566: Leading Through Chaos. Lessons From the Battle of Ramadi with The 1st of The 506th Band Of Brother. With General Ron Clark

>Join Jocko Underground Full Episodes< https://app.redcircle.com/shows/64a89f88-a245-4098-8d8d-496325ec4f74/exclusive-content General Ron Clark shares his journey from growing up in an Army family to commanding troops during the brutal Battle of Ramadi. He discusses leadership, discipline, combat, sacrifice, and the responsibility of command. Through firsthand stories and hard-earned lessons, General Clark reveals what it takes to build strong teams, make difficult decisions, and lead under extreme pressure. 00:00:00 — Introduction: General Ron Clark 00:03:33 — Growing Up in the Army 00:11:24 — West Point and the Making of an Officer 00:29:03 — Ranger School and Early Leadership Lessons 00:46:39 — Company Command: Building Discipline and Trust 01:07:44 — September 11th and the Road to War 01:17:00 — Preparing Soldiers for Combat in Iraq 01:29:00 — The Battle of Ramadi: Leading Under Fire 02:15:00 — Combat Losses, Sacrifice, and the Burden of Command 02:55:00 — Leadership at the Highest Levels and U. S. Army Pacific Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 566 with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo.

• 0:05Speaker 01

  Good evening.

• 0:07Jocko Willink?

  Terrorist infested Ramadi in the wild west of Iraq is for US troops, the meanest place in the country. There is no better place to observe American troops and the fledgling Iraqi army in combat. They packed me off to Camp Corregidor in eastern Ramadi with the first battalion, 506th Infantry Regiment, 101st Airborne Division. The 506th official motto is "Kurahy," Cherokee for "stands alone," but they're better known as "The Band of Brothers."

• 0:38Jocko Willink?

  "The sheer scale of violence in Ramadi is astounding," wrote AP's Todd Pittman after spending time with several units there. "One recent coalition tally of significant acts, roadside bombs, attacks, exchanges of fire, indicated that out of 43 significant acts reported in Iraq on a single day, 27 of those occurred in Ramadi and its vicinity," he wrote in a dispatch. "As soon as we pulled into Corregidor, I opened the door of my Humvee, I heard the rattle of machine gun fire. An extremely affable battalion commander, Lieutenant Colonel Ron Clark, welcomed us. He told us that if we were looking for action, we'd find it.

• 1:23Jocko Willink?

  Although firefights and other hostile action are routine, IEDs are the worst problem," he said. "IEDs were responsible for five of the six deaths his men have suffered since deploying in January. As of mid-May, the troops at Corregidor had suffered 380 attacks from IEDs while finding and destroying 667 more. One day, Clark's men found and dispatched 18 IEDs in a stretch of road that couldn't be seen from the observation posts," he told us. "The next day, they returned, and there were 18 more."

• 2:04Jocko Willink?

  And those are some quotes from an article from the Washington Examiner from June 19th, 2006, written by Michael Fumento, that details some of the heroic work that was being done by the first of the 506 Band of Brothers in eastern Ramadi, Iraq, led by then Colonel Colonel Ron Clark, also known as Task Force Red Kurahy. And the task force was made up of soldiers from the first of the 506 and a bunch of other army units that were attached. He had Anglico Marines, sailors from a CB Battalion, and SEALs from my crew in Task Unit Bruiser. And the Colonel, now General Clark, led that task force with impeccable professionalism,

• 2:49Jocko Willink?

  tenacity, courage, and care. And he united this disparate group into a powerful cohesive team, a true Band of Brothers, that performed valiantly during some of the hardest sustained urban combat in the Iraq War. "He was, without question, one of the finest officers I ever witnessed or had the privilege of serving with. And reflective of that, it is no surprise that he has commanded at every level, from rifle platoon leader to company battalion brigade division, to his current billet as the commander of US Army Pacific. And it is an honor to have him with us here tonight to share some of his experiences and lessons learned.

• 3:34Jocko Willink?

  General Ron Clark, commander of US Army Pacific."

• 3:39Speaker 01

  Jocko, thank you.

• 3:40Jocko Willink?

  Thanks for joining us, sir.

• 3:41Speaker 01

  It's good to be here.

• 3:43Jocko Willink?

  It's outstanding to see you.

• 3:44Speaker 01

  Good to see you again, my friend.

• 3:46Jocko Willink?

  Let's get it, let's jump into just kind of how this all got started. I forget the number, but between you and your dad, first of all, you've never not been a part of the US Army.

• 3:55Speaker 01

  60 years.

• 3:58Jocko Willink?

  So you're a dependent coming out of the womb?

• 4:00Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 4:00Jocko Willink?

  And then you went in while your dad was still active duty?

• 4:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, we served in the Army together for four years. That, that was nuts. Yeah, it was much better for him than me.

• 4:12Jocko Willink?

  And so your dad was an NCO? He was an enlisted guy?

• 4:15Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 4:15Jocko Willink?

  And what was his, what was his job? What did he do in the Army?

• 4:17Speaker 01

  He was a, he was a cook?

• 4:19Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 4:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, he was a, he's a 92 Gulf, which is a food service specialist.

• 4:25Jocko Willink?

  Get some.

• 4:26Speaker 01

  And took it as serious as death, man. He, he would, I'd joke all the time about how hard it was for my wife to initially understand the situation she had married herself into, despite her having known me since I was 11 years old. So first time my parents come to visit, my dad goes to the refrigerator and starts asking hard questions like, "Hey, what's in that foil? What's the ambient temperature of this refrigerator?

• 4:57Speaker 01

  Baking soda? How long's that been in here?" And she's looking at me like, "What is happening right now?" I go, "My man's at work.

• 5:05Speaker 01

  Let him cook."

• 5:08Speaker 01

  "What do I do now?" "Nothing.

• 5:11Speaker 01

  Just let him have it."

• 5:12Jocko Willink?

  There you go.

• 5:13Speaker 01

  It'll be fine.

• 5:13Jocko Willink?

  There's, it makes such a huge impact, you know, being on, I did three deployments on Navy ships as, in SEAL platoons. And the difference, when you have a good, a good galley where they're serving good food, it's night and day.

• 5:28Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 5:29Jocko Willink?

  And it all comes down to the personalities of the people that are doing it. Because if, if the people are giving the extra effort, you're gonna have good food. If they're not, it ain't happening.

• 5:37Speaker 01

  And morale.

• 5:38Jocko Willink?

  Oh, directly connected to the bellies.

• 5:40Speaker 01

  No doubt. No doubt.

• 5:43Jocko Willink?

  And then what about your mom? Your mom was a teacher?

• 5:45Speaker 01

  She was a schoolteacher and then a principal and then an administrator in our hometown.

• 5:48Jocko Willink?

  Okay. And so you moving around a bunch while you're, while you're growing up?

• 5:52Speaker 01

  We did. We lived in, started out, born at Fort Meade, Maryland, Kimbrough Army Hospital. It was an awesome day for my parents. From there to Fort Dix, New Jersey, my dad deployed to Vietnam from there.

• 6:09Speaker 01

  Back, ended up at Fort Bliss, Texas, through early years of elementary school, from there to Germany. So we spent three years there and change, and then to Fort Polk, Louisiana, which is where I went through eighth grade through high school. My parents decided to settle down, put some roots down in the community, even though my father was still, you know, serving and would serve for another eight years. He, he decided at that point that, well, I guess another 12 years, he decided at that point that they were gonna buy a house and put some roots down and let my mom, you know, get through her process of gaining a little tenure in the system, and then they were gonna move back there eventually and retire.

• 6:48Jocko Willink?

  So you're going, you're going to high school there. What are you into when you're in high school?

• 6:52Speaker 01

  I was an athlete, a pretty good student. I was a baseball player.

• 6:55Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 6:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, so three-year varsity athlete, playing baseball, and then I was team captain as a senior. Good teams. They were good enough that it kept us from playing other sports. So all the kids that played baseball, for the most part, played baseball only, because it was a pretty good squad. That, plus junior ROTC in high school.

• 7:15Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 7:16Speaker 01

  So, you know, came home, first day freshman year with a uniform. My dad was like, "What are you doing?" It's like, "I'm joining ROTC." I mean, it's, they brought some kids over to the junior high, you know, they were all jazzed up with a bunch of, you know, awards and bells and whistles and chords and whatnot. And I was like, "Man, I want some of that." And they talked about what they did. So I, I joined ROTC as a freshman without, you know, my parents' knowledge, which they were cool with it. Learned some citizenship, a little first aid, I mean, what can it hurt? So my freshman year, pretty good. I mean, my dad, you know, helped me learn how to shine my shoes and shine my brass and to get it all tight and, you know, press my uniforms and all that business.

• 7:58Speaker 01

  And, you know, at the end of the year, the ROTC program at this high school was so big, it was bigger than any of the graduating classes. So graduating class, about 200, 250, the ROTC program was like 300, 350. And so, I mean, they didn't take everybody, because it's kind of a, you know, it's a privilege to be able to stay around here, and they have to continue to grow the pyramid, right? So you can't have as many sophomores as you have freshmen, and you can't have as many juniors as you have sophomores, and the seniors are at the top of this pyramid, and you just can't have that many, because you don't have the many leadership positions. And so they would winnow down the program. And the guy who ran it was the guy who started it. He's a Lieutenant Colonel retired named Bob Freshley. Phenomenal.

• 8:40Speaker 01

  Sent 47 kids to service academies out of that program, over 150 kids to four-year ROTC scholarships. So they knew what they were doing. They were kind of cultivating this, you know, culture of excellence. So, you know, I go in for my interview at the end of my freshman year, and I ain't so sure that they're gonna let me stay, even though I've tried really hard to be, you know, excellent at all things. And they made me sweat a little bit, but I got to stay. They weren't so sure I had a career in uniform in me at the time.

• 9:11Jocko Willink?

  Were you thinking career in uniform?

• 9:12Speaker 01

  No. I was, at the time, I, I just, it was a good class, I wanted to do my best, you know, I knew I was making a difference, making my parents proud. I knew I was pretty good at it, even as a freshman. So sophomore year, squad leader, junior year, company commander, senior year, I'm the head cadet.

• 9:29Jocko Willink?

  Oh, nice.

• 9:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, so.

• 9:31Jocko Willink?

  At what point did you start thinking about your actual adult life career?

• 9:36Speaker 01

  Junior year.

• 9:39Speaker 01

  Went down to see a recruiter, again, without my parents' knowledge, walking around, yeah, "Hey, getting some swag, you know, because they're gonna give you some stuff that says be all you can be," and some posters and whatnot. And so it was all airborne and Ranger and Special Forces posters on the wall in my, my room. Kids wanted to grow up, be ballplayers and superheroes and whatnot, I wanted to be a soldier. So I had a great conversation with my dad. I'm like, "Hey, I got a plan."

• 10:04Speaker 01

  And he goes, "Hmm. You know, your mom and I have been saving up nickels and quarters since before you were born to send you to college." And I have a younger sister, so it's two of us. She's four years younger. He goes, "You're going to school." Like, "Well, you know, the Army's got a college fund." Like, "I got that, got that licked, you know, I got a plan to pay for college." Dad goes, "No, you're gonna be out there rocking and rolling in the Army, getting after it. You ain't gonna have time for that." And so, you know, my answer back is, "Yeah, I will." You know, looked at it, talked to the recruiter, he goes, "Hey, man, that dude's job is to get you in, you know, get you in a contract." He goes, "What do you even want to be?"

• 10:47Speaker 01

  I said, "11 Bravo, one Papa with Victor option." And he goes...

• 10:54Speaker 01

  Eleven Bravo paratrooper with an option to go to Ranger School in your initial contract. I go, oh, yeah. And he goes, oh, which Ranger battalion do you want to go to? And I was like, first. So he goes, you know, there's more than one, right? I said, yeah, but why would you want to go to second or third? That didn't make any sense. He goes, that's about how much thought you've given this. He goes, let's sit down. So we talked and then he set up an office call for me with his boss, who was the Brigade XO for Second Brigade, Fifth Infantry Division at Fort Polk. My dad was a Brigade Dime Personnel Manager. So I sit down with the Brigade XO, who's this, you know, larger than life, you know, amazing,

• 11:40Speaker 01

  you know, leader. He's got these huge hands and he's like telling me how he was a boxing instructor at West Point, but he's an ROTC graduate and how, you know, if I had the right stuff that I should try to become an officer.

• 11:55Speaker 01

  And I said, okay, I'll, I'll do that. It goes, that way you can meet your parents' requirement of going to college and your own requirement of paying for it yourself. Because I didn't want my folks to pay for me to go to college because, I mean, they worked hard, they're public servants. I mean, we didn't have a lot of money. So I didn't want to burden them with, you know, anything past me turning 18. So I applied to West Point. Based on that conversation, I get in early admission. So I only applied to two schools to college, West Point and the Air Force Academy. And so, and I got into both. So, you know, I didn't know how hard it was. And I'll just sign up because this, this major says to me, hey, you're the kid they're looking for.

• 12:37Speaker 01

  You know, you're a varsity athlete, you're president of your class, you're a company commander in ROTC, you're the guy that, that the admissions department is looking for. Yeah, sure, sure I am. Now, I'm not thinking, you know, it is hard to get in.

• 12:52Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 12:54Speaker 01

  I applied, got in, so no big deal. Another kid in my class also applied and got in. So there's two of us from, the, the two people from the high school that wanted to go to West Point, both got in, this can't be that hard.

• 13:06Jocko Willink?

  You're like 200% acceptance rate.

• 13:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. What are you guys concerned about? So, fast forward, I show up at West Point. I've never even visited, like never spent a day on campus. Like I never, I didn't even talk to anybody who'd been there before. It's, so I show up, you know, they, on reception day, I flew up to New York on my own. My mom put me on a plane, my dad was stationed in Germany at the time. So, put me on a plane, I arrive, my aunt picks me up, my mom's sister, she drops me off two days later on our day. And so we're sitting there in the bleachers and they're giving us a little briefing. And then, uh, the cadet says, you have 90 seconds to say farewell to your family and then get over here in line.

• 13:52Speaker 01

  And she goes, what is happening? And I go, I don't know.

• 13:56Speaker 01

  Better hug it out because we got like 90 seconds. Hug it out, go stand in line. And then, you know, I tell you, once the parents all leave and they march you off, they say there'll be no speaking or talking from this point forward.

• 14:11Speaker 01

  So we get on a bus to go down to start in processing. As soon as we sit down, I say to the kid sitting next to me, hey, I'm Ron from Louisiana. Where are you from? He goes, we ain't supposed to be talking right now.

• 14:26Speaker 01

  And it's, hey, stop talking back there, you heard what I said. And I go, okay, fine, yeah, whatever. I mean, the dude is 20 years old, he can't punch me in the face, they got rules, you know, whatever. So, fast forward, the end of our day where they've taught you how to march.

• 14:44Speaker 01

  They've given you, they've put you in uniforms, they've shaved your head, and now it's time to put on a parade by the end of the day for the parents, you know, family members. My aunt's still there, she's hanging out, you know, wanting to see how this thing turns out. And so this parade, this our day parade, is the only parade where they reverse height order the formation. So the short kids are in the front and the tall kids are in the back so that the, the parents can see their kid. So needless to say, I'm standing in formation. And I'm kind of going over in my head all the things that have happened to me today. People yelling at me, you know, marching me around, I already know how to march, I know how to wear a uniform, it's not a big deal, you know, why is everybody mad? I don't understand.

• 15:26Speaker 01

  And then I realized I haven't had any water. And they, they've been telling us all day, drink water, drink water, drink water. I've been running from one place to another, I haven't done it. So I'm like, oh, man, I'm gonna go get some water. So I take two steps to the rear, left face, exit the formation like it's supposed to, square the corners, go inside this doorway inside of a, they call them Sally ports, the openings in the barracks where the cadets march out. So I go into the door, there's a water fountain in there and I'm sipping.

• 15:54Speaker 01

  Oh my God, six seniors are screaming at me and they're giving me facing movements. So I have to look at them in the face as they're screaming at me. And I don't understand why they're mad because I'm just doing what you told me. But again, it's not working out for me. And then the formation starts to move, the parade has started and they are still giving me the business. So, they said, get out there, get out there. So they basically throw me into the formation, but the short kids are all gone. I'm in the back, everybody's a head taller than me, everybody. So one of my roommates from Cadet Base Training was a basketball recruit. This dude was, he was 6'10" and I'm just two rows in front of him.

• 16:38Speaker 01

  5'9", 8 on a, you know, 9, 8 with a fro, 8, 9 with a fro, right? So literally, everybody's that much taller than me. And we march out there, man, and we get after it and we come back. Well, fast forward, I don't know, 35, 36, 7 years, I get promoted to four star. One of the dudes in the picture found that photo that his parents took on our day of me, like, you know, a foot shorter than everybody else in that part of formation. He's like, hey, I found this picture of you, but I can't understand why you're in this part of the formation, it just doesn't make sense. I go, well, I got a story for you.

• 17:19Jocko Willink?

  Now you know.

• 17:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was well hydrated, but I got the business, like right as we were going out. But that, that's kind of the story of, of my West Point experience. It was, um, harsh opening shock for me initially because I didn't understand the environment. But man, what a great, just crucible for you academically, athletically, professionally, um, to become an Army officer. I mean, there's no better, there's no better proving ground for that.

• 17:48Jocko Willink?

  How long did it take you to kind of say to yourself, oh, I get this now? I mean, was it like day five, you're like, okay, I, I see what this is. This is, this is, uh, high school ROTC on steroids and I got to play this game, I got to get these things right.

• 18:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I had some help. I'd say it was probably the first week, um, but then the first couple of days, we're in the mess hall. Now, I don't know if you've ever been to West Point mess hall. Yeah, it's like Hogwarts times six. And so, yeah, we're cadet, new cadets were at the table, 10 at the table, you're supposed to combine your, your gaze to the table itself, we're not supposed to look around. And so they called all the first class cadets up to the poop deck. So all of the, the seniors that were running Cadet Base Training are all supposed to go to this spot, central spot. So I'm thinking, okay, here's my chance. I've been wanting to look around this place the whole time and I can't. And I'd never visited before, so it's all new. So I'd

• 18:46Speaker 01

  gazing around, you know, looking around, like, man, that's amazing, flags, the mural, look at all, stained glass, this is awesome. And then there's just somebody right behind me.

• 18:57Speaker 01

  What are you doing?

• 19:00Speaker 01

  Sir, I am gazing around. He goes, I can see that. What are you specifically looking at? Honor code, right? Paintings on the wall. Any painting in particular? Yes, sir, this one, that, that one. So he goes, okay, let's go take a closer look. And he marches me to within about a foot of this painting. And then he goes, closer, closer, closer. So now my nose is touching the, the painting and he goes, original oil or print?

• 19:38Speaker 01

  Sir, it's an original oil. He goes, okay. How much do you think something like this costs? I said, sir, I do not know. That's one of your four responses. Yes, sir, no, sir, no excuse, sir, sir, I do not know. He goes, venture a guess. Sir, I don't know. He goes, you think that maybe it's priceless? Yes, sir. It's, it's probably priceless. He goes, where are you from? He goes, sir, I'm from Louisiana. More specific. Sir, I'm from Leesville, Louisiana. He goes, okay, Leesville. Don't you think that maybe an institution that can put priceless art in the effing chow hall

• 20:23Speaker 01

  can afford a plane ticket to send your country ass back to Leesville, Louisiana? Yes, sir. Because there's 1,500 new cadets in here. You're the only one gazing around. Play the game, son, or this ain't gonna last long.

• 20:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 20:42Speaker 01

  And so he marched me back over my spot. I'm like, oh, oh. Yeah, this is more serious than I originally thought it was.

• 20:49Jocko Willink?

  I went to Officer Candidate School in Pensacola, Florida, you know, run by Marine Corps drill instructors. And same thing, you got to score, they call it square in your meals and you can only look straight ahead. You can't look down at your meal. You just gotta look straight ahead. And so I'm get down to the table, you know, it's the first meal, maybe the second meal. And, you know, I got some kind, I got a chicken on my plate. I gotta take a look at the chicken. And I'm thinking to myself, there's no way that anyone can see, you know, there's no way they, I'd, so I'd take the most miniscule glance down at my plate. And he says, I might as well just like jumped up and down and said, come and haze me. Cause everybody saw it. Yeah, it's wild. When everyone is doing one thing and one of these things is not like the other.

• 21:26Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 21:27Jocko Willink?

  Man, you stand out. As far as, you know, going to, going to West Point, when you're, when you look back, leadership lessons that you learned there, what do you really, what do you, what do you really lean on from those days?

• 21:40Speaker 01

  It's a number of things and a lot of it has to do with, with accountability and responsibility and discipline. So academically, I was not, I was not prepared for the rigor of West Point in that everything was easy in high school. You know, I had good, you know, ACTN SAT scores. So my mom's a teacher, relatively easy business, right? So know the teacher, know the test, she would say all the time. She would ask, do your best. Okay, do my best. Well, at West Point, they put, you know, 10 pounds of, you know, education in a five pound bag. And it's, it's intended to teach you to prioritize, to, to understand that time is a valuable

• 22:23Speaker 01

  resource and you have to best use it on the things that are most important. So I didn't figure that out until my sophomore year at school. So academically struggling, but a lot of that was because I was, you know, not focused on study. I mean, I was, you know, socially, I was very successful in terms of, you know, making friends and, you know, sit, you know, getting myself, you know, situated in terms of, you know, having folks that I could count on and, and building the relationships, but I wasn't doing the work. So I had an economics class, started sophomore year, instructor, Ranger Qualified Captain. You know, he's basically laying out, hey, here are the rules of the road. One instructor over 15 students, which is most, most of the West Point classes are that way.

• 23:07Speaker 01

  Good student to instructor ratio to be able to get the kind of individualized attention you need. And he said, okay, we're gonna start each class with one of the cadets opening the class. So you'll go through the study for the evening and then you'll help summarize the lesson for your classmates, the first day in class. And we'll open each lesson with one of you doing that. And that's your class participation grade. So, you know, here, here's how it goes. So it's, you know, just like a jump master. You watch me. So he, he opens the class and it was brilliant. So, okay, cool. Well, the next class, I had some project in another class that was more time consuming.

• 23:52Speaker 01

  So I did not study economics that day. Yeah. So.

• 23:58Jocko Willink?

  How'd Murphy's Law work out for you?

• 24:00Speaker 01

  You know exactly how, oh, man, every time. So it's like, okay, Cadet Clark, open the class for us. And I said, sir, I'm unprepared. And he goes, why? I go, no excuse, sir. He goes, don't give me that plebe response BS. Why are you not ready? Sir, I'd assume risk. I, you know, studied for something else and didn't apply the time I had to this. He goes, all right, stay after class, which, you know, okay. And then he asked a question, would anyone like to open the class for Cadet Clark? All 14 hands go up and like, oh, buddies, good job. Yeah. So after class, he goes, hey, just got a couple of questions for you.

• 24:45Speaker 01

  One of them, why are you here? Sir, I'm here to become a commissioned leader of character for the United States Army and the nation. He goes, don't give me that West Point mission BS, man. Like, why are you here? Sir, I'm, I'm here to become a infantry officer. I'm gonna be an infantry platoon leader, infantry lieutenant. And he goes, would you show up for work unprepared as a platoon leader? I'm, I'm offended by the question. Absolutely not. He goes, how's this different? Like, the task is homework for all your classes. He goes, if you don't do this, you'll never do that. Says, get to the business.

• 25:28Speaker 01

  And I hear my mom's voice, you know, know the teacher, know the test, you know, do your best and school is your job. Do your job. So that was the lesson. School is your job, do your job. And from that day forward, my academic performance went up. My, my relationship with education improved immediately and, and I, I ended up getting exactly what I earned. I got my branch, I got my post of choice and I got the right timeline going into the Army because I had an opportunity to affect it early enough that it wasn't, you know, some situation I had to fall into, it was something I was able to drive.

• 26:09Jocko Willink?

  And you're making all this, was there a thousand people in every graduating class?

• 26:12Speaker 01

  Thousand.

• 26:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. I have, I've gone up and spoken at West Point a few times and it's just, you can feel there's a level of camaraderie there that's gonna last a lifetime, for sure.

• 26:21Speaker 01

  Well, you all go into the same company together. And it's unlike the other service academies where they split. So in the Navy, some go in the Marine Corps, some go in the Navy. At Air Force, some go in Air Force, some go in the Space Force until such time as Space Force Academy is created. In the Army, at West Point, we all go into the Army together.

• 26:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 26:39Speaker 01

  So you'll have classmates with you at every stop. So I always tell cadets, I've been up, you know, many, many times to talk to cadets and I tell them all the time that what you do as a cadet echoes in eternity.

• 26:51Jocko Willink?

  What do you mean?

• 26:54Speaker 01

  And the negative. Oh, yeah. It's like who you are is who you are. So if you are not a good teammate, if you're a person that is not a serious human, you do dumb things, that when you become the chief of staff of the Army, they'll be like, that dude's dumb. That dude is not a good leader. Uh, yeah, he's terrible. Didn't work with teammates. Oh, man, let me tell you about the one time, you know, when we were at, you know, some place and things didn't go right and this guy was off, you know, off his rocker when he did X, Y, and Z. I mean, you don't outgrow it because everybody is with you all the time.

• 27:34Speaker 01

  So, you know, one of my kids, uh, and they were on their first day in college, the, the dean of students stood up there and said, hey, and it's Duke University. So they, they form the number of the year they're supposed to graduate for. So for her, it was 2016. They spend all day putting these kids in white T-shirts and getting them into a formation to spell a number. And it's, you know, it's literally all day. It's like a concert wrapped in, you know, some welcome briefs and family stuff and then they get the picture. And they say, some of you will not see each other this way again until graduation. So make some friends, you know, get to know each other because the next time you'll all be together is graduation.

• 28:19Speaker 01

  And I'm in a, I'm in a crowd, I'm thinking, well, that's odd. Like I saw everybody, you know, two, two mandatory meals a day, the entire Corps of Cadets for four years. And then you go out into the Army with, you know, your mates and you're, you can plan it so you're kinda there together. Um, so, you know, quick story, good friend of mine, we picked our branches together, we picked our posts together and we ended up being platoon leaders in the same company. You know, two of the three PLs are me and Carlos, right? And so, but we planned it like that and, and got it that way. So you can't run away from who you are. It echoes.

• 29:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 29:03Speaker 01

  Echoes.

• 29:05Jocko Willink?

  So what was your first assignment when you got done? Did you go to, what schools did you get while you were, let me ask you that first? What schools did you go to when you were at the academy?

• 29:13Speaker 01

  I went to jungle school.

• 29:15Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 29:16Speaker 01

  Uh, summer of eighty six down to Panama. Had some serious business.

• 29:21Jocko Willink?

  Black palm.

• 29:22Speaker 01

  Black palm, poison dart tree frogs, vampire bats and howler monkeys. Yeah, it was, you know, the deal.

• 29:29Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I did.

• 29:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's forty. Yeah, just trying to stay alive, let alone try to learn how to fight. And then airborne school, uh, summer of eighty seven.

• 29:37Jocko Willink?

  Nice. And then so what's your first assignment you get done when you graduate?

• 29:40Speaker 01

  Germany, third armored division.

• 29:42Jocko Willink?

  Boom.

• 29:43Speaker 01

  Five, five, Cav.

• 29:44Jocko Willink?

  And they, they, they put you right into a platoon?

• 29:46Speaker 01

  They did. Right away.

• 29:47Jocko Willink?

  How, how's that for you?

• 29:49Speaker 01

  Uh, well, you know, Ranger School and then the Bradley.

• 29:53Jocko Willink?

  Oh, so you did, you went to Ranger School right after?

• 29:55Speaker 01

  Right away. Yeah, it was a great story. So me and one of my roommates, uh, he was off, off the Ford org for his first assignment. So we came up with this plan where the only two guys in our company that branched infantry is like thirty people in the company, guys and gals. And so he and I had been in the same third and fourth grade class at Fort Bliss Elementary, played on the same Pee Wee football team. You know, he was an O lineman. I was a running back. And so we're, you know, we're roommates multiple times at school. And, you know, we both branched infantry and it's like, dude, thirty days leave after graduation? Like, we don't need all that. Let's go to the first possible, it was IOBC back then, they've dropped their basic course, Bullock now.

• 30:39Speaker 01

  Let's go to the first class they offer so that we can get in the first Ranger class and be tabbed out before Christmas. Let's do it. And you know, you're like one hangnail away from that not happening at any point in Ranger School. So, so we, we waive leave, like eleven, ten, eleven days leave. That's free. Like West Point gives that to you because they need you to get your mind right and decompress and no, no, they'll give you thirty more if you want that too. Uh, so you can get up to sixty days leave back then upon graduation. Oh, no, we only need like nineteen. And we're getting down to Fort Beginning, right? So we, we get to Benning, we're in the same squad and the basic course, you know, shared apartment.

• 31:20Speaker 01

  Then we go to Ranger School. We're Ranger buddies in the course. And so, you know, up and down, but we make it through together. Heck, yeah. And then he goes off to California. I still have to stay at Benning and do another school. So I wasn't doing good math at all. I mean, I'm thinking I'm going to the line. No, you're not. You're going to stay here and go to this Bradley course, which was fine. I get to Germany. What I didn't realize is because I'd cut down on the amount of wait time I'd have at Benning between courses and I didn't recycle anything. I was in Germany at five months before my classmates.

• 31:53Speaker 01

  Six months, seven months before some of them, because it, it took a while for them to get through whatever things were. So I show up. First day, my company commander says to me, I see that you're a West Point graduate.

• 32:08Speaker 01

  I said, yes, sir, I am. He goes, hmm, most of my best enemies are West Pointers. And I said,

• 32:19Speaker 01

  thanks, sir. He goes, that's all you got to say? I was like, wow, I think I, I think I'll do okay here. Cause I, all of my best enemies are West Pointers. I, you know, I know a lot of them.

• 32:32Jocko Willink?

  You got that.

• 32:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I got that. I was just gonna work out. Okay. And he busts out laughing. He goes, you got a good sense of humor. You're gonna work out. Okay. Here. I was like, okay, sir. Thanks. He goes, go upstairs, meet your new platoon sergeant. He's the acting platoon sergeant and, uh, tell me whether or not you want to keep him.

• 32:51Speaker 01

  Okay. So you're the third, third platoon leader. So I hustle upstairs, you know, walk into the little office. And when I walk in, this guy doesn't stand up.

• 33:04Speaker 01

  I said, okay, starting your, uh, platoon sergeant? He goes, for now.

• 33:11Speaker 01

  No, sir, no, nothing. And he's chubby and he's got this big old out of regulation bushy mustache. And he goes,

• 33:20Speaker 01

  well, you know, I'm the platoon sergeant because everybody here is scared of me. The first sergeant, the SAR major. Now I'd met the CSM when I in process. The CSM was, uh, you have two CIBs from Viet, you know, two terms in Vietnam, you have CIB.

• 33:40Jocko Willink?

  He ain't scared of nothing.

• 33:41Speaker 01

  Oh, no. Bronze Star of Valor, one seventy third freaking Vietnam. Nah, I don't think so. Ranger qualified. I'm like, I don't think so. So I was like, okay, uh, you hold what you got. I'll be right back. So I hustle back downstairs. I've been gone all of maybe three minutes. And I say to the company commander, this ain't gonna work out. And he goes, he goes, I guess all your experience in the army without non-commissioned officers has given you the understanding that with your West Point experience, you can just judge non-commissioned officers in one minute. I said, this is where my dad's ambassador started.

• 34:19Speaker 01

  If, if I was gonna call him right now and say, what should I do? His response would be fire that guy. Didn't stand up when I walked in room, never addressed me as sir lieutenant, you know, out of, you know, out of regulations with the mustache and, and probably fat, you know, too fat. And he goes, okay, you passed the test. You know, your actual platoon sergeant is in route. This is nuts. So, so new platoon sergeant shows up and, uh, so he and I go sit in the same office and, you know, tall guy. You know, fit, you know, kind of rangey, Clint Eastwood-y kind of, kind of guy, except he's from Louisiana. He's from, uh,

• 35:00Speaker 01

  Cooley Kenny Bayou, which is south of Appaloosas, you know, no zip code, kind of, kind of situation where the road runs out. And, uh, Elmer K. Davis, the third, the raging Cajun. And he says to me, Lieutenant,

• 35:16Speaker 01

  in this short period of time, I have determined that you the best I've done seen. You the best lieutenant I have ever seen. You're gonna shine.

• 35:32Speaker 01

  I said, I don't know what that means. He goes, oh, you gonna shine. I go again, same words. Don't, don't understand what you're saying. He goes, I'm saying you gonna be a general.

• 35:45Speaker 01

  I see it right now.

• 35:49Speaker 01

  I'm just curious, like, how many generals do you know? He goes, none.

• 35:57Speaker 01

  But whatever that thing is they got, you got it. I'm thinking, oh, man, this is not gonna go well. He's nuts. So, so we go out to meet the platoon. And, uh, and it's, it's all, you know,

• 36:11Jocko Willink?

  Is it like nineteen eighty nine right now?

• 36:13Speaker 01

  This is nineteen eighty nine. This is February of nineteen eighty nine. So we go out and meet the platoon and he, he turns the platoon over to me, you know, and we're in this bay at the end of the hallway in the old, you know, World War Two style barracks. And he goes, he goes, Lieutenant, the men are yours. And so I, he goes around. So I start my speech, you know, left shoulder forward because I'd just graduated from Ranger School. Good morning, men. Walking forward, walking backwards. I'm Lieutenant Clark. I am your platoon leader. About that same time, Sergeant Davis comes back around, you know, the business end of the formation and goes, Lieutenant, I need to stop you right there.

• 36:57Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 36:59Speaker 01

  I've given this speech many times in my head. For the last five years, I've been preparing for this moment. And it never, ever at any point has the platoon sergeant stopping me after I say my name.

• 37:13Speaker 01

  And I'm, okay. He goes, I need to ask you to step back in the office. For a second.

• 37:19Jocko Willink?

  Damn.

• 37:19Speaker 01

  Something, you know. Do I trust him? And then I realized,

• 37:26Speaker 01

  he told me I was gonna be a general. So this can't be going that bad. So anyway, I, I do what he says. I go into the office. What I didn't realize is we had taken over a platoon that had five or six soldiers who were being chapered out of the army and they were all in the last rank. And so when I said, stand at ease,

• 37:48Speaker 01

  they sat down. There were some couches. They like broke ranks and sat. So when he walks around the side of the formation, he sees this and he's like, oh no. So he comes back around and he's, hey, I need to stop you. So he proceeds to doing grass drills with them in this confined space. Get up, get down, roll left, roll right, go, stop, go. The flutter kick. It was a mess. So for about fifteen minutes, he sweated them up. And then came back and said,

• 38:18Speaker 01

  sir, the men are ready for you now. So I come back out, start out right where I left off. Good morning, men. I'm Lieutenant Clark. I am your new platoon leader. And the speech went much better that time, but man, he is, he stayed with me the whole time I was a rifle PL. And has been connected with me and my family, our whole lives. I just talked to him last week. I talked to him about that once every couple of weeks. He'll send me some funny meme or a joke or something. Um, yeah, he, he had me cracking up. This is a couple of days ago. I called him, I explained some problem to him and, you know, what the, you know, wacky solution was that somebody came up with. And he said, you know, know what that sounds like to me, sir?

• 39:02Speaker 01

  That's like somebody shitting their pants and deciding to change their shirt.

• 39:10Speaker 01

  And I said, I can't even, I can't even breathe. I'm laughing so hard. But, but my whole adult life, he's been in it. And ceremonies, you know, promotions, changes of command. He's been there for all of it and he's been there since day one, just a great teammate.

• 39:29Jocko Willink?

  And he was right, apparently.

• 39:31Speaker 01

  About one thing.

• 39:32Jocko Willink?

  Right about that thing.

• 39:34Speaker 01

  A lot of things happened between that day and today, though. Good Lord, yes.

• 39:38Jocko Willink?

  So you do that, that, uh, that rifle platoon leader and then what did you, did you do a scout platoon?

• 39:43Speaker 01

  I was a scout platoon leader after that. So I think 16 months in a rifle platoon and then 16 in scout platoon.

• 39:49Jocko Willink?

  When did, uh, how about the first Gulf War?

• 39:51Speaker 01

  We deployed to Saudi Arabia and then Iraq.

• 39:57Jocko Willink?

  Was that when you were a scout platoon leader?

• 39:58Speaker 01

  A scout PL.

• 39:59Jocko Willink?

  And how was that?

• 40:00Speaker 01

  It was good because you had a, you know, as a scout PL, you kind of have, it's a task force position. So you're, you're really working for the battalion three and the commander. So you have an opportunity to really shape how you train. So that was really the first time I ever felt like I was in charge of something

• 40:19Speaker 01

  on my own. But just before the ground war kicked off, I got injured. So I joined the battalion after coming back from, you know, medical, you know, procedure while they were in Iraq.

• 40:33Jocko Willink?

  Oh dang.

• 40:34Speaker 01

  So yeah, I had to jump back into my platoon after they'd done the hundred hours of marching towards, you know, victory there.

• 40:42Jocko Willink?

  Oh, you must've been going crazy.

• 40:44Speaker 01

  It was nuts. But, you know, the, the whole point is, you know, how do you get yourself back into the fight instead of going in the opposite direction? And so as luck would have it, I'm in the hospital at King Khalid Military City and I'm trying to find my way back. I'm trying to go that way and everybody else is coming this way. So I bump into a kid I went to high school with who was a medic. And he goes, you know, I think we can get an FLA and get it, get it going that way. So let's do it. So I jump in a FLA with a guy I went to high school with and we start making our way towards the war. Where we made it to the division rear and then went forward from there. So yeah, again, people and relationships, you know, this kid sees me and goes, hey, man, it's good to see you. Good to see you too.

• 41:29Speaker 01

  Hey, you know, anybody can get me a ride? Yeah, let's go.

• 41:32Jocko Willink?

  So how was that? Did like, what was your experience coming back from that or, or actually going into like, so what did you do? What, what was your platoon doing?

• 41:39Speaker 01

  At that point, they were securing the, the checkpoint that was between Iraq and Kuwait. So, so going into just north of Safwan. So we're, we're literally in a, in a, basically a blocking position, running a screen on the border to catch leakers and folks who were coming across. And so, you know, I'm out there, you know, doing that. And while I got back to my platoon and they were all like, oh my gosh, you know, we, we thought you were gone right now. No, let's go. So it was good. We spent the next six months really screening that checkpoint and then escorting the Iraqi leadership to have the negotiations with, you know, Schwarzkopf and Colin Powell and all those folks.

• 42:22Jocko Willink?

  It's kind of nice that you got real experience though, as a young platoon commander.

• 42:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's, there's still some hooking and jabbing to be had, uh, once I got back. So, yeah, it was good.

• 42:32Jocko Willink?

  And then what, what was the next assignment after that?

• 42:34Speaker 01

  I've returned, our unit deactivated. So I returned to Benning and, you know, it was overflown, over flooded with, you know, lieutenants who were, you know, short of the career course, young captains. And I was, you know, promotable to captain, but, you know, hadn't, hadn't pinned on yet. So it was one of those, hey, go find yourself a job. So I went out to the Ranger Training Brigade and I spent the next two years at the Ranger School. As cadre, yeah.

• 43:00Jocko Willink?

  What'd you take away from that? It's kind of, you got, you can see a lot when you're on the other side of that stuff.

• 43:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, it kept me in the army is what it did. Cause coming out of my first assignment, I wasn't so sure that this was, you know, for me, I'm married now, got a kid on the way. I mean, you know, my, my mom, you know, for all the years as an army spouse, wasn't so sure about being an army mom. She's like, you should probably do something with your life that's meaningful. And I'm like, I'm, I'm doing it. She goes, no, no, no. You need to jump out of airplanes and run around woods and whatnot.

• 43:35Speaker 01

  Need job with the office and a computer like plants. That's about only greenery. And I'm like, mom, I have a computer. I'm like, I'm the, you know, brigade S5.

• 43:48Speaker 01

  That's not what I'm talking about. But what, what I say, when I say it kept me in the army, it's because it's the first organization I'd ever served in, where the leaders truly shared hardships with subordinates. I mean, there was, everything was, you know, this is what right looks like. I will lead the way. You know, I, what I need you to do is meet my level of excellence. So I really enjoyed that opportunity from the first minute I got there. It was like, hey, I'm not going to ask you to do anything I won't do myself. So let's go. Whereas in my first unit, in my first company, um, the same company commander that had all these, you know, interesting things to say me on, say to me on day one, he, I never paid attention to his, like his activities on a given day.

• 44:30Speaker 01

  I mean, I'm just trying to be a good platoon leader. And the other platoon leaders were also very good. They were newer than me, but they were very good. One being my, you know, classmate, best man at my wedding, Carlos. And so company first sergeant, phenomenal dude. He ended up being a battalion command sergeant major in the 82nd. And so he schedules a company run on this guy's like last couple of days in command. And so, okay, so little four mile run, you know, nine minute pace, whatever it was. So we start running at the end of the first mile, he starts to falter.

• 45:05Speaker 01

  And he, he kind of turns and looks back at the three lieutenants and he's got this kind of wild, like look of fear, you know, wild eyed look of fear. He looks at the three of us and then he says to me, take the company.

• 45:22Speaker 01

  So, so I run up, you know, the three steps or whatever. I put my arm around him. I go, no. Sir, this is your company. This is your run. Slow down. We'll continue to run behind you. He goes, okay. I run back to my spot and Carlos says, you should have took it.

• 45:47Speaker 01

  I would have followed you. And I said, that's why he didn't ask you. Come on, man. So anyway, we had some good leaders, uh, but that was kind of the, that was in a nutshell, you know, my experience with that group of leaders. And so going to the Ranger Training Brigade and having a completely opposite environment, you know, where the leaders are like, hey, look, here's, you know, here's the task, here's the conditions and here's the standard. And this is what we're going to do. And I'm, oh, by the way, going to be in the front. You know, let's go. And so I, I just, it fundamentally changed the way I viewed the army and, and it kept me in uniform. Because I don't think I would have stayed if I'd had another experience like the first one back to back.

• 46:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Yeah. And then what, you two years of that, of that teaching Ranger School?

• 46:33Speaker 01

  Two years.

• 46:33Jocko Willink?

  And then what?

• 46:34Speaker 01

  I was on the staff. So I wasn't, you know, I was, you know, dressed up like an R I. You do all the tasks with the students, but you're not at the grade patrols.

• 46:42Jocko Willink?

  Got it. Got it. So you did that for two years. What was your next assignment?

• 46:46Speaker 01

  Hawaii.

• 46:47Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 46:48Speaker 01

  25th Infantry Division.

• 46:49Jocko Willink?

  Oh, nice.

• 46:49Speaker 01

  Tropic Legged. Oh, yeah.

• 46:52Jocko Willink?

  And what'd you roll into for your first job out there?

• 46:54Speaker 01

  Uh, I was a staff officer at division, uh, working in the G3. It was good because you get a good understanding of things. Over the, over the course of, you know, about a year in that job. And then I bounced out of there to brigade. So I was the brigade adjutant for a year or for six months. And then I went down into company command. Bravo Company, 127 Infantry, Boersai.

• 47:15Jocko Willink?

  Get some.

• 47:16Speaker 01

  Yep. That was so good. It's the first job I ever had in the army that I knew what to do on day one. It's like I, I have a plan and we're going to execute, execute it violently.

• 47:26Jocko Willink?

  What was your mission like? What were you guys doing?

• 47:28Speaker 01

  We were a light infantry company, uh, in a light infantry brigade and a light infantry division. So it was all, you know, really closing with the enemy by means of fire maneuver.

• 47:37Jocko Willink?

  Do you guys just get racked up with just doing exercises and training exercises?

• 47:40Speaker 01

  That was it.

• 47:41Jocko Willink?

  Do you deploy anywhere? Do you go work with other countries and whatnot?

• 47:44Speaker 01

  We did across the region, a series of exercises, uh, that we now string together for operation pathways. Back then it was all bespoke exercises, but we would go someplace, Japan and spend a month and a half, you know, doing cold weather training with the Japanese. And you get better and you build that camaraderie with them. So that, you know, should you have to go to crisis or conflict again, it's not the first time you've encountered one another. But we did a bunch of exercises, Cobra Gold in Thailand. We did North Wind and Orient Shield in Japan because the Wolfhound's have a connection to Japan. So, so they leveraged that in the training, you know, pipeline of things. So a bunch of time in the Pacific Theater exercising.

• 48:29Jocko Willink?

  Any, any major lessons learned you took away from that company command?

• 48:32Speaker 01

  Sure. Um, the things that we know are important, like, um, just being tough, being disciplined. That, that is, you know, it's part of the timeless, you know, nature of what we do. So the company I inherited did not have, uh, the silver, silver streamer for physical fitness excellence. Which the streamer is just, you know, on your company guide on, you have like the streamer and it says for physical fitness excellence. It's silver, blue lettering. And every infantry company in the division had one but us. We were the only ones. And so I asked the question, I'm like, why don't we have a streamer? They're like, oh, sir.

• 49:13Speaker 01

  You know, we, our PT sucks. And I'm like, how's our PT suck? You know, we're all in the same brigade. I mean, I don't understand, you know, there's tasking standards, we got stuff like, oh, you know, we don't have any ownership, like at the squad platoon level. It's all like company stuff. And I was like, okay, cool. Then what we'll do is we'll do two days of company PT, two days of platoon PT and one day of company PT that's all ability group.

• 49:37Speaker 01

  I know by the way, anybody that can beat me on APFT gets my parking space.

• 49:44Speaker 01

  Let's go. So, you know, back then could get up and get down. So, yeah. No one parked in my space for the entire time I was company commander. But we went from not having a streamer to having the highest PT average in the division. But part of that was because we just made it hard, you know, take the easy out of this thing. So, you know, you sit down with your soldiers and you go, okay, what's on your mind? And the answer back is like, hey, we got all these rules. You go like, what, what do you mean? Like it's SOPs. Like we can only take one pound of, you know, lickies and chewies to the field.

• 50:20Speaker 01

  Why? Well, you know. Yeah, well, it's about soldiers load and you don't want them carrying a whole bunch of stuff. But you're a grown man, you can carry as much as you can carry. I mean, if you want to take a bag of Doritos to the field with you and a two liter Coke? Go for it. Probably wouldn't, I wouldn't do that, but have it, you know? Let's go. So I'm like, that rule is now this, you know, gone and the kids are like, yeah. So they, you know, they load up for the first, uh, field problem. And we're gonna, it's just, you know, we're alert marshal to assemble on a Monday, do pre combat inspections and checks. And then we go to the field Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, come home on Friday, recover and then go into the weekend.

• 51:02Speaker 01

  So, so we start, you know, the, the morning formation. Everybody's got rucks, we're all ready to go and there's no trucks.

• 51:14Speaker 01

  There ain't gonna be any trucks. I'm walking to the field, which you can do in Hawaii. And so, so it's like, all right, cool. So we start walking, only we're not going in the direction of the training area. We're going in the opposite direction because we're going to put a 12 miler on the front of this. Going into the field because you, when you get there, you gotta be able to fight. It's not one of these, you know, hey, we're gonna do a 12 mile for a second, doing 12 miles. So we, we take off. The first time we stop to like do a water check, you know, water break, whatever, let dudes check their socks. First sergeant has a couple of them 55 gallon trash, you know, bins with the bag in it. And he goes, he big Simone guy, Sam Maalupi. Tautau la su in Maalupi.

• 51:59Speaker 01

  Big Simone guy, that's what he called himself, big Simone guy. Goes, hey.

• 52:06Speaker 01

  Anybody wants to throw any of that shit away? I got a can over here for you. Oh, man, it was beanie weenies and cans of Denny Moore soup and all two liter bottles of soda and just, you know, a package of pound snicker bars. So he put all this stuff in a, get two big old bins and he had them take it back to the company. And, uh, and then we kept marching. We get to the field, do the field problem, we walk back. So now you get to decide what you're going to take, but it's a discipline issue, right? Are you gonna, you had dudes who had like the next time were cutting their MREs, taking out the stuff they didn't want and then taping up, taking the cardboard out because that's like too much weight.

• 52:50Speaker 01

  So, so you can get to the standard that you want guys to be disciplined in doing this the right way. But there's a way to do it that it's their choice, their decision. And they're, you know, they're making the, the grown up, you know, kind of, you know, decision calculus associated with the things you have to, you have to do. Because you can't be IMT in with it. You know, two liter bottle of Mountain Dew, I mean, I love you, but that ain't gonna work. So all those lessons about, you know, being fit, disciplined and motivated, you know, leading from the front. All that stuff you learn all along the way. I mean, those lessons as a company commander were so good because that group of, of young men.

• 53:30Speaker 01

  Five of them became colonels. One of the colonels was a corporal.

• 53:38Speaker 01

  And he's still in the army. He knew, he and I are the only two guys in that company still in the army. I actually officiate his retirement, uh, second week of December.

• 53:44Jocko Willink?

  Nice.

• 53:45Speaker 01

  Uh, which then makes me the only guy. But then there were nine sergeants major out of that company. I mean, those cats were getting it and they were strong and they were fit and they were motivated and I still stay in touch with them. Actually, three guys came to Hawaii on, uh, on vacation and we had them over the house, big, big hoo-ha for them, but yeah.

• 54:03Jocko Willink?

  You get so much DNA, uh, like when the SEAL teams, you get so much DNA from your first platoon. And what is your first platoon chief like? And, you know, later, later on in my career, when I was in charge of training and I'd meet some guy that was a platoon chief for the first time and he's kicking ass. And I go, hey, who's your first platoon chief? And they tell me, you could see it, like you could see. And then occasionally you get the guy that was not doing good. Who's your first platoon chief? Oh, so and so, yeah. You might want to take a look around and maybe look for some, some other role models because they're out there. But it leaves a huge mark and you can see that, that DNA kind of, kind of disseminates throughout people's careers and you can track it. It's pretty awesome. Do you remember, so now we got, you got what, two, two tours as a platoon commander and now a company commander?

• 54:45Jocko Willink?

  Did you, do you remember any tragic mistakes that you made or anything along the way where you said, oh, I wish I could get a redo on that one?

• 54:52Speaker 01

  Man, yeah, when I was a rifle platoon leader.

• 54:56Speaker 01

  Lot of stories about Carlos. Well, my man was good. He was the best lieutenant in our battalion. So our company had three platoons that qualified first time on Bradley table 12. And that's when they first started the platoon battle table for Bradleys. And so Carlos's platoon was the first one to qualify, first run. Really good platoon sergeant, he was excellent. And so because all of our platoons qualified on this, we were able to secure this combined arms live fire. And graph and beer, and it was with all the stuff, I mean, 155, you know, echelon and fires to 105 to 81s to, you know, just getting it.

• 55:34Speaker 01

  And there's this, it's this, this obstacle that we're supposed to breach as a company and then attack on to, you know, this, this objective. And so there's a signal for, you know, the support by fire to open up. That's, that's first, that's second platoon, they have the support by fire. And then they're going to attack through and secure near side. And then Carlos's platoon's a main effort, they secure, you know, the backside of the breach. My platoon is supposed to cure, secure the breach and then join the company later. So I'm in a supporting effort.

• 56:08Speaker 01

  Well, everything kicks off, you know, spotty comms like you'd expect, but you've got a pace plan. Primary alternate contingency, emergency. So green star cluster means that, that the armored vehicle launch bridge, AVLB is in. So now we can get across, uh, the gap. Well, they fire green star cluster. We leave our assault position. So it's four Bradleys across this open ground and we are hauling, we got smoke generators going. I'm the first Bradley and we are getting it.

• 56:39Speaker 01

  I look over, I see something moving to my left, it's the bridge.

• 56:44Speaker 01

  They put up the wrong star cluster, so they are behind me.

• 56:50Speaker 01

  Now I'm screaming towards this gap and I can't, there's no bridge. So I say to my driver, Floyd Ellison, do you think we can make it across the tank ditch? And he goes, I reckon so.

• 57:05Jocko Willink?

  Oh, man.

• 57:06Speaker 01

  Kid from Oklahoma, I reckon so. So he punches it and the Bradley is going about as fast as it can go. I don't know how fast we're going, gave everybody inside brace for impact. So we jump the tank ditch. About the time I get airborne, I hear my platoon sergeant, no.

• 57:27Speaker 01

  So we, we make it to the far side.

• 57:31Speaker 01

  But not across. So now I'm in the tank ditch.

• 57:35Jocko Willink?

  They don't call a tank trap for nothing.

• 57:37Speaker 01

  Nothing. I'm in it from trim vein to ramp. Everybody inside's okay. Oh, man. So we fire, you know, fire, smoke, call for more smoke. Platoon sergeant says, hey, get off your vehicle, yells to me. So I, I, I see he's off his vehicle. He's grabbing the tow cable off the back of my Bradley and then we grabbed the one off of his Bradley. He crosses the tow cables from his Bradley to mine and he snatches me out of the tank ditch.

• 58:10Jocko Willink?

  Legit?

• 58:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. So by the time I get out of the ditch, we unhook the cables, the bridge is in. So now we attack across the bridge, secure the far side. DJ's platoon attacks through, Carlos's platoon attacks through. Victory.

• 58:27Speaker 01

  So I think, you know, yeah, except I'm the lieutenant tried to dump tank ditch. So now we're at the AR. What I don't realize is I knew the battalion commander was there, but so is the brigade commander and the division commander. So two star up on the hill watching this whole thing. And so we sit down, you know, the S3 is going through the, okay. Uh, let's talk about what happened, let's talk about what was supposed to happen. And the division commander interrupts, he goes, hey, before we get started, I gotta know. Who tried to jump that tank ditch?

• 58:59Speaker 01

  And that's the response. People are laughing and I go, sir, it was me.

• 59:03Jocko Willink?

  Dukes of hazard.

• 59:04Speaker 01

  He goes, exactly. General Lee himself. He goes, he goes, why?

• 59:11Speaker 01

  I said, well, sir, the, the bridge wasn't it. I mean, had to do something. And he goes, that's the spirit of the attack. That is a lawns, the spirit of the cavalry. That's exactly what we want to train into our lieutenants. Coin of excellence.

• 59:26Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 59:28Speaker 01

  So dudes are looking at me like, are you kidding me? I go, oh, I can't. That's all I could say, man.

• 59:33Jocko Willink?

  We'll take it.

• 59:34Speaker 01

  We'll take it. Yeah. And twice on Sunday. So if you're asking me if there's some things I wish I could take back, yeah, I don't want to jump that tank this again. That was dumb.

• 59:42Jocko Willink?

  Even, even, even against the spirit of the cavalry.

• 59:45Speaker 01

  Oh, I know. Yeah, that was not good. Yeah, I got skidded on that one a couple of times, but yeah, that's, that's one for sure.

• 59:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's the kind of move that earn you a nickname if you're not careful.

• 59:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a call sign maker.

• 59:57Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's a call sign maker for sure.

• 1:00:01Speaker 01

  Another one was when I was a major, I was in the op four battalion at the Joint Fitness Training Center and um, you know, our, our tack had been in the box for six days and we end up coming into contact. Uh, you know, we got discovered. So we're, we're fighting. So it's a battalion commander. The three, the two, and the Alpha Company Commander happened to be there for somebody. He has four officers out there hooking and jabbing, you know, with our long rifles and maneuvering against the hundred and first, right? So, uh, and so we decided to get aggressive like, yeah, what do you, you know, what do you think you do? Um, as, as the, as the three, I'm like, hey, I think we go try and find their tack and roll it up. Let's go.

• 1:00:41Speaker 01

  So, yeah, so we, we start moving. Oh no, we, we walked into a rifle company that was sitting in like a ORP and of course, you know, at the time, because it's a small community and that observer controls OCs and the op four and everybody, we're all, we all live in the same neighborhoods. I mean, our kids go to school together. We're all there together. It's small. And it's my, also my hometown. So, you know, I know more people than I'm supposed to. And more people know me than they're supposed to. So anyway, we're, word gets out that I've been killed in the box. That Geronimo three call sign Wampus Cat has been killed in the box.

• 1:01:21Speaker 01

  So, oh man. So I go, you know, we get picked up by White Cross. I go sign in the dead book in the battalion headquarters and then I go home.

• 1:01:30Speaker 01

  I'm at home, I'm eating dinner. The kids had some kind of program at the school that night. At the time, my son is maybe in the fourth grade. He walks in and he goes, aw man. First he sees me, he goes, aw man.

• 1:01:44Speaker 01

  It's true. And I'm like, what? He goes, you know, people were saying tonight at school that you had gotten rolled up.

• 1:01:54Speaker 01

  And I said, no, they're never going to get Wampus Cat. Never. He's like,

• 1:02:02Speaker 01

  they were right. You got rolled up. So when your eight year old is telling you, you got rolled up because you tried to be bold and audacious. Yeah, that stings. Yeah. And so my six year old, she walks by, she's shaking her head like, oh, man.

• 1:02:20Jocko Willink?

  The family shame at school.

• 1:02:21Speaker 01

  Sucks, man. You were, you were the man. Now you're just everybody else. Dead walking, dead man walking. But yeah. Yeah, probably shouldn't have done that.

• 1:02:33Jocko Willink?

  Um, you get done with company command and it's time for what you become the aide?

• 1:02:39Speaker 01

  I was the aide to the commanding general of the 25th Infantry Division.

• 1:02:42Jocko Willink?

  Dang.

• 1:02:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. Big time job.

• 1:02:44Jocko Willink?

  How long did you have that tour for?

• 1:02:46Speaker 01

  A year.

• 1:02:47Jocko Willink?

  How was that?

• 1:02:48Speaker 01

  It was good. It was good because I'd been in division three years by the time I took that job. So I knew everybody and knew all the things. And so you're able to help the boss. You know, navigate things and know like down to the, you know, down to the level of the street, what's really going on. And you still know everybody who's down there doing it. So it was helpful.

• 1:03:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no, that's, I, I was Admiral's aide, it came back from Iraq, my first deployment as a platoon commander. And like, that's exactly what, you know, my, my commanding officer at SEAL Team seven was like, you're going to go be the aide. And I said, well, no, sir, you know, I'm, I'm Jocko. I'm the prior enlisted operational guy. I'm going to be, and he's like, you're going to be the aide. So, but that's exactly why, because I could tell the boss what was going on in Iraq, what it was like, what was happening. And, you know, give him the ground truth and also get the, try to explain to the boys what's going on.

• 1:03:36Speaker 01

  That too.

• 1:03:37Jocko Willink?

  Let me tell you what it's like up there with these, all these stars running around. Every little dumb move that we make gets seen by everybody.

• 1:03:44Speaker 01

  Everybody.

• 1:03:44Jocko Willink?

  You know, the, the Navy, we have that one little element, these guys, these, these SEALs, like, we messed something up and everybody in the Navy knows about it. So, uh, it was good lessons learned for me.

• 1:03:55Speaker 01

  No doubt.

• 1:03:56Jocko Willink?

  And then, and then what? You're up for your OpsXO tour?

• 1:03:59Speaker 01

  No, I went to, uh, back to our, uh, human resources command to be an assignment officer.

• 1:04:05Jocko Willink?

  Oh dang.

• 1:04:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. So detailer, basically. Um, hard job because, you know, you're working with your peers, you know, trying to get them into the right assignments, take care of their families. You take a rucksack full of people and you know, friends home every night, trying to get it right for them, to get them in the right place to be successful and, and to meet their, you know, their family requirements while also meeting our needs. So, tough job, learned a lot.

• 1:04:30Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:31Speaker 01

  Um, you know, you have to have hard conversations with people, you know, and it's, you know, there's some rules to it. You know, if you end up jamming somebody, you better remember. Cause they know and they're coming for you at some point.

• 1:04:42Jocko Willink?

  The worst time anybody ever snapped?

• 1:04:44Speaker 01

  Oh, I had a guy come to fight me.

• 1:04:47Jocko Willink?

  There you go. I knew there had to be something like that.

• 1:04:50Speaker 01

  I don't know that there's, I've ever heard of a story where an assignment officer had somebody come to HRC, our human resources command to fight them.

• 1:04:59Jocko Willink?

  What, what assignment did you give him?

• 1:05:01Speaker 01

  I was sending him off to, uh, active component, reserve component assignment in, uh, in South Carolina. Which is where he was. I mean, he was, he was there, he was in company command. You know, he's having some struggles and we were trying to help him and he, man, he was coming, coming at the complete wrong direction, which, uh, I was like, hey, man, let me help you here. And he's asking me questions like, where'd you go to school? You know? West Point. Oh, figures. Like, where are you from? Louisiana? Oh, I knew it. You know, he's saying stuff like that. And I'm like, okay. Uh, so he comes up there to, you know, basically, and you, you have all the information on people. You know what they look like because you have their photo. You have everything their bosses have ever said about them. You have all the notes from every conversation they've ever had with other detailers, because that stuff's in there too.

• 1:05:46Speaker 01

  So every time I've talked to this guy, you know, I've given him all his options, didn't like any of them, call him again, give him all his options, didn't like any of them. There are less options now. And now my man has figured out that he's down to like one option and that's it. And it's, you got 30 days to submit your resignation or report. And so he's like, I'm calling my congressman.

• 1:06:10Speaker 01

  And then I'm coming to see you. I was like, all right.

• 1:06:15Jocko Willink?

  And then after that, then it's OpsXO?

• 1:06:17Speaker 01

  Off to school, Commander on Staff College.

• 1:06:19Jocko Willink?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:06:20Speaker 01

  And then to JRTC to be a three in an XO.

• 1:06:23Jocko Willink?

  And how was that tour?

• 1:06:24Speaker 01

  Phenomenal. Yeah, it was, uh, war fighting at its, you know, at its best, basic.

• 1:06:30Jocko Willink?

  What year is this now?

• 1:06:32Speaker 01

  This is 2000.

• 1:06:33Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:06:34Speaker 01

  So 2000 to 2003.

• 1:06:37Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:06:37Speaker 01

  2002. So yeah, two years, uh, in Geronimo.

• 1:06:42Jocko Willink?

  What's your job when, uh, when September 11th happens?

• 1:06:45Speaker 01

  I was in Geronimo. Uh, doing op four.

• 1:06:48Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:06:48Speaker 01

  So units that were gearing up, um, and working up to go to Afghanistan rolled through us first. And the whole point is to give them the toughest fight ever because it's going to save lives on battlefield. So that's exactly where we went.

• 1:07:02Jocko Willink?

  And then are you looking at it? Are you looking at when September 11th happens? Like, hey,

• 1:07:09Jocko Willink?

  are you send me like now?

• 1:07:10Speaker 01

  Oh, absolutely.

• 1:07:11Jocko Willink?

  They got the advertisements now for the army. It's like, send me.

• 1:07:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:14Jocko Willink?

  Bro, everybody says, yeah, everybody in the military says, send me.

• 1:07:18Speaker 01

  And at that point, you figure everybody's going.

• 1:07:20Jocko Willink?

  See, I didn't have that vibe. You know, I, I was, I was going to college at the time and my, the officer detailer was, he was a friend of mine and September 11th happens, I called him. I'm like, hey, sir, like I'm, I'm ready to go. I'll do, I'll complete college later. Get me back to a team, get me back to a team. And he said, I'll get, he said, you got to finish college.

• 1:07:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:07:42Jocko Willink?

  Uh, he said, I'll send you to the next deploying team as soon as you're done. But what's cool is he told me, you know, I was telling him that story years later. And we were, and he said, you know, you know who else called me? And I go, who? He goes, everyone. Everybody that wasn't at a team, every single guy called and said, send me to a team. Cause that's what we do, you know? So, but, but he also told me this war is going to last a long time, which I did not believe at all because, you know, you look at Grenada, Panama, the first Gulf War, these were like, you know,

• 1:08:11Speaker 01

  quick, quick.

• 1:08:11Jocko Willink?

  Yep. A matter of days. And so I figure I'm going to miss, I'm going to miss, you know, miss out on it.

• 1:08:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:17Jocko Willink?

  And boy, was I wrong. And boy, was he right. Cause he said it's going to last for a long time.

• 1:08:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. I, you know, everybody was itching to go, but I knew I also had a pretty important role to play, literally. And, um, I figured we'd get there. So my plan was to go from there to a deploying unit immediately. And I ended up going to Forces Command to be an aide de camp again. Only this time it's for the guy who talked to me about coming to West Point when I was in high school.

• 1:08:45Jocko Willink?

  Oh dang.

• 1:08:46Speaker 01

  Larry Ellis.

• 1:08:47Jocko Willink?

  Damn.

• 1:08:47Speaker 01

  Anybody else? I'm pulling a one riser slip. There's no way. But he said, hey, we're at war. I need you here, somebody I can trust. And he's a four star at the time. He's the force comp commander. He goes, I need you here now. And this is like January. I'm like, sir, I got kids in school like that. He goes, I hear you. You can figure all that out and we'll do whatever we can to help you with it. But I need you here now. And, um, ground war is about to kick off in Iraq. And so pack it up, move to Atlanta. Yeah. Tell the kids dad got rolled up again.

• 1:09:24Jocko Willink?

  And how long is that tour?

• 1:09:26Speaker 01

  A year and a half. Eighteen months.

• 1:09:29Jocko Willink?

  To finish that other story, my, the detailer sent me to SEAL Team Seven, we, and we deployed four months later. Like, he totally took, and he sent me, my commanding officer there was my former XO, and he, I showed up there, he fired a platoon commander and put me in a platoon. Like, I was like, okay, thank you, across the board. Uh, so you, so now you're in this aid job, you're, now you're seeing everything start to happen.

• 1:09:53Speaker 01

  See it all cooking. And you, you have a really good understanding of it. And we actually went to Iraq and Afghanistan while I was with them. So you got to see firsthand what was going on, talk to your peers that are in the fight, uh, really get a good understanding of, you know, not just the broad picture, but also at a pretty granular level, how it's going down. And, you know, you always have these moments when, you know, you, you kind of think to yourself, you know, the man upstairs has got, he's got us identified for another mission later. So that's the only reason we're gonna make it through this. So we, we landed by, this is right after, um, really the ground war kicked off, it's right after they got Baghdad seized. And so we land, C-130 spiraling down, we're gonna

• 1:10:33Speaker 01

  go from C-130, you know, engine running on low, you know, hot, transload on the UH-60s, and we're, you know, we're gonna get it into C-1st Armored Division, because it's one of the boss's divisions. He had 4th ID, 1st Armored, and 101st were all kind of in and around Sunni triangle, Baghdad. So, so we, uh, we land, and the one star who's escorting the boss, he goes, "Hey, aide man, we need your manifest." And at the time, we had, we had four other generals traveling with us, because they had guys, you know, in the fight. And one guy was our National Guard DCG, and then our travel squad, you know, the PSO,

• 1:11:17Speaker 01

  um, personal security officer, the, uh, communications guy, the initiatives group chief, our executive officer. So it's all these guys I work with every day, you know, some of my dudes. And he goes, he goes, "Put the boss, yourself, me, my aide, and everybody you love in the first aircraft. The second one is the one that gets shot down."

• 1:11:46Jocko Willink?

  Chuck.

• 1:11:48Speaker 01

  So, COMO NCO's standing there with me, and he's like, like, he's looking at me like, "How close are we?" So I make out the manifest, and I do exactly what he says, except I put myself on second aircraft. So he takes a look at it and goes, "Are you sure?" I go, "I'm positive. Not doing that. If, you know, this is the place that's, I'm not doing that without me being there too." Well, as things would work out, no one told the pilots who were on one or two, because the two Blackhawks take off, switch spots, and off we go. So now I'm in the first aircraft, my boss is in the second aircraft, doors open, I'm hanging out the door.

• 1:12:33Jocko Willink?

  It's a lose-lose situation.

• 1:12:34Speaker 01

  Oh, man, I'm looking for a smoke trail. Oh, no. Yeah, so needless to say, everybody survived, arrived on, you know, unscathed, but goodness gracious. But it's stuff like that when you're an aide, it's like, are you kidding me? So, yeah, we had, we had a couple of those kinds of moments. You know, we're going across the euphrates, we're in Strikers, and it freaking goes down, man. And they're like, "Should we, action left?" I'm like, "You should not." I'm talking, talking to the battalion commander, I'm like, "You should not." He's like, "Well, hey, man, Force Com commander's in Striker number two, although he would love to be in a firefight with y'all. He's got pistol."

• 1:13:17Jocko Willink?

  Press on.

• 1:13:17Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. So we get to where we're going, and he didn't even know that we'd been, you know, that we'd been shot at. And I was like, "Hey, boss, you know, if this happens," he goes, "What are you talking about? Why didn't we go?" Because I told him not to. You know, we, they'll get them dudes another day. They'll be around when we come back in 2004.

• 1:13:34Jocko Willink?

  Yes, indeed.

• 1:13:35Speaker 01

  But, yeah, a lot of that.

• 1:13:37Jocko Willink?

  So you felt like you had a pretty good grasp, I mean, an amazing kind of vision of what was going on in Iraq at the time. And then, and then, so, and you probably had a pretty good idea of where you were gonna go when you were done?

• 1:13:50Speaker 01

  I did. Uh, yeah, I did. I knew I was going to Campbell. I knew I was going, well, I'd been selected for battalion command, and I knew I was going to Fort Campbell. Uh, I thought I was going to 3rd Brigade, because they hadn't stood up 4th Brigade yet. And so because I went to Campbell early, when they stood up 4th Brigade, they're like, "Hey, you know, you're gonna command 1st Battalion."

• 1:14:13Jocko Willink?

  Tag, you're it.

• 1:14:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. I'm like, "Well, who's there? You?" Like, okay. So we're gonna stand this thing up from the ground, but man, couldn't have asked for a better opportunity to really set conditions for the success of, you know, the organization from your perspective as a commander, because you get to touch it all from the beginning. Uh, so I, you know, literally, good or bad, you know, win or lose, it's, it's you.

• 1:14:36Jocko Willink?

  How much time did you have to kind of get things administratively squared away before you started like a workup or a training cycle?

• 1:14:43Speaker 01

  About six months. Um, so we were building, we received initially one company set of equipment, you know, weapons, nods, and all that. And so as you're, you know, getting folks in, you start building each of the companies, you know, you got, some of the officers came in first, were able to get somebody to sign hand receipts and start receiving equipment and people and getting it done right. But it took us about six months to get everybody there. And then another year of training, basically, to get to the point where, you know, we're ready to deploy.

• 1:15:16Jocko Willink?

  And that's, and that's when you guys went on deployment?

• 1:15:18Speaker 01

  It is.

• 1:15:19Jocko Willink?

  So this is now, what, November of 2005?

• 1:15:22Speaker 01

  November of '05.

• 1:15:23Jocko Willink?

  And you did, the last time I saw, I saw you down at the, um, at the reunion.

• 1:15:28Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:15:29Jocko Willink?

  You walked up to me, you said, "Hey, I got some corrections for Joe Claiborne."

• 1:15:34Jocko Willink?

  When he was on the podcast. Well, one of the first ones, you said, he want, you know, he came to me and said he wanted his company to be called Chaos. And, and in the podcast, he said, I said, "No." You said, "I didn't say no." I said, "Hell, no."

• 1:15:48Speaker 01

  I think it was absolutely not. He's like, "But that's what we prayed on, we thought about." I go, "Listen, man, uh, if you call yourself Chaos, Chaos you will be. You're already Chaos. Let's try to take this down a notch." So, yeah, it was funny. It was great listening to him and then catching up with him again.

• 1:16:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:11Speaker 01

  Oh, man. But all of it came rushing back. You know, I remember one afternoon, you know, because needless to say, Crazy Joe, there was a lot of, there was a lot of after-hours activity that required adjudication out of Charlie Company.

• 1:16:24Jocko Willink?

  Oh, I'm sure.

• 1:16:25Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh. So, I said to my, you know, we, we do this series of briefings, you know, before weekend, it's like a safety brief. So you do a battalion-wide safety brief, pull everybody together, and go, "Okay, don't drink and drive, don't use drugs, don't, you know, go out committing mayhem, don't do all the things, you know, take care of each other, look out for one another, you know, it's about something bigger than yourself, Curry, bring it in, blah, blah, blah." And everybody breaks down, and they do it again at company level. And then they break down and do it again at platoon level. So I said, "Yeah, I wonder what Charlie Company actually says, like, after I get done. Like, what gets transmitted?" And so I, you know, kind of wait a minute, give it a beat, walk down

• 1:17:09Speaker 01

  to Charlie Company, and it's like, "All right, bringing in gun fighters, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." None of that shit was what I just said. None of it. It's like all this, you know, "Hey, blah, blah." I'm like, "Joe, stop. All right. Everybody within the sound of my voice, everything you just heard, I will say it again for you." Oh, man. But, you know, again, he was right about, you know, house cats and alley cats, right? So, yeah, they're, they're, they were definitely made for a fight, which they would have whether you wanted them to or not. Uh, there's a reason why that company was on Corrigidor with me. There's a reason why that company was on the flight with me going to Iraq.

• 1:17:54Jocko Willink?

  Keep them close.

• 1:17:55Speaker 01

  Oh, man. I, yeah. You gotta know, you gotta see them. And of course, they're like, "Oh, your Rickery Six doesn't trust us." "Oh, I trust you. I do."

• 1:18:06Jocko Willink?

  I, I trust you. I know exactly what you're gonna do.

• 1:18:08Speaker 01

  Exactly. Oh, my gosh.

• 1:18:10Jocko Willink?

  How's that workup? You guys feel like you're ready to go when you're heading on deployment?

• 1:18:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was, um, again, we had a good, long period of time to really focus on being brilliant at the basics. Start with, you know, basic weapons qualification, move forward to, to do some advanced weapons, you know, training, advanced marksmanship. Uh, we brought in, uh, some contractors who had recent experience downrange, a bunch of special ops guys retired, uh, to help us to, to take our, um, our Urban Ops SOP and to really clean it up and to make it so that we could put it in a format that everybody could, could see and use. And you guys benefited from that, too. Because a challenge I always had, um, as a commander

• 1:18:58Speaker 01

  is trying to solve for the problems that are sometimes, you know, unsolvable. And one of the unsolvable problems is you know how combat's gonna go, that once you, you know, enter into whatever that fight is, it's never gonna be like training. And we're supposed to train like we fight. So if you have, uh, Urban Ops, you know, training scenario with live ammunition, you know that you have to have the squad leader present, qualified on his weapon, trained on, you know, the entirety of this mission, two team leaders, same proficiency, same training. Everybody's qualified on every weapon they're carrying, and it's an organic unit that's gonna do this together in order to limit the risk

• 1:19:43Speaker 01

  to force in the shoot house every time. In combat, it is never like that. And you can, and as a commander, you can't train that, because the risk is too high. I mean, you can't just go, "Hey, give me two SEALs, a scout, a cat from Charlie Company, and a dude from Dealer, and we'll throw them in a stack, and everybody, one, knows what to do, and two, isn't gonna be the most dangerous person on the battlefield to the other people in the stack, right? So here we go. How do we limit the risk to, to mission and risk to force?" Because the issue in my head is risk to inaction. Because we don't do something,

• 1:20:28Speaker 01

  it increases the amount of risk to our teammates and to the mission. So we used this Urban Operations SOP that we were building to buy down the risk through procedure, right? So everybody knows that, you know, when you go in the door for Battle Drill 6 Alpha, inner building clear room, that the, the number one man doesn't just go left.

• 1:20:53Speaker 01

  Cause there may be furniture, you know, there may, there may be no left, you know, that you go path of least resistance and the, and the team flows and they know where to go. In a room, on a stairwell, in a basement, you know, they understand how everybody's supposed to move one through four or five, or whatever the number of people you have. So the only way to do that is train all leaders. So if everybody from squad leader up in the battalion does this the same way, then we buy down that risk because now they can train all their guys and gals to do the same thing. So you solve for that, you know, hardest problem

• 1:21:33Speaker 01

  you're going to have to solve for. Urban environment at night with enemy and friendly and neutral and furniture and children and you name, and media and you name it. And, and partners, like, how do you do all that? You do it in training by lead, by elite units train leaders first. And that's where we spend a lot of our time and then just build in the proficiency of the organization. So, you know, the thing that I thought the SEALs brought to us in abundance were two things. One toughness and two, the skillset of the

• 1:22:11Speaker 01

  sniper. Now, we had snipers in every company because we'd sent one of our NCOs who was sniper school trained to the sniper course that seventh group runs on Fort Campbell. And so they allowed us to send as many people as we wanted through that course because we had an instructor there. So we had multiple sniper trained, you know, individuals in the scouts. We had them in all the companies designated marksmen. I mean, we had guys that knew how to shoot in extremis. And so having that, you know, we're able to pull this, the SEALs in, in a way that it just made sense that you moved with our scout sniper section because you operate the same way. And, you know, we were just so humbled, you

• 1:22:56Speaker 01

  know, that you guys would show up and go, hey, we want to be like you on the objective. So we want to put on the same camouflage pattern. We're like, okay.

• 1:23:09Jocko Willink?

  When in Rome.

• 1:23:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's cool. Let's go. So they don't, you know, the enemy knows who's wearing what. I mean, they know, that's how they know where the boundaries are because the Marines in three, seven, we're wearing one pattern and we're wearing something else. So when we move a boundary and start fighting, it confuses them. Cause they're like, what are those guys? What are the angry birds doing over here? Getting it? That's right.

• 1:23:30Jocko Willink?

  When did you guys, when did you guys actually know you were going to Ramadi?

• 1:23:35Speaker 01

  Great question. We thought we were going to Sider City. So we were doing all this coordination with third infantry division. And then, uh, while we were in Camp Virginia in Kuwait, you know, you get this kind of, hey, I heard a rumor. You guys are going to Anbar. I told you that. It's like, oh, yeah, it's kind of, yeah, there's, oh man. Yeah, there's an order that you guys are going to go out to Ramadi, to Carrigador. Like, I didn't, I didn't even heard of that. Like, what is that? It's like, well, it's this, you know, Marines are out there. It's a, you know, outpost, east Ramadi is real bad. Okay. So I grabbed my two and I go, hey, find out all you can about Ramadi. He comes back

• 1:24:19Speaker 01

  like 20 minutes later, he goes, hey, sir, I found a video and it's from the day before he had done a Google search of Ramadi off of like, you know, dirty nipper internet at Camp Virginia. And it's like parade down Michigan, black flags, masks, dudes on motorcycles, trucks, firing AKs in the air, the whole deal. And I'm, that was yesterday? Like who, who's letting that happen? And it's like, oh, nobody. It's just that, that's how it is. It's like, oh man, here we go. So we immediately got a leaders recon set. I went out there with

• 1:24:58Speaker 01

  my three, Dave Womack, um, and then our HHC first sergeant, uh, James Bodecker, couple of other teammates are four. Um, yeah. So we, we went out there to kind of check things out and see what was going on. And, uh, so we land into Cotum at night. We get into the convoy with two, six, nine armors support platoon. And these are all eleven bravos. This is like the old school support platoon, not, uh, you know, the, the Ford support companies that we had after we'd become modular brigade combat teams. And so these kids are all eleven bravos and they're literally, you know, give the convoy brief. It's clean. It's really,

• 1:25:37Speaker 01

  really good. And then they give a prayer, also good. And then they start saying goodbye to each other. Like until Valhalla, like last time I'm going to see you is now. Now I'm concerned. Like what, what is going on? I mean, I, I don't understand. Like why? He's like, hey, sir, is it bad? Okay. So, you know, I'm wanting to spout the whole way down the road, man. And, uh, we get onto Carrigador. You know, they put us up in the Patton Arms, you know, little, yeah, we'll call it like a DVQ. It's like a little area where they put people who had to spend the night in Carrigador. And we woke up in the morning

• 1:26:18Speaker 01

  to 11 rounds into, you know, C RAM and then 11 rounds into Carrigador. And so echo for you, C RAM is counter rocket mortar, uh, counter rocket, it's counter rocket and mortar radar.

• 1:26:36Jocko Willink?

  Radar.

• 1:26:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so basically does this. It says incoming, incoming, take cover, take cover. And that's about how much time you have. And then these rounds start landing woo, woo, woo, woo. And we're like, so I yell, hey, everybody get in here. Cause I knew there was like a layer of sandbags above the doorway. Get in here. So they all come running in. And so we're all in there like, what, what is going on? And then I do a chin up because for some reason I'm looking at SEAL. I'm like, it doesn't look like it can hold sandbags. And I do a chin up and the only sandbags are the ones above that door frame. I'm like, oh man, this is bad. So, okay. So we sit down with their chain of command and, you know, we kind of start doing the, the things you need to do. And then

• 1:27:21Speaker 01

  we left the HHC first sergeant and our four there. And then we went back to start getting people ready. So I reorganized the leadership of our distribution platoon and put Sergeant First Class Clip in. He's the guy that was running all of our, um, advanced marksmanship and all that. I put him in as a platoon sergeant for the distro platoon. So he could help get them ready for the fight that they were going to be in day one, minute one. And then started making some other, you know, decisions and changes. And, and so we, we started honing things a little bit, knowing what we were going to go do. And then we get out there. Um, and so the first meeting I have with, uh, you know, now that we're,

• 1:28:05Speaker 01

  we're mid rip. So I show up with Charlie Company, me and Dave. And so we're sitting in the, in the, uh, the office, you remember, you know, the, the battalion commander's little office off to the side of the talk. And, uh, while we're sitting there, you hear this whoosh, and then a boom. And so I, I don't know how Dave was feeling, but I was kind of like, are you, like, you don't want to like react because you know, you're the new guy.

• 1:28:32Jocko Willink?

  Being cool.

• 1:28:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. But the, the two guys, Rob Rogeman and Earl Higgins, neither one of them moved. They're kind of like, and I'm like, no C RAM. Boom, pretty close to here. What do you, the guys think that was? And they're like, and they're getting it, you know, getting status report, you know, no casualties, no injury. What do you think that was? Oh, that's probably a RPG, like rocket, you know, propelled grenade. Like that close? Like where do you think they shot from? And so they had a big overhead projection of, it's like an overhead photo of, of Carrigador. And it was, you know, Carrigador, canal, canal road, and then like maybe a couple of blocks that way. And so they're both like, yeah, they just pop

• 1:29:17Speaker 01

  out of these little streets right here and they shoot into the fob.

• 1:29:24Speaker 01

  Where are they? Right there. They pop out right across the street from here and shoot into the fob. So I look over at Dave and I go, that is unacceptable. And he goes, Roger that. And go kick out some patrols right now. Get them off the fob. And so Charlie Company immediately, they got off the trucks and went straight into the freaking box. Basically they went straight into the mob. Like don't, you know, don't even put your stuff down. Just keep going. So they walked out, immediately started patrolling. And then the cool part about it for us is that's what we do. I mean, we're a light infantry formation. You know, that's normal. Whereas two, six, nine armor was a heavy formation. So it's, it's an armor

• 1:30:04Speaker 01

  centric arm, it's an armor battalion. So everything that they had, uh, was different in terms of tactics, techniques, procedures, equipment. So again, our guys are comfortable doing that. So boys are on patrol and all of a sudden you hear boom, boom, boom. And so Rogie and Earl are like, what was that? And I said, I think that's a Barrett.

• 1:30:37Speaker 01

  And they're like, hey, is somebody, somebody firing a Barrett? They're like, Roger that.

• 1:30:42Jocko Willink?

  Nice.

• 1:30:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. Ray Currie, right off the roof of your building.

• 1:30:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:46Speaker 01

  Shooting at dudes putting in IEDs on canal.

• 1:30:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:49Speaker 01

  From inside the FOB.

• 1:30:50Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:30:51Speaker 01

  So it's like they've already found high ground and using it well in daylight. So, yeah, the, yeah, the, the boys and girls were getting some. And then our dis triple tune got into firefight like their first run. So the first person to earn a cab in our battalion was Lieutenant Jennifer Winn out there recovering a vehicle and wrecking people. And it was like, get back in the FOB. You know, they're out there fighting. It's like, come on, come on back. It's uh. Yeah. So it was, it was gamey and sporty from moment one. And you, you know how bad it was in terms of the, the casualties and the number of contacts. So two, six, nine armor. Set conditions every day for the success that we saw.

• 1:31:34Speaker 01

  Based on their understanding of the environment and being able to articulate that to us. Um, they lost six soldiers inside Corregidor to indirect fire, killed in action. So the answer to that is, you know, personal protective equipment, wear it all day, every day inside the wire because it's a requirement. And so that's what we did for the entire time we were there and we didn't lose anybody to indirect. Despite taking, you know, over 400 rounds into the FOB while we were there.

• 1:32:07Jocko Willink?

  That's crazy.

• 1:32:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:10Jocko Willink?

  And you showed up there, you're working for General Gronski, Colonel Gronski at the time.

• 1:32:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:15Jocko Willink?

  From the two, two, eight, just outstanding.

• 1:32:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:16Jocko Willink?

  Out of the gate.

• 1:32:17Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. He, um, I've said this many times. Uh, he is the most physically courageous, senior leader that I've ever personally witnessed in combat. Out there walking patrols, out there jumping fences, getting after it, you know, is, are you guys going out? Yeah, we're going out today. Hey, I want to come with you. Okay, sir. Rehearsal's starting in an hour. And he would go through the whole thing. And be out there with Alpha Company, you know, Able doing, you know, patrols. He'd be with, you know, dealer on a patrol. He'd be out there with the gunfighter. On patrol. So he was with gunfighter. When he was doing his rip with General McFarlane.

• 1:32:57Speaker 01

  So they come out, they come out to Corregidor together and, and gunfighter's about to go out. And Gronski goes, hey, I'm going with these guys. And I said,

• 1:33:08Jocko Willink?

  You sure about that?

• 1:33:09Speaker 01

  No, I didn't say anything to him. I said to General McFarlane, I go, these are, we're good. You know, we, we got stuff to talk about. He goes, they're, yeah, we're, we're good. You know, yeah, we don't need to do that. He's like, okay, cool. So we start talking about Eagle's Nest, like we're gonna, we're about, we're on the precipice of conducting that op. And while we're talking, all of hell breaks loose in the blob. And it's like, he goes, woo, that's, that's Charlie Company and, and General Gronski. It's like, he goes, well, what do you think they're dealing? I mean, it's, it's outgoing. It's, I mean, they're, they're setting conditions and, and they're, they're the ones pitching, they're not catching. And so they get back and, you know, everybody's all sauced up, you know, because it just happened.

• 1:33:50Speaker 01

  And Gronski's dudes are like, please don't let him go out with them again. We're six days away from going home. Pleading with me, don't let him go back out. I go, I can't control what he's gonna do. I mean, you guys know him. He, he is gonna be out there with you. No matter what. I mean, just what a good man, a courageous leader, uh, leader of character. And just was a, a fantastic person to work for and to get to know.

• 1:34:17Jocko Willink?

  And not like in a gung ho, I'm gonna run out there and get some, but in like, hey, this is what we're doing. I'm gonna see what's going on out there. I'm just as, as professional as they come.

• 1:34:25Speaker 01

  And I'm not gonna be a burden to you while I'm out there.

• 1:34:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:27Speaker 01

  You know, yeah, with my, you know, 12 dudes and we're moving tactically and we're in your way. So, yeah, he was great. General McFarlane as well.

• 1:34:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:36Speaker 01

  Fantastic.

• 1:34:37Jocko Willink?

  Outstanding.

• 1:34:37Speaker 01

  Boss.

• 1:34:38Jocko Willink?

  Uh, what do you remember when we showed up? So one of the reasons we showed up at Corregidor is because as soon as we got to, um, Western Ramadi and we, I put an overwatch element out where the Marines have been hit up at Firecracker.

• 1:34:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:52Jocko Willink?

  As I'm going to meet General Gronski for the first time, my guys just killed a few IED emplacers. And I walk into General Gronski's office and he goes, are those your guys? And I said, yes, sir. And he goes, I need you over in Eastern Ramadi. They, they go, real problems over in this place. Called them a lob. And I was like, Roger that.

• 1:35:07Speaker 01

  Let's go.

• 1:35:07Jocko Willink?

  Let's go. And that was it. Like he just, you know, we killed some bad guys and he said, there's more bad guys that need killing. And, and so then immediately we were heading over your way. And that's when we first got introduced.

• 1:35:18Speaker 01

  Yep. It was a, it was a good, uh, I thought, welcome and interaction initially. The thing, again, not having worked with SEALs before, that really, and we had, we had special ops folks in there all the time. Uh, conducting missions, you know, tier one soft guys, and we provide security for them. They'd come and give us a brief get after it. We'd be in patrol with them, you know, Rangers would come in, do same thing. Uh, you know, we do out of corona for stuff they were doing, but this is the first time that we've had, you know, someone come in to embed with us. And to be a part of what we're doing as opposed to us supporting an operation that's by some other element. That's a special operations type formation. So when you guys came in, it's like, hey, yeah, we're here to work for you.

• 1:36:02Jocko Willink?

  We're here to support you.

• 1:36:05Speaker 01

  Okay. What can you do? It's like, well, we just did this. And of course we're tracking racetrack. And it's like, yeah, okay. Let's partner up with the scouts. And then, uh, you know, Seth goes, hey, you know, we, we'd like to, you know, again, wear what you guys are wearing. And when we leave the wire, we want to understand what you guys are doing. And go, okay, there, there, there will be rehearsals. Associated with what we're doing. Here's the SOP. Here's how we're gonna operate. And I, I thought the humility displayed by the SEALs really endeared your team, your guys to us right away. Because I, I'd like to think we operated without a lot of ego.

• 1:36:44Jocko Willink?

  You guys were great. You guys were outstanding.

• 1:36:45Speaker 01

  And it was about the work and it was about doing it together the right way. And you guys came in, you know, with the right attitude, with the right skill sets, and you were really able to come in and, and set conditions for success immediately. Because the thing that we always tried to do was to set conditions, usually the night before an operation by seizing key terrain. Following as a part of a route clearance. So SEALs, scouts, snipers would go in with the route clearance and then spider up to these positions of advantage down long axes to be able to provide the overwatch necessary for the operations to go in the next day. And you guys were on it from the first minute and just super teammates to work with.

• 1:37:29Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no, it was awesome. I, I think it was on, when, when Joe Claiborne was on, I was like, the best compliment I've ever gotten in my life was the very first operation patrol that they went on. Stoner and, and some of the guys went out with those guys and the, the MIT team and some Iraqis, whole nine yards to come back, got a big gunfight. Come back and I go with him to your office and he walks and he goes, sir, I want SEALs with me on every patrol I do from here on out. I was like, yo, this is, this is gonna be a good time. And, and Joe and Seth were like two peas in a pod.

• 1:37:59Speaker 01

  They were.

• 1:38:00Jocko Willink?

  They were like, just ready to go, man.

• 1:38:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:02Jocko Willink?

  Ready to go.

• 1:38:03Speaker 01

  And Seth, you know, nothing messes up a good war story like a witness. So he can't refute this. You know, rest in peace, brother. But he told me after a big firefight, he came in, he's all dirty and he goes, I think I missed my calling. I go, really? He goes, I'm a waterman, you know, and all that. And I dig it. You know, I'm a ser, I'm a SEAL, you know, I love that. But this mixing it up, I should have been an infantry company commander. I'm like, you went to the wrong school, man.

• 1:38:30Jocko Willink?

  No doubt.

• 1:38:31Speaker 01

  Is he Naval Academy class of 2000?

• 1:38:33Jocko Willink?

  Um, I want to say 99.

• 1:38:34Speaker 01

  99?

• 1:38:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, 99, yeah. No, he, he definitely, uh, viewed himself more as a soldier than anything else.

• 1:38:42Speaker 01

  That dude could fight.

• 1:38:43Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:38:44Speaker 01

  Oh, man. Had that brow.

• 1:38:46Jocko Willink?

  Yes, he did. That thing deflected bullets, man. It was so big.

• 1:38:52Speaker 01

  Can't keep it under the helmet. But yeah, what a great teammate. Oh, my gosh.

• 1:38:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And those guys, the, the, the initial crew that I sent out there with, with Stoner, um, just a bunch of, just a bunch of studs and.

• 1:39:08Speaker 01

  So I was trying to remember if there was any like discord. If there was ever any moments where, you know, guys are, you know, rubbing up against each other, it's gonna happen. I mean, you're gonna have some kind of friction of some kind over time. The only time I ever saw it, and you know me, I was kinda everywhere, was in the chow hall. And they were talking about casualty care in combat, right? Under fire. And the argument was over the use of quick clot. And it was like, you know, I remember Benji going, you'd never use this. And, and our guys are like, it, it works. He's, oh no, it causes this and that. And they were fighting over, you know, how to stop bleeding in extremis, you know? And that was the argument. I'm like, they're fighting over saving lives? I love this. Let's do it.

• 1:39:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:55Jocko Willink?

  Really awesome start, then straight to a blue on blue.

• 1:39:57Speaker 01

  Oh, man.

• 1:39:59Jocko Willink?

  Which was, which was absolutely freaking horrible.

• 1:40:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:02Jocko Willink?

  You know, we, I debriefed with Gunny Gibson. Uh, with, with Joe, obviously. Um, yeah, I mean, just a, a thousand little, a thousand little things. Like you said earlier, uh, Americans, well, Army, Marine Corps, uh, Iraqis.

• 1:40:20Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:40:21Jocko Willink?

  Enemy.

• 1:40:21Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:40:22Jocko Willink?

  Change of crypto.

• 1:40:24Speaker 01

  Mid team.

• 1:40:24Jocko Willink?

  Mid team. Like it, it's, there's a lot of stuff going on.

• 1:40:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:27Jocko Willink?

  And, um, yeah, a lot, uh, just a terrible situation.

• 1:40:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:32Jocko Willink?

  And that was, you know, again, I won't go through the whole thing again, cause I went through it with Joe, but I remember walking up to your office and, you know, we're coming out of the field and I'm just, you know, just, just absolutely sick and, um, kind of looked at the map. You were like, what happened? And, you know, it's funny, I was talking to some of your guys prior to you showing up here today.

• 1:40:53Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:40:53Jocko Willink?

  And they said, you know, he's always just calm. Never seen him lose his temper. And I'm like, I was like, you know, you might not see him lose his temper about coffee or anything like that, but I can tell you like even in the worst situations, you know, I went to that guy and told him, here's what just went wrong. Here's why we have an Iraqi soldier dead. We've got a few Iraqis wounded. We've got one of my guys wounded. And here's why it happened. This is, this is what went down. And, you know, you looked at it. You were tracking. You said, okay, make sure it doesn't happen again. We got another mission to do right now.

• 1:41:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:24Jocko Willink?

  And that was it. Um, I mean, that wasn't it. There was more to follow, but that was it for that day.

• 1:41:29Speaker 01

  Right. And, you know, from my perspective, you know, my own personal battle rhythm was, um, I would look at these, you know, encounters with insurgents. They operate kind of on the same battle rhythm as college students. So college kids wake up when they can at like noon, party, fight through the night. At some point at about two or three tracer burnout, and then they start all over again, rinse, repeat. So I would sleep from about two or three in the morning until about 10.

• 1:42:06Speaker 01

  Get up, do PT, or if I did PT the night before, you know, that it was plus or minus an hour or two, but I stayed up all night, every night. And so when that, um, when that operation kicked off, I was asleep because it was at seven.

• 1:42:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:22Speaker 01

  And, you know, you know where my little hooch was. It, at, you know, seven 31 or whatever. The Iraqis are supposed to link up with Charlie Company and go, as the first battalion, they're supposed to go together into the Malab. The Iraqis were early. And so they left without Charlie Company, despite doing rehearsals together. You know, doing all that. These guys were the Iraqi Intervention Force, you know, 1-1, the heroes of Al Qais. I mean, they didn't think they needed us, which, okay.

• 1:42:54Speaker 01

  So you remember they went in first and then they cleared west to east instead of east to west. So they started at the limit of advance and that's why the Junji went into the courtyard where the SEALs were. Which is what caused the really blue and green.

• 1:43:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:10Speaker 01

  And that's what kicked everything off.

• 1:43:12Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:43:12Speaker 01

  So the firefight kicks off. Cause now they're in it, you know, they are, they're shooting at whatever, cause they don't know. I hear the commotion. I wake up. Walk into the talk. What's happening? We don't know. Where's Charlie Company? They're still at, you know, checkpoint one, right in front of our FOB. Cause they haven't linked up with the Iraqis yet. You know, they're in contact. So go, mid team's talking to us, telling us, telling us they're in contact. They don't know who it is, but it's guys with helmets and weapons and body armor. Well, we'd seen that before with, you know, AQI with Al Qaeda and Iraq. And so, okay. Joe, get down there, figure out what's going on. Let me know.

• 1:43:55Speaker 01

  He gets down there and we're in it. And that's when Gunny Gibson got wounded. So, you know, dudes are throwing grenades, dudes are, you know, 50 cal on the roof on you guys to go get the Junji. Because I get back, hey, from Joe, there's a guy who's down and he was taken. They took him, but we can see him. He's in the courtyard. Cause they were elevated. They were in a building across the street from you guys. We can see him. He's in the courtyard. So I told Joe, go get him.

• 1:44:28Speaker 01

  And he goes, we don't know if it's an American or Iraqi. I said, it doesn't matter. Go get him. And so they suppressed and combat camera was with them. So they suppressed the SEALs to get the guy. And so it was, it was, you know, two leaders from Charlie Company and then a sergeant who'd already been wounded twice. And that's why he's driving for his first arm. He's in there, in the stack, they go get the guy and bring him out. And then I got the heavy QRF.

• 1:44:56Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:44:57Speaker 01

  And I go, go down there and put it down. The dudes in this building right here are the problem. Bring the tank down there, lower the barrel. Put it down.

• 1:45:09Jocko Willink?

  And, and by the way, I was with Joe.

• 1:45:12Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:45:12Jocko Willink?

  And when that heavy QRF got called and I said, hey, we're, let's go.

• 1:45:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:45:16Jocko Willink?

  I said, my guys are somewhere in there.

• 1:45:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and so then.

• 1:45:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:20Speaker 01

  So, um, the, the heavy QRF, uh, the company commander for Animal Company was that he was in that section. So when he went down there and he saw what was going on, cause remember the SEALs had displaced. So we thought they were across the street to the north. But in fact, crypto change, no comms, they're on the south side of the intersection, beyond the limit of advance.

• 1:45:48Jocko Willink?

  One house.

• 1:45:49Speaker 01

  One house beyond. And so he gets down there and he goes, hey, those are our guys in both locations. And then somebody else ceasefire. And so we'd been shooting each other for 15 minutes at that point. So it's a miracle that no one else was killed.

• 1:46:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:05Speaker 01

  Um, we had some guys wounded, obviously Gunny lost a leg.

• 1:46:09Jocko Willink?

  Um, Gunny lost a leg later. He was okay.

• 1:46:11Speaker 01

  Oh, I thought it was on that. Okay.

• 1:46:13Jocko Willink?

  He also later.

• 1:46:14Speaker 01

  Well, thanks for that. But, um, but yeah, there was, there's a lot, uh, in a very short period of time, but then, you know, everybody come on back. So, I mean, the way I remember it is we all looked at a map as people arrived back in here and it's like, okay.

• 1:46:31Speaker 01

  We got more to do. You know, let's clean this up. Cause we gotta work up and go again.

• 1:46:38Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 1:46:38Speaker 01

  So it was, again, I think the trust really in two areas, because you know, of course there, there's folks at higher echelons are like, hey, you know, this is bad. You know, we gotta now, you know, obviously we're gonna investigate. That's no big deal because everybody's telling the truth. Cause that's the first answer, you know, hey, who was where, when and did what? And it was all, everybody had a good understanding of what had just happened and were truthful about everything. And it's like, hey, sometimes this happens. It's the fog of war. It's a good shoot with a bad result because, you know, again, things happen. He was in the wrong place. But then the other part of the trust equation that came in that I thought was super important

• 1:47:22Speaker 01

  was it, and I don't know if you even remember this, but the SEAL, the, the kids from Delta Platoon

• 1:47:29Speaker 01

  pulled all their personal money and gave it to the family of the soldier that was killed. So the Iraqi Army was moved so much that the SEALs got the seats of honor at his memorial service. They asked me to speak, Stone spoke. Um, so that's what pulled us together with them was, you know, that moment in crisis where character-based leadership, doing the right thing, trusting that, you know, because everybody understands the level of violence here, that bad things are gonna happen to good people and we just have to do what we can to try to get this, make this right. And they did. And it, it, I think forced bonds that, you know, really I thought made the success of all the things that happened after that happen.

• 1:48:13Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no doubt. It was, um, I mean, it's such an awful thing because these Iraqi soldiers, you know, they're, not only they're facing combat when they're, when they're in combat, they take leave, they go home and there, there's people getting assassinated. There's soldiers, you know, army, Iraqi army people getting assassinated. Their, their families are getting harassed. It's just an awful, awful existence for them.

• 1:48:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:48:35Jocko Willink?

  And then to have this, uh, soldier get killed out there was, was terrible. And I mean, obviously my guys just felt absolutely horrible about it.

• 1:48:43Speaker 01

  But you remember when, um, they ran out of money? Their government was struggling to feed the Iraqi soldiers and yeah, okay. We'll feed them.

• 1:48:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:54Speaker 01

  And it's like, whoa, different color of money. You shouldn't be doing that. And I, and I just, I said, hey, you know, let me talk to the, the lawyers. And what we laid out was this is a risk to us. You know, we got, you know, Iraqi soldiers passing out on their weapons because they're on a mission because they're hungry. I mean, we, that's a risk to our force. So they figured out how to, you know, get some, you know, provision for us to be able to feed them legally. Uh, so we, we brought their cooks into our dining facility, had them prepare the meals. Um, really, really helpful because again, without them, you know, it's just us, right?

• 1:49:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah. No, there's so much of that stuff happening with mentorship and like, even like, I would, when I got back, I'm explaining to the special operations guys, what are you guys going out in the daytime, you know? And I said, well, well, our primary mission from the siege of Sotaf was to train and fight company and platoon-sized elements of Iraqi soldiers. They don't have lasers for their weapons. They don't have night vision. And by the way, they don't have flashlights.

• 1:49:55Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:49:55Jocko Willink?

  And so we would gather flashlights and give one flashlight per fire team so that they could see when we do the raid or something at night. But yeah, cause they're totally, you know, terribly equipped in the whole nine yards. Um, and they're out there, you know, doing their best.

• 1:50:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:09Jocko Willink?

  So, but I think you're right. That did, um, for us, you know, uh, well, we definitely were bonded in our, our, you know, we, we knew that whatever we could do to help you guys, we knew number one, you'd be there to help us no matter what happened. I mean, that was clear. And, you know, you, you had our back and that meant so much for us in that, in that deployment. And you guys, by the time we showed up there, you guys had already taken, you guys already lost like five or five guys, I think at that point.

• 1:50:39Speaker 01

  We had.

• 1:50:40Jocko Willink?

  And that's, so we know what we're getting into.

• 1:50:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:44Jocko Willink?

  And it was so hard to explain to other people, um, how many enemy was there? And it was interesting talking to General McFarland, you know, in the special operations side, you know, I'm getting asked like, how are you killing all these, you know, how are you killing all these guys? And General McFarland said, the MEF is going, how are you killing all these guys? And he said, come on out and look. That's one of the, one of the best things I learned from you guys, from, from Dave Womack.

• 1:51:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:08Jocko Willink?

  Was come investigate.

• 1:51:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:09Jocko Willink?

  Like, hey, you want to investigate what's going on? Come on out here and investigate. You can come, we come on patrol with us, see what we're doing, see who we're shooting. Please come investigate. You want to see what's going on here? We want you to see what's going on here. You know, they didn't oftentimes want to come out to where the rubber meets the road.

• 1:51:26Speaker 01

  And if they did, they were just shocked by it. So I had a, I had an encounter, this is before you guys arrived, where, you know, the lawyers at two MEF were, you know, basically saying, hey, you know, there's no way that you guys are, you know, that none of these, this shoot can't be legit, kind of thing. And it's like, well, you shot a guy on a tractor, is his point. And I go, they even asked where the tractor was. He goes, no, he's on a tractor. That's because he doesn't have a car or a bike, or that's what he stole, or that's what he had. He was, this guy had the mask on, had an RPG in his lap and AK across his back, and he was moving to the fight.

• 1:52:09Speaker 01

  I mean, he was inside the, inside the court on when he was shot. It was, it was like, are you kidding me? And it's like, well, it just doesn't look right. I said, well, come on down. Every Marine and infantryman, come on, get some. He's like, I'm not afraid. I don't think you are either. Just, you need to know that this is different than what you're seeing. And so it was a good, good eye opener. He came down.

• 1:52:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's great.

• 1:52:33Speaker 01

  To his credit.

• 1:52:34Jocko Willink?

  There is, there is also something that people don't understand is like, when a civilian got hurt, if we smashed open a wall, like we'd have to go down and repair it, we'd give them money, the whole nine yards. There was, there was so much interaction between the civilian populace and us, and the Iraqi soldiers, and the interpreters, and the, the imams, and the government, the actual Iraqi government that's there in Ramadi. Like, if you killed, like civilians got killed, I'm not saying that everything was perfect because there was times where, where civilians got killed, got caught in the crossfire, you know, they got murdered all the time by the insurgents themselves. But to think that you could be down there indiscriminately shooting people was like,

• 1:53:19Jocko Willink?

  it wasn't possible.

• 1:53:20Speaker 01

  It, it, it takes away from the credibility of, of what you're doing. Because now, they won't work with you. The Iraqi soldiers won't work with you, the Iraqi public won't work with you, the sheiks won't work with you, the government won't work with you because they don't trust you to, to do things the right way. I mean, to have that approach to, you know, again, it's a tough, tough environment, but have an approach that, you know, shows some due diligence is associated with your ability to discriminate in this process. And so, I mean, Jocko, you remember, there are moments where, you know, the, the tactics, techniques and procedures by, you know, the insurgents were such that it just, it made no sense, it was beyond the pale that they would do certain things.

• 1:54:05Speaker 01

  Why would you use a school bus in an attack? You know, why would you use, why would you dress up like a dog and try to put in an IED? You know, it's because Americans tend to like dogs, so they won't shoot me. Come on, man. We can tell it's not a real dog. You know, and what you're, that bag of rice that the dog is dragging is probably not, you know, Alpo. Yeah. So come on, man. So there was some of that, but for the most part, I think that what we're supposed to be doing is gaining that trust of the people. And the only way you do that is by actually doing things that matter to improve their quality of life. One way of doing that is making it more safe and secure.

• 1:54:49Speaker 01

  The only way you can do that is by being present and keeping the enemy out of their, they want to have schools that are safe. They want to be able to have markets open and make some money. They want to be able to feed their families appropriately. So we were doing whatever we could to try to make that happen.

• 1:55:05Jocko Willink?

  Yep. And the civil affairs projects, the med caps, giving away medicine, taking care of the kids, giving people fuel for their generators, like all that stuff. You're in their neighborhood every day.

• 1:55:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:55:16Jocko Willink?

  Like you just, you, this is what it is. You know, it's like the, the policing in America. You've got a problem area, you need to move in there and have a permanent presence there. And if your permanent presence is treating everyone terribly, like it ain't going to work. So it was really, uh, just incredible to see Americans, American service, men and women be able to do that.

• 1:55:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:55:39Jocko Willink?

  You know, to be out there, risk their lives, watch their friends get wounded, watch their friends get killed, and still be able to say, okay, here's where it stops.

• 1:55:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:55:47Jocko Willink?

  And to see everyone do that on a daily basis was a real testament to the American fighting men and women, for sure.

• 1:55:55Speaker 01

  And for my team, Charlie Company in the Malab, Alpha Company, uh, operating out of OP Hotel, and then the industrial area, out of combat outposts. Our main effort, Bravo Company, operating out of Trotter, keeping the MSR open and all the things that went with that. Man, you got to wait your main effort. Then Delta Company, dealer having responsibility across the entirety of the space, you know, having War Eagle, support everything that we're doing. And then every attachment, I mean, the bravery, the, the want to on every mission, you know, just the accountability that they all had to one another. I mean, the closeness, the bond of all that.

• 1:56:38Speaker 01

  And everybody who was attached, the SEAL platoon, the engineers, um, that were doing, you know, a bunch of police work for us, uh, out of the PA Guard, because it was a bunch of prison guards and cops, and their platoon leader was a chemist. So they've got like this IED museum that they built, and I'm like, oh no, man. This is, this must go. It's like, oh, sir, but we want to show you this. Uh-uh, no, let's get EOD in here, and not you guys, the real ones, and do this. So, yeah, just animal company, you know, and then after that, you know, the kids that came from, uh, Charlie 237, um, you know, there originally were Crusaders, but they

• 1:57:22Speaker 01

  had to change their call sign, obviously, for, you know, the reasons we all know, but, you know, Tim and his guys were phenomenal. The guys from 1600 that were down at Eagles Nest were awesome. Just that whole crew, the laundry and bath kids were great. Seabees, oh my gosh, you know, out there under fire, building cops in a box, you know? It was, it was a, it was the kind of, you know, togetherness, brotherhood, sisterhood, I mean, it literally is the Band of Brothers.

• 1:57:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no doubt about it. Um, and, and, you know, just every day that you rolled out, it was like, here's a chance you're going to die.

• 1:58:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:58:04Jocko Willink?

  I mean, there's, there's a, there is a solid chance you're going to die. You roll down Farouk Way, or Route Michigan, or Sunset, like, oh yeah, you hit a triple stack IED.

• 1:58:14Speaker 01

  Easy street.

• 1:58:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, easy street, like it's, that's it. And, and everybody that leaves that wire, 100% knows that. There's no doubt about it.

• 1:58:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:58:23Jocko Willink?

  And yet, every single day, they'd get their gear on and go. Every single day.

• 1:58:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:58:29Jocko Willink?

  Um, when you taking casualties, uh, losing guys, what, from a, from a leadership perspective, lessons learned? What, what, what did you, what, what do you have to pass on? I know for me, uh, SEALs hadn't lost anyone in Iraq until I was there, and there weren't, there weren't many, there weren't many SEAL leaders that had lost guys in combat. I mean, there was very, very few. And, you know, we had, of course, we have the, the administrative book to follow, here's the, you know, here's the alert, here's what you've got to do, and shut down these systems, and pass this word, and go through this legal thing, and, but as far as you, oh yeah, and

• 1:59:10Jocko Willink?

  by the way, on top of all that, you got 40 guys that just lost one of their bros. And by the way, there's still insurgents out there fighting, and there's soldiers and Marines that are counting on you guys to do your job, regardless of what happens. So here's where we're at. What did you learn?

• 1:59:27Speaker 01

  Unfortunately, um, we had, we had some experience with it before we deployed, because they staggered the deployments of the four brigades from the 101st. So the other three brigades were taking casualties before we left. So casualty notification, um, doing memorial services, uh, doing remembrances at division. We, we had done some of that before we deployed. So again, it, you know, just, you know, steals your resolve for the mission ahead. We, we lost Specialist Prince K. Tawia in Baghdad.

• 2:00:09Speaker 01

  He was on the personal security detail for the Brigade CSM, and he was killed relatively early, before the new year. And we, we went to Baghdad and we were a part of his memorial service, the leadership team from, from 1506, even though he was detached. But we didn't lose a soldier in Ramadi until March. So arrived in November, we didn't lose anybody for the first almost five months. And then the same night, we lost, we lost Marco Silva and Corey Dan. And that was on Great White, which you talked to Joe about. Just the, the, the pieces and parts of, you know, how you deal with tragedy and how you

• 2:00:53Speaker 01

  deal with, you know, the human dynamics associated with the loss of a brother or sister. It really says a lot about the leadership of the organization and how prepared you are for those moments, because again, you have to continue to fight. You can't just stop, mourn, you know, hey, we're done here, let's stack arms and, and call it a day. And I, and I think some of that for me, you know, as an officer growing up, you know, in the formation, really, I, I go back to JRTC. There was a situation in training when I was a major, where we had two soldiers get run over by an M1 tank in, in a, in part of the training exercise. And, and so it was, I mean, it was dreadful. And this is post, this is after 9/11.

• 2:01:36Speaker 01

  So it's, you know, it's one of these things, this unit is, is deployed to combat, and they just lost two of their brothers in, in a training accident that is preventable. I mean, it's, it was just the fog of war, you know, op force calling for fire, tanks are in the breach, so you want the dismounted infantry and the armor force to arrive at the decisive point together, so that they can, you know, again, bring overwhelming firepower against the enemy. But in this case, took fire, soldiers were laying on the ground and a tank ran over them. So, you know, we had to conduct a casualty evacuation, stop the exercise, and then the leadership team came together. So it was the commander ops group, who's a colonel, with his sergeant major, and then

• 2:02:21Speaker 01

  the brigade commander with his command star major, and me. And so we're, we're in a huddle, talking about what to do next. Like, should we continue? It's the last day of the exercise. Should we continue to get to the training objectives of this seizure of this large mount facility, or should we just call it? Because the other, the other factor is that one of the young men who was killed had a brother in the unit, like literally, his other, he had a sibling. So what do we do? So the decision was to pause, honor, you know, the memory of these two fallen comrades, but then to start again.

• 2:03:01Speaker 01

  Because in combat, there isn't a pause, and the lesson can't be, if somebody gets hurt, we stop, or if somebody gets killed, we stop. We have to continue to fight through. So I'm, in my head, that was the right course, right course of action at the time, and that's the lessons we need to train as we go forward. So we work through that in training. It's not the same as losing a teammate in combat, but you have to continue to fight. Otherwise, you don't have the area secured to be able to do the things you need to do to finish the job. So for me, that night, when we lost Sergeant Silva, it was, the platoon from, 3rd Platoon Charlie Company got ambushed. That's, that's basically what happened.

• 2:03:45Speaker 01

  Complex attack, they fought through, seized a foothold, started to, you know, fight back against, you know, the element that was targeting them. Silva was down in a kill zone, young man by the name of Alvarez is trying to move him, like came from a position of, you know, cover and concealment to go back into the kill zone to try to get Sergeant Silva. He's carrying him, he's wounded, can still evacuate himself, doesn't, and then decides to drape his body over Silva because he's still being targeted. At which time, another soldier, his battle buddy, young man by the name of Michael Pushkin, goes and gets both of them.

• 2:04:24Speaker 01

  So I asked Alvarez, what made you go back and get Sergeant Silva? And he said, Silva would have come back for me. I had to go and get him. I said, okay, now you're wounded. Why did you not evacuate yourself again, get help, you know, do something else? Why'd you drape your body over him? He said, again, Silva would have done the same for me. I could not leave a fallen comrade. I said, plus, I knew that Pushkin would come for me. And he did. That's the lesson.

• 2:05:07Speaker 01

  It's, it's for your brothers and sisters, no matter how grave the consequences are. You, you do what's necessary to fight through it. And unfortunately, we lost Sergeant Silva that day. But man, talk about, you know, being proud of the actions of everybody involved to try to, you know, save the life of a fallen comrade at the risk of your own life, in a situation where it is uncertain, it is undetermined, but you gotta try to turn the tide. And so, again, it's, you know, one of those situations where, of course, we lose Corey Dan not an hour later.

• 2:05:46Speaker 01

  And now I'm faced with a situation that you faced as well. Whereas, you know, Tawia was killed, but he was with our teammates in Baghdad. This is the first time I've ever lost a soldier under my command directly. So training in, you know, administrative, on leave, you know, personal time, or in combat, and we've just lost two in the span of, you know, a pretty short period of time. So again, the voice that your soldiers hear in a moment of crisis, or Marines, or SEALs hears, is yours. You know, we have to fight through, we have to do this the right way.

• 2:06:26Speaker 01

  There's only one way to do this, and that's with, you know, our efforts to choose the harder right over the easier wrong at every moment. We have to be the leaders of character in that moment of crisis that our brothers and sisters need. And it starts early. It goes back to the first stories we were talking about, where you have to decide in a moment, you know, take their company from your fallen out company commander, or, you know, or jump back in the line, encourage them and jump back in the line. So that's, that's where it starts. And that's, that was really, I think, what saw us through a lot of dark times during the Battle of Ramadi.

• 2:07:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the, the idea for me in the 90s, you know, we didn't, we didn't think of like, we thought of doing missions as you're gonna go do one mission. You know, we were always training for the one big mission that was gonna happen. But to be in this new environment where it's like, oh no, it's sustained combat operations, and you're gonna run out of ammunition, you're gonna, you know, you're gonna need supplies, you're gonna run out of batteries, like all these things that you didn't really think of before in the 90s. We never thought about that.

• 2:07:35Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:07:36Jocko Willink?

  Never thought about that at all. And we certainly didn't think about, hey, if you lose a guy, we, we finish the tactical situation. Oh yeah, you fight through the problem, you get him, but then what?

• 2:07:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:07:46Jocko Willink?

  What about tomorrow morning?

• 2:07:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:07:48Jocko Willink?

  Do, are we standing down? Because no, we're not standing down. And, and, and the enemy's gonna continue to fight. And that is, you know, one of the things that is, is so hard to do, is, guys, like, we're gonna put our gear back on.

• 2:08:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:08:04Jocko Willink?

  You know, and that's kind of what I told my guys. I said, I don't know what to tell you guys. The only thing I know how to do is work.

• 2:08:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:08:10Jocko Willink?

  And that's what we're gonna do. Put our gear back on and go to work.

• 2:08:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. Another, just great example of that is when Dealer Company had, they were escorting a clearance mission, and they had IED go off and kill Greg Rogers, platoon sergeant. You know, that started that chain of events with the tank catching on fire from the subsurface IED, and, you know, we ended up in the Malab for over 36 hours fighting all through the night. And in the process of Sergeant Rogers being killed, you know, his platoon conducted the evacuation to combat outpost, and then they, you know, were instructed, as you normally

• 2:08:54Speaker 01

  would, hey, you know, go back to your company, the casualty care team will be over here to debrief, to make sure that everybody's, you know, we can do the best we can to take care of everybody on the, you know, loss of a fallen comrade. So they did that, and then platoon leader comes across the street to talk, and he goes, hey, sir, we need to get back in. And I said, you ain't going back in. You just lost your platoon sergeant. You're, no, we're not doing that. And he goes, we have to. The entire battalion and all the enablers are deployed right now into this fight. We've got three vehicles, we're focused on doing this the right way, we'll do exactly what you want us to do on this.

• 2:09:38Speaker 01

  We'll grieve later, but we need to be back out there right now, because the combat power that we're You know, lose from us not being there is not something I think that I'm comfortable with as a platoon leader, knowing that I can help and we'll do it the right way, Ray Kurhi way. So I said, all right, I trust you. Let's go. And they did. It was unbelievable. But again, you know, in the moment where you've, you know, just lost, you know, your platoon sergeant. To have the wherewithal to go, you know what, not only am I okay with, you know, having a discussion with my, you know, with my mates about, hey, are we ready to go do this, but I'm going to go across the street and tell the tank commander.

• 2:10:14Speaker 01

  You need me. So we're going. And he was right. I mean, they went out and they did everything the right way. I'm just super proud of, you know, those soldiers at that moment. And really, you know, period.

• 2:10:29Speaker 01

  Stuff you can't teach in situ, right? It's stuff that they have to know.

• 2:10:33Jocko Willink?

  Just outstanding.

• 2:10:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:10:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you know, it's, it's always interesting to the, that idea and what you have to do. And, you know, I had Jason Kedzer on, on here, you know, he was like a 50 cal gun or. You know, and here's his perspective of what it was like losing guys and your perspective, you know, and it was, it was, um, you know, for, for General McFarland, you know, talking to him about it. Man, you know, I, I think, you know, I lost three guys in Ramadi. He lost 94 guys in Ramadi, you know, and he feels every single one of those guys.

• 2:11:08Speaker 01

  And at that level, it's harder, I think, because you're disconnected from the people. And unless you knew them personally, like, obviously, he knew Travis Patrick Quinn, you know, he knew Megan. I mean, he, he knew them. But, you know, the kids that are out there just getting after it and, you know, end up losing, losing their lives in the fight. I mean, you don't know, as a battalion commander, you should know everybody. So that was really my, my biggest personal fear was that I would have to conduct a memorial service for a soldier that I didn't know.

• 2:11:42Speaker 01

  Or a SEAL that I didn't know, uh, or a Marine that I didn't know, even though it's in my FOB and in my space and I should know everybody because of infantry battalion's about a little over 900 people. And because I was the first one, everybody assigned to that battalion, I know them because I welcomed them all in and I walked around while they were at ranges before the deployment. You know, at PT, in the chow hall, once we deployed, just walking through the tents, in the gym, in the chow hall, in the TAC, in the day room, in the motor pool.

• 2:12:21Speaker 01

  Just, you know, trying to every day, sit with a different group of kids. Um, I had, you know, one of my, one of my colleagues laughing, he was, um, making a comment about, he's from Mississippi and I told him that we had, uh, we had the CB company from Mississippi. And so you get to know all those kids and there were a couple of CBs who were in the chow line. And they had just arrived and one of the kids goes, hey, man, they got mayonnaise.

• 2:12:49Speaker 01

  Get a couple of those packets, take them back, make some sandwiches later. And I said, where are you from? And he goes, sir, we're from Mississippi. I'm like, mayonnaise sandwiches. We can do better than that. Some peanut butter jelly, you know, something, hot sauce. No, mayonnaise. I was like, all right. Dudes are living hard out here, man. And mayonnaise is a delicacy.

• 2:13:14Speaker 01

  But yeah, you had to get to know them all. You had to, had to be out with them on missions, talking to them, getting comfortable, you know, with them and their environment. So when I'd go out on a mission. A lot of times I'd just go to the rehearsal, get in a truck and just go. So I can remember being in a clearance with Charlie Company. And it's, somebody yells, hey, get me another body in here because they needed, you know, another dude to help search. Well, I'm there. So I pull security on the people that, you know, that we needed to hold in the space until we were done. And I said, hey, you go, I got it. And so I'm standing there. Then, you know, NCO goes, hey, who'd you leave on the dudes? He goes, uh, Colonel Clark's out there.

• 2:13:58Speaker 01

  What? Comes out, he goes, sir, I go, hey, I showed up with a weapon. I'm working. It's okay. And he goes, sir, we can't have, I go, I also have, you know, authority to drop gamblers. So it's like a support by fire position right here with you. So hang in there, we'll be fine. But it's that kind of, you know, those interactions, they go back, they tell the stories. It's, it's, I mean, it's, it's what we're supposed to do. And back to your original question, you have to know everybody at that level. That's the last time you'll be able to do it. So why waste that time? You know, why be inauthentic? You know, why not be the leader you're supposed to be for this organization where everybody is in it with you?

• 2:14:36Jocko Willink?

  I remember, uh, I came over to talk to you about, I think we were doing some kind of a mission or something, um, was getting ginned up. This was maybe halfway through deployment. But I was sitting outside your office, uh, outside the TAC there and you were in there with another soldier and the soldier, you know, the soldier walked out. And I was waiting for him to get done. He walked out and I walked in and, you know, I said, he said, um, that guy's getting out of the army. And I said, oh.

• 2:15:04Jocko Willink?

  He said, you, you said, you know what I tell people when they're going to get out of the army, when they're leaving? I said, we're on deployment, you know, we got five more months left of this deployment. He goes, you know what I tell them? You said to me, you know what I tell them? And I said, no, sir. He said, I tell them thank you. And I, when I was at SEAL Team One back in the day, if you decided you were going to get out of the Navy, you were called the quitter. You were put on gate guard, like it was completely ostracized from the team. And man, when, as soon as you said that word, like a whole picture, I knew exactly what you were doing. I said, that is brilliant. You know, you said, I tell these guys, thank you for your service. Thank you for what you did. And we wish you the best of luck.

• 2:15:47Jocko Willink?

  And, and then you said, and you know, 75% of the time they're knocking on my door like two hours later, like I want to stay.

• 2:15:54Speaker 01

  Hey, big sir, I've had a change of heart.

• 2:15:57Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. I mean that, but that's, that's what it is, you know, like, okay, what, how can I really help this person? See, I work with businesses now and someone will say, you know, I got this guy. And he's got some other opportunities, he's going to leave my company, he got this other opportunity. What, you know, where, where, how do I get him to stay? And I go, wish him the best of luck. Tell him you'll, you'll, you'll write him the best letter of recommendation. Tell him you'll support him. If you have any questions when you get over there in the new job and you're, something causes you a problem, give me a call, I'll be here.

• 2:16:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:16:24Jocko Willink?

  That's what you do.

• 2:16:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. As opposed to like, I'm going to burn this guy and cut their bonus and the whole nine yards. Uh, so that's, that's, you know, just another example of leadership where I said, oh, I mean, here you are in the middle of a deployment. You got guys that are leaving and guys that have a lot of knowledge, a lot of experience and they're going to leave. What do you tell them? I tell them, thank you. Yeah. I, I went over some, you know, I have green books that I've had, you know, since I was a lieutenant. So drives my wife crazy because that can't throw any of that stuff away. Some, this goes, there's nothing good in most of these. Well, I have all of them by, you know, chronological order. So I pulled all the books from the deployment. And some of it's like, it's not quite a journal, but I'll, I'll take little notes in there, say, on this day, this happened, this sort of thing.

• 2:17:09Speaker 01

  But the thing that's constant is these little boxes and they all have people's names next to them. And it's all the people that I rate or seniorate. And it's, it's me doing performance counseling in combat. And I'm thinking to myself,

• 2:17:25Speaker 01

  I don't remember any of that, but it did, that's, those were those conversations where I'm sitting down with platoon sergeants, with platoon leaders, with company commanders. And we're having conversations about what happens after this and where do you plan to go with things? And how do I assess your potential? And continuing to have a developmental conversation with them, even though we're in the midst of, you know, the throes of a, a pretty horrific combat situation. But to continue to invest in the leader development of the folks around you. But I'd, I'd almost forgotten that I'd done that. But part of the, so I'm like, you know, that's 20 years ago. So I'm like, man,

• 2:18:04Speaker 01

  that guy, he was a pretty good battalion commander. Thinking, thinking I should probably do better now with that. But the, um, the, the lesson though is, is, is what you said. It's that, you know, less than 1% of our US population will serve in uniform.

• 2:18:25Speaker 01

  So for those who decide to wear the cloth of the nation, especially in that situation where they have deployed to combat. Like, how do you not take a few minutes if they've decided, you know what, this has been great, but I'm going to go off and serve in other ways after this, my community, my family, you know, whatever. Then, hey, man, thanks. I appreciate the fact that you made the decision to, to serve, you know, in this organization with us, full stop.

• 2:18:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, especially in that environment. Um, I was, I had a Colonel Tovo, who's the CGSO of commander. And, you know, with all the stuff that was happening in Ramadi, he came down, we gave him a briefing and one, one part of the briefing, I'm, I'm briefing him. And as I'm briefing him, I said, sir, you know, this, I've got this element that's out in Eastern Ramadi, that Corregidor. There's seven guys out there and I said, they have been, in the last 23 straight operations, they've been in contact with the enemy 23 straight times. And I'm, I did not plan this, Colonel Tovo, wherever you may be, literally as I'm saying that, my tactical operations center chief comes walking in. Hey, sir, just to let you know, we got troops in contact out in Ramadi, uh, out in Corregidor.

• 2:19:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:19:39Jocko Willink?

  I said, Roger that. I looked at Colonel Tovo, I said, make that 24 straight.

• 2:19:42Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:19:43Jocko Willink?

  Uh, and that being said, and being in Ramadi, you know, as a, as a leader, you know, and I knew that as time goes on, like you can only get lucky so many days in a row.

• 2:20:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:20:00Jocko Willink?

  So many days in a row. And eventually it's going to catch up with you. And it, you know, on the, on the west side of Ramadi, it caught us up with us on August 2nd. We had Mark Lee get killed. We had Ryan Jobe get severely wounded, ended up dying of wounds. And then on September 29th, for our guys out in Craigador, um, we lost Mikey.

• 2:20:23Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:20:24Jocko Willink?

  And, you know, we were, um, it was pretty normal, kind of a, you know, normal sounding day. I'm listening to the radio. I'm in the talk. I'm hearing the calls getting made. The guys are in contact, which literally at this point, you know, you, it's just another day in Ramadi. Um, and then, you know, the call for fire support comes in, call for QRF comes in. Um, I, I ended up telling the passing where, what actual building the guys were in. Uh, they get extracted and then maybe 15, 20 minutes later, I got a call from you in the talk.

• 2:21:01Jocko Willink?

  Um, and, you know, you said, uh, you said Benny's going to be okay. You said Doug's wounded. Mike's wounded. And then you said, Mikey, um, they're doing CPR on Mike. I don't think he's going to make it. And, you know, that was again, one of those times where, um, first of all, you know, there's, it's, it's the absolute most wretched thing to hear. And, you know, we, we all know Mikey is, is as good as they come, um, a saint of a human being,

• 2:21:42Jocko Willink?

  literally. And knowing that the bond that we already had from six months of hard fighting was now eternal.

• 2:21:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:21:57Jocko Willink?

  Um,

• 2:22:01Jocko Willink?

  what else, what else do you remember about that day? Um, with the exception of one more thing I'm going to say, um, I was talking to Jimmy May, who was on the rooftop, or he wasn't on the rooftop. He came, he moved to the rooftop with Seth. And Buddy carried out Mikey and jumped in the, I think it was a 113, jumped in the 113.

• 2:22:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:22:29Jocko Willink?

  And he said, when the door of the 113 opened up, as the door, as the, as the ramp was dropping down, he's looking up and you're the first face that he saw. And, you know, that meant so much to him, knowing that you as a battalion commander was right there to receive our guys.

• 2:22:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:22:53Jocko Willink?

  Means everything.

• 2:22:55Speaker 01

  It, it was, um, it's a brotherhood, still is. The, the eternal bond, uh, which, you know, ironically began on the feast of St. Michael. Um, I mean, Mikey was, um, he was effervescent, you know, just life oozed from him. So everybody who came in contact with him, knew him, appreciated him. He had this kind of cool. It, it's, you know exactly what I'm talking about.

• 2:23:31Jocko Willink?

  That's the word, that's the word that sums it up right there. Cool.

• 2:23:34Speaker 01

  It's the photo of him during BUDS, which the famous photo, I swear, and I saw it, it was on the ship. I just, I broke down because I'm like, that, that's him. And everybody's straining. It's like, you know, the life is ending for everybody. And Mikey's like, like he, like he knew the cameraman was there and he was kind of like, you know what? I'm not screaming at the end of the roller coaster like everybody else. Just so cool. But man, that was gut wrenching for so many reasons. One, because it was, up until that point, it was an easy day.

• 2:24:14Speaker 01

  I mean, it was beautiful, it was sunny. Um, you know, it was, it was, and it was towards the end of the deployment, which you can't get, you know, complacent and we didn't. But guys were still plunging in every day. Um, you know, just like you're supposed to. And, and it's, it's kind of one of those where you, you grow up as a leader, knowing where you're supposed to be. So, and it starts, it starts early. I mean, it's, you, as a battalion commander, I used to go with, during PT every morning, I'd go with whoever had the best plan or looked like they were going to have the most opportunity to fail. Just because I wanted to be there. You kind of know where to be.

• 2:24:59Speaker 01

  If some, you know, something that tells you to check the aid station in the morning during PT. Or, hey, you know, this was a bad contact. And you know, from the way we, we would do this. Um, if we were in contact, then I would stay in the jock or the talk. Um, because we have to continue to apply combat power to whatever this is. But for that particular contact, once we got the 113s on station, I went to combat outpost. So, you know, as the geography is, I had to walk across Michigan to get over there to see. Because they couldn't give me a good understanding of what was going on with Mikey. It was,

• 2:25:41Speaker 01

  you know, that, it was like you described, it was bad. Uh, but he, they were still working on him. I mean, they were trying to save him. So nobody wanted to say he was gone. Um, and nobody, obviously, you know, no one wanted that outcome, uh, any, any less than, you know, the medics who were giving it everything. And so I, I talked to the docs, um, after we got him loaded up to go to TQ and they were like, yeah, we, we did everything we could. And, and so knowing that, you know, he won, you know, love hath, you know, God hath no greater love than those who would, you know, sacrifice themselves for their brothers, you know?

• 2:26:25Speaker 01

  John 15 13 applies. Um, it was a, it was a horrible day. And Mikey is the, he's the touchstone for us. Um, in a way that, you know, will all hold in our hearts forever. Um, and it's everything that's happened since then for all of us, uh, to keep us all together and to keep us tight. And you saw it, uh, at Fort Bliss, at the memorial, you saw it at the commission and in the USS Mikey Mansour, you saw it at the White House, uh, with all of us that were there when his family was presented the Medal of Honor. You saw it at the Pentagon when he was inducted

• 2:27:08Speaker 01

  in the Hall of Heroes. It's every instance that we have to come together. Um, it's a celebration of Mikey and of his service and how he touched us all in a way that, um, we're just better. We're just better.

• 2:27:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:27:26Speaker 01

  For him.

• 2:27:27Jocko Willink?

  No, no doubt, no doubt about that. Definitely a, uh, model for all of us to strive toward, uh, the frogman on the high ground. It's, we kind of missed that whole frogman thing.

• 2:27:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 2:27:40Jocko Willink?

  Cause I, I was, I think it was the very first patrol the guys went out on and we, I'm in the talk with you.

• 2:27:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:27:47Jocko Willink?

  And our guys come up on the radio with the frogman on the roof and you kind of looked at me. Well, like, what's, and then you hear it again, frogman on the roof, frogman on the roof.

• 2:27:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:27:56Jocko Willink?

  And, uh, and we had the call sign, we didn't have the call sign frogman. The guys that took our place picked up the, they, they decided to use this call sign frogman, which was a good call.

• 2:28:05Speaker 01

  Good.

• 2:28:06Jocko Willink?

  But, um, yeah, every time I'd see you, every time I'd come over to Craigador, you'd see me. Or every time you'd come over to Camp Ramadi to me, go frogman.

• 2:28:13Speaker 01

  Frogman. How we doing?

• 2:28:16Jocko Willink?

  And now, Mikey Mansour is our eternal frogman on the high ground.

• 2:28:19Speaker 01

  On the high ground. That's right.

• 2:28:21Jocko Willink?

  Covering down on the boys.

• 2:28:23Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:28:24Jocko Willink?

  Um, and you got, that was pretty close. That was basically the end of our deployment.

• 2:28:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:28:28Jocko Willink?

  When did you guys start, start heading home?

• 2:28:31Speaker 01

  We, we left, uh, I think we, we, uh, completed our rip on the 15th of November. So we, we got home right before Thanksgiving. Uh, great story tied to that. We were in TQ, uh, waiting transport and we were only there for a day. And it was the first time we'd all been together in a year. Cause you know, the battalion was all spread out. Um, so it's the first time everybody. He's been in one location. And so the one MEF Deputy Commander was General Neller. I remember him. Ended up becoming the Commandant Marine Corps. Phenomenal leader. So he came down, he's the cricketer all the time, which is why, you know,

• 2:29:13Speaker 01

  the boys loved him. And he would say things like, I ain't no fancy force recon guy. I'm just a grunt. And we all like, yeah, there guy. So he tried like hell to, you know, make sure we were in, you know, in good stead all the time. He's this great leader, you know, personable. He's down on the line, you know, doing all the things that are necessary. So he came out to TQ to say farewell to the entire battalion. Super. So I'm fired up. I'm like, sir, this is great. You know, of all the people that could come here and see us off, you know, this is, this means so much to the team. So thanks for that. And he goes, oh, yeah. And we got your two beers per man for the Marine Corps birthday.

• 2:30:00Speaker 01

  What?

• 2:30:01Jocko Willink?

  That's a thing?

• 2:30:02Speaker 01

  He goes, yeah, that's exactly it. What is that? He goes, well, everywhere Marines are deployed, they have a two beer ration for the Marine Corps birthday. It's like, we don't ask their age. You know, it's two beers per Marine, no matter where they are. And we got your two beers. Think about you guys as Marines. And I said, we're not doing that.

• 2:30:28Speaker 01

  And he goes, what do you mean?

• 2:30:33Speaker 01

  We're not Marines. He goes, but I think of you that way.

• 2:30:39Speaker 01

  And you should have the beers. I'm like, no. Because if you could walk down there and anybody can answer the question, when is the Marine Corps birthday?

• 2:30:50Speaker 01

  We'll drink all the beer at TQ. But we're not Marines. So I doubt anybody knows unless they have like a family member or something that's a Marine. I go, we don't do shore leave and we don't do port calls and we don't do any of that. I mean, we, General Room One is General Room One and the rules have to apply. And the thing that practically, you know, talked to you about this is that none of these kids have spent any money in a year.

• 2:31:18Speaker 01

  So what's to say that good old Clark decides that I'm gonna pay 50 bucks for your two beers? 50 bucks for your two beers and 50 bucks for your two beers. And oh, by the way, I got the money because I've spent it on nothing.

• 2:31:36Speaker 01

  And then I drank 10 beers and now we got a problem.

• 2:31:41Speaker 01

  And then the answer to the question is, how do you get 10 beers? It's like, how do you get any? It's like, because Clark was weak. And he succumbed to pressure to drink like in high school. And of course, you know, it's not, it wasn't that frank a discussion between Lieutenant Colonel and one star. I'm like, sir. No, we can't do that. And he's like, ah, he goes, you know, I have half a mind to tell him you said that. And I said, I'm pretty sure my reputation could absorb that lick today. And he just laughed. But yeah, so I had to tell, I told everybody, I was like, Marines want to give you all two beers. I said, no.

• 2:32:23Speaker 01

  Hang in there. We have all the beer we want in a couple of days. Let's just keep it together. For a little while longer. And yeah, we were able to do that. But man, what, just a funny. He was excited. We got you. So the next time I see him, I'm now one star and he's coming out of Marine Corps. And he's looking at me and he's like, Clark, drank any beer lately?

• 2:32:48Speaker 01

  Certain fact I have.

• 2:32:50Jocko Willink?

  Dude, they don't play around with the Marine Corps birthday.

• 2:32:52Speaker 01

  No, it's serious business.

• 2:32:54Jocko Willink?

  They get, well, I don't know if they still do this, but kids would get, you know, like the 17, 18, 19 year old Marines would get waivers. To drink, just cleared hot. Like you're 18 years old, you're 19 years old, you are cleared hot.

• 2:33:08Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. And the Marine Corps seniors, like they would travel with their mess kit, you know, so they would go to, you know, go to some embassy to have a Marine Corps birthday ball. Like while you're in combat, it's like, like, where are you going?

• 2:33:22Jocko Willink?

  They're getting it done.

• 2:33:23Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. I love the tradition, though. I think that's.

• 2:33:25Jocko Willink?

  No, it's awesome. It's outstanding.

• 2:33:29Jocko Willink?

  Now you're, so now you get home and you actually stayed in battalion command when you got home. That's pretty awesome.

• 2:33:35Speaker 01

  That was great.

• 2:33:36Jocko Willink?

  Very lucky.

• 2:33:36Speaker 01

  Another six months. What that helped us to do is kind of get everybody back, for sure. You know, to, to be able to, you know, first memorialize our fallen comrades. So as you know, you know, we had a memorial done because we had the time to raise the money and to get it in. We had that task force reunion ball to kind of bring everybody back together one more time.

• 2:34:00Jocko Willink?

  It was awesome.

• 2:34:01Speaker 01

  Just to honor the service and the sacrifice of all those that had gone before us, especially those who couldn't be with us that night.

• 2:34:09Jocko Willink?

  And you guys put Mikey on that, man.

• 2:34:11Speaker 01

  Absolutely. We did. Yeah. So he's on every memorial. He's featured, you know, prominently in that headquarters.

• 2:34:17Jocko Willink?

  Amazing.

• 2:34:18Speaker 01

  He's, yeah, he's one of us. So I, I carry that print around of, Zumwalt Class Destroyer 1001. Talk about it all the time. I've got my little Navy wall with my paddle and.

• 2:34:31Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:34:32Speaker 01

  Finn and all that stuff and put up my office so people know I love them.

• 2:34:36Jocko Willink?

  General McFarland's Army SEALs. We're clear.

• 2:34:39Speaker 01

  How's he get credit for that? I'm pretty sure I said that.

• 2:34:42Jocko Willink?

  Did you say that first?

• 2:34:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, I did.

• 2:34:46Jocko Willink?

  Well, we, we took, we took and ran with it. That's for sure.

• 2:34:48Speaker 01

  Now, we all said that.

• 2:34:50Jocko Willink?

  How rough was it? I mean, how for, for your boys that are coming home and now they are, now they do have access to drinking and everything else. They've been in combat for a year. Hardcore combat, lost friends, the whole nine yards. Was, was it rough? What'd you do to mitigate?

• 2:35:02Speaker 01

  It was, it was hard. Not so much the, you know, the effects of war. Because again, if it's your first deployment, then you don't know anything different. If it's your, you know, not your first deployment, you go, man, that was really hard. But they're not all that hard. But it's the keeping everybody, you know, safe and healthy away from work. So it's the, from the time you get there in the morning for PT until you go home at the end of the day, you don't worry about it. Everybody's good. But then, you know, unstructured time away from the headquarters, away from the, the formation, that's, that's when you have your big problem.

• 2:35:41Speaker 01

  So the thing that we struggled with was DUIs. So, you know, we would, we would, you know, give the safety brief every night. It's like, hey, man, don't go out and try to drink all the brown liquor in Kentucky and drive 100 miles an hour down to Penny Row. It doesn't work. You know, if you have an issue, call somebody. We had a barracks number with dudes would drive to come get you if you're in trouble. So there's no need to drink and drive. So we had a couple of DUIs and it was kind of like, man, it doesn't make any sense. And then we had one that was just completely on, just unimaginable. It was, soldier went off to Warrior Leader Course. He's just a stud, you know, squared away young kid.

• 2:36:25Speaker 01

  We had a barracks problem with overcrowding. So some of the more mature, you know, squared away young troopers, were allowed to live off post and this guy was one of them. And so he goes off to the Warrior Leader Course to Fort Knox. Temporary duty, comes back, his squad leader, well, first he gets a DUI. And so we're like, oh, man, like what, what is this? And, and so we had this, it was a safety council that we would meet. If it was a serious incident, we would all meet in the morning, the entire chain of command. And if it was something that was a soldier misconduct issue,

• 2:37:03Speaker 01

  then the team leader for that soldier, first line supervisor, NCO, would be the person that basically briefed the chain of command. And it was platoon, company, battalion, leadership, officer and NCO. So me and the Command Sergeant Major, First Sergeant and Company Commander, Platoon Sergeant, Platoon Leader, Squad Leader. And so on this one, we have everybody in there after this kid got DUI on Saturday night. It's a Monday morning. And the squad leader says, hey, I need to be the person that briefs, not the team leader.

• 2:37:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, it's the team leader that briefs. And he goes, no, sir, without, you know, like, without due respect, I need to brief this. Okay. All right. We're not going to argue at 5:30 in the morning about who briefs. All right. You, you brief it. So the soldier basically comes back from Warrior Leader Course. Squad leader meets him.

• 2:37:59Speaker 01

  Helps him turn in his weapon and his nods. Gives him a ride home because he doesn't have a car. But he's living off post. So the squad leader's been taking this guy to and from work, you know, because he lives nearby. So he basically tells this kid, hey, don't drink and drive. You missed the safety brief. Don't drink and drive. Oh, by the way, you don't have a license and you don't have a car.

• 2:38:26Speaker 01

  So don't do it.

• 2:38:29Speaker 01

  Okay, Sergeant. Takes him home. He's like, your girlfriend has a car. Don't take her car. Okay. So the next morning, he goes back to the guy's house and he goes, hey, you were kind of sleepy last night when I was talking to you. Do not drink or drive. Do not drive. You do not have a license. You do not have a car. Don't do it. Kid gets a DUI that night. So it's like, how do you solve this? And so, you know, of course, everybody's losing their mind at this point. Like, how much work, got done to keep this from happening? It still happens. So I asked the question, go, where were you going? Like what? Like all this? Like where were you? You ran through all these stop signs in order to get to this fender bender that,

• 2:39:13Speaker 01

  ended up with you above the blood alcohol content allowable in a car. Like, where were you going? It was to visit a buddy who had been wounded that was, you know, on medication for pain and drinking. And he's, he said, I gotta go be with him because he's spiraling. So his girlfriend was tired. She come home from work. And he's like, I gotta go. So he went, spent time with his buddy. So what's going to cause you to forego your own, you know, health, safety, potentially your life? Your brothers. And that's exactly what it was. I mean, right motivation, wrong technique.

• 2:39:58Speaker 01

  But that's what it was. And so in my mind, at that point, you know, something clicked because it's, it's that we're willing to take risks to ourselves for our brothers. So how do we leverage that to make ourselves accountable for each other as opposed to just being accountable for ourselves? So he's gonna risk it. He's gonna risk the biscuit to get to see his. Brother, but he's not going to do it. If somebody else has to pay for it. So that's what we worked on. It's like, hey, if you get the DUI, man, that hurts him too. It's not just you. So how do we, you know, how do we work through that? And of course, you know, how do you adjudicate it for this soldier who obviously,

• 2:40:41Speaker 01

  you know, was trying to do the right thing, but obviously bad things happen. So, so yeah, we did what we could to support him, obviously support his buddy. But then, you know, talk about how we take care of each other. Here, not just down range. And the way to do that is by really being there for one another in a way that makes sense. It's safe and doing it the right way. So, so we were able to work through it, but gosh, I mean, that's, that was the biggest challenge that we had was just trying to keep people upright. You know, between the hours of limited visibility, just like in the fight. With no hint of leadership. Yeah.

• 2:41:18Jocko Willink?

  And so you do that for another six months or so. Now, once you get home, what, what came after that?

• 2:41:24Speaker 01

  Well, I was, uh, I was on orders to go to West Point to be a regimental tactical officer. There are four regiments of cadets. So we're pretty excited about that. We'd already entered our names into the housing draw and we were feeling good about it. And then somebody got fired. At Human Resources Command. So I end up going back to Branch. Uh, this time as the Branch Chief 10 years later. So, uh, funny story. I, when I was a captain in there, I'd gotten into it with one of the civilian ladies. Cause yeah, I didn't think she was pulling her weight. So we moved some furniture around to, you know, help our company grade cell, you know, do better work. Cause we're doing some of her work too, in my mind.

• 2:42:04Speaker 01

  And so she basically, you know, threatened to, you know, take me to the union and, you know, bend my dog tags and sue me and everything else. So I'm like, whatever. And so she went the rest of the time I was there for another year. Never referring to me in person. She would tell people to tell me things if we were sitting this close to each other. I was dead to her.

• 2:42:26Jocko Willink?

  Cold blooded.

• 2:42:27Speaker 01

  Dead to her. Yeah. Her nickname was Shug. So you know, and it wasn't Sugar. It was like Shug Knight. Gangster. So, so I show back up as the Branch Chief 10 years later.

• 2:42:40Speaker 01

  And all the other, you know, civilians are all excited. They're like, oh, he's back. Wow. Yeah. He's such a good dude. I love him. And then, uh, she's kind of sitting behind her computer, you know, kind of behind the screen, just eyes over the screen.

• 2:42:54Speaker 01

  So I said, Shug, hug it out. Come on. I know you got hate in your heart. Come on, hug it out. And so she comes over and I hug her and she's got her arms down at her sides. And I said, I bet you would have been nicer of me if you knew I was coming back 10 years to be your boss. And she said, no, there's no way. Cause I thought you were too effing stupid to make it, you know, beyond the grade of captain. I go, since I have, let's work this out. And she was great. I mean, she, I ended up coming back to officiate her retirement. After I'd left when I was in my next duty station. She was fantastic. But yeah, she was so mad at me for 10 years and I ended up back there as her boss.

• 2:43:36Jocko Willink?

  Sometimes you just gotta hug it out.

• 2:43:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, hug it out. But we did great work because, um, we were able to, to go and spend time with brigade combat teams before they went into the box. Uh, to Iraq, Afghanistan and help them, one, set their team for the deployment, but two, make sure they were ready. Uh, to reset the team to go again. Cause you had all these, you know, units are redeploying, but leaders are rotating out through our four gen model. So we were able to do some good during that timeframe and during the surge and, and all that. So despite, you know, being unhappy about, you know, the initial, you know, burst traffic that, hey, you're, you're not going to do something, you know, fun.

• 2:44:18Speaker 01

  You're going to go do something hard. But the next assignment after that, I ended up at West Point.

• 2:44:23Jocko Willink?

  Right, right.

• 2:44:25Jocko Willink?

  And so explain what the Simon Center is.

• 2:44:27Speaker 01

  It's the William E. Simon Center for the Professional Military Ethic. It is the centerpiece of West Point's Character Development Program. So it's responsible for the developments, the development of leaders of character for the Army and the nation through the Character Development Program at West Point.

• 2:44:44Jocko Willink?

  When you took that over, what did you, you know, what, what lessons from the Battle of Ramadi? When you're talking to these young, uh, Army candidates, cadets. What, what are you trying to pass on to them?

• 2:44:58Speaker 01

  Well, um, there's a capstone course MX 400 that all the, it's a graduation requirement that all the cadets have to take. The Simon Center runs the course. So, um, in the, in the class that I taught, they would literally come to see me as if they were reporting for duty as a new lieutenant in the first of the 506th. So I would give them their initial counseling, my OER support form, my priorities as a commander and commander's intent, the same thing I gave to lieutenants when they show up. And that's how we ran the class, like they were lieutenants in the battalion.

• 2:45:31Jocko Willink?

  So you li- literally set it up like a role play scenario where you said, you are now checking into the first of the 506th. I am the battalion commander.

• 2:45:38Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:45:39Jocko Willink?

  Oh, that's awesome.

• 2:45:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so they, they loved it. Cause again, anything that helps them with practicum, you know, the next mission is to be a lieutenant. So this is going to help me with that to establish my personal and professional identity as an Army officer. So it's, it was really good.

• 2:45:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Do you still get feedback from, from those troops?

• 2:45:56Speaker 01

  Oh yeah. I mean, some of the students that I taught ended up, you know, on the personal staff later on. Um, and it's good because they, you know, they can call bull, you know, bull crap on what you're doing. He's, or you know, let me tell you something. But yeah, I've run into quite a few of, you know, the students that were in my sections out in the Army doing big things.

• 2:46:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's awesome.

• 2:46:17Speaker 01

  So yeah, they're all promotable to O5 right now. First group I taught. Yeah. It tells you you're getting old when you're cadets or lieutenant colonels. Yeah.

• 2:46:27Jocko Willink?

  And then, uh, so you picked up Brigade Command after that?

• 2:46:29Speaker 01

  I did.

• 2:46:30Jocko Willink?

  And then how was that?

• 2:46:31Speaker 01

  Good. Uh, down at Fort Benning, Georgia, it was a training brigade.

• 2:46:34Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:46:34Speaker 01

  So we had, um, advanced individual training, uh, and infantry basic training together. So one station unit training for 11 bravos. And then we had, uh, basic training for all other MOSs. To include, uh, the kids who were, uh, college students that were coming, uh, to become officers through the OCS program.

• 2:46:54Jocko Willink?

  What do you learn about people like psychologically? When you're seeing like that with your Ranger School experience too, when you're watching that, when you're watching this basic training and stuff. I mean, that's gotta be, that's gotta be an incredible view into the human mind when you see these kids get turned from civilians to soldiers.

• 2:47:14Speaker 01

  Oh, it's, it's because we also had responsibility for the reception battalion. You get to see them come rolling in on day one and, you know, they tell you, wear comfortable shoes. For your initial entry because they're going to issue you, you know, running shoes and boots and stuff when you get here. So just come in comfortable shoes. So depending on where you're coming from in America, that can mean a lot of different things. You know, there's this kid shows up with these boots, cowboy boots. And they're, they're purple and the upper is white. And it's got like these purple crosses on the fronts of them. So it's like he's, you know, from Texas Christian University decided to wear his signature boots to basic training.

• 2:47:56Speaker 01

  So he's in PT uniform, cause that's what they issue you to put you in a soldier, you know, a soldier uniform, you know, as a soldier. You know, your first minutes, they teach you the, you know, so the, the Army values and soldier's creed. And then they put you in a PT uniform and the comfortable shoes, you have to make it through day one wearing them. The kids from Hawaii, you know what that is? They're literally in slippers. Yeah. So it's like cousin. Come on. But yeah, it's, they, they go from that to, you know, the end of, you know, 14 weeks, uh, for OCS and 10 for the others. Um, they come out the other side and you have nev- if you've been to a basic training graduation,

• 2:48:41Speaker 01

  there is no more patriotic, you know, empowering motivational ceremony on earth. Cause these kids, I mean, in a lot of cases, you know, the Army is the first organization that they've been in. That is of, you know, the right kind of values that they've aspired to their whole lives. We had a situation where we had a hazing incident. And, uh, you know, of course there's 50 kids in a platoon and drill sergeant, you know, stepped out of, you know, character and did something inappropriate, which, you know, not widespread, but it happens. People make mistakes and do things that are not good. And, you know, of course the cover up is always worse than the crime, right? So there's a lot of that.

• 2:49:23Speaker 01

  And in the meantime, we find out, you know, cause somebody, you know, talks. To a chaplain or slips a note under somebody's door, it comes out. And so when it all, you know, is said and done, as it turns out, there were these two soldiers, a buddy team that decided that they couldn't, they couldn't live with it. They had to tell somebody. And so, you know, into the investigation, we get all the statements, we figure out what happened. Obviously, we, you know, minister, you know, justice as necessary.

• 2:49:54Speaker 01

  And then the battalion commander says, hey, uh, to me and commander major goes, you, you guys got to meet these two soldiers. You have, it's, it's worth your time to spend a few minutes with them, talk to them. Okay, so they come in, sit down in my office and these guys, you know, brand new kids, you know, 18 years old. And so I said, what made you step up and choose the harder ride over these or wrong? And the kid said, you know, sir, I listened to the story you told. And it was the one about Alvarez. I'd tell those, every company would get the story about Alvarez and Pushkin with Sergeant, with Sergeant Sullivan, every one of them. Never leave a fallen comrade, be there for each other.

• 2:50:37Speaker 01

  And so he said, sir, I remember that story you told. And I thought to myself, you know, the army is the only place I've ever been where the values of the organization are what I've been looking for my whole life. He said, I grew up in an environment where people lied to me, didn't tell me the truth, you know, were just not of the right kind of character. He said, so I come to the army and it's like I've lived my entire life in a smoke filled room and I'm breathing fresh air for the first time. He goes, and then this happens. And I remember what you said, and I'm not going back in

• 2:51:14Speaker 01

  that room. So that's the power of it. And again, to see these families embrace their soldier who's been through a crucible and come out the other side a better person. And he's often running to the next level, you know, to, to join an army, you know, which is in a state of persistent conflict from those part. Uh, it's just really powerful.

• 2:51:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Um, and then after that, it was what Pentagon bound?

• 2:51:46Speaker 01

  After that, I went to academic fellowship at Duke University.

• 2:51:50Jocko Willink?

  Oh geez, okay.

• 2:51:51Speaker 01

  Which was super fun and interesting because my daughter was a student.

• 2:51:54Jocko Willink?

  I was gonna say, was she there at the same time?

• 2:51:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, that was fun. And, and because, you know, she's, she's just a

• 2:52:02Jocko Willink?

  That's awesome. I mean, after all the times the army said, nope, this is where you're going.

• 2:52:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. So we get, we get Duke and, and again, she's a sophomore. So it was a fun year because, you know, one, we got to, you know, spend time with her as an adult, which was cool. And then she didn't live at home. I mean, she's, she was an athlete. So she was in the dorm and she's with her team and we got a chance to see her grow and develop as a student athlete. And it was fun. But the, the best part was we would, she was on a full scholarship. So she would, she would say, hey,

• 2:52:34Speaker 01

  let's meet for coffee before class, I'm buying. And I'm like, yeah, all right. So we'd meet at a place that's called Joe Bangos and she would, hey, get whatever you want. And I'm like, all right, that's what I'm talking about. So we did some of that, uh, but it was fun. And then I would get feedback from her on, um, some of my, you know, activities in the classroom where I'm, you know, helping out the instructor and doing like one, we had this fantastic professor and the, the course that she taught was called the politics of violence. And so she asked me to sit in her class and offer vignettes when they get to something like, I don't know, the psyche of the

• 2:53:14Speaker 01

  suicide bomber, or, you know, Connor insurgency, or, you know, or the civil rights movement because I was alive in 1968. So, so it's stuff like that. And so in her class, she was, she's a Harvard graduate, was, uh, spent a bunch of time studying conflict, that lived in the West Bank. I mean, super talented, but she, she was young. She was like mid 30s. And so she looks like a student. And, and so she's like, man, I'd love for you to be in my class and like help, you know, with some of the feedback and give some context to things. Yeah, I'd love that. So I'm in the class and then she and I would meet for, you know, preparation for class. And, and she said, you know, I just

• 2:53:56Speaker 01

  don't understand how some of these kids are like not prepared. You know, they think that asking a stupid question is class participation. You know, it's not widespread, but there's some kids that just don't care enough about what we're doing. I go, okay, that's easy. I'll show up for class. I said, show up for class eight minutes late. Cause at 10 minute mark, people think they can leave. I go, show up eight minutes late. I go, I'll be there. I'll take care of it. And she goes, really? What are you gonna do? I go, it's no fun if I have to tell you. So I'm in class, students are coming in, it's about five minutes, they're starting to get antsy because it, the instructor's not there, professor's not there. And so I get up and I, I go, all right, instructor's gonna be a little late. Cause she asked me to talk to you guys first. And a couple of students,

• 2:54:39Speaker 01

  I've been in there for like, two months and they don't know who I am. They're like, who's that guy? Like, where'd he come from? I'm like, I'm Colonel Clark. I'm a war college fellow here at Duke. And what the doc asked me to do was to talk to you about your responsibility as students to be prepared for class. I don't understand why is some of that. I was like, hey, look, it's very simple. You have to have an investment in what you're doing. Like, why are you even here? So same thing that the, you know, guy told me when I was, full circle now. So back to the part about my daughter. So, so she goes, hey, I heard you laid down a fatwa in class today. I was like, really?

• 2:55:21Speaker 01

  She goes, yeah, one of the kids in the track team was in there like, your dad, like, how'd you survive? And she goes, cause I'm on the right side of things all the time. You don't want to be on the bad side of things. So it was fantastic. She's getting feedback through the track team on, you know, stuff going on. But it was fun. It was a great year. Got to contribute a bit.

• 2:55:41Jocko Willink?

  Sounds awesome. Yeah. Yeah. It pays off, pays to do things right. I was turning over my aid responsibilities and I'm going, you know, this, this, and this, and this, and, you know, gotta be this, and make sure you have this. He wants this stuff. And, and the guy that was taking over for me, you know, after two days, he looks at me and goes, hey, what, what, what does the boss do? Like when you, when you mess something up? And I looked at him and I said, I don't know.

• 2:56:08Speaker 01

  And he was like, oh gosh. We're breaking new ground. I never screwed up anything.

• 2:56:13Jocko Willink?

  Be on the right side, man.

• 2:56:15Speaker 01

  Oh no.

• 2:56:16Jocko Willink?

  Then what?

• 2:56:17Speaker 01

  Uh, then to the Pentagon.

• 2:56:18Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:56:19Speaker 01

  So it was, uh,

• 2:56:20Jocko Willink?

  Was that your first time at the Pentagon?

• 2:56:21Speaker 01

  It was.

• 2:56:22Jocko Willink?

  How was that? Good times?

• 2:56:24Speaker 01

  It was good. The, uh, oh, here's another story. So we're, uh, first time ever, I'm working in strategy plans and policy, which is good. I mean, it's army strategy. Okay. Let's go. So we're in there, we're figuring things out. And my boss, it was his first time at the Pentagon too. He's two star. And I'm, I'm a promotable Colonel. So, so we're, you know, but we've been around. I mean, it's, it's not, you're not new to the army. You're just new to the way that the Pentagon, you know, there's language and there's, you know, stuff. And once you figure your way around, you know, it's, it's, it's work. So, so I'm, you know, getting ready for work one morning. My wife goes,

• 2:57:01Speaker 01

  hey, there's an article on the strategy bridge. And I think it's about you. And I went, oh, this could be good advice. Good. The strategists talk about it. And she goes, it's, it really, it talks about all these stupid generals and colonels that never been to Pentagon before, don't know the army screwing up. Cause the first time in the Pentagon is when you're Colonel or General. I'm like, like, who wrote that? Of course, it's a dude that works on this. It's like, go see him. I go, hey, man. Really? He's like, sir, that wasn't supposed to go. I go, it's so fantastical. You know, it's going somewhere. I go, so do you want me to preheat this with the boss? Or you want to

• 2:57:44Speaker 01

  just go in on this on your own? He's like, oh, sir, please preheat it. I go, no, I don't know the language. I'm sorry. It's my first Pentagon tour. Good luck. Yeah. But we were, oh yeah, we were able to tamp it down though. But it was interesting. We had a great, you know, great opportunity to really understand how the army works.

• 2:58:01Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. It's, I, when I was a, we did a bunch of time in the Pentagon, man. It's like a whole, a whole, uh, ecosphere. You got to understand and learn and the way that thing operates is crazy.

• 2:58:11Speaker 01

  It is nuts. It's nuts. It only gets worse the more senior you get.

• 2:58:15Jocko Willink?

  I'm sure. Yeah.

• 2:58:17Speaker 01

  I'm just saying, I, when I was a, when I was a three star, I was having coffee with Vinay Mystery, who was one of the medics in a medic platoon. He was a civilian working in Pentagon. It was his last day. So we went down to the little courtyard in the middle of the Pentagon and have a cup of coffee and just kind of catch up. But do you know, we couldn't talk 30 seconds without somebody stopping me. Most of them had no idea who I am, but they know that it's a three star general and I'm probably involved in some sort of graft and corruption to not be sitting and doing some meeting or doing a thing. I can't just be sitting, having coffee. One guy goes, man, I've never seen a three star out here before. Work must be, I go, stop.

• 2:58:52Speaker 01

  Stop. Just keep it moving along. But yeah, but he was like, sir, do we need to go somewhere? No. We just need to keep swatting these guys away, man. But yeah, that's what I'm talking about. It's a become a tourist attraction.

• 2:59:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Uh, and then then deputy commanding general, eighty second airborne?

• 2:59:10Speaker 01

  Eighty second airborne division.

• 2:59:11Jocko Willink?

  And how'd that feel?

• 2:59:12Speaker 01

  That was cool. You know, being on jump status at almost fifty. Ground's a lot harder than you remember.

• 2:59:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's gotta get harsh.

• 2:59:22Speaker 01

  But it was fantastic because I worked for Rich Clark. So, you know, Rich Clark, Ron Clark, nobody got confused about nothing having to do with who's who. So you'd hear all the time, it's like, hey, uh, General Clark said this and people like, which one? I'm like, does it matter?

• 2:59:41Speaker 01

  It's either me or him. It still needs to happen, whatever it is. But what a great experience for me.

• 2:59:49Speaker 01

  Because we deployed almost immediately when I got there, went back to Iraq. And and I just, I loved being in that division. I mean, it was, kids are so motivated for an extra, you know, two hundred and fifty bucks a month in a, you know, in a maroon beret. They are getting after it. Oh, yeah. So it just the, I'd never been in the eighty second before. And so for me, you know, of the units that you'd want to serve in, um, that for me was was one of them. And I really enjoyed my time there.

• 3:00:19Jocko Willink?

  And what were you guys doing in Iraq? Was this, this is ISIS?

• 3:00:22Speaker 01

  This is inherent resolve. Uh, so this is ISIS.

• 3:00:27Speaker 01

  Interesting thing was our scent, third army had the mission. And then third corps came in and that was General McFarland. So he, he comes in as the commander of third corps, gets the mission as the JTF commander. And so he and I, one of the first things we did together was fly out to Anbar.

• 3:00:44Jocko Willink?

  Back in the game.

• 3:00:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. So we're on a, you know, we're on a C twelve out to Al Asad. And I said, sir, did you ever see this? He's like, no.

• 3:00:57Speaker 01

  It was good though. I mean, it's because you had that common framework.

• 3:01:00Jocko Willink?

  For sure.

• 3:01:00Speaker 01

  Uh, for for what, you know, one, how training with, you know, partners supposed to work. And now we both have the experience, not just of having served in that, you know, region, but having served together. And then there's, uh, because the Iraqi army is making a comeback, right? They're making a resurgence. So General Razak. Back.

• 3:01:20Jocko Willink?

  Really?

• 3:01:21Speaker 01

  In Iraq. In TQ. So, so General McFarland goes out, takes, you know, takes that picture of that famous picture of us in the, in the soccer stadium. After cop Eagles nest, um, Operation Eagles nest. And, uh, and so he has, uh, Razak sign it. And then he signed it and he handed it to me and he said, your turn. So I flew out there just to, you know, see one, what we're doing with the training mission out there, but really to spend a few minutes with General Razak. Who came back from the US to Iraq, uh, to fight ISIS.

• 3:01:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:01:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:01:57Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's that. Talk about, uh, just crazy timing. That you were there working for McFarland again.

• 3:02:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. So one of my favorite memories of General Razak, and this is when he was a brigade commander for first brigade Iraqis. We're having, we're doing a mission brief and, you know, the operations orders going and and General Gronski is, uh, is still there then. And, uh, so General Gronski gives his commander's intent. And then the translator translates it and then he goes, but I'm gonna say this again to make sure the translator gets this right. And Razak is sitting, so Razak is sitting next to me, Gronski's right here. So Razak turns and looks at me like.

• 3:02:42Speaker 01

  Then he winks and goes back. He speaks English. He knows exactly what's going down. But yeah, I'm not, I'm not ready to show all my cards yet. But he's like.

• 3:02:52Speaker 01

  So afterwards I told Gronski that he goes, oh, that's good. It's like, yeah, yeah.

• 3:02:57Jocko Willink?

  I had, we were supposed to, you know, we were submitting pictures and PowerPoint briefs of us working with the Iraqi soldiers. You know, it was a big part of, you know, the special operations, joint special operations mission was that stuff. And we, you know, our pictures were kind of, you know, not the best. So I call Stone, I go, hey, man, I need like some legit pictures of you doing some legit stuff with some Iraqis. And I know, I kid you not, two hours later, he sends me the most epic, he's like Lawrence of Arabia. Him and Razak standing around the table, there's battle maps out there, pointing fingers, lasers. It was, it was the, it was the best setup ever. It was, it looked amazing. I was like, that's absolutely perfect.

• 3:03:39Jocko Willink?

  We use those, we use those same pictures, you know, or variants of them for the next six months.

• 3:03:43Speaker 01

  Oh, they were great partners too, though. I mean, he, he, he got it. He was out, I mean, he would, he would go into Ramadi like in civilian clothes. To try to get atmospherics and stuff, man.

• 3:03:55Jocko Willink?

  Wild.

• 3:03:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:03:56Jocko Willink?

  Wild, and he went back again. Uh, and then what came after that? Two thousand sixteen, two thousand seventy.

• 3:04:02Speaker 01

  I went to the NATO allied rapid reaction corps to be the de cas ops in the UK.

• 3:04:08Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 3:04:08Speaker 01

  Fine assignment.

• 3:04:10Jocko Willink?

  You like that?

• 3:04:11Speaker 01

  Brilliant.

• 3:04:11Jocko Willink?

  Where were you in the UK?

• 3:04:12Speaker 01

  We were in, uh, it was a, a place called, uh, called Gloucester, uh, Imjin barracks. Which is where the U, the UK corps is located. So they have a, they have one corps, it's the allied rapid reaction corps, three star headquarters at readiness. So it's a Brit three star in charge of this thing. And there's always an American who's the de cas ops. So you're responsible for a lot, planning and and operations. And there's a Brit, um, chief of staff, an Italian decom. So it's, it's truly a, and it's a NATO formation. Really good headquarters, very mature, focused on high readiness.

• 3:04:55Jocko Willink?

  Are you uncommonly well rounded for, uh, for an army officer? Do, you know, to Europe, uh, Middle East, Asia, like, is that, is that normal?

• 3:05:07Speaker 01

  No. I think, and again, it's, you know, general is short for generalist. So you're supposed to know a lot about, you know, inch deep, mile wide on things. For me, I've just, I've had, you know, multiple experiences in multiple theaters as a general officer, which, which has been super helpful to me. But I don't think it's, I mean, it's, it's good. I mean, it helps me with everything I'm doing now because I've spent time with, um, our partners in the Five Eyes community. I've spent time, you know, with NATO teammates. I've spent time, you know, obviously in the Pacific, but I hadn't gone to the Pacific until the, after that assignment. So, you know, to think that you could, you know, make your way back.

• 3:05:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:05:52Speaker 01

  You know, in that, that case, um, for me was, was great.

• 3:05:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:05:56Speaker 01

  But I enjoyed being in Europe. It was good.

• 3:05:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, just well rounded to see all this stuff, you know, all over the place. And and then you end up back at the, uh, twenty fifth infantry division.

• 3:06:06Speaker 01

  Actually, I was at Euser Pack first. I was the chief of staff. Yeah, so I, I, you know, show back up, uh, General Bob Brown asked me, um, when I was at Capstone, you know, the one star course where you travel all around. We did a Pacific trip. And he goes, hey, uh, how long you been in England? And I'm like, four months? He's like, okay.

• 3:06:27Speaker 01

  How would you like to be my chief of staff next summer? I'm like.

• 3:06:31Speaker 01

  I just got here. And he goes, yeah. But yeah, fourteen months, that's all you really need there. Um, that's the league minimum for joint assignment. And then we need you out here. I'm like, okay, cool. So fourteen months and a day, I was in Hawaii. Which I hadn't been back since, uh, for duty since nineteen ninety six. So it's twenty year break in, in time. So I guess we left in ninety seven. But the, um, the cool thing was, you know, I show up at, at Euser Pack to be his chief of staff. And this is a third time I'd worked for him.

• 3:07:04Jocko Willink?

  Damn.

• 3:07:04Speaker 01

  So you're able to finish the sentences and and it was just really a good environment.

• 3:07:11Speaker 01

  To, to learn and grow from a, a very, you know, mature, focused, senior guy who's a team builder. So that to have that experience, working with him and then to go to the twenty fifth infantry division from there.

• 3:07:25Speaker 01

  You know, twenty years after I was the age, I'm back, same office.

• 3:07:31Jocko Willink?

  Oh, that's crazy.

• 3:07:33Speaker 01

  Same house.

• 3:07:33Jocko Willink?

  Oh, that's crazy.

• 3:07:34Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. So, so I would, I would talk all the time. We'd do a newcomers run every Tuesday. Four miles, you know, nine minute pace, easy, but it's a, it's a help, it's to help new soldiers acclimatize to, you know, the environment there. And it's, and it's hard, you know, if you're just coming out of someplace where, one, people haven't been doing good PT and two, someplace where it's warm. It can be a challenge. So at the end of it is when I would talk, once we got everybody together, all the kids, you know, who made it. And then the ones who didn't, you know, fell out, they'd get them back there and so they're all together. And I would go, hey.

• 3:08:11Speaker 01

  You can do this. I mean, trust me, I was the captain working in this building on the end where there's no air conditioning in nineteen ninety three. So, you know, you can go as far in this organization as your talents and motivation will take you. So you can do this. You just have to apply yourself to it. If today was difficult, it shouldn't be. Get there from here. And, you know, the, the cool thing was, because we had a patching ceremony the day prior, where the chain of command would go out and put the patches on the new soldiers from all the units in Hawaii. And then you do the run with them and you talk to them. Soldiers would connect with you in ways that are a bit unexpected. So I'm walking into the PX to get a Mother's Day card.

• 3:08:56Speaker 01

  It's like Friday, you know, I'm hustling in there to get something for the weekend. I'm struggling. And this, this soldier stops me and goes, sir.

• 3:09:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:09:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, salute to like, hey, tropic light. And he goes, no, no, no, sir. Let me introduce you to my wife and my daughter. And he's, and he is, you know, he's telling me about, he's telling me about his wife, his daughter and stuff. His wife is like, she's like, I don't understand like why, you know, you're doing that, but okay. And then she goes, are you in our company?

• 3:09:28Speaker 01

  And he goes, no, he's General Clark. He's in charge of all of this. And now she really has that look on her face like, what, what are we doing right now? And a little girl hugs my leg, you know, cause obviously I'm, you know, friendly forces, but I'm like,

• 3:09:43Speaker 01

  I guess he's like, he talked to us at the welcome brief and oh, man, he used to be here as a young officer. He's got a family too. And yeah, this is cool. And she's like, I don't think so.

• 3:09:56Speaker 01

  Can we go now? Yeah. But you get more of that than you want.

• 3:09:59Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. I came out there. You, you had me out there to come and talk to the troops there. That was, that was pretty awesome. Um, came out to Hawaii for a couple of days and talked to.

• 3:10:06Speaker 01

  Brought the house down.

• 3:10:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Couple, we did two rotations, one before lunch and one after lunch.

• 3:10:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:10:11Jocko Willink?

  We packed the theater. It was awesome.

• 3:10:12Speaker 01

  Sergeant Smith Theater, about 5,000 people, two turns.

• 3:10:17Jocko Willink?

  Outstanding.

• 3:10:18Speaker 01

  People from, uh, Coneyo and Pearl Harbor coming up to Scopio for the first time.

• 3:10:23Jocko Willink?

  Good stuff.

• 3:10:24Speaker 01

  Where are we going? Gee, Jocko, man. Where? I don't know.

• 3:10:30Jocko Willink?

  Uh, and then after that, you get command of, uh, US Army Central.

• 3:10:34Speaker 01

  Uh, I stayed in Hawaii for a while. Uh, I was the chief of staff at PACOM.

• 3:10:39Jocko Willink?

  Oh, okay.

• 3:10:39Speaker 01

  After that. So that's where we were during COVID.

• 3:10:42Jocko Willink?

  Can't, you can't keep a job, can you?

• 3:10:44Speaker 01

  I know.

• 3:10:45Jocko Willink?

  Job, the job, the job.

• 3:10:46Speaker 01

  Turns. So we moved eight times in 10 years. Yeah. So, uh, my wife and I have moved together 25 times.

• 3:10:56Jocko Willink?

  Gosh.

• 3:10:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. Over 38 years.

• 3:10:58Jocko Willink?

  I, I've, like, moving is one of the most stressful things for a family. That's like right up there with losing a job is moving.

• 3:11:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. The close move is more stressful.

• 3:11:09Jocko Willink?

  What does that mean?

• 3:11:09Speaker 01

  That means you're moving someplace that's not far from the place you're at now. So it's moving from one, 100 year old house to another 100 year old house. That's 12 miles from the house you're in to move to another 100 year old house. That's nine miles from there. And then in this job, I moved four houses down because the house was under renovation. The, the commanding general's quarters were under renovation for the first, you know, year and a year and change. We were in command. So we had to move from quarters 10 to quarters five. So we had to move four houses down. So that number of things that, you know, you don't want to put on the truck goes up.

• 3:11:52Speaker 01

  If you're only going four houses down. So how much china? Now you can break it, right? So there's no insurance for that.

• 3:12:00Jocko Willink?

  It's on you.

• 3:12:00Speaker 01

  It's on you. The move, the move does not cover the things you break. So yeah, there's, yeah, luckily we were okay. But that was a 40,000 step day.

• 3:12:13Jocko Willink?

  And then it's US Army Central.

• 3:12:16Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:12:16Jocko Willink?

  Get command of that.

• 3:12:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:12:17Jocko Willink?

  How awesome is that feeling?

• 3:12:19Speaker 01

  It's pretty good. That's a great unit with an amazing history. Patton's own. So that's George S. Patton's third army.

• 3:12:27Jocko Willink?

  Dang.

• 3:12:27Speaker 01

  So you want to talk big time. That's, uh, there's a lot to that.

• 3:12:31Jocko Willink?

  And as you're taking over that unit, I mean, now you're just, you're in charge of thousands and thousands of soldiers. What do you, what do you focus on from your leadership position?

• 3:12:41Speaker 01

  It's, it's one of these, it's, it's an operational level command. So it's a little different in terms of the direct leadership responsibility. So you really lead through general officers and senior command sergeants, majors. So the understanding of your intent and how you plan to really undertake the fight at hand is through others. So you have to be able to empower those other general officers who are at the higher tactical level to be able to be successful at the edge.

• 3:13:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. It's interesting. I teach leadership. I talk about the fact that when, when you're in a fire team, you can manually make things happen.

• 3:13:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:13:22Jocko Willink?

  You know, you've got four or five guys, you can, it will happen. As a leader, you will make it happen. As soon as you get to a squad of eight, 10, 12 people, now you're, there's some guys can't hear you anymore. You can't just run over there and grab them anymore. Like you have to use your, your fire team leaders. And it just goes up from there. Yeah. So you get to the general level. It's like, yeah, that has to be in spades, you know, making that happen.

• 3:13:43Speaker 01

  And again, it's, you know, it's an organization that's, you know, just got a mature backbone and it has tremendous history. And the people that we served with while we were there were just unbelievable leaders. So it was super helpful to us to have them on board and to be able to get after the mission. But as all things would happen, I was in command

• 3:14:06Speaker 01

  for two weeks when Afghanistan fell.

• 3:14:09Speaker 01

  So

• 3:14:12Speaker 01

  good luck.

• 3:14:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:14:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's like, what are you going to do now? Like where should you be physically? Because you've got forward command posts in a couple of locations. Now you're responsible for receiving all of these, you know, folks who are displaced from Afghanistan. Like you've got other missions as well. That's not the only mission you have in that region. So just where do you need to be in order to get these things done? And where can you best position, you know, command posts and leaders in order to get things done? So it was, it was a challenging environment, to say the least.

• 3:14:45Jocko Willink?

  And then from a morale perspective as well.

• 3:14:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:14:48Jocko Willink?

  There's all these, you know, so many people sacrificed over there and then you see it just fall down like that.

• 3:14:52Speaker 01

  All, all in a, you know, very short period of time.

• 3:14:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And the next, it was back to the Pentagon after that?

• 3:14:58Speaker 01

  Back to the Pentagon as the senior military assistant to the secretary of defense.

• 3:15:03Jocko Willink?

  Carrying a bag type scenario?

• 3:15:05Speaker 01

  No.

• 3:15:08Speaker 01

  There are dudes who get paid to do that. Uh, but it, it's, uh, you're the senior military representative for the office of secretary. So you're, you know, another set of eyes, another set of ears. You're a pretty senior person. So you can get things done, uh, you know, through, you know, other commands. So you can, you can talk to the other combatant, you can talk to the combatant commanders in a way that they, you know, everyone communicates through you to the secretary anyway, the way, the way the office was run, uh, when I was there. So, so you have to, it's about people and relationships. It's about being able to maintain communications with, you know, your teammates who are one level up as four stars. Um, and then with the secretariat as well and with the joint staff. So,

• 3:15:53Speaker 01

  so it's, it's one of those jobs where you're kind of the focal point and clearinghouse for a lot of information that goes to the secretary. So, you know, it's, uh, it's a lot. It's, and it's every day, all day, in every time zone. Because it's the whole world.

• 3:16:09Jocko Willink?

  So what, what literally is your battle rhythm? Are you, what time do you wake up in the morning? What time do you go to bed at night?

• 3:16:14Speaker 01

  When we were in the building, I would wake up at four. So when your Instagram post hits at 4:34.

• 3:16:21Jocko Willink?

  You already got me.

• 3:16:22Speaker 01

  Done. Nice work, Jocko. Need some discipline.

• 3:16:29Jocko Willink?

  Can just step it up.

• 3:16:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. Where are you at? So yeah, about four, we'd, you know, work out then. Normally in the office before six, uh, read all the things, you know, he all, you know, gets all the special briefings from the three letter folks and to keep him flat with all the things going on in the world, you have to have all that information first. Everything that's in the press overnight, you've got all of that too.

• 3:16:57Speaker 01

  And then, you know, he would roll in before seven and then it's on until he's ready to roll out, which would be in the evening, but it's every day.

• 3:17:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:17:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's every day. No, no days off.

• 3:17:11Jocko Willink?

  And did you, did you, as you see that, like the, now you're at the highest level of perspective, what, what shifted in your brain? Or did things shift in your mind? You know, I was, I was the admiral's aide, you know, I'm sitting in the room with the four star. I'm sitting in the room with the sec def. I'm sitting in the room with the secretary of the Navy. Like you, you start seeing things a little bit different. Did anything in your perspective shift?

• 3:17:30Speaker 01

  Um, what it does, what it did for me is reinforce things that, um, that at that level would, um, you know, you'd, you'd think that, yeah, it's supposed to work like this because, you know, you still have to build teams. It's, relationships are, are just vital to success. You can't do any of this on your own. It's, you know, working by with and through, it's partnerships that are important. It's investing in relationships with people around you. It's being able to trust the people around you. And, and to be able to, to really assess, um, you know, uh, on a whole bunch of different fronts, uh, how you should, you know, react to things. Because one of the most challenging things to do in that job is,

• 3:18:15Speaker 01

  is to be invisible, right? So you're, you're there, but you're not. So you're sitting in every meeting, but no one ever asks your opinion.

• 3:18:26Speaker 01

  Until the meeting is over. And then the secretary is like, hey, what'd you think of that? And you've had some time to kind of mull it over. And it's, he's not asking, you know, what do you think I think of that? It's like, what do you think of that? Because obviously you've been, you know, in position a minute, you know, and that's my second three-star job. Um, had commanded, you know, at the previous two levels, you know, I'm, yeah, been around the block a little bit. Lot of, you know, very diverse experience, opportunities for me in a bunch of different places. And so, you know, when somebody would say something like, hey, this capability, we, we need to shift it. And I would go, okay, if we do that, then if, if that's the decision that, that you make,

• 3:19:09Speaker 01

  then you're going to uncover this, this and this. Cause it's all zero sum. I mean, there's not enough to be everywhere all the time. And I go, you're going to have to ask this partner to cover down on that. And if you're comfortable with that, and then, you know, it's his decision to make. But again, I'm, I'm, I'm in the room and he's asking my opinion and I'm like, where do you think this would occur? And I would go, okay, I'm, as I'm looking at this, um, the thing we didn't talk about is the obstacle built. And we think that there's going to be a breach, but where are the engineer assets? Wherever the engineer assets go, that's where it's happening. And he, yeah. But again, you know, it was, you know, Secretary Austin, who was in the uniform for 41 years. So it's kind of like being Tom Brady's quarterback coach, you know?

• 3:19:53Speaker 01

  You're sitting, you're sitting back there with the, with the iPad and you're going, yeah, he couldn't see this angle. But he saw it. And he's, he's, he's, he's the guy in, you know, in the arena and I'm, you know, kind of, you know, first row watching.

• 3:20:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And then does that bring us to your current assignment right now?

• 3:20:12Speaker 01

  It does.

• 3:20:14Jocko Willink?

  Commanding general, United States Army Pacific. So you've got 100, 111,000 soldiers.

• 3:20:19Speaker 01

  One team, one fight. Um, all three components.

• 3:20:23Jocko Willink?

  All three components. The theater includes 36 countries, 17 time zones, four bil- billion people. That's 60% of the world's population. Uh, seven of the 10 largest armies in the world. Five of the seven, seven mutual defense treaties, Australia, Japan, Korea, Philippines and Thailand. This is a massive job. Massive job.

• 3:20:48Speaker 01

  Are you asking me?

• 3:20:49Jocko Willink?

  Uh, no, I guess I'm telling you. I don't tell you anything, sir. Um, you, you, you know, there's so much going on and you know, this goes back to where you were just, you know, explaining you're leading through. You have to lead through other people. You just, you, and you have to get that mission and that commander's intent has got to filter through so many layers. I mean, have you ever counted out those layers? How many layers does it take to get down to a private soldier on the front line? That's a lot of layers.

• 3:21:18Speaker 01

  That's a lot. Yeah.

• 3:21:20Jocko Willink?

  So it's got to be simple, clear, concise.

• 3:21:22Speaker 01

  And you need some help.

• 3:21:23Jocko Willink?

  And you're going to need some people on board with the program.

• 3:21:25Speaker 01

  Right. So I have three priorities. Keep it simple, all in threes. Uh, all starts with a P. Again, keeping it simple, uh, to get it, you know, into people's heads. And so they understand that the three priorities are people, our partnerships, and then our efforts to prevail in competition, crisis and conflict. And we've been talking about people the entire time. So our focus on our people and for the army, people are our weapon system. It's, we don't put people on ships or planes and kit. We put kit on people. So to invest in the human is important.

• 3:22:05Speaker 01

  So our efforts to, to take care of each other, and that's everything from training for large-scale combat operations, to caring for, you know, our military families of which I've been a part of one for 60 years. It's important and it's ingrained in who I am and who I want us to be as an institution and organization. Partnerships, we can't do it without our partners and allies. Uh, you mentioned our five treaty allies. We don't have a structure like NATO where, you know, all of the nations are agreed upon a certain set of articles and principles and standards. So it's bilateral between us and some of our partners. It's multilateral in some cases, but we have to pull and draw their, uh, their trust and interest

• 3:22:50Speaker 01

  to partner with us, uh, to ensure the security of, of, of their countries and of the region. So for us, we don't do anything alone. We've since, you know, the Lexington and Concord, I mean, we've had partners and allies at our side at every turn. So the way we do things at USRPA is it's always with partners and allies in mind. It's always with them, uh, you know, at our side across 50 exercises. You asked about, you know, hey, what are the exercises? Operation pathways, 50 plus operations, activities and investments across the calendar year on key terrain, at the invitation of our partners and allies,

• 3:23:35Speaker 01

  with their forces, you know, shoulder to shoulder with us to get at the business of prevailing in competition, crisis and conflict. And the best way to prevail is by deterring war altogether. I mean, what we've been talking about the entire time is the harsh realities of combat. If we can forego that because we have demonstrated to our adversaries that today is not the day. You know, open the blinds. Still there. Close them. Not today.

• 3:24:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, not today.

• 3:24:06Speaker 01

  That's, that's what we try to do every day, you know, arm in arm with not just our partners and allies from our international teammates, but with the joint force. So we think of the army as the foundation of the joint force. So we provide convergence where we allow, um, for the connectivity of the joint force through army capabilities when we set the theater in, uh, the Pacific for crisis or conflict. We also, uh, have, you know, capability for strike. It's, you know, it's, it's, it's not necessarily new, but it's something that the army has really pressed.

• 3:24:44Speaker 01

  And you see it happening right now in the Middle East where army assets on and from the land are affecting the maritime space on unsinkable ships called land. You know, shoot, move, fight you again in a minute. So we've got that. And then, uh, close battle, which is our bread and butter and endurance, which the army through our ability to sustain the joint force, provides endurance necessary for us to again prevail.

• 3:25:14Jocko Willink?

  And how's the technology, um, looking? Is it just like every day, are you, are you seeing the technology evolve?

• 3:25:22Speaker 01

  Uh, it's, it's pretty cool. Um, but I, I cautioned by saying, you know, you got to be brilliant at the basics first. So still, you know, that basic hooking and jabbing that we talk about all the time. But the question remains, can you fight? And so part of the reason that embracing modernization and embracing technology is important is that the, the fundamental ways of war are not changing, but the contemporary environment is changing. So, you know, ubiquitous drones, you know, electromagnetic signature. I mean, the way we fought the fight in Ramadi with, you know, air superiority at all times and, you know, ubiquitous ISR at all times, that's, those days are gone.

• 3:26:07Speaker 01

  I mean, having, you know, having communications that are, you know, assured at all times, you know, sanctuary from which to build combat power. That, uh, that's challenged now. So now we've got down at the user level, you know, drone technology to send a drone like we would send a bullet instead of sending a human first. So we can buy down the risk of force by sending a drone. One of my favorite things to do when addressing groups of people and talking about, uh, the changing character of war and technology is launch drones during the speech. Just did it the other day.

• 3:26:46Jocko Willink?

  What, do you have them do flybys of the crowds? Just to let everybody know what up?

• 3:26:49Speaker 01

  Behold, drone goes up. Now all of a sudden, nobody's listening, which I'm okay with. Get me off the X. But yeah, we've done it twice now where we've flown drones during a speech that I'm giving in some freaking place, which is great. Cause the kids that are flying them are like, you know, E3s from the Tropic Lightning Division, you know?

• 3:27:09Jocko Willink?

  They're fired up.

• 3:27:09Speaker 01

  They are getting after it, you know? They released this thing called a Hornet. I swear it's about the size of this bayonet, you know? And it, it freaking took off and I couldn't see it because, you know, getting old, eyesight's not what it used to be. And so I go, behold.

• 3:27:26Speaker 01

  And then one of the captains jumps up and goes, it's over there.

• 3:27:31Speaker 01

  And it hovers, you know, people are like, oh, yeah, that's how it goes. So to be able to fight, you know, in a contested environment in electronic, you know, warfare space, to be able to leverage technology, whether it's, you know, compute at the edge that gives us, you know, ability to be able to upscale our targeting ability by being able to move digits across, you know, multiple contact layers with our partners and allies is something that we're gripping. And again, I think it's, it's the future. So if you don't get on board, it's kind of hard to,

• 3:28:12Speaker 01

  you know, continue to be successful. So we have a, we have a data minute on the front end of every

• 3:28:20Speaker 01

  commander's update brief where our, you know, innovation folks in our own headquarters that, that work, our command ed office will talk about AI and help us with adoption. Because, you know, if I find it interesting, people are going to find it fascinating. So we have to continue to work it from that perspective to kind of lead change in the organization because there's some people that

• 3:28:45Speaker 01

  still want to use flip phones and, you know, don't want to adopt anything that looks like, you know, the future. And if we don't, you know, we'll be in big trouble because our adversary, because right now we're fighting an adversary that's not near here. And if it emits, they can see it. So how do we, you know, hide signals in plain sight? And still, you know, have the ability to be able to leverage the technology at hand to get inside of our enemy's OODA loop or decision cycle.

• 3:29:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Yeah. The, the mindset, you know, is so important. I was talking to some young SEALs a couple of months ago, and they were talking about the fact that, you know, well, the training that we're doing right now, you know, it's not reflecting what we, what we're going to be doing on the battlefield. We're doing this, we should be doing that. And I said, I was explaining to them that putting you into stressful situations where you've got to adapt and overcome, it doesn't matter if you were trained into, you know, uh, uh, put out a fire, right? You've got chaos going on and you've got to figure out a solution to this problem. Or if you're figuring out how to, how to bake a bunch of pizzas, right? You've got a chaotic situation, you've got to get that team together and adapt to what's happening. And if it's combat, well, we don't know what specific combat you're going to prepare for.

• 3:29:56Jocko Willink?

  I always tell, I told those guys, I said, you know, you know how many urban overwatches Task Unit Bruiser did in our preparation to deploy to Ramadi? In workup? Zero. We did zero urban overwatch positions. And while we were on deployment, we did, I think, a hundred and six of those types of operations. But we just adapted. Okay. Well, here's how you do it in the jungle environment. Here's how you do it in a rural environment. Okay. What are we going to do in this urban environment? We had a couple of guys had a couple of techniques. We hang these things up. We get here. So that's what we're doing. We're trying to teach people to think how to, how to adapt quickly. That you're going to have to look for solutions. The solutions aren't going to be presented to you. You're going to have to figure out what they are. And sub-technology, you're going to use it. It's going to work great. Some of it's not going to work great. You've got to figure out which ones work and which ones don't.

• 3:30:41Jocko Willink?

  The ones that don't work, probably because you haven't figured out how to work it right, you know? Like, we would get, the, the story about the SEAL teams, like if you give the SEAL teams two ball bearings and disappear for an hour, you come back, one's going to be lost and one's going to be broken. Like, that's what we do. So that's the technology. We're going to have problems with it. But if you don't adapt, you, you don't get used to it. You know, the first GPS that I got issued when I got to SEAL Team One was the size of a, you know, a big shoebox and weighed 20 something pounds. And my boss, I said, boss, what am I carrying this for? And they said, well, this will tell you where you're at. And I said, I got a map and compass. I can tell you, I'll tell you where I'm at. I don't need to carry this 25 pound thing. And, and by the way, it took, that first GPS that I had took four hours to find itself.

• 3:31:26Jocko Willink?

  So we would go, it would search one frequency at a time for like 20 minutes, each frequency, looking for a satellite, looking for a satellite. So it would take about four hours for it to figure. Once it figured out where it was, it would continuously track. But, you know, I had to get good with that thing. And once I figured out, oh yeah, well, if I'm out in the ocean and I need to meet up with a submarine, I'm going to need this. Or out in the desert where there's no landmarks for me, I'm going to need this thing. But people are going to have to figure out how to utilize this new technology. And so when you go out there and you push yourself and you train hard and you push yourself to the limit and you make mistakes, all those things allow us to learn. And that's what we got to do. That's what our soldiers, sailors, airmen, marine got to do. Got to push ourselves. Look, it's not going to be exactly what it's going to be like combat. We don't know what combat's going to be like.

• 3:32:10Jocko Willink?

  You know, you didn't know what, you, you found out you're going to Ramadi a month prior, two weeks prior or something like that. Think, we, we got to adapt. We're going to have to figure it out. We trained as hard as we could. We, we pushed our guys. We trained our leaders. We built those relationships. We have trust in each other. So we can go out there and make stuff happen on the battlefield. And, and that's what American troops need to do right now. And obviously that's what you guys are focused on.

• 3:32:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's thinking, I think it's teaching our teammates, like how to think, not what to think. And it's, uh, you know, the, the thing that we, you know, gravitated to in the 82nd, and I've carried it with me ever since, is Rich Clark's guidance to us was to teach and train character and competence will follow. So you're not going to tech your way out of character, you know, that, that, you know, your teammates know, you know, how to, you know, in a crucible moment, choose the harder right over the easier wrong and be able to think through this problem. And have the experience of whatever the workup or training plan or pipeline is provided for you

• 3:33:14Speaker 01

  to get ready for whatever this is. And you pair that with the education that you've garnered, you know, whether in schoolhouse and institution or learning from, you know, reading books and, you know, watching videos and whatever self-preparation you've done gets you to that moment in time where you have to make that decision, that hard call. You've got some other things to, to fall back on that can help you to get it right. Lives are at stake.

• 3:33:38Jocko Willink?

  No doubt, no doubt. Um, well, I know we could talk forever. Um, uh, what do you think's next for you?

• 3:33:47Speaker 01

  Um, I'm, I'm right now the oldest general in the army.

• 3:33:56Speaker 01

  By at least two years.

• 3:33:58Jocko Willink?

  Jack.

• 3:33:58Speaker 01

  At least. So, uh, yeah, that's, yeah, we've been in the army almost, it'll be 39 years in May.

• 3:34:06Jocko Willink?

  Outstanding.

• 3:34:06Speaker 01

  So, so I, yeah, it's, it's most likely my last job.

• 3:34:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, Roger that. Well, you know, the, um,

• 3:34:14Speaker 01

  And Jocko, no one thought this would happen.

• 3:34:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was not the plan. And no one thought it would happen. When we were at Duke in 2013, we bought our retirement home.

• 3:34:26Jocko Willink?

  Oh, really?

• 3:34:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:34:28Jocko Willink?

  Oh, wow.

• 3:34:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. We, and man, we didn't think we were moving no more. And now, now you're, yeah, you'll move another nine times.

• 3:34:38Jocko Willink?

  Well, I hope, uh, whatever you do, I hope it has to do with leadership. I would vote for you in any leadership position that you would apply for or try for. You've got my backing a hundred percent.

• 3:34:50Speaker 01

  Means a lot.

• 3:34:51Jocko Willink?

  So, uh, Echo Charles, you got any questions?

• 3:34:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, I got a quick question.

• 3:34:55Jocko Willink?

  Okay, here we go. Brace yourself.

• 3:34:57Speaker 01

  Let me say first, you don't look like the oldest general.

• 3:35:00Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 3:35:03Jocko Willink?

  A hundred percent.

• 3:35:03Speaker 01

  Can't disagree with that one. There we go. Okay, looking very good. Shining my apple before you ask me something hard.

• 3:35:09Jocko Willink?

  Here comes the bruiser.

• 3:35:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. Let's revisit real quick if you, if we could, um, uh, Shug, so could you clarify real quick why you wanted to fire her? Yeah, I couldn't. She was, uh, she was civilian. I was just a captain. I was like a young, like, didn't really know the situation I'd gotten myself into by moving her workstations around. So she wasn't wrong.

• 3:35:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So Echo Charles, so there's military guys and they'll roll into a position like that for two years. Meanwhile, there's civilians that have been working that job for 10 years, 40 years, 30 years. So now, you know, you roll in there, I've been doing this for 30 years and you roll in there for, and you're going to start telling me like, oh, you should do it like this.

• 3:35:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:35:54Jocko Willink?

  Or what do you think's going to happen?

• 3:35:55Speaker 01

  Or in my case, I don't like the way the furniture is arranged. Okay. So you were just kind of rubbing it the wrong way. Yeah, I didn't, I didn't know any better. Okay. But she didn't give me a break. She's like, I don't care.

• 3:36:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:36:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. You're dead to me. So it was more of a miscommunication. It wasn't, you didn't like go on some official level and be like, hey, I don't think, you know? I moved, I moved her computer, her desk and it drops. It's still kind of going hard. And she's like, well, she comes walking in and the first thing she said is, oh, hell no.

• 3:36:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Echo, imagine if someone rolled in here and told you, hey, you should do the mics like this, put the recorder over there, set the kit.

• 3:36:30Speaker 01

  Some new person.

• 3:36:30Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, new person.

• 3:36:31Speaker 01

  Or even better, they moved them while you were gone. Came in last night.

• 3:36:35Jocko Willink?

  And by the way, and they're only going to be here for a, a little while.

• 3:36:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:36:38Jocko Willink?

  Like this is your job and they're just going to be there for a little while and then you'd be.

• 3:36:42Speaker 01

  I understand completely now. So you kind of had that hate coming to you then? Oh, I did. Yeah, I earned all of it. And you guys made up afterwards? Turned it around. Yeah. She was fantastic to work with.

• 3:36:51Jocko Willink?

  Hugged it out.

• 3:36:52Speaker 01

  Hell, yeah. Um, that's it. That's all I got. I was really wondering about that, you know? No, she was great. Good clarification. She was great. Uh, she was great then. I just, you know, I didn't understand my situation. It's best to do an assessment.

• 3:37:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:37:07Speaker 01

  Figure out what's happening, what's not happening and why.

• 3:37:10Jocko Willink?

  Uh, sir, in the near future, um, as, as much as, you know, we view each other as brothers, we have a football game coming up, do we not?

• 3:37:17Speaker 01

  Yes, we do. Are you going?

• 3:37:20Jocko Willink?

  December 12th, I will be there.

• 3:37:21Speaker 01

  You're going to be there?

• 3:37:22Jocko Willink?

  Yes, I will be there. I will be there.

• 3:37:23Speaker 01

  I'll look for you.

• 3:37:24Jocko Willink?

  And I'm, I don't know if I'm allowed to say this, but I'm going to say it.

• 3:37:28Jocko Willink?

  The, the uniform reveal is coming. I think I'm doing a voiceover for the Navy uniform reveal.

• 3:37:33Speaker 01

  You're late.

• 3:37:34Jocko Willink?

  And, and on top of that, I think the, the uniform that is being revealed is very central to my career. My old job. So we got that going for us, which is nice. There's something else going on with that. There's something else going on with the Army Navy. Oh yeah, we're doing Travis Mills Foundation, or sorry, Travis Mannion Foundation. We're doing Travis Mannion tailgate. So I'll be, I'll be there at that thing, which is always awesome. And yeah, I guess I'll see you there.

• 3:38:04Speaker 01

  You know, Army dropped their uniform yesterday.

• 3:38:06Jocko Willink?

  Did they?

• 3:38:07Speaker 01

  They did.

• 3:38:07Jocko Willink?

  What is it? What is it like?

• 3:38:08Speaker 01

  On Fox NFL Sunday.

• 3:38:10Jocko Willink?

  Nice.

• 3:38:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. So Gronk was the reveal.

• 3:38:14Jocko Willink?

  Oh, really?

• 3:38:14Speaker 01

  Yes. So they had, he's in the uniform. It looks like, uh, it looks like something the University of Oregon would wear. It's all this like tree frog green. It's freaking awesome. But they had the visor on him. So he comes through the crowd. They have a bunch of cadets there. They're doing a Veterans Day thing. And he, he gets up on the stage with, you know, the NFL dudes, you know, Randy Moss and all them. And then he, they hand him a football. I go, who's that wearing the uniform? And he spikes it. And they're like, it's Gronk. Takes the helmet off. Fans go nuts. Yeah, it was big. It was big time.

• 3:38:47Jocko Willink?

  I did an interview. Arnold Schwarzenegger interviewed me and him.

• 3:38:54Jocko Willink?

  You want to talk about like the smallest dude around? You know what I'm saying? You stand next to that guy and you're like, yo, this is, this guy's a different species.

• 3:39:02Speaker 01

  He's a monster.

• 3:39:03Jocko Willink?

  He's a big dude.

• 3:39:04Speaker 01

  Big dude.

• 3:39:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, but that'll be epic.

• 3:39:07Speaker 01

  Looking forward to your reel.

• 3:39:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, I'm looking forward to it too. I actually haven't even seen it yet. I just know I'm making the video.

• 3:39:12Speaker 01

  Oh, it's, it's normally like state secret.

• 3:39:15Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, it's big time.

• 3:39:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I will be at the game.

• 3:39:18Jocko Willink?

  How hyped were you for those games when you were a cadet?

• 3:39:21Speaker 01

  It was everything.

• 3:39:23Jocko Willink?

  Did you guys ever do anything you got in trouble for? Like didn't they steal each other's goats and steal the mule and all that stuff?

• 3:39:28Speaker 01

  I can neither confirm or deny.

• 3:39:31Jocko Willink?

  He's just keeping it tight lipped.

• 3:39:35Speaker 01

  No, I, I, I am aware of some, uh, some thievery of goats and what, there's like a great goat caper theft from my West Point class.

• 3:39:43Jocko Willink?

  Oh, really?

• 3:39:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, some dudes that, oh, man.

• 3:39:46Jocko Willink?

  Did they get in trouble?

• 3:39:47Speaker 01

  Sort of not really, but it was, it was one of these ops that you would be proud of. So they, I don't know if this would be true, this is whatever, that they went down to the Naval Academy, but they went dressed as sailors. And they kind of walked around and hey, can you show us the goats? And they're doing a recon of the, the goat holding area, whatever that is. And then they come back, steal the goats and then they whisk them to New Jersey, you know, it's not close. And they put them on this farm where one of the guys had a cousin that owned horses. And so this, the goats are all at this farm in New Jersey.

• 3:40:30Speaker 01

  And, you know, everybody's losing their minds about what just happened to our mascots and they assume treachery immediately and they're right. So they start hot, hot lighting people and of course, you know, they get a break, you know, they find out that in fact, the goats are alive, they're being held hostage at this location undisclosed in New Jersey. And so New Jersey State Troopers, Naval Academy and West Point veterinarian personnel, MPs, all that. This, but the cousin has been given strict instructions that unless he hears it from his cousin, not to release nothing, they're gonna have to take it by force or something.

• 3:41:11Speaker 01

  So they end up getting everybody back safely, but I think the best caper of all was, uh, it was a year where Navy had a female brigade of midshipmen commander. And the first captain at West Point was a guy. And so she kind of gave him a, hey, I'm in New York City, doing a speaking thing, I'd love to link up with you, have dinner, you know, talk about this Army Navy stuff coming up, so we can just cut through all the BS and there's not a whole bit, they kidnapped him. He met her, damn, in a van, hood over his head, gaunt.

• 3:41:44Jocko Willink?

  Jack.

• 3:41:45Speaker 01

  See you in Maryland.

• 3:41:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, so it's, it's, it's, it's good. It's all healthy.

• 3:41:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:41:53Speaker 01

  And it's, you know, brothers and sisters in arms, the minute, you know, the alma mater's song.

• 3:41:59Jocko Willink?

  It is, it is epic to go see that game.

• 3:42:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:42:02Jocko Willink?

  I've been to the last three or four, you know, it's just very cool to see.

• 3:42:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, we'll be back.

• 3:42:07Jocko Willink?

  So, yeah, we saw you last year, I got a great, we got a great picture, man.

• 3:42:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was my, my son-in-law.

• 3:42:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I know.

• 3:42:12Speaker 01

  That's a large.

• 3:42:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I know, talk about making me feel small. He makes everybody feel small, three-time Olympic gold medalist shot put.

• 3:42:19Speaker 01

  Damn.

• 3:42:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:42:21Speaker 01

  Big boys.

• 3:42:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and he's like, he's cool, his training, his training, he's always doing like super dynamic type of things.

• 3:42:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:42:29Jocko Willink?

  Jumping, throwing, just get, just getting after it, man.

• 3:42:32Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 3:42:33Jocko Willink?

  What a beast.

• 3:42:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:42:34Jocko Willink?

  You're gonna have some mutant kids. I mean, you're gonna have some athletic kids. I mean, you got a, what, professional pole, pole vaulter daughter.

• 3:42:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:42:41Jocko Willink?

  She's a beast.

• 3:42:42Speaker 01

  And she's married to him.

• 3:42:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 3:42:44Speaker 01

  So, yeah, they're people trying to sign NIL right now.

• 3:42:47Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I was gonna say, I want to invest in that scenario right now.

• 3:42:50Speaker 01

  My grandkids that are aforementioned, grandkids that are non-existent, but yeah.

• 3:42:55Jocko Willink?

  Not, no, no grandkids yet, huh?

• 3:42:57Speaker 01

  Well, I have, I have a granddaughter. She's my son and his wife. Yeah, so that's, that is a situation that makes everything right with the world.

• 3:43:06Jocko Willink?

  Right on. Yes, it does.

• 3:43:07Speaker 01

  It is the best.

• 3:43:09Jocko Willink?

  General Clark, any, any final thoughts?

• 3:43:11Speaker 01

  Well, Jocko, I, I just appreciate what you and Echo do because you have a voice that resonates with our soldiers, sailors, airmen, marines and guardians in a way that helps them to, one, really be proud of their service and two, to stay on a path. It's all positive. I appreciate you guys.

• 3:43:34Jocko Willink?

  Right on.

• 3:43:34Speaker 01

  Long time coming, man.

• 3:43:36Jocko Willink?

  Yes, indeed.

• 3:43:36Speaker 01

  It's been about 10 years we haven't been able to figure this out.

• 3:43:39Jocko Willink?

  I know, but here we are.

• 3:43:41Speaker 01

  Thanks for that.

• 3:43:42Jocko Willink?

  Appreciate you joining us once again. Thanks for sharing all those experience, all those lessons learned. If you, if you're not writing a book, um, we'll talk about that later. You should definitely be writing a book about all this stuff. Thanks for your father service, your family service, 60 years as a, as a military personnel. That's pretty awesome.

• 3:44:01Jocko Willink?

  And most of all, thanks for everything you did, you did, your soldiers did, all, everyone in Task Force Red Curry did for my SEALs, from tasking a bruiser in the, on that godforsaken battlefield. Uh, we will never forget their service, their sacrifice. And we will forever be proud to be part of that few, that happy few, that band of brothers. Yes, indeed. Thank you, sir.

• 3:44:26Speaker 01

  Thank you, Jocko.

• 3:44:29Jocko Willink?

  And with that, General Ron Clark has left the building.

• 3:44:34Speaker 01

  Ron P.

• 3:44:35Jocko Willink?

  Looking, what'd you say, youngest looking general?

• 3:44:38Speaker 01

  Youngest looking general. I don't know.

• 3:44:40Jocko Willink?

  Might be the oldest in number wise.

• 3:44:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:44:44Jocko Willink?

  But youngest, because he's getting after it.

• 3:44:47Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 3:44:47Jocko Willink?

  He's a big part of it.

• 3:44:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:44:49Jocko Willink?

  Going hard in the paint.

• 3:44:50Speaker 01

  It's going hard.

• 3:44:51Jocko Willink?

  Running, lifting, training, that's what we're doing. Man, awesome to see him. You know, I've seen him periodically throughout the years. He came to Mikey Monsour's Medal of Honor ceremony at the White House, at the Pentagon, did the ship commissioning here in San Diego. Oh, we did an event before the ship's commissioning, we did like, went out to the first, the 506, they, they put up their memorial war wall. They put Mikey on it, it was awesome. Saw him in Texas recently. Saw him at the Army Navy game, so pretty awesome to be able to see him and just watch him continue.

• 3:45:32Jocko Willink?

  You know, he was a battalion commander back in 2006, 2006. So then he, he had already been in the, in the, he'd been in for 18 years at that point, not including the West Point time.

• 3:45:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:45:45Jocko Willink?

  That guy's been in the Army for a long time, 38 years. He's always been a dependent of the US Army since birth.

• 3:45:53Speaker 01

  Right, right, right.

• 3:45:54Jocko Willink?

  That's legit.

• 3:45:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's an Army man.

• 3:45:56Jocko Willink?

  He's an Army man through and through. So, yeah, what an awesome guy and what an awesome group of people that we got to serve alongside, what an honor that was. Meanwhile, we're getting after it. Uh, if you're getting after it, well, you need fuel. I just drank, um, three quarters of this protein shake right here.

• 3:46:19Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 3:46:20Jocko Willink?

  Vanilla, had the selection, I, I chose vanilla.

• 3:46:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:46:23Jocko Willink?

  You know, just in that kind of melted ice cream. They got a picture of melted ice cream on the cover.

• 3:46:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:46:29Jocko Willink?

  It's accurate.

• 3:46:30Speaker 01

  Appropriate.

• 3:46:31Jocko Willink?

  How it tastes.

• 3:46:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:46:32Jocko Willink?

  Like melted ice cream. Melted ice cream tastes good.

• 3:46:34Speaker 01

  Yes, it does.

• 3:46:35Jocko Willink?

  By the way.

• 3:46:35Speaker 01

  I melt ice cream, by the way.

• 3:46:37Jocko Willink?

  Do you put it in the microwave oven?

• 3:46:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, I mean, not to go too deep into that, but you know, you got the milk right in front of us and yeah, we're gonna do it. Uh, the, uh, you know, when you first get ice cream?

• 3:46:46Jocko Willink?

  Mm-hmm.

• 3:46:46Speaker 01

  It's like hard.

• 3:46:48Jocko Willink?

  Well, it depends on how long it was in the car and the groceries.

• 3:46:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I'm, I'm saying straight out, the groceries, no dilly-dallying, like it's hard, or right out of the freezer, we'll say. It's hard, which I dig, I dig it, not my thing though, see what I'm saying? I put it in the microwave 25 seconds.

• 3:47:03Jocko Willink?

  25 seconds.

• 3:47:03Speaker 01

  And it only melts around the edges, so you can get that soft serve.

• 3:47:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:47:07Speaker 01

  You see what I'm saying? Around the outside and then with that soft serve, it does kind of liquefy a little bit at certain points. That's what you're holding in your hand right there, you see what I'm saying? If you got vanilla.

• 3:47:18Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's real tasty. We just got some, we just got the peppermint chocolate milk, milk powder. And I'm gonna tell you something, I'm gonna tell you something good.

• 3:47:29Speaker 01

  Wait, so peppermint, not the mint?

• 3:47:31Jocko Willink?

  Not the mint.

• 3:47:32Speaker 01

  It's a little up, little.

• 3:47:33Jocko Willink?

  It's a little upgraded and there's something in it that you might not expect, but it's there in full force.

• 3:47:38Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 3:47:38Jocko Willink?

  Marshmallows, the kind of marshmallows that is in Lucky Charms.

• 3:47:42Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 3:47:42Jocko Willink?

  Like it tastes like those. Little marshmallows, kind of like in a Swiss mist.

• 3:47:47Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:47:48Jocko Willink?

  And Swiss mist, a lot of times when you go to a place, they, they mist, mix the Swiss mist with water, no good.

• 3:47:54Speaker 01

  No good.

• 3:47:55Jocko Willink?

  But, um, but the marshmallows are always good, so we got that, what do they call it? What do they call it? Temporary flavor, it's a drop in flavor. It's like, we're making it for Christmas.

• 3:48:05Speaker 01

  Right, right, right. Yeah, the seasonal, seasonal.

• 3:48:07Jocko Willink?

  Seasonal, yeah, it's real tasty. JacoFuel.com, get yourself some of that, get yourself some energy. I have had one, I've had one and a half energy drinks today. I will have the rest of it as we go through this procedure right now. Uh, JacoFuel.com, Joint Warfare, Super Krill, Time War, you know, what are we doing? We're getting after it. You need this stuff. So check out JacoFuel.com, the Warrior Kid Nutrition, by the way. You, you know, when you're a little kid and you just want something that tastes good, you don't even care. Nutrition, you don't even understand what that is.

• 3:48:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:48:41Jocko Willink?

  It has no bearing on the, on the subject whatsoever. When you're seven years old, nutrition is not a part of, it's not even part of the world.

• 3:48:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:48:49Jocko Willink?

  It might as well be, you know, totally absent, right? It's not something you think about. Well, now you can have something that's good. You can get your kids something that's really good for them. And they will just think it's just like, oh, good chocolate, hot, you know, chocolate milk, whatever, fruity cereal. Cool. Tastes great. Vanilla, well, melted ice cream tastes great. Like, that's what you're giving your kids. You get the focus. I've been taking the, uh, the sleep. We have like a little sleep thing for kids, but I gotta take it sometimes.

• 3:49:19Speaker 01

  Wait, what is the sleep thing?

• 3:49:20Jocko Willink?

  Just a little, little sleep gummy. Just helps you relax, you know, helps you look a little bit in relaxed mode. So we got all that stuff and we get a multivitamin.

• 3:49:27Speaker 01

  Remember?

• 3:49:28Jocko Willink?

  For the Warrior Kids. You can get it all at, at jockofuel.com.

• 3:49:32Speaker 01

  Is a multivitamin chewable?

• 3:49:33Jocko Willink?

  Yes, it's a gummy.

• 3:49:35Speaker 01

  Oh, it's a, see, that's a, see, that's a good move right there. Remember back in the day, we're same generation, Gen X, if you will.

• 3:49:41Jocko Willink?

  You can talk Flintstones.

• 3:49:43Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no, there's a different one. There's a different, same era, though. Don't get it wrong. Yeah, like, so you're not, but same era, there are these like vitamin C wafers.

• 3:49:51Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 3:49:52Speaker 01

  They're kind of tangy.

• 3:49:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 3:49:53Speaker 01

  See what I'm saying?

• 3:49:54Jocko Willink?

  Real crunchy.

• 3:49:55Speaker 01

  I used to love those.

• 3:49:55Jocko Willink?

  They shatter in your mouth.

• 3:49:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're like, but they're made of compressed chalk is like kind of that vibe, but they tasted really, really good. Okay. So in our era, if I'm not mistaken, correct me if I'm wrong, that was the closest thing to like a vitamin treat that

• 3:50:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:50:11Speaker 01

  I ever had. We'd have this big jug of them.

• 3:50:15Jocko Willink?

  We got, we got vitamin treats for you now.

• 3:50:17Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Updated, upgraded, the new, new, modern. Oh, yeah. I'm with you. I'm with you. I'm fired up about that.

• 3:50:25Jocko Willink?

  Jockofuel.com. Get yourself some nutrition and get some nutrition for your kids. Turn them into Warrior Kids. Also, originusa.com. You're gonna see, you seen that, have you seen the trailer for the Warrior Kid movie?

• 3:50:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course.

• 3:50:37Jocko Willink?

  Did you see the, did you see the uniform, the jujitsu gis that were being worn?

• 3:50:42Speaker 01

  I did.

• 3:50:42Jocko Willink?

  And the rash guards that were being worn?

• 3:50:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:50:45Jocko Willink?

  You saw that?

• 3:50:46Speaker 01

  Not only did I see that, I was wearing that. And if you look close.

• 3:50:50Jocko Willink?

  Right, I forgot you were in there. Hey, no, I didn't forget.

• 3:50:53Speaker 01

  Okay, good. But speaking of the trailer, if you look close, I'm in the trailer.

• 3:50:57Jocko Willink?

  Yes, you are.

• 3:50:58Speaker 01

  And I am wearing an Origin gi in that.

• 3:50:59Jocko Willink?

  And by the way, you're more in the movie. I monitored very closely the other day. I watched the movie. You are very in the movie.

• 3:51:05Speaker 01

  I'm prominent. Okay.

• 3:51:07Jocko Willink?

  Prominent in one particular scene. In the scene that's in the trailer, you're kind of

• 3:51:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, a little background.

• 3:51:13Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you know, wasn't really feeling it. You know what I mean? Have you ever seen Mike Wazowski from Monsters, Inc.? And they, there, there's like some trailer that they're making and, and the trailer shows for the first time and like Mike Wazowski like is barely in it. And then he's like, oh, my gosh. And the other guy thinks he's gonna be all sad. He's like, I made the trailer. I pictured you watching that thing going, oh, yeah.

• 3:51:41Speaker 01

  That is.

• 3:51:42Jocko Willink?

  I made the trailer.

• 3:51:43Speaker 01

  That is 100% accurate.

• 3:51:45Jocko Willink?

  Accurate, bro. Accurate. Uh, well, you also notice that there's a lot of Origin gear being worn.

• 3:51:50Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 3:51:51Jocko Willink?

  You also might have seen it in the Terminal List as well. Have you watched the Terminal List, season two yet?

• 3:51:55Speaker 01

  I started watching it, yes. So it, I'm to the part when, okay, so it begins, he has this long hair. Actually, I was watching the recap of it.

• 3:52:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Well, you will notice, there's the Keith Jardine, the Dean of Mean Keith Jardine.

• 3:52:10Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 3:52:11Jocko Willink?

  He's, he's wearing a full Origin, like, big insignia shirt. And then Chris is wearing some, you know, there's other people, but there's nothing more prominent than just straight up Origin t-shirt. The reason that Chris Pratt is fired up and Jack Carr is fired up and Jared Shaw's fired up for Origins, because it's 100% made in America. That's why. That's why they're fired up. Because it's 100% made in America. Because we are rebuilding manufacturing capability in America. They're also fired up because it's awesome. The gis are the best, the jeans are the best, the boots are the best. Go to originusa.com and get yourself some 100% communist free gear.

• 3:52:50Speaker 01

  It's true.

• 3:52:51Jocko Willink?

  That's what we're doing.

• 3:52:51Speaker 01

  And here's another litmus test. I used to bring this up before, more about the, the supplements, but it goes for kind of everything. When your kids take it upon themselves to use, utilize the certain things that you own, that's when you know it's good. Kids, and my daughter, she's in the, in the beginning, actually, I'd say right in the middle phase of like trying to be cool. And, you know, she's a teenager now, whatever. But she just took, you know, the Origin, the, it's like a really lightweight kind of windbreaker. I use it for the, for the plane, the black one. She just wears it. She's just leaving with it on. I'm like, bro, I was like, that was mine. She's like, yeah. Like, yeah, it's normal. Yeah, it's yours. It's ours.

• 3:53:29Jocko Willink?

  She's like, you, your gear has been apprehended.

• 3:53:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's ours.

• 3:53:33Jocko Willink?

  Confiscated.

• 3:53:34Speaker 01

  Our gear. But yeah, that's when you know. And she's, she's not wrong. She's right. Actually, she looked kind of cool in it, too. I was like, okay, I see what you're doing. You go, girl. Anyway.

• 3:53:43Jocko Willink?

  Originusa.com.

• 3:53:44Speaker 01

  OriginUSA all day. All right. Don't forget about Jocko Store. We have a new shirt out. Okay, first off, Jocko Store, that's Discipline Equals Freedom, uh, good. Stand by to get some, get after it, right? You want to rep it? And there's other stuff on there, too. It's like all kinds of merch. It's good, good quality, too. Many people have emailed me and told me in person, by the way, these shirts are their favorite ones to wear because not only do they look good, they fit good. Their quality. So, you know.

• 3:54:09Jocko Willink?

  Do you have any kind of a subscription scenario?

• 3:54:11Speaker 01

  We have a subscription area, a scenario called Shirt Locker, called the Shirt Locker new design every, uh, every month. Um, this month's design is a rip on Jack Daniels. Okay. Because, look, I cannot stand here in broad daylight and recommend that you, that it's okay to drink on the path, or even freaking off the path, or in general. I can't recommend that. See what I'm saying? So it's basically a play on that. So instead of drinking whiskey, and Jack Daniel, hey, respect, you know, like, I dig it. They're a company, you know, have a lot of history. I dig it. But as far as drinking goes, instead of the drinking, we replace it with discipline. See what I'm saying? That's kind of the play on that whole thing. Anyway, that's this month's shirt on the Shirt Locker. There's a lot of other

• 3:54:56Speaker 01

  cool designs on there. People seem to like, so good on, um, also about the Shirt Locker, this shirt that I have on right now.

• 3:55:01Jocko Willink?

  All your excuses are lies.

• 3:55:02Speaker 01

  All your excuses are lies. That looks like it's someone wrote it with chalk.

• 3:55:06Jocko Willink?

  Someone did write it with chalk.

• 3:55:07Speaker 01

  Someone did write it with chalk. Yeah, they did, actually. So anyway, that one's available to, to, to the GP, general public.

• 3:55:16Jocko Willink?

  Oh, Gen Pop.

• 3:55:17Speaker 01

  Gen, Gen Pop, yeah.

• 3:55:19Jocko Willink?

  General population.

• 3:55:20Speaker 01

  Yes, to all of us, to everyone, to all. Um, it's available now. Got to restock because when I first released it, sorry, like, hey, this is my bad. I'm still trying to get a handle on these things, you know, inventory, all these official things.

• 3:55:33Jocko Willink?

  It's called having a job.

• 3:55:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, that whole thing. But we restocked them. I know holidays coming up, you know, just keep all these things in mind when you, you know, when you think holiday shopping and all this stuff. But we restocked, we're ready to roll. So it's all on jockostore.com.

• 3:55:49Jocko Willink?

  Good to know. All right, check out books. You know, I've written a bunch of books. You got Put Your Legs On by Rob Jones. You got Need to Lead by Dave Burke. You got Extreme Ownership, Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual is actually awesome. There's an army captain that was here today that had to admit to General Clark that the first book that he ever read on his own was Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual. We were harassing him about that. I was like, hey, man, this is barely, you know, this is, this is barely a book.

• 3:56:20Speaker 01

  He said it was the closest thing to an adult coloring book.

• 3:56:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's what I said. But that's awesome, though. I appreciate that. Uh, yeah, Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual, Leadership Strategy and Tactics Field Manual. And then we've got some more. There's a series of books called Warrior Kid. Have you heard of these books?

• 3:56:35Speaker 01

  I heard good things.

• 3:56:36Jocko Willink?

  So there's a movie coming out. The movie and the books are a little bit different, right? They're a little bit different. The movie is based on the books. The books are, came first. The stories are great, both of them. The book is gonna be really, the kids, kids love this book. It's funny. It's, it's meaningful. It's powerful. It's inspirational. There's definitely some, there's definitely some emotion in it, right? The whole nine yards. So get the books and then go see the movie. And you can be surprised by the little twists, the little, uh, little spin, a little spin, little spin zone. But, and it doesn't go too Hollywood. Because you can go too Hollywood with something.

• 3:57:19Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:57:20Jocko Willink?

  You understand that, right?

• 3:57:21Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 3:57:21Jocko Willink?

  You're like, oh, you know, you can get too, too wild, but this is right in the zone. It's right in the zone. It's right in the zone. Like, you don't want to go too much, too little, you're kind of bored. But right in the zone is where you want it. So there's enough Hollywood in the movie that you're gonna go, hell, yeah.

• 3:57:36Speaker 01

  I agree.

• 3:57:37Jocko Willink?

  And it's also interesting because it skirts like, some of it, you go, that's kind of, that's like a silly moment. And then sometimes you're like, I think I'm about to cry right now.

• 3:57:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. I anticipate that.

• 3:57:47Jocko Willink?

  So there you go. Check out, the Way of the Warrior Kid movie comes out November 25th, global release on Apple TV. So check that out. Also, check out echelonfront.com. If you have problems inside your organization, they are leadership problems. And at Echelon Front, we solve problems through leadership. Go to echelonfront.com. Furthermore, leadership is a skill. It's a skill that you can get better at. It's a skill that you must get better at. And if you want to learn that skill, and you can't come to one of our events, go to extremeownership.com and learn the skills of leadership at home. And if you want to help service members, active and retired, you want to help their families, you want to help Gold Star families, check out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee. You heard about,

• 3:58:28Jocko Willink?

  a little bit about Mark Lee today. He was killed in Ramadi, August 2nd, 2006. And when his mom found out, she almost immediately, well, she immediately was more concerned about us.

• 3:58:45Jocko Willink?

  His teammates than she was about herself and eventually very quickly she decided to make Americas Mighty Warriors.org a charity organization that just helps so many people. So check out Americas Mighty Warriors.org also check out Heroes and Horses.org and then finally Jimmy May's organization Beyond the Brotherhood.org. If you want to connect with us for well, listen, if you want to connect with General Clark, he's a general. So maybe that's not going to happen, but I would recommend you check out USRPAC, that's U S A R P A C dot Army dot mil. This is a website. You can see what USRPAC is doing. You can also

• 3:59:27Jocko Willink?

  check out on Instagram and on Twitter X at USRPAC and these on Facebook as well, US Army Pacific. And for us, check out Jaco.com and then well, you go on social media, but you're probably just going to waste your time. So I wouldn't. If you go on there and you need to spend 30 seconds to see what we're doing, you already know what we're doing. We're lifting, we're training, we're recording. I'm at Jocko Willink, Echo is at Echo Charles, but just don't, don't spend too much time on there. Thanks once again to General Clark for joining us here today. Thanks for all you've done for America, for the Army and for my guys in Task Unit Bruiser. We will never forget your leadership and the gallantry

• 4:00:09Jocko Willink?

  of the troops from Task Force Red Curry. Of course, thanks to all of our other military, military personnel around the globe right now protecting freedom and thanks to all of our veterans as well. With a solemn salute to the soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines who fought alongside us in Ramadi. Also thanks to police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, Border Patrol, Secret Service, as well as all other first responders. Thank you for protecting us here on the home front. And everyone else out there, after almost 40 years, General Clark continues to uphold

• 4:00:53Jocko Willink?

  the standard. You can see the standard, the moral principles, the pride, the selfless commitment, the teamwork. In the military, what's interesting in the military is we get issued a standard. This is the standard, task condition standard. Here's the task, here's the conditions you do it in, and here's the standard you need to uphold. For active duty, for veterans of the military, do you strive to maintain that standard? Ask yourself that. And let me ask you another question. If you weren't in the military, what is your standard? Do you know it? Do you live it? It's a good question to ask yourself. Do

• 4:01:34Jocko Willink?

  you actually have a standard? There are many paths that we can travel. You can travel towards a high standard or a low one. And, and most likely, if you don't have a standard set that you're striving for, you're probably going downhill. You're probably going downhill. You have to know what the standard is and you have to strive to take the high ground. Strive to improve your character. Strive to be better in everything that you do. Strive

• 4:02:16Jocko Willink?

  to live the standard set by those who made the ultimate sacrifice. We should always be striving. And the way that we do that is by getting up every day and getting after it. And that's all we've got for tonight. And until next time, this is Echo and Jocko out.