538: The Legendary Speech on How Leaders Should Lead. Major C.A. Bach Back, 1917.

>Join Jocko Underground Full Episodes< https://www.jockounderground.com/subscribe Breaking down Major C. A. Bach’s legendary 1917 leadership speech and separates timeless leadership truths from outdated doctrine. They cover earning respect instead of demanding it, why confidence comes from preparation, when leaders should apologize, how to avoid becoming a power-tripping boss, and why the best leaders quietly sacrifice for their teams. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 538 with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening. Major Christian Albert Bach, more commonly referred to as Major C. A. Bach. Born in 1870, entered the US Army as a private in the 13th Minnesota Infantry. A little later, by the time he deployed to the Philippines for combat in the Spanish-American War in 1898, he was a sergeant by that time. Fought with the 13th Minnesota on the right flank of the US line during the Battle of Manila, August 13th.

• 0:42Jocko Willink?

  And the right flank became the most contested terrain during that battle. 13th Minnesota suffered the highest casualty rate of any American unit in that battle. He continued to see combat in the Philippine-American War for the next few years after that, where Sergeant Bach was promoted and commissioned to become a second lieutenant. And then after the Philippine-American War, he transitioned to the regular Army, served in the 7th Cav. By the time America entered World War I, Bach was a major. And based on his experiences, combat experience from fighting in the Philippines, he started

• 1:25Jocko Willink?

  off the war, World War I, training cadets that were to become officers and to go into company command. Eventually, he did join the fight overseas. He was awarded the Silver Star, the Army Distinguished Service Medal. And then after the war, he continued to serve in the Army until he retired in 1934, after 36 years of service. He, after retiring, became a military historian. He became an author. He put out some books about the history of war. Specifically, I think his most popular book was about the 4th Division and its, and its achievements in World War I. But the most enduring thing that he passed on...

• 2:07Jocko Willink?

  Was not something actually from his books. It was a speech that he gave to graduating students that were about to become officers or going to command as officers, company command in Fort Sheridan in 1917. So this is right before we got into World War I. He was training officers and he, he gave this speech about the principles that he had learned about leadership when he was in combat. So let's hear how Major C. A. Bach told young leaders to lead.

• 2:44Jocko Willink?

  He says this, "In a short time, each of you men will control the lives of a certain number of other men. You will have in your charge loyal but untrained citizens who look to you for instruction and guidance. Your word will be their law. Your most casual remark will be remembered. Your mannerisms will be aped." I always thought "aped" was like a modern, um, you know, slang word for imitating.

• 3:14Jocko Willink?

  That's what he means. "Your mannerisms will be aped. Your clothing, your carriage, your vocabulary, your manner of command will be imitated." So he goes out of the gate. "You're being watched. You're being watched and the way that you behave is the way your team is going to behave. When you join your organization, you will find there a willing body of men who ask from you nothing more than the qualities that will command their respect, their loyalty, and their obedience."

• 3:46Jocko Willink?

  That's, that's a very, very high bar. Hey, look, nothing more than the qualities that command their respect, their loyalty, and their obedience. They are perfectly, and by the way, I forgot to say this. So this, this speech is something that you can find, you can find little pieces of this speech throughout all, all different, um, areas of military leadership. It's all kind of infused in various organizations, especially in the Army, but it's infused a little bit in the Air Force as well. So a lot of the things might sound a little bit familiar and it's because they're rooted, because this speech became very, very famous inside the military.

• 4:27Jocko Willink?

  They are perfectly ready and eager to follow you so long as you can convince them that you have these qualities. Hey, they'll follow you as long as you're a badass.

• 4:37Jocko Willink?

  When the time comes that they are satisfied, you do not possess them. You might as well kiss yourself goodbye. Your usefulness in that organization is at an end.

• 4:51Jocko Willink?

  From the standpoint of society, the world may be divided into leaders and followers. The professions have their leaders, the financial world has its leaders. In all this leadership, it is difficult, if not impossible, to separate the element of pure leadership, that selfish element of personal gain or advantage to the individual, without which any leadership would lose its value. So what he's saying there is, you know, if you're a banker, there's a certain amount of, what do they call it? Personal advantage, personal gain that you get by being a leader in a bank or in a financial industry or in a trade. You get a certain amount of gain from that.

• 5:31Jocko Willink?

  Then he says, "It is in military service only where men freely sacrifice their lives for a faith, where men are willing to suffer and die for the right or the prevention of a wrong, that we can hope to realize leadership in its most exalted and disinterested sense." Therefore, when I say leadership, I mean a military leadership. Now,

• 5:56Jocko Willink?

  there's a couple of things.

• 5:59Jocko Willink?

  A couple of things to navigate there. Number one, if you think military people, military leaders, don't do things for personal gain, you're completely wrong. And this is, I've talked about that since day one. And if you know anyone in the military, they can definitely tell you about bosses that were looking to get promoted. That's the main thing they're looking for. They're looking to get the best possible situation for themselves, right? So, that's not true. And also, in the civilian sector...

• 6:29Jocko Willink?

  When people do the right things for the right reasons, they will end up more successful. And look, are there, are there people that do bad things? Do the wrong things for, and try and give themselves personal gain? Of course there are. But I'm just saying that exists in the civilian sector and it exists in the military sector as well. And you see it, you get to see it when it falls apart in the civilian sector. Some guy that's been embezzling, some guy that's been, you know, uh, falsifying contracts or falsifying documents or falsifying what they're doing for, from their financial perspective. Or their egotistical trying to make, like, all those things come out and they don't come out when they win.

• 7:13Jocko Willink?

  In most cases, they come out when they lose. Now, look, do some, do people occasionally pull, pull it off? You know, some guy builds up some fake ass company. Or is abusive and just kind of gets it done and makes money? Yeah, it happens. It happens. Eventually, usually they get found out, you know, but, but.

• 7:35Jocko Willink?

  It does happen. So keep that in mind. It's not quite as pure as, as he mentions here. But what he does say, and I will, so, so I'm, I'm going into that one a little bit hard, but he says, "What we hope to realize is leadership in its most exalted form." So he's, he's, he's admitting it too. Like, "We hope to see the pure leadership."

• 7:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's ideal.

• 7:57Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 7:59Jocko Willink?

  Continuing on, "In a few days, the great mass of you men will receive commissions as officers. These commissions will not make you leaders." Well, that's a little news flash there, second lieutenant. "That commission does not make you leader. They will merely make you officers. They will place you in a position where you can become leaders if you possess the proper attributes. But you must make good. Not so much with the men over you as the men under you." Oh dang, okay. Okay, so we in the game now, you know what I'm saying? Hey, it doesn't matter what your boss thinks of you. What do your boys think of you? What do your troops think of you? That's, that's how you become a leader.

• 8:44Jocko Willink?

  It's always interesting because you ever heard somebody talk about we don't you can't get away with it way we used to be able to do things can't leave like that anymore almost in a negative way that's not true like people act like oh when I was you know when I was in somebody got out of line smack him upside the head it's like oh yeah yeah you did that you weren't a good leader you know what I mean even me I did that like I will you know when I was when I was a E5 mafia you know my leadership style was definitely more harsh than it was as I got older more mature and had better examples so the fact that you have to make good with your troops

• 9:25Jocko Willink?

  and earn their respect and earn the position of leadership that's what this is about even in 1917 and by the way he's bringing back you know uh experiences from 1898 like this is old school stuff can I ask you something send it do you remember or know when you first became in charge of other people well in my it was interesting even in my first platoon I was the primary comms guy and so there was one guy that was my guy like subordinate he was my subordinate technically yes and when was this like your first year this is my first when I first got to a SEAL platoon okay

• 10:09Jocko Willink?

  so okay so comms guy what was his position name or whatever he was secondary comms secondary primary primaries okay so so you you had to tell him what to do from time to time oh yeah for sure and he would he wouldn't really tell you what to do so it was it was is was it very like tangible and established that you were his boss yeah that was it was yes it was the chain like you're the primary com guy okay yep 100% okay and then do you remember I guess that might okay do you remember when you were in charge of like more than just one guy like when you got either promoted or you know yeah so I guess once once

• 10:43Jocko Willink?

  You know, when you're a little bit of a fire team leader, which I didn't usually do because I was a radio man. So, you know, my fire team would always have the lieutenant in it. So I'd have an officer in my fire team. So I wouldn't be the fire team leader. So it wasn't really when I got, I guess, when I got to trade at, or sorry, training cell at team one. And we'd go on trips and I would be like, um, in charge of a trip.

• 11:11Speaker 01

  Is that like permanent or is that just part of the rotation? Okay. Okay. That's, that's what I mean. Like where you're like established, like permanent.

• 11:18Jocko Willink?

  And that's the thing I was gonna say, because even, you know, when you're, like you've heard me tell a story about when DC took over the platoon and put me and another guy in charge to run the op, but that's not really what you're looking for. You're looking for like technically, according to by the book, you are now in charge of these individuals.

• 11:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. You're their boss.

• 11:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And even though that happened all the time on a temporary, like, oh, you're running this op or, or you're a, hey, you're in charge of, you know, clearing the backside of this target, or you're in charge of this OP, observation point, like getting put in charge of that stuff a lot. Or like you're the dive supervisor for this dive, or you're the range safety officer for this range. All those things are leading, like, hey, I'm giving the range brief. I'm making sure that everything's squared away. If something goes wrong, I'm in charge on a dive. Like, hey, I'm making sure that everyone's showing up, making sure that everyone's dive regularly expected. I'm in charge of the overall safety. Like, so, you know, you're in charge of things, but to go straight up by the book.

• 12:22Jocko Willink?

  It wasn't really until I got commissioned and I went to team two, and now I'm in a platoon as a assistant platoon commander, and I have a squad of guys.

• 12:32Speaker 01

  Okay. Actually, you know what? This question might, could very well apply to like, even when you're temporarily in charge. So I personally have a very hard time, I have to admit this to myself, telling people what to do, like being their boss, you know? Like, hey, you, you go over here and make sure this is done, you know, like, bro, I feel. Always feel like I shouldn't be bossing nobody around, you know?

• 12:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and I would say even even when I was like the the primary com guy.

• 12:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:00Jocko Willink?

  Bossing people around has never been something that I did much of.

• 13:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:04Jocko Willink?

  It's never really, and you've you've heard me say this when I when I talk about relationships, you know, everything that I did in the military is based on relationships and listening to people, what people have to say. And I was never like, this is what we're doing, boys.

• 13:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:17Jocko Willink?

  Or like, hey, Echo, you need to be here at this time.

• 13:20Speaker 01

  Right.

• 13:20Jocko Willink?

  I'd be like, hey, we're launching around here. When do you guys think we should show up?

• 13:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that's.

• 13:25Jocko Willink?

  And as a matter of fact, I wrote Leadership Strategy and Tactics. I I told a story in Leadership Strategy and Tactics where I, my guys, there was like a guy, guy that showed up almost late, not quite late, and then we forgot a piece of gear. And I told the the E5 Mafia and the leadership of the the platoon, because I was a platoon commander, but I told, you know, like the LPO. I was like, hey, if anything like this ever happens again, I'm gonna run everything. Meaning like I will micromanage everything. And I and I told them, I want to do that, but I'm not going to. I want to. And they were like, we got it, boss. We got it, boss. And we've never had any issue ever again. But but to your point, like, I was never like, okay,

• 14:08Jocko Willink?

  here's what time we're mustering, and here's what gear you need to bring. And, you know, I never did that kind of stuff. I would say like, hey, guys, here's the op we got. What time do you think we need to be here? What, hey, what gear? This is what we're doing. You know, make sure we got the right gear for it.

• 14:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:23Jocko Willink?

  So, you know, I was never really like telling people what to do. And again, does this apply when you're doing an immediate action drill in desert warfare training and you go peel, right? No, that's a different thing. It's like a different scenario.

• 14:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, fully. So I guess my, so, and you're right, though. Now I'm I'm like reflecting now, where even now, you.

• 14:45Speaker 01

  Like sometimes my daughter will be like, oh, uh, something about blah, blah, blah. Your Jocko is your boss and like, I don't, I don't care what she says, but when she says it, it gives me like a very specific feeling like I want to correct her, not because you know, Jocko, no, no, not my boss. It's not that. It's just that it doesn't feel like it. I don't feel like I'm following your orders all the time.

• 15:07Jocko Willink?

  I don't feel like it either.

• 15:08Speaker 01

  I don't feel like I gotta check, you know, so it doesn't feel like a boss scenario.

• 15:11Jocko Willink?

  Well, I don't really consider myself your boss. And you know, I really, the weird thing is, is I don't, even though you, you, like, we just came back from the muster. I use the term subordinate a lot.

• 15:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:22Jocko Willink?

  I don't actually consider anyone to be my subordinate.

• 15:25Speaker 01

  Right. And that's what I.

• 15:25Jocko Willink?

  Which is a weird, which is a weird thing. Like I don't, I don't look at anyone and think, oh, that person's a subordinate to me. I just look at other people and go, oh, they've got this part of the mission. They got this part of the task. I got this part of the task. We're going to work together, cover for each other and make sure that it gets done. Like, that's the way I view everybody. And by the way, even, you know, even no matter where I am, you know, even, even out in, you know, walking around the streets. You know, I don't look at other people like, oh, I have a nicer car than that person. They're subordinate to me. You know, or inferior, inferior. I look at them like, oh yeah, that person's probably doing something cool and probably has some skills that I don't have.

• 16:06Jocko Willink?

  So I don't really consider anyone to be a subordinate.

• 16:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. And it doesn't feel like it. It just feels like back in the, you know, in those days when you get promoted. Okay. Actually, this is more appropriate to when you're temporarily in charge. Actually, now that I'm thinking of it. Cause at one moment you're part of the team that I think that's why, cause I always feel like we're kind of doing the same. Let's say, okay, me and Connor, we'll say, let's say we're going on a, on a video shoot. Actually, this happened. We went on a video shoot. And I got like the camera. I got this other stuff or whatever. And I'm like, Technically, I could carry everything. He wouldn't be carrying it. We have to go down this canyon and all this stuff or whatever. I felt uncomfortable telling him, hey, can you carry this? Cause I know technically I could carry it. So why would I tell him to carry when I can do it? Kind of a thing. It's like I'm bossing him around like I'm this boss.

• 16:54Speaker 01

  It felt very uncomfortable because I see him, we're both kind of making this video. So why would I order him around right now? See what I'm saying? But then, isn't there like an element of that that you have to like overcome? Because it like it, it would help like.

• 17:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. I mean, that's the thing that you prioritize the mission a little bit.

• 17:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:13Jocko Willink?

  But also, it's, it's, you know, you don't say, hey, come over here, grab these three bags and carry them down. You go, hey, man, could you give me a hand with these things?

• 17:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:22Jocko Willink?

  Right? That's not really an order.

• 17:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:26Jocko Willink?

  And, and in fact, if you picked it all up yourself and you started walking, most people that you interact with be like, hey, let me grab one of those bags.

• 17:33Speaker 01

  That's how it is every single time.

• 17:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 17:34Speaker 01

  It was, yeah, I'd go into a thing, but yeah, that's exactly how it turns out. And that's why I know that it's kind of an issue because I'm like, my discomfort for quote unquote bossing people around or telling them what to do or whatever,

• 17:49Speaker 01

  is keeping, is like hindering the like the mission and the efficiency.

• 17:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And again, I don't want to sound like I, I don't want to, I'm not sitting here making a claim like I haven't been like, hey, grab that table over there. You know what I mean? Like, of course, but I would say that to anyone. You know what I mean? Like, I don't care if you were the admiral or you were the, the new guy. If I was like, had to pick up this, this piece of equipment and put it on the pallet, I'd be like, hey, Admiral, can you grab that? You know what I mean? Like, it's not that big of a deal.

• 18:23Speaker 01

  Right.

• 18:24Jocko Willink?

  So I think as long as you're doing stuff for the good of the mission, I think people will recognize that.

• 18:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, I gotta, I gotta.

• 18:32Jocko Willink?

  I'm not like, hey, Admiral, can you load my bags while I sit over here with my feet up? And I'm also like, hey, new guy, can you grab my bags while I sit over here with my feet up? Each of those, those are equally disgusting.

• 18:44Speaker 01

  I understand. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's like a reframe, I guess, cause like.

• 18:50Speaker 01

  I don't know, maybe I'm traumatized, maybe like some old bosses or whatever had that high horse kind of vibe to them, you know, and it's kind of, you know, sometimes you get the impression like, oh, some, this person's telling me what to do in that tone. Just for the sake of like flexing their authority in front of people or something like that.

• 19:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, by the way, like, there are times when you're in charge where you're making the call.

• 19:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:12Jocko Willink?

  Like, I, I, I can think of millions of times where, okay, this is going on, this is going on, this is going on, this is an option, this is an option, this is an option, and I go, all right, do this, and everyone goes, cool.

• 19:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:23Jocko Willink?

  You know, um, usually there's enough time and space where everyone kind of realizes like, oh, there's advantages, disadvantages, we need to go one direction or the other.

• 19:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:32Jocko Willink?

  And when I feel that right there, it's like, okay, here's what we're doing.

• 19:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know what, I'm thinking, and you're laying out these perfect scenarios where I'm like, wow, that's how, you know, that's the jam right there. And when I think in my mind of my pa- the past, I think I'm like vi- envisioning these very real experiences that I've had where I see someone just get put in charge and they turn into a whole different person and start ordering people around and like, you know, with their chin up and just sort of, you know, just quote unquote, run and stuff, you know, like really embracing the boss role. And I remember thinking, probably, I would rather die than look like that, see what I'm saying? So I'm like all scared or whatever.

• 20:10Jocko Willink?

  You're a little gun shy.

• 20:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, or something.

• 20:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, but like I said, I think there's, there's absolutely appropriate times to, to do it, and I think you just need to be aware of that.

• 20:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I think I gotta frame it where like your, your whole vibe comes off just like how you said, where it's kind of like, hey, we're all like doing it, and sometimes, bro, I'll tell you, like, I'm in this position sometimes too, where some of us kind of need direction, since you have a more of a mental grasp on the whole thing, it's like, right, it's best coming from you, you know, it's like, hey, there's a hole right there, can, can you fill that? Oh, perfect, because I was looking for something to fill, see what I'm saying?

• 20:44Jocko Willink?

  For sure.

• 20:45Speaker 01

  Where if you, yeah, I guess I gotta just frame it like that more.

• 20:47Jocko Willink?

  But from the leadership perspective, if I'm running, if I'm telling you what time to show up, what equipment to bring, I'm telling, I'm giving you every possible order that I can, number one, you have no, you don't learn anything, you don't take any initiative, and you're like, well, I'm just gonna wait until Jocko tells me what to do, so that's bad. And then when I really need something? You don't, it's just another, it's, it's order number 49 out of, you know, 50 and who cares? As opposed to like, oh, you kind of figured out what you were bringing. I go, hey, one shot you need to get today is this. You're gonna get that shot. But if I told you to do all these other things and get this other shot too, you're like, I can't be surprised when you weren't able to do it, or you didn't do it, or you didn't understand the priority of it.

• 21:32Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 21:33Jocko Willink?

  It's just the way it is.

• 21:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:36Jocko Willink?

  Carrying on. Men must and will follow into battle officers who are not leaders. But the driving power behind these men is not enthusiasm, enthusiasm, but discipline. They go with doubt and trembling that prompts the unspoken question, what will he do next? Such men obey the letter of their orders, but no more. Of devotion to their commander, of exalted enthusiasm, which scorns personal risk of self-sacrifice to injure his personal safe, safety. They know nothing. Their legs carry them forward because their brain and their training tell them they must go.

• 22:20Jocko Willink?

  Their spirit does not go with them. That's people that are just not good leaders. When people aren't good leaders, there's no, there's no spirit, right?

• 22:31Jocko Willink?

  They're, they're not going to take extra personal risk. They're not going to do more. They'll just kind of do what they're told.

• 22:37Jocko Willink?

  And what are the chances that you as a leader are going to be able to tell everyone exactly what it is they need to do all the way to the nth degree? The chances are zero. They're going to be in situations where they're going to have to change. They're going to have to step up. They're going to have to do more than what you told them to do.

• 22:51Jocko Willink?

  And if you don't have good leadership, they're not going to be able to do it and they're not going to do it.

• 22:56Jocko Willink?

  Continuing on, great results are not achieved by cold, passive, unresponsive soldiers. They don't go very far and they stop as soon as they can. Now he gives the contrary. Leadership not only demands, but receives the willing, unhesitating, unfaltering obedience and loyalty of other men. And in a, and a devotion that will cause them, when the time comes to follow their uncrowned king to hell and back again if necessary.

• 23:30Jocko Willink?

  That's leadership as opposed to following people that aren't leaders.

• 23:38Jocko Willink?

  You will ask yourselves of just what then does leadership consist? What must I do to become a leader? What are the attributes of leadership and how can I cultivate them? Leadership is a composite of a number of qualities. Among the most important, I would list self-confidence, moral ascendancy, self-sacrifice, paternalism, fairness, initiative, decision, dignity, courage. And now he rattles through them. Self-confidence results first from the exact, from exact knowledge. Second, the ability to impart that knowledge.

• 24:19Jocko Willink?

  And third, the feeling of superiority over others that naturally follows. All these give officer poise. Now, it's interesting, um, I'll continue. To lead, you must know. You may bluff all of your men some of the time, but you can't do it all the time. Men will not have confidence in an officer unless he knows his business and he must know it from the ground up. So what's interesting about this is you've heard me say a thousand times, if you don't know how to do something, you don't pretend like you do. And he's saying that, but he's, he's like eliminating the fact that there's might be some stuff you don't know. You know, he's like, you gotta know, you gotta know. And what's interesting is when you talk about confidence, like if you're feeling confident

• 25:03Jocko Willink?

  going into a jujitsu match, what makes you feel confidence? Is it a pep talk? No. Is it a go? Drinking a go before you compete? No. So what gives you real confidence before you compete? You practiced. You practiced hard. You trained hard. You rehearsed. Like those are the things that give you confidence. And by the way, that confidence follows through in leadership because if you have trained and you prepared and you study, you feel confident and people are going to see that and that's a good thing. You know, and again, of course, we're not letting this flow into arrogance, but it is, you know, we're not following people that lack confidence.

• 25:48Jocko Willink?

  We don't like to follow people that are egomaniacs, but we don't want to follow people that are scared and lack confidence. Confidence is a good thing.

• 25:58Jocko Willink?

  The officer should know more about paperwork than his first sergeant and company clerk put together. He should know more about messing than the mess sergeant. More about diseases of the horse than his troop farrier. He should be at least as good a shot as any man in his company. So that's kind of a tall order. And I'm gonna tell you.

• 26:20Jocko Willink?

  I never, I never knew more about admin than my admin people. I never knew more about the logistics than my logistics people. I never was, you know, never, there was always people in a platoon that are gonna be a better shot than you are. So that's, that's, that's a tall task there.

• 26:41Jocko Willink?

  If the officer does not know and demonstrates the fact that he does not know. It is entirely human for the soldier to say to himself, to hell with him. He doesn't know as much about this as I do and calmly disregard the instructions received. Yeah, this is, this is a tough one, man. Like, I'm not, I don't agree with all this.

• 27:01Jocko Willink?

  Well, the way, the way I break this down, the way I've always broken this down is. You ever heard the thing that there's no such thing as stupid questions? Well, there are. Especially if you're in a leadership position. And you have neglected to do the basic groundwork to understand the fundamentals of the situation that you're in. Those are stupid questions. Those are the things that people will lose faith in you. If you're, if you go out and, you know, you shoot your sniper rifle with the sniper. Or you shoot the sniper rifle of the sniper and you don't shoot as well as him. The sniper doesn't go, what a piece of shit.

• 27:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:36Jocko Willink?

  No, he goes, yeah, well, the boss is out here, he's not gonna be as good. If you don't know everything about programming a certain radio. The radio man's like, oh, he's a loser. No, that's not true. So, but if you come out and you see the sniper rifle and you go, what's that? Or you pick up the radio. Yeah, yeah, you know, he's like, what weapon is that? Well, bro, you didn't, you don't even know what sniper weapons we have? Or you pick up a radio and say, what radio is this? Like, I understand you don't know the detailed, how to program four levels into the radio. But for you to pick up the radio, hey, this is good, good UHF radio. Good, it's got embedded crypto in it, great.

• 28:17Jocko Willink?

  Like, knowing the basics, knowing the fundamentals is where, is what you need to do.

• 28:24Jocko Willink?

  And listen, occasionally you're gonna get caught off guard and maybe you have to raise your hand and there's something you don't know, it's okay. But to not, to do that on a regular basis is a problem. And, but, but to think that you're gonna know it more than your radio man, it ain't happening. You think you're gonna know more than your sniper, it ain't happening. You think you're gonna know more than your medic, it ain't happening, man. Those people went to a year-long school to figure that stuff out. You're not gonna be better than them. But, if you've got stupid questions, that shows you haven't even put forth the effort, that's gonna be a problem. Continuing on, "There is no substitute for accurate knowledge.

• 29:08Jocko Willink?

  Become so well-informed that men will hunt you up to ask you questions, that your brother officers will say to one another, 'Ask Smith, he knows.'" And not only should each officer know thoroughly the duties of his own grade, but he should study those of the two grades next above him. A twofold benefit attaches to this. He prepares himself for duties which may fall to his lot during any time in a battle. He further gains a broader viewpoint which enables him to appreciate the necessity for the issuance of orders and join more intelligently in their execution." Totally agree with that. Always know what the next couple levels above you in the chain of command have going on and what their job is. And by the way, I would say two levels down as well, right?

• 29:53Jocko Willink?

  One or two levels down, one, I used to actually teach one level up and one level down. Maybe it's like 1.5 and 1.5. Cause again, you should know how to pick up that radio and make comms with it, but you probably don't know how to troubleshoot it. You should know how to fire some rounds during, you know, on that sniper weapon, but you might not how to, not know how to dope it in. So there's, there's a difference. And up the chain of command, it's like, oh, I can definitely make communications with the overhead assets, get information from them, but I probably don't know how to plan the whole stack of aircraft that are up there. So, like one and a half up and down the chain of command is probably a good spot to aim for.

• 30:37Jocko Willink?

  Not only must the officer know, but he must be able to put what he knows into grammatical, interesting, forceful English. He must learn to stand on his feet and speak without embarrassment. I am told that in British training camp, student officers are required to deliver 10-minute talks on any subject they choose. That is excellent practice, for to speak clearly, one must think clearly, and clear logical thinking expresses itself in definite positive orders. Absolutely.

• 31:08Speaker 01

  So a lot of this stuff, I'm thinking in regards to like my kids, right? And I just thought of this thing, and it can be kids, whatever, but so... You know how your kids will have like arguments, right? Like, hey, I wanna stay up late, or I wanna do a sleepover tomorrow, right? And sometimes we're on the fence about it, like, yeah, you know, I want them to have these experiences, or blah, blah, blah. But it might not be a good idea for XYZ reason, but you're on the fence. If you could do an exercise, actually, I'm gonna do this, I'm like, thinking out loud, kind of.

• 31:42Jocko Willink?

  Make them present an argument?

• 31:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, in front of everybody, see what I'm saying?

• 31:45Jocko Willink?

  Great.

• 31:45Speaker 01

  And then, you know, ask, I mean, look, not like full-on frickin' interrogation mode or nothing, but, but really kind of, you're rooting for them, but ask them some challenging questions, you know, like, hey, what about, you know, hey, I think I'm gonna do that. Cause, bro, I get arguments all the time, not, you know, terrible, but like...

• 32:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there's a lot of, that's great, and I had my kids present cases at times.

• 32:06Speaker 01

  Oh, bro, I kinda like that idea.

• 32:08Jocko Willink?

  They wanna get a phone.

• 32:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 32:10Jocko Willink?

  Present the case.

• 32:11Speaker 01

  Perfect, yep.

• 32:12Jocko Willink?

  You know, and there's a lot of things that you can do that with, very, very helpful.

• 32:16Speaker 01

  So the idea of standing up in front of everyone, to me, is, because my kids are, they'll present their case as of right now, their whole thing is presenting their case, and sometimes I'm like, bro, that's kinda impressive, you know? You know, like, oh, bro, have you ever seen that video? It's, okay, it's a video, it's like a dash cam, you know, not a dash cam looking out, but looking in at the driver and the passenger, and then they had a girl, a daughter... Six, seven years old in the back, they're at a drive thru. And the mom's like, oh, can I get a um, a coffee and this and that? And then so the the mom's in the driver's seat. Doing uh, making the order through the drive thru. And the dad is in the passenger seat and the daughter's in the back. So the the mom says, oh, can I get a coffee and a blah, blah, blah? And then the girl goes from the back, she goes, oh, can I get a cookie?

• 33:01Speaker 01

  And then the mom goes, mom goes, no, honey, we have a cookie at home. And then the dad's just kind of looking at the drive thru and the girl goes, well, we have coffee at home. And the dad, you look at the dad go in the passenger seat, he's like.

• 33:16Speaker 01

  Bro, he had no, you know, he's kind of like, bro, she has a point. He kind of made that gesture. And then the lady's like, she's thinking about it. And she didn't get mad, props, sir. She didn't get mad, she's like thinking about it a little bit frustrated, but she's like, she pauses and she goes, and can I get a cookie too?

• 33:30Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 33:31Speaker 01

  See what I'm saying? It's like, bro, kids will have an argument, but if you can add that little layer of talking in front of people and making a clear case, see what I'm saying? While you're talking, that's good.

• 33:42Jocko Willink?

  Cause there's that whole thing with uh, you know, public speaking is one of the biggest fears or whatever phobias. So you can help them get over that, the young age can be very helpful.

• 33:49Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, I like it.

• 33:52Jocko Willink?

  Continuing on, while self-confidence is the result of knowing more than your men, moral ascendancy over them is based upon your belief that you are the better man. Again, this is kind of opposite of what I just said, you know, I don't. I don't see. I don't see other people as like subordinates or or inferior, you know? Um, and I, but I think I, I think I get where he's coming from and I'll get to in a minute. He says, to gain and maintain this ascendancy, you must have self-control, physical vitality, and endurance and moral force. You must have yourself so well in hand, even though in battle you will be scared stiff, you will never show fear.

• 34:37Jocko Willink?

  For if by so much as a hurried movement or a trembling of the hands or a change of expression or a hasty order hastily revoked, you indicate your mental condition, it will be reflected in your men to a far greater degree.

• 34:55Jocko Willink?

  So I think what he's doing there is he's setting them up. You ever, you ever had like a coach or, or, or a parent say like, you're better than that?

• 35:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:08Jocko Willink?

  I think that's what he's setting up is like, hey, be better than that.

• 35:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:12Jocko Willink?

  Be like behave in a way, you know, this is actually something I tell young military people. Like when you're part of this unit, you represent this unit. And everything you do, people look at it, at what you do and how you behave. And they put that on this whole unit, including by the way, guys that died.

• 35:41Jocko Willink?

  Act accordingly is what I tell them, act accordingly. And so that's what he's saying. I think you have to be careful. Obviously you're walking around thinking you're better than other people. That's terrible, but to elevate yourself to say, hey, you're better than that. You need to behave to the highest possible standards.

• 35:57Speaker 01

  Standard. Exactly. Yeah, that's all I got. I mean, you know, let's face it, this is old school. You know, so the presentation might not be as, you know, finely tuned as it could be like today or whatever. But yeah, the, if you do, yeah, like take that, taking the high road, holding yourself to a high standard. Because hey, bro, people are looking, you gotta, you know, you gotta kind of set the example. So make sure that example is high standard. So you're saying like, it feels like, yeah, I feel like that, that checks out there.

• 36:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And, and one thing he says that he gets to later, you know, unless you, he's saying like, oh, you know, you need, don't change your order, but he talks about later, like when you make a mistake, you have to change. So don't get, you don't want to get locked into something just because you said it. Now that's what we're doing.

• 36:38Jocko Willink?

  Continuing on, in garrison or camp, many instances will arise to try your temper and wreck the sweetness of your disposition. If at such times you fly off the handle, you have no business to be in charge of men. For men in anger say and do things that they almost invariably regret afterwards. Boom. Don't lose your temper. An officer should never apologize to his men. Also, an officer should never be guilty of an act for which his sense of justice tells him he should apologize. So, I mean, I totally disagree with not apologizing. I think when you mess up, you should absolutely apologize. That being said, it's almost like a, it's almost a trick, right?

• 37:21Jocko Willink?

  He said, you should never apologize because you should never do anything where you have to apologize. But hey, since we're not perfect, if you do screw up, you should absolutely apologize. And I've heard that today. I've heard, I heard people say that. Never apologize. Like, you should never have to apologize to your kids, or you should never have to apologize to your team. Like, I call bullshit on that. You make a mistake, apologize. Hey, I screwed this up.

• 37:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, it feels like a lot of times the, the no apology, or um, you know, you, you gotta know everything or whatever. Because, you know, a lot of us, like, we kinda need, if we're gonna follow somebody, we need an element of consistency there. You know, you don't need some wishy washy, you know, person that doesn't know what they're doing. So, it's, it's almost like they're trying to maybe over-index on that, that element of perfection. Like, you gotta stay, you know, and even if you mess up, which we all do, it's like, you can't let them see you sweat. You can't, you know, it's like, almost like that vibe.

• 38:13Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, gotta be careful with that. It comes out so much better when you just, when you screw up. Everyone sees when you screw up. They see, it's not like they don't see it. They see it. So just apologize, take ownership and move on. Another element in gaining moral ascendancy lies in the possession of enough physical vitality and endurance to withstand the hardships to which you and your men are subjected, and a dauntless spirit that enables you not only to accept them cheerfully, but to minimize their magnitude. That's legit. You gotta be in freaking shape. You gotta be able to handle it physically. Not only so that you can accept it gleefully, but you're like, no factor. You can minimize its magnitude.

• 38:55Jocko Willink?

  This is a great one. Make light of your troubles, belittle your trials, and you will help vitally to build up within your organization an esprit whose value in time of stress cannot be measured. So, you got some big problem going on? No factor.

• 39:12Speaker 01

  You like that one, huh?

• 39:13Jocko Willink?

  I do like that one.

• 39:15Speaker 01

  It's like, you know, I always refer mentally back to the jujitsu incident. Where I like, I was trying to cross my leg over or whatever and I kicked you in the face. Hard. Like it was a straight up strike to the face. To the point where I had to say, oh, I was like, oh, wait, pause the roll. You know, like, are you okay? You're like, what, what happened?

• 39:35Speaker 01

  You didn't feel it. Didn't even notice it happened. Okay. All right. That's some cool stuff.

• 39:39Jocko Willink?

  We're not, we don't notice that. We're not admitting. What is your, is your heel okay?

• 39:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 39:44Jocko Willink?

  Is your shin okay?

• 39:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. What happened? You said your heel hit something? Are you good? Cause yeah.

• 39:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. I caught a couple, uh, I caught like legit, like two freaking hardcore knees to the face.

• 39:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, I saw that.

• 39:58Jocko Willink?

  From Noah, by the way.

• 39:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, makes sense.

• 40:00Jocko Willink?

  Last round scenario. So it was, you know, all right, last one. I think we did 10 rounds. It was, it was getting crazy and everyone was getting kind of nuts. But it was, but you know, towards the end, everyone's kind of like de-escalated a little bit, but then I'm like, you know, I'm all right, last round, boys. And but it was, you know, the little flashes you get?

• 40:22Speaker 01

  Oh, when you get hit?

• 40:23Jocko Willink?

  When you get hit?

• 40:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 40:24Jocko Willink?

  I got one and then I kept going, got another one.

• 40:28Speaker 01

  Double.

• 40:29Jocko Willink?

  And then I felt blood and I was like, oh, I really hope I was hoping it wasn't a cut. It wasn't a cut. It was just a bloody nose. But I had a pretty good shiner.

• 40:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:36Jocko Willink?

  Thanks Noah. Good job. Uh, but I tried to make light and kept, you know, I couldn't keep going because now I was bleeding, you know? And you want to get blood all over the mat and the whole nine yards. But yeah, if as much as I can, I'm going to belittle my trials.

• 40:49Speaker 01

  Good idea.

• 40:51Jocko Willink?

  Moral force is the third element to gaining moral ascendancy. To exert moral force, you must live clean. You must have sufficient brain power to see the right and the will to do the right. Be an example to your men. I think that's what that all boils down to. You know, there's a, we have to watch out, you know, we have to watch out that we're not believing that we're better than people. Cause a lot of this, if you, if you have the wrong personality, you're going to take this and like, uh, the person that, you know, you go to the, you go to the restaurant and you know, you order, uh, you order a steak and Caesar salad and then you got someone else and they order a steak and Caesar salad, but then they pull out the croutons. And you're eating the croutons?

• 41:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:37Jocko Willink?

  And they think they're better than you as a human. You know what I mean?

• 41:40Speaker 01

  Yes, I do.

• 41:41Jocko Willink?

  They're like, oh, uh, type two diabetes much?

• 41:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 41:44Jocko Willink?

  Like, well, that, that, we gotta watch out that we're not taking all this stuff to where we feel like we're better than other people.

• 41:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, fully, Brad. And that's like, and that example even is actually, I mean, that was a fun example, you know, the croutons. But even that example is impactful. So again, we'll go back to the kids real quick. So I know a person that we know, I'm not gonna say his name. He, um, he's a fitness guy. He was into, you know, fitness and stuff. Um, and he'll compete in certain things. Uh, so in preparation, I think it was in preparation, like, you know, the family would go eat dinner and he had a young daughter. And so when he would eat dinner, his dinner was different than the rest of the family's dinner. And the daughter, unbeknownst to him, felt this overwhelming guilt that, you know, cause he's obviously eating the correct stuff. She's eating the incorrect stuff.

• 42:35Jocko Willink?

  He's eating broccoli and a skinless chicken breast.

• 42:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly right. And to the point where the daughter wound up having a slight, like, disorder from it as a result. And she admitted this later or whatever. And yeah, so you think, you know, like, no, no, no, I'm not pressuring nobody. I'm just doing my thing or whatever. But Brad, you can kind of give off that vibe if you're not careful.

• 42:57Jocko Willink?

  And people can smell that vibe. People can smell your intent. And if you in your heart believe that you're better than them, you got a problem. Like you got a problem, man. It's gonna be problematic. You know, if we're out at the bar. Yeah, hey, man, like, like even when, when I go out somewhere, right? And people are drinking alcohol, which I totally disagree with, drinking alcohol. I don't, I literally do not think I'm better than them. You know what I mean? I'm not like, I'm like, oh, they're, they're, you know, they're gonna have a good time and I, you know, probably not thinking too much about the future, but they're living in, in the moment. Props to that. You know what I mean? I don't think I'm better than them.

• 43:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:34Jocko Willink?

  And that is definitely something that can happen. So that's what this whole, like a lot of this list right here, you have to watch out for. Because even when I think I know, you know, you know, what's a classic example, actually? Jiu Jitsu.

• 43:49Jocko Willink?

  Jiu Jitsu, when I am better than someone at Jiu Jitsu, and I've told this to many people, when you're better than someone at Jiu Jitsu, you're not a better person. You've just trained a little bit more Jiu Jitsu than them. You know what I mean? It doesn't make you better, you're not a better human, you're not a better athlete. They just, you've just been training longer than somebody. And that's, that's a very good thing to keep in mind. You know, people are in various stages of their ascension.

• 44:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. In that particular thing.

• 44:15Jocko Willink?

  In that particular thing, which you or they may or may not care about, by the way. They may not care. You know, at the muster I was talking about, uh, bowling.

• 44:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 44:25Jocko Willink?

  Cause Dave Burke beat me in bowling, you know? But I was talking about in different ecosystems, people judge things differently. And one of the things, you know, in, in, well, in every ecosystem, they have different things that they judge differently, right? The, you know, I brought up if you're a biker and you've done time, it's kinda like more respect. If you're a banker and you've done time, it's like your respect goes down, you might not even have that job anymore. And depending on what ecosystem you're in, oh, you know, people really care about. And I was like, bowling is one of the examples I brought up. And then I remembered as I was on stage, I remembered that Dave Burke and our families together went bowling.

• 45:05Speaker 01

  Hell yeah.

• 45:06Jocko Willink?

  And Dave beat me in bowling.

• 45:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, hell yeah.

• 45:08Jocko Willink?

  And, you know, I'm like, if there's, beating, being beaten in bowling is really, I don't know what's at the bottom of my list that I care about. But it's way down there, you know what I'm saying? It's way down there. It's way down there, but, you know, but if someone's into bowling, like they're like, oh, this guy's that good at bowling. Whereas I literally don't care at all. Not in what, not in no part of my brain, any part of my brain do I say, damn, like, respect.

• 45:39Speaker 01

  What was your score?

• 45:40Jocko Willink?

  I have no idea. I have no idea. Dave was, Dave was, uh, beating me. And he beat me, yeah.

• 45:49Speaker 01

  Hey, real quick.

• 45:50Jocko Willink?

  My wife's good at weird stuff. Like, I think she, she'll, she's good at like, uh, billiards, like pool.

• 45:57Speaker 01

  Oh, pool.

• 45:58Jocko Willink?

  She, she, she had a, in, in England, they have a game called snooker.

• 46:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, snooker.

• 46:02Jocko Willink?

  So she's, she played snooker all the time growing up. She plays darts. She'll like beat you at weird stuff. Or she'll try to.

• 46:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:10Jocko Willink?

  Until you have to go aggro.

• 46:12Speaker 01

  It's kind of respect darts dude.

• 46:14Jocko Willink?

  Oh yeah, darts she'll crush. She's a Brit, you know.

• 46:17Speaker 01

  Why? That's all.

• 46:18Jocko Willink?

  Oh yeah, they go in a pub and play darts like it's going on a style.

• 46:22Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, I remember American Werewolf in London. That was like a big thing.

• 46:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, darts. Or, uh, uh, what's the soccer TV show right now on Apple TV?

• 46:32Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 46:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, it's in there too.

• 46:35Speaker 01

  Um, real quick, back to the.

• 46:37Jocko Willink?

  Famous dart scene.

• 46:38Speaker 01

  Oh, on the, on this show?

• 46:39Jocko Willink?

  Yes, on the show.

• 46:41Speaker 01

  Okay, I didn't know that. Um, back to belittling your own trials. So that can help yourself even as an individual in life too.

• 46:49Jocko Willink?

  For sure.

• 46:50Speaker 01

  By the way, and actually probably more.

• 46:54Speaker 01

  I remember when I first got wind of that where I was in, it was my third, second, third Jiu Jitsu tournament. Dean Lister was coaching me first match of the, of the tournament. And I was like, we were kind of battling with this guy, Chris, we know him. He, I haven't seen him for a few years. But anyway, he, um, we're going, we're battling back and forth and I was kind of getting tired. So my pace started to slow down and Dean Lister's, you know, he's coaching me up or whatever. And he goes, he goes, you're not tired. And bro, I just became not tired all of a sudden. Because it's true, because I kind of like allowed myself to accept it that, oh, I was getting tired. So I let me slow down my pace, you know, kind of a thing. But I was not even nearly as tired as I probably in real life was, you know?

• 47:38Speaker 01

  Where it's like, it was that mental gray area where you have the choice to accept or reject, you know?

• 47:43Jocko Willink?

  Reject.

• 47:44Speaker 01

  Exactly, right? Probably little that, probably.

• 47:46Jocko Willink?

  Little that.

• 47:49Jocko Willink?

  Continuing on, an officer can be a power for good or a power for evil. Don't preach to them. That will be worse than useless. Live the kind of life you would want them to lead and you will be surprised to see the number that will imitate you. A loud mouthed, profane captain who is careless of his personal appearance will have a loud mouthed, profane, dirty company. Remember what I tell you. Your company will be the reflection of yourself. If you have a rotten company, it is because you are a rotten captain.

• 48:25Jocko Willink?

  Self-sacrifice is essential to leadership. You will give, give, all the time. You will give of yourself physically for the longest hours, the hardest work, and the greatest responsibility are the lot of the captain. He is the first man up in the morning and the last man at night. He works while others sleep. Boom.

• 48:49Jocko Willink?

  You will give of yourself mentally in sympathy and appreciation for the troubles of men in your charge. This one's mother has died and that one has lost all his savings in a bank failure. They may desire help, but more than anything else, they desire sympathy. Don't make the mistake of turning such men down with a statement that you have troubles of your own. For every time you do that, you knock a stone out of the foundation of your house. Your men are your foundation and your house of leadership will tumble about your ears unless it rests securely upon them. Finally, you will give of your own slender financial resources. You will frequently spend your own money to conserve the health and well-being of your men

• 49:34Jocko Willink?

  or to assist them while in trouble. Generally, you get your money back. Very frequently, you must charge it off to profit and loss. Even so, it is worth the cost. That's it, man. Self-sacrifice, and you know what? This is one of those things where everybody notices it and the one way you can diminish it is by chiming in about it.

• 50:02Jocko Willink?

  You know what I'm saying? Like if I say, dude, I had to stay here until midnight last night. Like you, you already know. Like you showed up to work in the morning and the things that had to get done that weren't done when you left and you knew how much time they take and you show up and they're done.

• 50:17Jocko Willink?

  You know it. You know I at least stayed till 10, maybe 11. You might not know that, but I want that last little bit of credit for midnight. The worst, the best way to diminish the credit you want is to ask for the credit you want. Keep your freaking mouth shut. And whether that's the physical, like, well, I was actually carrying this much weight on that. Or whether it's the mental, well, you have no idea what it's like answering to the, to the headquarters all day. Or the time, well, I had to come in even earlier than you did. No matter what the thing is that you want that little bit of credit for, don't ask for it. Hide it, freaking hide it if you can. You can't hide it, though. They're gonna know. Just have faith that they're gonna know and everything's gonna be okay.

• 51:04Jocko Willink?

  The next one is paternalism. When I say that paternalism is essential leadership, I use the term in its better sense. I do not now refer to that form of paternalism, which robs men of initiative, self-reliance, and self-respect. I refer to the paternalism that manifests itself in a watchful care for the comfort and welfare of those in your charge. Soldiers are much like children. Sorry there, my, my army brethren. Soldiers are much like children. You must see that they have shelter, food, and clothing, the best that your utmost efforts can provide. You must see that they have food to eat before you think of your own, that they each have as good of a bed as you provide, before you consider where you will sleep.

• 51:46Jocko Willink?

  You must be far more solicitous of their own comfort than your own. Solicitous of their own comfort than your own. You must look after their health. You must conserve their strength by not demanding needless exertion or useless labor. Team comes first. And by doing all these things, you are breathing life into what would be an otherwise, what would otherwise be a mere machine. You are creating a soul in your organization that will make the mass respond to you as it, as though it were one man. That is a spree.

• 52:21Jocko Willink?

  And when your organization has a spree, you will wake up some morning and discover that the tables have been turned. That instead of you're constantly looking out for them, they have, without even a hint from you, taken up the task of looking out for you. You will find that a detail is always there to see that your tent, if you have one, is properly pitched. That the most and cleanest bedding is brought to your tent. That from some mysterious source, two eggs have been added to your supper when no one else has any. That an extra man is helping your men give you a horse, give your horse a super grooming. That your wishes are anticipated, that every man is Johnny on the spot. And then you have arrived.

• 53:08Jocko Willink?

  And you've heard me say, take care of your people and your people will take care of you. And that's exactly what that is. It's exactly what that is. You take care of your people, they're absolutely going to take you, take care of you, and they're going to do it with pride.

• 53:25Jocko Willink?

  Next.

• 53:27Jocko Willink?

  You cannot treat all men alike. A punishment that would be dismissed by one man with a shrug of the shoulders is mental anguish for another. A company commander who, for a given offense, has a standard punishment that applies to all, is either too indolent or too stupid to study the personality of his men. In his case, justice is certainly blind. And this is, I, oftentimes,

• 53:55Jocko Willink?

  I would have guys that would do something stupid. And I didn't need to do any punishment to them. Like, I literally didn't need to do anything. They were punishing themselves. You know, they were

• 54:07Jocko Willink?

  horrified by what they had done. And, but what you gotta be careful of, then other people that are like, whoa, man, he kinda got a slack. Do you, Jocko doesn't care about that. So you'd have to find how you talk about it. So that everyone understands that a grievous thing happened, and it can't happen again. But at the same time to like, mutilate a guy's soul when he's already freaking feeling terrible himself.

• 54:34Speaker 01

  Right. It's like the, um, It's like this idea of like punishing somebody for almost like revenge versus like actual rehabil- like solving a problem. See what I'm saying? Like if, yeah, if you can tell the guy is so beat up internally because of the shame and the embarrassment, the this and the anticipation of getting fired, like just going through something psychologically and you can tell, it's, it's kinda like, okay, like we can kinda rest assured this guy learned his lesson, kind of a thing. But if you're like, no, no, no, he needs some kinda like pain that I inflict on him. It's like different.

• 55:09Jocko Willink?

  It's like your own ego.

• 55:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. It's like, it's, it's the difference between doing it for like the group and the, and the system versus like making it about yourself, kind of a thing.

• 55:17Jocko Willink?

  Not good.

• 55:18Speaker 01

  How do you feel about, um, like group punishment?

• 55:22Jocko Willink?

  Collective punishment is what they call it.

• 55:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 55:24Jocko Willink?

  Uh, it depends. It depends. There are times when it's, when it's necessary. There are also times when it's stupid. Um, and it just depends on the situation, you know? Like occasionally, and sometimes it, sometimes it elevates to collective punishment, meaning like, okay, this guy got in trouble and now this guy got in trouble. And hey, listen, if one more guy gets in trouble, you're all gonna pay. You see what I'm saying? Like one guy forgets a piece of gear, cool. You know, that guy's gonna show up an hour early for the next two weeks. Another guy forgets a piece of gear, okay, that guy's throwing up. By the way, next time this happens, everyone's showing up. You see what I'm saying? So sometimes

• 56:05Jocko Willink?

  like the group needs to police itself. And if the group isn't policing itself, then I gotta police the group. See what I'm saying?

• 56:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:12Jocko Willink?

  Because we're, our goal is that the group, the gang polices itself is what the goal is. The gang polices itself. That's what generally happens. That's why, you know, when I was a platoon commander, I was a tasking commander, I didn't have to go and police the group when someone showed up late. I didn't have to say a damn word. It was getting handled. Someone forgets a piece of gear, I didn't need to go and do a gear inspection. It was getting handled. So.

• 56:38Jocko Willink?

  It didn't really ever, usually things for me did not elevate to group punishment. I did tell that story with my guys that almost showed up late and forgot a piece of gear. And there was a little bit of a spotlight on us for what we were doing at the time. And so unacceptable. And that's why I escalated immediately to a threat of like a group punishment, which was me running things. Cause when I'm running things, bro, it's a whole, it's, it's, it's on, you know? You wanna talk about showing up early, bro? We're doing dry rehearsals for the rehearsals. To rehearse.

• 57:12Speaker 01

  Dig it.

• 57:12Jocko Willink?

  See what I'm, see what I'm saying? They did not, the look, uh, the look, uh, that was a great group of guys, but I remember the, uh, the, uh, acting leading petty officer at the time. And who's a great dude who I always had a great time with and did a great job in combat. But I remember the look on his face when I said like, I'm gonna run this. You, you could see he was like, dude, we do not want this. We did not want this at all. He was like, he was like, hey, hey, boss, boss, we got it. We got it. Won't happen again. Won't happen again. And probably a week before this.

• 57:43Jocko Willink?

  I had said like, hey, let's get here tomorrow, like, I don't know, six thirty. And he was like, how about six forty-five or something like that? And I go, bro, you trying to squeeze fifteen minutes of liberty out of me?

• 57:55Speaker 01

  That group punishment, I, I, at first. I always thought that, hey, I think this is like abuse, like you shouldn't do this because it causes like, um, secondary like problems. So like everybody, okay, Pop Warner football.

• 58:09Speaker 01

  You, we, uh, we do, um.

• 58:11Jocko Willink?

  What was the name of your team?

• 58:12Speaker 01

  The Clor Rams.

• 58:14Jocko Willink?

  The Rams.

• 58:14Speaker 01

  And then Clor Raiders when you move up to midgets, it's Pee Wees and midgets. Anyway, so we did this drill where we're doing sprints, but it's, when you do sprints in football, sometimes they wanna condition you mentally as well. So, um, you know, the count, right? Set, down, hut, hut, hut, right, that's football. So the first hut is one. Second hut is two. So sometimes the count will be like on two. And if you go on, if you do a fault, it's a false start if you don't go on the correct thing, right? If it's on two, you say set down hut and someone jumps, that's jumping off sides or a false start, right? So it's to, it's to train you with that as well. So if the quarters, quarterback says, hey, in the huddle, hey, it's on three.

• 58:55Speaker 01

  You, you guys gotta focus, you know, cause it's, once you hear the first hut, it's almost automatically you go. You see what I'm saying? So you can run into that issue. So you train it in practice. But they train it in practice when we do the sprints for conditioning. So you're kind of physically, you see what I'm saying? You gotta lock in, bro. So if someone keeps jumping offsides and every time someone jumped like of the whole team now, you got freaking however many 60 guys or whatever lined up across the whole field and we're all doing sprints for conditioning and mental training. So if one guy jumped, anytime they see the one, it's like, okay, the coach goes, okay, it's on three. Everyone's already ready. All right, bro. Someone's gonna jump of the whole team. No one's gonna jump, bro. Impossible, right? So we're all like, fuck. And if someone jumps, now we gotta back up five yards.

• 59:38Speaker 01

  So now the sprint is five yards. You see what I'm saying? So it's like, oh my gosh, it's very stressful. So anyway, if the same guy starts jumping offsides too much, like if he does two, three in a row, people start getting mad, right? But it messes with the guy. So now he can concentrate even like it's hard. It's like a compounding thing for that guy. So after a while, the coach is like, all right, bro, freaking everybody do pushups. Everybody, but the except for the guy who jumped offside, you gotta watch. So everyone like hates him. I remember thinking, hey, that's, I see what you're doing. But now even when we're done with conditioning, everyone hates that guy now. We're less of a team. See what I'm saying? But when you think about it, like one more step, it's kind of like, no, no, no.

• 1:00:19Speaker 01

  Your lack of focus, your shortcomings are affecting the whole team. The whole team has to go five yards back, not just you. See what I'm saying? So you gotta lock in. It's kind of trains you. And plus, and everyone being mad at you is part of the punishment, but psychological and social. See what I'm saying? It's not like

• 1:00:37Jocko Willink?

  That's like in Full Metal Jacket when he gets caught with the donut and everyone else is doing pushups and he's just eating the donut. You know what I'm saying?

• 1:00:45Speaker 01

  Exactly, man.

• 1:00:46Jocko Willink?

  Collective punishment.

• 1:00:47Speaker 01

  I dig it. Yeah.

• 1:00:48Jocko Willink?

  There is a time for it.

• 1:00:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that's, that's what, I think that's spot on how you're like, hey, if there's, if you're doing it through a very specific methodology like for, for a reason. Yeah, yeah, makes sense to me.

• 1:01:02Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. Study your men as carefully as a surgeon studies a difficult case. When you are sure of your diagnosis, apply the remedy and remember that you apply the remedy to effect a cure, not merely to see the victim squirm. That's what you were talking about. It may be necessary to cut deep, but when you are satisfied as to your diagnosis, don't be diverted from your purpose by any false sympathy for the patient.

• 1:01:27Jocko Willink?

  Hand in hand with fairness and awarding punishment walks fairness and giving credit. Everybody hates a human hog. When one of your men has accomplished an especially credible piece of work, see that he gets the proper reward. Turn heaven and earth upside down to get it for him. Don't try and take it away from him and hog it yourself. You may do this and get away with it, but you have lost the respect and loyalty of your men. Sooner or later, your brother officers will hear of it and shun you like a leper. In war, there is enough glory for all. Give the man under you his due. The man who always takes and never gives is not a leader. He is a parasite.

• 1:02:06Jocko Willink?

  There's another kind of fairness. That which will prevent an officer from abusing the privileges of his rank. When you exact respect from soldiers, be sure to treat them with equal respect. Build up their manhood and self-respect. Don't try to pull it down. For an officer to be overbearing and insulting in the treatment of enlisted men is an act of a coward. He ties the man to a tree with the ropes of discipline and then strikes him in the face, knowing full well that the man cannot strike back.

• 1:02:38Jocko Willink?

  Consideration, courtesy and respect from officers toward enlisted men are not incompatible with discipline. They are parts of our discipline. Without initiative and decision, no man can expect to leave, to lead. So what, I mean, this is just obvious. And again, people think, oh, back in the old days, they were so hardcore and there's no, here's a guy, pre-World War I, this, this document is pre-US involvement in World War I, and he's saying, do not insult, do not be overbearing. Treat people with respect.

• 1:03:13Jocko Willink?

  In maneuvers, you will frequently see when an emergency arises, certain men calmly give instant orders which later on analysis prove to be, if not exactly the right thing, very nearly the right thing to have done. You will see other men in an emergency become badly rattled. Their brains refuse to work, or they give a hasty order, revoke it, give another, revoke that. In short, show every indication of being in a blue funk. Regarding the first man, you say, "That man is a genius. He hasn't had time to reason this thing out. He acts intuitively." Forget it. Genius is merely the capacity for taking infinite pains.

• 1:03:53Jocko Willink?

  The man who has already, the man who was ready, is the man who prepared himself. He has studied beforehand the possible situations that might arise. He has made tentative plans covering such situations. When he is confronted by the emergency, is ready to meet it. He must have sufficient mental alertness to appreciate the problem that confronts him, and the power of quick reasoning to determine what changes are necessary in his already formulated plan. He must also have the decision to order the execution and stick to his orders. So, again, he's saying, "Hey, someone's gonna make a quick call." It's because they planned for it. Which is good. That's good. And he's gonna make it even more solid here. Any reasonable

• 1:04:35Jocko Willink?

  order in an emergency is better than no order. The situation is there. Meet it. It is better to do something and do it wrong than to hesitate, hunt around for the right thing to do, and wind up doing nothing at all. And having decided on a line of action, stick to it. Don't vacillate. Men have no confidence in an officer who doesn't know his own mind. Occasionally, you will be called upon to meet a situation which no reasonable human being could anticipate. If you have prepared yourself to meet other emergencies which you could anticipate, the mental training you have thereby gained will enable you to act proper, promptly, and with calmness. And I'll go one step further than that. Which is,

• 1:05:17Jocko Willink?

  it's not just mental preparation, it's getting put in scenarios that are crazy and complicated and having to figure out what to do. You get better at that. So, that's what I got to see running the advanced SEAL training, is you put a guy, the first time he gets put into a chaotic situation, disaster.com locks up, doesn't know what to do, freaks out. Then you, you know, you put him in another situation. And maybe obviously you tell them like, hey, man, take a step back. Hey, assess what's happening. Get up, get up to a little bit of high ground. Look around. Don't try and figure everything out at once. Make a very small decision. Okay, try it again. They'll do a little bit better, they do a little better.

• 1:05:58Jocko Willink?

  And eventually they learn the protocol to get through these complex emergencies that happened. So it's not just mental training. It's like a physical thing that you have to do. And just like you can teach someone an arm bar for three months with PowerPoint. The first time they do an arm bar, it still won't be there. You gotta do it.

• 1:06:23Jocko Willink?

  Continuing, you must frequently act without orders from higher authority. Time will not permit you to wait for them. Here again enters the importance of studying the work of officers above you. If you have a comprehensive grasp of the entire situation and can form an idea of the general plan of your superiors, that and your previous emergency training will enable you to determine that the responsibility is yours and to issue the necessary orders without delay. Understand what the mission is.

• 1:06:52Jocko Willink?

  The element of personal dignity is important in military leadership. Be the friend of your men, but do not become their intimate. Your men should stand in awe of you, not fear. And I tried to find if there was like an alternate meaning of awe. And there is, you know, it doesn't quite mean, you know, there's alternate meanings are like less profound. You know what I mean? It's not like awe.

• 1:07:19Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:07:20Jocko Willink?

  It's like, oh yeah, like, like heavy levels of respect, right?

• 1:07:24Speaker 01

  Almost reverence.

• 1:07:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, but not quite reverence, but we're approaching it.

• 1:07:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:07:28Jocko Willink?

  You see what I'm saying?

• 1:07:29Speaker 01

  We're looking up to this guy. He's close, closer to the ideal.

• 1:07:33Jocko Willink?

  Exactly, exactly. You know, because again, you gotta be careful. If your like goal is to have people, if you think people should stand in awe of you, that's not going to go well. But if you think people should respect you and see how you behave and respect your actions, that's good. If your men presume to become familiar, it's your fault, not theirs. Your actions have encouraged them to do so. And above all things, don't cheapen yourself by courting their friendship or currying their favor. They will despise you.

• 1:08:06Jocko Willink?

  If you are worthy of their loyalty and respect and devotion, they will surely give you all those things without asking. If not, nothing that you can do will win them. So this is, this is the classic case of trying to get everyone on the team to be your buddy. And if you do that, you're not holding the line like you need to.

• 1:08:27Jocko Willink?

  It is exceedingly difficult for an officer to be dignified while wearing a dirty, spotted uniform and a three days stubble of whiskers on his face. Such a man lacks self-respect and self-respect is an essential of dignity. There may be occasions when your work entails dirty clothes and an unshaven face. Your men all look that way. At such time, there's ample reason for your appearance. In fact, it would be a mistake to look too clean. They would think that you were not doing your share. But as soon as this unusual occasion is passed, set an example for personal neatness.

• 1:09:04Jocko Willink?

  Kind of a big deal.

• 1:09:07Jocko Willink?

  And then I would mention courage. Moral courage you need as well as mental courage. That kind of moral courage, which enables you to adhere without faltering to a determined course of action, which your judgment has indicated is the best one suited to secure the desired results. You will find many times, especially in action, and he means combat action, that after having issued your orders to do a certain thing, you will be beset by misgivings and doubts. You will see or think you see other and better means for accomplishing the object sought. You will be strongly tempted to change your orders.

• 1:09:49Jocko Willink?

  Don't do it until it is clearly manifested that your first orders were radically wrong. For if you do, you will begin, you will again be worried by doubts as to the efficacy of your second orders.

• 1:10:03Jocko Willink?

  I have a little bit of beef with that. My beef with that is you make a call. And he says to wait until it is clearly manifested that your call was radically wrong. To me, that's a little bit much, right? I don't need to, I don't need to see clear manifestation. And I don't need to see radically wrong. I can see strong indications that this is a bad move. Now, I do, you ever heard me say, uh, plan your dive, dive your plan? Yes. Yeah, there's a reason for that. And that doesn't only apply to diving. Most of the time, like, we plan, we brief, we rehearse. Sticking to that is a smart move. And, and thinking that you're gonna make some quick adjustment, it's, it doesn't go well.

• 1:10:49Jocko Willink?

  Plan your dive, dive your plan. Now, if you're diving your plan and you're, it's not, you see that it is clearly wrong. You know, maybe not radically, what is it radically what? Maybe not radical disaster radically wrong. But you start going, oh yeah, this is not, this is not effective. You don't need to wait until it's clear, crystal clear. You can be like, oh yeah, this is not going well. And what you can do, this doesn't mean you need to, it doesn't mean you stop and do something totally different. But you can, you can make some, start making some small adjustments to mitigate your bad call. Uh, every time you change orders without obvious reason, you weaken your authority and impair the confidence of your men.

• 1:11:29Jocko Willink?

  Have the moral courage to stand by your order and see it through. Again, if you're telling someone to do something and it's not working, you should have the humility to be like, oh, this was a bad call. Stop what you're doing. Come back over here.

• 1:11:44Jocko Willink?

  Moral courage further demands that you assume the responsibility for your own acts. That'd be a good idea for a book, wouldn't it? Assuming responsibility for your own acts. If your subordinates have loyalty, have loyally carried out your orders and the movement you directed is a failure, the failure is yours, not theirs.

• 1:12:06Jocko Willink?

  Yours would have been the honor had it been successful. Take the blame if it results in disaster. Don't try and shift it to a subordinate and make him the goat. That is a cowardly act. So there you go. When you make a mistake, you need to take ownership of your mistake.

• 1:12:24Speaker 01

  Let's say goat, that means scapegoat.

• 1:12:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, he means scapegoat, not goat.

• 1:12:28Speaker 01

  Greats of all time. Clarity.

• 1:12:32Jocko Willink?

  Furthermore, you will need moral courage to determine the fate of those under you. You will frequently be called upon for recommendations for promotion or demotion of officers and non-commissioned officers in your immediate command. Keep clearly in mind your personal integrity and the duty you owe your country. Do not let yourself be deflected from a strict sense of justice by feelings of personal friendship. If your own brother is your second lieutenant and you find him unfit to hold his commission, eliminate him. If you don't, your lack of moral courage may result in the loss of valuable lives.

• 1:13:08Speaker 01

  So moral courage, I mean, I've actually recently been hearing that a lot, that expression, moral courage. So that is just to be, just in the spirit of understanding, that's a, what, during the, doing the right thing, even when it's uncomfortable, painful in the short term.

• 1:13:26Jocko Willink?

  Yes, and, and doing the right thing, even though there's a heavy price to pay and it's not a physical price. It's, it's, you know, courage, physical courage is like, I'm gonna do this thing and I could die. Or I, I will get hurt or whatever. There's huge sacrifices that I, that I might have to make to make this thing happen. Moral courage is like, oh, I might get in trouble. I might, you know, uh, have to answer to the man, you know, there's, I might get canceled from this thing that I'm supposed to be doing. All those things would be moral courage.

• 1:14:02Speaker 01

  And it's, correct me if I'm wrong, so, and, but it has to be based on doing quote unquote, the right thing.

• 1:14:08Jocko Willink?

  Yes, doing the right thing, 100%.

• 1:14:09Speaker 01

  Because regular, even like, it doesn't have to be physical courage if it's courage, like, um, I don't know, freaking.

• 1:14:17Speaker 01

  Having a like courage, like a hard talk with somebody or something like that. That's not necessarily moral courage. That's just like, hey, sack up, you know, or if you're gonna ask for a raise, you know, all this stuff.

• 1:14:28Jocko Willink?

  Moral courage is like a whistleblower.

• 1:14:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, standing up for somebody like a bully or something like this. Yeah.

• 1:14:34Jocko Willink?

  That's moral courage. Now, if the bully is gonna kick your ass.

• 1:14:37Speaker 01

  It's both.

• 1:14:38Jocko Willink?

  It's a little bit of both.

• 1:14:39Speaker 01

  Both.

• 1:14:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and I was about to talk about moral injury, right? And this is when things happened where this is the, you know, I really first started hearing this from General Mukuyama. You know, he's, he's very involved with the moral courage thing, or sorry, the moral injury thing. This is when something happened that you witnessed, you participated in, and it was you. You did the wrong thing. And now you have a moral wound because you feel like you did the wrong thing. Maybe you feel like you should have stood up. Maybe you felt like you didn't take the action you should have taken from him. And it wasn't, it didn't have anything to do with physical courage. Like, oh, I'm a coward because I didn't do this thing.

• 1:15:21Jocko Willink?

  I'm a physical coward, but oh, this thing happened and I didn't report it or I didn't, you know, stop it from happening where I should have. And, you know, if, you know, in Vietnam, you know, the My Lai massacre, right? If someone was there and they didn't participate in it, but they didn't like tell people to stop. They might have a moral injury because now they feel the guilt of not doing the right thing. They did, they know they didn't have the moral courage to stop it.

• 1:15:54Jocko Willink?

  Continuing on, if on the other hand, you are called upon for recommendation concerning a man whom for personal reasons you thoroughly dislike, do not fail to do him full justice. Remember that aim is the general good, not the satisfaction of an individual grudge. I'm taking for granted that you will have physical courage. I need not tell you how necessary that is. Courage is more than bravery. Bravery is fearlessness, the absence of fear. The nearest, the merest dolt may be brave because he lacks the mental, the mentality to appreciate his danger. He doesn't know enough to be afraid.

• 1:16:33Jocko Willink?

  Courage, you ever tell you about my, uh, my fearlessness in Africa?

• 1:16:39Speaker 01

  No, I don't think so.

• 1:16:40Jocko Willink?

  So Leif and I were in Africa and we were working with a company down there. And after we worked with the company, we went on, we went to like a, a park. And the parks down there is where the elephants, the rhinoceroses, the lions, tigers.

• 1:16:58Speaker 01

  Straight up safari.

• 1:16:59Jocko Willink?

  Safari park, right?

• 1:17:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:01Jocko Willink?

  But so we go to this safari park and we're, it's a long drive. We're in Johannesburg and we drive and you know, I'm in the vehicle and we're talking because we're with the guy, great dude. And, and we're all talking and carrying on and it's like a three, four, something hour drive. And at some point, um, we were driving and there was like this beautiful sunset.

• 1:17:24Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:17:25Jocko Willink?

  And I go, oh dude, let me like get a picture of the sunset. You know, it's like looking out over the plains, right? So I'm like, hey, and I tell the guy that's driving, I'm like, hey, you know, will you stop the car so I get a picture of the sunset? And he's like, yeah. So he pop, he starts, stops the car and I just like get out of the car and I kind of, cause you know, I don't want to take it through the window or whatever. So I get out of the car and I kind of like line up and get a couple of shots, you know, walk around a little bit, check it out, get a good angle.

• 1:17:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:50Jocko Willink?

  I get back in the car and you know, we start driving. Well, it turns out that during our conversation, I had missed the fact that we had entered this, this park, right? And he, you know, he just thought, dude, Jocko just, you know, he just, he'll just deal with it. Like he just got like, he's like, he's, I guess he'll take on whatever, what, what lion, you know? Hyena, whatever. He's ready for it. Like Jago like, cause, but what I, but I saw when we left, you go through like a gate. And it's like, do not get out of your car. You are entering the safari zone. You are, you know, there's all these dangerous animals. They will kill you. We literally drove by a sign that said that.

• 1:18:33Jocko Willink?

  So I just roll, got out of my car, started, you know, the whatever, taking some pictures. And it wasn't until like, like late, I guess later on that night, they're like, yeah, dude, you just kind of just got out of the car. And I was like, whoa, whoa, what do you mean? They're like, this is an open, because it's weird in Africa.

• 1:18:52Jocko Willink?

  All the, all the animals are in these game reserves. Like there's no, there's no, like a lion that's just walking around and in the clear, in the public because they'll kill people, people, right? So they're all, you think, you think it's that way. Like in America, like there's a moose walking out through like a town. Like you see that, right? You know, you see a grizzly bear walking, like digging through garbage. Like that's the way it is in America, but in Africa, it's not like that. Partially because these are like, like, not that, I don't even, what's more ferocious, a grizz or a damn lion or, but, but they keep them all like cooped up, you know?

• 1:19:33Jocko Willink?

  Not cooped up because, because the land reserves are huge. Like they're, it'd be like if we put a fence around our public lands, you know, if we, if, if we put a fence around freaking Yellowstone and we're like, hey, you know, they, they can't get out and you can't go in. And when even, but the crazy thing is, it was like Jurassic Park. Like, once we got to our little cabins where we stayed, there's a electric ass fence. Like they're, and it's like Jurassic Park, you know? And I didn't realize I was just in the clear, just walking around. So, so to put it the way he put it, I was a adult, a mere adult. Cause I lacked the freaking mentality to appreciate the danger at

• 1:20:17Jocko Willink?

  all. And I think Leif was kind of like, well, you know, like, and, and actually his wife Jenna was with us too. It's kind of like, hey, Jocko just goes hard. That's just what we're doing. You know? Hey, let's go. No, I'm not tough. I'm just dumb. Not, not courageous. Just too stupid to know any better. So that's one of those moments where, but luckily nothing happened. And then like, five minutes later, we see rhinos, like for real.

• 1:20:46Jocko Willink?

  And boy, those rhinos, dude, they look, they look like they were gonna, they look like if they wanted to, do you don't stand a chance, bro? I, I, I made eye contact with it. And we're in a car, we're, we're in like a Land Rover, right? And I make eye contact with this thing and I was like, this thing can completely kill not just me. And not if I get out, like I felt like if it, if it got fired up.

• 1:21:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:10Jocko Willink?

  It doesn't matter, you're in a car, it, I mean, this thing, I don't know how much they weigh, but they're as big as a car and they got a freaking giant ass horn.

• 1:21:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 1:21:19Jocko Willink?

  You know, that, that thing will kill you. Yeah. And he didn't look happy, bro. He looked pissed. He looked pissed. You know what I'm saying?

• 1:21:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:26Jocko Willink?

  That was a weird thing, cause most of the time when I make eye contact with something, I'm kinda sizing him up and I kinda feeling pretty good about it.

• 1:21:32Speaker 01

  Not this time?

• 1:21:33Jocko Willink?

  No. No, did not feel good about that. But it was badass, like in that Jurassic Park, when you got in the camp thing, there's like straight up activities going on out front, you know? Hey, have you ever seen a giraffe? Do you know what a giraffe's primary weapon is?

• 1:21:50Speaker 01

  What?

• 1:21:51Jocko Willink?

  Do you know how they defend itself and how they like fight and kill and all that stuff?

• 1:21:54Speaker 01

  I don't know, but if I were to guess, I would say the, the feet, the legs.

• 1:21:59Jocko Willink?

  Bro, they use their head and they swing their head on that long ass neck and like hit shit.

• 1:22:05Speaker 01

  Oh, like a freaking.

• 1:22:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, like a wrecking ball. Yeah, like a wrecking ball. And then I went with Jason Gardner, we went to a damn, uh, special

• 1:22:16Jocko Willink?

  zoo in Nebraska and we got to feed like rhinos and stuff.

• 1:22:21Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:22:22Jocko Willink?

  But the, the damn, damn, you wouldn't wanna get hit in the head with that.

• 1:22:27Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:22:27Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:28Speaker 01

  No, a lot of these, I mean, yeah, a lot of these animals, like, you know, you see them on TV and you're like, yeah, cool. That's freaking crazy. But then you see me in real life, you're like, bro, this thing is way bigger than I thought, like way bigger and wider, like, uh.

• 1:22:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and they have, they have a different strength than humans.

• 1:22:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:45Jocko Willink?

  You know what I'm saying? Like when you wrestle, when you wrestle like any animal, it just feels stronger than a person.

• 1:22:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, like even my little dog is like pretty impressively scrappy.

• 1:22:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:22:55Speaker 01

  You know, its size.

• 1:22:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:57Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, pound for pound.

• 1:22:58Jocko Willink?

  Pound for pound, like animals are, are just like kinda stronger than us.

• 1:23:03Speaker 01

  Hey, um, whatever happened to the picture?

• 1:23:05Jocko Willink?

  The picture, the picture, the picture.

• 1:23:07Speaker 01

  The sunset.

• 1:23:08Jocko Willink?

  Oh, I probably have to go look for, I could find it.

• 1:23:10Speaker 01

  Oh, you still have it?

• 1:23:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I'm sure I do, yeah.

• 1:23:12Speaker 01

  Alright.

• 1:23:12Jocko Willink?

  I'm sure I have it, it's a good pic, you know, luckily I'm alive.

• 1:23:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, no shit.

• 1:23:15Jocko Willink?

  Leif was about to film me getting just brutalized. Actually, it's funny that, that was a good one too, like a, a damn elephant, we were in a, in a Land Rover. An elephant, like, I don't want to exaggerate, an elephant came close to us, you know what I mean?

• 1:23:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:32Jocko Willink?

  And like, real close.

• 1:23:34Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:23:34Jocko Willink?

  And, and bro, if that thing wanted to kill you, you don't, you don't stand a chance, man. Like, if that thing, if that thing just had one fake out, which the fake out would be, I'm gonna walk close to this Land Rover, and then when I get close enough, I'm gonna knock it over and kill everyone inside.

• 1:23:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:23:49Jocko Willink?

  I mean, some of us would be able to run away, you know?

• 1:23:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, can't get everybody, if they're scattering.

• 1:23:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, like, I don't think they're able to get everyone, because it was just one. But, but I videoed that too.

• 1:24:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:01Jocko Willink?

  And it was pretty, it was pretty interesting. The weird thing about elephants, when they're moving, they're so big, they look like they're moving in slow motion. They're huge.

• 1:24:08Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, in Honolulu, back in the day, elephant got loose from a show.

• 1:24:13Jocko Willink?

  Hell, yeah, I remember that.

• 1:24:14Speaker 01

  Right, yeah, you don't want to mess around.

• 1:24:15Jocko Willink?

  I was, I, I'm scared of elephants.

• 1:24:18Speaker 01

  I understand completely.

• 1:24:19Jocko Willink?

  Because I was in Thailand, and I went to like, an elephant park, and it's not cool. Like, the elephants are not happy, they're chained up, and they probably get beaten. But I didn't know that going into it. I went into it like, oh, cool, elephants, right? And I was feeding the elephants, they give you like, you can buy bananas, right? So I buy some bananas, gonna feed the elephants. And these are not big giant elephants, these are like, kind of smaller type elephants.

• 1:24:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:44Jocko Willink?

  And I start feeding the elephants, and they start getting aggressive, like, they're, they want, they want what I got. And finally, I was kind of running low, and I was close to this elephant. You know how elephants, their head is sort of vertical, like, their head is vertical, right?

• 1:25:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:25:01Jocko Willink?

  And I was standing right in front of its head, and it, it bucked, and it threw me through the air.

• 1:25:09Jocko Willink?

  It threw me through the air. I had no, I had no, um, I had nothing for it.

• 1:25:15Speaker 01

  No recourse.

• 1:25:16Jocko Willink?

  I had nothing for it.

• 1:25:18Speaker 01

  Dang, so it assaulted you, huh?

• 1:25:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it kind of assaulted me and I was like, yo, I wanna, I wanna, I wanna leave here. But, but that's why I don't, I don't, I don't mess with elephants.

• 1:25:27Speaker 01

  Well, I'm.

• 1:25:27Jocko Willink?

  They're mean.

• 1:25:28Speaker 01

  I'm a thousand percent with you and I feel like this was like, pretty much all wild.

• 1:25:32Jocko Willink?

  When they, when they got after it?

• 1:25:33Speaker 01

  No, no, no. That was, that was in Honolulu. So I only was on Holland for like five years. But yeah, it jammed up a guy too. I don't know if he did it. I think it might have killed him. I don't know. I forget. But there's video of it.

• 1:25:43Jocko Willink?

  I've heard this and I'll have to re, I, I forget. I don't know if this is, I've heard this for a long time. So I don't know if it was just some internet rumor, cause this is pre-internet rumor for me. But I heard that in Africa, if like, an elephant kills a person, they have to kill all those elephants. Cause it just learned, like, they all just learned, like, oh, we don't need to take shit from these little ant things.

• 1:26:05Speaker 01

  I heard that. I've heard that before.

• 1:26:07Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 1:26:08Speaker 01

  Huh. The, uh, yeah. Uh, bro, don't mess with any wild animals at all. I think it's like, um, you know, like, we get into this almost like collective complacency, kind of like, oh yeah, they're like pets at the zoo, like a petting zoo, you know, and they forget that like, no, brother, freaking giraffe, like, just like how you said, like, they look kind of cute and pretty or whatever.

• 1:26:27Jocko Willink?

  You know what a big sucker is in America is moose. Cause, cause you know, moose, they kind of look a little bit dopey and friendly.

• 1:26:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're kind of.

• 1:26:37Jocko Willink?

  Like they're the meanest of those type of animals. You know what I mean? Not as mean as a grizz, but like they're, they will kill you.

• 1:26:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:45Jocko Willink?

  Like a moose will, i- i- it will run roughshod all over your head.

• 1:26:53Speaker 01

  Bro, moose is one of those animals that I was surprised on how huge those are.

• 1:26:57Jocko Willink?

  Oh yeah, they're huge.

• 1:26:57Speaker 01

  Like a moose, um, and I, I've never seen a, a polar bear, but. There was like this video saying, oh, five animals that are way bigger in real life or something. And it showed a polar bear next to like a person. I was like, bro, that's like AI. Then you go look it up at the numbers and you're, bro, that thing is freaking like, it's huge. It's like a monstrously huge.

• 1:27:16Jocko Willink?

  Polar bears are like the, the most like legit. If you're going out, bro, like if I'm going out, I'll take that polar bear like just let's go in the glory. You know what I mean?

• 1:27:28Speaker 01

  It's like pretty impressive.

• 1:27:29Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, like that thing's just gonna, that, that thing, you, you, you know, when you, imagine us, imagine a cherry. You know, when you eat a cherry, imagine a cherry, when you take up, when you take a whole cherry and you bite it. That's what your head is to a polar bear, like one shot, there's that crunch boom, like it's just game over.

• 1:27:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, bro. Don't mess with the animals.

• 1:27:54Jocko Willink?

  I was getting, I was hunting with Dudley and we were, we were going after a elk. And then there was a, a mountain lion that was going after it and we kind of were behind it. It was like, bro, if that thing wanted to get you.

• 1:28:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:10Jocko Willink?

  You wouldn't know it, man. Just grab you by the head and just them big ass claws.

• 1:28:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, even small mountain lions are, can like jam you up pretty hardcore.

• 1:28:18Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, although there was one article about a guy like beating up a mountain lion and it was kind of in the headlines. And they showed a picture of it. It was like, it was like a large cat. Like a large house cat. And hey, bro, like a large house cat, that thing will jack you up too. All kinds of scrapes towards your eyes and stuff.

• 1:28:34Speaker 01

  Oh yeah. So the, and I went, you know, I have a canyon by my house. It's like, it's trails. That's where I go get my road work from time to time, every day. But the, um, there's not mountain lions, but they're those.

• 1:28:45Jocko Willink?

  Like a bobcat.

• 1:28:45Speaker 01

  Bobcats, exactly. And I saw one and they're like, pretty cool. I wasn't scared of that thing, bro. I was like, bro, I would kill that thing. Like if it came down to it, I would win.

• 1:28:55Speaker 01

  But it just like I said, you know, like a house cat when they get real aggressive and scratch you.

• 1:28:59Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:00Speaker 01

  Oh, it's gonna suck. Like one, like if it caught a vein or something, oh, you could die for sure. Oh, yeah. But yeah, they're not, they're not impressive like I see on like, I don't know, movies or whatever.

• 1:29:10Jocko Willink?

  But then the mountain lion thing, but the weird thing is you ever heard Rogan when Rogan talks about like chimpanzees? Like they go for your eyes and like your, your testicles and stuff like out of the gate. They're just chewing your face off. I wonder if a cat knows that too. You know what I mean? Like is a cat like, oh, I'm going for eyes.

• 1:29:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:30Jocko Willink?

  Because then you're, you're screwed.

• 1:29:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, they, they kind of have this kind of thing to them where they, they got things figured out a little bit more than like a, a random dog. Just the, the vibe, I mean.

• 1:29:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, like dogs, dogs will bite your arm or your leg. It kind of, that's partially because that's how they were trained, but also they're just like when you watch a dog fight another dog, they're going for the back legs. Like incapacitate it, right?

• 1:29:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I didn't notice that.

• 1:29:52Jocko Willink?

  But if, if it knew, but also a, a dog doesn't have the dexterity to go after your eyes like a cat.

• 1:29:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:58Jocko Willink?

  A cat, one slash at the eyes.

• 1:30:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:01Jocko Willink?

  You're, you're, you're in trouble.

• 1:30:02Speaker 01

  You're screwed.

• 1:30:03Jocko Willink?

  And not to mention you could grab onto your face with one, like with three paws and they just get at the eyes with the other one. I don't know if they have the ability to do that though. You know what I mean?

• 1:30:12Speaker 01

  They're, they're pretty freaking agile.

• 1:30:14Jocko Willink?

  That's what I'm saying.

• 1:30:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, even like a dog.

• 1:30:16Jocko Willink?

  No, I don't mean the ability. I know they have the physical ability. Do they have the cognitive capacity to recognize that that would be

• 1:30:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:22Jocko Willink?

  A real game changer. You know what I'm saying? Like a real game changer. Never mind. It's like, like trying to bite your eyes.

• 1:30:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:31Jocko Willink?

  I bet we would know if they did that. Cause Rogan seems to know with confidence, by the way, that the chimps are just gonna get in there.

• 1:30:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:38Jocko Willink?

  The chimps, but maybe that's because they're similar to us and they know how to win a fight against them, each other.

• 1:30:43Speaker 01

  Feels like it. Yeah.

• 1:30:44Jocko Willink?

  Like they would just get in there.

• 1:30:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, dogs are kind of dumb comparative, not dumb, but they feel kind of dumb comparatively speaking.

• 1:30:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, but there's a whole spectrum of dogs.

• 1:30:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, I dig it.

• 1:30:55Jocko Willink?

  Some dogs are, they're so smart.

• 1:30:58Speaker 01

  Like you ever, like all like, I'll taunt my dog. And thankfully, she knows that they're like, I'm playing, but you know, it's trying to bite you. It's like, it's chomping at every little thing, even like faints, you know, like she's like reacting to faints. But cats, it feels like they kind of know what a faint is.

• 1:31:13Jocko Willink?

  But the weird thing is, you ever seen when you, you ever seen people throw cheese at a cat and a dog? Like randomly throw a piece of cheese at a dog and it just like immediately bite, eats it.

• 1:31:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:24Jocko Willink?

  And a cat, it like, like discombobulates them, they fall over and stuff.

• 1:31:29Speaker 01

  I've never seen that.

• 1:31:29Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's a whole thing.

• 1:31:31Speaker 01

  Okay. See, man, that's why I don't mess around, but unpredictable is what I'm saying.

• 1:31:36Jocko Willink?

  The animals, the animals. All right, back to the book.

• 1:31:41Jocko Willink?

  Courage, however, is that firmness of spirit, that moral backbone, while fully appreciating the danger involved, nevertheless goes on with the undertaking. Like if I would have known what was outside of that vehicle, I wouldn't have gotten out of it. Bravery is physical, courage is mental and moral. You may be cold all over, your hands may tremble, your legs may quake, your knees may be ready to give way. That is fear. If nevertheless, you go forward, if in spite of this physical defection, you continue to lead your men against the enemy, you have courage. The physical manifestations of fear will pass away. You may never experience them, but once.

• 1:32:24Jocko Willink?

  They are the buck fever of the hunter who tries to shoot his first deer. You must not give way to them. A number of years ago, while taking a demolitions course, the class of which I was a member was handling dynamite. The instructor said regarding its manipulation. I must caution you gentlemen to be careful in the use of these explosions, explosives. One man has but one accident. And so I would caution you, if you give way to fear, that will doubtless beset you in your first action. If you show the white feather, if you let your men go forward while you hunt a shell crater,

• 1:33:07Jocko Willink?

  you will never again have the opportunity of leading those men.

• 1:33:12Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 1:33:15Jocko Willink?

  Use your judgment in calling on your men for displays of physical courage or bravery. Don't ask any man to go where you would not go yourself. If your common sense tells you that the place is too dangerous for you to venture into, then it is too dangerous for him. You know, his life is as valuable to him as yours is to you. Occasionally, some of your men might be exposed to danger which you cannot share. A message must be taken across a fire swept zone. You call for volunteers. If your men know you and know that you are right, you will never lack volunteers for they will know your heart is in your work, that you are giving your country the best you have, that you would willingly carry the message yourself if you could.

• 1:34:00Jocko Willink?

  Your example and enthusiasm will have inspired them. And lastly, if you aspire to leadership, I would urge you to study men. Get under their skins and find out what is inside. Some men are quite different from what they appear to be on the surface. Determine the workings of their mind. Much of General Robert E. Lee's success as a leader may be ascribed to his ability as a psychologist. He knew most of his opponents from West Point days, knew the workings of their minds, and he believed that they would do certain things under certain circumstances. In nearly every case, he was able to anticipate their movements and block the execution.

• 1:34:46Jocko Willink?

  You cannot know your opponent in this war the same way, but you can know your own men. You can study each to determine wherein lies his strength and his weakness, which man can be relied upon to the last gasp and which cannot. And he closes it out with something that has been adopted by the, by the military, by the army. Know your men, know your business, know yourself.

• 1:35:16Jocko Willink?

  And that's what we got. Know your men, know your business, know yourself. Such a, such a great document. And so much is so applicable today because it's all based on human nature. And technology changes and environments change and business changes and combat changes. But at the end of the day, we as humans, our nature doesn't really change. And Colonel Christian Albert Bach died in 1944. But left us, these lessons we can still apply today. So.

• 1:35:59Jocko Willink?

  Of course, he also mentioned physical vitality.

• 1:36:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, hell yeah.

• 1:36:03Jocko Willink?

  Critical part of leadership to be able to endure physically.

• 1:36:10Jocko Willink?

  And you know what? Sometimes people think that they can just rise to the occasion. You know what I mean?

• 1:36:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:17Jocko Willink?

  Like, hey, you know, if I really, if I really needed to do it, I could do it. That's actually not freaking true.

• 1:36:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:23Jocko Willink?

  You might be able to do a little bit more, a little bit more. But if it comes down to it and you gotta do a rope climb and you haven't been climbing ropes? And you haven't been doing pull-ups? I don't care how bad you want it. You can't get up that rope. You gotta put, you gotta carry somebody, gotta buddy carry somebody. You can do it for, you know, maybe do it for 30, 40 meters. Then, then you just gotta start going uphill. What happens? You're, you get your muscle failure, right? That's a real thing. Muscle failure. It doesn't matter how much mental will you try to summon to make something happen. It ain't happening. It ain't happening.

• 1:37:07Jocko Willink?

  You the where you need to use your mental will is in the preparation. You gotta prepare, which means we need to lift, we need to run, we need to sprint, we need to train jiu jitsu, we need to surf, swim, rock, we need to get after it. That's what we need to do. When we do that, by the way, we need fuel. I recommend Jocko Fuel. You need protein. You need milk protein. Powder. Ready to drink, the whole nine yards. You need energy, we got you covered. You need hydration, we got you covered. You need supplementation, we got you covered. Joint warfare, highly recommend. Super krill, highly recommend, every day. Time war, highly recommend, every day.

• 1:37:53Jocko Willink?

  That's what we're doing. If you want to get on the path,

• 1:37:58Jocko Willink?

  check out jockofuel.com. It sounds like you need some Cold War. What do you got going on over there? You okay? You all right?

• 1:38:03Speaker 01

  I feel like-

• 1:38:04Jocko Willink?

  Coughing up a storm, you have to even making yourself, you're gonna have to edit, people won't hear it because you, you're gonna edit it out.

• 1:38:09Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:38:10Jocko Willink?

  But you've caused yourself a couple edits here. That's an extra labor for Echo Charles.

• 1:38:15Speaker 01

  I don't feel like I'm sick in any way. I feel like I inhaled something. You know, you inhale something, like some dust. Something, something physical.

• 1:38:22Jocko Willink?

  Okay, yeah.

• 1:38:23Speaker 01

  Sort of feels-

• 1:38:23Jocko Willink?

  That's annoying.

• 1:38:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:25Jocko Willink?

  Jocko Fuel.com, go to your store, you can get it. We're all over the country now. Appreciate the support. It's weird in this modern age. People know like exactly what's being sold in the store. They know. So it's every time you roll in and you grab yourself a RTD, ready to drink, as they call it, or you grab a bag of protein powder, delicious horchata flavor.

• 1:38:52Speaker 01

  Wait, is it really horchata?

• 1:38:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, we just made horchata.

• 1:38:54Speaker 01

  Wait, is that the, there's a pro series and then there's the OG?

• 1:38:59Jocko Willink?

  OG.

• 1:39:00Speaker 01

  Okay, alright. Dang, that's interesting because my kids freaking love that. I was unfamiliar with it, like I heard it, yeah, but I never like had any and then we this was maybe, I don't know, two months ago or something like this and they got it. I was like, oh brother, this is kind of different. I dig it.

• 1:39:15Jocko Willink?

  The thing that's, it's very sweet, like it ain't healthy. The regular.

• 1:39:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, the real.

• 1:39:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you know, but our Chata.

• 1:39:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:24Jocko Willink?

  Tasty.

• 1:39:24Speaker 01

  What is it like a cinnamon scenario?

• 1:39:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, so it's.

• 1:39:27Jocko Willink?

  It's Chata, yeah.

• 1:39:28Speaker 01

  So the, yeah, like cinnamon, so you know how you have the, um, what I'm, the point here is that that's a good move because you know, uh, the fruity cereal one, right? And I remember thinking, oh, that's a good idea, but my favorite cereal rem- milk remnants scenario.

• 1:39:47Jocko Willink?

  Is fruity.

• 1:39:48Speaker 01

  Cinnamon tostos.

• 1:39:49Jocko Willink?

  Oh, okay. Well, you're good with that.

• 1:39:51Speaker 01

  Oh, I didn't know we had it. No, I know. And you know, we're good to go.

• 1:39:55Jocko Willink?

  That's why we're here, man. Uh, check it out, jocklefield.com or go to a store and get yourself what you need. Also check out originusa.com and get yourself some American made gear. By the way, women's jeans.

• 1:40:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:07Jocko Willink?

  It's been a long time coming, but the women jeans, women's jeans, check them out. Uh, my wife got one of the prototype pairs and they were already good to go.

• 1:40:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I saw.

• 1:40:17Jocko Willink?

  Favorite jean, favorite jeans, by the way.

• 1:40:19Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, okay. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Oh, because that's all mine.

• 1:40:23Jocko Willink?

  You know Katie from Ashland Front?

• 1:40:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:25Jocko Willink?

  She gave me like a rundown of why those, those women's jeans are the best jeans. She went full, she gave me every detail that there was, like things that I don't even know.

• 1:40:35Speaker 01

  Bro, that was my whole point.

• 1:40:37Jocko Willink?

  The fit, the whole nine yards.

• 1:40:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, the, the video that I saw is like, you know, the, you know, I don't know, maybe four, four or five ladies, uh, you know, wearing the jean. And bro, they're just giving the report and I'm like, bro, they put, they know, there are so many more elements to jean.

• 1:40:50Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:50Speaker 01

  Fit and all this other stuff, uh, compared to like a guy's jeans that I'm aware of anyway. So I, you know, I got my one, two, three elements of criteria and I'm kinda good to go.

• 1:41:00Jocko Willink?

  GTG.

• 1:41:01Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:41:01Jocko Willink?

  But for, for the females, they got, she was telling me, I can't even remember what she was saying. Like it was a, it was a list of excellence.

• 1:41:08Speaker 01

  Good.

• 1:41:08Jocko Willink?

  A list of excellence. And she's like, and she, you know, she's a, she's an athlete, she's a jujitsu player. And she's like telling me why they're so good.

• 1:41:17Speaker 01

  It makes sense too, because let's face it, the, the, generally speaking, the female body has more curves and angles and like all this other stuff. Then let's say generally speaking, a male body. So I, that makes sense because in the video they're like, oh, it fits here, but a lot of times it doesn't fit here when it fits here. So, but this one fits here and here, see what I'm saying? So it's like the little, the ratios.

• 1:41:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:38Speaker 01

  Were a little bit more intense, I think.

• 1:41:40Jocko Willink?

  And by the way, a hundred percent American made. And are we selling them for $480 the way other? Companies try and sell American-made jeans? No, we're not. We're not. They are in the zone. So check out OriginUSA.com. Plus, you got jeans for you, gis for you, rash guards for you. And this is what we do. From the ground up, American-made. No communism. Communist-free jeans. It's important. A lot of people, see, you don't know it. A lot of people, they're putting on communist-infused jeans. You know what I mean? And then they're wearing communism, and that communism is infusing into their body. Next thing you know, they're a slave.

• 1:42:27Jocko Willink?

  Someone puts on a pair of Origin jeans, freedom is infusing into their body. And they go out and take ownership of the world. That's what we're doing. So check out OriginUSA.com. Get some American-made gear.

• 1:42:37Speaker 01

  It's true. Yes. Also, Jocko Storey, freaking in full effect at this time. You know, we got the new Get After it out. That was kind of clever. You look close on that one, it looks clever. There's layers. I told you, I think I told you this.

• 1:42:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I know the layers.

• 1:42:50Speaker 01

  Okay, what's the layers?

• 1:42:52Jocko Willink?

  The layers are tape. The layers are JP Denell putting tape on his helmet that says JP.

• 1:42:59Speaker 01

  Yep, because he asked him to.

• 1:43:00Jocko Willink?

  Because I was like, hey, put JP on your helmet in big letters, because I want to be able to see you on the battlefield.

• 1:43:05Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:43:06Jocko Willink?

  So you can handle shit.

• 1:43:07Speaker 01

  So when you told that story, I was like, okay, that's a cool story. Actually, JP told the story. So I was like, oh, yeah, that's pretty legit. And then when I saw the actual picture of JP's helmet.

• 1:43:18Jocko Willink?

  JP has that helmet.

• 1:43:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I figured Sharpie or something like this. And I'm like, cool, and just, you know, never gave a second thought. But when I saw the actual, it was like with this black tape. It's like tape. I was, oh, that's a good look right there. Plus JP gets after it. Let's face it. There's a video called JP Getting After.

• 1:43:34Jocko Willink?

  There's a reason why I was like, JP, put JP on your helmet so I can see you. Because I might need you to get after it. In a certain way.

• 1:43:43Speaker 01

  Exactly right, man.

• 1:43:43Jocko Willink?

  At a certain time. And he's, he's the kind of MF'er that will get after it.

• 1:43:49Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly.

• 1:43:50Jocko Willink?

  Factually.

• 1:43:51Speaker 01

  JP, the freaking get after it instrument.

• 1:43:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:54Speaker 01

  In this case, you see what I'm saying? So yeah, I took inspiration from that whole scenario and the get after is, is made in tape.

• 1:44:01Jocko Willink?

  Looks dope.

• 1:44:02Speaker 01

  That's, yeah, yeah. So that's the new one. Um, also, you know, good. We got an updated good. We got an updated discipline equals freedom. It's kind of just good to go at this point.

• 1:44:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, GTG has this.

• 1:44:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, all on JacoStore.com. Um, Shirt Locker, subscription, new design every month. People seem to like it. Guys at the muster, we just got back, by the way. Guys at the muster were like, they didn't know. They're like, hey, I saw a, a shirt that said sugar coated lies and it had that symbol, you know, the X bike symbol. It's like, yeah, bro, that's the one from the shirt locker. So the design's a little bit more, uh, what creative, we'll say, outside the box, we'll say. See what I'm saying? But anyway, check it out. Go, if you click on the top where it says Shirt Locker, you can see kind of what it's all about. And, uh, yeah, man, if you want to subscribe to that, get it.

• 1:44:47Jocko Willink?

  Get it. Uh, we got some books. Put Your Legs On by Rob Jones. We got Need to Lead by Dave Burke.

• 1:44:56Speaker 01

  Good deal.

• 1:44:56Jocko Willink?

  I've written a bunch of books, Extreme Ownership, Dichotomy Leadership, Leadership Strategy and Tactics, Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual, and a bunch of kids books. So check all those out. Also check out PrimalBeef.com. You need steak.

• 1:45:08Jocko Willink?

  So you, if you go to PrimalBeef.com, you can get steak delivered to your house. Also Colorado Craft Beef can deliver steak to your house. So check out PrimalBeef.com. Check out ColoradoCraftBeef.com. Echelon Front, we have a leadership consultancy. We solve problems through leadership. If you need help inside your organization, go to EchelonFront.com. If you want to come to one of our live events, go to EchelonFront.com. And also, if you can't come to one of our events, you can go to ExtremeOwnership.com and you can learn the skills of leadership online. So check that out. And if you want to help service members, active and retired, you want to help their families, you want to help Gold Star families, check out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee. She's an amazing woman, who had an amazing son, and she now has an amazing

• 1:45:53Jocko Willink?

  charity organization. If you want to donate, or you want to get involved, go to Americas Mighty Warriors.org. Also, please check out Heroes and Horses.org. And finally, Jimmy May's organization, BeyondTheBrotherhood.org. And if you want to connect with us, check out Jaco.com. And then on social media, I'm at Jocko Willink, Echo's at Echo Charles. Just don't spend too much time there, because it ain't healthy. It's a monster. Thanks to all the soldiers, sailors, airmen, and Marines deployed right now, in harm's way, around the world, protecting us and our freedom. We are grateful. We are also grateful to

• 1:46:37Jocko Willink?

  our police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, Border Patrol, Secret Service, and all other first responders. Thank you for protecting us here at home. And everyone else out there, we got some lessons today. Keep your emotions in check. Have self-control, and have physical vitality, which you got to work for, and you got to earn. Make light of your troubles. Belittle your trials. And of course, assume responsibility for your own actions. The people that you lead, they

• 1:47:17Jocko Willink?

  ask nothing more than that. So go get after it. And that's all we got for tonight. And until next time, this is Echo and Jocko.