1387: Romance in Rome Ends with Lien on Your Home | Feedback Friday

He took you to Italy, then billed you $21,000 for it. Do you sue him for fraud, or chalk it up as the priciest date ever? Welcome to Feedback Friday! And in case you didn't already know it, Jordan Harbinger (@JordanHarbinger https://twitter.com/JordanHarbinger) and Gabriel Mizrahi (@GabeMizrahi https://twitter.com/GabeMizrahi) banter and take your comments and questions for Feedback Friday right here every week! If you want us to answer your question, register your feedback, or tell your story on one of our upcoming weekly Feedback Friday episodes, drop us a line at [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. Now let's dive in! Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/1387 https://jordanharbinger.com/1387 On This Week's Feedback Friday: If Gabe's movie news isn't quite your bucket of popcorn, we'll give you the full Hollywood treatment and roll out the red carpet, and you can skip to the first question at 26 minutes and 30 seconds! You met a charming guy who works for a judge — set up by the police chief's wife — and he whisked you off to Italy. Back home, instead of a sweet text, came a $21,000 invoice, a small-claims loss, and a lien on your property. Is suing him for fraud worth the fight, or was this just the priciest date in history? You wrote in a while back about a rocky marriage and a spark with a woman from a conference in Indiana. Now the fuller picture emerges — explosive rages, extreme OCD, counseling flatly refused — and divorce papers sit with your attorney. How do you share a roof once she's served, and will moving out cost you custody? Recommendation of the Week: Isopure Protein Drink https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BNR17Y4Y/?tag=jordanharbing-20 — a light, Gatorade-like alternative to milky shakes that packs 32 grams of protein, goes down easy mid-workout, and, unlike nearly every other protein drink, still tastes fine warm. Jordan found it after sampling the protein-spiked teas of Hong Kong. You're 45, married almost 20 years, with four kids and a warehouse career you helped grow from $1M to $40M. Then came the numbness, the lost names and dates, the flashes of temper — plus a layoff and open-heart surgery. Is this depression, early-onset dementia, or just midlife, and where do you even turn for help? Have any questions, comments, or stories you'd like to share with us? Drop us a line at [email protected] mailto:[email protected]! Connect with Jordan on Twitter at @JordanHarbinger https://twitter.com/JordanHarbinger and Instagram at @jordanharbinger https://www.instagram.com/jordanharbinger. Connect with Gabriel on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi https://twitter.com/GabeMizrahi and Instagram @gabrielmizrahi https://www.instagram.com/gabrielmizrahi/. And if you're still game to support us, please leave a review here https://itunes.apple.com/podcast/id1344999619?mt=2&ls=1 — even one sentence helps! Sign up for Six-Minute Networking https://jordanharbinger.com/course — our free networking and relationship development mini course — at jordanharbinger.com/course https://jordanharbinger.com/course! Subscribe to our once-a-week Wee Bit Wiser https://www.jordanharbinger.com/news/ newsletter today and start filling your Wednesdays with wisdom! Do you even Reddit, bro? Join us at r/JordanHarbinger https://www.reddit.com/r/JordanHarbinger/! This Episode Is Brought To You By Our Fine Sponsors https://www.jordanharbinger.com/deals/: Factor: 50% off first box: factormeals.com/jordan50off, code JORDAN50OFF https://www.factormeals.com/jordan50offTushy: 10% off: hellotushy.com, code JORDAN10 https://hellotushy.com/Xero: Learn more: xero.com https://www.xero.com/Chime: Open an account in two minutes: chime.com/jhs https://www.chime.com/jhsSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 1:04Speaker 01

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• 1:33Speaker 02

  Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, the vegan sorbetto to my tradisch gelato, Gabriel Mizrahi. On the Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people. Our mission is to help you become a better-informed, more critical thinker. And during the week, we have long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, organized crime figures, war correspondents, neuroscientists, extreme athletes. This week, we had Sean Wisswasser, former CIA spy, on the bungling KGB. Are they super spies, or are they just kind of corrupt buffoons? Or is it maybe a little bit of both? This was a fascinating look inside the KGB, well, from the perspective of the CIA, of course. We also did a Skeptical Sunday last Sunday on food deserts, which

• 2:17Speaker 02

  was quite surprising to sort of left-leaning Jessica and myself, who'd heard of these and just assumed it was a thing everybody agreed existed. Anyway, on Fridays, though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, and compare ourselves to various European desserts, because we're both tasty international snacks, Gabe.

• 2:35Speaker 03

  Also, I'm in Italy and the topic of gelato keeps coming up, so yeah, you had to do it. You know, you had to do it.

• 2:41Speaker 02

  My backup option was the cream-colored Vespa to my matte-black F-150, but the one, I don't own an F-150, and the ice cream one seemed more apt somehow.

• 2:50Speaker 03

  That's right. You drive a Tesla, so who are we kidding? I think we both do, actually.

• 2:53Speaker 02

  The chow to my what-it-do, bra.

• 2:56Speaker 04

  Hello, show fam. It's Jace here. If Gabe's movie news isn't quite your box of popcorn, we'll give you the full Hollywood treatment and roll out the red carpet, and you can skip to the first question at 26 minutes and 30 seconds. Enjoy the show.

• 3:13Speaker 02

  So you're in Bergamo, huh?

• 3:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, I got here last night. I'm visiting some friends in the area, and then I'm going up to the mountains tomorrow, which are supposed to be really beautiful. And then, week after next, oh, you're gonna love this, I'm doing a silent meditation retreat at a Benedictine abbey near Lake Garda.

• 3:30Speaker 02

  Color me shocked. You know what? There is some irony to a podcaster doing a silent meditation retreat.

• 3:35Speaker 03

  I actually mentioned that on the intake form, just so they could roll their eyes harder at me.

• 3:39Speaker 02

  Yeah. A podcaster doing silent meditation, that's a, it's like a hot dog-eating champion celebrating Ramadan.

• 3:47Speaker 03

  I'm not gonna lie, I'm actually a little scared about this one. I think I'm more scared about this than when we went to North Korea. We were dumber then, but also, like, you know, you could be silenced there, but at least you can talk on the bus.

• 3:59Speaker 02

  Exactly. Like, we might throw you in prison and roast you over an open fire with a hook, but you're allowed to scream. Yeah.

• 4:08Speaker 02

  My friend Olivia Fox Cabana is this, she's this author of The Charisma Myth, and she's just, she used to do these week-long silent meditation retreats, and she's like, "You gotta do it." I'm like, "I can't think of anything more." I mean, maybe being stuck in a pipe or an elevator filling with water, or like, an underground cave that's flooding is scarier, but only by a little. I really don't want to be in a place where I have to stare at a wall, not talking, or looking at any input. That's just, no, it's a nightmare for me. You can't talk at all.

• 4:38Speaker 03

  I don't think so, unless there's an emergency, or you need to ask the meditation teacher or something. But you just invented a whole other problem. It's not sitting and staring at the wall for 12 hours a day. Like, it's a beautiful place, I'm sure you can walk around, you just can't talk.

• 4:51Speaker 02

  But can you read a book? Can you write?

• 4:54Speaker 03

  I think so. I think so. I'm not totally clear on the rules. I know at some silent meditations, you can't even do that. No reading, no writing, you just have to be with yourself. But I think at this one, you can.

• 5:03Speaker 02

  Anytime that I only have myself for company, it just sounds like a nightmare. Now I understand my wife a lot better, but yet, no, I would never want to just be alone with myself. I can't think of anybody I'd rather be with less than myself.

• 5:17Speaker 03

  If only they had a practice for coming to terms with that. What is it called? Meditation?

• 5:22Speaker 02

  How long is this thing again?

• 5:23Speaker 03

  Four and a half days.

• 5:24Speaker 02

  Oh, just.

• 5:25Speaker 03

  Just four and a half.

• 5:26Speaker 02

  Oh my god, no.

• 5:28Speaker 03

  Vipassana retreats are 10 days, I believe, so this feels doable.

• 5:32Speaker 02

  Yuval Noah Harari, he does like, a month a year, or two months a year, silent. And when he told me, I just had this visceral stomach ache reaction, and I was like, "Wow, I'd rather do those body modifications you see on Reddit."

• 5:48Speaker 02

  You know what I'm talking about. And your goal is what? Do you have one, or is it just like, a cool thing to try?

• 5:56Speaker 03

  I want to learn more about meditation. I'm very inconsistent with it, and the teacher is apparently very good. I guess I'm just curious, like, what is it like to be in silence all day for four days in a Benedictine monastery in Italy? It just sounds cool.

• 6:08Speaker 02

  Yeah. There's a horror movie somewhere in there.

• 6:11Speaker 03

  You mean, the horror movie of being stuck with yourself for four and a half days?

• 6:14Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 6:15Speaker 03

  No, but the setting as well, right? It's like a quiet place, except the aliens or the monks trying to make you happy.

• 6:20Speaker 02

  Yes. I've also had some experience. You ever seen Back Rooms? Have you seen that movie yet?

• 6:24Speaker 03

  I haven't seen that. No, yeah, we talked about it, but I haven't seen it.

• 6:27Speaker 02

  That's what I imagine it's like in there, just with myself alone, just back rooms.

• 6:31Speaker 03

  I've also had some experiences with silence that were really cool. Like, when I did yoga teacher training last year, they had this rule that you couldn't talk during the meals. And I found it really interesting, because it ended up being a mix of incredibly awkward and also kind of profound. And you realize how much talking covers up your awareness of some, obviously, very important things, right? Like, your thoughts, and your mood, and the sound of nature, whatever. Even your appreciation for the moments when you can talk. And I love that. So I guess, yeah, I guess I want to go more deeply into that.

• 7:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's probably why I talk so much and even do it for a living. I don't want to hear any of those things. My internal voice? No, thank you. Quite annoying. Yeah, no, it's, I'm mostly kidding, but I think I would still, I still think I'd go out of my skull.

• 7:14Speaker 03

  Going out of your skull is part of it, I think. But I'll report back, and I'll give you, I'll give you the post-game wrap-up, and we'll talk.

• 7:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm so curious. I need a little field report after. A lot of people, my friends have done these silent retreats, and they're always like, "Oh, it was hard." Yeah, and they never really want to talk about it. Probably, maybe it's hard to articulate.

• 7:29Speaker 03

  I'll try. It'd be funny if that episode were just an hour and a half of Feedback Friday, but it's just silence.

• 7:34Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, you know what? My production costs would be lower, so I'm okay with that. Our listeners can't hear the letter. The only thing they hear is six minutes of silence, and then me going, "Well, I'm sorry to hear that your mother-in-law stole your dog and ran away to Mexico," so they can still play the drinking game.

• 7:47Speaker 03

  That's right. And then more silence, and then you roasting me for something that they don't understand, and silence, and then some Dark Jordan pitches, and then the ad breaks.

• 7:54Speaker 02

  There was an episode I did years ago, where, for some reason, my audio just didn't work. And now, and it makes sense, because she was like, "Can you repeat that?" And I was like, "This lady needs hearing aids." And she had a producer who just didn't tell me that I was unintelligible the whole time. So it was unairable, and Jace is like, "You're gonna hate this idea, but the way to do it is, you listen to what you said, you try to reconstruct it as best you can, and you just re-record that thing for the whole show." So the entire show was pickups of me listening to like, and then I would go, "Oh, wow, that's really interesting," just to record. And he took all of those and manually inserted them?

• 8:36Speaker 03

  I'm not doing that.

• 8:37Speaker 02

  No.

• 8:37Speaker 03

  Sorry.

• 8:39Speaker 02

  If you take a vow of silence because of this nonsense, we are gonna have words. One-sided words.

• 8:44Speaker 03

  Well, you'll have words. I'll just nod along and be very happy.

• 8:48Speaker 02

  Before we kick off here, Gabe, I wanted to thoroughly embarrass you and ask you about the big announcement last week.

• 8:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, crazy. It's a crazy thing.

• 8:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, okay. So you're driving from Barcelona to some seaside town or whatever, and we're trying to chaotically coordinate a recording, and then all of a sudden, I see this article saying that one of your movies, Otherwise Engaged, is happening next year. And it's like, okay.

• 9:10Speaker 03

  Might be happening. There's a lot that needs to happen for this to happen, but yeah.

• 9:15Speaker 02

  But some of the things that apparently happened-ish in the movie business, it's Halle Berry, Zoe Kravitz, Colin Firth, so like, not too shabby, right?

• 9:24Speaker 03

  Bananas, and Jack Whitehall.

• 9:26Speaker 02

  Right.

• 9:26Speaker 03

  Amazing comedian. So crazy.

• 9:28Speaker 02

  Yeah. No big deal. Just kind of a movie dream team of award-winning actors.

• 9:33Speaker 03

  It's a mix of things, but mostly, it just feels surreal. That's, I know that's so cliche, but that's the only word I can come up with. After everything that's happened, it's just weird to see that in print.

• 9:41Speaker 02

  But it's been freaking years. And you give me little updates about the script for, I don't know, as long as I can remember? Like, a decade or something here and there?

• 9:48Speaker 03

  No, no, no. This is a later one. You're thinking of the other one, yeah, which is the reason this is happening, which we can talk about. But yeah, I know what you're talking about. This one is like, five, six years ago.

• 9:58Speaker 02

  Oh, only. Okay, so half a decade. To go and change, but you didn't mention it for a while. So I don't know. I just kind of assumed it does what most movies do, which is like sit in a

• 10:07Speaker 03

  Go nowhere.

• 10:07Speaker 02

  Shelf and go nowhere. Yeah.

• 10:09Speaker 03

  Yeah. Well, given what happened in 2020, I learned not to get too attached to these things. You just never know. Like I said, I still don't know. Nothing is real until you're on set.

• 10:18Speaker 02

  Even then someone, I don't know, could die or the studio just runs out of money or a global pandemic happens and filming never starts.

• 10:24Speaker 03

  Thank you for bringing that up.

• 10:25Speaker 02

  You're welcome.

• 10:26Speaker 03

  Yes. So this news was exciting, but I'm also like, okay. You know, like we had to get to this point and it's a huge point, but there's still a long road ahead and nothing is guaranteed. So we'll see. That's the stance I'm taking. Cool. And we'll see.

• 10:39Speaker 02

  Okay. I suppose that's the only way to be part of the circus and not go insane.

• 10:43Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think so. It's new for me though. A few years ago, you remember it was just like a constant roller coaster, up, down, up, down. Great news. Cool. This person's interested. It's all worth it. Bad news. They've changed their mind. This person won't read. What's even the point? Why am I doing this? And yeah, I have a very different lens on it now. And I have to say, doing feedback Friday has been a huge part of that for me, just being able to be part of this thing. That is intimate and immediate and hours, you know, it's not like depending on all these people to give us permission or money or time or anything. And getting to talk about problems and questions that are real has saved me.

• 11:18Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, you mentioned that and that makes me happy. I imagine travel has also helped.

• 11:22Speaker 03

  Massively.

• 11:23Speaker 02

  Really puts things into perspective, I suppose.

• 11:25Speaker 03

  I'd say with travel, the canvas got a lot bigger and my relationship with the industry changed a lot for a lot of reasons, but one of them was not just living in LA and being so attached to it. But you know, things falling apart and having my heart broken many times. That's kind of the reason this movie happen is happening. So that's interesting.

• 11:42Speaker 02

  I think I know what you mean. I think a lot of people don't really know what went down and most people are probably, if they even heard in the first place have forgotten by now.

• 11:48Speaker 03

  So, okay, this is a, this is a long and very weird story. I'm going to compress it. March 2020, a script I wrote called Give or Take went into production. That's the one you were just thinking of, Jordan.

• 11:58Speaker 02

  Right.

• 11:58Speaker 03

  Huge actor in the leader role, big budget, my first movie that was going to get made. And then this thing called COVID happens and literally 24 hours before I'm supposed to fly to Montreal to join the team and start prep, the studio says, really sorry, but we have to shut the movie down.

• 12:13Speaker 02

  Oh, that's, I know. That's so, it's like a death in the family.

• 12:17Speaker 03

  It was a massive blow, but honestly, I don't remember being super worked up about it at the time because it was completely out of our hands. No one did this to us. It was just this huge thing. Everybody was dealing with it. So there was nothing to do. But I also thought like, oh, it's fine. This is only going to last a couple of months, you know, tops. The, the news always overplays these things. This is just, remember bird flu? No one cares about bird flu. Like this is fine.

• 12:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:40Speaker 03

  We'll be back in prep by the summer is kind of what I thought, which yeah, not true at all.

• 12:44Speaker 02

  Man, I don't remember that part of the story that COVID played a role. I guess I, well, I wish I'd known that before I interviewed Dr. Fauci could have.

• 12:50Speaker 03

  That would have been nice. There are a few things I would have loved for you to ask him.

• 12:53Speaker 02

  Do you know what you did to my friend's career?

• 12:54Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly. What, what do you hate romantic comedies? You hate Joy Fauci? Anyway, a couple of months later, the actor drops out of the project. And then the studio lets the project go and it basically dies for several years. It's still kind of somewhere in between life and death. Unclear.

• 13:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. This part I remember. So this is like a career making thing because of the people that were attached to it, which we like can't mention, I guess. And then she bounced and ruined your life.

• 13:19Speaker 03

  Yes and no, because right around that time you asked me if I wanted to come be your producer on Feedback Friday.

• 13:23Speaker 02

  Right. I was like, oh, this pathetic character. I really need to do something for him. Yeah. No, I, I got you in the depths of your despair. Very deliberate on my part. I was like, you know what's going to be really cheap? Somebody who is desperate. Purposeless.

• 13:37Speaker 03

  Do I know any screenwriters in Hollywood right now? Well played, dude. You bought, you bought at the bottom of the market. That's how I put it.

• 13:44Speaker 02

  That's right. It's like crypto. It's called psychology. It's called strategy. Should try it out sometime.

• 13:48Speaker 03

  I accepted gratefully because honestly I needed a job, uh, now that I wasn't going to be a successful screenwriter. And I also thought it would be cool to learn about podcasting.

• 13:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's where all the money is.

• 13:58Speaker 03

  That's it clearly. Honestly, for me, it probably what that was more true.

• 14:02Speaker 02

  Well, yeah.

• 14:03Speaker 03

  But I had, I just had no idea it would blossom into this amazing thing. But that's how that started.

• 14:08Speaker 02

  Isn't that wild? It's so funny. And by the way, I'm kidding. Podcasting is the worst way to make money statistic. You are, you actually are more likely to become a famous something in Hollywood that you are to have a good podcast. Now I have run the numbers. It's act, that's actually true.

• 14:21Speaker 03

  We should look at them together one day because I have, I don't know if that's still true in this environment.

• 14:26Speaker 02

  It might not still be true, but basically there's way more people starting podcasts. And there's way less of them actually making enough money to break even versus people making money in the movie industry. And I don't mean famous actors though. I mean, I, I guess you'd have to count like somebody who does prop and set design is actually making a living doing it, you know, it's, it's going to be somebody like that. You have to throw those numbers in there. Um, I had AI do this. So it was the laziest calculation ever.

• 14:51Speaker 03

  Okay. And it was, did it say to you, this is getting a little sweaty. This is a little un-PC.

• 14:57Speaker 02

  Yeah. Like, well, you should really, some people don't care about money, Jordan. You should count their joy as being successful. And I was like, look, chat. No, I want people who can pay their rent. Thanks. Anyway.

• 15:09Speaker 03

  Anyway, a month or two after that, in the middle of the lockdown, my, my friend and my collaborator Suzanne, the person I developed Give or Take with the other movie, I texted her one day, like, I just can't, I cannot sit around being mad at she who must not be named and bored out of my mind. I want to do something like, let's make good use of this time.

• 15:26Speaker 02

  As you put out a cigarette and do a headshot of her on the wall.

• 15:29Speaker 03

  Yeah. While I hurl kombucha bottles at the TV playing her Estee Lauder commercial. Exactly. So I had this idea for romantic comedy. Basically the idea was what would happen if a young couple got engaged and then the guy's dad, who's this disgraced like white collar criminal, you know, like a small time Bernie Madoff, but funny. That guy gets out of prison early and shows up out of the blue and he has nowhere to stay. So he has to crash with them. And then the father meets the girl's mother and they hit it off and then they start dating. And so basically the parents' relationship creates all these problems for the kids and basically turns their dream wedding into a nightmare.

• 16:05Speaker 02

  Wow. Okay. Well, solid idea. I can see it.

• 16:08Speaker 03

  I'm glad. That's rather the idea. So we got to work, went through many, many versions of the movie, just countless drafts. And we kept working on it up until a few months ago, really. And yeah, here we are. The other great thing that came out of the pandemic and this movie start crushing my dream was I wouldn't have made my short film if that hadn't happened because I was waiting for years and years on other people to make one of my movies. So I could just finally have that experience of like producing something and I would learn from them. And then the horizon just kept receding in front of me like and would not happen. So I realized that other project was going to take a while to get made, if it ever got made. And I just got to the point where I was like, fuck this. I'm doing it myself. I've written something cool that I care about. I'm going to put my own money into this.

• 16:50Speaker 03

  I'm going to ask for help and put together a team and I'm going to give myself this production experience that I've been waiting for other people to give me. And that was one of the best things I've ever done. Kind of changed my whole lens on filmmaking and storytelling and how to run a team and really on life in general, I would say.

• 17:05Speaker 02

  I love that. Yeah. This is, well, something I learned early on. You can't sit around waiting for people to do stuff for you. You just got to do it. Charlamagne the God kind of calls this putting yourself on because you know, he was a radio DJ. So people would send him their tracks and he'd be, put me on, put me on. And he's like, you gotta put yourself on in life.

• 17:21Speaker 03

  Oh, you gotta put yourself on. Damn. That slaps. Yeah. You know what that reminds me of?

• 17:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:26Speaker 03

  There's this great screenwriter named Terry Rossio. He was one of the writers on Aladdin and the first Pirates of the Caribbean, among many other movies. And he wrote this essay I love called Never Wait. Which is basically this exhortation to break the poisonous habit of waiting in life.

• 17:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's a hard one to rewrite.

• 17:44Speaker 03

  I think it's the Charlamagne idea, but yeah, his whole thing is like, never wait in the small picture. He gives this example of being stuck on hold on the phone. Like you call your bank and they put you on hold. And he's like, don't just sit there. Make a list of 10 people you haven't spoken to in a long time and you'll be annoyed when the customer service rep finally picks up because they interrupted you while you were doing this. You weren't waiting. You were doing something.

• 18:05Speaker 02

  Bro's been practicing six minute networking since I was seeing Disney movies in my living room.

• 18:09Speaker 03

  That's right. Literally. Yeah.

• 18:10Speaker 02

  Sixminutenetworking.com. Just saying, if the guy who invented Captain Jack Sparrow believes in it, it works.

• 18:16Speaker 03

  Just shamelessly piggybacking on this guy you don't know's wisdom. I love it.

• 18:19Speaker 02

  Coattails riding, baby. To push a hundred percent free course that requires no credit card. Yes. Hey, Hollywood's got to work for somebody. Might as well be me.

• 18:25Speaker 03

  But he also means this in the big picture, waiting on people's approval, waiting on their permission, waiting to be in the right mood for something, perfect conditions. In the essay, he calls waiting a tiny little bundle of death.

• 18:37Speaker 02

  Tiny little bundle of death. That hits. That sounds like one of those Buddhist things. It's like, isn't that what the French call an orgasm? This is so often, we're going to have to edit this out of Emmeral.

• 18:46Speaker 03

  Very different. You're thinking of la petit mort?

• 18:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, the little death.

• 18:49Speaker 03

  The little death. Yeah.

• 18:49Speaker 02

  Okay. I'm not that far off. Tiny bundle of death.

• 18:52Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 18:52Speaker 02

  Little death. Come on.

• 18:54Speaker 03

  French orgasms and waiting for Hollywood to give you a shot are very closely related.

• 19:00Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yes.

• 19:02Speaker 03

  But this is how I was in a lot of ways for a very long time. I was just waiting and a lot of screenwriters are like that because you're so disempowered by the system and you're lost and you're at the whim of these absurd forces, whether it's whether a movie star wants to stick around or an executive wants to take a chance on your script or whatever the market, it was just terrible. And so I read that essay and this whole giving up waiting as a state of mind thing planted a seed in me. It also kind of chimed with a lot of books I was reading at the time, spiritual texts like Charlotte Beck, Abraham ibn Ezra, Eckhart Tolle. But it took me a while to really put it into practice, especially in my career.

• 19:40Speaker 02

  So I completely agree with this. That's kind of how I am too. Just keep plowing ahead, whatever happens around me. Steal little moments here and there to respond to texts or knock out some show prep, whatever I've got to do. It's amazing what you can get done when you do that. But I like the larger concept a lot, which is never wait in the cosmic sense either, man.

• 19:58Speaker 03

  No, it's so true. I just. On the essay, by the way, there's the section I had highlighted the last time I read it. He writes, "Life is short. You think you know it, but you don't act like you know it. And since you don't act like you know it, it means you in fact don't know it. Because if you did know it, you would go ahead and act like you knew it."

• 20:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know what's funny? I think about this kind of stuff all the time. So first of all, facts, this guy's not messing around, but that's so correct. Like, life is short. Oh, yeah, no, I know. I live that. Do you? Because you are spending a lot of time playing Candy Crush or, you know, ignoring your family or whatever. So especially when you have little kids, people are like, "It goes by fast. Don't mess this up." And you're just like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, but I really gotta do this thing." And like, that's why, this is a tangent, but like, that's why I'm not writing a book right now. And my agent hates me for it because she's like, "No, no, no, we can have a ghostwriter do this and it's minimal time." And then I talk to people like Mark Manson and Ryan Holiday and they're like, "No, they're lying to you. They just want you to make the money."

• 20:52Speaker 03

  This is a really big, big project. Yeah. So how much life do you want to give up for that?

• 20:56Speaker 02

  Right. And I'm like, zero life because I already don't have enough Lego time with my kids. I already don't have enough swing my daughter around in the living room time. And like, the idea of spending it on Zoom calls with ghostwriters and even, even if you and I write it, no offense, but the idea of spending Lego time on a Zoom call with you while you're like yawning because you're in a different time zone? No, thank you. This shit can wait. So maybe I do know it a little and I act like I know it a little, but yeah, you're right. Nobody knows it knows it until they're like 80 and they go, "Where did the time go? I blinked and I was 80. Ah." And then you're like, "Oh, God, don't blink." Anyway, the guy's not messing around.

• 21:34Speaker 03

  Never wait. Yeah. I guess all that to say, that's what we were doing by writing that script after being stuck at home and getting our hearts broken, which is like, we're not gonna wait.

• 21:41Speaker 02

  So that movie star who dropped out, she's basically your guru. She set you up for this massive fall and she's like, "You're welcome."

• 21:47Speaker 03

  I think so, in a way.

• 21:48Speaker 02

  Now you don't need to go to some dumbass silent meditation retreats.

• 21:53Speaker 02

  Saved you four days and a lot of boredom. You're welcome.

• 21:56Speaker 03

  I love that, but you're not wrong. I mean, it's funny now, okay. There was a time when I was like, very frustrated and upset at this person I don't even know. But now I can't help but kind of love her. I mean, it's complicated, obviously, but she ruined so many people's lives by deciding to drop out of this project. And I would not have it any other way now. And it's not just because of the article. I've been feeling this way for the last couple of years. In fact, it's a little scary to think about what would have happened if that movie had gone forward and I didn't have another piece of material under my belt, some experience directing, Feedback Friday, travel, all these things. It actually, in a weird way, might have been the worst outcome.

• 22:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, you could have been rich and famous by now. That would have been terrible.

• 22:37Speaker 03

  Terrible. Awful. I wouldn't have to be sitting or talking about it.

• 22:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, in a youth hostel in Spain.

• 22:42Speaker 03

  It's what I, yeah, I know. Isn't that incredible that I'd rather have that than have that movie?

• 22:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, that is incredible. And a lot of people are like, "Nice copium. What flavor is that?" But I've talked about my business breakup a ton and I'm like, "No." People are like, "It's gonna be the best thing that's ever happened to you." And I wanted to punch them in the face. Now I'm like, "No, no, no, you were right. Now I wish it happened earlier. I wish it happened five years before, but then I wouldn't have paid attention, right? I had to be at the end of my dang rope and then had it happen. I needed to be fully backed into a corner in order to lash out and have the energy to do what I needed to do.

• 23:14Speaker 03

  Totally.

• 23:15Speaker 02

  That's really what it was.

• 23:15Speaker 03

  That's exactly right. You're bringing up such an interesting question. Is meaning-making and appreciation just another coping strategy? Maybe you could say that, but it feels categorically different. Like, I don't think you're coping with the loss by saying, "Well, it's really great because I started my own business." You're like, "No, no, no, this is really the better path, but I had to go through all of that." That perspective is real. It's not just a way of like feeling okay about difficult facts. That's how I feel. So much so, in fact, that in the special thanks, in the credits of my short, I mention all these people, right? My friends, family, people who helped make the movie happen. And then I was like, "Yo, I gotta put Shiyu must not be named in the special thanks. I have to do it because without her, this wouldn't have happened."

• 23:56Speaker 03

  So in the credits of my movie, it's like, my sister, my colleagues who gave me notes. You know who's in our special thanks? Our friend TD, our, the police officer who consulted on the script for me because he, he helped with some of the cop stuff. And then it's like, one of the most famous people on the planet.

• 24:10Speaker 02

  They're like, people are gonna be like, "Not that one, though. That must be a different person with the same name." "Oh, making dinner reservations for her must be so funny." No, but does she know about this?

• 24:20Speaker 03

  I doubt it.

• 24:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, she gets an IMDb alert, like, "What is this movie? I'm not in this movie." Delete. "Oh, I could have been in it, but I blew it."

• 24:27Speaker 03

  No, but this is my short film, you understand, not the movie that she dropped out of.

• 24:31Speaker 02

  Who cares? She's gonna be upset.

• 24:32Speaker 03

  She is in the movie, though. You're in every frame, girl, if you're listening to this, which you're not. Thank you for ruining my life.

• 24:38Speaker 02

  Maybe she listens to this podcast. Who knows?

• 24:40Speaker 03

  That would be incredible.

• 24:42Speaker 02

  I figure plenty of A-list celebrities are super bored and have nothing to do.

• 24:45Speaker 03

  She's in her Malibu beach house, it sinks into the ground, like, "Yeah, he really does need to talk to his mother-in-law."

• 24:50Speaker 02

  It's these two pedestrian idiots that really keep my life on track.

• 24:54Speaker 03

  She doesn't even realize that I'm the guy who wrote the movie.

• 24:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, I really do feel this way. I'm thankful to her for ruining my life as it was then, so I could invent a better one.

• 25:03Speaker 02

  Yep. Everything falls apart. You end up doing all these other things, including the show, dot, dot, dot. Now this movie's finally happening.

• 25:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, like I said, it's a big step, getting the cast. There's still a long road ahead. The sales company is taking it out to buyers now, so we'll see what the response is. I don't really know and I'm not involved in that part, but then you still have to set it up and there will be more development on the script and casting conversations and budget conversations and all the production stuff. So I'm not just saying this, like, I really am not getting ahead of myself because I've seen this movie before. I'm prepared for anything.

• 25:34Speaker 02

  I hear that. I suppose that's wise.

• 25:36Speaker 03

  If it happens, it'll be amazing. And if it doesn't happen, I'll be okay.

• 25:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's funny because I remember when your whole mood and your whole identity depended on this happening and it's kind of wild to see you take this stance now, like, meh, okay.

• 25:48Speaker 03

  It was funny for me as well to get the news in Barcelona, which was the last place I expected to see an article about something I wrote come out and be like, "Oh, cool." This is exciting in the sense that it's really cool to see these amazing artists come on board, but it's, I'm not like losing my shit, reconsidering everything, like, "Okay, done with the nomading. Better move back to LA." Like, no, I much prefer it this way. Also, I know I keep saying this, but I really, it's like, I love Feedback Friday. Like, I love what we get to do here and I love traveling and that helps put the industry stuff in the right place in my mind.

• 26:19Speaker 02

  It's wild how that happens and it's also a great Feedback Friday theme, I think. I'm trying to figure out what lessons to take away from this story. There are a few in there.

• 26:28Speaker 03

  Well, never wait, I think is one of them.

• 26:30Speaker 02

  There's never wait. There's the worst thing that can happen to you can easily become the best thing.

• 26:34Speaker 03

  Often does, I think. I believe that wholeheartedly.

• 26:37Speaker 02

  But then if you hadn't done stuff, written another script, directed a short, jumped into Feedback Friday, these things wouldn't have happened. So it's not just about acceptance and surrender and letting go. It's about what you do after those setbacks and what you do with them.

• 26:50Speaker 03

  For sure. No, you're right. Which again, is, I guess that's another version of never wait.

• 26:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, never flipping wait. Amen. All right.

• 26:56Speaker 03

  I also have to say, I do hesitate to like gloat about this and draw all these big life lessons because like I said, truly have no idea where this is going. Anything could happen, et cetera, et cetera. Also, there's a huge element of luck in all of this, huge. So I don't think it's as simple as, well, if you just do these things, one day you will be successful because this could have easily gone a different way for me and still could.

• 27:16Speaker 02

  I hear that and I appreciate that, but still, that luck could not have kicked in without the work. So there's, there's that.

• 27:21Speaker 03

  That's true. That I definitely agree with.

• 27:23Speaker 02

  I've shared this before, hard work, consistent work. It just increases your surface area for good things to happen, for luck to play a bigger role.

• 27:31Speaker 03

  Yes, well put.

• 27:32Speaker 02

  There's like an ancient Greek quote, right? It's something, "Fortune favors the prepared." I mean, that's that whole concept. Maybe that's the real takeaway. There's no substitute for the work. I know it's far from a done deal, but there's something to be said for celebrating the wins as they come. And this is a win, man. Congrats.

• 27:46Speaker 03

  Thank you. Thanks, man.

• 27:48Speaker 02

  I know you're all jaded now, Hollywood jaded, maybe not entirely in a bad way. So I get why you're not getting ahead of yourself, but man, seeing a script you wrote move forward at the level where they're actually making a movie with A-list celebrities, it's a big accomplishment. Congrats to you and Suzanne.

• 28:00Speaker 03

  Thank you, dude. That's very sweet. So we start the show? Kick off with an actual nightmare that is actually happening to somebody who actually exists?

• 28:08Speaker 02

  You know what else you should never wait for? The deals and discounts on the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back.

• 28:19Speaker 00

  At Lowe's, this Veterans Day and every day, military members, veterans and their spouses get automatic MyLowe's Rewards Silver Status Benefits. Plus, 10% off eligible purchases with no annual limit. It's one way we honor and give back to those who have served and still do. Learn more and verify now at Lowe's.com/military. 10% discount can't be combined with another offer. Exclusions, terms and conditions apply. Loyalty program subject to terms and conditions. Details at Lowe's.com/terms. Subject to change.

• 28:47Speaker 02

  All right, back to the show.

• 28:51Speaker 02

  Fun ones, doozies, let's dive in. Gabe, what is the first thing out of the mailbag?

• 28:55Speaker 03

  Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I recently met a guy through a mutual friend of ours who was the chief of police's wife. I trusted them and they set me and this guy up after a charity event that we attended. He works for a judge in Stockton, California. Sometime later, he invited me on a trip to Italy. I was between jobs, so it worked out nicely. Before the trip, he asked me my budget. I said $3,000, thinking that was plenty for a romantic getaway. He said he'd plan everything and we'd quote unquote, "figure it out later." In hindsight, that phrase should have been my red flag, but I was too busy packing cute outfits and imagining us kissing under the Tuscan sun. Meanwhile, he booked everything. The trip was magical.

• 29:37Speaker 03

  Gelato, sunsets, cobblestone streets. I thought I was in a rom-com that Gabe wrote and never got made. But I added that. But when we got home, instead of a sweet "had a great time" text, he sent me an official invoice from his company for $21,000. Turns out, I was actually in a financial horror film.

• 29:59Speaker 02

  Wait, this is so insane. What a weirdo.

• 30:02Speaker 03

  Bananas.

• 30:03Speaker 02

  I know we're about to get into all this. I'm just blown away again by how bizarre and brazen and frankly, batshit crazy this move is. Like, oh, yeah, the date was fun. Here's your invoice. Like, what happened on this trip?

• 30:15Speaker 03

  I thought it was a typo. I thought maybe he added an extra zero by accident. I thought maybe he meant lira. But no, he meant $21,000 American dollars for a trip to which I told him I could contribute three. I stared at the invoice dumbfounded. It states meals, hotel stays, car rental, and shopping.

• 30:36Speaker 02

  Bro kept receipts. So this was planned. Wow.

• 30:39Speaker 03

  So he billed her for the Peugeot they rented to visit a vineyard and he also billed them for like candlelit dinners in Rome. That is terrible.

• 30:46Speaker 02

  Dude probably billed her for the seven Pellegrinos they bought at a bodega too. What a lowlife this guy is.

• 30:51Speaker 03

  I genuinely believed I was dating this man. Not talking, not vibing, not maybe. No. This man was pursuing me like he was trying to win a trophy. There was never any documentation before the trip. No contract, invoice, estimate, reimbursement agreement, or other document. I didn't sign or verbally agree to anything. He made me believe that this was a personal trip, and I never agreed to any of the additional expenses. These conversations took place over Apple messages and WhatsApp, but he later deleted them. Well, that's sus as hell. Okay?

• 31:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:25Speaker 03

  And there is no business relationship between me and his company. So I disputed the invoice in writing via email, but he was out of town and we never spoke after that. I tried to pay what I could, but unless I suddenly became a Kardashian, there was no universe where I could casually drop $21,000 on a vacation I didn't even know I was being billed for. I paid him $7,000 because I felt obligated to pay since I did some shopping. And I told him that I would pay him back $5,000 once I received my commission check.

• 31:57Speaker 02

  Oh, no. Okay. I want to get clear on this. So she disputes the invoice by email. They never spoke afterward, but then she did pay him seven and then told him she'd pay another five.

• 32:06Speaker 03

  Correct.

• 32:06Speaker 02

  Because in her mind, she did some shopping, but I'm guessing it wasn't 12 grand worth of shopping. I guess I shouldn't assume that, but I'm guessing it's like 500, $2,000 max, given her budget. This is really unfortunate. Oof.

• 32:18Speaker 03

  Yeah. But then, because apparently this man loves drama, he sued me in small claims court in San Joaquin County, California. After subtracting my payments, the remaining balance fell under the $12,500 limit for small claims court. I appeared and defended myself. I put together a book of evidence, but the judge never saw it. The guy I thought I was dating won. Now he has a lien on my property. A lien from a romantic trip.

• 32:45Speaker 02

  Oh my God. Infuriating. My God.

• 32:48Speaker 03

  How did this happen?

• 32:50Speaker 02

  How did a judge hear this story and not look at her documentation that clearly shows there was zero contract, written or oral, and rule in his favor? I mean, I'm getting, I have some ideas, but I do wonder if paying him what she paid him in the judge's eyes basically established that they had a contract and she owed him the money. That's the only thing I can think of. Like, you basically acknowledge the debt when you do that.

• 33:10Speaker 03

  I appealed the decision and lost. He had an attorney present.

• 33:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's the problem with going pro se, no attorney. A lot of times you don't have a choice in small claims court, but if you have a choice, you'd need to, you can't bring a knife to a gunfight.

• 33:23Speaker 03

  But he had an attorney present, so it was one of those states where you can do that.

• 33:26Speaker 02

  Yeah. And she was like, well, I can't, I don't want to do that, or I can't afford one, but now you have a lien on your property and you have to pay. So it's really, legal advice is expensive, but not having it is way more expensive.

• 33:37Speaker 03

  The deadline to appeal or otherwise challenge the judgment has passed. I'm talking to an attorney soon to see what next steps to take. At this point, I'm considering suing him for fraud and misrepresentation because I'm pretty sure romantic vacation should not secretly mean surprise business transaction with a side of property seizure. What is the psychology behind this? Is this the kind of case where pursuing legal action makes sense? Or should I just accept that I accidentally went on the most expensive date in modern history? Signed, feeling like a sap and wondering whether to clap back after this manipulative scab straight up stuck me with the tab.

• 34:15Speaker 02

  This is awful and gross and quite baffling, honestly. Before we dive into this, Gabe, I have so many questions about this.

• 34:21Speaker 03

  Same. Let's get into it.

• 34:23Speaker 02

  Is this guy a straight up professional scammer? And this is just what he does. He invites women on fancy vacations and then sticks them with the bill? Or did he actually want to take her on this trip and then something weird happened that she either isn't telling us or isn't maybe more likely, is not aware of? Like he didn't end up liking her or that, but or something happened on the, did she reject him super hard or his feelings changed? Not that that excuses any of this, but then when they got home, he's just like, oh, I don't want to have to pay for that. I'm gonna make her pay. I'm super mad about it. My ego hurts. I don't know. What's going on here?

• 34:52Speaker 03

  Somehow that feels more probable to me, but that is still so despicable and weird. Just, it's different from an intentional scam from the start, but still bizarre.

• 35:02Speaker 02

  Agree. Cause what I don't understand is if this was a scam from the jump, it's an incredibly crappy, inefficient scam.

• 35:09Speaker 03

  Totally.

• 35:09Speaker 02

  You've got to fly to another country. You've got to spend all this money on yourself. You've got to burn potentially a relationship you have back in California because now the police chief and his wife are going to hear about it. They're probably not going to want to introduce you to anybody again. They're going to be like, well, there's two sides to every story, but wow, that's pretty bad. And then you spend all this money on yourself and then you try to collect it later and most people are going to be like, no way. And then you've got to sue them and then you've got to win and then you've got to get a lien and then you have to wait for your money. I mean, you might have to wait, you're going to have to wait months or years to see that money. And then having to do this to multiple women when you have a normal job? Okay. So then you don't have a normal job and you just go on vacation. All that. I mean, not, it just does not make sense. I'm trying to imagine all the scenarios here. It's like such a crap scam. It's terrible.

• 35:53Speaker 03

  If he's not a professional romance scammer, that would help explain why he's friends with the chief of police and his wife and attends charity events and stuff. Like, he's not a total scumbag, maybe? I don't know.

• 36:03Speaker 02

  Well, or he's really good at being a con man, but then the con itself is not lucrative and totally sucks. So I don't know about that either, right? So that's interesting. I think the first lesson to appreciate there is that trust transferred through a respected person is borrowed trust, but it is not the same thing as evidence.

• 36:23Speaker 03

  Meaning just because this guy is friends with the chief of police doesn't make him a good person or a trustworthy person.

• 36:28Speaker 02

  No. In fact, shady people do this all the time. Oh, I'm friends with the mayor. I sit on the board of this charity. I post photos on Instagram with the chief of police. Cool. That's a fig leaf. It gives them social currency. I mean, wasn't that basically Jeffrey Epstein's playbook? He was on charities. He donated. He hung out with all these people. How could this guy possibly be doing all this evil stuff if he's friends with all these amazing people? Now we're like, oh, the billionaires are gross too. In the end, it means very little, perhaps nothing, other than the person's ability to politic and move in certain circles and donate money or something. I don't know.

• 36:59Speaker 03

  So true. It's a great point, which sadly, people like this can do extremely well.

• 37:03Speaker 02

  Yeah. It's just important to remember. You gotta do your own research. I hate that phrase, but you gotta know people on your own. Even the chief of police can make a mistake or just be in the dark. I mean, yeah, I met him through my wife and he donated to her cause and he seemed nice. The end, right? That's all the vetting they did for this guy, probably.

• 37:17Speaker 03

  There's a third possibility, which is that he's not a professional romance scammer, but he did plan to do this the whole time.

• 37:22Speaker 02

  It's true. I mean, it's just a weird thing to want to do one time, but I guess it's possible for a person like this to conceive of that idea. Some combination of antisocial tendencies and narcissism and entitlement and a failure to empathize with other people. And I have to assume a fundamental inability to relate normally to other people and feel you're deserving of real relationships and real experiences. Or just the naked self-interest of a criminal or shady person. That's got to be the psychology behind this.

• 37:50Speaker 03

  I mean, at some point, it's kind of a mystery, isn't it? Like, how do you reduce the psychology of something like this? Something this bizarre? I don't know.

• 37:57Speaker 02

  I'm sure something awful happened to this guy when he was a kid, or he was just born weird and his brain is broken. I don't know. Reduced gray matter in the prefrontal cortex or wherever that psychopathy, antisocial, whatever stuff resides.

• 38:10Speaker 03

  Yeah. Famously the best predictor of whether you're going to stick a woman you met at a gala with all of your Ryanair flights. That's what I mean.

• 38:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's science. It's neuroscience. And you know, he upgraded them to enhanced economy or whatever Ryanair calls the premium tier.

• 38:22Speaker 03

  Flexi plus, actually.

• 38:24Speaker 02

  The only thing flexy about Ryanair is whether your plane's going to land on time.

• 38:27Speaker 03

  Weather will land at all, really. It's all up in the air, literally.

• 38:30Speaker 02

  It's a coin toss with Ryanair. You save 70 euros, but you might not make it to whatever the second tier airport in Prague is called.

• 38:36Speaker 03

  That's right. That's their model. I just flew them from Barcelona to Bergamo and it was, it was actually fine, but it does kind of redefine bare bones. It's not easy.

• 38:44Speaker 02

  I feel like Ryanair is a great deal if you travel with only like a middle schooler backpack. You don't care if the plane's delayed and you don't mind sitting in a middle seat with no beverage service. It's kind of like, well, it's faster than the train.

• 38:55Speaker 03

  That's right. And you don't mind paying to use the bathroom or you're just like, oh, I'll hold it. I can wait.

• 39:00Speaker 02

  Ryanair wanted to charge passengers to use the bathroom. Wasn't that them? They did the whole thing about that?

• 39:04Speaker 03

  I think it was just like an internal discussion of can we do this? But they never did it.

• 39:07Speaker 02

  I feel like that's just asking for terrible PR. You know, someone's going to crap themselves in the seat and be like, I didn't have a coin to go to the bathroom.

• 39:14Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 39:14Speaker 02

  It costs you more to implement the revenue stream than to just forego the money.

• 39:18Speaker 03

  Dude, the seats on Ryanair are the most uncomfortable seats I think I've ever sat in. It felt like I was being wheeled around on a dolly for two hours. That's how I can describe it.

• 39:27Speaker 02

  That's the business model exactly. You get what you pay for. I remember meeting Ryanair pilots in places like Odessa, Ukraine, where you're just like, hey, what are you doing? And they're like, we travel, we're pilots, we travel around the world. And then they're like, we work for Ryanair. And I remember being like, wow, that's such a good gig. But they were like 25, you know, like these are not guys that were going to get a job with American. They were getting their hours on Ryanair so they could get a job with like another national airline.

• 39:50Speaker 03

  Interesting. I will say though, it was the most streamlined check in and backdrop service I've ever had. I guess that's because it's automated and self-checking. But it was like, usually you have to stand there for a while and it's annoying. You have to get there. Like I was 10 minutes and I was at the security line. But also I was so tired when I got to the airport because it was six in the morning. I barely slept the night before. I kind of lost track of time in the lounge and suddenly I looked at my, the time and I was like, oh my God, I'm super late. Like I just got confused about the time. So I ran to the gate, but they had closed the door, which is like, oh, that feeling is so terrible. And I, the last time I missed a flight was probably like 12, 15 years ago. But they opened it for me. They called the plane. They're like, yeah, he's here. An extra heavy bag and underneath. So like, and I, they opened the door and I got on just

• 40:34Speaker 03

  in time, which was really cool of them. Not a lot of airlines would do that. So thank you, Ryanair.

• 40:38Speaker 02

  That is very true. Definitely a point in Ryanair's favor. I didn't even know they were allowed to do that.

• 40:42Speaker 03

  Me too. It wasn't the door of the plane itself. It was like the boarding gate.

• 40:46Speaker 02

  The jetway door?

• 40:47Speaker 03

  The jetway door.

• 40:47Speaker 02

  Okay. But Gabe, what are we even talking about? This guy probably flew our friend here business class on KLM being like, it's not my money, whatever.

• 40:54Speaker 03

  That's right. He's like, I'm going to invoice her for the champagne and warm towels. Not my problem.

• 40:58Speaker 02

  The dude does not strike me as a Ryanair. I really want to impress and woo her. By the way, you might want to bring your own pillow to sit on because the seat has no padding. Anyway, all that to say, I'm so very sorry this happened to you, my friend. Take that shot, everyone. We've taken a lot of letters over the years from victims of scams of all kinds. And I don't know, man, the feelings a scammer leaves you with, confusion and embarrassment, sadness and the impotent rage is often the worst part. More than the money, which is significant, especially in this case, being conned or just manipulated like this. God's gotta be a terrible feeling. It's so unsettling and hurtful. It's just so maddening.

• 41:30Speaker 03

  Yeah. And then you have to go to court and face this person for this amount of money on top of all that.

• 41:35Speaker 02

  And then lose?

• 41:36Speaker 03

  And then have to hire a lawyer to fight back. That's a low key nightmare.

• 41:39Speaker 02

  It is. When any normal person who gets asked to go on a romantic trip to Italy would just go, yeah, yeah, sure. Sounds great. Well, yeah. Google spreadsheet. Fine. I'll Venmo you at the airport later, whatever.

• 41:47Speaker 03

  That's what I was thinking. This is what I would do. I could have easily been in our friend here shoes. I would never in a million years see a scam like this coming.

• 41:54Speaker 02

  No, same. And I mean, as a man, no woman has ever invited me on a vacation and put everything out of her card. But if she did for some reason, and that invitation is open, well, actually Jen might not appreciate that. And I, look, if I assumed we were dating, no part of me would be like, oh, I better get this in. I better screenshot those conversations we've been having. She might drag me to small claims court in a few months if I don't put out. I just hate that you're going through all this and I'm very sorry. Based on the facts, it's possible that you're out of moves here and you just need to pay this a-hole and move on. But given what he's pulled, if I were in your shoes, I think I would have to hit back at this guy however I could. I just don't see how you could take this lying down. Let a financial predator get away with something like this. The idea of sending him another 12 grand makes my blood boil. He should be happy he got seven grand out

• 42:39Speaker 02

  of you. But now, and I don't know exactly what legal options are available to you at this point. That's a question for the attorney you meet with. Maybe you sue him. That's a civil matter. Maybe you do file a police report to make it a criminal matter or attempt to, maybe both. Or maybe the lawyer's going to tell you, yeah, procedurally you're out of moves. You missed the window. You let this deadline lapse. I'm sorry. This is mostly over. The thing is, I hear a few potential crimes in all this, depending on the full facts, of course. And a good lawyer would have to prove these things. There's fraud and or theft, depending on whether this guy obtained your property, including money, through deception, rather than merely obtaining a judgment against you. There's forgery or use of a false document. If of course, the invoice or supporting records are fabricated or altered or falsely authenticated and so on. But it sounds like he might actually have

• 43:23Speaker 02

  a company. So maybe that doesn't apply, but you know, you can't just have a company and make false documents either. There's perjury if he testified under oath in the small claims proceedings and knowingly made a materially false statement. Again, that one's hard to prove. Also kind of besides the point. Okay. So he spends a weekend in jail. You still owe him 21 grand? I mean, come on.

• 43:41Speaker 03

  Based on what you've shared, it sounds like your case mostly hinges on the $3,000 conversation and the messages that you exchanged about all of this and the invoice and then whatever representations he made in court. It sucks that he deleted the messages before you could screenshot them though, because I feel like that kind of hamstrings your case without that.

• 43:59Speaker 02

  Well, the fact that he did that obviously makes him way more sus. To me, there's no genuine misunderstanding if he deleted the messages. He did that deliberately to obfuscate your original agreement, but you can't have those messages admitted into evidence now.

• 44:13Speaker 03

  Other than like the string of deleted message, deleted message, deleted message, which I'm guessing you can't bring a lack of a message into evidence, can you?

• 44:21Speaker 02

  Well, it depends. I mean, you probably can, but it doesn't prove very much. It's circumstantial at best. He could have said anything in those messages and you could be like, yeah, these are the messages that he deleted and he admits that this is all like going to be a date and he's going to pay for everything. And it's like, well,

• 44:35Speaker 03

  No.

• 44:35Speaker 02

  No, we have to go based on the actions because that stuff's all gone. Did he delete them? It's suspicious. And then he goes, I deleted them because they were sexually explicit and it was embarrassing for me and I didn't like her anymore and I wanted to get rid of it. And the judge is like, well, okay, I'm just going to weigh these at zero. What she wants to prove is that they had an agreement, such as it was, and that agreement was very different from what he's claiming. But if those texts were the only documentation, I just don't know how you prove that.

• 44:58Speaker 03

  Yeah. I wonder if that's why the case did not go her way and the judge couldn't even look at the documentation.

• 45:03Speaker 02

  It must've played a big role. Yeah. In addition to the history of making payments. I mean, that's the big one is like, if somebody says you owe me this and you're like, I absolutely do not, but here's some money anyway. It's like, well, okay, then you obviously.

• 45:13Speaker 03

  Which one is it?

• 45:14Speaker 02

  Some level felt that you did. My advice, talk to your attorney first, get their take on whether you should go to the police if that would help a potential case in any way and go from there. And if you do go to the police, I would bring them that binder of evidence that you created and I would describe what happened succinctly, clearly, factually. Don't go in there like, yeah, my ex is a romance scammer. You need to arrest him. Dates, exact representations, the stated $3,000 budget, invoice, payments, company information, court records. That's what they're going to care about. Not this general story and not the romance scammer label. I would just be prepared for the cops to look at the invoice, partial payments to completed small claims proceedings and go, yeah, sorry, civil matter, nothing we can do here. But if they say that, you and your lawyer could respectfully push back, show them evidence you created, tell them which statutes you believe apply and

• 45:59Speaker 02

  hopefully get them to listen.

• 46:01Speaker 03

  There's an interesting wrinkle here, which is whether there's an attempted theft or fraud crime concerning the judgment itself.

• 46:07Speaker 02

  Okay. Tell me more. Say more.

• 46:08Speaker 03

  If the theory is that he deliberately fabricated a debt and then used judicial proceedings as the mechanism for obtaining money from her. I don't know. I do wonder if your lawyer could make that case, that that's fraudulent.

• 46:20Speaker 02

  I'm with you, but that's highly fact dependent, super hard to prove.

• 46:24Speaker 03

  Yeah. And I imagine a lot of work to really dig into this guy's whole strategy and do forensics on the invoice and the billing and make the look at his track record. If this has happened before, if that apply, it's a whole thing. I'm just throwing it out there.

• 46:35Speaker 02

  What still confuses me, why is his company the creditor in all this? And what legal basis did the company claim for invoicing somebody with whom it apparently had no previous business relationship?

• 46:45Speaker 03

  That's gotta be relevant to this case, but maybe that's also hard for them to prove. It's weird that the judge didn't look at all this and go, and why is your personal loan out corporation billing your supposed girlfriend for a personal trip? Like what? This doesn't make any sense.

• 47:00Speaker 02

  He's probably claiming, oh, my company does travel plans for tourism.

• 47:05Speaker 03

  But this guy who works for a judge in Stockton and then took his girlfriend to Italy? Like that doesn't.

• 47:10Speaker 02

  Good point. Oh, my side hustle company is I'm a tour guide in Italy. I mean, that's, it sounds more and more ridiculous, the more you sort of have to explain in a way, right? Oh, then you must have other clients. No, this is the first one. Oh, actually I had three more clients and they all went to small claims court saying that this is a bunch of bullshit. Right? Come on, man. Again, the most damaging fact is that she paid seven grand and then she said she would pay five more. I mean, the judge probably just took those payments as her acknowledging the underlying debt. That's what I would do, and I'm afraid that's going to be so hard to walk back. I hate to say this because I know you can't go back, but I really wish you'd had an attorney from the start. I know you probably do too. I wish you'd appealed when you had the window and not let it lapse. I'm sure you also wish that too. And it sounds like you try to do this yourself, which I admire in a way. It's just always so risky, even in small claims court.

• 47:54Speaker 02

  If I, I am, I'm an attorney. If I had the ability to get a lawyer for small claims and I knew the other party had one, I would absolutely get one myself. And I wouldn't even try to represent myself, even with a law degree. It just sounds like you either weren't aware of the deadline to appeal. Maybe you kind of slept on it. Now you're in a much worse position. So yes, obviously you do have to accept that you accidentally went on the most expensive date in modern history. That's non-negotiable. There's nothing you can do about that now. And actually, that's an important phase of this, accepting that fact completely and coming to terms with it.

• 48:24Speaker 03

  But that's different from completely giving up, right?

• 48:27Speaker 02

  Yes, I totally get why some people just pay these scammers and move on with their lives. It's so unpleasant. I might even consider doing it for that amount of money. And in your case, given the lien, you might kind of have to. He could theoretically initiate legal action or a court proceeding to compel a forced sale of your property. If the underlying debt remains unpaid. So you might have to pay him this money at this point to just avoid having to, what? Sell your house or something like that to pay this jerk back? But I also want this guy to get some comeuppance so bad. I want you to have the satisfaction of standing up to this guy and take some of your power back, fighting for some justice, exposing this weirdo. So if there's a path forward, maybe some extenuating circumstances because you can prove that there might be fraud at play. I would pursue it with your attorney.

• 49:12Speaker 03

  Jordan, I'm just wondering if he's done this to other people.

• 49:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:15Speaker 03

  I was thinking if he's ended up in lawsuits with people often, like if this is a regular strategy for him, that would show up on a standard consumer background check, right? I'm pretty sure small claims court filings and financial judgments are part of the public record. And those sites that charge you like 30, 40 bucks to pull somebody's history, they routinely scrape that data. Now, I don't know how much you care about this guy's history, but if he has like eight small claims lawsuits with women on his record, that might help your attorney make the case that this is his MO. And this is fraud, and it might give you some comfort to know that you were not the only one. I also wonder, and this is a little out there, but it's just an idea I'll throw out. These reports usually show the date of a case, the county where it was filed, the name of the court.

• 49:56Speaker 03

  And I believe the names of the plaintiff and the defendant, although that could differ from state to state. There are some laws like the Fair Credit Reporting Act that limit what information gets shown over what period of time. But if you can find those defendants' names, in other words, any other people he's done this to. What if you reached out to them? You find them on social media, you find their email address and you ask them some questions and ask them about their stories. And if you guys connect and you have similar experiences with him, I don't know. Could you get other people to file police reports too? And could that be the start of a criminal investigation? Just a thought, maybe it also helps with any more civil litigation as well.

• 50:32Speaker 02

  Dark Gabriel, I like it.

• 50:35Speaker 03

  It might also give her some support and validation, you know, as she makes sense of all this, which is the whole, the whole other part of her story.

• 50:41Speaker 02

  I'm sure it would. Victims banding together, obviously very powerful. You just have to be very careful that you don't all start defaming this guy, especially in writing. He scammed me, did he scam you? He's a scammer, let's tell everyone, let's put it on Facebook. And then somehow he finds out or he gets ahold of those records and he sues you for defamation on top of all this, which I mean, this guy sounds like he would love the chance to do that.

• 51:00Speaker 03

  I guess my final question for you is, did you see anything in this guy along the way that looking back now was kind of a red flag? I know you said the whole, we'll figure it out later was the red flag, but to me that is not really, that I would have missed that red flag. Cause there's nothing unusual about somebody you're dating saying, I'll just put on my card and we'll sort it out later. But is there anything, even a curious data point that now you see in a different light? Something he said or didn't say, a small reaction he had, an opinion that somebody else you, who knew him had or whatever. Maybe it's just a feeling that you didn't know to take seriously at the time. I just ask you this, not to blame you for what happened, obviously. I just think it's important to do the forensics on this stuff so you can make more sense of what happened. So you can appreciate the breadcrumbs that you maybe didn't realize were important at the time.

• 51:44Speaker 03

  And yeah, if you ever find yourself meeting somebody like this again, maybe you're more equipped. Although I highly doubt that this particular scam will ever happen again.

• 51:51Speaker 02

  And if it ever does, you know, now call an attorney immediately. Do not hand over any money, not one cent. But yeah, good question. As we talk about sometimes, that can also help with the healing, to know that some part of you did pick up on some signals you didn't understand at the time, or you didn't know to listen to. Again, very sorry this happened to you. This is so weird and it's awful and despicable and it just sucks. But whether you fight back or you just eat the cost, I'm sure you've learned a lot through all this and you have a wild story to tell now. I wish it never happened, but it sounds very revealing. Sending you a big hug and wishing you all the best. You know what's tastier than a $21,000 gelato? The delicious deals and discounts on the fine products and services that support this show. Bon appetito, y'all. We'll be right back.

• 52:37Speaker 02

  Thank you for listening and supporting the show. All of the deals, discounts and ways to support the podcast are searchable and clickable on the website at jordanharbinger.com/deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Now, back to Feedback Friday.

• 52:51Speaker 02

  Okay, next up.

• 52:53Speaker 03

  Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I'm the guy who wrote in a little while back. That was episode 1355 about my difficult marriage and the woman I recently met at a conference in Indiana with whom I'd been texting since.

• 53:04Speaker 02

  Ah, yes. So he and his wife, they'd grown apart over the years. They had two kids. He said their needs were very different at this point in the marriage and the other woman just kind of brought him back to life, right?

• 53:12Speaker 03

  That's right. And our advice was basically this new woman in Indiana is revealing some important stuff about you and what you really want. And if you don't want to be married anymore, that's a fairer choice. But things are going to get a lot messier if you have an actual full-blown affair with this woman before you make that decision. So maybe don't do that.

• 53:30Speaker 02

  Right. Like listen to the data, but don't pursue the person, at least until you get clear on some big stuff.

• 53:35Speaker 03

  Yes. So he goes on. I wanted to say a huge thank you for taking the time to answer my question. I've listened to the segment a few times now and hearing your take really helped me process things. It gave me a lot more to think about regarding my own actions and what I was really trying to ask you guys. I realized after hearing it that my original email definitely underplayed the reality of my marriage. It's tough to fit an entire decade into a short email, but I wanted to provide a little more context because things aren't exactly what they appeared to be. My wife struggles with traits consistent with borderline personality disorder, particularly with intense explosive anger. I spend every single day walking on eggshells around her just to keep the peace.

• 54:17Speaker 02

  Ooh, okay.

• 54:18Speaker 03

  She also has extreme OCD, which got significantly worse after COVID. It has made living together almost unbearable.

• 54:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, man, that's really unfortunate. I can't hold that one against her as much because, you know, I'm sure she hates it even more than you do, but I hear you. That's made things a lot more challenging.

• 54:34Speaker 03

  More importantly, it's really starting to impact our kids' mental health. I saw a few comments on the Reddit thread about my story, saying that I should have offered to do marriage counseling before looking elsewhere. For the record, I have offered and pushed for counseling multiple times. It has always met with total dismissiveness. A few times she explicitly told me, quote, "You should go get counseling so you can come back and be a better husband. I don't need it because there's nothing wrong with me," unquote.

• 55:01Speaker 02

  Okay, that detail definitely changes things for me. So she either can't or won't work on things and you want to, and that, well, that changes everything.

• 55:10Speaker 03

  It's a tough reality to face, but you simply cannot help someone who doesn't want to be helped. Regarding the woman from Indiana, you guys made some very fair points. But even if this relationship is an escape hatch for me, connecting with her genuinely woke me up to what I actually want in a relationship. It put things into perspective and reminded me of what a healthy, peaceful dynamic is supposed to feel like after years of chaos.

• 55:35Speaker 02

  Totally get that. And I think we said as much, I think we were just saying, understanding what you want in a relationship is probably more important than this specific person.

• 55:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, especially at this stage or what we thought was this stage. It sounds like things are more far gone than we assumed.

• 55:51Speaker 02

  Yeah. So correct. You and your wife are in a more difficult spot than we knew. But I also understand that it's, man, it's hard to meet someone amazing who's completely different from your very challenging spouse. You're thinking about leaving and go, well, thanks for the great data point. See you in three years, maybe never.

• 56:06Speaker 03

  If the data is useful, then you probably feel the person is very important too. So.

• 56:10Speaker 02

  Right. We were just saying, be very careful, very thoughtful. Cause if you start up with this woman, then you're technically having an affair, no matter what the particulars are or how you feel inside. And that's definitely the narrative your wife is going to subscribe to if and when she finds out. And it might impact your divorce proceedings, custody conversations and relationship with your kids, all that stuff.

• 56:29Speaker 03

  So I have officially decided to move forward with a divorce.

• 56:33Speaker 02

  Wow. Big news. Okay. All right.

• 56:35Speaker 03

  The paperwork is currently in the hands of my attorney, though my wife has not officially been served yet.

• 56:40Speaker 02

  Oh my God, that must be such an intense feeling.

• 56:42Speaker 03

  Over the past few weeks, we had three serious conversations about the state of our relationship. Unfortunately, these conversations were followed by more intense, classic BPD style meltdowns and explosive arguments, leading us to agree that we need to separate.

• 56:58Speaker 02

  Dude, this guy tried in every conceivable way. I mean, we don't know what the nature or quality of the conversations is, but it sounds to me like he didn't just jump from, eh, things are bumpy at home to, I'm going to run away with this woman from Indiana, which is kind of what we initially feared.

• 57:11Speaker 03

  Since those blowups, she's calmed down a bit and started talking about a cool off period. I can tell that she's trying to control her temper, but her old OCD and BPD patterns are already creeping back in. I know this cycle all too well. And I am firmly committed to seeing the divorce through.

• 57:29Speaker 02

  Super sad, but I understand. I wish you were willing to talk about this stuff with someone.

• 57:34Speaker 03

  My attorney's general advice is that the more we can work out ourselves outside of court, the better. In a normal divorce, that makes total sense, but trying to collaborate with someone with untreated BPD is a minefield. I'm already walking on eggshells when things are relatively peaceful. I cannot fathom what living under the same roof and trying to raise our kids will look like once she's served with divorce papers.

• 57:56Speaker 02

  Oof, yeah, that's gonna be tricky.

• 57:58Speaker 03

  But I can't just move out right away because of the kids. I know a massive, toxic meltdown is coming. How do I manage living in the same house with a volatile spouse while the divorce settlement is in progress after she's served? Do you have any strategies to handle it and keep the environment safe for my kids and me? And if things get intolerable and I need to step out and live outside the main house, will that negatively impact my standing when it comes to child custody? Signed, knowing it's time for me to say no, but trying to figure out what to do and say, though, when I'm heading into this tornado.

• 58:31Speaker 02

  Man, this is intense. So first of all, thank you for sharing this update with us and sorry that it's come to this. Candidly, it sounds like the right decision. I mean, you said you both agreed that it's best to separate. It doesn't sound like there's a way forward here, especially if she straight up refuses to go to therapy and work on anything, if she truly believes that this is all your fault. So as sad as it is, it does sound necessary. That said, I really appreciate that you tried in all these ways to talk to your wife and seek out support and fix things. I think that's crucial, both to give your marriage a real shot and for you personally to know that you just did everything you could. But yeah, this is just the beginning of what I assume is gonna be a pretty bumpy ride, especially with a spouse with these particular challenges. So my first thought for you is I would get very clear with yourself about your objective during this period.

• 59:16Speaker 02

  Obviously, the main one is to separate from your wife. But at this point, that's a legal process. You've already filed the papers. By the time this comes out, I assume she'll have them. So now that that part's underway, what do you hope to accomplish? You know, if I were in your shoes, I think my goals would be to treat my soon to be ex-wife with as much kindness, peace and respect as possible under the circumstances, to take really good care of my kids and secure my relationship with them, especially if mom might have some strong reactions and just try to recruit them as allies in the separation. I'd want to protect myself, to take care of myself emotionally, to not be any more affected or hurt or manipulated by my spouse than is absolutely necessary. And to continue understanding what happened in your marriage, what you truly want and need now,

• 1:00:01Speaker 02

  how you're dealing with all this, those would be my top three. Maybe you have others or slightly different ones. Whatever they are, I would get clear on them. I would talk about them with a couple of close people. I would write them down. Everything you do and say should reflect those goals and those intentions and those values. And when things get intense in the house, which it sounds like they probably will, I would work really hard to stay kind, respectful and even keeled as much as you can. Your wife is gonna have whatever reactions she has. She's gonna turn to whatever strategies feel best in the moment, which I'm guessing probably means yelling, blaming, guilt tripping, avoiding, shutting down, retreating, generally being volatile, as you put it. And I think you're basically gonna have to let her do that.

• 1:00:44Speaker 02

  You know, whether she has BPD or not, those meltdowns and the tactics, they sound like her way of responding to shame and hurt and abandonment. So when she does that, you can, well, first of all, validate her. I'm sorry, this is so painful. I can see that you're really upset. I understand why. If you want to take a breather and have a productive conversation about how we can move through this chapter together peacefully, I'm here for that. I wouldn't patronize or condescend to her, but I would offer some basic support. I would also know when to simply back up and disengage. If you see that she wants to rage at you or make you feel guilty or ashamed or rant and rave unproductively or just create a scene, you can say, I can see you're really upset right now, but we're not having a conversation.

• 1:01:27Speaker 02

  So I'm just gonna go in the other room and if you want to try talking in a new way in a little bit, we can. Or if this continues, you can literally say, I don't think there's much more for us to say, so I'm just gonna go in the living room now and let you take care of yourself.

• 1:01:39Speaker 03

  That's a really nice approach. You can also try saying things like, I can see how hard this is for you. It's also hard for me, so how can I help and see what she says? That can be a nice question sometimes because it kind of forces the other person to reflect on what exactly they do want from you and what they might be trying to accomplish when they become volatile. Basically, you'd be asking your wife to be more thoughtful and take some accountability for the feelings that she has. So maybe she responds by saying, well, you know how you can help. You can go to therapy and work on yourself so we can stay together. And then you can say, well, that's not my understanding of why we're here, but I hear you that you think I have work to do. So, okay. Maybe she says, nothing, there's nothing you can do to help. And you say, okay, I hear you. I'm sorry. That's tough. Or maybe she surprises you and says, well, I want you to explain, you know,

• 1:02:24Speaker 03

  why you want to leave and why we have this problem, that, you know, something more productive and you guys actually have a real conversation. But asking her the question might be a good way of bringing her back to a shared plane of reality when her instinct, based on what you shared with us, is to go into her story, basically, and just kind of, you know, emote.

• 1:02:43Speaker 02

  I like that, Gabe. The other thing I would do is stay very close to your kids. Check in on them often, ask them how they're doing with this transition. If they have any questions, anything they want to talk about, listen to them, engage them, keep the door open. Make sure they know it's okay to talk to you about all this. Also, just keep hanging out with them in general. Keep doing dad stuff, whatever that is for you guys. Going to the park, making dinner, going to the movies, hanging out. I'm sure that continuity will mean a lot to them.

• 1:03:09Speaker 03

  And if they're ever around for any arguments with your wife, that's even more reason to stay calm, both so that they don't get exposed to any more pain than they have to and so that they also see dad is kind and respectful and they have a good example of how to navigate conflict in the house. I think that's really important.

• 1:03:23Speaker 02

  Agreed completely. I think they're gonna pick up on that. And if your wife does try to poison the well with them, those data points are probably gonna count for a lot. As for how moving out will impact custody, that's a question for your attorney and I think it depends on the unique facts. My understanding is generally moving out does not by itself mean that you give up custody or that you're somehow legally presumed to be the less favorable parent. In fact, in California, for example, there's a statute aimed directly at this problem. California Family Code, Section 3046, literally says that a court should not use a parent's absence or relocation from the family home against that parent when the absence is relatively short and the parent continues trying to maintain custody, visitation and contact with the child and shows no intent to abandon the child.

• 1:04:09Speaker 02

  How that actually plays out in practice, that's another question. Maybe your state has different statutes or traditions, but tons of parents move out of the house during a separation and they still get custody. I'm pretty sure this has less to do with whether you physically live in the house and more to do with what custody arrangement develops after you move out. So for example, if you get an apartment, your kids stay in the house with your wife and for the next six months, she gets them up every morning, takes them to school, does homework with them, takes them to the doctor and soccer games and sleepovers and puts them to bed and all that. And you see them every other weekend, that's a common arrangement. If you guys end up in litigation over custody, theoretically, she could point to a functioning arrangement in which the kids primarily live with her. Again, in California, I think the courts,

• 1:04:49Speaker 02

  they really primarily care about the children's existing custodial relationships and stability quite a bit. Other states might be different. So moving out can indirectly create a disadvantage by establishing a status quo. But the act of leaving the house, that itself isn't disqualifying. Again, your lawyer should absolutely be part of that decision and they will advise you best.

• 1:05:10Speaker 03

  I just want to take a quick moment to acknowledge that we're only hearing about all of this from his point of view, right? His wife sounds very challenging. BPD or not, these reactions that she is having are immensely difficult. It's kind of impossible to have a real conversation and work on things with somebody who is saying, you're the problem, I'm perfect, I have nothing to talk about. And that kind of says a lot and makes me think that his story is pretty credible, but that does not automatically mean that all of her anger and disappointment, frustration with him is meaningless, irrelevant, right? She might have some very legitimate grievances about their time together. And even if our friend here is a good person and had good intentions, he might have also done some things along the way in this highly imperfect marriage

• 1:05:54Speaker 03

  that genuinely upset her. Now, if she's genuinely upset about something, then I would think she would want to go to therapy to talk about it. So that still is a very curious stance that she's taking and probably says a lot about her willingness to dig into some really intense material for both of them. But I just want to kind of like acknowledge this because, I don't know, I find myself like you, Jordan, tell me if you agree, kind of largely on this guy's side, based on what he's saying. I mean, to be married to somebody who behaves this way is really, really difficult. And he's obviously being pulled to this other woman because she's so different from his wife. And I understand those feelings. I really do appreciate his difficult position.

• 1:06:36Speaker 03

  But there are two people in this marriage and I'm not saying that he needs to stick around and work on it with her, but it doesn't mean necessarily that he was flawless the entire time. And I just kind of want to put that on the table so that we're not missing anything huge by saying, well, here's how you can divorce perfectly and you've done nothing wrong because she won't go to therapy.

• 1:06:54Speaker 02

  So again, really sorry you guys had to go your separate ways, but given the facts, I think it was kind of inevitable and probably necessary, given that you know you want something very different.

• 1:07:03Speaker 03

  One more thing here, unless you left something big out of your last letter, we don't know if you're still talking to this woman in Indiana, what those conversations are like. But generally speaking, it sounds to me like you are doing more or less what we recommended last time, which is you're saying, I now know what a harmonious relationship looks like. That's what I want, which means I don't want to be married to a volatile spouse. And I don't want to start Cheating on her with this other person by really pursuing this affair. So I'm going to separate because it's the right thing to do. To her credit, it sounds like your wife feels similarly. I'm sure she also feels that something is not aligned here. A few people in our subreddit pointed out that her needs are probably also not being met in this marriage. And that's also relevant. And she's not happy either.

• 1:07:46Speaker 03

  Although what your wife needs, or rather what she thinks she needs and how she goes about getting those needs met, that is a bit of a complicated question. But point is, I think you're doing the right thing here. You're redefining the marriage, you're making things clear, and then you're deciding what kind of life you want to build and with whom, whether it's with this woman in Indiana or someone else. Again, it might in fact be messier than that in practice if you're still talking to her, which I'm assuming you are. But officially separating is a crucial step. Obviously legally, it's a crucial step, but also emotionally. So that you can be as clear and fair and clean as possible, all things considered.

• 1:08:22Speaker 02

  Agreed. And if he can collaborate with his wife on deciding these big things as peacefully as possible, if her wounds don't cause her to act in ways that are more painful and counterproductive, maybe they can get through this relatively unscathed. I certainly hope that's the case, but keep your eye on the prize, your emotional safety, your relationship with your kids, your independence, your freedom to pursue a different kind of romantic relationship, honestly and fairly, as honestly and fairly as possible. That's why you're doing this. And how you respond to your wife, how you relate to your kids moment to moment, every day, that's going to determine a lot of your outcomes. Sending you, your kids, even your wife, a big hug and wishing you all the best. By the way, you can reach us, [email protected]. Keep your emails concise, try to use descriptive subject lines. That makes our job a lot easier.

• 1:09:05Speaker 02

  If you're finding dead squirrels in your mailbox, your stepdad's got your nudes, your neighbors are eavesdropping on your therapy sessions through the wall, or you ended a relationship with an amazing woman abroad after she said she couldn't move to your country, whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up at [email protected]. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. Also, folks, the subreddit is fire lately. As you heard from the question above, there's a lot of people commenting on Feedback Friday especially. Come join us on the Jordan Harbinger subreddit. You know how to lure your kids into visiting you when you move into your own place. Grab some of the killer products and services that support this show. We'll be right back.

• 1:09:45Speaker 02

  If you liked this episode of Feedback Friday and you find our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do. Take a moment, support our amazing sponsors. They're all searchable and clickable on the website at jordanharbinger.com/deals. If you have a problem with anything or you can't find something, email us, [email protected]. We're happy to dig those codes up for you. It is that important that you support those who support the show.

• 1:10:10Speaker 02

  And now for the recommendation of the week.

• 1:10:12Speaker 05

  I am addicted to Litville.

• 1:10:14Speaker 02

  So mine is once again protein related, meathead, hashtag meathead. This is IsoPure Protein Drink. It's not a shake. It's not like what you're thinking. It's not one of those milk-based whey protein drinks. It has whey protein in it, but somehow, and I had to look this up because I was like, how is this possible? It's transparent and it tastes like Gatorade, but it has 32 grams of protein in it. So they did something with the whey where it just isn't milky. It doesn't have that powdery chalky kind of texture. It's a really good shift if you're sick of protein shakes or you already drink a shake, but you need another one. And the idea of drinking another shake makes you feel disgusting inside. And I know that feeling well. It's also really a lot easier to drink during a workout because again, it's more like Gatorade than milk,

• 1:10:58Speaker 02

  which you don't want to bring to the gym generally. It tastes good, or I should say fine, warm, unlike basically every other protein shake. Obviously, everything like this is better cold. It's got 32 grams of protein in there, so it's as protein rich as even some of the best of shakes. I drink Core Power Elite, as I mentioned before, that's 42, but that's heavy duty milk tasting stuff. It really is amazing. I found this when I was in Hong Kong because we were walking a ton and I wanted to try all the weird beverages. And I saw something that was called Pro-T Plus. And I was like, what is this? It's got 20 grams of protein, but it's tea. I don't understand how this works. They had a ton of varieties of it. So I looked for it because I loved it. I looked for it on Amazon and the only thing they had was this particular shake.

• 1:11:42Speaker 02

  I've only tried the apple flavor so far, but I bought cases of it because I just think this is a really interesting new category of beverage that I had never seen before two weeks ago. It's really a great product. We'll link to it in the show notes. They don't sponsor the show, as is the case with everything on the recommendation of the week. And that link again is in the show notes, which are always on the website for people who go, that never, it's never in the show notes. Yes, they are. That's just not the thing you click on your phone. It's on the website at jordanharbinger.com in the actual show notes. All right, what's next?

• 1:12:12Speaker 03

  Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I'm a 45-year-old man and I've been married for almost 20 years and have four children. I worked for a small family business since 2004 as a middle manager. My cousin and I grew the company from $1 million in revenue a year in 2005 to over $40 million in 2020.

• 1:12:30Speaker 02

  Wow, that's incredible.

• 1:12:31Speaker 03

  As a warehouse manager, I was responsible for a team of a dozen people, which was stressful, but also rewarding. In 2016, I realized I was overweight. Heart disease is also rampant in my family, so I started to go to the gym and get in good shape. I cut about 40 pounds of fat and was able to accomplish a 4-3-2 lifting goal, i.e. four plate deadlift, three plate squat, two plate bench. This was a huge boon to my mental health. Life felt great.

• 1:12:59Speaker 02

  Yoked. Amazing. Well done, man. You got to get that IsoPure stuff I'm talking about earlier.

• 1:13:04Speaker 03

  Then I noticed a problem.

• 1:13:06Speaker 02

  Oh, man.

• 1:13:06Speaker 03

  Sometime in 2018, my wife came home late in the evening and instead of going to greet her and give her hugs and affection, I just stayed in the kitchen and felt nothing. This was not me. I sat and pondered this new feeling and felt an incredible dark spot in my mind, like a black hole that was gross, dark and vile. And I got a sudden urge to start crying.

• 1:13:29Speaker 02

  Wow, intense.

• 1:13:31Speaker 03

  I've been told that this could be a sign of Alzheimer's disease or dementia. I was now starting to forget names, birthdays and special events that my wife told me about. And I just got that feeling like Gandalf in The Lord of the Rings. I have no memory of this place.

• 1:13:46Speaker 02

  Well, your sense of humor is intact, so that's something. But yeah, this sounds pretty scary. A black hole, forgetting important stuff? I mean, that's not good.

• 1:13:52Speaker 03

  I'm going to admit that I will never win husband or father of the year. I'm also starting to lose my temper more easily and make compulsive and irrational decisions and purchases.

• 1:14:02Speaker 02

  Huh, interesting. So the symptoms are all over the place, so it's kind of hard to know what's going on here.

• 1:14:08Speaker 03

  But I've never turned to drugs or gambling. I keep plugging away at my gym, keep up the family and work routine, keep the inner demons at bay and do my best to uplift others. Life is good. It's not perfect, but I'm keeping it together. But deep inside, the cracks in my mind are getting worse. In the summer of 2020, the family business got sold to a global corporation and I got laid off in 2024. It absolutely devastated me.

• 1:14:36Speaker 02

  Man, I'm sorry to hear that. That's obviously tough.

• 1:14:39Speaker 03

  It was all I knew. I never experienced unemployment in my whole life. I did find a new warehouse job within two weeks for about the same pay, but I was only responsible for one person, me. Meanwhile, I'm having a harder and harder time remembering names, dates, new policies. Now I'm verbally fighting with my wife. I'm starting to get mean. Then last year, just before my 44th birthday, I found out that I had an aortic aneurysm and a severe valve regurgitation in my heart. My aorta was three times its normal size and was going to rip at any moment. This absolutely broke me to think that the gym time that kept me alive mentally almost killed me physically.

• 1:15:20Speaker 02

  Damn, so was this caused by lifting super heavy? No, no, no, that can't be. It's got it, but it can be exacerbated by lifting super heavy, I would imagine.

• 1:15:28Speaker 03

  I would assume so. I mean, I did a quick Google on this and heavy lifting and intense training can do this apparently, but he said he, his family has a history of heart disease, so I'm assuming that played a role.

• 1:15:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, like it's probably the raw material is all there and you're like, let me try super hard and push really hard to lift super heavy stuff. And it's like, oh, we're not designed for that. You just made this a million times worse.

• 1:15:46Speaker 03

  And he was much more overweight before, so who knows how that played a role.

• 1:15:50Speaker 02

  That's a really good point. Oh, that sucks. So he was just hitting it way too. I mean, a lot of this is just bad luck. Usually people find out about this stuff because they die suddenly on a basketball court or something. So the lucky part is you found out about it in time to not die from it randomly while you're bench pressing.

• 1:16:05Speaker 03

  I underwent open heart surgery in September 2025 and got the aortic stem replaced, as well as a mechanical heart valve. I then had a complication a week later when I got home that almost killed me for a second time and required a pacemaker to fix.

• 1:16:20Speaker 02

  What a nightmare. Sorry, man.

• 1:16:22Speaker 03

  I'm now back to work and working out, but at a much lower capacity. And now I have to do cardio. Yuck.

• 1:16:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's the worst thing I've heard all episode. I hate that for you, but I don't know. Maybe it's good for you. I don't know. Everyone hates cardio, except for the people that love it, but those people are frigging weirdos.

• 1:16:37Speaker 03

  And I'm finding that it's now much harder to remember things. I forget how to get to places. I don't remember important upcoming events like I used to. And just last month, I lost it with my wife. After being nagged about so many things I don't do right, I told her that I hated my marriage and went off on an angry rant. This isn't me. I really don't like making others feel horrible, especially my wife, but I'm so quick to get mad. Most of the time now, I just don't feel anything. To be clear, I'm not suicidal, far from it. It just feels like the train of my identity is leaving and I'm trying to keep up so I can get on board before it takes off.

• 1:17:17Speaker 02

  Ooh, that's an intense metaphor. Wow.

• 1:17:20Speaker 03

  Is this depression? Is this early onset dementia? Or does this just come with the territory of being in my mid 40s? Most importantly, where do I go for help? Signed, feeling drained, like I'm circling the drain and wondering whose domain it is to suss out what's in my brain. When I find myself complain, struggle with the mundane and more and more struggle to retain.

• 1:17:44Speaker 02

  Man, such an intense letter. Obviously, my heart goes out to you. You've been through a lot here. Health problems, mental health challenges, marriage and family difficulties, a professional setback, although it sounds like you rolled with the punches pretty well. I just, it's a lot. So this goes without saying, we can't diagnose you, you know, medically or anything. It's impossible for us to know if this is depression or dementia or signs of a midlife transition. But these symptoms sound pretty specific and pretty intense. They're clearly concerning to you and they have been for a long time, years, it sounds like. If I were in your shoes, I would book the following two appointments immediately. One is with a neurologist. I would tell them what you've been experiencing, the irritability, the struggle to remember things, all these symptoms, see what they say.

• 1:18:26Speaker 02

  You might have to go to your GP first, probably a good idea because it might not be something for a neurologist, might be something for a neurologist and somebody else. Anyway, they'll probably take a medical history, do some physical exams, order some cognitive tests, maybe order some scans, do lab work. If the neurologist and GP say, ah, no indicators of dementia, great. Then you have a lot more confidence that these are symptoms related to mood, outlook, situation, health challenges, existential 40 something dude stuff. If there is something physical going on in the brain, your doctor can advise on next steps, probably medication and other lifestyle changes that will help slow the progression. But you'll cross that bridge when you get there. This is crucial. Do not sleep on this, man. Reversing this stuff is really hard to do.

• 1:19:07Speaker 02

  Pausing it is, or slowing it is really kind of the game with a lot of this brain stuff. The second appointment I'd make is obviously with a therapist.

• 1:19:16Speaker 03

  Falling on the sword two weeks in a row. Thank you for that.

• 1:19:18Speaker 02

  Happy to do it. Even, look, even if this turns out to be neurological, it sounds like you could really use a place to talk about all these changes in your life and the feelings and get more insight into your situation. This is just as important as seeing a neurologist, in my view. You're in a lot of distress. Everything you've shared is a symptom worth investigating with a good professional.

• 1:19:38Speaker 03

  Like you said, we can't diagnose this guy. The outbursts, the shifting mood, the struggle to remember things, especially how to get to places and major events in their lives and all that. Obviously that would raise alarm bells for anybody. It could also be some other health thing besides dementia. I don't want to speculate because there's no reason to freak him out unnecessarily. He just has to talk to a doctor or it could be some other injury, some other condition. But I also wonder if these could also be more garden variety symptoms of depression, dissociation, not being present and content with the structures of his life, whether it's his job or his marriage, maybe even this phase of life, you know?

• 1:20:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, I suppose that that's true. Look, also, how's he sleeping? Cause a lot of this could be explained by not sleeping or not sleeping well. And all his other challenges and stresses might be making it hard to rest. I mean, that's natural. It's just another possibility.

• 1:20:27Speaker 03

  Like you said, it's also possible that he's smack dab in a kind of midlife crisis slash transition that is doing a real number on him. I think this period usually brings up a lot of stuff for people. It can also make things that were repressed or ignored for a long time, suddenly reassert themselves very strongly. But it's just really interesting. In one part of his letter, he describes this extreme anger, right? But then in another part, he says, most of the time I just don't feel anything.

• 1:20:51Speaker 02

  Which does sound a lot like depression, but could also be him white knuckling it and dissociating a little bit.

• 1:20:56Speaker 03

  I'm also curious about this whole black hole thing that was gross, dark and vile.

• 1:21:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:21:02Speaker 03

  So intense.

• 1:21:02Speaker 02

  That is super intense. I've never heard dementia described that way. I mean, I could be wrong, but that just, it sounds like maybe something else.

• 1:21:09Speaker 03

  So what happened that night? His wife came home late, he said, and instead of going to greet her, he stayed in the kitchen and then he had the black hole moment. He seems to be describing some kind of very old pain, which who knows, might be tied to something in his past. Maybe was triggered in the moment by his wife being away most of the evening. I don't know if that's a relevant detail, but seems maybe the two are connected. And when that thing is activated, it can easily become rage or terror, basically is what I'm hearing. And if it is rage, it sounds like it's especially toward his wife. And so I agree, I'm not entirely sure that I would go, oh, that's probably dementia because somebody said that could be dementia. But of course it could be part of what's going on.

• 1:21:52Speaker 03

  But the fact that he got a sudden urge to start crying afterward? I don't know. That to me suggests that there's some pain there, something very tender and I feel for him. But in those moments, he might be in touch with something difficult to name or put words to, right? And that's very significant. It might even be the key to all of this. So again, we just cannot know whether it's a midlife existential thing or something that goes back to childhood, whether it's a physical health problem or a mental health one or circumstantial, like losing his job or in some sense, chemical, there are just so many variables.

• 1:22:23Speaker 02

  This could easily be more than one thing. Like he might have dementia and have depression and be struggling with his mood after being laid off.

• 1:22:29Speaker 03

  But I guess what I'm trying to get at is the fact that he's kind of chalking all of this up to something medical, neurological, like this thing in his brain that would be out of his control, that might be interesting in context. Our friend here is wrestling with a bunch of symptoms and a bunch of challenges and he's going, I think it's dementia. What do I do if it's dementia? Well, maybe it is dementia. There do seem to be some concerning memory things going on. The loss of identity is concerning, but maybe chalking all of this up to dementia is also preventing him from really taking stock of what he is dealing with and how he got here. He might not want to really look at the stuff and dig into it. So he's going, well, it's got to be medical. My hope is that a good therapist could help him start talking about some of this stuff. But he has to get a lot more curious about himself than he currently seems to be.

• 1:23:13Speaker 02

  Agreed. There's so much more here, even if he does have something neurological. And if there is something neurological, that's also going to affect his mood, outlook, relationships. So the two are related. He can't afford to neglect this. That said though, I do think it's somewhat encouraging that he's saying, hey, this isn't me. I really don't like making people feel horrible, especially my wife.

• 1:23:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, true. He's a decent person. You can hear that in his letter, but I also wonder if that's entirely accurate. I mean, you could argue that these thoughts and feelings are him in the sense that, well, first of all, they're happening inside of him. So there's that, but also they might reflect some legitimate feelings, unpleasant feelings, but legitimate ones about parts of his life that he is not happy with, or relationships and responsibilities that are difficult for him sometimes. I think any feeling, any symptom is usually a sign pointing to an area that we need to invest some time in and potentially make some changes. All of this might also be a response to the terror he feels about what is happening in his body, both with his heart and potentially his brain. And all of that would make them very valuable indeed. So I hear him.

• 1:24:17Speaker 03

  He doesn't feel like a naturally angry person. He doesn't like to be cruel. But I also wonder if by saying, well, this isn't me, he's denying some of these feelings or distancing himself from them. And if that might make it that much harder for him to invite them in and say, okay, this is going on for me too. I don't like it, but these feelings are here and I need to take a look at them and see what they're trying to tell me.

• 1:24:38Speaker 02

  It's a good point. There's a difference between saying, I'm doing these things, but this isn't me. And I'm doing these things, but I don't want to be this kind of person.

• 1:24:45Speaker 03

  Exactly. But the only way to not be this kind of person, if you don't want to be, is to become friendlier with the parts of you that are causing the shame and distress. I don't think there's another way.

• 1:24:54Speaker 02

  Totally agree. And yeah, look, a lot of this can come with the territory of being in your mid 40s. It's a massive transition that comes with a lot of change and a lot of feelings, but I wouldn't say it just comes with the territory. So like, you know, it's nothing to worry about. I'm just in my 40s. I absolutely think you need to take these symptoms seriously and follow them to a neurologist and a therapist's stat. I would be very open with both of them about what you're experiencing, these conflicts and the moments you're finding yourself in, what concerns you, and just listen to what they have to say and then go from there. I'm sorry for all the stress and uncertainty you've dealt with lately. I can only imagine how hard that's been, but I'm confident that with the right support, you can use all of this to learn and grow a ton and take good care of the people around you, including your wife. Sending you a big hug and wishing you all the best.

• 1:25:40Speaker 02

  Don't forget to check out our episode with Sean Wisswasser on Russian intelligence services. Are they corrupt buffoons or super spies or a little bit of both? And our skeppy sunny on food deserts, if you haven't done so yet. Show notes and transcripts are on the website at jordanharbinger.com. Advertisers, discounts, ways to support the show also on the website at jordanharbinger.com/deals. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. You can find Gabe on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi. This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tatis Alauskas, and of course Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own and I'm a lawyer, but not your lawyer. Consult a qualified professional before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love.

• 1:26:25Speaker 02

  And if you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn and we'll see you next time.

• 1:26:37Speaker 02

  You'd never obey a stranger who called you and told you to commit a crime, right? Javier Leva uncovers how ordinary, intelligent people were manipulated by fake authority into doing the unthinkable and why the certainty that you'd never fall for it could make you the perfect target.

• 1:26:51Speaker 06

  This is the con. Cause I interview a lot of con artists. What they do is they overwhelm you. They raise your sense of urgency, which now you're bypassing all your common sense, things that would normally make sense to us. We're not even thinking about that, right? Because we're like in a state of alarm. We're hardwired to trust people. People obey because we're taught to respect authority. I found case after case of people impersonating ICE agents and doing all kinds of stuff, not just rape or violent crime, extortion, like all kinds of stuff. And I was like, you know what? You could go to a Bass Pro shop and buy your ICE uniform, right? And you could pull off whatever you want because people respect authority.

• 1:27:36Speaker 06

  People are afraid of authority and they will most likely do what you say. And you might fall for it. This is just the tip of the iceberg, man. When somebody causes a sense of urgency and you bypass your logic, just slow it down, pause it, give yourself some time to think, because when you're acting out of fear, you're making bad decisions. And I think just doing that will save you a lot of grief. This stuff is insane and is probably the most extreme examples, but I think that just have that in the back of your mind, that some people are looking to take advantage of you and just have a healthy dose of skepticism.

• 1:28:17Speaker 02

  Find out how to recognize the trap before your judgment and your life unravels on episode 1330 of The Jordan Harbinger Show.

• 1:28:29Speaker 02

  Your sausage McMuffin with egg didn't change. Your receipt did. The sausage McMuffin with egg extra value meal includes a hash brown and a small coffee for just $5, only at McDonald's for a limited time. Price and participation may vary. Promotion pricing may be lower than meal pricing.