Pod Insights Jocko Podcast Jocko Underground: Beware The Social Contagion. Contending with Weak-Minded People. About this episode Beware the Social Contagion.
Dealing with past abuse.
People who can't control their emotions, or see things the way you do.
The cold plunge. Cold Showers.
Discussing Differences between mend and women.
Dealing with a harsh break-up.
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:01 Jocko Willink? This is the Jocko Underground Podcast, number 44, Echo Charles, sitting here with me. I've been thinking a lot about this term I heard a little while ago, but it seems to just be more and more important and more impactful all the time. The term is "social contagion."
0:25 Jocko Willink? And it, you know, in a nutshell, it's like a fad, right? It's like a fad of something. But, you know, when you think of fad, you think of hula hoops, right? Or Rubik's cubes. What you don't think of is something like suicide, or cutting yourself, which is a thing that happens with people. They get into self-harm. So, I was just reading a little bit about it, some excerpts here from PsychologyToday.com. Starts off with this little example, in 1774, Johann Wolfgang von Golt
1:08 Jocko Willink? published a book called "The Sorrows of Young Werther." In the novel, the main character, Werther, shoots himself with a pistol after he's rejected by the woman he loves. Shortly after the book's publication, there were reports of young men dressing in yellow pants and blue jackets, like Werther, and shooting themselves in acts of hopelessness. This resulted in the book being banned in several places. The phenomenon of copycat suicides, which has been verified numerous times by research in recent decades, has become known as the Werther Effect. I also heard Jordan Peterson, I think he talked about it when he was on our podcast, if you have, they have like experiments, or they have data,
1:51 Jocko Willink? that when they put suicide prevention signs up in a town or in a city, you know, call 1-800 if you're feeling depressed to help you get over suicidal thoughts. Suicide increases. Because that idea is getting in people's head.
2:08 Jocko Willink? I guess that's not quite a social contagion. It's, to me, that's the idea of this idea getting into your head. Being placed there. The idea gets placed there. And if the idea wouldn't have been placed there, it's like a little seed that gets planted and then it grows. And but what I think part of the social contagion aspect is that right now, there's so many ways that a seed can get planted in your head. Right? Primarily. Social media. I mean, you can stare at this freaking little screen all day and have people pump ideas into your head. Uh, going back to this article. Social contagion is more a general phenomenon extending far beyond suicide.
2:49 Jocko Willink? It is the spread of ideas, attitudes, or patterns, or behavior patterns in a group through imitation and conformity, among other factors. The American Psychological Association's definition of social contagion lists a few of the of those processes. So you got the first one is imitation, copying the behavior of another person or group intentionally or unintentionally. That's interesting, right? It's not even intentional. You see what everyone's doing, you kind of go along with it. In some situations, there can be also be an element of mimicry. In which people without conscious awareness or intent automatically copy other people's physical movements. That's that happens.
3:33 Jocko Willink? And you know, you hear, um, like interrogators. They'll they'll mimic people's movements to kind of build some. Rep what's the word? Rapport. Rapport with them. You know, you put your hand on your head, I put my hand on your head, kind of like show you that I'm along with you. Next one, conformity and the pressure to conform. Conformity is the adjustment of one's opinions, judgments, or actions so that they become more consistent with the group. Boom, we all know about that. But are you aware of it? I think that's like the the overall underlying thread of my thought through this is are you aware of this stuff? Are you aware that's happening? Are you aware that you're imitating people? Are you aware that they're conforming to their ideas? Are you aware of it?
4:18 Jocko Willink? Are you thinking through things and actually questioning what you're doing? Or are you just going along with it because you're unaware of the fact that it's happening?
4:27 Jocko Willink? Next one, universi- universitality, universality, sorry, universality, which refers to the tendency to assumes, to assume that one's attitudes or behaviors are common to everyone in the group and are permissible because everyone's doing it. Everybody's doing it.
4:45 Jocko Willink? As in the case of rule breaking by a crowd or mob. This has a disinhibiting effect as well as reinforcing effect, setting up a circular reaction. So you do it, I do it, you see that I did it, you do it more, I do it more. We just go in this, this circular reaction.
5:03 Jocko Willink? An enemy, impulsivity and feelings of invincibility also play important rules in mob situations. So that's, you know, mobs is an example of this, of this social contagion. And so if you're in a mob, if you're in a group and you start doing things, question what you're doing. That's my underlying thread of this whole thing. That's what I've been asking myself.
5:28 Jocko Willink? It goes on to this other section. Some fa- some other factors. Mediating social contagion might include the need for approval or affiliation. Sharing the other's goals or inferring or understanding their intentions and motivations. Being quote, inspired and impressed by the other. And in some cases, trying to gain recognition or even notoriety by surpassing the quote accomplishment of the other. As in the case of antisocial psychopathic acts such as mass shootings.
6:04 Jocko Willink? You know, you see that with like kids drinking alcohol.
6:07 Speaker 01 Yeah, adults too.
6:09 Jocko Willink? I am sorry, adults drinking alcohol. Yeah. Just like, oh, I'm gonna drink more than you. I played that game before. It's a dumb game to play. It's social contagion. I should have been saying to myself, why are you doing this right now? What are you doing? What are you trying to, what are you trying to prove something to? What are you trying to prove there, buddy?
6:31 Jocko Willink? This is an interesting one. Emotional contagion. God, we're seeing this all the time, right? The rapid spread of an emotion from one or a few individuals to others. As in a political rally or a sports stadium packed with fans or even just a room full of friends. So your emotions are contagious. Which, you know, from a leadership perspective, we say that all the time. Hey, if you start to panic, everyone's gonna start to panic. If you remain calm, everyone will start to remain calm. But man, if you can, if you allow yourself to get caught up in this stuff without being aware of it, to me, that's a problem.
7:10 Jocko Willink? Group think. The next one, group think, as may occur, for example, in political organizations or in corporations in which cohesiveness or the desire for cohesiveness within a group produces a tendency among its members to agree at all costs. Which leads the group to minimize conflict and reach consensus without critical evaluation, without critical evaluation. Sounds good to me. Oh, that's what we're doing. As, you know, you, you always make that comment. That's what we're doing. You know, that's what we're doing. Hey, if that's what we're doing.
7:41 Speaker 01 Yeah.
7:42 Jocko Willink? You're, you're on board.
7:44 Speaker 01 I'm down for the cause.
7:45 Jocko Willink? You know, would you do that? Well, remember when your, did your parents ever say to you, if your friends rode off a cliff, would you follow them?
7:52 Speaker 01 You know what that is though, really? And it make, you kind of put this into perspective a little bit, really, when, because when your parents say that to you, it's like they're putting it into perspective that you're just freaking following the group and not critically thinking about it.
8:05 Jocko Willink? So your parents did say that to you?
8:07 Speaker 01 Yes, sir.
8:07 Jocko Willink? Okay.
8:08 Speaker 01 Yeah, plenty of times. And I, and I was just like, whatever. I didn't think too much about it till later when I was an adult.
8:13 Jocko Willink? I think my parents were mostly telling me like, hey,
8:17 Jocko Willink? you should do what other people are doing. Freaking settle down, Holmes. Like, can't you just act like everybody else? Why do you gotta be over here? They wanted me to be more conforming and more, uh, more group think.
8:30 Speaker 01 They're telling you, hey, jump off a bridge. Do something normal.
8:34 Jocko Willink? I was literally, like I, you know, I was like a straight edge kid.
8:38 Speaker 01 Yes, sir.
8:39 Jocko Willink? I was that, and that was not normal, you know? The, the normal kids were out, you know, smoking some weed. Smoking cigarettes, smoking cloves. Remember cloves? They might not have made it to your AO.
8:51 Speaker 01 Clothes, that, well.
8:52 Jocko Willink? It was like a thing.
8:53 Speaker 01 Not.
8:53 Jocko Willink? I mean, this is the eighties too, bro. This is the eighties.
8:55 Speaker 01 You know what?
8:56 Jocko Willink? Smoking cloves.
8:57 Speaker 01 So when you were straight edge, how old were you about?
8:59 Jocko Willink? Uh, you know, and here's the thing, we've kind of gone through this before. So straight edge is like a whole, like legitimate movement and there's factions in it and all this kind of stuff.
9:09 Speaker 01 But when you got turned on to the philosophy?
9:11 Jocko Willink? Yeah, yeah. I mean, I was like between the age, this is for me between the ages of like probably 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18. I'm in the, I'm in the navy.
9:21 Speaker 01 So when, when were people like smoking cigarettes or smoking weed or whatever?
9:25 Jocko Willink? Uh, let's say 12, 13, 14, 15, 16.
9:29 Speaker 01 Bro, that's crazy, man. Well, I don't know. I've heard that before too, but I don't, I don't know. Maybe I was in a bubble or what, but there would be people smoking who were like 13, 14, 15 years old and that was just crazy.
9:43 Jocko Willink? Oh, it was like mayhem.
9:43 Speaker 01 For everyone. Yeah. They were like, true, that's crazy. Smoking weed? No kids. That I knew of until like maybe senior year type situation. Yeah. That I saw anyway.
9:54 Jocko Willink? I tell you what, nowadays it's crazy. Like kids are into all that kind of crap at a young, young age.
10:01 Speaker 01 Hmm.
10:02 Jocko Willink? But I was in that mode. And most, very few people, other people, you know, most of the kids, most of the kids that were like my age and they were, you know, smoking some weed, drinking some booze, you know, getting after it in that methodology.
10:22 Jocko Willink? Uh, continue on here. Members of a group can, can often feel peer pressure to go along with the crowd for fear of rocking the boat or out of concern for their teammates' perceptions of them. Cool peer pressure, we get that. Presence of a highly influential, domineering, authoritative role model. So that's when people are just going along. Cause you know, like whatever, the big, the big leaders doing it.
10:48 Jocko Willink? Um, the human propensity to be strongly swayed by compelling narratives. Oh, good story. Guy's got a person's got a good story. That's why you see advertisers use that kind of stuff, stories.
11:01 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah, huh, yeah.
11:02 Jocko Willink? Stories to make you think a certain way.
11:04 Speaker 01 Yeah.
11:05 Jocko Willink? They do a good job sometimes, too.
11:06 Speaker 01 Yeah, I think sometimes.
11:08 Jocko Willink? Sometimes. Sometimes there's commercials that you go that they did a good job on that one. But that's what I think. I always think, I don't think, wow, I want to buy that product. I said, man, that advertiser did a good job on that one because I'm questioning these bastards.
11:20 Speaker 01 Yeah.
11:20 Jocko Willink? Because I'm a, I'm probably the worst person to advertise to.
11:24 Speaker 01 Yeah.
11:25 Jocko Willink? I'm such a jerk when it comes to people trying to get me to do shit.
11:29 Speaker 01 Isn't that kind, doesn't that kind of, and maybe something just think about, isn't that kind of like an opening to advertise to you even more effectively, though? Because you're kind of rigid in that way. I mean, we can argue about the semantics of it, like rigidity. But if you're like the worst guy to advertise to, all you got to do is basically find the, the correct way to advertise. And it might be super highly influential, you know?
11:51 Jocko Willink? If someone pulls that off, it'll be, I'll probably be devastated. You know, I'll probably be buying whatever, you know, flowy hair cutting vacuum thing for your head.
12:01 Speaker 01 Well, I guess it depends on what you mean by ever, what, what is that? I don't even know the difference between advertising and marketing. I don't know. Maybe marketing is the whole thing. Yeah, yeah. But let's say a marketing campaign to get Jocko to not do something.
12:14 Jocko Willink? To get me to not do something.
12:16 Speaker 01 Yeah, that's like not a typical thing, right? Usually a commercial is going to want you to do something, usually. Unless you have these like causes or whatever, but I think someone could get you. They'd be like, all they got to do is launch this campaign.
12:29 Jocko Willink? Oh, they, they could use reverse psychology on me or something like this.
12:31 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's what I think.
12:33 Jocko Willink? So I got to beware of reverse psychology. That someone's going to go, do not. Try this, you will not like this, this drink.
12:43 Speaker 01 Yeah, and then show, show a bunch of stories that you like basically disagree with, or show a bunch of people that you're like can't relate to or something, you're like, I'm not like them, so I'm gonna.
12:52 Jocko Willink? Can't relate.
12:53 Speaker 01 Yeah. Which is very easy to do.
12:56 Jocko Willink? And this falls into suggestibility, the social, social contagion is accelerated by a high degree of suggestibility. Suggestibility is a high potent, highly potent underestimated force with manifestations extending far beyond social contagion. What is suggestibility? Suggestibility is the quality of being inclined to accept and act on the suggestions of others. Or being easily influenced by other people's opinions. It also usually applies, implies a state of uncritical compliance with an influence. This is, so, I think to what you were trying to say about me a second ago,
13:38 Jocko Willink? this is where, I think I, I, I have a, like a tendency just to be like, I'm not listening to this person that's trying to make me do something. I have a real, that'll piss me off. Now, look, I'm not out of control with it, I'm not like, but I definitely am aware that my first reaction is gonna be a pushback. I don't show that, but that's my internal mental reaction is a little pushback. I have to kind of keep it in check so I can actually listen to what people have to say. But it's, it's, it's a little bit of a, you know, internal discussion in my head. These manifestations of social contagion and suggestibility are wide ranging.
14:15 Jocko Willink? Here are a few examples in the mental health field in which a problem probably has been at least amplified by social. So, that is a little excerpt of what we are doing on the Jocko Underground Podcast. So if you want to continue to listen.
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