1384: Have You Lost Chance at Transatlantic Romance? | Feedback Friday

You found a profound love late and fast, then lost it to distance and duty. Did you try everything, or let fear end it? It's Feedback Friday! And in case you didn't already know it, Jordan Harbinger (@JordanHarbinger https://twitter.com/JordanHarbinger) and Gabriel Mizrahi (@GabeMizrahi https://twitter.com/GabeMizrahi) banter and take your comments and questions for Feedback Friday right here every week! If you want us to answer your question, register your feedback, or tell your story on one of our upcoming weekly Feedback Friday episodes, drop us a line at [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. Now let's dive in! Full show notes and resources can be found here: jordanharbinger.com/1384 https://jordanharbinger.com/1384 On This Week's Feedback Friday: At 42, a British dad with a young daughter, you fell hard and fast for an incredible American woman — hours of video calls, a magical weekend in London, whole futures sketched out. Then her dream job landed and her aging parents' pull won out, and she ended it. You cut off all contact. Did fear decide too soon? Your daughter arrived a couple months ago, and so did a familiar problem: your overbearing mother, who kisses the baby after you begged her not to, drops by unannounced, and insists "there are no boundaries." A book finally named the childhood wound behind it. Now how do you set limits that actually stick? You became a committed Christian and joined a tiny, tight-knit church — half of them one family — but the sexual double entendres, lap-sitting, and playful kissing leave you uneasy in a house of worship. Leadership just says show grace. Is this a culture clash, or a sign your values no longer fit? Recommendation of the Week: No Country for Old Men — Jordan rewatched the Coen brothers' Cormac McCarthy adaptation and was floored all over again by their restraint, ambiguity, and mastery. His broader rec is basically the whole Coen catalog, from Fargo to Inside Llewyn Davis. These dudes rarely miss. At 35, single, an embryologist with a shrimp tank and a stable career, you took a trip to Costa Rica and cried on the plane home, never feeling more at home anywhere. Now you're eyeing visas, a possible PhD, a whole new life. Is it too late, or are you just trading comfort for something braver? Have any questions, comments, or stories you'd like to share with us? Drop us a line at [email protected] mailto:[email protected]! Connect with Jordan on Twitter at @JordanHarbinger https://twitter.com/JordanHarbinger and Instagram at @jordanharbinger https://www.instagram.com/jordanharbinger. Connect with Gabriel on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi https://twitter.com/GabeMizrahi and Instagram @gabrielmizrahi https://www.instagram.com/gabrielmizrahi/. And if you're still game to support us, please leave a review here https://itunes.apple.com/podcast/id1344999619?mt=2&ls=1 — even one sentence helps! Sign up for Six-Minute Networking https://jordanharbinger.com/course — our free networking and relationship development mini course — at jordanharbinger.com/course https://jordanharbinger.com/course! Subscribe to our once-a-week Wee Bit Wiser https://www.jordanharbinger.com/news/ newsletter today and start filling your Wednesdays with wisdom! Do you even Reddit, bro? Join us at r/JordanHarbinger https://www.reddit.com/r/JordanHarbinger/! This Episode Is Brought To You By Our Fine Sponsors https://www.jordanharbinger.com/deals/: Article: Visit article.com/jordan for $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more https://article.com/jordanXero: Learn more: xero.com https://www.xero.com/Chime: Open an account in two minutes: chime.com/jhs https://www.chime.com/jhsAG1: Welcome kit: drinkag1.com/jordan https://drinkag1.com/jordanSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 1:03Speaker 01

  Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, my nomadic TO, helping me chart your new Camino, Gabriel Mizrahi.

• 1:13Speaker 02

  That's a good one. You are not the only uncle now, TO.

• 1:16Speaker 01

  I love how they use that there. Doesn't it just kind of means like dude, right? But it's like unc, but maybe not like boomer. You're not calling someone a boomer with that necessarily.

• 1:25Speaker 02

  It literally means uncle, but it's like dude or man. Exactly.

• 1:28Speaker 01

  I feel like unc is almost like unc doesn't know how to use the iPad at McDonald's.

• 1:32Speaker 02

  Correct. Yeah, that's a different thing.

• 1:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, and they're usually right about that. Anyway, the irony now is that you are actually a TO and I'm not. That's how that works.

• 1:42Speaker 02

  You're Papa, I'm TO.

• 1:43Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:44Speaker 02

  Both uncle and dude, so we've got all the titles covered.

• 1:47Speaker 01

  In multiple languages, yes, getting on a hand. On the Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people. Our mission is to help you become a better-informed, more critical thinker. During the week, we have long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, mafia enforcers, generals, investigative journalists, astronauts, tech luminaries. This week, we had Ahmad Mostak, founder of Stability AI and Intelligent Internet, and the author of The Last Economy: A Guide to the Age of Intelligent Economics. Now, he talked about how AI is actually turning human intellect into an abundant commodity, and how that shift is cracking the old engines of work, money and personal meaning. He's got a blueprint for new systems that defend

• 2:28Speaker 01

  human agency at scale. Basically, a civilization-scale software update. Really interesting guy, actually. Usually when he's interviewed, the thumbnail is like, "All the jobs will be over in 500 days," but we actually took it a little bit more down-to-earth and less, made it less YouTube soundbite-y for the show here. We also had Dr. Chris Ryan, author of Civilized to Death: The Price of Progress. So you might know him as the co-author of the bestselling book Sex at Dawn. In Civilized to Death, Chris explores the ways in which progress has perverted the way that we live, how we eat, how we learn, how we feel, mate, parent, communicate, work, and even die. It's a great through-line for a ton of fascinating insight into our most essential human experiences. And we had a Skeptical Sunday last Sunday

• 3:10Speaker 01

  on the housing crisis. On Fridays, though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, play obnoxious soundbites, and keep up with Gabe's far-flung midlife crisis.

• 3:19Speaker 02

  Transition.

• 3:20Speaker 01

  Nice reframe there. Your midlife inquiry.

• 3:23Speaker 02

  That's right. It's not a crisis if it's a question mark, you know? I'm good. I'm good.

• 3:26Speaker 01

  There's some truth to that. I guess it depends on how many bad decisions you make, irreversible, bad, life-altering decisions that you make during this period of your life.

• 3:34Speaker 02

  It's, uh, it's all in the punctuation. If there's a weird Spanish question mark at the beginning of it, it's fine. You're good.

• 3:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, got it.

• 3:41Speaker 03

  Hello, listeners. Jase here. If you'd rather skip the story of Jordan's horrific flight home from China, trapped behind the most offensively smelling man he's ever encountered, you can buy yourself a first-class ticket and jump to timestamp 13 minutes. Enjoy the show.

• 3:58Speaker 02

  You're back from China.

• 3:59Speaker 01

  I am, and I gotta tell you, I saved this for you because I knew you'd like it. The plane ride home was an actual nightmare. I don't just mean window shades up at night nightmare for people making fun of me already on the subreddit.

• 4:10Speaker 02

  Oh, man. Why do you always have nightmare flights? You have a weird number of nightmare flights.

• 4:15Speaker 01

  I have a couple here and there, but they stand out so bad because they're really, really awful. I mean, I do go to places with different social norms, but okay, so here's what happened.

• 4:24Speaker 02

  That's a good way of putting it. That is true.

• 4:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, when I was in, when I was talking to ChatGPT about it, because I was asking certain questions, it was like, "You can't say that!" And I was like, "But what do you mean?" And it's like, I can, and then it dances around the real issue, you know? Like, I'm like, "Okay, just tell me how to do this."

• 4:39Speaker 02

  I'm so curious to know what you mean by that, but I love that AI is telling you that you need to be more PC.

• 4:45Speaker 01

  Be more woke. Yeah. AI is like, "You need to be more woke." And I'm like, "Tell me what really happened then." And it's like, "Well," and it like just does this frickin' jig around the actual issue itself, and then comes around and goes like, "Maybe the thing you said earlier was truthful that I'm not going to repeat here because I don't want you to vote me."

• 5:01Speaker 02

  Okay, well, now I, now I really need to know what happened because I'm so confused.

• 5:04Speaker 01

  So there was this, we're sitting in, I didn't buy business class seats because they're like 13 grand, and I just can't enjoy anything that's that expensive. I never will be able to, sorry. There's this guy in the front of, in front of me, and he smelled so bad that Jen and I could smell him from our seats, and other people could too. And I called the flight attendant over and I was like, "Hey, can you?" And the flight attendant walks up, and it was so bad, she walked up and went, "Oh, how can I?" And then just immediately went to the galley, got a mask and came back. And I was like, "That's what I mean." And she, both the man and the woman flight attendant were like, "Oh, oh, God. Um, I think I know what you mean. Uh, let me just," because I didn't even have to finish the sentence. I was just, I pointed and they were like, "No, we got it."

• 5:45Speaker 02

  Say no more. I'm gonna grab my N95 and we'll circle back.

• 5:48Speaker 01

  Exactly. So this dude had not bathed in days, at least. I mean, it was unreal. I'm not talking about like, oh, he's been through airports and he's got a little bit of BO. I mean, this man woke up that day or the day before, got put on his dirtiest clothes, and went to the airport. This is not just a guy with unfortunate body odor. He went barefoot into the bathroom.

• 6:08Speaker 02

  Oh, wait, I feel like this, you've seen this before.

• 6:11Speaker 01

  Cheeto feet went in the bathroom barefoot. Or, oh, he went with socks on, but yeah.

• 6:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm having déjà vu. Déjà vu.

• 6:17Speaker 01

  So this is a guy, like, his hair was unwashed. And I was just like, you know what? Not everybody has the same hygiene standards, but this is Economy Plus. Like, these are the, you can afford to fly internationally from, this is Hong Kong, uh, which is a layover for many places, to San Francisco. Maybe you work there, maybe your family works there. You know, you have, you're familiar at least with Western sort of hygiene standards. And also, other people were like, ew, you know? So it was, fellow countrymen of this man were like, "Oh, my goodness."

• 6:47Speaker 02

  This is a crime against humanity.

• 6:49Speaker 01

  It was really bad. And so the flight attendant is like, "We can't move you. The cabin's totally full." But they sprayed essential oils all over the floor to make the cabin smell better, and they gave out masks.

• 6:59Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 7:00Speaker 01

  And I know that they probably can't do this, but they should. They needed to give homeboy a cloth and be like, "Go take a horse bath in the lavatory."

• 7:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:07Speaker 01

  Right? I know that's, speaking of not PC, I did not use that. That's, it sounds like a term you're not supposed to use anymore, but they should have gone, "Excuse me, you've been traveling a long time. Would you consider, like, I don't know, what's a polite way to say wipe your armpits down with this scented cloth?" Because it was just terrible. And even if your clothes stink, your clothes can smell, but you are the thing that's, the bacteria is alive in your armpits, right? So that's what's causing the majority of this.

• 7:33Speaker 02

  This is horrifying.

• 7:34Speaker 01

  It was so bad.

• 7:34Speaker 02

  Considering that that flight attendant on one of my recent flights told me that she couldn't even gently tap a passenger on the shoulder to get their attention, I don't think they can tell somebody to go to the lavatory and take a shower.

• 7:46Speaker 01

  No, they probably can't. So I was like, "I'll do it if you don't move me." And they were like, "Please don't." And I was like, "You know what? I don't want to be the one who gets in trouble for this." Plus, also, the guy was not, he wasn't rude or anything, so I was like, "I really don't want to embarrass this guy." So I was like, "Jen, are you okay? You're gonna wear a mask?" And then I was, finally, there was just nothing that they could do, because later on in the flight, I saw him wiping his face down and stuff with the cloth they give you, and I, and I saw him wipe under his shirt. It just didn't do anything.

• 8:14Speaker 02

  Maybe I'm now being unwoke and AI would yell at me, but like, when you go out in public and you're sharing space with other people, there are certain norms that you have to subscribe to. This is a very basic one. This is not okay. But you said, did you say he was traveling with his wife?

• 8:28Speaker 01

  He was. He was traveling with his wife. So we were like, "How does she deal with this? How does she not know?" And, you know, this culture, South Asia, they have arranged marriages a lot of the time. And I was just thinking, did they just pair you with him and your choice was be a spinster or homeless or marry this guy? Or like, do you just also stink? Or like, do you not notice it anymore because you live with them? I'm so confused.

• 8:49Speaker 02

  It's gotta be that, right? You just get used to it? I don't know. At what point do you say you, that you need to take a shower more? I'm a little flummoxed by this, I have to say.

• 8:57Speaker 01

  I was about to just be like, "You gotta go do this," but Jen was like, "Don't do it." And the flight attendant was like, "Please don't do it." And I'm thinking, he's not gonna get, he's not gonna punch me in the face, and if he does, I mean, he weighs like 98 pounds. I think it'll be fine.

• 9:10Speaker 02

  A fight in the middle of the flight at 30,000 feet?

• 9:13Speaker 01

  Maybe, but like, I'm not gonna fight the guy. I'm just gonna say, "Excuse me, you know, you've been traveling a long time. Would you consider wiping your armpits down with this?"

• 9:20Speaker 02

  Would you say that? Would you actually say that?

• 9:22Speaker 01

  I would say that. Come on, man. Somebody in this man's life needs to speak the truth to him. Obviously, nobody else is doing it.

• 9:27Speaker 02

  Wow, I don't know if I would.

• 9:29Speaker 01

  If he's like, too bad, then I'm like, "Oh, okay, so you're a jerk. Now it's at least on you I did what I could," right? Um, and then I'll tell the immigration agent that you're smuggling cocaine. No, I'm kidding. I don't know.

• 9:42Speaker 01

  I just, but at least you can try.

• 9:43Speaker 02

  You smell, you're black tar heroin bad. That's how bad.

• 9:46Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly. So I look over to the left, and like, all these Asian people from Hong Kong are just also grossed out and wearing masks. And this guy, this dude, this Asian dude, he just starts shaving in his seat.

• 9:59Speaker 02

  The same guy? Different guy.

• 10:00Speaker 01

  Different guy.

• 10:01Speaker 02

  A different guy started shaving in his like.

• 10:03Speaker 01

  Just started shaving in his seat. And I was like, I've never seen anyone do that. And the thing is, that would normally have been the standout thing that I led with. Like, I saw a guy shaving in his seat. This didn't even make, I was, I forgot all about that part, right? Because it was the least gross slash weird thing about the flight. It actually isn't gross. It was just weird, right? There's nothing gross about shaving. It's just doing it in your seat is quite a choice.

• 10:24Speaker 02

  It's slightly gross, but it was relativized by the vapors.

• 10:27Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 10:28Speaker 02

  Did he go electric or Mach 3?

• 10:30Speaker 01

  He went electric and you could, it was funny because there were like little bits. He was like wiping off of the tray table in his shirt.

• 10:36Speaker 02

  That's still gross, though.

• 10:38Speaker 01

  It was gross, yeah, but it wasn't disgusting. How's that?

• 10:42Speaker 02

  Rather that than the, uh, public health hazard in.

• 10:44Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 10:45Speaker 02

  Thirty seven three.

• 10:46Speaker 01

  So Cathay Pacific, they handled it so poorly. I mean, they were just complete wimps about telling them anything. We tried to move that we've, there were business class seats available. They were like, you can't have them even though they're empty. And I was like, I know this isn't a law. You're just being cheap. So I, I made the purser, which is like the head flight attendant. I made her file a report in her iPad and then I filed a report after we landed. And they're like, don't worry, we'll refund your wifi. I'm like, I don't care about that. It was included. You prolapsed assholes. I want something else because I had to sit in a locker, the bottom of this man's shoes for fourteen hours. I mean, what, you know, give me some miles.

• 11:22Speaker 02

  I love that they thought the wifi would be reparations.

• 11:25Speaker 01

  And ChatGPT was like, that's an absurd response. And I was like, that's the proper characterization of this. Correct. So that's why I'm putting them on blast. Cathay Pacific just handled this so poorly. And if anyone works there in any position, please reach out to me because this was handled so poorly. Spraying another bad smell over a man's BO because you don't want to move somebody to the open business class. I didn't, I even said, I won't even eat in the seats. Just get me out of here. You can give me the crappy food. I don't care. And they were like, we can't do that. And I'm like, you can, you just don't want to.

• 11:54Speaker 02

  This makes me a bit sad, though, because I love Cathay Pacific.

• 11:57Speaker 01

  You're supposed to love them. And if you fly business class, it's fantastic. But if you fly economy plus, they just don't give a shit about you. That much is clear.

• 12:04Speaker 02

  But even in economy, which I always fly, I always felt, I felt like they were incredible. Like, they make American Airlines look so bad. But maybe that's, those are two sides of the same coin because they're so kind and accommodating and nice on Cathay. And very well, they're very, um, dignified, right? Like, they, they're all, everyone's on their best behavior.

• 12:23Speaker 01

  But they were completely useless. I'd rather have somebody be rude to me, but actually solve the problem if I had to choose between the two. Like, if they said, you're a high maintenance prick, but go ahead and sit in business class, I could live with that. It was funny because it's, we were with all these people who clearly had done a layover from another place in South Asia. So I was asking ChatGPT, how do I avoid flights with these types of connections? And it was like, oh, that's, you can't generalize. And I'm like, I'm not generalizing. I'm not saying all people from South Asia smell bad and don't wash. I'm saying the likelihood of encountering somebody like this again goes way up if I sit on flights that have similar layovers. How do I route around this? And it was like, oh, I can help you do that.

• 13:05Speaker 01

  And then I was like, oh, okay. So as long as you don't mention the people or their hygiene standards, that's totally fine. But it, once you mention that, it's like, you're being racist. And it's like, no, I'm giving you an observation that happens to be true. And plenty of times, look, Cheeto Feet was, he was a white dude. But also, like, if I, they solved that problem, right? They made him put on his shoes by saying, your feet smell and other passengers are complaining.

• 13:26Speaker 02

  They did do that.

• 13:27Speaker 01

  Yes, they solved the problem.

• 13:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:29Speaker 01

  So if you're not going to solve the problem, I'm just not going to fly that route anymore. And like, I'm going to solve the problem in my way. And if that happens to offend ChatGPT, I couldn't care less.

• 13:39Speaker 02

  Unreal.

• 13:40Speaker 01

  Maybe I'm not woke enough, maybe. And Gabe, I found a, I found a pretty nice gift for you over there. I'm going to post it on the subreddit. So if those of you on the Jordan Harbinger subreddit, and those of you who aren't, you can go and see. I'm going to make a post with Gabe's gift. You'll see, it's quite apropos.

• 13:55Speaker 02

  What did you get me?

• 13:56Speaker 01

  It goes along with the show brand quite well, and I found it in like an alley market in Hong Kong.

• 14:00Speaker 02

  What? I'm so confused. What could it possibly be?

• 14:03Speaker 01

  You'll find out on the Jordan Harbinger subreddit. All right, Gabe, what's the first thing out of the mailbag?

• 14:08Speaker 02

  Dear Jordan and Gabe, I'm a forty-two-year-old British dad with a young daughter who lives in the UK. At the beginning of June, so just a couple of months ago, while on holiday in the US, I met an incredible thirty-eight-year-old woman. We'd been messaging for four or five days before our first date. And after I returned to the UK, we spoke on the phone almost every day, often for hours on video calls, while messaging constantly. It very quickly became obvious that this wasn't just a holiday romance. Although everything happened over the course of a couple of months, it never felt rushed. Because we lived on opposite sides of the Atlantic, we compressed a huge amount of emotional intimacy into a short period.

• 14:48Speaker 02

  We talked about everything, our families, careers, values, fears, children, and what we wanted our futures to look like.

• 14:56Speaker 01

  This is what I love about couples in their late thirties and forties. They're more mature and they ain't got no time to waste. Ain't nobody got time for that. It's straight to, do you want kids? Do you see yourself owning a cottage by a lake? What scares the bejesus out of you? I want to know it all now on FaceTime. Let's get this handled so we don't waste each other's time.

• 15:13Speaker 02

  Sometimes you get to know people faster this way.

• 15:15Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 15:16Speaker 02

  You can't see them.

• 15:16Speaker 01

  So if you date in person, which is obviously better for many reasons, but when you date in person, it's a, the normal relationship development. But if you're long distance, you're not spending time with friends. You're not snuggling. You're not watching movies. You're not hooking up. You are just talking, right? You were, that's all you're doing. Most of the intimacy available is of the emotional variety, for better or worse. So if you guys are a fit, you're really a fit and you know pretty quickly. And then you basically have to just make sure that you hook up several times or whatever you want to do, whatever floats your, whatever suits your morals, so that you can get that compatibility out of the way. And then you know at that point. Because you've compacted several years of normal people talking and doing things with each other

• 15:59Speaker 01

  into a lot of intimacy over the phone or over FaceTime.

• 16:02Speaker 02

  By the way, way to walk that back. That was very elegant. I see ChatGPT has trained you well.

• 16:06Speaker 01

  It has, yeah. Now, ChatGPT, there's, every time I ask it something, not every time. Most of it's technical questions, like how do I do something on Windows? Many of the times I ask ChatGPT, it's like, I would push back on and I'm like, okay, maybe. But here's the thing, I don't want this thing to change the way that I talk or think because I think that's annoying. Because it's obviously programmed to not get OpenAI sued. That's the prime objective, not to give me real information. So there's been many times where I'll ask it something that's very non-PC. And it's like, oh, that's terrible junk science, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, show me the studies. And then I'll make a new chat and I'll be like, give me a synopsis of the studies. And it shows me the non-PC conclusion that it was telling me wasn't true based on those studies. And I'm like, wait, wait, wait, are you lying to me?

• 16:50Speaker 01

  And it's like, no, no, no, I don't, I'm not lying. I'm just telling you there's different interpretations of this data. And I'm like, yeah, well, why didn't you give me both?

• 16:56Speaker 02

  I love the idea that you're like, what's this Excel shortcut for sorting and finding, doing a V look? Whoa, whoa, whoa, buddy. Slow down.

• 17:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, we don't use that word anymore.

• 17:05Speaker 02

  I'm not someone who spends hours on the phone to people. In fact, it's very unlike me. I've had relationships before, but I never felt so emotionally and intellectually aligned with someone. We could talk about serious life decisions one minute and then spend the next laughing at our shared geeky sense of humor. We encouraged each other's ambitions, challenged each other in healthy ways, and genuinely seemed to bring out the best in one another.

• 17:30Speaker 01

  Because this is Feedback Friday, I know this is about to go sideways, but I think we're all rooting for you guys so hard right now. You sound adorable.

• 17:36Speaker 02

  Just two weeks after our first date, she flew to London so we could spend a couple of days together. It was everything we'd hoped it would be. We hugged and kissed the moment we saw each other, laughed constantly, and everything felt effortless. I tracked down a cafe serving her favorite Spanish latte because she had mentioned how much she loved them, found an Italian restaurant because she loves Italy, and gave her a small personalized gift with a handwritten note. She loved the thought behind it all. Before she flew home, we'd already planned two more trips. I was due to visit her in Boston later in the summer, and she had another trip booked to the UK in October. We naturally started talking about what a future together might look like. One of the biggest topics was children. She'd always wanted to become a mom before she turned forty.

• 18:20Speaker 02

  She'd had some health challenges in the past that made her very aware that time wasn't something she had in abundance. So this wasn't just a preference, it was something she took very seriously. She even ended previous relationships because they weren't moving toward the future she wanted. She'd seen photos of my daughter, commented on how adorable she was, and seemed genuinely excited that I was already a father. I told her that I'd love to have more children, and if I met the right person, I felt ready to build that future rather than waiting years to see where life took us. Because of my daughter, I knew my future had to remain in the UK. That meant if we were going to make this work, she would eventually have to move here. We started researching immigration options and having honest conversations about what that might realistically involve.

• 19:05Speaker 02

  Around the same time, she was interviewing for what became her dream job at a major toy company. She was convinced she wouldn't get it and was incredibly hard on herself. I spent weeks encouraging her, reminding her what she had to offer, and telling her that any company would be lucky to have her. When she got the job, I was genuinely over the moon for her. Then, a few weeks later, she admitted she was struggling with the idea of moving.

• 19:29Speaker 01

  Oh, man, yeah.

• 19:31Speaker 02

  She said she'd be leaving behind her parents, friends, support network, and everything she'd ever known. We had an honest conversation, then spent another forty minutes laughing and reminiscing about our time in London. I came away thinking we'd handled a difficult conversation really well. She ended up finishing her previous job earlier than planned. And by coincidence, my daughter was away on holiday with her mom. So we brought my trip forward and spent several wonderful days together in Boston and Cape Cod. Then, everything changed. She told me she wasn't sure she would ever be able to move to the UK. Her parents were getting older, she just landed her dream job, and she couldn't imagine leaving her family and support network behind.

• 20:10Speaker 01

  Oh, man, that's, that's so tough. It's a lot to give up, though, man. I get it.

• 20:15Speaker 02

  The timing couldn't have been worse because I had planned to tell her I loved her that day. She sensed where I was going and gently stopped me, saying it was too soon.

• 20:24Speaker 01

  Hmm, interesting. Gabe, I gotta say, a connection this profound, all these ups and downs, best movie I've seen in months.

• 20:29Speaker 02

  I know, right? I'm like so in the pocket with them.

• 20:32Speaker 01

  Started off as a rom-com, now it's one of those heart-wrenching European movies, starring some guy from Ireland whose name you can't pronounce, but who's really good and probably has a scene where he punches a bathroom mirror or something.

• 20:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, for some reason, it's raining when this conversation happens.

• 20:45Speaker 01

  It's always raining, yeah, and they're outside. It's rainstorms all week in Cape Cod while life tears our two lovers asunder.

• 20:51Speaker 02

  Bro, I am legitimately sad right now. This is so sad.

• 20:54Speaker 01

  It is brutal. I mean, bro's about to pour his heart out to this woman he's fallen for, later in life, no less, when he didn't see it coming and she's like, no, please don't. I can't.

• 21:03Speaker 02

  I just became SVP of Marketing at Playmobil. The toys need me.

• 21:06Speaker 01

  It's not a job, it's a calling. Those little tracks aren't going to build themselves.

• 21:11Speaker 02

  Later that evening, overwhelmed by everything we discussed, I asked her if she still wanted to be with me. She quietly said she needed to sleep on it.

• 21:19Speaker 01

  Oh, that's a gut punch.

• 21:21Speaker 02

  The following day, she ended the relationship.

• 21:24Speaker 01

  Oh, man.

• 21:25Speaker 02

  She said she felt too great a duty towards her parents to leave the US.

• 21:29Speaker 01

  Man.

• 21:29Speaker 02

  I cried. I told her I loved her. I also told her that I couldn't ask her to leave her parents when I was saying that I couldn't leave my daughter.

• 21:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, fair point, although I hate to open this up.

• 21:41Speaker 02

  Different things.

• 21:41Speaker 01

  Two obligations that are very different, because his daughter, how old is she again?

• 21:46Speaker 02

  He didn't say. He just said she's young.

• 21:48Speaker 01

  Okay, so let's say she's between five years old and 18 years old, crucial years, okay? And her mom is in the UK, so legally, almost for sure, he can't just move her to the States. Not without mom's buy-in and daughter's willingness to go, and you're uprooting a young kid from their support network. That's different than two 80-year-old people.

• 22:07Speaker 02

  I hear you. Every family's different. Maybe she's super close with her parents. Maybe they have certain needs that only she can provide, but I agree with you.

• 22:13Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 22:13Speaker 02

  It is an interesting reason to not go through with this.

• 22:16Speaker 01

  I get it. I'm not saying it was the wrong choice, but she's 38 years old, her parents are 70s, 80s, whatever. I don't know, maybe they're 95 and they can't get around in their own, and she, anyway, she might have found the love of her life. It's just a curious decision to put her adult, independent parents first, but maybe she has reasons for that.

• 22:33Speaker 02

  If that's really the reason, let's get into that in a moment here. So he goes on. We both cried. Before saying goodbye, we realized we both deal with breakups in the same way. We both believe that when a relationship ends, it's kinder to cut off communication completely rather than drift into an ambiguous friendship. I told her that if she ever contacted me again, I'd probably assume she'd changed her mind and wanted to explore a future together. Because otherwise, I would expect us both to respect the boundary that we had set. Was this simply two people who cared deeply about each other but couldn't overcome responsibilities that neither of us should have been expected to abandon? Or did we let fear make the decision before we had exhausted every possible option?

• 23:15Speaker 02

  Was it healthy for us to cut contact completely, or would you have approached that differently? And finally, what am I missing? I know you're only hearing my side of the story. If I'm looking at this through rose-tinted glasses, giving myself too much credit, or overlooking something important, I would genuinely like you to tell me. I'm not looking for validation. I want an honest assessment, even if it stings.

• 23:38Speaker 01

  I appreciate that, man. Good question.

• 23:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, it says a lot about him. I also love that he included that. Signed, a heartbroken Brit, starting to sigh because the Atlantic Ocean has never felt so wide.

• 23:50Speaker 01

  Oh, bruh.

• 23:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:52Speaker 01

  The drama of this, what a ride these two have been on.

• 23:54Speaker 02

  Seriously, this is more complicated than the connect sets this lady is gonna be marketing in a couple of months.

• 24:00Speaker 01

  That's right, literally. So, whoa, first of all, for those of you playing the drinking game that you talked about on the subreddit, for those of you playing at home, here you go. I'm very sorry things played out this way. Did you see that on the subreddit? It's like anytime Jordan says, anytime Gabe says therapy, or anytime Jordan says, I'm very sorry things played out this way, and I'm like, you guys are gonna kill somebody.

• 24:18Speaker 02

  You're gonna need a liver transplant, transplant within six to 12 months.

• 24:21Speaker 01

  That's right. Like, this is not a game. This is serious business, because we say this stuff a lot, and it's made me painfully aware that, anyway. Once again, I'm very sorry things played out this way. Clunk, slam it. I can hear how excited you were about this person, how inspired and enlivened you were. And to have it end this way, even if it's for good reasons, it is just devastating, man. There's no other word for it. And I'm just very sorry that you're going through this. That said, despite all the grief, I do think it's pretty amazing that you found somebody you connected with this deeply at this stage of your life. And in such an unlikely way, you had these very honest and vulnerable conversations. You had the courage to consider some big life changes to make it work. I know it sucks that they didn't pan out, but this also says a lot about your capacity for a deep and serious relationship.

• 25:06Speaker 01

  Also, your clarity about your priorities and your commitments. I guess what I'm saying is, yes, this is all super sad, and this relationship brought a lot of joy into your life. It revealed a lot of great information about both of you, it sounds like. It gave you some new excitement and hope that these experiences are possible, and even if it doesn't feel this way now, I just, I think that's a huge win. So, was this simply two people who cared deeply about each other but couldn't overcome responsibilities that you guys just couldn't abandon? Sounds like it. You had your daughter, she had her important new dream job, and her parents, and her friends, and her home country. Based on what you shared, I think it's very possible that you two had a profound connection and that it still was not enough to overcome these obstacles.

• 25:50Speaker 01

  The reality is, this would have been a much bigger sacrifice for her than it was for you, and you know that, right? I think you know that. But that can be true, and there can still be more to the story. For starters, moving to another country to be with somebody, while theoretically doable, when it really comes down to making it happen, it's extremely intense, it's extremely daunting. The people who do take the leap, even when they're successful, they still deal with a lot of the stress and the grief and the sadness and the homesickness and tons of logistical challenges. Even in the best-case scenario, this kind of move is extremely challenging. And then, there are a lot of people, like this woman, who look at all of that, and they go, yeah, no, I can't do it.

• 26:31Speaker 01

  There's something really special here, but this is just too much. And so they don't. And, you know, I get it.

• 26:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, I get it too. It's also possible, and I'm about to wildly speculate here, I could be totally wrong, but I know he's curious about what he might be missing. It's possible that, deep down, even though you guys had strong feelings for each other, you guys were not entirely on the same page.

• 26:50Speaker 01

  That's where my mind went to, but I agree. Look, we truly don't know. Maybe your feelings were deeper and less complicated, maybe hers were more conflicted. Because the cost of letting herself feel those feelings was so great. I mean, maybe she was resisting it in a lot of places because it was a pain.

• 27:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, because if she lets herself go there, then it's like, well, maybe I do have to leave my family behind, maybe I do have to ask myself if this guy matters more to me than my career, all of that, yeah. It's also possible that you felt the exact same way about each other, but you have different stances on what to do with those feelings. You know, maybe her values are more oriented around family, stability, not taking a huge risk on someone without a lot more information. Maybe your values are more oriented around taking chances. It sounds like it, like you're saying, like, I, we don't need to wait around, I'm ready, let's do it. Or, you know, maybe your values are more compatible with accommodating a new person in your life and acting on your feelings. It's possible that you had very different lenses on the idea of creating a whole new life together.

• 27:47Speaker 02

  Although, again, I think she would be the one creating a whole new life. For you, it would, it sounds like it would mostly be the same life, plus this amazing new person, so it's simpler for you.

• 27:56Speaker 01

  I wanna be clear, it's impossible for us to know what's in her head and in her heart, but people are obviously complex, right? Sometimes they don't give the other person the full story. So we have to make room for these possibilities. But, since you might never know with 100% certainty what was going on for her, maybe the fairest conclusion to arrive at is she's just not your person, at least not now. And I know that it feels like she was perfect, but circumstances got in the way. Yeah, maybe they did, but the reality is, if she couldn't commit to moving to the UK to be with you, then it means something, somewhere, just wasn't aligned.

• 28:28Speaker 02

  And if things were not aligned, maybe she isn't his person, is what you're saying.

• 28:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, because if she were, I guess it would have aligned. I don't know, I realize it's kind of teleological, but you see what I'm getting at here, yeah?

• 28:38Speaker 02

  I find this question interesting. Did we let fear make the decision before we'd exhausted every possible option? So, a couple of things in here. One is, if there was fear in the mix, that might be kind of appropriate, no? I mean, she would be taking this huge leap, she would be giving up a lot, it's a lot of uncertainty, the fear might not be the full story, but who knows, maybe that was a feeling she had to listen to. The other thing is, we don't know if she was just afraid or if she had other legitimate reservations, but most importantly, and I guess this is my bigger question about all this. I wonder why breaking up and not talking anymore felt like the only real solution for the two of you.

• 29:13Speaker 01

  Hmm, well, she's saying, I'm not gonna move to the UK, and please don't tell me you love me, and he's like, I'm ready to have children with you, and I can't bear talking if we're not together. That's the end, isn't it? I mean.

• 29:23Speaker 02

  I'm not so sure about that, actually.

• 29:24Speaker 01

  Interesting.

• 29:25Speaker 02

  Look, if she's saying, I don't wanna be involved with you anymore, and neither of us can stand talking to each other if we can't be together, sure, okay. If that's what you want, that's how you feel, that's the end, that's okay. But they had this beautiful connection, they have a great time together, they shared a lot of goals and values. Assuming they were more or less on the same page emotionally, which, again, impossible to know for sure, but if his understanding is correct, I'm just wondering why they couldn't try maybe a different kind of relationship, whether it's continuing to date but with fewer expectations of each other, or not dating each other exclusively potentially, or just being friends for a little while, which I understand is tricky business. But why couldn't they have tried any of those things and then just seen what happens? Like, see how they feel about each other over a period of time?

• 30:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know. I guess it comes down to their capacity for that kind of relationship. Some people are just not cut out for it. I remember breaking up with women back in my 20s and 30s, and there was an interesting thing that I was like, oh, let's just be friends. And one girl was like, I don't wanna be friends, I wanna be your girlfriend. So she just didn't wanna talk to me anymore. And I was like, huh, I think I can respect that. And then I broke up with another girl, and she was like, well, we can still be friends. And I was like, no, no, I'm not really interested in that. And she was super offended, and I was like, look, we're breaking up, let's not pretend like I'm gonna go to your next party and like, not, I have no reason to do that. I'm not dating you, I'm not gonna start dating one of your friends, it's kind of a weird jerk thing to do, in a way, unless you're hooking us up.

• 30:51Speaker 01

  And you're probably not gonna do that, because I'm breaking up with you, so, like, no, I don't wanna be your friend, really, I don't. Like, we tried the romance thing, it didn't work, I'm not interested in the other thing. I don't know. Is that a dick move?

• 31:01Speaker 02

  Not necessarily, but I feel like it just really depend, you're right, it depends on the person. There's, this is a fascinating question, because this is the way I tend to be, but I've Everybody's different, right? But if you have this connection with somebody that is this profound, and if they work when they're not in the same place, it sounds like there's enough there for a real friendship. But I also understand that if you feel that strongly about somebody and then you're like, we're just friends, you're not just friends. You're pining for the person. So I get it. I'm not saying it's simple, but these are options. And I do think that this is a choice to some degree, isn't it? I don't know, Jordan. I'm curious to know what you think. But to choose to look at a situation like this and say, okay, we can't be together right now for these practical reasons, but I still care about you a lot.

• 31:44Speaker 02

  So I'm going to put you in a different category, as hard as it is in my life, and enjoy this relationship for what it can be. And then let's see.

• 31:52Speaker 01

  Interesting. I'm not totally sold, but I see what you're getting at.

• 31:56Speaker 02

  I think our friend is saying that would just be too painful. I either need to be with this woman or I need to not talk to her at all. But if she really was afraid to shake up her whole life to be with him, maybe she just needs more time. It's been two months. Let's remember, this played out over two months. And she just needs more information about what she truly wants, about how she feels about him, about her career and where it fits into her life. I'm sure he could have used that time just as much. Even for two highly compatible, emotionally intelligent people, a couple of months is not a ton of time to know if you can fully trust your feelings and take a huge chance on somebody. And so them staying connected, whether it's as partners or as lovers or as friends, whatever, maybe that would have given them both the time and information that would help.

• 32:40Speaker 02

  She could have taken her October trip. They could have spent longer stretches together at a time. She could have started her job, crushed it for six months or a year, and then maybe explored the possibility of working remotely or spending a little bit of more time in his country or applying for a transfer to the UK or applying for a new job entirely, you know? They could have looked into immigration options, which take forever anyway, like years, I think, for many people, without committing to anything. She could have begun to think about what caring for her parents might realistically look like five or 10 years from now and see if there might be a way to make that work. I'm just saying, you see, there are so many things they would have to sort out. So why move quickly? And if you can't do it now, call it quits.

• 33:17Speaker 01

  Even if she'd been like, yes, I'm in, let's do it. They'd still have to figure all that out. And that takes months, if not years, for most people. Just the logistics are a nightmare.

• 33:27Speaker 02

  So if they did that, maybe in six months or a year or two, she finds herself in a different place. Maybe she's like, okay, I can do my job remotely now. I've turned a corner with my parents. I know that I can't picture my life without you because we're still connected and it's going well. So yeah, I'm ready.

• 33:41Speaker 01

  So what you're saying is they could have decided on an arrangement that would have given her more time to really fall in love with him and allowed them to work through the logistical hurdles.

• 33:49Speaker 02

  I don't just mean that as a tactic to convince her to move. I'm saying this would be an important stage of their relationship that would have helped them both decide whether the relationship truly has legs. And by the way, in that time, they might have learned some other interesting things about each other that would be very good to know before she moves permanently to the UK.

• 34:07Speaker 01

  That I definitely agree with, although that is one challenge with the long distance thing. Long distance relationships don't test long-term compatibility. You can get to know each other very intimately intellectually, but you don't know if they leave wet towels on the hardwood floor or they turn into pole pot when they assemble IKEA furniture. You just don't know.

• 34:26Speaker 02

  To be fair, most people turn into a dictator when they assemble IKEA furniture. But you're right.

• 34:29Speaker 01

  I mean, I'm not an exception to that rule. I will throw things into the trash and just go buy another one if I have to.

• 34:35Speaker 02

  There's no Allen wrench on throwing it in. Oh, there it is.

• 34:37Speaker 01

  Why are there leftover screws? Have fun sleeping on this. I gotta go.

• 34:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, you, you know each other really well on one axis and then hardly at all on a number of other axes.

• 34:50Speaker 02

  That can be how it plays out. These are dimensions, by the way, that are also crucial for raising a child together. So this is also time well spent.

• 34:58Speaker 01

  Precisely. And compatibility isn't just how two people fit together. It's how the two lives attached to those people also fit together.

• 35:06Speaker 02

  And that's something I could have road tested by doing more trips together, for example. The thing is, this approach would have required them both to be more willing to hang in the uncertainty, which is not easy. But which I think is actually quite important in a situation like this when you have more to learn.

• 35:21Speaker 01

  So I understand what you're saying now. And I do think for some people that can work nicely. I don't know if it's for everyone, but also making these decisions after a few months, that didn't work either. However, there's one big problem with your approach, in my opinion. This blows up her fertility timeline.

• 35:38Speaker 02

  Oh, you mean if she waits around for him for two years?

• 35:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, if they enter this, like he said, ambiguous friendship, he's asking her to hang out in romantic escrow while the clock she specifically said is the most important thing to her continues to run with no forward motion.

• 35:56Speaker 02

  That's true. But that's kind of what I was trying to mitigate by suggesting that, I don't know, could they date other people while they're apart? I realize that's not nearly as romantic and it's not everybody's cup of tea. I'm guessing our friend here would hate that. So I get it. But if we're all being adults about this and this is the practical reality, that would be one way to mitigate that risk.

• 36:14Speaker 01

  The more we talk about this, the more I'm feeling that this accelerated timeline might be the culprit. She might have been the reasonable one in their relationship, basically saying.

• 36:25Speaker 02

  So is what he's calling fear actually just being responsible?

• 36:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, maybe. I know I'm a little bit of a cranky old man who's about to swat cupid out of the sky with one of those electrified mosquito rackets from Amazon.

• 36:38Speaker 02

  Hold on, hold on. I need a moment to just bask in the glory of that metaphor.

• 36:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, those things are fun, though.

• 36:46Speaker 02

  They are really fun. It's so funny. The first time I saw that was my trip to Brazil. Three years ago, my friend had one in the house we were renting. And every night before we went to bed, she would walk around the house just swatting bugs in the air so that there were no mosquitoes that would bother her at night. And she called it jugando tenis.

• 37:05Speaker 01

  It's so fun.

• 37:06Speaker 02

  That was, that was just a chef's kiss. Okay, you're about to be the cranky old man who's about to swat keep it out of the sky with one of those mosquito rackets.

• 37:13Speaker 01

  Further on those points, though, it's so fun to get a mosquito and you just incinerate it after a loud pop. And if you ever get like a horsefly, which they probably don't have in Brazil, or maybe they do, I don't know. You get like a big bugger in there and it just cooks on there. It's so satisfying because those things are so irritating. And they drink blood, so they're biting you and it hurts.

• 37:32Speaker 02

  Sometimes they don't, it like takes a few crackles to do the job. And it's, it makes me uncomfortable, but.

• 37:37Speaker 01

  No, straight into my veins. I love it. I love it. I'm like, pop, yeah, oh, pop, there goes your abdomen. That's, I'm the last person you'll ever think about biting. Good night. Yeah, no, I love it. That's, that's the Dexter bug killer in me is all in, all in on the electric mosquito racket. Anyway.

• 37:53Speaker 02

  Keeping little blood signs of the, of the bug blood.

• 37:56Speaker 01

  They're behind my window unit air conditioner. So she sensed he was going to say, I love you, and then stopped him, right? Because according to him, it was too soon.

• 38:06Speaker 02

  Right.

• 38:07Speaker 01

  But man, they were hanging out. They were talking about moving. They were having a, talking about having a baby and all this huge stuff. So either she didn't feel the exact same way about him or things were moving way too quickly for how they did feel about each other. And I think it's possible, and again, I feel almost bad saying this, but I think it's possible that she went back home after that big trip, thought all about this, talked to her friends, landed this dream job, looked at her family and went, am I really going to blow up my entire life and this dream career and move to the UK for this guy that I really like, but kind of just met? I don't think that's a good idea. Nobody else in my life thinks it's a good idea. Whereas if they slowed things down, dialed the plans down a little bit, dialed down the expectations,

• 38:52Speaker 01

  stayed connected without talking about upending their entire lives for each other. Yeah, you're right. She might have woken up in a year and gone like, okay, what am I waiting for? Let's, let's do this. But look, slightly dark Jordan pitch here. This is ChatGPT would not like this. If they're truly in love in the same way, and it's not just, it's just like not their time yet. I don't know, man. This woman's going to be 40 in about five minutes. She's on a mission to find a partner and have a child. Maybe she finds that back home, but probably it's going to take time if it happens at all. So part of me is going, and I'm not trying to be cruel when I say this. I'm just being realistic. Part of me is going, yeah, man, let her go and let her go for it. She's going to call you in a year and she's going to be singing a different tune. Because if she meets somebody like tomorrow, she's going to have to get married and get pregnant

• 39:36Speaker 01

  or whatever order she wants to do those things in, within a year and get pregnant within a year and have the baby within a year. I mean, this is an unrealistic timeline, generally speaking. It would be a crazy timeline if she was already married to you to have a baby inside of two years. Most people that age don't get pregnant right away. It takes a long time. There might be fertility issue. You just don't know any of this stuff. So I'm going to go ahead and guess that there's like a 70, 30 chance that she's still single at age 40. And then her timelines and all this stuff is totally different.

• 40:07Speaker 02

  This tune she'll be singing is called, I miss you. And let's call an immigration attorney. That's what you're getting at.

• 40:12Speaker 01

  I think so. I'm, look, I'm just not convinced that this is the end of their story. So to be very direct, here's what you might be missing. You knew this woman deeply in certain ways, but you didn't know everything about her. You didn't know her for very long, nor she, you. The intensity and velocity of this relationship might have made the potential of it feel more real than the evidence justified. Her decision to part ways, we can't know for sure, but it might have been fear, it might have been pragmatism. It might have been mismatched feelings or needs. And yeah, that hurts. But my advice to you is I would take this time apart to let the feeling settle, take stock of the relationship, mourn this relationship a little more, see how you feel when you're not talking every day, get to know these parts of yourself you've discovered through this relationship, and then decide what to do.

• 40:58Speaker 01

  Maybe you decide to call her in a couple of months and say, look, I love you. I'd like to know if you feel the same. And if you do, I'm open to getting creative and taking a new approach. What do you say? Or maybe you look at all this and you decide, okay, that was powerful, but it actually wasn't quite right or it just can't work. And it's time to put this whole thing to bed. But either way, I think you need a little time and distance to make the right call. And if your relationship continues, I would definitely put your heads together and create a definition and a timeline that takes some of the pressure off and gives both of you the time you deserve to make a decision that doesn't just feel right, but actually is right. And I'm sending you a big hug, wishing you all the best. You know, it's easier to piece together than a set of connects or an IKEA table, the discounts on the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back.

• 41:47Speaker 00

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• 42:16Speaker 01

  Thanks so much for listening and supporting the show. All of the deals, discount codes and ways to support the podcast are searchable and clickable on the website at jordanharbinger.com/deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Now, back to Feedback Friday.

• 42:31Speaker 01

  All right, what's next?

• 42:32Speaker 02

  Dear Jordan and Gabe, my wife and I recently welcomed our daughter into the world a couple of months ago. It took us about a year of trying before my wife fell pregnant and we had actually started to give up hope when she finally did. Needless to say, we were excited, ecstatic, nervous and anxious all at once. Our daughter came into the world healthy and safe and has been thriving ever since.

• 42:56Speaker 01

  Amazing, what a gift. Congratulations, my friend.

• 42:58Speaker 02

  We have an amazing support network of people who have helped us with things like bringing food, cleaning the house and taking our dog out during those first few weeks while we were trying to find our feet as a new family. We are incredibly grateful to everyone who has helped us. Unfortunately, we're having some issues with my mother. She's always been quite overbearing and has some strange beliefs, but ever since my wife fell pregnant, things have become much more intense. After talking about my experiences with a few friends, one recommended the book Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Dr. Lindsay C. Gibson.

• 43:32Speaker 01

  Heard a lot about this book, haven't read it. Have you read it?

• 43:35Speaker 02

  I have not. I might have to now, but I read up on it and the basic premise of this book for anyone who hasn't read it is there's a particular kind of childhood wound, I think is what this author is saying that can be hard to notice, which is you had parents who provided for you, loved you in some sense, were not overtly abusive, but one or both parents were unable to relate to you as a separate person with a rich emotional life of your own and autonomy and all of that.

• 44:02Speaker 01

  I see, so an ongoing trauma there. It's weird that, you know, I guess it's weird slash a relief that an adult who's emotionally immature can have a kid who's not. They're traumatized by it, which is terrible, but also they're not just destined to also be emotionally immature. I guess that's kind of the bright side, I suppose, but then you have to put up with this parent.

• 44:22Speaker 02

  There's actually a whole section of the book that deals with the two broad models of how children of these parents turn out, and I actually thought that was one of the more interesting sections in the summary that I read. But yeah, it leaves a mark, is what she's arguing, and the result, she says, is often emotional loneliness, believing that your parents' emotional state is more important than your emotional reality and developing unconscious ideas that, you know, like if I become successful enough, lovable enough, helpful enough, easy enough, good enough, I will finally get the relationship I want from my parent.

• 44:53Speaker 01

  That makes sense. So does the book present like a diagnosis for these parents or it's just some people be crazy?

• 45:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's the thesis. Some people be crazy and your mom is one of them. No, it's more like a general template that can look a few different ways. I think what this author is describing probably cuts across multiple diagnoses and labels and maybe even personalities that don't have a label.

• 45:16Speaker 01

  Got it. Might have to bump that up on the reading list, although I don't know, it seems like one of those books where am I going to even get it because I can't relate at all? My parents are normal or is it going to be like, wow, some people have it rough? I mean, I don't know.

• 45:26Speaker 02

  You're going to read it and be like, I grew up in Michigan. The worst thing about our family is that we had a cabin. I hate it.

• 45:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, that would maybe not the worst thing, but yeah, like, oh, my parents are not narcissistic emotional disasters.

• 45:37Speaker 02

  Or it's one of those books you pick up thinking it's going to help you understand your friends and do a better podcast and then you're like, oh.

• 45:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 45:46Speaker 02

  So he goes on, "Reading it was pretty eye-opening. As my mother seems to match a lot of the traits described in the book. She has low empathy, becomes defensive when criticized, can have impulsive reactions, doesn't really believe in boundaries within a family and struggles with self-awareness." Sounds like so many of the parents we hear about on the show. "Growing up, doing something that upset my mother would often result in the silent treatment. This has been happening since I was around five or six. I have a really vivid memory of writing down my feelings of frustration and anger towards my mother because I was trying to find a way to express myself. Her response was to completely dismiss what I was feeling and say, maybe I should write a list of things that are difficult about living with you."

• 46:30Speaker 01

  Oh, wow. So this mom just cannot take in any feedback whatsoever and can't even validate a feeling? And remember, this is not an adult saying this to his mom. This was a five or six-year-old with a journal and she said that to the child. That's, ugh, so cringe isn't quite the right word, but I am cringing. Yikes.

• 46:51Speaker 02

  I know what you mean. It's fascinating that an adult could be that threatened by a child and their feelings about them even at that stage. So it must be even harder as an adult. So he goes on, "I brought this up with her as an adult and her response was simply, that didn't happen."

• 47:06Speaker 01

  Oh, cool. If you can't defend, deny, just pretend it never even took place. Wow, she, this is immature is not, it's not like, oh, this is an immature adult. This person is immature in the way that like an 11-year-old is immature.

• 47:19Speaker 02

  Frequently, when I've tried to talk to her about her behavior as an adult, I met with things like, you're being sensitive or stop being defensive.

• 47:26Speaker 01

  Ah, I'm getting the picture now.

• 47:28Speaker 02

  When I met my wife, she helped me understand that my feelings, whatever they are, are valid. She's been an amazing support in helping me understand that I matter, not just to other people, but also to myself.

• 47:39Speaker 01

  Man, that's really sweet. That must have been a powerful message to receive after this childhood.

• 47:44Speaker 02

  What he's implying is that he didn't feel he mattered much before that to others or to himself. That's hard for him. So yeah, that's the legacy of having a parent like this. Sad.

• 47:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is. And his mom, it sounds like she has no idea. She doesn't even think it happened. Here's the thing, does she not really think it happened or is she just like, well, I refuse to acknowledge any fault of that, so I'm just going to completely deny that it happened, even though I know damn well I remember the day very clearly because my ego was bruised? I kind of think it's the latter, actually.

• 48:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's hard to know though, because if you're the kind of person who can't even deal with a moment like that, you might genuinely forget that it happened. But then if somebody's coming to you and saying, hey, that happened, she won't even say, really? I don't remember that.

• 48:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's why it sounds like nonsense to me. If I don't remember something, I go, weird, I don't remember that, huh? I don't go, you're lying about that because I don't remember it. Anyway, what's for lunch? That's, to me, seems way more like she knows damn well, she's just totally inequipped to deal with it, which I don't know, is more annoying somehow? Anyway, whatever.

• 48:43Speaker 02

  I've basically given up on having anything more than a surface level relationship with my mother because I don't think she's going to change. My mother and father are still together. Dad is much more emotionally mature and if I set a boundary, he'll complain about it, but ultimately he'll listen. When it comes to mom, though, he's unusually dismissive and says things like, you know what your mother is like, or that's just how your mother is.

• 49:08Speaker 01

  That is classic enabling slash sweeping things under the rug. Very helpful, Dad.

• 49:13Speaker 02

  Slash helplessness. He feels he can't change or stand up to her either, so he's just like throwing up his hands. Yeah, that's just what it is.

• 49:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, but it's so clear how the family, the entire family has organized itself around her personality. It's just infuriating.

• 49:28Speaker 02

  About three years ago, my sister had a daughter and I frequently watched my mother trample over my sister's boundaries or quote unquote, parent my niece in more traditional ways that I don't think are appropriate anymore. This tends to happen more when my sister isn't around. I've raised this with my sister, although unfortunately, nothing has really changed. That's interesting. So his sister either knows it's a problem, but can't speak to the mom either, it's hard for her, or she doesn't even see this behavior as problematic. But that's an interesting data point, how two different siblings deal with the same parents. One example is mealtimes at my parents' house. My three-year-old niece is expected to sit at the table and not move until she's finished everything on her plate. My sister has repeatedly asked them to not make a big deal out of food and to let her

• 50:12Speaker 02

  come and go as she understands that this sort of behavior can contribute to food insecurity. My parents dismiss this and continue doing what they believe is best. I understand that this comes from a more traditional parenting style, but to me, it demonstrates a willingness to disregard my sister's boundaries when they don't agree with them.

• 50:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, interesting. And/or just a total lack of curiosity about what these parenting techniques mean and do to a kid, but that totally tracks, doesn't it? They literally can't even entertain that because the hypersensitivity with the ego, it's like, oh, you don't like the way I do things? This means something about me. That's totally tracks.

• 50:48Speaker 02

  When our daughter was born, I asked everyone who came to visit not to kiss her. My mother kissed her and I said, please don't kiss her. Her immune system isn't fully developed and we don't want her getting sick. She dismissed this by saying, when you were younger, your grandmother kissed you and nothing happened. I responded, please respect our boundaries for our daughter. Her response was, there are no boundaries.

• 51:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, damn, this, she is completely not only disrespectful, but so entitled. Oh, wow. What an asshole.

• 51:15Speaker 02

  I mean, even if you think you're right, that's an intense thing to say. The gall.

• 51:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's crazy. Your mother is a jerk. Sorry, it's true.

• 51:23Speaker 02

  I see her more as scared than jerkish, but I take your point.

• 51:26Speaker 01

  People can be jerks when they're scared. It doesn't mean that they're not a jerk just because they have a reason for it.

• 51:31Speaker 02

  I agree. I guess I'm asking what's underneath it and it's probably the fear of having to take this information in and respect that other people have their own preferences, you know?

• 51:39Speaker 01

  I hope she's more scared of that than of never seeing her grandkids because that's where this is heading.

• 51:43Speaker 02

  There have also been multiple occasions- Where she's turned up unannounced to see our daughter. We've asked her to please let us know before coming over, only to be dismissed again with things like, it's just me, or it's fine.

• 51:55Speaker 01

  Oh, I don't have to follow basic social etiquette or honor my child's basic requests. I'm me.

• 52:01Speaker 02

  The person you explicitly asked not to come over unannounced, that person, me.

• 52:05Speaker 01

  She's a nightmare. This is a level of entitlement. I know we throw this word around a lot. Everyone does narcissism, emotional immaturity, and just total tone deafness that I am struggling to wrap my head around. I can see why that lady wrote that book about these types of parents.

• 52:21Speaker 02

  Yep, and why it's been such a hit for so many years. I'm honestly more weirded out by the showing up unannounced thing than I am by the kissing the baby thing.

• 52:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think I agree. I get that some parents don't understand how germs work. I know that sounds dense as hell because germ theory has been around for a minute, but every a-hole knows not to show up someplace that you were not invited. This is just human-ing 101.

• 52:45Speaker 02

  My wife is an early childhood educator with multiple degrees and years of experience. When she's tried to explain the science behind child development to my mother, she has also been dismissed.

• 52:55Speaker 01

  Science? Child development? No clue what you're talking about, Chloe. That doesn't sound real. I'm just gonna go with my gut, which is never wrong.

• 53:02Speaker 02

  I don't need these things. I'm me.

• 53:04Speaker 01

  Exactly. Unless his wife is being super condescending when she explains this stuff. It's crazy that his mom won't go, well, let me at least hear her out. Maybe I could learn a thing or two. Unbelievable.

• 53:15Speaker 02

  And that's what I was just getting at, that I think even to sit there and take new information in from an actual expert, even that is threatening. It's not even like about how she's wrong or did something terrible. It's like she can't even accommodate new information.

• 53:28Speaker 01

  My neighbor was like a little bit like this. He was nice enough to me, but he was this cranky old man, and you couldn't give him bad news. You just couldn't do it. So I remember his wife told my parents once, he went to the doctor and they were like, hey, you have to change your diet. You have high blood pressure. And he puts his finger in the doctor's chest and keeps poking him, and he goes, I'm not gonna let some little man in a little white coat tell me what to do. And the doctor was like, well, you're no longer my patient. I'm firing you. And I remember his wife had to go back in and basically beg the doctor to take him back as a patient because he couldn't find another good doctor in the area. And he was like, okay, on the condition that you're with him every single time, because I'm not putting up with this old farts abuse while I try to keep him alive.

• 54:12Speaker 02

  Oh, my God. I'm just the image of him poking him in the.

• 54:16Speaker 01

  I'm not gonna let some little guy in a little white coat tell me what to do. And it's like, okay, well, I'm the doctor. Why did you come here?

• 54:22Speaker 02

  You're not listening. It's stage four. Do you understand? Well, I'm not.

• 54:26Speaker 01

  Yep. All right. Well, I won't be at your funeral.

• 54:29Speaker 02

  Uh, so he goes on, at the moment, my mother isn't allowed to be around my daughter unsupervised.

• 54:33Speaker 01

  Good.

• 54:34Speaker 02

  I don't think that's gonna change unless she shows that she's capable of changing her behavior.

• 54:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that's probably for the best.

• 54:40Speaker 02

  I want my daughter to have a good relationship with all of her grandparents. I don't want to take that away from her.

• 54:45Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 54:45Speaker 02

  It's exhausting and frustrating to feel like I have to constantly be on top of my mother whenever she's around, while also knowing that what I'm saying is likely to be dismissed or ignored anyway.

• 54:56Speaker 01

  Well, it's an impossible problem.

• 54:58Speaker 02

  How can I set boundaries with my mother that will actually stick? How can I protect my daughter from my mother while still allowing them to have a relationship? And how can I make sure I don't follow in my mother's footsteps? And I make sure that I'm emotionally available for my daughter. Signed, an adult child of an emotionally immature parent, who's now being transparent that he wants to transcend these painful impairments. So this troubling template, his daughter doesn't inherit.

• 55:25Speaker 01

  Oh, man, what a nightmare. When I hear stories like this, I just, again, thank my lucky stars that me and Jen's parents are cool. I mean, they come over unannounced all the time. It's kind of part of our family thing, that it's an open door policy. They're always here. They play with the kids. They, obviously, they help clean, which is awesome, too. And my parents do the same thing. They just roll over. But look, if we said, could you give us a heads up before you come over? I know that they would listen. They routinely ask me if I'm okay with the arrangement, and I've been married to Jen for like a decade almost.

• 55:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's, you guys are extremely lucky, but man, way to rub it in with our friend here.

• 55:59Speaker 01

  Not my intention. I'm just saying it's wild that some parents are like this, just tone deaf tyrants that have to have their way. So get that shock glass out, folks. I'm very sorry that your mom is like this. I'm sorry she treated you this way as a child, that she's not respecting you in your positions now as an adult. It sucks that she can't have a reasonable conversation with anybody about her behavior or her beliefs or her outlook. That is extremely challenging. So I don't know how to set boundaries with her that are gonna stick, or if she's just convinced that boundaries don't apply to her. Like she even said, there are no boundaries. I mean, I suppose you could literally refuse to open the door when she shows up unannounced. That actually is a great option. You could open the door as well and say, sorry, mom, I told you to give us a call first. Now's not a good time.

• 56:42Speaker 01

  Text me tomorrow. We'll make a plan. Love you, and close the door. That's gonna be tough, but wow, I would love to see that.

• 56:48Speaker 02

  I would love to see it, too, but I think she's gonna blow a gasket if he does that.

• 56:51Speaker 01

  I kind of want that to happen. I don't know. I'm sure she will, and it's gonna be super uncomfortable for both of them. But who created that situation, huh? Who's fault is it?

• 56:59Speaker 02

  You're right. I'm just imagining actually saying that to a parent.

• 57:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, he's saying, please call or text first, and she's saying, no, I don't have to do that because what you want is not important to me at all. I don't know another way of saying, uh, yeah, you do. Please listen to what I'm saying. I mean, if he doesn't uphold the boundary, then.

• 57:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's not really a boundary then.

• 57:17Speaker 01

  Right. Or like if she kisses your daughter when you ask her not to, you could gently take the daughter back and say, sorry, mom, I asked you several times not to kiss her, remember? And then you just don't invite her over again until after the baby's had all her shots. And if she shows up unannounced, you tell her exactly what we talked about above. Now, look, I know different parents have different views on that. I'm trying to make room for that. But my understanding is that holding off on outside people kissing babies is a smart move. And you hear about this all the time. This is not like some sort of uber conservative health thing. There's a lot of people that should not be kissing babies, most adults, when the babies are really young, and anybody who has like a cold sore, stuff like that. You're just not supposed to give that stuff to kids. You're supposed to be super careful about that. It can cause brain damage. I mean, this is not good.

• 58:02Speaker 01

  Anyway, it's gonna be awkward. It's gonna feel petty, but that's how you can do it.

• 58:06Speaker 02

  The thing is, he can do all that and still not be a dick about it. Maybe that's.

• 58:10Speaker 01

  I know. Being a dick would be way more fun for me personally, but I understand your impulse not to. No argument there. No trying to convince her of this, by the way. You don't owe her a 40-minute symposium about child psychology. No enjoying the boundary setting too much, I suppose. You can just state the position and take the appropriate action without escalating. The consequence is the boundary. Speaking of which, I would definitely maintain the boundary about not leaving the baby alone with her if you really believe she might do something weird or traumatizing to the baby. But I think your mom's involvement in your lives, it's always gonna be marked by pushing your boundaries, right? This is kind of how she rolls. I just don't see this woman stopping. So if something's gonna change, the options are basically get stronger in how you enforce the boundaries,

• 58:55Speaker 01

  which means being willing to lean into the tension with her sometimes, which, incidentally, I think your wife is really gonna appreciate because this has got to be really hard for her to deal with, too. She can't do this on your behalf. You have to do it. Or ease up on the boundaries and learn to be more flexible with her, and maybe we need to make some room for that in certain areas, but with a parent like this, I think that means she gets emboldened if you do that, and then you pay the price. I think that's what's really gonna happen.

• 59:19Speaker 02

  And then he recreates his childhood all over again.

• 59:22Speaker 01

  Exactly. Mom gets her way again with zero adjustment or introspection on her part.

• 59:26Speaker 02

  And now he's back to enabling her crazy, just like dad.

• 59:29Speaker 01

  Yes, at the expense of your child and your wife, too. His mom is an impossible problem. You can't solve it. You can only protect against it.

• 59:37Speaker 02

  If he does stand up for himself, you know, gently calls his mom out when she's doing weird stuff, holds these boundaries more strongly, and she still tries to cross them, then he might lose sometimes, right? Like if she shows up unannounced and literally waltzes into the house and he can't physically remove her, that could happen, and he might end up in some real conflicts with his mom because of all of this. But at least he won't feel the old wound of biting his tongue and rolling over and adjusting to her reality as a matter of policy.

• 1:00:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, he can at least know that he took himself seriously and he pushed back.

• 1:00:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that counts for something. It counts for a lot, really. Just the asserting himself a little bit more, that might be the victory. I just hate that he suddenly has to be the cruel or unreasonable one for drawing these lines when she's the one who's out of line.

• 1:00:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, but dude, drawing these lines is a rational response to dealing with somebody who is irrational. So.

• 1:00:27Speaker 02

  That's true.

• 1:00:28Speaker 01

  I'm actually not sure that it is unreasonable, so to speak.

• 1:00:32Speaker 02

  You make a good point. I just mean, he's gonna feel like the difficult one for a little while. You know, he's gonna feel like the cruel or unreasonable one.

• 1:00:38Speaker 01

  Yes, but that is different. How he feels in this new stance, that's different from what is objectively happening. My feeling is he has to go hard in the paint to protect himself against this woman because she's out of her tree. Yes, it's gonna feel uncomfortable and unreasonable based on his childhood and how he was raised, but that doesn't mean he's actually being unreasonable at all.

• 1:00:58Speaker 02

  I think his final question is actually the most urgent. How can I make sure I don't follow in my mother's footsteps? How do I make sure I'm emotionally available for my daughter?

• 1:01:06Speaker 01

  Hundo P. Love that he's asking that.

• 1:01:08Speaker 02

  Man, the questions you guys are asking this week are so great. It's like our friend from question one, who was like, what am I missing? Like, I don't want to just be coddled. Tell me what I might not be understanding here. And here this guy is saying, I grew up with a mother like this. I don't want to make the same mistake. These are just great questions. So first of all, by reading that book and asking this question, realizing the impact of having this mother, you, it seems to me that you're already well on your way. This whole template with your mom is basically about denying the inner world of the child, right? That's what I gather from the summary that I read. So it's a relational failure. The Gibson book says that emotionally immature people tend to have limited emotional self-awareness. They tend to have poor empathy, low tolerance for uncomfortable feelings,

• 1:01:50Speaker 02

  rigid ways of thinking, difficulty engaging in genuine emotional intimacy. So, you know, these are kind of conceptual, but there's your rubric right there. Those are the qualities that you need to keep an eye on and cultivate.

• 1:02:02Speaker 01

  Agreed. It's funny, though. I'm not getting strong, limited emotional self-awareness vibes from his letter at all.

• 1:02:08Speaker 02

  Quite the opposite. Also, poor empathy. He's literally saying, how do I not do this to my daughter?

• 1:02:13Speaker 01

  So, yeah, I mean, that sounds pretty empathetic to me.

• 1:02:16Speaker 02

  Low tolerance for uncomfortable feelings, difficulty engaging in genuine emotional intimacy, rigid ways of thinking.

• 1:02:23Speaker 01

  Hmm, harder to say based on his letter.

• 1:02:25Speaker 02

  Yeah. To be fair, I think those qualities are hard for most human beings, but yeah.

• 1:02:29Speaker 01

  He did allude to not feeling like he mattered. I could see that going hand in hand with low tolerance for uncomfortable feelings. For example, anger.

• 1:02:37Speaker 02

  That's a really good point. I could also see it having an impact on emotional intimacy, but it sounds like he's very close and open with his wife, for example. So that's a great sign. Anyway, the point is, everything you learned in that book is also kind of a roadmap for what not to do. So I would start there.

• 1:02:52Speaker 01

  Gabe, I want to talk about dad for a second. His whole, well, you know what your mom's like. That comment is so frustrating and annoying.

• 1:02:57Speaker 02

  So frustrating.

• 1:02:58Speaker 01

  Because he's basically saying, we all agree that regulating her emotions or just straight up pretending they're not an issue, that is everyone else's job. She's never going to play a part in that.

• 1:03:09Speaker 02

  So I'm sure that our friend here has some similarly tough feelings about his father, which might be harder sometimes to even realize, since he's not the obvious aggressor here, but they must exist.

• 1:03:19Speaker 01

  Could not agree more. Dad might be equally ill-equipped to deal with all this. I suppose he'd have to be to stay married to somebody like this, because I would just, I would be so annoyed at this person. They wouldn't even make it a few weeks with me. But he also shares massively in the responsibility for creating this dynamic in their family.

• 1:03:36Speaker 02

  Right. It doesn't exist without him.

• 1:03:38Speaker 01

  So I would also say, gonna fall on the sword today. All of this would be great stuff to bring into therapy. You'd take the, you finish that shot.

• 1:03:45Speaker 02

  Somebody just called an ambulance and checked into the ER.

• 1:03:47Speaker 01

  If you want to rewrite this stuff, so you recreate as little of it as possible with your kids, that's the ideal place to do it. But I'm sure you already know that.

• 1:03:55Speaker 02

  Sorry, dude. I'm just laughing because I was just thinking about the show, The Pit. I don't know if you've watched it.

• 1:03:59Speaker 01

  I haven't.

• 1:04:00Speaker 02

  It's about an ER in Pittsburgh. I'm just picturing somebody coming in and Noah Wiley from ER being like, what brought you in with alcohol poisoning? And they're like, I just love this podcast.

• 1:04:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah, they, unfortunately, the rules make it way too easy to get hammered. As for protecting your daughter from your mother, I would say, keep a close eye on her. Notice if she ever shows any sign of stress, avoidance, quiet, anything like that before or after she spends time with your mom. Check in with her often, especially as she gets older and can really talk. You know, ask her, how was your afternoon with grandma? What did you guys do? Did you have fun? How are you feeling about grandma in general? And make it safe for her to tell you the truth either way. That is key. And if your daughter ever does have any problems with your mom, I would talk to your wife and decide as a team, if you guys need to intervene in some way or change the amount of contact that they have. But really, the way you relate to your daughter, that's the key here.

• 1:04:54Speaker 01

  Every one of these conversations is a chance to do things very differently from how your mom did it. So I would literally just go into these chats thinking, how can I take my daughter's inner world seriously? How can I make sure I'm understanding her? How can I tolerate potentially difficult words from her and still be all right? It sounds to me like that's the opposite of your childhood. So again, I'm very sorry your mom is so difficult. And in a strange way, she's also forcing you to evolve as a parent and end this cycle. So in her own way, she's playing an important role in all this. And maybe making room for that will also help you cope with when she shows up unannounced or squeezes your daughter's cheeks without washing her hands first. I appreciate your mindset here. Your daughter's a lucky kid and good luck. By the way, you can reach us,

• 1:05:39Speaker 01

  [email protected]. Keep your emails concise. Try to use descriptive subject lines. That makes our job a whole lot easier. If you're wondering how to support a colleague who's in a full-blown addiction at work, you're trying to integrate your former mistress slash now legitimate partner into your family, or you were drugged, robbed, and assaulted in a foreign country and are struggling to get your life back on track. Such an intense letter from last week. My God. Whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up, [email protected]. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. And now, even the following sponsors are decent enough to give you a notification when they're on the way to your house. We'll be right back.

• 1:06:21Speaker 04

  Abercrombie Baby has every outfit they'll need to make this season of Firsts even more memorable. Think little looks with lots of cheer, like the Emerson dress or festive sweater. For cozy moments in, A&F essential sets are the go-to for comfort. And get ready to match your mini in cute pajama sets for the annual family card. Have a very Abercrombie Baby holiday. Shop in the app, online, and in stores.

• 1:06:47Speaker 01

  By the way, if you haven't signed up yet, We Bit Wiser is our, I would say, weekly, but who are we kidding, newsletter. It's delivered directly from us to you. It's a gem from the show. It's an under two-minute read and it's highly practical. JordanHarbinger.com/news is where you can find it.

• 1:07:03Speaker 01

  All right, next up.

• 1:07:05Speaker 02

  Dear Jordan and Gabriel, I'm a 34-year-old man and part of a small church of about 25 active members. Nearly half of them are from the same family and many have known each other for years. So the atmosphere is very informal. The issue is that some of the joking and behavior makes me uncomfortable. There's no profanity or anything illegal, but there are frequent sexual double meanings, teasing about homosexuality, sitting on each other's laps as a joke, playful kissing, and other behavior that feels inappropriate to me in a church setting.

• 1:07:39Speaker 01

  What kind of church is this again?

• 1:07:41Speaker 02

  I don't know. Our Lady of the No-Homo?

• 1:07:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know. They sound Presbyterian. No, I'm kidding. I don't even know what that means. This is a weird situation, for sure.

• 1:07:51Speaker 02

  I became a committed Christian in 2023, and this was one of the first things that bothered me when I joined. To be fair, I've learned to handle some of these situations better over time, and I'm not embarrassed all the time. But in certain moments, I still feel uncomfortable or even a little ashamed to be present, especially when members from another church connected to ours visit, because some of them have an even more playful style and don't always seem to read the room well.

• 1:08:17Speaker 01

  Wow. So this isn't even the weirdest church in your area? There's an even crazier one? Do tell. Wow.

• 1:08:22Speaker 02

  What affects me most is that I sometimes find myself anticipating whether a joke or interaction will cross a line for me, which creates a kind of low-level tension whenever we gather socially. I've brought up my concerns before. The leadership acknowledges that some people struggle with boundaries, but the message is usually that I should be patient and show grace.

• 1:08:43Speaker 01

  Interesting.

• 1:08:43Speaker 02

  How do you tell the difference between a community that simply has a different culture and one where your core values no longer fit? And how do you address it without becoming the guy who constantly criticizes everyone else? Signed, a conflicted parishioner trying not to become the commissioner when it comes to these exhibitioners and wondering about his position here when it comes to remaining a practitioner.

• 1:09:07Speaker 01

  As you probably know, I don't belong to a church. I don't have super strong feelings about the right way to behave in one. So we're a little outside our bailiwick here.

• 1:09:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's why I thought it would be fun to take this one, though. Apparently, he thinks we might know the answer, so let's give it a shot.

• 1:09:19Speaker 01

  So before we try to answer this, Gabe, this joking around he's describing?

• 1:09:23Speaker 02

  I cannot tell what it means or how serious it is. It's a little vague.

• 1:09:26Speaker 01

  Same. So sexual double entendres, fine. I guess they have kind of a Michael Scott vibe at this church. Kind of weird, but maybe mostly innocent. Teasing about homosexuality, what does that mean?

• 1:09:37Speaker 02

  I do not know what that means. Are they like openly making fun of gay people? Or are they actually the other way? They're super accepting and they're going far in the other direction? Like, let's sit in each other's laps because this is not a big deal?

• 1:09:47Speaker 01

  Uh huh. Yeah, that's kind of the sitting on the lap thing is a joke. I don't know. It sounds kind of high school football team-ish, right? I don't know. I guess they, that could mean, they could go either way, kind of like some of the guys in church. But playful kissing, I don't know what to make of that. Is that girls sitting on a guy's lap and giving him a kiss? Or is that a guy sitting on a guy's lap and giving him a kiss? Those are different things. Those are different things, depending on how playful they are. I mean, you know, what's going on here?

• 1:10:13Speaker 02

  But even still, part of me is going, well, maybe I shouldn't say this because I don't, I'm not, I don't belong to a church, so what do I know? But is that the worst thing? Maybe everybody's friendly and just having a laugh?

• 1:10:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know.

• 1:10:23Speaker 02

  Between, I don't know. But then another part of me is going like, what is this, Love Island?

• 1:10:27Speaker 01

  It does kind of feel like a TLC show waiting to happen. I just, I'm so curious. Is, there's a lot of lap setting, there's a lot of kissing. It seems like a little bit of a free-for-all. And he's watching like, hey, button it up, you savages. We're reading from scripture.

• 1:10:39Speaker 02

  Yes, but I also find it interesting that he's even anticipating them doing something that's going to make him uncomfortable. So this isn't only them doing stuff that's objectively problematic. It's also his anxiety that someone is going to do something that's going to flood him with shame, actually. So that is at least partly his stuff. And so maybe we can come back to that. I'm also just remembering, though, half the congregation is are from the same family and a lot of them have known one another for years. So these are like cousins and old family friends kissing and sitting on one another's laps, right?

• 1:11:09Speaker 01

  Well, whatever's going on, all of this behavior feels inappropriate to him. So the question is, is it objectively inappropriate? Or does it strike him as inappropriate because of his own ideas and biases about what church is supposed to be like?

• 1:11:21Speaker 02

  I think it could easily be both.

• 1:11:23Speaker 01

  And so I guess this really comes down to whether your core values are being appropriately challenged by this place or just completely contradicted by this place.

• 1:11:30Speaker 02

  Yes. And not just his core values, but also his threshold for this kind of behavior, his emotional response to all this stuff, like this anticipation that something bad is going to happen. So this is also where I think we would need to know what the content of these jokes is that would actually really help us. Understand his values better.

• 1:11:46Speaker 01

  If he's low key homophobic, then I'd probably say, I think I can understand why you feel that way. But respectfully, you need to reconsider some of your values. If these other congregationists are kind of homophobic, then I might agree with his core values. But I might still ask, do you need everyone at your church to agree with you in every way?

• 1:12:03Speaker 02

  That's a nice question. Yeah, I don't know. I'm a little torn here, but it just might not be a fit.

• 1:12:08Speaker 01

  I am too. I mean, I'm still thinking about cousins making out while the pastor's giving a sermon about forgiveness or something. It's just weird.

• 1:12:14Speaker 02

  Not the ideal environment for getting right with the Lord. I'll give him that.

• 1:12:17Speaker 01

  Generally not. I mean, if there were a church like this when I was growing up, I might've been more interested. But yeah, it does seem weird and inappropriate. So maybe he's right. It's hard to say without being there.

• 1:12:26Speaker 02

  I guess what I would say is you feel some tension at this church and that's being created by what sounds like odd behavior. But it's also being created by your values, your beliefs, and it sounds like your, oh, that word, proleptic concern that people are going to do something that's going to make you uncomfortable. One of the beliefs that you have seems to be, I think everyone at this church should agree with me that this is no way to behave.

• 1:12:48Speaker 01

  Which might not be totally wrong.

• 1:12:50Speaker 02

  Which might not be totally wrong, but believing that people shouldn't do or say certain things at church, that is slightly different from needing everyone to conform exactly to his ideas about what's right. Another belief he has might be, these kinds of jokes are okay, but those kinds of jokes are not. Sounds like J H P T every time Jordan asks for help. But again, he might be right, but who gets to decide that? Besides Sam Altman, obviously, but maybe there's also a belief about what the leadership at this church should be doing about this, which is interesting, as well as these beliefs about, you know, the limits of patience and grace, which is an interesting question. So like Jordan just said, you might have some very good arguments for these beliefs. We might even agree with some of them and it might be interesting for you to just really unpack them and see how much water they hold,

• 1:13:34Speaker 02

  especially this idea that everyone in a community should subscribe to the same exact standards that you do. Not saying you're wrong. I'm just inviting you to get more curious about that because that seems like the key to deciding if the issue here is this church or it's you.

• 1:13:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, especially because he's asking, how do you address this without becoming the guy who constantly criticizes everyone? I do wonder if that's a clue to his personality. I'm speculating now, but is this the inner hall monitor, right? I mean, I wonder if he thinks of himself as right and other people as wrong a lot? And does he go around policing people? I'm expanding this far beyond what he's written here. I'm not accusing you of this. I'm just curious. If you do that, that might be an interesting quality to look at.

• 1:14:14Speaker 02

  I'm also remembering that he said that he converted or committed to Christianity in 2023. So he chose as an adult later in life to dedicate himself to this religion and to this community. So he might be particularly passionate in a way that the others are not. And maybe that entails certain beliefs as well. And maybe that's part of the whole hall monitor thing. But yeah, I kind of wondered that too, when he said that the message he gets from the leadership is that he should just be patient and show grace. Is that a nice way of saying, okay, but you're a little uptight and finger wagging? And you're judging these people for relatively innocent behavior?

• 1:14:47Speaker 01

  And it might be, but to be fair, it might also be something that bad leaders say when they just don't want to do anything about a real problem.

• 1:14:53Speaker 02

  This whole idea of whether it's fair for him to judge these people is really interesting to me. Cause in a way, it would be a very Christian thing to not judge his peers, show grace, you know, forgive them for they know not what they do, et cetera, et cetera. In another way, like we keep saying, this is church and this place sounds like a circus. So I don't think it's totally crazy for him to say, guys, can you like pull it together a little bit? Can you show a little respect for an hour while we contemplate the ultimate concerns here? Like you can fake grope your cousin in the parking lot later, Chris, like right now.

• 1:15:24Speaker 01

  Sorry, Chris. Time and place, Chris. Time and place. Gabe, the more we talk about this, the more I feel like, whether our friend is right or wrong, if there is such a thing, it's not the right church for him and that's okay.

• 1:15:34Speaker 02

  Jordan, the more we talk about this, the more I feel like us saying, the more we talk about this, the more I feel like should be part of the drinking game.

• 1:15:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, the more we, the more we talk about this and take a shot.

• 1:15:44Speaker 02

  I think maybe another good question is if he left, would he be missing an opportunity to hang in the tension of having his beliefs challenged a little bit by this place and see what he learns? I mean, I guess that's what he's already doing and he's, it's not going well. But he's also spending a lot of time there mentally playing sheriff and then being afraid even when bad things are not happening, just afraid that they are going to happen. So now we're back to that shame piece, which I do think is his to look at.

• 1:16:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, I can't help but notice that his questions were basically, how do you know when a culture is too different? And when your core values don't fit? And how do you try to change people without becoming a busybody? He didn't ask what our friend from question one asked, which is, what am I missing? Is there a chance I might be wrong?

• 1:16:22Speaker 02

  Ah, good point.

• 1:16:24Speaker 01

  I'm actually a little confused about why he was writing in. I mean, did he want us to tell him he's right and give him a script for changing these people? How helpful would that actually be? I'm not necessarily saying he is wrong, but his questions might say something about his mindset, his worldview. And that might mean that he does need to check himself a little bit and maybe sticking around would be an interesting learning opportunity. So my advice is keep checking in with yourself about these values. Keep examining these beliefs, what they're made up of, where they come from. Maybe experiment with different approaches, even if it's just noticing your inner monologue when you're in church and choosing not to act on it and just see how you feel. Maybe consult with some other folks within this community, outside the community and get their opinion on all this.

• 1:17:07Speaker 01

  Maybe they're like, dude, you need to relax. Or maybe they're like, oh, this is super weird and leadership's doing nothing. Find another church. And I guess ask yourself if your spiritual interests are truly being met by this place. And then consider if there's a better church for you out there.

• 1:17:20Speaker 02

  And then approach Bravo about doing a reality show at this place, because I think it's going to stop.

• 1:17:24Speaker 01

  I would watch that. I would watch that. Hope this helps and good luck, man. And now we need you to show us some grace by patronizing the amazing sponsors that support this show. We'll be right back.

• 1:17:37Speaker 01

  If you liked this episode of Feedback Friday and found our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do. Take a moment, support our sponsors. All of the deals and discounts are searchable and clickable on the website at jordanharbinger.com/deals. And if that doesn't work, you can email me, [email protected], we'll dig up that code for you, no problem. It is that important that you support those who support the show. Now for the rest of Feedback Friday.

• 1:18:03Speaker 01

  And now for the recommendation of the week. I am addicted to Litville.

• 1:18:07Speaker 02

  So the other night I rewatched the movie No Country for Old Men. This is written and directed by the Coen Brothers, based on the Cormac McCarthy novel. And I had forgotten how unbelievably good that movie is. I'm going to resist the urge to go full film nerd here, but what the Coen Brothers do, just their visual storytelling, their dialogue, their bizarre sense of humor, the editing, the way they walk this amazing line between revealing information and playing with ambiguity, they are just like truly in a league of their own.

• 1:18:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, they really are. You watch their movies and you go, oh, this is what a movie can be. These dudes are masters of their craft. You know Fargo is like one of my favorites. I mean, that scene where she's running around with the bag and the wood chipper is going, and you're just like laughing and you hate yourself for laughing. I mean, that's the genius, genius, the way they put that feeling into you.

• 1:18:55Speaker 02

  Yeah. It's so funny. Every time we talk about that scene, I think you're mixing two scenes from that movie, right? You're talking about the thing where she's running around in the woods and then later the wood.

• 1:19:04Speaker 01

  I guess so. In my head, she's walking around the wood chipper with a bag over her head, but that probably didn't actually happen.

• 1:19:10Speaker 02

  No, I don't think so, but it's at this, I think it's at the same location. It's outside the cabin. We're giving terrible spoilers. You guys gotta watch that movie. If you haven't seen it, it's so good. But yeah, another masterpiece Fargo and No Country for Old Men are kind of cousins, actually. And you can see the two movies speaking to each other 10 years apart. It's fascinating.

• 1:19:27Speaker 01

  I never thought about that, but you're right. I guess they both deal with good versus evil, order versus caste. It's funny because I remember watching No Country for Old Men and all my friends hated it. And usually I'm the one that hates a movie and everyone else likes it. And this was the exception. I was like, this movie was genius and I had to explain it to everyone. And I thought like, wow, this is the first time that's happened. Usually I'm like, I don't understand what happened. Everyone, someone explained this to me and they always have to do that.

• 1:19:47Speaker 02

  It's a much more confusing movie philosophically than Fargo, and that's part of what I love about it. They took a lot more swings and played with a lot of mystery in that movie. But it just, the plot and the turns and the efficiency of the story and how it keeps clicking forward are just like next level. And yeah, both movies Fargo and No Country are saying very different things about these themes that you just mentioned without, and this is my favorite part, without slapping you upside the head with it, they just kind of nod to it and then let you decide.

• 1:20:13Speaker 01

  Their restraint is what I love about them. They're very low key. They know when to say something and when to just let it marinate.

• 1:20:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, it must be part of like growing up in Minnesota or something, you know, they're like, they have like that salt of the earth, like very low key kind of thing. And it's just, it translates very well. Anyway, this movie's great. The acting, the cinematography, the wardrobe, the locations, the way they interpret the novel it's based on. It's just an incredible film. It grabs you by the throat, quite literally, actually, if you've seen it. And it doesn't let go until the end. And then you're just left asking yourself all these questions and wondering what happens after the movie ends, which to me is one of the marks of a great story. So that's my wreck of the week, just this movie, No Country for Old Men, if you haven't seen it. But really all of the Coen Brothers movies are just, they're so good. Fargo, The Big Lebowski, Raising Arizona, Inside Llewyn Davis. Have you seen that one, Jordan?

• 1:21:01Speaker 01

  No, I never even heard of that.

• 1:21:02Speaker 02

  Probably their saddest movie and one of the more bizarre ones, but it's one of my favorites. So good. There's a movie called The Ballad of Buster Scruggs, which is a series of short films on Netflix. They're all minor masterpieces. These dudes just rarely miss. So I hope that gives you some good wrecks or some fun rewatches and I hope you guys enjoy.

• 1:21:21Speaker 01

  All right. What's next?

• 1:21:22Speaker 02

  Dear advisors, I am a 35 year old one. Yeah, we got a promotion.

• 1:21:26Speaker 01

  I'll take it.

• 1:21:26Speaker 02

  I like that. Yeah. I'm a 35 year old woman in the Pacific Northwest, single, no kids, no pets, unless you count a shrimp tank.

• 1:21:34Speaker 01

  Shrimp tank. Is that a euphemism? Does she have a harem of tiny men in her apartment?

• 1:21:39Speaker 02

  No, I don't think so.

• 1:21:40Speaker 01

  Short kings?

• 1:21:41Speaker 02

  Arthur Potts. This is Raising Crustaceans is what's happening.

• 1:21:44Speaker 01

  Got it. I'm just making sure I understood because it's a weird thing to call out.

• 1:21:47Speaker 02

  Shrimp tank would be a great name for a show about entrepreneurs pitching their companies to like kind of shitty small time investors.

• 1:21:54Speaker 01

  So I'll give you $800 and a half eaten bag of Funyuns for 30% of your company.

• 1:22:01Speaker 02

  One shrimp is like, and for that reason I'm out. And then he just mul- he just malts.

• 1:22:05Speaker 01

  Shed your exoskeleton and skedaddle.

• 1:22:07Speaker 02

  I don't own a home. I have a fulfilling career as an embryologist with growth potential and a good salary. I also work on the side as a Spanish English medical interpreter.

• 1:22:17Speaker 01

  Get it? She's an embryologist, growth potential. Anyway, uh, what a cool career. Talk about a talent stack.

• 1:22:22Speaker 02

  I think you need to shed your exoskeleton and skedaddle with that dad joke you just hit us with.

• 1:22:27Speaker 01

  Uh, never.

• 1:22:28Speaker 02

  Earlier this year, I took a trip to Costa Rica and I fell in love with the country, the people and the culture. I know, I know, unique story, but I cried on the plane on my way home unwilling to leave. I've traveled to quite a few places and I've never felt more at home in a foreign country. I feel more myself speaking Spanish than English or even French, which is my native language. So here's the big thing. I want to move to Costa Rica.

• 1:22:57Speaker 01

  Ah, yes. Tale as old as time, song as old as rhyme, moving to Belize.

• 1:23:02Speaker 02

  It's Costa Rica, it's a different, different country.

• 1:23:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't care. I'm American. No, I just needed the meter to work.

• 1:23:06Speaker 02

  I've been in my current city most of my life. Almost all of my friends here in the US are transplants from different cities. I spent my twenties in a subpar relationship, staying put for a man with no ambition and no dreams. We divorced almost four years ago. I'm strongly feeling the pressure of time and I'm not getting any younger. I want to move away from my current city and try somewhere new before I get too old and settled here.

• 1:23:30Speaker 01

  Oh, I literally was about to say this exact same thing and didn't want to interrupt you. Hmm, yeah. Feeling the clock, man, I get it.

• 1:23:36Speaker 02

  My biggest fear is what if I reach 75 and never tried? I've already looked into working in my current field in Costa Rica and with my current certifications, bachelor's in biology, master's in genetics, Spanish language proficiency certification, Spanish medical interpreter certification, and four plus years of IVF experience. It's tough, but doable. And while I know my salary USD would be lower in Costa Rica, the cost of living is so much lower that I would be able to save more, even while making less on paper. I've looked into work visas in Costa Rica and getting one to work a physical job in the country is way tougher than obtaining a digital nomad visa. My other option would be to enter on a student visa. I am interested in getting my PhD.

• 1:24:21Speaker 02

  Is it too late for me to start a life in a different country? Is it feasible? Is it even a good idea? Should I explore work versus student visa options? What impact will this have on my career? What major hurdles am I looking at? And am I just throwing away comfort here for the unknown? Signed, hoping to turn Tico and debating whether to torpedo this life that's safe, but not quite neato in favor of one that is que bonito.

• 1:24:51Speaker 01

  Oh, big questions. So first of all, I totally get this feeling. I'm sure Gabe does too. Minus the whole putting down roots part, Tio's living on vegan yogurt from the grocery store and disposable cutlery over here. But we can all relate to feeling the call to adventure. It's very powerful.

• 1:25:06Speaker 02

  Especially Costa Rica, man, it's so beautiful. It's an amazing place.

• 1:25:10Speaker 01

  Right, it's the right mix of exoticism, but also livability, right? It feels like another universe, but there are so many foreigners and such good infrastructure. It's safe, it's accessible, you can actually picture living there. I've, I mean, been there. I think it's also pretty cool that you're willing to entertain such a huge life change. I am sure a lot of people cry on the plane home from Costa Rica. I don't know how many actually start researching visas and jobs. And if they do, it's probably once and they're like, whoa, yeah, no, this is crazy. What am I, I, I got stuff to do, I gotta go to the grocery store. It sounds like you also feel some healthy urgency to live your life to the fullest because of time, because of how you spent your time, this previous relationship. Also, just because YOLO. You don't want to be a pensioner going, oh, maybe I could have swum with the turtles in Costa Rica when I was young.

• 1:25:55Speaker 01

  Me and my shrimp, we all could have lived it up in Tamarindo. So I love that you're listening to that.

• 1:26:01Speaker 02

  Not easy to listen to that. I think the, the girlfriend from question one could take some notes from our friend here. But yeah, it's not easy. It's actually harder to listen to this voice sometimes in some way.

• 1:26:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it means uprooting your life in a massive way. So no, it's not too late to start a life in a different country. I'm not sure it's ever too late, although yeah, for most people it does get harder the older you get. The opportunity costs get higher, your energy for huge life changes goes down. And of course, there are certain practical realities like health and money and responsibilities and all that. But too late, I just, I think that's largely up to each person to decide what that is.

• 1:26:36Speaker 02

  Too late, too far, too much, too little for that matter. These are all partly, at least partly ideas, right?

• 1:26:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure. And she's already playing with those stories, which is cool. Plenty of people make a move like this and plenty of people do it in Costa Rica. So yeah, technically feasible. If you're determined enough, if you're patient enough, if you can tolerate a lot of effort and change and uncertainty. The hurdles you're looking at are visa and residence stuff, obviously. Career stuff, what you're going to do for work, housing, culture, language. Although you have a huge leg up there, speaking Spanish so well, although I feel like you can survive in places like Nozara with English at this point. And then there are the impacts on your career, which I know was one of your other questions. Obviously, we can't know what those will be, but it sounds like salary is the main one. Other ones might be closing doors at your current company, taking a step away from your home country,

• 1:27:28Speaker 01

  creating an unconventional professional story for yourself, missing out on a little bit of income and growth opportunities back home, which could come into play if you look for jobs in the future. And I'm guessing you know the other potential career impacts quite well. All those variables are definitely real, but they're all theoretically solvable or they're risks that you can mitigate with a smart approach.

• 1:27:49Speaker 02

  Or there are things that she might realize she doesn't actually care about as much as she thought. So they don't really end up mattering to her. I think the harder obstacles are often the intangibles, the uncertainty, the stress, the loneliness, the huge impact to your identity, your sense of belonging when you move somewhere. Although for you, maybe that impact will be both amazing and also challenging. Who knows? It might just be great for you, just given how connected you are to the country and the language. Securing residency in a new country is hard. Finding a place to live is hard, but it's these things that I think can be harder to cope with. You know, I've only microdosed these feelings on my travels and they were hard sometimes. So I can't even imagine moving permanently to a new country. I really, I admire anybody who does it.

• 1:28:30Speaker 02

  And also saying it out loud makes me, again, realize why the girlfriend from question one might not have wanted to do it. And so what I would make some room for is, and I say this not to dissuade you from this dream, only to make sure that you have the full picture. You went to Costa Rica on vacation. Costa Rica on vacation is incredible because Costa Rica is incredible and because vacation is incredible and it's not real life. You know, you didn't have to sit at the immigration office for six hours for three days in a row, filling out paperwork and waiting for them to call your name, only to find out that you, you filled out sección B wrong and you have to do it all over again. You know, you didn't have to negotiate with a landlord about the security deposit in a second language. And you didn't have to go out and make friends in that language for months until you find a friend group.

• 1:29:15Speaker 02

  And you didn't have to go to grocery shopping twice a week in stores where they don't have the stuff you like and where the labels are in a different language. It takes you three times as long, speaking from personal experience. You didn't have to have that feeling of, oh my God, what have I done? I'm thousands of miles away from everyone I know. Like I'm turtle adjacent, but I'm lonely, I'm scared, I'm bored, you know, I'm disoriented. And so I just want you to be prepared that that might be part of it if you go through with this. It's easy to go, I'm crying about leaving, that must mean I'm meant to live here. Maybe it does, but also you're crying in part for a version of the country, a version of this experience.

• 1:29:51Speaker 01

  So one thing you might want to consider doing is what if you planned one or two more trips there? You got some more data, you know, like you go back for a couple of weeks and instead of staying in hotels, you rent a little casita. Instead of going to restaurants every meal, you go to the market, you cook at home. Instead of taking Ubers or cabs, if that's something you do, you take the bus, you rent a bike, whatever scooter. When you're out and about, make an effort to talk to locals, Costa Ricans and expats. Ask them how they feel about moving there, what it was like, what they love about the country, what the hardest part is. And basically you want to push past that vacation Costa Rica and try to get as close as you can to the real Costa Rica, or at least the life that you would be living there.

• 1:30:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, kill the fantasy as quickly as possible. That's my advice.

• 1:30:33Speaker 01

  Yes, I think that would give her way more information. Here's another way of thinking about this, one I prefer a lot more. If you move to Costa Rica, you know, you're going to need a few things, namely a job and a visa. So what if you started reaching out to people, building the relationships you need? Let them open some doors for you. Rather than approaching this as a dream that will require certain practicals, why don't you start exploring the practicals and let them create the dream? Cause if you reach out to a bunch of clinics that might hire someone like you and you hit it off with one of them and they offer you a job, well, that's your job and probably your visa is sorted. Or if you connect with some interesting professors there and you find a PhD program that excites you, that could open the door. Or if you need a good immigration attorney who can help you, book some consults and just get the lay of the land.

• 1:31:16Speaker 01

  This is all sort of six minute networking adjacent stuff. Sixminutenetworking.com can help you kick the rust off and get this process started. And my experience is that when something is meant to be, those dots will start to connect through the actions that you are taking. I don't mean this in a woo woo way. It's not all going to happen on its own. Okay, I just mean that if you put in the legwork to build meaningful connections and you do that with intention and patience, things tend to start falling into place.

• 1:31:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, in a weird way, they start conspiring to make something happen when you put in the work. I totally agree. The other reason I like that approach is it might not necessarily lead to a clear path to moving there full time, but it'll still be time well spent. It might open other opportunities that, you know, she can't even imagine right now. For example, maybe she A clinic that wants to hire her for part of the year, or come and train their staff or something like that. Or maybe she gets medical translation work. And then she spends part of her year in Costa Rica and she has two lives. And that's just enough to scratch the itch. Or maybe she sends some passionate emails to some professors who seem interesting. And she stumbles into a teaching position and that becomes her job. Or, you know, sometimes when you just focus on the tactical and let go of the main objective

• 1:32:24Speaker 02

  or one definite timeline for this to happen, things work out even better somehow. And like Jordan said, you're going to have to go tactical eventually. So you might as well start there and see what happens rather than agonizing over whether the idea itself is legitimate.

• 1:32:38Speaker 01

  100% because also what makes the vision legitimate is whether the tactical stuff works out in the first place. And so that's what's ultimately going to make this a good idea. But one last thought, I wouldn't go the PhD route just to move to Costa Rica unless you're truly passionate about getting your doctorate. If you are, great, then the program would achieve two big objectives. That's how tons of people move to new countries. But a PhD is a huge commitment. It's expensive, it's time consuming. So if your heart isn't truly in a PhD program, if your career doesn't truly require it, I am not sure I'd make that my strategy, unless money and time are no object, of course. But I think there are plenty of other ways to get this visa if you're resourceful and determined enough.

• 1:33:20Speaker 02

  And yeah, in a big way, you would be throwing away quote unquote comfort for the unknown. That's what any adventure is. I guess my questions for you would be, what does throwing away comfort mean to you? Like, what's the difference between throwing something away and being very thoughtful and being willing to give it up to pursue the life that you want? And how important is comfort to you? That's another question. How much familiarity and stability would you be willing to give up if it allowed you to create a better life?

• 1:33:48Speaker 01

  Good questions. I wonder where that you're throwing all this away idea comes from.

• 1:33:52Speaker 02

  It probably comes from her legitimate appreciation for the life that she does have, even if it's not perfect in every way and it's not Costa Rica. But it also might come from a culture and who knows, maybe a family and a friend group in a context that explicitly or implicitly is telling her that hanging on to the life that she has is the responsible thing to do. And that if she gave it up to create a different one, that would be somehow reckless or even unappreciative or wasteful, you know? It can be sometimes, but again, how do we define these things? Who gets to decide? Is it responsible to hang on to a life that you're not excited about? And to ignore this call to a place that you are deeply connected to? Maybe from a certain perspective, financially, logistically, you can make that case.

• 1:34:35Speaker 02

  Although there are ways to make a big move that are decidedly not reckless, even if they're kind of extreme. So it's all in the planning. But from an existential perspective, like from the perspective of what do I want my life to be about? You know, how can I avoid feeling regret when I'm that 75 year old woman who wish she went and swam with the turtles? You could make the case that staying where you are, if you're unhappy there, that's irresponsible in the sense that you are not taking responsibility for this meaningful call for yourself.

• 1:35:04Speaker 01

  So what you're getting at is she might just want to unpack the assumptions underlying these questions because they run deep.

• 1:35:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. The funny thing is you often don't see those assumptions clearly or understand how much you really buy into them until you make a big move like this.

• 1:35:18Speaker 01

  So true. Until then, this is just kind of an intellectual exercise.

• 1:35:22Speaker 02

  Yeah. And that's important. Like you have to go through that phase, but she won't understand the full import until she pulls the trigger. I remember before I started nomading, which over a year ago now.

• 1:35:31Speaker 01

  Wow, has it been over a year?

• 1:35:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:35:33Speaker 01

  Went by pretty quick.

• 1:35:34Speaker 02

  A year and two months. Yeah, crazy. Before I left, I got to a point between, you know, the stress of packing up my apartment and the sadness of saying goodbye to my friends and family and realizing that I wouldn't have my studio and my fixed home anymore, all of that. I got to a point where I wasn't even really all that excited to leave. It was kind of funny. Like, I just knew that if I stayed, I couldn't live with myself. You know, the call to adventure was so clear and my duty to it felt so obvious that I just had to keep putting one foot in front of the other until it was happening. And it probably wasn't until like six months in that I began to see some of these cultural and psychological biases and assumptions more clearly. So I say all of this not to necessarily push our friend into moving.

• 1:36:19Speaker 02

  It's totally up to her. There are probably good reasons to stay and there are probably good reasons to go. And you could argue these things until the cows come home. But I think that's why it's so important to get clear with yourself about whether this is a mere desire or whether this is a true calling. You know, is this just like an interesting idea that would be kind of cool and fun? Or is this something more like a message from your soul saying, I feel compelled in a borderline mystical way to go out and venture forth and see what's out there for me? If it's the latter, and by the way, no shame if it isn't, but if it is, then nothing will stop you from making this happen. I believe that, nothing. If you are also clear with yourself about what values you organize your life around.

• 1:37:03Speaker 02

  So if you're not prepared to honor those values, like heeding the call to adventure and being willing to give up on some comfort and stability, then you'll be in conflict with yourself. And then yes, of course, you can easily chug along and make no changes as I did for several years, as I think many people do. But then you'll pay the psychological price somewhere else. So Costa Rica might not turn out to be the answer and maybe other answers present themselves or there are other cool paths to having the experiences that you want. But based on what you've shared, I don't think it's something you can afford to completely ignore.

• 1:37:35Speaker 01

  Well said, Gabe, and I totally agree while recognizing, of course, that everyone's life situations are different, but absolutely yes to heeding the call and all that, which is partly an intellectual exercise, partly a decidedly unintellectual one, which can be confusing sometimes. But I'll also say, just to make room for the opposite case, of course, you don't want to be the 75 year old with regrets. Wonderful. But you also don't want to find yourself at 75 going, wow, I blew up a great career because I mistook an incredible vacation for destiny. Sometimes great trips are just great trips. So that's another question that I would sit with. So I love that you had this powerful response to another country. I love that you're listening to it. But while you do that, I would also convert those feelings into action and see where they lead.

• 1:38:20Speaker 01

  I think that'll tell you at least 80% of whether this is your path. So buenos suerte, my friend. Excited to hear where you end up. And for the rest of you, go back and check out Imad Mostak, Chris Ryan and our Skeptical Sunday on the housing crisis, if you haven't heard those yet. Show notes and transcripts are on the website, advertisers, deals, ways to support the show, all at jordanharbinger.com/deals. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Gabe is on Insta at Gabriel Mizrahi. This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogerty, Ian Baird, Tadis Alauskas, and of course Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Consult a qualified professional before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others.

• 1:39:06Speaker 01

  Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn and we'll see you next time.

• 1:39:19Speaker 01

  A stolen Van Gogh may be worth millions, but the moment it leaves the museum, it becomes nearly impossible to sell. Arthur Brand, the real life Indiana Jones of the art world, reveals how masterpieces circulate among mob bosses, forgers and thieves, and how befriending his own art thief nemesis helped bring one home.

• 1:39:34Speaker 05

  Sometimes I think I'm the only civilian who's really trying to go out there and try to recover stolen art. The regular art market is like 70, 80 billion and part of that is illegally, you know? Art theft from museums, from private individuals, forgeries, illicit antiquities. In many countries, people dig in the ground, you know, or with a metal detector. It's quite a big thing and it's not surprising because there are a lot of art collectors in the world. Almost everybody has a painting or a little statue at his home. So it's a big market. And when there's a big market and a lot of money and it's not a real science, so it's not that difficult to fake something, you attract a certain kind of people.

• 1:40:19Speaker 05

  And that's who we are fighting. That shows you who the players are in this field. It's scary. They want you and me to believe it's about beauty, but it's not. It's only about greed. The bottom line in the art world is money. But generally said, 30% of all the artworks in the world are fake. So when we have a lead, the police or myself, it's very hard to prove that they have it in their possession. You can raid their homes, it's never there. They don't leave this stolen faggot under their bed. So the problem is if you raid their homes, you will not find it and they will burn it. There have been many examples of pieces that have never come back. It has always been there. I always say on Monday, art was invented. On Tuesday, the first art was stolen. On the third day, the first art was faked.

• 1:41:04Speaker 01

  Here are how one of the world's most wanted works of art ended up at his door in an Ikea bag smeared with blood on episode 1354 of The Jordan Harbinger Show with art detective Arthur Brand.