E161 - Pete Holmes: Life is a Cosmic Joke - Finding God, Wonder & Freedom in the Unknown

Comedian and spiritual seeker Pete Holmes joins us for a conversation that weaves together humor, mysticism, and the search for truth. Pete opens up about his journey from growing up in a fundamentalist Christian household to having life-altering psychedelic experiences that redefined his understanding of God and religion. Together, they explore what it means to move beyond belief into direct experience, why we can never truly be separate from the divine, and how comedy can serve as both healing and revelation. Try Pique Life tea and save 20% for life & get a free frother: https://www.piquelife.com/KnowThyself Start your free trial with Wix: https://bit.ly/3SXG2qK Andrés Book Recs: https://www.knowthyselfpodcast.com/book-list ___________ 0:00 Intro 2:46 Asking the Deeper Questions in Life 6:27 From Fundamentalist Christian to Psychedelic Experience 11:29 Reinterpreting Religion through the Lens of the Mystical 17:10 The Prodigal Son: Reclaiming Our Birthright 22:02 Go From Belief to Direct Experience 26:50 His Experience on the George Janko Podcast 28:41 Ad: PiqueLife 30:05 How His Understanding of God Has Changed 34:45 Mental Exercise for Experience the “I am” 40:36 We Can Never Be Separate from God 45:10 Existential Comedy & Wondering at Life’s Mysteries 55:28 Ad: Wix 56:30 Balancing Being Spiritual & Being Human 1:00:05 Lessons from Psychedelic Experiences 1:07:12 The Power & Responsibility of Comedy 1:18:27 Are Comedians Traumatized? 1:23:03 Future of Comedy in a Changing World 1:32:40 Conclusion ___________ Episode Resources: https://www.instagram.com/peteholmes/ https://www.youtube.com/@peteholmes https://www.instagram.com/andreduqum/ https://www.instagram.com/knowthyself/ https://www.youtube.com/@knowthyselfpodcast https://www.knowthyselfpodcast.com

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 1:00Speaker 01

  Spirituality will never not be compelling to me because it's asking, what doesn't change? What is consistent? It's your knowing. What makes being a comedian so wonderful? You're supposed to say the unsayable. I think one of the things we're doing with art, with conversation, with everything, is recognizing that we are in this really strange situation.

• 1:18André Duqum?

  We do really lack perspective.

• 1:19Speaker 01

  Well, that goes back to what is this?

• 1:22André Duqum?

  How would you articulate your evolution of understanding God?

• 1:25Speaker 01

  I was a fundamentalist Christian. But what happened was, I had an experience. What I like to say now is, I believe in God, but I don't think God exists. The idea of God somewhere else, something else that you can find is absurd. There's nothing missing here. That's the good news. It's all right here. There was nowhere to go. You can't become what you already are. And that's step one. Then step two is to investigate the nature of that knowing. And when you explore your own nature, you don't need to be tripping for it to be remarkable.

• 2:01André Duqum?

  Hey everyone, welcome back to the Know thyself podcast. Our guest today is a stand-up comedian, an author, a writer, a speaker, a podcaster. He is somebody that is known for his wit and his charm online as a comedian for many, many years, but underneath the laughter is a seeker that is really profound. He is an abundance of both humor and wisdom, and I love how palatable he makes exploring the existential questions of life and what it means to be human. Pete Holmes, thanks for being here, man.

• 2:31Speaker 01

  Thank you. What a nice intro.

• 2:33André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 2:33Speaker 01

  It was off the dome?

• 2:35André Duqum?

  Yes.

• 2:35Speaker 01

  Nice job. I'm looking for a prompter. That was really well done. Thanks for having me. I told you, Andre, that I saw, well, when you reached out, I was very excited because I watched Rupert Spira on this podcast, and I already told you off mic. I think you did a really great job, so I am very happy to be here.

• 2:53André Duqum?

  Thanks. That means a lot, coming from somebody who loves Rupert Spira.

• 2:57Speaker 01

  Well, yeah. Yeah, no, a compliment from someone who is really into Rupert, because we're watching with a different lens. We're like, please get, nudge him into the good stuff, and he really did. He always has the good stuff, but you know what I mean.

• 3:11André Duqum?

  Of course, yeah. Man, it's, I've been looking forward to having this conversation, because I think I've just seen snippets, and you see it come in and out, both through your stand-up, through your podcast, through appearances on other shows. You have a great way of articulating the ridiculousness of the human experience, and infusing nondual wisdom, and so much throughout it. And I think a good place to start would just be asking, like, when or what sparked your first kind of interest and curiosity into really contemplating the human experience deeper? Because I think for the vast majority of the human population, that is an underexamined area of life.

• 3:49Speaker 01

  Totally. Yeah, I mean, you mentioned author. I sometimes forget that I wrote a book. I did. And in that book, I talk about being a what-is-this kid. And that just, I think everybody's a what-is-this kid, meaning like, what is reality? And I just held on to it a little bit longer. I think that's something, because I want to be grateful to my parents for, because they sent me to a Quaker school, like Quaker summer camp. And it wasn't that they were overtly spiritual, they weren't. But there was a lot of silence and there was a lot of like encouraging of being childlike. So I think I had a lot of room to like stretch. My thing was that like, what is this instinct? Mine was always like, what is fire?

• 4:31Speaker 01

  Like, I never got someone to tell me what fire was in a way that was even remotely satisfying. And I didn't even think that was unique. I kind of thought everybody was going, what is fire? Really, fire was just a choice, but it could be anything. What is a plant? It's the old contemplation, why should anything exist? But I really feel like I had that naturally. And I think it came, this could be wrong, but I think it came because I was a very vivid dreamer. I still am, but that was always like a gift to me. Was every night you'd go to bed and let's say you dream about a table and you're touching the table. Then you wake up and you realize it wasn't real. I didn't quite formulate it as like, well, then how do I know this is real?

• 5:16Speaker 01

  That's how I would say it now. But I think because I had a rich dream life, every night I was getting this like clue as to like, well, what is the mind? And what is reality? And how are they related? And it came out as what is fire? And no grown up I knew really had a good answer. Science would say, you know, it's a combustion of this and that. But like, it's just naming other unknowable things. That's not disparaging. And it's just kind of like, I don't know, it's putting a vocabulary to it. But like that painting, this is not a pipe. It's like, it's not fire. It's not what we're talking about. We're talking about something ineffable, kind of. We can break it down, but we'll never really get to its essence.

• 5:59Speaker 01

  So that I had that and the rich dream life. And then my mom introduced me to what I would, we didn't call ourselves a fundamentalist church, but it was kind of fundamental in the sense that it was a literal interpretation of the Bible church. And I got really into that for a long time. And even though I don't practice that anymore, I'm really grateful that I kind of had. That experience, even leaving it was a valuable experience.

• 6:24André Duqum?

  Yeah, the contrast of it, because it's interesting you mention, like, I feel, I mean, most kids come into this life with that innate sense of curiosity and wonder and by habit of the culture that we live in, and we just love to label things. And it's useful, obviously, to have models of-

• 6:42Speaker 01

  Useful, it's not useful to say, what is fire? It's considered navel gazing, or it's considered like a waste of time.

• 6:50André Duqum?

  Right.

• 6:50Speaker 01

  It's fire, it'll burn you, let's move on. That's like the mentality, we need to build a bridge, but it's not the mentality that we need to like, understand the nature of reality, which is, as you know, is just not very valued.

• 7:02André Duqum?

  Yeah, so that top don way of processing and labeling things to say, okay, I identify that tree or that bird by that name, and then I know it. That goes hand in hand, coincidentally, with, I think, your transition out of the Christian faith, because it sounds like through your own spiritual inquiry and just looking inwards, you made this distinction between beliefs and models of reality versus direct experience. And I'm just curious how that deepened.

• 7:30Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, you hit it right on the head. In fact, we just jumped to a great part of my story, which is a great part-

• 7:35André Duqum?

  But catch us up a little bit.

• 7:37Speaker 01

  I will, if you want, but like, you really just nailed it in a really great way. Because my real bullet points here, I was like, a fundamentalist Christian, in my own experience, that's what I would have called myself, it's literal, this is what's happening, heaven, hell, angry God, all that sort of stuff. And then I got married, and I thought I was doing everything right, and then my wife left me, and that really turned me upside down. But what really got interesting was, I took mushrooms, like so many of these stories, I took mushrooms at a music festival that I was performing at. And I remember, like Reggie Watts was there, and Amy Schumer was there, and my friend Jamie Lee and I

• 8:20Speaker 01

  were hanging out, and somebody gave us this mushroom chocolate. And I remember Amy Schumer said, "It's like weed, but stronger." And then I remember when it kicked in being like, "No, it's not." What are you, how much weed are you smoking?" Like, just because it was so, so much stronger and more undeniable of an experience. But I also remember being really grateful to her, because if she had said, like, "You're gonna see gnomes," or whatever, which I didn't really, but people kind of turned into Tolkien kind of style people. Let's put it this way, I would never do a psychedelic at a music festival now. But my first time, I did. And I'm glad that I thought it was gonna be no big deal. And it ultimately wasn't a huge deal, it was a pretty small dose.

• 9:05Speaker 01

  But what happened was, my experience, I had an experience. Instead of talking about other people's experience, finally, something was happening to me. I'm not saying you have to do psychedelics to do this, but like, I remember, you know, laying on my side on a, it's a cliche, like, on the grass, and it was like twilight, and I'm looking at this tree, and, you know, the tree's breathing, and I'm breathing, and we're like, I'm sinking up with this tree, like, real unitive. I didn't know the term "unitive consciousness," but I was like, "Oh." Oh, God, I could cry. It's like, I'm the tree, I'm the grass, I'm the sky. And also, those like little jokes that mushrooms like to make, where it's like,

• 9:47Speaker 01

  the sky looked like the unfurling of a backdrop of a bad play. You know, just like this little wink of like, "Look, it's a show, it's a show." And I was just having something that I wouldn't, until years later, consider to be a religious experience. I was just having a nice experience. But the more I thought about it, and the more I tried to process it, and more importantly, the more I realized I couldn't process it, and I couldn't even really think about it, that I realized that there was an aspect to reality that is, I love this word, I'm using it for the second time here, ineffable, you can't talk about it, meaning it's transcendent.

• 10:27Speaker 01

  It softened me to the potential that the religious texts and the stories that I had been told weren't literally true, but were true in a different way. And then I started, I found Joseph Campbell and then others later down the line that embraced his approach that like, there's some truths that are so big, they can only be told with lies. Now, I can say that to you, and that's kind of fun. Oh, there are truths that are so big, they can only be told with lies. Fine. But until you have an experience that you can't talk about, it's kind of hard to know what you're talking about when you say you can't talk about it. But now I'm like, oh, I have to lie to you to tell you what that experience was like.

• 11:10Speaker 01

  And then I was like, oh, maybe that's what all spiritual texts are. Then I found like Richard Rohr, who says metaphor is the only language we have to speak of. God, this is a Franciscan in a robe, you know, he's got the official seal of approval for, I'm not even Catholic, but from the Catholic Church. And he's saying, we can only talk about these things indirectly. And because of my personal experience, I was like, I know what they're talking about. I had a touchstone to go like, there are things you can't talk about. And it happened to me. But then, and we'll get to this later, I imagine, you start going like, well, that knowing that was so psychedelic and strange is the same knowing that I know you.

• 11:51Speaker 01

  And I can practice that inquiry, driving up your windy road, driving back on my way home. It's always there. And when you explore your own nature, you don't need to be tripping for it to be remarkable. That's what Rupert says, there's nothing mundane. It's like, once you recognize what seeing is, or begin to start to understand what seeing is, nothing is mundane. So waiting at the DMV can become the same kind of experience as laying on the side, looking at a tree and breathing.

• 12:24André Duqum?

  So to walk us back a little bit, because you now have the contrast of leaving organized religion, but being able to reinterpret really profound stories and myths throughout time in different religions through the lens of the mystical. Because in reality, it's like, okay, some dude, hundreds or thousands of years ago, had a profound experience of life and was able to articulate that. And whatever way it got distorted and profited from, and in different ways, we could kind of talk around it.

• 12:54André Duqum?

  That experience is on offer for all of us. And, and when you, when you think of it from that lens, and then you can go back and reinterpret a lot of these, you know, the Garden of Eden and the burning of the bush and the prodigal son, which I know you love talking about. It, uh, it reframes it in a big way where I feel like a lot of people who leave organized religion shame it, hate it, like push it in the corner, but then you get to reinterpret a lot of these Gnostic texts and it reawakens the beauty of it, I feel like.

• 13:22Speaker 01

  I actually think that's the greatest joy of my life. That's nothing excites me. I'm a little bit over it now because it's normal now, but when I first started to discover that it was there, there's something about that reclaiming something that was given to you, and it was sort of given to me in what I would consider a broken form, meaning it was repurposed to be shameful or scary, or I always think of, Meister Eckhart said, "It's a lie, any talk of God that does not comfort you." I think that's beautiful. So here are these stories, the prodigal son was told to me as like a horror story, or like the Adam Eve is like this terrible thing. And, and when you start peeling back your own understanding and then going back, it's

• 14:07Speaker 01

  really satisfying because, you know, Richard Rohr has a book that's called Order, Disorder, Reorder, and that is the pattern of life. Order, I was told that like I do this and this and this and I'll go to heaven. Disorder, oh, my wife left me, God's not looking out for me, we're in chaos, maybe there isn't anything going on here, it's disorder. And then the third step is reorder. That, that's also, you could say that's Easter, that's resurrection, it's death, resurrection. But so many people don't resurrect, and I understand, it's hard to. And I'm going to mix the metaphor even more. There's this rabbinical teaching that both Rob Bell and I love where it says, "Any old

• 14:48Speaker 01

  donkey can tear down a barn or a shed, but it takes a special donkey to build a shed." Which I think is funny because I picture a donkey building a shed with a hoof, which is very silly, but like. It's really easy to tear something down and go, "My faith was bullshit." "Oh, you think there's an old man on the sky?" Like, that's really kind of delicious. It's like smoking. It's like, "You seem cool, you don't care, you're not a, you're nobody's fool," you know?

• 15:18André Duqum?

  Righteousness feels great.

• 15:19Speaker 01

  It's great, and you have, you're looking down on this organized starch shirt khaki thing, and you get to be like, "Bullshit, so fucking cool." But the rebuilding is so much sweeter, and it's not for anybody else, it's just for you. And when you look at, like, you mentioned the Garden of Eden. I was just thinking about the Garden of Eden, I think it was maybe today, where I was like, "How brilliant is it that they were in the garden," which is a metaphor. This is like a 5,000-year-old story, that people are maybe older, but like, people are in unitive consciousness, they're in, they're one with God, they're in the same place as God, and then they decide to eat from the tree of good and evil, which I really like,

• 16:03Speaker 01

  because it has our choosing in it. Like, we would like to see what it's like to know good from bad, right from left, up from down, male from female, whatever it is. So we eat, and then we're kicked out. That's a great way to explain the whole situation. It's like, we could have just stayed there, but nothing was happening. So we chose to sacrifice that heaven state to be in a place of yes and no. And as soon as you have yes, you have no, and if you have pain, you have pleasure, both the other way. And I was like, "That's brilliant." And the prodigal son is brilliant, brilliant story. And I, it makes me sad to think that I might not have ever had these teachers like Rob

• 16:47Speaker 01

  Bell, like Richard Rohr, that helped me go back and go, "It was right there the whole time." You know what I mean? Because like, those stories from your youth, it's like, the first cut is the deepest. So if you just dismiss it, you're missing a really delectable meal. Like, if you can get it back, and now on your, not on your terms, but in a way that resonates, it's really powerful.

• 17:12André Duqum?

  It puts the human experience in context also when you can relate that to your own human journey like you did with through divorce, through rejoicing to the reorder of your life.

• 17:23Speaker 01

  Yes, it makes you realize you're right on track. I was, I'm very order disorder reorder. Chelsea and I were just talking about how the reorder part of your life can sometimes be the most boring because you're very like, I feel so much more steady than I did, but I'm grateful for the disorder and I'm grateful for the order, although that was a little traumatic.

• 17:44André Duqum?

  Yeah, that part of us that identifies chaos with familiarity and excitement like it's a new, it's a new form of excitement, you know, one with less maybe moving parts around or.

• 17:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:58André Duqum?

  But I'm curious, so walk us through that process. And I love how you speak about the prodigal son. And if you're not tired of speaking to it, I think this is a perfect moment to kind of walk us through that.

• 18:08Speaker 01

  That's generous of you. I think it's all right there. And there's actually a twist that I was just thinking about that I think you'll enjoy because I enjoy it and we like the same sort of stuff. But the prodigal son, the story of the prodigal son is the end of the Sermon on the Mount. As a comedian, I like to say it's Jesus's closer. It's like the big finish. It's also, I don't always say this, but like, if you're into this sort of thing, historically, it's the most verifiably said by Jesus, if that means anything to you. That's kind of fun. They're like, we have the most evidence that this is something Jesus of Nazareth said. But we all know the story. And I like to point out that, you know, there's a son, it's not a king, but like, we like to say it's a king. It's like

• 18:52Speaker 01

  a fancy dad. And the son says, give me my inheritance, which I think is what we're all doing. It's like, give me consciousness, give me life, and I'm going to go and make a big mess of it. And the loving father says, here it is, here's your inheritance early. The son leaves and he squanders it, which is kind of like the first half of your life or could be your whole life. It doesn't say that he gets sex work or drugs or alcohol, but it kind of feels like he does. Spends all of his money, wastes all of his money, squanders, and then he's working with the pigs because he has nothing. And as I always point out, working with the pigs as a Jewish person, that would be like the lowest of the low in the culture. You're working with an unclean animal.

• 19:37Speaker 01

  And then, this is the part that I like to say, like, in the traditional understanding of Christianity that I grew up in, which is atonement theory, which is that Jesus dies for your sins. So this guy is a sinner, meaning he's forgotten who he is. He's lost and he's broken and he's destitute. There needs to be like a Jesus character that comes and finds the guy and says, "Look, your father's a tyrant. He's gonna be really upset with you. Obviously, you've wasted this gift that he gave you. Look at you. He's gonna hate you. He's gonna wanna kill you. But let him kill me. I'll walk you home and we'll let him kill me." Because we both know he's gonna have to kill somebody. That's just how he is.

• 20:21Speaker 01

  "But I'll walk you home and then we'll throw me in front of your father. He can kill me, quench his bloodlust, and then he'll begrudgingly allow you back into the kingdom." That would be the story of atonement theory. That's what I was told, which is that, you know, "The blood of Jesus washed me. I was miserable. God hates me, you know, sinner in the hand of an angry God. He wants to dump me in the fire like a spider that won't stop biting him." That's actually in that sermon, by the way, that idea. That's what I was raised with. But it was right there in front of me. All the prodigal son does is he remembers who his dad is, that his dad has many bedrooms and he's his dad. "He loves me. What am I doing?" He just kind of recognizes his identity. "I am my father's son.

• 21:06Speaker 01

  He'll let me at least work in his house." So he walks back and the key part is, before he's even gotten all the way to the house, the father runs out and meets him. He won't even wait. He can't wait because he loves his son so much. And then the punchline is, and this has a very interesting, non-dual, kind of hidden twist, I think. The father says, "I am always with you and everything I have is yours." The son's like, "I'm sorry you left." And he goes, "What are you talking about? I'm always with you and everything I have is yours." I'm like, "Well, that's funny that he says, 'I am always with you and everything I have is yours.'" The "I am" is always, the "I am" was as with him when he was with the pigs, as when he was in his father's house.

• 21:47Speaker 01

  There's nowhere you can go that's away from yourself, the "I am", which is a beautiful, like, what does he mean? "I'm always with you?" He was just not with him. He's like, no, I'm always with you. That's Jesus trying to say, you can't leave the house. There's nowhere to go. You can't become what you already are. He was always and already the man's son, when he was there or when he was back. And that's life. Life is an inheritance of forgetting and a remembering.

• 22:18André Duqum?

  We start from the oneness. We hang out with the pigs and forget ourself. And then we return back to our Father, AKA recognizing the kingdom of heaven is within us and always was, always will be.

• 22:27Speaker 01

  Precisely. And it's not an error. Like, the Father doesn't give the inheritance like, all right. Like, there are other myths like that, like, you're gonna regret it. He just gives it to them. That's life. And God also, in the story of the Garden of Eden, could have not put the tree of good and evil in the garden, but he did. And we ate it in the same way that the Son left. We elect to do it. We're like co-conspirators in the idea that we want to go and swim in this craziness, but actually never having left.

• 23:02André Duqum?

  What would you say to somebody that's wrestling with this, this understanding of feeling like they've been indoctrinated in something where there's all these beliefs they haven't really fully signed up for, and yet there is fear of locking them in so many different ways? Because I've experienced this with different friend groups growing up, and I have a lot of compassion for it. I don't feel like it's upon me to change anyone's idea about anything. I think we're all on our own journeys. But what have you found that really moves the needle from taking somebody from belief to direct experience? Because we live in a belief-heavy culture.

• 23:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, right. Like, what group do you belong to? Well, I mean, for me, it was psychedelics. That's not what I'm recommending. There's a couple, this isn't be here now. There's a couple of different approaches. Obviously, around us would say one of them is psychedelics. One of them is taking other people's word for it. Like, when I say Meister Eckhart, that's important to me. This is like a 1300s mystic wrote some of the most beautiful stuff. And when he says, "It's a lie, any talk of God that does not comfort you." If you can lock into that, this person that devoted their life to God, and they're reporting back, they're having a mystical experience, and they're reporting back,

• 24:17Speaker 01

  there's that comfort. There's also just like, I think you have, we all have a certain level of...

• 24:25Speaker 01

  What Father Boyle calls the mystical lens. Like, you can look at things and go, you know, they told me to be afraid of this, or they told me God is like this. It just doesn't resonate with me. It doesn't line up with my experience. Like, the angry dad who wants to murder us, I think, has a lot more to do with psychology than it does with theology. Right? It's like, that's the dad, that's the 90s dad that's drunk and scary, and we're afraid of him, and we're still afraid of him. But that has to do with a childhood wound, and we can start to recognize that. I said this to George Shenko, we were talking about George Shenko off the air, that I think there's a certain amount of,

• 25:07Speaker 01

  you need to learn how to recognize your inner compass and go, that, that sounds like truth to me. It feels like coming home, it feels familiar. And the example I give is, sometimes online, they'll say, they'll do a challenge where they're like, draw Shrek from memory. And people will try and draw Shrek, and they're awful. They're so bad, which is so weird that we know what Shrek looks like, but we can't draw him. And we can look at a thousand wrong Shreks and go, these are all awful, to the point where they're funny. Then you see the right Shrek, and even though you couldn't draw it, what's going on there? You have a memory, you have a recollection that you can't picture? Well, yeah. And that's how I think it is with God, believe it or not.

• 25:52Speaker 01

  I think there's something that you might not be able to articulate or draw, but there's an intuitive knowing, when you see Shrek, you know it. And when I hear, it's a lie, any talk of God that does not comfort you, I go, that's correct. And when I hear, God is a loving Father, but He can't wait to kick you in a furnace because you accidentally picked the wrong religion, I go, that's not Shrek. I really think it's, there is something in us. Because it is us. Does it sound like you? We're getting ahead of ourselves.

• 26:24Speaker 00

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• 26:54Speaker 03

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• 27:25André Duqum?

  I think we're right on time.

• 27:26Speaker 01

  Oh, really?

• 27:27André Duqum?

  Yeah, for the show, I think.

• 27:31André Duqum?

  Yeah, man, I think all these, like, so many of these concepts are useful than to go beyond the concepts entirely. And when we get stuck in the models of reality and the beliefs around reality and what our ideas of what God is as a substitute for the real thing, which is the direct experience, which we can have viscerally, internally, in this present moment.

• 27:54André Duqum?

  Yeah, it's just, it creates unnecessary barrier.

• 27:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. Have you heard that saying? It's like, when given the choice between the journey or the destination, the ego will always choose the journey? The metaphor that Rupert uses is the moth and the flame, and the moth wants the flame, which is divine union, but it also knows it will be annihilated if it goes into the flame. And that's sort of the predicament we're in. And there's also Trungpa Rinpoche said enlightenment is the ego's ultimate disappointment or its final disappointment. So there is a sort of like, shh, don't talk about, don't talk about that. We don't, we don't want to get to that.

• 28:38Speaker 01

  We would rather keep wandering around like the Israelites or whoever, anybody on a long journey would rather go on the journey than reach the destination because then it seems like the party's over. Of course, it's not, but it seems like it is.

• 28:52André Duqum?

  You mentioned we were chatting about George Shenko, who's a friend, and you went on his podcast. And it was like a clashing of understanding, kind of speaking from direct experience versus through, through what the Bible teaches, essentially. And why I actually liked it is because it highlighted and it showed that contrast.

• 29:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:12André Duqum?

  You know, even though maybe there was rub in the conflict, there was still respect and you guys were amicable.

• 29:17Speaker 01

  I think we loved each other the whole time, but there was, it was like, it was hard for me because it was like talking to, and I don't mean this in a condescending way, it was like talking to another version of myself. You know what I mean? So it was more personal than just kind of disagreeing with somebody. I actually felt like I was talking to another time in my life. So it was, it was frustrating for me because I really wanted, maybe, I don't know, maybe on an ego level, I don't know, for him to be like, I get it, you're right, you know, like it's hard to surrender those. But out of love, like I was like, I don't, I remember, and I don't know if George is this way, but I remember being very

• 30:00Speaker 01

  tight on so many things. And I think I even said that in that conversation, that like, the metric that I have is how spacious you are and how like free you are, not how correct you are. But I can get caught up in wanting someone to understand what I'm saying. I replayed it quite a bit in my head after.

• 30:19André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 30:19Speaker 01

  So I'm glad you liked it.

• 30:20André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 30:21Speaker 01

  I haven't talked to many people about it.

• 30:23André Duqum?

  I think it's important to have those conversations where you disagree and see what comes of it, even though it's not the most fond or doesn't feel the most productive in the moment, you know, it's, I think it does support people who are in that own contemplation and let people decide for their own path where, you know, what to make of it. Hey y'all, I want to talk about tea for a second. Cause tea is more than just a normal drink, it's a ritual for me. And after trying so many different brands, I find myself continually coming back to and drinking on the show, the ones from Peak Life, especially their Pu'er tea. It's wild harvested, which means it comes from ancient tea trees. And it's Fermented for gut health, that fermentation process loads it up with living probiotics and

• 31:07André Duqum?

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• 31:49André Duqum?

  see all of our partner deals at knowthyselfpodcast.com slash partners. Back to the show.

• 31:56André Duqum?

  How would you articulate your evolution of understanding God? Like, of course, we spoke to how few a tool it is to try to describe the ineffable. But if you were to put it into words now.

• 32:07Speaker 01

  But it's also the most intimate thing in the world. It's, I remember it was Krishna Das who said, it's what's looking at your eyes right now. Or it's not what the eye can see, it's that whereby the eye can see. So it's the act of, or Paul said, we live and move and have our being in Christ, right? So Christ meaning awareness. So it's simultaneously, and this is straight Rupert Spira, it's impersonal, which means ultimate reality does not know subject to object. So it's not somewhere watching this podcast like, like other people might be. That's kind of a lonely thing when you consider that God doesn't

• 32:49Speaker 01

  really know about us. But it's, that's how, that's how I understand it now. It's.

• 33:00Speaker 01

  You can't stand apart from us. We're... So it's impersonal, but it's intimate. It couldn't be closer to us. So what I like to say now is, I believe in God, but I don't think God exists. Like, I don't think you can go somewhere and find something and stand apart from God and go, "There is God. I knew you existed." And God would point back at you and go, "There is Andre. I knew you existed." That... I don't think that's how it works. The metaphor that I like, which Rupert uses, I think Ramona Marsh uses, is the screen that we live and move and have our being like characters in a movie.

• 33:39Speaker 01

  And God, for lack of a better word, is the screen, is the knowing screen that we are on. So it kind of works in a couple of different levels. The screen doesn't know what's happening in the movie. The screen isn't affected or changed by what's happening in the movie. So that can be a little lonely. There's a mourning when you consider that you've sort of lost that traditional, "Help me find a parking spot" relationship. But then you also realize, like, what are you talking about? It's all you. There's only screen. So the metaphor that I really love that Rupert uses is the actor John Smith, who's playing King Lear. And he gets... And John Smith's ultimate reality is the one knowing.

• 34:22Speaker 01

  But he dresses in King Lear's clothes, and he does the play King Lear. But he gets so lost in it that he forgets that he's John Smith. And backstage, he's still upset about his wife and the war with France, and all this is all Rupert. Then somebody comes back and says, "Why are you miserable?" And he's like, "I'm upset about the war in France." He's like, "No, you forgot who you are." So God is sort of impersonal, but also it's what's giving this life. It couldn't be closer. All those stories that you hear about people that leave their homes and go on journeys around the world looking for enlightenment, and then somebody says it's back... or looking for gold, let's say it's not usually enlightenment. They go, "Go back to your house and look in the basement."

• 35:06Speaker 01

  There's a million stories like that. Go back to where you were, and you realize what you're looking with is what you're looking for. So the idea of God somewhere else, something else that you can find, is absurd. That with which you're looking is the thing. And that's step one. Then step two is to investigate the nature of that knowing. And it's like this, this is also a Rupert metaphor. It's like the space in this room. It's transparent. It's at peace. There's no agitation. There's no lack, so it's happy. It's not happy in the sense that you feel happy. It's happy in the sense that there's no lack. So you realize that there's this background that's always with you.

• 35:49Speaker 01

  It's at peace and it's happy. And in that, these other like ink and water appears. You're mad at your dad or you're stuck in traffic. But the background of it is your true nature. And you can dip and retreat into that at any moment. That becomes the mystical experience. That's not just a belief. That's me when I'm going to hit traffic on the way home. That's me in traffic on the way home going, there's nothing missing here. There's nothing missing here. That's the good news. It's all right here. There was nowhere to go. You can't become what you already are. You can't go on a journey looking for what you already always were. You were always the sun.

• 36:33Speaker 01

  That's, that's good news.

• 36:36André Duqum?

  It's the great news.

• 36:37Speaker 01

  It's great news.

• 36:38André Duqum?

  Yeah, because it invites, it's something that is immediately verifiable within everybody's experience, too.

• 36:45Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 36:45André Duqum?

  Like when you speak to the background awareness, which knows any experiences happening that is the same within you, that is the same within me and the same within everybody listening right now. You can check in on that and verify that. So is that what you're referring to when you mention God? That same place that is within you that is within us?

• 37:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, God, guru and self. We're not a big guru culture, but God and self. Now, we don't go around and say, I am God. That's just, that's kind of just a ridiculous way to phrase it. But you say, the eye with which I look at God is the same eye that looks at me. There's only one eye. I and the Father are one. You know, that experience, so interesting to think like, and I did, like Jesus was one with God, but somehow there's a perimeter around me. Like I'm somehow sustaining myself apart from God. Rupert's always really funny with that. He's like, that's actually blasphemy. It's to say, I am somehow self-sustaining and someday I'll merge back with God. It's like you're saturated in it right now.

• 37:48Speaker 01

  But that self. Is one of my favorite ways to kind of explore it, and this is what Rupert is so good at, is it's the most obvious hidden thing in the world. And it takes, for me, it's taken a lot of repetition to go like, what do you mean? I like the empty room. I'm like, this room, the space in this room, it's the same space as outer space. And when these walls are demolished, the space will be the same. That's like the death of the room. But what are you talking about? It just reunited, even though it was never separate from the rest of the space. But it'll have the appearance of a death and a rebirth. I like looking at the quality of this room and knowing that I'm like that space.

• 38:33Speaker 01

  But one of the ways that I like to play with that, and this can freak people out, but I find it to be quite comforting, is, you know, I can hear your voice. It works better with your eyes closed. I can hear my own voice. So funny, and then you say something.

• 38:48André Duqum?

  What up, Pete?

• 38:49Speaker 01

  Okay. So that appeared in the same place that my own voice appeared. I know that's so obvious. I really resent that you have to be stoned or on drugs for this to be interesting. It's so interesting. My voice has a different quality because it's sort of muffled because it's in my voice. And then I hear you and I kind of, based on the volume, my brain makes the story that you're over there. But even like, then we get into feelings. Like, let's say I'm feeling anxious. I'm not, but let's say I am. I'm feeling that. In the same kind of naked, spacious, aware field comes a feeling. Let's say it's excitement. I'm excited to be talking to you. That emerges in this same space-like field.

• 39:32Speaker 01

  The sound of my voice, the sound of your voice, the feeling of excitement. Then I could touch my legs. That feeling, that sensation, appears in the same space-like place, that your voice, my voice, and a feeling appeared. Then we can bring in a thought. I can sing "Happy Birthday" in my head. So now I have "Happy Birthday" playing. I hear your voice, I hear my voice, feel the feeling, I feel the excitement. It's all appearing in this same borderless, boundaryless, space-like field, for lack of a better. And then you realize everything is kind of a story, meaning...

• 40:15Speaker 01

  Like if I hear a bird, it also appears in that, but it's distant. So I'll go, it's way over there. It actually occurred within me. It was literally within me. And you start going like, when you can really dip into like, what we're doing when we do this is playing with where is this thing we call awareness? And what is it? Is there a boundary to it? Is there a place where it stops and it's not on the other side of it? That's a good one. When I hear a bird, it sounds like it's far away, but it actually couldn't have been closer to me. It's made of me. The sound of a bird is made of the knowing of it, which is what I am.

• 40:57Speaker 01

  And then you go over and over and over with meditations like that. And you start to realize, okay, there isn't something, somewhere else, somebody else called God. The whole thing lives and moves in this one knowing. And like, you know, cups of water in the ocean, or maybe it's better to say waves on the ocean. We all have the illusion, the play. My daughter's name is Lila, which means the play of the universe. The play of the universe is, I'll pretend to be this one, you pretend to be that one. You can be something for me to love or to forgive, or you can be something, we can make art, or we could learn, or we could, whatever. We could nothing, we could do nothing, whatever you want.

• 41:42Speaker 01

  But like, we're gonna play. There's a bird talker lyric, we're one wind distracted by our different sails. So we're all these different sailboats, but we're all propelled by the same wind. And then you start to realize when Jesus said, I and the Father are one, he wasn't saying, Jesus Christ of Nazareth is one with the Father. He said, I and the Father are one. I think that's very deliberate. I. And when I say I, it's the same I, because it's the only I. Because if there were multiple I's, now we're dividing God, and that's actually blasphemy. As opposed to, people say, you shouldn't talk that way. That's blasphemous. Like, it's actually blasphemous the other way.

• 42:23André Duqum?

  It helps, again, put into context this human journey. The Vedic understanding is like the one becomes two for the joy of becoming one again. And I think in my conversation with Rupert, we talked about how suffering is the cost of admission for the illusion of separation, for the stand to play, for the lila to occur. There needs to be this perception of separation of subject and object, of me and you. And it's how oneness gets to differentiate and experience itself through many different eyes. And the suffering comes in identifying with our separate form and thinking that's actually who we are. And so I think that practice, which is, again, immediately verifiable and implementable

• 43:05André Duqum?

  through anybody who's listening right now to check in with that, is powerful.

• 43:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, your body appears in that field of awareness. What you mean by your body is when you see and feel, and you know, and when you're not looking at it, the perception of it goes away, obviously, this starts to feel a little childish. Well, you realize, when you say your body, you're talking about like an amorphic, it's like clouds of perception, and it appears in that field, and that field is what you actually are. And that's not just wishful thinking, you can really explore that. This is why we love body swap comedies. This is why we love all that sci-fi stuff. We know, intuitively know, that when Rupert says, one of the things he does is close your eyes and act like you're a newborn baby, but you haven't even opened your eyes. And he goes, tell me about yourself.

• 43:54Speaker 01

  You wouldn't have any concept of body, gender, nationality, humanness, but you would know that you are. And that's the only true thing, that's the only knowable thing.

• 44:06André Duqum?

  Irreducible.

• 44:07Speaker 01

  Because I am, yes, as I am, yeah. That's good stuff, right?

• 44:11André Duqum?

  Yeah, yeah, it's great. I love how we just dove right into the deep end off the bat. But if we want to go on the path of self-realization and have the experience where we become self-realized, how other could it start with first getting acquainted with the experience of our own consciousness and spending time and just hanging out and just call it whatever you want, whether it's meditation or contemplation, but you sit with your eyes closed and go inwards and just hang out?

• 44:37Speaker 01

  And your ability to articulate it or formulate it is not...

• 44:42Speaker 01

  It's not what we're talking about.

• 44:43André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 44:44Speaker 01

  I like talking about it.

• 44:45André Duqum?

  It's helpful when you're on a podcast to talk about it.

• 44:48Speaker 01

  If you look at somebody with special needs, or somebody that doesn't, never learned how to read, or whatever it might be, this is the most ubiquitous, this is the most generous outpouring. It's like, you're already the guy's son. It's just your birthright. It's the only thing that's happening. You can't not be it. You can forget that you're it. That's the game. That's the friction or the tension, is the knowing can be veiled. I wrote this in my book. I said, "There's nothing that you can do to increase or decrease the infinite love of God, but there are things you can do that will increase or decrease your awareness of that love." That's how I articulated it then.

• 45:32Speaker 01

  Now, I would say, like, you can't ever not be whole, complete. You could say a child of God. You could say the one I am, whatever. But you can veil your... You can get lost in the story of experience. And so, you can forget, and you can remove that veil. And it's, it's the only game in town.

• 45:58André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 45:58Speaker 01

  Take it from someone who's done, and I'm grateful. I've done a lot of extraordinary things in my life. I've been to the tops of a lot of interesting show business mountains. And it's like Ram Dass says, "You eat ice cream, you want water. Now, you want a nap. Now, you want coffee. Now, you want a book. Now, you're bored. You watch a movie. Now, you want sex." You know what I mean? It's, it never ends. You know what I mean? You need... Spirituality will never not be compelling to me because it's asking, "What doesn't change? What is consistent? What is actually always with you? And everything you have is yours." It's your knowing. And what is the nature of that knowing? Peace and happiness. So it's not just to go, I know the meaning of life.

• 46:41Speaker 01

  It's so later, when I'm in traffic, I will go, there's nothing missing here. What in this moment is lacking? Nothing. Nothing.

• 46:49André Duqum?

  One of the byproducts of this recognition, which I think comes up when we speak about it, is laughter, because there's something inherently comical about this play and recognizing how we forget and we pretend it doesn't exist in this recognition. And in many ways, I feel like I feel like I've heard someone say that in some contexts, comedians are like the shamans of modern culture, because they're able to speak to directly what's most important in a way that's diffusing of the seriousness of it. And I love how you bring humor into all this and you speak to the ridiculousness of our human predicament and where we find ourselves on this spinning mud ball. And, and yeah, it just, it eases the edges around it all.

• 47:32Speaker 01

  I know what you're saying. I don't know if I, I don't know about shaman. Here's what I know. I know that we put shackles on our pastors. And I say that with great love for some of my best friends are clergy. That's actually true. But I think we have this like expectation, we sort of Mickey Mouse-ify them. They're not allowed to be doubtful. They're not allowed to be angry. They're not allowed to be horny. They're not allowed to have a bad day. They're just supposed to be the mascots of the church. And they're, and really, the church in the West is a lot of times, and it does a lot of great things. I'm just saying, a lot of times, we get a little lost in the niceness of it all.

• 48:15Speaker 01

  Be nice. As Richard Rohr points out, the word nice isn't in the New Testament. It doesn't say the word nice, but we somehow turned it into like smiling and always being cordial. And so I don't, I feel bad for pastors. I wish they could say, I don't believe today, or I'm feeling doubt, or this or that. It's just not what we expect. What makes being a comedian so wonderful is you not, first of all, you'd be expected to say, I have doubts. You're supposed to say the unsayable thing or the naughty thing. But then you can also say, and like what I try to do with my jokes about the meaning of life is use the same tools that we have as comedians, but in the

• 49:00Speaker 01

  Sort of, I don't want to say in defense of God, but like, let's look at the other way. Everybody's talking about how there is no God. Let's look at the other way with the same kind of wicked approach, you know, mischievous approach. But we have no shackles. We're allowed to say and do whatever we want. I think that's a pretty powerful position. Unfortunately, so many comedians just use that to say the same, like, five things, which is like, isn't sex great? Isn't food great? Isn't winning great? That sort of stuff. But you can, there are outliers that do very interesting things. And I don't mean me, I mean, people that I admire.

• 49:32André Duqum?

  Was it a conscious decision or just kind of the only option for you when you wanted to start infusing a lot of these inquiries and existential, you know, contemplations into your comedy?

• 49:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, it started happening because I did my podcast. When I started doing You Made It Weird, I was like slowly letting out that I was curious about God.

• 49:55André Duqum?

  Coming out the spiritual closet a little bit?

• 49:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, I really was like, every episode, I was like, did we lose all of our listenership because I said this or this? And it didn't happen, like, people were, because it was authentic. It wasn't just being in a religion to be a good boy. I was like, actually, earnestly seeking, and I think people could tell that. So then I was like, okay, people want to hear about this. So then I started doing it in my stand-up very slowly. But I also noticed that, like, when I look at the older specials, as I often do, I'm just kidding, but when I, a clip will come through my feed or something. And like, I had a joke about dreaming, and I was like, explain to an alien that doesn't sleep what sleep is?

• 50:41Speaker 01

  And I was like, I could explain food. I'm like, well, I need energy, so I eat food that has energy, so I can use the energy. And the alien's like, okay. I'm like, but that's not all. At night, regardless of how much energy I've eaten, I just got to shut it down. For like eight, nine, sometimes 12 hours, I just lay still in the dark. He's like, well, that sounds boring. And I go, no, my brain plays movies that I'm in. So that was the joke. And then I'm like, even though that's not a spiritual joke, that is like a, what is, what's going on here? Like, what is reality? Every night, I dream a whole other reality. That would be so weird to an alien. So like, let's talk about it as something strange. So I see these sort of inklings towards those maybe philosophical questions. But then...

• 51:26Speaker 01

  When I did "I'm Not for Everyone," or "Everybody," on Netflix, that was the first time that I did like, all that efforting had led to that joke. It's called "God or Nothing." And that one took a lot. I really think that might be the joke of my career. I'm like, "I think that's it. I think I did it," which is great.

• 51:49André Duqum?

  Which joke specifically was it?

• 51:51Speaker 01

  Because I say, I go, "Some people think God created the universe. Some people think nothing created the universe." And I go, "Which is the funniest guess?" And I go, "And then nothing people make fun of the God people. They say God doesn't exist." And I go, "Yeah, maybe." But you know what definitely doesn't exist? Nothing. That's the defining characteristic of nothing, is that it doesn't exist. So what are we talking about? You're either talking about nothing, something you can't see, touch, taste, photograph, and science can't prove, created the universe, or God, something you can't see, touch, taste, photograph, and science can't prove, created the universe. But if you're nothing, if one of the things your nothing does is spontaneously erupt into everything,

• 52:35Speaker 01

  that's a pretty goddamn magical fucking nothing, you guys. Then ask the nothing people, "What happens when you die?" They'll tell you, "You go into nothing." And I'm like, "You mean you merge back with your Creator? That's heaven, bitch." So that joke took years to get right. It was so hard to figure. There were all these... I used to tell the prodigal son story in the joke. Like, it was like fumbling around in the dark. I had no idea. But when I came to the like, idea that it is funny that the sound argument that defeats the God argument is the nothing argument, I was like, "Oh, well, let's just hold those up."

• 53:19Speaker 01

  And I'm not, and I'm not talking about... I'm not even defending every idea of God. I'm just saying like, both of these are a mist. They're both words for a mystery. They're both words for a mystery. And nothing is just as much as a God as my God. Because my God is no thing. So we're talking about the same thing. It wasn't like the God people are right and the nothing people are wrong. It's like, we're actually saying the exact same thing. An unknowable, unseeable something did something.

• 53:52Speaker 01

  So why are we fighting? I know why we're fighting though, because a lot of people say, you know, the old man in the sky hates gay people. So yeah, I also don't like that God.

• 54:00André Duqum?

  Yeah. Yeah, man. It's so fascinating when you, you hold, it's essentially holding up a mirror to culture, to your audience. And when you get to see firsthand how two seemingly disparate things are actually speaking about it, about the same thing in two, two ways, falling short both equally.

• 54:22Speaker 01

  Totally. Well, that's, that's something I'm very passionate about is I'm like, I have way more in common with an atheist than I would like a really ardent believer. And that's what I'm trying to do with that joke is really say like, we're, we're all in the same conundrum. We're soaking in the same mystery. We all woke up in something we don't understand. But we all have to like, I think one of the things we're doing with art, with conversation, with everything is going like, recognizing that we are in this really strange situation. And it deserves, we should be, we should be working together, not dividing ourselves into the God people and the science people.

• 55:03André Duqum?

  We do really lack perspective, how weird it is.

• 55:07Speaker 01

  Well, that goes back to what is this? The other choice, when you go, what is fire? And you're like, I just don't understand, is not, not science. It's actually the middle people that just go, they said it's fire. It's fire. Of course it's fire. What else would it be? And you dry up and you lose it. But I think, I think wonder is a very powerful. Lubricant.

• 55:33André Duqum?

  Yeah, when we lack that perspective and, you know, speak to it in your specials of what happens just when you zoom out and you get to see.

• 55:40Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 55:41André Duqum?

  All of these, you know, all of these humans that really look like ants from their perspective of outer space with all these different opinions and beliefs on what reality is. It's again, one of those mirrors that help you reflect back to the audience, the ridiculousness of our own ideologies.

• 55:57Speaker 01

  Totally. Yeah. And that, that like zooming out to the planet is like a nice kind of materialist way of going like, don't forget, we're part of this like huge thing and we don't know what's going on. What I like about nonduality is when I was a Christian, like, you know, I still love Christ, but I'm just saying, when I was in the church, I would be like, well, if there are aliens on another planet, did an alien Jesus come and die for their alien sins? Like, I needed that to happen. Otherwise, like, those aliens are going to hell. Like, I guess. What I like about, everything I like about nonduality, but like, even if there are aliens, the eye with which they know their experience is

• 56:42Speaker 01

  the only eye there is, it kind of covers, it doesn't kind of cover everything, it covers everything. If it exists and if it knows it exists, it's this one thing playing peek a boo with itself in all these different ways. I really like that. You could, I haven't, but if you smoked DMT and you met a fucking dragon with, you know, microchip limbs and all that sort of stuff, if that is a real entity, it's still made of the only eye there is. It kind of covers everything. It doesn't kind of cover everything, it covers everything.

• 57:11André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 57:12Speaker 01

  And I like that. Instead of needing a microchip winged dragon Jesus to die for that guy.

• 57:17André Duqum?

  That's quite the visual.

• 57:19Speaker 01

  We can make that.

• 57:22Speaker 00

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• 58:21Speaker 01

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• 58:23André Duqum?

  Link in description.

• 58:27André Duqum?

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• 59:11André Duqum?

  Wix is great because the platform is super intuitive, so you don't need to be a tech expert to make something that looks good. If you're ready to create your own website, then go to the link in description or wix.com. That's wix.com to start building your website today. Thank you, Wix, for sponsoring our show. Link in description. You know, you mentioned, it's fascinating that psychedelics is one of your first early direct experiences of seeing that you are really fundamentally connected in a way that we lack the perception of more overtly beforehand. And I think that can be a powerful doorway for people and then you go on your path. Nonduality for many people is seen as sort of the last kind of...

• 59:54André Duqum?

  Like realization onto reality. But yeah, we still come back and we have this new human experience. And I'm curious for your own journey. Like, once somebody understands the non-dual perspective, whatever that means, understands it, like gets intimate with it in their own personal life. We still have a life to live and we still have our characterological stuff. And so I'm curious as like on your human journey with the wife and kid. And how has like shadow work, how is healing, human trauma coincided with the awareness of non-duality?

• 1:00:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a great question. I, I deal with all of that. I, I don't.

• 1:00:30Speaker 01

  It informs like my therapy, like I do parts work therapy and, and I'm actually in the process of doing some pretty heavy therapy and unpacking all of those things, trauma, feelings, the past, all that stuff. So that's part of it. I, I'm not like, uh,

• 1:00:50Speaker 01

  I can spiritually bypass when is desired. Like sometimes it's not just nice. It, it's like the top of the mountain to go like, I have no parents. Jesus actually says that in the Bible.

• 1:01:05Speaker 01

  They, they found him and they're like, what are you doing? Your parents have been looking for you. And Jesus is like, these are my parents. And I'm like, that's hardcore. Can you imagine? Your parents are like, where the hell have you been? I'm like, I don't have parents. That is so badass. So I can do that and I do spend most of my time trying, doing that. Cause I, I don't know, that's, that's what I'm feeling. But then I do spend a lot of time, obviously, playing the character of Pete. I noticed that people are pretty good at forgiving other people, but I really work on forgiving myself. Like I can say like, Andre, if you got really mad at Chelsea, I'd be like, okay, yeah, Andre, he belongs and they're having their thing and maybe I didn't like it, but like

• 1:01:49Speaker 01

  I can allow that. But then if I do something bad, like if I was rude to Chelsea, I'd be like, I'm such a piece of shit, you know? Like, no, we're all lawfully unfolding and we all have our baggage and we all have our mental illness or whatever you want to call it. We all have our blind spots. We all have our shadow. And like, when I'm doing my therapy, it's really powerful to stand as naked awareness and look sort of dispassionately at Pete. It helps me heal to be like, okay, sure, that's not who I really am. But I sure am losing a lot of sleep not being that guy I'm not. You know what I mean? Like, let's work on that. So I do work on myself a lot.

• 1:02:34Speaker 01

  And the thing my wife and I talk about probably the most is our feelings and why we're feeling them. So there's a lot of human experience.

• 1:02:43André Duqum?

  The human experience is often very messy. And I think having the awareness of the space that holds all the weather of our emotions and things is invaluable. And yet, I've heard you speak to this phrase of accept that you are accepted in the process where we forget. What does that mean to you?

• 1:03:00Speaker 01

  Well, that's Richard Rohr, accept that you are accepted. He says, the whole journey is to accept that you are accepted. And that's the prodigal son too, to just remember that you were always and forever were the guy's son. There's nothing you can do to not be that guy's son. It's so powerful, especially as somebody who has a child, to evoke that image. There's a lot of, in Jesus's teachings, talking about fathers, sons, mothers, daughters, that sort of thing. Because you understand, my daughter punches me in the balls all the time. Like, she thinks it's the funniest thing in the world. And if I'm being honest, I also think it's funny and it hurts so much. She's like a frat brother or something. She just punches me. She's older now, so she doesn't do it as much.

• 1:03:44Speaker 01

  But before she really understood, she just thought it was a funny thing. That's that love, right? That's that like, you're mine. That's it, forever.

• 1:03:55André Duqum?

  Has having a kid directly, like, helped you make space for your own humanity?

• 1:04:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure. I mean, it, there's somebody that I have to, not have to, but somebody that exercises my patience. That's a good way to put it. But you, you love them so much that you do, I think, get an inkling. It's a real gift. My understanding of God, who often, as everyone knows, is, you know, a father or a mother or something like that, the source of, of somebody. And, and my daughter seems to be the source of me. Obviously, we have all these similarities. That love is so intense. I've experienced, you know, while we've been talking, I've been like,

• 1:04:42Speaker 01

  it wasn't until I did ketamine that I really had some very intense, non-dual things. Mushrooms, I've, I've since I've done, you know, this past year and mushrooms to me is, I know I'm not quite answering your question, but it came up. Mushrooms to me is showing off, like the universe wants to show off and just go like, "Don't forget, ta-da!" And it just wants to make you laugh and cry. And you're just so humbled by how beautiful and amazing everything is. And then ketamine is like, someone just turns the lights off and, and like, it's just empty, but it's you. And when I go into that space, if any part of me is still there,

• 1:05:26Speaker 01

  it does feel kind of like a father. And you go, "Do you love Pete? Like, I know you're everything, but do you love Pete?" I was like, it's like, ask, it's the most absurd question in the world, asking love if it loves you. It's, but to have that experience, and it's similar to my daughter. It'd be like my daughter saying, "Do you love me?" is the most absurd thing in the world. She could even say, "Do you love my imaginary friend, the dinosaur?" And I'd be like, "I do, and I mean it. Like, I really do, because it's you, it's in your mind, I love it." So when I asked, Ketamine, after having this nondual sort of understanding of God doesn't know subject to object, so it doesn't know Pete, and that was kind of lonely.

• 1:06:11Speaker 01

  And I was like, but do you love Pete? It was like asking the ocean, would you get this wet? Would you get this wet? Would you get this wet? It's like, all I do is get things wet. I am wet. I am wetness. Like, what are you talking? It's all I can do. You say clip it? Clip it. All I can do is make things wet. And that, by the way, go, no, don't you do it. Goes back to like, the joke of it. It's funny to think that there are millions and billions of things asking God if it loves you. That's a joke. That's a funny joke. And you can get into that space when you're on ketamine or not, but like, just laughing.

• 1:06:56André Duqum?

  What kind of setting was that? Like, did you, is it assisted psychotherapy? Or is it solo journey?

• 1:07:02Speaker 01

  It was assisted in an informal way. I didn't go through like a, like a foundation or something, but it was with somebody who was familiar with it. And they were with me and guided me through it. And it's really hard to talk about, but it is like, Val was there.

• 1:07:21André Duqum?

  Your wife?

• 1:07:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, she doesn't do it, but she was there. And I was like, at one point, I was really seeing how all of reality is like, there's a frame rate to reality.

• 1:07:35André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:35Speaker 01

  I looked at both of you to see if I understood. There's a frame rate. Even if you just look at that door, there's still a.

• 1:07:42André Duqum?

  Yeah, like 24 frames a second on a video camera.

• 1:07:44Speaker 01

  Exactly. But even if you're looking at, even if you're looking at the back of your eyes, there's still a, there's still a passage of what feels like time, even looking at something static. And I, and I was, what somebody told me is a K-hole. I was in a place where all of that went away. I was looking at darkness. But then, and this isn't going to make any sense. It was as if someone had taken a big piece of black, like thick.

• 1:08:11Speaker 01

  Like a poster board and they put it between me and the camera. So it was like, right? You know, when you watch like Monty Python or something that have like photographs and like animate them. Anyway, so it wasn't in the frame rate. It was this, it was this darkness and this stillness. And I came back and I said to Val, I go, I just saw the stillest thing I've ever seen. Meaning we've never seen anything still. Everything has visual static, those millions of little dots that you see. Everything has that frame rate that we're talking about. It's all being built, even a still thing. I saw nothing.

• 1:08:49Speaker 01

  And what was great was even in nothing, I am, even in nothing, I'm still there. And so the, the I am-ness was like, look, I'll show you, you can remove everything. As it says in the Old Testament, you go to the heavens, I am there or you are there. I go to the depths, you are there. It's like, you can't, I'll shut the whole thing down and show you that you are not linked to this experience. It's, you're separate from it and it's, it was really beautiful. That is not what you asked, but that is what came up.

• 1:09:19André Duqum?

  I think those reference points, whether they're induced psychedelically or not, even though it doesn't really carry that. And my experience like that does not carry over to day to day life. The reference point does.

• 1:09:29Speaker 01

  As a reference, it's really nice. No, you're absolutely right. The next day even, it's just a memory. But then when I read things and we talk about, I don't know, the void or something, you have a better understanding of what it's talking about. It can inform it, but you're absolutely right. I'm actually not that psychedelically prone. It's a sometimes food for me, but I do, when I go, I'll, I'll say to my friend, I'm like, I go, I forgot my baptism. And then we'll do it again. Just a little refuel.

• 1:10:02André Duqum?

  Yeah. We spoke to how you love to explore and implement these different psychological and existential questions into your work. But what role as a comedian do you feel like you have the unique opportunity to fulfill? And what do comedians have the ability to do for society?

• 1:10:20Speaker 01

  I mean, I think we're really seeing what comedians can do to society when you see what podcasting has done. And that's not coded. I'm not dragging anybody. I'm just seeing it's a real cultural influence. It's not just nightclub, you know, cats in nightclubs smoking cigarettes and talking about their mother in laws anymore. It's like, it's a big part of culture. When I'm performing, I try to remember like what we've been talking about. I'm just performing for myself. It's just, it's just, Rob Bell has this story when he saw Desmond Tutu and the Dalai Lama. They were speaking with him on the same like panel.

• 1:11:02Speaker 01

  And so Desmond Tutu's walking up to Dalai Lama and he's like, what are these two holy people gonna do? Like they're friends. What are they gonna do? And they got right up to each other and he's like, oh, they're gonna hug. And they didn't hug. They started tickling each other. And that's what I think comedy can do is just, we can get real close and just tickle each other and like, create a space together where we're, I don't want to say in agreement, but we're all having the same experience. We're all laughing in the same direction is a really powerful thing. People like doing projects together. It's one of the things that I think AI will be challenging because it's not actually

• 1:11:47Speaker 01

  the result. We actually like doing things together. Like maybe AI in six months will be able to make this conversation in this video. But it's not, that's not the point. The point wasn't the video, it wasn't just the video. It was me coming here and parking and coming in and drinking coffee and sitting with you. So like comedy is similar. We're building a show together. The performer. And the audience should merge into something called a show. So it shouldn't just be about my ego and, oh, I got you all to laugh. That's what makes a heckler so offensive is because they're saying like, I'm not in the group. Like, fuck you, like, you've broken the spell. But when everybody gets together, and I'm not just saying this because we're on this show.

• 1:12:32Speaker 01

  I think there is something very unitive happening. It's like you become one entity. And then Rupert would say, when you're laughing, you're forgetting yourself. So you're kind of having that naked experience. That's not unique to comedy. That's the same as imagining rock climbers, surfers, certainly. Sex, music, good art, good conversation. You can kind of vanish. Conversation is tricky, but like silence, a sunrise, you can vanish. But I also think when you're laughing, you're not really there. And I think that's actually the addiction to it, is you're spending time in this. Let's put it this way, Ram Dass used to say, if your car careens off a cliff,

• 1:13:14Speaker 01

  you're probably not horny while you're flying through the air, right? So when you're laughing, you're probably not worrying about your gas bill. So so much can't come with you on that experience. So it happens inside of you. There's this combustion between the setup and the punchline, and it happens inside of you. And on that journey, nothing you brought in with you can come. It doesn't fit through the gate. So you're naked internally, you're naked and you're free, very briefly. So there's that. Then I do think human beings are very suggestible, obviously. That's why advertising works.

• 1:13:59Speaker 01

  And there's a really interesting, like, I'm a big priming person. Priming, you know what priming is?

• 1:14:05André Duqum?

  Like, so you're priming your state?

• 1:14:07Speaker 01

  It's similar to self-priming. So you're doing self-priming. Do you self-prime? You self-prime, bro?

• 1:14:13André Duqum?

  A little bit, yeah, I think definitely before these podcasts.

• 1:14:15Speaker 01

  What I'm talking about is specifically, so Tony Robbins has like priming. And that's where you think of three memories and three goals. That is priming, that's self-priming. You can also prime other people. And what's a trip is both you and Chelsea, if I say kindness, or patience, or gentleness, you are more likely to be kind, gentle, and patient. It's crazy. So I've said this a million times, so forgive me if it sounds canned. But they did this experiment where they took two groups, always two groups, and they go down the hallway. And in this room, there's magnetic poetry, and they make poems, and then they leave. So everybody thinks, oh, it's a test on like, what kind of poem do I make? But it wasn't. All good science is a trick.

• 1:15:00Speaker 01

  The test was group one got a certain set of words, and group two got a certain set of words. And what they were actually measuring was how quickly or how slowly you left the room, because it's a long hallway to the room. And the people that got the words like rapid, swift, rushed, walked fast, or faster, than the people in the second group, which got words like lethargic, slow, thoughtful, they walked slower. That's priming. That's incredible. There's also another example that I like is this guy would come up to you in a park, and he'd hand you his coffee because he needs to tie his shoe. Do you know this one?

• 1:15:38André Duqum?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:15:39Speaker 01

  And then he'd tie his shoe, and then he'd take it back. And sometimes the coffee was warm, and sometimes the coffee was cold. And if the coffee was warm, they'd come up to the person five minutes later and say, tell me about that person. That's the test. And they didn't even know they were being studied. And if the coffee was warm, they would say, he seemed like a warm person. He seemed like a nice guy. And if it was cold, they're like, I don't know, I seem kind of cold. It was the coffee. That's also a type of priming. So as much as I will, and I will, defend comedians not only right, but sort of it's our job to be wicked sometimes, and say devilish things, to delight people. I'm also aware that there's a real opportunity, let's say, to

• 1:16:26Speaker 01

  Foster other types of energies. And even if it's just joy, it doesn't need to be preachy, like you should donate to this cause that I like. It could be believe this thing that I believe. But it can just be gentleness, or it can be in an attitude that you have towards the audience, an openness of generosity. If somebody says like something and you're like, fuck you, that's a message. The big, powerful person that was under lights with a loud voice, so the alpha was attacked and he was cruel. Got it. You know, that's a message. Or the alpha with the loud voice and the lights that was higher than everybody was patient. That's also, we don't need to like, think about this or burden ourselves with these.

• 1:17:10Speaker 01

  But there is an opportunity to go like, we're so susceptible that we think a cup of coffee is a person. Well, maybe we should talk about, you know, how it's fucking dumb to be mean to gay people or whatever it might be. That's, that's an opportunity, not just in comedy, it's an opportunity in the next conversation you have. And the right conversations that I have, when I talk to my mom and she's getting old and the good ones are, and I'm not doing this to manipulate her, I'll call her and tell her how brave she is and how much I love her, but love is, I like, I cherish you

• 1:17:49Speaker 01

  or like, proud of you or you're important to me, I care about your well-being. These are spells that we cast on each other. But stand-ups can also do that. So the example I often give is the stand-up that says, don't drink and drive, but hey, they can't catch us all, which is a standard joke, is actually kind of a danger, not just kind of, it is a dangerous joke. I don't drink anymore, but when I drank, if the comedian, the alpha onstage, higher, louder, brighter than everybody, says they can't catch us all, am I more likely to drive drunk? Of fucking course. So there's a, let's not get paranoid, we can still be fun, but there is something going on where it's like.

• 1:18:34Speaker 01

  Like, I swear in my comedy, but I still think the comedy I do is beautiful, let's say. And then I'll see people that do clean comedy, meaning they don't swear, but the underlying message, and I'm not thinking of anybody in particular, by the way, for example, Nate Bargatze comes up, if you say, I'm not talking about Nate, I love Nate, I'm not talking about anybody in particular. See, somebody at the club, they're not swearing, but if you look at what they're saying underneath it, you're saying it's okay to hit women. Like, I've seen this, like, right under the surface. You didn't say fuck, shit, but right there, you just said it's okay to hit women. Isn't that dirty?

• 1:19:14Speaker 01

  Or you can say a joke where you say all those words and the message is positive. Maybe bleep when I say cunt. It's a mystery what those words were. Leave a comment with your best guess.

• 1:19:30Speaker 00

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• 1:20:33Speaker 01

  You'll get flagged on YouTube.

• 1:20:34André Duqum?

  Yeah, yeah. It's the end of both of our careers.

• 1:20:39André Duqum?

  It is fascinating how you really, you can recognize how you're planting seeds, for better or worse, with all of our work. But when you're on a stage and you have the ability to get people in a moment where laughter is cracking them up to that moment of like lessening their identifications and opening up for different contemplation. It's a safe space in many ways because people feel disarmed.

• 1:21:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:02André Duqum?

  When they're laughing. Does that responsibility weigh on you at all?

• 1:21:06Speaker 01

  No, it's very, it's very.

• 1:21:08André Duqum?

  Because it's easy to get like too intense about it all too, you know?

• 1:21:11Speaker 01

  No, it's paranoia. You can get paranoid and you wouldn't say anything to anybody. And then you realize the choice and no choice is still a choice. And then you're just freaking out. I don't know, man. Like, I'm a big believer in letting it happen without being too lofty. It's like the jokes show up. They just show up. Like, you're hanging out, somebody says something, you say something, something happens. They just show up and you're, you really are sort of in service of it. So there might even be a joke that doesn't adhere to what I'm saying. But you're like, but it's what showed up and here we are. Because you could argue, I, I think the drunk driving one, I wouldn't do that if that showed up.

• 1:21:54Speaker 01

  But you're so much less involved than you think you are, the more you do it. Once you build up your comedian persona, then you really do just wait for it. You know, you get an Amazon package and you don't even remember what it was. That's what it is, that's what it's like to write a joke. You're just opening it and you're like, oh, tweezers. You know, like, so you just show up for it, then you try it, then the crowd tells you if it's right. You're really just an intermediary to the whole process.

• 1:22:27André Duqum?

  How do you think, because I, and a buddy of yours, Rainn Wilson, we've also had on the show, and we talked about this too, and how it's pretty pervasive throughout the comedic scene, and different comedians, through Robin Williams, through so many different people, who laughter and comedy was a way to behaviorally compensate for a lot of deep wounds. And you see, a lot of comedians are deeply traumatized, but it's like, it's also what made them so good at what they do. And of course, it does not have to be from that place. But I'm curious the difference in how you see laughter coming from a place of trauma versus not.

• 1:23:06Speaker 01

  It's an interesting question. You know, Robin Williams always said he was the exception, that he had a good childhood. And I always, if he were with us, I would be like, are you sure? Not that you weren't traumatized, but like, all of us were screaming naked babies. You know what I mean? Like, everybody, nobody gets in here clean and easy. It's always weird. Nobody had a spotless junior high experience. Like, there's just no way. So it always stood out to me that Robin Williams was like, I wasn't, I had a happy childhood. I'm like, I believe, you know, cumulatively, you did. But everyone has these spots. They're unavoidable.

• 1:23:51Speaker 01

  I think at the beginning, when I was starting out, I was much more of a, please laugh at me, so I will be in control of reality, that I will control how you're laughing at me, instead of laughing at me like, in a shameful way. I forget who said, it might have been Marc Maron, he's like, comedians become comedians to control how people laugh at them. Because there's bad laughing at us that hurt our feelings, and then we're like, well, I'm going to change that. And that's a good feeling. And then there's even like, my household growing up didn't get along, so I learned how to be like, a showman. That became like, my strategy to keep things copacetic. So like, here's like, an alcohol infused situation.

• 1:24:35Speaker 01

  And then I just started doing it in clubs. Like, here's an alcohol infused situation. Maybe they don't even want to laugh, and I'm going to turn them, damn it. And then I'll feel safe. I'll actually feel safe and good about myself. And that's lessened as I've done this more and more.

• 1:24:53Speaker 01

  That being said, I don't mind if I'm doing a joke and I'm like, oh, I'm working something out psychologically with this, like this is coming from trauma. I don't mind. I'm like, great.

• 1:25:04André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:05Speaker 01

  But so much more of my earlier stuff was more that way. And now I'm, I'm just feeling a little bit more clean, not clean, but less agenda. I'm not going like, is this okay? I'm going like, do we like this? Instead of like, please tell me I'm all right. Don't get me wrong. When you do poorly, you still sometimes feel like, like I had, sometimes at the end of a weekend, I do five shows and I'll go to bed and I'll just dream that I'm back in church and I'm on stage. This just happened. I'm on, at the pulpit and then the police come in and arrest me. So I still have like, shame and all of these things are still at play. I just think they're steering the ship a little bit less

• 1:25:50Speaker 01

  than they used to. All that to say, if trauma gets you making lots and lots of people happy, what a great thing to do with your trauma, you know?

• 1:25:59André Duqum?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:26:00Speaker 01

  So we'll take it however we can get it.

• 1:26:02André Duqum?

  I love it, man.

• 1:26:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. Like if you, if you're a philanthropist out of guilt, who fucking cares? If you're a leukemia ward in a hospital, who cares? Just send the check. You know what I mean? Like, we need all the help we can get. We need all the laughter we can get. And pain, I think pain is turning it into a joke. People should be so lucky. It's a, it's a wonderful therapy to take something, like my wife left me and I made a TV show about it. So I'm reenacting scenes inspired by things that really happened. I was like, this, this would cost me so much money in therapy, you know, if they were like, let's do a role play and we'll build a set that looked like your old house. And like, you

• 1:26:43Speaker 01

  can talk to this actress that's gonna say things that your wife would have said. And like, that would have been therapy, but instead that was my job? That's a privilege. That's really cool.

• 1:26:54André Duqum?

  This is a good way to look at it, because I think some people might look at it as just a reliving of.

• 1:26:58Speaker 01

  Yes. It wasn't free. Yeah, it wasn't free. It wasn't easy.

• 1:27:02André Duqum?

  That's so good, man. What do you have coming up? Like, what do you foresee the next five, 10 years for you in terms of what you want to do with comedy and?

• 1:27:10Speaker 01

  That's a good question.

• 1:27:11André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:14Speaker 01

  You know, I think we're all, it's a big topic. I think we're all waiting to see what's happening with, with artificial intelligence. I'm simultaneously fascinated by it and also sort of like threatened by it. I think the world, I'm not talking about like mass extinction or anything. I'm just like, I'm open to the idea that in five years or so, the thought of waiting for something, waiting for anything will be preposterous. Like, right now, the model is you wait for me to come up with jokes that I might then tour and come to a city near you and then you can come and watch me.

• 1:27:59Speaker 01

  I'm not saying that'll go away, but I do think that it's possible that my daughter will grow up in a world where the thought that we used to wait for Saturday Night, Saturday Night Live, to hear the jokes is gonna be, we're already kind of there. Twitter is already, here's the jokes. But I think we might just have AI companions, like another species, that is just with us. You tell us the kind of stuff you like. Like Netflix, even Netflix, it'll seem so stupid. Like that you used to watch this show and then it might guess that you would like the show. Talking about an, an, an intelligence that would know you so thoroughly that it would know exactly how to make you laugh while it's happening.

• 1:28:43Speaker 01

  So it would sit next to you while you watch the Super Bowl and it would make the jokes that you used to wait, you know, for Saturday Night Live. It would just make them. Or it would just, instead, like people are already doing it, chatting with ChatGPT on long car rides. Instead of, I still think podcasts and things like podcasts and I think stand up and things like stand up will still exist. I just think there will also be another thing that is just kind of like. Mainlining it all the time. Because I, you know, I was just shooting a movie last week and, you know, you guys have your setup here and it's nice and streamlined, but like, we had to, it was five pages of me talking, but we had to shoot every character,

• 1:29:28Speaker 01

  singles of every character that was listening to me talking. Took 12 hours. Then we turned around on me. So we're like, setting up the lights for some guy just going like, I was like, wow. I don't mind it because that's, I'm used to it, but I think my daughter will go like, what? Like, just have the thing make it like, and it can already do it. Like, just give me a shot of that guy listening. So I don't know. And I'm okay with not knowing. If, if things stay recognizable, which I have an intuition that they will, amidst all the change, there'll still be like a, a current in between.

• 1:30:13Speaker 01

  I would like to keep doing stand-up because I think the live experience potentially will become even more valuable.

• 1:30:20André Duqum?

  For sure, yeah, than person's stuff.

• 1:30:21Speaker 01

  And precious. I sometimes say this on stage, you think you're here to hear the new jokes. We're actually here to be together. It's like the end of Avatar. We're just here to have your elbows next to someone else's elbow laughing in the same direction is a really nourishing experience. And I don't ever want to not do that. I think that's really, of all the things, like my podcast has changed, you know, evolved and all the, all the things that I've done and TV shows come and go. But I, I've never not done stand-up and I'm proud of that. And I think that's the thing I'm the best at. So I think I'll, I'll keep doing stand-up.

• 1:31:03Speaker 01

  I'm curious if, uh, I'll keep doing the podcast and I'd like to write and create things, but like, it'll be interesting to see what those things are. I'll say this, because I'm interested in your take. I've had a lot of ideas for shows about spirituality and I'm like, I don't know. The test is would I watch it, right? So let's, you take a show and it's set in like, in a seminary, let's say. I wouldn't watch it. That, like, I'm the test. If there was a new show, guy in a seminary, I'd be like, they're probably gonna get it all wrong. And like, it's impossible to please the wide spectrum of spiritual beliefs out there. So I'm always like, I don't know if there's a way to do this type of conversation as a show.

• 1:31:49Speaker 01

  But I'm always like, keeping my feelers out.

• 1:31:52André Duqum?

  Do you want to?

• 1:31:53Speaker 01

  And I'm not even sure if I want to. Now that I'm 46, that's, that's a much bigger question for me.

• 1:31:58André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:58Speaker 01

  When you're in your twenties, you're like, what can I do?

• 1:32:00André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:00Speaker 01

  What will they let me do? And now I'm like, I don't know if I want to do.

• 1:32:04André Duqum?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I hear that.

• 1:32:06Speaker 01

  I don't know if that needs to exist, or if it's just me wanting to be on a TV show.

• 1:32:12André Duqum?

  Well, it's interesting to see how our skill set and our knowledge and our experience culminates into some sort of offering. And for you, that's been your stand up and comedy and podcasts and a lot of different things. And I've always noticed in my personal life, when there's like an itch of like, an area or an aspect that I feel like I really want to create, that I'm not creating, kind of gnaws at you a little bit.

• 1:32:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:36André Duqum?

  Yeah, I guess it's, it's an interesting question for you to see if you, you're getting that cut fulfilled and, and the different avenues you're currently doing. Are you having enough of those conversations in your podcast currently? Are you, you know, infusing that enough in your stand up where you feel good about it? Seems like you are, but you know.

• 1:32:50Speaker 01

  Right. No, you just said it. I love that because I am waiting for the thing that gets you out of bed. Like you wake up at 3am and you have to write it down. And I still have those, but I wanted to come from that place. I want to stay receptive and be like, oh, that's the thing I'm supposed to do. But in the meantime, being a father is so.

• 1:33:15Speaker 01

  It's just so much of my life and I wouldn't, I wouldn't change that. But like, it's such a different game from just kind of like being bored and just wishing.

• 1:33:25André Duqum?

  In your twenties, just, you know, throwing shit at the wall.

• 1:33:28Speaker 01

  And, and like, when they're like, you're gonna go to New York for four months to shoot this show and it's gonna be like 14 hour days. You're like, great. And now I would be like, huh. I'd be like.

• 1:33:43André Duqum?

  Decisions have a lot more gravity.

• 1:33:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, that's, that's one of the best things about being a parent, especially like as a comedian.

• 1:33:52Speaker 01

  I'm not saying it's narcissistic, but I'm saying there's a lot of me. And then when you have a baby, it's really healthy to go like, it is not about me anymore. And even the comedy changes are like, we're doing it for, for the audience and I don't know.

• 1:34:10André Duqum?

  I could imagine it would be immensely clarifying when making those decisions. If I'm gonna spend time away from my family, doing something that it really has to be epic.

• 1:34:20Speaker 01

  That's exactly right. Yeah.

• 1:34:22André Duqum?

  What I will say is that in getting to prepare for this podcast, get more familiar with your work. I see you come most alive when you talk about what we've talked about in this podcast.

• 1:34:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's true.

• 1:34:32André Duqum?

  You know, you, you love and have loved speaking directly to these.

• 1:34:36Speaker 01

  I do.

• 1:34:37André Duqum?

  And.

• 1:34:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:38André Duqum?

  I think the world always can use more people doing what makes them come fully alive, you know, so.

• 1:34:43Speaker 01

  I really, I appreciate that. That's really caring. I appreciate that. Cause I'm like, I don't know if I would like to write another book and maybe we'll see. Cause I got that Shrek thing. You know, I do think like, even as we're talking about these things, I'm like, when you, it was so generous of you to be like, oh, I know you like talking about the prodigal son. I'm like, oh yeah. So there are kind of like the, the skeleton of, of another book. But sometimes I go like. And this isn't false humility. I'm like, but you could just read Rupert, like just read him like.

• 1:35:13André Duqum?

  It's different though.

• 1:35:14Speaker 01

  I know, I know, I know. And he wouldn't agree with that either. Yeah, that's ridiculous. But like, yeah, there's a value. People have to hear it different ways.

• 1:35:24André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:25Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 1:35:25André Duqum?

  Yeah, I think we're all, we're all bridges to different people in different ways, you know, and you make stuff palatable and accessible in a way that maybe someone like Rupert or me or Chelsea or anybody, you know, who's doing this work in different ways can.

• 1:35:38Speaker 01

  Well, that's what I've noticed is there's more people like, no matter who you are, there's more people exactly like you than you've ever dreamt of. Cause I was like, oh, evangelical divorced when I was 20 and married first girl I ever knew. This did mushrooms and found this and found Ram Dass. And there's so many clones of me. I meet them all over the country and they say the same thing. They're like, I got married when I was 22. My wife let me when I was 20 and then I found mushrooms and I found Ram Dass. And I'm like, what? So like the, the universality in being very specific. So maybe I will, I would like to.

• 1:36:14André Duqum?

  I will say like a lot of these stories and like people's path, like your, your life story might rhyme with how they've lived and come to different realizations too. But your way, you're like, what's unique is our perspective and our take on things, you know? And so it's like, somebody else would explain it completely differently than you. And I think you have, it's inherently valuable, the difference of perspective. So if you have a book that you end up writing around this, I'm, I'm stoked.

• 1:36:40Speaker 01

  Oh, I appreciate that.

• 1:36:41André Duqum?

  Have you back on?

• 1:36:42Speaker 01

  Then I'll come back on it. I'll plug it and I'll be like, you told me to do this. Then it flops. I'll be like, you told me to do this. No, I, sometimes I think about that. I'm like, why am I not just doing that? Cause then I'd be at home. You know what I mean? Like I do go out and try and sell TV shows and movies and stuff. And I'm like, I could just do what I'm, what I love to do and that would be at my house.

• 1:37:05Speaker 01

  So we'll see.

• 1:37:06André Duqum?

  I feel you on that. I love doing this here because it's also at my house and I get to be a hermit.

• 1:37:11Speaker 01

  The best.

• 1:37:12André Duqum?

  Yeah, I like it. Not for everyone, though, but.

• 1:37:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:16André Duqum?

  Did, yeah, was it, was this conversation weird enough for you?

• 1:37:19Speaker 01

  It was, yeah. What am I looking at? Who is this?

• 1:37:22André Duqum?

  This guy, artist Autumn Sky painted it. It's an original. It's called The Gift of the Magi. And he's kind of holding a bowl of frankincense and myrrh. It's actually burned into the painting, which is really cool. It's like an offering. It's like a gift, which is what I strive for this podcast to be. And so I saw it and I just resonated with it.

• 1:37:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's trippy.

• 1:37:42André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:43Speaker 01

  I like it, though.

• 1:37:43André Duqum?

  I've never actually talked about it on the podcast.

• 1:37:45Speaker 01

  Really?

• 1:37:45André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:46Speaker 01

  Oh, nice. Oh, I assumed everybody has. That's very cool. Not everybody can do that.

• 1:37:52Speaker 01

  The geometry at the top that just immediately rings true. That looks like Shrek to me.

• 1:38:00André Duqum?

  Draw it.

• 1:38:01Speaker 01

  I can't, though.

• 1:38:04André Duqum?

  Dude, this conversation has been awesome. And is there anything else alive that you feel like you haven't spoken to that you'd like to?

• 1:38:10Speaker 01

  It's funny, I just did my own podcast today and that's what I said. I was like, are you good? Is there anything you hoped we talked about that we didn't talk about? And no, I feel great.

• 1:38:19André Duqum?

  Well, man, again, I've said it, but I really appreciate your understanding and articulation around all these aspects of the human journey. And I think already the audience will agree. It's just, it's super refreshing and keep on making everybody laugh along the way.

• 1:38:35Speaker 01

  Thanks, man.

• 1:38:36André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:37Speaker 01

  I'm really grateful you had me on. Appreciate it.

• 1:38:39André Duqum?

  This is fun. Everybody, thank you for tuning into this episode of the Know This Out Podcast. Let us know what you think those swear words were earlier. No, let us know.

• 1:38:51Speaker 01

  Yo, you have to bleep them and people can guess. It'll be the weirdest comments of all time. You have to pixelate my mouth, too. I have a big job to do.

• 1:39:00André Duqum?

  It's okay. We got it. Editing team's on it. Thanks for coming on this ride. Until next time, be well.

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