Pod Insights Killer Stories with Harvey Guillén Ed Gein Pt. 2 About this episode Hi listeners! After this week, we'll be taking a short break for the holiday. We'll be back in December with a special series to close out the year. Until then, here's Ed Gein Pt. 2.
After murdering two women, robbing graves, and decorating his home with human body parts, Ed Gein found himself arrested and in the media’s spotlight. We look into his trial, institutionalization, and the public’s fascination with him… a fascination that still lives on today.
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Transcript 7,108 words · 12 speakers
0:00 Speaker 00 Hey listeners, producer Chelsea back again to share the final part of our Ed Gein deep dive. As a reminder, these episodes originally aired in 2018, but with Gein in the media again, it felt like a good time to bring them back. Today, in part two, we're following Gein through his arrest, trial, all the way up to his death in 1984. After this week, we'll be taking a short break, and we'll be back in your feeds in December.
0:26 Speaker 01 Due to the graphic nature of this killer's crimes, listener discretion is advised. This episode includes dramatizations and discussions of murder and assault that some people may find offensive. We advise extreme caution for children under 13.
0:42 Speaker 02 Here's a joke. Why did they have to keep the heat up in Ed Gein's house? The punchline? So the furniture won't get goosebumps. This was one of the many children's jokes circulating merely days after Ed Gein's 1957 arrest for the murder of Bernice Warden in Plainfield, Wisconsin. These quips became such a hot trend in the state that people gave them a name: Geiners. Gein's crimes stirred their own media fascination and uproar in his hometown of Plainfield and beyond. As we talked about last week, the 51-year-old handyman murdered two local women, robbed at least eight graves from 1947 until 1952, and decorated his home with various body
1:27 Speaker 02 parts of many corpses. This week, we'll explore Gein's trial, his institutionalization, and the public fascination surrounding his arrest. His crimes made him the inspiration for several movie villains: Buffalo Bill and Hannibal Lecter in The Silence of the Lambs, Norman Bates in Psycho, and Leatherface in the Texas Chainsaw Massacre.
1:49 Speaker 01 Upon Gein's arrest in 1957, psychologists diagnosed him with sexual psychopathy and schizophrenia. Many people have labeled him as a necrophile and cannibal over the years, but Gein has denied ever eating or having intercourse with a corpse.
2:05 Speaker 02 Gein collected the heads and vaginas of dead women. He used their skin, as well as other body parts, to create a woman's suit that he could wear. Gein also used bones, skin, and skulls as waistpins, soup bowls, and lampshades.
2:23 Speaker 01 Tavern owner Mary Hogan disappeared on December 8th, 1954, and Gein often joked about it with the townspeople of Plainfield. He'd tell them, quote, "She's not missing, she's down at the farm right now." After his arrest in 1957, Gein's crimes were no laughing matter, but the Geiner jokes helped the people of Plainfield cope with the fact that such a disturbed killer had lived among them for so long.
2:49 Speaker 02 The press and townspeople immediately assumed that Gein was guilty of his heinous crimes if those jokes and nicknames were any indication. As for the criminal justice system, though, it would take more than a decade in court for the state of Wisconsin to formally charge Gein with first-degree murder.
3:12 Speaker 02 Hi, I'm Greg Paulson, and this is Serial Killers, a podcast diving into the minds and motives of some of the most notorious serial killers. Today, we're going to continue a deep dive into the life of Ed Gein, the Butcher of Plainfield, a murderer, grave robber, and the inspiration behind many notorious movie villains. I'm here with my co-host Vanessa Richardson. Vanessa's not a licensed psychologist or psychiatrist, but she's done a lot of research for the show.
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3:50 Speaker 02 And don't forget to subscribe while you're there, because a new episode comes out every Monday. You can also find us on Facebook and Instagram at Parcast, and on Twitter at Parcast Network.
4:03 Speaker 03 Observe: The North American Dad. 50s, great polo collection. He enters his vehicle information on Carvana. An offer appears in minutes. Remarkable. He squints, reads it again, smiles, and says, "Dang, that's a good offer." The highest form of approval. No haggling, no hassle. No one called him "boss." He's still on the couch. Astonishing. Sell your car today on carvana.com. Pickup fees may apply.
4:34 Speaker 04 Hey Spotify listeners! When you travel with American Airlines, you'll enjoy comfort and convenience at every altitude. Before takeoff, unwind in the Admirals Club Lounge with curated self-serve offerings of hearty bites and refreshments. In-flight, stay connected with high-speed Wi-Fi, sponsored by AT&T. Your journey is designed to feel easy from the moment you check in to the moment you arrive. No matter where you're going, American gets you there. Book now at AA.com.
4:59 Speaker 05 Stonefire Non is inspired by ancient traditions, baked on stone at blazing high heat. But it's perfect for your new traditions, too. I love putting out Stonefire Non with dips, for board game night.
5:09 Speaker 06 Or with cinnamon and sugar, for my book club gals.
5:12 Speaker 07 We enjoy Stonefire Non. Before the ritual summoning of the Nameless Ones. We invoke the Nameless Ones, they shall not be named.
5:19 Speaker 08 And we, uh, do Stonefire pizza parties for the kids. I'm really scared right now.
5:25 Speaker 09 Stonefire: From Our Tradition to Yours. Together, we on.
5:34 Speaker 02 On November 16th, 1957, Ed Gein shot his second victim, Bernice Warden, with a 22-caliber rifle. She was the beloved owner of a hardware store in Plainfield. And she resembled Gein's mother, Augusta. Like his mother, Warden owned a successful store, and she had her own son, Frank. Later that night, on November 16th, 1957, Gein was arrested for the murder of Warden. He just remained silent. No one knew why, and it frustrated both the police and the public.
6:05 Speaker 01 Gein's silence especially frustrated Plainfield Sheriff Art Schley. On the night of November 16th, 1957, the sheriff investigated Gein's farm for six hours and was horrified by what he found: shrunken heads, skull soup bowls, and skin-decorated furniture. When Schley got off work around 2:30 a.m., he didn't go directly home to his family. He decided to stop by Gein's county jail cell.
6:33 Speaker 02 Schley decided to take things into his own hands. Schley stormed into the jail cell, grabbed Gein by the shoulders, and began slamming him against the wall. Schley hoped that he could violently coerce a confession out of Gein, but it didn't work. Ed Gein seemed shaken up, but his silence continued, until about 20 hours later. Gein confessed to Warden's murder at 11:00 a.m. on November 18, 1957. It's unknown what prompted him to finally speak, but Gein seemed ready and willing to talk about Warden's murder, as well as the rest of the crimes. First, he talked about Warden's murder, and claimed that he shot her by accident.
7:14 Speaker 02 Gein told District Attorney Earl Colleen that he went to her shop on November 16 to buy a half gallon of antifreeze. Gein claimed he didn't remember shooting Warden because he was in a daze. He said that he had been testing the fit of ammo and a rifle in a store. He claimed to vaguely remember that he loaded the rifle. Gein theorized that the gun may have accidentally fired at Warden.
7:37 Speaker 01 In a medical evaluation of Gein, hospital social worker Kenneth Colwell wrote that Gein thought Warden was a woman with a bad reputation and questionable morals. According to Gein, Warden had met her husband as he was dating another woman. Mr. Warden fell in love with Bernice, and subsequently left the other woman, who later committed suicide. Years later, Mr. Warden died of blood dyscrasia, which Gein believed to be punishment for Bernice Warden's earlier behavior.
8:11 Speaker 02 Gein may not have recalled shooting Warden, but he remembered what he had done with her body. He told DA Colleen, quote, "My memory is a little vague, but I do remember dragging her across the floor. I remember loading her body in the truck. Then I drove the truck out on the east road. At the intersection where 51 and 73 separate east of Plainfield, I drove the truck up in the pine trees. Then I walked to town and got in my car, and I drove it out there. Loaded her body in the back of the car, and also the cash register. I loaded the cash register in the truck when I put her body in there. Then I drove out to my farm and took the body out of the car, and hung it up by the heels in my woodshed." End quote.
8:56 Speaker 02 It's clear that Gein recalled many of the details from the night he shot Warden, but he claimed that he was unable to remember himself pulling the trigger. During the interrogation, he claimed to the police that he had not killed anyone else. Gein would later admit to the second murder of Mary Hogan after police found her face in a paper sack in his home. It was skinned from her skull and preserved with oil. Vanessa, was Gein simply deflecting from the cops? Or is there a psychological reason his memory could have blacked out during those killings?
9:29 Speaker 01 Gein could have been deflecting. He had told police that his daze was similar to the daze he used to fall under when he exhumed women's corpses from graves. Even in modern times, you'll often read in media reports that the suspect in question said they were in a daze as they committed the crime. Modern psychologists have found this to be extremely common. In several studies about the memories of murderers, a significant number of the killers had no memory of committing their own crimes. There are several possible causes for this. It could be dissociative amnesia, when a person forgets a traumatic or criminal experience after it happens. The suspect could also have been in a dissociative state, which means they would have been in an altered state of consciousness during the violent event.
10:14 Speaker 02 But Gein was diagnosed with sexual psychopathy and schizophrenia. Does this mean Gein really did have amnesia about the murder? Or was he lying?
10:22 Speaker 01 Well, it's definitely possible he was lying. Psychologists have found an interesting link between diagnosed psychopaths, like Gein, and this type of alleged amnesia. Due to their manipulative and deceptive tendencies, psychopaths are very likely to falsely claim to have some kind of amnesia if they believe that it can get them out of trouble. In fact, dissociative amnesia is less common in those who have diagnosed psychopathy. Psychopaths can often vividly recall their memories of violence and, like Gein, seemingly lie in order to avoid any consequences. That could explain Gein's daze claim, as well as why he remembered such specific details from the night of Warden's murder.
11:07 Speaker 02 In the United States, the Miranda Warning famously states that criminal suspects, "have the right to remain silent" and "the right to an attorney," during a police interrogation. The Miranda rights became law following the Miranda versus Arizona Supreme Court decision in 1966. Unfortunately for Gein, that was nearly a decade after his initial arrest in 1957. At the time of his confession and interrogation, Gein did not have an attorney. He obtained an attorney named William Belter at an unknown point before his arraignment. This is important to note because it's been speculated that this may have affected Gein's interrogation process.
11:50 Speaker 02 Police Andy A. Colleen worried that he was being a little too agreeable during the interrogation process and confessing to crimes he did not commit just to be nice. Schley said the following about Gein: "He's got a good appetite and never talks back to anyone."
12:06 Speaker 01 Central State Hospital for the Criminally Insane Social Worker Kenneth Colwell wrote in his report that Gein had "trouble distinguishing between what he remembers and what he was told." Crime lab polygraph specialist Joe Wilimowski noted that Gein was cheerful and eager to please during his interrogation. Wilimowski even took special precautions not to put words in Gein's mouth.
12:31 Speaker 02 But still, Gein agreed to odd claims during his interrogation, which further fueled rumors in the town. For example, Wilimowski asked Gein, "Would you ever put on a pair of women's panties over your body and then put some of these vaginas over your penis?" Gein's answer was, "That could be."
12:54 Speaker 02 In November of 1957, Gein offered to show Schley where he buried bones around his home, but then he refused when he saw how many reporters surrounded his farm. The press became so hungry for information about Gein that the reporters often interfered with the investigation. This becomes a never-ending pattern. The public and the media would continue to entangle themselves and intervene in the pursuit of justice in the case against Gein. D.A. Colleen attempted to have a "news blackout", so potential jurors would not be biased, but it didn't work. Belter handpicked six reporters for an exclusive sit-down interview with Gein, but instead, a mob of journalists showed up.
13:37 Speaker 02 Schley canceled the interview and told the media to leave.
13:48 Speaker 02 By November 23rd, 1957, the Geener jokes were very popular, but they also helped spread untrue rumors about Gein. One Geener took inspiration from Clement Moore's "A Visit from St. Nicholas", an excerpt from the rhyme. Quote, "Old Ed pulled the trigger and Mary fell dead. He took his old axe and cut off her head. Then he took his hacksaw and cut her in two. One half for hamburger, the other for stew." End quote. The facts in those lines are not entirely accurate. Gein did shoot Hogan with a .32 caliber pistol, but he has denied using a saw while exhuming bodies. And Gein has denied eating any of his victims.
14:32 Speaker 01 Wisconsin Diagnostic Center Chief Psychologist Dr. Rudolph Mathias compared the wisecracks to, quote, "the jokes exchanged among soldiers who are going into battle." Psychiatrist Dr. George D. Arnt traveled to Plainfield to study the humor phenomenon, and found that the jokes were a helpful coping mechanism for the residents of the town. Laughing at these morbid jokes helped ease the anxiety felt by the townspeople after Gein's atrocious crimes were revealed.
15:01 Speaker 02 It's understandable. Gein's crimes turned Plainfield into a spectacle. Tourists and townspeople labeled Gein's home "a house of horrors", and they'd visit it, hoping to get a glimpse inside. Reporters from national publications like Time and Life magazines descended on the town within a week of Gein's arrest, on November 16th, 1957. As word spread about Gein's crimes, rumors took on a life of their own. Some townspeople claimed that police found Gein's death list of farmers' wives that he wanted to kill. Others believed that Gein had an unseen partner in crime with whom he robbed graves and mutilated corpses. A woman named Adele Watkins claimed to the press
15:44 Speaker 02 that she was Gein's girlfriend for 20 years. None of those rumors or claims turned out to be true.
15:50 Speaker 01 Gein also had nicknames in the press. Reporters called him "Gastly Gein" due to his emaciated appearance and "The Butcher of Plainfield," referencing his misdeeds with corpses.
16:02 Speaker 02 Both the police and the media were puzzled by the body parts found in Gein's home. They had assumed the heads, noses, and genitals found in the house belonged to Gein's other murder victims, which is why he became a suspect in the respective disappearances of Wisconsin residents Evelyn Hartley, George Jean Wechler, and Victor Travis. But Gein denied killing anyone else. He told police that he robbed graves for the body parts, but DA Colleen and the police did not believe that Gein was also a grave robber. Portage County Sheriff Herbert Wunerski was one of Gein's biggest skeptics. Wunerski identified Mary Hogan's preserved-skin face in Gein's home and told the press that
16:45 Speaker 02 his discovery supported his belief that, quote, "Ed Gein never robbed a grave in his life."
16:51 Speaker 01 In addition, the townspeople questioned the logic of how Gein alone was able to dig up caskets, remove corpse body parts, and re-bury them within a few hours, and without leaving a trace of disturbance. They also felt that grave robbing didn't seem to fit Gein's meek personality. Grocery store owner Guile Ellis said, quote, "I don't think he'd ever had ambition enough to open a grave." Plainfield Cemetery sexton Pat Dana didn't believe Gein's confession either. Dana said he never noticed any disturbances on the graves during his time as caretaker of the cemetery. He noted that the graveyard was, quote, "too busy" in the summer with mischievous teens who would surely notice a grave robbery.
17:35 Speaker 01 Dana observed that the ground got very hard in the wintertime, making it very difficult to dig in cold weather.
17:41 Speaker 02 Plainfield citizens began to pressure DA Colleen to prove Gein's graveyard crimes. The district attorney told reporters, quote, "I want no part in opening any graves to prove anything. Just think how the poor relatives feel," end quote. But on November 25th, 1957, DA Colleen gave in to the demands. He told reporters that two graves in the Plainfield Cemetery would be opened once permission was obtained from the deceased people's respective families. Gein provided Colleen with a list of, quote, "eight or nine names." Colleen chose to exhume the graves of Eleanor Adams and Mabel Everson.
18:25 Speaker 01 The crew decided to exhume Adams first. She was buried right next to Gein's deceased parents, Augusta and George. DA Colleen thought if Gein did rob a grave, it would be Adams, due to her proximity to Augusta's resting place.
18:40 Speaker 02 It took Dana and his assistant, Don Walner, only about an hour of digging to reach Adams' wood coffin. Colleen and Schley noticed that the cover had been split into two, lengthwise. Dana and Walner lifted the lid of the coffin. They did not see Eleanor Adams' body in the coffin, or any of her body parts. What they found in the coffin was a 12-inch crowbar. They found that Mabel Everson's casket also had a broken lid. There was no body left inside either. After the two-and-a-half-hour ordeal, DA Colleen declared, quote, "As far as I'm concerned, this verifies Geen's story."
19:22 Speaker 04 Hey Spotify listeners! When you travel with American Airlines, you'll enjoy comfort and convenience at every altitude. Before takeoff, unwind in the Admirals Club Lounge with curated self-serve offerings of hearty bites and refreshments. In flight, stay connected with high-speed Wi-Fi. Sponsored by AT&T. Your journey is designed to feel easy, from the moment you check in to the moment you arrive. No matter where you're going, American gets you there. Book now at aa.com.
19:47 Speaker 05 Stone Fire Non is inspired by ancient traditions, baked on stone at blazing high heat. But it's perfect for your new traditions, too. I love putting out Stone Fire Non with dips, for board game night.
19:57 Speaker 06 Or with cinnamon and sugar, for my book club gals.
20:00 Speaker 07 We enjoy Stone Fire Non. Before the ritual summoning of the Nameless Ones... We invoke the Nameless Ones, they shall not be named.
20:07 Speaker 08 And we, uh, do Stone Fire Pizza Parties for the kids. I'm really scared right now.
20:13 Speaker 05 Stone Fire: From Our Tradition to Yours.
20:15 Speaker 09 Together, we're on.
20:18 Speaker 02 Ed Gein's polygraph test results were released to the public on November 21, 1957. Wisconsin Crime Lab Director Charles Wilson released a short statement to the media. Wilson said the polygraph concluded that Gein played no role in the disappearances of Wisconsin residents Evelyn Hartley, George Jean Wechler, and Victor Travis. However, we should note here that polygraph tests are not always accurate. The results did show that Gein was responsible for the deaths of Mary Hogan and Bernice Warden. On November 22, 1957, Gein was formally charged with first-degree murder for the death of Bernice Warden by Waschira County Judge Boyd Clark. But what about Gein's other crimes?
21:03 Speaker 02 DA Colleen said Waschira could not afford a lengthy investigation into each of Gein's misdeeds, including the murder of Mary Hogan. Colleen felt that the prosecution had more than enough evidence to convict Gein of Warden's murder. Colleen wanted to solely focus on charging Gein for Warden's murder in order to save the county money from any further investigations. For the murder of Bernice Warden, Gein's attorney, William Belter, entered his client's plea: "Not guilty by reason of insanity."
21:34 Speaker 01 Pleading insanity is formally known as the insanity defense in criminal law. For this purpose, the definition of insanity is a legal term and not the widely-known psychological term.
21:46 Speaker 02 So what is legal insanity, and how is it determined?
21:49 Speaker 01 Contemporary courts judge legal insanity using several tests, which are determined by state law. Back in 1957, Gein was evaluated using the McNaughton Rule. The McNaughton Rule was first established in the British House of Lords in 1843. At Gein's own sanity hearing, Attorney General Honig said Gein would be ruled legally insane if he met the following criteria: One, Gein was unable to assist or confer with his defense attorney; and two, Gein did not know the difference between right and wrong. Wisconsin state law requires a diagnosis of mental illness in order to use the insanity defense. It requires proof that the defendant had not been able to tell right from wrong due
22:34 Speaker 01 to mental illness.
22:35 Speaker 02 Gein's insanity plea caused a bit of an uproar among the people of Plainfield. They feared that Gein would avoid any kind of punishment for his crimes by instead entering a mental hospital. DA Colleen tried to reassure the town that, quote, "Ed Gein would never walk the streets of Plainfield again."
22:54 Speaker 01 Gein's insanity hearing took place on January 6, 1958. Three psychiatrists testified in court. Central State Hospital Superintendent Dr. Edward F. Schubert described Gein as "a chronic schizophrenic who could not be held criminally responsible for his actions." His reasoning was that schizophrenics can act rationally for prolonged periods of time while being psychotic at others. Dr. Milton Miller agreed with that assessment in his testimony. He concluded that Gein lived a divided life for more than a decade. He was a meek and shy handyman in public and a grave-robbing murderer in private. For Dr. Miller, that was solid proof of Gein's legal insanity. In the final testimony, Dr.
23:39 Speaker 01 Edward M. Burns agreed with Dr. Miller and Dr. Schubert about Gein's mental illness. Dr. Burns, however, noticed that Gein was able to confer with his lawyer and concluded that Gein was "just barely legally sane."
23:56 Speaker 02 Judge Bundy called Gein's insanity ruling "one of the hardest decisions he had faced in his career." The judge said in his final ruling, quote, "I can't see my opinion can be anything other than to find this defendant insane," end quote. Judge Bundy sentenced Gein to Central State Hospital in Wapon, Wisconsin for, quote, "an indeterminate term of commitment," end quote.
24:24 Speaker 02 The people of Plainfield were not satisfied with the result. Eleanor Adams' husband Floyd sued Jean for "wantonly disturbing his wife's grave" and claimed "mental suffering in the amount of $5,000." Frank Warden and his sister Miriam also filed a lawsuit against Jean in the amount of $57,800. Judge Boyd Clark mandated that Jean's farm and belongings be auctioned off in order to pay off the claims made against him. However, Jean's house mysteriously burned down after many townspeople protested the auction amid concerns about the farm turning into a museum.
25:05 Speaker 02 The auctions still occurred as planned on March 30, 1958, and the sale of Jean's personal items made enough money to cover the claims against Jean. Concerned citizens of Plainfield held a town meeting in March 1958 to figure out how to appeal the decision. They got Portage County District Attorney John Haka to ask Wisconsin Attorney General Stuart Honig if the state would consider an appeal. Honig wrote back in response that Judge Bundy's decision wasn't the final word in the case. Honig wrote back, "The order merely holds that the defendant is not competent to stand trial at the present time. Upon his recovery, if that should ever occur, the defendant may still be brought to trial."
25:50 Speaker 02 Vanessa, what is the likelihood of recovery for a person with schizophrenia and sexual psychopathy like Jean?
25:57 Speaker 01 Well, it's possible to recover from schizophrenic episodes, but the disease itself needs to be maintained. The National Alliance on Mental Illness estimates that half of 2 million Americans with schizophrenia can recover significantly from schizophrenic episodes if they receive treatment. However, studies also show that about 20% of schizophrenia patients on medications will relapse within a year after successful treatment of an acute episode. In 1952, Parisian surgeon Henri Laboury convinced psychiatrists to use chlorpromazine, a tranquilizer drug, to help schizophrenia patients. It became the first drug identified to treat the mental illness and was considered a huge
26:42 Speaker 01 advancement in psychiatry. In 1954, chlorpromazine was approved by the US Food and Drug Administration. As for Gein, there's no record that he took chlorpromazine or any medications at all. Central State Hospital staff described him as an obedient patient, who did not require any tranquilizing medications. Dr. Schubert even called Gein a "model patient." He said, quote, "If all of our patients were like him, we'd have no trouble at all."
27:12 Speaker 02 By all accounts, it seemed like Gein enjoyed being committed to Central State Hospital. He also got along with everyone, although sometimes he leered at the female nurses. He ate three meals a day and even gained some weight on his formerly thin frame. He made arts and crafts as part of the occupational therapy program and built a ham radio. Gein told Wisconsin's then-governor-elect John Reynolds, quote, "I'm happy here. It's a good place." Then, Gein lowered the volume of his voice and said, "Some of the people here are pretty disturbed, though."
27:47 Speaker 01 Despite his newfound happiness, Dr. Schubert said, "I doubt if Mr. Gein will ever change." Because of the media and the public's never-ending interest in Gein, the doctors at Central State Hospital closely monitored his progress. Every six months, staff psychiatrists evaluated Gein as to whether or not he was fit to stand trial.
28:08 Speaker 02 Dr. Schubert assured the public that even if Gein was found suitable for trial, the murderer would, quote, "Either be found insane and returned to the hospital, or be found guilty and sent to prison." The doctors' expert opinion would be tested in 1968, when Gein would finally stand trial.
28:29 Speaker 04 Hey Spotify listeners! When you travel with American Airlines, you'll enjoy comfort and convenience at every altitude. Before takeoff, unwind in the Admirals Club Lounge with curated self-serve offerings of hearty bites and refreshments. In flight, stay connected with high-speed Wi-Fi, sponsored by AT&T. Your journey is designed to feel easy from the moment you check in to the moment you arrive. No matter where you're going, American gets you there. Book now at aa.com.
28:54 Speaker 05 Stonefire Non is inspired by ancient traditions, baked on stone at blazing high heat. But it's perfect for your new traditions, too. I love putting out Stonefire Non with dips for board game night.
29:04 Speaker 06 Or with cinnamon and sugar for my book club gals.
29:07 Speaker 07 We enjoy Stonefire Non. Before the ritual summoning of the Nameless Ones. We invoke the Nameless Ones, they shall not be named.
29:14 Speaker 08 And we do Stonefire pizza parties for the kids. I'm really scared right now.
29:20 Speaker 05 Stonefire, from our tradition to yours.
29:23 Speaker 09 Together, we on.
29:27 Speaker 02 From 1958 until 1968, Ed Gein remained in Central State Hospital. He was completely unaware that the outside world's fascination with his crimes had inspired a novel and a classic Alfred Hitchcock film called Psycho.
29:53 Speaker 02 In 1957, writer Robert Bloch had moved from Milwaukee to Waiuga, Wisconsin, which is located 30 miles from Plainfield. He became captivated by the rumors and news articles circulating about Gein, and Bloch began writing. In 1959, Bloch published the novel Psycho, which features the villain Norman Bates, a mother-obsessed murderer inspired by Gein. The novel was adapted into the iconic Hitchcock film Psycho and was released in theaters in 1960.
30:24 Speaker 10 Mother, my mother. What is her phrase?
30:30 Speaker 10 She isn't quite herself today.
30:33 Speaker 02 No one really knows if Gein ever saw or heard of the movie that he inspired. The Central State Hospital staff kept him well-guarded from constant interview requests from reporters, sociologists, and fans. Yes, you heard that right, Gein had fans. He received the occasional fan letter asking for a lock of his hair. Vanessa, why would someone be a fan of a serial killer?
30:56 Speaker 01 Well, criminals get a certain amount of notoriety, especially when they receive as much press coverage as Gein did. This attention turns them into celebrities in the eyes of some people, leading to further fascination.
31:08 Speaker 02 Still, Gein's most important interaction was with the Central State Hospital staff, when they evaluated his suitability to stand trial every six months.
31:18 Speaker 01 In January 1968, Dr. Schubert sent a letter to Circuit Judge Robert Galmar. In the letter, Dr. Schubert said that he and his staff found that Gein was finally competent enough to go to court and understand the charges against him. This enabled prosecutors to reopen Gein's case.
31:37 Speaker 02 Gein's name returned to newspaper headlines. Plainfield townspeople began protesting again. Some people went around in jest and talked about starting a "Gein Defense Fund" to help him get a "new suit, new shoes, and a shovel."
31:54 Speaker 02 At age 62, Gein reported to court on January 22, 1968, for preliminary proceedings, and his appearance shocked the people of Plainfield. He had gained a significant amount of weight. He no longer looked like the emaciated, ghastly Gein from 10 years before. He appeared fully prepared for court, but Gein was not ready for the media swarm that greeted him during the trial. Reporters remained in the courtroom when the trial was in session, and they overwhelmed Gein with questions during recess. The only question he was able to answer for them was how to correctly pronounce his name.
32:33 Speaker 02 Gein's trial finally began on November 7, 1968, after nine months of numerous preliminary motions, brief filings, and various legal maneuvers by both sides. His team of defense attorneys was led by William Belter, who originally represented Gein after his 1957 arrest. Belter quit his job as an assistant district attorney in Washere County to take Gein's case again. Judge Galmar presided over the trial and granted the defense team's request to not have a jury. The proceeding was a bifurcated trial, split into two phases. In the first phase, Gein would be charged with the first-degree murder of Beatrice Warden. If he were found guilty,
33:16 Speaker 02 another trial would be held to determine whether he was sane or not at the time of the crime. The defense entered Gein's pleas in court: not guilty, and not guilty by reason of insanity.
33:28 Speaker 01 Many witnesses took the stand for the prosecution, but one was missing: Art Schley. At age 43, the former sheriff died of a heart attack a few months before the trial began. Many people theorized, though, that his heart attack was caused by his anxiety about being subpoenaed to testify in Gein's trial. Friends had seen how traumatized Schley had been after investigating Gein's case back in 1957.
33:54 Speaker 02 The defense team's key witness was Gein himself. He took the stand and stuck to his original story. Gein told the judge that he shot Warden by accident. He relayed to the judge how he went to Warden's store and inserted a 22-yard bullet into the rifle's magazine to make sure it would fit. Gein claimed that he did not remember removing Warden's body from the store, and he didn't remember dismembering the body at the farm.
34:21 Speaker 01 In his testimony, Gein tried his hand at psychoanalyzing himself. He theorized to the judge that seeing Warden's body and the blood caused him to blackout. Gein said that whenever he saw blood as a boy, he would, quote, "either faint or blackout. That's why I cannot remember," end quote.
34:39 Speaker 02 Judge Galmar rejected Gein's defense entirely. On November 14th, 1968, Gein was found guilty of first-degree murder. Judge Galmar believed that Gein's actions after Warden was shot didn't reflect someone who had committed an accidental action. The judge said, quote, "While he testified that he had no personal recollection of dissecting the body, I think there could be no question that this was done by the defendant and that he hung her in his woodshed." Gein's second trial began immediately after the first verdict was read, and it only took a few hours to determine his sanity.
35:19 Speaker 01 Milwaukee County Health Center's Dr. William Crowley and Dr. Schubert testified and confirmed that Gein is still a long-term schizophrenic. Two days later, Judge Galmar relayed his decision and ruled that Gein was in fact mentally ill. He determined, quote, "The court does further find that as a result of his mental disease that he lacked substantial capacity to conform his conduct to the requirements of the law. The court does hereby find the defendant not guilty by reason of insanity." Gein would be recommitted to Central State Hospital.
35:54 Speaker 02 That's right. Gein had been both convicted of murder and subsequently acquitted in the same week. After the verdict was read, Gein spoke to the press while dressed in the same blue suit in which he began the trial. He told reporters that he was looking forward to returning to Central State Hospital. Gein said, quote, "They treat you pretty good there."
36:15 Speaker 01 During the press conference, Gein did some more amateur psychoanalysis on himself. He theorized that the town of Plainfield and not his mental illness was the cause of his crimes. He also seemed to blame his family for moving from La Crosse, Wisconsin, to Plainfield during his childhood. Gein told reporters the following, quote, "Locality has an awful lot to do with a person's life. I believe if we had stayed in La Crosse, this thing would never have happened. I believe it was just my bad luck to go to a locality where the people were not as friendly as they should have been," end quote.
36:55 Speaker 02 Vanessa, why would Gein blame his crimes on his "bad luck" and the town he was raised in?
37:01 Speaker 01 Well, we need to remember that Gein is a diagnosed psychopath. Shifting blame is a hallmark of personality disorder. Psychopaths rarely take responsibility for their own actions. Instead, they show blame externalization, meaning that psychopaths blame others for things that are clearly their own fault. In this case, Gein has decided to shift all the blame to the town of Plainfield, his former neighbors, and so-called "bad luck."
37:28 Speaker 02 Gein would not be charged or tried for any other crime. He would never stand trial for the murder of tavern owner Mary Hogan. Unfortunately, she became reduced to a footnote in his criminal proceedings. It was Judge Galmar who had decided not to pursue the case. In 1981, he published a book about the trial, in which he wrote, "Due to prohibitive costs, Gein was tried for only one murder, that of Mrs. Warden. He also admitted to killing Mary Hogan."
38:00 Speaker 01 But the question of Gein's sanity would continue to be explored. Like his previous commitment, Gein's stay at Central State Hospital depended on the evaluations of the staff. If the doctors ever found him to be mentally healthy, Gein had a chance at being discharged.
38:16 Speaker 02 In February 1974, he thought he had that chance. At age 68, Gein filed a petition with the Washore County Court, claiming that he had "now fully recovered his mental health and is fully competent, and there is no reason why he should remain in any hospital." Gein had a good life at Central State, considering his circumstances. He worked as a carpenter's helper, a mason, and hospital attendant. Gein told the press, "If you want to go someplace, you can't go. It is human nature to want to go someplace." Although when pressed, Gein wasn't quite sure where he wanted to go. But he knew he did not want to return to Plainfield, and he knew he wanted to be in a big city.
39:01 Speaker 02 Gein told reporters, quote, "I know several trades, I can do almost anything," end quote.
39:07 Speaker 01 In June 1974, Gein had another sanity hearing, once again presided over by Judge Galmar. He wore the same blue suit, but showed a lot more personality and confidence with the press. He smiled for the TV cameras, and even joked around with a sketch artist. Gein playfully told the artist, "You could have made it a little more handsome." Gein was a bit nervous, but he seemed comfortable in the process. After all, this was his third sanity hearing.
39:35 Speaker 02 This time around, three different doctors gave their testimony regarding Gein's well-being. Dr. Thomas Maliege, University of Wisconsin Medical School Head of Psychiatry, Dr. Liam Roberts, and Dr. George Arnt, who studied the Geener jokes years before.
39:51 Speaker 01 Dr. Maliege testified that Gein's psychosis was still there, below the surface, and could come out at any moment. Dr. Maliege described his exam of Gein earlier that year, in which Gein had not been receptive to Dr. Maliege's questions, and even made some violent jokes and statements. The doctor said that Gein told him, quote, "Psychiatrists are probably responsible for a lot of trouble in the world, because of making people dig up the past. I think a lot of prisoners here might go out and kill 'em, rob 'em, club 'em, because of digging up the past," end quote. Dr. Maliege described a test he gave Gein with proverbs, and Gein had a very personal reaction to them. "The most telling," Dr.
40:35 Speaker 01 Maliege said, "was Gein's response to the proverb, 'A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.'" Gein had told the doctor, quote, "If you have a bird in your hand, you might squeeze him too tight and kill him," end quote.
40:52 Speaker 02 Dr. Malik said that Gein needed to remain committed, but perhaps he could be transferred to a less restrictive hospital.
40:59 Speaker 01 Dr. Lee Roberts disagreed. She worried about the "accessibility of women" that Gein would have at other hospitals. Dr. Roberts and Dr. Arndt both testified that Gein should remain in Central State Hospital. Dr. Schubert agreed and added, quote, "I don't think he has the strength to cope with society now, and I don't think he ever had the strength to cope with society."
41:22 Speaker 02 Judge Galmar delivered his verdict. He rejected Gein's petition for discharge. The judge voiced concerns about Gein having issues adjusting to society after having been institutionalized for over a decade. Galmar said the following, quote, "I don't know whether it would be dangerous to Mr. Gein to release him, but I do know that it would be horribly frustrating for him," end quote.
41:46 Speaker 01 When the verdict came down, Gein wasn't shocked or upset. He remained calm. He may have expected this outcome, considering his past hearings, but he didn't say anything about it. Gein smiled as he exited the courtroom and headed back to Central State Hospital. Later in 1974, people would learn just how influential Gein had become at Central State Hospital. Former Central State Hospital patient Purvis Smith was suspected in the murder of an 86-year-old woman named Helen Lowe. Smith had allegedly bludgeoned her to death, gouged out her eyes, and attempted to peel the skin off her face. Smith told police that he had learned all about murder, mutilation, and making face
42:28 Speaker 01 masks from his friend, Ed Gein, at Central State Hospital.
42:33 Speaker 02 In 1978, Central State Hospital was converted into a correctional facility, so Gein was transferred to Mendota Mental Health Institute at age 72. A spokesperson for Wisconsin State Health and Social Services said that Gein was eligible for transfer due to a stable condition and low-security status. In 1984, Mendota's geriatric ward would be his final home. On July 26, 1984, Ed Gein died of cancer-induced liver and respiratory failure at age 78. He was buried in an unmarked plot in Plainfield Cemetery, right next to his beloved mother, Augusta.
43:17 Speaker 02 Gein's legacy carried on. Judge Gohmert published a book about Gein in 1984, and the case's witnesses continued to receive media attention until their own respective deaths. Gein also inspired more films. The late filmmaker Toby Hooper grew up hearing about Gein's crimes as a child, and it would inspire him to make his 1975 classic horror film, The Texas Chainsaw Massacre. Gein would serve as one of the main inspirations for the chilling villains Buffalo Bill and Hannibal Lecter in Thomas Harris's 1988 novel, The Silence of the Lambs, and the Oscar-winning 1991 film starring Jodie Foster.
43:59 Speaker 02 Even though Gein was not formally convicted of his crimes, his horrors live on.
44:12 Speaker 01 Thanks again for tuning into Serial Killers.
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44:43 Speaker 01 Join us next Monday as we delve into the twisted psyche of Harold Shipman.
44:48 Speaker 02 Have a killer week.
44:51 Speaker 01 Serial Killers was created by Max Cutler and developed by Ron Cutler. It is a production of Cutler Media and is part of the ParCast network. It is produced by Max and Ron Cutler, sound design by Kenny Hobbs with production assistance by Carrie Murphy, additional production assistance by Carly Madden and Maggie Admire. Serial Killers is written by Mallory Cara and stars Greg Paulson and Vanessa Richardson.
45:17 Speaker 05 Stone Fire Non is inspired by ancient traditions, baked on stone at blazing high heat. But it's perfect for your new traditions, too. I love putting out Stone Fire Non with dips, for board game night.
45:28 Speaker 06 Or with cinnamon and sugar, for my book club gals.
45:30 Speaker 07 We enjoy Stone Fire Non. Before the ritual summoning of the Nameless Ones. We invoke the Nameless Ones. They shall not be named.
45:37 Speaker 08 And we, uh, do Stone Fire Pizza Parties for the kids. I'm really scared right now.
45:43 Speaker 05 Stone Fire, from our tradition to yours. Together, we on.
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