Pod Insights Jocko Podcast Jocko Underground: Burdian's Ass | Bullying | Getting Where You Need to Be in Your Career | Struggling With Friendships About this episode Burdian's Ass: If you place a donkey equidistant from water and food who is equally hungry and thirsty, he will die of both hunger and thirst.
Dealing with bullies.
Struggling to improve friendships.
Dealing with a cocky co-worker openly gunning for your job.
Getting where you need to be in your career.
Training on days you don't feel like it.
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Jocko Willink? This is Jocko Underground Podcast number 59 with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink, sitting here with another theory to think about. Got a theory for you to think about, one to be aware of. These theories are good to be aware of. When you're aware of things, you become so much more powerful in defending against them. Let me just think about if you know what an armlock is, you can defend the armlock. If you don't know what the armlock is, you don't even know where to start. So here's a theory. It's called Burdian's Ass.
0:33 Speaker 01 Whose theory is this?
0:34 Jocko Willink? It's a theory.
0:35 Speaker 01 Okay.
0:37 Jocko Willink? The, it is a philosophical paradox related to decision making. It's named after this French philosopher, Jean Burdian. It actually kind of makes fun of Jean Burdian, and I won't go into the whole history behind that because this guy is somebody that was born in 1301. So this guy's, he's, he's pretty ancient philosopher. But here, so here's the paradox, and I guess he was, he was a guy that talked about this type of free will and whatnot. But here's the paradox.
1:17 Jocko Willink? If you place a donkey, an ass, if you place a donkey that is equally hungry and thirsty, and you, you place him an equal distance between water and food, he's going to die of both hunger and thirst because he can't make a rational decision between going to the hay or going to the water. All right. So
1:41 Jocko Willink? it's something very good to be aware of because this can happen to us. This can lead to paralysis.
1:48 Jocko Willink? We get stuck in these situations where it's like, well, that seems pretty good, but this seems pretty good too. We just don't make a decision. Or I want this, but I also want that. So I'm just not going to do anything. So it is a good time to employ. The law of combat prioritize and execute, right? I mean, in this case, guess what? You can live for 30 days without food. You can only live three hour, uh, three. You can live for 30 days without food. You can only live for through three days without water. So you better go get the water first. That's your prioritize and execute model. No factor. Also can be a good time to employ some iterative decision making like, like, oh, maybe I'll take a little step in this direction. Do it. Oh yeah, that makes sense. I'm still thirsty. I can survive a little bit longer without food, but if I go, I need water for sure.
2:32 Jocko Willink? So take some small steps in that direction. But oftentimes we go through life and sometimes we act like a jackass.
2:42 Jocko Willink? We don't make decisions. We don't make decisions. We don't choose a course. And listen, I say, and I don't know when I started saying this, but I've been saying it. I'm kind of sticking with it right now.
2:56 Jocko Willink? In my opinion, seven out of 10 times, 70% of the time, action is better than inaction. Except, look, there's three times where you know what? You gotta hesitate. You gotta hold back. You gotta wait. But most of the time, action is better. And the reason it's better is because when you take action, you get to see a different perspective. You get a reaction. Your knowledge grows. You learn.
3:23 Jocko Willink? You can learn by sitting and waiting occasionally. That's why it's only three out of 10, bro. It's only three out of 10. Inaction has a possibility of giving you nothing. Like you sit and wait, you don't, you don't change your viewpoint. You don't change your perspective. You've seen the same thing that you saw before. So there's a chance that inaction, you get nothing from it. There's a small chance that if I sit here and wait and I see what Echo is gonna do. Now I see what he's doing. Okay. Now I can, there's a chance.
3:49 Jocko Willink? But there's also a chance that I don't get to see anything new. Whereas if I maneuver, take a step, take some action, I'm gonna get to see more. I'm gonna learn. So bottom line is don't be a jackass. Don't be a jackass. Don't be a jackass. Take some action. Don't get stuck. Don't sit there and analyze all day long. Cause it's gonna be a problem. So there you go. Little theory, little theory from the past, from a, from Burdian's ass. Do you ever get that feeling?
4:23 Jocko Willink? Uh, I don't know. I didn't even think about that. I should have thought of it a personal example of that. Of me, I think for, I think for me, it might be, I want this, but I also want that. Like at the same time, which is what the donkey's doing, right? The donkey wants water and wants hay.
4:38 Speaker 01 Yeah.
4:38 Jocko Willink? So, yeah, sometimes you're like, oh, I want this, but I also want that. Which one should I get?
4:42 Speaker 01 Yeah.
4:43 Jocko Willink? And I'm, and I wait and argue about it in my own head.
4:46 Speaker 01 Yeah.
4:47 Jocko Willink? So, don't do that.
4:49 Speaker 01 Yeah, that's, it feels like this is something different though, right?
4:52 Jocko Willink? Feels like it's different than what?
4:53 Speaker 01 Than just, you know, like if you want some, let's say it's like buying something. It's kind of like, that's a common thing where it's like, yeah, of course you want both. You probably want 10 other things as well. But these are just the two things that you're considering. And then you're like, wait. But I only want to spend a certain amount of money, which can only afford me one of these things. I'm sure that's like a common thing. That's not like this philosophical.
5:12 Jocko Willink? Well, here's the thing. You want to buy that property and you want to buy this property and you're like debating. And all of a sudden, property goes up on, the prices go up on both.
5:20 Speaker 01 Oh, right. Yeah.
5:21 Jocko Willink? And now you're being indecisive.
5:23 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah, you're right. Yeah.
5:24 Jocko Willink? So that's where it applies. Or, hey, I really want to, I really want to apply for this job, but I like this job as well. And you're like, oh, which one should I apply for? Oh, I didn't apply for either one because I was debating. And guess what? Now both jobs are filled. So there's a bunch of examples where this happens in real life.
5:39 Speaker 01 So like, let's say you're walking in the movie theater and then you're like, hey, like over, if I sit over there, I'll be around way less people. But then if I sit over there, I'll have like the perfect view, but I'll be next to these people. But I'm have the perfect view. It's like right in the center.
5:55 Jocko Willink? Yeah.
5:55 Speaker 01 For, you know, kind of thing. And you're like, shoot, should I? Let me see. Oh, wait, there's more people sitting over there a little bit. So maybe this one seems better now. Oh, shoot. Oh, now everyone's sat there. Kind of a thing.
6:05 Jocko Willink? Yep. And you missed it.
6:06 Speaker 01 Yeah, that's my, my turmoil usually.
6:08 Jocko Willink? That's your, your Vietnam.
6:09 Speaker 01 Actually.
6:11 Jocko Willink? To quote Theo Von.
6:12 Speaker 01 You want, uh, actually, here's, here's the worst one. This is probably going to be the worst one you ever heard. Maybe, maybe not. I don't know. So today, it was today, um, I was doing, actually, sorry, not today, yesterday. Deadlifts after squats. Do you do deadlifts after squats? No. How do you split that?
6:27 Jocko Willink? Deadlifts on a totally different day.
6:29 Speaker 01 Different day. Okay. So I do deadlifts after squats.
6:33 Speaker 01 So I take the squat, the weight.
6:36 Jocko Willink? That's very revealing.
6:38 Speaker 01 Yeah.
6:39 Jocko Willink? As to like your effort level on your squats.
6:41 Speaker 01 No, my deadlifts.
6:42 Jocko Willink? And your deadlifts.
6:43 Speaker 01 Yeah. Just the deadlifts. My effort on deadlifts is less than squats, for sure.
6:51 Speaker 01 In my head. So I take the weights from the squat rack when I'm done to, and I start to load them on the deadlift. It's a different, separate bar. So when I load one plate on, you know, one plate at a time, right? So I got two, one plate on each side. So the second plate, when I walk it from the squat rack to the deadlift area or whatever, like, I can't decide which side I should put it on.
7:16 Speaker 01 This is weird. Because if I walk it to the far side, I'm calculating weight. So depending on which side I grab it from the squat rack. So if I grab it from the far side of the squat rack, should I walk it all the way there that I'm done with it? And then it'll contribute to the recovery I have from, you know, as far as the time perspective? Or should I just go nuts to nuts, go far side to near side? Near side to far side to even it up. You see what I'm saying? So I don't know where to put it, just for a little bit.
7:43 Jocko Willink? Yeah. I think the part of the theory that applies to this is the part that's called jackass.
7:50 Jocko Willink? Because none of that matters.
7:52 Speaker 01 That's real jackass?
7:53 Jocko Willink? You're just like, you need to do something else, like with your mind.
7:57 Speaker 01 It's real.
7:58 Jocko Willink? Because that's just horrible.
7:59 Speaker 01 But when you said that, that's the first thing I thought of. I was like, yeah, brother, it's real. Because like, and that's, that's kind of why at first I didn't think that your example was, because that's like common. That's like, yeah, no, no kidding. Like, you're gonna be indecisive because both provide benefits. Like, that's common. That doesn't deserve a theory almost. That's how it feels. I don't know. I'm not a philosopher. But.
8:20 Jocko Willink? Let's not get trapped. Let's not be a jackass. There's no but here.
8:23 Speaker 01 But sometimes there's like unreasonable, this will apply, or this will pop up in your head in an unreasonable way. Like it does with me sometimes.
8:32 Jocko Willink? Apparently.
8:33 Speaker 01 So that's why it deserves like a theory. That's what it felt like the whole system worked. But either way, it applies to, I think it applies to everything. No matter what.
8:41 Jocko Willink? Yeah. Okay.
8:42 Speaker 01 First question.
8:43 Jocko Willink? Let's get to the questions, bro.
8:45 Speaker 01 I'm 18 years old.
8:48 Jocko Willink? Do yourself a favor.
8:49 Speaker 01 That's real.
8:49 Jocko Willink? Do us all a favor.
8:50 Speaker 01 I'm sure there's other people out there. Remember, I told you.
8:52 Jocko Willink? There's no one else out there.
8:53 Speaker 01 No, no, no. I told you, um, freaking about, and I think it's the same thing. When I was unloading the dishwasher. And over on this side of the kitchen, you know, my kitchen's like long, it goes long, the long way or whatever. So the plates and bowls and silverware is on this side of the kitchen and the pots and pans are oh, literally on the opposite side.
9:15 Jocko Willink? Rearrange your kitchen, bro.
9:16 Speaker 01 No, no, no, no, no, no, it's not worth it. Nonetheless, that's not the point. So the point is, I see everything. I'm like, shoot pots and pans and then plates and bowls and stuff and silverware is all in there, right? So I was like, shoot, which one do I do first? Because this one's slightly closer, but if I do this one over here, they'll be done. Then all I got is the close stuff left and it's kind of like that thing, you know? So I'm like super indecisive. So I'm wasting time, seconds, mere seconds, but I'm still wasting seconds. So I'm trying to make these decisions. See what I'm saying? It's the same concept.
9:46 Jocko Willink? Yep. The concept is jackass.
9:51 Speaker 01 This applies to different people in different ways. I am 18 years old. Seven months ago, I defended one of my friends that was getting bullied at school, standing up to him kind of aggressively. After that episode, all the friends of the bully started to pick on me and kind of bully me in group.
10:09 Speaker 01 They turned a lot of people against me in, or they turned a lot of people against me. And in the last days of school, they have a lot of friends and every time I go out, I meet someone that stares at me. I have a huge amount of people against me and I don't know how to act. Being in a constant state of awareness and trying to spot all the opposite, or all the possible threats is really stressful. I'm trying, I'm trying meditation and stoicism, but they don't seem to work that much. Been a long time of bullying and doesn't seem to seem to stop. What's your, what's your advice?
10:44 Jocko Willink? Well, first of all, make sure you're training jujitsu. Maybe some boxing, Muay Thai wrestling. And look, that's not, why, why is that? Is that because I want you to go fight everybody? No, but just in case you have to, you want to be effective. So train some jujitsu, train some boxing, train some Muay Thai, train some wrestling. Make sure you know how to defend yourself. You're, the way you behave when you know how to defend yourself will be deterrent to the bullies. Because bullies, the last thing they want to do is get beat up by someone that they're bullying. And when you know how to fight, people can sense that and you, you can fake it, but it's hard to fake. So train jujitsu, number one. Also, okay, so a couple of other things.
11:30 Jocko Willink? Hang out with your friends, right? Don't, don't like be, be alone if you think there might be some violence. So hang out with your friends, stay with your crew, but listen, this is important. Don't be purposefully confrontational, right? Cause you get your pack of friends and now you're eyeing them and they're eyeing you. You're not looking, we're not looking to affront anybody. We're not looking to antagonize anybody. We're looking to mind our own business and let them forget about us. That's what we're doing. We're just trying to keep our head, keep our head down and move on and carry on. And that's what we're doing. As far as how we're individually, you know, you asked, you're not sure how to act. It's the same thing. You act confident, but you're not offensive. You're not walking around with your chest out.
12:12 Jocko Willink? You're not walking around like you're a badass, not making a spectacle of yourself. You're just acting, doing what you'd normally do. Oh, it's lunchtime, going to lunch, going to my class, doing whatever, going to the store, just being normal. And you know what? Be a little bit polite. Someone staring at you, hey, what's up, man? You know, maybe give them a head nod. Maybe you don't even want to verbalize anything because that can, that can escalate. So that is a little excerpt of what we are doing on the Jocko Underground Podcast. So if you want to continue to listen, go to JacoUnderground.com and subscribe and we're doing this. We're doing this to mitigate our reliance on external platforms.
12:57 Jocko Willink? So we are not subject to their control. And we're doing this so that we can support the Jocko Podcast, which will remain as is, free for all, as long as we can keep it that way. But we, but we are doing this so we don't have to be under the control of sponsors. And we're doing it so we can give you more control, more interaction, more direct connections, better communications with us. And to do that, we are, we're building a website right now where we'll be able to utilize to strengthen this legion of troopers that are in the game with us. So thank you. It's JacoUnderground.com. It costs $8.18 a month.
13:41 Jocko Willink? And if you can't afford to support us, we can still support you. Just email [email protected] and we'll get you taken care of. Until then, we will see you mobilized underground.
Previous 347: To Accomplish The Impossible, We Must Decide. With Nick Lavery, Green Beret and Wounded Warrior. Next 348: Don't Be Careful. Careful Kills. With Peter Maguire. Author, Professor, Surfer, and Black Belt. Page updated October 26, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated
