E170 - Dr. John Churchill: The 7 Stages of Awakening (and How Consciousness Evolves)

Transpersonal psychologist and dharma teacher Dr. John Churchill joins us to explore how ancient wisdom and modern psychology unite in the path of conscious evolution. Drawing on decades of training in Tibetan Buddhism and developmental psychology, John reveals how the Bodhisattva path—awakening not just for oneself, but for the benefit of all beings—offers a map for our individual and collective transformation. https://livemomentous.com and use code KNOWTHYSELF for up to 35% off the best creatine in the game 20% off Pique Life Tea: https://www.piquelife.com/knowthyself Guided Meditation: https://youtu.be/i_5WApfC1pM Andrés Book Recs: https://www.knowthyselfpodcast.com/book-list ___________ 00:00 Intro 01:38 Humanity’s Evolutionary Moment 03:14 Planetary Perspective & Spiritual Transition 04:15 AI as Symbol of Transformation 05:06 End of Time & Psychological Judgment Day 07:18 Destiny vs. Fate in a New Age 09:06 Shift into Love as a Developmental Stage 10:57 Individuation & Inner Sovereignty 12:00 Seven Stages of the Heart-Mind 13:32 What Is the Heart-Mind? 14:02 Reincarnation & Consciousness Evolution 16:02 Awakening in Animals & Soul Development 17:00 Beauty, Goodness & Truth vs. Ego Development 18:43 Ad – Momentous Creatine 19:04 Cartesian Split & Blossoming Intelligence 20:21 Stage 1 – Awakening the Heart Seed 23:06 Stage 2 – Emotional Healing & Astral Awareness 26:08 Stage 3 – Training the Mind & Sacred Sciences 33:15 Stage 4 – Stabilizing Heart-Mind & Path of the Bodhisattva 36:46 Pitfalls on the Spiritual Path 42:00 Stage 5 – Integration & Service 46:22 Ad - Pique Life 48:30 Stage 6 – Transcendence & Non-Dual Awareness 56:00 Stage 7 – Embodied Wisdom & Planetary Participation 01:04:00 The Bodhisattva Path in Modern Times 01:11:00 Navigating Glamour & Spiritual Ego 01:18:00 The Role of Practice & Discipline 01:25:00 Collective Awakening & Cultural Healing 01:32:00 Mystical Science & Sacred Technology 01:39:00 The Return of the Sacred Academy 01:46:00 Inner Sovereignty & Social Transformation 01:53:00 Living from the Heart-Mind 02:00:00 Final Reflections & Call to Action 02:06:00 Conclusion ___________ Episode Resources: https://www.planetarydharma.com https://www.instagram.com/planetarydharma/ https://www.instagram.com/andreduqum/ https://www.instagram.com/knowthyself/ https://www.youtube.com/@knowthyselfpodcast https://www.knowthyselfpodcast.com

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:59Speaker 02

  What's a financial system that is beautiful? What's a medical system that's beautiful? What's an agricultural system that's beautiful? I mean, I think we all have a sense of ones that which aren't. You begin to intuit that there's a matrix. We're at a moment of significant transformation. The question is, what story do we find ourselves in? We started with rubbing sticks together to make fire. And here we are at a moment where we're about to release a fire, which is the symbol of AI, of artificial intelligence. It's going to reveal our imaginations to us. Which way are we going to choose to go? When we pull way back, I think the first thing we have to recognize

• 1:43Speaker 02

  is that our story as humanity is woven into the story of our beautiful planet. We are part of a much larger system. We're not alone. It's the sense of separation that makes it so difficult. I think the world's going to get kind of interesting.

• 2:00André Duqum?

  It already is. It's more and more by the day.

• 2:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:09André Duqum?

  Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the Know thyself Podcast. Our guest today is a returning guest. He has a degree in both contemplative psychology and clinical psychology, and he has really deep knowledge from a mystical lens of Tibetan Buddhism. And we've had the pleasure, which I don't always often have the pleasure of doing, having a couple of days in advance to spend some time together, to dive deep to support each other on each other's work and missions. And it's just a pleasure to be with him, Dr. John Churchill. Thanks for coming back.

• 2:38Speaker 02

  Thank you, Andre. It's a pleasure to be here.

• 2:41André Duqum?

  I thought it would be great to, again, set the context for this conversation by exploring what evolutionary moment we find ourselves in right now, humanity finds itself in right now. Because you have this really unique background and practice to be able to have the consilient understanding of these different ancient wisdom traditions about what they all point to, like where humanity and Earth finds itself at this time right now. And as we later in this conversation weave in how we can both find our own unique gifts and unique responsibility to show up for a planet that needs us in this time, it's helpful to set that context. So I would love for you to share your thoughts there.

• 3:24Speaker 02

  Thank you. Well, it's

• 3:28André Duqum?

  Small question.

• 3:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, it's helpful to start with, you know, with the story. I think it's

• 3:37Speaker 02

  story is one of the way, it's one of the languages of the universe. Like, there's a language of mathematics, there's a language of physics, and it's definitely a language of story. So the question is, is what story do we find ourselves in? And when we pull way back, I think the first thing we have to recognize is that our story as humanity is woven into the story of our beautiful planet. So whatever it is that is occurring to us, we are part of a much, a much larger system. So that planetary perspective, I

• 4:19Speaker 02

  think, is super helpful, because our own spiritual journeys, our individual spiritual journeys, and the evolution of us as a species is related to this planet we find ourselves

• 4:38Speaker 02

  Clearly, we're we're finding ourselves in some kind of moment of transition, no? Is that your sense?

• 4:48André Duqum?

  I think it's everyone's sense.

• 4:50Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 4:50André Duqum?

  You know, I think for the most part, we all have this feeling that we're on the precipice of a big transformation. And in some sense, it's never been better. And in some sense, it's never been as worst in terms of like the mental health pandemic.

• 5:04Speaker 02

  Right.

• 5:05André Duqum?

  I think we could all agree that we're in a moment right now.

• 5:08Speaker 02

  We're in a moment.

• 5:09André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 5:09Speaker 02

  We're having a moment. Yeah, so that's that's really helped just to hear from you that that's like, yes. So clearly, if we look at the the symbol, the big symbol that's in front of us right now, which is the symbol of AI, right, of artificial intelligence, which is a symbol of, in many ways, humanity's tool making capacity. Right, we started with, we started with rubbing sticks together to make fire, and then we've used fire for however many cycles of time it is.

• 5:51Speaker 02

  And here we are at a moment where we were about to release a fire. So it's helpful, I think it's helpful to look at it through a mythic lens. And by that, I mean, the kind of the, what's the story here? Well, the story of this fire is that we're at a moment of significant transformation, that the humanity is asked to evolve from one state to another state.

• 6:33Speaker 02

  And if we look at all of the the various wisdom traditions, they all point to an end of time. And I don't mean that in a kind of the end of the world, but I do mean it in the sense of an end of a world, because we've been living inside the time.

• 6:53Speaker 02

  And as I said to you the other day, there's no way that thirty years from now, AI is going to think that living in the Gregorian calendar is like a really well harmonically designed way of bringing humanity into relationship with the cosmos. So we're at the end, we're at the end of a time. And my sense is, is if we, if we look at that psychologically and metaphorically, it's a psychological judgment day, if you will, for our civilization, meaning which way are we going to choose to go? Because we have this amazing tool that is, that is like, that is inevitable, is inevitable,

• 7:38Speaker 02

  is coming to us. And it will send the wheel of suffering spinning one way or the other, or probably both ways, right? So it's a, um, it's a, it's a time between ages. It's the seeds of maybe what we have called the new age, which quite literally means a new time. So we're at the moment where the old timing isn't working. I think we all feel that. We recognize that there's a world that our hearts know is possible, right?

• 8:21Speaker 02

  And yet we're going to have to make a journey in time, if you will, an exodus from one way of being to another with immense opportunity. And also, um, I think it's probably going to get a little bit crazy as well. Yeah. How does, does that, how does that ring true for you?

• 8:51André Duqum?

  It feels like any system goes through its own evolutionary process. And it's easier to see from like the microcosm of a human being that is born and grows through adolescence and becomes an adult and goes through old age. And there's a timing to that. There's like an evolutionary process that you can observe. When it becomes this big, complex system, you know, while you're inside of it, I think it's harder to gain context for where it's at.

• 9:22André Duqum?

  But I think I wanted to start here because it helps frame the place we find ourselves in.

• 9:29Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 9:29André Duqum?

  And then it asks, you know, begs the question, what do we do?

• 9:32Speaker 02

  What to do?

• 9:33André Duqum?

  Yeah, what to do?

• 9:36André Duqum?

  And I just know that there are many themes and questions that I personally ask myself that I'm sure our viewers and community also ask themselves of like, how to best, most effectively use the and make use of the gifts that God has given us individually and our unique skillsets and our unique capacities to show up and, you know, feel the responsibility of the time that we're in.

• 10:00Speaker 02

  Right.

• 10:01André Duqum?

  And, um, and so I'm just curious, if you had one perspective shift you would love for our listeners by the end of our conversation to have?

• 10:11Speaker 02

  I think, I think we're being asked to make a significant shift into a world of love.

• 10:22Speaker 02

  And by love, we actually mean a developmental state. We mean actually a developmental stage. You could say there's a developmental stage where, where love comes on in a really major way. And that along with that, love comes a depth of wisdom and intuition and synchronicity that we can, that is trustworthy. So I think what I'd love to leave, leave our listeners with is a sense that there of where to discover what is trustworthy.

• 11:06Speaker 02

  Where, where we, where do we discover what is trustworthy within us? Where we can find refuge and sanctuary. And from that place, then allow ourselves to blossom in amidst all of the uncertainty that's going around us. And that having confidence that that's actually the macrocosmic process that we're going through as well. That each of our own little journeys to our heart and to a deeper sense of interdependence is what we're being asked to do individually and as a species. And if we do that, if you do that,

• 11:50Speaker 02

  then you're going to move in the direction of destiny and away from being caught just by fate.

• 12:01André Duqum?

  Jung is quoted in many different flavors and contexts, saying that if you don't make the unconscious conscious, it will rule your life and you'll call it fate. And I think what's really powerful about your understanding, your teachings and kind of multidisciplinary approach to understanding the human developmental process is that it reclaims a sense of sovereignty and ability to help people where they are at along the journey. And what are the things that need restructuring in our psyche? What are the parts of us that have not become individuated? And then building up of the higher centers as well. And so last time in our last conversation, I love how we went through the Senate,

• 12:46André Duqum?

  the sort of seven person perspectives that we kind of grow through. And as you like wake up to the world that's happening out there, which you can't avoid, nor would we want to, but it's in front of our face every single day. And we ask ourselves what to do. A big part of it is to actually

• 13:08André Duqum?

  Reconcile the division that we have internally, as then you'll be most effective doing that externally. So, shall we start to make our way through the seven stages?

• 13:21Speaker 02

  Through seven stages? For sure.

• 13:23André Duqum?

  Yeah?

• 13:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, that sounds good. I was thinking, this is more now the seven stages of the heart-mind itself. So, kind of going, maybe like going inside those seven stages a little bit deeper.

• 13:36André Duqum?

  What is, how would you describe what like the heart-mind is? For people that don't know that term, what are you referring to there?

• 13:43Speaker 02

  Well, so, in the, in the East, in the Buddhist tradition, they talk about this term bodhicitta, which bodhi means awakening, and chitta literally means mind. But as you know, in India, mind is here, not here. So bodhicitta means awakening heart-mind, or heart-seed. And it's basically comparative to what we would call Christ consciousness. So the heart-mind is referring to

• 14:24Speaker 02

  the first split that we have suffered from. So for whatever reason, we look back into mythic time, and frankly, who actually knows the causes? But we've experienced a split between our intelligence from our knowing capacity and our feeling capacity. So even in our culture, in Western civilization, there's a kind of split. But as, as you know, whether it's, well, all the indigenous traditions, from Native American to Druidic to the Vedic, to the Chinese, Mayan, heart and mind are synonymous, right?

• 15:06Speaker 02

  So the first thing to recognize is, is that. And so, you know, the birth of the, the heart-mind happens

• 15:20Speaker 02

  Somewhere along our evolutionary journey, because all of these wisdom traditions, there isn't one wisdom tradition in honesty that doesn't consider a kind of some kind of reincarnation or a longer, that we're on a longer journey than just a single lifetime.

• 15:39André Duqum?

  From the Gnostic or mystical roots.

• 15:42Speaker 02

  From the world's esoteric perennial tradition.

• 15:45André Duqum?

  Because people would say, of course, Islam, Christianity, no. But if you go down to the mystical Sufism or mystical Kabbalah, Christianity.

• 15:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. Like those.

• 15:58André Duqum?

  They see life on a continuum.

• 16:00Speaker 02

  They see life on a continuum, which means. And there's also a perspective and those, an evolutionary perspective in those traditions of consciousness itself slowly evolving from matter, right, from rock, through the plant kingdom, through the animal kingdom, through the human, and so forth. So that kind of sense of progression, which, I mean, now with the insights of quantum physics, this idea that consciousness might be like a fundamental, the foundation of reality,

• 16:44Speaker 02

  it's actually, it isn't so far off. So at some point in that process, we might say, consciousness begins to become aware of itself in a way where it no longer experiences itself as being separate, but begins to like open itself. And so, right, in the, in the Christian mythos, that's like the birth of the baby in the manger, right? The birth of something in your heart that extends itself beyond yourself. And quite honestly, you can have like, you can see that even in certain animals. Like, I have three dogs

• 17:29Speaker 02

  and clearly, these are, these are souls who are, their bodhicitta has awakened, right? Obviously, they're not a full Buddha, but they're in that process. Like, you can see the light in their eyes, the joy in their eyes. So.

• 17:45Speaker 02

  What we mean by the heart mind is the, another way of putting it is the soul. Right? So the soul, the individual, individualized unit of consciousness that slowly blossoms through loving wisdom.

• 18:03Speaker 02

  So it's important to recognize that, last time we talked about seven stages of development.

• 18:14Speaker 02

  But development doesn't, doesn't necessarily mean that the heart is developing. Alright, so you can, you can be quite sophisticated and still be significantly selfish. So when we talk about the heart mind now, what we're going to talk about is, let's say, how, how beauty, goodness and truth unfolds. Not just how development happens. Does that make sense?

• 18:41André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 18:42Speaker 02

  Yeah?

• 18:42André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 18:45André Duqum?

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• 20:09Speaker 02

  Do you want to start at the very beginning then? Like, step one, the seed?

• 20:13André Duqum?

  I think so, yeah. I think you set the context beautifully there. We're very much so from the kind of Cartesian way of understanding mind and heart as separate and valuing the intellect as the premier form of knowing, of garnering information. And what you're speaking to with the heart mind is like, okay, the blossoming of knowing that is beyond just the intellect, like unlocking your intelligence as a life. And that's like, the blossoming of that is the raising of the, of the beauty of what it means to be human. And, and so I think it'd be great to kind of go through the arc now and, yeah, talk about the developmental process along the journey.

• 20:58Speaker 02

  Right. So we're talking about developmental process that our listeners can probably recognize in their lives that's unfolding and also pull back that it, that you can also recognize it unfolding in the world around us because you can see people who are really at certain, certain phases for a whole life, right? So maybe the first, you know, the first birth of that seed, when it happens to us and we begin to realize, for whatever reason, that we're not in Kansas anymore, something begins to awaken in the heart.

• 21:43Speaker 02

  And because whether that's care for another or care for the world, but as the heart opens, what comes along with it is an intuitive capacity. So when we talk about the heart mind, we're also talking about a level, a form of intelligence that isn't causal, that isn't a, a thinking kind of intelligence, but is a direct intelligence, direct knowing. So when, when the heart begins to open, the very early stages, you begin to get an intuition.

• 22:30Speaker 02

  And if we use the common language that our culture has developed now, you begin to intuit that there's a matrix. Like you begin to realize that there's something going on. You don't know what it is, but the story that you've been told about what's medicine, about what money is, about the whole, the whole story that you find yourself in, something begins to not feel quite right.

• 23:01Speaker 02

  And that's also, so the world begins to get rocked a little bit. The world that we've been told, you know, what the world is. And this is where, when that happens, people can begin to have a susceptibility to conspiracy. Because in fact, conspirators, yes, like there is something going on.

• 23:24Speaker 02

  However, because what happens now is a, is a journey of not knowing. It's difficult in the beginning to handle like not knowing. And so the mind wants to grab on to the kind of, what an alternative truth might be, which of course, as long as you hold on to, then you've created another matrix, right?

• 23:49Speaker 02

  But that first phase has to do with, in some ways, waking up to the, the sacred dimension of your body, of matter, of realizing that spirit is real, that the sacred is real. And often, the first thing that you realize that is sacred is your body, because that's kind of where you're at.

• 24:11Speaker 02

  So we become aware of what's good for our body, what food to eat. We begin to intuit like, oh, maybe these medicines that are being pushed on us, maybe they're not medicines, maybe actually they're poisons. So that whole journey of taking care of the body, right? Taking care of your health, starting yoga, going to the gym, drinking your green juice.

• 24:42Speaker 02

  Right? So that it can look like that. It can also look like kind of.

• 24:48Speaker 02

  Attacking the system, if you will, on a physical like this world is not right. You know, being being an activist, if you will. So that's the first like step one. The seed is is beginning to sprout. The next phase, if you will, is when that process as the heart begins to open more, it begins to open into our emotional body. So that's where we begin to recognize. Not only is there a physical body to be tended to and loved, but there's also an emotional body.

• 25:26Speaker 02

  And then along with that can come access to what some traditions will call the astral. So this is the phase where therapy, psychedelic work, sexual healing, healing of all kinds of the emotional body becomes super important. And I mean, I think everybody who's listening, we all we've all made that journey and the recognition like, oh, I need to I need to feel what needs to be felt. I need to come back to my to to process the kind of multi generational trauma that I might be holding.

• 26:09Speaker 02

  So that's that whole second, that whole second phase. Does that does that ring true in your in your journey in terms of taking care of yourself and taking care of your emotional state?

• 26:20André Duqum?

  Yeah, it feels like feels like the values start to shift because you realize one, oh, there's a matrix in a sense that there is a world I was born into that has a way of operating that becomes the status quo that you realize doesn't have to be the way that you live your life. And then like, oh, OK, I want to reclaim sovereignty instead of just being a good consumer for a system to like, remove a and then start to go on that process of removing the baggage that you've been inculcated with.

• 26:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, right. And that's a big, I mean, there's a big, there's a large amount of people now engaged in in that in that process of purification. And of course, what happens is the heart is opening up more. As we're purifying the the multi-generational trauma we've inherited, the intuition is also opening up more and more, and we're beginning to intuit. Maybe our intuition is now becoming more accurate. We're, for instance, now, because we've moved in some ways deeper than the physical plane, our intuition is being able, is it starts to actually be able to see accurately

• 27:42Speaker 02

  what's happening physically, like what are the forces, if you will, at play in the world? What are the various kind of political, social power struggles that are happening? You begin to be able to see that because to for some extent, your heart is now, let's say, deeper than the physical. And in some ways, you begin to kind of, you become curious like, well, what's going on? Like, in these other realms, right? So that's also where people's multi-dimensional experience can start to open up, and particularly if they're working with psychedelics,

• 28:23Speaker 02

  which is opens up that whole shamanic realm, which is becoming increasingly, increasingly popular. So that's the, that's the second phase. The challenges there traditionally was a term called glamour. And glamour glamour is where the, the astral, well, it's just a word, it's just that's a word like one can become enamored by the imagery of the spiritual, if that makes sense, right?

• 29:04Speaker 02

  Rather than the, well, the self will always hold on to something. So at the first phase, we hold on to the physical body and it's body beautiful. And the second phase, we kind of hold on to our self-image, and it's a kind of imaginal beauty. We're kind of holding to ourselves.

• 29:29Speaker 02

  As a self-image, as a story.

• 29:35Speaker 02

  The third phase is as the heart opens even more is it begins to include more and more of the mind.

• 29:46Speaker 02

  So it's interesting because this is, this is an area of the sacred that has really been somewhat hidden. I'm sure you've had quite a few guests on who talk about kind of alternative science and physics and those kinds of things. But essentially, as the heart opens into the cognitive mind, we begin to get a whole appreciation of, let's say, the sacred dimension of physics, of chemistry, of mathematics. It's where the interest in the maps, the interest in mind training begins.

• 30:28Speaker 02

  We realize, oh, wow, I have a mind, I need to, it needs to be trained. So there's a whole path of mental discipline that begins, that begins there. And I say it's, it's somewhat missing in our culture because for whatever reason,

• 30:50Speaker 02

  and we can, we should maybe talk about that, but the, a good example would be Isaac Newton. So clearly he is one of our ancestors who is really grounded in Western ways of thinking. So what many people don't realize is 90% of his work was on alchemy.

• 31:14Speaker 02

  So just, just to get a sense of what the academy, what the sacred academy would look like if the sacred had been part of the ren, of the Renaissance and the Enlightenment for the last 600 years.

• 31:34Speaker 02

  And that's been somewhat hidden, you know, and hidden mainly because.

• 31:43Speaker 02

  As the sacred returns back to the mind, then there's a question of, well, who's really running power on this planet? By who's in charge? Because for a lot of, for, for since the, you know, the, the deal that was made between, let's say, the church and science, was that the church got spirit and the science got matter. And then they were kind of separated. But that third phase is really about recognizing that actually it's a spectrum. And so all the sciences connected to understanding the spectrum of

• 32:26Speaker 02

  vibration and quality, like music, vibrational medicine, they're all, they're all kind of born at that phase. And so obviously you've had guests come on who that's their kind of department, that they're like, that they're really helping to revive the sacred sciences. So that third phase, now for some of us who maybe we're not, we're not scientists, but on our journey, we enter that third phase when we realize, oh, I have a mind. And this mind is out of control and I need to train it.

• 33:09Speaker 02

  So all the, you know, the Patanjali's Yoga Sutras, the beginning of the Pasana practice, any kind of meditative discipline really begins at that, at that phase.

• 33:25André Duqum?

  Okay, great. So you wake up, you realize we're not in Kansas anymore. You have your first initial pop into, okay, reality is different than I had the presumption of.

• 33:40Speaker 02

  Then?

• 33:40André Duqum?

  Then you start to go into exploring different modalities to reclaim your sovereignty, essentially.

• 33:47Speaker 02

  That's right. You begin your healing process. You begin to realize that there are other realms beyond this realm. And then you begin to realize, oh, I need to train my mind. My mind needs to be trained because in order to go further, I need to have some kind of, some kind of stability, some kind of, my attentional system is all over the place. I'm not, well, you begin to, you begin to have moments where you recognize there's something beyond your mind. So the heart, the heart mind is opening up naturally. So you begin to get experiences in nature

• 34:28Speaker 02

  or in relationship or doing kinds, you know, kinds of practices where the mind drops away and you get a sense of ease and spaciousness and openness and love. But it's not sustainable. And so that's really when you realize, oh, I need to pick up a practice. So that's that third phase. And so much of the emphasis there is on training the mind and training the attentional system. The fourth phase is where, as that heart seed,

• 35:07Speaker 02

  if I use the language from Christianity, the Christian mystical kind of journey, that first phase is like the birth in the manger. So the birth of the seed in, begins to grow. The second phase is called the baptism, which is the waters. So the emotional waters are being cleaned, so to speak. That third phase, we could, is called the transfiguration. So you begin to get moments where you're transfigured, where you're experiencing, you have tastes of that deeper heart mind. It's not stable. In the Buddhist tradition, they

• 35:50Speaker 02

  call that the, the path of, of seeing. You, you get moments where you see.

• 35:59Speaker 02

  The fourth part of the journey is where you've done, you've begun to do your practice enough that it has enough momentum that you're beginning to able to shift from being identified with the mind to being identified with the heart. And what happens there is, in the Buddhist tradition, they call that the beginning of the path of meditation, not because you started meditation, but because now you're in a state of meditation most of the time. It's not that that experience of love wisdom

• 36:42Speaker 02

  or of spacious ease is far away. In fact, you can bring it back in any moment in time. Now, what you're doing is you're really walking the path of allowing that to mature itself in the world.

• 36:59Speaker 02

  And in the Buddhist tradition, they call that the path of the Bodhisattva. It means that now the heart will open up more, that heart wisdom opens up more as you actually engage with the world more.

• 37:16Speaker 02

  And in the Christian tradition, that's called the crucifixion. And crucifixion, because essentially what happens is you realize there's no way to go higher, there's no way to go lower. You essentially find yourself crucified, if you will, in that fundamental openness of love. And you have nothing to do but participate in the world.

• 37:47Speaker 02

  So that's that fourth phrase.

• 37:51André Duqum?

  So can we just pause for a second?

• 37:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:54André Duqum?

  What are some of the pivotal realizations and practices you've been alluding throughout? That kind of are things and pitfalls along the journey of kind of like arriving to the heart, where you're living your life from a integrated intelligence that is greater than just the intellect. You start to grow your intuitive capacities, all these things, some of which you mentioned are, you could fall into the conspiratorial rabbit hole and stay there. You could become identified with the spiritual look, which is quite common and easy and slippery and comes in waves, I think. Start to identify with the form of how something looks.

• 38:35Speaker 02

  Right. So that, so the third, the next sticking point is you get stuck on the tech, on the spiritual tech. So the, so is that what you mean? Like what else comes along?

• 38:46André Duqum?

  Yeah, another, yeah. So another one is like the, the necessary discipline of training the mind is obviously important, but then it can become.

• 38:54Speaker 02

  Then it becomes a thing.

• 38:55André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 38:55Speaker 02

  Because, because you're training your mind, the tendency is to think that you're the mind. Because you're training the mind, your mind becomes more capable. Because you become more capable, you become more efficacious and more effective. And so now the sticky thing is, is now you've got an even more efficient mind that is more capable, is more able to be successful.

• 39:19Speaker 02

  And are we able to release, to release that?

• 39:23Speaker 02

  Now, that's also the, the stickiness there is also.

• 39:32Speaker 02

  There is a.

• 39:36Speaker 02

  It's easy then to also get caught in the technique side of whether that's, let's say,

• 39:45Speaker 02

  you know, healing with sound or whether it's like vibrational healing or healing the mind. There's a whole world of technical.

• 39:57Speaker 02

  Technical sacred sciences to be learnt and explored. And of course, that's a really, that's a really important thing for work. Like, some people, that's their work, but you wouldn't want to stay identified with the mind of that place. So that's the, the, the, um, getting caught in the mind is, is super, super easy, particularly as it becomes an enlightened mind, right? The mind of light. So for all intensive purposes, it can look very spiritual, but it's still, um, still a thinking mind.

• 40:35Speaker 04

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• 41:04Speaker 01

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' healthcare to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the HouseMajorityPac.com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 41:39André Duqum?

  What do you see as like the predominant, I guess, shift that takes people from the Transfiguration to the Crucifixion? That goes from like, maybe in your own personal journey, what was the thing that really deepened you from like the, uh, the attractiveness of the aesthetic path? And the contemplative practices to, um, like not coming to practices because it's what you think you ought to be doing, but rather your heart brings you there? And you're, yeah, you're moving more from, from that center.

• 42:13Speaker 02

  So that, that really has to do with, with the heart itself. So in my, my own experience...

• 42:22Speaker 02

  Part of that is beginning to realize that actually, love isn't a technique. And so, the more, the more we begin to realize that the essence of the opening of the heart is its relational. So to the extent that we begin to realize that the world out there isn't just a world out there, but it's a reflection of, of who you and I, who we are. So to the extent that we begin to see in the world, the suffering that we see, the struggles that we see, to the extent that we begin to realize that we're not separate from that. And as the, as the heart naturally opens in terms of compassion,

• 43:06Speaker 02

  as it opens, that interconnectivity opens up the wisdom mind even more. So what happens is the wisdom mind is now opening based on the depth of, in, of your feeling of interdependence and care for, for creation, for the world around you. And then, I think as that, as you begin to get a sense of that, you also begin to realize that there's also a larger intelligence that is, I mean, some traditions would call it God, and that's, but that, at least the first kind of

• 43:51Speaker 02

  level of God is, if you will, that the planetary system that we're in, it's also an expression of the sacred. And that everything that is arising within this planetary system is an expression of that one life. So you begin, so you begin to, I think you begin to feel one, the one life and the one heart. And your intuition begins to guide you into service. So that's part, I think part of the service, part of the path is, how can you serve?

• 44:35Speaker 02

  And then, things begin to open up in a, it's a, it's a more of a natural process. Begins to become a little easier.

• 44:47André Duqum?

  It sounds like probably for the majority of people, and I'm assuming in your path, the thing definitely in mind, the shift there is having the subjective experience of unit of consciousness, having taste beyond just the mind and the practices that open up the attentional system like you referred to. You experience like the interpersonal dynamics of the world and you feel connected to it.

• 45:12Speaker 02

  Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. So

• 45:17Speaker 02

  the unit of experience, which in some ways is not the highest experience, but what it is, is the one that we share the most. So that unit of experience of feeling that there is a field of love that binds and weaves everybody together, that is intelligent, that it

• 45:40Speaker 02

  that is trustworthy and it can guide you. That I think is that that's like the birthing of a new level of GPS system for your soul.

• 45:54André Duqum?

  Start to be guided from a different place.

• 45:56Speaker 02

  You start to be guided from a different place. And you start to experience synchronicity in a deeper way.

• 46:07André Duqum?

  How does that change the relationship between you and what you think you want? Because I'm curious, like, when operating from the mind, we proclaim all these things that we think are best for us. And often they're futile when compared to the intelligence of the heart and these deeper intuitive capacities that, you know, life can actually unfold much more beautiful.

• 46:32Speaker 02

  And how have you, well, how do you differentiate that?

• 46:38André Duqum?

  I think firstly identifying that desires from the mind can only be a recombination of past information or input. So I can only think I want something based off of being exposed to it already. So it's kind of in the known already.

• 46:55Speaker 02

  So there's some, so there's some degree of, of not knowing and innocence in how the heart unfolds as opposed to the mind?

• 47:05André Duqum?

  Yeah. And there's a certain level of, when it comes to the mind, a level of, it's my own perceived self-imposed genius, like this is the, you know.

• 47:16Speaker 02

  Right.

• 47:17André Duqum?

  The mind thinks its own ideas are brilliant.

• 47:19Speaker 02

  That's right. That's right. So the difference between, I think the difference between the heart and the mind here is that the mind's, that the heart's process, if you will, is it's auto-poetic, meaning it unfolds in a dynamic way, really centered in the here and now.

• 47:48Speaker 02

  And it can handle the not knowing, as opposed to the mind where it tends to orient towards the past and the future and it's building, as you said, it's building whatever it builds based on what it knows. So the future that wants to be born in this moment in time is going to be born out of the heart, if you will, and that means it's going to be born out in an emergent process where we don't, where we kind of have to stay with the mystery and have a capacity to stay with what we, what we don't know rather than what we do know.

• 48:29André Duqum?

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• 49:14André Duqum?

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• 49:48André Duqum?

  How do you, how would you respond to someone saying that feels quite idealistic when you look out in the world and see how much division and separation there is? Do you just think that there needs to be a significant minority of people that kind of reach that level of consciousness?

• 50:03Speaker 02

  Well, I think the first thing to recognize is that it's not that you're intel, it's not that all of the, all of the skill set that you have developed over this lifetime,

• 50:18Speaker 02

  it doesn't, it's not as if it goes away. So it's not as if your mind and all of the skills that your mind has developed goes away. It's more that.

• 50:30Speaker 02

  It's able to start functioning spontaneously without premeditation. So, so the intelligence doesn't go. The strategic capacity doesn't go. Whatever field of that you're in, the body of knowledge that you've built up, that's not gonna go. What's gonna happen is

• 50:59Speaker 02

  your, your capacity for innovative knowing and innovative response is going to increase. So I think the first thing is, it's not, it's not, it's not a, yes, a one level. You're living in a, in a deeper state of not knowing. However, what the mind is able to generate from that place is actually of a higher grade.

• 51:30André Duqum?

  I think you're more able to also just like to have the distinct knowing and perception of what desires or actions are being motivated from love versus fear.

• 51:43André Duqum?

  Which kind of goes into the fifth stage, which is like acting and expressing with this deeper intelligence and.

• 51:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, so.

• 51:55Speaker 02

  Let me just, yeah, let me just take a, let me talk a little bit first, just about this. This process is also a process of increased complexity. So there is, the mind is also, we didn't leave the mind behind, the mind is growing. So it means that the mind now has more facets like a diamond. So as that diamond has more facets, it has, it becomes more beautiful. So we can think of the path as.

• 52:23Speaker 02

  Having dimensions of truth and goodness and beauty. So the goodness aspect has got to do with the depth of interconnection and the depth of relationality that opens up the love wisdom of goodness. The developmental piece of intelligence, intelligence is related to perspectival capacity. We talked a little bit about this last time I was here. First person perspective, second. And if you think of that as a diamond having different cuts. So the development of the mind or of our perspectives is actually related to aesthetics or beauty. The mind itself becomes more beautiful

• 53:08Speaker 02

  because it has more cuts. It has more facets to it. So for instance, just approximately, like I think third person perspective has the capacity for maybe 400 perspectives. I'm just pulling. Fourth person perspective has about 1,200 to 1,400 perspectives. When you get to seventh person perspective, which the way I see it, that is a kind of a mature Bodhisattva. It's about 540,000 facets or perspectives.

• 53:43André Duqum?

  What does that mean?

• 53:44Speaker 02

  It means that the sense of cognition or knowing can be incredibly spontaneous and incredibly creative because it's not just, there's 540,000 facets that the mind could take any one particular perspective to look at a situation in a particular way.

• 54:10André Duqum?

  So there's a, yeah, you would say there's a direct correlation with the growth of intelligence and the ability to take on multiple perspectives.

• 54:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, and that's not necessarily like knowing intelligence. It's just knowing something like that. So. It isn't, it isn't that it, it's not that it becomes impractical. Actually, there is a very, very practical part of this process, which is the, which is the, the mind becoming more beautiful and therefore able to create more beauty in the world. Right? What's a financial system that is beautiful? What's a medical system that's beautiful? What's an agricultural system that's beautiful? I mean, I think we all have a sense of ones which aren't, right? As a, but we all can get, we can get a sense of, oh, yes, there is a way that our financial system could be beautiful and equitable

• 55:00Speaker 02

  and based on a much deeper level of gratitude and sharing than the one that we currently have. So, um, yeah, some, so I just wanted to, it's, it's not a kind of naive, kind of woo woo process. It's, it's actually the opposite. You're going to become a more effective servant in the world. Now you said the flight, the fifth, like that fifth phase.

• 55:31Speaker 02

  So to the extent that we are opening that heart mind and loving the world,

• 55:43Speaker 02

  we begin to intuit, this is where we begin to intuit that there is a, that your particular soul, so Andre has a particular skill set that you're, that you are apprenticing yourself to. What I mean by that is, is that

• 56:12Speaker 02

  at that fifth phase, you begin to realize that yes, you are a unique being. With unique gifts. And those unique gifts, you didn't necessarily choose them, right? They're related to something that is authentic and archetypal. And whilst you might, or I might try and possess them, they actually shine through as a unique gift that you have to give the world. Each of us has to give the world. Right, so to the extent that we begin to wake up to our archetypal identity.

• 56:57Speaker 02

  So you could almost say that this is beginning to wake up to your avatar self.

• 57:02André Duqum?

  Your own hero's journey.

• 57:03Speaker 02

  Your own hero's journey, and you're beginning to be able to actually, I mean, I think there's been a significant part of the hero's journey, what we've described thus far. But I think this is where you actually begin to see who the hero is that you're meant to become, right? Because I'm not going to become a Baryshnikov or an Einstein, right? And you might not become a Picasso, but you're going to become what it is that you're meant to become based on the unique archetypal qualities that you exhibit. So in that sense, what's interesting is it becomes very, it becomes personal. But what you're apprenticing to

• 57:47Speaker 02

  at the same time is impersonal because it's, you're in service to that. It's not, and sometimes that's not easy because sometimes your personal gifts are going to ask you to do things and follow the journey in such a way that you're like, hang on a second. Right? You know, I'd rather not do this. But you have a sense of what it is that you're personally meant to do.

• 58:15Speaker 04

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• 58:44Speaker 01

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' healthcare to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the House Majority PAC dot com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 59:17André Duqum?

  And I think it's important just to reflect on how, at least in my own life, the more that I've kind of, sort of, the more that I've directly connected with the heart space, you could just call it, the more that from the abyss of my consciousness, I'll have intuitive insights, I'll have knowings that come to me, I'll have inclinations or thoughts or ideas that didn't seem to be stimulated from necessarily the outside. And like you said, those might ask me to do uncomfortable things. Go on a journey, take a trip, go explore a practice or something that I feel like is going to serve me or others in a, in a unique way.

• 59:58André Duqum?

  And I think there's a direct level of suffering that comes from ignoring listening to those things.

• 1:00:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:07André Duqum?

  And they need to be louder and become like, just more like, like someone's yelling in our ear before we listen to them.

• 1:00:13Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:00:14André Duqum?

  First is the ability to like, pay attention to the subtleties and the whispers that are, that we're actually being guided, that we can attend to these more subtle forms of, of knowing.

• 1:00:25Speaker 02

  And when, when you've done that in your life, would have been, I mean, would have been the gifts.

• 1:00:31André Duqum?

  It's tough to see in the moment, but in hindsight, it becomes much more clear that there is a string of events that feel so connected that without one, the other wouldn't have happened, that directly developed my capacity to meet life in the next moment, you know?

• 1:00:53André Duqum?

  And, uh, and so I can see perfectly how different things or different chapters of life or skill sets that I was developing contributed to me being able to do what I do next. And, uh, yeah, they're all connected.

• 1:01:09Speaker 02

  Right. So, so the, so what we're saying is, is the synchronicity, there's a relationship. So this is important for all of us, double click on this, listeners, is your, our hearts are in resonance, that unit of field of the heart is in resonance with the unit of field of the, of the planet itself. So that's what the alchemists call the alamamundi. So the soul of the world itself as a being is also trying to awaken. All right. So our planet wants to become a garden university planet, right? A university of beauty, goodness and truth, a learning organism, just like we do.

• 1:01:50Speaker 02

  So as your heart, as our hearts are opening and they come into resonance with that unit of field, the synchronic nature of the intelligence of the planet, this is, it begins to participate in helping to facilitate that process. So outer events begin to conspire to support. Of course, the challenge is, is we like the synchronicities which feel good and not the synchronicities that are like, that feel bad. But to some extent, what's happening more and more now is our lives begin to become

• 1:02:29Speaker 02

  synchronic, which means that the function of destiny is beginning to come online and that life itself is beginning to teach you and present to us exactly the circumstances needed for the right amount of friction, for the lesson to happen, so that you can then deepen into your, your, your embodiment of this. Because.

• 1:02:57Speaker 02

  Paradoxically, the like, the deeper the realization, the deeper the embodiment. It's not the mystery of pure spirit. It's the mystery of incarnation. So what we're talking about here is actually a whole incarnatory process of how does spirit get deeper into matter? And to do that, my soul and your soul, you need the support of the intelligence of the world and of your life to make that happen. So that's what begins to, that's what begins to happen more and more. And to the extent that you say yes

• 1:03:36Speaker 02

  to the process, even if it's uncomfortable, then the, you know, then this, this kind of this next phase is really beginning to kick in.

• 1:03:47André Duqum?

  So that sixth stage, which in some ways connects to like a six person perspective as well, like the deeper knowing, you could sort of start to appreciate the hero's journey that you're on, so to speak, and see that there actually is like you're deepening up your perception and ability to see that there is a grander intelligence working beneath the surface, so to speak.

• 1:04:09Speaker 02

  Yeah. Before we like go to sixth, six person perspective or that sixth phase, I think it's really helpful to just back up to the actual, like the narrative structure of this, because what we're describing isn't just our own personal process, but we're all, we're all doing this. So if you think about the heroic journey, the hero with the 10,000 faces. Essentially what that is, is that is the archetypal description of how do we give birth to this new culture, civilization?

• 1:04:54Speaker 02

  How do we, how do we land it?

• 1:04:57Speaker 02

  So we went through first and second and third perspective.

• 1:05:02Speaker 02

  The third phase, at that third phase, you're really becoming a sacred warrior. Like, that's really cooking quite nicely. And that third phase, you know, I mentioned Isaac Newton. It's also got to do particularly with the sacred dimension of modernity. And by that, I mean that you have a mind, and there's a matrix out there, and you have to somehow conquer it in some kind of way. And that process of that third phase particularly bakes in the individuation process, to like, separate yourself from being fused with the collective and to become a true individual.

• 1:05:44Speaker 02

  It doesn't necessarily mean yet that you've become your archetypal avatar self. That's that kind of fifth phase. But you've extricating yourself from the unconscious and from the collective enough that you've become an individual in this world, an individual personality. And that's really what, that's the journey that we've all been doing for the last 400 years, y'all. So if you're out there, we've done that journey. And most of the listeners know that part of modernity. In the heroic journey, the next phase of that fourth phase,

• 1:06:27Speaker 02

  the crucifixion, which sounds quite grim, or the path of meditation. But I think if we put it in terms of the story, it's we get to the village. It's like the heroes in the Avenger movies. You've been watching them, each of them individually, do their own thing. And then suddenly, it becomes the circle. Because in the heroic journey, the heroine, she doesn't give, she doesn't get to actually give her gift until she come back, she comes back to the village. And the village isn't a metaphor. So it's not like you can just give your gift to the, you know, to the village when there is no village.

• 1:07:10Speaker 02

  So the actual, let's say, that an important part of the heroic journey at that fourth stage is to, we need to build the village. We need to build the circle. We need to build the community.

• 1:07:29Speaker 02

  And I think most of our listeners recognize like how important that is, right? That actually, I'd love to hear also your your reflection on that, that the journey of kind of individuality, there's a, there's definitely a chapter where it ends and you realize that without a we, um, this is, this isn't gonna unfold the way it's meant to.

• 1:07:55André Duqum?

  I think it's important to reflect also, like you said earlier, that as you grow at like these, you transcend but still include the prior parts. So even though we wake up beyond the sense of just being an individual ego moving through the world, we are still a part of the greater whole.

• 1:08:12Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 1:08:13André Duqum?

  But it's just not our whole reality.

• 1:08:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's, you're gonna need that.

• 1:08:19André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:19Speaker 02

  We're gonna need it. That doesn't go. You know, your sense of being a strong, that phase of the hero's journey is about developing a strong solar plexus, like a strong sense of self. And um, that's also sacred. Like the idea that like the self should have like a, you know, wet handshake. Um, when actually, if you read the great classics, that, you know, their classics of heroism. And even if the hero, even if he or she wasn't a warrior, she, she was a hero of virtue.

• 1:08:59André Duqum?

  Yeah, we were talking about this on the car ride the other day and the different ways that that sort of fire expresses itself differently according to the person.

• 1:09:09Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:09:10André Duqum?

  Like Ramana Maharshi versus Gandhi and how they appear on the outside, they're doing very different things than they are.

• 1:09:17Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:09:18André Duqum?

  But the, the level of consciousness and stage of consciousness that they're tapping into is very similar.

• 1:09:25Speaker 02

  Yeah. So that, actually, that third, that third phase, the, so the transfiguration's really about like the sacredness of fire, right? And the fire, having a strong sense of self. That gives us the ability to digest experience. And as that fire gets stronger, that's what gives us the ability to digest enough experience for the heart to open into the circle. And that's the place in the story where the heroes and the heroines come together and they they recognize each other. Because that that that fifth chapter, fifth person perspective, where you begin to really recognize your destiny.

• 1:10:09Speaker 02

  I actually can't recognize my destiny without you. Why is that? Because I need to be able to see, to see you and to see your destiny and to see your kind of the avatar that you're growing into, so to speak. The process is a mutual, it's a mutual process. Because really what's born, what you really begin to get, and we talked about this yesterday, at that fourth stage is you're like, hey, hang on a second, this is a me-We. Right? But that actually, the me, you begin to realize that your sense of individuality, that my

• 1:10:50Speaker 02

  sense of individuality somehow includes Andre and his mission and what he's here to do. And the other heroes and heroines in the, in the room, it's that actually we realize that somehow that we are within one another and that the sense of self is that that we've been operating from a kind of sense of self that's separate and suddenly the sense of self begins to become more of a we. Right? And so that, I think that story is really important because I think, I think many of us are recognizing that the necessity for the, for the we-me.

• 1:11:35André Duqum?

  That's gotta be a better name.

• 1:11:37Speaker 02

  I think it's a good name.

• 1:11:39André Duqum?

  The me-We.

• 1:11:40Speaker 02

  The me-We.

• 1:11:41André Duqum?

  Yeah. We don't exist in a vacuum. There's no such thing as a self-made matter, woman, and that. Our journey, our destiny can't not be amongst the greater collective.

• 1:11:52Speaker 02

  The self is relational. It like the self is a relational construct. And the fact that we haven't experienced it as such is because we were unconscious to that.

• 1:12:03André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:03Speaker 02

  So with that fourth phase in the journey, we're like, oh, wow. In order to actually perfect Andre, Andre needs a community, like he needs to be in a circle. Whatever that it's a mythic circle, right? It's the ancient future village circle that is somewhere in the past and also it's somewhere in the future.

• 1:12:25Speaker 02

  That helps that that fifth phase, because to the extent that I know what it is that you're trying to manifest, to extent that you know what it is that I'm trying to manifest and bring in, we are able to help one another. And of course, that then, you know, that then if we then move to that sixth phase of the journey. The sixth phase is related to a.

• 1:12:51Speaker 02

  So think of it this way. Every one of these stages, there's a, there's a level of ascending that allows you to simultaneously penetrate deeper. So to the extent in that fifth phase, if you will, that you're able to ascend and begin to recognize your archetypal dimension, like the hero that's wanting to be born. Then you're able to inform that into your personality structure. So there's a kind of like recognizing a soul form and then helping bringing that into your, into your sense of self. Does that make sense? It's a, so it's a, it's a higher and lower simultaneously.

• 1:13:36Speaker 02

  The next phase, that's that

• 1:13:40Speaker 02

  sixth phase. The

• 1:13:45Speaker 02

  the, the insight goes deeper. So let's just, at that fourth phase, we begin to experience a, a feel, a unitive field, a field of love, a field of deep interconnection, a field of interdependence, the field of Christ consciousness of the Bodhisattva, however you want to put it.

• 1:14:10Speaker 02

  As we then, as we then kind of mature and we start to individuate into that, at that fifth phase, we become this archetypal self, this avatar, and we're beginning to like press that into matter. At the sixth phase, we begin to, let's say, go even beyond the soul or the avatar self. And now you're beginning to clearly recognize your identity as clear light. So there's a difference between clear light and the unitary field. That's like the difference between love as a warm ocean and an ocean of light, of like pure clarity.

• 1:14:54Speaker 02

  And here, we're beginning to make a transition, if we were to use Western language, from soul into spirit, right? So spirit is now this, is what the Buddhists call clear light mind, right? It's like, and when sense of identity begins to include this clear light mind, that also does a number of things. It bakes the archetypal self deeper into the body mind. So the, the sense of self is becoming even stronger now, in a, in a good way, because that archetypal identity has now light shining through it. And, and it's becoming even deeper embodied.

• 1:15:39Speaker 02

  The body is beginning to become, the body is beginning to feel like, oh, maybe I am a superhero. And you'll, this is where you begin to have people who can do extraordinary things with their body, like, you know, extraordinary capacities with their physical body. That clarity of insight allows a much deeper penetration into the, the suffering or, or the, the trauma that's still stored in the body, particularly the trauma related to like the depth of, of emotion, like the depth of emotion and particularly like the depth of, the depth of fear.

• 1:16:23Speaker 02

  Because fear clearly is something that keeps everything contracted. So clear light mind is able to penetrate even deeper into the waters. And so there's now an even deeper level of transmutation of the emotional body by spirit.

• 1:16:46Speaker 02

  And that then just leaves like one more step. Unless you have, you have any questions about that?

• 1:16:55André Duqum?

  No, so the last step after that would be?

• 1:16:59Speaker 02

  Well, so essentially,

• 1:17:03Speaker 02

  the last step out of that is you come out of the light. So the thing about the clarity of that light is the clear light is so bright, it can,

• 1:17:20Speaker 02

  how would you describe that?

• 1:17:26Speaker 02

  It can, in some ways, it can blind you.

• 1:17:31Speaker 02

  It's like the cloud of unknowing. The light can blind you to the extent that all you see is spirit. And so this is where the, and often, of course, these are the teachers, because now we're getting up to, let's say, 10th, 11th grade of high school. So we're talking about mature souls. Not all of them are teachers, but generally, they will be, they'll probably be teaching because,

• 1:18:02Speaker 02

  you know, that's a gift. So there will be a tendency for an emphasis on the non-dual spirit, and that's it. Like just pure spirit. Because it's so bright that in some ways, some of the details of the world and the complexity of what's happening get lost in that. The last phase, if you will, it's like when you hit the crown, because there's an energetic journey here we're describing.

• 1:18:39Speaker 02

  Essentially, what happens is the realization, your realization becomes.

• 1:18:46Speaker 02

  Holographic, which means that rather than just pure spirit, you realize that you are the whole. So, Christian theology, that's called the logos. Like the word, you realize that you are the word, that you are the whole. And so, the whole world, you recognize that now the whole world is arising within you. And that includes both pure spirit and all of the realms, including the hellish realms as well. So it's like you come out of pure emptiness into form. And this is where they say in the heart, this is like the depth of the heart wisdom.

• 1:19:31Speaker 02

  As they say in the Heart Sutra, form is emptiness, emptiness is form. Or they would say, ketta is in malcut and malcut is in ketta. Pure spirit is in matter and matter is in pure spirit. And now, the quality is one of, let's say, complete wholeness. And of course, that doesn't mean the journey is ended. In fact, that's like the beginning of a whole, of a whole nother journey, if that makes sense. But clearly, you know, our planet, clearly we're in middle school on this planet.

• 1:20:09Speaker 02

  So that, that's how, yeah, that's how the heart mind kind of unfolds, if you will. And we can look at it energetically. Like that first phase, the first center, second phase, the second center, third phase, the third center, sense of strength. And then you get to the heart, right, where the circle is, so to speak. And then what happens is from that point, the next phases are, because the heart field is cohering your experience, as it goes higher to the throat, it goes lower to the solar plexus. So, archetypal dimension at the throat, sense of self.

• 1:20:54Speaker 02

  In the solar plexus, as it moves up and really opens clear light mind, it descends even deeper to the second chakra. And because the second chakra is particularly resonant with the astral plane, that's why there can be a tendency of being blinded, because the light here is reflected down and everything just becomes light. It's a... And the various traditions have name for that, like Zen sickness or it's just you're lost in the brightness. And then finally, the heart gets to the crown and then it gets to the root at the same time. And that's where you get the rooting and the flowering at the same time,

• 1:21:38Speaker 02

  which is then that that journey of like the heart opening itself up is kind of come to a completion.

• 1:21:49André Duqum?

  So what I think is really useful here is to see how they are all connected and that for the vast majority of us, we have a lot of work to do with like the lower center, so to speak, from attachment to attunement to the individualistic more or sovereignty, you know, center.

• 1:22:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's right.

• 1:22:11André Duqum?

  And then to the heart. And so I would love for you to sort of walk through like what is the foundation of all of this? Because I'm just as much as anybody love to talk about pure light consciousness and the recognition of that.

• 1:22:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, let's put that aside.

• 1:22:25André Duqum?

  But like, no, I think what really serves people and what is the pathway to get there is is these these lower centers.

• 1:22:34Speaker 02

  Well, so I think the first thing to recognize is really the work for all of us is and for the mass of the people who are listening is to get to that fourth phase. That is, the transition that's happening on this planet is a transition from the fire of the solar plexus to the heart. So that's like, we don't want to... What I often tell my students is actually overshooting is undershooting. Because if you overshoot, what's happening is probably you've stumbled into a class that wasn't meant for you. And that's, of course, we all have that tendency of wanting to get the highest teachings.

• 1:23:17Speaker 02

  But actually, the highest teachings don't help. Because what's really necessary is the teachings that are going to speak to you right now. So for the majority of the people who are listening, for all of us, what are needed? What are the teachings that are going to help us as individual heroes able to come together in that circle? And so what that means is, okay, what are the skills that we are meant to have learnt thus far, right? Through that first, second, and third phases of the journey? And how can we put that? How do we remind ourselves of what those are?

• 1:24:01Speaker 02

  So that we can then focus on learning the lesson that's right in front of us and knowing what that lesson is? Because you're right, there really are, well, three main... The journey through your sense of individual self is intimately related to the core psychological healing, right? And this is so important for all of us to understand. Because, think of it this way, and we'll get to it, but I want to put the context of why this is so important.

• 1:24:43Speaker 02

  We know from the research that was done by the TM folks, the Transcendental Meditation folks, right? Who, I think what they worked out was that square root, the square root of 1% of a population, if they are doing a meditative practice, in this case TM, were able to influence the field and bring down rates of violence and disruption in a city. However, of course, that doesn't last very long.

• 1:25:16Speaker 02

  Well, that's a shame. Why doesn't it last very long? Well, because what's happening is those contemplative practitioners are opening up higher states. And those higher states might pacify us, but actually, they don't relate to the actual transmutation and transformation that needs to happen in the population. And so it doesn't stick. So if we want to see a significant transformation on the planet, we have to understand what is the band to dial into, that if we expand on that band, it actually has something that can catch fire and actually burn.

• 1:26:01Speaker 02

  Because high up in those higher reaches of higher consciousness, there's nothing there. We actually need to transmute this trauma that we carry. So the actual, the meditative practices that are designed to transform and transmute those lower centers, the lower parts of the psyche, if you will, are actually, at this moment in time, more important than like the higher practices. Because if we get those right, the world actually changes. Yeah.

• 1:26:33André Duqum?

  I think the alluring thing, too, is that the more advanced meditation practices and whatnot are alluring in the sense it's like there's a sense of specialness around them.

• 1:26:43Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:26:43André Duqum?

  And a lot of the desire to calm the mind and do take up practices that would be supportive to like clearing out mental chatter. I would just love for you to speak to like largely we're fighting, we're going, it's an uphill battle if we haven't resolved our attachment system and our, you know, nervous system regulation.

• 1:27:06Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 1:27:06André Duqum?

  A lot of the things that we would struggle and strive for in different practices could be resolved.

• 1:27:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. So the first thing to understand is that

• 1:27:19Speaker 02

  We're at a unique moment in terms of the development of practices. Because every practice was designed in a specific moment in time for a specific population, based on what the designer of the practice, because these practices were designed, they didn't flow down with elephants on wings and appeared, they were designed by human beings. So most, well, nearly all of the contemplative systems that we know of were designed for a different time, if you will, with a different population in mind.

• 1:28:00Speaker 02

  Often, they were designed for the elite, or they were designed for people in monastic environments. And the thing about the monastic environment is, basically, it just leaves the lower centers alone. So let's not get into that, right? And so if you don't get into that, then you can start from that place and go up. However, all of our listeners, you, me included, we are doing this in the world, in relationship. And so we have to, there's a need to design practices that address the challenges that we're facing.

• 1:28:41André Duqum?

  Which are?

• 1:28:42Speaker 02

  Which are. Well, so as you're pointing to, so the deepest sources of suffering are related in humans to the dysfunction of our attachment system. This is like the earliest, early childhood injuries that are, most of the, are like inherited, so they're multi-generational. I mean, it's not our parents' fault, because they've inherited this kind of, this momentum of trauma. So.

• 1:29:17Speaker 02

  If we don't address those traumas, that's what's disturbing the mind. So either we have to address those, or we have to leave the world. Because if you leave the world, then they begin to quieten down. And since we can't do that, we have to do practices that directly work with that attachment system. So the fundamental function of the attachment system, the first thing is to give the infant a sense of security. Right? So to the extent that you and I don't feel,

• 1:30:00Speaker 02

  our listeners don't feel safe in the world, what happens then is the factory settings get turn on survival. And then it's very difficult to do anything creative because we're actually in a kind of fight-flight response. So the function of the attachment system is for the infant to be first physically held and supported by the caregivers. And so when you and I experience that being held, well, I mean, tell me, what does it feel like? When you actually, when somebody holds you, what do you notice happens in your nervous system?

• 1:30:45Speaker 04

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• 1:31:17André Duqum?

  When somebody holds me.

• 1:31:18Speaker 02

  Physically, when you're physically held.

• 1:31:20André Duqum?

  Uh huh.

• 1:31:21Speaker 02

  Other than pure terror.

• 1:31:24André Duqum?

  Pure fright, frightening.

• 1:31:27Speaker 02

  What do you notice happens in your body when you feel?

• 1:31:30André Duqum?

  Co-regulation.

• 1:31:31Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:31:32André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:32Speaker 02

  Yeah. So when we're, so literally in terms of matter, I literally being held gives the nervous system a sense of support that is internalized as a sense of trust.

• 1:31:47André Duqum?

  Peris sympathetic response, relax, chill out.

• 1:31:49Speaker 02

  Right, relax, chill out. Exactly, and.

• 1:31:56Speaker 02

  I mean, it's terrible to say, but when they've done experiments with baby monkeys and they've taken away like something for the baby monkey to hold on to, the baby monkey dies. And if they give the baby monkey a little like metal skeleton that looks like a mother and it can feel held, the baby monkey survives, which I mean, tells you a lot about who we are as human beings, that we do these kinds of things, but so there is a, there's a level in us that needs to be held and be met by matter itself, like, and by the, by matter

• 1:32:36Speaker 02

  from an esoteric perspective, by the mother, like, but literally by the archetypal mother that like, I got you.

• 1:32:44André Duqum?

  How much of the distracted mind that plagues so much of contemporary culture is directly?

• 1:32:49Speaker 02

  I think all of it, my, I think all of it. My, my sense is, is so much of what we call attentional deficit disorder is the effect of multi-generational trauma on the attentional system, because the attentional system, if it's not safe. Right, it's looking to see where there's a source of threat. And the truth is, is if that's happened for generations and generations, you might not necessarily have experienced anything threatening, but you've inherited the, you know,

• 1:33:31André Duqum?

  The lens.

• 1:33:32Speaker 02

  The lens, that's right. And so the body develops that and then you add the, the, the matrix dimension of the attention economy. Right, so now, if we were to, if we were to create a kind of a, a story, we would say that these devices are sucking our soul energy, right?

• 1:33:54André Duqum?

  Farming our attention.

• 1:33:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, and that actually, so

• 1:34:00Speaker 02

  the ancients would say that your attention is your atman. Your attention is your soul. So when you're actually doing this with your device, your soul energy is being fed into something. So it isn't just the attention economy. There's something else happening that is kind of pulling us, pulling us out of ourselves. So multi-generational trauma, scatteredness, so much of that comes from a lack of just matter itself, right? Being grounded. So that's, that is internalized as sense of support. We talked about this last time, then the, the next layer of that

• 1:34:46Speaker 02

  has got to do with attunement and attunement is a little different. Attunement has to do with,

• 1:34:54Speaker 02

  if you're holding, you know, if you're holding the infant and you're providing a sense of security and you're on your phone.

• 1:35:03Speaker 02

  What that means is the physical level of the infant is taken care of, but not the astral body, not the emotional body. So the emotional body of the infant wants to feel felt. It wants to feel mother, the matter, it wants to feel matter at the astral level, which is what it wants to feel that is loved by the parent.

• 1:35:27André Duqum?

  Would you not just say the emotional level? Would you just say the emotion, it's not felt at the emotional level?

• 1:35:33Speaker 02

  Not felt at the emotional level, exactly. So it might be felt physically, which is better than nothing, but the infant isn't experiencing themselves as feeling felt.

• 1:35:44André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:45Speaker 02

  Right, so if you had the vision, you would see the mother holding the child and you would see these little tendrils, these mycelial tendrils of tenderness extending from the mother's heart straight into the child's nervous system and just feeling and modulating the infant. Of course, when my attention has been stolen by my device, those tendrils aren't there. And so, to the degree that you and I received that, those pathways through me are pathways that now as an adult I can use to attune to my own nervous system.

• 1:36:30Speaker 02

  Right, so attuning to my own nervous system in such a way that you feel felt in a, in a deep way, which allows the, the whole sympathetic system to come down even more. Right, the more it comes down, the more the attentional system becomes more and more stable. In some ways, you can, you can look at these, related to these phases of the journey, like that first phase of the heart mind.

• 1:37:02Speaker 02

  Was related to the physical body and like learning how to physically manage your physical bodies so you felt physically safe in the world and grounded. That second phase of the heart mind as it moves into the emotional body. The fruition of that ideally is when you have mastered to some degree attunement. Because all of therapy, I mean, so much of the therapeutic process itself is learning to have enough capacity to feel what needs to be felt and to be able to stay with your experience. And then that leads us to the third quality, because both of those are young, those are pretty young qualities.

• 1:37:43Speaker 02

  If you think about the sense of self, it's young, but it's a little stronger, right? And so whatever injuries might have happened when we were young that stopped us from feeling a sense of industry, like a sense of capacity, you know, like little Andre running across the playground like woo, like that, you know what I mean? Like whatever stopped, whatever stopped that from happening and whatever suppressed your fire so that then as you grow into an adult, it's difficult for you to be as full of an adult as you want to be.

• 1:38:26Speaker 02

  So I think of that as like the, the fire of desire in a, but not the fire of desire that distracts us. It's the fire of, of interest and the fire of curiosity. It's the innate kind of fire of passion of, of a child that is excited and curious about the world. And also, it's also partly due to the child, a little bit older, seeing that mum and dad has, feels passionately about them, and passionately, passionately about protecting them.

• 1:39:09Speaker 02

  So if you feel that somebody is like protecting you, you know, you're five, six years old and your dad is like, hang on a second, that kind of quality of like, oh wow, boundaries, I'm, I'm worth protecting? When you, when that's internalized, it's internalized as a sense of sovereignty. Which is really, like, that third phase is about sovereignty. Right? Like, being a sovereign sense of self, that it's okay to be full and whoever you are as a sense of self. So those, like, those three qualities, the, the sense of stability that is internalized as safety,

• 1:39:53Speaker 02

  the capacity for feeling felt that is internalized as kind of self-regulation, and then the, the feeling of being like fiercely valued and protected, that's internalized as sovereignty. When those three are internalized, then the heart opens naturally, because it's kind of fulfilled the lessons that it's needed to fulfill, that it's not... It can open itself up, and at the same time feel safe and attuned and protected in a world that is, um, you know, that, that is a... You can't be, you can't be too naive, right?

• 1:40:38Speaker 02

  You can't, as you said, you can't just open your heart and, um, and think that everything is necessarily gonna go okay. You have to bring all of those skillsets that you have learnt through those other journey, through those other parts of the journey. Otherwise, if you open your heart prematurely, well, what do you, what's your sense of what happens when people do that?

• 1:41:04André Duqum?

  I like to look at the analogy of nature and think of a tree who's started to sprout, grow into a sapling and develop a trunk and start to build branches and has a sense of self.

• 1:41:17Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:41:18André Duqum?

  And has yet to bear fruit fully, you know, which you could say maybe is more in the heart space.

• 1:41:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:41:24André Duqum?

  So I think there is an appreciation of the developmental process. And even though you refer to these earlier centers, like attachment and attunement as sort of earlier stages of development, which they are, in a society where things are drastically underdeveloped, they seem like superpowers just to be regulated.

• 1:41:42Speaker 02

  You're absolutely right.

• 1:41:43André Duqum?

  And also to walk into spaces and to be able to be attuned to other people's emotional landscape because you're not so preoccupied with your own neuroses in a sense. And that seems like, and you know, it feels like a superpower when it's, when it's not, it's not so prevalent.

• 1:42:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's right.

• 1:42:05André Duqum?

  But yeah, we were speaking to this also earlier, yes, yesterday, I think, just how these higher understandings or practices to be put on somebody who hasn't developed to a relative degree these first three centuries is not gonna, it can be cruel in a sense.

• 1:42:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's so, yes, I mean, that's why I spent, so my own journey was kind of recognizing this maybe 30 years ago and then asking myself, okay, we need to redesign these contemplative practices so that the highest practice simultaneously addresses the lowest. So the, so the way that I described it is actually like the taking care of the root. When you take care of the root, you actually take care of the crown because they're actually in resonance with one another. When you take care of, of the deepest sense of security, actually, the psyche is willing to open itself up completely.

• 1:43:08André Duqum?

  Just like if you look at a fruit tree and you see it's bearing sour apples or the leaves are, are weird color, it's actually not an issue of the leaf or the apple, it's of the root.

• 1:43:19Speaker 02

  The root.

• 1:43:19André Duqum?

  The root and the fruit.

• 1:43:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's right.

• 1:43:21André Duqum?

  Yeah, connected.

• 1:43:22Speaker 02

  So.

• 1:43:25Speaker 02

  So we can redesign contemplative practices so that we can open up, they can be redesigned harmonically, which means an appreciation that the, that as you simultaneously develop a sense of safety and attunement, it can release those deeper parts of the psyche that have been caught there. And because the youngest parts, because the subtlest parts are caught in the youngest parts of the psyche, if we take care of that, actually what happens is the,

• 1:44:10Speaker 02

  like the highest parts begin to open up. So that, I mean, it's not, I'm not the only person who's been looking at this by any means, but this understanding of redesigning contemplative practices, you know, in such a way that the psychodynamic piece is integrated into the wisdom piece. I think that's the, the next cycle of love wisdom, which is really, which is like, oh, yes, of course, that actually if love really penetrates deep, deep into the infant,

• 1:44:54Speaker 02

  then of course the highest is released. And so in some ways, I think what we're discovering here or rediscovering is like the, it is like the essence of all of those traditions. There's always a few in, you know, great mystics, the Rumi's or the Longchampers and the Zogchen tradition or the Christ or the Buddha. But understanding like, well, how do we democracy, how do we make that accessible to everybody? And I think part of that is related to this understanding of these early childhood dynamics and their relationship with the deepest parts of our soul.

• 1:45:36Speaker 02

  I like to say sometimes to my students that I think Jesus was the Christ because his parents knew that he was.

• 1:45:44Speaker 02

  Right, so to the extent that that child is recognized to be holy, so to the extent that we recognize that infant consciousness, and we tend to those deepest, most tender parts of the soul, things open up in a supernatural way. And then the blossoming process, the flowering process, as the one that I described, happens as a kind of, it happens as a natural unfolding, rather than having to change gears in a car.

• 1:46:22Speaker 04

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• 1:46:56André Duqum?

  I think as you like, have experiences related to more of the higher centers, you also see the, that like, love is a sort of intelligent field that you're returning to, that like, kind of exists and unites the whole. And so it is both, it feels like the developmental process, both a building up and also like a returning to. And now that we've, we've sort of, you know, we've gone through the seven stages and an emphasis on the lower three to build into the higher four. We were speaking to this piece on integrity,

• 1:47:41André Duqum?

  because I think as you wake up to...

• 1:47:45André Duqum?

  Your own unique gifts, your own contribution to the collective. There's like different levels of perceiving what integrity means. What does it mean to move through the world from a state of integrity? Which integritas, like the etymology of the word, means undivided, a sense of wholeness.

• 1:48:06André Duqum?

  And that's something that I think has been a big theme and desire in my life. And is important to reflect on. So.

• 1:48:15Speaker 02

  How would you describe the feeling of it? How do you know when you're in integrity?

• 1:48:21André Duqum?

  So this is actually, and thanks, by the way, for looking at a piece I started writing and sharing me some of yours as well. It's been great to kind of go back and forth.

• 1:48:34André Duqum?

  But there's, there's, like many things, you can look at it from many perspectives. And on the surface, integrity looks like having alignment between your words and actions. So you do what you say and you say what you do. And you keep commitments. And that's a monumental step in a world of individuals who don't do that. Right? So that's definitely a level of it.

• 1:49:04André Duqum?

  The subtler exploration of integrity is to pay attention cleanly to not just actions, but the motivations that those actions spring forth from. And so the thoughts and emotions and desires that are driving actions are also a form of action. They're just more subtle and less perceivable from the outside in. So even though you sit there and you look like, yeah, you're nodding at me, you could be thinking and feeling all sorts of things.

• 1:49:32Speaker 02

  The hell is he talking about? I know, I've never experienced that.

• 1:49:40André Duqum?

  And, and so for me, like integrity, to answer your question directly, is the feeling of undividedness, of a feeling of wholeness in self, where I'm moving through the world. And not only am I not acting in a way that has prejudice, has prejudice towards others, I'm also not feeling or thinking in a way that has prejudice towards others.

• 1:50:00Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:50:01André Duqum?

  There's a sense of transparency, you know?

• 1:50:03Speaker 02

  Yes, yeah, so.

• 1:50:07Speaker 02

  I think the first thing is, is if we recognize that, you know, within us, we have, we have all these levels of development, right? We have, we have the animal, we have the, the kind of the, the child, we have, we have all the levels of development that are out there in the world within us. So the first thing, integrity has to do with the fact that you have a, a line of communication all the way through, right? So that means that there's, that all, that all of the parts of you, all of the levels of development are welcomed and embraced in, in a radical wholeness.

• 1:50:48Speaker 02

  Like, there's a sense of wholeness because you have been willing to feel and know all of the different parts of you. So, for instance, you know, the part of you, as we said, like, that has a sense of destiny, the part of you that is sensitive and wants to be, you know, part of a larger whole, the part of you that is ambitious and has drive, right? And wants to, um, to make something of himself, the part of you, the, the part of me that wants pleasure and wants to feel good, the part of me that wants to feel secure, like, so the whole stack, right? The whole, all of the levels. So first, there's, there's, there's that kind of integrity, which I think is, that's

• 1:51:32Speaker 02

  the, like, our psychological integrity. And for sure, there's also a kind of physiological dimension of that, because I think it's difficult to have that and kind of, like, walk through the world. Like, there's a sense I have that integrity has a relationship to architecture and structure, that there's actually, there's actually structure that is able to handle.

• 1:52:01Speaker 02

  Pressure, right?

• 1:52:02André Duqum?

  Yeah, you see, you look at a system or a building that was architected well, you would say it has integrity.

• 1:52:06Speaker 02

  It has integrity, right? So the personality structure has integrity and the anatomical structure has integrity. And all the ancients said that there's some relationship between the two. Not exactly the same, meaning you could have back issues and be have super psychological integrity. But to the extent that the training in Hata yoga is really a training in like how to hold, how to have integrity. So that's, that's what you alluded to is like the radical wholeness to the whole of your interior, your interior family.

• 1:52:47Speaker 02

  And that you're not, I'm not surprised by any one particular part. It doesn't matter if I feel, if there's, if I feel anxiety, if I recognize that I'm anxious, then I, then I won't be motivated by the, by anxiety, right? So, but there's a degree of transparency with, with your experience. I think that, you know, the, I like to look at this model of, of beauty, truth and goodness. So the first, the interior piece, I think, has got to do with beauty and perspective. So that you have integrity in your perspective.

• 1:53:29Speaker 02

  You have integrity in, in the, in how you see the world. There's also the relationship with, that can't be, that can't have, that in order to be fully, to full integrity, there also has to be a integrity with culture. Meaning.

• 1:53:53Speaker 02

  We have to be able and willing to see all of the levels of development within culture and be able to see them in a non-reactive way, understanding where people are at without being pulled by it, so that we could actually have our sense of radical wholeness with what's happening with the world and therefore actually respond in an appropriate way. And I think the third part of integrity has to do with like a kind of evolutionary integrity, which is what we kind of started with, which is

• 1:54:37Speaker 02

  if you and I are part of this larger planetary system and that planetary system is going through a transformative phase,

• 1:54:50Speaker 02

  your alignment, my alignment with

• 1:54:55Speaker 02

  that is the deepest form of aligning with gravity.

• 1:55:02Speaker 02

  To really have integrity with your anatomy, you have to be able to like let go so that you can actually be upright. But to let go physically means you actually have to recognize that there's a force that's coming through you and taking you into the ground.

• 1:55:20Speaker 02

  That force, which is, you know, we call it gravity, but from a psychological force, you could almost say that it is like love pulling you into matter. There is a comparable dimension to that, which is the planet itself, as I said, is doing something right now, and are we aligned with that? If you and I are aligned with the fact that we recognize that this planet, that humanity is going to be going through a significant shift, if we recognize that part of what's happening here is the fruition of fire, and can fire come to the heart? So to the extent that I recognize that I'm part of a cohort

• 1:56:05Speaker 02

  of millions of other souls who are also doing that, and that my heart is aware of that in a horizontal way.

• 1:56:17Speaker 02

  So paradoxically, and this comes back to the crucifixion metaphor, that actually integrity has to do with a horizontal degree of embrace of your brothers and your sisters and a vertical degree of release into like what's happening in sacred world, like arms wide and verticality. And when you get both of those two, like the sense of like sacred verticality and horizontal and the ability to maintain both, I think that that's then, that's some, that's some strong, that's some strong integrity. Yeah.

• 1:56:59André Duqum?

  Yeah, that, that relationship as you move through the world from that state of integrity, I think is, is a really interesting piece there because like now as we go on our journey and we're revealing what our own Dharma is, so to speak, the unique puzzle piece that we are to, to this universe, you get to meet relationships and opportunities and challenges fruitfully, like with a sense of, with this, with that sense of integrity. What, what do you think is important to remind people there in the discovery of their own Dharma? Like, how, how do you feel like that really comes online and becomes clear for people?

• 1:57:46Speaker 02

  So let me just see if I understand this. What you're suggesting, what, what you're pointing to is it's a deep, a deeper level of integrity helps you, helps you discover your, your Dharma because it's kind of hardwired, hardwired into you.

• 1:58:04André Duqum?

  Well, you spoke, one aspect of, of integrity is alignment, right?

• 1:58:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:58:07André Duqum?

  So like alignment with self and alignment into a proper relationship with the world then puts you perfectly in the position to, to be here to do what you're supposed to be doing in a sense.

• 1:58:19Speaker 02

  So Dharma, so Dharma, you know, the word Dharma means, means duty. So one has to have that sense of good sense of attachment and attunement. Like Dharma really is connected to this third, this third phase, if you will, of

• 1:58:42Speaker 02

  Like strength of self to duty. I mean, that sounds terribly old fashioned, right? But actually, well, it is old fashioned because Dharma comes from that level of us that is related to the knights of the round table, that is related to virtue, that is related to being willing to sacrifice for something higher. So I do think that there's part of discovering that has to do with the necessary part of training the mind.

• 1:59:24Speaker 02

  Because in order to get in contact, let's say, let's say the Dharma has resided in your heart. It's something that you that is deep in your heart. In order for you and I to access that, we're going to have to be able to access the heart. So which which means that the childhood sense of safety and security, a sense of attunement needs to be there. But really, what we're talking about here is a sense of strength and a willingness to sacrifice the self to recognize something that is deeper. So the sense of integrity, I think, is related to sacrifice. It's related to the willingness to perhaps even suffer

• 2:00:08Speaker 02

  for what your art is. I mean, the truth is, is that any of us who have a sense of our Dharma, there is some degree of suffering, if you will, necessary to to bring it forth. Right? Even if that suffering is like, is having to go to school or having to, right? So that there is some friction that needs to that needs to happen. So it needs, um, Dharma needs a strong sense of self in order to be able to, in order to be able to carry it. Does that, does that speak to what you're asking me?

• 2:00:52André Duqum?

  Kind of, yeah, I think. What I'm interested here maybe, um,

• 2:01:02André Duqum?

  You spoke to a little bit how intuition and imagination work together to sort of illuminate the path forward. So as somebody grows on their own path, I'm curious about how you think those two work together to sort of illuminate what one feels is going to be best, you know, use of their time and energy.

• 2:01:21Speaker 02

  How intuition and imagination.

• 2:01:22André Duqum?

  Yeah, how they work together.

• 2:01:23Speaker 02

  Okay, okay. As a way of revealing Dharma.

• 2:01:29André Duqum?

  There's something that comes up there?

• 2:01:30Speaker 02

  That's a great question. If our intuition, what we're saying is it's a, I mean, there's lower kind of hunches, but what we're talking about here is heartfelt, our heartfelt intuition. So to the extent that we are realizing that we're in a time of transition and that our care for the world, that this is going to be a transformation of the heart, that it's

• 2:02:07Speaker 02

  about the technologies of love, the technologies of resonance, or it goes the other way. But to the extent, to the extent that you allow your intuition into your imagination. So what does that mean? It does mean that we have to be able to imagine that world that our hearts know is good and true and beautiful. It's really important for all of us, for

• 2:02:44Speaker 02

  our listeners, to particularly at this time, to take time to imagine what the flowering might look like. Because it's the imagination.

• 2:03:03Speaker 02

  Of the world is how we imagine the world to be. That's really what filters down into the physical world. So the first thing is we have to get us up. We have to imagine what that future looks like. And also have a sense and imagine like, what's your, what's your role in that world? Right?

• 2:03:27Speaker 02

  There's another way of thinking about this and just play with me a little bit on this. But let's say at night we fall asleep. And we leave our bodies and that world that we know is true and beautiful. We're actually already, that civilization already exists. The problem is, as all the great sages have said, is the amnesia. That when we come back, we're not able to remember. And so many of the initiatory systems are about remembering.

• 2:04:03Speaker 02

  The traditions say that we're, we're externalizing that world. We're trying to birth that world into matter. So even if that isn't true, the thing is about the imagination is what your brain imagines to be real. It kind of, it experiences as real. So if we take the idea that actually that all of our listeners at night we fall asleep and you're already in that world. And it's, and it's working the way it's meant to work. And you have a particular function and a particular gift that you're giving in that, in that ancient future village, you're already doing it. And then you come back to this world and you forget. You're like, I don't know what the hell I'm meant to be doing.

• 2:04:49Speaker 02

  To the extent, so the thing about love, what the traditions say is love has the capacity to feel through the realms. So what the traditions say is particularly the wheel of time tradition says, it's your love for that future, which is also already here. That helps you begin to, it begins to inform your imagination. Because allowing yourself to imagine what this world could be in 20 or 30 or 40 years' time. But a world that is actually beautiful. And a world that you have an important place in, in terms of what it is you're doing.

• 2:05:33Speaker 02

  You have, because the self, and we mentioned this earlier, the self is relational. What that means is, your self is always in a world. The self is linked to a world. It's what they call in the Buddhist tradition, nama rupa, meaning you've constructed a world and a self at the same time.

• 2:06:01Speaker 02

  Does that make sense? Like, you actually can't separate. Your sense of self isn't separate from the world that you, the story that you tell yourself about the world is out there. So, so listeners, as you're reflecting on the world out there, it constellates the self. And that's who you are right now. It's who we are right now. So if we want to make a change,

• 2:06:27Speaker 02

  if we want to change the self, but we also want to change the world, those two are linked. What that means is, whatever self is in that world is a difference. It's a different self. It's changed, it's transformed. So to the extent that you actually, and this is what they call in Tantra, this is called taking the fruit as the path. Taking the fruit means is, to the extent that you allow yourself to imagine based on a world, not, so this is not like your personal desire, right? This is based on the desire of the heart. So to the extent that you desire to live in a university planet,

• 2:07:10Speaker 02

  a garden oasis of truth and beauty and goodness, sounds naive, but you know what? We're actually, like, it's either gonna be that or ash. So let's, it's either gonna go one way or the other way. So let's like, so to the extent it goes the way that we want it to go, dial in to the extent you allow yourself to imagine what that world looks like, what it feels like, what the relationships feels like, what the financial system is, to the extent that you begin to allow your imagination, which in the traditions, the imagination is an organ of perception, to the extent that you begin to imagine that future world.

• 2:07:54Speaker 02

  And what they say on the Wheel of Time is actually that future world is the world that you go to when you fall asleep at night anyway. So what's in the future is also what's within. As you begin to allow yourself to imagine the seat that you have, the circle that you're in, the qualities of relationship that we have, that will then begin to help you kind of imagine this, this self will have a little bit more of a sense of who you imagine yourself to be. And because that's actually connected to sacred world, because when you align with that dream, that's the dream that you have, it's the dream that I have, it's the dream

• 2:08:38Speaker 02

  that Chelsea has, it's the dream that probably every other person who's listening to this has that dream if they let themselves dream it. Not only is it our dream, it's also the planet's dream. So to the extent that we allow ourselves to take the dreaming seriously, then the qualities begin to come, right? Then the intuition begins to work and then it engages that synchronic process and begins to draw circumstances to you. And to the extent that you're like, that you, that you realize, quite honestly, that your Dharma is worth dying for.

• 2:09:21Speaker 02

  Because the, because the transition to, to realize your Dharma, all of us, like, when you were a child, you had to die from being a child and become an adolescent, right? And when you're an adolescent, you had to die to become an adult. So clearly, what all the traditions say is there's a death process here. The question is, is it like, is it a conscious dying process in a good way? Where we, we lock on to something that's good and true and beautiful and we are willing and we feel the energy and the commitment to sacrifice for something? Do we have that sense of duty? Because we all have, right? We all have a sense of duty, that sense of virtue.

• 2:10:06Speaker 02

  And to the extent that you and I are aligned with it, then Dharma comes and slowly but surely you kind of, you know, we, we awaken in a new world with a, with a...

• 2:10:20Speaker 02

  With a sense of duty that's embodied and good.

• 2:10:26Speaker 02

  That's how the, that's how the, like, how, that's how the Tibetan tradition in some ways points to the magic of how, how that happens.

• 2:10:39André Duqum?

  Yeah, it seems like whether it's projections that we have or desires for what we want the world to see or feel into a more beautiful world, or that version for our own individual lives, the hanging out in, in the imaginal realm to kind of feel what it feels like and sense what it would be like. And like, our, our neurology doesn't necessarily know the difference between something we experience and something we imagine.

• 2:11:08Speaker 02

  It doesn't know the difference. And so what's interesting with the AI, this is where, if we think about some of this tech as it's going to reveal our imaginations to us in a very concrete way. And, and you're right, the brain doesn't know the difference between what we imagine to be real or what is real. So we're going to be given, it's, it's coming, a technology to the extent where we can probably, whatever we imagine, we're going to be able to some extent make real. So the question is, is like, are we, are we, are our imaginations aligned with like, beauty, truth and goodness? Because

• 2:11:51Speaker 02

  that, I think that's the, that's the judgment. It's like, can we imagine something that is, that is beautiful and good and true? I think we can do that if we feel safe, you know, if we, if we are, if we feel attuned to, if we have a sense of sovereignty and we have a sense of connection, then of course, we can create something that's beautiful.

• 2:12:20Speaker 02

  On the other hand, if we don't, then I thought, you know, we, we see so much of

• 2:12:26Speaker 02

  We see so much of that kind of apocalyptic imagery in the collective conscious. You know, it's interesting because we see that in the movies. We don't see a lot of what's possible or what's, what could be beautiful. I mean, when I think of like movies, like the only, it's only maybe in like Marvel with Wakanda that you get a sense of like, well, what could be something that was high tech? And included these previous levels of development. We don't have a lot of that. And so we all need to, we all need to be willing to imagine it together.

• 2:13:09André Duqum?

  Seems like it really comes to be through, well, one conversation. Like we talk about it, what does it feel like? What is it like? Cause our, your vision of a more beautiful world is probably slightly different, although overlapping in many different ways than my own, right? And in talking about it, and I think that's why it's so, community is so important also. It's because we kind of fill in the gaps.

• 2:13:34Speaker 02

  Two, two things that come to mind. One is a fellow teacher of mine who, he's been doing some of this envisioning work with some of his core students separately, and then they come back together. And of course they're surprised as to how much they're beginning to agree on these pieces. And I've also seen, I saw a piece of work just recently where a colleague, Skylar and Ari came back from the Netherlands where they, where essentially what they had done was interview a whole

• 2:14:12Speaker 02

  community of people about what they envisioned together. And then kind of took all of that, processed it, and then generated an AI movie so that they could all begin to see and share together in that dream. So I think you're right, like.

• 2:14:31Speaker 02

  We have to, you know, we have to communicate with one another. We have to share with one another. One of the things I like to say to my students is, is communion, communication,

• 2:14:45Speaker 02

  community, comments. Like that.

• 2:14:51Speaker 02

  We need to have a sense, we need to have an experience of that communion.

• 2:14:57Speaker 02

  We then need to learn to be able to stay in that field of communion and start sharing it with one another. Because I think one thing that's happened in our culture is because we don't, because the commons of our culture doesn't have a discourse around the sacred or around like very deep, like there's not much, there aren't spaces to go where people can share the kind of the deep interior experiences they've had of the sacred. So because we don't communicate with one another,

• 2:15:41Speaker 02

  we don't know the jewels that each of us are holding. So again, this comes back to that, the importance of that that fourth phase where the heroes tied after a certain chapter are able to come together and start to communicate and share what it is that we're all seeing. I think that that's the opportunity, that there's a technological opportunity to be able to do that.

• 2:16:17Speaker 02

  It's, in some ways, actually, I think that's, that's our, that's part of our duty. Right? Our duty right now and for our listeners is recognize we've all been on that heroic individualistic phase. And there's a need for us to be able to come together and begin to share and communicate what it is that we're seeing.

• 2:16:44Speaker 02

  Because I think the world's gonna get kind of, kind of interesting.

• 2:16:50André Duqum?

  It already is, more and more by the day.

• 2:16:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:16:54André Duqum?

  What do you think with the context of this whole prior conversation would be important

• 2:17:00André Duqum?

  that we haven't already? Is there something that comes to mind that feels pertinent?

• 2:17:05Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 2:17:05André Duqum?

  Jean?

• 2:17:06Speaker 02

  Jean.

• 2:17:09Speaker 02

  I think the one thing that is pertinent is that, and just important, is that every, every listener here recognizes

• 2:17:23Speaker 02

  that they're part of

• 2:17:27Speaker 02

  a larger cohort, that they're not alone.

• 2:17:31Speaker 02

  Right? And that when you're not alone, wherever you are right now as you're listening to this,

• 2:17:38Speaker 02

  that whilst you might be alone physically, just be open to the fact and the truth that there are hundreds and thousands and millions of other souls on this planet right now that, that love you, that love, that see the world, that wants to be born.

• 2:17:58Speaker 02

  And that you can, we can rely upon that as a source of strength in these coming, in these coming years. I think that that's, we're not alone. It's the sense of separation that is, that is the, um,

• 2:18:16Speaker 02

  that makes it so difficult.

• 2:18:20André Duqum?

  And hopefully,

• 2:18:23André Duqum?

  as the physical spaces start to become more prevalent, you know, where people can come and have those shared values and realizations and insight, be among community, these digital spaces can...

• 2:18:37André Duqum?

  Be the the the version of that that kind of carries us and and starts to connect us with the tribe that I think is going to be really supportive. And that's what I strive for this channel to be. And I think, you know, more and more, as you're sharing your work online,

• 2:18:53André Duqum?

  what a gift it is to be able to live in a time where we have the capacity to be able to reach people from all walks of life on the other side of the planet.

• 2:18:59Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 2:19:00André Duqum?

  And that is unique to this generation and civilization unlike any other time. So.

• 2:19:06Speaker 02

  Well, and the and the community, the community of people who right now are listening to this, whilst it might be virtual. Virtual doesn't mean that the quality of relationship, that there is a field here. So when people, when people view your, when people view your podcast, what I would say is, is that

• 2:19:31Speaker 02

  you're, you are viewing a node, a room, but there are thousands and thousands of other souls, like there with you. So don't.

• 2:19:43Speaker 02

  Having, when we passed through COVID, we had to shift on my teaching. So much of my teaching went online.

• 2:19:50Speaker 02

  And one of the things I realized then was that there is a, we have this enchantment of disenchantment. What I mean by that is, is the people, as our friends are watching us right now, they think that there's like, that they're just watching a screen. And that there's no connection.

• 2:20:12Speaker 02

  So the first thing is, we have to dispel that enchantment and disenchantment. So that whenever people, when people take time to, to like, watch what's happening in here, that they are also realizing that they're tapping into a subtle dimension. And that there is, that this is a, that you're, know thyself as a node, if you will, that they, that they, yes, they're watching something, but they can also feel that there's something here. Because that's, that structure is real. Like the virtual, the virtual, if you will, is a way that we give form to a quality of the invisible. So.

• 2:20:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, you have a real community here and no doubt as it continues to build, it's gonna precipitate more and more into actual gatherings, you know, but real events.

• 2:21:11André Duqum?

  Yeah, no, it's happening and I'm very excited for it because no doubt you can feel connected to a community. I certainly do. I know by virtue of the comments, people feel very connected to not only the ideas that are being talked about on the podcast, but the tribe that's all tuning into it as well.

• 2:21:37André Duqum?

  I'm excited for it to be translated also to more in-person stuff. If people want to get connected to the nodes you're putting out there and the offerings that you have, we'll leave links down in the description where people can stay connected with you and your work. But what's the most, yeah.

• 2:21:54Speaker 02

  What's coming up? So, you know, we offer a, well, the first thing is that we have a New Year Retreat. That's called Embodding the Open Ground. And that retreat, I think that's the second to the fourth of January 2026. The Open Ground work is the synthesis of the non-dual with the deep attachment healing. So that is one of the cycles of teaching that we teach. It's super accessible and it works with healing those attachment,

• 2:22:34Speaker 02

  those attachment injuries and opening up the kind of the non-dual love wisdom mind simultaneously. So that's a real, that's super accessible and people really, really enjoy that. We have a two-year program, so that begins every fall. So next fall, we have the Seda cohort. We've had Aspern and a Banyan. And so we have the Seda cohort and that begins in the fall of next year, the fall of 2026. And that's a Bodhisattva, a planetary Bodhisattva training. So essentially, within the kind of the trade, within the context of the Bodhisattva tradition of Christ consciousness,

• 2:23:16Speaker 02

  it's really a training for those who are engaged in or interested in what does that kind, what does that path look like in the 21st century?

• 2:23:28Speaker 02

  So that's in the fall and we have an intro. So if you're interested in that, then there's an intro in April. It's like a weekend, 24th to the 26th of next year, of 2026. So we have the open retreat, open ground. There's an intro and then we have the full kind of two year curriculum. And folks can go to the website, www. Do people still say that?

• 2:23:59André Duqum?

  Just you.

• 2:24:00Speaker 02

  Just me?

• 2:24:02Speaker 02

  Planetarydharma.com. And they can find out more information there.

• 2:24:07André Duqum?

  Sweet.

• 2:24:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:24:08André Duqum?

  We'll leave links down below. I know some people from our last conversation attended and your work and we're definitely positively impacted. So happy to support. And yeah, man, thank you. It's been a pleasure to continue to dive in and be in conversation together and

• 2:24:25Speaker 02

  My pleasure.

• 2:24:26André Duqum?

  Bust out the whiteboard and talk about planetary transformation. Let both of our nerdy little boys come out. It's great.

• 2:24:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, thank you. And I'd love to just, I'd love to, we were going to record a meditation later and we'll just leave that as a gift. So the folks can access that on the

• 2:24:43André Duqum?

  On the clips channel.

• 2:24:43Speaker 02

  Channel.

• 2:24:44André Duqum?

  Yeah, yeah, we can definitely do that.

• 2:24:46Speaker 02

  Great.

• 2:24:47André Duqum?

  Thank you, man.

• 2:24:47Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 2:24:48André Duqum?

  Yeah, yeah, for anybody who wants to listen to that guided meditation process. We'll just leave a link down in the description to view that on YouTube and go from there. Thank you. Thank you, everybody for tuning in.

• 2:24:59Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 2:24:59André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 2:25:00Speaker 02

  Chelsea, thank you.

• 2:25:02André Duqum?

  Till next time, be well and

• 2:25:04Speaker 02

  Know thyself.

• 2:25:06André Duqum?

  Thank you, bro. Did it.

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