1394: Wife Cheated with Friend, But Must Marriage End? | Feedback Friday

Your wife and your fantasy football pal were a secret team. Is staying married smart parenting, or just making you a schmuck? It's Feedback Friday! And in case you didn't already know it, Jordan Harbinger (@JordanHarbinger https://twitter.com/JordanHarbinger) and Gabriel Mizrahi (@GabeMizrahi https://twitter.com/GabeMizrahi) banter and take your comments and questions for Feedback Friday right here every week! If you want us to answer your question, register your feedback, or tell your story on one of our upcoming weekly Feedback Friday episodes, drop us a line at [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. Now let's dive in! Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/1394 https://jordanharbinger.com/1394 On This Week's Feedback Friday: If you want to close your eyes and drift across Gabe's silent meditation retreat post-game wrap-up, you can jump to timestamp 28 minutes and 40 seconds! You spent four years as a stay-at-home dad to three girls, only to learn your wife's "work trips" were cover for a years-long affair with your fantasy football buddy and family friend. Now she says she doesn't want a divorce. Do you go scorched earth, or quietly stay put for the kids' sake? Your sister-in-law's home was raided by the FBI, local police, and CPS after her husband's old crypto account was allegedly linked to purchases of child sexual abuse material. Now your niece is living with her grandmother, and the details keep getting murkier. How do you help, and is this the whole story? Recommendation of the Week: TurboScribe https://turboscribe.ai/ — Jordan's go-to for turning audio, video, or even a YouTube link into an accurate transcript, free for up to three 30-minute files a day, and they promise never to train AI on your words. Ready to give your typing fingers the day off? Your 92-year-old mom, a devoted show fan, decided to stop fighting her illness — then, after two nights of falling asleep to the show, rallied with new plans and projects. Now you're juggling joy, worry, and anticipatory grief. How do you support her, and yourself, through the unknown? Have any questions, comments, or stories you'd like to share with us? Drop us a line at [email protected] mailto:[email protected]! Connect with Jordan on Twitter at @JordanHarbinger https://twitter.com/JordanHarbinger and Instagram at @jordanharbinger https://www.instagram.com/jordanharbinger. Connect with Gabriel on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi https://twitter.com/GabeMizrahi and Instagram @gabrielmizrahi https://www.instagram.com/gabrielmizrahi/. And if you're still game to support us, please leave a review here https://itunes.apple.com/podcast/id1344999619?mt=2&ls=1 — even one sentence helps! Sign up for Six-Minute Networking https://jordanharbinger.com/course — our free networking and relationship development mini course — at jordanharbinger.com/course https://jordanharbinger.com/course! Subscribe to our once-a-week Wee Bit Wiser https://www.jordanharbinger.com/news/ newsletter today and start filling your Wednesdays with wisdom! Do you even Reddit, bro? Join us at r/JordanHarbinger https://www.reddit.com/r/JordanHarbinger/! This Episode Is Brought To You By Our Fine Sponsors https://www.jordanharbinger.com/deals/: BetterHelp: 10% off first month: betterhelp.com/jordan https://www.betterhelp.com/jordanAT&T: Get an iPhone 17 Pro for $0: att.com/iphone or visit an AT&T store for details https://att.com/iphoneMint Mobile: Shop plans at mintmobile.com/jhs https://www.mintmobile.com/jhsProgressive Insurance: Free online quote: progressive.com https://www.progressive.com/See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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• 1:18Speaker 01

  Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, the inoffensive, plant-based mozzarella to my dank, unsubtle gorgonzola, Gabriel Mizrahi.

• 1:30Speaker 02

  You just recited my order at the last three restaurants I visited. That was great.

• 1:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, I want that pasta that smells so good, but take all the flavors out and all that stuff. I know your substitutions. Your substitutiones. Is that a real word? Probably not.

• 1:44Speaker 02

  Probably not, but I loved it.

• 1:45Speaker 01

  That sounds like one of those, yeah. On the Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people. Our mission is to help you become a better-informed, more critical thinker. And during the week, we have long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks. Rocket scientists, drug scientists, former jihadis, undercover economic hitmen, you name it. This week, we had Jeff Scoop, former neo-Nazi, and Andrew Herr on travel health. Staying healthy in the sky and at hotels and even avoiding a little bit of jet lag. He's the inventor of FlyKit, a product I'm a huge fan of. So that's an especially practical episode. On Fridays, though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, play obnoxious soundbites, and compare ourselves to various obscure cheese genres.

• 2:28Speaker 03

  Hey, show fam. Producer Jayce here. If you want to close your eyes and drift across Gabe's silent meditation retreat post-game wrap-up, you can jump to timestamp 28 minutes and 40 seconds. Enjoy the show.

• 2:43Speaker 01

  So Gabe, you're just coming off your silent meditation retreat, yeah?

• 2:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, just finished a couple of days ago. Quite an experience, I have to say.

• 2:50Speaker 01

  I bet. How was it?

• 2:51Speaker 02

  It was pretty awesome, man. I have a lot of thoughts. I'm still making sense of everything. It wasn't perfect. I have some notes, but overall, it was really, really great. I'm glad I did it.

• 3:01Speaker 01

  Really?

• 3:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was very eye-opening, the whole experience.

• 3:04Speaker 01

  So many questions. So first of all, was it as hard as you thought? Because my thing is, oh, just it's the nightmare not being able to talk for that long.

• 3:10Speaker 02

  It wasn't, actually. I was really surprised. Not hard. Not hard to be silent.

• 3:14Speaker 01

  Tell me more. I mean, explain how five days of silence is not excruciating.

• 3:18Speaker 02

  So first of all, let me paint you a picture. The retreat took place at this Benedictine monastery that I told you about, that dated back to like the Middle Ages. And there was a church next to it with paintings from hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years ago. It was like stunning. And it was in this tiny little town called Magutano on the southwest corner of Lake Garda, which is a really beautiful place. And when you walk around this property, you feel like you're in one of the houses of one of the major families in Game of Thrones.

• 3:48Speaker 01

  I was just gonna say GOT, yeah.

• 3:50Speaker 02

  100%. Like courtyard, cloister, like, you know, archways and...

• 3:57Speaker 01

  Benedictine monks, are those the, oh, guys?

• 4:01Speaker 02

  I don't know the sounds they make, actually. And actually, they were not involved in the retreat. It was just, we were just sleeping in their monastery while the retreat was taking place. So I don't know.

• 4:11Speaker 01

  Like, hey, I got a group of people, easy money, they're gonna be super quiet the whole time. And the guys are like, they better be quiet. And I'm like, actually, let me, it's a silent meditation retreat. And they're like, all right, make the check out to... Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

• 4:25Speaker 02

  I would like to know more about them. I didn't see very many walking around the property, but there were other groups there, and some were affiliated with the monastery, and some were just renting the space. I think they just rent out the space a lot.

• 4:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, the monks all live in Milan now and brew beer or whatever.

• 4:38Speaker 02

  Drinking espresso by the train station.

• 4:40Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 4:41Speaker 02

  It was amazing, though. They had like a cemetery in the back for monks and nuns who lived and died there. And they had these beautiful olive groves on the property. And the monastery makes its own olive oil and sells it, which I had never seen before, by the way. That made me laugh.

• 4:54Speaker 01

  The monks are often entrepreneurial, you know, like you think, oh, they're just sitting around. But they make beer, cider, I guess they make olive oil, too. My buddy was a monk. I mean, he was a Don DePani. He was not a Christian monk or whatever, but they made websites.

• 5:09Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 5:10Speaker 01

  So his thing was Monk with a MacBook, because they were all on Apple making websites in like the 90s and the early aughts.

• 5:15Speaker 02

  I completely forgot about that guy.

• 5:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:17Speaker 02

  That's so funny, because usually they make like jams, honeys, beer.

• 5:21Speaker 01

  Now they're like, which one of you guys knows Ruby on Rails?

• 5:24Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 5:26Speaker 01

  Who's our Ruby on Rails guy? Oh, that would be so-and-so, straight from India.

• 5:30Speaker 02

  We're meditating at 5:00 AM, guys, but by 8:00 AM, I need that Squarespace page up.

• 5:34Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 5:35Speaker 02

  We gotta pay the bills. So I was invited to this thing by my friend Itai, who lives in Berlin now, and another friend from the States who lives in Berlin, too. He joined us. And there were like 40 to 50 people there, which I did not expect. I thought it was gonna be like eight or 12 people or something. Most of them were Italian, handful of Americans. Most of them were actually psychologists or somehow related to the mental health field, because the association that organized the retreat is run by therapists, and they do a lot of programming for therapists and psychologists. They do a lot of content for this industry. And man, there were all types at this thing. I would say like half of the participants were maybe 60 or older. A third were like 40s, 50s, and 20% were 20s and

• 6:16Speaker 02

  30s. It was a great group. Like, everybody was super sweet, super cool, but you definitely get some interesting personalities.

• 6:24Speaker 01

  Wait, wait, wait. How do you know if they're super cool if you can't talk? Or they're just smiling at you, or?

• 6:30Speaker 02

  Yes. Actually, that's basically it. Just how they look at you.

• 6:34Speaker 01

  Vibes.

• 6:35Speaker 02

  Vibes. But also, towards the end of the retreat, on the last day, we were allowed to talk more, and then you get to know people. So that's

• 6:42Speaker 01

  Got it.

• 6:42Speaker 02

  That's the other way that I know. But you could just feel like everybody there was there because they wanted to learn. And when you can't speak to other people, you have to find other ways of communicating, right? Or just being a thoughtful participant, right? So the way somebody pours you a cup of hot water for your tea after they make the hot water, or somebody holds a door, or just the way they look at you when you cross paths in the hallway, like, these things paint a picture. You don't always get a read, but you suddenly become very conscious of those cues when you can't talk.

• 7:13Speaker 01

  If they were all Italian, were they touchy also? Like, are they like, here's your tea, rubbing your shoulders but not saying anything?

• 7:19Speaker 02

  Not on this one. One of the rules at the beginning was like, no romantic or sexual contact at all on this retreat.

• 7:26Speaker 01

  Okay, but...

• 7:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, but like rubbing your shoulders is not sexual or romantic. It's kind of, it can just be like nice. But people were very well behaved. That's how I'll put it.

• 7:33Speaker 01

  It's so interesting that there's no romantic or sexual contact, because theoretically, what that means is regardless of the fact that nobody can talk, somewhere, some point, some couple was just like, let's bang, without saying a word, before, during, or after, unless they broke the rules.

• 7:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:50Speaker 01

  Like, imagine, I don't know how to report this without talking, but there's two people banging in the dormitory area.

• 7:56Speaker 02

  I'm sure the teacher has seen all kinds of things happen, but the rule is designed to keep the space, well, safe, right? But also, like, pure. Like, we're not here for that for four days. We're not here on that level. We're here on another level.

• 8:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:11Speaker 02

  You know, it helps.

• 8:13Speaker 01

  There's someone out there who's like, right now, in real time, discovering that maybe they have a kink for this kind of thing, like no talking.

• 8:20Speaker 02

  A silence kink.

• 8:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, because clearly, like, you just need the right two people who have sort of the physical chemistry and the immediate onsite thing, and then are like, wait, this is kind of hot. We can't talk.

• 8:30Speaker 02

  The flip side of everything I'm saying is that if you do click with somebody and you can't talk, then you really click with them. And yeah...

• 8:36Speaker 01

  That's a good point. Pure chemistry. And then you talk to them and you find out they're super irritating. Like, oh, I liked you so much when you couldn't speak.

• 8:45Speaker 02

  Yeah. Can we just go from silent retreat to silent retreat? Can you be my silent retreat side piece?

• 8:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. How about a rule for our relationship is just no talking about anything at any time?

• 8:55Speaker 02

  But it's, we call it meditation, babe. It's meditation.

• 8:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, we're just being present. There's always an interesting bunch of people at any sort of wellness or self-help retreat, right? That's kind of a given.

• 9:04Speaker 02

  Always. I could do like an hour just on the people. Like, there was like the former jazz singer, 80 years old. It was like obsessed with the bells, like would not shut up about the bells.

• 9:15Speaker 01

  But they can't talk.

• 9:16Speaker 02

  Well, on day one, when we arrived, we could talk. And she was like, can we get wake-up bells at 7:00 AM? And then

• 9:22Speaker 01

  I see.

• 9:23Speaker 02

  During Q and A, you can talk. That's what it was. There was a half hour of Q and A every day, and we were allowed to speak then. And then she was like, I just like to say, I asked for bells and I got bells. We were like, okay. And on the last day, she thanked everybody for the bells. I don't know why I'm talking about this woman. Every single person had something funny, but we don't have enough time for that. But I will say this. It was actually a bit hard at first, knowing that everybody there was very interesting, because when you can't talk to anybody, you just have to sit there wondering how everybody got there. And like, what is their story? And what are they wrestling with? And everybody's just sitting in silence, and you can't find out. So you just have to sit there with that.

• 10:00Speaker 01

  No, I could not handle that. So like, I'll see somebody, not just in the wild, obviously, I would never do this, but if I'm at a group thing, and I see somebody with a crazy tattoo, I'm like, hey, dude, none of my business, but we're gonna be together for six days. What's up with that tattoo? That thing is crazy. And they're like, oh, yeah, actually got that in a concentration camp in Bosnia when I was a kid. And you're like, oh, I need to hear all about this, but also, that sounds traumatizing, and I probably shouldn't ask any more questions. But yeah, I couldn't just be like, what is that? Why do you have this set of dots that's seemingly meaningless on your hand or whatever?

• 10:34Speaker 02

  That's a perfect example.

• 10:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:35Speaker 02

  And there were people there who had amazing tattoos. And I would be sitting there and being like, oh, I really want to ask her what that is.

• 10:40Speaker 01

  Right. Q and A. Hi, I want to know why Janice has those tattoos on her arm.

• 10:46Speaker 02

  Okay, do you have anything on like the sutras?

• 10:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:49Speaker 01

  Is it a Sutra tattoo? Maybe it's a Sutra tattoo. Janice?

• 10:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's metering Q and A. That's why I can't handle it. So your feedback Friday brain must have been going insane. But that again is part of the meditation, right? Like, I guess the curiosity pull you, but then, I don't know, don't let it pull you, whatever.

• 11:06Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, you didn't have to make fun of it, but yeah.

• 11:08Speaker 01

  I do have to make fun of it.

• 11:09Speaker 02

  That's more or less what it was. For me, it was like, for me, it was like, there's a part of my brain that really wants to ask that guy why he's sad, or where that lady got those glasses, or that wants to talk to somebody about what the teacher meant when he said that thing during Q and A and just, you can't indulge it. So you just have to let that impulse be without acting on it. And yeah, I think that was part of the retreat.

• 11:29Speaker 01

  So who was the teacher? Mind, shaman, facilitator, whatever the word is?

• 11:33Speaker 02

  The teacher was this somewhat famous meditation teacher, an American guy, but I think he's Italian, from Italian descent. And this guy was the most unlikely meditation teacher you could imagine. He was like a short, thin man with a shaved head, thick rimmed glasses, brightly colored, screen printed t-shirts and jackets that didn't match and pants that didn't match. Like every day was like a different set. Full sleeve tattoos. Speaking of tattoos, like on his right arm, he had a tattoo that said blessed and it was wrapped in what appeared to be octopus tentacles. Just to give you like one tattoo, like it just, I don't know, man, you took a one look at this guy and you're like, this dude has been through some shit. I don't know what it is, but he's been through it.

• 12:15Speaker 02

  You know what he looked like? He looked like a guy who would wander into Saul Goodman's office.

• 12:19Speaker 01

  Oh, man.

• 12:20Speaker 02

  Like, he sold Walter White methamphetamine in one episode, but he's also weirdly philosophical. This guy was so sweet, so gentle, always smiling, very respectful, super low key. It was just so unexpected, like not what I imagined at all.

• 12:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh, wow. Okay. So I was picturing, I don't know, a guy in an orange robe or something, or at least flowy yoga pants, man bun.

• 12:41Speaker 02

  Russell Brand. You were picturing Russell Brand.

• 12:43Speaker 01

  Correct. That's literally who I was imagining, more or less. Yes. Or one of those, what is it? Kundalini people that dress in all white, someone who drinks fennel tea?

• 12:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, the complete opposite.

• 12:53Speaker 01

  It's funny and unexpected, I suppose.

• 12:55Speaker 02

  So he would give a half hour talk once a day and there were these very folksy, down to earth lectures. And every single day was a different theme. One day was compassion, another day was joy, another day was like gratitude or envy or whatever. And so during one of these talks, he made a comment like, I can't remember exactly what he said, but it was something like, you know, sometimes when I'm dealing with some minor irritation and I can't do anything about it, I feel like I'm back in prison again. And I was like, oh, okay.

• 13:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:23Speaker 02

  Damn. So I was correct. This guy has been through it.

• 13:26Speaker 01

  Although, I'll be honest, that's the kind of comment I would make in a place where nobody could ask questions, just to let it hang over everyone. This reminds me when I was on the run from the cops for half a decade. Anyway, so when you are in lotus position and everyone just looks at each other and you're like, folks, presence, presence.

• 13:43Speaker 02

  I gather that he was kind of a storyteller. And so he probably understood how that like hooked our curiosity in a certain way.

• 13:49Speaker 01

  It's kind of like hiding a body. You just put one leg over the other and you smash them together. Anyway, I hope that metaphor makes sense and lands for everyone. Back to silence. Bing.

• 13:59Speaker 02

  Talk about bearing our thoughts. Yeah, no, you could feel it, dude. He was very open about a lot of his life. He actually cried a few times during the retreat, talking about certain things or certain people, like, I don't know, at one point he talked about his father, who I guess is very sick and he's gonna go visit him nearby. And then he started crying.

• 14:14Speaker 01

  Good for him, being able to just like, do that right there and not feel super self-conscious about it.

• 14:19Speaker 02

  At the drop of a hat, dude, with like, no shame. And then he just started laughing. Like, man, life is crazy, huh?

• 14:25Speaker 01

  I mean, that's a skill. I wish, like, sometimes I feel like crying and I'm like, how do I do this again? I literally can't remember. I need, I need time to settle in.

• 14:33Speaker 02

  Go to this guy's retreat, because the day after I left, I didn't cry during the retreat, but the next day I was doing yoga in my Airbnb.

• 14:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:40Speaker 02

  And when I finished and I was rolling up the mat, I started crying. Yeah.

• 14:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, for me, it's so hard for me to access my emotions a lot of the time. I guess I'm half joking about like, oh, I don't forgot to cry. But no, no, no, there's all these, everything always hits me like days or weeks later. I didn't even cry when my cat died and it took like weeks for me to do that. And then I was like, am I, why is this so late? This is weird. I'm being weird. And then I got all in my head about it and stopped.

• 15:04Speaker 02

  So what do you think it is?

• 15:05Speaker 01

  I think guys generally in the, as well, me, I should say, but many men, I think, share this. We just don't do that for so long that we're like, not, it's just not a skill that we have anymore, like accessing emotions other than anger or frustration. They're buried deep in there and you have to like, take time to get them out. And you're like, why would I do that? And if crying's bad?

• 15:24Speaker 02

  It definitely does not come as easily to us as it does to the ladies, I think, generally. But I also think like you're, we have so many defenses against these things and so many distractions. And when you're in a place like that and you don't have those things, it just comes really easily.

• 15:38Speaker 01

  I bet. So we're, you guys were otherwise in silence the whole time?

• 15:42Speaker 02

  You're supposed to be. I would call it an Italian silence.

• 15:45Speaker 01

  Okay. So like Italians are some of the loudest, funnest people on planet Earth. So I can't imagine that that's very quiet.

• 15:52Speaker 02

  It was flexible. Sometimes I would go into the break room to make tea or fill up my water bottle, especially at night after the programming was over and we had free time. And there would be like four or five people sitting around the snack table, just having a chat at the silent meditation retreat.

• 16:05Speaker 01

  And you're not like, you're supposed to be quiet. No, I want to cheat too. What are you guys talking about? Italy doesn't seem like the ideal location for a bunch of restraint all at the same time.

• 16:18Speaker 02

  You, Ty and I mostly kept the silence, but sometimes we needed to communicate with each other or we just couldn't help ourselves and we needed to like, do a bit about something that happened on the retreat. So we would type each other notes in the notes app on my phone. Also, this is funny. He is show running an animated series right now and they're in the process of drawing all of the characters for the show, right? So he had to respond to emails from the team. And then one night at two in the morning, he had to go down to the courtyard to have a fight with one of the producers.

• 16:46Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 16:47Speaker 02

  About the mockups for the characters, because they had a bunch of disagreements, which is just the most LA thing you could do at a Vipassana retreat.

• 16:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. Uh, like, sorry, sorry, Shifu or whatever. I like Zen master. Yeah, that's the Chinese word. It's probably probably use that. But it's like, sorry, Shifu, I have to go outside to make a quick call. Ooh, that's really against what we're doing. I told you to get the death. If he doesn't have ears that look like a rabbit, how is he Mr. Rabbit's magical ride?

• 17:13Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 17:14Speaker 01

  God damn it. Anyway, namaste, everybody.

• 17:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, everyone's trying to respect the noble silence. He's scream whispering in the cloister to some guy named Todd back in LA about his Hulu series.

• 17:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. What do you mean it's gonna be on Tubi?

• 17:28Speaker 02

  You promised me a streamer, a major streamer.

• 17:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. So did he win the fight?

• 17:31Speaker 02

  He won the fight.

• 17:33Speaker 01

  But most importantly, he's not fired.

• 17:35Speaker 02

  He woke up the next morning feeling very victorious. So I guess the silence did him good. But yes, theoretically, for those four or five days, you're supposed to be off your phone and you're supposed to be silent. Just go inward as much as you can.

• 17:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. And you're meditating the entire time? I can't think of anything I'd rather do less than that.

• 17:51Speaker 02

  No, we know how you feel about it.

• 17:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:53Speaker 02

  But actually, it's not. This is part of why I was able, I was like, oh, this isn't that bad. So typical day is you wake up at seven with the bells, which I recorded and I can send you. And then you do silent meditation from seven 30 to eight, then it's breakfast, then it's walking meditation, which just means you can wander the property and you're supposed to be very meditating about it. Don't listen to a podcast while you do it or whatever. And then there would be a talk from the teacher, unless it's ours, of course, and then you're allowed. He specifically said that at the beginning.

• 18:18Speaker 01

  He specifically allowed feedback Fridays.

• 18:21Speaker 02

  He said, if it's feedback Friday and it's Friday, then you're allowed to listen.

• 18:25Speaker 01

  Great. Perfect. Can you listen to music as long as there's no words or no?

• 18:30Speaker 02

  He never said you can't do any of that stuff, but he said, I highly encourage everybody to stay off their phones. Give yourself the gift of this time off your phone.

• 18:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, that makes sense.

• 18:39Speaker 02

  I think it's implied. No music, no podcasts, no books, if you.

• 18:42Speaker 01

  That's cool that they're not precious about it, though. Like, okay, you have something really, you're gonna lose your job. You don't need me to be like, tsk, tsk, tsk, you're on your phone.

• 18:49Speaker 02

  Exactly. Yeah, I appreciated that too. And then there would be a talk from the teacher at like 10 and then guided meditation with a, based on the theme of the talk from 10:30 to 11, and then another walking meditation, and then more silent meditation, and then walking again, and then lunch. And then you would break for a few hours. You could take a nap or go for a walk or journal or whatever. And then you do it all again in the afternoon. And then it would wrap up around nine PM.

• 19:12Speaker 01

  Gosh, even one day of that would drive me nuts, but I guess that's why you do it. It sounds really intense. I think I'd be that guy faffing off in the olive groves, taking a nap in the cemetery while everybody sits in the lotus position for two and a half hours. And it's like, Jordan, where'd you go? Oh, I needed alone time. But I totally meditated while I was out there, I think.

• 19:31Speaker 02

  Everything is meditation if you're just staring off into the distance.

• 19:34Speaker 01

  Staring off into the distance. Yeah.

• 19:35Speaker 02

  I don't know. I gotta say, this guy's approach to meditation was really awesome. He was just so chill, so down to earth, very simple, no pretension, no airs about him. There's no like, this is the way it's done. You have to do it perfectly. You have to do it like this. You're not doing it correctly. He was just very welcoming and very practical. I like that.

• 19:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's cool. I always appreciate it when it teaches like that. It's the ones who dress up and are super prescriptive that tend to, tend to get on my nerves.

• 19:58Speaker 02

  Totally. I agree. The first day when we went into the first meditation, that he said, sit down, close your eyes, and whatever you do, please do not meditate. And I felt myself relax. And I was like, okay, this guy's on the level. He's cool. I can do this.

• 20:11Speaker 01

  That's great. So he's like, hey, don't try to meditate. And you're like, oh, then I can just sit here with my eyes closed. And he's like, oh, they're meditating now and they don't even know.

• 20:19Speaker 02

  I think he was helping us not get in our own way, you know? Like, don't try to have this experience. Just have the experience you're having, whatever that is. And that's all you need to do. He barely defined meditation. Like, he would say things like the obvious things, but he would say it very little. Like, notice your thoughts. When your mind wanders, bring it back. That's it. Just do that.

• 20:38Speaker 01

  Any quick gems you can share from the retreat, you know, so I never have to do anything like this myself?

• 20:43Speaker 02

  So I gotta say, this dude surprised me in the topics he chose because he went to some places I did not see coming at a meditation retreat. Although now on the other side, I think maybe that, that made him a meditator. Some, I don't know.

• 20:54Speaker 01

  Probably.

• 20:55Speaker 02

  Part of his journey. But one thing he said early on that I really liked, he quoted his teacher, who said, "We don't ask questions for answers. We ask questions to generate interest."

• 21:06Speaker 01

  Okay, so does his teacher listen to Feedback Friday? Because that sounds like something you would say, yeah.

• 21:10Speaker 02

  I know. So much of this week was so Feedback Friday coded, it was hilarious. I was like, okay.

• 21:15Speaker 01

  So what he means is what the answers are less important than the process, probably?

• 21:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, than the process and less important than the information that the question reveals, which just lead to more questions, you know?

• 21:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, I like that. I mean, I love a good answer, but I get it.

• 21:28Speaker 02

  Another thing he shared that I liked, and this is not new, but he said it in a new way. He talked about how important it is to be very friendly to yourself when your mind wanders during meditation, to just be like, oh, there you go again. Let's come back. Like, to be nice about it, to not be harsh.

• 21:41Speaker 01

  I meditated a lot in high school, and I was really not easy on myself. I was always like, "Why can't you do the simple thing? Gosh, you suck at this." You know, I was really beating myself up a lot. I didn't have a meditation teacher. I was just trying to do it, and I read books and stuff.

• 21:55Speaker 02

  Interesting.

• 21:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I think if there'd been actual resources for this, for a 16, 17-year-old kid to learn this stuff, other than like a karate class where they're trying to pretend they're in the military half the time, then I probably would have stuck with it, or done more of it, or been better at it. I don't know.

• 22:10Speaker 02

  But here's the thing, I was doing that too, and I think most people there were doing that. Because you realize, when you have to sit there for that many hours, you realize how insane you are, and how your mind has this momentum, and it just goes anywhere but in the moment that you're in, right? And so I was also talking to myself that way, like, "Oh, I suck at this. Like, you're cra- like, what's wrong with you? Why can't you focus?" But I loved his reason for saying this. He said something like, "You're more likely to come home," meaning like, literally, to come home to visit your family, right? "You're more likely to come home if you're treated with kindness when you return."

• 22:42Speaker 01

  Oh, I like that. Yeah, that's true.

• 22:44Speaker 02

  I just found it helpful. And then I started thinking about that idea in every part of my life, especially with the writing, because, you know, it gets hard, and it's always hard. And my tendency is to go like, "Well, you have no idea how to do this. You're clearly not a good writer. You should know how to write this scene by now. You can't even focus on the, you know, maybe you chose the wrong story. Maybe you're not a real writer." And then I'm like, "Oh, no wonder this is torture."

• 23:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, a lot of harsh talk, a lot of judgment. Same with working out. I mean, the same with any skill that you're learning or that you're doing.

• 23:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, absolutely. This whole idea of be kind to yourself, be compassionate to yourself, I have to confess, I find it incredibly cheesy and annoying.

• 23:17Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, of course.

• 23:18Speaker 02

  And trite, and just like, very hallmark, Cardi, and I've never been able to really embrace it.

• 23:22Speaker 01

  It's all Instagram quotes for me. I get it. I mean, I guess it doesn't mean it's not true, but whenever I see that stuff, I'm just like, whatever, my eyes roll.

• 23:29Speaker 02

  And that is why I love the metaphor he used, you know, about coming home. Because he took this very familiar idea to a new place, and then my mind was able to go, "Oh, yeah, of course." What would happen if I wasn't punishing myself for not doing something correctly? Like, maybe I would do it more. What a concept.

• 23:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:44Speaker 02

  Another thing I liked, one of his talks was about the topic of joy, and why joy can be so hard to feel.

• 23:51Speaker 01

  Oh, well, explain that. I think I definitely need help with this one.

• 23:55Speaker 02

  I think we all do. So his point there was, again, not super, super original, but I like the way he put it. He was like, "A lot of meditation is about going toward discomfort, toward pain, toward whatever's uncomfortable, right? And trying to stay with it, without trying to do too much with it." But he said, "If we're going to be willing to tolerate pain, then we also need to be equally willing to tolerate joy." But the human mind is ultimately a survival machine, right? So it has this negativity bias, we know this, and so it's designed, really, to seek out and fixate on what's wrong, whether it's real or not. It is not designed to appreciate what's great. But what's great is equally valuable and equally precious, even if it doesn't feel like it's like healing you, or whatever.

• 24:36Speaker 01

  Huh. Yeah, well, that is a big one. I know my mind will always go to the bad thing and dwell on it. Rarely does my mind go, "Man, things are so great right now. I'm gonna spend 30 minutes thinking about how wonderful everything is." That is not how I operate at all.

• 24:49Speaker 02

  So at one point, he said something like, "The mind is oriented around problem solving, so it just misses experiences like joy, because in joy, there's nothing for it to solve."

• 24:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, quite, indeed.

• 24:59Speaker 02

  And then he was like, "It's funny, because we spend all this time trying to assemble pleasant experiences. Like, we know how to go after things that we think will make us feel better, but enjoying them is another matter entirely."

• 25:11Speaker 01

  I mean, it's super true. Like, "All I need is an awesome lunch. That'll turn the day around." "Oh, I can't wait to go to Greece. I'll finally unwind in Greece." Then you're at lunch, or you're in Greece, and you're like unhappy about your hotel room balcony view. Or you're thinking about work, or what you have to do when you get back to work. That never totally works for me. I need weeks to unravel, to unwind on vacation, and then if I have too much time, I unravel, I suppose.

• 25:34Speaker 02

  Weeks to unravel on the vacation, and then weeks to recover and re-ravel. Yeah, a lot of the retreat was just like, all of us, just basking in the absurdity of how the mind works a lot of the time, and just how it keeps moving the goalposts on us constantly.

• 25:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, good metaphor.

• 25:50Speaker 02

  And then he was like, "Yeah, so this is tragic, but it is trainable. But we have to make a home right here in this moment, because that's it. That's the only solution to this. Nothing else works."

• 26:01Speaker 01

  So do I have to meditate to be happier? No, thank you. I'm out.

• 26:04Speaker 02

  You're out. What else can I tell you about this retreat? Another thing I found refreshing, this guy seemed very aware of the pitfalls of being a teacher, like, how you can present as perfect, or all-knowing, and he didn't say this, but I kind of, it was in between the lines. Like, he was very aware of how participants at retreats can project a lot of things onto you as a teacher, or like, how teachers are bound to make mistakes or disappoint people. And he said something I love that I made a note to tell you about. He goes, "Teachers are like incense. They smell good from a distance," which made me laugh.

• 26:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, I love that one. So important to not idealize these teachers, even the good ones.

• 26:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, I agree. I could tell you many more things, but I'll leave it there. Overall, a really cool experience. I would definitely do something like this again. Actually, I would have, when I was leaving, I was like, I would have done twice as long, if I could have. Because by the time you shake off the energy of wherever you came from and really drop in, the retreat is over. So a 10-day Vipassana retreat doesn't sound all that crazy. No, it sounds kind of fun.

• 27:01Speaker 01

  I've got friends who do that. Sam Harris does that. Dan Harris does stuff like this. Olivia Fox Caban does stuff like this, for people who know the charisma myth. I mean, they all do this stuff. And you've all know Harari. He does like, a month minimum every year, and he tries to do two or something like that.

• 27:18Speaker 02

  But is he like, a month in silence in his home, or is he going somewhere to do this?

• 27:22Speaker 01

  That's a good question. I forgot to ask him that. I can ask him that later. I'm actually curious about that myself.

• 27:27Speaker 02

  That's wild. A month of silence. But honestly, once I've done it, I mean, I'm sure you're still responding to emails and stuff, so there's, it's not no communication for a lot of people, but the silence actually is more sustainable than you think.

• 27:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're right. I wonder if he's just like, mostly silent and meditating most of the day, or if he's like, his phone is gone, and his husband's handling their household, and his assistant's handling his business. Yeah, I don't know. That's a really good question. But you've all, you're a really busy guy, right? He's researching. I think he might be teaching. He's traveling all over, giving talks. And so he probably does need a month off, and he just chooses to spend it this way, which I would never do, but whatever he needs to do.

• 28:03Speaker 02

  Maybe it's not silence. He's just so sick of talking.

• 28:05Speaker 01

  That's actually a really good point as well. He might just be like, "I'm over it, and I need a break from everybody." So are you a meditator now? Is that part of your identity?

• 28:13Speaker 02

  Not a good one. I can tell you that.

• 28:15Speaker 01

  Okay. Well, there's no good, Gabe. There's just noticing.

• 28:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, you're right. There I go again. Damn, just forgot. I already forgot.

• 28:21Speaker 01

  Stupid Gabe mind. You should know better.

• 28:23Speaker 02

  I've been doing it twice a day since the retreat, so there's that, for like, 10 or 15 minutes at a time. So we'll see. I still find it very difficult, much harder on your own than when you're with 50 other people in this beautiful place.

• 28:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, I bet. And then in that context, you have the social pressure and the shame that keeps you sitting there. And when you're alone, it's like, "Well, I've sat here long enough. How long was that? A minute and a half? That's fine. I get hungry. I want to check my email."

• 28:45Speaker 02

  You close your eyes, and the next thing you know, you're checking the stopwatch. You're like, "When did the, how did this happen?"

• 28:49Speaker 01

  It's still meditating when you doom scroll, if you do it with presence. Ugh, I admire it, man. I find it torturous, but there's obviously something to it. If all of these people who are very smart and productive keep banging on about it, I'm just, I'm glad you're having these experiences, so I can get the benefits without having to do any of the suffering. Because as you know, your boy likes to talk.

• 29:08Speaker 02

  I definitely think you could handle an Italian silence.

• 29:11Speaker 01

  Maybe. Italian silence I can maybe do, maybe, for a couple of days. Then I gotta get a burger and let loose.

• 29:19Speaker 02

  You never know till you do it. I was, you remember, I was stressing out before the retreat. I was like, "I don't know if I'm gonna, I'm not thinking about this, because there's nothing I can do about it, but I truly do not know if I can get through this." And then I got there, and I was like, "Oh, what's so bad about this?" Like, just be quiet and listen. I mean, it's not easy when you're sitting there for 30 minutes, but

• 29:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:36Speaker 02

  Overall, it's pretty nice.

• 29:38Speaker 01

  I guess you just have these ideas in your head about what something will be like, or what it'll mean, which, I mean, that's probably exactly what the guy was saying about the mind in the first place.

• 29:45Speaker 02

  Exactly. If only there were a practice for that, like we were saying, some sort of training of some kind.

• 29:51Speaker 01

  No idea what you're talking about. No clue. Time to move on.

• 29:53Speaker 02

  Okay. Quick ad break, and then let's pollute the silence?

• 29:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, let's do's it. Do us a favor, and namaste through this ad break. Meditate in Italian silence on the nirvana that is our deals and discounts on the fine products and services that support this show. And we'll be right back.

• 30:12Speaker 01

  This episode is also sponsored in part by BetterHelp. If you've thought about trying therapy with our long-term partner, BetterHelp, insurance options may now be available nationwide with an average copay for eligible members of just $23 per session. Your mental health does not wait for World Mental Health Day. Stress has never looked at October 10th and said, great, I'll just circle back then. Sometimes the signal is obvious. Other times, it's more like a smoke detector chirping somewhere in the house. You know, something needs attention, but you keep hoping the noise will stop on its own. Therapy can be a place to investigate that signal, whether it's tension at work, a relationship pattern you can't quite explain, or the feeling that you're just going through the motions. You don't need a five alarm emergency to ask what's really going on. If you've been waiting to start therapy, BetterHelp works with more than 125 health

• 30:55Speaker 01

  plan networks, and eligible members have an average copay of just $23 per session with insurance. Don't have insurance or live outside the US? You can still get 10% off your first month. Visit betterhelp.com/Jordan to explore your payment options. That's better H E L P dot com slash Jordan. This episode is sponsored in part by AT&T. You know that friend you haven't seen in months, but you still send each other something funny every day? Somehow, you know exactly what's going on in their life, even though neither of you can find a free Saturday. That counts as staying in touch. And right now, AT&T has a deal that will keep the connection going. Right now at AT&T, you can get the new iPhone 18 Pro for $0 with iPhone Trade-In, any condition. It has the most advanced iPhone camera ever and a big leap in battery life, so you can turn this deal into a long-lasting connection.

• 31:38Speaker 01

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• 32:18Speaker 01

  Okay, Gabe, what is the first thing out of the mailbag?

• 32:21Speaker 02

  Dear Jordan and Gabe, my wife of 11 years works remotely in a high-tech sales role, so she travels a lot to customer meetings, trainings, and conferences. For the past four years, I've been a stay-at-home dad to our three elementary school-aged girls. She gets to focus on work while I handle many home and kid responsibilities like making dinners, doing school pickups, shuttling the kids to lessons, rehearsals, and practices, volunteering at their school, et cetera. Unfortunately, recently, my wife admitted to having a long-term affair with a guy she first knew from college. My family became close with his family, including his wife and two sons, when they moved back to our city. Their oldest kid is in second grade with my middle.

• 33:05Speaker 02

  My three girls loved hanging out with his two boys. We visited regularly, we took our families out on our boat and fished, and we kept a running list of who won the card games we all played together. We vacationed with them and planned another vacation next month. The guy and I were bros. I golfed with him, and he and I were in a fantasy football league together.

• 33:25Speaker 01

  This is awful. So it just turns out his number one draft pick was your wife? What an a-hole.

• 33:31Speaker 02

  Dude traded integrity and reputation for a side piece in his circle.

• 33:35Speaker 01

  Something tells me that this is gonna ruin the whole season. No, in all seriousness, I am, I'm so sorry. I can only imagine how many things you're replaying in your mind right now. I mean, I don't know how people like this look themselves in the mirror, seriously.

• 33:47Speaker 02

  During the conversation where she admitted to having the affair, it became clear that she never planned to tell me. The guy got caught by his wife, and she had to tell me because they thought his wife was gonna tell me. She told me several of her work trips weren't really work trips, and she was with him. I learned that she had been using work travel as cover, and she and this guy had spent the last week in Mexico together when I found out.

• 34:10Speaker 01

  Oh, so she was like, I'm gonna be at this AI data analytics conference in Redwood City all week, kill me now. And meanwhile, she's drinking margaritas with this dude in Puerto Vallarta for potentially years this went on?

• 34:22Speaker 02

  It also turns out that my wife wasn't the only woman he was sleeping with besides his wife.

• 34:27Speaker 01

  Oh, well, I wonder if your wife knew and was cool with it, or if that was news to her because his wife just caught him texting tons of women?

• 34:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, I imagine it would be hard to call him out for that. Like, how dare you cheat on me with someone else while we're both cheating on our spouse, who are also friends, like, huh.

• 34:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know. It's hard to claim the moral high ground in a situation like that, but I'm sure that, you know, I thought I was special. What a mess.

• 34:48Speaker 02

  We had a pretty intense screaming match. I screamed at a volume, consistency, and clarity that I didn't know I had in me, and she didn't say much. It was about 12 minutes of me unloading years of pent-up emotions on her. I know it was 12 minutes because my Oura ring thought I was working out.

• 35:06Speaker 01

  Oh, gosh, that's funny. His Oura ring's like, unknown activity, golfing? No, actually, I'm giving my wife a piece of my mind and punching holes in the drywall.

• 35:15Speaker 02

  Hmm, 800 calories.

• 35:17Speaker 01

  Sounds about right. 100 calories for every year this is going on behind his back. What a night this must have been. This, ah, I hate this.

• 35:22Speaker 02

  I'm sorry. I don't want to dwell on this detail, but it's crazy that he's been stuffing down all of these thoughts and feelings for so long, and then he's like, 12 minutes? I gave her 12 minutes of my mind. Like, I'm sure he could have done hours.

• 35:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, no kidding.

• 35:37Speaker 02

  And also would have definitely hit his step count if he had. So he goes on, "I told her I texted a few lawyers I knew to recommend a divorce attorney who was, quote, 'a real motherf***er,' unquote, and could take the guy's side. She kept saying that I'd, quote, 'get half of a lot,' unquote, at a few points. I told her I could make it easy, but I couldn't make it painless, and said that as a C-suite executive at a major company, she probably had a morality clause, or at least needed to make sure she never expensed anything with this guy on these so-called work trips."

• 36:08Speaker 01

  Ooh, that is a shot across the bow. I love that for you, but I have more to say on that later.

• 36:13Speaker 02

  "We had a second, quieter conversation later that evening. It was clear that she did not comprehend the layers of shit she had gotten herself into. And it wouldn't just be me versus her. It was me and this guy's wife, her family, and the guy's family against my wife. They are all completely on my side. I'll admit that things were not good between my wife and me for some time. Communication had broken down between us. We weren't really getting along. From my perspective, she had been incredibly difficult. I felt criticized for everything I did, and her criticism was inconsistent. Whenever I felt like I had done enough, she kept moving the goalposts. Whenever I tried to invite any romantic interaction, she said I hadn't earned it."

• 36:55Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 36:56Speaker 02

  What did she mean by that? Like, what would earn physical intimacy for this person?

• 37:01Speaker 01

  Well, here's the thing. In a real relationship that's healthy, it could mean a few things. There could be a different dynamic setup, or that, or an unhealthy dynamic setup, or she could have some religious, right? But in this case, it might not mean anything, given that she was secretly carrying on with this other guy. It might have just been a way to get out of sex because she was already getting it elsewhere.

• 37:19Speaker 02

  "I thought that was due to high levels of stress from her job and other things. She did Ozempic and got an IUD, which I read messes with your sex drive, but nope, she was just screwing someone else and taking all her frustrations out on me."

• 37:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:33Speaker 02

  "She told me she had given up on our marriage."

• 37:35Speaker 01

  Oh, I'm so sorry, man. That must have been hard to hear. But that's very unequivocal, in my opinion. There's something to be said for knowing that so clearly.

• 37:43Speaker 02

  "That said, we were still a good parental team. We're on the same page on virtually every aspect of our girls' learning habits and how we want them to grow up. But they're also vulnerable and struggling emotionally in various ways. Our oldest is having a bad year because her friends are rejecting her and she wants to switch schools. Our youngest has felt abandoned by the nanny who left a year ago and is still only sleeping with one of us in bed with her. And our middle child has such big emotions. What would happen if the other woman's son screamed that he hated her mom for ruining his family? I told my wife that I'm worried about our middle going to school next week. Our ordeal would only make all of this worse. I'm torn about what to do next because being a stay-at-home dad meant I wasn't working,

• 38:28Speaker 02

  and we relied on her income, so my options aren't so black and white. I also had a small side hustle doing a weekly news and political talk podcast. It's a great outlet. We've put out over 80 episodes, grown our audience by four to five X from our first months. It's not a huge audience, but I love doing it. My co-host has become one of my closest friends. It's a lot of fun and has opened additional doors for me, including joining a larger project, creating news and video content for a local online political news publication that has become incredibly successful. Being a stay-at-home dad gave me the flexibility to write and shoot video content regularly. The founder was great. I'm part of an amazing team there, but for everyone but me, this was a side gig. It's really successful, and I was being paid, but that was only about $17.50 a month,

• 39:14Speaker 02

  mostly from our founder's own pocket, and it's hardly enough to live on. The problem is, in the event of a divorce, I will need way more than what this gig can give me. I'll have to find a real job with benefits. I'm not saying that's impossible, but four years out of the workforce makes it daunting. And any conventional job would almost certainly mean giving up writing in the podcast, which would pain me tremendously. Part of me wants to go scorched earth. She broke it, and now she has to pay for it. Wisconsin is a 50-50 state, and I could fight for half of our assets, which amount to millions of dollars, between the house, her company's stock, and her salary. But I can't pay for a lawyer for all that right now. Part of me wants to negotiate significant monthly spousal support. That way, we wouldn't have to fight over the assets. It would be cleaner.

• 39:59Speaker 02

  I'd still get something, and it would help me adjust to my new reality as a divorced dad who would need to rebuild everything. But my wife is now saying that she doesn't want a divorce."

• 40:09Speaker 01

  Bro, color me surprised. She just found out that she was her side piece's side piece, one of many, potentially. Gabe, I do wonder if in her mind, she was like, maybe one day I'll run off with this guy, but now she knows there's a gazillion others, so she's like, oh, no, I don't want a divorce. Also, ooh, I'd have to split all my stock? That sounds expensive. No, thanks, I want to stay together. I have a pretty good deal right now.

• 40:29Speaker 02

  "I know that for my wife, not getting divorced is less about me and my feelings and more about choosing the least complicated solution. I'll still be on dad duty, doing pickups and drop-offs and taking my kids to lessons, and she can stay in her home office all day, or travel, and I can only assume, screw other guys. She wouldn't have to worry about a new schedule."

• 40:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's also that. She has a really good deal right now.

• 40:52Speaker 02

  "So part of me is considering just being the cucked stay-at-home dad until my girls are old enough to understand why we would be getting divorced. My biggest concern is how they would react and whether this would traumatize them. I'm worried that they'd blame themselves. If they're older, maybe they'll be more mature, have better comprehension, and have more outside support than they do now at this age. I also know how bad this could look once it gets out that my wife had this affair with another parent at our school, which is probably coming sooner than I wanted to." And staying with her, I'm gonna look like a schmuck. The love I had for her is almost certainly gone. I don't know if it's worth the effort to try and rebuild.

• 41:30Speaker 01

  I mean, it doesn't sound like it. She told you she gave up on the marriage and she was never gonna tell you. It's not like she had a crisis of conscience or something like that. You're saying you probably don't love her anymore. I obviously understand that. She lied to you for literally years about this. It doesn't, what are you gonna work on here? There's nothing to work on here.

• 41:48Speaker 02

  The hole I'm in right now seems too daunting to climb out of. What are my options? What do I do here? Signed, torn between sitting back and going on the attack after finding out that my wife jumped in the sack with this guy who had a knack for making me feel like he had my back.

• 42:05Speaker 01

  Oh, that nickname is hard. That hits. That's, this is just, this whole letter is brutal to read.

• 42:10Speaker 02

  Uh, her boy just had a bomb dropped into the middle of his life in a way I can't even imagine. This is, this is very intense.

• 42:16Speaker 01

  It is, yeah. Obviously, any kind of infidelity is painful, but to find out that it was somebody that you were close friends with, someone you did family trips with and you went golfing with, who kept up this farce and lied to your face too, and was secretly shagging your wife? I mean, it's so gross and messy. And I'm sure that makes it hurt even more. I'm honestly amazed that he could write a coherent email in the middle of all this, cuz it sounds like it just happened.

• 42:39Speaker 02

  With that heart rate?

• 42:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's very impressive.

• 42:42Speaker 01

  Or a ring is like, hey, man, slow down. Something's affecting your resting heart rate. Oh, you think? I always get that one.

• 42:49Speaker 02

  Or a ring's like, something's affecting your heart rate. Are you writing into Feedback Friday?

• 42:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 42:53Speaker 02

  Logging those Feedback Friday calories in his phone.

• 42:55Speaker 01

  I, I think anyone would be a mess in this situation. So there aren't enough words to tell you how sorry I am about all this. Even if your marriage had other problems, problems apart from all this, it still hurts. It's a massive betrayal. And my heart goes out to you, man. We wanted to run your story by an expert, especially with all the legal stuff. So we've reached out to Greg Hitt, divorce attorney and mediator practicing in Austin, Texas. Greg also wanted to extend his sympathy. He's very sorry this is happening to you as well. And Greg was very clear with us. He said, you absolutely need to consult an attorney. He said, you can afford a paid consultation, which usually runs about 500 bucks, worth every penny. Greg's advice, steer clear of free consults, unless free consults are standard in your area. It sort of depends.

• 43:39Speaker 01

  Steer clear of heavily advertised billboard family law practices. Steer clear of national law firms that promote some sort of fathers' rights type representation. The whole fathers' rights moniker, in Greg's view, it's kind of a marketing gimmick to get you in the door. I'm not sure if that's the kind of lawyer you were referring to when you talked about a lawyer who would take the guy's side, right? But that's a great pro tip. Lawyers are gonna take their client's side. That's their job. In Greg's experience, what you need is an experienced specialist who practices family law in your county, not somebody who's three states away and has associate lawyers everywhere. Tell them the facts. Explain to them your situation. Let them guide you. Also, even if you decide not to divorce for some reason,

• 44:23Speaker 01

  Greg would still encourage you to see an attorney. Because your attorney might be able to negotiate a so-called post-nup, and that'll protect you when, in his words, the inevitable divorce comes months or years down the road. Now, about going scorched earth, I certainly understand the impulse. Your wife hurt you really bad. She was cruel and reckless. You're furious. I get it, I would be too. But Greg said you don't need to do that. And in his view, it's usually counterproductive. But insisting on your rights, that's not going scorched earth. And it doesn't mean you have to be nasty or unfair or whatever. You said that you and your wife are a good parenting team. In Greg's view, that's great, because that will be your relationship from here on out. You guys are co-parents, nothing more, really. Also, you guys have organized your lives

• 45:08Speaker 01

  such that one spouse is the primary breadwinner and one spouse is the primary caregiver for the children. Greg told us that in Texas, that's actually the most important factor in determining primary custody of children, absence of your dysfunction. You know, if you were an alcoholic, drug addict, whatever, you had severe mental illness that compromised your ability to parent. If stuff like that happens, that changes things. But if you're taking care of the kids all day and she's at work all day, that kind of settles that absent external factor. So in Greg's view, expecting to continue that arrangement is not unreasonable. Now, Greg is not licensed in Wisconsin. Obviously, his comments are not legal advice, nor are mine or anybody else here on the show. But he did tell us that Wisconsin's family law statutes provide that income earned and assets acquired during a marriage are marital property,

• 45:53Speaker 01

  while assets that pre-existed the marriage are individual property. Now, this is a generalization. There's always exceptions to these kinds of things. Maybe that'll help you wrap your head around what you might be entitled to here. But again, there are exceptions and nuances to these rules that you need to discuss with your attorney. And Greg was emphatic on this point. Spousal maintenance, post-divorce support, alimony, basically, that is not a substitute for a division of marital property. I'm glad he flagged this because I sort of noticed it when you wrote in. You were like, oh, maybe I'll just get alimony. Yeah, and you should also get a bunch of stock in the house. So these are two different things. So his advice, once again, get thee to an attorney.

• 46:31Speaker 02

  And to help guide you there, he had some principles and some tips that I think were really excellent. He wanted to share with you. Principle one, your wife's attorney is not your attorney. Do not consult with your wife's attorney because, you know, you wanna use one attorney to save money or because it's the path of least resistance, which is common.

• 46:47Speaker 01

  Or she's like, I'll pay for the attorney. We'll just use one. No, cannot stress this enough. We hear it on the show from time to time. Her attorney will not represent your interests. Get your own attorney. Do not make this mistake.

• 46:59Speaker 02

  On a related note, do not sign anything, anything presented to you by your wife or her attorney without consulting your attorney. Do not agree to anything, you know, informally before discussing it with an attorney. I know that probably doesn't need to be said, but I'm glad that Greg reminded us. Another principle he wanted to share, probably do not tell your children why you and your wife would be getting a divorce. His take is, leave them out of this. You said your marriage was already on the rocks before all this? And his experience, that's what a judge is gonna assume anyway? I second this. Your girls are what, between five and 11? I don't think they need to know that mom was carrying on with their dad's friend and dad felt, you know, neglected and pushed aside and disrespected in the marriage. And that's why dad lives in a studio apartment across town now or whatever.

• 47:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, more like, why is dad driving a Maserati to his five-bedroom house across town now, given what this spouse has? But look, I'm with Greg on that. That's a four-later conversation when the kids are older. And like, what do you mean your marriage was on the rocks? What was going on? Well, the triggering event, you know? And then it's like, oh, my gosh. But yeah, they don't need to know when they're nine or five or whatever.

• 48:03Speaker 02

  His third idea for you, don't try to use the divorce as a means to show the world who's right or, again, to get back at your wife. In Greg's view, it's not gonna work. And it would jeopardize the co-parenting relationship that you say works well. So Greg had a question for you, and it's one that I would definitely encourage you to really sit with and answer once your emotions have settled a little bit more and your aura ring calms down. Do you want vengeance or do you want peace?

• 48:28Speaker 01

  Man, that is the question. It's a hard one to answer in the immediate aftermath of all this. Short term, obviously, he wants vengeance and rightly so. But long term, obviously, you want and need peace. The thing is, just adding to Greg's perspective here, you don't need to pick vengeance or peace this week. I would choose clarity this week and for the short term. By that, I mean, take this time to work with your lawyer, gather as much information as possible, see how your wife responds to all this. You can decide how aggro or collaborative you wanna be after you have a full picture of assets, custody rules, support numbers, your wife's strategy. Because if she digs in her heels and tries to screw you on this, and yeah, I wouldn't settle just to get peace. You might have to fight for your due for a little while.

• 49:12Speaker 01

  But once you get what you are fairly entitled to, then you embrace peace. Also, while we're on this topic, I would not threaten your wife's career. I love the implied leverage here with the morality clause and the expense reports. That might help you get a settlement if you sort of say like, hey, by the way, you know, your job's not gonna like this. That might help you get a settlement. It might help you put the fear of God into her. But I would not seriously consider taking any action on that. You do not want to set fire to the significant income stream that you're about to ask a judge to divide. That would be a hugely expensive own goal.

• 49:47Speaker 02

  It's a really good point. You know, your anger, your desire for justice, your impulse to hit back at her, they are perfectly understandable. And I'm sure that your lawyer will be very keen to fight for what's fair. But in time, I would say, keep your eye on the prize, which, if I were in your shoes, it would be a harmonious and high-functioning family as much as possible. It's just, you cannot put a price on that. Greg's other piece of advice for you, do not let inertia make the decision for you when it comes to whether to separate or how or when. Get out ahead of this. Find out what your rights are. If you decide to stay in the marriage, make sure that's an affirmative choice. You are making that decision because you want to and that your rights are being protected.

• 50:23Speaker 01

  He can't just default to staying because it's easier. As Greg put it to us, you do not wanna find out a year from now that your wife has been arranging everything secretly to her advantage in preparation for a divorce filing that she is then gonna do. Because at that point, you are much worse off.

• 50:39Speaker 02

  And finally, to quote Greg here, divorce is hard. Getting therapy during the process can be very helpful.

• 50:44Speaker 01

  See, guys, it's not just us saying it. It's the professional divorce attorney who's seen this a thousand times.

• 50:49Speaker 02

  Thank you for falling on the sword this week, Greg. So I wanna talk about your daughters for a quick moment. I know your biggest concern right now is how they're gonna react to the news, whether this divorce would traumatize them, all fair concerns. It also sounds like they were somewhat vulnerable before all of this came to light, given the challenges that you mentioned. If you guys separate, I imagine that one of the hardest parts for them, certainly in the beginning, is just gonna be the change that it creates, right? Like, changes, of course, to their routines, to their relationships, to their feelings. So while you take steps to protect yourself, I would obviously also stay very close with your girls, make sure that they are being loved and cared for and listened to, which I'm sure you're gonna do, and that they have as much stability and connection as possible from you, because you're the primary caregiver, and that they hear from

• 51:32Speaker 02

  you that this is not their fault whatsoever, if that is actually how they feel. Maybe it won't be. I understand it's a fear of yours, but it doesn't mean it's gonna necessarily come to pass. And maybe you tell them, you know, this is entirely between me and mom. We're finding the best version of our relationship right now. We're still great partners as parents. We're still totally focused on you guys. And in that way, our family will not change. But you're in an interesting dilemma here. On one hand, you don't want to tell a six, seven, eight-year-old, you know, mommy and I are splitting up because she was sleeping with Danny from school's dad. Like, that would be crazy. On the other hand, it sounds like you guys are part of a fairly close-knit community. Your two families are connected, so it's possible that your kids will find out what happened, or at least sense that

• 52:14Speaker 02

  there's something complicated happening in the background that doesn't totally add up. So do you prepare them for that in advance? Do you wait and see if it comes up and then deal with it? I don't know, man. This is tricky.

• 52:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, that is tricky. If I were in your shoes, I would probably say as little as possible about the affair to your kids. Keep these conversations with them, more general focus on the kids. Because like, what if you try to get out ahead of this and you end up telling them way too much, and then it turns out to be unnecessary, and then you telling them is the thing that actually traumatizes them? That sucks.

• 52:44Speaker 02

  Here's the deeper thing in this part of his letter. I get the sense that he's the type of person who likes to game out different scenarios and dodge problems before they can arise, right? Or at least think about them a lot so that he can be prepared if they do happen.

• 52:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I get that vibe, too. I'm kind of like that. So of course, that approach is usually 20% actual strategy and 80% just grasping at control, doing the what-if game. Part of it is true planning and part of it is just rumination, really. And planning, okay, planning here is finding a lawyer, gathering the bank statements, figuring out housing, calculating income in your wife's stocks or whatever in her blue-chip company, all that stuff. Rumination is, oh, what are the other parents gonna think? Am I gonna look like a cuck? What happens if a kid says something to my daughter in three weeks? How are we gonna handle that? Well, should I take her out of school? Should we switch schools right now? Should I get ahead of this and give a dossier on the whole thing to the school so they can deal with it? The first category of thinking is smart and necessary,

• 53:40Speaker 01

  and the second category is just largely pointless and gonna drive you insane, take it from me. Not that I would not be driving down these same exact dead-end streets myself if I were in your shoes, but just voice of experience. And I mean, and not with an affair, but like with my business thing, I remember staying up every night being like, what if they do this? Oh, my God, then what am I gonna do? Then I'll do that. But then, oh, my God, that's gonna be awful. I just did that for weeks. And my wife was like, is that productive for you? And I was like, no, but I can't stop. And that's when it was like, oh, this is like, just anxiety. This is terrible. I basically stopped eating. It was really, really bad. So don't do that to yourself. Be aware of this and try to stop doing it.

• 54:14Speaker 02

  Cut to you and this guy buying a case of olive oil at a silent meditation retreat in 18 months.

• 54:18Speaker 01

  Exactly. Look, you can watch your monkey mind now, or you can watch it in Italy where they make you get up at 7:00 a.m. to sit cross-legged with no music. Your call. I know which one I'm picking.

• 54:28Speaker 02

  I think you're about to realize that there's a lot in this crisis that you will never completely control, from how your wife behaves, to how your kids make sense of this news, to what other kids at school have to say about it, to whatever new responsibilities and situations this whole transition is gonna create for you. And by the way, these things that you don't control, they're not all bad. Some of them might actually be good. Going back to that point from the retreat, you know, like, right now, you are crashing out and you're looking for everything that could go wrong. I think you're gonna find, because it always seems to be the case, that there's bad stuff and there's also good stuff.

• 55:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, suffering and opportunities, for sure. Over a long enough time horizon, though, how could it be worse than this?

• 55:06Speaker 02

  I don't think it can. So maybe the best advice we can offer you there is, by all means, yes, be strategic, be proactive, be intentional. But maybe one of the hidden upsides of this really devastating chapter is an opportunity to confront the part of you, and this part exists in, well, certainly in Jordan, but I think it exists in all of us, that wants to be able to predict and manage everything that's gonna happen. There's a part of that that is genuinely loving and responsible, right? You want to protect your kids, you want to handle this divorce. Well, great. There's also an aspect of this that is about managing other people's emotions, giving yourself a sense of power, hoping to spare yourself certain difficult feelings. For example, guilt about putting your daughters through this, which you didn't put them through this, but if you decide to divorce, it is

• 55:48Speaker 02

  gonna have some effect on them. Or having to, say, talk to a kid at school or their parents about not gossiping about you guys during lunch or whatever. So maybe part of your process here is gonna be noticing that second kind of thinking Jordan was just talking about, the second kind of control, and make some peace with the fact that the dust is gonna settle however it's gonna settle. Your job, I think, is to be proactive where you can, and then shift your focus to responding as kindly and as wisely as possible to each individual challenge. And trust that you will get through this transition pretty well that way.

• 56:19Speaker 01

  The reality is that he can't stop every bad thing he's imagining from happening, but he can control how he responds to them if they actually arise. But Gabe, I think this control piece is especially interesting in light of the dynamic between him and his wife. It sounds to me like there was a massive power imbalance in their relationship, or maybe more accurate to say, a complicated power structure, in which they each develop different forms of power that created interesting challenges, right? She made the money, he took care of the kids, she apparently made him earn her affection, he didn't always communicate with her honestly, or whatever. There's so much to say about all that. But I think one of the big things our boy struggles with in his marriage is the feeling of powerlessness.

• 56:59Speaker 02

  And the anger that comes with that powerlessness.

• 57:01Speaker 01

  In addition to the breakdown in communication and the criticism and all their other challenges, that's why his Oura ring thought he was doing a HIIT workout when he finally unloaded on her, right? He's been stuffing down a lot for a really long time, and all of a sudden he had permission to just let it all out, because, you know, she wasn't gonna stop him then. So this whole topic of grasping at control, I think that probably serves several purposes. One of them might be a subtle strategy to reclaim the power he didn't have in his marriage. And so his mind might be going, I didn't have power in my marriage, but at least I can have power in ruminating over all these things that were a result from the divorce, or in trying to game out all these scenarios. Then I'll be prepared. I'll let you decide if that resonates. Maybe it does, maybe not. I'm sure it's much more complicated than that, too. But I share that because I see a connection between these

• 57:44Speaker 01

  two parts of your story. I have a feeling that's gonna be a big theme for you in all this. Agency, your relationship with it, how you tap into it effectively. Also, man, just one piece of semi-gross, practical advice, I would get an STI test immediately. Your wife had a longstanding affair with a guy who had at least one other partner that you all know about, and probably a bunch that weren't in the texts. Who knows? So lord only knows what exotic strains of bacteria he's been collecting around, whatever, the Bay Area or wherever you guys live, and delivering to your wife. Maybe you're lucky she wouldn't, you know, hook up with you. Maybe she spared. In fact, look, pure speculation, maybe she didn't want to give you the thing she was taking antibiotics for in the first place,

• 58:28Speaker 01

  and that's why she rejected you. Who knows? Maybe you dodged a bullet, dude.

• 58:30Speaker 02

  Wow, calls for speculation, but it's not, I guess it's not impossible.

• 58:35Speaker 01

  Not impossible. As for your career conundrum, I gotta say, I was chuckling a little when you talked about your stress about getting a real job and not being able to do your podcast. Dude, your wife has serious assets, man. She cheated on you. You're about to get half or something close to it, plus potentially spousal support, because she works a crazy lucrative job and you are taking care of the kids and family. Look, this is me talking here. This is not Greg, not your lawyer. You go and you take half of her Adobe stock or whatever, and you good, homie. You're retired, okay? You're still gonna have to take care of your kids, obviously, but you don't have to go get a job. You work on your podcast with your bros. You join the rest of us dorks and do it for the love of the

• 59:16Speaker 01

  game and enjoy it. I doubt you have to set foot in an office ever again. You leave that to your wife, who has to rebuild her net worth. And it sounds like she's got a lot of long workdays ahead of her to do that. Half that stock, you can sell it, you can take loans against it, you're gonna get the spousal. I mean, come on, you don't have to go work some entry-level job because you've been out of the game for four years. LOL, sir. I'm very sorry you're going through this. I'm sorry for all the pain this has caused you and your daughters, but I'm confident you can find a way to move through this together. I'm actually, this is weird. I'm kind of excited for you because you get to start another life, free from all the baggage and drama with your ex, for the most part, you're still co-parenting. But I think you're gonna get a grip of cash. Take that bag and run,

• 1:00:01Speaker 01

  and use the goodwill right now that you have from her screwing up your entire life to get a really delicious settlement. Your attorney will help you with that. Sending you and your girls a big hug. Your wife, I don't know, I don't really want to give her a hug, especially before you get all of that blood work done. But I suppose I wish her well, too, because she's obviously struggling with some difficult stuff as well. And I'm not just talking about those expense reports for next quarter. Wishing you all the best. By the way, you can reach us, [email protected]. Keep your emails concise. Try to use a descriptive subject line. That makes our job a whole lot easier. If you're finding dead squirrels in your mailbox, your narcissistic parent is compromising your marriage, or your precocious and brilliant child just hacked your phone and you're torn between punishing her and praising her, whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us

• 1:00:42Speaker 01

  up, [email protected]. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. All right, you know who doesn't [bleep] around? The amazing sponsors that support this show. We'll be right back.

• 1:00:55Speaker 01

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• 1:02:50Speaker 01

  What's next?

• 1:02:51Speaker 02

  Dear Jordan and Gabe. Recently, my sister-in-law and her husband's house got raided by the FBI, local PD and CPS.

• 1:02:59Speaker 01

  Whoa, it, what is happening this week? Holy smokes.

• 1:03:02Speaker 02

  They had a warrant for his electronic devices and passwords.

• 1:03:06Speaker 01

  Ew, white collar crime? Or I don't know, the CPS angle makes me think it's not white collar crime.

• 1:03:11Speaker 02

  He's now being investigated by the FBI. According to the FBI, a crypto account he had from 2020 to 2023 had been used to make purchases of child sexual material in 2025.

• 1:03:24Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:03:24Speaker 02

  My sister-in-law's husband has the email from when he closed out that account in April of 2023. And the FBI said several times that the crypto was for the purchase, but not a download.

• 1:03:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, what does that even mean?

• 1:03:38Speaker 02

  No idea. The purchase, but not a download.

• 1:03:41Speaker 01

  Like someone purchased the CSAM but didn't download it? Who cares if it's not his account? Eh, that's weird. I don't get that.

• 1:03:48Speaker 02

  CPS showed up because they have my niece and nephew in the house. My nephew is an adult, but my niece is still a minor. Both were questioned about my sister-in-law's husband and released. In the process, CPS saw the condition of their house, which was messy and gave them a week to get things cleaned up. About six days later, local PD came by with an arrest warrant for my sister-in-law and her husband. My nephew called his grandmother, my mother-in-law, and she came and took my niece to stay at her house. My sister-in-law and her husband spent five days in jail before seeing a judge. Both the judge and CPS had no idea why they were brought in. The woman from CPS told the judge that she had given them time to clean up the house and hadn't even started working on their case.

• 1:04:31Speaker 02

  The judge also reprimanded the local PD for going to another judge to get the warrant. They then got released, but CPS issued a no contact order for my niece and a follow-up court date a few weeks out. When that court date came, the local police failed to show up. So my sister-in-law and her husband ended up getting a continuance, but with separate court dates for each of them. CPS called a few members of the family to get character references on my sister-in-law and her husband. CPS had names and birth dates either wrong or mixed up and had to be corrected on every call. CPS also had no clue on where my niece was since the case officer didn't take her into foster care. Remember, she was living at her grandmother's.

• 1:05:12Speaker 02

  My wife and I are currently doing everything we can to help, such as picking up our niece from school and relaying messages from my sister-in-law because of the no contact order. But now her husband isn't being very helpful on his case with the FBI. When they asked him for his passwords, he said no.

• 1:05:28Speaker 01

  Okay, but I would do the same. Refusing to help law enforcement potentially stitch you up for something you didn't do? That does not infer guilt. Any lawyer would be like, don't give them the passwords if you're not compelled to by law. The FBI asking you for your passwords to fish for what you did because they don't have enough evidence to pin it on you yet? No, that is not evidence of guilt. In a way, you could argue it's the opposite.

• 1:05:49Speaker 02

  So they took his two phones, work and personal, and a laptop that my sister-in-law and her husband say no one really used, but was in a communal space. As of right now, they have no new updates regarding the local PD, CPS or the husband's FBI case. We don't want to think he's the type of guy who would do something like what they're accusing him of. But his actions aren't helping his case.

• 1:06:11Speaker 01

  Based on this letter, I'm not totally convinced of that. I guess I, I get why he's saying that. What I'm hearing is this guy sold or closed this crypto wallet before the allegedly criminal purchase. And he has proof that he sold it or closed it. And he isn't volunteering to give law enforcement access to devices for a crime that he didn't commit. I just want to be clear about what we're hearing here.

• 1:06:32Speaker 02

  Might not have committed because we don't know.

• 1:06:34Speaker 01

  He probably says he didn't commit it, not, I might not have committed it, right?

• 1:06:37Speaker 02

  But we don't know if he did or not.

• 1:06:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, I have other thoughts on this that I'll share in a moment.

• 1:06:41Speaker 02

  Okay, I'm very curious. So he wraps up. What could we do to help my sister-in-law and her husband out? And what can we do to help get our niece back home with her parents? Doing right by my niece and trying to figure this out piece by piece now that her parents are tied up with the police.

• 1:06:56Speaker 01

  Oh boy, what a mess. CSAM, multiple investigations, weird law enforcement investigation stuff, now custody issues. This is a cluster. So first of all, really sorry this is happening to your family. I'm especially sorry for your niece and nephew. It's gotta be just awful for them to watch this happen to their parents, for your niece to be separated from her parents. I don't know how old she is. Obviously it's harder the younger she is, but whether their parents are guilty of any crimes or not, this is just extremely sad. So I gotta say candidly, a lot of the details in this story are very curious and rather confusing. But I think that's actually part of your story. So we wanted to run all this by an expert. So we reached out to Mary Hegart, an attorney who worked for over 10 years in dependency court in Los Angeles County

• 1:07:41Speaker 01

  and has represented parents and children in child welfare cases. And just FYI, Mary's experience is in California. She said other states probably deal with child welfare in different ways, of course. So Mary, you had a bunch of questions about your story and I'm glad she did because so do I. But for one thing, if the warrant and investigation focused on your sister-in-law's husband and it was his devices that were seized, why was she arrested? Is she implicated in this too? Did law enforcement turn up evidence about both of them? That's a bit odd. You also said that your nephew and niece were questioned about their parents and then they were released. To whom? Presumably their mom who was then admonished by CPS to clean the house?

• 1:08:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, but then Mary felt that the messy house was a weird detail as well. In her experience, the house would have to be so bad, like major hoarding or severe insect and rodent infestation or something like that. For the social worker to even get into this topic of clean up the house or there's going to be a problem. This could not have been like laundry lying around and dirty dishes in the sink.

• 1:08:40Speaker 01

  Exactly. Yeah, it has to be like, hey, there's cat feces rubbed into the carpet and your kids are, you know, not dressed and it's on their clothing and they smell. I mean, that's child welfare stuff, not like, hey, you didn't make the beds. Mary was also puzzled by the fact that local law enforcement came and arrested the parents and then left their son to call his grandmother who came and got his sister. In Mary's experience, if kids were home when law enforcement showed up, the cops would have called a social worker to come to the scene and make sure the minor was cared for. Now, maybe that did happen and the social worker allowed the grandmother to have custody of the child. Maybe that happened. Mary reminded us that the law favors placing children with relative caregivers over foster care. If this case ended up in juvenile court, then the judge would be required by law to make orders regarding your niece's placement.

• 1:09:25Speaker 01

  And they would have likely followed the recommendation of the social worker, placing your niece with her grandmother. But then when it came to the court date, you said both the judge and CPS had no idea why they were brought in? That was weird to me and Mary said she doubts this happened. I mean, they ended up in court, right? The case is on the docket and the judge and CPS are like, huh, weird. What are you guys doing here? That's gotta be our mistake. That just does not add up at all.

• 1:09:51Speaker 02

  Also, this was probably a juvenile court hearing, not a criminal one, because CPS would not be a party in the criminal matter. They probably wouldn't be present at an arraignment as far as we know. If this was an initial hearing in juvenile court, often called detention, then the social worker might be present. You also said that the judge reprimanded the local PD for going to another judge to get the warrant? I don't know, maybe that happened, maybe it didn't or not quite that way. Again, to Mary's ears, this sounds like nonsense, to use her words. I mean, why was there another judge in their case? What other judge? Was there another matter with these parents before another? Something about this just didn't quite add up for her.

• 1:10:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, so many of these details, again, don't make sense, don't add up, whatever to me either. And then you said CPS issued a no contact order for your niece. Mary explained to us that CPS actually has no authority to issue a restraining order. A judge in either the criminal or juvenile matter could issue a restraining order. Or the judge in the juvenile matter could have just made a court order for the parents not to have any contact, which is the more likely scenario in Mary's experience. She was also curious to know. Whom the stay away order applies to, is it dad? Is it dad and mom? If so, why mom as well? And then there's this detail about how your brother in law doesn't even know when his next court date is. That is baffling. Surely they each have an attorney representing them, right? They should be able to tell them when their court dates are.

• 1:11:11Speaker 01

  I have to imagine they'd be pretty keen to know when to show up to court and how all of this is going to move forward unless they are not seeking good counsel and are deliberately burying their heads in the sand, which I guess is possible, but I can't relate to that at all. If I had a case that was going to court, I would know that date. I'd know it better than the back of my hand. Also, Mary said that juvenile courts move faster than criminal courts. So even before the criminal matter is adjudicated, the juvenile court could theoretically make a finding that the dad and possibly the mom possessed the CSAM and order some kind of case plan to rehabilitate the parents. In that case, if they don't complete the court ordered programs, then the court could permanently remove custody from the parents. Just something to be aware of, that these are two parallel tracks and these two court

• 1:11:54Speaker 01

  systems have different timelines, different sentences and remedies, different implications. And actually, Mary said that this might be part of the confusion here, that there are two parallel proceedings going on and you maybe are conflating them. So for all these reasons, Mary felt that respectfully, you sound a little confused and maybe a little naive about what's really happening. But she also said that that's understandable because in her experience, you've probably been told one version, possibly a limited version or even a BS version of what's going on. And look, we assume you're getting your information from your in-laws and at best they're probably unreliable narrators right now. Now, look, we obviously can't know for sure what your brother in law did or didn't do, knew or didn't know. Maybe he's totally innocent and this is a horrible mix up.

• 1:12:38Speaker 01

  He sold his crypto, somebody used Ethereum that was in an account that he lost control of to buy CSAM and it traced back to him. Look, I want to say that that's very unlikely based on how the blockchain works. I suppose it's theoretically possible, given the, you know, a failure of several different things. Or this guy really did buy the CSAM with his crypto and he's guilty. Mary's take was naturally, you don't want to believe that a relative is capable of this type of behavior. Based on her experience with CSAM clients, sadly, she said, this guy is behaving a lot like somebody who is guilty. Now, I'm not totally sure I agree with that because we have all these confusing details. As I said earlier, I think these facts are just highly ambiguous, but I also don't have Mary's experience.

• 1:13:20Speaker 01

  Maybe she's seen this kind of thing 100 times and knows how these cases tend to go. But I do think that's an interesting perspective.

• 1:13:28Speaker 02

  So Mary's very direct advice about how to help your niece. Everyone involved has to play ball. To quote her here, the bottom line for any parent who is brought into juvenile court is that the way to get the child back in their custody is to follow the orders of the court. Full stop.

• 1:13:43Speaker 01

  Love that. Love the advice. Love the full stop. Was that deliberate? Thanks, Mary.

• 1:13:47Speaker 02

  I think it was. That's the long and the short of it, she said. And look, your niece's age, like Jordan mentioned, is obviously very relevant here. If she's 17, this is a much less fraught situation. Her parents can just wait it out. But if she's, you know, like eight, 10, 12 years old, then they're going to have to follow this reunification plan, whatever it is scrupulously, if they want to be reunited with their daughter. That of course is putting aside the question of whether she should be reunited with her parents, given what they might have done, but that's another question. And about having a better grasp of the case, Mary said that you might be able to go to the court and get the minute orders for the various hearings so that you and your whole family can see what the court orders actually are. But because you're not a party to the case, Mary said it's possible that you might not be entitled to access them.

• 1:14:27Speaker 01

  You know what? You could drive your sister in law or her husband to the court to get the minute orders. They should be able to request them. And Gabriel, this would be such a tell now that I think about it.

• 1:14:36Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:14:37Speaker 01

  Like, yeah, I'd love for you to read the court orders because it's just such a mess and you can see how we're being railroaded. And if they're like, oh, um, our lawyer says that we can't because they haven't been created because this whole thing's a mix up and they're just going to throw the case out so they don't exist. And that's like, uh huh.

• 1:14:51Speaker 02

  No, we'll go, we'll go and we'll send it later to you. Like, that would be interesting.

• 1:14:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's a tell here because I know if I'm accused of a crime and I'm innocent, I'm posting the flipping minute orders in my family group chat. Look.

• 1:15:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's going straight to Facebook.

• 1:15:07Speaker 01

  Maybe not. Hey, I've been falsely accused of child, child sexual abuse material. Can you guys believe it? But no, like I would want everybody who knows about this to know that this is a cluster and look at this mess and these documents and how angry the judge is and the transcript says, why, what are these people? They shouldn't even be here. Like, I want that on the record that everybody can see. So there's no doubt that I'm being railroaded. But if I did it and I'm lying to everybody, then I'm going to make up a bunch of excuses as to why I can't get these minute orders.

• 1:15:32Speaker 02

  Absolutely. And if I could just run with that for a second, I got a little dark Gabe pitch. A few days before you go drive them down to the court to get the minute orders, buy your sister in law's husband an aura ring as a gift and then measure his heart rate when you invite him to go get the minute orders.

• 1:15:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. The problem is they don't allow aura rings in prison. So it's going to sit in the box for a while after that.

• 1:15:54Speaker 02

  Bro's not in prison, right? He's out.

• 1:15:56Speaker 01

  Not yet.

• 1:15:56Speaker 02

  He's gonna, not yet. But if they just, if he just freaks out when they go to look at what the judge actually said, I think that might be interesting data. Another option though, if your niece has an attorney herself or a guardian ad litem in her case, you could try to contact that person or the social worker and say to them basically, hi, I'm so and so. I want to make sure I'm up to speed on this case. Can you tell me what's going on to the extent that you can? What does my sister in law need to be doing right now? What's the probable timeline here? Is there anything you can share with me to give me more insight on this case? Anything you can do to help? We'd really appreciate it kind of thing. And of course, your in-laws should have both have the best possible representation right now. I say that knowing, again, we might be talking about somebody who bought CSAM, but this is just blanket advice and it's directly related to Q1.

• 1:16:38Speaker 02

  You do not want to navigate this system with bad representation or no representation. That is a recipe for disaster.

• 1:16:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. Interesting theme on today's episode and your in-laws probably need to be a lot more proactive about staying on top of their case.

• 1:16:52Speaker 02

  Beyond the legal stuff, you're already helping care for your niece. I would also hope that you and your wife are giving her a lot of love and as much stability as you can during what I assume is a very tough and a very confusing time. Keep doing that. Invite her to talk as much as she wants, lean on you guys as much as she needs while this weird process unfolds. And that's about all you can do, unfortunately, which means that you and your wife mostly kind of have to sit back and allow this thing to take its course. And yeah, just sit with the sadness and the confusion and I can only imagine discomfort and frustrate. You know, it sounds a lot like my silent meditation retreat. All of these terrible feelings that come with something like this, this sounds like a strange and potentially troubling case. You and we do not have enough information to know for sure what your brother in law did or didn't do.

• 1:17:36Speaker 02

  But maybe that's besides the point. Right now, the point is two children, one of them a minor, are probably being affected profoundly by this event. And you and your family's job is to look for ways to support them however you can and just love them and be of service to your family. And yes, appropriately support their parents as well.

• 1:17:53Speaker 01

  While also pushing for as much information as possible so you can be truly informed and being a tad more ambitious and discerning about the facts in this case. Very sorry you guys are going through this. Wishing you, your wife, your niece and nephew, all the best and good luck. Big thanks to Mary Hegart for her insight and experience here as well. All right, Gabe, you know, it's a better use of your money than shopping the dark web. The fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back.

• 1:18:22Speaker 00

  At Lowe's, this Veterans Day and every day, military members, veterans and their spouses get automatic Milo's Rewards Silver Status Benefits. Plus 10% off eligible purchases with no annual limit. It's one way we honor and give back to those who have served and still do. Learn more and verify now at lowe's.com/military. 10% discount can't be combined with another offer. Exclusions, terms and conditions apply. Loyalty program subject to terms and conditions. Details at lowe's.com/terms. Subject to change.

• 1:18:50Speaker 01

  If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and find our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do. Take a moment, support our amazing sponsors. They're all searchable and clickable on the website at jordanharbinger.com/deals. Any problems with any codes? Can't find a code? Something not working? Email us, [email protected]. Someone here will dig up that code for you. It is that important that you support those who support the show.

• 1:19:15Speaker 01

  Now for the recommendation of the week.

• 1:19:16Speaker 05

  I am addicted to Litville.

• 1:19:19Speaker 01

  My recommendation of the week is an app, online app called TurboScribe. TurboScribe is really, it's super simple, really easy way to get an accurate, high quality transcription from an audio or video file. So let's say you got a YouTube link and you're like, oh, I need the transcript for my class or I want to grab something and use it for another project. This is actually 100% free for up to three files per day, up to 30 minutes per file. No credit card required. And they, they say they never train AI on your transcripts, although, you know, everything in the world's already in there anyway. Who cares in my opinion? But if it's something personal, they're not going to upload it to AI and have it save. They love and they welcome the free users. They're not going to bug you constantly to upgrade. Their paid plans are also affordable. I'm a paid user.

• 1:20:04Speaker 01

  It starts at 10 bucks a month and all of the paid plans include unlimited transcription. So it's something you can use if you have a podcast and you want transcripts and you're paying a really expensive piece of software that does a million other things to transcribe, you might be paying per episode what you would pay per month with TurboScribe paid edition. And you might even be able to get away with using it for free, depending on how long your stuff is. You can find this at turboscribe.ai. We'll link to that in the show notes. It's run by a single dude. It's just a really easy and useful tool. Turboscribe.ai. All right, what's next?

• 1:20:38Speaker 02

  Dear Jordan and Gabe, a while back, you shared some words from a family who had just lost their father, who was a devoted show fan. They shared some details about his life with you guys and you were both touched.

• 1:20:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, Pete Donella. What a sweet guy.

• 1:20:51Speaker 02

  Pete Donella. Nice to remember Pete. Shout out to Pete. And his family, who I hope still listen.

• 1:20:55Speaker 01

  I have a little weird feeling. I'm gonna get a little emotional in a second here. It's a good thing I don't meditate. I'd actually have to sit with those feelings. No, thank you.

• 1:21:02Speaker 02

  He'll cry about this letter in three weeks. Well, here I am in a similar situation. My 92 year old mom has been ill for a few months and yesterday she shared with me that she had made the decision to not fight any longer.

• 1:21:15Speaker 01

  Dang, why do you guys, why do you guys do this to me?

• 1:21:17Speaker 02

  While no one knows how long she'll last in her new state of mind, we have that clock running out feeling.

• 1:21:22Speaker 01

  Oh, so sorry, friend. That is intense.

• 1:21:25Speaker 02

  A few years ago, I was driving my mom somewhere. I hadn't figured out how to play GPS without playing a podcast at the same time. So naturally, we listened to a Feedback Friday episode, punctuated by the sound of turn left at the light.

• 1:21:38Speaker 01

  Uh, yes, the way the show was meant to be enjoyed with a voice assistant constantly saying accident ahead, traffic ahead.

• 1:21:44Speaker 02

  Accident ahead would actually be a highly relevant soundtrack for Feedback Friday.

• 1:21:48Speaker 01

  That is that definitely for Q1s and in this case, Q1s and Q2s, that's for sure.

• 1:21:52Speaker 02

  We should sample that for the sound bites and use it.

• 1:21:54Speaker 01

  Gonna get sued by Alphabet, but yeah, I'll get on that.

• 1:21:57Speaker 02

  When it's like not as stressful of a story, it's traffic ahead. And then every so often it'll be like, is the cop still there? Does Google Maps ever ask you that?

• 1:22:04Speaker 01

  No, is that a thing?

• 1:22:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, like if they tell you if there's a cop, like a speed trap and then it'll pop up on your GPS and you can say if it's still there and that's how they gather the data.

• 1:22:13Speaker 01

  I did not know that. No, I guess I don't use that feature.

• 1:22:16Speaker 02

  So she goes on, my mom became a show fan and we often like to talk about episodes or listen to them together. Fast forward and she's formed the habit of listening to podcasts as she sleeps. The past couple of nights, she wanted an all Jordan Harbinger show feed. She was very patient while I fiddled with her phone to queue a bunch of your episodes. My mom is spending the time she has left in the nursing wing of her retirement community, getting daily messages from a wide variety of people in her life. I'm able to visit her every day after work and the family members she loves the most are flying in for the weekend. No one wants to say goodbye, but she's doing it right.

• 1:22:51Speaker 01

  Sure is. Lucky lady.

• 1:22:52Speaker 02

  But then, plot twist, possibly spurred by a surprise visit from close family, my mom rallied in the last few days. She's gone from seemingly preparing for an imminent exit and unable to sit up in bed without help to a renewed interest in some projects she had going on before getting sick and planning and thinking about what her life will look like with some limitations she didn't have before. She looks like a whole new person. The change has been sudden, dramatic and altogether welcome.

• 1:23:21Speaker 01

  Wow. Yeah, that's amazing. I don't want to take all the credit, but I will take at least half the credit.

• 1:23:26Speaker 02

  Come to think of it, her turn for the better occurred after two solid nights of listening to your show.

• 1:23:32Speaker 01

  I'm glad we're on the same page. You're welcome. Put me in the will.

• 1:23:35Speaker 02

  My mom now spends most of the day thinking about stuff that she wants to get done.

• 1:23:39Speaker 01

  Like the will that I'm gonna be in? Yeah.

• 1:23:42Speaker 02

  That's right. Only you, not Gabe.

• 1:23:44Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:23:44Speaker 02

  A fair bit of which relies on my help.

• 1:23:46Speaker 01

  So that's H A R B I N G E R and I'll send you a mailing address for the disbursement check. A C H is fine too.

• 1:23:54Speaker 02

  Use Wise, please, just for the fees. It must be incredibly frustrating for someone who has been so independent to have to scale back her expectations so far. We're keeping a shared checklist and I can knock off a few items each weekend, but I need to make sure I'm also taking care of myself. She has an amazing community, tons of support, but some stuff just needs to be done by me. So now there's worry, happiness, being on edge, this responsibility and some anticipatory grief. A lot rattling around.

• 1:24:23Speaker 01

  I bet. What was that phrase you taught me the other week? The full tumbleweed, something?

• 1:24:28Speaker 02

  The full tombola.

• 1:24:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's what she's going through. The full tombola.

• 1:24:31Speaker 02

  Dr. Margolis is listening to this episode cracking up in her car right now. Yeah, this is the definition of the full tombola. She is in touch with everything. So she wraps up. How can I best support my mom in this new phase? Any advice for navigating the complex emotions that come with such extreme uncertainty? Signed, celebrating this longer lifespan, but struggling to come up with a game plan after my mom's miraculous turnaround.

• 1:24:56Speaker 01

  That doesn't rhyme, but I'll allow it. What a letter.

• 1:24:58Speaker 02

  I was hoping you would seize on that fact. I was like, is he gonna notice that game plan and turnaround? Yeah, it doesn't rhyme.

• 1:25:05Speaker 01

  No, I'm gonna notice. Of course I'm gonna notice that. I'm not the only one who noticed. A hundred thousand people just went, huh?

• 1:25:10Speaker 02

  Every writer has his lesser works. They're not all bangers.

• 1:25:13Speaker 01

  Facts.

• 1:25:13Speaker 02

  Okay. Yeah, I had to do it.

• 1:25:15Speaker 01

  Anyway.

• 1:25:15Speaker 02

  Criticism aside, this letter is very touching.

• 1:25:19Speaker 01

  And dramatic. I was like, oh no, I see where this is heading. Then she had this miraculous turnaround because of me. That's gotta be quite a roller coaster for both of them, actually.

• 1:25:28Speaker 02

  Life is wild, man. One day you're like, okay, I gotta start saying goodbye to my mom, I guess. And then queue up a few deuce cruises. And next day you're like, okay, let's tackle the garage together. Let's do this.

• 1:25:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, mom wants a squirrel box in the backyard. Exactly. So which future are we planning for here? My crushing grief or my overwhelming joy that I get more time with my mom?

• 1:25:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, funny how that idea keeps showing up on today's episode. I didn't plan that.

• 1:25:51Speaker 01

  I suppose it's always both, right? So how do you support your mom in this new phase?

• 1:25:56Speaker 02

  Big question.

• 1:25:57Speaker 01

  Right. And also an ambiguous question.

• 1:25:59Speaker 02

  Cause like, what is this new phase? It's hard to say. It's confusing.

• 1:26:02Speaker 01

  Like she said, a ton of uncertainty. Maybe your mom's tapped into some new life energy and she sticks around for many more months, hopefully as long as possible, of course. Or maybe she's found a second win, which is awesome, but it's a temporary phase.

• 1:26:14Speaker 02

  Or she's gonna move between the two a few times. It's kind of impossible to know with these things. Such a mystery.

• 1:26:19Speaker 01

  Right. So what does your mom really need right now? You know, I would follow that. Obviously she needs help with certain practical things and a lot of those things are in your interest too. Projects you guys want to finish while she's around. Administrative stuff you guys need to take care of, estate planning. I generally prefer cash, but I'll take property in a pinch. Organizing friend, family visits, all that stuff. On that note, I would say definitely support your mom in making the most responsible decisions about her affairs now while she's around and sound. Making sure those beneficiary forms for her pension or investment accounts are complete and up to date. Make sure her will and trust are airtight, for real.

• 1:26:58Speaker 01

  Make sure they don't include ex husbands or have a misspelled name on them and they've been updated since your youngest siblings were born, all that jazz. Anyone your mom wants to talk to or spend time with, obviously that's something you could help her with. You know, if she's got friends or there's family that would normally have flown in, but it was too late, now is the time. Getting around to any appointments, taking care of herself. You're probably on top of that part, but you're probably asking more like, what does she need emotionally? And I imagine it's a few things. Tenderness, togetherness, intimacy. Time and connection with you, with the people she loves, which again, it sounds like you're already giving her probably a sense of being cared for and being listened to. Maybe your mom wants to talk about what it's like to be her age in this stage of life and everything it brings up.

• 1:27:43Speaker 01

  Maybe she wants to tell stories, relive old memories. I'm sure listening to her would mean a lot to her. I know it'll also create some great memories for you after she's gone and make you feel like you spent your time with her wisely. I mean, that's ultimately all there is, right? Just you and the other person talking or not talking, just being with each other.

• 1:28:02Speaker 02

  It sounds to me like your mom is meeting this huge transition pretty well with a lot of clarity, a lot of conviction. There's sadness here, but that's great. You know, that she's getting to choose how she wants to go. But anybody who's approaching death must be in touch with so many things. Fear and anxiety and sadness and worry, but also who knows, maybe like relief, maybe even curiosity. Everybody is different. So if your mom seems to want to talk about that stuff with you, I know not everybody wants to, but if she does, then I think listening and being in those feelings with her, that would be a really great gift as well.

• 1:28:32Speaker 01

  And look, if you're ever unsure about what she needs, you could literally say, hey, mom, what's on your mind? Do you need anything? How can I support you? And see what she says. Maybe she knows and she'll tell you, or maybe she doesn't, but you can help her find it.

• 1:28:45Speaker 02

  Totally. That's an act of love too, right? Just asking that question. Your second question is kind of one of my favorites. How do we navigate the complex emotions that come with such extreme uncertainty?

• 1:28:54Speaker 01

  That is the question. Yes.

• 1:28:56Speaker 02

  So not to be that guy who just came off of a silent meditation retreat.

• 1:29:00Speaker 01

  Here we go.

• 1:29:01Speaker 02

  But to absolutely be that guy who just came off of silent meditation retreat.

• 1:29:05Speaker 01

  Old Gaby namaste is over here.

• 1:29:07Speaker 02

  I like your word navigate as opposed to manage or cope with or I don't know, get rid of. A big part of your job right now, it seems to me, is to just let those feelings be. I mean, they're happening, they're appropriate. You're saying goodbye to a parent. It's a very big loss. And the fact is, there is not a ton to be done with these feelings. Except of course, feel them and let them remind you how much your mom really matters to you.

• 1:29:28Speaker 01

  I agree with that despite my roasting.

• 1:29:30Speaker 02

  Navigating them could also mean asking yourself, okay, what would be the best use of this feeling? Like, how can I direct it in a way that would make this time with my mom even more valuable? So if you're feeling, let's just say, super sad one day that you don't know how much longer your mom is gonna be here. You could use that feeling to really make the most of your interactions with her, to really be present when you're with her, to extend your trip home and spend extra time with her. Or if you're feeling another day, let's just say angry, also a big part of grief. Maybe you channel that anger into making plans with your mom or being more ambitious about the projects you want to tackle with her. Asking yourself how you want to spend your own life, based on what you're learning by watching your mom go through this. And same with anxiety, same with fear, same with anticipatory regret.

• 1:30:11Speaker 02

  These are all very meaningful responses to the massive question mark that you and your mom are facing. But ultimately, the only thing we can really do with uncertainty is just remember to enjoy. Make good use of whatever you have right now and enjoy. What else is there?

• 1:30:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, so true.

• 1:30:28Speaker 02

  I totally sound like a guy who just bought a case of Benedictine olive oil. I realize.

• 1:30:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:32Speaker 02

  Hopped up on pure awareness, bro, but all we have is now. That is it. Now, what else is there? So how are you gonna use this now or this string of nows, however long it lasts with your mom? That's the question.

• 1:30:44Speaker 01

  Hits blunt. For, for sure though, it's, it's something I think about with my parents too. Especially my mom, obviously like, we all know where this is going. We all. Are heading for the same place. It's fricking terrifying. But then I go, all right, you can't change the facts. You can't know what you can't know. So how are you going to spend today? How are you going to spend the next hour, the next five minutes? That's it. I don't always manage to do this well, but I'm trying and it's just so easy to forget. But listen, if you ever have days where you just don't know what to do for your mom or how to deal with these feelings, I think a helpful question is, if mom died sooner than I expected, what would I wish I'd done? And then you have your next step. Go do that thing. But then there's the equally important inverse, which is if she lives another two years,

• 1:31:28Speaker 01

  what will I regret having sacrificed because I treated every single second like it was her last? You can't neglect your health and your relationships and your career because you're in constant anxiety that she could go any minute. You don't want to lose yourself entirely in this process. You also have to have a reasonable balance with your own needs.

• 1:31:46Speaker 02

  Which will also help you make the most of your time with your mom. So very important.

• 1:31:50Speaker 01

  Both your futures deserve consideration here. So no pat answers to these big questions, more like approaches and a general awareness.

• 1:31:57Speaker 02

  Oh, who's drinking the olive oil now? Awareness.

• 1:32:01Speaker 01

  I knew you were going to catch on that. What can I say? Your silent meditation vibes rubbed off on me today. Bit easier to embrace with these big existential questions. Very sorry you're having to say goodbye to your mom. I can only imagine how intense that must be. I am not looking forward to going through that same process, maybe soon myself. But you seem to be doing an amazing job, all things considered, and you're asking all the right questions. So thank you for writing in. Big thanks to your mom for being part of our show family. Love that she joined the Doos Cruise and glad our voices can put her to sleep at night. Again, you are welcome for keeping her alive. We are sending you both a huge hug and wishing you lots of great moments together and many more episodes of this very show. Don't forget the episodes with Jeff Scoop, former neo-Nazi leader here in the United

• 1:32:45Speaker 01

  States for 25 years, and the episode on travel health with Andrew Herr, founder of Flykit. Have a listen to those if you haven't done so yet. And go call your mom if you haven't done that yet. Shout out to our listener for that important reminder. Literally go do it right now. Well, not right now because I'm about to plug my networking course and remind you to support our sponsors, but in about 30 seconds, call your mom and then thank me later. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network, the circle of people I know, like and trust. Six Minute Networking is free. It's not gross. It's not schmoozy. It's on the Thinkific platform at sixminutenetworking.com. The drills take a few minutes a day. I wish I knew this stuff 20 years ago. Dig that well before you get thirsty, folks. Build relationships before you need them. SixMinuteNetworking.com is where you can find it.

• 1:33:26Speaker 01

  Advertisers, discounts, ways to support the show, all at jordanharbinger.com/deals. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Gabe's on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi. This show was created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogerty, Ian Baird, Tadisidlouskas, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I might be a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Consult a qualified professional before implementing anything you hear on the show. Ditto Greg Hitt and Mary Hegart. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with someone else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time.

• 1:34:09Speaker 01

  Okay, now go call mom during these cheesy and potentially irrelevant post-roll ads.