Jocko Underground: Developing Prejudice Against Others and Loyalty Toward Your Own. Eagles VS Rattlers.

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Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is the Jocko Underground Podcast, number 93, sitting here with Echo Charles. This is me, Jocko Willink, and we're going to talk about the Eagles versus the Rattlers. Know anything about this? No, you don't. This was the culmination of an experiment that was a psychological and a sociological experiment that was conducted in the late 1950s, early 1960s. A guy named Musafer Sharif, he was a Turkish-American social psychologist. He was alive from 1906 to 1988, and back in the day, you could do some wild stuff with experiments, right? And actually, I don't know, we can discuss. This one wasn't, I actually think this one was kind of okay.

• 0:45Jocko Willink?

  I might be wrong, but, and also, it's an experiment that you can see just play out all the time. So, they took 22 11-year-old boys and they brought them to a camp. They're all white kids with similar middle-class backgrounds, so they're pretty similar kids. 22 of them. They split them into two different teams.

• 1:12Jocko Willink?

  At first, they didn't even know each other. They didn't, they weren't together at first. And they spent a few days just doing activities separate. They didn't know the other team existed, so they just show up at a camp and they have 11 guys total on a team. And they start doing like hiking together, they're swimming, they're playing games like fun, not competitive against each other games, but like, oh, let's try and do this, let's swim over there, let's go for a hike, just kind of doing things together.

• 1:41Jocko Willink?

  And they just did these cooperative events as a team, and they started to like form bonds and become friends. This was like a four or five-day period. And they ended up, each of them independently, coming up with names for their little team. One of them called themselves the Eagles, the other ones called themselves the Rattlers.

• 2:05Jocko Willink?

  And then they took, they made shirts, they made flags, they like got kind of fired up, they're part of this crew. And then they took the two groups and they brought them together. And they started to put them in competitive games and situations.

• 2:24Jocko Willink?

  And they started to develop a prejudice against each other.

• 2:30Jocko Willink?

  And they would do things, they would like have a picnic. They would, they, they would do a combined picnic, but one of the teams, they would set it up. So one of the teams would get there early and eat all the food from the other team. And then that kind of escalated. The Eagles eventually burned the Rattlers' flag. The Rattlers invaded the Eagles' cabins and stole their gear and vandalized their stuff. And eventually the researchers had to physically separate the two groups.

• 3:05Jocko Willink?

  Then they put them into a two day, um, cooling off period where they just got to relax. They didn't, they didn't create any more hostilities between them. And then they had them during that time, write words to describe what the other group was like. And you can imagine, no, the other group is conniving and, you know, evil and all that kind of stuff. And my group is good and we're upstanding.

• 3:31Jocko Willink?

  And then what they did was they brought them together.

• 3:36Jocko Willink?

  And now they had them work, and this was really interesting to me. They had them work on projects together where in order to be successful, they had to work together. And it was mutually beneficial to both teams. And when they did that, that they found was the best way to unify both groups together. And unify both groups together and reduce conflict.

• 4:09Jocko Willink?

  A superordinate goal. This is interesting. This is what I've been calling for the last two years, I think, is climbing the ladder of alignment. What do we actually, what are we aligned on?

• 4:22Jocko Willink?

  And with, well, the other interesting thing is when they just had them hang out together. For instance, they'd say, hey, you guys are going to watch a movie together tonight. Or you're going to come and eat together tonight. It didn't help, didn't help unify the teams at all. They would still, they'd argue about what movie to watch. They'd argue about like how much food, but as soon as they had a superordinate goal to, that they needed to work together on, that's what bonded the group. So

• 4:54Jocko Willink?

  this out of this came the realistic group conflict theory. It's basically that groups will get competitive over resources. All that stuff is real obvious. This is one of those things where like, you know, you think to yourself, yeah, no kidding. You had to do an experiment, even this whole thing. Oh, you had to do an experiment to figure this out. This is so obvious. This is like every group of kids that hangs out together. And there's another group of kids at the other end of the street and they hang out together and if there's scarce resources, they're gonna fight. That's the way it is. And I just thought it was an interesting, uh, real clear example of the fact that we're tribal animals.

• 5:35Jocko Willink?

  And if you're not paying attention, you can become part of a tribe. You don't even recognize that you're part of this tribe and you start thinking things that you have no actual reason for thinking, but you're thinking of. And if you're not paying attention, that can happen. So

• 5:53Jocko Willink?

  my overall advice is pay attention. You don't want to be an eagle. You don't want to be a rattler. They have no fundamental reason for this. Anger and prejudice against each other, but then it escalates from little things. You know, it's just a little thing. Oh, you ate some of our cake. Oh, well then we're gonna take your cake and we're gonna smash it. Okay, then we're gonna burn your flag. Okay, we're gonna raid your cabins. You let that go. If the researchers let that go, who knows, man? Maybe someone's getting killed.

• 6:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:20Jocko Willink?

  You know what I'm saying? That's basically what gangs do.

• 6:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, that is.

• 6:25Jocko Willink?

  So be careful.

• 6:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, big time. And obviously, you know, you explaining that whole thing, you can think of all the different examples, varying levels of it. Where the first one comes to mind, obviously, is the sports fans, right? How they always get into the fights and, you know, and the thing, 100% based on a sports team that they have probably never played for, never gonna play for. Probably don't even know personally, you know, they don't have a personal relationship with not one single member of the whole company, not even just the team, like no, nothing, never met them in real life, whatever. And they're still that unified over the fact that they play in that city, you know? And you're right, it stems from like that one commonality, right? That one like a common interest in whatever way.

• 7:13Speaker 01

  And then from there, it just grows almost like you forget the common interest. You just have that feeling and then you just move forward almost automatically in a way. So it's like, okay, someone who opposes the San Diego Chargers. I know they're not in San Diego anymore, but my psychologically example is San Diego Chargers. So anyone who opposes the San Diego Chargers, they're kind of like the enemy in this little seed in my mind. You know, so anything that kind of confirms that just exacerbates it more and more and more. Same thing about your presidential candidate of choice. You know, oh, that freaking Trump supporter or that whatever supporter, you know, kind of a thing. And I'm not that. So they're on the other team and then freaking hostility from there.

• 7:50Jocko Willink?

  Hostility, you know, when JP was on the podcast and we were talking about getting a platoon to break. When we were running training, all you have to do is create some little bit of little kernel of animosity between the troops. And they just self-destruct, bro. And that's what's going on. That's what's going on in America. You know, it's like, oh, you, what you should be thinking is you should be thinking, hey, if I'm mad at Echo because he believes this thing, that's actually, no matter where I'm at, that's bad for, that's bad for everybody. It's bad for America. If I'm mad at you because you have a different political belief than me. And instead of me going, oh yeah, well, you know, it's America.

• 8:31Jocko Willink?

  You can, he can support his ideas and I'll support my ideas and we'll see which one goes, goes further. And I'll continue to work against what he's think, but I'm not mad at him. But the minute I'm like, no, I actually hate Echo.

• 8:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:45Jocko Willink?

  Now, because that kernel grows, man. It grows big time. And now actually I don't just hate the fact that you don't like this one political thing that I like. Now I hate everything about you.

• 8:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:58Jocko Willink?

  Now I hate every political belief you have. It's been weird to watch the way things have flipped upside down in the political spectrum. Where like, for instance, the, the Democrats pretty much being like pro Big Pharma now is kind of crazy.

• 9:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:17Jocko Willink?

  And, and them being basically pro war in Ukraine.

• 9:22Jocko Willink?

  When you know, when you would traditionally think of where, who's supporting the big companies? Oh, it's the Republicans.

• 9:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:29Jocko Willink?

  Or who's supporting war? Oh, it's the Republicans. Now you have a literal flip of that.

• 9:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yep. And it doesn't surprise me, given this one thing that I witnessed from some insider. So I'm not going to name nobody's name, but.

• 9:45Speaker 01

  So this one insider had a meeting with someone, another insider.

• 9:51Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 9:52Speaker 01

  And this meeting had another person involved in it who said,

• 9:57Speaker 01

  um, we're gonna block this. And it was like some bill or some thing, right? Some law, we're gonna block this bill, even though it's a good bill. And in fact, we all talked about passing this bill like two years ago. But since they kind of formulated it in, um, or finalized it or whatever. I don't know the terms, but since they basically, uh, uh, announced it first, like it's their bill. They want to block it, even though it's like literally the one that they had, you know? So it's a good bill. Everyone agrees on it, but since they did it, it was the other political side. Since they're bringing it out, we're gonna block it. That's how deep it goes. Like the whole country at risk, by the way.

• 10:33Jocko Willink?

  Pathetic.

• 10:33Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. So that kind of stuff.

• 10:35Jocko Willink?

  Freaking idiots.

• 10:36Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 10:36Jocko Willink?

  These freaking idiots. That's what they are. They're a bunch of freaking idiots. They're donkeys. I've, I've mentioned this a few times. And there you go. That's a little taste of what we are doing on the Jocko Underground Podcast. And if you want to listen to the whole thing, go to Jocko Underground dot com and subscribe. And we're doing this, we're doing this to mitigate our reliance on external platforms. So we are not subject to their control. And we are doing this so that we can support the Jocko Podcast, which will remain as is free for all, as long as we can keep it that way. But we, but we are doing this so we don't have to be under the control of sponsors.

• 11:19Jocko Willink?

  And we're doing it so we can give you more control, more interaction, more direct connections, better communications with us to strengthen this legion of troopers that are in the game with us. So thank you. It's Jocko Underground dot com. It costs eight dollars and 18 cents a month. And if you can't afford to support us, we can still support you. Just email assistance at Jocko Underground dot com and we'll get you taken care of. Until then, we will see you mobilized.

• 11:51Jocko Willink?

  Underground.