Jocko Podcast Civil War Excursion With JD Baker Pt.5: The Last Battle of Stonewall Jackson

The Battle of Chancellorsville raged in Virginia May 2 through 6, 1863. Union General Joseph Hooker failed and gave a decisive victory to the Confederates. However, the victory was not a cheerful one for the South. On the night of May 2, Thomas J. “Stonewall” Jackson and his men, returning from an attack, were fired on by their own Confederate brethren who thought Jackson’s group was Union soldiers. Jackson was hit by two bullets in his left arm, which was then amputated. Eight days later Jackson died of complications from pneumonia. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is the Jocko Podcast Civil War Excursion number five with J D Baker and me Jocko Willink. Good evening, J D.

• 0:08JD Baker?

  Good evening, Jocko.

• 0:11Jocko Willink?

  For much of its course between the two armies, the Rappahannock was less than 150 yards wide, said to be an easy hollering distance, and the opposing pickets wasted little time declaring an unofficial truce. It would remain in force unviolated for four and a half months. Inevitably, a good deal of banter was exchanged. Not long after the Fredericksburg Battle, a federal crossed, called across the picket to the 37th North Carolina to ask if there was a sorry corporal over there they would be willing to trade for General Burnside.

• 0:53Jocko Willink?

  If not, he said, would they accept the general in an even swap for a broken down horse?

• 1:01Jocko Willink?

  Following the mud march, the rebel pickets were quick to ask the sodden men of the 6th Corps, when are you coming over again? Have you gotten your mules out of the mud?

• 1:12Jocko Willink?

  They were frequent, there were frequent, good natured comparisons of rations and the discomforts of picket duty and the merits of their respective officers.

• 1:23Jocko Willink?

  It was not long before the pickets were trading more than talk. Sergeant Edmund S. Stevens of the 9th Louisiana explained a new trade to his parents. We take in boxes and other such articles as would answer fixed sales to them and send them across the Yankees and exchange tobacco and cigars for coffee and tea.

• 1:44Jocko Willink?

  Newspapers were another popular medium of exchange. One lucky federal encountered a rebel so desperate for coffee that he would trade whiskey for it. More typical was the transaction recorded by a Pennsylvania soldier on January 6th, two pounds of Union coffee for 10 of Confederate tobacco.

• 2:03Jocko Willink?

  Officers tried to break up this nautical commerce, but without notable success. Supply and demand was at work here in a classical way. The best time to catch officers unaware the men found was at first light. And in those dim hours, the cross river traded flourished. Sergeant Stevens went on to describe the adventures of a man in his company Ezra Denson, who was not satisfied with this arms length trade. He found a piece of flotsam and paddled across to the north bank to do his trading in person. Denson reported that the Pennsylvanians he encountered were very kind, social, and invited him back.

• 2:46Jocko Willink?

  On the subject of war, however, he found them disgusted, discouraged, and dissatisfied, could not digest old Lincoln's action calling for Negro troops. It was mutually agreed that the two armies should meet halfway and shake hands and never fire another gun.

• 3:12Jocko Willink?

  So there you go. That's a little section from the book Chancellorsville. Chancellorsville by Stephen W. Sears.

• 3:22Jocko Willink?

  So this is after the Battle of Fredericksburg, which we covered on the last episode.

• 3:32Jocko Willink?

  What happened is they settle in on opposite sides of the river. And there's an attempt, like another attempt with the mud. Tell us about the mud march that happens.

• 3:42JD Baker?

  Yeah, so obviously, you know, on the last one, we talked about the Battle of Fredericksburg in December of 62. So and if you remember all the way like kind of back before then, you know, Burnside had options of like what he was going to do. So you can either cross right there where it's tidal, right into Fredericksburg, right next to the Telegraph Road, you know, the shortest distance. Or, you know, you can go, you know, upstream on the Rappahannock, and then you've got the ability of those fords, you know, US Ford, Ely's Ford, and you could just ford across and come. Out and around and, and, and avoid any bridging, you know what I mean? Which obviously from, from the whole bridging.

• 4:20Jocko Willink?

  Are the Fords dry if there's not much rain in, in like a drier season? Or are they, there's always a little bit of water going?

• 4:25JD Baker?

  Yeah, there's always a little bit of water. Uh, you know, I, I live, uh, currently, uh, today, I'm probably two and a half miles from Elise Ford. Uh, and, you know, in the summertime, you know, it's going to get low to where like you could like have, maybe have to drag your canoe. Uh, but there's still water there. Uh, so it's, it's continually flowing. Uh, it's not like some of the river basins out here in the west where they just dry up. Uh, there, there's always water. Now in December, January that's there, oh yeah, there's a lot of water. Uh, you know what I mean? All the, the rain, the winter rain. So it, it's still, it, it's a, it's a very, uh, substantial river. Uh, so after the debacle, uh, of goes on with the battle of Fredericksburg, Burnside decides that, okay, I gotta kind of like try to redeem myself a little bit.

• 5:10JD Baker?

  Uh, and, and if you could imagine with the road systems of how they are now coming into the, the winter December and January timeframe, he's going to try to, to again, instead of crossing, uh, right into Fredericksburg, he's going to go down and go with that original plan of let's use the Fords and cross that way to get in. But the road systems, I mean, like literally, I mean, cause okay, you know, you think of like the logistical aspects of, of these guys going through there. And that's why like Confederates, when you were reading there are kind of like making fun of them. Cause they like, they cook a bunch of chow. Like you can tell, like they can always tell when something was about to happen. Cause the guys on pickets, you know, uh, they're, they're observing what's going on. Hey man, they're cooking a lot of chow. Hey, they're putting a lot of stuff in their knapsacks, their issue and ammo.

• 5:54JD Baker?

  Like they can see like, huh, something must be coming. And when they start to go to try to, to move it, the roads are just like that, that Virginia mud to where like, you know what I mean? Like you've ever been on like mud runs, still have to wear like your feet are like getting that.

• 6:12JD Baker?

  So, and now you've got like this cannon and you've got like mules and horses just trying to go.

• 6:17Jocko Willink?

  And there's 70,000 of you.

• 6:19JD Baker?

  Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, there's 70,000 people. So like the first two dudes. Got it pretty good. You know what I mean? Everybody else behind there, it's like when you step in and you like lose your shoe like in the mud, you know what I mean? You can't find it. So it's just this horrific, what they end up calling the mud march. And I mean, like the axles of the wagons and the, and the artillery are just buried and the Confederate privates and stuff on the other, they're watching all of this, needless to say to their entertainment. And you could just imagine down at the common soldier of like, whose bright idea is this? You know what I mean? So that's the Burnside Mud March that they're, they're kind of talking about. And it's just, so after that, it's like,

• 7:04Jocko Willink?

  And the mud march is just, it's just like a one day excursion. Like they realize immediately, like, oh yeah, this is a bad play.

• 7:09JD Baker?

  This is not gonna work. You know what I mean? Like, let's just go in.

• 7:12Jocko Willink?

  When was the mud march?

• 7:13JD Baker?

  Uh, right after the Frederickburg, yeah, just a couple of weeks. Yeah, a couple of weeks. Yeah. Cause I mean, they were a wreck.

• 7:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 7:19JD Baker?

  Uh, but he's still, you know, Burnside, uh, is, is still in command. Uh, and he's trying to redeem himself. You know what I mean? Like he's got orders from Lincoln. I mean, you know, we're gonna go into camp, uh, kind of stuff of winter camps and wait for the spring thaw to come out. Uh, and it's not like, uh, you know, in Virginia, it's not like it's snow. It's just that, that rain and, and the roads. I mean, so logistically moving is just impossible.

• 7:47Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. It's kind of the worst, you know, when I was out in Virginia, it's not quite cold enough to snow, or at least not quite cold enough to keep snow on the ground. Maybe it freezes for a couple of days, but then it's just gonna melt and it's just gonna be 34 degrees, right? So it's not free, you know, cause if it would just get cold enough to snow and freeze the mud, now you could probably get it done. But when it's just 34 degrees, 35 degrees, everything is just sludge, freezing and not optimal for operations. So you guys going to, into winter camp and this winter camp is long. Like, so, so basically both

• 8:28Jocko Willink?

  sides, the Union and the Confederates, they, they, they kind of stand down a bit for the win, for the winter on both sides of the river. And, uh, they're doing these like, you know, we're standing watch, we're walking down, you know, we're observing what they're doing, but we're also just sitting down there talking shit to the guys and trying to get tobacco from them or trying to get coffee from them and whatnot. And that goes on like through the winter, December, all the way until springtime.

• 8:59JD Baker?

  Yeah, cuz you know, you know, March timeframe, you know, in Virginia, you know what I mean? It's gonna start to warm up a little bit, but you know what I mean? Now, you still got the rain that's gonna come in, you know, the springtime, you know, and it's just a lot of rain. So, any thoughts of like how you're gonna logistically move? So, yeah, it's basically almost like the two armies go into camp and they're literally right across the river from each other. So, it'd be just like me and you, you know what I mean? You're on the Union, I'm on the Confederate side, and we've got our little picket duty. You know what I mean? Which, you know, everybody like, okay, you're just gonna go down there by the river. So, it'd be like me and you staring across the table right now at each other, and it's like, hey dude, those things over there. You know what I mean?

• 9:43Jocko Willink?

  It sucks.

• 9:43JD Baker?

  Yeah, the common soldier, but like if you start about like, hey, you know, they want, if you got anything to trick a broken down mule for a general officer, you know what I mean? Like, they're ready. So, that kinda tells you like what the morale is like in the Army of the Potomac with Burnside. One, of what they, you know, I mean, you just look back at Fredericksburg with the pontoon bridging, all the explanations, I mean, it was just, you know, sleeping with the dead, Chamberlain, I mean, the privates are just not happy. Then you're gonna load them all up, get them geared up, take them on a mud march, you know what I mean? They're just not happy, you know what I mean? And, and they haven't had like any kind of a victory. So, and then you're sitting in the camps.

• 10:27JD Baker?

  And there's another book, you know, we don't have, it's an interesting read about an artilleryist guy that served in the artillery, and it's called Hardtack and Bacon. And it's, all it is, is like basically about like what it's like in like army camp as a private. It's not like these dudes are, you know, they're not, they're not at Chatham Manor. You know what I mean? Like, these guys are just, it's just like any other place, like over in the, over in Iraq, you know what I mean? You see a lot of guys, they're in a shit hole, but they're gonna spruce it up, you know what I mean? Make it as best as little homey as they can. So that's basically what these guys are doing. But you know, on the Confederate side, you know, they can't keep their armies in camp

• 11:12JD Baker?

  and and run resupply. So Robert E. Lee is gonna have to do like what he always does. Somebody's gonna have to leave. So he's gonna have to take one of his corps of either Jackson or Longstreet, and he's gonna have to send them away because he can't sustain that size of an army on the Confederate side like they do on the Union side. So he decides this time, he's gonna, he's gonna send Longstreet. You know what I mean? He's gonna go down towards like Suffolk area, Virginia, to kind of get them spread out. But you know, there's that rail system that we talked about over there at the, at the, the slaughter pen area where Meade broke through Jackson's lines. So there's rails to get down all the way to Norfolk area. You know what I mean? It's still there to this day. It's basically, you

• 11:55JD Baker?

  know, for the, the folks listening out, there's like heading down 301, you know, taking that, taking that aspect down to that area. So Longstreet's away. And then, of course, you know, Lee and Jackson have to kind of hang out, you know what I mean, in camps, keeping an eye on like, when's the Army of the Potomac gonna move again? Because they're still have to keep the Army of the Potomac out of Richmond. I mean, that's, and now they're kind of like sitting and watching the Army of the Potomac to see what's they're gonna do next. And that is a, a couple a month process. I mean, you know, the Battle of Chancellorsville is gonna take place in May. So that means that they're not even up and moving, you know what I mean, until April timeframe before they're even gonna stand and like even start planning the

• 12:40JD Baker?

  next operational period.

• 12:41Jocko Willink?

  Now, Burnside self relieved, right? At this point?

• 12:45JD Baker?

  Yeah, he, he's, yeah.

• 12:47Jocko Willink?

  So he's gone?

• 12:48JD Baker?

  Yeah, Burnside's out.

• 12:49Jocko Willink?

  Hooker gets put in command.

• 12:52JD Baker?

  Fightin' Joe.

• 12:54Jocko Willink?

  And, and this was interesting and it's a good, it's a good lesson. So Hooker's been put in command, but, but there's an interesting, the way this happens, just from a leadership perspective to look at this, because Hooker, Hooker's like a political type guy and he'd been undermining, he'd been undermining Burnside the whole time. And he had like minions up in DC, kind of talking smack about Burnside. And he's just one of those kind of conniving guys, it seems like to me. And apparently that's what it seemed like to Lincoln too. So, so in the book Chancellorsville by Sears, once again, here's, here's what the president

• 13:39Jocko Willink?

  says to, here's what the president says to Hooker. The president in his letter went direct, directly to the point, "I think it is best for you to know that there are some things in regard to which I am not quite satisfied with you. I believe you are a brave and skillful soldier, which of course I like. I also believe you do not mix politics with your profession, in which you are right. You have confidence in yourself, which is a valuable, if not indispensable, quality. You are ambitious, which within reasonable bounds, does good rather than harm. However, during General Burnside's tide of command, you have taken counsel of your ambition and thwarted him as much as you could, in which

• 14:24Jocko Willink?

  you did a great wrong to your country." So, what I like about that, and what's a good warning for all human beings, is when you're doing these little, these little maneuvers, you think you're, you think you're looking out for yourself, you think you're making your boss look bad, people see it. And, and by the way, this goes up the chain of command, down the chain of command, your peers, when you, when you do some little thing, you go, "Oh, you know JD and JD and I went and did this mission and, you know, I'm, I'm going to tell everyone that I was the one that came up with the plan." And you don't think JD is going to see that? You don't think the boss is going to be like, why is Jocko taking credit for a plan that these guys came up with together? You're gonna look bad.

• 15:08Jocko Willink?

  And so Hooker ends up not looking great. But at the same time, he has had, you know, a little bit of success. He's been in leadership position. So it seems like Lincoln just kinda, he's the next guy who's gonna give a crack at this thing.

• 15:22JD Baker?

  Yeah, and if you remember from the, you know, the last podcast coming in, I mean, when they offered Burnside that position, he knew it was kinda outside of his wheelhouse. You know what I mean? Like, he didn't want, but then when Lincoln was like, okay, well, I'm gonna put Hooker in there. And he's like, okay, I'll take the job. Because yeah, Hooker did, he did a good job at Antietam. Uh, but again, he's, you know, he's that leader that's always under observation. Everybody's seeing this stuff and I'm with you. I love the way that like Lincoln's gonna set him down and like let him know that, hey dude, like, we know what you were doing, like the entire time of undermining the commander.

• 16:01JD Baker?

  That's a powerful message from the commander in chief of a president to now an appointed army commander that's gonna take over the army of the Potomac. Like, so it's gotta be like Hooker's probably sitting there going like, holy shit, man, that dude knew. Yeah, like everybody, if the president knows, everybody knows.

• 16:21Jocko Willink?

  The, uh, the other interesting thing is a dichotomy too, right? Cause, cause Lincoln's saying, hey, you know, ambition is good, you know? Ambition is good. Within reasonable bounds, it's good, does good rather than harm. But then he's got that Patton-esque thing. You've taken counsel of your ambition, which, you know, Patton said, do not take counsel of your fears, right? So this guy's taking counsel of his ambition. What a freaking classic.

• 16:47JD Baker?

  Yeah, uh, yeah, I love, and, and you know, so obviously if you look at your morale wise and from where you started out with the, the common soldiers, uh, mainly, you know, the morale on the, on the army of Northern Virginia with the Confederates, you know what I mean? They're, they're kinda having a, a good time, you know what I mean? In camp, you know what I mean? Hanging out and

• 17:09Jocko Willink?

  Are they, are they able to like? I mean, they're in their home territory, right? Does that make it that much easier for them? I mean, are they able to like, hey, man, you know, my, my girlfriend's coming up? Are they able to take a little bit of leave? I know the officers are kind of free to come and go, but what about the soldiers?

• 17:25JD Baker?

  Uh, not as much. I mean, they gotta kind of like put in for, you know, kind of like how we used to have to put in for like a leave chat. You know what I mean? And like you want to put in for leave, but if it's during an operational period, commanders will be like, yeah, we can't go right now.

• 17:36Jocko Willink?

  Like, for instance, talking to guys in Vietnam, guys that like the SOG guys that fought with the, with the South Vietnamese guys? They'd go into Laos for four days, come back to Nam, and then their, their Vietnamese counterparts were like, hey, I'm going home for the weekend. But, you know, like we're, I'm in Vietnam. It wasn't like, it wasn't like the guys, the, the army guys, the SF guys that were not going to go anywhere. They're, they're in Vietnam, they're fighting. So could the guys in the, in the Confederate, since they're in Virginia? Did they have a little bit better liberty for lack of a better way of saying it?

• 18:08JD Baker?

  Yeah, they're probably, yeah, they had definitely over the Union side, but you know, when you look at the, uh, at the makeup of, of like the, the army of Northern Virginia. You know what I mean? Like, uh, most has got their Mississippi, Alabama. I mean, they're from all different states, so they're not all from Virginia. Uh, and then, you know, but some of them, you know what I mean? To be able to, to take leave, to go home, especially during that time, it's also going to rely. I mean, it's just like with anything, it's the commander. Uh, and, you know, and we had talked of Jackson, you know what I mean? Jackson, he's not the most, at the time with that corps, um, he's not the most lenient, uh, with the enlisted. You know what I mean?

• 18:51JD Baker?

  Like, cause some of them are from, I mean, if you look back at the way he was like in Winchester, when he had his headquarters up there in the Shenandoah Valley campaign. You know, for a volunteer force that are coming in, uh, it seems to me for, to keep the morale as high as possible. You want these guys to go home to see families. Uh, cause just like, you know, Jackson, he, his wife gets to come and visit him. You know what I mean? But these guys don't have the money, you know what I mean, to kind of pay for that. But then again, if it's almost like, like nowadays, like if I send you back home, you know what I mean? You can, okay, hey, I'm gonna let you go home for 10 days, but you're also gonna recruit five dudes while you're there and you can bring them back. You know what I mean? So.

• 19:30Jocko Willink?

  Could also be like the Iraqi army, send them home on leave and like they don't come back.

• 19:33JD Baker?

  Right.

• 19:34Jocko Willink?

  They're like, hey, well, I had enough of this shit.

• 19:36JD Baker?

  Yeah. But you know, if you go back home and everybody like, because they're all from the same hometown. So if like me and you were in the same regiment and, and next thing you know, like we're on campaign and then I, I show back up home, you know, the picnic at the Sunday afternoon is gonna look odd.

• 19:51Jocko Willink?

  A little awkward.

• 19:52JD Baker?

  Yeah, like JD, how, how are you here? You know what I mean? Oh, well, you know what I mean? I'm kind of on leave for, for how long? I just left, you know, so those aspects of it, of being in the, in that hometown is a little bit different. So the morale on the, on the, on the Confederate side is also better because I mean, they just laid the wood in Fredericksburg. I mean, and then they watched this mud march. And you can hear when you kind of call it out. I mean, these guys are doing a little ball busting of the guys on the Union because these guys are like down in the dumps and, and they're, you know, from all up at the Northeast or, you know, you've got folks from all over and, and, and their commanders that they've had, they haven't had a victory yet. So it's, you

• 20:36JD Baker?

  know, it's kind of like you're, you're on a losing team. You know what I mean? And it just, nobody's buying jerseys, nobody's coming to your games. You know what I mean? And, and you know, the other side is, you know, is just, is having a lot of success at this point in time. So, you know, Hooker coming in command, he's got to kind of look at raising morale. How can I, you know, bring morale up? And, you know, that's where we kind of, you know, talks about with, you know, Hooker brings in the army patches. You know what I mean? So that's where, you know, if you're in the United States Army, you know what I mean? Hooker's the one that they get to design patches for their units and put them on to kind of like, hey, we got patches. What's the Army still uses to this day? They have more, a lot of patches.

• 21:20Jocko Willink?

  And if you're in the SEAL teams, you made patches that were totally illegal and you wore them. No, they, they've gone through a little like, uh, in the SEAL teams, you know, the patches thing started and then the patches thing got kinda wild. And I think right now they kinda shut down patches. You're not allowed to have them. Like I did that, but I did that cause hey, listen, we're working the army, the Marine Corps. Don't be, you know, we can't look like a bunch of jackasses. And then, but, but eventually we, even we wore patches in Task Unit Bruiser. But not me. But, uh, they, they kinda went to an extreme and now they're sort of tightening it up like across universally and they say no patches. But now,

• 22:03Jocko Willink?

  what do you have? A bunch of platoons with, with patches in their pocket, ready to break out as soon as they get the opportunity. That patches thing is, what I'm saying is that patches thing is real. And if you can make that a point of pride, um, it'll, people will work for it. People will hold it, uh, elevate it in their minds. And so that's, that came from Hooker?

• 22:25JD Baker?

  Yeah. So, uh, you know, and, and the logic behind some of the patches always like, you know, cause like one of the units has got like a, you know, their, their second corps, but they got a three leaf clover. And then like, you know what I mean? Like third corps has a four sided diamond kinda stuff. You know what I mean? Like doesn't make sense. Like, you know what I mean? If I'm in third corps, three leaf clover. It's got three leaves. I can remember. You know what I mean? Now you're confusing people. Uh, you know what I mean? So no offense to the army guys. I'm with you. Uh, you know, I, I see Marines and, and we're not allowed to wear patches, uh, either. Uh, but you know, you'll see more tattoos of the first Marine, the, the diamond, uh, that's right up the road from us here, man. Like dudes got that inked on them. They are proud of where they, the second Marine

• 23:08JD Baker?

  Division, like dudes are proud of those. So, uh, yeah, it's just like if they, if they have an opportunity to throw a patch or a, or a sticker or anything, you know what I mean? That, that they're proud of. Yeah. It raises morale. Like dudes do not want to discredit the folks that came before them.

• 23:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 23:25JD Baker?

  That wore that. Uh, so yeah, so he does that. Another way that he does it, which this kind of shows to where like Hooker never did time in cell block, you know what I mean? He was never enlisted, you know what I mean? He wasn't at the, at the, the gallows of the ship. Uh, so he, he, Lincoln comes down, they're going to put on a parade, you know, and, and, uh, and I've never been at a parade that like, I thought was like, cool. Like, oh, hey, man, we got a parade next Friday, man. This is going to be awesome. You know what I mean? Like, maybe at the officers, because they're all going to be up there, all that kind of stuff, and they're going to get excited about the parade. And they're going to be invited over to the general's tent for like, cookies and snacks and stuff. But like, private baker, you know what I mean? I'm standing out there in the middle, like, three quarters of a mile away. I can't

• 24:10JD Baker?

  even see, because some dude in front of me is like, six foot nine. I don't see anything. And I don't get invited for the cookies and snacks afterwards. So, he, he thinks that raises morale and kind of brings it down. But, uh, so Lincoln makes his way down, visits camp and stuff like that. Of course, you know, uh, as, as a, as the, uh, the, uh, commander in chief, that's good that, you know, these folks are coming down and, and visiting, uh, just like they still do, you know, today. I mean, it's a big deal, uh, to come out and, uh, and see how, how the guys and gals are doing, uh, you know, in, in country, uh, while they're, while they're on campaign. Um, so, you know, now Hooker's got to come up with, with his strategy of, okay, how am I going to deal, uh, when we go into campaign? So he's got to come up with his plan.

• 24:57Jocko Willink?

  And then, his plan is basically to do the mud march, but when there's no mud.

• 25:03JD Baker?

  Right.

• 25:03Jocko Willink?

  I mean, fundamentally, they realize they can't get across the, the, the setup, the defensive setup that we talked about in Fredericksburg. The river, the town, the open field, the sunken road, the stone wall, the hill. Like, you're not going to beat that. We got to go west. We got to use the Fords. To get, to maneuver to that area where they have a different approach. And the approach will be to the flank, um, of where Lee and Jackson are at. Basically 10 miles, about 10 miles, 8 miles, 10 miles, 12 miles, something like that to the west.

• 25:40JD Baker?

  Yeah.

• 25:40Jocko Willink?

  That's the idea.

• 25:41JD Baker?

  Yeah, it's basically, you know, if you're looking at Fredericksburg even to this day, it's the modern day Route 3. Back then called the Plank Road. So it's a, I mean, it's a very well-used road, even back then. It even still is today. So if you, if you go from Fredericksburg and you go west, so you're going upstream, up the Rappahannock and, and as you go up past Rappahannock, you get out about like, uh, anywhere between like 8 to 10 miles out, there's, there's a split in the river and, and now you've got the Rappahannock and you've got the Rappadan River that is spilling into the Rappahannock. That's right out there towards that you got the Ely's Ford, US Ford. So you've got these Fords that are out there.

• 26:23JD Baker?

  Uh, but like you said, with the no mud, uh, you know, everything's, you know, everything's drying up. Now you can logistically start moving folks. And of course, you know, during that whole entire time, you've got the cavalry guys doing their job reconnaissance. They're watching the Fords on both sides. Uh, you know what I mean? Of seeing like, okay, how, what's, is, you know, looking at the depths of the water? How's the banking? Are we gonna be, you know, because you've got engineers that are looking at this stuff. Uh, so all that is kind of going on after Hooker decides that, okay, yeah, we're gonna, we're gonna head west. We're gonna use the Fords. Uh, and then, because then that's, that's gonna cause is Robert E. Lee. You know what I mean? He's gotta stay in Fredericksburg because Hooker's also gonna leave folks back there.

• 27:07JD Baker?

  So it's not like the whole army of the Potomac's just gonna get up and abandon, uh, right above at Chatham Manor, right across from there. So, so this is gonna cause a dilemma of like, okay, he can get up and move his force. But if he leaves a division back there and he takes off and starts going west, well now, Robert E. Lee's gotta make a decision too. Uh, and, and it's just him and Jackson. And when he let Longstreet go, he did keep back two divisions, uh, that, that belonged to Longstreet. So you're kind of looking at like Jackson's corps, like a corps plus.

• 27:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, corps plus.

• 27:42JD Baker?

  Yeah. So he's got like a corps plus, but. He can't just take his corps and move west to counter this offensive that Hooker's gonna do and leave nobody in Fredericksburg because then now they can just hop across, they can gain a foothold and they can gain the heights beyond Fredericksburg, game changer. You know what I mean? If they, if they ever would have achieved those Mary's Heights beyond Fredericksburg, dude, now he can move his logistical base to, yeah, it's game on. So you're kind of got like, it's a chess match with Robert E. Lee and, and Joe Hooker now.

• 28:19Jocko Willink?

  So they go to execute this thing. When, when Hooker starts to move these, are they, are they being clandestine about it? Are they trying to, are they trying to like, keep a low profile as they start moving 80,000 people, whatever the number is? Or are they just like, all right, we're just gonna try and do this as fast as we can?

• 28:36JD Baker?

  Yeah, well, they're gonna try to-

• 28:37Jocko Willink?

  Do they leave at night?

• 28:38JD Baker?

  Yeah, okay. Yeah. So they're, but like I said, again, like when it gets out to the, you know, uh, the opposite, because of the river and the terrain and it's winter time, there's no foliage, you know, even though these guys are back, they're running reconnaissance on each one. But you, when people are cooking and they're, you know, you can always tell when there's activities in camp and everybody knows when it hits the springtime, they're gonna go into campaign. So it's like, if you're on leave or you're recruiting, like, everybody needs to start coming back. Um, so-

• 29:11Jocko Willink?

  But down to like the legitimate tactics of this, so I'm Hooker. Am I saying, all right, guys, you know, it's getting dark at, at six o'clock at night, don't do anything, don't do any big moves. Six o'clock at night goes, I want, you know, that's when you're gonna start moving. Are they doing it like that? Is it clandestine movement to the best of their ability?

• 29:30JD Baker?

  To the best of their ability. Yeah. Because if you look at it, okay. So even though on these roads, which are not like improved roads, like we kind of think of today, it's not the telegraph road, it's not the plank road. So these roads, like even still to this day, they're only two lane roads to get over to these Fords. So it's gonna take a minute to get there. So if they're gonna pick up, they need as much to buy, as much time as possible, because you know, well, anything, if, if Robert E. Lee can get to those Fords- You know what I mean? Yeah, it's just like South Mountain trying to come over there. There's only certain

• 30:06Jocko Willink?

  Channelized area.

• 30:06JD Baker?

  You have a channelized area and that's where you can get them. So yeah, they're going to try to get and now it's a race. Who can, if they can get across those Fords and get up on to what is like Spotsylvania County and out of Stafford County, now they got a foothold. So yeah, they're going to try to get across there first and Hooker does a good job of that.

• 30:25Jocko Willink?

  And Lee meanwhile, he, well Hooker, first of all, like you said, Hooker leaves Sedwick and like 40,000 guys.

• 30:34JD Baker?

  Yep.

• 30:35Jocko Willink?

  This, this is mass movement. I mean, 40,000 guys is the stay behind on, on the river, on Fredericksburg, looking across the banks of the Fredericksburg. That's Sedwick.

• 30:47Jocko Willink?

  Meade, Howard and Slocum, they're Hooker's guys. They do this big maneuver to the west. Lee, he leaves General Early with a division at Fredericksburg and what they do, this is what makes me think about this clandestine thing. Cause what they do, right, is they, they set up, like they thin out their line and they put fires throughout the line to make it appear as if they're, they don't, you know, everyone's still there. That's kind of their deception mode.

• 31:15JD Baker?

  Yeah. So it would be like, you know, if, if you and I were, you know, a couple of privates back there and we're hanging out in Fredericksburg, you know what I mean? Like in the evenings and stuff, we're moving up and down the lines to give the appearance that we're all still there. And then, you know, Robert E. Lee's going to drop back, you know, with Jackson and the rest of the corps, and now they're behind Mary's Heights so that they can start heading out. But, but their direct route to get to, like, like I said, I mean, from Fredericksburg to the Chancellorsville House at those crossroads of Ely's Ford Road and, and the Plank Road is, dude, it's 10 miles. And on the Plank Road, it's a quick movement. I mean, that is great

• 31:57JD Baker?

  movement for Robert E. Lee. So it's going to take a while for those, but yeah, Hooker and these guys, and they're going to use multiple Fords to spread them all out. You know what I mean? So they're all, so when you look at the guys, like we talked about it with like Meade and and Slocum, you know what I mean? So you've got like this three-prong movement and they're all going to go to different Fords. And then even when they come up out of the Ford into Pennsylvania County, then they're gonna, there's like, there's, there's even still to this day, there's three prominent roads to get back into Fredericksburg, right? So you got the main road, which is the Plank Road, but then you've got Old Plank Road that is to the south.

• 32:38JD Baker?

  And then right along the river is River Road. And River Road is, I mean, now it's, it, River Road is probably the least traveled road, but it's, it's still there. But you get on that, man, and I mean, like, it's still to this day, there's nothing out there, man. It's, it's, it's, there's, there's no strip malls, there's no nothing, man. I mean, even to this day, River Road is like, the locals, because I'm a local, the locals use River Road to move in and around the area to avoid Route 3 and I-95. Like, if you're a local, you know where River Road is. So Mead's gonna be on River Road. So he's gonna have a three-prong approach,

• 33:18JD Baker?

  even coming from the west to the east with that use of those three roads, if that kind of makes sense.

• 33:26Jocko Willink?

  Yep. So, so just to recap, you got Hooker. He maneuvers out to the west. He's got 138,000 men with him. Which, again, look, hey, man, y'all's in the military, you know, I maneuvered around, we had 40 guys in a task unit, bro. You know, you and I were talking last night, you know, how long does it take to get, you know, I got four kids in my family. Like, how long does it take, if I sprung on my family, hey, we're going to restaurant, we need to leave now. That's like 15 minutes to get everyone out of the car. We're talking 138,000 people. They move west, they get across these Fords, and then they, there's,

• 34:07Jocko Willink?

  basically, what you're saying is, there's three paths to get back to, towards Fredericksburg.

• 34:14JD Baker?

  Towards Fredericksburg.

• 34:15Jocko Willink?

  The, the most northerly one is River Road, and then there's the new Plank Road, and then there's Old Plank Road. And that's where they're gonna start moving down. Uh, the other side, you got Lee and he had left, left some of his guys with General Early. The rest of them had backed off the ridge line and started moving west as well. Where, where these two forces are going to meet now. Interestingly, Lee, he puts, he, he goes up Old Plank Road and New Plank Road. Like that's where he decides, Buck, he doesn't have anyone on River Road.

• 34:53JD Baker?

  Nobody.

• 34:54Jocko Willink?

  And by chance, Meade, he is on River Road with his troops.

• 35:00JD Baker?

  Yep.

• 35:00Jocko Willink?

  They start, they start moving east towards Fredericksburg.

• 35:06Jocko Willink?

  As, as the, the two armies kind of skirmish for the first time. They kind of like chance contact almost.

• 35:13JD Baker?

  Yep. It's a meeting in gate. I mean, it's, uh, yeah, they just, so you got these, these, these two armies. So you got two parades and they're on the plank road. So it's, you, you got the, the two parades and they're kind of coming in. And, you know, they're both kind of going to go into battle formation. So they're going to collide right there. And it's right next to, there's a farm that's still there. It's the first day of Battle of Chancellorsville is going to take place right there on the plank road. And, and that from downtown Fredericksburg to this day, that's like six miles. So you got like, you know, a few more miles to get back to the Ely's Ford Road. So yeah, so Hooker's doing pretty good, man. Like he got across the Fords.

• 35:58JD Baker?

  You know what I mean? He's got them in motion and they're moving towards Fredericksburg. Robert E. Lee leaves, you know, his folks, a, a division back in Fredericksburg. And he's moving east to west and you just got two forces that are going to hit each other.

• 36:12Jocko Willink?

  So if whatever we're saying right now, like it seems complicated, but now you're getting to a point where you just have two, it's like a basic, two armies online looking at each other. But at, at one point, the army, you know, the, the, the Union troops to, to their left flank, there's no resistance. And so Meade is pushing down this river road. And this is where it gets interesting. Hooker, like they start to, okay, there's the, there's, there's the Confederate troops. Okay, we're going into battle. And what Hooker wants to do is he wants to recreate what happened to him or what happened to Union troops at Fredericksburg. He wants to go into the defense.

• 36:55Jocko Willink?

  He wants to have the Confederates attack them so they can sit there in good positions in a defense position, which is a hell of a lot easier. It's a hell of a lot easier to sit behind a stone wall or a tree and wait for someone to run at you and shoot them than it is to run at someone that's hiding behind a stone wall or tree. So that's what he wants. He wants to go into the defense. And so he doesn't realize the opportunity that Meade has. Cause Meade's clear, he could go all, he could split forces. There's all kinds of maneuvers he could make. Hooker doesn't, I guess he doesn't recognize that and he recalls him, says, come back.

• 37:29JD Baker?

  Yeah, I mean, so if you take the river, and it's even still to this day. So if anybody, if you're ever, you know, driving around that area, you go get on the river road from Ely's Ford and like literally you're going to be driving along and you can go all the way to, to modern day route one, the telegraph road. And he unimpeded, like not one, not even like, not even a, a traffic guard. I mean, there's not even a stoplight that's going to stop you. You know what I mean? And he could have gone and cut off Robert E. Lee on the modern day telegraph road and had Robert E. Lee and, and the division left at Fredericksburg cut in half.

• 38:12Jocko Willink?

  And Robert E. Lee's would have been almost enveloped. I mean, like almost completely surrounded.

• 38:16JD Baker?

  Yeah. And, but because like Hooker, we all kind of know of like, you know, kind of talking a little bit about Hooker. I mean, Hooker's all about Hooker. You know what I mean? So he's gonna, yeah, he wants to, to create, he wants to get the, the high ground. I mean, where he ends up pulling everybody back into this defensive position to kind of recreate something, uh, instead of being offensive, he's going to want Robert E. Lee to come and attack them. You know what I mean? Cause of course it's good. So, and he can anchor in. His flank where he pulls me back and you've got the river, you know what I mean? So nobody, so if you're looking at how he's gonna set it up, you know, so Hooker,

• 38:57JD Baker?

  they're kind of facing, you know, west to east, looking at the direction of march of Robert E. Lee. So he's gonna have meeds, you know, core that's down there and they're gonna tie into that river, meaning that now their extreme left flank, you know, Robert E. Lee can't cross over that river. Yeah, it's protected. But then he's gonna run the other side of the other, of his extreme right flank and he's got Howard, uh, you know, with, with his guys is, is the extreme right flank and it's, it's in the air, meaning it's, it's vulnerable.

• 39:35JD Baker?

  It's exposed. Uh, and because he's thinking, okay, these guys are here. Nobody is gonna be, nobody's gonna come over and threaten my right flank, man. So he leaves it that way, thinking that, you know, Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson are, obviously he didn't watch enough film prior to the game, you know what I mean? Like, uh, you know, he, he, he doesn't have the film on, on, on Jackson, obviously, because he's, he's gonna leave that right. He thinks that they're just gonna come in and do a frontal attack. Like that's all that's in their wheelhouse. They're just gonna do a frontal. He's gonna sit there and he's, he's in good ground of where he's at, except for his extreme right flank is

• 40:18JD Baker?

  exposed and like where it's exposed at is like it's, it's open farmland. I mean, it's, it's flat, open area, uh, even still to this day. Um.

• 40:29Jocko Willink?

  And what he got on Howard? His nickname is uh-oh Howard?

• 40:33JD Baker?

  Yeah, Howard, he's a West Point guy. He's young. Uh, you know, Howard's, he's

• 40:37Jocko Willink?

  Isn't it strange? Isn't it strange? You could say he's a West Point guy and that could, that doesn't really mean all that much at this point. I mean, like it gives him some sort of like, some sort of starting point, but we've already experienced people that are West Point guys that are horrible and West Point guys that are outstanding. So, what do we got with uh-oh Howard?

• 40:57JD Baker?

  Uh oh, you know, it's oh oh Howard is his is his name. And and he's he's got a lot of immigrants. I mean, I want to say like in in his core alone with the Germans and all these guys. I mean, there's like seven different languages being spoke. You know, and of course, I mean, when you look at communications, that that's going to be that's going to be pretty tough. But, you know, Howard, he's not. I mean, I never knew the guy personally, but yeah, I mean, I don't want to operate with this guy, man. You know, he's he's he's a.

• 41:32JD Baker?

  You know, he's extremely, you know, he's extremely religious. He's young. He he means well. If if I could give any props to to Howard, you know, Howard University of today, like the first ever, you know, African American college is named Howard University after General Howard. So I mean, OK, so he's a good guy. But there's a lot of good guys out there that aren't good like commanders.

• 42:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I was gonna say that good guys that you don't want commanding your open right flank.

• 42:04JD Baker?

  Right, you know what I mean? So, uh, so Howard and the uh oh of his nickname kind of is is gonna come mainly because of the battle that we're about ready to take place. So, you know, if you look at how they got laid out, like if I if I was if I was Hooker and and Hooker was at Fredericksburg with Meade and we talked about him in the last episode, like Meade was successful. You look at some of the commanders that that he has underneath him of Hancock and Meade and and Reynolds and some of these guys, I mean, he's he's got some good commanders that are out there. I would say that his weakest is Howard. And he's got him out there on the extreme right flank and it's unprotected.

• 42:51JD Baker?

  You know what I mean? Like if it's me, I would kinda tuck that dude in in between like a couple of my really good guys. To kinda keep that lookout for him. So if he does decide to do something stupid, you know what I mean? Me could be like, hey dude, don't do that. You know what I mean? And kinda rein him back in. But for whatever reason, uh, you know, Hooker puts him, but Hooker literally thinks nobody is gonna come and threaten my extreme right flank. So that's how we end up there. So yeah.

• 43:22Jocko Willink?

  So is that kinda how the this this this day ends goes gets dark? Basically as these two giant armies, you got 138,000 from the Union. Lined up the across from them. Is and and by by across from them, 60,000 troops from Lee, we're talking like three quarters of a mile. But that's how that's how much they're separated by.

• 43:45JD Baker?

  Yeah, I mean, uh, so right there on on the, uh, if you're looking at, just like you had stated, uh, before. The main area of concentration where they kinda end up is is right there where the old plank road is and and the new plank road of modern day Route 3. And from from the corner of where the Chancellorsville House is, which is at the intersection of Ely's Ford Road. And and the plank road right there, there's a, of course, there's a nice house. That's one of the nicest houses in the entire area. Uh, the house isn't there anymore. The foundation is a part of the park. I wish the house was still there. There's photographs of it and stuff that you can see. So it's a, it's a nice house. Uh, and that's where Hooker's gonna set up his headquarters.

• 44:31JD Baker?

  And then he's gonna have this defense, uh, you know, posture around him. Kind of a 180, you know, the left, the his extreme left anchored on the river. And then he's got his right kinda circling around in that in that 180. Uh, and just, yeah, three quarters of a mile, like literally you go across the plank road. You go through, there's a, there's another little open, uh, farm area, uh, that you're coming into. And then you're gonna hit the the old plank road. Right there at Old Plank Road. And where it intersects, there's, there's an old Catherine's Furnace Road. There's an old furnace that's not operational at the time, but there's an old furnace that's back there in that Chancellorville

• 45:14JD Baker?

  area. And it's called, so it's the Catherine Furnace Road. Where that road meets the old Plank Road, that's where Robert E. Lee pretty much ends up with his headquarters. Dude, like, you know, I mean, I live right there. Like the Chancellorville, right there, the Cracker Box that we talk about later on, it's, it's a stone's throw from, from where I live right now. Every time, and I run, I run the Cracker Box and I run the Flank Martz at least if not twice a week. Love running out there, man. And, and every time, it always amazes me when I leave the Cracker Box from the old Plank Road and I run to where the new Plank Road is. Dude, it's less than a mile.

• 45:57JD Baker?

  Like I'm running it. So, I mean, you can, you can check it on my Garmin. It's on Strava. So you know what I mean? Like if you don't believe like, oh, it was this many miles. Dude, I've, I've run it a thousand times. And it amazes me how close these two armies are. I mean, it's just unbelievable of how close they are. So yeah, day one, they both stop and now it's like, now they're looking at each other. And we know what Hooker wants to do. He wants defense and he wants the Army of Northern Virginia to come do a frontal on him. Cause he set up for it, man. I don't know if he sent a memo over to Lee like, hey, I'm ready. Come on over. Hit me with a frontal assault. But then you got like, okay, so now Lee is now the guy that has to kind of go into council of like,

• 46:40JD Baker?

  okay, what are we gonna do with, with this new threat? He made it across the river. Check. You know what I mean? He threw the Fords. We couldn't stop him. We made his way in. We ran a quick blocking. We intercepted him. Now they're gonna sit there in the defense, but he doesn't know that Hooker's gonna run defense operations either. He doesn't know if he's gonna get up. So, you know, they're, they're kind of like trying to figure each other out of like, what are these guys gonna do? But then again, they're so close and you get eyes on. If I see you stop and you immediately start digging in.

• 47:14JD Baker?

  Okay, so obviously you're going defensive operations. Now, in 2022, if we stop for more than an hour, dude, we're digging in, we're putting sandbags, even if we're gonna leave in 45 minutes, like, we like digging. You know what I mean? Like, that's why we like carrying around like E tools and shit, you know what I mean? And we love engineers with like backhoes. As soon as we get there, let's just start digging. So, and this is becoming pretty common practice now with these folks of like this whole introduction of a trench and a fighting position kind of thing. So now you've got Robert E. Lee is the one that needs to make a decision of what he's gonna do.

• 47:52Jocko Willink?

  And this is where you get this, this kind of famous conversation of which what was actually said during this famous conversation isn't really known 100%, but this is a conversation, I know you and I always refer to it as the Cracker Box. Does everyone refer to it as the Cracker Box conversation?

• 48:08JD Baker?

  Everyone should refer to it as the Cracker Box conversation. Because if you go to the Cracker Box, there is a placard there, and it says, "The Cracker Box."

• 48:18Jocko Willink?

  So, that's what it is.

• 48:19JD Baker?

  It's the Cracker Box, man.

• 48:20Jocko Willink?

  So we got Lee and Jackson sit down at this old Cracker Box to figure out what the plan is gonna be. And, and how's it go down?

• 48:34JD Baker?

  Yeah, so, you know, this is one of those times in, in the history of the world that, like, because there wasn't anybody there that, that heard the conversation of like, and it's the Cracker Box, so it's like, you know, the hard tack. And, you know, they're left, it's, it's kind of like, you know how we get like the ammo crates?

• 48:54Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 48:54JD Baker?

  And then, you know, what's the first thing that, you know, people do with ammo crate? They put it back together and now that's like your field toilet, you know what I mean? Like, you know, so, kind of the same thing.

• 49:04Jocko Willink?

  It could be field toilet, it could be field desk, your field chair, like, it could be anything.

• 49:07JD Baker?

  It has multiple, you know, things you could do with it. Cracker Box, same way. So they're gonna, they're gonna sit down at this Cracker Box and, and like, literally, they're, at first, they're kind of getting a little bit of harassment, fire, you know what I mean? They got guys shooting at them. So they move in, like, right off of where E Lee's, where, not E Lee's Ford, but, uh, where the, uh, The Catherine's Furnace Road and the Old Plank Road and it's just like right off of there and there's a, there's a little marker that's there like, like where the fire was. And there's a really cool portrait and it's, it's Jackson and Lee sitting on Cracker Box. It's kinda like how you and I are sitting here kinda looking at each other and we got

• 49:48JD Baker?

  a fire going and we're like, what do you, what do you think we should do tomorrow? And, uh, and you know, one, I mean, we talked about the numbers. I mean, we're basically, it's three against one. So it's like three Jacos against one JD. Dude, even like right now, that's not good odds. Hell, it's not really good odds with just one Jocko and one JD. You know what I mean? Like, so now there's three Jacos and one JD. So do I want to go offensive like against like three Jacos? That, that like, I'm not a smart man if I'm gonna do that. Unless I got like a shitload of ammo, you know what I mean? And I could

• 50:27JD Baker?

  separate. So he has this conversation and Jackson is gonna convince Robert E. Lee that dude, I think we should go offensive and I think I'm gonna take two thirds of the folks that we have here. Cause remember he's like, he's got the core plus. So he's got those, those two division guys that were, you know, that he kinda like adopted over and got from a long street. So he's gonna leave those two guys, McCaws and them back there with, with Robert E. Lee and he's gonna take the rest of his core. And he's like, you know, we can go down what is now called the Jackson flank march. Uh, so I can

• 51:08JD Baker?

  go down Ely's, you know, this, uh, the Catherine's Furnace Road and then you take that road and it'll take me up to the Brock Road and then I can go all the way out and around and get over onto the plank road and then I can come in and I can hit them on that extreme right flank. And they're like, well, I mean, do you, do you kind of know the route kind of thing? Well, not really, but you know, we got, there's Lacy, the Lacy farm, you know, Reverend Lacy. So, you know, they've, they've got local. I mean, they're, they're basically, they got a lot of local support. It, it is Spotsylvania, Virginia. Uh, so they're not worried about like anybody coming in trying to do, they're, they're getting support from the locals and everybody knows Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson in Virginia. Uh, you know what I mean?

• 51:53JD Baker?

  They're like, hey dude, you guys don't have tents? Come take my house. You know what I mean? They would love to have them stay there, but they, they don't. And, oh, and not only with, uh, with, with, uh, with Reverend Lacy, uh, and also, uh, they're going to need a guide, uh, you know what I mean? Someone to guide them on this road. And this is literally like very unimproved roads. Like the road that I'm talking about now, when you go down there to Catherine's furnace, it's not paved even still to this day, man. It's a gravel road. So, and now, you know what I mean? Like it's, uh, I mean, I just couldn't imagine like it was, it was a well-used road. You know what I mean? Because of the, of the furnace that was there, but it's, it's not anything.

• 52:38JD Baker?

  I mean, it's, it's a path through the woods. Kind of, that's what I kind of look at it as. Back then it was, it was a two-track path going through the, the woods of, of, of, uh, of Chancellorsville. So, you know, at there, that's basically what the conversation is, is kind of going down with, which that's why I wish like, I would love to have listened to how they came up with, I'm three quarters of a mile. I'm outmanned three to one. You're going to take two thirds of this force. And like I said, uh, you know, you get different distances of like, what's the distance all the way out and around? And I've ran it a lot. Uh, it's right. I mean, you're looking at 14 miles.

• 53:23JD Baker?

  So yeah, just like you talked about, like, how long does it take to get like the four kids and the wife into the car? You know what I mean? Now you're gonna take thousands of people, you know what I mean? Through this two-track road, through the woods, out and around 14 miles. And you've literally got an army that could just stand up and you don't know if they're gonna go offensive. You don't know what they're gonna do.

• 53:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's, that's really the crazy part, or one of the crazy part of the gamble is, you know, you, you leave only two divisions to face 135. If those, if the Union gets up and goes on the offensive, if they do a frontal attack in the morning, they're, they're gonna mop, mop up.

• 54:04JD Baker?

  Oh, they're gonna roll them over like a wet napkin. I mean, even with those two, I mean, they're, they're gonna like, I mean, it would, it's overwhelming forces. It would just be overwhelming. They would, especially if like, if Jackson gets out to like nine miles away, you know what I mean? And Longstreet's not even there, you know what I mean? Like, he, there's not enough time, distance, space to get Longstreet and his corps there, even if it's like, okay, well, Longstreet's due to arrive at like 10 tomorrow morning. So yeah, if you take off, it's, yeah, let's roll the dice and he'll get here. But that's not even in the picture. Like, Longstreet is out of this picture, completely out. So it's just Lee and Jackson. And he's convincing the boss that he's gonna, he's gonna take these folks and he's gonna go out and he's

• 54:48JD Baker?

  gonna hit the extreme right flank of the Union Army.

• 54:51Jocko Willink?

  The ultimate indirect attack, ultimate flanking move.

• 54:56JD Baker?

  Ultimate.

• 54:58Jocko Willink?

  And Ja, and, and Lee gets credit for agreeing to it. I mean, he says, okay, we'll roll the dice, because that's a huge roll the dice.

• 55:06JD Baker?

  Yeah, I mean, he's the boss. So I mean, he, anything that happens, he owns it. Uh, and, and so, you know, and it's always pretty cool, because like, when you talk about like individuals like that are gonna get up and like, and like, start like getting after it, you know what I mean? Like, Jackson's up early. You know what I mean? So he's up early the next morning. He, he's got his task at hand. Uh, you know, uh, the Reverend Lacy, uh, they end up getting, uh, hooked up. Uh, one of the guys from over at the, at the, uh, at the, at the old, um, at the old furnace over there, uh, Welford's son is going to act as a guide. Uh, so basically you got like a, a, a young teenager, uh, which I could only imagine, you know what I mean?

• 55:50JD Baker?

  You've got this guy, general officer of Stonewall Jackson, and then here comes this 13 year old kid out there. Follow me, dude. You know what I mean?

• 55:57Jocko Willink?

  But you know, he knows the woods.

• 55:58JD Baker?

  Oh, he knows it.

• 55:59Jocko Willink?

  Where you want to go? I got you.

• 56:00JD Baker?

  Yeah. And, uh, so, you know, he's, he's up early, uh, and, and, and they're off and, and moving. Uh, they've got acting as a guide and, uh, and it's, it turns out it's going to be, you know, it's the ultimate flank. Uh, of what they're about ready to, to try to do is, is just, it's unimaginable in today's day and age. That you could convince a commander to take two thirds and, and try to pull something off like that, uh, of what they do.

• 56:28Jocko Willink?

  Now they're trying to keep it clandestine as well.

• 56:31JD Baker?

  Oh, yeah.

• 56:31Jocko Willink?

  I mean, obviously, but it's hard to what you got 20, 30, 25,000 troops or something like this. You're trying to quietly move out. Like that's, how do you get the word to 25,000 people? Right? How do you get the word? So decentralized command, you know, all right, hey, bring the commanders in. We tell them, they tell them, they tell them, they tell them. And eventually by the morning, we got 25,000 people to stand up quietly and start walking out to the west following this 13 year old kid. That's going to take us around the flank.

• 57:03JD Baker?

  Yeah. And, uh, when you look at, at Jackson, you know, I mean, okay. So now we're in 63. So, you know, Jackson's been through the valley. Uh, he's, you know, so if you're in his core, it's like I always say, you know, there, there's one thing that's always true with Jackson. You're going to get up in the morning, you're going to get on the road face to the right, you're going to hike. And there's going to be a gunfight at the end of it. You know what I mean? Like you could leave your shovels at home because it's just like a Fredericksburg, like as soon as Jackson shows up, let's go offense. You know what I mean? He's, uh, And so those guys, they're, they're in tune and we're talking about morale. They're like, yeah, we're about ready to get after it again. You know what I mean? So you gotta look at the morale side of both sides. I mean, you know, if you're there, these guys have been

• 57:47JD Baker?

  winning. And coming off of Fredericksburg, they're like, yep, dude, they, they just crossed that river again, man. We're gonna go out, man, and bring the wood to that ass. And so they're up. But like, like I said, when you go down there, even today, you can see there's a, there's a fork in the road. When you get down there towards Catherine's furnace, and that is an exposed area to where if, if somebody's gonna see you, that's where you're gonna get seen. So as they get up, and it's still, you know, it's wooded, but you can still see, I mean, and they're so close together. And when you look at like lines on a map, so if anybody's like looking at a map right now, and you look at that, just because that line there, that they've got folks that are pushed out forward. You

• 58:31JD Baker?

  know what I mean? Just like on the same thing that are doing pickets, and, and, and LPOPs, listening posts, observation posts. So people are trying to gain eyes on the enemy, and they see Jackson. And it's reported back. And nobody does anything.

• 58:53Jocko Willink?

  So they did, so they're just sitting there waiting. And they see the movement. They don't, they don't react to it. They don't, they don't counter. They don't shift their position at all. They don't start digging in over on that right flank. They just, nothing.

• 59:07JD Baker?

  No, well, I mean, they're, they're, they're digging in. So they've got like, they've got their, like, trying to establish their defensive position. But they're not anchored in on anything. And their only, you know how like, nowadays, you got like a primary fighting position, and alternate firing position, and then a supplementary firing position. So that just in case, like, the first two can, can cover the same mission. But then you always make another position of like, what if shit happens? We need to be able to now face west instead of face east. They got none of that. They are, they are one set mind. These guys are gonna come from east to west, and that's the way they're gonna hit us. Nobody's gonna come on, from out on the west and hit us on our extreme

• 59:52JD Baker?

  right flank.

• 59:55Jocko Willink?

  So Jackson makes it. And like you said, this isn't a tough march, right? This, this march?

• 1:00:00JD Baker?

  No, I mean, of course, that's, yeah, it's flat.

• 1:00:02Jocko Willink?

  Relatively speaking.

• 1:00:03JD Baker?

  Yes, relatively.

• 1:00:04Jocko Willink?

  14 miles.

• 1:00:04JD Baker?

  Yeah, 14 mile, yeah, I mean.

• 1:00:06Jocko Willink?

  I shouldn't put it that way.

• 1:00:07JD Baker?

  Yeah, no, no, no.

• 1:00:08Jocko Willink?

  This is not an excessively challenging march. It's not like a bunch of hills.

• 1:00:11JD Baker?

  No.

• 1:00:12Jocko Willink?

  The, the terrain is not too harsh.

• 1:00:14JD Baker?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:14Jocko Willink?

  So they're able to pull it off.

• 1:00:15JD Baker?

  Yep.

• 1:00:15Jocko Willink?

  With, for them, relative quickness and.

• 1:00:18JD Baker?

  It is, it's an, yeah, it is an, it's an easy, flat march. There's no hill street that you gotta go up and over to get to it like, you know, just down the road. It's a, it's like down here, uh, you know, running along South Beach and then jumping on the bike path. That, it's nice and flat. You know what I mean? I've, I've run it a bunch. So yeah, it's an, it's an easy march, but it's still gonna take them some time. So they're gonna roll out in the morning. They're not gonna get around there until later in the afternoon. I mean, you're still moving, you know, 20,000 fricking people.

• 1:00:45Jocko Willink?

  14 miles.

• 1:00:46JD Baker?

  Yeah, with, with all their stuff.

• 1:00:47Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:48JD Baker?

  You know, so he's gotta take the artillery. So yeah, it's, it's gonna take a while to get around there. And you could just, so everybody's, so Jackson, there's another famous photo of Jackson and Lee. You know, right before he takes off on the flank march, and it's the last time that Robert E. Lee and Jackson are gonna personally be together. Not to spoil anything, uh, you know what I mean? But it's, that's the last time. It's a pretty famous photo, uh, of the two. Jackson's sitting up on Little Sorrel, his favorite horse. Uh, and him and Robert E. Lee, it's, it's their last, last meeting. And then Jackson's off. And now you got Robert E. Lee, and I can only imagine him hanging out right there at the Cracker Box. You know what I mean? Three quarters of a mile. And then he watches the last private

• 1:01:34JD Baker?

  kinda turn down towards, you know, the Catherine's furnace, and now they're off to the distance. And now it's a waiting game. Cause they're just, they're basically, you got Lee sitting there going, waiting to hear fire.

• 1:01:48JD Baker?

  Of the start of this flank attack. I couldn't imagine the pacing, like, how does he entertain himself? You know what I mean? Not taking his mind off of things. And I could even imagine the folks that they leave back there, McClaws and them.

• 1:02:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:02JD Baker?

  And they're just like, dude, they're gone, man. I mean, it's just us. You know what I mean? And yeah, of course, do they got an escape route? Could they, you know, try to pull back and get back into Fredericksburg? But now you're just, you're leaving Jackson? You know what I mean? I mean, this is a, this is a huge risk of what they're doing. But Jackson, he makes it out and around.

• 1:02:22Jocko Willink?

  And then he gets, he gets on the right flank and sets up pretty much, he's on, he pretty much straddles the, the plank road. That's what he's gonna do.

• 1:02:30JD Baker?

  Yep.

• 1:02:31Jocko Willink?

  With 25,000 and then, and then roll in.

• 1:02:35JD Baker?

  Yeah, and he's got them like stacked, so he straddled and he's got his divisions like in depth. You know what I mean? So it's almost like, you know, you got like a halfback and a fullback. You know what I mean? You're gonna run a triple option, but you don't know who's gonna get the ball. So you got like a lot of options of, you know, do I push this one to the left, to the right? So yeah, he's gonna come in and of course, you got Howard over there. Nobody's expecting them to come. You know what I mean? And then, you know, they're all over and, you know, what have they been doing all day? Slapping spades, brewing up ramen, you know what I mean? Writing letters home, you know what I mean? Typical private shit. You know what I mean? And then the next thing you know, one of them's like, hey dude, holy shit, look what's coming. And I mean, they're gonna roll them up like a wet napkin.

• 1:03:20JD Baker?

  And if you go there even today, so if you follow that entire flank march of what Jackson does, you're gonna come in right before you get to the Wilderness Baptist Church, which still stands there today. You get up there to this large open field and in the placard, that placard, it says the Flying Dutchman.

• 1:03:40JD Baker?

  And they're talking about Howard. Uh, and it's the flying, they're the surprise of this, you know what I mean? So it's, it's on and it's Jackson and they're, they're on that extreme right flank. And these guys are not prepared. So what do they do? They run and they just, they get their stuff. And of course, what, what's that do for like the guys with Jackson? And they see him running. It's like giddy up buddy. You know what I mean? Like these guys are on it. It's like unleashing the wolves, man. And they're just rolling them up. And then you could imagine all the other core and the other divisions of like, if you, they're, they're seeing dudes running at them and they don't know why they're running. They're already getting scared.

• 1:04:26JD Baker?

  Like, you know, if I just got up from the table, I just start running and we run through the gym downstairs. People were like, why the hell are JD and Jocko running?

• 1:04:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:33JD Baker?

  Even though they don't know what's going on, some of them are going to start running.

• 1:04:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Just, you know, that, that panic, uh, I know it's, I, I've talked about this in world war one. They had to try and like get their couriers to not run. Because if a guy on the front line got up to run a message back, someone see him run and be like, oh, that's what, I'm out. And then that's two people and that's three and that's a hundred. And then, then you lose.

• 1:04:58JD Baker?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:58Jocko Willink?

  So that's what's happening here. Only they're running for a good reason. They're running because they're getting their asses kicked. They're not ready for it. They start running. You get a general panic going.

• 1:05:08JD Baker?

  Right. I mean, there's a difference like me going for a run in the morning. I'm just running. These dudes are running for their lives. There's a difference. You know what I mean? And yeah, so panic has hidden. It, it, it's hit, uh, with, with Howard's core and it's having a huge effect all the way down. And of course, you know, the other side, the extreme left, like they don't know what's going on. But you know who's like, I'm, I'm sure like is super excited. Is Robert E. Lee sitting back over there at Cracker Box of like, "Man, that son of a bitch did it, man." Like, wow. I mean, it's gotta be like, wow, of what he has accomplished, of what that, uh, this, this, of what transpired, uh, between those two commanders. And you know

• 1:05:53JD Baker?

  what I mean? And, and all the efforts of all the way down to the guide of the, you know, the young boy that's gonna lead them through and all the way out and around and moving that many people. And just by sheer luck of like, they got seen. And just because of like, what is wrong with the Army of the Potomac's officers, man? Like, you got privates and shit saying, "Hey, sir, I, I, they, I see a bunch of guys moving on the road out there." And you start reporting it up and they're like, "Man, you're not seeing anything, man. Go back out there and sit back down." And what do they do when they get back out there? Like, you gotta be shitting me, dude. Well, I mean, they actually do come out and even some of the other officers see this. And as they report it up, they're just like, "Hey, man, that, that's nothing. Nobody's gonna go all the way out. Those roads don't, I mean, what, why are they not doing anything?" That's

• 1:06:37JD Baker?

  what always just kinda really just amazes me of like, why don't they believe these guys? You know what I mean? Is it that much ego going on, man? That it's the housewives of the Army of the Potomac? Like, literally going on out there? Like, why do they not get along and like, listen to each other? They could've stopped that entire thing. They could've cut Jackson right there. They had every opportunity. Dude, it wasn't like they got away and they weren't seen. They were seen. It's documented that they were seen. And nobody did anything about it. That just is, is crazy to me. But they get around and they're doing this. And then Robert E. Lee and those folks, so he's got his two divisions there. So of course, we're

• 1:07:19JD Baker?

  gonna join in. You know what I mean? Cause now, what's that gonna cause Hooker to do? He's gonna start focusing everything over there on this extreme exposed right flank. The officers are gonna start trying to slow down people running for their lives. And half of them don't even speak English. So you can yell at them like, all day long. They got no shits given. They're just running back to where they came from. And now you've got these folks that are now over on the, you know, that three quarters of a mile where they're gonna start opening up. You know what I mean? Which is gonna end up collapsing back their defensive position. It's a total shock and awe of what happens. But now-

• 1:07:57Jocko Willink?

  The, the heat tab, it's, it's, it's getting dark.

• 1:08:00JD Baker?

  Luckily, luckily.

• 1:08:02Jocko Willink?

  For the union, it took them a while to get there and, and they're gonna, it's gonna get dark. It starts getting dark.

• 1:08:07JD Baker?

  It starts getting dark, uh, and, and the folks or something, you gotta look at it, man. For, for the, you know, for Jackson's core and the folks that, that he took around there, man. That's, that's a 14 mile movement and then you're into a gunfight and it's a run and fight. So these guys, I mean, I'm at their adrenaline stuff and then they all slow down, uh, and they get, uh, I mean, man, like looking at how close they are to Hooker's headquarters there. If you go there today, uh, I mean, you are less than a mile from, from Hooker's headquarters. Less than a mile.

• 1:08:41Jocko Willink?

  So Jackson's crew made it less than a mile from where Hooker had his headquarters set up. And then, and then that's where he kinda like pauses, like hits a hold.

• 1:08:53JD Baker?

  Yeah, it's a hold. So he, so he holds right there, but Jackson still wants to kinda get it up.

• 1:08:59Jocko Willink?

  Jackson knows he, look, he, he brought his guys 14 miles. They kicked their ass there, but it's getting dark. He's like, we've done a great job and, and let's face it, after you've done 14 miles and you've kicked a bunch of ass, you're gonna need to do a little bit of a reorg. You gotta get your shit together a little bit, get a head count, get an ammo can, get some, like all that stuff's gotta go down. Jackson recognizes that. So he's like, all right, so hold what you got right here. Do a little reorg, but, but Jackson also is like, I'm not done yet.

• 1:09:26JD Baker?

  Oh yeah, he's not done.

• 1:09:28Jocko Willink?

  So he, he wants to find out where to go next, what the next move is gonna be. And he decides to get some reconnaissance going, but because it's Jackson, he doesn't say, hey, private schmuckatelli, you know, you grab a crew, go out, tell me what you see. He says, no, I'm going out to look.

• 1:09:42JD Baker?

  Yep.

• 1:09:43Jocko Willink?

  So he personally goes on reconnaissance.

• 1:09:47JD Baker?

  Yeah, so he's gonna, you know, everybody else from the commanders all the way down, you know, with his division commanders, regimental commanders, they're doing the ammo casualty. Their wagons are showing up, they're giving a recon, because I'm sure that like, you know, if you're a private with Jackson, they got no ammo, you know what I mean? They're just unloading ammo, so you know what I mean? So, yeah, they just, and Jackson's like, alright, while you guys are reloading the cartridge boxes and stuff, you know what I mean? I'm gonna go do a leader's recon. So he takes him and some of his staff, and instead of, I mean, he's got cavalry, I mean, you know, Stewart's there, for Christ's sake, you know what I mean? Like, send somebody else out, you know what I mean? But that's not Jackson. So Jackson, you know, it's dark, he's gonna start heading out, everybody's back, because

• 1:10:32JD Baker?

  he's like, I'm gonna go out, man, do this little reconnaissance, I'm gonna come back, and we're gonna giddy up, and we're gonna get after it. Like, we're not waiting for like tomorrow morning, like, if they're on the run, let's get them now. And Jackson goes out, and of course, you know how you kinda like, even though it's dark and it's like on a road, you kinda like silhouette yourself like a little bit, you know what I mean? So of course, now you got these Union guys that are over there, and they see these folks out there on the road, well, they know it's like, okay, we're gonna shoot at them. We don't know who it is, but we know that they're not with us, so let's shoot at them. So they're gonna start taking some shots, and then-

• 1:11:09Jocko Willink?

  So Jackson, in his recon element, as they're kinda moving down Plank Road, trying to get an assessment, of course, Union dudes see him, and are like, oh, who are those? Those are bad guys. They start shooting at Jackson and his little recon element.

• 1:11:25JD Baker?

  Yep, and they're gonna break in, so they're gonna break, you know, like north, you know, like north into the woods, so they're heading east, they're gonna break into the wood line. And when they get into that wood line, now that they're getting resistance, because that's, it's almost like as if like, once they get shot at, now he can see where their lines are, you know what I mean? So he's gonna break into the woods, and then he's gonna start making his way back west.

• 1:11:50Jocko Willink?

  He basically got his information, once he's getting shot at, he's like, cool, now I know where you're at.

• 1:11:55JD Baker?

  Yep.

• 1:11:56Jocko Willink?

  I know we're gonna start meeting resistance, I'm outta here. He breaks to the north, but he's got his intel, or at least he knows he shouldn't go out, try and get any closer, starts heading back to friendly lines.

• 1:12:06JD Baker?

  Yep. And the mistake that he made when he left friendly lines, they didn't alert-

• 1:12:17JD Baker?

  To let his folks know. So not, not everybody, not now, of course, except for like the folks that are like right there with him. They can see like, oh, hey, there goes Jackson and them. But the like, the folks that are down like 150 yards from them, they, they got no, they got no clue. And, and it ends up being it's a, it's a North Carolina regiment. And they're just down and it's nothing against the North Carolina. So Jackson breaks into the woods. He's, he's making his way back. You know what I mean? He breaks north, gets into the wood line. He's like, yeah, hey, man, let's get back into friendly lines. I, I've got my information that I need. We're getting kind of shot at. Let's move back. And as they're moving back through the wood line, you've got the same thing that we just talked about with the union. These guys from North Carolina, they see movement to their front and they just did

• 1:13:02JD Baker?

  this flank attack and they know that there's nobody in front of them other, they are the tip of the spear. So anybody that's out there moving, they're going to shoot at them. We just did an ammo casualty. They got more ammo. You see movement. They think it's maybe them doing a reconnaissance against them. So they start shooting.

• 1:13:23JD Baker?

  And they end up hitting Jackson.

• 1:13:27Jocko Willink?

  So he gets hit in the arm.

• 1:13:29JD Baker?

  Yep.

• 1:13:29Jocko Willink?

  Bad.

• 1:13:30JD Baker?

  Bad.

• 1:13:30Jocko Willink?

  Like not, not a, not a little, not a little wound, but a big wound. Like he's going to need amputation.

• 1:13:34JD Baker?

  Yes.

• 1:13:36Jocko Willink?

  Um, and he's going to need to get casavacked.

• 1:13:39JD Baker?

  Yep.

• 1:13:40Jocko Willink?

  Um, so they start, they start initiating that, right? They start initiating and casualty evacuation. I mean, casual casualty evacuation in 2020 is not fun. You know, you're getting thrown into a Humvee, you're getting thrown into a helicopter, whatever, and you're going to be at an aid station in seven minutes. Right? He's going to get tossed into, you know, a wagon, dragged down the road for however many hours. He's got 20 miles he's got to go before he gets to a rail station where he's going to be there sitting and waiting. I mean, this is not an effective, efficient casualty evacuation scenario like we have today.

• 1:14:21JD Baker?

  Right. And it's a, yeah, that 20 mile, like they still, the Fredericksburg area running club back that we do what's called every year, the Jackson ambulance route. And it's a 20 mile run. So you're basically going from, from right over there off the, off the, off the plank road, you're going to take Brock Road and you're going to go all the way down to Guinea Station, which is down, Guinea Station is right on off of the, the Telegraph Road. Now there's I-95 is there, you know what I mean? And there's actually a marker. So if you, you know what I mean? So he's, they're trying to get him to Guinea Station in the back of an ambulance and Brock Road is a two lane country road still to this day.

• 1:15:03JD Baker?

  So yeah, like you're right, like this is not a, a quick, fast medevac. It's going to be painful. He's going to be riding it. He's got his arm amputated. I mean, you know, there, and he's making his way to Guinea Station to try to get on a train to get him back to Richmond to a hospital.

• 1:15:18Jocko Willink?

  And he, obviously he's immediately out of fight, but he, he's going to die. He dies. It takes several days. He gets like some complications of pneumonia and he's going to die. And all the, the doctors, there's an account, the doctor that kind of was with him in his final hours, he, the guy named Dr. McGuire and Dr. McGuire said, "A few moments, a few moments before he died, he cried out in his delirium, 'Order A.P. Hill to prepare for action. Pass the infantry to the front rapidly. Tell Major Hawks...'

• 1:16:03Jocko Willink?

  Then stopped, leaving the sentence unfinished. Presently a smile of ineffable sweetness spread itself all over his pale face and he said quietly and with an expression as if of relief, 'Let us cross over the river and rest under the shade of the trees.'"

• 1:16:31Jocko Willink?

  That's some poetic words to be saying when you're on your deathbed. I don't know if McGuire, you know, kind of doctored that up a little bit. But I hope to have some sort of, you know, intelligent and poetic thing to say when I'm on my deathbed. I think I'm probably saying something more like, ah shit, you know, like that's. But if you're gonna say something, you know, let us cross the river and rest under the shade of trees. What a beautiful statement.

• 1:16:59Jocko Willink?

  But he's dead, right? Um, he's out of the fight. AP Hill takes command.

• 1:17:03JD Baker?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:03Jocko Willink?

  Once he's off the battlefield. He goes down wounded.

• 1:17:07JD Baker?

  Yep.

• 1:17:08Jocko Willink?

  AP Hill, he's medevac'd out, and then Jeb Stewart takes command. And which is, what's interesting about this is just like, like their succession plan, which we talk a lot about in the military, we talk about with civilian companies as well. Like you gotta have a succession plan. Someone goes down, boss goes down, huh? Jocko goes down, cool. JD's got it. JD, JD goes down, Echo's guy. Like, we know what we're doing. And that's how they're kind of set up. And Jeb Stewart, what's up with that? What's up with a sash? How's that go?

• 1:17:38JD Baker?

  Well, you know, like you've got the, the color, he's got it, the, so the color of the cavalry is, is yellow. Uh, you, when you look around and, and even still to this day, like if you look at different, uh, patches, you know, we had that whole patches conversation. You know what I mean? If it's like a red patch, you know what I mean? It's infantry. Uh, well, of course, I don't know why they picked yellow for the cavalry, because that didn't go over well between the relationship between infantry and cavalry guys, because they're like, yeah, that yellow stripe on your leg should be going down your back, because you're yellow. You know what I mean? It's the same, you know, same stuff goes on, uh, it's still to this day. But, you know, so you got Jeb Stewart that's a cavalry commander, and, and AP Hill goes down.

• 1:18:21JD Baker?

  You know, he's a division commander underneath, uh, underneath Jackson and, you know, so he goes down and then Jeb Stewart is a cavalry commander. He's going to take off the yellow sash. He's going to take command of an infantry corps, which is pretty cool, man, of, of like Jeb Stewart, but then he's going to get rid of his colors. He's going to take on the colors of the infantry. And now he's an infantry commander, which is, that's, that's pretty cool, man. When you're kind of talking about like what Jeb Stewart does, because everybody always thinks like Jeb Stewart, this flamboyant cavalier guy, you know what I mean? He's too cool for school kind of guy. You know what I mean? Rides around the army twice. You know, everybody's always got like some bad shit to say about Jeb Stewart. You know what I mean? It's just because they're jealous, man.

• 1:19:06JD Baker?

  The dude looks good. He's got good hair. You know what I mean? He's a hell of a guy on a horseback. You know what I mean? And he does his job and, and Robert E. Lee loves him. I mean, loves Jeb Stewart. So there's always that jealousy as well. Why does Robert E. Lee like that guy so much? You know, you know what I mean? And it's just like, really dude, get over it, brother. You know what I mean? Like Jeb Stewart's doing his job and he, and he's good at it. I mean, because, you know, at that time, I mean, the, the Southern cavalry is leaps and bounds better than the North. Uh, you know what I mean? Uh, just to feel they had now, you know, they, the North does get better, uh, but not now. So Jeb Stewart takes over, uh, and, and now he is, he's running the infantry corps.

• 1:19:47Jocko Willink?

  But that's succession. Like we saw that rapid succession plan. Everyone's stepping up. What, something happens to Hooker too, and there's kind of a moment where you recognize it might not be so squared away for the Union.

• 1:19:58JD Baker?

  Uh, yeah, it's just like, uh, you know, you talked about like, you know, with, with companies and with units, everybody always talks about, uh, like obviously on the army, the Potomac, like nobody's really like sat down and had this discussion. And even though there is a set chain of command, like everybody knows like who's supposed to be next, right? So Hooker, you know what I mean? So like I said, like after this, they have to collapse back their lines, but he's still going to keep his headquarters in the banging house right there at the Chancerville house, right? So he's right there at the corner. And if you look out in a, in a, in a south westerly direction, it's over towards what

• 1:20:39JD Baker?

  is called Hazel Grove. So there's this Grove that cuts through out there. And, and Hazel Grove, you can line it up with artillery, which, you know, like with Robert E. Lee and these guys, they're at this time, it's, it's, it's 63. They're getting pretty good. And so these guys are within range and Hooker is of course, standing out on the front porch and he's leaning up against one of the stanchions. And then bam, I mean artillery shell hits the stanchion that Hooker is leaning up against and just knocks his ass the hell out. Doesn't

• 1:21:20JD Baker?

  kill him, but he's got a concussion dude. He's knocked out and he's laying there on the ground. You know what I mean? And of course, everybody's like looking at like, holy shit. Like Hooker's got hit. So of course, everybody, yeah, typical. He goes down. They, they run over and they're all looking at him and, but they're, you know, they're checking Paul, he's alive. He's good. He just got knocked the hell out. And then you got everybody kind of standing around going, well, so who, who wants to take over this shit show? And so I, you know, and I, you know, I'm always imagining like me being there, just like with me, I always try to imagine like what I would be doing there. You know what I mean? I can imagine I'm like, you know, like, like, hey, hey, wake up, like, wake up. But you

• 1:22:05JD Baker?

  know what I mean? Cause dude, you're riding this rodeo all the way out, brother. You know what I mean? Nobody wants to take the reins of this one. You know what I mean? Cause like you look at it on the Confederate side, Jackson goes down, Medevac out. Moments later, AP Hill, he's in Command, he goes down Jeb Stewart's taking off his sash and he's taking command like everybody there's probably other dudes behind Stewart going, hey dude, I'm next, brother. Like, I want to be in the book. You know what I mean? I want to be a part of this operation because this shit's going down in history, which it did. Now, on the other side, everybody's like, I don't want to even be mentioned in the AAR after this shit. So, yeah, he goes down and there, nobody wants to take over this.

• 1:22:48Jocko Willink?

  And that's because at this juncture, the Union is full retrograde retreat mode, trying to piece it together, trying to get back across the Fords, trying to get back, they're trying, they're trying to get away.

• 1:23:00JD Baker?

  Yeah, because like even, you know, even before that, so you know, you still got guys that are down there in Fredericksburg, right? You know what I mean? On both sides. So a- after this whole kind of event goes on, they're like, dude, how, how are we gonna like? How can we like deal with this? You know what I mean? How can we save ourselves? So they're going to try to send a note back to Sedwick and some of those guys are like, hey dude, crossover, come up the plank road and now you could get in and behind Robert E. Lee. Okay, that's, that sounds pretty cool. Sounds like it'll work.

• 1:23:32Jocko Willink?

  Sedwick is the guy that's down, he's the Union guy, he's got, he's still got like 40,000 troops down there. Yeah. You know, north of the Rappahannock and he's, he could go across the Rappahannock and go into Fredericksburg and start to move towards, it would be actually moving towards Lee's rear.

• 1:23:54JD Baker?

  Yeah, he was.

• 1:23:54Jocko Willink?

  So it's a viable option.

• 1:23:56JD Baker?

  Yeah, totally viable. Uh, you know, so he could get in and behind. So that, that's what they're going to try to do to kind of like, like to save this whole aspect. Uh, but the problem is, is you know, Lee's got folks back there as well. You know what I mean? He's got early, he's got 10,000 folks. And, and okay, yeah, the whole rule of setting the fires and stuff like that, they don't have enough resistance, 40,000 against 10,000. You know what I mean? So they're going to be able to cross over, but then, you know what I mean?

• 1:24:28JD Baker?

  Robert E. Lee and Jackson's Corps kinda have these folks all bunched in in and around the Ely's Ford Road, you know what I mean? And yeah, his rear is exposed and it's basically, it's like McClellan Anderson, those two division guys that they borrowed from Long Street. It's their rear end of kinda what they're looking at, but that also allows, so he's gonna be able to get across into Fredericksburg, talking about Sedwick and the Union, they're gonna be able to get across and then they're gonna be able to start making their way up the Plank Road, moving from east to west, literally coming in right behind Robert E. Lee, right? So what do you think Early does? As soon as these guys start coming across,

• 1:25:09JD Baker?

  he's gonna send a note to the boss. And he's like, hey, sir, we can't hold them and they're coming across, they're in Fredericksburg and they're moving towards your position now. So Robert E. Lee gotta call an audible. What does he do? He takes the guys that didn't go on the flank march and he's gonna send them down west to east. So here we go, like the first day of Chancellorsville, it's happening again. It ends up happening and they collide right there of what is now Salem Church. So it's the Salem Church Road. They get down there and, and he's got his folks come down there, blocking position, it's game on and they stop this whole northern rescue operation of getting in behind. So now Hooker's done training. Like that thought, he's done.

• 1:25:53Jocko Willink?

  And Sedwick, I mean, they get, they get blocked by the Confederates and the Confederates start pushing them back, back to the river. And actually, we get to hear from Elijah Rhodes. Elijah Rhodes was one of the guys pushing across the river with Sedwick. So this is from Elijah Wood, um, sorry, Elijah, Elijah Hunt Rhodes, all for the Union. Here's what he has to say. He says, "The next we knew, the rebels came in sight and Colonel Rogers was ordered to the front with a second Rhode Island. We advanced across a field to the brow of a hill and opened fire. Here our men began to fall and the rebels still advanced.

• 1:26:33Jocko Willink?

  Forward is the word again. And with a yell, we rushed on to the rebel lines, which broke and fled into the woods." Men were falling here and there, but close up and forward was the command, and we kept on, cheered by the thought that we were doing good service while our corps could reform in our rear. We entered the woods, but were stopped by severe fire. Here we fought for an hour. As I commanded the color company, I had the center of the regiment and a good chance to observe our Colonel. If the line wavered, Colonel Rogers would seize the colors and lead us on.

• 1:27:12Jocko Willink?

  The Rebels had as prisoners a regiment of New Jersey troops with their colors. We succeeded in releasing the troops and recapturing the colors. After the firing ceased, we returned to the hill in our rear and reformed our lines. My Company B took into the battle thirty-three men. And we lost eleven killed and wounded. The regiment lost seven killed and sixty-eight wounded, beside nine missing. Company B lost three of the killed. The regiment received many compliments from General Newton and General Wheaton, and it seemed to be agreed that our last charge broke the Rebel advance and perhaps saved the corps from disaster.

• 1:27:57Jocko Willink?

  Captain William G. Turner and Lieutenant Clark E. Bates were among the wounded.

• 1:28:04Jocko Willink?

  Monday, May, uh, 4th. Artillery firing all day, the Rebels have taken possession of Fredericksburg in our rear, and we are cut off from the river, but we have confidence, General Cedric, and shall get out of the scrape somehow. Heavy fighting is going on up the river where Hooker is trying to break through, but we do not know the result. It looks bad, and we feel blue. And then the next day, firing still going on, and it seems to be all around us. Our wounded have been captured in Fredericksburg, and nothing but good generalship can save the dear old Sixth Corps.

• 1:28:42Jocko Willink?

  At dark, we left our lines and marching in the mud uphill and down, we reached the Rappahannock River sometime in the night. Pontoon bridges were laid and troops passed over. Strawned earth was packed upon the bridges to deaden the sound of the wagons and artillery. Our regiment was left to guard the rear and finally we crossed with the rebels dropping shell onto the bridge in our rear. The connections on the other side of the bridge were cut and the boats floated to the north side. As soon as we reached the opposite bank, the men threw themselves upon the ground and slept.

• 1:29:23Jocko Willink?

  It's crazy to think about like each one of those little events that he says in two sentences can be an entire book. Like, "We fought in the woods for an hour under severe fire." Like, you know, that could be a whole book. An hour of close combat with the enemy and he's rattling off in one, two sentences. Yeah. Uh, but that's, that's how it ends up. These guys, they get across the river, they take in massive casualties, um, and, and the battle's over pretty much at this point. With another Confederate victory. Uh, huge cost for the Union. 1,606 killed, 9,762 wounded,

• 1:30:04Jocko Willink?

  6,919 captured and missing. For the Confederates, 1,665 killed, 9,081 wounded, 2,018 captured or missing. Obviously, Jackson's dead. Um, and Lee, upon losing Stonewall Jackson, he's quoted as saying it was like losing his right arm. Yeah, so, uh, you know, another easy, like, a cool story of like, of Robert E. Lee. So after this battle's over, right there on the plank road, they've got those, you know, you're just talking about the losses. So they got these prisoners and they, they, you know,

• 1:30:47Jocko Willink?

  they've taken away their weapons and all that stuff and they're, they're Union prisoners, uh, enlisted and they're, they're like in the ditch on the side of the road.

• 1:30:56JD Baker?

  And Robert E. Lee is making his way down the plank road. And it's, it's, it's captured, you know what I mean? And, and, and history of where these Union prisoners, the enlisted guys see Robert E. Lee coming, like, you know, he's coming right down the road after the battle. And these dudes are like, holy shit, man, that's Robert E. Lee. You know, because they stand and salute Robert E. Lee as he passes them. I mean, so, I mean, he's pulling huge respect. Uh, you know, and this goes all the way back to the beginning of the podcast. We kind of talked about the privates of how they felt in the Union.

• 1:31:38JD Baker?

  Like, we'll take an old broke down mule for, you know, we'll trade you that for Burnside. You know what I mean? Like, they're looking at this guy, man, Robert E. Lee. I mean, yeah, this is a huge Confederate victory that just took place. And I, I just always imagine, because, you know, I've, I've been there, right there on the side of the road, and I'm just like, I couldn't imagine being a prisoner of war and I'm gonna salute my adversary. You know what I mean? Like, that ain't happening.

• 1:32:04Jocko Willink?

  Voluntarily, yeah.

• 1:32:06JD Baker?

  Yeah, like, dude, you might get the morning bird from JD, but you're not getting me to, like, stand up and salute, you know what I mean? But, and that's just one of the things of, you know, with, like, Robert E. Lee, but now Jackson's, Jackson's out and it's, you know, I mean, that's a bold statement to talk about one of your core commanders. It's like losing your right arm. He was right arm dominant, you know what I mean? So, that's his dominant core commander. He just lost Robert E. Lee when he, or, you know, losing Stonewall Jackson when he found that out. So, I just, I wanted to share that about with, you know, the, the relationship between those two guys.

• 1:32:38Jocko Willink?

  And, and just while we're on the subject of prisoners of war, the, being a prisoner of war in the Civil War was, uh...

• 1:32:48Jocko Willink?

  You know, I mean, it's, it's, it's a fate that is, could very likely mean death. It means starvation. Like it is a nightmare being a POW in the Civil War.

• 1:32:58JD Baker?

  Yeah, they, they, they segregate, you know, enlisted guys and the officers, it's segregated camps. And probably the, there's like a, like a B rated movie. It's called Andersonville. And it's a, it's a Confederate prisoner of war camp. It's in Andersonville, Georgia. And if you're ever down there, man, it's actually the National Museum of Prisoner of War in the United States is in Andersonville, Georgia. Not a lot of people know that. I mean, and it is a phenomenal museum and it's all prisoners war since, since we've been a country. It's a great museum that's down there and it's right there on the grounds of where this Andersonville enlisted prison, an open air prison, man.

• 1:33:42JD Baker?

  I mean, what these guys, yeah, I don't want to like, there's books on this on Andersonville. And it's not to say that, that, you know, the Confederates were doing any worse than what was happening up on the Union side. I'm not here to debate that. But dude, Andersonville, man, is like, it's wow. I mean, it is unbelievable. And they've got the replica of like what it would have been like being a private and the gate. You know what I mean? It's like these huge, like if I was going to describe it, like you've seen like King Kong. You know what I mean? They had those big, big wooden gates that like kept Kong in. That's kind of like what it's like, man, coming into, to Andersonville. I mean, it's just horrific. I mean, thousands of Union soldiers died in that camp.

• 1:34:27JD Baker?

  One little string. I mean, it's depressing. I mean, it is literally, I mean, it just, it crushes you. So, yeah.

• 1:34:33Jocko Willink?

  What were you saying? One little, you were like one little?

• 1:34:35JD Baker?

  One little trickle stream is like bathing, like, I mean, the dysentery, the, it's open air. There's no, I mean, like you got nothing. This is Georgia, man. I couldn't imagine being in Georgia, summertime heat, just bacon. And, you know, they've got, they've got a deadline where it's like a two by four that runs off the wall of like, you don't cross the deadline. Like you cross this, and like the, I mean, there's accounts of, of like the, the, the young kids that are. Pulling guard duty there, you know what I mean? Cause most everybody else is up fighting. So they're, they got young folks that are there and these folks are starving and they would like

• 1:35:17JD Baker?

  drop bread on the other side of the, of the, the, the deadline of where they're not allowed to cross. And, you know, and they got, you know, you got dudes that are starving, man. And they're like, dude, you gotta be kidding me, man. Can I just jump across the line real quick and, and grab it? And they're like, yeah, man, go ahead. You can, you can get it. As soon as they cross the line, man, shooting them. I mean, it was just, it is Andersonville, man. It'll, it, it is, uh, it's unimaginable. Um, like when I was at the Naval Academy and we talked about that, you know, we take Naval Academy, midshipmen, everybody goes, you know, DC, the Holocaust, horrific events that took place. They should put them on a bus, man, and take those midshipmen down to Andersonville. Uh, I mean, cause it, you know, I mean, it is, it is that level. It is Holocaust level.

• 1:36:02JD Baker?

  Uh, and this is my opinion, but yeah, it's a, uh, and visit the National Prisoner of War Museum, uh, for the United States. But yeah, you're, you're spot on, man. It is not, it's not gonna look good.

• 1:36:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So you get that, you get that respect of standing up and saluting, uh, General Lee, but that, that respect isn't gonna maintain much further off the battlefield. And, well, like we said, Jackson's dead, thousands, uh, killed in this battle and there's gonna be much more loss, cause the war was far from over at this time. And we will continue with that on the next Civil War excursion. And if you want to support this podcast, go to jocko store.com, jocko fuel.com, originusa.com, echelonfront.com and v o m n a.com. And until next time, this is JD and Jocko out.