526: The 18 Things That Make You A Bad Soldier and a Bad Leader, In Battle and in Life.

>Join Jocko Underground< https://www.jockounderground.com/subscribe Breaking down a 1951 U. S. Army research report based on interviews with 57 infantrymen fighting in Korean War. The episode pulls blunt, field-tested answers on what makes a good vs. poor combat man and leader—things like combat know-how, staying on task under pressure, remaining calm, taking care of gear, putting the team first, and giving clear, fair leadership. They connect those traits to everyday life and work: master your job, take quick appropriate action, control emotions, avoid selfishness and excuses, and build trust by sharing risk and being consistent. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko podcast number 526 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening Echo. Good evening. What makes a good soldier? What makes a good leader? What makes a poor soldier? What makes a poor leader? There are many opinions about this. And a lot of them are different. But also there are patterns and we have certainly discussed some of the patterns of good and bad leaders. But

• 0:30Jocko Willink?

  leadership and human nature is not a science. Certainly, there are a lot of variables. There's a lot of idiosyncrasies. There are a lot of nuances. That make human interaction difficult. I found a

• 0:47Jocko Willink?

  I guess it's somewhat of a scientific approach. To this from the Department of the Army Personnel Branch. Department of the Army Personnel Research Branch. So from 16 May to 19 July 1951. The Personnel Research Branch of the Army collected data. By interviewing officers and enlisted men from a bunch of different jobs in the Army Combat Arms. Infantrymen. Who had served in direct combat in Korea and it's not a comprehensive study by any stretch and the sample group was relatively small, but

• 1:28Jocko Willink?

  I was thinking about this, you're gonna, you're gonna hear some very raw answers and it's because these guys have been in combat. They don't, they're not, they don't care. They're not trying to, they're not trying to make anyone feel good. There's no sugar coating going on. They're coming off the battlefield and they're like, this is what's happening. I had a decent sprinkling of that in my own attitude, especially while I was still overseas, you know, someone was asking me something. I was going to tell them straight up like this is what's happening. And so that's what these guys are. These guys are in that mode of, hey, you, oh, you want to know what, what a good leader is? Not this. Oh, it's that. So it's not a, it's a pretty small study group. I think it's like 50 or 60 guys, but I think there's some really good insight.

• 2:11Jocko Willink?

  In this document and it's called, uh, once again, personnel research section report nine nine five and it's entitled characteristics of good and poor combat performance as reported by infantry men in Korea. What a great title. That's what we're, that's what we're going to learn. The characteristics of good and poor combat performance.

• 2:33Jocko Willink?

  Uh, let's get to this book right here. So it starts off by saying a group of 57 infantry men, most of them with combat experience dating from the fall of 1950 were informally interviewed on the main line of resistance in Korea in June, 1951. So these guys are getting interviewed in the field. You're not going to get any more truthful answers than that. You know how kids always tell you the truth?

• 2:54Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:55Jocko Willink?

  Kids will be like, you look fat or you look stupid or your hair is ugly. Like your kids are gonna, a combat infantryman that's currently on the line in combat, he's not going to pull any punches either. So that's what we've got here. These infantrymen represented most of the combat, common combat jobs. They were each asked to describe the two best and the two poorest combat men they knew citing instances to support their choices. So that's what we get into. Uh, list of characteristics of good combat men. Good combat men. Has combat know-how and this is just straight up. I love, this is such a good army, army document, straight up. This

• 3:37Jocko Willink?

  is what's happening. Good combat man, man, has combat know-how, sticks to job when going gets tough, is quick to take appropriate action, remains calm under fire, shows concern for others in group, is orderly and clean, takes orders well, learns duties quickly, has high motivation for duties, is in good physical condition. Boom. Should we just end this podcast now?

• 4:08Speaker 01

  So, so that is combat know-how. That's what they mean by it or combat know-how is one of those?

• 4:12Jocko Willink?

  Yes, it's one of the things has combat know-how, meaning this is how you work this weapon. This is how you reload this weapon. This is how you set up fields of fire. This is how you dig a defensible position. This is where you should position your machine guns, all that stuff. That's combat know-how. And that's kind of the most important thing that they talk about, which again is good in my mind because performance, performance of your duties. You know, when we talk about building good relationships and I always tell people, win.

• 4:38Jocko Willink?

  You know, do an awesome job and people like you more. Right? If you're, if you're losing, people don't like you as much. You're not as good at your job.

• 4:49Jocko Willink?

  And then it breaks down here and we're going to get in, by the way, we're going to get into each of these a little bit deeper, but I'm just going to go through them the way they have them listed here. Good combat leader. Has combat know-how and directs men well under fire. So same exact lead off. Except for it's, it's direct men well under fire, which by the way, that is the combat know-how of a combat leader. Is knowing where to put the troops. Provides supervision and training and checks on men's needs. Take care of your people.

• 5:18Jocko Willink?

  Is friendly, respectful and loyal to his men.

• 5:24Jocko Willink?

  Lets men know he's boss.

• 5:28Jocko Willink?

  And again, we're going to get into these a little bit more detail. Is willing to undergo the same risks as his men. Is impartial in treatment of men. Is explicit in his orders. Simple, concise.

• 5:43Jocko Willink?

  Keeps men informed as much as possible. Knows what his men can and cannot do. Has assurance and self-confidence. So there you go. Those are the characteristics of good combat men and good combat leaders. And then we roll right into it. And again, these are kind of like the overarching things. We're doing some detail on these. Characteristics of poor combat men.

• 6:05Jocko Willink?

  Lags behind, needs constant supervision. In parentheses, irresponsible or stupid.

• 6:14Jocko Willink?

  Is too personally incompatible. Which is an interesting one. And by the way, these are kind of ranked. These are never mind kind of, these are ranked. These are what the most important was down to the least important one. Not a huge disparity in how different they were, but the most important thing is like this person can't do their job by themselves. They need constant supervision or they lag behind. Is number two is, is personally incompatible. Meaning we don't like you.

• 6:44Jocko Willink?

  Is too afraid, doesn't perform adequately, is too afraid, bugs out. Documented coward. Is all for himself.

• 6:57Jocko Willink?

  Takes unnecessary risks, is unwilling to follow orders, lacks interest, is physically inadequate, is preoccupied with personal affairs. He's the poor combat man and the poor combat leader. Number one is temperamental. Number one.

• 7:19Jocko Willink?

  Takes special privileges. Number two.

• 7:25Jocko Willink?

  Is too easy with his men. By the way, these are the men judging going, you're too easy with the boys.

• 7:32Jocko Willink?

  Lacks combat know-how. Won't admit mistakes. Lack of ownership. Is unwilling to undergo same risks as men. Fails to give his men proper information and assistance. And the last one fails to take proper precautions for his men's safety. So those are kind of the, the broad categories that we're talking about.

• 7:57Jocko Willink?

  And it goes on here, makes this note, the single response category used most frequently in describing, poor combat men was lags behind, needs constant supervision, irresponsible or stupid, accounting for 21% of the responses. So that's kind of when you just have a non-starter. You know what I'm saying? Like you're just dumb. Or you're just, you just can't do the job. Can't do it. You just can't do it. And next in order of frequency was is personally incompatible.

• 8:29Jocko Willink?

  Most referring, most response referring to a tendency to complain too much or to lie.

• 8:37Jocko Willink?

  And then is all for himself was also frequently mentioned. 11% of the responses falling into this category. So.

• 8:47Jocko Willink?

  Comparison of good and poor combatmen. This is the next little section here. If good combatmen were often described as having given characteristics and poor combatmen were often described as having the reverse of that characteristic. So clearly, this isn't like a mystery.

• 9:04Jocko Willink?

  "The control of fear appeared to be of paramount importance to the respondents in evaluating combat success." We haven't heard that yet, but we'll get into it. "Combat know-how was clearly considered a prerequisite prerequisite of good combat performance. 23% of the responses included it as a characteristic of a good combatman and a good combat leader." "The most frequently mentioned category describing poor combatmen was lags behind, needs constant supervision." This is why if you can step up and take ownership, like if you're working wherever you're working right now, and you can step up and you can just, "Oh, I got that. I'm gonna run with it." You're gonna go places. And if you don't, and you go, "Oh, well, what do I need to do again? How do you want me to do that? Can you check my work?" You're not gonna go anywhere.

• 9:50Jocko Willink?

  "It is interesting to note that while the possession of combat know-how was the outstanding characteristic of good combatmen, the absence of combat know-how was not frequently mentioned in describing poor combatmen." So if you didn't, if you didn't know everything perfectly, but you weren't in a leadership position, okay. We'll escort you along.

• 10:12Jocko Willink?

  "Certain personnel, personal traits appear to have been regarded as important." "The predominance of personal incompatibility in the description of poor combatmen had its counterpart in such traits as consideration and cooperation describing good combatmen, and the traits of consideration and fairness describing good combatmen, good combat leaders." So isn't it strange that, you know, everyone thinks about the military, and you're just another number, and you better just follow orders? No, it's actually really important that you are just liked by the team. If the team doesn't like you, things aren't gonna go well.

• 10:50Jocko Willink?

  Experienced infantrymen describe good and poor combat men most frequently in terms of competence and dependability. Poor combat men were most frequently described in terms which indicate an inability to control fear.

• 11:07Jocko Willink?

  Frequency of reference to leadership characteristics in describing good men suggests that the best combat men tend to be chosen for positions of leadership. So that's a good sign. We at least get the good people to step up and do the jobs. And this is where we get into, and that's the report right there, which would be relatively straightforward. But when I started reading the actual responses and you start seeing some clarity behind these things. So characteristics of good combat men.

• 11:42Jocko Willink?

  Has combat know-how. And here's the examples. Could set men in a good position. He was wonderful at estimating range. And back in the day, dude, you're trying to estimate range. Now we have laser rangefinders. We got, you know, even our scopes that are milled out. You can do, there's a bunch of tricks of the trade now. But back in the day, like, oh, that looks like about 480 meters. Dial it in, boom. Accurate gunner. He can put a mortar where they want them. Smart. Uses head. Not foolish or hard-headed. Again, you know, we get the Hollywood gunny that rolls in, we're doing it my way. Well, actually not hard-headed.

• 12:27Jocko Willink?

  Knew his work. Knew his weapon. Knew his gun from one end to the other. If anything went wrong with it, he could fix it right away, even in a fight. Within two rounds, he could hit a target. See, this is where if you're, whatever your job is, we answered some questions like this on the underground. You know, we have, we have a couple of people that have written in recently that are in, their life is not in a good spot for a variety of reasons. And they're in a position where they kind of got to start again. They they have nothing, right? And you know, one of the responses that I've been giving those people is like, listen to you. Okay, you you need to go find a job. I don't care what that job is. And you bust your ass at that job. And if you're the fry guy working at a fast food joint, you master it.

• 13:11Jocko Willink?

  And you do it to a point where no one can, no one has to tell you what to do. You master that thing. And when you master the fry guy, the doing the fries, you're going to get promoted to grill. And then you master the grill. You you keep doing that over and over and over again. And eventually you're going to look up in eight years and you're going to have a legit job as a manager of two freaking restaurants. And making real money, by the way. So that's what we need to do. When you, when you go and you embark in labor, in jobs, you need to do the best to do to the best of your ability. And you and you need to work a little extra hard. This one, one, one place where people's ego can get in the way. Instead of saying like, well, hey, how do you, can you show me how to do that again?

• 13:55Jocko Willink?

  They just don't, they don't ask that little question. Can you show me, can you show me how to set that timer again on the fries? And they don't want to look stupid, so they don't ask. Now they don't know how to do it. And now they burn some fries. You see what I'm saying? You gotta engage in the, in the vocation that you're getting engaged in. You gotta get into it.

• 14:16Jocko Willink?

  Um, next one, sticks to job when going gets tough. And they, again, these guys are in combat, they're giving answers. Had it pretty rough at Chip Young.

• 14:29Jocko Willink?

  Uh, the enemy could see our flashes and had high ground. He just kept on firing. This is a dude that's like, okay. Oh, we get slammed at lunch and the fries are behind and people are yelling and screaming. This guy's like, cool. Hey, put more in, got this. Hey, let me fire the back burner. You know what I'm saying? He's going to make things happen. When we'd get rounds on us, he'd keep firing. He wouldn't let it worry him. Sniper shot went through his leg. He went to medics, bandaged and came back to the hill. Continued to run squad, though he couldn't get around much. Bro, this is your boy. This is in the good lane.

• 15:10Jocko Willink?

  Enemy started coming up. He started firing long bursts. Enemy knocked his gun out. He killed enemy with forty-five. They brought it. They brought another machine gun. Enemy knocked that out too. He got carbine on until they bayoneted him.

• 15:27Jocko Willink?

  By the way, American fighting man, coming at you.

• 15:32Jocko Willink?

  Oh, cool. You took out my machine gun? Roger. I'm going at you with my forty-five. You bring me a new machine gun. I'll get that thing up. Or you take that thing out? Cool. Carbine until I'm out of ammo. I get bayoneted. That's what we're doing. That's what you gotta do to get in the good category over here.

• 15:48Jocko Willink?

  Is quick to take appropriate action. Doesn't say perfect action.

• 15:55Jocko Willink?

  Doesn't say exceptional action. It just says appropriate.

• 16:00Jocko Willink?

  Couldn't get a good field of fire to get squad out of a trap. Shorty found a piece of old uniform. Wrapped it around air jacket of the machine gun and walked up over a hill firing over the top of the squad's head.

• 16:14Jocko Willink?

  Dude. Freaking legit. American machine gunners. That should be a thing. It is a thing, actually.

• 16:25Jocko Willink?

  Props to our American machine gunners figuring out how to make things happen. So you know, the the barrel of the weapon gets really hot. So you that's why you have it on a tripod or a bipod so you can fire it and you don't have to hold it. So this guy sees that the his guys are pinned down. So he grabs a piece of old uniform, throws it over the barrel. So he can hold it without burning his hand and just man carries that thing up while laying down fired over his squad's head.

• 16:53Jocko Willink?

  Get that guy a freaking, uh, an army combat, an army achievement medal with V. That's what he's gonna get for that. Cause Korea freaking legit. Uh, next one. And again, this is quick to take appropriate action. No one's gonna tell you like, hey, we've never done this before. You've never fired this machine gun from the hip before. It's too hot to carry. Figure all this out. But he's gonna figure it out. Take appropriate action.

• 17:19Jocko Willink?

  In ambush, truck driver got hit, couldn't move. He ran out under machine gun fire when no one else would, and bandaged him and dragged him back, got hit doing it.

• 17:31Jocko Willink?

  Another one, save, saved boy's life. Medic patched up boy, didn't do a good job. He fixed bandage, which saved the boy's life. Again, just appropriate action. Think about how good your life would be if you quickly took appropriate action at all times.

• 17:45Speaker 01

  That's literally what I was thinking right there. And it, and it really goes deep because, you know, this whole, the whole list, you know, is like, that's not, that's not anything groundbreaking. Each individual one, it's like, oh, you know, it takes responsibility or, you know, this, I'm like, okay, that all makes sense. But it's like, it's, I think it's very useful sometimes to shine a light on certain things.

• 18:05Jocko Willink?

  That's why we're here, bro.

• 18:06Speaker 01

  Right, exactly. So it's like this idea of making things happen, taking appropriate action, right? Like making, I'm like going through the inventory of things that I've failed to do that, you know? You know, because, bro, let's face it, there's a hierarchy of things that are important.

• 18:24Speaker 01

  But a lot of those things that you kind of put off or whatever, i- if you just, if you just take action and make it happen, or if you have that attitude in general towards everything, I can just, like, right now, I'm just starting to imagine all the benefits of that would be revealed, you know?

• 18:41Jocko Willink?

  Yep. It, it sort of goes right in the, in the lane with default aggressive and/or a bias for action. Think if, if you're like, hey, in all situations, I'm going to be quick to take the appropriate action. If you're thinking about that, you're going to do stuff. If you're not thinking about it, things happen and you're kind of discombobulated and they continue to happen. The world happens to you.

• 19:01Speaker 01

  Right.

• 19:02Jocko Willink?

  So we're trying to prevent that. We're trying to take appropriate action quickly.

• 19:08Speaker 01

  The, the world happening to you, like, when you, because a big, the fun- a fundamental part of it is your attitude towards it, right? So when the world happens to you, it has this knack, we'll say, for putting up these little roadblocks.

• 19:25Jocko Willink?

  The world does?

• 19:25Speaker 01

  The world does.

• 19:26Jocko Willink?

  Oh, the world's against you.

• 19:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, it seems, it can seem like that, but...

• 19:29Jocko Willink?

  No, no, no, it is. Like, if you, if you don't, if you don't fight against the world, the world just is going to crush you. You don't, you know, I, I... You've been Hawaii?

• 19:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, bro.

• 19:42Jocko Willink?

  So I was looking at a, a house in Hawaii. And the thing is, in Hawaii, you can see that the nature is going to, is going to take the house.

• 19:56Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 19:56Jocko Willink?

  You know what I'm saying? Like you, you get here in Southern California, uh, you go into ten miles inland in Southern California. And you build a house. That house is gonna pretty much be there for a thousand years. Like it'll be a little bit faded, the paint will fade a little bit or something, but it's gonna be there. You leave a, a house in Hawaii alone for like three years, that thing's gone, dude. It's part of the jungle, gets absorbed.

• 20:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, that's true.

• 20:21Jocko Willink?

  And that's the way the world is. The world, like, it will just overtake you and conquer you if you're not actively pruning back vines, you know, digging stuff out, redirecting water. Like you got checking, cleaning the roof off, making sure the mold's not getting like vine, like it's just the way it is.

• 20:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:38Jocko Willink?

  That's the way the world is. The world's constantly trying to just put you in your place.

• 20:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:43Jocko Willink?

  And overtake you. And so you have to do, do things to prevent it from happening.

• 20:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. And these, yeah, that's actually a good way to look at it. I think a lot of these roadblocks though, or barriers are way weaker than they might seem sometimes. When you have like that attitude of like, no, no, I'm just gonna, like that, that extreme example, but a real good example of the, the barrel getting hot in them saying, no, no, no, that's not a barrier for me, you know? There's a way over this, you know, through this. If you have that attitude,

• 21:19Speaker 01

  yeah, I, I feel like you'd be surprised how the world will accommodate you.

• 21:23Jocko Willink?

  It, you're right. It doesn't take much to cut the weeds back a little bit. It doesn't take much to check the gutters are clear so you don't get leaked. You know, it doesn't take much.

• 21:33Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 21:33Jocko Willink?

  It's like little tiny actions. But if you don't do anything, bro, you're just, your house is gone in three years in Hawaii. You're just gonna get taken.

• 21:42Jocko Willink?

  Ah, another one. And again, I had to select which one, cause you could just read these all, they're all awesome. One night, we were attacked in a small perimeter, gunner and assistant machine gunner killed. He jumped out of the hole with a pistol and recovered the machine gun. Do you know what that takes, bro? Like you're getting attacked and the machine gun gets the machine gun team gets taken out. So now you don't have your machine gun anymore and homeboy just gets out of the hole with his pistol. And goes and recovers this machine gun drags it back under fire. That's what we're doing. Um, remains calm under fire. So this is so important. It's so important to keep your emotions in check.

• 22:27Jocko Willink?

  Heavy 30 cal machine gunner. He was brave and didn't get nervous if mortar or other enemy fired on our position. He just went on with his job.

• 22:39Jocko Willink?

  Uh, my first scout coolness and calmness are what makes him good. Wasn't scared of anything, had three machine guns knocked out from under him.

• 22:50Jocko Willink?

  Uh, always cool under fire, not excited, worried like all of us, but didn't show it.

• 22:58Jocko Willink?

  That's important. It is really important to remain externally calm. And you might not feel externally calm, but you gotta learn to suppress those emotions. And not let them out and let them, let them be visible. And in my opinion, if you do that, you will actually be getting control of your emotions in real time. If you allow yourself to yell, scream, whatever, break down, whatever it is, if you allow that to happen, it will happen and the emotions will now be in control of you. If you go, mm, you know what? I'm really mad right now, but I'm not going to say anything. I'm going to continue to do my job. I'm going to continue to have normal face.

• 23:44Jocko Willink?

  If you do that, you will become calm.

• 23:51Jocko Willink?

  Remain calm under fire. Next, shows concern for others in group.

• 23:57Jocko Willink?

  This is what people notice.

• 24:00Jocko Willink?

  Protecting rest of platoon helps guys without getting too rough. Never interfered with anyone else unless he could help them. That's a really nice one. Like dude, if you don't have any, if you can't help out the situation, why are you running your sock?

• 24:19Jocko Willink?

  Would share anything he had with you. Kind of awesome. Would pull guard all night lots of times. So that that's it. You've got to show concern for the group. You've got to take care of the team. Orderly and clean.

• 24:35Jocko Willink?

  One of the cleanest men in the outfit. Every night. He cleaned his gun, took extra care of his gun. He was clean, also his equipment.

• 24:46Jocko Willink?

  Extra good care of his weapon and equipment, tent, webbing, always an inspection order. Isn't it interesting? You get these guys, they're in the, some of the most treacherous combat. And they're asked what makes a guy a good combat trooper? And they're like, clean. I agree.

• 25:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's, that's a weird one. Not weird, but. Even in everyday life. So you were, you were saying something about, um. The underground.

• 25:14Speaker 01

  You know, the guy's, he's not in a good place, right? Where do we start?

• 25:18Speaker 01

  That being orderly and clean. Compared to, let's say not.

• 25:24Speaker 01

  Seems like a big deal. And it's not, and it's not even like a, like overtly big deal. It's almost like a covert big deal. So like, you know, some people. They just don't care about that kind of thing. And then you compare it to someone who does. And not like, and I'm not saying like full style, you know, not that, just like squared away, we'll say.

• 25:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's a very good way of putting it.

• 25:45Speaker 01

  So if you, you do this very easy, uh. Thought experiment where you're hiring two people to be of make fries or something, right? And one guy shows up, he's squared away. Clothes fit, squared away, shaved or whatever, whatever it looks like. And the other guy is simply not. But. It's like a no brainer.

• 26:04Jocko Willink?

  No brainer.

• 26:05Speaker 01

  You know, like, there's no reason. To choose the guy who's on, you know, everything else being equal. And it's kind of by far too.

• 26:12Jocko Willink?

  No, um, it's, there's no doubt about it. And this is, you know, this is one of the reasons why, like in Task Unit Bruiser, I was very much a stickler on uniforms. When we went, look, I wasn't, and, and by the way, me being a, this isn't like, uh. We were doing uniform inspections every day. I never did, I don't think we even did, maybe we did one uniform inspection to make sure guys had their. Dress, uniform ready in case we needed it for whatever reason. The reason would be some kind of a memorial service in America. But. I don't, I don't know if we ever like literally, eh, we probably inspected a few times, but. My point being, the army and the Marine Corps, you walk into a briefing and you look like a slipknot, you are not gonna get hired to do the job.

• 26:56Jocko Willink?

  They're just not gonna, it's the same thing with you just said, like, I wouldn't want this slob over here to make my french fries, and I wouldn't want this slob over here to be out in the field in an overwatch position protecting my guys.

• 27:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:09Jocko Willink?

  It's not happening.

• 27:10Speaker 01

  It's weird how your mind just kinda, almost like, connects the dots almost.

• 27:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, a hundred percent.

• 27:15Speaker 01

  Like, okay, you ever, you ever been around, or you've ever known somebody who, pretty much every, every time you see them, they're like, either wearing a suit, or like, they're squared away, right, usually. And then, let's say, I don't know, you catch them on an off day, maybe see them at the store, or something like that, or at the park, and they're like, not shaved, and they're like, in like, more casual clothes. A part of your mind is kinda like, Brad, did, are you okay? You know, like, you, they don't seem like, all there, you know, kinda like, oh, is something bad going on? Or, you know, you just have, I'm not saying that's what's going on, but you kinda get that feeling, you know? When, you ever had that experience? Like, a lot of times, when it's like, people you work with, right?

• 27:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Yeah, I'm trying to think if I've ever had that feeling. I guess, I just seems, what might seem out of character, you know? Where I go, oh, kinda makes me just think, yeah, I guess, are you okay?

• 28:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, I, I worked with this guy, he was an older guy, and this is not a big deal, but I'm saying it's a small example of it. And he'd always have his hair like, gelled up, right, as a bartender. And then, I saw him, and it was at the store, outside the store, and his hair was just like, just not done, you know? Like, just not done up. He does his hair up for work, you know, like, he really puts it together.

• 28:27Jocko Willink?

  Okay, now we're going, like, there's a certain,

• 28:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 28:31Jocko Willink?

  You can go overboard, obviously.

• 28:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, fully, and I'm not saying he had this updo, and I'm just saying, it was like, done for work, you know? Just like how you shave for work, or something like this. But I saw him outside of work, obviously, he wasn't working, and his hair just wasn't done, it was just normal. It wasn't messy or nothing, it was just normal. He just didn't look as put together. But of course not, when you logically look at it.

• 28:51Jocko Willink?

  You know, to the grocery store from his house to take up milk or whatever.

• 28:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, but you're, I was so used to seeing them all done up that when I saw him casually, it was kind of like I got that feeling, kind of like, brother, are you okay? You know, like there, there had been a series of bad decisions made and now he's kind of, you know, at rock bottom kind of feeling, you know, but I was like, no, no, no. But it's just that comparison.

• 29:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 29:12Speaker 01

  You know, when someone's squared away, they seem squared away in everything. And when they kind of aren't, they kind of seem like they aren't squared away in kind of everything.

• 29:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the, um, in the Warrior Kid books, I mean, what is this? It's like, this is in there. Uh, Warrior Kid Code Number Six. The Warrior Kid keeps things neat and is always prepared and ready for action. Bro, I mean, I wrote this book 10 years ago or nine years ago. You know what I'm saying?

• 29:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, man.

• 29:39Jocko Willink?

  It's a thing.

• 29:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:40Jocko Willink?

  It's a thing. And listen, we've talked about this too before. I believe in functional cleanliness, right? Like, I don't, you know, I'm not going to, uh, fully detail my car every Monday. You know what I mean? Cause my, it's, I live in Southern California. Like the car is going to get dust on it. That's just the way it is. I don't, I'm not going to fully detail my car every Monday. But you're going to be able to get in my car. If you need something from in my car, it will be where it's supposed to be. If you're going to get into my car, you won't have to move a bunch of trash to get your seat. You see what I'm saying?

• 30:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, fully.

• 30:14Jocko Willink?

  If we get in a car accident, we'll be able to exfil the vehicle very quickly. It's just, if we gotta give a bunch of people a ride, I don't have to be like, hold on a second. I go, let me go to the garbage can. You know what I'm saying? So I'm not talking about, um, that over, overdone situation. But things neat, orderly, clean, ready for action. I think ready for action is sort of what's what I put in the Warrior Kid book. Like, uh, my own, my own gym at my house. There like, I've had people go, you know, you should clean up that chalk on the floor. Hey, there's not excessive chalk on the floor, but there certainly is chalk on the floor. And there's going to be chalk on the floor every day because I'm not going to every day,

• 30:58Jocko Willink?

  go in there and get out a mop. And a bucket and get the chalk off the floor. It doesn't matter. It's completely functional. In fact, in a lot of ways, it's a little bit more functional because you have a little bit more traction, whatever. So there's function, things have to be functionally clean. And if they're not, we got a problem. And Pete, here's the thing, I think the whole point of this is we all notice this subconsciously. We all see when someone is not, would you use put together? When someone is not put together or their gear is not put together. You know, their gear being, you know, the briefcase that they carry or their tool bag that they have. Like whatever, the, the, the clothes that they're wearing. You, those things matter.

• 31:41Jocko Willink?

  So pay attention to them. Uh, he keeps himself and his equipment up. He's just a damn good example of a good soldier. He never loses or forgets his equipment. That's how you, that's how you lose and forget stuff, by the way. You're not squared away. He gets us clean or good clothes somehow or another, and he keeps us supplied with oil, bore cleaner and ammo. He always selects our position. Another one, neat soldier, shaves whenever he gets a chance. Takes care of halazone in the H2O, which is the old water purifier they used to use. Uses foot powder, changes socks, disciplined self.

• 32:17Jocko Willink?

  This is what troopers noticed about good combat men.

• 32:24Jocko Willink?

  Takes orders well. Uh, does any job like they want it done. Any duty or detail that came up, he would do without griping. Never bitches, always ready and willing. Reason we call good men, good soldiers is that they're willing and don't argue. And they always suggest things that slip your mind. We'll go right ahead and do anything you can add, you ask him. Isn't it interesting? Always suggest things that slip your mind. So when you're in charge, you tell someone to do something, they do. But then they're like, hey, by the way, boss, we should do this as well. So this isn't just like a robot. This is a thinking combat leader.

• 33:01Jocko Willink?

  Next one, learns duties quickly. Here three months, gunner already reached gunner in three months. It's just, again, when they show you how to work that fry, the fryer. Learn how to work the fryer. Ask the questions, understand the methodology.

• 33:20Jocko Willink?

  Has high motivation for duties, type of guy, always does his best, interested in job, likes weapon, career man.

• 33:29Jocko Willink?

  Is in good physical condition. Never fell out on March. And now we, so those are the characteristics of a good man. Those are the responses. Here's some of the responses for good combat leaders. Has combat know-how and directs men well under fire. For examples here. When we were ambushed and he was hit by a burp gun twice in the arm, he remained calm, got the squad into position and safe. Then a few hours later, when, when all was okay, he went back to the aid station. Check. Not scared. When we bonsied, he kept the men in line, arranged for proper base of fire.

• 34:12Jocko Willink?

  Old platoon, old platoon leader bugged out on us. He took over, he organized the platoon and organized the position. If he hadn't taken over, a lot of men would have been in bad shape.

• 34:24Jocko Willink?

  God, can you imagine getting back to like the rear and you see the guy that bugged out?

• 34:28Speaker 01

  What, what does that mean?

• 34:29Jocko Willink?

  Ran, ran.

• 34:30Speaker 01

  But oh, like, like left.

• 34:32Jocko Willink?

  Yes, left.

• 34:33Speaker 01

  Damn.

• 34:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 34:36Jocko Willink?

  Um, knew how to move men around when needed. He knew all the weapons and how to deploy them and the men using them. Good leader who knew his job, good professional knowledge. So you gotta know your job. Understand that frying machine. Provide supervision and training and checks on men's needs. Kept men out of trouble, knew how to maneuver men to get the job done. Just took care of the men like they were his.

• 35:04Jocko Willink?

  Again, this is good combat leader.

• 35:07Jocko Willink?

  Sees what men used, need and turns it in reports so they'll get it. That's administrative actions. Oh, you guys need new boots? Cool. I gotta do a report. I gotta explain where your boots are. Explain we need new ones. How many pairs? What sizes? He's gonna do that. Supervises his men, make sure they get clothes, equipment, etc. He always saw that we got chow no matter how hard it got. No matter how hard to get it.

• 35:32Jocko Willink?

  Checks to see if we have enough ammo and equipment. He was always good about attending every little detail, attending to every little detail. Always looked out for the men, made sure the holes were deep enough. Is that easy to go to a guy that's been digging in a freaking frozen ground for three hours and be like, dude, that's not deep enough? Dig more? That's not easy. But that's what you gotta do. That's what your men want you to do.

• 35:57Jocko Willink?

  Checked guard to make sure the men were awake. Checks holes regularly, day and night to see if men were okay and alert. He'd go up and down the line behind the hill to keep them going. If he saw men who should have moved, he tapped them on the shoulder and told them to move up. Around camp, he always tried to train his squad to make them better. Yes, that's not a complaint. That's not in the bad combat leader area. The good combat leader around camp, when we could have time to rest, yeah, we're gonna get some rest, but we're also gonna train.

• 36:28Jocko Willink?

  Here's the one that you might find shocking. Here's the section you might find shocking.

• 36:33Speaker 01

  Military combat leaders out there are hard-nosed, right?

• 36:38Jocko Willink?

  Here it is. Is friendly, respectful, and loyal to his men? And what do these actual responses sound like? Cheerful. Always has you laughing friendly.

• 36:49Jocko Willink?

  Friendly, never mad, always willing to help you do anything.

• 36:54Jocko Willink?

  Combined friendliness with force, so you never resented an order, never argued. Little dichotomy activity going on there. Treated his men right, and they stuck with him. Gave orders in a nice way.

• 37:09Jocko Willink?

  Never rushed his men. He took care of his men. He was good to his men. On a seven-day march over the hills, he kept platoon morale up. Fought for rights of his platoon, gave a hand to the men carrying ammo. So that's what, that's what we're doing. Friendly, respectful, and loyal to your, to your team. Help your team.

• 37:33Jocko Willink?

  Good relationships with the team. This is one that's a, it sounds a little, almost like opposite of that. Lets men know he's boss. So what does that look like? Gets men to respect him and know he is boss. Tough when necessary, but gets along with the men, makes them understand he's the boss, disciplined to maintain good organization. Stern spoken jokes and can still tell you to do something when it's time. There's a perfect dichotomy like, hey, we're having a good time, but when it's time to get something done, that's what we gotta do.

• 38:06Speaker 01

  I always felt that consistency, just being consistent, like you could be like a, and I'm thinking of my football coaches for some reason, but there was this guy who was like real strict for, it was like half the year I felt like he was real strict, but he was real consistent with how he was strict and he was actually kind of like, he'd say some mean stuff too, thinking back in the moment, it's kind of like whatever, because this football culture is kind of like you yell a lot and stuff like that. But he was really consistent, you know, like he was really, it was, we could rely upon what he would be mad at and what he wouldn't be bad at, you know? And then slowly we started, it's funny, started losing like a lot, right?

• 38:47Speaker 01

  And there was like, kind of rumors of like, oh yeah, they might replace the coaching staff, which they did, by the way, but whatever. And I could slowly see him and other coaches too, but really it was with him where, because he was my direct coach. I seen him be inconsistent, like sometimes he'd be way more mad. And I was like, bro, that like, I started to lose respect for his like coaching, you know?

• 39:10Jocko Willink?

  You are even more right than you know, and the, the, where this is really important is as a parent.

• 39:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:16Jocko Willink?

  You have to be consistent as a parent. If you fly off the handle one time with a kid or fly off, and then don't let something slide another time, that's not good. If you fly off the handle with one kid, but you let it slide with another kid, that's not good. Consistency, it, and it is definitely true, like you ever work for someone where everyone's kind of on eggshells because they don't know which guy is showing up today? That's terrible.

• 39:38Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 39:39Jocko Willink?

  That's absolutely terrible.

• 39:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it feels like you kind of, not only will you tolerate, you'll kind of respect the guy, even if he's super strict. And you know what, but if he's consistent, you kind of know what you're gonna get, you're kind of like, I'm kind of down to, to work for this person, you know?

• 39:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 39:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, man.

• 39:58Jocko Willink?

  So this is letting people know he's boss. He says, he can be rough on eight balls. Put them on details and eight balls is like slang for, you know, basically a guy that's a problem. Um, strict, got along okay if he did, if you did what you were told. He was strict, knew the army. When a platoon leader gives the platoon an order, he sees that his squad does it. So making things happen. The next one is willing to undergo the same risks as his men. And this one's real consistent. Never asked the men to do anything he wouldn't do himself. He was right up there with the men under fire. Men trusted him because of their, because of this. If he stayed in the rear, men would think he was risking their lives without risking his. Shows self in combat, doesn't drives the men, leads, leads them.

• 40:44Jocko Willink?

  Never asked men to do anything he wouldn't do himself. Men have trusted him. He, they'll know he'll be there. Doesn't let a man do something he wouldn't. So there you go. This is, this is why you have to, you, you have to take on the risks of the troops. And can you do it every single time? No, but you can definitely do it.

• 41:03Jocko Willink?

  Um, is impartial in treatment of men. Treats men all the same, doesn't have biased opinion against them, doesn't pick on one man for details all the time and details is just like a job. Rotates duties when they're dangerous. Fair gives everyone a chance to make rank. So yeah, being fair, that's a, that's a huge deal.

• 41:24Jocko Willink?

  Uh, next one is explicit in its orders. Tells the men what he wants before they do it. And then they put out. Check. He always explained everything so we could understand. Check. Simple, clear, concise. Keeps men informed as much as possible before going in, tells them all the scoop he's got and let them know what to expect. Keeps the men informed.

• 41:52Jocko Willink?

  Knows what his men can and cannot do. And then the last one has assurance and self-confidence. He knows what he's doing. There you go. Those are pretty powerful. And now we get into the characteristics of poor combat men. And again, there's, we could leave it at just what's good, but when you hear what's bad, you go, oh yeah. Oh yeah. Lags behind, needs constant supervision, irresponsible or stupid. Had to keep in the CP area, no good on the line. You could never depend on where he would be in combat, bogged down in every attack, wouldn't get up the hills, falling out all the time, getting lost. Gold bricked and lagged behind. Said he couldn't make it.

• 42:35Jocko Willink?

  Even though he's physically able, last one in formations and garrisons and garrison got to stay on him to make him do anything. This is just people that are lazy, stupid, irresponsible, don't care.

• 42:49Jocko Willink?

  He was F you on one of those guys. That if in the, if he had ammo, he didn't have a rifle. And if he had a rifle, he didn't have ammo.

• 43:03Jocko Willink?

  He wasn't sharp, didn't use his head in combat.

• 43:07Jocko Willink?

  Didn't carry his equipment with him. So these are like basic things, right? Basic things. That's why you, you know, you don't want to be that guy.

• 43:17Jocko Willink?

  You know, you don't want to be that guy. You want to have your, your gear with you. You don't want to fall out in physical situations. If they need volunteers, put your freaking hand up.

• 43:28Jocko Willink?

  Uh, personal, this is the interesting one about incompatibility is personally incompatible. Don't like to have him around, argues all the time and thinks he knows it all.

• 43:40Jocko Willink?

  Damn dude.

• 43:42Jocko Willink?

  Don't we, we have a, like, when you're a little kid, you get, you call people a know-it-all. That's a thing. Don't be like that.

• 43:52Jocko Willink?

  Here's another example. If he would just shut up and quit shooting off his big mouth about everything, he could at least be bearable. He's a good radio operator when he works forward observer in combat, but he's hard to deal with. And poor example, so it tears down the outfit. Wish to hell we didn't have him. That's a person that's doing a good job.

• 44:15Jocko Willink?

  Hard to get along with. When there is no trouble, he is very brave.

• 44:23Jocko Willink?

  This is such a good little note to self. Listen to this. Always topped the stories. He would always have twice as much and twice as good of everything.

• 44:37Jocko Willink?

  That little one upmanship that happens.

• 44:42Jocko Willink?

  He was always bragging like what a good cadre man he was back in the States. Thought he was a big shot, fairly friendly, but we all knew him for a big bag of wind.

• 44:56Jocko Willink?

  Bitched too much.

• 45:00Jocko Willink?

  He was kicked out of another platoon for bitching too much. Always bitching about something. Natural for men to bitch, but he carried it too far. Always bitching. These are just repetitive. As soon as he got hit, he dropped. Found him three days later. Lied about what he did, rode himself up for a Silver Star. Damn. Went in the hospital, he lied sufficiently to get Bronze Star with V and Purple Heart. No good.

• 45:28Jocko Willink?

  No good.

• 45:31Jocko Willink?

  Is too afraid and is too afraid is broken into two categories. One is doesn't perform adequately. The other one is bugs out. So doesn't perform adequately, scared in a fight, lags back, fires only if he thinks it's necessary to defend himself. He acts like a girl, clumsy, awkward, tripping over things, wouldn't trust him, kinda scared like a girl would act, stays low and whole.

• 45:55Jocko Willink?

  Again, I apologize, this is 1951. This is um the way these guys were thinking. On patrol, only fired his rifle once every two hours, more scared of his rifle than he was of the chinks. Again, this is inappropriate language, but this is what the document says. One night attacked in foxhole with blanket over his head, too scared to move. Nervous, no guts, gotta be pushed. Platoon sergeant, rifle platoon, scared, doesn't fire, stays laying in goddamn hole, puts himself up for medals and ratings. Wouldn't allow machine gun to fire at enemy because he was afraid it would bring mortar fire in there. No good riflemen to be on the line with, afraid to fire his rifle. So there you go. Those are, those are um not performing adequately.

• 46:41Jocko Willink?

  And then you get into just too afraid, bugs out.

• 46:45Jocko Willink?

  Says his back was hurt. Medics can't find nothing wrong with him at all. Didn't want to go up the hills that his back hurt. Went on sick call. Came back the next day after the fighting was over. Never did complain about the back when no fighting was in prospect. When attacked was supposed to come off, he accidentally shot himself through the hand. Shot himself in the fleshy part of his hand once and got a week and a half hospital rest, but was never tired, never tried. Said his pistol went off by accident. Never found him until the scraps died down.

• 47:20Jocko Willink?

  Bugged out twice. Once carrying some rounds up from orders, a burp gun opened up on him and he dropped the ammo and went back to the bottom of the hill.

• 47:28Jocko Willink?

  Strictly scared, nervous enemy opened up, had gone in the hole and hid, threw ammo away to move fast. So there you go. Those are people that are just running away. The next one is, is all for himself. He's all for himself, never helps or is friendly with anyone, even doesn't like it if you ask him for a drink of water or a cigarette. He's got a good attitude for a free world. I can do what I want.

• 47:59Jocko Willink?

  Independent in garrison, only does his job and no more, only thinks of himself. Same way in a fight, digging foxhole, doesn't pitch in, will do his share, but not a bit more. This is, again, you were talking earlier, Echo, like, put, just keep this front of mind. Cause you don't think it's a big deal. You don't think it's a big deal to help the people move the boxes, to help cleaning up the floor, to somebody spills something, you go give them a hand. You just, you just don't think it's a big deal. You think no one notices, everybody notices that you're all for yourself.

• 48:35Jocko Willink?

  On the line, he wouldn't want to help others. He said, why should I help clean the gun? I'm not a gunner. He always has an excuse for not helping.

• 48:45Jocko Willink?

  Men don't like him. He's selfish, doesn't share. So there you go. Do not be all for yourself. Next one, takes unnecessary risks. Doesn't care about giving away position by firing when he shouldn't.

• 49:00Jocko Willink?

  On patrol, we drew fire. Squad leader said to get in position behind a rock or a tree or something. He sat down on the path, right in the ridge line with a rifle across his lap. We started out, he'd stand straight up on the skyline. Went to sleep on guard one night, they attacked, he woke up just in time, had his shoes off and everything. Takes more chances than are necessary. Next one, is unwilling to follow orders. Doesn't give a damn about what he's being told. Bad temper. Doesn't like people to tell him things, likes to do it his own way. Don't want anyone to tell him what to do. Do something wrong and he'll, and tell him about it, and he couldn't take it. So this

• 49:41Jocko Willink?

  is just people that just can't get on board. Gives a lot of lip to the squad leader, he's a hothead. When told to clean the gun, he'd just lay around and when told again, he'd come back with more lip. Lacks interest, drafted and just didn't care for the country or the army. Took no interest in anything, lagged behind, didn't care about learning, getting ahead or a damn thing. Didn't care much or try much. Man, it is so important to get in the game, in whatever you're doing. Is physically inadequate. Not physically fit. Can't keep up on marches, cracked up a couple of times, threw down equipment and started, started back saying he was going home.

• 50:24Jocko Willink?

  Rejected twice before on draft. Don't look as if it is this, he's fitted for combat, all rundown, lagged behind, couldn't keep up. He spent most of his time with us in the hospital with frozen feet. Is preoccupied with personal affairs. He had a wife and kid in Germany, worries about them. Does not want to get killed. Had a wife and two kids, fought a lot about them and worried about them. His folks aren't well, his dad has cancer and he worried, worried he's broods around. Got to have that little ability to separate, work and home. Very important.

• 51:03Jocko Willink?

  And now we get into the characteristics of a bad or poor combat leader. Number one, is temperamental. Had a bad temper. Does say things at times a person can resent.

• 51:21Jocko Willink?

  Would hear something and jump on a guy, but occasionally backtracked if he was wrong.

• 51:29Jocko Willink?

  So you want to remain calm. Take special privilege. Drawing cards for taking turns at guard, he'd fixed it so he'd go first.

• 51:39Jocko Willink?

  Cause everybody wants that for, cause you're already awake. So you're like, oh, I'll take a watch right now. And then echo, you can get it at three o'clock in the morning, you know?

• 51:49Jocko Willink?

  Uh, tell a man not to do something, then he would do it himself, like drinking whiskey.

• 51:56Jocko Willink?

  Is too easy with his men. His only fault would be that he's sometimes a little too easy with goof offs. Played around with the men too much. They would laugh at him and he wouldn't. And wouldn't do what he wanted to get done, figured he was their buddy and they could say, screw you. It happened under fire on Hill 202.

• 52:15Jocko Willink?

  So you got it? That's the dichotomy of leadership. Close enough with your men, but not so close that they don't understand. What the mission is and what we're doing. Squad leader didn't know how to place men in position or tell them how the enemy would come. That's lacking. Combat know-how. Won't admit mistakes.

• 52:36Jocko Willink?

  He was bad because when he was wrong, he would not admit it. Just a little thing. It doesn't take that much. Everybody knows you're wrong. Everybody knows you're wrong.

• 52:47Jocko Willink?

  Everybody knows you're wrong. It's glaringly obvious when you're in a leadership position. Everybody knows you're wrong. Admit it. Take ownership of it and then you can move on.

• 52:59Jocko Willink?

  Is unwilling to undergo the same risks as his men. Big wheel in garrison, but in combat, he would order others to do something and would wait out of danger. We counter attacked Hill on second. And he turned platoon over to assistant. He came up afterwards to see how we made out.

• 53:19Jocko Willink?

  Fails to give his men proper information and assistance. Never gave out information, never helped a man. Fails to take proper precautions for his men's safety. As a squad leader, he was a bit careless at times. For example, he sometimes let men. Throw ration cans around the area where the sun would flash on them. And once or twice he marched us on the skyline.

• 53:41Jocko Willink?

  And there you go. Those are the characteristics of a poor combat leader. And then this next appendix here. It, it talks about the duties of combat and it goes through the duties and these are very tactical and very specific. It goes through like the duties of a machine gunner, a light machine gunner, a heavy machine gunner. It goes through the duties of a mortar man and a rifleman and a 75 gunner and a 57 gunner and a bazooka gunner and a scout and a bar gunner. And so it goes through, I mean, like things as tactical as uh, as heavy weapons squad leader disperse men on each side of the machine gun to give it flanking position. As machine gun squad leaders see that the gun is dug in properly and keep your men together. So it's, it's very tactical

• 54:25Jocko Willink?

  level stuff, but, and so I'm not going to go through those. But it also talks about what is required and the duties of a squad leader. So squad leader, job duties. On defense, I place men foxholes and ammo where I think best. Men come first. Got to supervise, see rifles in shape, change socks. Every move they make, you've got to see they make it. This is like hardcore responsibility and accountability going on. You're in combat. You, you, you gotta make sure they're changing their socks. They're gonna, human nature's gonna take over. You know what? Actually, if I probably can go in a few more hours with the same socks, even though they're sweaty inside these rubber stupid boots that we were issued.

• 55:10Jocko Willink?

  And they're going to sit here and I'm now going to freeze my toes and I'm not going to be able to walk tomorrow. You actually have to use intrusive leadership in situations like that.

• 55:21Jocko Willink?

  Got to boot them along up the hill, make them dig in, make sure they're on the ball at night, stay dispersed under fire. Keep them moving when fired on hardest job in the army. And actually, as I read through the, uh, the other. Leadership and job duties. Everybody's talking about dispersion, which is a huge thing. It's don't bunch up and it's a really weird instinct that people have in combat situations is when you are in danger, you huddle up and you sometimes you huddle up because there's like a little bit of cover. So you get three, four guys behind a little piece of cover, which is terrible. Sometimes you huddle up just because you're, you're just scared and it just feels comforting to be by your other guys and clearly, obviously, if you know anything about tactics,

• 56:06Jocko Willink?

  you just made a target of one now becomes just five people that are going to get wounded by a grenade or a machine gun fire. Like all of a sudden, four guys are wounded, five guys are wounded instead of just one. So dispersion and don't bunch up is a huge piece of what these guys talked about. And he says the same thing. Stay dispersed under fire. Keep moving when fired on hardest job in the army. On attack, I generally lead men, try to keep control of them, holler and motion to show them where to go.

• 56:40Jocko Willink?

  See that they keep clean, wash their mess gear good and repair rips in their clothes. Like this is, you are in charge of every responsible for everything. Going into action, call your men together, tell them what you want them to do and how many enemy there are.

• 56:56Jocko Willink?

  When you get on the hill, have them dig a good hole and clean their rifle if there's no firing going on. And again, you gotta remember how much laziness creeps in and you wouldn't think it was, right? So Echo, if I took your, you right now and said, okay, you're going to go to this hilltop in Korea and you think, well, yeah, once I got my foxhole done, I make sure my weapon was good to go. And you probably would tonight. And maybe the next night, but now it's been a month. Now it's been two months. Now it's freezing cold. And if someone is not enforcing these things, human nature will take over. So we as leaders have to help people avoid human nature. We get that a lot, you know.

• 57:39Jocko Willink?

  Hey, if Echo Charles isn't meeting his sales quota.

• 57:45Jocko Willink?

  Well, do I just let him slide? No, no, no. I actually, you want to meet your sales quota. You're the one that wants a down payment for your new house. You're the one that wants to get a new car or whatever the case may be. I gotta help you get there by helping you overcome your human nature to be lazy and not want to work, which is excessively strong with you.

• 58:05Jocko Willink?

  But you see what I'm saying? We have to help people overcome their human instincts. That's what we're doing as leaders.

• 58:15Jocko Willink?

  And then what goes into doing the job well? He says some tactical stuff like knowing how to read a map and compass, know how to direct artillery, carrying extra oil and patches and rod for cleaning rifle and rolls of tape to bandage men's feet. Like, these guys are in the game. When he talks about what you need to do as a leader, he says, the first thing he says is, make sure men like you.

• 58:39Jocko Willink?

  Again, does that seem to be a counter to the idea that I have to make you wash your feet, make sure you clean your weapon, make sure you change your socks, like I'm doing all those things, but I have to make sure that the men like me.

• 58:53Jocko Willink?

  So you can't confuse helping with discipline and requiring discipline with being liked. Because if I say, oh, you know, Echo, if you're too tired to clean your weapon, go ahead and just get some sleep. And now we get attacked and overrun because your weapon doesn't work because it's too dirty. So make sure men like you. We had this thing. Sometimes there were some, sometimes people had the attitude. You're not here to be their friend, right? We actually, Leif and I, Leif and I, Leif was running the junior officer training course and he had a officer, senior officer that would come in like, hey, it's not your job. You, if, if they like you, you're doing something wrong. He would say this.

• 59:37Jocko Willink?

  And Leif would have to be like, hey, thanks, sir, appreciate it. And then Leif would have to like deprogram the troops. And be like, no, actually, you should, your men should like you. And if they don't like you, you got a freaking problem.

• 59:50Jocko Willink?

  Be sure men take care of their weapons. Dig in good on the hill. Make sure the men are digging good. Don't try and scare the new men. Tell them the truth. Help the men any way you can. Boy, that's a good, that's a good mantra for a leader. Help the men any way you can.

• 1:00:12Jocko Willink?

  Anything you can show them about his weapon, tell them. And that's, and that's what we got there. And then the last thing we're going to finish up for this, for this document is a platoon sergeant, same thing. What are the duties of a platoon sergeant? And how do you get it done? Well, so job duties for a platoon sergeant, find out the best route of approach in case we run into enemy fire. Under fire, tell them to spread out. Here it is again. Get that dispersion. But you know, what, what's going on in your business, in your team? What natural instinct do you have to constantly pay attention to? And make sure that it doesn't creep back in. Tell them not to fire too much and waste ammo. Tell them to cross their fire. Not everybody fire

• 1:00:55Jocko Willink?

  at the same place. So these are all just kind of tactical things. He also says, I always reconnoiter as best I can. And then tell squad leaders what we are going to do and how, if possible. That's the, that's the job.

• 1:01:09Jocko Willink?

  And then he goes into, what goes into doing the job well? So a couple of tactical things. Be sure they have enough ammo and equipment at all times. Check. Pick good positions. See that they're well dug and check. Always try and commit the whole platoon. You know what that means? Echo Charles? Prioritize and execute. Prioritize and execute. So you're going to have, oh, we gotta assault this. We gotta maneuver over here. We gotta flank this. Use the whole platoon. Commit the whole platoon. Always try to commit the whole platoon. You don't want to use a squad. You don't want to use a squad plus. You don't want to use a fire team. If you're gonna do a job, try and use the whole platoon.

• 1:01:47Jocko Willink?

  That's, that's prioritize and execute. Don't piecemeal things out. Don't try and do nine things at the same time.

• 1:01:55Jocko Willink?

  Usually deal through squad leaders builds confidence and gets better results. But I try to brief the entire platoon. Perfect, right? So as often as we can, we let the squad leaders, hey, this, tell the squad leaders what's going on. Use your supportive leadership, let your supportive leadership go out there and make things happen. But at the same time, there are, you do need to brief the whole platoon. Hey, guys, everyone, this is what's going on. Now, Echo, you get your team to go do this and, you know, Bill, you're gonna get, Fred, you're gonna get. But we're gonna brief everyone together so everyone has the overall concept of operations. And then the last thing, and this is the last thing from this document I'm gonna finish up with here. The last thing he says is know how to handle men.

• 1:02:39Jocko Willink?

  That's what we're doing. That is what leadership is, right? You have to know how to handle people. You have to know how to interact with people. You have to know how to communicate with people.

• 1:02:50Jocko Willink?

  And look, so many of these characteristics that we just talked about, we've talked about them over and over and over and over again.

• 1:02:58Jocko Willink?

  But what makes them so challenging is that they are counterintuitive. They are counterintuitive. Otherwise, we wouldn't have to teach these things. We wouldn't have to talk about them. They wouldn't have to put this report together in 1951 to try and explain people how to be good leaders and how to be good combat men. If it was natural, we wouldn't have to put this together. But it's not natural. It's counterintuitive. It's against your instincts. We wanna look out for ourselves. We gotta overcome that.

• 1:03:24Jocko Willink?

  We wanna take the easy path. We gotta overcome that. We wanna avoid things that we're afraid of. We gotta overcome that. We wanna pass the blame. We gotta overcome that.

• 1:03:36Jocko Willink?

  We don't wanna accept responsibility when we make a mistake. We don't wanna take ownership. We gotta overcome that. We wanna be lazy, and we gotta overcome that.

• 1:03:47Jocko Willink?

  That's why that that goes back to what we were talking about earlier. This is why if you just let the world happen, this is what you end up lazy, looking out for yourself. It's not going to go well, taking the easy path all the time, not being disciplined. That's the, that's what happens if you don't push back against the instincts that you have in your, in your genetics. Cause genetically, 5,000 years ago, if you Echo Charles, caveman Echo Charles had an opportunity to lay down and get some rest, you should. If you had an opportunity to eat a ton of food, you should. It's going to keep you alive. Your instinct was correct.

• 1:04:27Jocko Willink?

  Whatever the instinct you had to get warm and get comfortable, you, you should take advantage of that. That's why, that's how you survived. But it ain't like that anymore. You could just sit there on the dang Instacart ordering up the doughnuts.

• 1:04:45Jocko Willink?

  And that's the instinct. Make this as easy as possible. So that's what we're fighting against. That's what we're fighting against. We, we cannot allow ourselves to follow our weakest instincts. Cause they're wrong. They're wrong as humans and they're wrong as people and they're wrong as leaders as well. That's what we're fighting against.

• 1:05:06Jocko Willink?

  We need to do better. Need to be better. That's where we're at.

• 1:05:11Jocko Willink?

  Part of that, in this modern era, of course, you gotta kind of get after yourself mentally, physically. We're training, we're lifting, we're, we're studying, we're running, we're training jujitsu, we're sprinting. For those things, we're going to need fuel. I recommend Jocko Fuel. Jocko Fuel.com. This is where you can get protein, to where you can get hydrate. I just got done training some jujitsu. I needed to hydrate real bad. It was just, it was, there was steam. Steam. The entire victory was steam. 21,000 square feet of mats. It was just a, well, 21,000 square foot gym. I don't know how many square feet of mats, but it's a lot of mats. It's a lot of mats, probably 10,000 square feet or something like that of mats. Anyways, there was like that, that fog. You know what I'm saying?

• 1:05:55Jocko Willink?

  It was on. So hydrate, get right into that hydrate, replace what you just sweated out, protein. I, I rolled right down, grabbed the protein, grabbed a vanilla malt protein shake, which is very tasty. Very tasty. And then we got the pro series now, which is also. Just next level taste.

• 1:06:18Speaker 01

  Is that out?

• 1:06:18Jocko Willink?

  Yep, it's out.

• 1:06:19Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:06:19Jocko Willink?

  Check that out. Uh, and of course, energy. We got everything that you need. So check out JacoFuel.com, get yourself some creatine. If you're not doing 10 to 20 grams a day, you're lagging.

• 1:06:33Speaker 01

  You gotta bump that up.

• 1:06:34Jocko Willink?

  Those are rookie numbers, as we say. Let's bump it up. Are you cycling it where like you take more and then less and then more? I'm not. I'm straight up. I'm just going straight up. 10 in the morning, 10 at night. We're going hard in the paint. Creatine, joint warfare, whole nine yards. We got you covered. JacoFuel.com, check it out. And then also, training jiu-jitsu. I was wearing Origin shorts. And I was wearing an Origin rash guard. And that's what I wear every day when I'm training the jiu-jitsu and what I'm working out. So the thing that's different is the quality and the location of manufacturing. The quality is unbeatable and the location of manufacturing is the United States of America.

• 1:07:18Jocko Willink?

  America! 100% American-made from American-made materials. OriginUSA.com. And it's not just jiu-jitsu training gear. It's boots, jeans, hoodies, t-shirts, sweatshirts, hunt gear, pants,

• 1:07:36Jocko Willink?

  Moab pants, canvas pants, like whatever you need, we got you. Go to OriginUSA.com.

• 1:07:43Speaker 01

  I saw some slippers.

• 1:07:44Jocko Willink?

  They're in the works.

• 1:07:47Speaker 01

  The whole, the full spectrum.

• 1:07:48Jocko Willink?

  Full spectrum, full spectrum. We got it. I know the, the, the soul of the slippers, flip flops, they're not, they're actually slides, they're not flip flops, is uh, the pattern of a tatami, like the pattern of jiu-jitsu mats.

• 1:08:06Jocko Willink?

  So every time you put your flip flops on, every time you put your slides on, every time you put your slippers on, you can be on the mats of justice. American-made 100%. That's what we're doing. OriginUSA.com, check it out.

• 1:08:15Speaker 01

  True.

• 1:08:15Jocko Willink?

  Also Jocko Store.

• 1:08:17Speaker 01

  Um, what do we got new on Jocko's store is get after it. Got that new new.

• 1:08:22Jocko Willink?

  New get after it.

• 1:08:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. But there's a lot of, a lot of cool stuff, stuff on there. Um, sure locker. Underway. By the way, if you didn't already, it's happening. Yeah, that's a subscription scenario. New design every, every, uh, every month. Um, Warrior Kid.

• 1:08:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Up and running.

• 1:08:41Speaker 01

  Up and running. So Warrior Kid, WarriorKid.com, or you can go to Jocko's store in the Warrior Kid section. You know, it's all the, it's all the same. But yeah, man, if you, uh, if you are a Warrior Kid, whether it be in real life or at heart, boom, we got something for you there. Or if you know a Warrior Kid, or if you have a Warrior Kid.

• 1:08:58Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 1:08:59Speaker 01

  Boom, we got some stuff. Yep, they can represent. Boom, we got some shirts on there, some hoodies on there. Rash Guards were re-stocking. That's a hot item, you know, and they, they, they picked those up pretty quick. But we're restocking, we're doing our best to restock. You can, uh, you can sign up for the little email thing. We'll, we'll let you know. Um, but yeah, well, it is Jocko's store.com and WarriorKid.com.

• 1:09:24Jocko Willink?

  Check those out. Also, uh, check out some books. Put Your Legs On by Rob Jones. Check out Need to Lead by Dave Burke. Check out Things My Brother Used to Say by Ryan Mannion. We also have a leadership consultancy. We talk about all these principles, all these, these instincts that we have that are bad and how to overcome them and what we should do instead. If you need help inside your organization with leadership, go to Ashland Fund.com. If you want to learn these skills, go to ExtremeOwnership.com. We have an entire, entire library of courses in order to improve your leadership skills. And then of course, if you want to help service members, active and retired, you want to help their families, want to help Gold Star families, check out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee.

• 1:10:07Jocko Willink?

  She's got an amazing charity organization. If you want to donate or you want to get involved, go to AmericasMightyWarriors.org. Also check out HeroesAndHorses.org. And finally Jimmy May's organization, BeyondTheBrotherhood.org. And for us, if you want to connect with us, you can check out Jaco.com and then on social media.

• 1:10:29Jocko Willink?

  I'm at Jocko Willink, Echo's at Echo Charles, just be careful on there. It's freaking chaos and it's a monster that's trying to eat your time and ruin your life. So just use caution.

• 1:10:40Jocko Willink?

  Thanks to our uniformed personnel around the world, those who are serving currently, and those who have served with a solemn salute to the Korean War veterans. You heard some of those examples today of our American warfighters in a brutal war who stepped up and held the line. Also, thanks to our police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, board patrol, Secret Service, as well as all other first responders. Thank you for holding the line here at home.

• 1:11:15Jocko Willink?

  And for everyone else out there. It's pretty straightforward.

• 1:11:21Jocko Willink?

  Know your job. Keep going when things get tough, remain calm even when things get crazy, especially when things get crazy. Keep yourself and your gear clean and ready. Treat people with respect.

• 1:11:38Jocko Willink?

  Put the team ahead of yourself, always. And, and you know what? These are not characteristics that you're born with.

• 1:11:48Jocko Willink?

  These are the choices that you make.

• 1:11:52Jocko Willink?

  Do not be a poor combat man or a poor combat leader.

• 1:11:59Jocko Willink?

  Be a good combat man and be a good combat leader by making the right choices.

• 1:12:10Jocko Willink?

  And that's all we've got for tonight. And until next time, this is Echo and Jocko, out.