S1E13 Hostages

THE BLURB: After Joanne kidnaps John's two sons - instead of making them available for his six weeks summer vacation with them - John uses his espionage skills to track them all down. Hothead that he is, rather than wait for the legal system to work to his benefit, John nearly ruins everything by iniating a "hostage situation" of his own. At work, John's time in the penalty box is about to get truncated - as more and more Agency resources get focused on a terrorist quickly growing in prominence on the Agency's radar: Osama bin Laden. SHOW NOTES For more great podcasts like Dead Drop, please visit https://costardandtouchstone.com/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hey, it's Adam Grant from TED's Rethinking Podcast. As businesses scale, success depends on how well knowledge is captured, shared, and kept up to date. Camtasia Pro turns teams' expertise into engaging training, onboarding, and documentation. No professional editing experience required. With the industry's best screen recording, video editing, and AI-powered workflows, you can train faster and boost operational efficiency. Get over $100 off your first year at camtasia pro.com and start building a smarter way to educate customers, onboard employees, and ensure valuable expertise is shared across teams.

• 0:33Speaker 01

  I've got big news. I switched to Verizon and got the new iPhone 18 Pro. Shh. I can keep my old phone. And I also get the latest iPhone every year. Shh. Anything else? Verizon let me choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on them. Everybody, listen up. Shh. Switch to Verizon and get the new iPhone 18 Pro now. No trade-in needed. And the latest iPhone every year with Simplicity Plan. Plus, choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on us. Simplicity Plan with Simplicity Pro required. Plan and device payment purchase are separate agreements with separate terms. Service plan for Watch or iPad required. Additional terms apply for all offers.

• 1:04Speaker 02

  If you've felt stuck trying to lose weight, you're not alone. Enter Weight Loss by Hers. It's designed to support you in reaching your goals. And Hers now offers access to an affordable range of FDA-approved GLP-1 medications, including the Wegovy pill and the Wegovy pen. Even better, with a range of affordable GLP-1 options, Hers makes it simple to find an approach that fits your needs and your budget, if eligible. You'll get a treatment plan personalized to you and unlimited dosage changes as needed. It's weight loss designed to work with your life. Ready to reach your goals? Visit forhers.com/eligible to get personalized, affordable care that gets you. That's F-O-R-H-E-R-S dot com slash eligible. Forhers.com/eligible.

• 1:48Speaker 02

  Weight Loss by Hers is not available in all 50 states. Wegovy is the registered trademark of Novo Nordisk AS. To get started and learn more, including important safety information, Wegovy clinical study information, and restrictions, visit forhers.com.

• 2:05Speaker 03

  This podcast, it's a Coster and Touchstone production.

• 2:15John Kiriakou?

  Hi, I'm John Kiriyaki and welcome to Dead Drop, What Makes a Spy Tick? This is another episode in the series What Makes This Spy Tick? Before we get down to it, though, I want to thank you. That's a very, very big thank you, seriously, for listening to this story. As I record this, we just got a surge of new listeners. I'm glad you're here. Your likes, your kind reviews, ratings, and recommendations have all helped more and more people find us, and I'm really deeply appreciative. I'd say we were doing this on a shoestring, but shoestrings cost money. We're doing it for less than that. As I've said from the start, this began and remains a labor of absolute love, of storytelling above all, and thank you for being a part of it.

• 3:00John Kiriakou?

  Please keep it up, especially since the best parts of this story are still ahead of us. This episode is called Hostages. It starts exactly where the last episode left off. The divorce decree between Joanne and me stipulated that we each got six weeks with our two sons during the summer. Though I was obligated to give Joanne a week's notice if I wanted to take the boys out of Virginia, where I lived, I had told her a month in advance that my parents and I planned to take the boys to Disney World. Apparently, me getting to parent our sons, even just for a few weeks, triggered her. As I set out from DC after work on Friday afternoon, driving west toward my parents'

• 3:42John Kiriakou?

  home in western Pennsylvania, fully expecting that we'd all be heading south the next morning, bound for Florida, I got a call from my mom telling me that the boys were, well, they were missing. So was Joanne. I actually was so upset on that long drive home that I had to pull over twice to throw up from the stress. But instead of going to Ohio to see if there was anybody home or not, I took my mom's word for it and I went to my folks' house in Pennsylvania instead. So I got there, my parents were waiting up for me, and they were full of good advice. I mean, the good advice was, "I do tend to be a hothead," and they wanted me just to Relax, take it easy, it's 10 o'clock at night, there's nothing you can do.

• 4:27John Kiriakou?

  I'm really not sure what I would have done if left to my own devices. I probably would have tried to break the door down and search the house myself, which would have only gotten me arrested. What I ended up doing was something I probably shouldn't have done. I laid in bed tossing and turning for a couple of hours and then around midnight, I just got in the car and drove to the house in Warren, Ohio, and I just sat down the street from it doing my own surveillance. It was clear there was nobody in the house. It was clear. I started the car and drove 36 miles back to my mom and dad's house. It was another 40 minutes to think about what I wanted to do next. There was a quirk in Joanne's personality.

• 5:08John Kiriakou?

  Joanne absolutely hated being told what to do. Oftentimes, she would just respond to things in ways that were very difficult to understand and that ended up biting her in the future. That's what happened in this case. The judge had said, "You get six weeks with the kids, he gets six weeks with the kids." And she said, "No, I don't care if you're the judge, I'm not doing that." In fact, she was even reprimanded in court one day because she would always say, "My children," when speaking about the kids. She would never say, "Our children," she would only say, "My children." Finally, the judge said to her at one point, "If you keep saying 'my children,' I'm gonna hold you in contempt and I'm gonna fine you $100."

• 5:53John Kiriakou?

  And then she backed off, but she hated being told what to do. And she didn't care if it was a family court judge saying, "You have to let him have his time with the kids." Saturday morning, the first thing I did when I woke up was I called Mary Jane Stevens to tell her, and she says, "Oh my God, don't fly off the handle and do something crazy." I said, "No, no, no, no, I'm not gonna do that. I'm relying on your legal advice." I called my boss and I said, "I've got this situation." I explained what had happened. I said, "I need a week off." He said, "Okay, go for it. Do what you need. Come back when you're ready." I had more vacation saved than I could use in a lifetime.

• 6:34John Kiriakou?

  I decided that I would use my CIA training to try and track them down. And I said to myself, "If I were Joanne and I wanted to hide from me, where would I hide?" I came up with a list of four or five different people. Relatives, semi-distant relatives, family friends. Every day of that next week, I did surveillance on each one of those sites. On the fifth day, I saw her car at the house of her mother's best friend. She lived in a house that was too big for an eighty-something-year-old woman. And I knew that she had an apartment in the basement. And I thought, "Oh, well, there they are. She's in the basement apartment with the kids."

• 7:18John Kiriakou?

  I went home. I called Mary Jane Stevens. I said, "I think I located them." She said, "Okay, we'll go to court on Monday. We'll get this taken care of." Well, I was a hothead and I didn't want to wait to go to court until Monday. I thought to myself, "You know, there's one thing about Joanne. She's irrationally religious." And hiding or not hiding, I bet you any money she's gonna go to church on Sunday. Church started at nine o'clock. I waited until ten o'clock. And then I went in and sat in the very last pew. Now, this is the church where my mom and dad were married. My mom was baptized. My kids were baptized. Joanne and I were married. I knew everybody in that church.

• 8:01John Kiriakou?

  I sit in the very back pew and I look around. There they are. I saw them. It was Joanne, her mother, her father, and the older of our two kids, Chris, sitting in the very first pew. Chris was eight years old at the time. Constantine, our second son, was five. And he was a little fidgety, I learned later. And so he was sitting with another relative up in the choir loft. There's a point in the Greek Orthodox Liturgy where everybody kneels. You kneel during the consecration of the holy gifts, the communion. And as soon as everybody knelt, I walked right up that center aisle. I said, "Chris, come with me."

• 8:45John Kiriakou?

  I picked him up and carried him, and I walked very quickly. I didn't run, but I walked right out the door. A friend of mine was waiting outside. I put Chris in the car. I jumped in the car and I told him, "Take off." It was the only time I had ever seen what I later described to my parents as terror, panic, in Joanne's eyes. She ran out. She almost got to the car as we took off. Her mother was about 30 feet behind her. Her father, for whatever reason, never came out of the church. I figured she would call the chief of police personally. He was a family friend. He was Greek-American. He was probably in the church too, at the time. I told my friend to take back roads, back to my parents' house,

• 9:30John Kiriakou?

  because I figured they would call the state police out and they would be on the interstate, which is the fastest way home. Chris panicked. He was staring at me like he had seen a ghost. And later, he told me that his mother had told him and his brother that they wouldn't see me anymore, that I had been killed in a car accident. And so, when he turned around and looked at me as I was walking up that center aisle, he thought I was a ghost, and that's why he panicked. I'm in the car for five minutes and the police chief calls. And very calmly, he says, "Bring the boy back to the church." "Not a chance, chief. I know you're friends with her. I've heard you're dating her." Which ended up being true.

• 10:14John Kiriakou?

  "I know that this is a setup and that you're gonna arrest me as soon as I get back to the church, and I haven't broken the law. This is my custody time, and I don't see you arresting her." This local yokel police officer gets on the phone and he says, he's gonna be the good cop. "Hey buddy, bring the child back to the church and we can talk this out." "Son, I have nothing to say to you. You're gonna cop-splain to me the way this is gonna go?" I'm telling you, this is my time with the kids. I have a message for you to pass to the chief and to my ex-wife. I want my second son delivered to my parents' house in the next hour. And I hung up on him. As soon as we crossed the state line into Pennsylvania, I breathed more easily.

• 10:54John Kiriakou?

  I called Mary Jane Stevens and I said, "Mary Jane, don't yell at me, but here's what I just did." And I told her, and she's like, "Oh, man, I told you." And I said, "I'm so angry about all this, I just couldn't help myself." She says, "Okay, well, certainly, we're gonna be in court on Monday. You might get arrested there." Sure enough, they file a felony charge of aggravated menacing. Her mother said that "I grabbed Chris and then I stopped and shouted to the entire congregation, "If anybody tries to stop me, it's gonna be a bloodbath in here." Yeah, that literally never happened. The only words I spoke were, "Chris, come with me." Of course, that charge ended up being dropped even before we got to court.

• 11:39John Kiriakou?

  Sure enough, on Monday, they moved for an emergency hearing. I called Mary Jane. I said, "I'm gonna be arrested as soon as I cross the state line, so what do I do?" And she said that she had spoken to the chief, and the chief gave her his personal assurance that I would not be arrested and that they would let me go to the hearing. So I said, "Okay, I'm gonna take him at his word. If he's lying, I'm gonna trash him in the Greek community and I'm gonna be relentless about it." So I went to court, I showed up at court, and everything was fine. The judge, who I really liked and respected, the judge said, "I can't believe you two would end up like this. Did I just not say, a week and a half ago, "Six weeks for the father, six weeks for the mother?" And I said, "It is my six weeks, Your Honor,

• 12:22John Kiriakou?

  "And I'm out $4,000 non-refundable dollars for a trip to Disney." And she said, "That's a civil matter. But, just in the interest of getting both sides to calm down and back off, she's not gonna hold anybody in contempt. She's not gonna point the finger at anybody, but she said, 'Listen to my words, as if they are written in stone. Six weeks for the father, six..."

• 12:47John Kiriakou?

  Weeks for the mother. What I will do, she said, is I'm deducting a week from the mother's time and giving it to the father. And I said, thank you, your honor. And that's how we left it. We never went to Disney that summer. We went the following summer. The rest of that summer, I just tried to patch something together that was going to keep the kids engaged. Later on the day of court, my father drove to a diner called State Line Diner. It's right on the Pennsylvania, Ohio state line. And that's where Joanne's father turned over Constantine. And so we were reunited there. It was a hostage exchange. It was like the bridge of spies.

• 13:24Speaker 02

  If you felt stuck trying to lose weight, you're not alone. Enter Weight Loss by Hers. It's designed to support you in reaching your goals. And Hers now offers access to an affordable range of FDA-approved GLP-1 medications, including the Wegovy pill and the Wegovy pen. Even better, with a range of affordable GLP-1 options, Hers makes it simple to find an approach that fits your needs and your budget. If eligible, you'll get a treatment plan personalized to you and unlimited dosage changes as needed. It's weight loss designed to work with your life. Ready to reach your goals? Visit forhers.com/eligible to get personalized, affordable care that gets you. That's F-O-R-H-E-R-S dot com slash eligible. Forhers.com/eligible.

• 14:08Speaker 02

  Weight Loss by Hers is not available in all 50 states. Wegovy is the registered trademark of Novo Nordisk AS. To get started and learn more, including important safety information, Wegovy clinical study information, and restrictions, visit forhers.com.

• 14:23Speaker 01

  I've got big news. I switched to Verizon and got the new iPhone 18 Pro. Shh. I can keep my old phone. And I also get the latest iPhone every year. Shh, anything else? Verizon let me choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on them. Everybody listen up. Shh. Switch to Verizon and get the new iPhone 18 Pro now. No trade-in needed. And the latest iPhone every year with Simplicity Plan. Plus, choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on us. Simplicity Plan with Simplicity Pro required. Plan and device payment purchase are separate agreements with separate terms. Service plan for Watch or iPad required. Additional terms apply for all offers.

• 14:57Speaker 05

  I'm David Swanson and I invite you to check out my new podcast, Just the Photographer, about the 40 years I've spent as a photojournalist, shooting everything from war zones to natural disasters to red carpets, and everything in between. While my photos can tell you what it looked like standing in those dangerous places, taking news photos, they can't tell you what it felt like. That's what this podcast is here to do. Here are some clips from the first episode to give you a taste. I wish I could unsee some of the terrible things I've seen. The very worst things that human beings can do to each other. In 1992 Bosnia was going on and I thought that would be the first time I'd attempt a war. I can't remember which book it was,

• 15:42Speaker 05

  but there was a quote that war is a crucible of emotion. The best and the worst. If you're gonna be a photographer, a photojournalist, why would you not want to go to a place like that? I was on that bridge the next day. I can honestly say that was one of the most nerve-wracking times of my life. Tracer bullets, which I think are every third or fourth shot, so that means there were four times as many bullets in the air, started flying left and right. A guy named Deuce, but his real name is Charles, laid on my back, on my backpack, and used my backpack as a platform for his weapon.

• 16:17Speaker 06

  So they told me, "You have to leave. We have a big screwdriver." And he said, "I'm gonna put that screwdriver in your chest."

• 16:29Speaker 05

  As dangerous as it was, Muthaz and I laughed our heads off. There's a certain romance to it.

• 16:38Speaker 05

  For me, making art requires duress, and I don't know why. Or maybe I do know, and this podcast is my way of figuring it out. Either way, I hope you'll join me on this journey as I tell you what it was like standing in dangerous places and witnessing them with my camera. New episodes start dropping Fridays, starting August 1st. Subscribe to stay in the loop. That's Just the Photographer with David Swanson. Stories my photos can't tell you.

• 17:08John Kiriakou?

  At the end of my week in Pennsylvania, my mom and dad went back to Virginia with me and the kids. I signed them up for day camp and we would do day trips on the weekends. We took another week off and went to LA to visit my brother and we ended up having a fun summer. Thank goodness the events in Ohio didn't have any negative impact on my career. That wasn't just luck. It was literally every time something happened, I would write it up as a memo for the Office of Security in the CIA's Counterterrorism Center and I would end every single memo with one sentence, "I am willing to be polygraphed on the above." It turned out to be no problem at all, thank God. In the meantime, I get

• 17:53John Kiriakou?

  back to work and there's real work to be done. I'm working in this branch doing training, mostly in the Middle East, a little bit in East Asia, and things are starting to heat up a little bit. I'm instructed to go to a Middle Eastern country that I really, really enjoy. I go out there, when it's Joanne's time for her six weeks, I go out there for six weeks. I stay in this fantastic hotel, I'm making per diem money hand over fist. These Arabs just love me, we're having fun in the training, I get to work with this legendary officer, just having a really good time. I'm getting ready to leave the Middle East, I get a cable saying, "Don't come straight home, go to Rome, we want you to check this thing out in Rome." So I go to Rome and meet with a colleague there and

• 18:36John Kiriakou?

  we do this little thing together. And then I fly back to headquarters. Before I go out to the Middle East, I invite these Arabs to come to headquarters. This was something that we did all the time. We would do these literally every day. You invite your counterparts to come to CIA headquarters, you give them a day of briefings, you give them a photo opportunity with the director, you exchange gifts, and then you take them out to a fancy dinner at a traditional American steakhouse. The next day, you do it with another group from another country. On July the 6th, 2001, I had one of these groups from the Middle East. These were all mid-level guys. All at the major lieutenant, colonel and colonel level.

• 19:20John Kiriakou?

  I set up a full day of briefings for them. Well, one of those briefings, one of the first briefings was about 10 o'clock in the morning, was with a very junior analyst from CTC, the Counterterrorism Center, who covered Al Qaeda. I didn't know any more about Al Qaeda than any American, you know, what I had seen in the papers. It wasn't my issue. I didn't work it. I didn't have any sources that I was running on Al Qaeda. Well, it came time for the analyst to arrive. Instead of the analyst arriving, Kofir Black, the director of the CIA's Counterterrorism Center and the director of operations for the Osama bin Laden unit called Alex Station, they showed up. I was so shocked, I jumped up out of my chair.

• 20:04John Kiriakou?

  And I said, oh, gentlemen, allow me to introduce Kofir Black. Mr. Black is the director of the CIA's Counterterrorism Center. And this is so and so. She is the chief of operations for Osama bin Laden unit, which we call Alex Station here. They, you know, nodded politely and Kofir sat down. He started off by saying, something terrible is going to happen. We don't know exactly what, and we don't know exactly where.

• 20:34Speaker 00

  Hey, it's Adam Grant from Ted's Rethinking Podcast. As businesses scale, success depends on how well knowledge is captured, shared and kept up to date. Camtasia Pro turns teams' expertise into engaging training, onboarding and documentation. No professional editing experience required. With the industry's best screen recording, video editing and AI-powered workflows, you can train faster and boost operational efficiency. Get over $100 off your first year at camtasia pro.com and start building a smarter way to educate customers, onboard employees and ensure valuable expertise is shared across teams.

• 21:07Speaker 02

  If you've felt stuck trying to lose weight, you're not alone. Enter Weight Loss by Hers. It's designed to support you in reaching your goals. And Hers now offers access to an affordable range of FDA-approved GLP-1 medications, including the Wegovy pill and the Wegovy pen. Even better, with a range of affordable GLP-1 options, Hers makes it simple to find an approach that fits your needs and your budget. If eligible, you'll get a treatment plan personalized to you and unlimited dosage changes as needed. It's weight loss designed to work with your life. Ready to reach your goals? Visit forhers.com/eligible to get personalized, affordable care that gets you. That's F-O-R-H-E-R-S dot com slash eligible. Forhers.com/eligible.

• 21:52Speaker 02

  Weight Loss by Hers is not available in all 50 states. Wegovy is the registered trademark of Novo Nordisk AS. To get started and learn more, including important safety information, Wegovy clinical study information, and restrictions, visit forhers.com.

• 22:08John Kiriakou?

  But we believe that it will be an attack against the United States of an unprecedented scale. He said, "We are hearing chatter from the Al Qaeda training camps, where camp commanders are on the phone with their students, and they're crying and telling them, 'I'll see you in paradise.' We're hearing talk using code words for a massive attack. The honey salesman is coming with vast quantities of honey. There's going to be a great football match. There's going to be an enormous wedding." These are all code words for a massive attack. "We just don't know when and where. So I'm begging you," he says, "if you have any sources inside Al Qaeda, please help us."

• 22:53John Kiriakou?

  And they just sat there and looked at him. And then he stood up, he shook their hands, and he walked out. I was shaken by that briefing. At the end of the day, I sent them back to their hotel. I said, "I'll pick you up at 7 o'clock. We'll go to the steakhouse." But I went over to Kovar's office to thank him for taking the time to come and talk to us. I mean, this is a guy that is meeting with the president every day or every other day, and he's making time to come to John's little... Little liaison class? I said, Kofor, I've got to ask you, I don't work on Al Qaeda. Did you say that just for their benefit? Or were you serious? And he said, oh, I was deadly serious. Something terrible is going to happen. Well, a couple of weeks later, I fly out to the Middle East and I'm there for six weeks.

• 23:35John Kiriakou?

  Stop in Rome on the way back to do this thing that they wanted me to do. And I fly back. On the morning of September 11th, 2001, Kofor and I are scheduled to see Condoleezza Rice at the White House at nine o'clock. The reason that we were going to the White House is quaint at this point. There is a minor, little-known government agency called the Government Printing Office, GPO. It's located on Capitol Hill. They were preparing to print a volume of declassified cables called Foreign Relations

• 24:14John Kiriakou?

  of the United States, Greece-Turkey-Cypress, 1949 to 1967. Now, they're probably only going to print five or 10 copies of this thing. Nobody's ever going to read it unless there's some PhD candidate who needs to examine one specific cable. But three of these old cables identified CIA sources who were still alive. And there's an obscure law in this country that if the US government outs the identity of a recruited CIA source, we have to offer that person citizenship and resettlement in the United States. These people are like 100 years old at this point.

• 24:59John Kiriakou?

  But we thought it would be easier and cheaper if we went to Condi and asked her to just pull these three cables out of the volume. Nobody would miss them. Nobody would know that they were supposed to be there in the first place. Just pull them. So at about 8:15, I get a call at my desk from the driver saying, I'm at the east entrance and I'm ready to take you to the White House. I walk over to Kofor's office to tell him that our car is ready to go to the White House. Now, these were the days before you could watch TV on your computer. So Kofor's secretary had a little tiny TV on her desk. And I walked over there, she's watching the TV, and one of the towers of the World Trade Center is burning. I said, "What happened to the World Trade Center?"

• 25:44Speaker 01

  "A plane flew into it."

• 25:46John Kiriakou?

  And because I'm an idiot sometimes, I said, "You know what? That happened once before. In 1930 or 31, a bomber flew into the Empire State Building. But it was really foggy and heavy rain that day. It's so crystal clear today. How can you not see that you're flying into the World Trade Center?" And just as the words came out of my mouth, the second plane hit the second tower.

• 26:12John Kiriakou?

  Neither one of us reacted. And she finally turned to me and said, "Did you see that? Or did I imagine it?" And I ran back to my office and shouted, "Guys! Two planes just hit both towers of the World Trade Center. I think we're under attack." We all ran back up to Kover's office. There were televisions hanging from the ceiling, and each one of them was tuned to a different network. We had CNN and MSNBC. I don't think there was a Fox yet. Maybe there was, I don't recall. But there was BBC and Canal+ and the Russian Channel and channels from all over the place. Everybody gathers up there. I'm talking about maybe 150 people who all worked in this big bullpen that was the Counterterrorism Center.

• 26:57John Kiriakou?

  There's complete silence. But all I could think of was, "This is what Kover was talking about." This was the attack that he was talking about.

• 27:08John Kiriakou?

  In the next episode of Dead Drop, what makes this spy tick? It's game on. Like the day after Pearl Harbor, everyone wanted to be a part of the war effort, especially me. But actual wars demand actual warriors, and alas, I wasn't the military guy. That would hinder me for a little while, but as you'll hear, eventually, I found a way around that roadblock.

• 27:31John Kiriakou?

  For understandable reasons, 9/11 has become mythic in every one of our minds. We all remember exactly where we were when it began to unfold. But sometimes when we do that to moments as historical as 9/11, we stop looking at them. In a way, we take them for granted. In doing that, we can forget why they matter to us. 9/11 really did matter to us. It really mattered to me. An awful lot of what happened to me afterward flowed directly from what happened, not just on that day, but in all the bits and pieces that led up.

• 28:06Speaker 01

  I've got big news. I switched to Verizon and got the new iPhone 18 Pro. Shh. I can keep my old phone and I also get the latest iPhone every year. Shh, anything else? Verizon let me choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on them. Everybody listen up. Switch to Verizon and get the new iPhone 18 Pro now. No trade in needed and the latest iPhone every year with Simplicity Plan. Plus, choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on us. Simplicity Plan with Simplicity Pro required. Plan and device payment purchase are separate agreements with separate terms. Service plan for watch or iPad required. Addition terms apply for all offers.

• 28:36Speaker 00

  Hey, it's Adam Grant from Ted's Rethinking Podcast. As businesses scale, success depends on how well knowledge is captured, shared, and kept up to date. Camtasia Pro turns teams' expertise into engaging training, onboarding, and documentation. No professional editing experience required. With the industry's best screen recording, video editing, and AI-powered workflows, you can train faster and boost operational efficiency. Get over $100 off your first year at camtasia pro.com and start building a smarter way to educate customers, onboard employees, and ensure valuable expertise is shared across teams.

• 29:10Speaker 07

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• 29:42John Kiriakou?

  To that day. The devil really is in the details and I want to share with you as many of those details as I can. Well, as many as I'm allowed to, anyway. If you enjoy this podcast, please check out my other podcasts and YouTube shows. There's D-Program, Monday through Friday mornings at 9 o'clock Eastern on Rumble and YouTube, and also on YouTube, Deep Focus. We drop those about twice a week. Thanks again for listening. Until next time, I'm John Kiriakou. Dead Drop is written by John Kiriakou and Alan Katz. Costart and Touchstone Productions produces the podcast, and John Kiriakou, Alan Katz, and Nick Mechanic are its executive producers.

• 30:37Speaker 03

  This podcast, it's a Costart and Touchstone production.