488: If You Leap Into a Well Don't Count Anyone To Pull You Out. The Hunn-Beating Proverbs Pt. 2

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Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 488 with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening. So, Podcast 485 is actually Carrie, not you. You were, you know, extremely busy, occupied, doing something. Yeah. Like vacation. Body surfing. For three weeks.

• 0:21Jocko Willink?

  Well, we started covering some quotes from the Hun beating proverb book, which was published in 1918, and it was aimed at, for the most part, it was aimed at Canadian soldiers who were fighting the Germans in World War I. And I talked a little bit about why the Germans were called Hunn. It was a derogatory name, which was based on a speech that was given by Wilhelm II. Has the German soldiers left for China years before to stamp out the Boxer Rebellion? And Wilhelm II said that the Germans would take no prisoners, offer no mercy,

• 1:01Jocko Willink?

  and that they would be feared, just like people feared Attila the Hun and his army. And so, the Brits and the Canadians and the Americans eventually started calling the Germans the Hunn. And so, that was, that was, that's what this book is about. So, the subtitle of the book is containing many proverbs that point to the destruction of arrogance, tyranny, villainy, vice, and the monstrous militarism of which Germany has been guilty. And we made it through about half the proverbs last time, so we're going to get the second half done. Many lessons, we got a lot of good feedback about that last one. This is ancient wisdom. Yeah.

• 1:46Jocko Willink?

  From 1918, is that ancient? Well, some of it's from prior to that. So, here we go, let's get into it. Let's get back to the book, the Hun beating proverbs. The first one, out of the gate, is a good one. If you leap into a well, providence is not bound to fetch you out.

• 2:05Jocko Willink?

  Hey, you know the bed that you're lying in? Yeah. You made it. You made it, no one's, no one's got to come get you out of that bed that you made. You have to deal with it yourself. Yeah.

• 2:15Speaker 01

  The uh, you know how there's different expressions for that, right? You like, you made your bed.

• 2:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:20Speaker 01

  My favorite one. And I'm, I'm remembering this because I just heard it recently. You chose the music.

• 2:26Jocko Willink?

  Oh.

• 2:27Speaker 01

  So you gotta dance.

• 2:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Oh, that's another good one. Yeah. So there you go. Notice that both, all those different expressions, put it on you.

• 2:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:36Jocko Willink?

  These are alternate versions of extreme ownership.

• 2:41Jocko Willink?

  Next one, if you lie upon roses when young, you'll lie upon thorns when old. Yeah. So you spend a much time partying when you're young. You ain't gonna have the time to party when you're old.

• 2:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:53Jocko Willink?

  Now, some people think that's good. Reverse retirement.

• 2:58Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, I could see it, I guess.

• 2:59Jocko Willink?

  Live it up when you're 20 and 22 and you're all healthy and.

• 3:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:04Jocko Willink?

  And.

• 3:05Speaker 01

  You know, basically when you can.

• 3:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:07Speaker 01

  So, and, bruh. All you gotta do is kind of think about that for a little bit, of course, with contingency, like, you know, like other stuff that. You can't just go 10 to zero. You know, maybe like an 80, 20 scenario. See what I'm saying? Cause when you're old, you gotta have some, you know, something to like, uh, sustain, maintain yourself, but. There's a lot of, we'll call it logic to like, hey, you're capable of living it up when you're 20, 30, even 40, for the most part, you know, I'm generally speaking. But if you spend all that time like doing chores, the chores of life, it's like, bro, you're gonna miss out on some stuff that you simply cannot do when you're older. It kind of makes sense.

• 3:52Speaker 01

  Like you can't go. I don't know. You know, cliff jumping, for example.

• 3:57Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and it's hard to do when you're 80.

• 3:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:59Jocko Willink?

  Not saying you can't do it.

• 4:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, low cliff, bruh. I don't know, bruh. There's like eight people in the world who's gonna cliff jump at 80, you know?

• 4:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, true.

• 4:08Speaker 01

  It ain't me, but yeah, I dig it.

• 4:11Jocko Willink?

  Yep. There is something to be said for. You know, you know how you feel when you're done with a workout, like a workout that you didn't want to do. Like for instance, today, I didn't, I didn't feel like working out. Uh, and I had to do squats, which we know is a, it's a big step, right? And I didn't feel like doing it, but I knew that when I was done, I was gonna be like stoked that I did it.

• 4:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:32Jocko Willink?

  Right? Because now I'm in the present.

• 4:37Jocko Willink?

  And you kind of have to set yourself up for your future presence. So if you're, if you, and like you said, there's got to be a balance to it. If you're just getting crazy and you're and cause, cause that's another piece of it, right? If you're getting crazy when you're young. Well, you didn't take care of your health. So now you're in bad shape when you're older.

• 4:55Speaker 01

  Right.

• 4:56Jocko Willink?

  If you take care of yourself when you're young and you can still be in good shape and maybe you can do a low cliff dive when you're 80.

• 5:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're right about that present thing. So that dawned upon me yesterday as well. Well, that was today in your case, but where yeah, you have almost this kind of like gray area that kind of expands on like what you should be paying attention to. And of course you'd be paying attention to everything, right? Learning from your past and then like planning for the future, whatever. I think that's a responsible way to do it for sure. But even when you're preparing for your future present, as you put it, which is a good way to put it, by the way. You're still in the present. So what past situation did you accommodate your present situation? So squats, for example.

• 5:43Speaker 01

  If you were drinking the night before, you kind of, kind of screwed up your present self at the, at that moment. See what I'm saying? So you didn't drink. So it's like one of those things where you constantly got to be cognizant of your future present. See what I'm saying? But if you get too cognizant, you screw your present present. You see what I'm saying? So it's kind of like, oh yeah. It's almost like, yes, I'm glad that I did this, but

• 6:10Speaker 01

  I can't really be glad because I'm too busy worrying about my future present.

• 6:14Jocko Willink?

  I've definitely ventured into that zone in my life, for sure.

• 6:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:17Jocko Willink?

  Where

• 6:20Jocko Willink?

  for instance, and one, one thing that I'm, you know, you know, I'm very paranoid about being late.

• 6:24Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 6:24Jocko Willink?

  Right? So there's times in my life where I could have tried to do something, but it, there was a risk that I might be late for something else. Just a risk. Maybe the risk was 10%. 10%, but I'm so paranoid about being late that I wouldn't do this other thing, whatever it might be. And, and there's times where that was like, oh, a work-related thing, like, oh, I'm not going to involve with this thing because I gotta do this and I don't want to, I wanna, don't want to be late for that thing. So, you know, not gonna do it.

• 6:56Jocko Willink?

  Hey, there's, oh, there's good waves. Oh, but I gotta, I gotta be at work at eight. There's a chance, there's a chance when you're surfing that you lose your board and you gotta find it and now you don't get to the beach when you thought you were gonna be to the beach and, and now you're 10 minutes late for work. So what do I do? Not surf.

• 7:15Speaker 01

  Don't go surf.

• 7:15Jocko Willink?

  And that's, I've done that before in my life. I didn't do it a lot and I definitely figured out, hey, okay, that means planning-wise, instead of getting out of the water, planning to get out of the water at, you know, seven, I'll get out of the water at 6:50. So that gives me the 10 minute, and I already had fudge factor built in because I was so paranoid about being late. But it is definitely something that I could have. There's times in my life where I didn't take advantage of a current thing because I was too worried about the future.

• 7:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:47Jocko Willink?

  And so that, that's, that's cost me.

• 7:49Speaker 01

  Let me ask you this because I did catch that part. I listened to the last one of these you and Carrie. And you talked about the whole being late thing and you guys kind of like chopped it up about like, you know, how it's like, I, I know you over said it to make a point. So how it's just like this massive disrespect to yourself and to your life and all this stuff or whatever, which I felt it, I felt it. And actually just listening to you guys say it, almost like, I guess it's from a detached perspective, you know, where a lot of times when I'm involved, I'm thinking of my own philosophy, you know? And I compare it, but I'm kind of in the moment, but I was listening to you guys and I was like, right, he kind of has a point, bro. I mean, I know he's like

• 8:29Speaker 01

  well, yeah. Yeah, there, there's a difference between having, having a point and being 100% correct. There, there's a difference there. So when I was listening, I was like, bro, he has more of a, I'm The point is landing harder and and better than it has in the past. We'll say that not to say it hasn't landed in the past, but it's better like it kind of like affected me a little bit more. So it's like, maybe I could benefit if I really took this to heart like, hey, this is really a character thing, you know? Where me not caring about being late as much as I maybe should is a bad thing on my kind of character, you know? Because there's more to life than like me freaking, I don't know, sleeping in that in extra eight minutes or whatever it is I'm doing, you know?

• 9:14Speaker 01

  I always looked at it like.

• 9:17Speaker 01

  I'm not gonna take like if if I'm giving my time to someone else, I'm not going to give them more of my time. If they're giving me whatever they're giving me in return for the time, you know, it's like, that's the deal we made. And hey, maybe I'll give you more, totally.

• 9:30Jocko Willink?

  You said eight o'clock.

• 9:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:31Jocko Willink?

  That's the contract.

• 9:32Speaker 01

  Hey, look.

• 9:33Jocko Willink?

  It's the deal.

• 9:34Speaker 01

  Maybe I'll get there at seven fifteen, give you an extra 10 minutes if I feel like it. But I shouldn't be shamed if I don't. You see what I'm saying? And hey, look, we're nobody's perfect, you know? So I might show up at freaking eight oh two or whatever, whatever. That's my justification. But if you make it a point, I think that I think there's more benefits to that now. Where it's like, that's who you are. And then because you guys talk about being reliable, being a reliable person. So cool, reliable person. That sounds good, but that doesn't hit you as hard as, hey, this guy's unreliable. See what I'm saying? I'm like.

• 10:05Jocko Willink?

  That is a big difference. That's a stark difference.

• 10:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I think so. But here's the question for you, Chuck.

• 10:12Speaker 01

  How much of this?

• 10:16Speaker 01

  Is you just like saying it to yourself like, hey, I'm, I have this rule. And it's based on these reasons, but I have this rule and really that's what it's about. Like, I'm just sticking dogmatically just to my rule because it's my rule. You know, I made this decision for myself and I can't break it because whatever, you know?

• 10:35Jocko Willink?

  I think I think it's that there's some of that, but there's also just the pragmatic knowledge of.

• 10:44Jocko Willink?

  That of just like, oh yeah, being on time. Like, I don't want to signify when I walk into a room. When I walk into a room, I don't want to signify to the nine people that are in the meeting, or the 15 people that are in the meeting, or the 20 people that are in the meeting. I don't want to signify to them, I am not reliable and I'm not a good planner. And I don't really have my life squared away because I couldn't do the bare minimum task. The bare, and this is what we talked about with Bobby Holland too. With Bobby Holland, like, the master chief told me, the first day I got to the SEAL Team, "Don't be late." He didn't, he didn't give me all the other reasons. He didn't say, you know, it's important on time, on target. He didn't say in a tactical situation,

• 11:28Jocko Willink?

  when bombs are dropping, if you're off. He didn't say any of that stuff. He said, "Don't be late." That's all he said. And what I realized is that is a core competency and it's a, you know, Bobby and I talked a lot about reputation on that podcast as well. Like, what is your reputation? Is your reputation, you're reliable, or your reputation that you're unreliable? And if you can't show up on time with the right gear, no, what is, how am I supposed to count on you? So, I think that landed. Because I never really even thought about being on time when I was a kid. When I was in high school, when I, I wasn't like, gotta get to practice on time,

• 12:12Jocko Willink?

  or don't want to be late for this class. I didn't have one, I probably didn't have, I probably had an actual number zero of times that I was thinking to myself, "I don't want to be late because I don't want to damage my reputation and appear to be an unreliable person." I might have been like, "Oh, I don't want to get a freaking tardy slip or whatever." But I wasn't, I didn't put two and two together. So, I think it is a combination of, hey, look, just gonna be on time, and then... And then, you know, in a way, your reputation is part of the champ. And I'll tell you another thing that I'm very lucky is my wife is an on time person.

• 12:47Speaker 01

  Oh, she is.

• 12:47Jocko Willink?

  She's not a lagger. And I know some guys that are married to to women that are not. And some, some men that are married, some men aren't going to be on time and their women is, and they get freaking.

• 12:58Speaker 01

  Dreamed.

• 12:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, they get, they get the hostilities in the different direction. Do you get that a little bit?

• 13:02Speaker 01

  They do. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Not all the time.

• 13:05Jocko Willink?

  Cause, cause your wife is more on the squared away side. Like if we had, if we had a scale of being squared away and you were on one side and she was on the other. She would, she would win.

• 13:17Speaker 01

  I would say generally speaking, let's say there's a.

• 13:20Jocko Willink?

  Bro, if I need something from the Charles family.

• 13:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:23Jocko Willink?

  If I need a, a tax document or something, I am 100% not talking to you.

• 13:29Speaker 01

  That is a good decision. Yeah.

• 13:31Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 13:31Speaker 01

  And yeah, to talk to her about that will be 100% the correct move.

• 13:35Jocko Willink?

  It's happened. She's writing, I don't know if she writes it down, but I, in my mind, I see her writing it down. Like putting on her task list that is being executed currently.

• 13:43Speaker 01

  That is correct.

• 13:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 13:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:44Jocko Willink?

  Squared away.

• 13:45Speaker 01

  So that, so I guess the next question would be, that's good, of course. But how much are you missing by being super dogmatic with, because you've mentioned the surfing thing, right?

• 13:57Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 13:58Speaker 01

  Where, you know, that idea where you kind of look back and you'd be like, man, I wish I would have done more of that.

• 14:03Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 14:04Speaker 01

  You know, for all these different reasons that are, a lot of times they're lasting reasons too, you know?

• 14:09Jocko Willink?

  I, I, I have some of that. I have some of that, but the fact of the matter is I wasn't so dogmatic that I didn't surf. You know what I mean? Like, there's some days where I was like, ah, you know what? I, I, I'm not going to surf today. But there's many more days where I was like, oh yeah, we're, we're going to squeeze this in. We're going to make this happen.

• 14:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:28Jocko Willink?

  Like, this is what we're doing.

• 14:29Speaker 01

  So we're paying, you're paying attention.

• 14:30Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah. So I, I wasn't, you know, uh, you, you can meet like a career naval officer. And they retire from the Navy and they don't, they didn't go surfing. You know what I mean?

• 14:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:45Jocko Willink?

  That's exemplifying anything that was fun, adventurous, like outside the box, they were, they didn't do any of it. And you, you can see it's not, doesn't seem like it was a good call. You know, it seems like the better call would be to do cool stuff and.

• 15:02Jocko Willink?

  Go, you know, that's another thing Bobby and I talked about was just like, always go out, you know, always go out. And again, you you you go on a trip. This is the military life is like this, like you go on a trip somewhere. Here's something I never, I didn't do is we go to some city and there's some tourist attraction.

• 15:23Jocko Willink?

  That's world renowned. I'm not going. You know what I mean? I'm probably lifting, honestly. I'm probably doing some kind of P T. And guys like, oh, do you want to go see this such and such site? And I'm like, dude, don't care. Yeah. And now part of this because I don't care. And I've never looked at a picture of a site and said, wow, I can't believe I was in wherever and I didn't go see the thing. Just to see. Yeah, I I've never felt that one time.

• 15:47Speaker 01

  I got to say I'm with you 100% and the I would rather go to Paris, France, or these exotic, you know, places that we might think of as exotic and be able to remember in my mind or say, tell to my kids or whatever that like, I worked out in a Paris gym, you know, more so than, oh, I looked at the Eiffel Tower with my eyes or whatever. It's like, it's different. Of course, there's many, many exceptions. Like, it depends on who you're going with. So like, I don't know. Yeah, a lot of times like on a work trip, or I don't know, you go on like something where they want to see this. And I'm like, wait, wait, but what do you do there? He goes, no, no, you just look at it.

• 16:21Jocko Willink?

  Dude, I'll go to an American city and they'll be like, oh, you're gonna spend any time, you know, you're gonna, you know, they'll be taking me to the hotel. They'll know what I'm doing. And they'll be like, are you gonna, oh, yeah, you have a chance to go to, you know, I'm, no, I'm not going anywhere. I'm gonna go to the hotel gym and I'm gonna lift and then I'm gonna talk and then I'm gonna get right back on the plane and fly away. And I'm not gonna be, but part of that is because I've just traveled my whole life. So, yeah, I'm kind of, I'm kind of a jaded traveler.

• 16:50Speaker 01

  So let me ask you this, you personally, I know my answer. Because I think I feel like we're on the same page with that, bro. But what if, what if you got there and you ran into some other like, uh, let's say, retire, like maybe your age, yet maybe younger, maybe slower, uh, military guy, let's say you went to Japan, right? And then there was a Japanese like military dude strong, like squared away. It was like, hey, I know you like you're Jocko, whatever. Hey, I work out, I'm going to work out at this gym. Only like fucking us, the the big dogs go there. Freaking come work out with us. Would that be more compelling?

• 17:24Jocko Willink?

  Why? We'd be going to that.

• 17:25Speaker 01

  Fuck, yeah. See, that's what I'm saying. Where it's like, yeah, you don't, you're not gonna stand in line to everyone to get a picture of the pink flower, you know, or the freaking yellow bush or whatever. But, bro, if you get an opportunity to really experience like the Japanese, in this case, the Japanese version of like what you really care about doing and interacting with or whatever, bro, that has massive value, I think. And it depends on who you're with too. Like, if you're with your family and we're like, hey, we're gonna go, I don't know, freaking to the Grand Canyon. And you get to see the kids be happy and you get to freaking whatever, like, interact with them and stuff like that, that that gets a little bit different for sure. But yeah, I'm with you, bro. Don't just go just so you can put your eyeballs on it and.

• 18:08Jocko Willink?

  Bro, there's nothing funnier than going to see the Great Pyramids in Egypt with my SEAL Platoon when I was at Team Two. With Drago. Hey, where they're like, hey, the tour guide or whatever, we pull it, we're pulling up to the Great Pyramids. And they're like, okay, gents, how many, how mu- how long do you think we need here? And I go, and I was totally serious. I'm like, 10 minutes. That's how much time I needed. And then Drago's like, I just want to see the rock cat.

• 18:34Speaker 01

  That's what he said.

• 18:37Jocko Willink?

  The rock cat, bro.

• 18:40Jocko Willink?

  The rock cat from Drago. Alright, so, there we go.

• 18:45Jocko Willink?

  Next one. If you save a rogue from the gallows, he will rob you that same night.

• 18:53Jocko Willink?

  Good one to remember. Like, oh, you wanna help this person out? Doesn't, if they're a bad person, they don't care that they helped you out. They're gonna, they're gonna screw you over. If you swallow vice, twill rise badly in your stomach.

• 19:11Jocko Willink?

  Put that alcohol away.

• 19:14Jocko Willink?

  Put that, uh, donut away. It's gonna rise badly in your stomach. But then, but, you know, uh, obviously, it's a metaphor as well, right? Like, what are you doing? If you're doing things that you shouldn't be doing, they're gonna rise badly.

• 19:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, just to like indulge yourself in the moment.

• 19:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, but, but not even just, yeah, just doing things that you know you shouldn't be doing. Like gambling isn't gonna make you sick to your stomach, but boy, it's gonna rise. That's, that's what they're saying here. Ingratitude is the daughter of pride.

• 19:45Jocko Willink?

  Hmm, interesting one, right? Like, people that can't say thank you because they think they deserve it.

• 19:52Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. They're entitled.

• 19:54Jocko Willink?

  Like, of course, I got this, you know. You should be thanking me.

• 20:02Jocko Willink?

  Next one, it is ill to take an unlawful path, but worse to keep it. Boy, that is the truth right there.

• 20:10Speaker 01

  Yep, you, um, with Lee Bob, those, these are all cool sayings, right? We're talking about, and I remember like, so I learned these sayings. Kind of like adjusted and came up with, but they're, though, at the end of the day, this is what I tell my kids.

• 20:29Speaker 01

  So I say, uh, do the right thing, do your best, and treat others like you want to be treated. But there's a little bit more to it, so it's do the right thing.

• 20:44Speaker 01

  Do your best, oh, sorry, do the right thing even when you done wrong.

• 20:47Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 20:48Speaker 01

  Do your best, not try your best, do your best, and then treat others like you want to be treated.

• 20:55Speaker 01

  So it's a, it's kind of like this, take the, uh, it's ill to take the unlawful path, but worse to keep it. So that's like, do the right thing even when you done wrong. Cause nobody, essentially, nobody's perfect, you know?

• 21:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 21:08Speaker 01

  But it's like, hey, if you done wrong, you still got it, you still are on the hook to do right at that point. Might look different now, but you still got to do the right thing, see what I'm saying?

• 21:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's, and the, the big one is with kids especially is like, don't lie.

• 21:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's all complete good.

• 21:23Jocko Willink?

  You're gonna get in so much more trouble when you lie. And by the way, that carries through. I've talked about this before, uh, there was a case where in Iraq, I want to say it was like 2004. These soldiers shot and killed a guy and they planted a gun on him. And if you shoot an unarmed person, you have to, you know, you report what happened, what did you see? What, what, why did you take that shot? And there's legitimate reasons to take that shot. The person was charging at me, looked like they might have had a weapon, looked like they were maneuvering towards friendly forces. I thought he had an S vest, like a suicide vest, like there's, there's a bunch of legitimate reasons. And if you state those reasons, hey, here's what I saw, I was in this position, I entered this building, the guy was standing there. He started to move towards me.

• 22:06Jocko Willink?

  I thought he had, he had a cell phone, he had all this, yeah, it's like, there's, there's legitimate reasons. Where you took a shot at a person that was unarmed. And when you report that up the chain of command, they say, okay, well, you know, what did you learn from it? How do we make sure we can train other people to make sure this doesn't happen again? What, what is the, you know, what's a, what's the reaction that the person had that, you know, how can we train people that that, so there's a bunch of things that will come from it.

• 22:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:32Jocko Willink?

  But you're not going to prison.

• 22:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:34Jocko Willink?

  When you plant a gun on someone, you're going to prison. And that's exactly what happened in this case. And I, the reason I remember this well is because this is when I was the admiral's aide in two thousand and four to two thousand and five, I would see these cases happening and we'd hear about them. And so it was like, oh yeah, like you, you, if you, if you take an unlawful path, don't, don't stay on it. Get off of it. And that's the right thing to do. So.

• 23:02Speaker 01

  Do the right thing even when you done wrong.

• 23:04Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 23:05Speaker 01

  And technically in those situations, technically not even really wrong. You know, the old, the old, what is a good move, bad result or whatever?

• 23:12Jocko Willink?

  Good shoot, good shoot, bad result.

• 23:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, that's a, yeah, that, that feels slightly. You said something and I don't even know if you meant this as like this massive freaking groundbreaking point. But it, it really landed on me. Maybe, maybe it was like at the time or something, but nonetheless, it's freaking stuck as like a thing.

• 23:33Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 23:34Speaker 01

  Going forward. And you said, where do you want to end up? And then I was like, I remember thinking, bro, that it's freaking applies to so much. Long term and short term, by the way. Like, so if, if you're like, I don't know, you just have bad habits or you're, you're doing something kind of wrong, but it's not that wrong, but it kind of maybe is kind of wrong, you know, like that kind of stuff.

• 23:55Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 23:55Speaker 01

  Um, and then, but you really just ask it like consciously, okay, like cool. You're doing this, you're gambling or you're whatever, or you, I mean, these are obvious things, but it applies to everything, but it's like, where do you want to end up with this course of action? Like, where do you want to end up?

• 24:08Jocko Willink?

  With all these courses of action.

• 24:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 24:11Jocko Willink?

  With every decision that you're making.

• 24:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. And good or bad, by the way.

• 24:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 24:15Speaker 01

  So the, the end up is like, the bad one is the real obvious one, the one that you're like, you're like, ah, yeah, like freaking basically. It's hard to really come up with like a good answer. I mean, like a positive like result where you want to end up if you're doing something bad. So it's like even let's say you're drinking, right? Common thing, right? We're drinking or whatever. And you know, maybe it's not ruining your life, but it's like kind of just getting kind of in the way. Usually that's that gray area that drinking continues usually. So if you really ask yourself, where do I want to end up with this thing? You could justify it and be like, well, I'm going to quit at some point. Okay, cool. There you go. Perfect. Quit then. Because the more you don't quit, you haven't quit straight up. And you still got to ask yourself where you're going to end up and you're going to end up somewhere bad.

• 24:58Speaker 01

  There's no good place to end up, you know? So it's like one of those things when you really ask yourself that, it's like, oh, bro, it's fucking. It's kind of a good little, uh, little, uh, uh, prescriptive scenario. Yeah.

• 25:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there's a, there's a book called To What End, written by War Just about the Vietnam. It's early in Vietnam, but it was, it's a great question to ask, like, to what end? It's like, so what are we, what are we trying to make happen? Because that's what in the Vietnam War, no one in senior leadership was saying, to what end are we doing? Like, what is the end game? When do we, when do we say, okay, up victory declared, we can leave now. We didn't have a plan like that. We had all this nebulous stuff. And so we do that in our life where we're just going down the path, but we, to what end are you doing this? Like, you're gonna, you're gonna, okay, you're gonna have some, some, uh, drinks tonight, some alcoholic beverage tonight. To what end? Same, same question, right? Where do you want to end up?

• 25:55Jocko Willink?

  Like, oh, do you want to end up healthy? Do you want to end up wealthy? Do you want to end up wise?

• 26:03Jocko Willink?

  Healthy and wealthy and wise. Remember those things? Tell me in what world alcohol helps with any of those in any way, shape or form. The answer is doesn't. So again, we're paying on alcohol, but it applies to everything. What do you, you know, what, to what end are you doing this? So you're, you're going out and you're buying a new freaking Cadillac, right? That you can't really afford. Well, to what end? You trying to look cool? Well, why are you trying to look cool? And you can just, you ask yourself that question enough times, you're going to realize it's going to really improve your decision making process. Try and figure out where you're ultimately trying to go. So, yes.

• 26:35Speaker 01

  It, it hit me hard on the, this idea of the slippery slope scenario. Um, which what you said right there is even more, that's even more like advanced, like really I'm, I'm uh, I'm uh, planning or, or should I say like, um, what do you call constructing my life, you know? So I can engineer success kind of a thing. And it feels like, yeah, that's like some, some, that's advanced tactics right there, not necessarily advanced, but those are some like higher level tactics just to avoid the pitfalls in life that are normal, by the way. If you ask yourself that, like where, where do you, or where are you going to end up?

• 27:11Speaker 01

  That like in, as it applies to like the slippery slope scenario, because that's what gets us like the, even just something like as seemingly benign as like not working out as much. You know, when you get family and kids, I don't work out as much all the way down to like, I don't work out anymore. That's a slippery slope. You don't just have a kid and be like, oh, well, I don't have to work out at all anymore ever. You know, that doesn't usually doesn't happen like that. It's usually like, okay, I'm going to keep working out. It's like, I don't have time, a little bit tired today because of the kid, you know, and it slowly, slowly happens. But if you recognize it, you know, and, uh, and ask yourself that, like, hey, where am I going to end up?

• 27:45Jocko Willink?

  That is something that I think about a lot is like right down to a repetition of exercise.

• 27:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:52Jocko Willink?

  Of, I feel like that repetition counts in the big picture.

• 27:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:57Jocko Willink?

  It counts in the big picture. Actually, I heard something else. I was, uh, listening to something the other day and, and a guy was talking about the number of reps you need to perform to advance in weightlifting. And it's like they have, you know, you watch thousands of weightlifters, you can recognize, okay, this is how many repetitions you need to perform of this exercise to make this amount of improvement. But I, I think the same thing that you're thinking, I think like, well, I don't have to do this rep that I'm on right now, which I don't feel like doing. And if I don't feel like doing it, I can probably, no one's, literally no one's in the gym with me.

• 28:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:36Jocko Willink?

  But I feel like that rep counts, man. That rep, that rep, that, that rep counts.

• 28:42Speaker 01

  Yep. So there's an additional thing that hit me hard and it hit me actually in a positive way. But as you kind of like get impacted and I'm like, all impressed with learning this new idea. I thought you tend to think about it more and then I'm like, oh, wait, this can happen in the negative as well. Where it sets this precedent, you know, where. It had happened because I didn't get much sleep and I was like, I was always under the impression, hey, if I didn't get enough sleep, hey, today I'm skipping the workout and I'm gonna be sure I get enough and then I'm gonna work out hard and hard the next to get back on the horse. And I'm like, no, no, no, power through it or whatever. Let me just see what I can get, whatever. It's not that big a deal, whatever. And then I went and I had a good workout and I powered through it.

• 29:23Speaker 01

  And I was fine. I was like, wait a second, we can do this? Like, bro, we can, we can still get a good lift on three hours sleep? Damn, I literally didn't know that.

• 29:33Jocko Willink?

  And now I've been telling you that for 10 years, maybe even 15.

• 29:37Speaker 01

  Some journeys are best, you know, but, um, but that's in a positive way. That's a positive precedent that I just set for myself, a new one, but can be negative too. So you skip that rep or that set.

• 29:51Jocko Willink?

  Oh yeah, that becomes a pattern.

• 29:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then the next time it's kind of like, cause you know, if you're, if you have a freaking 100% record of never skipping reps or sets, right? Cause something, a part of you is kind of like, well, that's not what we do. Like if I do, then what? Like I suck and my workout's not as good and there's all these things, right? But when you do it and there's kind of no consequences, you know, seemingly. So the next time you get that kind of compulsion to be like, I'm kind of tired or I gotta go or like I could be doing something else more fun, interesting, whatever, you're gonna do it again because that precedent always been, already been set. You know what I'm saying? You gotta watch out for that.

• 30:25Jocko Willink?

  Rome wasn't built in a day. It also didn't collapse in a day. It collapsed a little bit at a time. All right, next one. Kindle not the fire that you cannot extinguish. That's a good one, man. That's a good one. When you start getting engaged in things and I think of drama when I think of this. When you start getting engaged in drama, sometimes you can't, you're not gonna be able to get out of it. Like the little thing that you want to bring up to someone.

• 30:50Jocko Willink?

  And now all of a sudden, what, what did you start? What kind of fire did you start? Might not be good. So that's always important to think about. Kindle not the fire you cannot extinguish. Next one, knaves imagine nothing can be done without knavery.

• 31:07Jocko Willink?

  Right? So that's the person that's always suspicious because they're freaking acting out of line.

• 31:12Speaker 01

  Wait, so what it, I mean, this is, I feel like you know, you know, these words and I don't.

• 31:17Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 31:17Speaker 01

  But I feel like I've heard you say these words like what's a nave?

• 31:20Jocko Willink?

  It's just like a scoundrel, like a person that's plotting behind the scenes, you know, that's like a nave.

• 31:26Speaker 01

  Okay. So naves imagine nothing can be done without na- oh, okay, okay, gotcha.

• 31:30Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, like a scoundrel doesn't think anything can be done without being a scoundrel.

• 31:34Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 31:34Jocko Willink?

  So because they steal stuff, when you have something, they're like, where'd you get that from?

• 31:39Speaker 01

  Gotcha.

• 31:40Jocko Willink?

  You stole it.

• 31:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, it, I mean, it feels like the obvious answer is yes. You think that the, the, you know, people, it's real common to hear people say, oh yeah, like massively successful people, they'll look at them, right? A person will look at a massively successful person and be like, well, how many people did he screw over to get to that position? You know, kind of, kind of that vibe.

• 31:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's the person that's will screw people over to get ahead.

• 32:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, the nave.

• 32:02Jocko Willink?

  Uh, next one, leave not the sword in the hand of an idiot. Okay, you know what? We say, of course not, but how often like you got a project, you got something going on? And you put someone in a position when they shouldn't be in that position and they're an idiot. They're not going to do smart things. People that are idiots don't become smart miraculously overnight. People that do, people that have a pattern of doing dumb things are going to continue to do dumb things. So one must use caution when you're dealing with idiots.

• 32:33Speaker 01

  You ever, uh,

• 32:36Speaker 01

  think about that idea of, uh,

• 32:39Speaker 01

  the saying is something along the lines of, don't attribute malice, I think it is, malice to incompetence.

• 32:46Jocko Willink?

  Incompetence.

• 32:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's kind of the same vibe as well, right? Where it's like, you give an idiot a sword, he's going to kind of start cutting some people. And it looks like this motherfucker is just kind of cutting people, but it's like, he just doesn't know how to use it, you know?

• 33:00Jocko Willink?

  He's just, yeah, dropping it and sleeping with it.

• 33:02Speaker 01

  Incidentally cutting people, you know, kind of a thing. And then people think that he's, he's ruining things on purpose, but it's like, well, no, he just doesn't know how to not ruin things. Cause he's a idiot, as it may be.

• 33:15Jocko Willink?

  Uh, next one's a classic. We should remember little things affect little minds. And this is when we get all wrapped up about letting something bother us that we it's like, well, this doesn't bother me. This is like, I'm not gonna let that bother me. Shouldn't bother you. So don't let little things affect little minds. Be a big, be a big minded person. And then little things don't really bother you.

• 33:40Jocko Willink?

  Pretty good advice. I guess the thing to think about though, is you know, the little is doing the little things, right? You know, it's like being late. Being late could be considered a little thing by some people, right? And I hate to be harping on this, but there's many examples like that.

• 33:55Jocko Willink?

  Make sure you do the little things, right? You shouldn't. It's not that you shouldn't be concerned with little things, but little things out in the world, little, little uh,

• 34:04Jocko Willink?

  slings and arrows that hit you. Don't worry about them too much. They're not gonna bother you. They're not gonna, sticks and stones. Yeah. They're not, they're, don't let them, don't let them get in your head.

• 34:14Jocko Willink?

  Back to the being late thing. Mm hmm. Cause I'm stuck. By the way, just, just to, just to say this, even though I hassle you about being late. You know, it's, it's a running joke, let's say, but you actually have probably only actually been late. How many times do you think? I don't know. Five. Five times in 10 years. That's not. All with a heads up too, but. That's not a bad record. So, and these are usually by like two minutes and I'm still hassling you. So even though I harass you a lot of, now listen.

• 34:46Jocko Willink?

  If we wanted to talk about jujitsu, which is where you got the reputation for being late is a whole different thing. Yes. It's a whole different thing. That's where, that's why I originally would hassle you about being late. Because we would, you know, some people skip the warmups. Yes. Bro, you would not only skip the warmups, you'd skip a lot of stuff. And then you roll in, bro. I'm on round, I'm on round four of the open mat time. Which is now 20 minutes deep, but the class started an hour ago. Now you're rolling into train. Sometimes. So you think I'm gonna hassle you about being late? You're damn right I am. So that's where your true reputation of being late. But as far as your work ethic, you've only been late five times in 10 years, which is a pretty good record. So. Yes. I harass you about it, but yeah, here we go. So with that.

• 35:29Speaker 01

  Thank you for that. And, and if I didn't, if I, if I wasn't at this current state in regards to my opinion of being late, that would have, you would have took a step backwards from, from my progress by just basically saying, hey, no, no, no, you're not that bad. Essentially is what you said. You're not that bad. Right? I would have been like, oh, sweet. And, but I'm, okay, so this is how I would think of it. Actually,

• 35:55Jocko Willink?

  You cut it close a lot.

• 35:56Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah. I said, I'm threatening that need a hundred percent. You're right.

• 36:01Speaker 01

  And it's because of the philosophy, which I said many, many times. So, and to, not to put too fine a point on it, but I actually, in the spirit of accuracy, I actually developed the reputation being late at work. When I used to work at the, at the club, I'd be one minute, two minutes late. Oh, frick yeah, all the time. I used to get kind of scolded and talked to by it, but I knew that it didn't matter. Like me coming in four minutes late, let's say, like literally doesn't affect nothing. Doesn't make the club less money. Just because my, the guy before me is like annoyed that he can't leave four minutes. Like to me, that didn't move me either way. I didn't mean to do it, you know, kind of thing. So anyway, whatever.

• 36:41Jocko Willink?

  Screw that guy.

• 36:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, fuck that guy. Put it this way, I would never be mad at that. I think that's a weak thing to get mad at.

• 36:49Jocko Willink?

  It's like a little thing.

• 36:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a small thing. Exactly right. Look, if there's a bigger picture, okay, but I, I, I failed to identify any bigger picture. Here's the bigger picture. So I always have looked at it like, hey, um, is it always that big a deal? Is it? Literally in real life? Cause you're in the military, which that's different. That trains you way different.

• 37:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, being late in real life doesn't matter many times.

• 37:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly right.

• 37:13Jocko Willink?

  So like, like if I, if we're going to dinner and we're going to meet at seven o'clock with our wives and I get there at six fifty eight and you show up at seven oh two, we still have a reservation. We're still gonna go eat. No one's gonna say anything much.

• 37:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, you might, cause you're in the military. So, okay, yeah, perfect. You, uh, Jocko invites me over for the UFC. Hey, main card starts at seven. And that's when kind of like people are gonna like be there at seven. I come in at seven fifteen. Three minutes into the freaking first fight after all the intros and shit. Who cares? Really? Who cares? So and there's a lot of circumstances where like being late is not that big a deal. But here's the thing. Here's what I failed to really like understand and embrace. Being on time is never zero percent. A big deal as far as being negative. Being on time is always good. There are very few circumstances, planning wise, anyway.

• 38:11Speaker 01

  That being on time is a bad thing because you're on time.

• 38:16Speaker 01

  But and so I'm gonna go back to the one, this is just a fun little exercise where I would justify being uh. Being okay with being late.

• 38:26Speaker 01

  You know, like someone says, oh yeah, we're having a party at my house, right? If I'm just a little thing, we'll uh, you know, whatever. Uh, it's gonna start at two in the day. And I'm like, no, I'm ahead of time, dude, you know, roll up at one forty-five, right? Fifteen minutes, not crazy.

• 38:42Speaker 01

  I'm gonna come in at one forty-five, meanwhile, you get there and they're not ready to receive guests yet. Someone's still cleaning up, you know, they're wiping the counter, they're putting away the trash that they, you know, they're setting up or whatever. You put more stress on that person. If you didn't come on time or fashionably late, see what I'm saying? So I used to justify myself like that too, a lot of the time, you know, where I'm like, well, no, like maybe. Maybe being late. Kinda can be good sometimes, see what I'm saying? And then just incorporate it as the philosophy in general, see what I'm saying?

• 39:12Jocko Willink?

  Bad philosophy.

• 39:13Speaker 01

  Bad. Being on time is never a bad thing. That's it. At the end of the day, no matter how you slice it, being on time is not a bad thing.

• 39:22Jocko Willink?

  Next one, little strokes fell great oaks. Those little things take you down, little tiny things. Death of a thousand cuts, they say.

• 39:31Jocko Willink?

  Man punishes the action, but God the intention.

• 39:37Jocko Willink?

  Intentions are very important in things, very important in things. Like, why did you actually do this? What was the reason for you doing this?

• 39:46Jocko Willink?

  Malice is poisoned by its own venom. True statement. There's a lot of faith in these, in these proverbs. That kinda like you're gonna get what's coming to you.

• 39:59Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 40:01Jocko Willink?

  You know, and quite frankly, I agree with that. And I don't agree with it from, from like, a karmic type, you know, unseen hand. But like, you screw people over, it's gonna come back to you. You treat people badly, it's gonna come back to you. You do things that you shouldn't be doing, it's gonna come back to you. Like, that's the reality.

• 40:23Speaker 01

  It's like, that's the mechanics of how the world works. And yeah, and that is true, especially, especially like, because the world is full of people, you know?

• 40:35Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 40:36Speaker 01

  So like, you can even know that this is against the rules, the world is still gonna behave that way. Like, like, for example, you know, I feel like dads embrace this more than moms, but you know, like, okay, a kid hits your kid.

• 40:50Speaker 01

  A lot of the time, the dad's gonna be like, probably hit him back. Here's why it's, we're compelled to feel that, even if we don't say it, we'll feel that, you know? Because that's how the world works. If you go around stepping on people's feet, it's like, immediately, if not just a matter of time before someone starts stepping on your feet as well. See what I'm saying? Like, that's literally how, and that's kinda, and it applies to everything. So it's like, yeah, when you say you're gonna get what's coming to you, yeah, 100%, because that's literally how the world works.

• 41:14Jocko Willink?

  Yes, that's the way it works.

• 41:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:18Jocko Willink?

  Many talk like philosophers and live like fools. It's a good one. The, the, this is the unfortunate reality is, it's some, many of the things that we're talking about even right now are easier said than done. And people like to say them, but they don't do them.

• 41:36Jocko Willink?

  Much better never catch a goose than let him go again.

• 41:42Jocko Willink?

  Much never, much better to never catch a goose than to let him go again. And I kinda, I, when I, when I read that one, I was kind of curious because I didn't, as a modern human, I didn't quite fully understand the value of a goose. Right? You'd think it'd be, it'd be, you'd say something like, it's better to never have gold than to have to give it away. But they say goose. And as I dug down on it, geese are very valuable for a multitude of reasons. They make eggs, they have meat, they have down, like, uh, they have fat, which is good for preserving things. And believe it or not, they're guards. Like they'll guard your property and make noise if someone's coming up and get in their face. So, hey, you're rolling your eyes.

• 42:26Speaker 01

  No, I'm not rolling my eyes. I'm actually laughing because I know that firsthand. I know a hundred percent. Our neighbor had a goose.

• 42:31Jocko Willink?

  Oh, there you go.

• 42:32Speaker 01

  This thing was freaking hostile. It was a hostile goose. It was great.

• 42:36Jocko Willink?

  Check. And what they're saying here is, this is kind of like, I guess if we were, if I was trying to translate, it's better to never have gone in business class on a plane than to have, than to go there for a while than have to go back.

• 42:49Speaker 01

  Wait, say that again. It's better than not have gone to business class on a plane?

• 42:52Jocko Willink?

  Yep. Like, once you, once someone's been in business class, now you gotta get stuffed back in economy. People are like, oh my God, this is terrible. Bro, until you know about business class, you, you're like, whatever. This is the way it is. We're back there in the, in the, in the cheap seats. My legs are a little cramped up. There's no power outlet. Somebody's elbowing you the whole time.

• 43:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:12Jocko Willink?

  Just, that's just the way the way travel is.

• 43:13Speaker 01

  The way it is.

• 43:14Jocko Willink?

  You know? So, that's kind of a similar thing that they're saying here, you know? Better just to like, but do I agree with that? Hmm. I don't think I agree with it because I think you should be, alright, well, I had the goose. I liked it. I'm gonna get it back.

• 43:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:28Jocko Willink?

  So I think it's, I think it's alright. But I can understand how, I can, I can definitely see that it is much harder to have to give up wealth than it is to not have ever had wealth.

• 43:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:42Jocko Willink?

  Right? If you're someone that, you know, if you had your own room in your apartment and you're stoked.

• 43:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, hell yeah.

• 43:52Jocko Willink?

  Then you have to get a roommate?

• 43:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:54Jocko Willink?

  It's a bummer, but if you always had a roommate, you don't think anything of it. Just like, hey, of course you've got a roommate, helps with the rent, all good. Oh, we gotta, you know, argue or share the, the one bathroom. Yeah, no big deal. You, you're just used to it.

• 44:06Speaker 01

  Right.

• 44:07Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 44:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's really, that's really the, the, the whole story, right? Is getting used to it essentially like that's the new standard or whatever. And you said this early on with, with it, like with dealing with people, it's, it's easier to give them slack or then take it away or what it is like with slack.

• 44:24Jocko Willink?

  It's easier, it's easier to give people slack than it is to take it back.

• 44:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:30Jocko Willink?

  So if I go, hey, Echo, show up whenever you want. And you're like, cool. And that's how we roll for a while. And then all of a sudden, one day I'm like, hey, you gotta be here at seven.

• 44:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:37Jocko Willink?

  It, you don't feel comfortable with that at all. But if I'm like, hey, okay, you start work tomorrow. Hey, be here at seven. You're like, okay, that's what we're doing. And then after six months, I go, hey, you know what? Whenever you, you, whenever you can come in on, on Fridays, just, just show up, just as long as you get your work done. You're kind of stoked, you're happy.

• 44:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 44:53Jocko Willink?

  So yes, so much easier to give slack.

• 44:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. So the, yeah. And that, just as an individual concept, yeah, that, that, that feels right. A hundred percent.

• 45:03Jocko Willink?

  Uh, next one. And that's, that's why when you hear like Leif talk about meeting me, him and Stoner, and I'm like not talking to him or not smiling, not joking around. It's like, dude, I need to get to know you.

• 45:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:13Jocko Willink?

  Hey, there is a chance when, when I meet my two platoon commanders, there's a chance of one or two of them are getting fired.

• 45:20Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 45:21Jocko Willink?

  You know what I mean? Like, I don't know these guys. I don't know what their background is. I mean, I know that they both are relatively new in the teams. They both have one deployment under their belt. They've done an assistant platoon commander and now they're showing up to be a platoon commander.

• 45:36Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 45:36Jocko Willink?

  You might be getting fired. I don't know that. Hey, chances are only 10% that you're getting fired, but I don't want to bro out with you and then be firing you.

• 45:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:44Jocko Willink?

  Right?

• 45:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:45Jocko Willink?

  So like, I'm going to be measured and I'm going to give slack over time. I'm not just going to welcome you aboard with a bunch of freaking slack.

• 45:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. But you did bring up a good point because under certain types of situations, it's actually better because the standard gets raised in a way. So if you can kind of like remember that as like, what do you call it? Anchor of the standard. Now you have like, kind of something in a psychological way pulling you back towards the standard. Actually, in working out, it's if you apply that concept where it's like muscle memory, right? So if you have, if your body gets to a point where you can, I don't know, as far as weightlifting or whatever, if you can like squat 400. And then, you know, you get injured or something like this and you have to, and yeah, that sucks when you gotta get back after rehab and get on. You can only do like 185 or whatever. That sucks.

• 46:33Jocko Willink?

  But your body knows.

• 46:34Speaker 01

  But it's better to, for your body to be familiar with that 400 and you can get there quicker. See what I'm saying? So under those types of circum circum, even though that pain, I think that's what they're talking about here. That pain of like, shoot, if I never could squat 400, if I always could squat 185 and then I get after rehab, I can still do 185, hell yeah, I'm good to go, you know? So you don't, you are, you don't have to experience that pain. But the bigger picture, it kind of can like establish like a standard that you can easily like kind of navigate to.

• 47:02Jocko Willink?

  Bring you back.

• 47:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:05Jocko Willink?

  Next one, of all vices, pride calls the loudest. This is why we say humility is the most important quality for a leader, for a person. It's just the worst vice you can have is that arrogance. Once a wolf, always a wolf. Once a knave, always a knave. People don't really change too much, be careful. One danger is seldom overcome without another. Something to keep in mind, trade offs, as Thomas Sowell says, right? Like there's no, there's no just winning completely. There's just, there's just trade offs.

• 47:44Speaker 01

  So the danger thing?

• 47:47Speaker 01

  Is uh so sometimes get into are actually not recently this is probably it's been decades probably but I get into these little back and forth with my wife about the kids and like uh so it's like okay I remember when my daughter was young she'd walk we have this pool and there's you know that wall that you can jump off into the pool it's like you know it's not super high but you know maybe six six feet maybe kind of and she would go up there and she didn't know how to swim yet she's like one one and a half maybe and she'd like want to walk up there she'd see I said she'd want to walk and my wife would flip out of course seemingly of course but I would

• 48:30Speaker 01

  be like part of me is like kind of like kind of let her because now she's gonna be very familiar with being up there look she falls in I'm jumping I'm gonna save her it's no problem my eyes are on you know but she's familiar with being up there now she's comfortable her balance is starting to develop more you know like all this stuff or whatever her developing her balance developing familiarity with being up on that wall

• 48:55Speaker 01

  keeps her safe like her capability that she gains keeps her safer right but the trade off is hey if she's never up there in danger she's safe see I'm saying so there's that safety trade off kind of a scenario

• 49:08Jocko Willink?

  If she falls off the wall she falls into the water

• 49:10Speaker 01

  In the water yeah

• 49:10Jocko Willink?

  Okay this is might be the not the best example for you to choose because the reason I say that is because if she if for whatever reason you guys aren't around

• 49:21Speaker 01

  Oh and she ventures up there

• 49:22Jocko Willink?

  She knows to venture up the wall or she she's feel safe up there and then she falls in the water now we gotta you know now we got a terrible situation

• 49:29Speaker 01

  Yes

• 49:30Jocko Willink?

  So that might not be the best example

• 49:31Speaker 01

  Yeah maybe and I could have we could add a bunch of these external scenarios and exceptions to any particular example for sure but generally speaking

• 49:40Jocko Willink?

  That's a pretty clear one

• 49:41Speaker 01

  Okay conceptually

• 49:42Jocko Willink?

  I don't think I'm getting crazy on that

• 49:43Speaker 01

  No no no I don't think so either um let's let's say okay let's say jujitsu because that was another one or it's like the more you go to jujitsu the more dangerous it becomes as far as like probability of injury and like all this stuff just because of the reps more days you're exposed to this or whatever just like anything right but the more jujitsu you know kind of the safer you are outside of jujitsu see I'm saying so it's like this weird trade off

• 50:07Jocko Willink?

  Yep

• 50:07Speaker 01

  In that way

• 50:08Jocko Willink?

  The other thing that's weird about kids is Man, your kids can get hurt doing anything.

• 50:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:15Jocko Willink?

  You know what I'm saying? Like, uh, walking to school, getting in a car with someone like there's just there, things can happen. And if you, if you bubble wrap them, they're not gonna, they're not gonna be safe in a bunch of other scenarios. So. Uh, one ill weed mars a whole pot of porridge.

• 50:35Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 50:36Jocko Willink?

  And they all, there, there's a couple here in a row. One lie makes many. So those two are in the same thing, but then they had one that says one mad action is not enough to prove a mad man. So these are kind of contradictory.

• 50:54Jocko Willink?

  And I have to say, I'm not sure I a hundred percent agree with any of them. Uh, you know, obviously the one, if someone's a liar, if someone lies, chances are they're gonna lie again. So I think that one we can carve out and be like, yep, one lie, you're suspect. I think that one, you know, if someone does something that's a little bit crazy, there's a lot of things that can cause that, like, you know, person makes a bad decision, makes a rash decision. Okay, we're a little bit suspect, but we're not, I don't have to, it's not the same as a lie to me. If you lost your temper, it's not the same as you lying. You losing your temper is your intention wasn't to lose your temper. You just lost your temper. I'm like, all right, I understand. Okay. Echo's got a bad temper. When you lie, that seems to be a little bit different. So.

• 51:39Speaker 01

  Yes, I, I think you're right, given what I, what you're saying.

• 51:43Jocko Willink?

  Now, that being said, if you're a person that lost your temper and now you're a guy that loses your temper, probably pretty accurate.

• 51:49Speaker 01

  It felt like, and I could be wrong, obviously.

• 51:53Speaker 01

  It felt like they were saying the lie part of it and even the other one. Um, the lie part of it is like, I'm saying in a line of like statements, we'll say, let's say I'm interrogating you, you know, in that interrogation process, then one lie makes a bunch of lies subsequently, you see what I'm saying? So if, if I'm like, hey, Jocko, hey, were you at the, in the parking lot behind the store at this time, you say no. And I keep questioning you, but everything else is probably gonna be a lie because it's based on that no. But I'm like, oh, wait, so wait. This isn't you then? You gotta say no. I'm like, okay, then what were you doing? No, there's another one. You see what I'm saying? So it's like you can't tell like that one lie was kind of like in a, in a line of like questioning

• 52:38Speaker 01

  or whatever is just all lies now. Just like, uh, um, like crimes, right? Like, uh, let's say I'm, I'm doing, I'm driving drunk or, or let's say I robbed a bank, right? Robbed a bank, I'm in my getaway car.

• 52:50Jocko Willink?

  Damn, we went from driving drunk to robbing a bank.

• 52:52Speaker 01

  Well, I seen this on like cops or back in the day. A guy was fleeing the scene of the crime that he committed. Maybe it was bank robbery, whatever. We'll say it's a bank robbery, fleeing the, the scene. Now everything he does is a crime, everything. It's all his fault. So if someone like rear ends him, let's say he stopped at a cop, like someone rear ends him or whatever. You have a little traffic jam, he shouldn't have committed that crime. So that's a crime as well. It's always going to be his fault. See what I'm saying? So now he has these, all these additional crimes that he's committed that wouldn't be crimes. If he didn't rob that bank. See what I'm saying? So it's kind of like, almost like that format.

• 53:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And this leads kind of into the next one, which is passion is the enemy of truth. Yeah, I think, I think what passion does is it warps. It warps what you see as the truth. You see, you see this a lot of when, especially in the, in the, for lack of a better way of saying it, like the political world where people are having political discussions or arguments or debates. And I'm so passionate about something that I can't even, I can't even recognize the truth anymore. That definitely happens.

• 53:56Speaker 01

  Do you feel like in, in regards like this way of saying it? Do you feel like passion and conviction are like the same thing?

• 54:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, they're very closely related.

• 54:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, I always felt like people who are so like convicted, which is, I guess there's passion in there. But I feel like that was like the deal. Good, like the bad deal. No, no, no, the bad deal. Where it's like the more convicted, you know, like you always say, like, you know, the thing you always say where you're like, how many times do you think I have to admit when I'm wrong? Right? You know that?

• 54:26Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 54:28Speaker 01

  The it's the opposite of that essentially, right? So when you're convicted, you're like, what do you call bunkered in or you know?

• 54:34Jocko Willink?

  Totally bunkered in your position.

• 54:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:35Jocko Willink?

  It's it could be so it's such a good somebody made a clip of me saying this the other day where I said when someone insults you?

• 54:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:42Jocko Willink?

  Just, you know, agree with them. And it's not like just agree with them like arbitrarily, but actually say, yeah, you know, that's a good point.

• 54:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:51Jocko Willink?

  You know, that's a good point. You're making a good point there. I agree.

• 54:55Speaker 01

  You gotta have in.

• 54:57Jocko Willink?

  Because there's some level of and the more it stings you, the more it's probably right.

• 55:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:03Jocko Willink?

  You know what I mean?

• 55:04Speaker 01

  But you're already good. I mean, whether you worked on this or not, it's just talent. I don't know, but you're better at um kind of recognizing this because like if you were to be like, I am like kind of emotionless for a little bit. And someone says, hey, you're, I don't know, whatever. Your haircut is this or you're short or you're fatty or whatever. They give you like some insult or whatever. If you're emotionless, you can be like analyze it like a computer. We're like, wait a second, wait, I kind of am. I didn't think I was fat, but maybe compared to this person, I'm fat. So yeah, it checks out. You see what I'm saying? So you're kind of like.

• 55:33Jocko Willink?

  Right there.

• 55:34Speaker 01

  You can do that. Most people, the emotion and the passions kind of mixed in there. So it like gets in the way.

• 55:38Jocko Willink?

  To your point, you just said something like, uh, you practice it. It's like, yeah.

• 55:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:42Jocko Willink?

  That stuff used to bother me like some little insult be like, dude, what the hell? Like, I'd like to see you do it like that whole thing.

• 55:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:50Jocko Willink?

  Instead of being like, yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, it's actually, yeah, I guess I I guess I'm not an expert in that area.

• 55:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:57Jocko Willink?

  You know what I mean?

• 55:57Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 55:58Jocko Willink?

  Like, oh, you know, Jocko thinks he's a military expert. Could just because he was in the he just because he led only, you know, 50 seals. That's a good point. Yeah, I'd never led a battalion. That's a good point. There's there's definitely some aspects that I don't understand.

• 56:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:14Jocko Willink?

  Boom.

• 56:15Speaker 01

  Easy money.

• 56:15Jocko Willink?

  Easy money.

• 56:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:17Jocko Willink?

  Like, that's way better than, yeah, well, you know what? It's like, no, that's a good point, actually. Yeah, yeah, I agree. Boom, we're done.

• 56:28Jocko Willink?

  Don't see very much of that type of activity.

• 56:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:33Speaker 01

  Isn't that so crazy how, yeah, this is it, right? Passion is that it's so obvious and of, you know, like how you say in this outfit, being detached, it's like you can see things there and all this stuff. But it's, isn't it so interesting how it's like, it's so obviously the correct answer.

• 56:50Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 56:50Speaker 01

  Like, there's, there's almost, it's very hard to imagine where it's not the correct answer in any given circumstance, right? Where it's like so obvious, right? Be humble, like in the outcome of being humble versus not being like, you know, it's like, it's so obvious, but it's like so hard.

• 57:08Jocko Willink?

  Uh, next one. Peace begins where ambition ends.

• 57:15Jocko Willink?

  I, I can't argue with that really, honestly. Uh, I would say the things that, you know, when you, when you're trying to get to the next level, you're trying to make things happen. It's like, yep, there's gonna be, there's not much peace in your life. Pride is at the bottom of all great mistakes. Ain't that the truth?

• 57:35Jocko Willink?

  Punishment comes slowly, but it comes. That's another, you know, again, they're very, this, this, this, these proverbs rely on that, that outcome, moving inevitably towards

• 57:55Jocko Willink?

  punishment.

• 57:57Speaker 01

  Were you the one that said, choose your hard? Was that your quote?

• 58:02Jocko Willink?

  No, that's someone, that's someone else's quote.

• 58:03Speaker 01

  Okay. So the choose your hard, and this is, this applies to everyday life. So, and then, so there's like, let's say health, for example. Choose your hard. So the workout's hard, like, or it can be hard. Let's just say for lack, it's hard, right? Workout's hard. Um, abstaining from junk food when the junk food is delicious and in front of you is hard. That takes effort. It's hard, right? Now, the result of that is freaking easy, bliss, you know, all this stuff. Being, being healthy is easy.

• 58:34Jocko Willink?

  Strong.

• 58:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. I'm not saying the act of like getting healthy like that part, I'm saying being, you're existing as a healthy person is easy.

• 58:43Jocko Willink?

  Well, in fact, what you just said, the act of being healthy is hard.

• 58:47Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 58:48Jocko Willink?

  But it beats the alternative hard, which is being unhealthy, which is very hard.

• 58:52Speaker 01

  Right. So that that's what I mean by choose your hard. So it's like the act of maintaining your health and blah, blah, blah, that part exercise, all what it takes to be healthy is hard. But the state of healthiness, existing as a healthy person, just existing healthy, healthily, whatever, is easy. One of the easiest things probably ever. No pain, fricking, brain is all clear. No inflammation in your throat from being, you know, strep throat or whatever you got.

• 59:21Speaker 01

  But then you flip it around, right? Where it's like, yeah, being, the state of being unhealthy is hard. But you don't gotta go through those hard workouts. You don't have to abstain from these delicious food. Like that part is easy. That's the easy part. So it's like, right, you gotta choose your hard. You see what I'm saying?

• 59:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. One is voluntary. The other one is involuntary, by the way. You know, which I think is very important.

• 59:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, that is.

• 59:47Jocko Willink?

  Rashness is not valor.

• 59:51Jocko Willink?

  Okay. Rashness brings misfortune to many.

• 59:55Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 59:56Jocko Willink?

  Rash decisions. Just take, just take a beat. Reason deceives, deceives us often, conscious, conscience never.

• 1:00:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, we can reason anything. At least some people can, you know, I can explain to you. I've, I've worked with people who, one of their biggest faults was how good they were at convincing people. Like, I can come into this room and convince you of something that's wrong.

• 1:00:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:26Jocko Willink?

  And I'm so

• 1:00:30Jocko Willink?

  persuasive in my language and my voice and my words that even though I'm wrong, you think I'm right. And we all go and execute my plan, which is stupid.

• 1:00:41Speaker 01

  Yep. Or people who can do it to themselves.

• 1:00:44Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, for sure.

• 1:00:45Speaker 01

  Basically rational.

• 1:00:46Jocko Willink?

  They already, they did that walking in the room. Like they were already, they already, they convinced themselves of that.

• 1:00:52Jocko Willink?

  Selfishness is the greatest curse of the human race.

• 1:00:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And I think not, if you think, if you break that down a little bit, if you're doing stuff for yourself, it doesn't work out well. But you'll be okay for a little while, but eventually if you're doing stuff for yourself, it's not going to be a good long-term plan. Shallow men believe in luck.

• 1:01:14Jocko Willink?

  Shallow brooks are noisy.

• 1:01:18Jocko Willink?

  I like that one.

• 1:01:20Speaker 01

  Oh, right, right. They kind of play off each other.

• 1:01:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:22Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, no, they don't. I don't think they play off each other.

• 1:01:26Jocko Willink?

  Shallow men believe in luck. It's like, oh, you just got lucky. No, it actually took a lot of hard work. It took planning and it took premeditation of what I'm going to go and execute like that. That was not luck. Shallow men go, you're just lucky. So that's one. Shallow brooks are noisy, just meaning like the person that doesn't have much depth.

• 1:01:43Speaker 01

  Right, talking on that. Yeah.

• 1:01:46Jocko Willink?

  Yapping is the new word.

• 1:01:47Speaker 01

  New terminology.

• 1:01:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, terminology. Bringing that from the front lines of the youth right now. You're yapping.

• 1:01:55Jocko Willink?

  Suspicion always haunts the guilty mind. Isn't that a good one?

• 1:02:01Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:02:01Jocko Willink?

  Isn't that a good one?

• 1:02:02Speaker 01

  There's a, um, do you know, have you heard of Chase Hughes?

• 1:02:07Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 1:02:07Speaker 01

  You, I guaranteed you see him. Hundred percent guaranteed, but, um, so he's a, he's like, uh,

• 1:02:14Speaker 01

  terribly, uh, sorry to forget his like job, his thing, but he's like, uh, you know, like these interrogator type person, people know like about psychology and what people say and body language, like the whole deal, right?

• 1:02:26Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:02:28Speaker 01

  So he said something where it's like in a, which applies to this, where it's like, what is it? The guilty?

• 1:02:33Jocko Willink?

  Suspicion always haunts the guilty mind.

• 1:02:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. So when you interrogate somebody and they're guilty or innocent, this will, this will kind of show itself. And he'll say it's like a tactic. So he says, um, you don't ask them, did they do it or didn't do they, did they didn't do it? Okay. Jocko, were you in the parking lot, you know, at this time, because there was a crime, a murder, whatever. You don't say, hey, were you in the parking lot? You say this, is there any reason that three people might've said that you were in that parking lot at that time? Is there any reason three people would say that? And if you're guilty, you'd be like, but you'd behave way differently than if you were innocent. If you really weren't in the parking lot, be like, no, I don't know. Freaking out. All this dumb, you know, like you'd behave way different. But if you're guilty, they didn't even, they didn't say, were you there or not?

• 1:03:18Speaker 01

  They, they just plant this seed of, uh, of, of this.

• 1:03:23Jocko Willink?

  Suspicion.

• 1:03:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, suspicion because of like, your mind has to kind of like venture off into the, you know, into that no man's land.

• 1:03:30Jocko Willink?

  Nice.

• 1:03:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:34Jocko Willink?

  Uh, the assistance of fools only brings injury.

• 1:03:38Jocko Willink?

  The bow that is always bent slackens or breaks. It's a good one. Can't be ready all the time. Sometimes you gotta have that rest day as, as Echo Charles likes to focus on quite a bit.

• 1:03:50Speaker 01

  Recovery is part of the game for sure.

• 1:03:53Jocko Willink?

  The bully is always a coward.

• 1:03:57Jocko Willink?

  And then right following that one, the coward reckons himself cautious. Just being, just being, trying to, trying to keep it, you know, trying to be cautious. Bro, we're, we're doing this. Well, actually we, you know, no coward.

• 1:04:13Jocko Willink?

  The devil can cite scripture for his own purpose.

• 1:04:20Jocko Willink?

  Didn't think of that one, did you? Boy, that's an accurate one. The devil can cite scripture for his own purpose.

• 1:04:31Jocko Willink?

  The fool that eats until he is sick must fast until he is well.

• 1:04:38Jocko Willink?

  Jack.

• 1:04:39Speaker 01

  Where, where we talk, talk about that idea, I think it might've been with Lee Pop. I think it might've been with Kerry. That like this idea where, uh, like ruining.

• 1:04:50Speaker 01

  No, this was in the underground. Sorry. The wicked, do wicked people have redemption or whatever, right? I spent my life being a basically a, you know, a bad person, right? But now I'm literally, I'm a good person, right? But everyone seems to think I'm still this bad person. Like what's up? You gotta kind of do the same thing. You see, yeah, you need to, uh, if you spent 25 years being a bad person, bro, you got at least 25 years to build that reputation in the other direction. See what I'm saying? So it's kind of the same thing. It is the same thing.

• 1:05:16Jocko Willink?

  We called that one on the underground podcast. You know, one, one, all crap.

• 1:05:21Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:05:22Jocko Willink?

  Uh, eliminates a hundred attaboys.

• 1:05:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:05:25Jocko Willink?

  So that means when you have done a hundred attaboys, you gotta do 10,000, or sorry, when you done,

• 1:05:32Jocko Willink?

  a hundred.

• 1:05:33Speaker 01

  Aw shucks.

• 1:05:34Jocko Willink?

  Aw shucks is you gotta do 10,000 attaboys to get yourself out of all. That's the way it is.

• 1:05:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:41Jocko Willink?

  The gains of the wicked bring short-lived pleasures.

• 1:05:45Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:05:47Jocko Willink?

  This is the one, this is the one that I, when we started these podcasts, when I started with Kerry, I was like, there's, there's, there's one of these things in here that I go, wow, okay. This one is, the German may be a good fellow, but it is better to hang him.

• 1:06:03Speaker 01

  Dang.

• 1:06:05Jocko Willink?

  You see what I'm saying?

• 1:06:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:07Jocko Willink?

  Uh, so that's when you realize that we're trying to, they're trying to dehumanize the enemy.

• 1:06:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:12Jocko Willink?

  Might be a good fellow, but it's better to hang him.

• 1:06:14Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah. If you saw, I mean, I, I put it this way, I understand why they chose this at this time for this particular, um, you know, document. But if you replace the German with the enemy, it, it starts to make a little bit more appropriate sense.

• 1:06:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. That's, that one kind of threw me a little bit. I was like, okay, yep. Well, these guys are going to war.

• 1:06:41Jocko Willink?

  Uh, the Lord shall destroy the house of the proud.

• 1:06:44Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:06:46Jocko Willink?

  The fool is busy in everyone else's business, but his own. Oh, yeah.

• 1:06:54Jocko Willink?

  The greatest barkers are always the least doers. Quit running your mouth.

• 1:07:02Jocko Willink?

  The loc- locality, which is talking a great deal, is a lecture to the wise.

• 1:07:10Jocko Willink?

  So if you're talking a bunch, it's like, hmm, maybe be quiet. The prince that is feared by many must of necessity fear many. Yep. Now, how'd you climb to the top? Did you climb to the top stepping on a bunch of people's backs? And you better watch your back.

• 1:07:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:29Jocko Willink?

  If you climb to the top with your hard work and good partnerships, you'd be all right. You don't have to look over your shoulders so much. You have to look over, look, look, check your six so often. The prince that was, that is feared by many must of necessity fear many. The wise man knows, knows he knows nothing. The fool thinks he knows it all.

• 1:07:53Jocko Willink?

  They hurt themselves that wrong others. Cool. Yep. Hurting other people. Think you can get away with it. Can't. It's coming back.

• 1:08:04Jocko Willink?

  Punishment might be slow. But it's coming. Thou art as to like thou art as to like to obtain thy wish as the wolf to eat the moon.

• 1:08:20Jocko Willink?

  Can't just wish for things.

• 1:08:23Jocko Willink?

  Can't just wish for things. You gotta go out and make them happen. You're not gonna obtain your wish. You gotta go do something. 'Tis a sign of an ill cause to rail at your adversary.

• 1:08:37Jocko Willink?

  What is rail? It's like being hostile towards attacking verbally type thing. Oh, gotcha. Ranting against them. Oh, right, right, right. I guess would be I didn't look up the definition of rail, but that's my that's what I'll give it. 'Tis the sign of an ill cause to rail at your adversary. I think that's when, you know, when Echo says, "Hey, I think we should invest money in this marketing campaign." And I say, "Dude, you're stupid." You see what I'm saying? It's like an ad hominem attack. Oh, yeah. If I'm attacking you.

• 1:09:13Jocko Willink?

  To pay one in his own coin. I think that's like giving someone a taste of their own medicine.

• 1:09:21Jocko Willink?

  Gotcha.

• 1:09:24Jocko Willink?

  That's like when someone, you know, like when a footlocker gets footlocked. Yeah. You know, they're getting paid in their own coin. That sucks.

• 1:09:34Jocko Willink?

  Dean Lester always tries to get me to Camira. It's like his goal. Just freaking embracing this. Yeah, he wants to pay me in my own coin. "The mean man shall be brought down and the mighty shall be humbled." Fair enough.

• 1:09:50Jocko Willink?

  "The selfish man cuts away the sand from under his own feet."

• 1:09:55Jocko Willink?

  Again, that's the important one to remember because when we're being selfish, we think we're doing things ourselves, but we're actually removing the sand from our own feet. You know, when I take a little from you and I take a little bit from her and I take a little bit from him, I feel like I'm taking it from you, but ultimately it's going to be my downfall.

• 1:10:13Jocko Willink?

  The truth is always the strongest argument. Mm hmm. Doesn't that work? Well, the truth just stands on its own. The triumphing of the wicked is short. So when you gotta pay attention to, and this is another thing when you were, you can, I talked about this was with Jordan Peterson yesterday. And

• 1:10:38Jocko Willink?

  I was, I was saying that, listen, the tyrannical people can get promoted. You know, you can rise up through your company when you're backstabbing people. It, it can happen. But to the point here, it's, it's short. Like it will run out. And one of the things he pointed out was these big giant companies. They, they have a life cycle and it's like 30 years, like a big giant corporation. The life cycle average of a big giant corporation is 30 years because what happens? They start

• 1:11:13Jocko Willink?

  focusing just on profit a hundred percent and screwing over people and not taking care of their workers and not taking care of the environment. They start making mistakes. And when you do that, look, you, you, you win. You win, you win, you win for 10 years, 15 years, but eventually people go, oh, I see what you're doing.

• 1:11:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:30Jocko Willink?

  So the, the, the triumphing is the way of the wicked. It happens. You know, look, in the military, it definitely happens. And one of the reasons it happens in the military is because people have their job in a leadership position for two years. And then you can hang on for those two years and then you boom, you're off. You get the good evaluation because the guys were working hard despite your bad leadership. They were still getting the job done. And so you still look good and towards the end, they were ready to mutiny you, but they knew that all they had to do is hold on for three more months. And you'll be gone and we'll be on to the next guy. So they don't care. They let you go. It's easier for them just to go, all right, we're going to wait till Echo is leaves this command and, and we'll be fine. And so you go, you get a good evaluation, you get promoted. So it happens. But it, but when you'll, you'll continue and eventually it's going to catch you.

• 1:12:16Speaker 01

  That, that company corporations thing is a good example. Um, so think of it. What? I will think of it from time to time as like, let's say I'm a company I offer.

• 1:12:30Speaker 01

  I don't know, law services, right? And then I'm like, oh, wait, freaking. I can start just increasing the price, increasing the price, right? It's like where I got people kinda at their weakest point or whatever. Law services, that's not a good example, but you know, so where I'm the only act in town. So I can just take advantage, right? And start freaking gouging people, price, you know, doing all this stuff or whatever. Not customer service sucks or whatever. It doesn't matter because I'm the only guy in town and people are just gonna suck it up.

• 1:12:58Speaker 01

  I don't know, 10, 20, 30 years, whatever. But in the meantime, everyone's looking, just praying, just hunger for this like a better solution. And actually, and I don't even care how much better, just better. Cause this is just like, this is, we're hurting here, right? And it's the only choice we got. So what that does is it opens up just massive, massive opportunity for these little ones or another big one or whatever. All they gotta do is improve it just by this much. Cause this guy is so, or this is so selfish. It's so bad, it's so wicked, as it were. And then, so yeah, so you get one, like, remember Geico? Remember that? Remember when they first came out?

• 1:13:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:34Speaker 01

  So they were like, oh yeah, this is like, it's cheaper. And what was the, it was like a slogan, 15 minutes or less or something like this. Whereas basically, they just took like one or two of the main problems that people have with, I think it was car insurance. And they were like, hey, it's cheaper, faster, what up? And we're like, forget Geico, Geico all day.

• 1:13:54Speaker 01

  Slowly, in my experience, because I use them slowly, they started increasing their price of comparable to other insurance or whatever, or maybe the other insurance came down. But either way, but I'm just saying, people are like yearning for this new solution. So it brings so much opportunity for competitors to come and just be successful. And then now you're kinda in the, you know.

• 1:14:12Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 1:14:13Speaker 01

  Failure.

• 1:14:14Jocko Willink?

  So do the right thing for the right reasons.

• 1:14:18Jocko Willink?

  The villains obey their passions as slaves do their masters. So, yeah, can't just follow your passions. The wicked in his pride doth persecute the poor.

• 1:14:35Jocko Willink?

  The wolf changes his hair, but not his nature. A lot of that.

• 1:14:41Jocko Willink?

  There's definitely they, there's definitely a lot that you, the, the, the nature of a person doesn't change. There's, that's very heavy in this. There shall be no reward for the evil man.

• 1:14:56Jocko Willink?

  That which is crooked cannot be made straight.

• 1:15:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, we answered a question on the underground that, and I think the way we answered it disagrees with that. That people can redeem themselves and they can, and I know people that have redeemed themselves and they've gotten on the correct path, the righteous path in life.

• 1:15:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:18Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 1:15:18Speaker 01

  And I, and of course, like, I think, I think this kind of goes without saying, but this is like a general, it feels like a general, this is a general thing, you know, generally speaking. But on an individual level, I think you're right. That a person can literally be a bad person and then change and not, and literally be a good person. Like that can actually happen. But I think that there's kind of a, it's kind of a good point to recognize, like, when you do hear about this, right? Where this guy's a bad person, went to prison, blah, blah, blah. And then now he's like a good person and does this good stuff. It stands out so much. It makes such an impact on us where I'm like, oh my God, I'm so like impressed and rightly so. But that just kind of is a testament to how rare it is, you know?

• 1:16:03Speaker 01

  Cause if that was happening like half the time, people would be like, cool. You're like half of people in the world, you know, kind of a thing.

• 1:16:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:09Speaker 01

  Oh, it's rare for sure.

• 1:16:11Jocko Willink?

  There's no contending against destiny. It's coming.

• 1:16:18Jocko Willink?

  To the wicked misfortune, to the wicked misfortune comes triple.

• 1:16:26Jocko Willink?

  Treason doth never prosper.

• 1:16:30Jocko Willink?

  Tricky comes back to its master.

• 1:16:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:37Jocko Willink?

  Uh, tyranny is far the worst of treasons.

• 1:16:44Jocko Willink?

  Unhang one that is hanged and he will hang thee.

• 1:16:49Jocko Willink?

  Kind of already got that one.

• 1:16:52Jocko Willink?

  Unlimited power corrupts the possessor. We've heard that type of thing before. It is certainly an aspect that everyone needs to watch out for.

• 1:17:02Jocko Willink?

  Ulcers cannot be cured that are concealed.

• 1:17:07Jocko Willink?

  Got to bring that problem to light. You needn't hide that thing. It's not going to get fixed. Take ownership of it. Let's bring it out there in the light so it can get cured.

• 1:17:20Jocko Willink?

  Vengeance. Vengeance is without foresight.

• 1:17:26Jocko Willink?

  Vices are seldom single.

• 1:17:31Jocko Willink?

  This is, I think it was Chad Robashow that we had on when he was talking about if they were looking for human traffickers and you just like start finding a drug dealer and you could just start pulling that thread and eventually you'll get to the, to the damn, uh, human trafficker. So it's probably pretty accurate. Vices are learned without a teacher. It's interesting. Eh, that's interesting, but it really does accelerate vice when people are around to introduce it. You know, and it's, you know, I see so much these days. You can see how malleable people's minds are. People, and I'm talking about the human race, like people.

• 1:18:14Jocko Willink?

  Minds are so malleable. You can see it happen online, right? You see these, uh, people getting

• 1:18:21Jocko Willink?

  turned into extremist ways. Um, they're getting radicalized from watching videos on it, on their phone. Right? I mean, this is a real thing. And it, and if you think about it, if you can change your perception to the point where you go and do something violent, that is going to ruin your life, ruin someone else's life and your own life. And you got that way from watching videos on your, on your iPhone.

• 1:18:58Jocko Willink?

  Shows you how malleable people's brains are. And, and so that's why I think even though it says vices are learned without a teacher, like when you have someone to teach you those vices, it's going to be much, uh, rap, much more rapid fall down that path of destruction.

• 1:19:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I think that's for, um,

• 1:19:19Speaker 01

  or it feels like what this document meant is you don't need a teacher to fall into vices kind of a thing, you know?

• 1:19:28Jocko Willink?

  Totally agree.

• 1:19:28Speaker 01

  Where as the opposite, if, if you want, you know, if you want to learn something very constructive and beneficial long-term, it's kind of like, well, you kind of need a teacher, you know, you can't just fumble about and wind up in, you know, successful, skilled.

• 1:19:41Jocko Willink?

  That's a very good point because, uh, human beings will go with the path of least resistance often, and the path of least resistance often is not the right path to take.

• 1:19:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's like that human nature, like, uh, freaking short, short, the shortest of terms, um, as far as payoffs go.

• 1:20:00Jocko Willink?

  Vice often borrows the color of a virtuous deed.

• 1:20:06Jocko Willink?

  Hmm.

• 1:20:09Jocko Willink?

  Violent delights have violent ends. Yeah. Live by the sword, die by the sword. Right there.

• 1:20:18Jocko Willink?

  Vipers breed vipers.

• 1:20:25Jocko Willink?

  It's weird how that can go. You know, you can have the, the person who's, you know, dad was an alcoholic, he becomes an alcoholic, or dad was an alcoholic, doesn't drink. You know, there is, there, there, there are, vipers don't necessarily breed vipers. They might often breed vipers.

• 1:20:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:40Jocko Willink?

  But it's not necessarily breed vipers.

• 1:20:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:44Jocko Willink?

  Wealth gotten by vanity shall be diminished.

• 1:20:51Jocko Willink?

  What is born of the serpent never loses its poison?

• 1:20:58Jocko Willink?

  What is more cruel than a tyrant's ear?

• 1:21:03Jocko Willink?

  What I like about that one is this is like,

• 1:21:07Jocko Willink?

  when some rat, you know, if you're, if someone's telling a tyrant something, like they're, they, you can get a tyrant so spun up. You know what I mean? Like some tyrannical leader said, hey, you know, Echo Charles was really questioning your commands earlier. Bro, nothing more violent than a tyrant's ear.

• 1:21:30Jocko Willink?

  Echo's going down.

• 1:21:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, that makes sense.

• 1:21:34Jocko Willink?

  When the root is worthless, so is the tree.

• 1:21:38Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:21:40Jocko Willink?

  When a man is angry, his reason rides out.

• 1:21:45Jocko Willink?

  Anger does not help you make good decisions. Where there is whispering, there is lying. It's a good one.

• 1:21:54Jocko Willink?

  Isn't it weird? Do you ever see what like, your kids are whispering at the dinner table or whatever?

• 1:22:00Speaker 01

  Uh, well,

• 1:22:01Jocko Willink?

  You know what I mean?

• 1:22:02Speaker 01

  I could imagine, yeah.

• 1:22:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's like, oh, you can imagine, because that doesn't happen.

• 1:22:05Speaker 01

  No, no whispering allowed.

• 1:22:07Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:22:07Speaker 01

  Ever.

• 1:22:08Jocko Willink?

  If there's whispering, there's lying.

• 1:22:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, well.

• 1:22:13Speaker 01

  Hey, look, a lot of these, there's many, many, many exceptions to a lot of this, but you know, for you, if you, Jocko, sat here in broad daylight, told me, hey, these are just rules of thumb. I'd be, I'd, I'd agree.

• 1:22:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:28Speaker 01

  But yeah, there's exceptions to that. I mean, quite frankly, I think some people, and in my experience, a lot of people, depends on what you mean by a lot, but people sometimes are not ready for the truth, you know? Yet the truth has to kind of be out to some degree for, you know, to make things happen a lot of time. And probably some people are just not ready for the truth, you know? So, hey, man, sometimes whispering is a form of protection, empathy, you know, kind of that. That can be a part of the gig. Let's face it, that's why privacy is important. Like if me and you are like,

• 1:23:06Speaker 01

  If we're going through like classified stuff, okay, like for in real life classified stuff. Why is it classified? Why shouldn't everyone know if everything's on up and up, right? It's like, bro, not everyone's ready for like the actual truth, you know?

• 1:23:20Jocko Willink?

  Well.

• 1:23:21Speaker 01

  Sometimes.

• 1:23:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no, well, there's a lot of stuff right now that's, uh, that's a big consideration, right? And this is kind of a counterpoint, bro, like, uh, whether it's the Epstein files, right? The law, the people that paid Epstein or that Epstein was supplying underage girls to like, why is that not being made public? Now, now you could say we, we can't handle the truth or that's why there's whispering, but it's like.

• 1:23:53Speaker 01

  This might be a lying scenario.

• 1:23:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, and I think more important, it's like the truth has to come out. Yeah, there's gotta be, what the hell's going on?

• 1:24:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:03Jocko Willink?

  Just what the hell's going on?

• 1:24:05Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:24:05Jocko Willink?

  Why, why would you not release this information?

• 1:24:09Speaker 01

  So keeping my, I agree.

• 1:24:10Jocko Willink?

  I'm way more inquisitive about why they're not releasing the information as to who's the people are. So.

• 1:24:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm with you and I'm with you in as far as this concept goes. I think, oh yeah, there's lying going on when there's whispers. I'm not denying that. Hell yeah, all day. But a lot of time there's another explanation as well. So I'm saying a lot of time, are you gonna, all the things you talk about with your wife? Especially when you're younger. Are the kids ready to hear all that?

• 1:24:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no.

• 1:24:44Speaker 01

  Probably not. And I'm not saying all people are kids, but in a way, conceptually they are. You know, like if, you know, if you don't know how a certain thing works and you hear a certain element of that thing, some people might be put off by it. You know what I'm saying? It's kind of like, uh, it's like a version of concealment. Right? Like concealment, like the, uh, so like, okay, you went to, you went to war, Jocko, military man.

• 1:25:13Speaker 01

  You've probably done things and the good guys that everyone would agree as good have done things that the public is not ready to see or hear about in detail.

• 1:25:25Jocko Willink?

  Well, I don't really agree with that.

• 1:25:27Speaker 01

  Okay, so let's say.

• 1:25:28Jocko Willink?

  I think if, yeah, I think, I think if there's a whispering, then it's like, wait, what, what the hell is going on?

• 1:25:34Speaker 01

  Okay, I guess it, I guess it depends on what you mean by whispering.

• 1:25:37Jocko Willink?

  Case in point, it's like in, in certain, like in Vietnam, there's things are going on. It's like, wait a second, what, what, wait, what's happening? Why is that happening?

• 1:25:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's, that's.

• 1:25:46Jocko Willink?

  Cause there's people whispering about it. Wait, they're, we're not, we don't know the truth.

• 1:25:51Speaker 01

  Let's go less heavy then.

• 1:25:52Jocko Willink?

  So there's a certain, cause there's, there's also a difference between like operational security about an ongoing operation, of course, like, oh, we don't wanna, we don't wanna give away our, our element of surprise on the enemy.

• 1:26:06Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:26:07Jocko Willink?

  So there's an understanding why some, there's actual classified information, but it should be classified because it, we don't, because it doesn't wanna compromise the operations that are taking place. It shouldn't be classified because we're ashamed of what we did.

• 1:26:21Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:26:22Jocko Willink?

  That's a totally different thing.

• 1:26:23Speaker 01

  I'm with you and that, and apologies, cause that's not what I meant. So it depends on what you mean by whispering. So like whispering is like, what, like a metaphor, like, oh, let's keep this like,

• 1:26:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:33Speaker 01

  You know what?

• 1:26:33Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:26:33Speaker 01

  Then yeah, I dig it.

• 1:26:34Jocko Willink?

  For like, hey dude, we don't want to bring this up right now.

• 1:26:36Speaker 01

  So I was thinking like, kinda almost more on the literal side where let's say me and you're at a party. There's kids, there's women and children and all this stuff or whatever. And I gotta go use the bathroom, like kinda bad. I eat some bad sausage or something like this and I gotta use the bathroom bad. I got some problems. But we're all at a, at a dinner table. It's kinda nice or whatever. So.

• 1:26:58Jocko Willink?

  So you whisper to your wife, I gotta go to the bathroom.

• 1:27:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, or to my friend and be like,

• 1:27:03Jocko Willink?

  Cover for me.

• 1:27:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, kind of a thing.

• 1:27:05Jocko Willink?

  Out here.

• 1:27:06Speaker 01

  Exactly right.

• 1:27:07Jocko Willink?

  Tell a loud story. Cause I'm gonna be in there blowing up the bathroom.

• 1:27:11Speaker 01

  And I might be a while. You see what I'm saying? So I'm gonna whisper this to, everyone don't gotta know that, you know? So I'm gonna whisper that to somebody I trust or you know?

• 1:27:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I think the, the metaphorical, it works better in this case than the reality. So, okay, point taken. Who undertakes too much succeeds in little?

• 1:27:30Speaker 01

  I understand.

• 1:27:30Jocko Willink?

  It's a little prioritize and execute activity right there, you know, like trying to do too much. Not gonna get much done. And then got two more to wrap this thing up for today. Who faints not achieves.

• 1:27:43Speaker 01

  Who faints not achieves. Okay.

• 1:27:47Jocko Willink?

  You just said it every time. Keep going, man. Don't, don't, don't back off. Keep going. And then the last one is you dancing in the net and think nobody sees you.

• 1:28:00Speaker 01

  Uh, if you don't mind, let's go back to who faints not. So my dad used to have this saying.

• 1:28:05Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm. BC.

• 1:28:06Speaker 01

  BC all day, wise man. To the degree. He said, don't get caught half stepping. That's what he said. So it's kind of like, hey, bro, if we're doing this, we're doing this, you know?

• 1:28:18Jocko Willink?

  That's the, the McConaughey, the Matthew McConaughey thing that his dad told him. You've heard the story. Matthew McConaughey was in law school and he wanted to go film school. And he called his dad and he was bracing because you know, telling your dad when you're in law school to be a lawyer, a respectable job, we're gonna be able to make money and have a good career or respectable career. And you're like, I'm gonna bounce out of that and we'll go to film school. Right? Where there's very low probability of success. It's weird. There's no guarantee. And so Matthew McConaughey calls his dad and he's like, hey dad, this is what I want to do. And his dad said, well, son, don't half ass it.

• 1:29:03Speaker 01

  Half ass it, yeah.

• 1:29:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So, so your dad, that's a very close.

• 1:29:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:08Jocko Willink?

  Proximity statement.

• 1:29:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:10Jocko Willink?

  No half stepping.

• 1:29:13Jocko Willink?

  And also for while we're on the, on the path there, Walter White

• 1:29:19Jocko Willink?

  from Breaking Bad, no half measures. Yeah. So we're, this halfway stuff isn't going to get us there. So we ain't half stepping. We ain't half measures and we ain't gonna half ass anything. We're going.

• 1:29:30Speaker 01

  Understand.

• 1:29:32Jocko Willink?

  Uh, this last one, once again, you dancing in the net and thinking nobody sees you.

• 1:29:38Speaker 01

  Why do you say the net?

• 1:29:40Jocko Willink?

  Because if you're a fish and you're in the net, you think you're not gonna get caught. Right? This is, I try to tell people, this, this to me is about lack of self-awareness, right? And I, there's nothing worse than people that, that are doing nefarious things. Small, big, large, whatever, and they think nobody sees them.

• 1:30:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:00Jocko Willink?

  It's like, people see. You're sitting there dancing around in the net, you think no one sees you, they're gonna catch you, they see you.

• 1:30:08Jocko Willink?

  It's a bizarre form of, of ignorance, that lack of self-awareness. And it's a very scary thing. It's a very scary thing to have, to not have the self-awareness to recognize that when you're making this little move, some thing that you're doing, you think nobody sees you. We see you, we all see you. Especially from a leadership position, man. You know, you're getting like, special food, or, you know, you're getting the hot coffee when everyone else is drinking cold coffee. Like, everybody sees that.

• 1:30:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:41Jocko Willink?

  Everybody sees it. Everybody sees what you're doing, so. People can see more than you think. That's what's happening.

• 1:30:49Speaker 01

  So.

• 1:30:52Speaker 01

  Even like, things that are seem, okay, so, I worked with this, I worked with this guy, long time ago.

• 1:30:59Jocko Willink?

  Dude, you chatty today.

• 1:31:00Speaker 01

  Little bit, you know, I've been out, you know, actually not, no. Hey, bro, we, you know, this is, this is, coincidentally, I was thinking about literally like a third of these things within the last like three days, dawned upon me, you know, the depth of these.

• 1:31:14Jocko Willink?

  Cause you texted me, cause you were on vacation, or you didn't text me, but you told me that when you listened to this one with me and Carrie, you were kinda hyped.

• 1:31:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, kinda sad.

• 1:31:22Jocko Willink?

  I saved the second one.

• 1:31:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, fully. Only because.

• 1:31:26Jocko Willink?

  Did you think Carrie didn't bring the game?

• 1:31:27Speaker 01

  No, no, Carrie brought it, and as he always does, hundred percent. But, I'm listening, you know, when you're listening to it, especially if you're watching it, you feel like you're kinda in the room too, you know, but I can't say anything, you see what I'm saying, I was like, alright.

• 1:31:39Jocko Willink?

  You made up for it today, boy.

• 1:31:41Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 1:31:43Speaker 01

  But, but, there's a lot of depth to a lot of these, you know, there's like, oh my god. Generally speaking, versus, you know, you know, individual, on an individual level, it's kinda like, you know, it gets a little bit more flexible. Um, you know.

• 1:31:59Speaker 01

  In what regard, like in what regards are there exceptions? Or under what circumstance, sorry, are there exceptions to these, right? In real life?

• 1:32:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:06Speaker 01

  And then there's big and small, right? And all this stuff. So, uh, so dancing in the net. Everyone sees like even small, okay, so you can have like two intentions at the same time.

• 1:32:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:21Speaker 01

  One good and one like super selfish, right? And people see both. Unfortunately, under those circumstances, most of the time, they're gonna see the bad one and it kinda just trumps the good one, you know? So it's like, uh, let's say you're donating money, right? To, you know, this freaking awesome cause. And then you get up on stage and he's like, you know, I'm just donating all this, all of my hard earned money to this cause, you know? It kinda, you can, people can kinda, I mean, under certain circumstances, they can see, oh, I see what you're doing, you're making more about you. You know, they can see what you're doing. Even though you did this good thing, literally like donated, like it was gonna help, it's gonna save life, the whole deal.

• 1:32:59Jocko Willink?

  There's no better way to ruin the credit you deserve by asking for the credit you deserve.

• 1:33:03Speaker 01

  Right. Exactly, you're right. Bro, dancing in that net, bro. And once, and so I had a guy do that to me, I'm not even gonna tell the story, it doesn't even matter. But, um, a guy did that to me, a group of us, where he was like a leader and, and he was like, you know what? And basically, we all got a bunch of money as like a ti- tips, right? And he was like, you know what? I'm gonna, um, you know, I'm gonna give my tips to you guys, right? He said that. And you'd think like, fuck, that's actually really nice. You know, after a freaking sick weekend and, you know, the tips come in, you know, when you're in a job with tips. And he's like, you know, and then he's like standing there, the way he said it in his tone, and he's looking at us all in the eyes, kinda like expecting almost like this big like, I don't know, round of applause, like a, he was expecting like a big reaction. And it was really like.

• 1:33:49Speaker 01

  And we're just watching him dance in the net, just, just elaborate dance in the net. Meanwhile, we're getting tips, bruh. That was not the front running sentiment right there. It was like, bruh, this guy was just dancing. So I was like, oh, man, that's true. Bruh, and he probably was like, fuck, I am sick. Everyone loves me now, but I think everyone was like, bruh, this guy's kinda douchey.

• 1:34:12Jocko Willink?

  And you know what? Uh, there's another proverb that you just kind of danced around a little bit, which is never say never, never say always, right?

• 1:34:22Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 1:34:22Jocko Willink?

  Right? Which is, which is something that I agree with.

• 1:34:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:27Jocko Willink?

  Almost always, you know what I mean? I don't always agree with it, but, cause there are some always times and there are some never times. But never say never and, and never say always is usually pretty accurate because there's always some case that doesn't quite fit. And so, yeah, it's another good proverb, even though you, there are times when you should say. So never say never, including never saying never.

• 1:34:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:51Jocko Willink?

  And never say always, including never saying always.

• 1:34:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:54Jocko Willink?

  There's sometimes that there's some things that are always and some things that are never. So.

• 1:34:59Speaker 01

  So we're being like Jocko, we're being firm, but flexible.

• 1:35:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, so that's what we're doing.

• 1:35:04Speaker 01

  Under most situations.

• 1:35:05Jocko Willink?

  Many situations, the vast majority of situations. Uh, all right. So there you have it. And again, you know, these things feel real obvious sometimes, uh, but you, you're making decisions all day long. It's really good occasionally to think about how well you can be guided through some of these. Keep in front of mind, keep you on the path. And speaking of the path, we talked a little bit about working out today. Did you work out yet today?

• 1:35:30Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:35:31Jocko Willink?

  Do you, you weren't a workout early in the morning thing for a little while, weren't you?

• 1:35:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, I went in, I've, I've dabbled in that for sure, but um.

• 1:35:41Jocko Willink?

  Do you, do you want to work out this afternoon? Like you're gonna work out this afternoon? It's on the books. Do you want to? Are you looking forward to it right now?

• 1:35:50Speaker 01

  Uh, at this exact moment, no, cause I kind of like, you know, chopping it up right now, but um, yeah, when I go home, I'm like, oh, hell yeah. You know, I'm not particularly tired or nothing like that.

• 1:36:01Speaker 01

  But there's a good chance when we get home, maybe I'll sit down for a second. I'll be like, okay, I gotta get, I gotta force this work out. Yeah, for sure. Part of the good.

• 1:36:09Jocko Willink?

  Well, one thing that can help you if you're going to be working out is Jocko Fuel. Getting the proper fuel.

• 1:36:15Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:36:16Jocko Willink?

  Do you, is today a day where you may dabble in pre-workout?

• 1:36:20Speaker 01

  Probably not, no.

• 1:36:21Jocko Willink?

  No, okay. And that's just, you got good sleep last night. You're feeling good.

• 1:36:25Speaker 01

  Feeling solid, yeah.

• 1:36:27Jocko Willink?

  Uh, I've been, if I'm getting sleep deprivation, I've been jacking my creatine a little bit. Maybe taking extra. Are you in the game?

• 1:36:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, I started that too.

• 1:36:36Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so lots of creatine, occasional pre-workout, go. Uh, by the way, you and I, so I was, I was telling the Jocko Fuel team this morning, I was a hundred percent getting sick yesterday.

• 1:36:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:49Jocko Willink?

  Like, you, a hundred percent, I was getting sick, I felt it. So I just went crazy with Cold War. I took Cold War all day yesterday. And by the end of the day, I was like, oh, wait a second. I'm, instead of feeling worse, which I was in the beginning of the downward spiral of sickness.

• 1:37:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:07Jocko Willink?

  Cold, body shakes, whatever, the whole thing. I pounded a bunch of Cold War. And by the end of the night, I was like, oh, I think we, I think we put that thing in check. And then this morning, boom, it's in check, a hundred percent. I already lifted this morning, good lift.

• 1:37:22Speaker 01

  That's when you know.

• 1:37:23Jocko Willink?

  And now I'm just, you know, you're feeling the same thing, but I'm taking Cold War all day today. So it's a good thing to have on the ready.

• 1:37:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:31Jocko Willink?

  Boom, you get, get hit with a little something, get the Cold War going, bunch of vitamin C in it, like it. It's got garlic in it too. And, uh, it's just freaking good. I don't know. It's got the, it's got the stuff that pushes back those diseases. So check it out, Cold War protein. We got new flavors coming out. We got ready to drink protein. We got energy drink, we got hydrate. Hydrate's awesome. I'm drinking one right now. Check it out jockofuel.com. Also, you can get the stuff at Walmart. You can get it at Wawa, Vitamin Shoppe, GNC, Military Commissaries. We got Afees, Hanaford, Dash Stores, Wakefern, ShopRite. Down in HEB, down in Texas, they're

• 1:38:13Jocko Willink?

  going to be putting pallets on the floor at some point in the near future. Just racks of Jocko Fuel. Myers up in the Midwest, Wegmans, Harris Teeter, Publix down there in the southeast area of operations. Available. Going strong. I was talking to my buddy Steve down there the other day. He's like, dude, I'm running rampage inside the Publix. So appreciate that. And then also, we got Lifetime Fitness, Shields. We got small gyms everywhere. We got a crew out there. If you got a small gym or you go to a small gym, contact [email protected] and we will get Jocko Fuel into your small gyms. Maybe you got a big gym. If you've got a big gym, even better.

• 1:38:54Jocko Willink?

  But either way, your, your people in the gym need Jocko Fuel. So get it. Also, Origin USA, originusa.com. We're making stuff here in America. We're making jeans. We're making boots. We're making hoodies. We're making t-shirts. I just donated a pair of boots. Did you, I didn't, I felt a little bad because I presented them to Kerry.

• 1:39:15Speaker 01

  I felt that too, by the way.

• 1:39:17Jocko Willink?

  Are you hurt?

• 1:39:19Speaker 01

  Well, sad.

• 1:39:20Jocko Willink?

  So I thought Kerry, you know, Kerry's, you know, he's a little younger than us. He's got a little bit more necessity for looking sharp, right? Let's face it. You and me, we're, you know, we're past that phase. You know what I'm saying?

• 1:39:32Speaker 01

  We're in other phases, for sure.

• 1:39:33Jocko Willink?

  Look, we're look, we're trying to be strong, right? We're not slacking on our lifting or our running or our sprinting or our workout. We're slacking there. But maybe we're not dressing up as much as Kerry has to dress up, right? He's a saint. He's, he's in a relationship, but you know, you know what I'm saying? He's looking good. So he's in the game.

• 1:39:52Speaker 01

  Hundred percent, you're correct.

• 1:39:53Jocko Willink?

  So I immediately gave a pair of Chelsea boots that had been sent to me. I was like, look, I can wear these, sure. But Kerry could like, use them. You know what I mean?

• 1:40:04Speaker 01

  Utilize.

• 1:40:06Jocko Willink?

  So I gave him, he was pumped. He put them on. He left.

• 1:40:09Speaker 01

  Left them on. That was what he was wearing today. Yeah.

• 1:40:11Jocko Willink?

  So we got boots. We got just everything that you need. And it's all 100% made in America from American made materials. So no one's doing that. No one's doing that. No one's committed to doing that like we are. So.

• 1:40:25Speaker 01

  Question about the boots.

• 1:40:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:26Speaker 01

  So those are, those aren't like some new boots that are not available yet.

• 1:40:30Jocko Willink?

  No, the Chelsea's are available.

• 1:40:32Speaker 01

  They're available, right?

• 1:40:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Like the Goodyear welt.

• 1:40:35Speaker 01

  Is there, is there different colors?

• 1:40:37Jocko Willink?

  I think so. And if there's not, I think I know someone that might be able to help you out there.

• 1:40:43Speaker 01

  See what up with that.

• 1:40:44Jocko Willink?

  Cause I do have a pair of the blacked out Mokto that I, they're, look.

• 1:40:50Jocko Willink?

  I got them custom and they're legit.

• 1:40:54Jocko Willink?

  And you know what? If people, there's a high demand for them, um, we can put them into production. You know what I mean?

• 1:40:58Speaker 01

  Oh, like different colors?

• 1:40:59Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. If a bunch of people, no, specific, we're not gonna, you can't run 50 different custom pairs, you know? You gotta make them, all right, here's an option.

• 1:41:08Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:41:08Jocko Willink?

  Blacked out Jocko style boots might be a thing.

• 1:41:13Speaker 01

  Okay. So when you say custom, wait, what does that mean?

• 1:41:16Jocko Willink?

  I mean, they literally made them for me.

• 1:41:18Speaker 01

  Right, right, right. Okay. So they didn't like freaking put your shoe in a mold.

• 1:41:21Jocko Willink?

  No, no, no, no, no.

• 1:41:22Speaker 01

  Whatever. Okay.

• 1:41:22Jocko Willink?

  This size, these co- all black.

• 1:41:25Speaker 01

  Right, right. Yeah. It's not part of the standard offering scenario or whatever, but back to the Chelsea ones, not the Mokto. Great. Only because those Chelsea was a little bit like more of a light, lighter weight, kind of a look, right?

• 1:41:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, they're definitely a little bit sleeker.

• 1:41:40Speaker 01

  Sleeker. Exactly right. Like, um.

• 1:41:42Jocko Willink?

  I heard Pete describing it some like, uh, uh, business casual. He said it's leaning a little bit toward, more towards business.

• 1:41:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, I would even say.

• 1:41:51Jocko Willink?

  It's not for business.

• 1:41:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:41:53Jocko Willink?

  Maybe if they were black, but then again, I'm not the right person to ask, you know what I mean?

• 1:41:57Speaker 01

  I think that those are like, they're leaning towards straight up fashion. Like those look like, if someone's come walking in.

• 1:42:07Jocko Willink?

  With those boots, you're saying they're leaning towards like sharp dress.

• 1:42:10Speaker 01

  Sharp dress. Like, and I'm saying in a good way, you, you know, me, look, are you in touch with that whole side of things? You know, as much as maybe you could be? No, probably not. But.

• 1:42:20Jocko Willink?

  How about at all?

• 1:42:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, or at all, you know? But I recognized that, yes, I'm looking at these boots. If those were paired with the appropriate attire, someone who cares about aesthetic, brother, they're sliding right in. And they looked good. And, uh, you know, and I said this before, hey, look, I'm, I'm looking at Carrie, you know, with a staunch. Unblemished record of heterosexuality and recognize that he looked amazing in them. See what I'm saying?

• 1:42:48Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 1:42:48Speaker 01

  So I'm saying that it was an attractive pair of footwear.

• 1:42:51Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:42:53Speaker 01

  So I might want to get some of those. Those are more my style, I think. More so than, because I don't really wear that many boots.

• 1:42:58Jocko Willink?

  Maybe you might have just caught a blemish on your.

• 1:43:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, my record there.

• 1:43:03Jocko Willink?

  Just got blemished.

• 1:43:04Speaker 01

  Well, thanks to the boots. See what I'm saying?

• 1:43:06Jocko Willink?

  Irresistible, irresistible.

• 1:43:10Jocko Willink?

  Even Echo Charles, he fell off the path for a minute.

• 1:43:12Speaker 01

  Hey, we're out here appreciating stuff.

• 1:43:14Jocko Willink?

  Right on. Well, if you need any of this stuff, 100% made in America. Go to originusa.com and get some. That's what we're doing.

• 1:43:21Speaker 01

  That's true. Also, Jocko Store, of course, we're still going. Jocko Store. This One Equals Freedom, we're representing on this path. Hey, choose your hard. Of course, of course. But when you choose the correct hard. You can not only represent, you can make it just slightly more, uh, I don't want to say easy. We'll say pleasurable.

• 1:43:42Jocko Willink?

  Take, take a little bit of pleasure in the paint.

• 1:43:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Right. And represent. So anyway, This One Equals Freedom, we got your shirts and hoodies and, uh, we got tank tops on there. We were out of tank tops for a while. Don't ask why, but summer is coming up. So I'm saying, you know, we're going to be wearing.

• 1:43:56Jocko Willink?

  Guns out.

• 1:43:56Speaker 01

  Guns.

• 1:43:57Jocko Willink?

  Guns out.

• 1:43:58Speaker 01

  Boy, look at you over there.

• 1:44:00Jocko Willink?

  You understand.

• 1:44:01Speaker 01

  100%. So be on the lookout for that, you know, keep in mind too, we have the socks going. Hats on there. A lot of stuff on there. So check it out.

• 1:44:07Jocko Willink?

  Get me some of those Shirt Locker shirts that I wanted.

• 1:44:09Speaker 01

  Not yet, but you gotta wait like five more days.

• 1:44:11Jocko Willink?

  Okay, cool, cool.

• 1:44:12Speaker 01

  And make sure. Oh yeah. So Shirt Locker, if you don't know what that is, it's a subscription scenario, new shirt. Different designs, all representing the past just in different ways. More creative, fun. You know, people are fond of that. So anyway, yeah, subscription, subscription scenario, different, uh, design every month. It's on jacostore.com. Just click on the top Shirt Locker. You can kind of check out what the vibe is. And yeah, if you like that, sign up, bro. It's a good one. Jacostore.com.

• 1:44:37Jocko Willink?

  There you go. Also, check out coloradocraftbeef.com and primalbeef.com. You need steak in your life. So that's where you want to get it. Get it from two awesome American company, awesome American people, families at those companies. And of course, awesome steak, awesome jerky, awesome beef sticks, awesome franks, awesome patties, beef patties. Just, it's just awesome.

• 1:45:02Speaker 01

  I got a recipe for you.

• 1:45:03Jocko Willink?

  Go.

• 1:45:04Speaker 01

  Fuck, I might have told you this. No, I'm saying it again. Doesn't matter. Okay. I made this last night, so it's fresh on my mind and the night before. Okay, we've got ground beef, one pound, depending how big you are. If you're concerned with like the macros or whatever, you want to line them up. I put ground beef, one pound, boom, I put like a certain seasoning in it. It's called the dakine seasoning.

• 1:45:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, but you can put whatever, you know, you can put, do the rib.

• 1:45:29Jocko Willink?

  You shouldn't say whatever, because that's kind of critical.

• 1:45:32Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:45:33Jocko Willink?

  You know, to just be like, whatever.

• 1:45:34Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, whatever, like whatever seasoning that you like. I particularly like this one, so you can do the rib rub, because I'll do that, too. So anyway, you put your seasoning in there, not too much, but just some. Boom, you saute it up, right? You cook it on a pan or whatever. Boom, when it's done, you put, I put three eggs, put one egg, zero eggs, whatever you want. But I put like, right when it's done cooking, I crack three eggs on it, right?

• 1:45:56Jocko Willink?

  Then mix it in or no?

• 1:45:58Speaker 01

  I don't mix it in. Before, you can do like an omelet scenario, which I, I used to do a lot, but I just do three eggs. Plus all the, all the ground beef, okay. Then I make rice, I prefer rice. It's gonna sound weird, but bear with me. So you go rice, boom, you put the ground beef on top, boom, with the eggs on top, boom.

• 1:46:16Speaker 01

  Spaghetti sauce. I know, bear with me, spaghetti sauce, not too much. Honey mustard.

• 1:46:24Speaker 01

  Dressing, boom. Little bit of like low fat or non-fat cheese. Depends on your macros. Sprinkle. That sounds crazy, right?

• 1:46:33Jocko Willink?

  No, it all sounded semi-normal until you said you put all that shit on there, then you go low-fat cheese.

• 1:46:39Speaker 01

  Well, here's why, here's why, and this is my particular thing, and other people might be like this as well. When I start putting cheese on stuff, bro, I can go too far.

• 1:46:48Speaker 01

  For real.

• 1:46:49Jocko Willink?

  What cheese, what kind of cheese?

• 1:46:50Speaker 01

  I don't know, regular, when I go too far.

• 1:46:53Jocko Willink?

  Like mozzarella cheese or what?

• 1:46:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, so last night was mozzarella cheese, yeah. But you put whatever cheese you like, bro. But it just adds a little something, don't put too much, because we're gonna be tempted to do that. And then sometimes you can throw off all your macros. You can like almost double your calories if you're concerned about that kind of stuff. So I'm just saying, watch out for the cheese. That's why I do the low-fat. Keep the macros like not quite as high, but you still get the good macros, protein, enough carbohydrates for your thing. Unless you're on keto, that's another thing. But I'm just saying, that recipe, you'll be surprised that the seasoning plus the spaghetti sauce, not too much. Not as much, like, put half as much spaghetti sauce as you would put on spaghetti. Half as much. And then honey mustard. Half as much honey mustard as you put spaghetti sauce. There you go, that's the ratio, bro, try it.

• 1:47:38Speaker 01

  Bruh, you're over here doubting the whole you have a skeptical look in your face. I'm telling you 100% with very few exceptions, it'll be very good that you'll be like this is impressively good.

• 1:47:49Jocko Willink?

  Jack, you're gonna get a lot of hate for that whole thing.

• 1:47:52Speaker 01

  No, I won't. No, I won't actually.

• 1:47:53Jocko Willink?

  A lot of people.

• 1:47:54Speaker 01

  I won't.

• 1:47:56Jocko Willink?

  All right. Well, there you go. You're gonna need ground beef for

• 1:47:59Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:47:59Jocko Willink?

  part of that recipe. So check out Colorado craft beef or primal beef. Also subscribe to the podcast. Also check out Jocko Underground. Also, we got a bunch of YouTube channels, Jocko Podcast, official YouTube channel, Jocko Fuel Podcast channel, Origin USA Podcast channel. We got a bunch of books. By the way, we got a book called The Modern Submission Grappling, written by Miha. Check that one out.

• 1:48:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:48:25Jocko Willink?

  It's good to review that thing. It's good to review that thing. Keep things on your mind. And there's a whole like video online activity you can go and do.

• 1:48:33Speaker 01

  Like a compliment.

• 1:48:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:34Speaker 01

  To the, to the book.

• 1:48:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:35Speaker 01

  Oh, that's legit.

• 1:48:36Jocko Willink?

  QR code.

• 1:48:37Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:48:37Jocko Willink?

  The whole nine yards. So go check that out. Check out Miha's. I gotta get his website from him. If you Google Miha, Modern Submission Grappling, you'll get there.

• 1:48:46Speaker 01

  Have you? That's new to me that you have a video compliment to the book. Is that new? Have you heard of that before? I'm out of that world.

• 1:48:56Jocko Willink?

  I don't know, but Miha did it.

• 1:48:58Speaker 01

  Bruh, that's like something that's like.

• 1:48:59Jocko Willink?

  Cause Miha and Keenan had like a little studio for filming jujitsu moves and stuff.

• 1:49:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:49:07Jocko Willink?

  And they had, and so Miha was so to himself, well, we got the studio. We got people that wanna learn. They bought the book. Let's get him in the game.

• 1:49:17Speaker 01

  So that's like.

• 1:49:18Jocko Willink?

  There you go.

• 1:49:18Speaker 01

  That is smart. I mean, sorry if, if someone else had come up with that as a thing, but that's the first I ever heard of it. But that is something that is massively needed because when you, you know, like anything, if you just read the book, especially something that's so heavily requires like physical practice, bruh, that's like a huge hole in the learning process.

• 1:49:37Jocko Willink?

  Now you're covered.

• 1:49:38Speaker 01

  Not anymore.

• 1:49:38Jocko Willink?

  So check out Miha's gig. Uh, plus I've written a bunch of books, a bunch of books about leadership. I've written a bunch of kids books. So check those out. Also, we have a leadership consultancy called Ashlan Front, where we solve problems through leadership.

• 1:49:54Jocko Willink?

  Many skills it takes to be a good leader. Now, it's look, you born with some of them like you're born with some, you're born with some potential for some of these skills, but you might not necessarily have honed those skills. And some of them you might not even know about their skill. There's imagine like jujitsu, there's a move that you didn't know. Same thing can happen with leadership.

• 1:50:17Jocko Willink?

  Same thing can happen with leadership.

• 1:50:18Speaker 01

  Even moves within the moves, by the way. So that's what I keep picking up. Like when I keep going to these masters that you guys throw. The moves within the moves.

• 1:50:27Jocko Willink?

  Yep, there's a lot to learn. Leadership is a skill. Go to echelonfront.com if you want to bring this skill into your organization, or you want to come to one of our events where we teach these skills. And also you can go to a place called extremeownership.com and you can learn these skills online.

• 1:50:47Jocko Willink?

  You can learn skills, leadership skills online. You can learn jujitsu online. Unless if you can learn jujitsu, which is a physical altercation between two human beings in very close proximity, you can actually learn that from videos and online. And you can do the same thing with leadership. So check out extremeownership.com. Also, if you want to help service members, active and retired, you want to help their families, you want to help Gold Star families, check out Markley's mom, Mama Lee. She's got incredible charity organization. If you want to donate or you want to get involved, go to Americas Mighty Warriors.org. Also, check out Miha, or Mica and Mica Fink. He's got his organization, Heroes and Horses.org up in Montana.

• 1:51:30Jocko Willink?

  And then Jimmy May, he's got his organization, Beyond the Brotherhood.org. I just met with Jimmy the other day, doing great stuff. If you want to connect with us, you can check out jocko.com. Also, social media, I'm at Jocko Willink, Echo's at Echo Charles. Just watch out, the ancient proverb. If you play with the algorithm, the algorithm will play with you.

• 1:51:56Jocko Willink?

  It's a monster, watch out for it. Thanks to the men and women in the service around the globe, right now, standing on the front lines. The front lines of freedom to protect our way of life. Thank you for your service. Thanks to police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, border patrol, secret service, as well as all other first responders. Thank you for your service to protect us here at home. And everyone else out there, I'm going to close with the proverb that we opened with. If you leap into a well, providence is not bound to fetch you out. That's right. You are responsible for your actions and I recommend. I recommend that you don't leap into any wells, or you don't make any bad decisions,

• 1:52:41Jocko Willink?

  or you don't place yourself in any bad positions or scenarios. But if you do. Don't count on anyone or anything earthly or divine to come and pull you out.

• 1:52:57Jocko Willink?

  It's all on you. So take ownership and make things right. And that's all we've got for tonight. And until next time, this is Echo and Jocko. Out.