Pod Insights Jocko Podcast Jocko Underground: The Reasons Your Tactical Moves are Ruining Your Strategy About this episode Know the enemies of strategic thinking. Be sure you're thinking strategically.
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Jocko Willink? This is the Jocko Underground Podcast, number five with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening. And also joining us tonight is, good deal, Dave Berke. Good evening, Dave. All right, so we've been getting crazy, talking about competing. But tonight, the opening of the podcast tonight, I kind of went a little bit deep on thinking strategic versus thinking tactical. So I was thinking about that. And I started thinking about, look, it's so obvious, isn't it so obvious that we should be thinking strategic all the time? Isn't it so obvious? It seems so obvious, right? Why isn't it happening? So I started thinking about, okay, what are the enemies?
0:46 Jocko Willink? What are the enemies of strategic thinking? What are they? What can they be? They've got to be out there because otherwise we would just be thinking strategic all the time. But if everyone was thinking strategic all the time, the world would be an entirely different place. And certainly, every individual's world would be an entirely different place.
1:09 Jocko Willink? So what's causing it?
1:12 Jocko Willink? First thing that comes to my mind, ego.
1:17 Jocko Willink? Why is that? What is ego? How does ego drive us to not think strategically? Well, because our ego is that thing that is
1:28 Jocko Willink? not comfortable with giving a tactical victory to someone else. I mean, so I would rather win an argument with Dave Berke, hurt our relationship, make him look bad, devolve our business relationship, our personal, I'd rather do all that because I want to win an argument with Dave. Why? Because that's my ego talking.
1:55 Jocko Willink? That is such a driver of doing dumb things. You know, what's really crazy is when people do, when people do dumb things based on their ego and it actually, it actually.
2:11 Jocko Willink? You can destroy like your whole company, right? You can have a whole company that gets destroyed by ego. You can do, I mean, you certainly can have people, and there's examples of battles that have taken place where ego caused defeat. And cost, you know, hundreds or thousands of people their lives. Based just on ego. Just on, hey, we can take these guys. Hey, my plan is gonna like, that happens. That's a real thing. So when we talk about that, I also want to talk about, okay, so how do you, how do you defeat this enemy of, how do you defeat this enemy? Of strategic thinking? If it's your ego, how do you, how do you do that? Well, to me, you've got to.
2:56 Jocko Willink? And this is the answer, I'm gonna say this answer over and over again. You gotta detach and you gotta think about what you're doing. Which.
3:05 Jocko Willink? What a novel idea to actually detach and think about what you're doing.
3:12 Jocko Willink? And oddly enough, this gives you this massive strategic advantage if you can take a four inch step backwards. Detach from your ego and look at what's actually playing out.
3:26 Jocko Willink? If you could do that, you're, you're like infinitely better. Than you are if your ego is all wrapped up in this decision that you're making.
3:36 Jocko Willink? It's crazy that it would come to that.
3:40 Speaker 01 You ever seen The Breakfast Club? Remember that movie?
3:42 Jocko Willink? Yes.
3:43 Speaker 01 It's old school, right? You see now, right? That's your jam. The, can't remember the part when he was like, hey, uh.
3:49 Jocko Willink? I made, we want like early quarantine. You know, when it was like, well, what are we doing? You know? And the kids were home, my daughters were home for college, from college and all that, and we're sitting around. So we, I said, okay, we're gonna watch some eighties movies. I went old school. Breakfast Club was on the list. It was one of the few. That kind of passed muster cuz some of the other movie I'll tell you cuz I have a daughter that she was 10 when quarantine kicked off and all that. Have you have you watched ET like recently?
4:26 Speaker 02 Like 10 years ago, maybe. Wait, what do you mean it passed muster?
4:30 Jocko Willink? Like like like the family was like, oh, that was pretty good. Yeah, it was okay. Cuz now they there was a time where there's like, we're not watching anymore. You're stupid movies. As a matter of fact, my youngest daughter, when I say when I say my youngest daughter, oh, do you want to watch a movie? She's like, from what year?
4:47 Jocko Willink? And ET is one of the ones that sort of put the nail in the coffin on 80s movies. Have you, Dave, have you ever seen you seen ET?
4:53 Speaker 02 I've totally seen ET.
4:55 Jocko Willink? Have you seen it in the last three years, five years?
4:57 Speaker 02 Yes.
4:59 Jocko Willink? Did it pass muster?
5:02 Speaker 02 It hasn't it hasn't been watched since and is one of those that like the iTunes scenario, I'm like, I'm just gonna buy it cuz once they see it, they're gonna watch it a bunch. Nobody has gone back to.
5:11 Jocko Willink? One shot.
5:12 Speaker 02 And I was I hadn't seen it in probably 20 something years, but I was so sure that I wasn't gonna waste my time with a rental. I'm buying it because this is gonna be on repeat. Nobody's gone back to that well.
5:22 Jocko Willink? That you and I walked into that ambush the exact same way.
5:27 Speaker 02 It's crazy.
5:27 Jocko Willink? I 100 cuz I don't I don't you said you haven't seen it in 20 years. I saw it in the theater.
5:33 Speaker 02 Yeah.
5:33 Jocko Willink? So whatever year it came out, 1983. So I was like 12 years old. I went to the theater and watched it. And I remember it being this moving story.
5:45 Jocko Willink? And I was expecting and and my my wife, you know, she's a let's say she will she's no she will get emotional during a movie, right? You know? She'll get sad and my youngest daughter is kind of the same way, you know, you'll see the tears welling up. So I'm thinking, oh, you know, we're taking down this little emotional thing and I'm kind of thinking, well, you know, I better check myself too cuz you know, when ET is going home, you know, I don't want to be the I don't want to be the guy that's breaking out.
6:13 Speaker 01 During E T.
6:15 Jocko Willink? Bro, it was hard. My, my youngest daughter, it was hard for her to even kind of watch the whole thing. And part of it is the freaking special effects nowadays. I mean, when you see E T looking like a, looking like a, looking like a, someone's like holding it behind and shaking it to make it look like it's walking. Super lame, super lame. But what, but, and that was bad. But then actually what was weird to me is like the story wasn't as good as I remember. And that movie was a blockbuster. It was a blockbuster. Why was it a blockbuster? Special effects allegedly? Cause I mean, damn.
6:54 Speaker 01 Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. I got no answer at this time. But yeah, that the E T, the, the kids nowadays, they're, well, my daughter, she's seven. Um, where she'll like, you know, they can, they're at that age and older, they can identify current special effects and old school special effects.
7:14 Jocko Willink? Well, you make those little movies with your kids in them. And so they're like, why are we watching a, why are we watching a puppet?
7:20 Speaker 01 Yeah, exactly.
7:21 Jocko Willink? Move all super whack.
7:23 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah.
7:24 Jocko Willink? So E T didn't really pass the muster.
7:31 Jocko Willink? Dang, Ferris Bueller's Day Off didn't really pass muster. And even I was sort of like, wow, I thought that, I remember, I remember these things as they were pretty good, right?
7:44 Jocko Willink? Uh, and, and, and Breakfast Club, breakfast, and there was a, I'm trying to think of some other ones that, that we watched, but, but Breakfast Club
7:54 Jocko Willink? passed muster.
7:55 Speaker 01 Interesting.
7:55 Jocko Willink? Passed muster.
7:56 Speaker 01 Dang it, not Ferris Bueller, huh?
7:58 Jocko Willink? Yeah, I know.
7:59 Speaker 01 That's weird. Ferris Bueller seemed like that was the adventure.
8:02 Jocko Willink? Yeah, it did seem that way. So you were referring to Breakfast Club?
8:06 Speaker 01 Yeah.
8:06 Jocko Willink? Do you even have any idea why you're referring to Breakfast Club?
8:08 Speaker 01 Yes, I do. It's a very critical point that you, you brought up actually about how your ego, you can watch as someone's ego just drives their whole interests into the ground and, and defeats them, all of them, completely to zero. So Breakfast Club, there was a time where he came and he, and, uh, what's it, what's the principal or whatever? The guy's name Vernon, I think, or something like this?
8:34 Jocko Willink? But I, I don't know, I can't remember.
8:36 Speaker 01 He came in and he was like, you know, said his thing and he's like, I don't know.
8:41 Jocko Willink? Yeah, screw you.
8:42 Speaker 01 Do you have any more questions? And he said, yeah, I have a question. He's like, does Barry Manilow know that you raided his wardrobe?
8:48 Jocko Willink? Yeah.
8:48 Speaker 01 And he said, I'll give you the answer to that question next Saturday.
8:51 Jocko Willink? Yeah.
8:52 Speaker 01 Right? Like you got another Saturday detention. And um, then he kept going with it, right? Like, kind of like, whatever. Well, I forget exactly his response to that one was. And he's like, he's like, oh, oh, no, he's like, I, I'm not free or something like that. And he's like, oh, I'm free. Anyway, he goes, he's like, you want to keep going?
9:09 Jocko Willink? And he's like, and he ends up with the horns.
9:11 Speaker 01 Yeah.
9:11 Jocko Willink? With the fingers. Two months, Bender. Two months, Bender. I got you for two months.
9:16 Speaker 01 To the point where, and like, just like how you said, you can watch people as they just do it. And meanwhile, so the girl.
9:23 Jocko Willink? I mean, I was referring to, I was referring to battles where thousands of people have been killed because of someone's ego. But Bender did get two months worth of detention.
9:30 Speaker 01 Same exact deal. Same exact deal. So Molly Ringwald, Ringwald, yeah.
9:36 Jocko Willink? Yeah.
9:36 Speaker 01 She's like, she's straight up sitting there saying, hey, stop. She's like, cut it out. Dude, I can't watch this anymore, you know? And brother, that's how, right? Everyone's like, can see it. And brother, the guy wasn't detached at all. His ego was just flaring up, front lines all day. Two months of detention, man.
9:51 Jocko Willink? Two months. I got you for two months.
9:53 Speaker 01 You mess with the bull, you get the horns.
9:57 Jocko Willink? All right. So we got to watch out for our ego. Our ego is a enemy of strategic thinking. You could end up with two months of Saturday detentions.
10:07 Speaker 01 Or what have you.
10:08 Jocko Willink? Or you can end up leading people to death in combat. Both of these apparently are big, huge strategic defeats.
10:18 Jocko Willink? Another thing, uh, that is an enemy of strategic thinking, this one's real obvious, instant gratification. Whatever that instant gratification is. It oddly enough can just crush a long-term strategic victory because you want immediate gratification right now. Donut.
10:38 Speaker 01 That one's such a weird one right there.
10:40 Jocko Willink? Donut?
10:41 Speaker 01 No, no, no. The immediate gratification, like you know it. It's like you see it right there in front of you. You see the whole thing. It's not like something's gonna sneak out of the and surprise you. You know. You know, straight up. And you just do it like saving money, right? You know, that one? You save money, then you see that thing that you don't even need.
11:01 Jocko Willink? Yeah. In Discipline Goes Freedom Field Manual, the new edition, I wrote a little section about getting ambushed by, like as if the donut ambushes you. As if that's what happens. As if the alarm clock snooze button somehow.
11:20 Jocko Willink? So that is a little excerpt of what we are doing on the Jocko Underground Podcast. So if you want to continue to listen, go to JacoUnderground.com and subscribe. And we're doing this, we're doing this to mitigate our reliance on external platforms. So we are not subject to their control. And we are doing this so that we can support the Jocko Podcast, which will remain as is free for all, as long as we can keep it that way. But we are doing this so we don't have to be under the control of sponsors. And we're doing it so we can give you more control, more interaction, more direct connections, better communications with us. And to do
12:02 Jocko Willink? that, we are, we're building a website right now where we'll be able to utilize to strengthen this legion of troopers that are in the game with us. So thank you. It's JacoUnderground.com. It costs $8.18 a month. And if you can't afford to support us, we can still support you. Just email [email protected] and we'll get you taken care of. Until then, we will see you mobilized underground.
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