body, which means this area, and we just like slowly do this, okay?

• 1:29:08Speaker 00

  So, right now, for example, I'm just telling you, this is now like I have, there's no intention, there is no real energy in there, yeah? Now, I just give you the first stage of when I start to put intention in.

• 1:29:32Speaker 00

  First stage, yeah?

• 1:29:35André Duqum?

  How many stages are there?

• 1:29:36Speaker 00

  No, let me give you second.

• 1:29:38André Duqum?

  Okay.

• 1:29:43André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, you sense already, it's absolutely not comfortable.

• 1:29:51André Duqum?

  I know, yeah, it's like hitting a iron bar or something.

• 1:29:54Speaker 00

  Yes, and this is just like if you do this on a regular basis, it's not only that you do all of this with the mind. It is real training of having a training partner and doing this type of exercise, yeah? Always, every day, together with a training partner. And then the body just starts to really develop tissue, additional tissue, which makes it really, really solid.

• 1:30:23Speaker 00

  And after this type of conditioning, then for what are these things used to really just demonstrate, ah, okay, he can do it? So, yeah, I don't know if you want me to do it now, so...

• 1:30:35André Duqum?

  Yeah, we can bring it, so let's see, we got a couple of bricks.

• 1:30:42André Duqum?

  So you would place a brick, something like this.

• 1:30:48Speaker 00

  So for example, yeah. Just if I make it like as a dry practice.

• 1:30:56Speaker 00

  It's the same like I showed you before. Inhale.

• 1:31:01Speaker 00

  Exhale.

• 1:31:03Speaker 00

  Inhale.

• 1:31:05Speaker 00

  Exhale. And what I'm paying attention to right now is just. I need it to be full. I need it to be full. So therefore, no, I just do some concentration.

• 1:31:56Speaker 00

  Hard ones.

• 1:32:14André Duqum?

  Got the extra hard bricks today. Should we get a different surface?

• 1:32:18Speaker 00

  You have another surface?

• 1:32:19André Duqum?

  Yeah, let's get a different one real quick.

• 1:32:20Speaker 00

  Let's try another one.

• 1:32:21André Duqum?

  Okay. Could bring a rock over?

• 1:32:29Speaker 00

  Let's try this one.

• 1:32:32Speaker 00

  I'm sorry, little plant.

• 1:32:47Speaker 00

  This is definitely American-made.

• 1:32:52Speaker 00

  And look at how dense that one is.

• 1:32:54André Duqum?

  Extra hard bricks. You got like indestructible bricks, bro. Where did you get these?

• 1:32:58Speaker 00

  Wherever you get this one from, tell them it's a really good quality.

• 1:33:03André Duqum?

  I'm definitely not trying that now.

• 1:33:06Speaker 00

  Like for example, what we regard as forms at some point when you practice like the martial arts, it's similar like a choreography.

• 1:33:15André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:15Speaker 00

  That in the beginning, it's like you have different moves. Then you merge them together and then they become like a sequence. And the nice part about it is that after some time, you're actually getting into a type of flow where there's no thinking anymore. Give you for example, a simple flow we can do together.

• 1:33:35André Duqum?

  Okay, is that here?

• 1:33:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, from here. Bring the hands to the front.

• 1:33:41Speaker 00

  One.

• 1:33:45Speaker 00

  Two.

• 1:33:48Speaker 00

  Three.

• 1:33:51Speaker 00

  Four.

• 1:33:54Speaker 00

  Five.

• 1:33:57Speaker 00

  Let me show you this from here. One.

• 1:34:02Speaker 00

  Two. Three. Four.

• 1:34:07Speaker 00

  Five. This is like one type of sequence that we can do. Front.

• 1:34:15Speaker 00

  Down.

• 1:34:18Speaker 00

  Up.

• 1:34:21Speaker 00

  Okay, yeah, so let's try this together.

• 1:34:27Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:34:30Speaker 00

  One. Two.

• 1:34:35Speaker 00

  Three. Four.

• 1:34:39Speaker 00

  Five. Down.

• 1:34:45Speaker 00

  One more time. Hands to the front.

• 1:34:52Speaker 00

  One.

• 1:34:54Speaker 00

  Two.

• 1:34:56Speaker 00

  Down. Front. Down.

• 1:35:03André Duqum?

  Something like that.

• 1:35:04Speaker 00

  Something like that. Let's try from here.

• 1:35:06André Duqum?

  Okay.

• 1:35:08Speaker 00

  One, turn the body to the left side.

• 1:35:10André Duqum?

  Okay.

• 1:35:11Speaker 00

  Left side. Right leg, step out.

• 1:35:16Speaker 00

  Open.

• 1:35:20Speaker 00

  Step in.

• 1:35:21André Duqum?

  Okay.

• 1:35:22Speaker 00

  Let's just make two movements from here. Step out.

• 1:35:28Speaker 00

  Step in.

• 1:35:29André Duqum?

  Okay, step in.

• 1:35:30Speaker 00

  Okay. Step out, both arms also pointing outwards. Okay. Left leg straight. And from here, both arms rotate, rotate, rotate, rotate. Right leg, step in small.

• 1:35:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, go out. Now here, for example, pay attention, the way of how the hands are moving.

• 1:35:59Speaker 00

  Rotate, rotate, rotate. Here, now you're here.

• 1:36:03André Duqum?

  Okay.

• 1:36:04Speaker 00

  You see, so there's a rotation of arms. Step out.

• 1:36:10Speaker 00

  Remember the rotation. This direction. Step in.

• 1:36:19Speaker 00

  Out.

• 1:36:21Speaker 00

  In.

• 1:36:23André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:23Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:36:32Speaker 00

  Rotate.

• 1:36:34Speaker 00

  Yes, now just have a look, for example.

• 1:36:36André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:38Speaker 00

  Look, the whole idea is,

• 1:36:41Speaker 00

  like, on a philosophical point of view, we want to use the body as one unit, as one. So look, when...

• 1:36:55Speaker 00

  You see, this is, this is the movement we just did. But look how everything is here.

• 1:37:13Speaker 00

  So when my, when my center, center, shoulder, waist move, everything move. When I open my center.

• 1:37:31Speaker 00

  One.

• 1:37:34Speaker 00

  And this is for example, how then, until now, everything is gentle, gentle.

• 1:37:40Speaker 00

  But using this idea of

• 1:37:44Speaker 00

  we have high, therefore we have low. We have left, therefore we have right. We have close, therefore we have open. We have soft, therefore we have hard. We have soft, therefore we have

• 1:38:02Speaker 00

  hard.

• 1:38:19Speaker 00

  And this is where then, you can just practice how to release energy.

• 1:38:26André Duqum?

  What is the point of these choreographed movements? What are you cultivating? What's the intention? And how could somebody take one of these practices they saw? Or maybe others that you share in your book and online? What are they cultivating?

• 1:38:38Speaker 00

  So on the one side, it is

• 1:38:42Speaker 00

  while doing all of this thing, no thinking. So definitely, I don't have right now any type of problem that's outside of where I am right now. So it means you really learn to focus on the one side. But then, the way how to move the body is in, you know, the idea is that we're using everything as like one unit, like in harmony. And what it does therefore, when the body used in harmony, your energetic system also starts eventually to adjust itself and become harmonious. Like what sometimes we call the meridians, the channels, or the energy in your chakras, however you call it, by using the body.

• 1:39:28Speaker 00

  You're naturally harmonizing all of it. Which eventually means, what is the benefit? You're not sitting the whole day, not using the body. And therefore, all the energy inside the body starts to get crazy in having thoughts that are not useful and helpful at all. So you start to create crazy thoughts because you haven't used your body to help you regulate your energies. So what is the first thing that happens that people will realize in daily life? When they start doing movements more? You feel more balanced. You feel more harmonious in a very natural way.

• 1:40:12Speaker 00

  No esoteric component to it. Just very naturally, you have a body, therefore use it.

• 1:40:20André Duqum?

  In a different way that typical exercise might, right? So like with physical exercise, lifting weights, compare it to some of these more, some of these practices that perhaps have a more energetic component to it.

• 1:40:33Speaker 00

  I think it comes from the fact of that you don't have any type of, let's say, machinery. There is nothing else that you are working with, only with yourself. You work with your own movements, with your own body, with your own joints, with your own breath, with your own mind. That's all you need. Mind, body, energy, meaning breath. And so this is the idea why, you know, it's available to everyone. I would say this is the easiest and most affordable, most quickest way of doing something for yourself.

• 1:41:12André Duqum?

  Yeah, that was challenging too. Like a few of those movements, I was like out of breath after doing a few of them, which I think I'm in decent shape, so. Cool, well, let's go, I have some questions. Let's go back in the studio and let's chat. More about this, cool.

• 1:41:25Speaker 00

  All right.

• 1:41:25André Duqum?

  All right. Don't hit me too hard. That was hard, man. Your forearms.

• 1:41:33André Duqum?

  Fun, fun. It's a... It's like a recess when you're a kid. You get to go outside and play.

• 1:41:42André Duqum?

  Man, it's so, uh... So very fascinating and just impressive also. I think what is so attractive initially to what people see online with Shaolin monks is these incredible physical feats, breaking bricks and woods and metals. And it's... Yeah, it's very inspiring to see how far this body can be pushed with a level of mastery.

• 1:42:10André Duqum?

  I've also seen some crazy things online, whether or not they're real, with people doing stuff with their chi and...

• 1:42:18André Duqum?

  You can also feel it. Like, there's obviously a real dense physicality to the movements when you exert yourself in a certain way. But there's an energetic component that, from maybe more of a scientific lens, it feels a bit woo. But I think in the real practice, you feel... You feel so...

• 1:42:43André Duqum?

  So immediately. And I'm just curious for you to share your thoughts on that component, that component, that chi and the energy.

• 1:42:51Speaker 00

  I mean, let's...

• 1:42:55Speaker 00

  You know, all of these things of breaking the stuff and all these apparently superhuman feats, yeah?

• 1:43:03Speaker 00

  After all, you see humans doing these things, yeah? So first of all, meaning, why is it superhuman? It is humans right now doing it. It is just that.

• 1:43:16Speaker 00

  Many of these... People have just dedicated a lot of their lifetime in cultivating something through consistency, maybe even through passion. And this is the ingredient for just about a lot of things when it comes to if you really want to achieve something, that's just the way to go.

• 1:43:39Speaker 00

  But now, in this field of martial arts, we call it having a skill, developing a skill. But there are other areas in this world where you're also like completely amazed by what are people able to do, which have now nothing to do with martial arts, but is still very, very impressive. So

• 1:44:02Speaker 00

  it is nice, of course, to look at all these things. It is also nice to be in the training sometimes and like show off a little bit what you have learned, what you can do, all of these things. But and now it's important again, in the context of that one,

• 1:44:28Speaker 00

  it's rather counterproductive even, I would say. Why? Because you're trying to develop and create something that more and more just literally strengthens your sense of false self, if you don't pay attention. But core teaching is not about that. So this is the part where I would just say, you can train all of these things. It is fun in a way, but don't forget the essence of why are you training all of these things? And the why is to maybe help you to use all of these things as a bridge.

• 1:45:11Speaker 00

  As a bridge, meaning to

• 1:45:16Speaker 00

  yeah, to at some point

• 1:45:19Speaker 00

  Make the jump from the physical, physical and visual aspects to something that cannot be seen. But, okay.

• 1:45:30Speaker 02

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• 1:46:28Speaker 00

  Anyhow.

• 1:46:31Speaker 00

  It's fun for sure.

• 1:46:33André Duqum?

  Super fun. I would love to come next time in Europe. If you're at the temple, I would love to come.

• 1:46:38Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 1:46:39André Duqum?

  Yeah. I love just being a student and there's so much to absorb there. For everybody that's listening right now, what's one thing you would teach them about the breath in a very practical sense that they can carry with them?

• 1:46:52Speaker 00

  So also, this is one thing that I mentioned in the book also.

• 1:47:00Speaker 00

  We can live without a lot of things in this world. We can't live without the breath. But the breath is so undermined in terms of we literally don't pay any attention to it and just think it's about in and out. Okay, so what is the first thing people can do? It's not just in and out. What you can pay attention on is how much in, how much out. Or how fast in, how fast out. Or how, let's say.

• 1:47:42Speaker 00

  How, how deep actually do you follow the breath entering through the nose inside of the body? This is where you hear about abdominal breathing, reverse breathing, Dan Tian breathing. Doesn't matter, the whole idea is by practicing, becoming more aware, the breath can actually travel quite deep, this is how it feels, into the body. Then it is not just a shallow breathing which is related to the chest and the lungs, it actually becomes the fuel

• 1:48:20Speaker 00

  for, for the whole body. Yeah, so, and these are all like things, how the breath can actually also be a, a very nice meditation object. Meaning, something to put your mind on and just follow the flow of breath. Just walk through the day, follow the flow of breath. So, and, um, why is this like very helpful? Because through the breathing, you can adjust at least and regulate quite a lot also about all different types of imbalances that people nowadays have.

• 1:49:02André Duqum?

  I wonder how much of the imbalances and illnesses and sickness and disease could be really regulated and supported by simple understanding of our breath.

• 1:49:13Speaker 00

  It's not only the breath, it is the whole lifestyle itself. This is why in, in traditional teachings, there are literally like three areas to really like pay attention on, yeah? It's your lifestyle,

• 1:49:30Speaker 00

  it is the way of what are you breathing, and literally it is the diet, to boil it down. Like, you wanna make some big changes in your life? Those three areas. What is your lifestyle meaning? What time do you wake up? What time do you go to bed? What are you, or in what type of surroundings are you spending your time in? Second of all, everything related to the breath. Do you have a developed breath? Do you breathe shallow? Do you smoke? Anything like this. And number three is your diet.

• 1:50:08Speaker 00

  All these three things together makes a big, big amount of how do you feel on an average day? What problems, mental and psychological and also physical problems are you facing? I do feel like those three areas is something where you can directly look into.

• 1:50:29André Duqum?

  It seems like so much of the advice, the conversation, the inspiration, the ideas that we're sharing are all aiming towards alignment in some context, in some way, in some fashion. And the Eightfold Path is very much so referring to the various different aspects to find that a level of alignment for right speech and thought and action. What does right in that context mean? To take it to one example, like right view. What does that mean for you?

• 1:51:04Speaker 00

  Let me try to really make it not too complicated for people and especially not too religious for people also. Because the noble Eightfold Path is often related to Buddhism and still many people in this world are believing that Buddhism is a religion or Buddhism is, let's say, a way of life. But as from my understanding, in the first place, it is a practice. It is a practice. And what is this practice aiming at? And therefore, let's jump very, very clearly back. What is the aim of Buddhism?

• 1:51:45Speaker 00

  Let's say, to liberate ourselves, to transcend the cycle of birth and death. Why? Because if you don't transcend it, you suffer. So meaning, what's the purpose of Buddhism to not suffer anymore? What is the reason why we humans suffer? Greed? We want more than we need? Hate? We reject sometimes or have resistance against what we are facing. But the third one, very interestingly, is called ignorance. And now ignorance for what?

• 1:52:28Speaker 00

  Ignorance for the reality, the truth of how things are. And this ignorance meaning, as long as you identify yourself with this, with the body and the mind, you are ignorant. You're ignorant for how the things truly are. Now, we're living in the 21st century and it feels super strange now for me to sit here and try to convey to the audience also that there might be the possibility that what you regarded as self and identity up to this point is not the way how it is.

• 1:53:15Speaker 00

  And if you continue to ignore this

• 1:53:21Speaker 00

  statement, the chances are high you continue to suffer. And now, based upon this, these three, these three,

• 1:53:33Speaker 00

  let's say, views right now, greed, hate, ignorance, this is where a step-by-step instruction, for example, is starting with the noble eightfold path. So if people want to know, "So what am I supposed to do now, like practically wise, like step-by-step guide?" It is exactly this. Watch your view. How are you viewing yourself into this world? The right way, the perfected way of viewing yourself embedded into this nature.

• 1:54:10Speaker 00

  Because if you have

• 1:54:13Speaker 00

  a false view already, if you're looking at the world with false eyes, then everything that follows afterwards is not based on truth anymore. It is again based on your thinking, based on your own imagination. Therefore, meaning

• 1:54:34Speaker 00

  the consequences of false speech, of false action, of false behavior is just gonna follow. Yeah. So, what's the way to do?

• 1:54:48Speaker 00

  I do feel like taking your time and literally opening the space and the possibility. How come that the audience right now is watching this podcast with a very, very clear title, Know Thyself? And me sitting here trying to already, like for the last like four podcasts, like keep telling the same stuff over and over again, that I feel like something is shifting in this world. And it's all the question about realizing,

• 1:55:26Speaker 00

  yeah, it's different. Yeah, and I don't know how else to say this.

• 1:55:34Speaker 00

  So I, I wouldn't say it's a coincidence for whoever is watching this episode right now,

• 1:55:42Speaker 00

  seeing this one, seeing you, seeing me and listening to whatever they were listening right now.

• 1:55:49Speaker 00

  And that is at least from my side now also the final message, yeah?

• 1:55:56Speaker 00

  To continuously walk right now in this lifetime and always just looking for new input, new input, new input, new input, but not actually taking really into consideration what is right in front of your eyes. This is also ignorant.

• 1:56:16Speaker 00

  It's already here.

• 1:56:20Speaker 00

  It has already been spoken many, many, many times. And that's why looking for more knowledge and for more information, but none of that putting it into real experience and, and, and, and practice and real life is not helpful at all and it's just gonna bring you nowhere.

• 1:56:43Speaker 00

  So therefore, listening to one podcast and really trying to maybe go into it and deeply contemplating about the content of what just has been said sometimes is more useful than just waiting for the next podcast to come and look for more input, just to distract your mind. Yeah.

• 1:57:06André Duqum?

  I think that's an important reminder because especially, I mean, I love listening to podcasts. I'm sure people that listen to mine, listen to many others and they hear these words. And there's these insights and words that can be shared, but the experience is what essentially can't be transmitted. And so it kind of comes back to, I feel like, that reminder you're giving everyone to like, put it into practice into your own life.

• 1:57:33André Duqum?

  The, for me, cultivating right view or to view things as they are is like one of my strongest aims and desires in life. To me, it's deeply painful to be living life in my own prism of imagination and coloring circumstance based off my own prejudice.

• 1:57:55André Duqum?

  And I think something I'd love to get your perspective on is there are clear blockers throughout time that many different individuals have come to realize that are consistent throughout humanity and the way this human mind and body is set up. And you refer to the five hindrances. There's many different ways and frameworks to explore what are the consistent blockages or blockers to accessing our true self. I think it's really important to go in now. And I know you have shared many times on different podcasts and whatnot, but I think it's important to keep sharing.

• 1:58:32Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:58:36Speaker 00

  Prior of me traveling to the US, for example, and also like knowing already in preparation, there are gonna be so many people asking me questions. I also consulted with my teacher and asked him so. Because he kept on telling me, be careful. The more you talk, the more you talk, the more you try to explain how this life is functioning, you are actually misleading the people. He always told me, talk less, talk less. And just, how I say? He just said, talk less. Don't try to answer questions of each individual.

• 1:59:19Speaker 00

  You need to break the question. And I was contemplating then at some point, like, what do you exactly mean? And he just told me like this. If you have fifty podcasts, you're gonna receive minimum fifty different questions. And I could continue in this lifetime answering these questions. First of all, most of the time, these questions are always asked because the individual who is asking,

• 1:59:55Speaker 00

  how I say this?

• 2:00:00Speaker 00

  Actually knows the answer already.

• 2:00:03Speaker 00

  The question is the answer.

• 2:00:07Speaker 00

  Second point, he said, is, don't focus on the question. Why? Always try to point back and ask, where's the question coming from? And where is the question returning back? This is the answer to all the questions. This is the answer to all the questions. So stop trying to give everyone a single key to unlock their one question. Just try to give them the master key, which is not even me giving to you, which is you just realizing for yourself

• 2:00:51Speaker 00

  by figuring out where did that question, for example, come from?

• 2:00:57Speaker 00

  And where will it go?

• 2:01:00Speaker 00

  That is the state to stay. And then nothing needs to be done anymore. Too many questions just brings back to sinking. Sinking is what stops from realizing. Conceptualizing the five hindrances, the noble eightfold path, the four noble truths, the whatever commandments. It's concept. Concept can never be truth. Truth can never be spoken. That's why it's that you can't read it to get it. It can only be transmitted sometimes.

• 2:01:44Speaker 00

  And when you are lucky enough, it just happens without any recipe of how did you get there. It just happens. And that's what I trust.

• 2:01:56André Duqum?

  Uh huh. I agree, I think that especially in the podcast space, it's a delicate balance, right? Because here we are supposed to be talking on a podcast. And it's a balance, at least for me, you know, as someone who's asking questions. Surely if the seeking and the question asking is sincere, then surely there would become a point in which one no longer wonders about the same questions. And so for me, I'm in my own inquiry of like, what questions are being asked that I think will actually provide a useful framework that eventually will have to fall away, but will be useful in the meantime for those listening. Where is my genuine seeking coming from? Where are my actual questions?

• 2:02:40André Duqum?

  I think that a question well phrased is an answer half given. When you actually know what it is you're actually asking, it's a whole art form and something I'm passionate about. And so I fully resonate with you. And I do think that these frameworks, with the context that you just gave, allows people to find that reference point and pinpoint it in their own experience, right? Not take it as a doctrine that just they add into their mind, but when it comes to sensory desire, you know, and how that clouds our mind to like pinpoint that and name it when it arises in the moment. So I would love to still go through these five hindrances, if you're down.

• 2:03:25Speaker 00

  Good, all of them.

• 2:03:28Speaker 00

  All of them.

• 2:03:31Speaker 00

  Sensory desire, aversion, ill will, like monkey mind, let's say.

• 2:03:40Speaker 00

  Slosh and torpor, so feeling like not being able to move forward. And at the end also, um, what is the last one?

• 2:03:50André Duqum?

  Doubt, yeah. Skeptical doubt.

• 2:03:52Speaker 00

  Doubt, okay.

• 2:03:55Speaker 00

  At the end, you can all view them as clouds covering the sky. Very simple like this. Five hindrances of what in that story of, well, how I named it was, you're on the journey up on the hill. Let's say you have a mission, you have a goal, a very clear mission you have. And there are five hindrances that would actually stop you or make it difficult for you to continue your clear path. Why? Because when those five hindrances appear, they are covering your view. You're, you're starting to lose the path, what you initially wanted.

• 2:04:40Speaker 00

  But now, in the Buddhist context, those who are named the five hindrances, like we just named them before. Meaning you are very, very easily irritated by temptation.

• 2:04:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, what all type of temptation. Temptation to the eye, temptation to the nose, temptation to the ears, doesn't matter like. You are getting lost into the pleasantness of life.

• 2:05:07André Duqum?

  The sensory experience.

• 2:05:09Speaker 00

  The sensory experience, this is the one part, yeah? So that means, in practical ways, pay attention of what on a daily basis is pulling your awareness or your thoughts. On what are you getting hooked? That you would actually feel like, yeah, but isn't it a nice thing? Yeah, of course, it's a nice thing, that's why it's easy to get you hooked. But the devil is not stupid.

• 2:05:38Speaker 00

  The devil has very, very nice ways of tempting you. That's why it's not so easy to sometimes.

• 2:05:48Speaker 00

  Say no, okay? This is, for example, this idea of what is it on a daily basis that easily hooks your mind? Even though you think, yeah, but isn't it something beautiful to follow my passion? To follow that call whatsoever? This is the one, one type of cloud that takes you away from the way. The second one is that I described as, let's say, ill will or aversion, meaning something happens in your life that literally you don't like. It feels unpleasant to you. But because of this unpleasantness,

• 2:06:30Speaker 00

  you start to create something in order to push all of these things away from you. So you're trying to reject something and not accepting the fact of it is how it is. It's raining right now. It is really difficult to walk. It's not pleasant, I know, but you can't stop right now. Either you continue your path or you're getting again hooked away by the negative thinking that this situation that you're in right now should be different.

• 2:07:12Speaker 00

  But should be is thinking. So again, regardless if you're being hooked by pleasant thoughts or you're trying to reject unpleasant thoughts, they all have one thing in common again. We are talking about thoughts again. And this just continues even with the hindrance number three, restlessness. It's not finding clarity or peace of mind because you continuously jump like the monkey mind

• 2:07:53Speaker 00

  from branch to branch, very restless. But what is it actually that is restless? Mind.

• 2:08:03Speaker 00

  Mind is restless.

• 2:08:07Speaker 00

  Number four hindrance, heaviness. Heaviness of mind, like maybe if I can express it like very, very demotivated.

• 2:08:19Speaker 00

  A very feeling like trapped.

• 2:08:22André Duqum?

  A dull.

• 2:08:23Speaker 00

  Dull. Smoking too much pot, something like this.

• 2:08:27André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 2:08:29Speaker 00

  Don't wanna like get into movement again, but also state of mind.

• 2:08:35Speaker 00

  And number five, doubting. Meaning already killing the idea because it before it even started growing. These type of things. So what are these five hindrances ultimately? They are just different states of the mind that can make it difficult for you to continue that path.

• 2:09:00Speaker 00

  And what I'm trying to tell you, what I why I actually didn't want to like come up with these five is because just make it simple. There is just one state of mind necessary

• 2:09:15Speaker 00

  to maintain. And then you don't need to count anymore. Because even mentioning the five, it's just the five where you can categorize a lot of other thoughts into it. But it is a concept. But the whole idea is like this.

• 2:09:39Speaker 00

  There's nothing.

• 2:09:42Speaker 00

  And in this nothingness, from time to time, something arises. And the reality of things is whatever starts to rise also disappears.

• 2:09:58Speaker 00

  And where are you back then?

• 2:10:01Speaker 00

  Into nothing.

• 2:10:03Speaker 00

  Next thing comes up, same nature.

• 2:10:07Speaker 00

  Disappear. Something pleasant comes, that pleasantness will disappear. Something unpleasant arises, that unpleasantness would also disappear. One thought arise, that thought will disappear. Many thoughts arise, many thoughts will disappear. As long as you don't lose the proper perspective. It doesn't matter which of those five comes. You just need to remember

• 2:10:36Speaker 00

  the starting point.

• 2:10:39Speaker 00

  And this is why I appreciate so much this very, very direct way of what Zen is known for.

• 2:10:49Speaker 00

  Yeah? This is exactly why at some point Zen teaching was, let's say, developed. Because many other Buddhist traditions, the five this, the four this, the eight this, the thirty six this, the one hundred eight this, the twelve this. So you learn, you learn and intellectualize things. And Zen just tell you, wake up.

• 2:11:18Speaker 00

  Nothing? Something? Nothing.

• 2:11:23Speaker 02

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• 2:12:21Speaker 00

  Thing? That's it. This is what to keep.

• 2:12:27Speaker 00

  I like it. Very direct.

• 2:12:30André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 2:12:32André Duqum?

  That was so well said. I think, um, as we, circling back to the beginning of this conversation, referred to the progression of the path, you know, what seems like kind of an esoteric term, raising your consciousness, is going from, in practical sense, this clouded state of mind to the essence of who we are, that experience of nothingness.

• 2:12:57André Duqum?

  And I've, I've heard you share a bit about like increasing our sensitivity, our capacity to listen to the subtleties, the way that our mind is frequently pulled into, by any of these hindrances.

• 2:13:10André Duqum?

  So what are your thoughts on how one can increase their sensitivity and ability to listen?

• 2:13:16Speaker 00

  This is again where I feel like the idea of staying more with yourself helps, which at least from the way of how I try to share, is being done. Deal with your body. Do something with the body.

• 2:13:35Speaker 00

  This is the starting point of what sometimes is being called turn inwards again. Like speaking in pictures. It's like this. In the morning, you're like still sleeping, body is still sleeping, mind is also still sleeping. Boom, then you wake up. So from that moment on, boom, all your awareness literally starts to go outside of you. You see something that is outside of you. You hear something that's outside of you. You smell something that's outside of you. So if you don't pay attention, that means your whole awareness, the whole day long, is just busy with something that is outside of you.

• 2:14:20Speaker 00

  And so, how come I don't hear what is going on? And I don't feel? And I don't see what goes on, really like inside of me? Yeah, because you're busy with all this stuff outside there. That's why turn the view inwards. How?

• 2:14:50Speaker 00

  Simple things like this. Stay with yourself. Sense the air. That's why I said before, how, how long do you inhale? How long do you exhale? How quick do you inhale? How quick do you exhale? You can only answer this if you are there where the breath is. And where is your breath normally? There where life is taking place. No breath, no life. Therefore, breath equals life. Therefore, so much traditions. Take the breath as the meditation object.

• 2:15:34Speaker 00

  Because it answers, or, or it carries a lot of simple truths in that, in, in the essence of the breath itself, yeah.

• 2:15:44André Duqum?

  Yeah, there's a simplicity to it as well that needs no doctrine to follow, right? That's why I love Anapana when they teach early on in Vipassana. Uh, there's just an immediacy to paying, paying attention to the breath, which I find, uh, is very accessible for everybody because we're, you know, we're all breathing. As you have risen, your own sensitivity, your own ability to listen, what, what's one thing that you have noticed that you completely missed before? About life, about the self? Anything that comes to mind?

• 2:16:21Speaker 00

  Yeah. There is no inside, there is no outside.

• 2:16:30Speaker 00

  There is no inside, there is no outside. Sensing. It's not just sensing, how I say, it's not just sensing like...

• 2:16:44Speaker 00

  You sense the room right now.

• 2:16:48Speaker 00

  Normally, people would say, "It's outside, it's outside of the body." That's true.

• 2:16:55Speaker 00

  But it's not outside of you. It's outside of the body, but it's not outside of you.

• 2:17:04Speaker 00

  And this is the interesting part.

• 2:17:08Speaker 00

  Does all of this just appears for you?

• 2:17:13Speaker 00

  It's just somehow, it happened to be that we think this is me. And I think it's not.

• 2:17:23Speaker 00

  I think it's this.

• 2:17:27André Duqum?

  How does that change how you live, that awareness?

• 2:17:32Speaker 00

  Nothing to lose, nothing to win.

• 2:17:36Speaker 00

  Yes, it's very simple.

• 2:17:38André Duqum?

  I love it.

• 2:17:39Speaker 00

  Nothing to lose, nothing to win. And it's just, whatever is there, it's supposed to be exactly like this, good. Just literally like, when you really just ask yourself,

• 2:17:56Speaker 00

  as far as you can like sink back into your childhood, into the past,

• 2:18:02Speaker 00

  both of us, we didn't look the way of how we look right now. We didn't dress the way of how we dress. We didn't possess the knowledge that maybe we possess today. We didn't have the ideas that meanwhile we are creating with the mind. But if you would just like sink back,

• 2:18:21Speaker 00

  if in the past, we would have sit together like this,

• 2:18:27Speaker 00

  everything that we would have be surrounded with would be different.

• 2:18:33Speaker 00

  But something would be exactly the same as it is right now. Exactly the same.

• 2:18:40Speaker 00

  Nothing that could be added, nothing that could be taken away from it. Exactly the same.

• 2:18:47Speaker 00

  And there is something always changing. The houses that we live in, our body starts to change. What pops up in the mind, something starts to change. But something is always the same and has never changed. This is maybe.

• 2:19:10Speaker 00

  Never born, never dying.

• 2:19:17Speaker 00

  If it is that, nothing to lose.

• 2:19:21André Duqum?

  In the Third Zen Patriarch, they open with, "The great way is not difficult for those with no preferences." And it reminds me just of what you said, of when you had this experience of there's no inside, no outside, nothing to lose, nothing to win. That's freedom.

• 2:19:42Speaker 00

  Kind of, yeah.

• 2:19:44André Duqum?

  It's like, then

• 2:19:48André Duqum?

  we're no longer under the constant tyranny of thinking that our ideal life is somewhere externally to be acquired. It's here right now, living it in the moment. And all these practices, the understanding of the hindrances, the Eightfold Path,

• 2:20:05André Duqum?

  the practices of the breath, like, I think all of these have just been incredible reminders to come back into that realization. Yeah.

• 2:20:13Speaker 00

  They definitely have their place and are very useful, but only if you just really know what is their place. And I think they are just like bridges.

• 2:20:29Speaker 00

  But you need to, at some point, go to the other shore.

• 2:20:34André Duqum?

  If you had 60 seconds to share one message with humanity, simple, simple ask, what would it be?

• 2:20:43Speaker 00

  Listen to this podcast very carefully, because everything that needs to be said is inside this one. Nothing more to be added.

• 2:20:56Speaker 00

  Yeah. Exactly that one.

• 2:20:59André Duqum?

  All right, fantastic. We'll need to put that at the beginning. I think people will be eager to hear what was said. Shagni, it's been such a pleasure. I

• 2:21:14André Duqum?

  I love the variance and the differences in who I get to sit across from, from different paths, different walks of life. But there are certain ones that are a bit more special to me because they carry they carry a level of energetic transmission, you could say, that is more deeply felt for me, I think for sure, our audience and community, when someone is living what they're sharing. And that's, we're all on varying degrees of that level of embodiment and integration. But I feel it with you very deeply. And I think that you're doing incredible work with your book, with your channel, with the temple, with everything that you're doing. And so we will leave links down in the description where people can find your book and all the work that you're up to in the world.

• 2:21:56André Duqum?

  And that's it. Do you have any other thoughts or things you'd like to share before we head out?

• 2:22:00Speaker 00

  Yes, please make some advertising for the brick company US-made because it was a real hard hitter.

• 2:22:09André Duqum?

  I have to take some responsibility for that. We should have found something harder to set them up against. Those bricks though, man, they're made of something. We need to find who makes them and have them sponsor the podcast.

• 2:22:22Speaker 00

  Thank you very much, Andre.

• 2:22:23André Duqum?

  Yeah, thank you. Until next time, be well.