Jocko Underground: How To Exact Revenge On An Enemy

>Join Jocko Underground< https://www.jockounderground.com/subscribe How to exact revenge on an enemy. Trying to balance a night shift with normal life scheduling. Advice and guidance for after losing a loved one. Being over-tasked as an hourly employee. What to do. Taking up Jiu Jitsu with MS. Trying to save a loved on by getting them on The Path. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is the Jocko Underground Podcast, number 115, sitting here with Echo Charles. And last week, the topic of betrayal came up. And so we talked about betrayal, which we kind of discussed the fact that it was a strong word, right? It's a very strong word. Usually, things wouldn't quite qualify as betrayal, even though we might throw the word out there. It does happen, though.

• 0:26Jocko Willink?

  And that got me to thinking about revenge.

• 0:32Jocko Willink?

  Cause there's times where we're wronged and we need revenge, vengeance.

• 0:41Jocko Willink?

  Very popular, very popular sentiment that people have. That's why there's a lot of movies about it. Death Wish?

• 0:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, hell yeah.

• 0:50Jocko Willink?

  Charles Bronson.

• 0:53Jocko Willink?

  Did I ever tell you had a band called Bronson's Children?

• 0:54Speaker 01

  Yes, you did.

• 0:55Jocko Willink?

  So believe me, Death Wish was all up in the mix. Have you ever, the original Death Wish is interesting, cause he, he kinda doesn't, he like throws up when he gets done killing people. It's a, it's a much, it's a much more kind of nuanced movie. By the time you get to Death Wish 4, he's just mowing people down. It's all good. But it's a, it's a revenge film. Unforgiven, you ever seen Unforgiven?

• 1:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, I did. I mean, yeah, back in the day.

• 1:23Jocko Willink?

  Great movie, great movie. But it's a revenge movie. So part of it's not, it, it turns into a revenge movie. Turns into, like, the last, whatever it is, 20 minutes, just, it might even be 15 minutes. The whole movie is just, boom, it's revenge. And that's what we're, that's what we're there for, in the end.

• 1:40Speaker 01

  Wait, does it, is it always a revenge?

• 1:44Jocko Willink?

  No, not really.

• 1:45Speaker 01

  So something happened, then then he wants vengeance, kind of a thing during the movie?

• 1:48Jocko Willink?

  Yep. They kill his friend. They kill his friend, and then he kills them.

• 1:53Speaker 01

  Like later in the movie?

• 1:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, but it's late in the movie. That's not the plot of the whole movie. It's not like in the beginning, and now we do vengeance. Terminal List, have you seen Terminal List?

• 2:04Jocko Willink?

  With uh, written by Jack Carr?

• 2:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:08Jocko Willink?

  That, Chris Pratt's in it?

• 2:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:11Jocko Willink?

  Playing James Reese?

• 2:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, hell yeah.

• 2:13Jocko Willink?

  That's just big revenge, kind of in a way, right?

• 2:17Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:17Jocko Willink?

  Like, hey, you killed my family, I'm killing everyone.

• 2:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:20Jocko Willink?

  And we get it, right? These movies are cool. We relate to the sentiment of the movie. We feel good about it. Why? Because that's what we think we would do. And here's the bottom line, you end up in jail, right? I mean, all those movies, you end up in jail. Maybe you get away with it in Unforgiven because it's taking place back in the day. But Death Wish, eventually you're going to jail. James Reese? I suspend, what is it? How do they say suspend disbelief? What is it? You gotta suspend disbelief because in the show, he's just like in Coronado, California, just killing twenty, ten people or whatever. Commanders from the military.

• 3:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:03Jocko Willink?

  And then rolling, like, he's on the run a little bit, but, you know. There was a manhunt a while ago. Some Navy guy went on a little bit of a killing spree. And they caught him real quick. Look, James Reese, is he more skilled? Yes, he is.

• 3:20Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 3:20Jocko Willink?

  But what I'm saying is you're gonna end up in jail. So, which could be worth it, right? Somebody does something, someone harms your family in an irrevocable way? Cool, it's on, everyone dies. I get that. That's, that's a real thing. But normally, like, normal everyday life, that's not what you're, what we're getting revenge for. We need to get revenge for lesser crimes or infractions, right?

• 3:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:49Jocko Willink?

  It's sort of like the same thing, betrayal. Did, well, what is it really? You know what I mean? So

• 3:58Jocko Willink?

  I think we can, we need to think about what we're talking about. If you're gonna go full revenge because someone did something irrevocable to your family? Cool, I get it. You wanna go full James Reese and just start get your murder on? Cool. Generally speaking, it's not gonna be a great move for normal life, right?

• 4:17Jocko Willink?

  We, when we're trying to get revenge on a normal sort of infraction in life, might even be significant.

• 4:30Jocko Willink?

  But not illegal. You know what I mean? So, there's a bunch of, Eli Wiesel, Wiesel, the Holocaust survivor, author, he wrote the book Night. He said, "The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference." Which is a very critical thing. First person that said that to me was Elgin James. "The opposite of love isn't hate, it's indifference." Meaning, I just don't care. Which is, so, when you get dumped, when you're fifteen, and you're like, "I hate her." No. If you really want to go the opposite of love, go to indifference. I don't care about you. That's where you want to be.

• 5:17Jocko Willink?

  Marcus Aurelius said, "The best revenge is to not be like your enemy." It's another good one. And then finally Frank Sinatra, and we'll kind of hold this theme. "The best revenge is massive success." It's a good call.

• 5:37Jocko Willink?

  I agree with all those ideas, like those general concepts.

• 5:42Jocko Willink?

  The best thing you can do when someone wrongs you is move on, forget about them, and go win. That's truly the best revenge that you can get.

• 5:52Jocko Willink?

  Go kick ass.

• 5:55Jocko Willink?

  If you do that, here's the thing. Let's say you did something that was wrong to me. And then I just went and kicked ass. And you and I, and I was massively successful with whatever I was doing. And then you saw me, six years later, and you're kind of the same you, and I'm this massively successful. That would be the harshest thing I could do to you. Now, if I was to like, you do something against me, and so I go and freaking cut the tires of your car, and I freaking smash the windows, and I piss in your gas tank, and like, ugh, and then I get arrested, but I got you, because you were late for a thi- like, think of how stupid that is.

• 6:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:32Jocko Willink?

  You actually win, by the way, when I'm in jail now, where I have a big fine, and you're suing me, like, you win. Especially when I'm in court, and they're like, "So you urinated in his gas tank?" And I'm like, "Well..." You know what I mean?

• 6:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, he did this thing to me. It's like, no, you were immature. You were stupid.

• 6:54Jocko Willink?

  So getting caught up in revenge means you get caught up in some kind of envy slash jealousy slash anger, which are all a bunch of emotions that you're wasting that are going to drive you to make bad decisions. Ego-based decisions. And they all give you echo trolls. If I'm doing these, if I'm angry at you, if I'm mad at you, if I'm jealous of you, all those things give you the upper hand. They give you the W. They give you the win. The fact that I'm walking around all mad, you won. Why am I going to allow you to have, what is it, live in my head rent-free?

• 7:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:36Jocko Willink?

  You know what I'm saying?

• 7:37Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 7:38Jocko Willink?

  Live in my head rent-free, which is what's going to happen. If I can't

• 7:46Jocko Willink?

  forgive you, forgive and forget. And I know that's a big ask. Forgive and forget. It's actually, here's the good thing. When I forgive, when you do something wrong to me, you wronged me. You stole my girlfriend. You borrowed money from me in some investment thing and you didn't pay me back. You, like those kinds of things, this is the kind of thing we're talking about, right?

• 8:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:18Jocko Willink?

  It's not illegal for you to steal my girlfriend. It's not, if you, you know, presented an investment to me and I invested money and then you just didn't pay me back because everything went to shit, and that's not illegal. I mean, sure, it could be some form, but I'm saying in this case, not illegal.

• 8:37Jocko Willink?

  What else could you do to me that would require some type, that would make, that would fuel me for revenge?

• 8:42Speaker 01

  That's not illegal?

• 8:43Jocko Willink?

  That's not illegal.

• 8:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, the girlfriend thing.

• 8:47Jocko Willink?

  Oh, you, you, oh.

• 8:48Speaker 01

  Talking trash behind your back.

• 8:49Jocko Willink?

  I told you about, I told you about this job offer. I told you about this job, him and I applied for this job, and then you went and applied for the job and you got it. You know what I mean? I'm going to get you back.

• 8:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:59Jocko Willink?

  Not illegal, but it's definitely enough. I mean, it's a life-changing situation, especially you got the job that I wanted. You're getting, you know, eighty-two thousand dollars a year. I thought I could have had that job.

• 9:10Jocko Willink?

  So those kind of things, the worst thing I can do is be all caught up in it and let you live in my freaking mental headspace forever. The best thing to do is be like, hey, I hope that job works out. Good for you, bro. Good luck. Sincerely mean it. That's the best thing I could do. And I know that's a big ask and I know that people have a hard time with that, but I'm going to tell you right now, it's the best thing for me and it's the, it's gonna sound weird. It's the worst thing for you. It's actually the worst thing for you. Cause I want to have revenge on you. The best revenge I can have on you is that you realize that you're a piece of shit and that I'm a good person and you screwed me over. That's

• 9:53Jocko Willink?

  the best thing. That's the worst thing for you. And it might take five years. It might take eight years. It might take three years. It might be immediate. I don't know. It might be on your deathbed. But the worst thing that I can do to you is make you realize that you were a piece of shit and what you did. And that I was a good person that you did it to. See what I'm saying?

• 10:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:14Jocko Willink?

  It's kinda strange. Now, look, if you're a sociopath and you're like, whatever. You didn't apply for the job quick enough. It's my job. Okay, cool. Nonetheless, even, even if it doesn't affect you at all, it's still the best thing because now I can move on and carry on with the rest of my life.

• 10:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:31Jocko Willink?

  So here's how you get revenge. And it truly is the best way to get revenge. Forgive and forget and go win big. That's my recommendation.

• 10:46Speaker 01

  So there's a, I've always had like, kind of these weird questions about revenge, forgiveness, actually more than even more than revenge, but like forgive, can you forgive someone who isn't sorry?

• 10:57Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 10:59Speaker 01

  Like, you know, the old school, like, oh, you know, I was bullied when I was in high school and, and they're like, oh, I forgive them, but then the bully guy is still a bully. And he's like, I don't, I'm not sorry about that. Like freaking whatever. You're a dork or whatever. Can you can still forgive him, you think?

• 11:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you can.

• 11:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, just like you're you're a flawed human being kind of thing and hey man,

• 11:20Jocko Willink?

  I feel sorry for you, man.

• 11:21Speaker 01

  It's not your fault kind of thing.

• 11:24Jocko Willink?

  I'm gonna move on.

• 11:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, the whole even calling it revenge.

• 11:29Jocko Willink?

  If you can't forgive him, at least move on.

• 11:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that's.

• 11:32Jocko Willink?

  Forgiving is gonna make it easier for you.

• 11:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I think just the way.

• 11:35Jocko Willink?

  But if forgiving is too hard for you, at least just move on. Be like, you know what? That person's an idiot. I'm moving on.

• 11:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:41Jocko Willink?

  They're out of my life. I'm moving on.

• 11:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, and forgiving is actually pretty easy. Like, and actually, you're you do a good job of illustrating it in the Warrior Kid books. Or especially the the second one with the Nathan James.

• 11:54Jocko Willink?

  Nathan James.

• 11:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, it's like, hey, people are flawed, you know, and especially with the bullying thing, for example. Uh, where it like there were some somewhere along the line, they learn to bully other people in whatever capacity. Uh, and they're like flawed. That's not a good quality to have, no matter who you are. Like even a bully doesn't necessarily overall look and reflect on himself and be like, you know what? I'm really glad that I'm a bully, that I bully weaker people. Like, no one's really like that. And even if they are like that, let's say they're a psychopath, whatever sociopath, it's kind of like, damn. No one want, no one wants their kids to be a sociopath. Like, that's a bad thing to be, no matter how you the individual feels about it. So it's kind of like, hey, that's a flawed individual. So, man, I gotta kind of forgive in in that way.

• 12:38Speaker 01

  Now, functionally, it's different where if they're causing trouble, then yes, the trouble has to stop for sure. But as far as forgiving someone, that does make sense.

• 12:47Speaker 01

  Vengeance, I think, would be, uh, wanting revenge. I feel like that's like a, it's kind of a slippery one where if you're in the headspace that you want revenge, you have a problem. Like, you're the one with the problem.

• 13:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 13:03Speaker 01

  So, yes, if you're just like, hey, let it go and then just just move forward and try to improve your life, for sure. Sure. Incidentally, that could be revenge if the other person didn't get their life together. But what if? You're like, you know what? I'm just gonna use that as motivation. I'm gonna get my life together and I'm gonna do well in life. But meanwhile, what if that person who bullied you in high school will say, what if they got their life together too? And they're doing just as well. It's kind of like, you know? Yeah, if you truly let it go.

• 13:29Jocko Willink?

  That's what I'm saying.

• 13:30Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 13:30Jocko Willink?

  I'd say it was easy.

• 13:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, fully, fully. Yes. And I am not saying it's not, it has no bearing on like what you said for sure. I'm just saying me trying to understand vengeance in and of itself. Like if I have this massive drive for vengeance in whatever way, even if I'm like, I'm gonna kick ass in life and that's my version of revenge, just that, the fact that I want that revenge could be a problem. Because you never know, like I said, what if this other person is like, hey, yeah. And

• 13:59Jocko Willink?

  Then you could let it eat you up for the rest of your life.

• 14:01Speaker 01

  And it probably would.

• 14:03Jocko Willink?

  Always compare and always look at them and always be like, they didn't deserve that.

• 14:07Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 14:08Jocko Willink?

  What they did to me.

• 14:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 14:10Jocko Willink?

  It's gonna eat you up, man. Let it go.

• 14:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, big time. I'm kind of ironic.

• 14:14Jocko Willink?

  But here's the other thing that is the look, and this isn't, if you're a bad person,

• 14:20Jocko Willink?

  over time, you're gonna lose.

• 14:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:22Jocko Willink?

  Look, it might take a long, long time because we have people like Madoff, right? Bernie Madoff, he's a bad person, scumbag, took 75 years or however old he was before it finally caught up with him.

• 14:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:33Jocko Willink?

  So, yes, there are people that can ride that socio. So, that is a little excerpt of what we are doing on the Jocko Underground Podcast. So if you want to continue to listen,

• 14:48Jocko Willink?

  go to jacood underground.com and subscribe and we're doing this, we're doing this to mitigate our reliance on external platforms. So we are not subject to their control and we are doing this so that we can support the Jocko Podcast, which will remain as is, free for all, as long as we can keep it that way. But we, but we are doing this so we don't have to be under the control of sponsors. And we're doing it so we can give you.

• 15:20Jocko Willink?

  More control, more interaction, more direct connections, better communications with us.

• 15:26Jocko Willink?

  And to do that, we are, we're building a website right now where we'll be able to utilize to strengthen this legion of troopers that are in the game with us. So, thank you. It's jocko underground.com. It costs $8.18 a month. And if you can't afford to support us,

• 15:46Jocko Willink?

  we can still support you. Just email [email protected] and we'll get you taken care of. Until then, we will see you mobilized underground.