1377: Is Help Unseekable for Attraction Unspeakable? | Feedback Friday

You carry an attraction you never chose and never acted on, but therapy could trigger a report that ruins you. Get help, or hide? It's Feedback Friday! And in case you didn't already know it, Jordan Harbinger (@JordanHarbinger https://twitter.com/JordanHarbinger) and Gabriel Mizrahi (@GabeMizrahi https://twitter.com/GabeMizrahi) banter and take your comments and questions for Feedback Friday right here every week! If you want us to answer your question, register your feedback, or tell your story on one of our upcoming weekly Feedback Friday episodes, drop us a line at [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. Now let's dive in! Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/1377 https://jordanharbinger.com/1377 On This Week's Feedback Friday: If you want to take a siesta on Gabe's Barcelona adventures and resident post-traumatic growth expert Arseny Thumb von Neuburg's thoughts on cognitive empathy vs. affective empathy, skip forward about 16 minutes and 30 seconds! You're a pedophile who's never acted on it and swears you never will — but the secret is crushing you. You want a therapist to help you rewire your brain, yet you're terrified that opening up triggers mandatory reporting and torches the life you've built. Where does someone in your position even find real help? Remember the lonely wife from episode 1365 — the one whose husband grinds 80-90 hours a week and never plans the date night or trip she keeps asking for? A sharp listener writes in to reframe the whole thing: maybe it was never about a vacation, but about who quietly carries everything else. So who's really right? You're a vegan wellness pro who buried your father, brother, and mother from heart disease — and now you're watching your partner of 20 years surrender to four medications, a widening waistline, and financial shame. You have the knowledge to help him; what you lack is the key to reaching him. How do you break through? Recommendation of the Week: My Dad Wrote a Porno https://www.mydadwroteaporno.com/ — the podcast where a man discovers his mild-mannered retired dad secretly wrote a gloriously terrible erotic novel, then reads it aloud with two friends, chapter by chapter. Some of the finest comedy around! You've quietly become the person your kid self dreamed of — great job, a dog you adore, hobbies, real friends. Now an inheritance could bankroll the wild dream: a plot in northern England, your own planted forest, a hand-built cabin, food you grow yourself. Do you leap, or is that just skipping down delulu lane? Have any questions, comments, or stories you'd like to share with us? Drop us a line at [email protected] mailto:[email protected]! Connect with Jordan on Twitter at @JordanHarbinger https://twitter.com/JordanHarbinger and Instagram at @jordanharbinger https://www.instagram.com/jordanharbinger. Connect with Gabriel on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi https://twitter.com/GabeMizrahi and Instagram @gabrielmizrahi https://www.instagram.com/gabrielmizrahi/. And if you're still game to support us, please leave a review here https://itunes.apple.com/podcast/id1344999619?mt=2&ls=1 — even one sentence helps! Sign up for Six-Minute Networking https://jordanharbinger.com/course — our free networking and relationship development mini course — at jordanharbinger.com/course https://jordanharbinger.com/course! Subscribe to our once-a-week Wee Bit Wiser https://www.jordanharbinger.com/news/ newsletter today and start filling your Wednesdays with wisdom! Do you even Reddit, bro? Join us at r/JordanHarbinger https://www.reddit.com/r/JordanHarbinger/! This Episode Is Brought To You By Our Fine Sponsors https://www.jordanharbinger.com/deals/: Xero: Learn more: xero.com https://www.xero.com/BetterHelp: 10% off first month: betterhelp.com/jordan https://www.betterhelp.com/jordanSimpliSafe Home Security: 50% off + 1st month free: simplisafe.com/jordan https://simplisafe.com/jordanMint Mobile: Shop plans at mintmobile.com/jhs https://www.mintmobile.com/jhsSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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• 1:03Speaker 01

  Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, the two-in-one shampoo and conditioner, cleansing and rehydrating these greasy locks of life conundrum, Gabriel Mizrahi.

• 1:15Speaker 02

  What an obscure one. What does that make you, the loofah?

• 1:18Speaker 01

  Unfortunately, yes. I am the fluffy slash scratchy sponge absorbing all of the shower detritus.

• 1:24Speaker 02

  Just hanging for months from the shower dial? The one you do not want to share with other people?

• 1:28Speaker 01

  Because it's full of skin cells. Yeah, all loofahs should be monogamous, I think.

• 1:33Speaker 02

  No E and M for those loofahs. It's public health, guys.

• 1:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, we don't make the rules. Hey, Gabe, what are we talking about right now?

• 1:39Speaker 02

  I don't know. We were talking about how I'm the two-in-one shampoo and conditioner and you're the loofah of the advice world. Very straightforward metaphor.

• 1:48Speaker 01

  Well, I guess that's why on the Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. And during the week, we have long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks. CEOs, rocket scientists, drug traffickers, jihadis, former jihadis, anyway, hostage negotiators. This week, we had an episode with Sean Himmian, a meth-dealing Mormon on a redemption tour, and also a skeptical Sunday last Sunday on alphas. You know, alpha males, alpha females, alpha wolves, all that kind of stuff. On Fridays, though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, play obnoxious soundbites and lose ourselves in increasingly ridiculous and arcane metaphors for me and Gabe's role in y'all's lives.

• 2:28Speaker 03

  Producer Jace here. How are you doing today? If you'd like to take a siesta on Gabe's Barcelona stories, you can take a siesta and wake up at the first question by skipping to 60 minutes and 30 seconds. Enjoy the show.

• 2:44Speaker 01

  Gabe, where are you this week? I mean, you're in a dark room, but that doesn't really narrow it down. How many hot yoga classes have you done? Maybe that's a better place to start.

• 2:50Speaker 02

  I'm in Barcelona now. I got here two days ago and on the hot yoga front, you know, no comment.

• 2:57Speaker 01

  Right, so that means two classes in two days.

• 2:59Speaker 02

  That is, that is correct.

• 3:01Speaker 01

  Nice. All right. Well, you didn't waste any time, did you? I got, the way I admire that, right? It's like going to the gym the first day you land on a vacation. I'm always like, dang, you're that guy. I wish I was that guy.

• 3:10Speaker 02

  I have to be that guy. It's usually my first stop in any new place. First of all, got to plant a flag. Second of all, it just sets the tone and helps you get onto the local... Well, there was no time zone shift, but with time zones, it really helps.

• 3:22Speaker 01

  Got to plant a sweaty vinyasa flag, I guess. But I, again, I get it. I work out on the road too. Not nearly as much as I should, not nearly as hard as I should. But I try to work remotely through my trainer and then all bets are off because he's going to kick my butt in hotel gym. And that's great because if I don't, the chaos of travel just takes over and things get messy and then you leave and you're like, oh, I lost weight. But it's all muscle and you just feel like a blob. Yeah, not great.

• 3:45Speaker 02

  Totally. This is one of the pillars that I find makes the nomading doable, more than doable. Like it's fun, enjoyable, but sustainable.

• 3:53Speaker 01

  What's the other pillar burning sage in your Airbnb?

• 3:56Speaker 02

  Palo Santo, actually.

• 3:57Speaker 01

  I don't even know what that is. Do I, do I know what that is?

• 4:00Speaker 02

  I'm sure you've smelled it at some point.

• 4:01Speaker 01

  Is that the wood that yoga teachers burn before class sometimes?

• 4:05Speaker 02

  That's the one.

• 4:05Speaker 01

  You know, I actually like that stuff.

• 4:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's great.

• 4:08Speaker 01

  I mean, I don't think it's cleansing my aura or anything like that, but I like how it smells and that's good enough, eh?

• 4:13Speaker 02

  That's what the loofahs for.

• 4:14Speaker 01

  Who needs sweet hippie wood when you've got a Jordan loofah? Again, I'm not sure what we're talking about. The metaphor is a little off the rails.

• 4:21Speaker 02

  We are talking about how to survive the chaos of travel at this pace.

• 4:24Speaker 01

  Right. Hot yoga for you.

• 4:25Speaker 02

  It's kind of ridiculous though, because as you know, Europe is going through this crazy heat wave, right?

• 4:29Speaker 01

  Right.

• 4:30Speaker 02

  It did die down a little the last couple of days, but it is still blazing hot. Like I think all of Europe mostly is a hot yoga studio right now. So just walking around, you get so, everyone is super sweaty. Everyone I know takes three showers a day. And then I'm like going and walking into this 90-degree room, which I believe is 32 degrees centigrade.

• 4:50Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 4:51Speaker 02

  And doing mat Pilates or HIIT or whatever for an hour. It's just kind of not a normal choice.

• 4:56Speaker 01

  I love that you walk out of a 32-degree room and you walk out into 34-degree weather in Spain.

• 5:04Speaker 02

  That's a bonus class. That's how I'm reframing it.

• 5:07Speaker 01

  You got to walk home and you're like, oh, even hotter, but less stretching. I mean, it just seems a little redundant because 90 degrees, 32 centigrade, that's, I guess that's doable. When I go with you to your place in LA, though, that's like 110 or 115, right? Which is what, 45 degrees Celsius? Because that's intense. That's a whole different ballgame.

• 5:24Speaker 02

  This is kid's stuff. This is fine. They do not, as far as I can tell, they don't go infernal here in Europe.

• 5:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, they go toasty, moderately hellish.

• 5:32Speaker 02

  That's right. And sometimes that's actually a little nicer because at the studio back home, the one I took you to, people, sometimes people faint. It's so hot.

• 5:39Speaker 01

  I went out because I was like, I have to pee and I just need a break because I'm starting to feel a little bit dizzy. And I remember when I walked back in, I was like, oh, someone's in my spot. And then I totally realized that I was disoriented as hell and had no idea where I was going. And I kept walking and I bumped into a couple of people gently and I apologized. And at the end, they were like, no, no need to even, like we saw, like when I saw your glassy-eyed look, it was like, oh, yeah. Because I was like, that girl's on my spot, not even close. It was like four rows ahead and I just couldn't, I was like, oh, I, if I'd stayed in here, that would have been really bad news.

• 6:14Speaker 02

  You ever do hot yoga so good you get Alzheimer's?

• 6:17Speaker 01

  Jeez. That's how you know you hit the zone. That's zone five right there. You just don't remember where you are.

• 6:24Speaker 02

  I now feel like I am obligated to say that fainting in hot yoga back in LA is rare and it does not seem fatal, but it does happen. Once every two, three months, you, you hear an ambulance siren pull up to the studio.

• 6:37Speaker 01

  Nice, mildly terrifying. Their insurance premiums must be through the roof. Or do they, is it one of those where they like drag the body outside and then call 911?

• 6:45Speaker 02

  I don't know what's higher, the insurance premiums or their electricity bill. Because they're just pumping heat into those rooms 24/7. Anyway, I found a very solid studio in Barcelona with good heat, great vibes. I went back today for a sculpt class with ankle weights, all women and me, and it kicked my ass, dude.

• 7:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, so Barcelona itself, because I could not care less about hot yoga anymore. You, so are you, are you liking Barcelona? Because I've heard the city is just amazing.

• 7:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm loving it. I'm burying the lead because I haven't even told you about beautiful Barca. I'm just going on about hot yoga, but yes, the yoga's part of it, but it's, I'm loving it, dude. I'm a big fan of the city.

• 7:23Speaker 01

  I'm not like a big architecture guy, but it's pretty cool, right? It's supposed to be stunning. There's cool buildings everywhere.

• 7:28Speaker 02

  Next level. And not just the gaudy buildings, which are obviously mind-blowingly gorgeous, but the sort of normal buildings, I mean, the sort of average buildings are just incredible. Like I find myself doing something I usually don't do in cities, which I'll be walking through these beautiful boulevards and tree-lined streets and my head will just be craned up the whole time, like just taking it in because it's so beautiful.

• 7:53Speaker 01

  Do you bike at all? It seems like a bike-friendly kind of place.

• 7:56Speaker 02

  It's super bike-friendly. It's very flat, so it's easy to get around. I bike and I walk. I do both. More hot yoga.

• 8:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it must be kind of like that, except when you're biking, you're getting hot yoga with exhaust fumes and unfiltered cigarettes from the streets of Barcelona. I just imagine Spain always has a festival with people squirting each other or throwing tomatoes or something like that.

• 8:18Speaker 02

  Oh, you're thinking, I've not seen anyone throwing tomatoes yet, but they are having a massive festival in my neighborhood. I'm staying in Gracia and it's like, there's like, I don't know what the word is, but they have these neighborhood festivals that are, I think, funded by the city hall, where these neighborhoods get together in the squares. You know, they have like multiple squares that people gather in, right? I think there's a contest for who can come up with the best theme and every square or every street will have its own theme. Like one will be underwater and another one will be like haunted house. And like they just have all these different cool spots to like increase community engagement, I guess. And so there are thousands of people in the street late at night, every single night, even during the week. It's so full of life. I feel like I've been infected by it.

• 9:02Speaker 02

  I'm like so hyped.

• 9:04Speaker 01

  Europe is just so cool like that. It's safe of general, well, it's safer. So like, I don't know, at least when I was there in the 90s, right? Living there as an exchange student, you could go to an event like Love Parade that had like a million people and the biggest news would be like, somebody got stabbed. I mean, they're okay, but somebody got stabbed. Can you believe it? Unreal what's going on. And meanwhile, events that big in many other places turn into stampede deaths or just violence and stuff like that. Europe's getting some more of that now for reasons that we won't go into here on the show.

• 9:33Speaker 02

  It's a different thing.

• 9:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 9:35Speaker 02

  I'll tell you this, I feel like it's a world away from Los Angeles. LA doesn't have, has never really had this, right? You're either in your car or you're at home or you're at your place that you went to. There's no, I'm going to walk for 30 minutes to meet my friend for tapas and then meander home and see what happens.

• 9:50Speaker 01

  No, and you know what's funny? When I moved from New York to LA, I was like, I'm not getting a car. And people were like, you need a car. And I was like, I'm just going to hang out in my neighborhood. And they're like, okay. And then a few Months, several months. I was like, look, I work at home all the time, but I can't even get to the dentist. I'm taking taxis. This is a pre Uber. Those guys were like jerks. They'd overcharge you. They'd refuse to give you a ride because it was too short. Or they'd drive you around. And I was like, all right, I actually do need a car. It's very hard to walk in LA. It's very dangerous to bike in LA. And so you just have the walking dead in LA, really.

• 10:20Speaker 02

  That's right. In fact, I remember the first time we met up for that dinner when you just moved to LA, you walked forty five minutes from your apartment. Cause you showed up and you were sweaty and you're like, oh, I'm sorry. I walked. I was like, I'm sorry. Are you like trying to get exercise? And you're like, no, I don't have a car.

• 10:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:32Speaker 02

  Like my, my dude.

• 10:34Speaker 01

  You were like, dude, I could have arranged to get you a ride. And I was like, no, it's fine. I thought I would walk and it, yeah, it took me like ninety minutes or something to get there, maybe more. I don't even know.

• 10:43Speaker 02

  I also had the pleasure of going for a little stroll with one of our listeners, Stuart, super cool dude, very bright, super creative. He's an entrepreneur. He lives here now and doing some very cool fintech stuff that honestly is so sophisticated. I don't even fully understand it, but he showed me around my first night. And he's a very passionate Feedback Friday listener. I think he said he listens to the show on his hikes up this huge hill in Barcelona that he does every week. So shout out to Stuart. You're a real one. And thank you for dropping me a line.

• 11:10Speaker 01

  So jealous. I love meeting listeners when traveling. It's funny because I'll go to a city and people are like, you didn't call me. And I'm like, I called five of you. Only, sorry. Yeah, I'm glad you're having a good time. You're gonna have to tell us if you get whisked away in a European ambulance.

• 11:25Speaker 02

  Yeah. If I do, it'll make that cute European ambulance sound, you know.

• 11:29Speaker 01

  The one you see in like old, old movies, uh, when they're in Europe, they all, you ever notice, actually, I don't know if this is deliberate, but I assume that it is. You know more about film than me. When you see an old movie, they often have a siren, just so everyone knows they're in a different place and it's Europe because the siren is weird, right? It's like the audio version of showing the Eiffel Tower, like just so you know, they're in France.

• 11:53Speaker 02

  That's actually really brilliant.

• 11:54Speaker 01

  Want to show the one thing you guys know about France.

• 11:56Speaker 02

  That's cool though. That's cool. Like the sound design is telling you where you are without having to spell it out.

• 12:01Speaker 01

  Right.

• 12:01Speaker 02

  Or it just at least creates, creates a feeling of, ooh, foreign place.

• 12:05Speaker 01

  They do it with Bond too, right? They'll show a landmark too, but sometimes it's a little too obvious. But they also use those sirens and different models that like, they try to make it really look completely different. In the old Bond movies, obviously the new ones are, you know, there's tons of things going on there, but even the old ones are like, we want to make sure the Americans get that this is Italy, but we can't just say like, Italy, it's too much. We don't just show the Colosseum. It's like, they need to know before that. So anyway, yeah, I love that sound. Is ours is a little like intense. Uh, it's a little stabby, little auditory stabs.

• 12:38Speaker 02

  What is it? No, I can't remember. It's like.

• 12:41Speaker 01

  It depends where you are. Actually, there's different sirens. This is such a ridiculous tangent. There's different sirens depending on where you are. And what kind of emergency vehicle it is. And New York has these very modern sort of buzzy ones that are, are not constant because it bounces off the buildings and it's just terrible. So they have like burp, burp, like the buzzy thing. There are some cities in Germany when I was in, they had American sirens. And I asked, why are the sirens different in Magdeburg is where the city was. And one of the guys was like, actually, our police chief went to the United States for some kind of training thing. And came back and was like, I want to model our police department off of a whatever department in the US. So he bought American sirens for

• 13:23Speaker 01

  the Magdeburg Police Department. I don't know how much of that is true, but it was like one of the only cities in Europe where I went, whoa, they have US sirens here. What a random thing to have.

• 13:32Speaker 02

  What a strange piece of trivia you have just shared, but I feel bad now for the residents of this city because that is like being stabbed in the ear with an ice pick.

• 13:40Speaker 01

  Yep, that's right.

• 13:40Speaker 02

  Everything is cuter in Europe.

• 13:42Speaker 01

  They go cute. We go to war.

• 13:44Speaker 02

  That's right. So before we kick off, I want to share a quick gem from our listener, Arsene Tum von Neuburg, our resident post-traumatic growth expert, also a friend of the show. He sent me a note a few days ago and he said, hey, guys, rereading your newsletter about forgiveness a while back. And then hearing last week's episode with the wife of the traumatized husband who's trying to differentiate between compassion and self-sacrifice. A thought occurred to me, which you may find interesting. In the newsletter, you talk about compassion as understanding why the other person did what they did. Interestingly, this definition is very close to what empathy research calls cognitive empathy. That means perspective taking, understanding what the other person is experiencing and why.

• 14:28Speaker 02

  Cognitive empathy is distinct from so-called affective empathy, i.e. feeling the emotions of the other person in yourself. The two types of empathy can have different effects. For example, in negotiations, cognitive empathy is very helpful while affective empathy can even be counterproductive for the outcome. Imagine you're a house buyer negotiating the purchase price. If you know that the selling party is a family that is being forced to sell their home to pay for their child's medical treatments, you'd probably feel some of their emotional pain, which would be affective empathy. Which may lead you to not negotiate as hard or may even cause you to overpay for the house.

• 15:08Speaker 02

  Feeling with the other party may cause you to negotiate against yourself, generally not a sustainable long-term strategy. However, if instead of feeling their emotional experience, you focus on understanding what the seller needs, which would be cognitive empathy. It may lead you to find creative win-win solutions that won't involve simply overpaying. For example, you could find a payment structure that would allow the family to cover their immediate medical treatments while allowing you to buy the house at a price that you won't regret later. Win-win. In reality, we probably need both types of empathy in different situations. We need affective empathy to create connection and belonging. We need cognitive empathy, perspective taking, to move from emotions to solutions.

• 15:54Speaker 02

  The obvious caveat here is that high cognitive empathy, rationally understanding the needs of the other person without any affective empathy, feeling their emotions, comes dangerously close to the calculated manipulation we see in sociopaths. Just wanted to share that with you to tease out some nuances in one of my favorite topics. Arsene.

• 16:15Speaker 01

  I like that distinction. Super smart.

• 16:16Speaker 02

  I thought so too. We talk a lot about empathy, sympathy, compassion, you know, identifying with people. We talk a lot about appreciating other people's point of view. These terms start to blur and I really actually don't often think about what are the subtle differences among them. I like how Arsene laid it out, but I like even more the idea that sometimes you need to be careful about which one you're doing, you know? Cause like, yes, affective empathy is a virtue, right? It's powerful. It's kind. It's all of these things. But if you're affectively empathizing with someone in an adversarial setting, like the one that our study mentioned, or I don't know, I imagine you, you were an attorney, Jordan, like if you're dealing with opposing counsel, you know,

• 16:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:52Speaker 02

  in a trial or in a negotiation, or you're in a promotion pitch where only one person in your department can get the job, stuff like that, that might become a liability.

• 17:02Speaker 01

  Whereas if you can take the perspective of your opponent, that could be a superpower without undermining yourself.

• 17:07Speaker 02

  Exactly. Yeah. But then in a friendship or, you know, a family relationship, like with a dear friend or a child, say, affective empathy might be what you need. And cognitive empathy might actually not be enough and could actually put more distance maybe between you and also kind of dishonor the relationship. So that's interesting too.

• 17:25Speaker 01

  Right, right. It's a nice distinction. Man, I really like Arsene's takes. Very insightful.

• 17:29Speaker 02

  He's got a great lens on this stuff. So big thanks to him. And if you want to learn more about Arsene and his work, he's a really great executive coach who did his dissertation on post-traumatic growth. So it's just a wealth of knowledge about this topic. We'll link to his LinkedIn in the show notes.

• 17:43Speaker 01

  All right. Fun ones, doozies, et cetera, et cetera. Gabe, what's the first thing out of the mailbag?

• 17:48Speaker 02

  Before we dive in, this one deals with some fairly adult sexual stuff. It's nothing graphic, but I would probably say teenagers and up only for this one. Just wanted to give you guys a warning. Hi Friday friends. I've got a bit of a doozy for you. I'll lay it out here in a simple statement. I am a pedophile.

• 18:08Speaker 01

  Oh, wow. Okay.

• 18:10Speaker 02

  To be clear, I have never had inappropriate contact with an individual and I believe deep down in my heart that I never will. I also do not view any illegal material. That being said, since I started taking an interest in the opposite sex, I've always had an unwilling attraction to early teenage girls. It's odd though, because while I do fantasize about it, when I've been around younger girls in the past, I don't actually have any real life attraction or desire for them. I liken it to someone that watches snuff films, but they would never actually kill someone. It's just a thing that when I have my alone time, it's often what I think about. It's not the only thing I think about, but it's the most common.

• 18:52Speaker 02

  This has brought me a great deal of shame. It impacts my relationships as I'm hesitant to date someone with kids. I frequently consider suicide because of these thoughts. While I believe my willpower is strong enough to overcome any compulsions, I worry that someday I will stray and end up negatively impacting someone else's life as well as my own. I'm no stranger to therapy, but I've never been open with a therapist about these desires. I don't want to fall into a mandatory reporting scenario where the therapist reports me out of an abundance of caution. I am confident that nothing I have done is illegal or unethical, but I'm worried about even having my name attached to an accusation.

• 19:34Speaker 02

  I have a great career and I love to travel. These accusations could obviously impact both. As well as wreck my family and social connections. I likely would just choose to exit rather than deal with any fallout. I'd like to try to find a therapist to discuss these urges with. I want to understand why my brain works the way it does. I also want to try to rewire my brain if possible.

• 20:00Speaker 02

  Sites such as beforeyouact.org and similar, but there are none within a several hour drive of me. What recommendations do you have to seek out someone who can help me with this? Are there any other suggestions you have outside of therapy? Signed, expecting revulsion and fearing expulsion for seeking out help for the shameful compulsion.

• 20:21Speaker 01

  Okay, wow, this is quite a letter. So before we dive in, I want to say a few words about all this. It's a little delicate, but I feel it's important. I want to thank you for writing in, for being so forthcoming and vulnerable about all this, for giving us a glimpse into life with this particular condition. This is just not an easy thing to talk about. I can't even imagine what it's like to write in about. And I really just appreciate your courage in disclosing these thoughts, your responsibility in not acting on them apparently in any way. That's a huge relief when you said that, by the way. Thank you for letting us know that. Your genuine desire to seek out help and work on this. It's interesting, Gabe. I think it's fair to say that pedophiles are generally pretty reviled people in our society. I know that's a no surprise to anybody, and I understand why.

• 21:06Speaker 01

  It's a very tragic crime to hurt a child in this way.

• 21:09Speaker 02

  Sure, yeah, of course.

• 21:11Speaker 01

  And it's despicable, really. I get why a lot of people who struggle with these impulses are treated the way they are. And that's probably appropriate in a lot of cases. At the same time, and this is the kind of delicate part, I have to admit that whenever I hear about people who are attracted to minors.

• 21:26Speaker 02

  You have some empathy for them, right?

• 21:28Speaker 01

  Sympathy, I can't remember the distinction between these two things, right?

• 21:31Speaker 02

  Cognitive or affective, I'm not sure.

• 21:32Speaker 01

  I mean, a big part of me just feels really bad for these folks because like, imagine living with that impulse. Imagine living with whatever trauma created that impulse or whatever wiring led to it. I don't know how these things happen. And you're just not able to control those thoughts and feelings. That's really awful.

• 21:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, totally. It's got to be very distressing.

• 21:51Speaker 01

  I mean, just listen to the letter. The distress our friend is in, how this has constrained his life and affected his relationships. He would rather kill himself than open up about this. And he hasn't done anything. I find that heartbreaking.

• 22:03Speaker 02

  I have to say, I do too. At the same time, that empathy is compatible with, A, helping people heal, hopefully, and B, holding people accountable if they are a danger to children.

• 22:13Speaker 01

  Of course, yes, for sure. And so I kind of move between these two positions when it comes to something like pedophilia, really. Obviously, we need some kind of intervention. I'm not sitting here condoning or minimizing pedophilia or whatever by any measure.

• 22:24Speaker 02

  No, I don't hear you saying that at all. I'm just, you're saying this must be a heavy burden to live with, and I agree.

• 22:31Speaker 01

  It's very heavy and very difficult, I'm sure. I can't, it's hard to wrap my mind around that.

• 22:35Speaker 02

  When I hear a story like this, from a person like this, who is successfully resisting these thoughts, who does not view child sexual abuse material, sees him, who doesn't put himself in situations where he might slip and hurt someone, who seems to have a good grasp on what is happening in his head, who does seriously want to change, I have even more empathy. I appreciate this.

• 22:55Speaker 01

  That, to me, places a person like this in a different category from actual, active predators who are a real threat to society, who do need to be stopped and locked up.

• 23:05Speaker 02

  Of course.

• 23:05Speaker 01

  Anyway, all that to say, I appreciate your lens on all this and I commend it. So, we wanted to get a real expert's opinion on all this. So we reached out to Dr. Erin Margolis, clinical psychologist and friend of the show, and somebody with more insurance than I do when it comes to discussing heavy duty stuff like this.

• 23:22Speaker 04

  I am also known to the people who know me the best as the [bleep] doctor.

• 23:27Speaker 01

  And Dr. Margolis had the same reaction when we first spoke with her. She validated how hard it is to talk about this stuff, and she really appreciated your insight, your ability to distinguish between having thoughts and acting on those thoughts. And just FYI, Dr. Margolis also consulted with another colleague of hers to make sure that everything she said reflected the latest thinking on this topic, best practices in the field, ethical obligations, all that. So we're treating this one pretty carefully because, yeah, we don't want to get it wrong.

• 23:52Speaker 02

  Getting a Feedback Friday shrink two-for-one special today.

• 23:55Speaker 01

  Not bad, not bad.

• 23:56Speaker 02

  You're welcome.

• 23:57Speaker 01

  That's right, BOGO. So, the first thing Dr. Margolis wanted to talk about is the difference between what's called ego-sentonic thoughts and ego-dystonic thoughts. Ego-sentonic refers to a thought, feeling, behavior that feels consistent with who you are, meaning it seems natural, it feels reasonable, it aligns with your values, desires, how you want to be in the world. It feels, it feels, you know, like me. Ego-dystonic means the thought, feeling, or behavior feels alien, unwanted, or inconsistent with your values or sense of self. For example, if someone had the intrusive violent thought, "I want to go stab my coworker in the break room right now", and then they find that horrifying and they have no desire to actually act on it, that would be ego-dystonic. Wow, I feel like I have those all the time, by the way.

• 24:40Speaker 02

  That also felt weirdly personal, a little close to home, Jordan.

• 24:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, I remember when I first started dating Jen, I was like, "Do you ever just think, what if I stood up and slapped the waitress right across the face?" And she's like, "All the time, every single time I go out to eat." And I was like, "I'm in love with you." Because I thought like, I'm such a weirdo. Like, why am I thinking about knocking all the plates out of this man's hands? He's a nice guy, it's my own food, I would never do that. And, but it's just flashed through my head real quick. And then she's like, "Yeah, those are called intrusive thoughts", and millions and millions and millions of people have them. And I was like, "Oh my God, thank goodness."

• 25:14Speaker 02

  And kids, that is how I met your mother.

• 25:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Anyway, back from casual assault to pedophilia, that's the difference between ego-sentonic and ego-dystonic thoughts.

• 25:23Speaker 02

  And FYI, most mental health disorders are ego-dystonic, and that's why most people seek out help for this stuff when it doesn't fit.

• 25:30Speaker 01

  So, obviously, pedophilic thoughts that are ego-sentonic are much more concerning than ones that are ego-dystonic. But to quote Dr. Margolis, "One of the first things I hear when I read this letter is that these thoughts are ego-dystonic." Because you're describing this as an unwilling attraction, because you say it's brought you a great deal of shame.

• 25:47Speaker 02

  And you're working hard to overcome these compulsions.

• 25:50Speaker 01

  Yes, and the whole problem seems to create a lot of distress for you, of course. So Dr. Margolis's take is that that insight is crucial and is also encouraging. She also believes that it's a very important protective factor for you because you are far less likely to act on these urges. So that's good news, I suppose.

• 26:06Speaker 02

  So this is where things get interesting because it sounds like you're kind of self-diagnosed as a pedophile. But as Dr. Margolis pointed out, we actually don't know for sure that you meet the criteria for what is called pedophilic disorder, which is how the DSM classifies pedophilia under what is called paraphilic disorders. She said it's possible that your symptoms could be explained by something else, namely, what's called pedophilic OCD or P-O-C-D. So, a quick word about P-O-C-D. P-O-C-D is a commonly used name for a theme or a presentation of obsessive-compulsive disorder. With P-O-C-D, the person is not characteristically experiencing a sexual attraction and then worrying about what to do with it.

• 26:49Speaker 02

  They're obsessing over the possibility that they might secretly have that attraction. And so, the thoughts that come with P-O-C-D tend to be intrusive and unwanted, like, "What if I'm attracted to children? What if that feeling I just had was sexual? What if I secretly enjoyed looking at that child? What if I've been a pedophile all along and I haven't realized it?" That tends to produce feelings like fear, disgust, shame, uncertainty, which then causes the person to try to resolve those feelings through compulsions, which could be, you know, repeatedly checking one's physical reactions, analyzing memories, comparing their reactions to adults versus children, searching the internet, avoiding children, mentally reviewing encounters,

• 27:34Speaker 02

  repeatedly seeking reassurance that they are not, in fact, a pedophile. All of these are part of the picture.

• 27:40Speaker 01

  And in P-O-C-D, the sexual thoughts are generally ego-dystonic, right? "I don't want this, this horrifies me, why did I think that? Does having this thought mean I'm secretly attracted to children?"

• 27:50Speaker 02

  Yes, that seems to be the case. With pedophilic disorder, the attraction itself is more likely to be experienced as ego-sentonic, but usually just in the narrow sense that it is genuinely arousing for people who suffer from this. The person can still be deeply ashamed, distressed, morally opposed to acting on this stuff, and wish that they did not have this attraction in the first place. So, this is very complicated. But, look, obviously, Dr. Margolis cannot diagnose you, but she did say that there are three qualities in your story that are consistent with P-O-C-D. One is the shame, although, again, shame can exist in both disorders. The other is the distress, although that's also mentioned in the DSM under pedophilic disorder.

• 28:32Speaker 02

  And the avoidance strategies, the whole staying away from children thing. Dr. Margolis said that all three are consistent with what she has seen with P-O-C-D.

• 28:42Speaker 01

  Although, to be fair, she also said it wasn't clear from the letter whether those feelings are more consistent with a P-O-C-D process or a pedophilic disorder process.

• 28:50Speaker 02

  Correct, again, very complex, very idiosyncratic. But we just put this on the table so you have as much information as possible. And if this turns out to be an OCD subtype, that's going to be a very different diagnosis, and it would imply a very different treatment, which is why Dr. Margolis felt confident saying, "You need a thorough assessment by a therapist." And she actually felt that this is quite urgent, given your fear that someday you might stray, the fear of getting involved with a person with kids, and of course, the suicidality.

• 29:19Speaker 01

  Honestly, Gabe, the suicidal ideation, even if it's kind of theoretical, that's the most worrisome part to me right now. The shame is doing more damage to him than this behavior that he hasn't even engaged in and, according to him, will probably never engage in.

• 29:32Speaker 02

  I agree, yeah, you really cannot afford to sleep on this.

• 29:35Speaker 01

  No, it sounds to me like you're torturing yourself by making willpower your safety system here instead of letting a therapist help you work through this in a real systematic way.

• 29:44Speaker 02

  So, I know you're afraid to talk to someone, and I get it, we all get it. But Dr. Margolis told us something that was very reassuring, which is nonspecific thoughts alone without action, plan, intent, preparation, and an identifiable victim. They don't generally meet any reporting criteria for a therapist because like, what would there be to report? A report is to protect a victim, right? If there's no victim or potential victim, there's probably nothing to report.

• 30:12Speaker 01

  And that's especially true if you go to a clinician who's familiar with these disorders. I mean, how could they specialize in treating people? The first thing they did was drop a dime on them. It does, you know, it just doesn't make sense.

• 30:21Speaker 02

  There might be some nuances here, like if you worked as, I don't know, a kindergarten teacher, maybe that would be a different calculus, but even then there would still be no intent to harm and no history of actually harming a child. So Dr. Margolis said it would still probably be unlikely that an agency would even take a report.

• 30:38Speaker 01

  Also, if you were consuming CSM, that's also a different story. That's a federal crime and a therapist might have to report that to the authorities. But you also said you're not doing that either.

• 30:48Speaker 02

  We should recognize though, there are some states in the U.S. where the duty to protect analysis is broader than say California's.

• 30:56Speaker 01

  Yes, and laws change over time, et cetera, et cetera. We're not your lawyer.

• 30:59Speaker 02

  But in all likelihood, anything you shared with a therapist would probably only encourage them to ask you more questions, to understand you better, and then determine the actual risk. But based on what you've shared with us here in this letter, Dr. Margolis was quite confident that none of this is strictly speaking reportable. So in her view, all of this makes it quite safe for you to disclose. As Jordan said, a therapist who specializes in this area would be very nonjudgmental about this kind of disclosure. For example, Dr. Margolis actually told us that she has worked with people who have P O C D and she knows how incredibly distressing it is and she feels very deeply for you. And even if you do have pedophilic disorder, she still has compassion for you. So there's that.

• 31:40Speaker 01

  That compassion, like we were saying before, it can live alongside wanting to make sure a patient doesn't act on these thoughts. So this should all be very encouraging news. Now, there's one big caveat to this, of course, which is that there are some bad dumb therapists out there. Dr. Margolis said she's heard stories about clinicians who misunderstand the law. They don't have a good grasp of reporting guidelines. They get carried away, they jump the gun, and yeah, they make the wrong call and that sucks. So her recommendation would be find a clinician who has solid training, ideally somebody who specializes in paraphilia, pedophilic disorder, OCD, P O C D, et cetera. So you don't end up working with some yahoo who's been in practice for six months and has some janky online degree and didn't bother to read the reporting guidelines and immediately just freaks out and fills out a report for no reason, instead of focusing

• 32:25Speaker 01

  on treating you. If you go to somebody who specializes in say, pedophilic disorder, I imagine they would know how to assess and diagnose correctly. And if they can't, I would of course, hope that they would refer you to a real specialist.

• 32:37Speaker 02

  And listen, about the distance from your home, if you can't find somebody near you, I would rather you find someone who specializes in this stuff and just see them virtually. I'm guessing you're trying to go in person because you're concerned about privacy, like what if Zoom is going to record me or something like that? But if you are, Dr. Margolis wanted to remind you again, that there is nothing in your letter that is reportable. Also, quick side note about privacy with online therapy, and this is not just for you, my friend, but for everyone listening. My understanding is that you can generally have high confidence, maybe not absolute confidence, but high confidence that your therapy sessions are private on Zoom. Assuming of course, that your therapist is using Zoom in a HIPAA compliant way. I read up on this a little bit because I was curious about it myself and I do take

• 33:21Speaker 02

  this with a grain of salt in this day and age, but it does seem legit. Zoom does not create and retain a copy of the conversation on its servers unless the host records the meeting, but that is a feature that the host has to initiate.

• 33:33Speaker 01

  Right, and it warns you when you do that because my trainer records, I don't know why he records our sessions, but it says this call is being recorded or recording in progress.

• 33:40Speaker 02

  What's that about?

• 33:41Speaker 01

  I don't know, man. I really have no clue. I think he's trying to train an AI or he just keeps the file around so it proves that we actually have the session on the date. So you can't be like, I didn't do that. I don't need, why'd you charge me? I really don't know, but it automatically does that. Who knows? I should ask.

• 33:55Speaker 02

  Be amazing if you found out your trainer had some paraphilia that you didn't know about, but okay.

• 34:00Speaker 01

  He's putting all of my training sessions on OnlyFans for people who like to watch chubby, middle aged men do pushups or attempt to do pushups.

• 34:06Speaker 02

  I missed your calling, bro.

• 34:08Speaker 01

  There's a, look, there's a difference between transmitting a conversation and storing it. So when you have a Zoom meeting, your audio and video, it does have to pass through Zoom's infrastructure while the call is happening, but that doesn't mean that Zoom is making a permanent recording of that conversation.

• 34:21Speaker 02

  And they offer end to end encryption, which by the way, you have to manually enable. That helps.

• 34:26Speaker 01

  Although of course Zoom does retain metadata and diagnostic information about meetings, who's participating, what their setup is, usage data, stuff like that.

• 34:34Speaker 02

  So that's what they say anyway. I want to believe them because I also do online therapy and I think I mostly do believe them, although to be fair.

• 34:41Speaker 01

  I know you do online therapy. I have all the sessions here in a folder.

• 34:43Speaker 02

  Oh, cool. Right next to your burpees.

• 34:45Speaker 01

  Right.

• 34:45Speaker 02

  Look, I don't know. To be fair, Zoom has had a couple of big security dustups since 2020, but apparently they've gotten a lot better since. I don't know, guys. This is what I'm reading online and it seems encouraging, but nothing is perfect. But you know, there are also several other softwares that clinicians use to like manage records and appointments and billing and notes and all of that. Those are all apparently HIPAA compliant too. But anyway, the bigger question for patient privacy is whether recording, transcription or AI meeting features are enabled in Zoom because obviously then you're generating additional records, which I believe are also protected by the law, but need to be actually well managed by the provider. So if that's what you're concerned about, it's totally fair to ask your therapist, are you using a HIPAA compliant version of Zoom with what's called a business associate agreement?

• 35:30Speaker 02

  That's Zoom's healthcare compliant configuration.

• 35:34Speaker 01

  Okay, so that actually exists. We're not just speculating that that exists.

• 35:36Speaker 02

  That's a real thing. Yes.

• 35:38Speaker 01

  Okay, good. That's good.

• 35:39Speaker 02

  And that creates a handful of practical protections for patients. So you could also ask, are sessions ever recorded or transcribed? Are any AI note taking or transcription tools enabled? I would hope their answers to those questions would be yes, no, and no, and hopefully that puts you at ease. I just wanted to spell that out because it's been on my mind lately too. And sorry for how dull that aside was. This was like, you know, this is like the safety drill when you first get on a cruise ship, like the dudes, everyone's like, yeah, we get it. Life jackets, emergency alarm.

• 36:07Speaker 01

  Where's the buffet?

• 36:07Speaker 02

  Can we hit the open bar and get absolutely schwasted now? But this privacy stuff is actually quite important. So yeah, I just wanted to share that.

• 36:14Speaker 01

  Now, I'm glad you did, especially if this is what's standing in the way of people seeking out help or getting therapy remotely. So look, we were all moved by this one line in your letter. I want to understand why my brain works the way it does. This why, this insight you have into your situation, it's powerful because if these urges come from some childhood trauma or some past experience, understanding that is obviously going to be key. Processing these events is really important, but in Dr. Margolis's experience, that's only half the battle. The other half is the behavioral piece, how to stop fantasizing about this stuff, not harming yourself if you get overwhelmed, trusting yourself to be around children and not hurt them, the general rewiring of the brain you described, that's where the rubber meets the road.

• 36:57Speaker 01

  If this turns out to be P O C D, this behavioral piece could be achieved through some kind of exposure therapy. For example, graduated exposures, like, I don't know, spending more time with children over time with the guidance and input of a therapist who will help you learn how to do that effectively and safely. If it turns out to be paraphilia, like pedophilic disorder, then I'm guessing the interventions will probably look different and not put you around kids. I don't know.

• 37:20Speaker 02

  To be transparent, Dr. Margolis has not done any of her own research on this issue, but after consulting with her colleague and reading up a bit, she had one last practical recommendation for you. I know you were asking for things outside of therapy, so here's one. And it was, after you get your assessment, if this is not an OCD related diagnosis, then it is important in her view, for you to stop engaging in any fantasies about children while masturbating because it reinforces those pathways in the brain. So instead, many therapists would advise a person to practice masturbating to other fantasies or ethically produced pornography to help the brain create new pathways. Because as we know, those neural pathways, those grooves, they do get deeper the more you do something.

• 38:03Speaker 02

  So there's another behavioral intervention that could help. But again, great news that you don't view any illegal material. That is probably making all of this much easier. In addition, of course, to being the legally and ethically correct thing to do.

• 38:16Speaker 01

  I would also look into other resources for people struggling with paraphilias, P O C D, et cetera. One organization we heard about is called ASAP International. You can easily find your way to many more by searching online, help lines, books, communities, support groups, directories of experts. All of these would be great compliments to psychotherapy. So please look into that. Again, I really appreciate your openness and diligence in seeking out help. I'm so sorry that you've struggled with this for so long, but I am very glad you wrote in. I hope we've been able to make it doable for you to find the support that you need and frankly deserve. And who knows, maybe in time, your relationship with these thoughts and with yourself, with other people in your life, they might start to look very, very different, which I'm sure would be life changing for you.

• 38:59Speaker 01

  So go find that therapist and start talking, my friend, and good luck with this. This is, it's a burden. I do not, no one listening to this envies this burden, but you can do it, man. We're all rooting for you. Big thanks to Dr. Margolis for her wisdom and advice. Dr. Margolis is seeing patients in Los Angeles and virtually in a HIPAA compliant way throughout California. You can learn more about her and her approach at DrAaronMargolis.com. You know what you can grab without catching a felony? A great deal on the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back.

• 39:32Speaker 00

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• 40:01Speaker 01

  Thank you so much for listening. All the deals, discounts and ways to support the show are searchable and clickable on the website at jordanharbinger.com/deals. Thank you for supporting those who support the show. Now, back to Feedback Friday.

• 40:14Speaker 01

  Okay, what's next?

• 40:15Speaker 02

  Okay, this next one is a response to the letter we took on episode 1365 from the woman who wants her husband to plan a date night or a vacation for them and take care of all of the logistics. You remember this one?

• 40:27Speaker 01

  Ah, yeah, the guy who works 80 to 90 hours a week at his business and will just not pick up the queue and plan literally anything.

• 40:33Speaker 02

  That's right. So, her dilemma was, "If he cannot listen and do this thing for me, I feel unloved", in her words, right? "But I don't know if I should keep fighting for this thing I want, or if I just need to like, accept that my husband is not wired this way and just does not get it."

• 40:46Speaker 01

  Man, yeah, that's a tough one. I kept thinking about that one for a few days. Anybody who's married knows how tricky that particular question was or is.

• 40:54Speaker 02

  This story sparked a lot of debate in our subreddit and in our inbox. It was fascinating, man.

• 40:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was eating some popcorn while I scrolled. It got intense in there and people were like, "Two guys who don't understand, will never understand women." And I was like, "Well, okay, I mean, that hits a little close to home. Did you have to go there?"

• 41:09Speaker 02

  This topic is possibly more controversial than pedophilia.

• 41:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. By the way, our subreddit's a super fun place to pop off about the show. If there was an episode you liked, an episode you didn't like, you want to debate gender, politics and marital obligations with strangers on the internet, you can find that type of activity over on the Jordan Harbinger subreddit.

• 41:27Speaker 02

  A lot of you, men and women, had very passionate takes about all of this. Some of you felt our friend is 100% in the right. Her loneliness is totally valid, also very common among mothers who raise children, and her husband just needs to listen and follow through to give her this connection that she's craving, that she deserves. Some of you felt she was, I don't know, somewhat narrowly equating this one act, planning a date or a vacation with love, and she needed to stop outsourcing this experience that she's wanting entirely to her husband.

• 41:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, if memory serves, we went back and forth on that ourselves, did we not?

• 41:58Speaker 02

  So, this is what makes that story so interesting to me, that they are both probably right, and they're both probably missing something, or at least have the opportunity to look at each other and this situation in some new ways. And so, how does a couple, especially a longtime couple, navigate a disconnect like this?

• 42:15Speaker 01

  Oof, the $64,000 question, indeed.

• 42:17Speaker 02

  So, on that note, I wanted to read one of our listeners' responses to that segment. And we got several of these, but I thought this was a particularly insightful one. It also happens to come from a woman, so I think it might help correct for any bias Jordan and I might have had when we were reading that story.

• 42:32Speaker 01

  Awesome. Can't wait to hear how we were clueless dude bros in that segment. I can, well, I'm, actually, I'm genuinely curious to hear this.

• 42:38Speaker 02

  "Hi, Jordan and Gabe. This is about the letter writer from episode 1365, whose husband works 80 to 90 hours a week and who wants more effort from him on planning some shared activities. What struck me most from her letter was her remark that she feels, quote, 'lonely in her marriage', unquote. She said that things like vacations and date nights only happen if she plans them, and that she would feel more loved if her husband took more initiative and planned a trip and told her all she had to do was show up. You guys wondered whether she was being rigid in equating love with that one specific thing, and perhaps she is. But I think it's more likely that she concretized her request into him planning a trip while maybe she's trying to describe what many partners are frustrated by, being the one

• 43:23Speaker 02

  half of a couple who carries all the emotional labor of their shared family life. It seems to be a fairly common pattern, hopefully changing with each generation, that when one member of a couple earns the income, that becomes their only job and role in the family. One person works many hours, earns the income, the other person does everything else. This goes beyond the obvious and already overwhelming housework and child rearing. It is a thousand little additional things, from being the secretary, like, "Hey, can you call the..." fill in the blank about a billing error, to being the one who keeps track of things, like, "Hey, where did I put my insert misplaced item here?", to being

• 44:06Speaker 02

  the problem solver, "I need you to fill in the blank, get my shirts from the cleaner, attend an important corporate event, etc." No one thing in itself is a problem, and much of it may be done willingly, but you add them all up, and it is exhausting. And as the writer expressed, lonely.

• 44:24Speaker 01

  Okay, fair point. I do agree with you, but also hustling 80 to 90 hours a week and giving yourself a myocardial infarction down at your chandelier factory or whatever, so your kids can afford private school, also exhausting.

• 44:37Speaker 02

  Okay, so now we are recapitulating the men and women not knowing who has it harder thing, which is gonna get us into more hot water.

• 44:43Speaker 01

  Yes, but isn't it possible they both have it hard, just in different ways?

• 44:47Speaker 02

  Of course, yeah.

• 44:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know if it needs to be a contest, although, as I said in the show, I suspect my man is staying either at the office away from home deliberately for 90 hours a week, or is wildly inefficient or micromanaging of everything going on in the business in ways that are completely unnecessary.

• 45:03Speaker 02

  Yes, and I'm also just remembering that we spent quite a bit of time talking about maybe some of the things he needs to look at.

• 45:08Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 45:09Speaker 02

  And maybe how that would help solve their problem. But look, I'm not siding completely with the husband in that story. I don't really view it that way, but it's interesting. Something does tell me that if we could talk to him, he might say that he feels pretty lonely to work in that much.

• 45:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, solo business owner, working that hard to provide for his family. Like I said, I actually think he should not be doing that, but I'm sure that that's a lonely position sometimes.

• 45:31Speaker 02

  The better question is, are they really listening to each other? You know, how do they show up for each other? How do they communicate their challenges and their love for each other?

• 45:39Speaker 01

  The date night or the vacation she wants, this is a proxy, right? It's a proxy for a feeling or experience that she's not getting from him or elsewhere.

• 45:47Speaker 02

  Yes, and so our friend goes on, "Writer, I hear you. You are not crazy. You are not unreasonable for wanting a partnership in your marriage, and you are certainly not alone. It is not easy to shift this stark division of roles, as it has become quite the norm and ingrained across at least several generations."

• 46:06Speaker 01

  Powerful words. Somewhere out there, Gloria Steinem just leaned back and lit up a cigarette.

• 46:13Speaker 02

  She goes on, "A few ideas. See if you can talk with your husband about it in these terms, that you value him as a partner, are happy to do many of these things for your family, but when all of them end up on your plate, it becomes exhausting. So, are there one or two he could take on?"

• 46:29Speaker 01

  Nice pitch. I like that approach, based on what she shared. I don't know if that guy's gonna go for it, though. I mean, he won't even plan a date night for her. Is he really gonna start picking the kids up from Little League and go shopping for school supplies when he needs to be down at the old chandelier depot calling customers till 9:00 PM? I don't know.

• 46:46Speaker 02

  Of all the jobs you could have picked, I don't know why that one's so good.

• 46:48Speaker 01

  You know why it's fresh in my mind? Have you seen Backrooms?

• 46:51Speaker 02

  No.

• 46:52Speaker 01

  It's a horror movie. I'm sure you've heard of it.

• 46:53Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 46:54Speaker 01

  The guy runs a furniture store, and I just couldn't remember furniture store, and I remember seeing a random chandelier in there, so that's exactly, this is the deep thoughts that go on to, that are the ingredients of this podcast.

• 47:07Speaker 02

  No, but I love it. I love imagining the husband like sweating under the lights and just being, "I gotta move more units."

• 47:12Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 47:12Speaker 02

  More ceiling units. No, it's a real, yeah, I'm with you. Good choice. She goes on, "Perhaps a few sessions with a couples counselor to help your husband understand what you need."

• 47:21Speaker 01

  100% in agreement with that, yes. Something tells me they've tried that before, but, you know, who knows? Do it again, maybe.

• 47:28Speaker 02

  "And if you figure out some solutions, start blogging about them for the many other people in your shoes. Wishing for you to be heard and responded to, my friend. Signed, identified with a listener who's groaning because what she's really feeling is lonely, and that feeling is only growing because of these tasks her husband is not owning."

• 47:48Speaker 01

  Okay, some solid ideas in there. I agree with all of them in principle.

• 47:51Speaker 02

  Especially the couples counseling idea. I'm with you 100% Jordan. Their situation is an ideal one to bring to a professional, because I do think like just the listening has broken down. Also, an extremely common situation for so many couples, so.

• 48:04Speaker 01

  Totally, man. They've been married such a long time, not communicating as well as they could, kind of lost sight of each other, not understanding each other's feelings and needs. Yeah, you know what's funny, Gabriel? I was thinking about this the other day. I've only been married, I don't know, what has it been? It's been eight or so years. I should probably get a handle on that. Anyway, I've been married for almost a decade.

• 48:22Speaker 02

  You know who does know that number?

• 48:23Speaker 01

  The five, yeah, the amazing sponsors.

• 48:25Speaker 02

  The person doing all the emotional labor in your marriage.

• 48:27Speaker 01

  Oh, I thought it was the amazing sponsors who support this show. Dang it, see, I even got that wrong.

• 48:31Speaker 02

  And that's the problem.

• 48:32Speaker 01

  All right. What you find is that like, when you first get married, right, blah, blah, blah, no kids most of the time, and then you have this kid situation where you're raising kids and maybe your communication goes way, way down, and maybe there's a lot of other, like, he's working super hard, they need all this money, and she needs to be home all the time, and the kids are demanding all that attention. It's hard to snap out of that phase, because when our kids were really little, they needed a lot of attention. Now they're in school, they still need a lot of attention, but it's not the same amount. And me and Jen were just kind of like, "Yeah, they don't need the same amount of attention, so we have extra bandwidth. You have to rededicate that to your partner. Otherwise, you're just like, 'Great, now I can work harder, and I can stay later and do that.'" And it's like, you really have to focus on rededicating that to your partner when you're in a completely different phase than like falling in love and getting married.

• 49:17Speaker 01

  It's not easy to do that. It's not natural in many ways for us to do that. I shouldn't say natural. It's not automatic for most of us to do that. So, yeah, I can understand how this happens, and I can understand how it happens in com- Compounds over whatever 20 years as opposed to eight.

• 49:33Speaker 02

  And how it can produce this kind of like, I'm alone feeling. So I think this insight that she feels lonely, that was obvious, very obvious from the original letter, right? But I think it's the most important part of this letter, just appreciating the feeling.

• 49:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, again, I totally agree. But didn't we talk about that in our response? How her loneliness is valid and there are a few things she could do to increase the chances of reducing that loneliness?

• 49:54Speaker 02

  We did, yes, yes.

• 49:56Speaker 01

  Both can be true.

• 49:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think we were trying to shift her out of that binary. But what this letter is making me wonder is by trying to help her get this need of hers met in a new way, which to me implies that the need is fair, right? We might have a little bit glossed over something even more fundamental, which is just like, yeah, what does it feel like to be you? And is this basic feeling valid? What I'm still struggling with is, yes, of course it's valid to feel lonely if you're alone a lot, especially in a marriage where kind of one of the big ideas is that you're not supposed to feel too alone.

• 50:26Speaker 01

  Theoretically, yeah.

• 50:27Speaker 02

  Theoretically, but what you do with that feeling and how you work with that problem, at some point, that has to become the question, right? I think that's the more fruitful question, anyway.

• 50:35Speaker 01

  But that's why we were pitching those ideas for how she could talk to her husband or make it easier for him to plan something, because otherwise, what are we just gonna say? Your feeling is valid, your husband's wrong, the end.

• 50:44Speaker 02

  Right.

• 50:45Speaker 01

  I mean, maybe that's one answer, maybe that's true to some degree, but I'm not sure how far that's gonna get her.

• 50:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's exactly what I'm grappling with. And our friend here is doing something similar, giving her pitches, but maybe less of the you need to revisit the story you're creating around this problem variety and more of the here's another way to communicate it to your husband variety.

• 51:04Speaker 01

  And I fully agree that they should be communicating and listening way more, but I feel like she tried that and he's just not getting the message. And we don't know how she tried it, we don't know how she expresses herself.

• 51:14Speaker 02

  We don't know if she's not making herself clear, or if he truly is unwilling to hear her or do something about it.

• 51:20Speaker 01

  The eternal question, another super fun part about marriage, but this is why you go to couples therapy, it's a wise investment. But honestly, Gabe, I'm still not convinced that this is 100% her fault for being rigid in this vacation planning thing, or that it's 100% her husband's fault for neglecting her. I think there's a dance that's happening here, together and separately, and a whole dynamic between them that we were not privy to.

• 51:43Speaker 02

  There was so much more I wanted to know, and a ton of history too between them, I'm sure, so.

• 51:47Speaker 01

  That's part of what I found a little frustrating about that letter, just knowing that whatever's going on between them is so much more complicated than just, you know, he won't listen, or I need this thing.

• 51:55Speaker 02

  I think they have the opportunity to go very deep in couples therapy. If her husband can carve out an hour away from the chandelier factory, we'll see about that.

• 52:02Speaker 01

  Ha, big if.

• 52:03Speaker 02

  Big if, big if true. So I have to share one last thing. While I was thinking about this new letter we just read, I happened to come across another banger of a quote by that guy, Adam Phillips, the author I mentioned a few weeks ago. He's a British psychotherapist and an essayist. I've been reading him a lot lately, he's a really, really good writer. And in his book on kindness, which I have not read yet, I just read excerpts of it online, he apparently says loneliness is the inevitable cost of looking after ourselves.

• 52:33Speaker 01

  Ooh, yeah, that hits.

• 52:35Speaker 02

  To be clear, I can't quite tell if he means that as a good thing or a bad thing, maybe both. I'm guessing that he thinks it's a virtue to look after yourself, but I just found that idea very powerful in light of this listener's story, because she feels lonely for a lot of reasons, right? And her way out of that loneliness seems to be to have her husband plan something for them all on his own in exactly the way she described. But I think the advice behind the advice we were trying to give her was, yeah, you deserve that recognition, you deserve that love, but you can also take a little bit better care of yourself here, for example, by making it that much easier for your husband to give you these experiences that you say you want. And so from that perspective, I'm not so sure that loneliness is the worst thing she

• 53:20Speaker 02

  could experience if it's the loneliness born from appropriately looking after herself, which means specifically not outsourcing all of her happiness, her entire sense of love and validation, to her husband when he does these things she wants. You know, without pinning the fulfillment of that entire wish only on him.

• 53:40Speaker 01

  You're making a good point. It's like, her husband isn't irrelevant to why she's lonely, but she's ultimately responsible for what she does with her loneliness.

• 53:48Speaker 02

  Nailed it, yes. And that's kind of true of all relationships, I feel, right?

• 53:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, anyway, we could talk about this forever, but I think this is a nice place to put it down for now. So thank you for chiming in, my friend, and everyone else who popped off in the subreddit, and more good thoughts and good wishes to the original listener who wrote in. We're rooting for you, we're rooting for you guys. Only good loneliness from here on out, only, only the fun kind of loneliness. By the way, you can reach us, [email protected]. Please keep your emails concise, try to use descriptive subject lines, that makes our job a lot easier. If you're wondering when to give up on your entrepreneurial dreams, your mother-in-law's become an extreme hoarder and is driving the family away, or you're debating whether to stay with a traumatized, paranoid, dysregulated spouse who refuses to be medicated, whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up at [email protected]. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous.

• 54:37Speaker 01

  You know what's definitely worth spending 80 to 90 hours a week with? The amazing sponsors that support this show. We'll be right back.

• 54:47Speaker 01

  By the way, if you haven't signed up yet, come check out our newsletter, We Bit Wiser. It's a bite-sized gem from us to you, delivered to your inbox on many Wednesdays. If you want to keep up with the wisdom from our show and apply it to your life, it's a two-minute read, sign up at jordanharbinger.com/news.

• 55:03Speaker 01

  Okay, what's next?

• 55:04Speaker 02

  Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I'm a long-term wellness professional with a background in Oriental medicine and nearly 30 years vegan, with a sophisticated understanding of what the body needs and what it costs us when we ignore it. I'm also a woman who watched her father, brother, and mother all die of cardiovascular disease. So when I tell you that my partner of 20 years is on four medications that his own PCP acknowledged he would not need with a Mediterranean diet and consistent, moderate exercise, you'll understand why I think about this almost every day.

• 55:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, I can imagine, that's gotta be tough to watch.

• 55:43Speaker 02

  He told me his goal was to get off the medications and lose the weight. That was over two years ago.

• 55:49Speaker 01

  Right, right, my goal is to lose the weight, it just has to happen magically. I am very familiar, sadly.

• 55:54Speaker 02

  Since then, he's gained rather than lost, and poured his energy into a series of online income projects, the latest of which he let go of after five months when it didn't produce, while his health has remained completely unaddressed. He is under significant financial stress, and I believe he has genuinely given up on his body, possibly without even realizing it. When I raised the issue, he says he's quote unquote, "just old." I don't believe that. I believe he's been abducted. Here's what I mean by that. Three of his four medications are known to alter the microbiome, which is increasingly understood as the seat of personality, mood, and motivation.

• 56:36Speaker 02

  His taste receptors have been so bludgeoned over time that he requires hyper-palatable food, that's food engineered with specific combinations of fat, sugar, sodium, or carbohydrates that strongly activate the brain's reward system. And he cannot access the pleasure of simple, whole food, the very thing that would begin to restore him.

• 56:57Speaker 01

  The timing of this is impeccable, because during the break, I went and got a Funyun. Do you know what that is?

• 57:02Speaker 02

  Of course.

• 57:03Speaker 01

  There was some Funyuns on our kitchen island, and I was like, I didn't grow up with these, and I was like, what are these, what do these things taste like? And it is a fake, super crunchy, super duper salty, and I can only imagine fried and trans fatty, fake onion.

• 57:20Speaker 02

  This husband's favorite snack, for sure.

• 57:22Speaker 01

  I ate one and I was like, yep, I'm good for Q3. I'm, I don't need another one until the holidays.

• 57:29Speaker 02

  You're disqualifying yourself from offering advice to this poor woman who's trying to save her husband.

• 57:34Speaker 01

  I know, but oh my gosh, I get it, it was like way too much flavor at once. And I was like, who, why would you want to do this yourself? Man, so, but look, this, I'm a guy who loves Cheetos, I don't really have a lot of room to talk here, but I've learned a decent amount about the microbiome from doing the show. I would not say I have a sophisticated understanding of it personally, but I know people talk about how it's the second brain or whatever, candidly, I don't buy that our mood and personality reside there. I'm sure our gut influences a lot of things, but that's very different than things living in the gut that are your personality. There are a lot of misconceptions about the gut biome, especially in wellness circles. For example, people love to talk about how, you know, 90% of the body's serotonin is produced by these special cells lining the intestine.

• 58:18Speaker 01

  That is true, but that serotonin does not cross the blood-brain barrier, your brain makes its own serotonin separately.

• 58:24Speaker 02

  Ah, I always wondered about that, interesting. And obviously mood is also still created by the brain, right? Like, that hasn't changed.

• 58:31Speaker 01

  Correct. If it's not, well, how do SSRIs work? Cause they go to your stomach? I mean, come on, I digress. Medical professionals have backed up these points, I'm not just speculating here, but the point is the gut is important. I'm sure it's profoundly affected by diet, like everything else in the body. But believing he's been abducted by his medications or Big Pharma, look, I get what you're getting at, I don't know if I can go in for that kind of thing. However, that's not even super relevant to your question, I suppose. This thing about whole foods being blunted by hyper-palatable foods, that-

• 59:00Speaker 02

  That is very real.

• 59:02Speaker 01

  Clearly, that is a real thing, and this is one of the main plagues of the West, especially in America, the cause of so much obesity and disease and poor mood. And it's scary, it's actually crazy how if you eat enough Cheez-Its and Cheetos and french fries and Oreos and stuff, your body, and I'm speaking from personal experience here, your body learns to crave that garbage, and it really does lose its taste for lettuce and strawberries and guacamole and sweet potatoes and stuff. It's almost like you're traumatizing your taste buds or something.

• 59:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, orbito-frontal Tachytrauma or something like that. It's almost like you have to heal and retrain your brain to enjoy what it is supposed to enjoy naturally and not what it has been given artificially. Yeah.

• 59:38Speaker 01

  To me, this is one aspect of our low key dystopia, our food situation. Obviously, it's worse in certain places. Anyway, carry on.

• 59:45Speaker 02

  While I know this clinically, I cannot convey it to him personally. It's as though I'm screaming, discipline equals freedom, but he can't hear it. He has become, in my view, another casualty of conventional allopathic medicine, a system that manages symptoms and creates dependencies rather than restoring the person underneath.

• 1:00:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, look, I'm not a medical conspiracy theorist or a super hippie, but you're not wrong about some of this. And it's, yeah, it is scary to think about. It's scary to watch.

• 1:00:13Speaker 02

  Here's what makes this hard. I love him. Full stop.

• 1:00:16Speaker 01

  Thank you. That's our go to catchphrase. Let's normalize full stop. Remember those one star reviews where the people thought we made that up?

• 1:00:22Speaker 02

  He carried me through the most tumultuous years of my life. This relationship has irreplaceable value. And yet, on the darkest days, I question whether watching him recede is more painful than if he weren't in my life at all. I'm not proud of that thought, but it's honest. Still, I'm not interested in leaving. I'm interested in finding a way to make him feel genuinely seen, heard, and appreciated, while somehow motivating him to break what I can only describe as an addictive orientation toward medication as the solution.

• 1:00:56Speaker 01

  That's very compassionate of you, especially after years of this.

• 1:00:59Speaker 02

  Yes, but what kind of compassion, Jordan? Which one? Arseny's sitting, listening to this episode going, I know which one. I'm right in. Let us know. Which one does she need to get through to him? I have the knowledge, the supplements, the support. What I don't have is the key to reaching someone who is defeated, financially ashamed, and convinced that solving poverty solves everything else. That's a whole new variable in this story, Jordan.

• 1:01:23Speaker 01

  That's a different show, but yeah, that is a whole new variable. There's a lot of people in that situation.

• 1:01:28Speaker 02

  I think this is all related. I'm excited to get into this. So she wraps up, how do I love him well through this without losing myself or my attraction to him in the process? And how do I help someone reclaim themselves when they don't yet know that they've been taken? Signed, my husband's resistant and captured by the system. That's trying to convince him that his problems, you can't fix them, but I need to assist him with the help of my wisdom and not just dismiss him or endlessly contradict him.

• 1:02:01Speaker 01

  You know that other advice shows just use like waiting as the name, right? They

• 1:02:05Speaker 02

  I'm not sure what you're getting at.

• 1:02:07Speaker 01

  Sleepless in Seattle. Remember that famously, they're three words long, maximum, kinda?

• 1:02:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. What do you hate? Innovation? Are you complaining?

• 1:02:14Speaker 01

  But this is a tough question, though, man. Just to abruptly change the subject.

• 1:02:18Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:02:18Speaker 01

  So first of all, I'm very sorry you guys are going through this. This would be hard for any spouse to watch, and it must be torture when you're a vegan wellness practitioner who watched her entire nuclear family die of cardiovascular disease. My goodness. Like I said, the fact that you don't want to ditch your husband, you want to make him feel heard and supported, that is amazing, and it says a lot about you. I'm not sure that I'd be as patient or as generous, if I'm being honest. I'm obviously also very sorry for him. It sounds like he's really going through it in a variety of ways. And it's such a tough cycle because when you're struggling in life, it's really easy to neglect and damage your body. But when you neglect and damage your body, you struggle more and it's really, it gets hard to change gears. It's very tough.

• 1:03:00Speaker 01

  Gabe, what is your read on what this guy's going through? Like, what's the root here? Cause she's mentioned he's under financial stress. Okay. There's this series of side hustles that fizzled slash he gave up on at least one of them before it could take off. But this must have started even earlier than that.

• 1:03:14Speaker 02

  She's not telling us his whole history, but I assume that's the case. Whatever the cause is, it sounds to me like this guy has reached a level of almost like nihilism when it comes to his body and his health, just like, what's the point? Why does it even matter? I just want calories. I just want taste. What can I even do about this health stuff? It's too hard, so I'm not gonna try.

• 1:03:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, so he's just given up.

• 1:03:34Speaker 02

  But then it's also hard to give up on something you don't even realize is important in the first place.

• 1:03:39Speaker 01

  Or maybe he's just straight up refusing to confront how serious this is in the first place.

• 1:03:43Speaker 02

  I suspect on some level, he knows it's serious, right? And his body, he must feel not great, right? Although maybe he's forgotten what good feels like, if he ever was well. So he kinda knows, even if he's not fully conscious of it. But I think this kind of nihilism, whether it's about physical health or financial health or relationships or whatever, this persistent indifference, I think usually has a few strands. One strand is, it's just too hard, man. It's just too daunting. And so I'm going to choose on some level to not care about it because then I don't have to face it.

• 1:04:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, I could totally see that.

• 1:04:16Speaker 02

  Another strand might be that that response contains some interesting information, including potentially a message for his wife, maybe some kind of protest against the difficulty of getting healthy. Kinda like how we talk about with depression sometimes.

• 1:04:30Speaker 01

  The protest being, I don't wanna, I'm resisting because it's hard because I know it's so important.

• 1:04:35Speaker 02

  What's interesting about that is I think that confirms that deep down, he knows that this matters and he feels unequal to the task, which might be the level on which his wife can reach him, but we'll talk about that in a second. It's a really good question, though. What is at the root of nihilism? Which is by definition, a kind of nothingness, right? It's a lack of meaning. If there is a root to that, I think it must have something to do with the deep desire to have meaning, to connect to something, to feel good, which we are wired for, as she knows, and which we require to stay alive.

• 1:05:07Speaker 01

  Yes, and which is obviously the reality when it comes to something like our health, our physical body, which is non-negotiable.

• 1:05:13Speaker 02

  This is not religion. This is not politics. Either your heart works well or it doesn't work well. Either your blood pressure is through the roof or it's under control.

• 1:05:21Speaker 01

  Either you're hitting Mickey D's drive through and sneaking Oreos in the car or you're not. To not care about your health, your body, your functioning, mental and physical, this isn't just another fair choice. It's a failure to appreciate the inherent importance of your life, isn't it?

• 1:05:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it's a failure of self-interest, you know, like his interest. It's also a failure of self-love. I kinda hate to use that word, but that's what it is. Maybe framing it as a failure is not super helpful. Here, it's more like he's lost his connection with something very precious, right? His body, himself, and he doesn't even know how great it would be if he recovered it. And that's the bind that she's in.

• 1:05:57Speaker 01

  I also want to throw out one other theory here, which is sometimes people give up on themselves, whether it's with health or fitness or dating or whatever, not because they don't care, but because they've hit their head against the wall so many damn times and failed that they've generated enough evidence, accurate or not, that there's just no point in continuing to try. And so at a certain point, your brain just goes, okay, not worth it. No, thanks.

• 1:06:19Speaker 02

  So the nihilism might be born from some legitimate data.

• 1:06:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, look, it's one of the reasons I got a trainer, right? Cause I've lifted weights in college. I lifted it in high school. I lifted it in middle school. I started really early. And then when I got older, I kept lifting weights, but not nearly as often, right? And not nearly as hard because I was older and I had other stuff to do. And it was like, oh, this isn't working anymore. I guess I'm just gonna be overweight like a lot of people. And then I hired my friend who ran the training company, gave me a trainer. And the trainer was like, no, no, no, there's tons of fit people that lift weights really hard. I just need to like make you do it. And that worked for me. I realize not everybody can just hire a trainer and that's not even the solution for the problem here especially. But it's very tough to get rid of all years of data that you've accumulated and gathered

• 1:07:05Speaker 01

  through lived experience. It's really tough to turn that around sometimes.

• 1:07:09Speaker 02

  So more compassion then for him potentially.

• 1:07:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, but okay, whatever the reason, she wants to reach her husband. I'm trying to imagine what kind of script would reach him when being on four different medications and his wife telling him he's gonna die like her family and having doctors tell him, hey, you don't really need these. You could turn yourself around with some basic practices. When those things didn't work, what's the magic set of words that will, right? It's tough, but a moment ago, you touched on this layer of protest, this layer of, I know on some level this is crucial, but I'm too ill-equipped, too overwhelmed to really begin. Maybe she can meet him there by saying basically, honey, I've tried to talk to you many, many times and many different ways over the last few years about your health. I can see it's been harder for you to change your habits, to take a few steps towards some healthy shifts.

• 1:07:53Speaker 01

  As you know, this really freaks me out. I see you going down a very dangerous path and a totally avoidable path. You know that I've seen firsthand what these habits do to people. I'm watching it happen all over again with you, and I do not think this is gonna end well. You've heard it from me. You've heard it from your doctors. I have to assume on some level you know that. And the question I'm asking myself is, how can I reach this person I love? How can I support this person who supported me in so many ways? So we can live the longest, healthiest, happiest lives possible? Maybe you literally say, I'm gonna be honest. I'm out of moves here. I'm very sad. I'm pretty scared. I feel a little hurt. You're not taking care of yourself in these very basic ways. I'm honestly not sure what it's gonna take to make you wake up and make some changes,

• 1:08:38Speaker 01

  but I'm still here. I love you. I want to see you thrive. So I have just a few questions for you. First, do you understand how serious this is? Do you see the path that you're going down? Second, what do you feel is standing in your way to making some changes? Please talk to me. I'm here. That's how I would reopen this conversation. It's gonna be a tough one, though. Don't do it when he's checking his email or whatever.

• 1:09:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, but that's a really nice script. I would offer one more question for him, which is, how are you feeling about your life in general these days? What does this whole health conversation bring up for you? Because I think the way he takes care of his body, that is just a symptom of something else. So the answer probably won't originate with the medicine or the food stuff, interestingly.

• 1:09:20Speaker 01

  That is a good point, but yeah, this needs to be a conversation, not a lecture. A lecture he's gonna sit through, he's gonna nod along, he might even agree with you, but on some level, he's Just thinking, all right, this will be over soon. Not a long until I can go back to the man cave and pound some chicken nuggets. But a conversation, one that you respectfully force by asking good questions and gently holding his feet to the fire, that has the potential to shift things.

• 1:09:44Speaker 02

  Okay, so I agree with everything we're saying. And I'm going to say what I often say, which is she cannot make him care about this if he doesn't want to.

• 1:09:52Speaker 01

  Right, she can only engage him in a process that'll hopefully lead him to care.

• 1:09:56Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:09:56Speaker 01

  To tap back into that innate caring, that hope that he seems to have lost, which is one thing working in their favor. I think the moment this guy makes one or two changes, starts eating salads for dinner, starts going for walks once a day, he's immediately gonna feel better, he's gonna lose a few pounds, he's gonna have more energy and be thinking clearer. After a couple of months, he's gonna get off a medication or two and he's gonna be like, wow, holy crap, this actually works, I feel a lot better, I cannot believe I forgot how good this feels. That's what happened to me, right? I ended up losing weight and I was like, wow, I can get up off the floor, I'm flexible, my hip pain went away, my knee pain went away. How he feels is really gonna be the best evidence for her argument and the best motivation for him to continue. But there's that chicken/egg situation, right?

• 1:10:39Speaker 01

  Where it's like, well, okay, which comes first, the motivation or the action?

• 1:10:42Speaker 02

  Action. 95% of the time, I think it's action.

• 1:10:44Speaker 01

  I agree, but her husband has a lot of inertia to overcome, a lot of beliefs and a lot of narratives and a lot of patterns. So there might be a component here of, I need you to trust me on this, I need you to give this a real try and think of it as an experiment, do it for a month, let's see what happens, then you tell me if it's worth continuing. That wouldn't be my go-to strategy, I think the first conversation is the right one. But the second approach, it might come in handy if it gets to the point where he's like, oh, you're right, I know this is important, I'm just overwhelmed, I'm depressed, I'm stressed, I don't know where to begin. Then maybe you become his, you know, motivational coach and give him a push start.

• 1:11:19Speaker 02

  So I know we're going pretty hard in the paint on this one, but I'm just thinking this whole side hustle, online income thing is really interesting because neglecting his health might be a response to his money stress. Or losing money slash giving up on things before he can succeed, that might be a symptom of the health stuff, or both of them are symptoms of a deeper issue, which might be that lack of meaning we were talking about, you know, poor values around his health, around his obligations to his wife, perhaps a tendency to go into denial, to retreat into his own reality, whether it's believing that these side hustles will immediately generate more money, or that solving his poverty will solve everything else, or believing that he's not actually hurting himself, he's just quote-unquote old.

• 1:12:04Speaker 02

  Or it might be a struggle to commit and stick with things, which is, once again, usually a failure of relationship with self.

• 1:12:12Speaker 01

  Yep, so interesting. I agree that the money stuff and the health stuff are connected. That would be a powerful thing for her to help him hone in on, on this conversation.

• 1:12:21Speaker 02

  I just wonder if maybe that's the lever that she's looking for, if simply changing his behavior doesn't work. But the thing is, it's gonna be a deep dig, he has to be willing to go there.

• 1:12:29Speaker 01

  And he'd still have to do something about it.

• 1:12:31Speaker 02

  And he'd still have to do something about it. And also, now I'm sitting here wondering, like, what happens if he doesn't? Where does this go?

• 1:12:37Speaker 01

  If he doesn't, yeah, then we're in a different conversation, which is acceptance, grief, and boundaries. For example, she might have to accept that she can't save her husband here and learn to live with a spouse who is not taking care of his health and cope with the tough feelings that come with that. Or she might decide that she can't tell him to stop eating certain things or to exercise, but she can say, I'm not willing to live with somebody who's gonna slowly willingly kill themselves over the next 20 years. And to be clear, I am not advising her to say that, I'm saying, these are the moves that she explores if she gets nowhere with her husband on the first steps. I don't know if she needs to go there yet, I think there's still hope. So that's how you love him well through this process, by supporting him without enabling

• 1:13:19Speaker 01

  him, by challenging him without alienating him and by empathizing with him without treating him with kid gloves. It's a tricky line to walk.

• 1:13:27Speaker 02

  Yes, and I also suspect that that's how you do this, without losing yourself in the process. And when you say that, I think you mean, without compromising on my values or somehow denying my feelings or my interests in my husband's health. I think that depends on how honest you are with him. It's probably also how you can maximize the chances that you won't lose your attraction to him along the way, because that attraction does not just depend on his physical health, right? It depends on your intimacy, your connection, your communication, all of which require you to speak up and be honest, and all of which require him to listen and hopefully to grow.

• 1:14:02Speaker 01

  Yes, and if he finally responds to all this, the attraction is probably gonna grow. If he doesn't, again, you cross that bridge when you get there.

• 1:14:08Speaker 02

  That's right. And then you make a vegan picnic on the other side, that he won't touch.

• 1:14:12Speaker 01

  A whole food buffet for one. Your husband is lucky to have you looking out for him, I really do hope he can receive your love and support, and we're rooting for both of you guys. Good luck. You know, supporting the show's sponsors will dramatically improve your mood and longevity. It's science. We'll be right back.

• 1:14:30Speaker 01

  If you liked this episode of Feedback Friday and found our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, that is, take a moment and support our amazing sponsors, they're all searchable and clickable on the website at jordanharbinger.com/deals. If that doesn't work, something's going wrong, can't find a code, email us, [email protected]. We're happy to dig up codes for you. It is that important that you support those who support the show.

• 1:14:55Speaker 01

  All right, now for the recommendation of the week.

• 1:14:58Speaker 05

  I am addicted to Litville.

• 1:15:00Speaker 02

  My recommendation of the week, bit of a throwback now because it's officially come to an end, I believe, but it very much lives on, on the internet, and I hope will for a long, long time. It is a podcast called My Dad Wrote a Porno. Jordan, have you ever heard of this show?

• 1:15:13Speaker 01

  Yes, it was really popular and I also remember you telling me about it, like, five years ago.

• 1:15:18Speaker 02

  I've already told you about it, that's hilarious. This is one of the funniest podcasts I have ever listened, funniest things in general I've ever consumed. The premise is amazing. So basically, the podcast started when one of the hosts, Jamie Morton, found out that his very low-key, very respectable, retired Irish father had written an absolutely unhinged and terrible series of erotic novels that he called Belinda Blingt. I think he was like 70 years older, older or so. And he wrote it under a pen name, Rocky Flintstone, which is so ridiculous. And I think if I remember correctly, the story is, he went home for Christmas one year and his dad was like, I wrote something. And he went into the other room to read the first chapter and he was like, this is so

• 1:16:03Speaker 02

  spectacularly, bewilderingly terrible, but somehow is also a work of accidental genius. So in a stroke of genius of his own, this guy Jamie got together with two of his close friends, this guy James, this woman Allison, for years, they would get together and read one chapter of this book aloud at a time and just mercilessly dissect his dad's very weird understanding of sex and anatomy and the business world, because the book takes place in the corporate world. Just like his understanding of basic human behavior is so bizarre and it's so funny. And every single line, every single detail, every single creative choice in these books is just brilliant. But when you add in the host's banter and commentary, it really does become high art.

• 1:16:47Speaker 02

  So what I love most about this show, and the reason it climbed into people's hearts, I think, is the chemistry among the three hosts, they're just magic together, they regularly get into laughing fits and they have these insane running jokes for years and they built out this increasingly elaborate mythology around the Belinda Blingt universe. And it's just truly some of the finest British banter and comedy I've ever heard. So if you need something completely ridiculous and joyful in your life, highly recommend starting from episode one. I think you're gonna die when you hear this show, it's so good. I don't often recommend other podcasts, and not just because we don't want to create competition for ourselves, it's just that there are not that many great ones out there that just grab you, but this one did. And I, still, when I need a laugh, I'll go back and listen to an old episode, so I hope you enjoy it, we'll link to it in the show notes.

• 1:17:32Speaker 01

  All right, what's next?

• 1:17:33Speaker 02

  Dear Jordan and Gabe, over the last few years, I've turned into the person I dreamed I could be as a kid. I'm great at my job, I do woodworking and rock climbing as hobbies, I have a dog who is my heart and soul, friends I love, and a positive outlook on life.

• 1:17:50Speaker 01

  Amazing, good opening, well done, friend.

• 1:17:52Speaker 02

  But the next step is a biggie. I've always dreamed of buying a plot of land, planting my own forest, building my own humble wood cabin, and growing my own food. Soon I will inherit a significant enough fund to start looking at a deposit for buying a small plot of land in the north of England. I could go with the safe option and just buy an already-built bungalow in a little town, but I realized if I don't do this now, the chance will pass me by. And this is something I know I'll spend the rest of my life wishing I had the balls to do. So I'm doing what humans have done since time immemorial.

• 1:18:28Speaker 01

  Writing into a podcast for advice?

• 1:18:30Speaker 02

  Yes, the way of our forefathers.

• 1:18:32Speaker 01

  That's right. So what she means is committing to building her own house and growing her own food? Crazy.

• 1:18:37Speaker 02

  I thought she meant take a huge leap of faith, but I guess it's both. So she goes on. There are times it's gonna suck so bad I'll wanna give up. I'll doubt that I can do it and it'll go wrong, and I'm certain I'll find the courage to stay in it and see it through on my own. But how do you prepare yourself for the really big life commitments or adventures, especially when they're risky? Do you have any advice on how to balance leaning into the risk, but not totally skipping down the delulu lane to fulfill a dream? Signed, train my brain to constrain and stay sane, or give it free rein, go a little insane, and build my domain on delulu lane.

• 1:19:18Speaker 01

  Great questions, one of my favorite topics. How do you balance risk with realism, exuberance with responsibility?

• 1:19:25Speaker 02

  Reminds me of the guy from a few weeks ago who is coding those apps and wondering if he might become the next Warren Buffett.

• 1:19:30Speaker 01

  Yes, the therapy app and trading platform guy, 100% yes. One of us, maybe it was you, said something about how all artists and entrepreneurs are a little delulu, but then you have to bring the delulu down to earth by testing it against reality, and that's the salulu. So first of all, congratulations on becoming the person you dreamed of becoming as a kid. That's awesome. Building this full and successful life that brings you joy, that is a huge accomplishment. You should be really proud. Second, exciting goal you've got here. I don't know how you're coming into the money. If somebody passed away, sorry for your loss, but what a blessing to have the funds to realize this dream of yours. It sounds super cool and rewarding. But yeah, definitely a challenge, building your own home, planting your own trees, growing your own food.

• 1:20:12Speaker 01

  It's really a huge undertaking, but also when society collapses, you're going to be in a great position. That's a reward for being self-sufficient, you know, not dying first when the apocalypse goes down.

• 1:20:22Speaker 02

  And I assume because we're about to help you make it happen, there will be a room in your house for us when shit goes down? Just putting that out there?

• 1:20:28Speaker 01

  I should just build that into the disclaimer this week. Remember, I'm a lawyer, but not your lawyer. Also, when the supply chain collapses, we get quartering rights.

• 1:20:35Speaker 02

  That's right. And the beds must be made up with bowl and branch sheets, just saying.

• 1:20:39Speaker 01

  Seems reasonable to me. I love that in this apocalypse scenario, our sponsors are still just churning out home staples. I hope they do because we're going to keep doing the show from your country bunker. Anyway, I really appreciate that you're going into this with eyes wide open. You know it's going to suck and it's going to get hard. You know you're going to have to stick with it through the parts that suck.

• 1:20:57Speaker 02

  Dude, I honestly think that's half the battle right there and just knowing it's going to come.

• 1:21:00Speaker 01

  Just knowing that that is definitely going to happen. And it doesn't mean you've made a mistake or that this isn't your true dream or that you should give up, but that you'll have to go through these periods of suck to realize the vision. So you're already ahead of the game. And when that happens, I think it'll be important for you to remember why you're doing this, to keep your purpose alive. So you'll want to keep going. One way to do that is to write it down, read it back to yourself, keep journaling about it. Another is to talk to a few close friends about it. Text them or invite them to lunch when you're struggling, have them mirror back to you why you're doing this. Another is just to like actively visualize the dream, really indulge your imagination the way children do. When you walk around the property while you're working on it, picture the cabin and the trees and the garden.

• 1:21:45Speaker 02

  Our wing of the house, you know?

• 1:21:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:47Speaker 02

  Just saying.

• 1:21:47Speaker 01

  Our wing with two king sized beds and the aforementioned bowl and branch sheets that we'll sleep in like British soldiers in the American colonies. That'll get you through.

• 1:21:54Speaker 02

  The vision of two presumptuous podcasters scream talking into their microphones while you try to enjoy your net old tea in the forest in peace is hilarious.

• 1:22:02Speaker 01

  Sounds like a party to me, man. The other thing that helps, surround yourself with good people who can help you make this happen. I assume you will not literally be building the house on your own. You need an architect and a builder, even if you chip in, unless you're secretly a licensed carpenter or something and that you really can do this, but I'm pretty sure this is not a solo job. But also invite friends and family to visit the property along the way, make plans with them on the property that you can look forward to, maybe hire an experienced gardener to teach you how to grow food, find a YouTube channel or a Discord community that's focused on home renovation and landscaping and to share your story with them. Make the vision real by including other people in it. The team is everything.

• 1:22:42Speaker 02

  Great advice. I also think, and I'm about to contradict Jordan a little bit, but hear me out. I also think it's sometimes helpful to not think about your purpose when things get hard.

• 1:22:52Speaker 01

  How dare you undermine me on a question related to the apocalypse cabin that I brought you into.

• 1:22:56Speaker 02

  Oh, you brought, I chose the letter, bro. What are you talking about? If I didn't choose the letter, we wouldn't even, we wouldn't even be in the forest.

• 1:23:01Speaker 01

  You chose the letter, but I'm the one that's getting us into the cabin, obviously.

• 1:23:05Speaker 02

  You're the one getting us the bowl and branch sheets.

• 1:23:07Speaker 01

  That's right. You wouldn't have even thought of that.

• 1:23:09Speaker 02

  Look, if you're going to be like this, I would rather ride out the apocalypse elsewhere. Okay.

• 1:23:13Speaker 01

  Fine.

• 1:23:13Speaker 02

  But here's what I'm getting at. It's really easy to go from the builder just told me the project has been setback three months. You know, I can't figure out how to plant zucchini or whatever. I have no idea how to landscape a backyard to go from that kind of thinking to I'm not experienced enough, I'm not passionate enough, this dream is just pointless. That's when you're going to want to tap into your purpose again. And if you can, great. But sometimes knowing your why still isn't enough to make things easy, you know? Sometimes it's just a nice idea and it's not enough to overcome the challenges that you are facing today. So when that happens, I would say maybe stay micro, do not go macro, do not indulge the part of your brain that is going to go, is this even worthwhile? What was I thinking? Why did I try? What was my vision?

• 1:23:58Speaker 02

  You know it's worthwhile. You said this has been meaningful to you since you were a kid. You committed to this because it matters. So I find that sometimes the best thing you can do is just focus on the next task, you know? Plant a new row, you paint one more wall, you rake the driveway, call up a vendor, you order the gravel, whatever, whatever it is you have to do. And what I find over and over again is by delving back into the task at hand, instead of fixating on, you know, some abstract purpose, you create that meaning again and again. You remember why you are doing something by doing it and that sustains you.

• 1:24:32Speaker 01

  I actually fully agree with that, despite what I just said. There's something about action that reconnects you with purpose way better than, you know, endless reflecting. Cause at the end of the day, you still got to build a house, right? So just build the house. I would also remember that if things get hard, that's only going to make the end result more meaningful. I don't obviously wish you more problems than you need, but solving the problem is the journey. The problems make the purpose even stronger. And when it's done, you're going to look back at the struggle with fondness and it's going to make the cabin just so much sweeter. We've talked about this a bunch over the years, feeling miserable while pursuing something meaningful, it's not a sign that you are failing. It's just the cost of caring deeply about something difficult and then seeing it through.

• 1:25:12Speaker 02

  Yeah. Purpose does not equal happiness, never. Quite the opposite sometimes.

• 1:25:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, sometimes it can make you more unhappy, but that's only because you care actually, and it makes you sign up for bigger challenges.

• 1:25:24Speaker 02

  And by the way, about balancing embracing the risk and not becoming completely delulu, I trust that you're going to manage this project responsibly in a way where you're not going to get in over your head or put yourself at unnecessary risk. You will hire solid contractors, you will learn how to plant a forest and build a garden, and you'll make sure that you have enough money to cover the expenses and all of that.

• 1:25:44Speaker 01

  Yes, this is crucial. She needs to do her diligence on the people that she hires. My experience, cheap contractors, same with cheap lawyers, cheap equipment, cheap everything, it always ends up being the most expensive.

• 1:25:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, it really does. So obviously don't be delulu in that regard. That's just being reckless. Also be on top of all your practicals and the logistics, your permitting, your taxes, all of that. I imagine there's a kind of pie in the sky thinking that can lead people to neglect those details or just do them poorly because, you know, they're only focused on the big picture dream, but obviously you cannot get in trouble with, uh, what do you guys call it over there? Revenue and customs? I think that's what you call it, the IRS here.

• 1:26:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:24Speaker 02

  Or the permitting office or whatever, you know, whatever body you need to satisfy.

• 1:26:28Speaker 01

  Exactly. Also, she's about to get a small windfall, right? Psychologically, I find that that can create a feeling of wealth and security that can lead to less than ideal decisions and it puts a little more pressure on her to be successful. So when you're trying to decide when and where to spend money, a good question to ask yourself is, would you think it's as smart of a move if the money were coming in one paycheck at a time? In other words, how would you spend this money if you didn't have all of it in the bank at once? That's the diagnostic. But look, all of these mindsets and practices we're talking about, there are ways of making that delulu not delulu, you know? It's a little crazy in a good way. Buy a plot of land, build a cabin, grow a garden, create this life for yourself, especially your first time, but it's not insane totally.

• 1:27:13Speaker 01

  If you build a budget and you do your homework and you surround yourself with good people and you put in the work.

• 1:27:18Speaker 02

  Delulu plus drudgery. That's the formula. Delulery.

• 1:27:21Speaker 01

  Delulery, yes. So I love that you have this dream, my friend. I can hear how much it lights you up and it's inspiring. It really is. Tap into your delulery and you're going to be great. Oh, and Gabe's very particular about his English breakfast tea in the morning. So you need like a nice kettle, give it a little heft.

• 1:27:37Speaker 02

  Yes, please. And Jordan likes the room at exactly 68 degrees to sleep. So we're going to need that.

• 1:27:43Speaker 01

  I'm a REM princess. What can I say? After the apocalypse, I'm going to be the Duke of Deep Sleep over there in the UK. Don't forget to check out our episodes with Sean Hemian, the meth dealing Mormon on a redemption tour and our Skeptical Sunday on alphas. If you haven't done so yet, the best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network, the circle of people I know, like and trust. I'm teaching you how to build that for free in our six minute networking course. It's free, it's not schmoozy and it's on the Thinkific platform at sixminutenetworking.com. Dig the well before you get thirsty, folks. Build relationships before you need them. Show notes and transcripts are on the website, advertisers, deals, ways to support the show, also on the website at jordanharbinger.com/deals. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Gabe's on Insta at Gabriel Mizrahi.

• 1:28:28Speaker 01

  This show is created and association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tadisidlouskas, and of course Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own and I might be a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Consult a qualified professional before implementing anything you hear on the show. Dr. Margolis's input is general psychological information based on research and clinical experience. It's intended to be general and informational in nature, and it does not represent or indicate an established clinical or professional relationship with those inquiring for guidance. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn and we'll see you next time.