472: Avoiding the Pressure Won't Get You Anywhere. W/ Matt Hasby

>Join Jocko Underground< https://www.jockounderground.com/subscribe Matt is a retired Navy SEAL, combat leader, and Leadership Instructor at Echelon Front with a distinguished 21-year career. He began at SEAL Team Three and was part of Task Unit Bruiser with Leif Babin and Jocko Willink. Matt's combat and training experiences honed his leadership skills, allowing him to rise through the SEAL ranks and collaborate with various special operations teams. After retiring, he earned an MBA from UCLA's Anderson School of Management and worked as a management consultant, where he applied and validated Echelon Front’s strategies in business. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 472 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening Echo. Good evening. So we'd been in Ramadi for a little over a week, I would say. And we had gone a big chunk of guys from Task Unit Bruiser. We'd gone over to Camp Corregidor, which is on the east side of Ramadi with the first of the 506 Band of Brothers. And we're planning a big, giant operation, a battalion sized, a battalion plus sized operation. And we're going to be there for a few days planning and then we're going to conduct the operation. We're going to go home. But we'd been there for, so we'd been over in Corregidor for maybe like a day or two or something like that. And as soon as we got there, Camp Corregidor was under attack all the time.

• 0:45Jocko Willink?

  Through mortars and indirect fire, but also the surrounding area, there'd be IEDs in place. There'd be rockets launched at the base. And so as soon as we got there, of course, we had a bunch of snipers in Task Unit Bruiser. So they have towers around the perimeter of Camp Corregidor. So we put snipers in the towers and pretty quickly, like a couple, a couple of SEAL snipers, killed some insurgents, putting IEDs in and whatnot. And so that was like the first day we were there, first 24 hours they were there. So now we're there and now I'm over talking to one of the company commanders, the Charlie Company Commander.

• 1:25Jocko Willink?

  This guy Gunfighter Six, the guy's a total pro. Just, he's been in Ramadi. He's been fighting. He's been leading his troops.

• 1:34Jocko Willink?

  They called him Crazy Joe is another nickname he had, but his call sign was Gunfighter Six. I won't say his name right now, but hopefully I'll have him on the podcast at some point. Just a great guy and his, his Charlie Company, they'd done a, they'd done a massive amount of fighting. They'd taken a massive amount of casualties. And, and he was just a outstanding professional soldier and combat leader. And so I'm in with him and we're talking about how this big operation is going to take place. And the types of things he was doing, the why I'm saying he's so professional is. This was before everyone had a helmet cam and before everyone had, you know, a GoPro on their weapon and whatever.

• 2:16Jocko Willink?

  He had rigged video cameras on his Humvees. Or at least his Humvee, and so he would record every time he'd be out in the city, he would record every, everything. And then he'd come back and he'd watch it. So, you know, he knew every wall and every curb and every building. And he just would look at them and was more familiar with the terrain in order to be as familiar with the terrain as possible. And there's a bunch of reasons for that. Are people having IEDs there? Is that a place where they could put weapons cache? Is that somewhere where you could maneuver or couldn't maneuver? So he just was that engaged. And he understood the mission and his troops knew the mission. So that's what we're doing. So I'm sitting here with this guy and we're in like a little Quonset hut where his company planning space was.

• 2:59Jocko Willink?

  And as we're in there, we hear like a pretty good run of machine gunfire. And, you know, I'm trying to act cool because I'm trying to act cool. You know, you don't want to act like a like, whoa, whoa, what the heck was that? You know? So I kind of, you know, give him a nod and he kind of gives me a nod because he's trying to act cool too. You know, we're like two guys in the military trying to act cool. And so then more machine gunfire comes. I'm like, oh, okay, that's a lot. And I still like try and carry on like I'm talking like it's no big deal. And then all of a sudden, they're just, whoa, whoa, two massive explosions, which is RPG hits. And when, as soon as the first one goes, you know, we start running and we go outside.

• 3:43Jocko Willink?

  And when we get outside where this Quonset hut was, it was kind of on the border and it was right next to one of these towers where, you know, where we had perimeter security. And that, you know, these explosions, we come outside and now there's kind of smoke coming out of the tower. And I look at Crazy Joe and I said something like, hey, don't worry about it, man. I got snipers up in these towers. You know, as if to say, dude, like, don't worry. I got this. And right as I finished that sentence, out of the bottom of this sniper tower, and the sniper tower was like concrete, kind of like concrete, uh, pipes that were on their side. And had like ladders or whatever stairs built inside of them than a little thing on the top, but it's big, but basically a big concrete structure.

• 4:28Jocko Willink?

  And right as I get done saying, don't worry about it. I got snipers in the tower. Right as I finish that sentence, two guys come pouring out of the bottom of this tower, like stumbling and disheveled. And one of them I instantly recognized because he's got red hair and I can see he's wearing a seal, you know, camouflage uniform, and I know it's one of my guys and I looked at the look in his face and he kind of looks like, damn. And which was understandable because I'm looking, as I look at him, I can see that his, his rifle, his sniper rifle had been blown in half. And so he had one, it was dangling from around his neck, the two halves of his machine of his, of his weapon

• 5:10Jocko Willink?

  were dangling around his neck because his weapon had just been blown apart by an RPG. And he was lucky to be alive. And, and that's exactly what had just happened. The RPG, machine gun fire to get people's heads down. They fired RPGs at this tower. On those towers, they had uh, basically like metal screen, like, uh, almost like a chain link fence to, to stop RPGs from coming in, but it would also detonate the RPGs. And so that's exactly what happened. It detonated in front of him and bone his, his weapon in half. He was lucky to be alive. And then less than 24 hours later, that same guy, Matt, was in the middle of the blue on blue

• 5:52Jocko Willink?

  friendly fire incident that, that we wrote about, that I wrote about in Extreme Ownership. He was in the middle of that. He was on the rooftop. He had hundreds of 50 caliber rounds fired at him from a distance of about 35 meters.

• 6:10Jocko Willink?

  And he was actually hit by frag in the face from one of those 50 cal rounds. And then after that, and this is a story that Leif wrote about, this same guy, Matt, fell probably 20 feet through a roof, uh, onto his back in the street.

• 6:29Jocko Willink?

  And look, he survived all these scenarios and many more scenarios throughout his, throughout the Battle of Ramadi and then throughout the rest of his career. And, uh, well, it's an honor to have him with us here tonight. Sniper, machine gunner, LPO chief, senior chief, frogman, and my brother, Matt Hasby. Matt, thanks for joining us, man.

• 6:54Speaker 01

  It's a pleasure to be here.

• 6:56Jocko Willink?

  That was, I will never forget that moment with how cool I thought I sounded and how reality I got checked with.

• 7:04Speaker 01

  You and me both.

• 7:06Jocko Willink?

  All right, on, all right, before we get into those stories, let's talk about, uh, let's talk about you growing up. What was going on? Born in NoDak.

• 7:14Speaker 01

  Born in North Dakota, um, the great white north. Fantastic place to, uh, grow up. It's where my family's from. Um, born, my mom was single. My dad decided to bounce. I have a half sister and consequently about the same age as me. So she probably wouldn't have been cool with that either way. So, uh, yeah, he left. Um, my mom was independent person. She moved us to Arizona for a while. We always kind of bounced back to North Dakota. She married my, my dad, the only dad I've ever known when I was two.

• 7:48Jocko Willink?

  And what'd he do?

• 7:50Speaker 01

  He, he was in the air force. He was, there's a big air force base in Minot, North Dakota. And so my family's from Minot. He came, he was in the air force and, um, yeah, I just got out. We decided to stay in North Dakota and yeah, he's just a good dude.

• 8:05Jocko Willink?

  What'd he do for 11?

• 8:06Speaker 01

  He, what did he do? Like, he was really like, uh, kind of like a mechanic. And so he kind of did that style of work all the way until he retired. He actually ultimately became, before he retired, he was the fleet manager at that air force base. So he ran all the vehicles as a civilian.

• 8:23Jocko Willink?

  Sure.

• 8:24Speaker 01

  And it was funny because I would talk to him and he would talk exactly like every fleet manager we've ever had in the Navy where everybody's the problem. And I would try to like, get it to like, you know, it's not that big a deal if they do this or that. He's like, hey, that's, that's not the procedure. And I'm like, oh my gosh, that's why they all think that way.

• 8:39Jocko Willink?

  Well, I'm unfortunate to report to him that you were very abusive to vehicles from the Navy for your entire career. Uh, we'll get to that later, I'm sure. And so then what were you like growing up?

• 8:51Speaker 01

  I, my parents worked a lot, so we didn't have like a ton of money because they were always working, so it gave me a lot of free time. So we also didn't have a lot of money for babysitters. And so, uh, when I was, I don't know, maybe in the first grade, we moved to Illinois, somewhere my dad's family's from and my mom, she was all, she was all in. And, uh, yeah, I was, I was a problem because I would get home from school, I'd have about two hours by myself. And, you know, I do, I got caught one time, I was, I was trying to start a fire in a bottle in my living room. I don't know why. I, I honestly don't know why. Um.

• 9:28Jocko Willink?

  You know how you have an urge to eat, let's say, you know what I mean? A human, a human has an urge to eat. Or a human has a, you get an itch on your arm, you have an urge to itch that itch, right? There's some people that they have an urge to start fires, like it's, it's an actual thing. And I'm sure that there must be some kind of like instinct to that, right? Because to survive as a species, you, you have to have someone that knows how to make fire, right?

• 9:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:56Jocko Willink?

  And so apparently you had that gene.

• 10:00Speaker 01

  I, I mean, I was, the theory was, I was like, oh, this will be cool. I'll put it in this bottle and I'll be able to like, control this fire. And then my mom came home, like lit, caught me in the middle and she's like, you're making a bomb. That heats up, that's going to explode and it's going to be all kinds of problems. And I'd like to say that was like, the first time I didn't know. She came home another time, the bushes were on fire in front of the building, like we lived in, like, I was a problem. I was a real, real problem.

• 10:25Jocko Willink?

  And how old were you for that?

• 10:27Speaker 01

  I would say I was probably around like, between like first and third grade.

• 10:32Jocko Willink?

  So this is when you were living where, outside of Chicago?

• 10:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was, I was living outside of Chicago. I was, uh, I was getting bussed into this sketchy school. So I, growing up, I had a lot of like, uh, learned disabilities. I, to say I had ADHD was an understatement.

• 10:46Jocko Willink?

  You have ADHD that has ADHD. It's like ADHD squared.

• 10:50Speaker 01

  Yes. And so.

• 10:53Speaker 01

  Back then, it was like you were the bad kid. So I spent a lot of time in the classroom distracting others. And so you know, your desk is facing the wall. And so the the one class that they found of like ADHD kids, I had to go is like, South Chicago, you know, it was like, it was.

• 11:07Jocko Willink?

  Oh, so they identified like a for real, you have an issue.

• 11:11Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 11:11Jocko Willink?

  Send you to a special school.

• 11:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, you know, like the special classroom, like when you're young. And so I went with these other kids that had it. And it was like, school of hard knocks. I remember my teacher, her, her name was Mrs. A. She drove a Harley to school. And these, and these kids were from diverse backgrounds. I think a couple of parents were in jail, a couple of prostitutes, like stories that growing up, I had never realized what was going on. And so these were some broken individuals at the time. And, yeah, Mrs. A, if you, if you got emotional, you cried, she'd kick furniture into you, like Spartan kicked the desk into kids. Like, it was great. Like, as an adult with children now, that is crazy.

• 11:57Speaker 01

  As a kid, I'm like, wow, she must be really mad. My parents weren't like that, but Mrs. A was. And so, yeah, we did that for a while. And then my mom decided, hey, it was time to to move back up north.

• 12:09Jocko Willink?

  How old were you when you moved back up north to Novak?

• 12:11Speaker 01

  Probably, I was in the fourth grade. Yeah, I remember I moved back to North Dakota. Mom wanted to, I think she realized I had a lot of freedom in Illinois. And like, it's Illinois is probably not the best place for me. So she moved me back to North Dakota, out where, you know, farm fields and all that other things where I had a lot of space.

• 12:28Jocko Willink?

  Less things to set fire to.

• 12:29Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 12:30Jocko Willink?

  Less things to damage.

• 12:31Speaker 01

  Exactly. It's a more room to, to do things. And so, yeah, we moved back to North Dakota. And that's where we were until I graduated.

• 12:39Jocko Willink?

  So did you continue down the like, troublemaking path?

• 12:43Speaker 01

  I got, I got better in North Dakota. Like, I got friends, there's a lot of freedom, you know, despite what people think, like, we still ride bikes in the winter, like, because that's how you get to places, nothing's close. So, I mean, I wouldn't say like, I was like a great kid.

• 13:02Speaker 01

  But I wasn't bad. I had a lot of fun. I was running around. I was also that kid like my mom would find me on my bike 10 miles out of the city in another town. Cause I was too cold to ride home, so I'd call her to come pick me up. She'd be super mad, but um, no, it was good. I, I, yeah, things like that. School was good, but wasn't, I wouldn't call myself a great student. Cause I didn't, I didn't really like, I don't want to try a lot. And so I learned if I never did homework, I would just have to ace the final. And then I would get a C. And once I figured that algorithm, it was over.

• 13:39Jocko Willink?

  Cs get degrees.

• 13:40Speaker 01

  That's it. That's it. Once I figured that out, I was just like coasting.

• 13:46Jocko Willink?

  What sports were you into?

• 13:48Speaker 01

  I, when I was young, I tried a lot and I hated them. Like I hated sport. I was like in soccer and I, you know, what's funny is I wasn't an aggressive kid. Like I was like super shy, wasn't aggressive. If like the kids were getting in the mix, you know, all trying to fight over the ball, I'd like kind of shy out.

• 14:04Jocko Willink?

  Really?

• 14:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know.

• 14:05Jocko Willink?

  You'd shy away and like think about how you'd get set fired to their cars.

• 14:10Speaker 01

  Um, yeah. So what my mom, uh, when I was in the, probably the sixth grade, she put me in taekwondo. Cause that's all we had in mind. There's nothing else. And, uh,

• 14:19Jocko Willink?

  What year is this? There's nothing else anyways. I mean, if this is in like the, is this the nineties?

• 14:25Speaker 01

  Oh yeah. Mid nineties probably.

• 14:26Jocko Willink?

  Oh yeah. So there's, there's not a lot going on.

• 14:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:29Jocko Willink?

  Like now you can go to jujitsu and MMA academies any, basically anywhere in the country. But in the nineties, yeah, you're lucky to have taekwondo.

• 14:37Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, totally, totally. And then I, now in my hometown, they have jujitsu. I'm like, I was lucky, lucky dudes. Um, but yeah, so I did taekwondo and that was like, honestly, it was kind of my anchor. That gave me a ton of discipline. And I had really good like taekwondo instructors that like, kind of like poured into me and, you know, kind of helped me like pull it together a little bit. It wasn't starting fires anymore. And like, I just spent my, I honestly, I was, I got pretty good. Like I went a lot of tournaments, a lot of state tournaments, regional, like my parents would drive me around to different states and,

• 15:12Jocko Willink?

  So what's the deal? Can you, can you kick someone in the head in taekwondo? What, let's say you're, you'd say when you're 15 years old, what grade is that sophomore year? Sophomore year, you're doing taekwondo.

• 15:23Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 15:24Jocko Willink?

  How do you win a tournament? Do you kick someone in the head? Do you kick? Do you make them quit? Do you knock them out?

• 15:29Speaker 01

  No, it's.

• 15:29Jocko Willink?

  It's point based, right?

• 15:31Speaker 01

  It's points and you have to like, so you're, you're evaluated on your ability to like basically pull your punches and kicks. So you kick and you want to like, if you can tap them and pull it back, you're like, oh, that guy's a master. Like he can almost hurt somebody. And so I, I was good, like I got that. It was pretty good. And I remember we were in a tournament and I think I was, I was, I was a new black belt.

• 15:55Jocko Willink?

  Let me ask you this. When you would do a tournament against a guy and you were doing that, like you're both pulling your punches. Did you feel like if you won or if he won, they would actually like that would translate to, hey, if we got into a real fight, eh, that guy probably would beat me. Or if we got into a real fight, no, I'd be able to beat him. I'm saying, does it, was it like translate well? Where if you and I were Taekwondo guys and we were in a Taekwondo tournament and I beat you, would you walk away like, yeah, that guy, he, he definitely was quicker than me or he had better combos than me? Or were you like, yeah, but if this was a real fight, I would kick his ass?

• 16:33Speaker 01

  Oh, a hundred percent like, there was, there was, I, I remember I beat this kid and then he came back and he beat me and he did a weird thing where he could hold his leg up and like kick it like almost like a machine gun. And then he would just kind of hop at you. And if you did something, he could like tap your head or tap. And so he was really good at this point system. I knew.

• 16:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, okay.

• 16:52Speaker 01

  In the street. I was gonna, I could crush that individual.

• 16:56Jocko Willink?

  Badass being the street 13, let's go. What about work? Did you have to have jobs?

• 17:03Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, so growing up, my mom, she owned a, uh, she owned a bakery. And so she made like cookies and cookie bouquets and cakes and things like that. And so.

• 17:12Jocko Willink?

  Cookie bouquets? Confirmed Echo Charles, that's a thing?

• 17:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 17:16Speaker 02

  All kinds of bouquets.

• 17:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And so I worked there until I was probably like old enough to work and like, uh, so my mom and I didn't get along. Like it's not that we didn't get along. She has a really good work ethic. And when you're a kid and she has an idea of what she wants you to do and you have a different idea. And since I'm not a real employee, I'm like her son. I argue or I don't do it as well. And so I did that till I was like 16 and then I got a job at, uh, Wendy's.

• 17:43Jocko Willink?

  How long did you work at Wendy's for?

• 17:45Speaker 01

  Oh, I mean.

• 17:46Jocko Willink?

  You know, I worked at Wendy's, right?

• 17:47Speaker 01

  No.

• 17:48Jocko Willink?

  Oh yeah, I worked at Wendy's. So you and I have a little bit of a freak.

• 17:53Speaker 01

  Making those square patties.

• 17:54Jocko Willink?

  Those square patties. Did you, I worked the grill.

• 17:56Speaker 01

  I worked the grill. That's honestly why I quit.

• 17:58Jocko Willink?

  That must be the entry posi, it must be the entry level position.

• 18:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:02Jocko Willink?

  Grill.

• 18:02Speaker 01

  It is. And why I quit is because I worked the grill so long, I never got the window. And you're just sitting there sweating over this grill. And I was like, oh, I hate this. And by that time, I'd kind of like, well, by the time I, I think I hit Wendy's, I knew what I wanted to do. So I was just killing time.

• 18:20Jocko Willink?

  So you knew you wanted to go into the Navy. You knew you wanted to go in the teams. How'd you hear about the teams?

• 18:25Speaker 01

  So I remember it was a Christmas. My, uh, my dad got, so my dad was a big reader, like, big into Vietnam. We'd always watch the movies. I remember my mom was nervous when I was three. My dad would like, we'd watch Rambo. She's like, I don't think that's good. He's like, oh, it's fine. It worked out great, huh? But he was way into these like Vietnam books. And so I would, I, I would like ferociously read these things when he was done. And you remember those old like novels, they're like thick. They're like two inches thick. They're like 400 pages. And so I'd read those. And so one of my uncles gave him Rogue Warrior. And I was like, okay. And so I got a hold of it before he did, you know, he unwraps, it's Christmas time. And I started looking. I was like, oh, I like this.

• 19:06Speaker 01

  And so I started reading it and I don't know what tipped my mom off, but she didn't like it. I like, I was way into this book. It was taking up all my time. And she's like, it's too much. So she, she took it away from me. And I was like, okay.

• 19:18Jocko Willink?

  How old were you? That book came out and I want to say 1991 because I had just got to the teams.

• 19:25Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 19:25Jocko Willink?

  When that book came out.

• 19:26Speaker 01

  So yeah, I was probably seventh or eighth grade. And so I got my allowance together, whatever money I earned at my mom's bakery. And I went and I bought a copy and then I read it like in complete secret. And then it was over.

• 19:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 19:39Speaker 01

  Like I was like, I'm being a SEAL.

• 19:41Jocko Willink?

  Check. And then you're just waiting. Were you, so you're going to school, you're just getting whatever grades you can get. Cs get degrees.

• 19:48Speaker 01

  Yep. Nothing else mattered in life, but wanting to become a team guy. That was it. And that's like, okay, so I need to graduate. Cool. That's all I'm going to do. I don't really like school. I don't have a plan after it.

• 19:58Jocko Willink?

  Did you go to talk to the recruiter? Just like, hey, I want in?

• 20:01Speaker 01

  Yep. Yeah, I was in DEP. I was in DEP at like seventeen.

• 20:04Jocko Willink?

  So was that your junior year?

• 20:05Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, like right at the end of my junior year.

• 20:08Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so you go in there, you'd say, I want to be a SEAL, and the guy's like, of course, yeah, you're gonna make a great SEAL, because that's what they tell them all.

• 20:16Speaker 01

  Well, and beyond that, I, uh, I got my buddy to join.

• 20:21Jocko Willink?

  Oh, really?

• 20:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, and so both of us, he'd become a SEAL, but I was like...

• 20:25Jocko Willink?

  Did he just join the Navy, or did he want to be a SEAL too?

• 20:28Speaker 01

  I think he might have wanted to be a SEAL. I don't know. I think I was, I was pretty persuasive at the time, and so I was like, hey, we'll join together. And because what I got, if he joined, Navy sweatsuit.

• 20:38Jocko Willink?

  Oh.

• 20:39Speaker 01

  And that seemed like a pretty sweet deal for me at the time.

• 20:42Jocko Willink?

  You wrecked that guy's life for a freaking sweatsuit, dude.

• 20:45Speaker 01

  He's one of my best friends to this day, and, um...

• 20:47Jocko Willink?

  Oh, you still talk to him?

• 20:48Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, he's, he did his four years. Honestly, he, I think he romanticizes those four years, because I remember talking to him at the time, and he had to like live on the ship, and, I mean, he's, he's a great dude, but, um, he's back in North Dakota, uh, he's got a great family, but, uh, yeah, I got him to join the Navy for that sweatsuit.

• 21:05Jocko Willink?

  That's classic. And then, what did you do to prepare?

• 21:09Speaker 01

  So, every morning, and I almost can't believe I did this, I would wake up at five thirty, and one of my buddies would come pick me up. We'd drive to the Air Force Base, because I could get on, because I was a dependent, and, uh, we'd swim. We'd swim every single morning, and I would do the eight hundred yards, and which is funny, I didn't do the combat side stroke, I did the breast stroke. When I went to BUDs, I was the only one to do the breast stroke, to do the screener.

• 21:32Jocko Willink?

  I did that too. Yep, I did that too.

• 21:35Speaker 01

  Because I hated the side, it would get water in my ear. At the time, I just hated it, and so I would do the breast stroke every morning until I knew I was good at it, and I would run a little bit, but, running in North Dakota in the winter is almost painful, because I had just that freezing cold air, so I would do enough. And then, yeah, I would just, that's kind of what I did.

• 21:53Jocko Willink?

  Were you doing pull-ups, push-ups, like anything like that?

• 21:55Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, all the time. Pull-ups to this day have been my thing since I was young. Like, I was one of those kids, like, you know, when you're in like, ninth or 10th grade, they do like the pull-up challenge and I was always on the board for the school of like, I could get some of the most.

• 22:10Speaker 01

  So that, yeah, that was my thing.

• 22:11Jocko Willink?

  And then, so you graduate high school, um, anything, you know, so now you're getting ready to ship out.

• 22:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was, so I graduate, I'm in the delayed entry program and I'm just trying to make it, like, just trying to stay out of trouble. I was 18 at the time and so, you know, we, you have a decent amount of trouble in North Dakota because when you're 18, Canada's right across the border, 18-year-old's drinking age. And so I'm just, I'm holding it together. And then, uh, I think it was like a week or two before we get ready to deploy. I get pulled over, I had a speeding problem. In North Dakota, when I was growing up, uh, there's, there, so in North Dakota right now, it's a ton of oil, right? Ton of oil, so we have problems in North Dakota like any other states, but back then there wasn't. It was just, they would get you, speed traps are everywhere.

• 22:58Speaker 01

  And then I wouldn't pay my tickets because I was a kid. I didn't, I didn't answer, you know, I didn't find the mail and I'd get a speeding ticket and then I'd forget about it. And I got pulled over and the, uh, the officer's like, hey, you have a suspended license. And I was like, how is that possible? He's like, you have like three unpaid speeding tickets. And I was like, oh, damn.

• 23:15Speaker 01

  And so he's like, um, I'm like, okay, so what happens? He's like, I have to arrest you. And I was like, oh, no. I was like,

• 23:21Jocko Willink?

  How far away were you from leaving?

• 23:24Speaker 01

  A day, like, like maybe like nine days.

• 23:27Jocko Willink?

  Damn.

• 23:28Speaker 01

  And it was close. And I was like, oh, this is not good. Because you know, when you're going in the Navy, so before I even, because, so I joined in like the SEAL Challenge Program. So I knew I was going to BUDS. Like, that happened. I had to fill out a security form, how many times I've arrested, my tickets, that's already filled out. And now he's like, we're gonna have to arrest you. And I'm like, oh, no. So they arrest me. And, uh, you know, I go to, I go to jail. And I don't know, for, for mine at North Dakota, I don't know if it was like a scared straight night, there was like a lot of yelling and like fighting. It was like some crazy stuff going on. And I remember like, Taekwondo, black belt, so I'm like, all right, gotta be hard. And, uh, they actually didn't put me in the cell with the others because I was a child essentially. And so I remember that.

• 24:11Jocko Willink?

  You're a black.

• 24:14Speaker 01

  They didn't know the pain that I was bringing. Um, and so they're like, hey, do you want to call-

• 24:18Jocko Willink?

  Karate man boots on the inside.

• 24:22Speaker 01

  And so they're like, hey, you want to call your parents? And I was like, not really. But, uh, you know, I remember my mom was actually opening up another bakery at the time. So my dad was home. And my dad was always like, he was like the tough love one. And so I knew, I knew what he was gonna do. He wanted to, I knew he was like, we're gonna, it's gonna be a lesson learned. And so I call my dad and he's like, hey, what's up? And, uh, I'm like, hey, I'm, I'm in jail. And what's funny is he didn't seem overly surprised, which should have been like a red flag for me. And he was like, what happened? I was like, I have a suspended license. I didn't know it. And he was like, um, okay. So what do they want? And I was like, well, they're, I'm gonna have to stay in jail. It's like a Friday night. So I'm like, I'm just gonna stay till Monday or you can come bail me out. He's like,

• 25:04Speaker 01

  why should I come bail you out? And I was like, well, um, cause I don't want to be in jail. And he was like, why is this my problem? And I'm like, well, you can be, I said this to my dad, like, well, you can come or I'm gonna call my grandfather, you know? And he was like, I'll be right there. And cause my mom wasn't home, I think really where his problem lied was my mom. She was gonna come home. My grandparents were gonna tell that they bailed me out of jail. She's gonna ask him why he didn't bail me out of jail. So I think he was just saving the pain for, from, from later.

• 25:31Jocko Willink?

  That would have been a freaking gut check. Yeah. He said, uh, lesson learned, forget about it.

• 25:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:37Jocko Willink?

  I'm not dealing with the wrath.

• 25:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. I don't, I just think he just didn't want to deal with mom. So-

• 25:41Jocko Willink?

  My son was in jail and you left him there to rot for the weekend?

• 25:44Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. And so he came, he got me out. Um, and yeah, so, and then I still, I almost, you know, almost went to boot camp. Um, right before I was going to boot camp, I was in, where you leave from is Fargo, North Dakota. So I was in Fargo, North Dakota, and I had a buddy in college, U N, one of whatever universities there. And so he was like, hey, there's a frat party. Do you want to go? And I was like, yep. And so I go to this frat party. And, uh, basically it's another bunch of kids drinking, smoking cigarettes. And I'm like, hey, this is cool. And so what the cool thing was at this frat is they would put out the cigarettes on their arm. And I'm like, that seems like an awesome idea.

• 26:28Jocko Willink?

  And plus, you're tough.

• 26:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm super tough, right? I'm Black Bell. Like, can't hurt me. So, you know, they're, every smoking cigarettes, and so I have the cigarette, and I put it out of my arm a few times.

• 26:43Speaker 01

  So anyway, what, you know, I wake up, I, I think I have like a day or two, I ended up going to, you know, it's time to leave, right? So I go, I go into medical checks, you're taking your shirt off, the doctors like poking at you to make sure you're ready, that you can show up.

• 26:58Speaker 01

  And he looks at me, my arm, he's like, what's this? And I was like, oh, I just, I gotta burn. He's like, that's an open wound, you can't go. And I was like, and so my mind, I've already said goodbye. Like, everybody's like, bye, son, like, and so I have to call my mom, and I have to be like, hey, I, I can't go for another two weeks. So she has to come pick me up, and I have to go home and heal, and I just straight two weeks of sulking, that's all I did. And then my buddy, we were, so how we, when I got the friend to join, the deal was, we got to go to boot camp together. He went by himself.

• 27:29Jocko Willink?

  Not anymore.

• 27:30Speaker 01

  No, yep.

• 27:31Jocko Willink?

  But you got that sweatsuit.

• 27:33Speaker 01

  I got that sweet sweatsuit, and he had to go to boot camp by himself.

• 27:36Jocko Willink?

  Uh, so you leave for boot camp, how was, I can imagine that boot camp was quite a shock to your system.

• 27:42Speaker 01

  Oh, boot camp, I almost think boot camp was worse than Bud's, like, the worst time of my life. Like, I remember I got there that night, they're like yelling and screaming in people's face, and I'm like, oh, what did I do? Like, this is not good, like, and so, you know, and then immediately, like, boot camp, you put all these kids into one area, and we're all immediately sick. And so then I just stayed sick for the next five weeks. And so, like, you're in formation, you're supposed to keep your hands at your side, I'm just like, snots pouring out of my face, and it sucked, I'm not.

• 28:17Jocko Willink?

  Where'd you go to boot camp, Chicago?

• 28:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, because by then, it was the only one. And so, yeah, I do that, and then finally, what my saving grace was, um, I got my wisdom teeth pulled. And so when you get your wisdom teeth pulled, you can sleep.

• 28:31Jocko Willink?

  Oh, you get, like, isolated? Do you get isolated?

• 28:33Speaker 01

  No, you just get to go in your rack, and basically, it's like, it's like two or three days of just basically, like, drugged sleep. And so I did that. Went unconscious and then like emerged.

• 28:47Jocko Willink?

  Right on. And what, what A school did you go to? Cause you still had to go to, this is back in the day.

• 28:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:51Jocko Willink?

  Go to A school.

• 28:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. So I went to um aviation ordinance. They're putting bombs on planes. I didn't pick the school. My recruiter did. Cause he was like, hey, what school do you want to go to? And I was like, well, I'm being an A B SEAL. So what's the fastest school there?

• 29:05Jocko Willink?

  True.

• 29:06Speaker 01

  And he was like AOA school. I didn't even know what it was. I was like, cool. Sign me up. How long? He said, he's like six weeks. I'm like, perfect. Cause I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna quit. Like, looking back on that, that was not a calculated risk.

• 29:20Jocko Willink?

  Dude, I was talking about this uh the other day. If you actually ran the logical numbers to see what career path you should take. Joining the SEALs would not compute. Like if you put into chat G P T or one of those A I things, you said, hey, I got Rangers, got Special Forces, got Marine Raider, got Air Force C C T or P J and got SEAL. Which one of these has the best probability of me having a cool life? SEALs would be the bottom because most, a lot of people quit and when you quit, you're, you're not doing a job that you're probably gonna be that engaged in. So

• 30:01Jocko Willink?

  there's not much logic and reason behind selecting the SEAL teams. Unless you're just one of those guys, you're that guy. You like, you're like, oh, that's the one I'm gonna do. It's kind of uh, it's kind of strange that it works like that.

• 30:15Speaker 01

  It's, yeah, it's, it's crazy. And it's like at your 18 year old mind, how much like weight that decision has. And when you want like, you see these individuals go into BUDs at our kids and then they quit and they're like, and then you, the realization hits that they're like, oh my God, I'm gonna be a gunner's mate on a ship. And they're like, I didn't even like being a gunner's mate.

• 30:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 30:36Speaker 01

  And you're like, well, this sucks, friend.

• 30:39Jocko Willink?

  And they still quit.

• 30:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:40Jocko Willink?

  All right. Uh, so you finished that school, you showed BUDS. Anything that really shocked you about BUDS when you got there? What year is it, by the way?

• 30:49Speaker 01

  Two thousand and one. So nine eleven hit when I was in A school.

• 30:53Jocko Willink?

  Oh, okay.

• 30:54Speaker 01

  And so all the SEALs are training, we're getting ready, and it's gonna be cool. Nine eleven hit, and then we're like, oh, this is real. Like, life's about to get real. Which was kind of exciting for us, because now we knew, like, as long as we pass BUDS, odds of us going to war are high. And I mean, when you're a SEAL, that's, I mean, that's culmination, right?

• 31:11Jocko Willink?

  That's what you're doing.

• 31:12Speaker 01

  That's what you want in life. And so, yeah, we, uh, we get done, we get to San Diego, and honestly, like, what surprised me at first is, BUDS is kind of chill when you show up.

• 31:27Speaker 01

  You know, you come into San Diego, they drive you to the quarter deck, they're like, cool, here's your room, it's Friday or whatever, uh, you know, uh, we'll muster up on Monday, like, they lull you. It's a sense of, of calm before the storm.

• 31:42Speaker 01

  And then that storm is hard. It's heavy.

• 31:47Jocko Willink?

  You see, did you do, like, did they call it fourth phase or prep? Like, what was the pre-BUDS for you?

• 31:52Speaker 01

  No, there was, there was no pre-BUDS. You showed up. It was, it was, they had, like, the pre-BUDS was you checking in before first phase. So the amount of time you had from first phase is until the next class started.

• 32:03Jocko Willink?

  Okay, that's, that's what I did too. It was like, yep, you show up, and when I went that through, they called it fourth phase. So there's first phase, second phase, third phase, and the fourth phase meant you were getting ready to start BUDS. And if you had, if you showed up three weeks before the class, you got three weeks. If you showed up, I guess the most you could have showed up, first phase at that time was nine weeks long. So you could have showed up, you know, eight weeks prior and had eight weeks of fourth phase. But, yeah, that's what it was. And every day was just kind of a repeat, you know, it was like, oh, swim, run, swim, run, PT, swim, run, PT, do the O course a little bit. It was just like, there wasn't a progression or anything. Right now, there's a much more squared away system, you know, where you

• 32:44Jocko Willink?

  start light and you're gonna go through this whole cycle before you start actually in BUDS. But for you, it was just, all right, cool. So how much time did you have before you classed up in first phase?

• 32:55Speaker 01

  I think I had, like, Three weeks and like you said, it was, there's no control. The proctor would come out and it was just a SEAL E6, what I know now.

• 33:05Speaker 01

  And depending on how much of a sadist he was that day, it was either we were hitting the surf or it'd be a run swim. And like, we were kind of off early every day, you know, like three, four o'clock. They're like, hey, go, we go eat and walk around the beach, walk into Coronado. And you're like, this is all right.

• 33:20Speaker 01

  Life is good.

• 33:21Jocko Willink?

  So then you class up, what, what class did you class up with?

• 33:24Speaker 01

  I started with three nine.

• 33:26Jocko Willink?

  Two thirty nine?

• 33:27Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 33:27Jocko Willink?

  Two thirty nine. So you started in two thirty nine. Was anything hard for you in first phase?

• 33:33Jocko Willink?

  Before hell week, let's say.

• 33:34Speaker 01

  Honestly, where I kind of paid was I was better, but I still came like highly immature. So like these officers are telling me what to do and I'm like, why, why do you know better than me? And so I'm gonna, I'm gonna save everybody figuring it out. I was raised an only child. And so I was by myself and so I had a little opposition to authority. And so that was a, a steep learning curve and um, so in, in three nine, it wasn't bad because I was so like shell shocked. Like all of a sudden I went, I'm kind of this in shape kid and then all of a sudden I very much wasn't like where my weakness was, was running.

• 34:17Speaker 01

  Like I was the goon squad guy in first phase. Like in bootcamp, I, only reason that I made the screener was I failed the run the first time. And when I came back, I had a buddy in my bootcamp class that was a good runner and I, and he had failed to swim. And I was like, will you pace me? And so he paced me and I passed with like an 11 minutes out of like an 11:30 or it was like 11:30 out of 12. And so I got to Bud's and that was like my Achilles heel.

• 34:45Jocko Willink?

  It's weird because you're built like a runner.

• 34:46Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 34:47Jocko Willink?

  How tall are you?

• 34:48Speaker 01

  Six one.

• 34:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you're like long, lean. You look like you should be able to freaking haul ass.

• 34:53Speaker 01

  Oh, by the end of Bud's, I was top 10%. But showing up, like I said, in North Dakota, it was cold. You didn't run a lot and I also like. I didn't really know how to run. So when I was in first phase, I had my roommate came from Colorado and he was this like high level, long distance runner. And he would watch me run and he's like, dude, your form sucks. He's like, you run like a sprinter runs lots of arms, lots of legs like, and so he basically taught me how to run distance. Where it's like, keep your hands down by your waist, like cut movement down outside of what like your legs are running and he, I credit him and unfortunately quit.

• 35:27Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I was gonna say it's a, I was gonna ask you, did he make it?

• 35:31Speaker 01

  He got, oddly enough, he got stress fractures the day before hell week. And he got, uh, he rolled out and so he came back, ended up quitting in pre-phase. I think he just knew too much, but yeah. So anyway, he taught me to run and that's kind of that got me up to speed.

• 35:45Jocko Willink?

  And then you get into, so the only challenge you had was running and then you get into hell week and how'd that work out?

• 35:51Speaker 01

  Well, no. So before running, that challenge I had, the 50, the 50 meter underwater. And so I don't know what it was. Like I had this block, like I got in, you know, we do the 25, no big deal. And the 50 I got in and I made it about 25 and almost died. And then, and, uh, the instructor looks at me, I get out and he's like, Matt, you have possibly the worst underwater form I've ever seen. Cause you know, you gotta do like, um, a breaststroke, but you gotta drag. And I was like kicking, I was trying to do it fast. So I was just like burning oxygen. And so you know, you have a few times to try and I'm failing all these times and on the weekends I'm going to the pool. And I want you to do the 50 under modern at the Navy pool, cause they want you passing out. So I'm doing like all these 25s and finally it's the last time.

• 36:36Speaker 01

  And I, these three guys get in and I just step in front of them. Cause I'm like, I don't care, friends. You're not going to fail me today. Like, I don't want to see anybody fail. It's not getting in my head. So I get down, I do my 50, I pass, you know, obviously no big deal.

• 36:48Jocko Willink?

  What was like the transition that you did in your head?

• 36:51Speaker 01

  It wa, I got, it was not moving. It was being, it was being comfortable, not moving. You know, you like, you do the,

• 36:57Jocko Willink?

  You need to glide, you need to glide.

• 36:58Speaker 01

  The glide and that was kind of like the, the, the, the thing that triggered. And so I gla, I did the glide. I was as deep as possible. And it went fine and every single dude behind me failed. And I was like, and that's why I like unapologetic. I stepped in front. I'm like, you're not failing in front of me today. I don't want that mental thing. So yeah, so then fast forward, I get into hell week. Um, hell week's fine, but I'm a skinny dude. And so I started to kind of shut down where like I would eat, but I wouldn't drink. And so I would drink water only when I was thirsty, but I was so cold. I wasn't drinking a lot of water. And, um,

• 37:37Jocko Willink?

  You ever heard that? When I started like, when we do winter warfare type stuff? And people would say, you need to drink more water when it's cold. And I'm just like, no, that's not, that can't be true, bro. That cannot be true. Cause when it's hot out, bro, I drink water like crazy. And when it's cold out, I barely drink water. And so that's probably what, and I think it's just psychological. Like you don't feel, you're not, you don't feel sweat, you're shivering. You don't feel like drinking freaking cold water. And so maybe that played a role.

• 38:06Speaker 01

  Oh, a hundred percent. And then it does things like physiologically inside your body. And so I wasn't drinking and then we did the, um, like the, uh, hard sand demo pit run where it's, it's like a, just a quick run and back. It's not supposed to be a hard evolution. It was before, uh, Chow and I was dead last and I hadn't been

• 38:25Jocko Willink?

  How far into the hell week is this?

• 38:27Speaker 01

  Uh, this was Monday, Monday night. It's early, like it's early. And so it's Monday night. And I just can't, like, I can't keep up. Like you're, you're digging and I, you know, like when you dig harder, you can run a little faster. Like I physically can't do it. And so because I was late, they're like, we're going to do it again. Cause I'm mad, you know? And so they run again and now I'm farther behind.

• 38:51Speaker 01

  And they're like, oh, we got a weakness. We found, you know, like he, he, he can't, you know, and so hold, and so we, we get beat as a class. I'm not quitting. And so I got pulled aside by an instructor and I got put on the decon showers. And do he put the boots to me like I'm on the floor. I'm jackhammering like I'm like, you know, I'm making deals. I'm like, God, I'm ready. I'm not going to quit. But if you want to take me, it's time. Like, I'm OK with it. Like, I'm fine. And so I'm not quitting. And finally, you know, we go into med checks and they're like, hey, check him out because they're gonna, I'm like, I'm gonna get more. And I knew something changes. They they put a blanket on and they give they they put me in the the pall socks. And then all of a sudden, I went from one corpsman to three doctors. And I was like,

• 39:35Speaker 01

  OK, and then also I started getting food. And then they started warming me up. And I had an instructor pops in and they're like, hey, is he coming back? And they're like, no, he's on the first ambulance out. And I I think my core temp went down to like 92. And then my pall socks was in the 80s. And what happened was I got site swimmers induced pulmonary edema. And so my lungs were filling up. And so one of my lungs was like, I think, like, almost half full. Damn, dude. And I remember, and I remember when I got to Balboa, it was funny, because I was so jacked up and nobody I was in the ER. And these nurses were awesome. And they were looking at me and they're like, what the hell happened to this guy? And so, you know, they I know what like, I just went with an ambulance. There's no one there to explain

• 40:20Speaker 01

  like, hell, how what's going on. And so I get it. And they're like, hey, they they're doing the pall socks and all over again, I'm having all these doctors are kind of panicking because like, things are going wrong. I'm not breathing. And I remember they come to me and they're like, hey, we need to give you a catheter. And I was like, I don't know what that meant. And so what would happen is I would keep falling asleep as they were talking to me. And so like, they're like, hey, we're gonna, you know, put a needle in your arm. I'm like, cool, I'd fall asleep. And they would poke me and I wouldn't notice. And she's like, hey, we're gonna put a catheter. And I'm like, cool. And I fell asleep. And then so she came to put the catheter and I woke up like somebody scared a cat. And I sat straight up. And I'm like, no, no, no, you can't do it. And she was like, no, no, you said it was OK. I was like, no, I'll do anything.

• 41:01Speaker 01

  And I started like pleading. And I started making deals. I was like, you can't do this. And she's like, no, no, it's gonna be fine. And I was like, please don't. And I was like, you know, I was like, kid. She was great. This nurse was great. She kind of calms me down and they put it in and it's horrible. It is horrible getting a catheter put in.

• 41:19Jocko Willink?

  I've never had it, so.

• 41:20Speaker 01

  Yep, and so I, I still remember this day. She, when she put the catheter in after it was in, I had my head, I was sweating and she just rubbed my hair. She just came up to the bed and she just rubbed my hair and she was just like.

• 41:31Jocko Willink?

  Like you were a five year old?

• 41:32Speaker 01

  It was, it was the most mom move a nurse has ever done to me and I was so like unhappy, just like this unhappy little kid. And she's like, are you okay? She's like, here, it's fine, you're fine. And so. So the worst thing was though, I spent, I spent a week in the hospital. And I knew things were wrong because like, I would have like Navy people coming out of your uniform. And they would like quiz me what happened. And they're like, hey, did this happen during surf torture? They would use the wrong words. I didn't know who they were. And so I'm like defending butts. No, no, that didn't happen, you know, and so I'm protecting him. And I remember, and it must have been an officer as an adult. I know this now. He came in. And like my little girlfriend was sitting there, sitting beside the bed and he was like, um.

• 42:17Speaker 01

  They would come in twice and I'd have to blow into this like mechanism where I have to float this ball and kind of work my lungs back out. And he's like, so hey, how do you have to get better? And I told him I'd blow in. He's like, so when do you do it? And I was like, oh, and the nurse. Uh, has, tells me to do it. And he's like. So you wait for the nurse to come in? And he kind of started to grill me on the spot. And I still don't know who this guy is to this day, but he was like, kind of like being kind of a dick. And I remember I started sweating because you know, I'm in Bud's and I don't know who that guy is. And my girlfriend at the time was like, who is this mofo? And anyway, he ends up leaving and so I, I get out of the hospital. I get a ride back, you know, they, no one's there to pick me up. So I wait and like the duty driver comes and picks me up. And the most painful thing I remember, I was sitting in Bud's Medical and the Hell Week class secures.

• 43:00Speaker 01

  So all my friends are done and I see them and they look, you know, they look horrible and they're all beat up and they're cut up and I'm sitting there and they just finished Hell Week and I was. It was so painful to like watch those guys. And so, yeah, I'll never forget that.

• 43:17Jocko Willink?

  How long did it take you to recover? Did you get rolled to one class?

• 43:19Speaker 01

  I got roll one class. I was right in.

• 43:21Jocko Willink?

  Not too bad.

• 43:22Speaker 01

  And it and it wasn't like.

• 43:24Jocko Willink?

  Did you recover physically? Were you like, all right, I can pass runs now?

• 43:27Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. And when the medical was super cool, they're like, so, hey, the odds of this happening, they we went by, they're like, hey, how much were you drinking? And I was like, I don't know. They're like, gauge it. And I was like, maybe one cup over like the thirty six hours. And he's like, oh, my God. And they're explaining is like, when you're cold, the drink in the water actually like, I guess not having water is one of the things that like helped it happen. And so they're like, drinks tons. So when I did the next class, I rolled into the next class and that was like, Leif was the OIC. And when I was in hell week, I drank water like it was my job.

• 43:56Jocko Willink?

  And no factor then next time?

• 43:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Got win win through hell week, like, made it like, it was fine. And um.

• 44:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, no fact. Oh, I'm sorry. No, I made it. Four zero was my class. And then Leif was four one, so I hadn't met him yet. So I went with four zero. Um, no factor through hell week, first phase, fine. Um. We got into second phase.

• 44:21Jocko Willink?

  And then how did you do in second phase?

• 44:23Speaker 01

  Second phase was okay. Like, I got in, like, I was fine, but I I'd never dove, you know, from North Dakota, like, I it was never a thing in my world. So outside a pool. So I was uncomfortable under the water, like, especially with diving. So when I was in A school, I actually got like my scuba license because I thought that would help me. Did not.

• 44:44Speaker 01

  And so I was uncomfortable and I was doing everything. Um.

• 44:48Jocko Willink?

  But like with a beet red face.

• 44:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, like.

• 44:50Jocko Willink?

  Totally uncomfortable, borderline panic.

• 44:53Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. There was one point where when I was doing something and I got hit by an instructor and I did a full load. Like, you know, like when you're like, you're about to like frog jump up from the bottom of the pool. I did a full load and I didn't do it. But the instructor punched me in the back of my head when I did it like, because I knew not to go up because I mean, you're going to AG AG, right? I've had I have a deep breath at depth. And if I was going to go up, I'm going to hurt. And so I went panicked and I like went to the like balls of my feet to like crouch. And he was like, oh, this guy is going to skyrocket. But I paused and then he punches me, you know, and it and that's what they're supposed to do, right? To like, save me. And that little interaction, he'd never recover. Like, he was like, hey, you're a huge liability, like, did not like me.

• 45:36Speaker 01

  And so he was like, he saw me as like this liability, right?

• 45:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you could be a borderline panic-er.

• 45:41Speaker 01

  Yep, so I, we, we do pool comp and um, I'm fine, but he gets me. He gets me on the final, like, you know.

• 45:51Jocko Willink?

  So you failed it a couple of times?

• 45:53Speaker 01

  Um, no.

• 45:56Jocko Willink?

  Cause they give you, they have to give you a different instructor.

• 45:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, and so he made sure he was my instruc- and I don't know if he made sure, I'm, I'm saying it. He was my instructor in the last one, so I passed, what was it, like, three or four before then? Were you doing the buddy stuff? Passed all that. But it's buddy stuff, you can always blame that on someone else.

• 46:12Jocko Willink?

  You were gonna bolt, you were gonna bolt, that wasn't during pool comp when you were gonna bolt from the bottom. It was during gear exchange or something like that?

• 46:18Speaker 01

  No, it was right before, it was when they give, they give you kind of a, like, what this is gonna be like. And so they give you like a pseudo pool comp before you do all the ditch and don stuff. And that was like the bolt moment. And so I do the ditch and I do all that, it's fine. And then I get to the final, you know, whatever the, the main one was, and he was my instructor. And he put the boots to me, and so, and honestly, to this day, I failed, right? So I fail, I um, whatever, I get rolled. And um, that's when, I roll into four one, Leif's the OIC.

• 46:54Speaker 01

  I think he wished he wasn't the OIC of my class, cause I still would say.

• 46:58Jocko Willink?

  Cause you were in it?

• 46:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, and even in, I would still challenge Leif, like, and not like overtly, but I would like, hey Leif, this seems pretty stupid. And he'd be like, you know, and I'm eighteen, and with my great ideas, and he'd be, and he was a, he was a mature LT. Like, he, he'd spent time in the Navy. And so he would be like, Matt, and Leif's a really like, pretty calm individual, but I know in my life, I have taken him to a few of his limits. And um, and so, uh, anyway, so I, we go all the way through to pool comp again. And that instructor is my instructor every single time.

• 47:37Jocko Willink?

  Really?

• 47:38Speaker 01

  He never breaks, and if, and there was a one time where he had another instructor, but he joined him. And so I knew this was wrong, and this is again, it's buds, our team guys, and so the teams are letting this happen, but thank God, the um, the SEA, the E8, and the OIC figured it out towards the end. I first timed every timed it all the way and then I failed three like what did you get?

• 47:58Jocko Willink?

  I think you get three chances.

• 47:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, so then I failed it twice in a row and that was like a red flag to them and they're like, hey, how many times has Matt passed? And I unquestionably first time every time, like I was super comfortable now. I had practiced, I'd been under the water, like we'd been hammering each other, like I was good. And so, you know, they had the big windows under the pool and so they watched. And so I get, I get my final pool comp and he just, he works me hard, but I'm ready. I do well, like I crush it and so he gives me the whammy knot. And so I had a deep breath and I remember this.

• 48:29Jocko Willink?

  Whammy knot is you got your dive gear on and eventually they're going to give you a problem. They give you all these problems that you have to solve underwater and eventually they give you a problem that you can't solve, which is a knot in your gear with the, with the hoses that bring air to your mouth. They give you a problem that can't be solved and they call it the whammy knot.

• 48:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's just something you can't undo. And so I look at it, I play with it, I've got this deep breath and I'm like, this is it. So whammy knot, so you know, you fold up my gear, I do it all perfectly. I get to the top, you know, and I'm like, hey, diver's okay or whatever you say. And he's like, fail. And I literally, I'm blown away and I'm like, how is that possible? And he was like, you didn't try to take a breath. And I was like, dude, bro. And so this is Friday and so I'm like, that's it, you know, Bud's dream is over. I remember we went to Chow after that and I called my mom and I was like, because I didn't know who else to call, right? I'm 18 years old, there's nobody else to talk to, like, I'm a kid. I call my mom and I'm like, hey, I think it's done.

• 49:33Speaker 01

  Like I'm literally fighting back tears, like dream is over.

• 49:38Speaker 01

  And so it gets to Monday, I go to the board and they're like, hey, Matt, here's the deal. We've never done this, I've never seen this happen, but we watched you. We're not going to roll you, we're not going to roll you, we're just going to push you forward. And they're like, and they didn't make excuse for the instructor, they're like, what's it going to be? And I said, Roger that, and I continued training.

• 49:59Jocko Willink?

  Damn, check, good times.

• 50:03Jocko Willink?

  Land Warfare, you roll out, all good, San Clemente Island. When you went through, did you graduate from BUDS? Like the big, was the big graduation from BUDS? So you had the big ceremony and the big flag and all that stuff?

• 50:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:16Jocko Willink?

  For graduating from BUDS?

• 50:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, we did BUDS and then the SQT where you got your Trident, because we, we got our Trident SQT. That was the private ceremony at the SQT building.

• 50:25Jocko Willink?

  And they give you your bird. And so now, they, you, when you get done with BUDS, they basically like, you hit the surf, they give you a certificate that says you graduated and then you go to SQT. There's no ceremony whatsoever. Now it's, you graduate from SQT and it's a big ceremony with the families and all that, the big flag and all. And you get your bird that day too.

• 50:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:45Jocko Willink?

  Which is different than it used to be. Uh, so how was SQT?

• 50:51Speaker 01

  SQT was actually good by this point. I, once I got out of BUDS, like, I kind of figured it out. Like I grew up, I, I don't know what clicked. BUDS was a hard run for me. Like again, I was immature most of the time, like, there's stories Leif can tell you where, like I said, I, I think the most angry I've ever seen Leif was when I made him angry. And I know I've told you the story before, like in second phase. And, um,

• 51:18Jocko Willink?

  Oh yeah, you like somehow took his life jacket. He was looking for his life jacket.

• 51:22Speaker 01

  Hundred percent. And I, I told him I didn't have it and then we were late and that was the only time he's ever like, I got super pissed at me, left, was so mad to came back to yell at me again.

• 51:34Jocko Willink?

  Dude, I, well, I remember angry Leif dude. I mean, you, you're like, oh, Leif's really calm. Like dude, he's calm now. He, he would, he, he would have a temper for sure that, you know, especially like something goes wrong. And, you know, because the thing is Leif cares about stuff, you know? And when you care about something and it's, someone's doing something that's counter to what you care about, like, you're going to get pissed off and frustrated. And, you know, not nothing crazy, but like I definitely, you know, I would give him shit because, you know, his poker face. Like we'd be talking to the boss or something like that. And the boss would say something and maybe, you know, maybe it wasn't the best idea or something. Or maybe he was going to negatively like, we're going to have to work, I don't know, we gotta stay for the weekend or something.

• 52:15Jocko Willink?

  Or just didn't make sense and you could see like Leif's face would just like start going red and I'd be like, we'd walk out, I'd be like, bro, your poker face is terrible. He's like, oh man, well, that's bullshit. Like that guy, this doesn't make any sense. I'm like, I know it doesn't, but like, let's, let's figure that out outside. So I always gave Leif a hard time and, you know, to this day, we joke about angry Leif. Yeah. So I can imagine, I can imagine angry Leif visiting upon, visiting upon immature Matt. If I was going to talk about angry Leif, I'd have to talk about freaking immature Matt, which is definitely another character in this whole, this whole jam.

• 52:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, they went, they went hand in hand.

• 52:58Jocko Willink?

  Oh, freaking awesome. And, but no challenger, anything in SQT?

• 53:03Speaker 01

  Um, no, honestly, SQT went fine with the exception of one thing. When we did SQT, we had like this big land warfare and we did it with a buddy first. And then I remember-

• 53:16Jocko Willink?

  What do you mean land nav?

• 53:17Speaker 01

  Land nav, I'm sorry. Yeah. Land nav. And so we do land nav and I had my buddy and I was pretty good. I picked it up pretty quick. And so my buddy just kind of followed me and I was running it all day and it was fine. He, he let me and I wanted to, right? And so it was not a big deal. And then the next day was by yourself. And so, and I just blew it out. Like I found almost nothing. And the whole day before, like I was crushing it, like terrain navigating, not using compass, sometimes walking into these. And I mean, it's literally a stake in the ground, you know, like you can't see it. It's a very small thing.

• 53:52Jocko Willink?

  Were you guys in Alaska? Or were you in Laguna?

• 53:56Speaker 01

  Laguna, and, and I must found nothing. And so then the SQT guys are like, oh, we found your weakness. Like you're not able to land nav. And I literally couldn't figure it out. And then I remember in the spot, he's like, Matt, go find this point right now. And I couldn't find it. And it was supposed to be like 30 feet away. For the life of me, I couldn't find it. And I was like, oh my God, I did it again. Like I can't figure this out. So the next day comes, final land nav test. Crushed it like

• 54:23Jocko Willink?

  What you just had like an epiphany?

• 54:24Speaker 01

  No, I don't know what happened. I to this day, I do not know what happened that day. I don't know if I messed the declination up on my compass. And I was kind of, you know, a few degrees off and anything, but you know, I do my thing. I make sure everything's solid. And I mean, I moved through that thing because I was like, what if I don't find I need extra time and I was done by like 11 a.m. Yeah, crushed it like no big deal. And they were like, well, I guess you figure it out, Matt. And I was like, yeah, I don't, I don't know. Yeah, sure. I'll take it. Like whatever makes me a Navy SEAL, let's do it.

• 54:53Jocko Willink?

  So then you you end up going to team three.

• 54:55Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 54:55Jocko Willink?

  Uh, how many guys from your from your like, was it a pretty good crew of guys? Was it like 10, 15 guys going to team three?

• 55:02Speaker 01

  I think it was like exactly like, I think 14 or 15.

• 55:05Jocko Willink?

  Yep. And did you go right into a platoon?

• 55:08Speaker 01

  Yep. I immediately got to team three, got immediately put in Charlie Platoon.

• 55:13Jocko Willink?

  And Charlie Platoon at this time, the crew that you had in there, the crew that you had in there, dude, uh, your, your platoon commander is a freaking epic dude, just an epic dude and like a maniac, like just a maniac, awesome in the best part. In like the best positive way, just like a maniac stud athlete, uh, just a freaking awesome dude. And a maniac, your platoon chief is like another maniac. And again, I mean that in the best possible way. And when you have, you know, so, so normally in a platoon and they set them up this way on purpose, like when you get to

• 55:55Jocko Willink?

  when you're, when you're organizing platoons at a team, you'll be like, oh, I've got Echo Charles, he's wild. And I'm going to put him with Matt because Matt is, you know, uh, more straight and narrow and you pair them up or like, and you do that, try and do that with everything like, oh, you know, Echo is really good at land warfare, but Matt's really good at CQC. So we can put them together in that, or you know, uh, uh, Matt's, Matt's deployed to Iraq a bunch of times, but you know, Echo's deployed to Afghanistan. So we put them. So that's what you do. You're building like a complimentary platoon. And there's checks and balances too. So you end up with like, oh, a guy that's a little bit more, let's say tight and a little, you know, Boy Scout and Hell's Angel, right? You want a Boy Scout chief and a, and a Hell's Angel, uh, OIC or a Boy Scout OIC and a Hell's Angel. So you know, you just kind of put it together.

• 56:42Jocko Willink?

  What you you had is freaking hell's angel, hell's angel in that platoon. And so how was that rolling into that?

• 56:50Speaker 01

  Dude, it was, I mean, and I thought all platoons were like that in the very beginning. Cause I was like, it was all throttle, all gas, no brake. Like it was, you know, cause the OIC, he was that, he was the first officer I said, full seat, two full sleeves, covered in tattoos and like unlike any officer I'd seen before. Uh, the chief was, he was like, he was like, kind of like, cause the chief to a new guy, basically their dad.

• 57:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 57:17Speaker 01

  But like, just no holds barred. He was either gonna, you know, punch you in the back of the head or teach you exactly how to do it the right way every single time. And you'll never forget the lesson ever again. And so it was, honestly, it was great. And then of course our new guys were like, you know, you've had Bob Holland on here, Chris Kyle. Well, those were. No, I'm sorry, not new guys, the one platooners, which were absolute sadists.

• 57:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 57:40Speaker 01

  And

• 57:42Speaker 01

  cause they just got back from their platoon being a new guy and they're like, oh, meat.

• 57:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 57:46Speaker 01

  It's like prison, like fresh meat. And you're there, you're like, hoo ya, whatever you want. And so, um, yeah, it was, it was phenomenal, like a fantastic platoon. And the funny thing is I almost got pulled from it because I wasn't supposed to be in Charlie, apparently. I was supposed to be in Alpha and Z got a hold of me, Z picked me.

• 58:08Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm. Z was the chief.

• 58:09Speaker 01

  Yes, Z was the chief. Yeah.

• 58:14Speaker 01

  He was the chief and he picked me because I was a, a leadership challenge.

• 58:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 58:18Speaker 01

  Like I, I got good marks from SQT, but when Bud, they're like, Matt, Matt's, he's going to argue like, so he's like, hey, he actually wanted this leadership challenge, but they're like, hey, he's squared away, but you're going to have to do some work. And so he's like, great.

• 58:29Jocko Willink?

  And he's going to put in work for sure.

• 58:33Speaker 01

  And so um, he, he, he picked me and uh, I, they figured out that we were in the wrong platoon. It was actually me and a good buddy of mine, still to this day is a good friend of mine. And they were going to switch us and Z, he was like, hey, do you want to switch? I was like, no, I like this, like, even though like, the four platooners are scary and you and Rob are like, no holds barred, like, it was kind of my personality already, so I was like, I like it here. So he pulled me in and that became my platoon.

• 58:59Jocko Willink?

  And what was your job in that first platoon?

• 59:02Speaker 01

  I, I had two jobs, I was in the ordinance and then the air department. And air was my primary, ordinance was my secondary, and then we got a couple other guys and then we had to pick. So I just got put in the air department, one of the new guys, they, he was the primary in ordinance, he stayed primary. I stayed secondary ordinance, so basically all I had to do is when I went down there, I had to help him with inventories. But my primary department was air, so my first school was.

• 59:26Jocko Willink?

  And would you walk in the platoon, were you a pig gunner?

• 59:29Speaker 01

  Yes, well, so when I, yeah, because when I got to the platoon, uh, the chief was like, hey, you want to go to comm school? I did not want to go to comm school, and I know you were a comms guy, and I get it, and I just.

• 59:42Jocko Willink?

  There's a reason I wanted to go and there's a reason you didn't.

• 59:44Speaker 01

  I know, and so the war, by this also, like, the war was starting to kind of kick off and I was like, I want a radio. I don't want to have to be by somebody and have them use the radio. And so I was like, I remember the conversations, like, do you want to go? And I said, whatever you want me to do, I'll do. And he was like, but do you want to do? And I just repeated it again, and he's like, Matt, you're really making this hard. And I was like, chief, whatever you need, I'll do. And he's like, you're going to be a pig gunner then, and I was like, Roger that.

• 1:00:12Jocko Willink?

  Did he give the comm school to one of the other new guys?

• 1:00:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:15Jocko Willink?

  That ended up being the comm guy?

• 1:00:16Speaker 01

  Rex.

• 1:00:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, got it, cool.

• 1:00:20Jocko Willink?

  Alright, so now, how's workup? Besides freaking off the rails crazy?

• 1:00:25Speaker 01

  And the funny, like, the, the, the funny thing, like, when you do a workup, you realize like, how like, everybody's kind of relearning a cycle, so when we went through training, it wasn't like, like when you started running trade at like, how like, professional it turned into like. Back then, there wasn't a lot of checks and balances. So I remember we got to our first block, which was Sauk. So we're running around cities. And so it's very different when you're carrying a pig in the city than when you are at Land Warfare. And the heavy machine gun, the only time I'd ever shot one before I was a heavy machine gunner was an SQT, and I just did a fam shoot. You shoot like, what, 200 rounds?

• 1:01:02Jocko Willink?

  So you had no freaking clue?

• 1:01:04Speaker 01

  Nothing. So I remember I get the gun, and they're like, cool, load up ammo. And so I I load it up, and I'm like, hey, how do I put this ammo on the gun? There was no box. And then my, the old guys, and I remember Bobby too, because he was the head pig gunner. And he was like, where's your box? And I remember I was like, what's a box?

• 1:01:25Speaker 01

  And he's like, you don't know? And I had no clue what this box is. And so I was like, no. And then I got kind of mad. And this was, this was not great. And so I, I remember I got, you know, um, we have to like, do this weird thing throughout the day where it's kind of like strung around an arm like Rambo, and the links are raised. It's horrible. So we get done with the day, and they're get the new guys in. None of the new guys had boxes. One guy did, because Bobby had a box, and his, his new guy was, um, the one who got Bob's extra box. There was no other ones. Chris was now a sniper, and he was like, well, I didn't bring my box. And so I was like, great. And so they're kind of laying into me. And I, and I remember I kind of snapped. I'm like, why the hell would I know? I've

• 1:02:08Speaker 01

  in my 20 second fam shoot. And I, you know, when you say something, you want to take it back? Because I see the fire in the old guy's eyes, as they were like, oh, he spoke up. And I was like, oh, that was a mistake.

• 1:02:20Jocko Willink?

  That's your first trip?

• 1:02:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, very first.

• 1:02:23Jocko Willink?

  Running your sock on your first trip. Ain't gonna go good for a brother.

• 1:02:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I remember, I remember I had about three people almost inside my face within 10 seconds, and immediately like, backed down, regretted it, paid for it a little bit. And then I went about building a box out of like, whatever, like scrap material I could find, and then ran the rest of the trip with it. Never let that happen again. And every single trip for the rest of my career, when the new guys were going, I'm like, do you have a box? And so, yeah, that was, that was trip one.

• 1:02:56Jocko Willink?

  Uh, was there any big challenges that you faced during CQC or anything like that or land warfare?

• 1:03:03Speaker 01

  CQC was, was good. Like, I really enjoyed CQC. Kind of clicked like the, you know, the geometry of it going through, like, and I took it to heart. Like, I was that guy that if I made a misstep going in the house, when the day was ended, I would just stay at the kill house and I would go 100 times each leg going through the front door. Like, I loved it. Um, land warfare, I could run the gun, but as a new guy, I remember this trip, I was, um, you know, you get new guys, instructors put a lot of pressure, put a lot of stress on them. And I remember I had this one

• 1:03:42Speaker 01

  instructor chasing me around. So I'm running the, the, the heavy gun. It's probably 120 degrees. So I'm just keeping it going. I'm keeping it. And he is on top of me. He's like, Matt, let's get this going. Get your gun up. And I just can't.

• 1:03:55Jocko Willink?

  Guns up, guns up.

• 1:03:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. I can't keep it going fast enough. And he is all over me. And you know exactly the person I'm talking about. And he is legendary for land warfare. And I remember.

• 1:04:07Jocko Willink?

  And legendary for like getting in your head.

• 1:04:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:10Jocko Willink?

  Like, he's gonna get in your head. Part of your training is like him.

• 1:04:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. If you cannot fight him, and, and, and nobody does, but like, that's like, you made it, you know, like, and I remember he was, he was chasing me and I had 100 rounds left. And so I had to put it in my box. And I remember he's like, get it loaded up. And then I just threw it out onto the range. I just took the reins. I just threw it out on the range and I looked at him. And I was like, two things are gonna happen. We're gonna fight, or you're gonna stop yelling me. I didn't say that, but I just knew those were one of the two things that were gonna happen. And a miracle, he walked out, he picked up my rounds, he handed them to me. He didn't say a word. And then he just shifted focus to somebody else. And I think he's like, okay, that one's done.

• 1:04:54Speaker 01

  And so that was, and I remember I got back and you know, the chief is like, hey, Matt, come here.

• 1:05:01Speaker 01

  Whoa, what's up, chief? And he's like, so you can't be throwing your rounds at the desert. Hey, part of our job is being cool under pressure. They do this on purpose. And again, like why I say like chief is dad. He did a great job. I actually, they didn't crush me for that. They were just like, hey, learning lesson. When you're stressed like that, you don't get to break. And I was like, hey, check. And I never happened again.

• 1:05:23Jocko Willink?

  There you go. Uh, what was, where'd you guys go on deployment? You guys, didn't you, this was when we were rotating through. So you do half your deployment in the Pacific theater, no war, and then half your deployment in Iraq. And again, the weird thing is this is because everyone thought the war was going to be over and we better get everyone to Iraq. We get the chance to get people to Iraq, get everyone to Iraq. It's, it's a little bit of the fair fairy, right? Like, cause it doesn't make sense to be like, okay, we'll send this platoon for three months to Iraq. And then we'll bring a different platoon for three months. That doesn't make sense. The only way you can justify it is, well, we want to get more guys to Iraq, so we'll send them there for three months. But that's what we did. That's what you guys did.

• 1:06:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so we went to, uh, Zambalwanga, the OPI. And so we're on this base buried in the Philippines, like deep in the Philippines. There ain't nothing around. And it was horrible because all the snipers went to Iraq and this is when Fallujah kicked off. So we're reading after actions.

• 1:06:26Jocko Willink?

  And Chris is in your platoon.

• 1:06:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:29Jocko Willink?

  Chris Kyle, but for, for those of you that don't know, so Chris is in your platoon and he's one of your snipers. And, and he talks shit like with the best of them.

• 1:06:41Jocko Willink?

  He's, he's right up there, dude. He will freaking bring it. And so now he's over there. Along with the other, the other snipers that you guys have.

• 1:06:50Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, totally. He's over there. He's just doing God's work and we're just reading all these after actions about like him, Smurf and all these guys. And they're just like these epic battles. Cause Fallujah, it's Fallujah. And we're in Zambu and we're just working out every day and sweating it out. We live, I, we lived in a hut down by the water and I say hut, I mean hut. It was just like, it was surrounded by chicken wire. It was 90 degrees by 7 a.m. like sucked. And um, so we're, we're, it's like a good time while you're absolutely miserable because all you want in life is to be in the mix. And we're reading these and we're depressed and um, during this time, the leadership pair

• 1:07:34Speaker 01

  did a good job at like, they would rotate us up to Manila. And we'd stay in a nice hotel, get good meals and just like blow off steam. So we weren't in this hut and we do about once a month. They keep at least two guys would rotate together.

• 1:07:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:47Speaker 01

  Um, and so, yeah, it was, it was long, but it was, all it was, was just, just waiting to get to Iraq, just kind of like building up steaming.

• 1:07:59Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And then you get there. So then you, you do three months in the Pacific and then it's boom, over to Iraq. And where'd you guys go? Baghdad?

• 1:08:08Speaker 01

  Yep. Yep. We rolled right into Baghdad.

• 1:08:10Jocko Willink?

  And then what was your, what was your mission?

• 1:08:13Speaker 01

  We were DAs. Thank, thank the Lord because our sister platoon went to do the um, PSD mission. And so they were protecting, I don't know, whoever and we got DAs. Now, that doesn't surprise me with who our chief and who our OIC was. If anybody's not doing the PSD mission, it's them. And then again, our platoon was, I didn't realize this till later, like, we were monsters. We were made up of like, perfect element of like monsters. Like there wasn't somebody in the platoon of like 90% that was like, um, you know, a question mark. It was, you built this platoon to go wreak havoc. And so, yeah, we just, we did a ton, a ton of DAs. Um,

• 1:08:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:00Jocko Willink?

  What was your, what was your job on a DA?

• 1:09:02Speaker 01

  So luckily, right before we deployed, um, I got the opportunity to skip pre-deployment leave and go to breacher school. So they, they asked all the new guys, they're like, hey, you never get a school as a new guy. Like I went to rigor school, would have learned how to pack parachutes as a new, it was my only school. And so they're like, hey, there's these spots and all four new guys in our platoon took them. Um, they're like, we've got four spots. Who wants to go to breacher school? So we all skipped pre-deployment leave, went to Virginia, went to breacher school. And I mean, it was awesome. Well, I couldn't think of a better thing to do during pre-deployment leave than go play with explosives for a month.

• 1:09:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. You finally got to make bombs for real.

• 1:09:40Speaker 01

  Exactly. And I was like, oh, I'm in my element. And so, uh, I got out there. I was a breacher and I was a new guy. And on our very first mission, the chief came to me and he's like, hey, you're lead breacher tonight.

• 1:09:52Jocko Willink?

  Hell, yeah.

• 1:09:53Speaker 01

  And I was like,

• 1:09:54Jocko Willink?

  How freaking pumped were you, dude?

• 1:09:56Speaker 01

  Like, I was super pumped and then super scared. Cause it wasn't that I knew, like, you still want to make a mistake. Like it's showtime, right? And I had never been all outside the wire. I had never seen bad guy land. I was on base. And so now we're going into bad guy land, never having seen things and I'm about to be the lead breacher. And I remember,

• 1:10:19Jocko Willink?

  That is a lot.

• 1:10:20Speaker 01

  It is a lot, right? And so, but what was funny about that first time was it didn't go as planned. So I'm in the courtyard. I'm getting ready to put the, the, uh, the explosives on the door. And we had to climb over the fence and the chief was coming over the fence and fell into the gate. And so those metal gates. So it's like boom. And so everything's up. And so me and, uh, one of the old guys who was in the courtyard with me, we look at each other and we're like, okay, we better get this on. And so as I'm going to put the strip on the door, dude answers the door. And then, you know, it's that moment of realization where he looks at you, you look at him and you're like, uh oh.

• 1:11:03Speaker 01

  And both of us, I think, had the exact same expression, like, kind of surprised, but kind of like, oh, something's about to happen. And so then I just instinctively like spear him, you know, and I'm in the house now and then it turns into a huge massive flood and it's chaos. But it went down and, you know, no factor, we do, I do another breach. But yeah, that first one was, did not go as planned. Like I had it planned out my head and then I think I'm wrestling the guy with explosives in my hand and like trying to make sure I don't blow myself up and crazy.

• 1:11:35Jocko Willink?

  Good times. That's the way it goes down. First off.

• 1:11:40Jocko Willink?

  And what was your op tempo like? Were you guys going, going every day, every couple of days? Was it pretty good op tempo as far as doing hits?

• 1:11:47Speaker 01

  It wasn't Ramadi for sure, but I would say two to three times a week. So we were like, we were busy because it was early in the war. There were lots of targets and we were chasing everything down. You know, you remember you get intel on somebody, you were there within hours. And so we were, we were turning and burning and it was awesome because I got so much, like I was the breacher. He gave me, the older guys would breach, but they would, we would do two to three hits a night sometimes. And so they would give us a lot of runs at being breacher. So we got to do a lot of, a lot of hits, a lot of blowing indoors. And so it just made us really good.

• 1:12:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Hell yeah. And then, but that was only a three month period and then it was time to go home.

• 1:12:27Speaker 01

  Yep. That was, it was quick. And so did that, went back to the beach.

• 1:12:33Jocko Willink?

  When, when did you and your, uh, new guy brethren, cause you would get called, your little crew would get called the sisters kids, right? Did that come from that platoon or did it pick up when, when the next platoon?

• 1:12:49Speaker 01

  No, that was that platoon. So where we got that name is when we were doing a workup. And this was where Breacher School locks in is we were doing our final FTX. And so we remember we used to get locked down on base. And this would be a base out in Southern California and it was kind of for the most part vacant like just a bunch of buildings left left vacant and so we'd be out there for 10 days. Nothing else to do. And so you just sit around and this is before like cell phones had TV and all that other stuff. So like you're reading a lot of books. And so we would drive around this this empty base essentially and there'd be like old base housing and old buildings.

• 1:13:33Speaker 01

  And so we're like, hey, what's happening? And they're like, oh, I think they're going to tear all this down. And so we're like, cool.

• 1:13:39Speaker 03

  And so Let's get a head start.

• 1:13:40Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:13:41Speaker 03

  Let's help the cause.

• 1:13:42Speaker 01

  So one afternoon we get done and we're bored and we're like, hey, let's go out in the the the the base and practice breaching. And shockingly enough, from like an objective point of view, nobody said anything as all the new guys got all the breaching equipment, all the sledgehammers, the hoolies, the chainsaws, the quickie saws, and we loaded them up into trucks. And not trucks, Humvees, and then we just drove away. Like where no checks and balance like and the thing is I remember the guys watching us and just being like, yeah, cool, man. I don't know what's going on. And then we proceeded to rip the lid off of that base. And we and we um, I remember.

• 1:14:26Speaker 01

  And it was like, I think we breached every single door in a four block area. And you know, they have those like duplexes and it would be, we would breach it and then we go inside and then we breach those doors. And then we drove a Humvee through a sliding glass door of a building into the living room. And then then we videotaped all of this, by the way. And then we have a videotape of a of a toilet getting thrown out of the second story window onto the ground. And then three more times and then my face coming out be like, did you get that? And just the most damning evidence. And then um, they had these old houses that they hadn't moved away that were on pillars.

• 1:15:08Speaker 01

  And so like geniuses, we took sledgehammers to those pillars and it knocked those houses off, which almost crushed us. Inconsequently, we like jumped out of the way, all on video. And so

• 1:15:21Speaker 01

  And so we think, again, we think we're doing nothing wrong. We're like, hey, this is old. Like, nobody cares what we do here.

• 1:15:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and to just echo to give you some context, like, so you go to these bases that are shut down. And you'll go and do a hit on one of these buildings and you will legitimately breach the doors, trash the thing, freaking do whatever you're gonna do. And, you know, it's a house and there's, there's a hundred more of them. And so in your mind, you're like, well, yeah, we did this yesterday to a random house. Like, oh, okay, let's go practice some more, cuz it is, it is practice. It's also like if you're freaking Matt Hasby and you're a breacher, it's like fun, you know? That's like, there's something about breaking glass, like breaking shit. And you're like, oh, it's fun. And so technically speaking, it's, I'm just trying to explain, it's not like you in some, like,

• 1:16:10Jocko Willink?

  neighborhood, you're in, you're in a place where this is what happens. This is what happens. You know, we used to have it down here by the, by the, by, in San Diego, those places that are condemned areas. Well, we used to go and train in those areas and we'd do this exact same thing. Freaking drive Humvees through front doors, like, we would do that stuff. And so this, I'm just trying to give you some context, Echo Charles, about like, where this is coming from. This is totally normal. And I guess it wasn't quite as, as normal as, you know, you hoped it was, cuz at some point, what happened?

• 1:16:43Speaker 01

  Well, so we learned, so there was a Navy CB, one of those guys that, you know, fix everything up, who was taking pictures of us from like afar. So there's like these grainy UFO looking pictures that made its way back while we were training, like, the next day. And, um, then it became into question how dilapidated and how like abandoned these buildings were. And I know today, they're still abandoned, so they weren't. But I think it got pulled into like, hey, we may have to use these in the future. And so then it got real, real fast.

• 1:17:22Speaker 01

  And it went all the way up. It went all the way to the CO and then it was like they wanted heads. They were going to fire people. And luckily, our senior enlisted advisor at the time was the Ops Master Chief of the team. And so we had some pull.

• 1:17:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:17:38Speaker 01

  And because.

• 1:17:39Jocko Willink?

  And he's, he's freaking good to go and he's gonna look out for the boys.

• 1:17:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, he's legendary. And so he gets in front of it and at the time, the Master Chief, he, he was, our nickname for him was the Milkman because when he put his Master Chief hat on, he looked exactly like a Milkman. But he was not, he was not like a boy type leader. He was very rule, very rule driven. And so he's like, hey, we gotta fire them all. And first of all, the chief's like, you can't, I mean, literally clean me out of new guys. We'll be undeployable. Like, we'll have 12 dudes. And so he was like, well, then tell me what happened. He's like, I sent him on breacher train. And our, our chief got in front of it and he took the entire hit.

• 1:18:25Speaker 01

  Now, that's also not free. And so he saved us. We, we essentially got a slap on the wrist. Nothing happened from the team.

• 1:18:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:35Speaker 01

  It was not so much inside the platoon. I will say though, by the next day, a couple of black eyes and shaved heads.

• 1:18:44Speaker 01

  And we were, we were training again and the platoon was tasked to solve the problem, which they happily did.

• 1:18:55Jocko Willink?

  All right. So then you do that deployment that you did half in PI, half in Iraq. You come back from that and then you roll into your second platoon, sticking with Charlie Platoon.

• 1:19:09Jocko Willink?

  This is going to be now task unit bruiser.

• 1:19:10Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:19:11Jocko Willink?

  So BTF Tony comes in as your platoon chief. Leif takes over as the platoon commander. I come in as the task unit commander. You keep a bunch of your, a bunch of the, of the one platoon guys stayed, including Chris, Bobby.

• 1:19:28Jocko Willink?

  And then, and, and a few others, and then you guys, all that, and so where'd you get the nickname The Sisters Kids? Cause

• 1:19:36Speaker 01

  That was that, that was that.

• 1:19:37Jocko Willink?

  That was the incident?

• 1:19:38Speaker 01

  Cause it was like, you know, when you're like, gosh, my sister's kids are always causing problems.

• 1:19:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, no, I get that.

• 1:19:44Speaker 01

  And that was, that was really where that was born.

• 1:19:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:47Speaker 01

  Was that, that incident was we kind of became The Sisters Kids.

• 1:19:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, so you had, what was it, there's three or four of you guys.

• 1:19:52Speaker 01

  There was four of us.

• 1:19:53Jocko Willink?

  Four of you guys that were The Sisters Kids, and it like, that's kind of how I remember being introduced to you guys. Because your chief became this, the SEA for Task Unit Bruiser, and so then I kind of got the deep, the brief on you guys, like, oh yeah, they're freaking great guys, but,

• 1:20:12Jocko Willink?

  but they're, you know, we gotta keep an eye on them and whatnot, and so that's what happened. So now you roll in, and then, by the way, and then you get now your new guys, of which you got Biggles, and you got Johnny Kim, who, uh, you know, we've talked about on here before, and then a few other new guys as well. So you, you roll into that, um, what's your, what's your impression when, when the transition happens?

• 1:20:39Speaker 01

  I mean, so we were stoked just to not be new guys. It was a rough go, and the thing is, like, we turned, uh, we turned in kind, of course.

• 1:20:50Speaker 01

  Spanked kids, spanked kids, and so I think Johnny Kim wasn't super pumped about that, but, um, yeah, we were just not being the new guys anymore, like, we were like, we finally have the power. And the thing is, it was kind of stolen from us, because back in the day, you know, you did your one platoon, and then most of those guys left. But we kept a ton of our one platooners who are now two platooners. And so then we got like this, we became these middle half new guys, half one platooners, where we still had Chris and Bob and some other guys, and we're like, damn it, we thought we would like get the power. And so we always still had somebody's like, we're always still under somebody's thumb, and so probably a little bitter about that. And so, uh, yeah, it was good though. We were, we were stoked.

• 1:21:32Jocko Willink?

  Um, and then you end up, well, like, like I said, you end up with some checks and balances because you know, you got BTF Tony, who's a freaking maniac. And, but then Leif, you know, who's like, you know, he's gonna, he's gonna pull the reins in, right? Uh, you have the SEA who's a maniac, but then you have me and I'm gonna pull the reins in. So you end up with, uh, a little bit more checks and balances. Not that, you know, it was always perfect because, you know, there's still wild things are gonna happen, but that's kinda how we rolled into, uh, tasking a bruiser. And then we start, our first trip was land warfare and we start getting after it.

• 1:22:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, and it was awesome. Like, we, I said, like I said, I, when I thought we were monsters in the first one, they held nothing. The second one was aggressive. And I, I remember being kinda nervous about Leif coming in. Leif and I had history. It wasn't bad history, but it wasn't like, you know, like you said, I was, I was young. Leif was hot. And so when he came in, I was like, uh-oh. And, uh, no, it was, it was good. And Leif held the line, man. Like, he, we, we did not mess around. We weren't allowed to be slow, like, um, yeah, it was, it was, it was rough. I, I, I hadn't, I'd been to sniper school, but they made me

• 1:22:52Speaker 01

  carry a heavy gun for land warfare and I did it with absolute hate and discontent, discontent. Like I was pissed. Cause I went to sniper school, like learned sniper skills and I'm like, oh God, get away from that damn gun. And then they're like, hey, it's land warfare. You're gonna carry a heavy gun. And I was like so pissed, but then I ended up, I ran it well. So I got put in Leif's squad. And Leif would even talk about, he'd be like, dude, you pull away from me when we were running.

• 1:23:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's impressive.

• 1:23:15Speaker 01

  I was like, dude, I was so goddamn angry. Like, that's the only thing that ran that gun.

• 1:23:20Jocko Willink?

  Fueled by hate.

• 1:23:21Speaker 01

  That was it. 100% hate of that, that gun. But yeah, no, it was good.

• 1:23:27Jocko Willink?

  And and BTF Tony, who was like born at Nylund.

• 1:23:32Speaker 01

  Oh, man.

• 1:23:32Jocko Willink?

  So he's just like freaking.

• 1:23:35Speaker 01

  I mean, anyway, he's an absolute tactician. Like he knew everything that was going on, but he loved Nylund to like a scary point. Cause I remember, you know, we'd we'd have the workup and then those like after workup trips and all that. And he would start planning him to go to Nylund and we're like, oh, God, no. And he's like, guys, Nylund's the greatest training environment imaginable.

• 1:23:53Jocko Willink?

  True statement.

• 1:23:54Speaker 01

  And it is, right? It is objectively, but we but you know, this was also early in the war, lots of money. Like we were like, we wanted to go to Tennessee and Kentucky and Washington DC and all these like super fun places. Tony's like, no, the desert. That's where we need to be. And I was like, oh, man. So it was, you couldn't learn from a better person, though.

• 1:24:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Um, yes. When when Johnny Kim showed up at Nylund, it was the first trip and he showed up late because he was a new guy that, you know, you mentioned new guys don't get any schools and that's totally true, except for Johnny Kim somehow gets to go to sniper school.

• 1:24:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:33Jocko Willink?

  And so he shows up late to Nylund and I remember I just talked to the chiefs, all three of them, like, hey, guys, don't be doing any dumb shit. Like, we don't, we don't know the new guys. Like, if you have, if you have hazing taking place and the new guy ends up being not, you don't want the guy in the, in the team, then he can kind of hold that over you, right? So you can put yourself in a precarious position. So we had kind of had that conversation. I'm talking to the chiefs like, hey, guys, like, just freaking be professional with these new guys. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, says the tasking commander. I literally walk inside because we were out on the range having that conversation. I walk inside and

• 1:25:19Jocko Willink?

  I think it was Chris actually is like, like, hey, Kim, go meet the commander. And Johnny's like looking around, has no idea what's going on. And he's like, it's right there. And he points at me and Johnny comes running over. And I look at him, you know, like, hey, man, nice to meet you. And he looks back at me. He's like, it's great to meet you. So you could see who I was like, dude, he looks like a little shocked right now. And then I look and like, there's hair. There's like hair, like he's had a hat on, but there's like hair on his collar. And I go good. And I just knew I was like, they just freaking beat his ass and shaved his head. And I was like, it's good to meet you too, dude. Like, welcome aboard. I was just like, God damn it, dude. This is how it's gonna be.

• 1:25:57Speaker 01

  There was no greater sin that Johnny could commit than going to sniper school without, yeah, his input to that. Like, he just got sent and we came, we're like, oh, you think you're awesome. And, you know, we're all mad. And so, cause we went to sniper school, but because they needed snipers so much in Iraq, they made another sniper school. And it was just for like, a lot of the team three guys. And we went through all the sniper, went through the trainings, we had the sniper suites, we had the guns. JP and I went through it and we got a lot of work, but we didn't get any of the love. Like, we were kind of like, like the bastard kids of like, that went through this alternate sniper school where they're like, well, you, you know, we did pit, we did all that stuff, but they're like, well, you didn't go through the other one.

• 1:26:39Speaker 01

  So we're not going to know if we're going to count it. And we're like, bro. And so,

• 1:26:43Jocko Willink?

  So Johnny gets the real deal.

• 1:26:45Speaker 01

  Johnny coming with the real deal. We were just like, don't think that you're gonna, you're coming here special, Kim. You know, and, and, and such a humble guy too, which makes it worse. You're almost more irritated about that. Cause he like,

• 1:26:58Jocko Willink?

  That's the way things work. Isn't that interesting?

• 1:27:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So, so we, another thing, you started showing up because I, I would never make the E dogs do jujitsu. Because I, I feel like that's imposing, you know, like the, I don't impose the, the power structure over the, the boys. But for officers, I felt differently. Like if you're going to be an officer and you're in my task, you know, you're going to work for me. You're going to know how to fight. And so I, you know, like officers, zero, 500 at the team, mats are out and we're training jujitsu. But, you know, some, some of the E dogs heard about that. Of course, an open invite. So you started coming out. What made you, how'd you roll into that scenario?

• 1:27:40Speaker 01

  So it was when Leif and Stoner did the Kumite at Nyland. And I remember like, it was almost like a fight was happening. I remember walking down the hallway at um, the desert training center and you hear like all this crazy like cheering, like it's literally like a cockfight in there, you know, and so you're like, oh, what's going on? I gotta get in there. And Leif and Stoner are like in this almost pseudo unskilled like death battle. And so, yeah. And so I was like, oh, this is awesome. And so I saw that and then like, that was it. Like from then, like I, that's when we started training, like we, we trained

• 1:28:19Speaker 01

  out there, our 530s in the, the breezeway at team three. I still, I can still like vividly to this day, remember like turning the corner and it always sucked when you beat us because you'd be like disappointed. And so like, because you know, it's 5:30, you're trying to get there, you're making it and you of course are up at like four. And so you're like standing out in the breezeway, waiting for people. And you like turn the corner to like, see if I can beat Jocko and you're standing there. And you're like, hey, and you're like, well, glad you showed up finally. I was almost ready to leave. And you're like, I know, sorry.

• 1:28:55Jocko Willink?

  Uh, anything else from workup that you remember?

• 1:28:58Speaker 01

  Um, no.

• 1:28:59Jocko Willink?

  Because I know you didn't really have any, like, there was no like challenges or anything like that. I mean, you're, once you get done with your first workup, the second one's gonna be, should be pretty smooth. Um, there's not like, oh, I, I made it through CQC or land warfare and now I'm not gonna make it. That doesn't happen very often.

• 1:29:16Speaker 01

  No, it was outside, the only, uh, we had what, Mark Lee join us halfway through. Um, and no, I, that honestly was the most fun workup that we had. Like, that was awesome. Like awesome. The stories are still legendary.

• 1:29:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And we were kicking ass too. So it's like the Trade Att guys, when you're doing good, and you know this from being in Trade Att, when, when the, when the troop is doing good, like Trade Att's having a good time too. When the troop is doing bad, Trade Att's pissed and everything sucks. And it's like this, the whole thing turns into a nightmare. But when you're kicking ass and Trade Att's freaking stoked and you're working like, you want to work as harder than Trade Att wants. They're like, oh, hey, we want to stay, do more. And they're like, okay, cool. Like, right on, keep getting after it. So, yeah, it was all good. It was all good. A good time. Good workup. Lots of chaos.

• 1:30:11Speaker 01

  Dude, it's never ending.

• 1:30:13Jocko Willink?

  Uh, so we were supposed to go to Baghdad. And we, you guys were actually on pre-deployment leave. And the CO, I was at work and the CO was like, hey, I gotta talk to you. I go down there into his office and he's like, hey, we're reorganizing Iraq as far as SEALs go. And we're going to put all Iraq in Western Iraq. So we're all unified under one element. And that means you, instead of going to Baghdad with your task unit, we want you to go to Ramadi instead. And I was like, you know, trying to act calm, you know, trying to be like, oh, that sounds like, you know, it's like, yes, sir.

• 1:30:55Jocko Willink?

  If that's what needs to happen. And inside I was like, hell yeah, because Ramadi, you know, was really bad at the time. And I figured really bad place is really good for us to go.

• 1:31:06Speaker 01

  And you, we didn't, we actually thought the opposite. We thought you got, you got ranked. And so we want, cause we thought if we went to Baghdad, we're supposed to work with like their tier one. Cause remember at the time we had to take out the, the locals with us. And so we're like-

• 1:31:22Jocko Willink?

  By the way, I went on pre, uh, pre-deployment assessment. So I went there and worked with those guys. It was the ICTF, it was the Iraqi counter terror force and the SEA. We both, we went and we went worked it like op with those guys and like started doing the turnover and started getting all the word. And so it was really locked in that that's where we were going. So, uh, I cut you off, but just to let everyone like that, that's what was happening. We were definitely going there.

• 1:31:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that's what we thought. Like we were like super pumped. We're like, oh, these guys operate all the time. We had all the words from our buddies, you know, and so, cause we didn't really know anything about Ramadi. And obviously we weren't doing the homework either. What?

• 1:32:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. See, I did know what was going on in Ramadi.

• 1:32:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:03Jocko Willink?

  So that's why I was like, oh, hell yeah.

• 1:32:05Speaker 01

  And now looking back, we're like, thank God. But at the time, yeah, we were just like, oh man, we're not going to Baghdad. Ramadi is going to suck. We're not going to work. And then it was very much the opposite.

• 1:32:15Jocko Willink?

  Very much the opposite.

• 1:32:18Jocko Willink?

  So at at some point, like at what point did you go, oh, we're going to a place that's going to be good? Did you or was that? Did you not have that calculation? You're like, oh, we just got screwed?

• 1:32:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. All like we were on the plane. We're like, this is gonna suck. We're just gonna like, it's not gonna be busy. And it didn't hit. We were in Ramadi, which as you remember, it started happening real fast. The learning curve was fast on that one.

• 1:32:45Jocko Willink?

  Cause I'm thinking, cause I know I left. I don't even know if you guys were back from leave yet. But I don't know how much of a chance I even had to like, brief you guys like, hey, we're changing. We're going to Ramadi. And then I left with like, like a group of us left to go start turnover. Cause we had no done no turnover. But I was tracking, man. Like I knew as soon as the skipper said that to me, I was like, oh, oh yeah. Like it's on. Uh, just cause the intel was crazy for Ramadi at that time. Um, not so much for the SEALs that were there, even the SEALs that were there were doing what they were doing. But like, just broadly speaking, it was freaking chaos there. And it was even, you know, when I was there in oh, four, when I was in Iraq in oh, four,

• 1:33:28Jocko Willink?

  Ramadi was kind of like, like Fallujah was definitely the, the, the worst. And then Ramadi was kind of its little brother. But then when the Marines pushed through Fallujah and cleaned it out. Well, first of all, before they pushed through, a lot of those insurgents left to Ramadi anyways. And then once they had pushed through Fallujah, Fallujah was much more settled down. And now Ramadi became the freaking, the, the hotbed of chaos there. So I knew that. And so I was freaking pumped, but I apparently I didn't do a good job of explaining that to you guys, which is no, you know, that's the way it is.

• 1:34:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. You guys were gone.

• 1:34:06Jocko Willink?

  So we show up there, you show up there. What do you remember? Like, what was it like? At what point did you go, oh?

• 1:34:13Speaker 01

  So it was, we showed up and we still think like, this is gonna suck. And so I remember it was actually JP and I. And so remember we went to Corregidor. And JP and I were

• 1:34:25Jocko Willink?

  So wait, you got there and we're going to Corregidor and you still weren't like, oh damn.

• 1:34:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, we went to Corregidor though, within like a day or two, like we still, and the thing is, it may have not have all been on you at this point. I'm 23, like you saying it's bad doesn't equate to it's bad because we're also getting a turnover with the other SEALs and they didn't work as much. And so we're like, dude, these guys didn't work. I know, you know, it's probably Jocko's like, he's gonna be great. We don't believe him. He's just pumping us up. And so there's a point of like, we have to see it for ourselves. So regardless of if you said it or not, by this point, doesn't matter. We have what we think is gonna happen. And I remember the moment we, like it got kind of real was we were at Corregidor and JP and I were walking around the base.

• 1:35:13Speaker 01

  And we went on the roof of this building and so we were like walking around, we see these sandbags and we're like, okay, we're like looking out in the city, no big deal. And so, you know, they used to have those, um, I forget what the, the structure is with the doorway on top of the buildings that were on there.

• 1:35:29Speaker 01

  You remember like you could walk through a door on a roof, like you wouldn't have to go down, you would walk through a door and that's where the stairs were.

• 1:35:34Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, okay.

• 1:35:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, that. So we walk in the door and right as we did it, we heard snap, snap. And we're like, what, did we just get shot at? And so then, like the 22 year olds that we were, we stepped back out. And then we wait and then we snap back in, snap, snap. Now it's a game. So we would jump out, jump back in and then we snap and then, then we were like, oh, they're acting, it's not like we're getting stray voltage. There is someone out there trying to shoot us. And so we're like jumping in and out of this door, like making the sniper shoot at us and ju- just idiots.

• 1:36:12Speaker 01

  That was the moment where I was like, okay, this may get a little real.

• 1:36:16Jocko Willink?

  So the tower story that I told, what was that from your perspective?

• 1:36:20Speaker 01

  Oh, man. And so, just like you said, like, we get there. Chris was a worker, right? Chris is like, hey, how can we get work? So him and Leif and you, you all talk to the base leadership and we're like, how can we help? Can we get up some snipers in the towers? They're like, totally. So Chris gets up there and maybe one of the other snipers, it could have just been Chris. It was like one or two kills. And so we're like, oh, cool. Target-rich environment. Get some. And it would be in our spare time. So we were doing what, basically the chapter one thing that night, you know, we're going out in the city. So I had like 10 hours to kill. So I go to the SCA and I'm like, hey, I'm gonna go up in the tower and I'm just gonna see if I can get some. And it's the tower looking down, they had, they called it Hell's Alley. It was looking down the worst alleyway.

• 1:37:06Speaker 01

  And that's where they had gotten a couple of guys. And I was like, hey, I'm gonna go check it out. So I get up in this tower and I

• 1:37:17Speaker 01

  I start talking to these guys. It's probably 30 feet. You climb a ladder to get up there. And I start talking to these two army guys. And just kind of like seeing what's going on. And I remember I asked them, like, hey, you ever get hit with RPGs up here? And they're like, nah, man, never. And they, they're like, he's like, it hits at the bottom of the tower. And I was like, oh, okay, cool, cool. And so I'm just like getting atmospherics. And as I'm talking to them, I'm looking down Hell's Alley. And this dude in black, and it's probably 300 or 400 yards, this dude in black steps out, crouches, crouches down and then runs out of the alley. I was like, that was weird. And then I step sideways. And right as I did that, snap, this bullet goes by. And I was like, oh, you're gonna shoot at me. And so now, like, I'm emotional about this because I was like, oh, you're gonna shoot at me?

• 1:38:00Speaker 01

  Okay, all right, let's, let's, let's do this. So I get on my sniper rifle and I am glass and means I'm just looking down my scope down this alleyway and I'm like, come back out. Because I am, I'm gonna arrange the meeting. And it was a classic, you know,

• 1:38:19Speaker 01

  look right, move left. And so as I'm on my gun, I start hearing that snaps, and I mean, hundreds of snaps all of a sudden. And it it took me like a second to like be like, oh, this is us. And I remember I didn't even have time to like bend over to get down. I just let my knees buckle. And so as I let my knees buckle, I look up and it was that moment the RPG hit blew my sniper rifle in half. And so I remember not even hitting the ground, falling back with like pieces of my sniper rifle are falling down on me.

• 1:38:53Speaker 01

  And I'm like, okay. And so the tower itself is probably, I don't know, five foot, five feet around. And how you get up is like this three foot wooden door that you have to lift up to get down to use the stairs. But you have to stand up to lift up that door. There's not enough room to lift it up. So we're essentially trapped. Like we can't get down. And this other, the other, one of the two army guys looks at me and he's like,

• 1:39:16Speaker 01

  just chaos yelling. He's like, hey, if we take another RPG, we're dead. Now a whole bunch of expletives in there, but like that's the gist of it. And so I'm like, okay, we have this crazy situation and I look at the other army guy. And his eyes are open, his mouth is open and he's just staring at the ceiling. And I'm like, oh no, he's dead. I was like, we're under attack. I've this, there's a dead guy up in this tower now. So I look at the other army guy and I'm like, hey, tell the other towers to start shooting. And so with no radio composure, he's like, show, we need you guys to show, we need you to shoot right now, shoot into the, you know, shoot the into the city at the bad guys or whatever.

• 1:39:56Speaker 01

  And the calmest dude I've ever heard gets on the radio and was like, um, we don't see anything. And I'm like, oh damn it. So they set the ambush up so no other tower could see. And they're not just going to shoot into the city that you can't do that. And so what rent in front of the city, I think was the Euphrates. And so I, I go.

• 1:40:15Jocko Willink?

  Oh, in front of the tower, there's a canal.

• 1:40:17Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:40:18Jocko Willink?

  It's a canal. It's not, it's not the Euphrates, but it's a canal. That's why that, that road was called Canal Street.

• 1:40:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:40:23Jocko Willink?

  And there's like a canal there. And it was like, one of those things would be like, uh, sometimes there'd be water in it, like swampy water at the bottom. But it would also, the reason I, I remember it being dry as well, because sometimes it would be on fire. So, but yeah, so you're you're overlooking Canal Street.

• 1:40:38Speaker 01

  You're right, because I'm confusing it with our base. So yes, I'm overlooking Canal Street. So I I'm like, hey, tell them to shoot into the the bank of the canal. Just start telling them to shoot their guns into the bank. So he's like, shoot in the back of the canal. Shoot into the back, you know, just like yelling. And finally, finally, I hear that sweet, sweet sound of American gunfire, that

• 1:40:56Speaker 01

  and all these pops.

• 1:41:00Speaker 01

  And so now the fighting stops. I'm like, OK, so now we can like, try to get out of here. So I look at this dude in the middle and he's still just like blank, nothing. And I'm like, damn it. So I feel like his body, I feel under his body armor, there's no blood. So I get on him and I'm like, I I do what I think a medic would do. And I slap him in the face as hard as I can. When I do that, he starts to blink and he kind of comes out of it. And I'm like, hey, like, we got to get the hell out of here. And so we open the door, I grab what like, I grabbed the sling of my sniper rifle. And we come down that ladder, like, it's like the Three Stooges, like you said, like, it's like we explode out the bottom.

• 1:41:39Speaker 01

  And I still, I remember you walking up to this day because you were kind of like excited. And you're like, hey, bro, did you get any? And I think I was like, hell, no. And I was like, held up my rifle and I saw your face change where you're like, oh, it was a little different up there. And I, and then the army guy holds up, I don't know if you remember this, he held up his, uh, like, M4 and the barrel was shaped like a C. And it was, it had been blown up too. And, uh,

• 1:42:07Speaker 01

  yeah, that was, that was crazy. And I, and I take nothing from those guys. Because I went back up there, probably an hour later. They were back up there.

• 1:42:16Jocko Willink?

  That's what they're doing, man.

• 1:42:17Speaker 01

  Check on him and say, hey, you know, great meeting you two. I would rather be in the city any day than be in this damn tower.

• 1:42:25Jocko Willink?

  There was, one of the things I remembered while you were telling that story is that the weapon that you got engaged with, or at least one of the weapons that you got engaged with was a Dishka heavy machine gun, which is, this is a very important part of the story because that's like a, it's the, it's the Russian equivalent of a 50 caliber machine gun. And that's an important part of the story because you're about to get engaged by a 50 caliber machine gun. From American forces, which again, I thought it was like, it was like 10 hours later, right? It was like, the next morning, we're inserting.

• 1:42:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, it was, yeah, it was like 12 hours. Yeah, it was right on then, because that was that late that afternoon. And we were in that crazy insane firefight before sunlight came up the next morning.

• 1:43:07Jocko Willink?

  Yep. So you, all that stuff happens, you, now we're all going out on this operation, which had been through a bunch of changes, it's a whole nother story, but now we're going out on this operation. And we've got, let's see, we got an element, a C2 element, we got an element with the Iraqis, we got two Overwatch positions, I think it's a total of four different groups we had out there. It kicks off pretty quick, you know, there's like engagements basically everywhere when we get out there. And in the midst of all this, your sniper element, which was BTF Tony running it, you guys got in your original spot, and you couldn't see the road that you were supposed to be covering. BTF Tony

• 1:43:52Jocko Willink?

  is like, the commander's intent is you guys make sure nobody reseeds IEDs on this road. He gets in there, looks at it, can't do it, can't see it, can't see the whole road. You guys are moving. I got the call like you're moving, right? Got like, hey, okay, they're moving. I'm like, no factor, don't really think too much about it, because there should be no friendly forces even close to you guys at this point. According to all the planning, no one, no friendly forces should be near you. And so, so I'm not worried about like even having to de-conflict. Well, it turns out, it turns out, one of the Iraqi elements had decided and didn't tell anybody that they were going to push all the way down to like, the limits of the entire clearance, because this is a big clearance operation

• 1:44:37Jocko Willink?

  that was going to happen. They were going to push down to the limits of that clearance, and they were going to set up their own Overwatch position. Again, this was not part of any plan. You know, if they would have briefed it, it would have been great, but they didn't. So they just randomly do this. And a Marine, thank God, a Marine goes with them, like he, they start running down the street to go set up this, their own perimeter. And a Marine goes with them. And it just so happens that the building that they decide to take is the building that you guys are in. And all this is happening, you know, all this is happening at the same time. Meanwhile, like we're getting shot at.

• 1:45:18Jocko Willink?

  Uh JP and his elements getting shot at like everyone's getting shot at everyone's engagements everywhere. And then, uh, what happens is this Iraqi friendly Iraqi element. You guys are, you guys are just getting into that building. You're just starting to get set up, just assessing it. And as that's happening, by the way, you have Iraqi soldiers with you. Do you guys have army guys with you?

• 1:45:43Speaker 01

  We had one.

• 1:45:43Jocko Willink?

  One army guy with you and, and then you guys, and as you guys are setting up. You guys had zip tied the freaking perimeter, which was like, what we would do is zip tie the entryways in there. So if someone's getting in, it's going to make noise. You guys had done that and one of our guys is now down like checking security and he sees the freaking thing is the doors open. And then he sees a guy with an AK moving across the courtyard and shoots him. Well, that was a friend, one of these friendly Iraqi rogue element soldiers that had gone out there and was going to set a perimeter. Now he gets shot. Now you guys think you're under attack.

• 1:46:23Jocko Willink?

  And then you guys get into a firefight with this element of Iraqi soldiers.

• 1:46:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:46:28Jocko Willink?

  And that's, I'm just trying to set the stage for now, what your perspective is, you're on the freaking rooftop.

• 1:46:35Speaker 01

  So yeah, we, we're on the rooftop. It was me and Johnny Kim and Johnny went down to the radio guy to get something. And I stayed up there. And so Johnny and I, and I remember because we're trying to, we started to take some like random pot shots. We knew from the city, like, so now we're kind of like getting engaged by bad guys. So we knew that. So we're trying to set up our.

• 1:46:56Jocko Willink?

  And it's no big deal. Like everyone, you're, you're, when you're going out in the city, you're going to get shot at. So it's not like, hey, we're getting shot at, emergency. No, it's like, hey, we're getting shot at.

• 1:47:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:04Jocko Willink?

  Like I'm literally registering like, you know, like, hey, we're getting, we're in a contact Roger. That's kind of the extent of it.

• 1:47:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. And we're just gauging it. We're like, hey, it's not super close. Now that I'm very aware of snaps are like, like, I'm like, I know what close fire is. So not worried at all. And so we're looking at how we're going to set up our sniper holes that we shoot out of. And so Johnny goes down. And right as he goes down, this element comes in and I see them and I saw them for seconds before the shot was taken. And I actually stood up because I was like, oh, what are they doing here? And I was going to say, I was going to yell down to what they were doing here. And right as I'm like, you know, I take a breath to say something firefight breaks out grenade is dropped into the courtyard and then I just drop, you know, I just like get down and then it's this crazy firefight. Nobody knows I'm there yet. So it's good for

• 1:47:52Speaker 01

  me. So I get on my sniper rifle. I'm like, okay, I'm like, you know, hey, bad guys. We got word bad guys are dressing up like the, uh, the Jundis, like the Iraqi military. So

• 1:48:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, they, they had helmets. They had body armor. They had US like chocolate chip camis, which was the exact same uniform. We had pictures like it's, we would show, I remember showing the platoon, like here's captured enemy uniforms. It's chocolate chip camis. It's body armor. It's helmets. They have everything. And by the way, the, the friendly Iraqis, they're carrying RPGs and AK-47s. Like that's, it's every, it can be very, it's very, very confusing. Oh, and one more thing. It is, it is just like in the morning, night vision isn't quite good, but you don't, you can't see anything. It's like the worst possible time of day where night vision, you don't really have an advantage, but without night

• 1:48:46Jocko Willink?

  vision, you can't really see. So you're just like switching back and forth, like just real quick as this is happening.

• 1:48:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I just, I just see dudes wearing these colors and the firefight kicks off and I'm like, oh, I'm like, I can't believe I was, I'm glad nobody shot me standing. So I drop, there's a heavy gunner running down the street. And so I shoot him and I put one in his chest and, um, I'm wearing body armor. He may have made it. I don't know. I think he did. And right at the moment, they were like, oh, there's a sniper on the roof. And then that was.

• 1:49:18Jocko Willink?

  So hold on. So as that initial firefight broke out, and now it's like a, a, a more significant firefight. So now I'm in a Humvee with the company commander. And now like I get a call, I hear your radio man calling like, hey, we're under attack, something along those lines. And they wanted QRF. So QRF gets launched. I look at the company commander going, hey dude, those are my boys. Go. And he's like Roger. So the QRF beats us there by a little bit. And when they get there. The element with the one marine, so the rogue element had now taken cover in a house next, next door, across the street, actually it wasn't next door, it was across the street.

• 1:50:03Jocko Willink?

  The QRF comes down with a hump with, I don't know what it was, two, three Humvees, maybe four Humvees, parks on the corner and starts dumping 50 cal into the building where you are. And so as, as I'm pulling up, so anyways, let me, I've, you've told me this story before, but how's it, what are you thinking when now you're getting lit up with 50 caliber machine gun from 35 yards away?

• 1:50:36Speaker 01

  And I mean, at the time, like I had no idea, cause now I'm down, I got away from the sniper hole because that is taking effective rounds coming through it and the wall is starting to degrade. There are pieces, if I remember the wall right now, cause it's blowing out the backside. And I remember the first bullet that came through the wall, like I'm down, I'm doing, and then to my right side, this bullet blasts through and I was like, oh no. And so I get on my radio to tell Tony, I'm like, hey, Tony, like I, I think I told him, like you need to call the QRF, like what I'm seeing up here, I'm not going to be around much longer. And so I was like, call the QR, and right as I'm talking to Tony, I, one of those rounds blows through the building and hits me in the face.

• 1:51:19Speaker 01

  And the feeling was like getting punched, like it was like somebody punched me right in like the, right below my eye, right in the cheekbone. And so I take it and I'm like, oh, and I was like, you know what, I'm not dealing with this right now. So I actually don't touch it. And so I'm still talking to Tony and then this thing is on fire. And so I reach into my cheek, cause it hit, hit the bone and kind of slid down a little bit. And I reach into my cheek and I pull this 50 cal round out. And I'll regret this till the day I die, threw it, you know, in that chaos, if I would have put it in my pocket. And so I throw it and again, I don't know what round it is, right? That's not the time for forensics. So I called Tony and I'm like, hey, I'm hit.

• 1:51:59Speaker 01

  And I'm no composure, I'm sure I sound absolutely terrified, cause Rex later, the comms guy made fun of me for how I sounded on the radio, where I'm like, I'm hit, I'm hit, you know?

• 1:52:11Speaker 01

  And so then I grabbed, Johnny still had his rucksack up top and I had my rucksack and I moved them both in front of me to where that, cause I knew where most of the fire was coming, so I could have some standoff. And I was just trying to survive at this point. And now they're like, hey, the stairs to get down were in the front where I'm getting all the, the, we're getting all the fire from. So I'm like trapped. I'm effectively trapped and I am running all the scenarios to get down to the second floor. Like, how much of explosives do I have in my bag? Can I blow a hole in the roof? Apparently at the bottom, they're doing the same. They're like, how do we get them down here? Can we blow a hole in the roof? Like, cause I don't have my, my time is dwindling because that wall is going away.

• 1:52:48Jocko Willink?

  And just FYI, they did call the heavy, they, so they called now the heavy QRF. So the first QRF that came in, which was Humvees, was the, was the light QRF. And then they call in the heavy QRF. And actually, that's, correct my story. When the light QRF went in, I was like Roger. And when they called the heavy QRF, that's when I told the company commander, I was like, hey, let's go with them. Like follow them in. And the company commander was like, cool. That's why the, cause when the, when the Humvee was shooting, we, we showed up, we didn't see that. We, when we showed up, we saw the tail end of that.

• 1:53:28Jocko Willink?

  And what I saw, so now the heavy QRF is coming, which is a section of tanks. So two M1 Abrams tanks are rolling. And that's what I rolled in behind these tanks. Okay. So.

• 1:53:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, that's essentially what it was. Cause I didn't know anything. Like, I remember I was on the, the, the roof and there was a super low flyover by an F-18. And in my delusional world at the time of not knowing anything that's going on, I'm like, oh, good. They've called somebody that's going to drop bombs on somebody and stop this chaos. And I honestly think it was them setting up to drop our house.

• 1:54:03Jocko Willink?

  And so. Yeah. And actually the SEA, Z was like, we can't drop. Like we don't know exactly where our guys are. Don't drop. So awesome call for him. You know, he's like, we cannot drop it. I think we had, you know, with the JTAC or we didn't have the JTAC, but whoever was controlling the air, he's like, can't drop right now. Yes, definitely do not drop. Cause we don't know exactly where our guys are. Because, you know, looking back and we changed this protocol, it was changed like, if you're going to move somewhere, tell us where you're going to move. And so we know where you're going to be. Because it was at the time, prior to this, it was, hey, we're going to move. We'll tell you where we are. Once we get there. Cause then you're confirmed. Hey, this is where we're going. Okay. Now we know where you are. Otherwise it could get confusing. Well, we figured that one out. So.

• 1:54:49Jocko Willink?

  So now you get lit up with the 50 cal. That's when I hear the call for the heavy QRF. And now I'm like, okay, go, because these are my guys. Now they're free. Need the heavy QRF. Get me in there with the, to find out what the hell is going on and help them do whatever I can. And at least be able to assess what's going on.

• 1:55:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that, and that was the moment where, and I'm upset I didn't do this. So you remember we carried star clusters, red star clusters where we'd blow up with first for troops in contact. I never did it. And it's, I didn't even like occur to me. And because you know, like you're new.

• 1:55:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. The red star cluster was actually not troops in contact. It's like we're friendlies.

• 1:55:27Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:55:29Jocko Willink?

  Like we're friendly.

• 1:55:30Speaker 01

  And, and, and I didn't, and if I would have known, but I didn't. And I was like, I had it up there and I could have just, you know, popped that. Cause I mean, thank God that tank, because it'd be over. It'd be over for all of us. Those flache rounds or whatever they like, it done. And so I remember all of a sudden I saw the red smoke come up. And I was like, oh, that's weird. And then that's when, you know, they're like, all the firing like stopped. It wasn't slow like the last firefight. It was like done. And I was like, okay. And then I like, Matt, and it wasn't over the radio. Now I was like, Matt, are you alive? And Johnny comes scrambling up to the roof, like, like just panic scramble. And he's like, Matt, and it's funny.

• 1:56:11Speaker 01

  He didn't turn the corner, which is good to him. Cause by this point during the firefight, I'd accepted like, hey, I'm dead. And so my, my, my sniper rifle got knocked down. I had my sidearm out and I remember I made the mental distinction where I was like, I'm going to kill three people. And that's the number. And if I can kill three people, I win. And so I was like, I was looking at the stairs and like the first three bad guys I'm going to kill, then they're going to overwhelm me. I'll be dead. And so I had my hand out and I'm like, this is it. I'm coming home. And Johnny didn't turn the corner. He's like, Matt, Matt, I'm coming up. I was like, okay. And he comes up and I'm bleeding and he's like, are you okay? And so this is like way over exaggerated, right? The firefight's over. And so I'm on the roof. And so he gets to me. He's like, oh, you can't. He's like, let's get down. And he grabs his ruck. I grabbed my ruck.

• 1:56:57Speaker 01

  My Rhodesian, my vest was in like the other side of the roof. It was still like 20 feet away. And it was this over exaggerated like, I gotta grab my gear. And Johnny's like, leave it. And I'm like, no, there's crypto and comms in it. Like, if you were on the street, you're like, what are these dudes freaking out about? It's just like highly hyped over like dramatic scene. And I run back and I grab the gear. Still proud of that. In, in my world, I got that crypto. And we come down and we go through the house. And I remember I walked through the house and I go to where the family is. And I just kind of look in on them. And I'll remember they were more worried about me. So I'm like blood's all over my uniform.

• 1:57:39Speaker 01

  My face is covered in blood because I'm, I'm, you know, got my face pressed against the ground and they're like, they keep pointing. They're like, okay. And I'm like, yeah, I'm, I'm cool. And the, the most surreal thing was we got out of the building and I saw you. And I was like, this is weird. And I had no idea like, it was, and I remember now that 50 cal gunner wouldn't look at me. And I remember asking him, I'm like, hey, bro, was there a guy in that corner that's dead? Cause I was like, did I get him? And he wouldn't even look at me. Like, he was like,

• 1:58:11Jocko Willink?

  So when, when I, we, we get on that, it was Farouk way. I'm pretty sure is a long road. And we're hauling ass and we, the tanks are out ahead of us, but we're catching them because we're going faster. And then I see red smoke. I think, I don't know who in the element.

• 1:58:29Speaker 01

  It's Tony.

• 1:58:30Jocko Willink?

  He threw, so Tony, BTF Tony threw red smoke, which is freaking amazing. Cause as I'm looking, I see the, the, I see the red smoke and I was like, okay. And I knew you guys were close. And I see the turret of the tank is turning towards that building. And it just turns and it stops and it's like sitting there. And now I'm there, I get out and I go, uh, I, I, I think it was the,

• 1:59:01Jocko Willink?

  I think it was the uh, the marine and I'm like, hey, what happened? And he's like, we were entering that building. There's moos in there. So he was like, there's moos in there. Who he was talking about was you guys. He was like, we're in that building. There's moos in there. One guy got shot in the courtyard. And I was like, Roger, and I knew, I just had like the, the, the intuition. I was like, here, I looked and I was like, looking at the building where you guys were planning to be. And I was looking at where this building was and I knew that you moved. And I was like, this does not make sense. And as I walked over and I was like, on me and Z was like, cool. And so I'm just gonna go and those, that marine looked at me like I was totally insane. Cause like, I'm gonna go clear it with my SEA. That's what's about to go down.

• 1:59:47Jocko Willink?

  And so I'm walking over to, I got, I got my gun up and I'm just like, walking over to clear the building. If there's moos in there, cool, we'll kill them. And if not, which I didn't think there was. And as I'm walking up, the doors cracked open. And I see that there's a zip tie on the ground. And I was like, it, I just instantly, like, you know, you're just putting things together. I kicked the door open and there's Tony. And he looked at me and he's like, he's like, dude.

• 2:00:12Jocko Willink?

  And, and I'm like, hey, bro. And he looks at me, he goes, and I just looked at him. I said, it was a blue on blue. And he looked at me like, like I was crazy. Like, there's no way. And I was like, hey, get the boys. Cause now we had Kazivac there. And I was like, hey, get the boys loaded up. And he, the BTF Tony salute. He's like, I go get the boys load up, get out of here. And, uh, and he's like, Roger, I'm staying. And I was like, cool. So he loaded you guys up and he just stayed with me, uh, cause he wasn't gonna leave. But dude, you guys looked fucking horrified. It was, I felt, I was like, oh my God. I mean, you know, you guys just got lit up at close range with like a hundred and fifty rounds of 50 cal's freaking awful.

• 2:00:58Jocko Willink?

  I walk, now I walk back across the street. I go upstairs and there's the, uh, there's the company commander. And he just looks at me and I'm like, hey, it was a blue on blue. Those were my guys in there. He was like, what the fuck? And I go, yep. I'm like, check. Uh, we got it secured, whatever. And we kind of carried on. And then I went, you know, as soon as we, we got done with that portion of the clearance, I went back, went into battalion commander.

• 2:01:25Jocko Willink?

  And there was still a lot of confusion and I walked up and he was like, what happened? I was like, and I, I like was the only person that like knew what had happened, you know? I was like, here's what happened. Here's where my guys moved. Here's where these Iraqis, I don't know why they were down there, but here's where they were. They entered that building and this was a blue on blue. And he was like, Roger that. It like made, you know, he understood what had happened. And another thing that I didn't really understand at the time was like, there was blue on blues happening. There was blue on blue incidents happening. Maybe not casualties from blue on blue, but like in a Ramadi, like friendly forces were getting shot at by friendly forces. He's fire. Hey, no, that's us. Hey, stop what you're doing. Hey, no, that's you know, like that stuff was happening. You have to like

• 2:02:07Jocko Willink?

  the deconfliction was real time and it was all the time. But um, he was like, Roger that. And then he looked at myself in the company and he was like, all right, let's make sure that doesn't happen again. We're rolling out on the next mission in like 40 minutes. I was like, Roger. And that's what we did. Um, damn. I remember you telling me like you 100% thought you were gonna die.

• 2:02:33Speaker 01

  That was it. Yeah. Like, that was like the first time in my life. And it happened a couple of times in Ramadi where I was like, okay, was it like, and I'm fine. Like I made my peace and I made like, what was the price? And that was that was like I said, I was 100% gonna die and I chosen three people were gonna come. And that's even, I always carried like when we were in Ramadi, I carried two grenades and I would never throw one. Because if it ever got that bad, that one was for us.

• 2:03:04Jocko Willink?

  Now, what I, the other thing I remember is that, like you said, so now you get, you get to Charlie Med, you have to get stitched up and shit. By the time you're coming back, were you a little morphined up?

• 2:03:16Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. I was, I was gone.

• 2:03:18Jocko Willink?

  But you. You didn't, you didn't compute, like you still didn't put together that that was friendly forces. Like you got in that uh 113 in that Kazakov vehicle thinking like we just had a big gunfight with the moog. And by the time I was talking to you, you were like, wait, what? Like, that was, that was friendly Iraqis? What were they doing there? How did that happen? And so it sucked, fucking sucked.

• 2:03:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was, and I mean, I got, yeah, when I got to Charlie Med, and that didn't help. I didn't know where I was. We, you know, I'm 22, like, I don't really get where all the bases are, what their names are yet. And so I kept remembering, I kept remembering saying what base I was from. No one knew it. Apparently that was our word for it. And so I'm like, hey, I'm, I'm connected here. And they're like, yeah, so I, I don't know how to get a hold of anybody. Like, so I'm on this base and I'm like, super high on morphine. And because I remember I was on the, um, I was on the bed and I got there and so I'm like pretty witty and high and it was full of nurses. And I had, uh, I had like three or four nurses around my thing.

• 2:04:24Speaker 01

  And I was like, hey, I was, uh, I was pretty good looking before this happened. So let's just make sure we keep, you know, and I'm like joking. I was like, um, and so then like the leader nurse comes and runs them all off and then, uh,

• 2:04:34Jocko Willink?

  Get away from this guy before there's an incident.

• 2:04:37Speaker 01

  And then like one of the nurses goes and gets a camera because he, I had a really good doc. He does internally, does external stitches. Cause um, he was just cool and I had to get x-rays. The reason I went as I wasn't gonna go, but I asked our corpsman. Cause I was like, I thought it was gonna, we were still gonna do this thing. And I was like, oh no, I don't want to miss this. And he was like, and they're like, what do you want to do? And I look at the corpsman and I'm like, what do you think, bro? I'm like, I'll, I'll default to you. And he's like, I want to see if your cheek's fractured. That's my big thing. And so I was like, okay, I'll go. And so I go, I get stitched up and like the nurses bring me their camera over and like, show me what it looks like. I was like, that's pretty cool. And, and then, um, I, there's nowhere for me to go. Like I get done getting stitched up. And I was like, I'm pretty tired. Can I get sleep somewhere? And so they just like,

• 2:05:21Speaker 01

  There was like a high bay next to the medical thing and I understand the stress for like back at operations because now I'm gone. I'm like in the system. No one knows where I am and our um, it was our ops chief was pissed because he was like, he thought I was like out rogue trying to get back to the Corrigidor element. And so I sleep for like six hours and then I wake up and I remember I'm in like these loner camis from the army and I'm like, like I'm standing outside Charlie Med and I'm super lost. Like we're in this wartime environment and I'm like, I don't know what my next move is because I don't know what our base is called apparently. No one knows where the seals are. Like when I say those key words, so I'm lost. And all of a sudden this

• 2:06:03Speaker 01

  Hilux comes and like the movies like it like drives by about 10 feet and it's like all brakes, skids, backs up and it's like Leif and those guys and they're like Matt. Literally just like found me. And I get in and I'm like, you know, I'm telling them the story and Leif's like it was blue on blue and I, and I didn't, I kept telling them and I was like, no, no, I was telling them and Leif said it. He told me later. He's like, it was like three or four times where he was like, it was a blue on blue and finally it like clicked and I stopped and I was like, wait, what? And he was like, yeah, that whole thing. That was a blue on blue. And I was like, I was like, are you kidding me? Pissed, pissed. And not like any, but just like the whole thing. And so, yeah, that, that sucked.

• 2:06:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it was fucking horrible. Um, we obviously do a massive debrief. We put SOPs in place to prevent that shit from happening again. Um, and then we start getting back to work, you know, and the work was extensive. Uh, going out, putting in, the combat outpost kind of became a massive thing. Um, God, I was like, you had General McFarland on here and even like hearing it and it seemed like there was so much going on. The fact that we put in one of those and we, I mean, the 118D, everyone together, but we, the fact that we put in one of those combat

• 2:07:28Jocko Willink?

  outposts like every three to five days for like weeks on end is freaking crazy. It's, it's so crazy to think back because the planning behind each one of those things was so extensive and crazy that the fact that we were just like get back and just go do it again and then get back and then go do it again and then get back and go do it again. It was freaking. Wild.

• 2:07:53Jocko Willink?

  Um, you're out. Doing these, these operations. What was your, like, from your focus, you're a sniper. Uh, what was you, what were you thinking about during these operations?

• 2:08:08Speaker 01

  Honestly, I was, it was like, for a sniper, it's like being a kid in a candy store. Because I'm out and I am just looking for bad, like, and you're gonna see somebody. And so it was. You're just on all the time. And of course, you know, we're out with Chris Kyle. So you take the spot that he doesn't want. So.

• 2:08:27Jocko Willink?

  What's, what does his spot look like? And what does your spot look like?

• 2:08:30Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. So Chris, Chris is a long axis, you know, miles of street, like three or four intersections. And then you're like, I got 300 yards of alley. And so I gotta really hope somebody wants somebody in that alley space. And sometimes they did, but like, and, uh, and then we also learned as snipers, like, times a day, right? Like, after, call the prayer in the morning, it would start to heat up. That's when the bad guys would come out. Then as soon as it got hot, they would all disappear until the evening time when it was like, nice again. And then they would all come back out, fight for a few hours, and then they disappear for the night. So we started to just learn when to be on the gun. And so those were the times that we would try to get on and glass. So just watch, trying to find bad guys. And I mean,

• 2:09:15Speaker 01

  it was good. It was fun. Like, I loved it. Now, it's 130 degrees in some of those buildings. So you're like, on the gun, you're just, your eyes are on fire from sweat. But you're like, I don't want to miss anything. Cause I only got like, there's another hour of bad guy time. And if they go on any other street than Chris is, it's mine.

• 2:09:36Jocko Willink?

  You know, that was one thing that I didn't really think too much about it while we were there. But clearly, the enemy was, the enemy didn't go out very much at night. Because Americans have night vision and they know that. And so, and there's no, and the civilian populace went out very little at night. And so if there was someone, a bad guy out at night, they were gonna get killed because it was just obvious that they were a bad guy at night on patrol with a weapon, like they're gonna get shot. So they didn't do that. There was no, they used the civilian populace as camouflage during the day. They'd get up, walk around. You know, they're, they're hiding their weapons and they made.

• 2:10:17Jocko Willink?

  Transitions too, and like how they attacked, but I didn't really think about it too much. The daytime stuff, like, oh my gosh, daytime stuff, we're doing daytime stuff. You, there's two big, major components. Number one, the bad guys would, the bad guys would come out in the daytime. Number one. Number two, we were working with Iraqi forces and Iraqi forces don't have night vision. And Iraqi forces, in some cases, didn't even have flashlights. So you couldn't go and do a big clearance operation with Iraqi forces at night because it would be freaking like the worst, the worst idea ever. So we, so you know, we do these big clearance operations.

• 2:11:00Jocko Willink?

  And if you're going to take a company of Iraqi soldiers and they're going to clear a couple of blocks of the city. They can't do it at night. They have to do it at day. We're in charge of training and fighting with the Iraqi soldiers. We have to go out in the day. I didn't think of like, oh my gosh, uh, this is a terrible thing. No, it was like, this is just what we have to do. It's kind of like the guys in Vietnam, the guys in Vietnam did for the SEALs in Vietnam. They, sure, they'd go out in the nighttime, but if daytime requirement, they'd go get some in the daytime. I didn't think too much about, what did you, were you even, was that like a thing in your head?

• 2:11:34Speaker 01

  No, and at the time, like, cause I remember we got back, I heard people like, oh, you operated in the daytime. That's crazy. And at the time, I remember thinking like, that's when we got, cause if you only went out at night, you maybe were going to get bad guys based on the intel you got. But if you didn't have that intel, they were just going to run around. So in the daytime, like, we caught them. Like, that's where they were. And then if, and they always wanted to get some, so you were happy to give it. Like, oh, you want to fight? Cool. We're here. We're ready.

• 2:12:01Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. It was another thing. It was interesting when I had General McFarland on us. I didn't know this at the time, but he was getting questioned about like, hey, you've got all these, you're killing all these enemy. How is that even happening? And he's like, come and look, come and watch. And that's the same thing I would getting like, you know, our senior leadership would be like, hey, wait, you killed nine guys in the past three days. It's like, well, yeah, there's a bunch of bad guys here. There's a bunch of bad guys and they are attacking coalition forces. And so when we set up an Overwatch position. And they come to attack, they're gonna die. That's what's happening. So I think it was a little, such a little micro environment of that, that intense fighting and the aggressiveness from

• 2:12:45Jocko Willink?

  the insurgents to, like you said, like they wanted to bring it. And so when they bring it, they're gonna, they're gonna, they're gonna get some.

• 2:12:56Jocko Willink?

  Uh, what happened? This is one story that Leif wrote about in the book. Uh, what happened when, when the time you fell through the roof?

• 2:13:02Speaker 01

  Oh, man.

• 2:13:05Speaker 01

  So I remember like, you know, there's times where you're like, you don't remember why you remember it so well, but I remember that night really well. So we were in that building. We'd been doing sniper overwatch. Um, and during one of the firefights, apparently somebody got really close and put an ID in front of the front door. And we had rock star EOD guys. Um, and so they checked, thank God, like somebody looked down and checked.

• 2:13:29Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, for sure.

• 2:13:31Speaker 01

  And, um, there's like, hey, there's an ID here. And so they do everything to try to like, make it inert. And I remember Chris and I sitting in a room because we're both snipers in this room and like, they're gonna blow this ID. We don't know how big it is. So we like cover ourselves in those like, those like cushion pads that are like.

• 2:13:47Jocko Willink?

  Those will help.

• 2:13:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. And I remember Chris kind of looked at me and he's like, you ever get that? He's like, I just got that feeling. You know, when you're like six and you're like, you're kind of scared. And I was like, it's all right. Cause if it goes south, we won't feel it anyway. We so we're just joking about it. And so they blow it up. And we still can't go out because they're like, hey, we don't really know if it's inert. Or I know we've talked about it where like, they would do one, but then there'd be like a cluster. And so it was like, oh yeah, you think you got one. There's five more. So we're, we're trying to work this problem and me and one of the other one platooners, we go downstairs and I'm, I look at this wall and I'm like, I think this wall will go into the roof of that building right over there. And so we go up, we tell the

• 2:14:32Speaker 01

  head shed and they come down and we bring sledgehammers with us this time and we sledge that wall and lo and behold. Gets us onto that other roof. And so we're like, cool, we're gonna escape. And so, you know, we, we figure out how to get down and there's a door that goes down to, and I remember it was 20th Street. And we were doing everything on earth. We couldn't, we, we did not want to go down to 20th Street. So we're like,

• 2:14:55Jocko Willink?

  20th Street was super gnarly.

• 2:14:57Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:14:57Jocko Willink?

  Super gnarly.

• 2:14:58Speaker 01

  And so we're like, hey, if we go on this roof, to this roof, to this roof, we'll get to a street that's not 20th Street. So we get onto the roof and so we're clearing out, right? So we're gonna clear the buildings down. And so one of the J O's, I remember, moves up to the door and he waits to open it. And so then I go to take a position in front of the door. And there was a blue tarp with dust on it. And one of them saw, cause I remember later, he's like, didn't you see that? And I was like, do you think I saw that? Cause if I saw that, I wouldn't have stepped on it. And so what happened was I didn't step on the blue tarp. But I took a step to get in front of the door and my heel like leaned back and it, and I probably would have been able to stand, but I was wearing a ruck.

• 2:15:39Speaker 01

  I had my sniper rifle on my back and all of that. And it just, the weight of it, I started to tip and one of the J O's reaches out to grab me. And I remember he like misses and I fall and I hit that, the ground, just like my arms and try to catch myself. And basically that like inverted me to my back. And then I fell like 20 feet onto my back. And I had my M4 in my hand and I still have, uh, the mag from that M4 to this day. And it's like in half, like it's like crumpled in half. And it's cause my hand hit, I, I broke open my elbow and I'm on 20th Street. And I remember looking up and the guy's looking down at me and I'm like winds knocked out of me, ton of pain. And I was like, and I remember Leif

• 2:16:22Speaker 01

  wouldn't stop talking on the radio. And he, cause he, cause he's like, what happened? And they're like, Matt fell through. And he's like, Matt, radio check, Matt, are you okay? And he just wouldn't stop talking. And I remember being so irritated. I go, I just need a minute. I just needed to compose myself for a second. Cause now I'm like on 20th street and I'm just hoping like a band of roving terrorists don't come in just like take me off into the darkness and get my head cut off on the internet.

• 2:16:48Jocko Willink?

  And by the way, there's also the pressure of Nick Kush, who's been on the podcast, the EOD guy, they had put a charge on this freaking IED that was out front. So all this is under the pressure of time as well.

• 2:16:59Speaker 01

  Oh yeah. And we're all very aware. And so they're like, hey, we're gonna, so they're gonna breach the door to me. So the door that they couldn't get to me was locked from the outside. It's like a padlock in a metal door. You would think it was the vault from Fort Knox because they are beating the hell out of this door with a sledgehammer. And now I'm getting kind of fed up because I'm like, this is really loud and I'm laying on 20th street. And if somebody comes to like get me, there's nothing I can do. Like my gun's kind of ineffective right now. You guys are on the inside of that door. So I'm like, hey, pass me the bolt cutters. And I had one arm and I kind of like had to do like this hip arm thing where I cut the lock. And then they got out, they gave it to me and um, yeah, one of the new guys does me a solid, grabs my sniper rifle because it's like 20 pounds and then

• 2:17:45Speaker 01

  we go back to uh, we go back to the fob.

• 2:17:50Jocko Willink?

  Good freaking times. Um, and then you were, you know, we're doing those overwatch, we're also doing DAs, you know, we'd also, we didn't do a ton of DAs. We probably only did like, I think we probably like 30 or 40 DAs. But um, we're doing them. You were still doing your breaching duties. And we definitely had some long discussions about breaching because there was rules that were coming out, rules of engagement that were coming out about breaching. That hey, because it had been civilian casualties because of breaching and so there was a lot of pressure of like, hey, don't explosively breach. If you have to explosively breach, you know, minimize the charge as much as you can. You were kind of in the midst of

• 2:18:33Jocko Willink?

  of all that, you know, hearing it from both sides. The thing with explosively breaching Echo Charles is If there's bad guys in there explosively, explosive breach gives you a huge advantage because it rocks their world and you, as opposed to you trying to manually get through a door, which is you're hitting it with a sledgehammer and they're setting up that whole time. So it really is radically better if there's bad guys to do an explosive breach. But if there's civilians on the other side of that breach, now you've got collateral damage and it's terrible on a bunch of different fronts. So we, we went, you know, we, we did all kinds of different things there from doing manual breaches to doing callouts to doing explosive

• 2:19:18Jocko Willink?

  breaches when we had to, the whole nine yards. Um, so you were in the middle of that whole debate, I would say.

• 2:19:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I mean, I give you credit. You would, uh, you would tell us, you're like, hey, and I remember this when I'd be breacher, you're like, hey, if you don't need to explosive breach or you can cut down your breach, go feel free, go ahead to do that. And then you would ask me, you'd say, Matt, what are you using tonight? And then I would let you know, I'm using the most explosives that I was able to use on a door. And what, I'll give you credit is you never stopped me, but you said, don't mess up. And I knew, and I knew if I made a mistake, I was going to pay the man. But every single time, cause I, for me, I was looking at like, hey, the, the transition, right? The transition in any mission is the most dangerous point of a mission. And as we're going from outside to inside, I was like, I will not let that

• 2:20:11Speaker 01

  maybe be my fault. But yeah, you, I remember, I remember, and I could remember your face. You'd look at me and I would let you know what I was going to use and you just put your head down. You're like, all right, all right. And I remember being like this, this is one of those times where you're not allowed to make a mistake.

• 2:20:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Well, I have to trust you guys that you're going to do what's right. And if it's not, if you don't need to breach, and there was plenty of times where you guys wouldn't breach because there's another way to enter. But you know, I looked at it, I guess similar to you is like, if we're gonna have to breach, we have to breach for a reason. So let's make it, let's make it do what it's supposed to do. And there was times where we like, uh, the hostage rescue mission. It was like, hey, make sure your breach. Is gonna knock these guys like knock them out of uh out of ability, you know? So I remember massive breaches for that thing. And it's the same thing with like from the position of being a sniper.

• 2:21:05Jocko Willink?

  Like you guys have to make the decision on who to engage. And you know, I always would tell you guys, the rules of engagement are you better make damn sure that the person you're gonna kill is bad. Because if we kill like, there's normal people out there in the city. There's doctors, there's teachers, there's imams that are the religious leaders in those areas. If you kill one, if we kill one of those people, like it's freaking game over. Like we might as well just pack up and go home because that is the end of us being able to do this type of operation. So you know, that's another time where it's like you guys, you have to, you, you have to make the call.

• 2:21:48Speaker 01

  And we, and we got surgical with it after a while, like we, I remember we started using a lot of cutting charges and, and the nice thing is what we always, what I always liked is you could generally like gauge what was on where the door was and what rooms were in. And that was way, like I would play a game. If it was a hallway, I would see if I could get the door to the back of the hallway. And then that, cause then that got the door out of our way. And then it was just a, uh, you know, cause you, you're nerding it up as a breach. You're like, all right, how did it flip? How did it roll? Did I do it right? And it's like a big game.

• 2:22:19Speaker 01

  But then there was other times where like we would go up and I would check the door. If it was unlocked, we'd just walk in. And that was like just a super cool feeling of like standing there, somebody's asleep and then you just wake them up and they're like, what is going on right now? And you're like, wake up.

• 2:22:33Jocko Willink?

  Wakey, wakey.

• 2:22:37Jocko Willink?

  Would you walk in point?

• 2:22:39Speaker 01

  I did, so I.

• 2:22:40Jocko Willink?

  Cause usually Chris walked point for you guys.

• 2:22:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so I did, for some reason there, I, I did both. I was most of the time rear security, but then if our elements flipped or there was a sometimes we, we would be walking and snipers would have to be like doing overwatch. And so if Chris was gonna be the sniper, I would be point.

• 2:22:59Speaker 01

  And yeah, and point, point was good. I remember, uh, this one time, we, uh, I had to, I had to walk point. And I remember when you look, when you're walking point, you're looking at these like, kinda like these, these brown gray maps. And so you're like counting blocks in the city and you're like looking at what buildings look like. And then when you get there, it's not the same.

• 2:23:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, they don't look that way.

• 2:23:20Speaker 01

  Buildings are gone, or like they're, they're just, it's wildly different. I remember one time, I was walking point and, um, I got completely lost. I had no idea where I was. Nobody knew that. And so I was walking and I remember I started walking fast. Because Leif was over the radio and he's like, Matt, slow down. And I was like, okay. And I'm walking fast because we had a timeline to me.

• 2:23:42Jocko Willink?

  Trying to find a landmark or?

• 2:23:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm trying to find landmarks, but I'm trying to buy myself time. If I do end up getting lost, I can get to where I need to be. Once I hit something and the landmark was the canal. And there was one bridge on that canal we had to hit and it was not around anything else. And I, so I'm like, I'm in the, the, the very like dense part of the city. So I'm, I have to count blocks. But they weren't the same. And so I quickly realized like, oh no, I'm off. And so I'm kind of just like gauging where I think I should be. And I know in my mind, I'm like, nope, no idea. No, I, we could be anywhere in Ramadi right now. I have no clue. And of course it's like super bad area. And I remember I broke like the, the edge of this house. I got right past the edge of this house.

• 2:24:27Speaker 01

  And there was the bridge. And I remember the EOD guy was up there with me. He's like, oh, you hit it. And I was like, bro, of course I hit it.

• 2:24:35Speaker 01

  Do you like, I wasn't about to be like, I was sweating. Cause when I got past that house, it was like that come to Jesus moment. Or either there's gonna be a bridge there, or there is not a clue on this earth that I know where I'm at.

• 2:24:48Jocko Willink?

  That's what I call seal excellence right there. Way to take ownership. Hey, I'm just gonna freaking bullshit the whole scene and keep my fingers crossed. Nicely done. And the op tempo, like I mentioned, the op tempo for the whole brigade was crazy, but you know, and that's one thing, when, when we got back and we started like looking at from a leadership perspective, you know, I realized that for you guys, sometimes it was like, hey, get your shit on, we're going out again. Hey, get your shit on, we're going out again. Hey, get your shit on, we're going out again. Hey, shit, get your shit on, we're going out again. And the people that were most engaged in like the planning were all had a better understanding of what we're getting our shit on to go out and do.

• 2:25:29Jocko Willink?

  And sometimes some of the guys that were less engaged with the planning were like, dude, what like, okay, we'll get our gear on. And you do that four times, seven times, 20 times, and you're like, dude, like this sucks. So that definitely started to wear on some of the guys of like, like, we're going out again. We just got back. Like, get our gear on right now. We just got back. So there's, it was, it was a, a very high op tempo that definitely tired guys out.

• 2:25:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, I would say, just because we were so like, absolutely smoked. And it was because we're going out, it's 120, 130 degrees. And I remember there was one point in the deployment where I was like, I don't really care if I die at this point. And it's not that I'm gonna fight less. You just stopped caring about your life because you're like, it's so dangerous. If I just make this something that I worry about, it's gonna drag on me. And which is kind of like, gives you kind of a insight into enemy when you just stop caring about life, like, you really can become a scary individual because you're like, oh, you wanna shoot at me? I don't care. I'm coming for you. Um, and so we started to burn out and I remember there was some grumblings, at least at like the one platoon or level.

• 2:26:45Speaker 01

  And Leif got like wind of it. And for some reason, Leif thought it was me. And I was actually on his side. And so Leif and I had a kind of a moment where. For like a hot minute, he took me off operations. Like it's not that I didn't go. He told me, he's like, hey, I'm gonna hold you back at the base. And I was like, why? And he was like, and he kind of explained like, hey, you know, there's some hate and discontent and he thought I was running it. And I had to be like, hey, bro, I'm, I'm on your side. Like, and so we actually had like, kind of like a heart to heart. And I remember we had it out back of like the platoon hut and it was, it was me explaining it. I'm like, we don't know why the hell they're doing it. And I'm like, I'm trying to be the middle man, trying to be like, hey, guys, what if we do X amount?

• 2:27:27Speaker 01

  What if we take that to life and you know, we just sleep in our bed like once a week or twice a week? That'll be good. And uh, yeah, so him and I got aligned at that point after I temporarily got uh, got benched for about 20 minutes.

• 2:27:45Speaker 01

  I went to my counterparts and I was like, all right, guys, like the negotiator. All right, guys. So if we do four ops a week and, and the thing is, and it was fair, like as, as I became a leader, like what the guys were looking at was just, just a break here and there because it is true. Like, they're up there, they're getting shot at. And at one point you're just like, your nerves just want to stop for just a minute. And I think they did that, like we did that. And so I thought that was no big deal. And to like, your point is, we were going so fast, not knowing what was happening. Cause there was, we, it was almost two years after we got back from Ramadi that I recognized what we did. I was like, oh, there was reason to that, just that chaos insanity.

• 2:28:27Speaker 01

  And um, it's, it's always something that like, I always taught my guys too. I was like, look, look for what we're doing. If I'm not telling you, ask me. If I think I'm telling you and you don't get it, then I'm, I'm, I'm off. So just ask me what the hell's going on.

• 2:28:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And that, I'm sure you've heard Leif talk about this. I actually wrote about it. Like, when we got back and I put together this slide, actually Andrew Paul put together a slide of like showing the, the, the retaking back of Ramadi. And like Leif.

• 2:28:57Jocko Willink?

  Leif was kinda like, damn, you know, even late and he's, you know, next to me, talking to me all the time. Even he was like, damn, like, that's a, that's a pretty awesome thing to be able to see. So to think that you, or never mind the new guys, like, to think that you would be like, oh, I understand the strategic perspective of what we were able to accomplish. Like, no, it's gonna, so, so that was a huge lesson learned is making sure that you can't expect guys to know and understand, even like sitting here today, when we were talking earlier about when you got to Ramadi. I mean, I remember when you guys all arrived and our first task unit meeting in the city of Ramadi, I'm like, it is going to be mayhem. There's going to be combat. It's going to be a historical opportunity for

• 2:29:41Jocko Willink?

  the SEAL teams right now with what we're about to do. Like, I said something along those lines, and you were like, yeah, whatever. It doesn't seem like it's, you know what I mean? Sure. So it's, it's just so, it's just so important that you are able to, like, reach and say, hey, dude, you understand what I'm talking about? Like, I shouldn't have to put you in Corregidor and have you get shot at by freaking snipers before you go, oh, it seems like some shit's going on here. And it was, and like, this is Ramadi, bro. There was freaking people getting wounded and killed every day. And the city's only so big. And, and we're going into the city. So if we're going into the city, guess what? It's gonna be on. And, yeah, those are, those are, uh, big lessons learned is

• 2:30:22Jocko Willink?

  just making sure that, you know, you're communicating with everybody and you're letting them know exactly why they're doing what they're doing and understand, uh, the big picture of what's happening. Because if they don't understand that, you know, then it turns into what I was talking about. Like, oh, you just want me to get my gear on and go out again? And I remember, I forget what, I forget, I remember one very specific situation where you guys had been in the field for like 48 hours. And while you were in the field, we were spinning up a target. So now we, as soon as you guys got back, it was like, hey, we're going to do a DA, like, in three hours. And you know, you guys get back at whatever nine o'clock at night or something. It was like, hey,

• 2:31:04Jocko Willink?

  we're gonna launch at one AM. And I remember, I was like, dude, like whoever I was looking at, I was like, dude, this dude is dehydrated. I was like, this dude is dehydrated. And I'm telling them like, hey, strap it on, we're going back out. And it was like, okay, you know, keep that in mind, bro. And, and then of course, you got like BTF Tony, who's like, I don't need water. And I will go out and not, I will go out until you make me come back like I'm going. So, uh, those are all good lessons learned, good things to think about. Um, and it was a push, man. It was, it was very continuous, even, even when we were able to say, all right, cool, we've got

• 2:31:48Jocko Willink?

  an opportunity to take, you know, instead of going in two days before the army, we'll go one day before the army, instead of staying two days after the army gets in, we'll pull back a day. So we started making some adjustments to get you guys to make sure that you guys were, you know, rested and recovered to the best of our ability. And, and the bottom line is like, whatever complaints guys had, every single guy, every single time, 100% of the time, got their shit on and went out the wire when it was time to go. So freaking awesome. Like, that's what you expect. These are frogmen. They, they're gonna bitch. They, they might bitch, they might complain. And then they're gonna get their gear on and go to work. And that's

• 2:32:31Jocko Willink?

  what every single guy did, which was freaking awesome to see. Um, and you know, like I, I, in my retirement speech, I talked about when, when we came back from that, from the blue on blue at Corregidor, from you getting freaking shot almost twice at Corregidor. And then I put the list up like, hey, who wants to go to Corregidor to live? There's gonna be a lot of operations, the living conditions suck, it's a terrible area, who wants to go? And every single guy in the task, you know, put their name on the, on the board and said, I'll go. And that's the attitude that, that's frogman activity, right there. Like, there's war, put me in, I'm ready to go. Um.

• 2:33:15Jocko Willink?

  We start pushing through deployment. Uh, we're moving towards, you know, now we're doing big operations. Now we're helping the army. We're helping the Marine Corps, um, providing support. We're getting towards August 2nd. What, what do you remember about going into August 2nd? Like what, going into August 2nd, which was Mark, when, when Ryan got wounded and Mark got killed? What do you remember going into that?

• 2:33:40Speaker 01

  So that was, I wasn't there that day because that was right after I fell through the roof. And so like days before August 2nd, I fell through the roof. My elbow was broken open like I, like, uh, our, our old man corpsman on base. Um, he, he told me, he was like, hey, you stay, you, this is the last op you have to stay back for. Cause I was like, hey, can I go on this op? And he's like, one more, cause if you break those stitches, we've got to do it again. And you're just never going to heal and then we're going to antibiotics, whole thing. So I remember, I remember the night, I remember the night before and, um, Mark and I were like, we're joking around of all things death. And you know, like if I get shot, you know?

• 2:34:23Speaker 01

  And so I just remember it like we're just having it. It was, it was one of those times where like, it, it, it just worked out to where we had like a really good, like hanging out, joking all the way until he left. I was, I think I was out there with you when they, when they took off, like we, we watched everybody go. And it's just a very specific memory. That just him and I like hanging out, cause him and I lived in, we lived in the same tent. And so, um, yeah, and it wasn't overly like, it's just another day, another op.

• 2:34:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it was just another op. That's, they were all just another op. And that's one of the hardest things is you think, oh, if you're in a leadership position, you should somehow be able to predict if something's going to go wrong or not. It's like, no. And there's, there's operations that you're like, get back and you go, damn. Like a lot of things could have gone really bad and yet here we are, everyone's fine. Mission accomplished. And then sometimes you're going out on an op that you maybe in the back of your mind think, oh, this, this one shouldn't be that big of a deal. And it turns out to be a, a, a big freaking, a big deal.

• 2:35:33Jocko Willink?

  So you're you're back, you know, Ryan gets so badly wounded, Mark gets killed.

• 2:35:42Jocko Willink?

  And now, like, what's what's your thought as a freaking one platoon guy?

• 2:35:49Jocko Willink?

  As this unfolds?

• 2:35:51Speaker 01

  I mean, and that until that point in my career, I'd only known of one Bud's instructor who died while being a contractor. So I'd had any real brushes with death personally. And I remember being woken up by one of the new guys who came back with the body and he was like, hey, Matt, Mark's gone. And I was like, it didn't it didn't register, right? I just woke up. It'd been early because we, you know, I think we went to bed around like seven, eight, nine in the morning and he had been back by like nine thirty. And he's like, hey, he was killed. And I was like, what are you talking about? And he was like, yeah, and he was explaining, he had explained to me like twice. And I it just. And I came out and I remember Ryan and Mark's body armor

• 2:36:35Speaker 01

  was there without them. And I mean, yeah, it was there without them and it was covered in blood. And by this point, we had those um, those augment seals, like super junior guys and he was up and he was out. And I looked at the body armor and I looked at him and I said, hey, get a hose and clean the blood off this body armor. And then me and the one platooner went to Charlie Med to see Mark because he was there. And I I remember when I walk in, we walked in one at a time and I remember looking at him. And he didn't look bad. He looked normal, like, right? Like, normal, like, nothing was out of the the ordinary.

• 2:37:18Speaker 01

  And I remember taking his, I pulled his American flag off and I gave it to his like main new guy friend. Because I was like, somebody's gonna have this. We're not just gonna let this get washed into the mix. And so that's that's kind of what I remember of that morning. And that was a very, it was it was surreal for all of us because I think, like I said, I was twenty three. So being that close, dealing with that at that time, it was different. And we didn't really know how to deal with it. I remember as we were all trying to deal with it together, nobody knew like what to do, how we were supposed to act. And I remember when they sent the body home, a couple of new guys went with them. And it was, it was so, so confusing to us that one of the new guys were like, when he went home, we're like,

• 2:38:04Speaker 01

  "Did you see your girlfriend?" And he's like, "Yeah." We're like, "Did you hook up with your girlfriend?" And he's like, "Yeah." We're like, "Okay, I guess that's a normal thing you would do." Like, truly, like, and I say that because we're so confused on how we were supposed to act now. And it, and that lasted, I mean, we weren't down long. Like, we got back out, but it was confusing because I, we're probably not overly good at processing emotion anyway. And so now we're processing this in hyper time. And I remember Googling what the motions were of like, as you were going through it, so we could kind of track what we were doing because it was, again, it was so weird. So, yeah.

• 2:38:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I had the, the, I was talking about this the other day, um, the, you know, we had the feeling of invincibility, right? Well, I, I shouldn't say we, because I didn't. I,

• 2:39:00Jocko Willink?

  you know, I'm seeing all the casualties all the time. And, you know, so I'm thinking

• 2:39:08Jocko Willink?

  there's it to continue to be the lucky. Like, did just, it's just gambling. It's just playing the numbers. Like, if you keep, if you keep placing bets, keep placing bets, keep placing bets, like, eventually the, the, the numbers are gonna, are gonna hit you. And, but like, the other thing is the, um, like, the army guys, the Marine Corps, like, one thing that I was, that, that, that happens is when something happens on the battlefield, everybody knows about it. So you're all kind of, we're all kind of interconnected because when, you know,

• 2:39:50Jocko Willink?

  there's a big explosion, when you're out in an Overwatch position and there's a big explosion and, you know, some Marine Corps unit or Army unit got hit, hit an IED and they got a casualty and that gets reported up on the battalion net and, well, the radio man or Leif, he hears that. And he goes, hey, guys, just hit, uh, Army guys just hit an ID. They have casualties. You're like, okay, you know, got it, Roger. And same thing, like, when you were in an Overwatch position and you freaking shoot and kill an enemy with an RPG, that gets reported. So like, the battalion net goes, hey, you know, Leif will call the company commander, hey, we just engaged one,

• 2:40:32Jocko Willink?

  one enemy fighter with an RPG. The company net calls the battalion net, says, hey, SEALs just engaged a guy, an RPG gunner, one enemy KIA. That goes to brigade net. So all the, all the information is getting disseminated. You know, even just a platoon commander, an Army platoon commander goes, hey, SEALs just shot another guy with an RPG. Like, they're just telling everyone what's going on. It's just, so, so you have this, this interconnected situation happening where everybody kind of knows. And let's face it, that had been, you know, April, May, June, July. And I guess April is like, we weren't too active in April because

• 2:41:16Jocko Willink?

  we just showed up in April. So it's, it's actually like, May, June, July. And what is the Army and what does the Marine Corps know about the SEALs? I'll tell you what they know about the SEALs at that time. Three enemy killed in action by 300 Win Mag. Two enemy killed in action. Mortar team killed. Like, that's what they knew over and over and over again. And we'd roll back into base, we'd roll back into the FOB, we'd roll back into the cops. And it'd be like, high five. You know, those guys were freaking stoked. And so when Mark got killed, it was like, all of a sudden, that invincibility for the platoons and for, you know, the Army looking at us, the Marine Corps looking at us, like, oh,

• 2:42:01Jocko Willink?

  I guess not. You know, I guess it's not invincible. And

• 2:42:07Jocko Willink?

  That was a, you know, a wake up call. And like you said, you know, when we train, you know, in our workup, um, we dealt, we deal with down men all the time. We deal with down men. But the down man, after that iteration is now back to life and we're carrying on. And so we know how to pick the guy up. We know how to treat him. We know how to do the medical stuff. We know how to do all that stuff. But we didn't know, there was no guidebook on like, oh, what you just said, you had to Google. No one told us that. It wasn't like, you know, the SEAL leadership at the time had some incredible amount of combat experience where they were like, hey, if you lose a guy,

• 2:42:51Jocko Willink?

  here's what you're gonna have to talk about. Here's what you're gonna have to do. Here's what you're gonna have to be ready for. And by the way, all that also takes a backseat to the fact that we have missions to do. And so we're gonna, you know, do a celebration of life ceremony, memorial ceremony. We're gonna put Mark on a, on his angel flight going home. And then the next day, it's gonna be get your gear on, cuz it's, it's time to get back into the fight. So all that was, you know, what we had to figure out, what you had to figure out, what I had to figure out, what everyone had to figure out. Because there was no playbook. Yeah, there's a playbook for

• 2:43:36Jocko Willink?

  how you notify the family. Yes, there's a playbook for the administrative forms you gotta fill out, but there's no playbook on what you say to that guy's best friend when you hand him that American flag that he took, that you took off of his, off of his uniform. Like, there's no, there's no lessons for that. At least it wasn't at the time.

• 2:44:00Jocko Willink?

  Um, and you know, my thing was, I, in my mind, the thing that I figured out to do was get back to work. Like, we cannot sit here. This is not good. We need to get our shit back on and get back out there. And, and, and that's what we did.

• 2:44:26Jocko Willink?

  And then the, you know, the, the missions continued and the, the fight continued and the pushes continued and the build outs continued. It would just, everything kept going.

• 2:44:40Jocko Willink?

  When was, when was the last time you saw Mikey?

• 2:44:44Speaker 01

  And so I, I remember the, just like Mark, I remember the last, cause we had a weird interaction that I said like, so I was in the chow hall, I was on the computers, you remember the computers?

• 2:44:56Jocko Willink?

  The chow hall in Camp Markley?

• 2:44:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:44:58Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:44:59Speaker 01

  And so we, I was, and he'd, he had come by for some reason. And I was emailing whoever, whatever, you know, I was doing whatever.

• 2:45:07Jocko Willink?

  He had to go to medical, he had to fly out and go to Balad and get, he had, I think, an ear infection.

• 2:45:17Speaker 01

  Oh, really?

• 2:45:17Jocko Willink?

  And so he had to fly out and he came back, he went up, got looked at, got medicine. And when he came back, he was, he was in for a little while. And I remember because when he got back to Camp Markley, he's like, what, what is, what's going on at Craigor? And I was like, dude, they're rolling out or not. And he's like, you gotta get me back there. Like, can you get me back there tonight? He like begged and I ended up getting him a logistic convoy, like he hitched a ride. But that's what he was doing. That's most likely what he was doing.

• 2:45:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so he walked in and I remember seeing him and I hadn't seen him in a while. I'm like, Mikey, how are things going? And it was the weirdest thing, like, you know, we do like the bro five. But then he like, he came in for a hug. Like I thought we were just gonna do the bro five and then he gave me like, a hug and it was longer than any hug that we have ever had. And I was kinda like, oh, okay. Cool, man. Hey, it's great seeing you. But I remember that interaction because that was the last one. And it was just like the bro five, but then like a solid like hug after that. And it was something we had never done. And it was just that we, that was the last time I saw him.

• 2:46:33Speaker 01

  And so it was, I mean, I'm glad, I'm glad that's the last time, that was our last interaction, you know? I'm glad I wasn't like cracking jokes at his expense or anything, you know, anything like that. But, um, no, I mean, yeah, it was, it was, that was a very surreal event.

• 2:46:52Jocko Willink?

  So. That's right towards the end of the deployment, um, obvi- obviously September 29th, that's when, when Mikey was killed. Wh- how much longer after that did you head home?

• 2:47:05Speaker 01

  I went right before that. So me and the corpsman had to go to, uh, military freefall school. And I had no idea. I remember I was sleeping in my bed. And, uh,

• 2:47:18Speaker 01

  he, the corpsman comes in, he's like, Matt, Matt. And by this time, like my nerves are shot. I like bolted up sweating. I was like, what? What is it? And he's like, damn, I hate waking you up. And you know, I'm like, um, he's like, hey, we have to go to freefall school. And I was like, right now? And he's like, yeah, we're leaving like this afternoon. And I'd been asleep like three hours. So I had to pack my entire room up. And it was just a couple of weeks earlier, but as you know, like as the schools start, like you gotta get back. And that was the one that I, I had to go to. And so, yeah, we, we left, I think a week before that happened. Cause I was with the corpsman from that platoon and he's the one who called me and told me that. And I was like, I remember I was standing in my condo at the time. And I was like, are you serious?

• 2:47:59Speaker 01

  And I was like, Jesus. And so I was back to receive Mike when he landed in San Diego. So I had like, I was one of the guys in my uniform. We were at the airport, took, offloaded the casket, did the whole thing.

• 2:48:12Jocko Willink?

  Damn dude. That must've been freaking totally surreal. Especially cause like how, what other guys from Task Unit Bruiser were there for that?

• 2:48:20Speaker 01

  Just the guys that were sent back. So there was a few, uh, I want to say one of the JOs were sent back, couple of the new guys. And then myself and the corpsman were back.

• 2:48:27Jocko Willink?

  Damn dude.

• 2:48:29Speaker 01

  And then I think a couple of the guys from the team came to be like the other two. So it wasn't a lot of us. So again, it was one of those times where like, now we had this other thing happen. We kind of knew.

• 2:48:41Speaker 01

  But yeah, so we had, we were kind of on the backend, helping them do that whole side of it. Cause obviously Mark came back. We were all working still. So we sent a small group back. They did the funeral. They did all the stuff. And we were staying busy. Now we were on the other side of that, doing the funeral, doing all the stuff. And then when the rest of the platoon, because you know, the platoon was trickling back. And as they came back, they were just plugging in to how, because by the time that you all came back, I think was right before the funeral. And so then we all went to that.

• 2:49:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, actually, no, we weren't back for the funeral.

• 2:49:08Speaker 01

  Oh, you weren't back for the funeral?

• 2:49:09Jocko Willink?

  We, we didn't, it was like me, Stone or Leif, Tony, like there's a crew of us that, I mean, obviously we're the leadership position. We're not, we can't leave until, and we wouldn't want to leave until like it's over.

• 2:49:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:49:20Jocko Willink?

  And so, uh, yeah, we weren't, we weren't there for the funeral. And what was it like, you know, so you talked about reading after action reports when you were in the PI in your first platoon? And Fallujah was going on and the snipers are out there doing work and you're sitting in, in the PI. And I didn't, when, when later, when we got home, you know, my buddies were like, bro, we were reading the freaking AARs. And they were, you know, it was a lot of, a lot of combat, like a lot of combat was happening. And there hadn't been that kind of sustained combat for a particular like single unit for a long time.

• 2:50:04Jocko Willink?

  When you got home, what was it like? Like here you are, you're rolling back, you've, you've just like, you've been wounded. You've like been through a lot of combat activity and you're talking to guys. Were they aware of what was going on? Were they read in? Were they like, dude, we saw your AARs? What was it like?

• 2:50:23Speaker 01

  Dude, we were rock stars.

• 2:50:26Speaker 01

  In the teams, like Danny's, McPee's, like, we were, because I mean, that was, we were the gold standard at that point, right? Like, because we had seen so much combat, guys just couldn't get enough. They're like, what, what? This is insane. What did you do? And it was just like, we could do no wrong. And yeah, we were, it was, it was awesome because you came back and you had all this experience. Plus, I mean, in a greater sense, like we did exactly what we signed up for, for a sustained amount of time. Saw this incredible amount of combat, even though of course, like I always say, it was the, the best and worst time in my life. And I think I've, I've heard that from you, but, and that's, I 100% believe that.

• 2:51:07Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 2:51:09Jocko Willink?

  Um, how was the adaptation to like regular the world when you got home? Like you go from Ramadi, that's gotta be freaking weird, right? You go from Ramadi, you're out on an op, you're killing people, you got people trying to kill you, and now you're at Vons.

• 2:51:32Speaker 01

  You know, the, the first time I remember something weird happening was in Coronado. And I was talking to the corpsman, I was like, you know, I was driving through Coronado and he stops me, he goes, "All the buildings are the exact size of the ones in Ramadi." And I was like, "That's what it is." Cause I just got, I was driving through Coronado and I just got tense, sweaty, and I was like, "That's weird." And so I was telling about it and he didn't even let me finish, he's like, "It's happened to me like three times."

• 2:51:54Speaker 01

  But no, I was touchy, to say the least, and the thing is, I wasn't like emotional about people, but like about the guys. And I remember like, you were like viciously protective of anybody that was in that, that task unit. And I mean, I was 23, so that was a problem. I remember we got in a few draggers out there because like, and, and it was like, God help someone that took a swing at one of those guys. Cause then it was like, I didn't turn off. And I was like, "Oh, it's," and it just, you went into just like, all, I mean, the, the bond. And so it, it took some time for that to like, level out. Because again, like, we didn't know how, nobody knew how, like, we weren't seeing psychs.

• 2:52:37Speaker 01

  You just, you got back and you started training again, and you started like a new workout, or you went to a school and you're just like, "Okay, we're cool now." And the thing is, like, I was fine. Like I, like, it's never hurt, like, I truly, if I could spend all my money and do it again, I would. Because I loved it.

• 2:52:54Jocko Willink?

  No doubt about that.

• 2:52:56Speaker 01

  But I, I mean, there is some things that were-

• 2:52:58Jocko Willink?

  Did you know that while you were there?

• 2:53:00Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:53:00Jocko Willink?

  See, this again, I was older and, how old were you, 22, 23?

• 2:53:06Speaker 01

  22, 20, I, yeah, 20-

• 2:53:08Jocko Willink?

  23 on deployment?

• 2:53:09Speaker 01

  23 on deployment, yeah.

• 2:53:10Jocko Willink?

  So I was like, I turned 35 on deployment. And I spent my whole adult life in the SEAL teams. So when I was there, I knew 100%, like, this is the apex of my life. This is like, no- nothing better than this is gonna happen, this is the best thing ever. And I knew that, and every day, I knew that, like, every day, I knew it. And so, uh-

• 2:53:34Jocko Willink?

  I felt like I had like a certain level of appreciation, you know, that even like you talk to Johnny Kim and and some of the other new guys. That was their first deployment. It was like they like they thought all deployments were going to be like that. You know, they're like, how do seals like make it through a 20 year career if this is what deployment is like? This is freaking crazy.

• 2:53:56Jocko Willink?

  So, yeah, when you when you feel like it's normal, though, and you feel like you did your job, like, okay, cool. I did it. Now what's next?

• 2:54:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so I remember I got done. We'd been through crazy. And so I kind of thought this was the norm. Like, this was the beginning of the war, right? My first point, we did the rip, but even in the second half, we got to see a lot, saw a lot, Ramadi. So I was a little bit ruined. And I, and if you were in the Navy, if you joined in those early 2000s, you got kind of ruined. And you were, and I talked to those guys through my entire career all the way out is it's like you grew up a rich kid. And so that's kind of how you saw the world. So when the money went away, you were like, no, I don't like this. This isn't.

• 2:54:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it'd be much easier to go through life, never having eaten a a ribeye steak before. Just eat eaten burger, right? You'd be kind of like burger, dude, I freaking pumped on a burger. And if I never had a ribeye, I'd be totally stoked. But if you have a ribeye, now all of a sudden, the burger is kind of like, you're getting kind of. So, yeah, that's kind of what it was like. And for me, again, because I grew up in the 90s in the teams, there was no war. Like, I grew up eating burger, a lot of it. So now all of a sudden, it was ribeyes, and I knew every bite of that ribeye. I knew I better just relish that ribeye every single bite.

• 2:55:16Speaker 01

  So, yeah, I mean, it was, it was good. So I, you know, I had a good time. But I remember like I wanted to try something new. And that's when I went with you to Trade Ed.

• 2:55:29Jocko Willink?

  So you come to Trade Ed, you start working in Salk. And did you work Salk and CQC?

• 2:55:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, because at the time, it wasn't huge. And so it was like, your group was small. So half of the group was running Salk and was working CQC. The other half was running CQC and working Salk. And so we were gone. It was like a month, every other month. I mean, that's when I got like my platinum Marriott status that I kept for the next like 12 years.

• 2:55:58Speaker 01

  And so we were, we were busy.

• 2:56:02Jocko Willink?

  Uh, what do you remember about, so this was a really pretty amazing thing was they brought all of Task Unit Bruiser to Washington DC and it was for Mikey's mom and dad were gonna, were gonna receive Mikey's Medal of Honor and they actually did the ceremony for him, but then they also did a ceremony for basically the rest of the guys. Uh, and that was, that was a very, what's that word? Surreal thing to have happen. Like to have, to go out there, to be at the Pentagon, to be at the

• 2:56:44Jocko Willink?

  White House. Uh, and then to have like the old frogmen show up and it was, cause you know, you got Medal of Honor recipient. It was, it was pretty amazing thing to be a part of.

• 2:56:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was, like you say, as a 23 year old, where you get an invitation to the White House, you go in, you're sitting in the press room, you got G Dub up there, like, you know, he's awarding this amazing honor to Mike's parents and it's just being a part of that is it's, it's unfortunate that that had to happen, but so lucky to have been a part of that whole, you know, just being there, being able to work with him, being able to be a part of the ceremony and see all those things, be with a SEAL platoon in the White House. Honestly, get, get a little, uh,

• 2:57:43Speaker 01

  little liquored up in the White House.

• 2:57:46Speaker 03

  Which I'm still to this day shocked that they let us drink, but they did. And so it was in a, and you know, phenomenal stories that came out of that, like, Secret Service was cool, I think, for dealing with us. Um, but that was so cool. And, you know, going to the Pentagon, do the, the, that, uh, I forget the room where all the Medal of Honor recipients are, seeing that and.

• 2:58:12Speaker 01

  Just experiencing that as a, as a young operator was awesome. It was awesome. And then, you know, tried to recreate the, uh, the wedding crasher scene. Cops were pretty savvy to that.

• 2:58:24Jocko Willink?

  Which scene?

• 2:58:26Speaker 01

  You know, they wake up in the morning and they've got like the bottle and they're on the steps of the Lincoln. And so apparently this was right after wedding crashers. So apparently a bunch of people were trying to do it. And so they kind of were like, hey, you guys can't do that here. But they actually became our friends. They gave a bunch of guys the tour from the tunnels under the Lincoln. And then we ended up, uh,

• 2:58:45Jocko Willink?

  That's funny because you, you got tours like from, I got tours from somebody else. I forget who it was. Somebody else gave me tours of the tunnels under the Lincoln.

• 2:58:53Speaker 01

  And it was, it was cool because it was at a time, it was, everybody was so patriotic, so friendly. We're going around DC. You know, we had the, uh, that Navy, um, the Navy Yard in DC where we had that other ceremony. And then we went into the Navy museum and it was all SEALs at that time. Cause it now it rotates through what it was. And got to see all that stuff. So it was, it was one of the like more highlighting experiences in my, just my general lifetime, especially up to that point.

• 2:59:24Jocko Willink?

  I wish I would have taken pictures of anything in my career. Cause I don't have Jack for pictures of anything in my career. Uh, but man, I wish I, wish I had a bunch of pictures of that whole thing, man. It was just freaking, what an honor to be a part of that. That whole thing, man.

• 2:59:40Jocko Willink?

  Meanwhile, like you said, you know, you're, you're working at Trade at, you know, did you, I always felt like when I was training, when I was teaching, I was getting so much better and I got so much better. Cause the, starting when I was in E5 at SEAL Team One, and I worked in the training cell at the time. And like you get to see and you get to detach. You get to watch what works and what doesn't work. Did you feel that happening when you were at Trade at?

• 3:00:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. A hundred percent. And I was, I was listening to your podcast with Carlos to like warm up for this. And I remember we, we, uh, saw some of the same things and what was like the biggest eye opener to me was like leadership. Like regardless of like where you came from, all leaders were not, you could have this amazing operator that couldn't lead. And that was like the big shocker to me. Cause you know, you'd have these awesome operators. I knew they were awesome. And then I would put them through training and I was like, oh man, I am throwing some softballs right now and you are missing them.

• 3:00:32Speaker 01

  And so that was like a, a big learning lesson on just being a leader in of men in combat.

• 3:00:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And the, the other thing I think a lot of times people don't realize is it's a skill. And if you have an open mind to learn the skill, you'll be like, wait a second. I just, you know, lost control in that hallway. What could I have done better? Be like, hey, you know, as you start to move, you need to make sure that you move the guys in a methodical way. So they don't get out of control. You go, oh, okay. What, what do you mean methodical? Like that mean, so you just, if you go, okay, cool. Got it. Or hey, you didn't see that there was a really easy solution you could have taken. Instead of you just kept pushing down this hallway to a freaking barricaded shooter down there. And you got nine of your guys shot up with paintball. Is that good? No, that doesn't seem good. All you had to do is take a step back, look around and you would have seen that there's another way to prosecute that target.

• 3:01:24Jocko Willink?

  Okay. So take a step backward and you can actually learn that. And so we get to see all kinds of people become better leaders because they were humble, had an open mind and be like, okay, cool. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense. I shouldn't be the guy that's like pointing my weapon down the hallway and holding security. You're right. I can't lead when I'm doing that. Cool. And then occasionally you get guys that they, they, they don't understand that it's a skill. Or they think that they know everything already and then you're just screwed, dude. It's just like, they're going to be bad. And you're right. Someone could be an outstanding shooter, an outstanding assaultor, outstanding freaking machine gunner, an outstanding sniper. And they can still suck as a leader. Most of the time they can get trained up, but occasionally they're freaking eagles too big and they can't.

• 3:02:10Jocko Willink?

  They can't adapt and learn, which sucks. So, um, yeah, gotta watch out for that chick. Gotta watch out for that ego. Uh, so then what happened next? You went out to the East Coast?

• 3:02:23Speaker 01

  So I trained up. I mean, I, while I was getting ready, the real, the reason I went to training was I want to go to the East Coast. I wanted to join another team. So I went out there, joined another team. And when you go to another team, you start as a new guy. And I'd just been through Ramadi. I didn't want to be a new guy. And what I essentially did was ostracize myself. I, it was phenomenal operators, great teams to be on, great dudes. And I didn't want to play the game. And in short, I didn't. And so ultimately, what happened, I spent some time out in the East Coast. And then ultimately where I ended up is I got asked to come back in two years when I matured.

• 3:03:02Jocko Willink?

  Check. So then what? You go back out, come back out to the West Coast?

• 3:03:07Speaker 01

  So I, yeah. And so this is really the first time in my career that's like, I've had a negative happen to me at all. Like, my skill level has been able to float me through any of my, um, you know, leadership challenges.

• 3:03:21Jocko Willink?

  Your, your skill level could outrun your mouth.

• 3:03:26Speaker 01

  Pretty, exactly, right? And that, and it held me. And that was a good, like, there was a good checkpoint where I had to be like, okay. Yeah, I need to, it's one of those, you know, those inflection points in life where you have to make a big jump now. You're like, what your little, your trajectory is, you need to make a bigger one. And so I called back to the West Coast. The SEA from Ramadi was actually now in charge of one of the teams. And more than happy, he's at Team Five. And he was like, when you're ready, bring it. I'm here. And so, yeah, I came back to the West Coast, joined Team Five.

• 3:03:59Jocko Willink?

  And then would, do you get put right into a platoon?

• 3:04:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, I immediately joined a platoon. And since I just came back from the East Coast, the leadership was like, hey, we don't know Matt. We don't want him. And so they actually started immediately trying to outprosperity from the platoon. Like, so when you, I had-

• 3:04:17Jocko Willink?

  What stage of the platoon was, were they in the workup already? Were they-

• 3:04:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, they are mid-workup.

• 3:04:21Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 3:04:22Speaker 01

  Lucky for me, they were in assaults. And so I came back a little faster than they were. And so, because I'd been in this high-speed training, I was pretty quick. And the level that they were wasn't the level that I was. So I remember one time I was going through, and we called it a safety violation. I'd never had one in the teams. But because of something that I was used to doing, that I brought back to the West Coast, I did, they're like, Matt, you can't do that over here. And I was like, hey, fair enough. And so my platoon, like, I got written up for it. And I was like, wow, this is weird. I've never had this happen. And so I kind of ignored it. And I just put my head down and started working really hard. And one day my boss comes to me and he's like, hey Matt, I want to apologize to you. And I was like, tell me, I was like, I didn't understand why. And he's like, when you came to the platoon, I wanted to out process you. I was trying to get rid of you.

• 3:05:05Jocko Willink?

  Damn.

• 3:05:06Speaker 01

  And him and I actually became really good friends and he never had to say anything. I always gave him credit. It taught me something about leadership there, like how he, how like comfortable he was in it. Because he was like, hey, man, you've been a value add. You've been a great member on our team and I just wanted you to know. Like that's what happened and, and you know what, like you're awesome and thank you. And I, we did like the bro thing where I'm like, no, you're awesome.

• 3:05:32Speaker 01

  But it was, you know, it was one of those things where he was, he was a really, one of those individuals you learn a lot from. He was a good leader and I was able to learn a lot from him.

• 3:05:41Jocko Willink?

  And did you, did you end up being the LPO in that platoon?

• 3:05:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I came in and you won't, you won't remember this, but there was a guy that was younger than me that was promised the LPO. And there was like confusion about like, hey, Matt's the senior guy. The LPO is about to make chief. We know he's going to make chief. Who are we going to make the LPO? And I went to you and we were at, we were at Victor doing jujitsu and I was like, hey, I don't know what to do about this because I'm the senior guy. I want to be LPO and like, and you're like, it shouldn't be a question. You're the senior guy. You just tell them you're, that's how it works, you know? And I was like, okay. And ultimately I did. I became the, the guy who was actually one of my best friends who was going to be LPO. He's like, dude, Matt's way, way more experienced. I was older than he was, like older in the teams than he was.

• 3:06:26Speaker 01

  And so he's like, dude, it's his, it's his run. Have him take it. And so I ultimately became the LPO on deployment of that platoon.

• 3:06:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there's, that's like, uh, the way the military works is like, if you're the senior guy, generally speaking, if you're the senior guy, you're going to be in charge. So like, now look, if you're a turd and you're senior guy, I could, you know, I could be like, oh yeah, Echo, you're the senior guy, but Matt's in charge. Like you can do that. If Echo's a freaking turd, you can do that. But generally speaking, if there's no like major drama like that and it's like, well, I'm the senior guy, but there's this other guy that's like, well, you're the senior guy. So, and there is a whole thing that's happening in the teams, which is you're, you're moving people up the ladder.

• 3:07:14Jocko Willink?

  You know, like there's certain, there's a certain course or a certain professional development and course of promotion that you're gonna get. And if you disrupt the promotional progression, then you kind of screw the whole system. And me, you know, if I, if I put someone in charge that really shouldn't be there above someone that should be there, now I've just screwed up the whole system. I'm gonna screw it up for a bunch of other people. So a lot of times like, okay, cool. As long as you're like, you're both good at your job. Matt, you're the senior guy, go get some. So that's probably what I told you, like, oh, you're the senior guy, you know, let him know and get it.

• 3:07:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and it, it worked out that, it almost didn't work out that way. We were, we were at the island training and we, we had nothing to do, so we found our way into the hell box.

• 3:08:00Jocko Willink?

  Bro, you're getting a pattern here. Matt Hasby with nothing to do at age 25 is not a good thing. Something's gonna be caught on fire, destroyed. Okay, what happened here?

• 3:08:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know, I know. I am, if I look at my, like, as I was writing this, I was like, oh my God. It was almost painful to write at one point, because I was like, it took me so long and so many hard lessons to like lock things in. But, um, so we were out at the island and we went to the salty crab, got a little sauced, and then went to the hell box because we were bored. You know, it's, it's just where the instructors hang out for buds and nobody was there.

• 3:08:35Jocko Willink?

  It's like a little clubhouse on San Clemente Island.

• 3:08:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it was empty. And, um, so we go into the hell box and they have these like cutouts of like bikini models, like these cardboard cutouts. And so for some reason in this platoon, we were really good at throwing knives. Like we, I don't know why. We, we practiced it all the times. Like, it was like a scene out of The Desperado when we were on one of our trips. There's a board around and dudes are throwing it from 20 feet away and just hammering these things. So we put one of these cardboard cutouts up and we're like sitting around just talking to each other and we're just like tossing knives at these cardboard cutouts. And what we didn't see is when the knife would hit it, the cardboard cutout would swing and hit the cabinets. And again, we're sauce, so obvious, probably super obvious, but we weren't picking it up.

• 3:09:21Speaker 01

  So anyway, we don't do too much. We, that's kind of what happens. We get done, we go back, we got training the next day, or I think it was a day off. That's why we were out that night. And so we just got to like, you know, take care of our gear. And all of a sudden, like, the world blows up. And there's this regular Navy CB who's charged with taking care of the island. He had hand-built those cabinets. And he had just put them in.

• 3:09:44Jocko Willink?

  So are there like knife marks in the cabinet?

• 3:09:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 3:09:47Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, check.

• 3:09:48Speaker 01

  Hundreds.

• 3:09:48Jocko Willink?

  Oh, check.

• 3:09:50Speaker 01

  And, and so they come, and as you know, in the Navy, like, stories go crazy. Like in the teams, it's insane. It's, it went from like what we really did to we went in and dudes were pissing on the floor and throw, and it was, it was crazy.

• 3:10:08Jocko Willink?

  The rumor mill is impressive.

• 3:10:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so, um, I, I'm getting like, so now it's getting bad. And it was me, the other guy who should have been the, the entire like leader, like the three platoon to two platoon group. Again, another group you can't lose. These are like who I surround myself, like strength in numbers. And, um, it's starting to get insane and, and it's starting to look bad. Like Captain's mass is gonna go, is gonna happen. Like, and this Navy chief, he called the wrong people. Like he called group. He didn't call the team. He called group. He didn't call anybody at group. He called the XO at group. And then he did what, he was emotional about these cabinets, so he blew the story up. And it was, he was like, hey, this is what I think's happening. And again, he didn't know, and it not his fault.

• 3:10:55Speaker 01

  Like, we, we wrecked this guy's cabinets. He was emotional and fair, fair point. Um, and so the XO of group is now on a warpath and he hits back and, um,

• 3:11:09Speaker 01

  He he's looking for blood. He wants captain's mask. We're doing all this thing. And so I go to my boss and I was like, hey, do you mind if I go over to the hell box, take some pictures? And he's like, yeah. So I go, I take some picture of these cabinets. And I take a pictures of all the hell box and I send him to the CEO at team five. And because I'm like, I have to now take control of this situation because it doesn't seem like anybody else is. And um, we get back and um, I go to the the CEO of team five and he was like, those pictures saved your life. Damn. He was like, before you came back, all these stories I was hearing, I believed of a hundred percent. I thought you guys were lying and I took pictures. I'm like, look, now this nothing's actually ruined. This is all fine, you know?

• 3:11:51Speaker 01

  But we had to do a DRB at Chiefs, you know, disciplinary review board from the Chiefs. And so it's me and the other senior E six. And this is where I honestly, I give you credit because this is where I did the ownership thing. Is I was the senior guy and I me and my buddy are about to walk in. I look at him and I go, don't say a fucking word. And he looks at me, he's like, I'm just like, do not talk. Do you understand me? And he's like, okay. And so we walk in, he's like, guys, what happened? And I was like, we, this is what happened and this was my fault. I was the senior man on and everything was approved by me.

• 3:12:26Speaker 01

  And I remember that was like, they were off guard because I think they expected some fight. And they were like, so what? And I was like, hey, this was my responsibility to manage these individuals. I was the leading petty officer on site. This is what happened. This was a miscalculation on my part and I own everything that happens. And we wore whites around the team for a week. We had to go out to San Clemente and help that chief do some work for like five days, which it equated to a lot of spearfishing. But um, you know, it honest taking ownership was like, and that was one of those like aha moments in my career where I was like, oh, oh, you don't fight it like you just own it like.

• 3:13:11Jocko Willink?

  One of those things, man. This shit works.

• 3:13:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:13:15Jocko Willink?

  How was that deployment?

• 3:13:17Speaker 01

  Um, that deployment was.

• 3:13:19Jocko Willink?

  Where'd you deploy to?

• 3:13:21Speaker 01

  We deployed to Basra. And then we made our way down to Baghdad where we became the strike force.

• 3:13:29Jocko Willink?

  Oh, nice.

• 3:13:29Speaker 01

  And so, which was good because we were doing mission for mission with Delta.

• 3:13:34Jocko Willink?

  Oh, nice.

• 3:13:34Speaker 01

  And so we would swap in and out and it was honestly, it was a very different.

• 3:13:40Jocko Willink?

  Were you guys with a partner force?

• 3:13:42Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:13:43Jocko Willink?

  Okay. Was it probably the ICTF?

• 3:13:47Jocko Willink?

  Or was it some other, there's a couple other elements.

• 3:13:49Speaker 01

  It was one of the other ones because they weren't as sad. And why I know it wasn't the ICTF, their gear wasn't as good.

• 3:13:53Jocko Willink?

  Cause ICTF had freaking American gear.

• 3:13:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, they had like mini guns and stuff like crazy things. No, they're, so their gear wasn't as good. So it was a high speed unit, but not as good. And we operated with them a lot, all over because TF-160 was our support. And so like, we had everything. And it was honestly, it was super fun. And being at that point in my career, I was the LPO. And so we were only allowed, we were only going out like, I think we could do four operators to 16 of them. And so we were going out in super small numbers. And it was funny because the Delta guys would get pissed because every time we went out, something would happen.

• 3:14:32Speaker 01

  Like firefights, like one time we, um, talk about not knowing where Matt again is point man. Now I'm running point all the time. And we got off a helo and a fog bank rolled in so thick, I couldn't see anything. And the helos couldn't land, we couldn't extract. So now we're just on the ground. We have to work it out. And I walked us into the target. How I knew it was the target was I touched a building that was two feet in front of my face. And I'm like, I think this is it.

• 3:14:57Speaker 01

  All I could see was this piece of wall. And so, um, yeah, I got to run point man.

• 3:15:05Speaker 01

  Lot of crazy combat, which was was super fun. I got caught in an ambush a couple of times.

• 3:15:12Jocko Willink?

  So. Did you have any guys get wounded?

• 3:15:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, one time I walked in and I was walking point and it just rained and my chief was pissed because he was in the back and we were ankle deep mud. And he goes, he's like, Matt, is there a better way that you think you could take right now? And there wasn't like I had done the like the best map study I could do. And I was like, chief, they we got nothing, man. We're here. So we roll up, we roll up on these, these guys and they're sleeping out in this field and the target was a building. These guys are about 400 yards away. And so my chief takes the larger element to the building to do the hit. I take a smaller element to these two individuals sleeping. And I remember I stopped 10 yards from him and I look at the Iraqis and I'm like, hey, get them.

• 3:15:55Speaker 01

  And they got on top and what I had never seen before is these guys fought and they fought hard. And so they start kicking the, the guy on the right and the guy on the left, the guy on the right like kicks off these.

• 3:16:07Jocko Willink?

  Like physically fighting.

• 3:16:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:16:09Jocko Willink?

  Like, like fist fight, like.

• 3:16:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. And they're doing good.

• 3:16:11Jocko Willink?

  Okay. Damn, okay.

• 3:16:13Speaker 01

  And they're like, they're winning. And so I jump on one guy. And he does something I've never had a guy do under me. He rolls onto his back to face me. And I was like, I'm uncomfortable already because now I'm like, you're repositioning because usually, you know, you get on somebody, they're just kind of like, and you win, big American. And he was like, nope. And he wanted to. And I remember when he looked at me, I knew something was wrong because he didn't look at me like, he looked at me more of like surprise and anger. And I was like, not fear.

• 3:16:45Jocko Willink?

  Okay, yeah.

• 3:16:46Speaker 01

  And I was like, uh oh. And so as I, and so now I'm like, I go, because I don't know if they've got vests on. This was a miscalculation on my part by far. Like I'm too far into this and I'm the only American and I have an interpreter and these, these Iraqis out there. And so he rolls over and as I'm about to make space, because I'm like, please don't clack yourself off. In the corner of my eye, I see a spark and I just instinctively knew that is starting the like the explosive train of grenade. I'm like, oh no. And so I stand up and I know I can't run because it's dark and if he throws it, anybody's guess. So I stand there and he, he's, he's, he's pulling back and I'm shooting as I'm

• 3:17:29Speaker 01

  shooting and standing at the same time. And I, I'm luckily, I got the guy. He drops the grenade where he's at and we all run. And I'm like grenade and some of the Iraqis weren't fast enough because he was, they were the guy fighting him. And so then they took grenade frag like in the knee. So now I've got this guy. He's on the ground like screaming. I have this other guy and there's a grenade on the ground and we see it and we all see it at the same time and he sees it at the same time. So it's like this, this standoff. And I'm like in America, you know, in English, I'm like, don't do it, you know, and you got the Iraqis are yelling what they yell. And so he goes for it. He goes to pull it. We solve that problem.

• 3:18:05Jocko Willink?

  So that was the both the guys. So you drilled the first guy as he stood up as he was, as he pulled the, the, the, uh, pin on the grenade and he clacked that thing off or he released the spoon or whatever mechanism. So you break contact with him, drill him, and then the other guy sees another grenade and he goes for it.

• 3:18:25Speaker 01

  He goes for it. He goes to pull it right as he's, he's like fingers in. Cause I, I'm giving it like, I'm, I'm trying to let the Iraqis, still I'm like of sound mind. And I'm like, the Iraqis are yelling. He's going to pull the trigger. I'm like, well, nobody's doing anything. So then we, I solved that problem. And then it was funny because we were, we weren't, we were very low American footprint at this time. And I look at the Iraqi next to me and I'm like, congratulations, you got him. And um, he, he looks at me with confusion. I'm like, yeah, you just shot it. And he was like, I what? And then it was so funny. So like, we do all this stuff and there, you know, we, we link up with our, our other counterparts and I see him telling his friends. He's like, yeah, I got him. He's like, you know, using the, he's like telling all his friends about how he shot that guy. I was like,

• 3:19:10Speaker 01

  I just made that guy hero.

• 3:19:13Jocko Willink?

  That's, that kind of reminds me in Ramadi when we had did that hostage rescue. You probably never even saw this, but there was like a full like news article that came out of the Iraqis rescuing this hostage. And it was like this big awesome thing that they did. And I was like, oh cool. We'll keep the, we'll keep it tight on that one.

• 3:19:31Jocko Willink?

  Uh, good. So that's a freak. So you had another freaking awesome deployment.

• 3:19:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was good. It got to the point where the Delta guys owned the mission that we were doing and they started like do two to one. Because they're like, every time you guys out go and they would get like so upset. Because they would be watching like, cause you know, when all this went down, which was super cool. It was on pred feed.

• 3:19:52Jocko Willink?

  Oh, sweet.

• 3:19:53Speaker 01

  So you could see like the firefight, you'd see me run out of this frame. You see me run back in the frame, another firefight. And so like, it was super fun to watch, but like, they're like, no, we're gonna do two. You guys are gonna do one. And then like, nothing would happen for two. We'd go out for one and then like, all of a sudden, bad guy ambush. And then like another firefight and they're like, what the hell do you seals do out there? And we're like, I don't know, man. Just luck.

• 3:20:15Jocko Willink?

  Check. Uh, you come back home from that deployment. What's next?

• 3:20:20Speaker 01

  So I actually got.

• 3:20:21Jocko Willink?

  Did you do an augment or something?

• 3:20:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I, I was, it was, I was actually, uh, I got called back on that deployment. My wife was pregnant at the time.

• 3:20:31Speaker 01

  She got into a car accident. Somebody like rear hit and run, had a bunch of complications. So I was tracking that. And then I got a call like, hey, your kid's being born right now. Literally. I was in a firefight. I remember I got me and this Delta comms guy, we got ambushed. We got in a firefight. Uh, my chief showed up, like, we ended up solving a problem again, killing the guy. And I was on a plane within hours home. And it was, it was phenomenal because we were with the Delta guys and NSW didn't have a flight and they're like, we got a bird. You want it? And so the Delta guys got me on their bird, got me back to the East Coast. They had a guy at the command show up. With my picture and he's holding it. And so I get off the plane. He's holding my picture. He drives me to the local airport.

• 3:21:13Speaker 01

  And then I'm back in San Diego. And I mean, literally from firefight to like. New baby, less than 24 hours.

• 3:21:20Jocko Willink?

  Did you make it home in time for the baby being born?

• 3:21:22Speaker 01

  No, no, I got home. Wife was in the ICU. Baby was in the NICU.

• 3:21:27Jocko Willink?

  Damn.

• 3:21:28Speaker 01

  And so it was funny though, the hospital like psych lady was all over me, like to like kind of annoyance. Like she's like, I know you just got back from more and like, I'm fine. Like I'm cool. She's like, you're dealing with a lot right now. And I'm like, I'm dealing with a whole lot less than I was two days ago. So things aren't so bad right now. And so, yeah, hung out. Um, yeah, new baby in, in the hospital. He got out and then, uh, yeah, decided to go on an augment because I'd never been to Afghanistan.

• 3:21:58Jocko Willink?

  How was the augment?

• 3:21:59Speaker 01

  It was, it was good. Like it was, it was one of those things. I'd been at team five. I was looking to possibly go back to the east coast. I was like, hey, I'm gonna go out, see how this goes. Uh, my wife, I told her they made me.

• 3:22:13Speaker 01

  And I've been till this, I've been till this podcast. I halted that lie to this day. I was like, I don't know. I just went back and they're like, Matt, you gotta go.

• 3:22:21Jocko Willink?

  You have to go. Yup.

• 3:22:22Speaker 01

  There's no one else.

• 3:22:23Jocko Willink?

  Even they don't know you have a newborn baby. You're like, well, they do, but it's really important, you know?

• 3:22:27Speaker 01

  They don't care. It's the Navy's fault that they're doing this. And so I, I honestly, she always knew, but um, so I go back to this augment and um, it's another good one. I was a JTAC. And so they needed JTACs. And so yeah, I went out there with a handful of team five guys.

• 3:22:46Speaker 01

  Got a lot of, got a lot of more work and it was, I just never been in the area.

• 3:22:50Jocko Willink?

  Did you get to make some JTAC calls?

• 3:22:53Speaker 01

  No, honestly, no. We couple of firefights and couple of uh, like I had them like hot and ready. And then, cause this was also getting to the point, I think this was like 2011 or 12, like JTAC calls were getting real touchy. And so it was like base commanders had to approve collateral damage was extremely, we had to be extremely, extremely sure nothing was gonna happen. Which slowed the calls down. And sometimes by that time, we would have solved that problem.

• 3:23:20Jocko Willink?

  Yup, yup. Uh, and then what was after that?

• 3:23:24Speaker 01

  Um, well, on that deployment was extortion.

• 3:23:27Jocko Willink?

  Oh damn.

• 3:23:28Speaker 01

  And so that was where I went over with uh, Pittman and the guys from team five. And um, yeah, I re- I remember that. I remember when somebody told me, they're like, hey, Hilo went down. I'm like, who? And they were like, all of these guys. And I'm like, cool, which part of that? And they're like, no, all of them.

• 3:23:47Speaker 01

  And I had a friend in the teams, um, and I, his name was Joden. I go, where's Joden? And my buddy knew and he was like, he's on this other team. And I was like, okay, well, at least I have that one friend that I know is still alive. And so then I extended because that just went down. So I'm like, well, I'm not going back now. So that didn't go over well. Now like again, they're making me, you know? So I extended for another month out there and helped that turnover and just, you know? Try to do anything I could at that point.

• 3:24:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, man, it's freaking devastating. Yeah, that's uh, you know, when, when one, you know, you'll get word like that a SEAL got killed somewhere at some point. And you know, every SEAL is like holding their breath, waiting to hear the name of who it is. Cause there's a decent chance that you know, the dude, you know, if you're active duty in the teams, there's a decent chance if a team guy gets killed, there's a decent chance that you know him. It's not guaranteed. But man, when, when seventeen SEALs got killed, it was just like, oh, there's just, it's just awful. Just the awful, um, knowledge that there's 100% chance that some of these guys are your friends.

• 3:25:06Jocko Willink?

  And if not, three, four, five, 10. And obviously the guys that were their teammates, every single one of those guys. So that's freaking horrible, um, horrible scenario. Uh, so you, when you get done with that augment, you come back and so you're, when you did your third platoon, you were kind of like, you weren't the actual LPO. So now your next time, next time around, are you the, the LPO?

• 3:25:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm like the beginning LPO. So I did like the deployment LPO thing.

• 3:25:37Jocko Willink?

  Got it.

• 3:25:37Speaker 01

  And so now I come back, I'm full, full LPO, stand up a new platoon, new, new leadership, start another workup and just trying to get back into it.

• 3:25:52Jocko Willink?

  And how's that, uh, like, how's that being the actual freaking LPO for the first time where they're looking at you?

• 3:26:02Speaker 01

  I really enjoyed it. Like, there's, for me, I, I love being a SEAL. Like, I love it. I love everything about it. I love the tactics. Like, I love being a team guy. And so I kind of enjoyed it because it's another challenge. Like, like now I know they're watching me. They're grading me. And I, that pressure, I enjoy it. Like, you know, you, you were, you thrive on pressure sometimes, which I like that. Um, unfortunately, at the time I got a new boss that was my chief that had come from a different part of the SEAL teams. And so he wasn't so savvy on the tactics.

• 3:26:40Speaker 01

  And unfortunately, very quickly in training, they figured that out.

• 3:26:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Yeah. For guys, you know, what we call out of the loop in the teams, they, there's different jobs you can have in the teams that are not all directly related to being a, a SEAL, like a platoon SEAL. And if you spend a few years as not being a platoon SEAL, and then you get thrown into a leadership position as the platoon chief, it's going to be rough. And that's, you know, one of the things can really, really be a, some people just, they're, they're not going to be able to pull it off. So it happens.

• 3:27:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so he was with us for a little bit and it was a lot. And I mean, and the instructors were all my friends. And so they would be, you know, they're like, Hey, Matt, I see you're pulling a lot of weight. And I would go to them because I, I didn't know at the time. I had this leader that wasn't quite savvy and I knew other ones that had leaders that weren't savvy. And I'm like, how, how do I solve this problem? Like, and I'm not looking to do anything. I'm just like, how can I? And they're like, it's out of your hands, bro. There's nothing you're going to be able to do. And I was like, oh, check. That was my.

• 3:27:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Eventually the trade deck guys go talk to the, the team leadership.

• 3:27:50Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 3:27:50Jocko Willink?

  They talk to the master chief and go, Hey, this platoon chief you got, he should not be in that position. And when that happens, 99% of the time, it's going to be game over for that chief. And he'll get fired, maybe get recycled, you know, but it's, you know, or if it's a lieutenant, they'll talk to the commanding officer, but that's what happens. Yeah. That's the way it goes down.

• 3:28:07Speaker 01

  And he just, and it for him, I don't think it was the worst because he, he recycled back to where he came from. And I think he did find work there. And so it was a more comfortable area. I think he was trying something and it just didn't work out. Which consequently for us was good. Uh, one of my best friends that were one of the sister's kids uh, became the, uh, the chief of our platoon. And so we had a pretty tight relationship.

• 3:28:28Jocko Willink?

  So that was the chief LPO was you?

• 3:28:30Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 3:28:30Jocko Willink?

  The sister's kids were now running the show.

• 3:28:32Speaker 01

  The sister's kids were now in charge and which was funny because

• 3:28:36Jocko Willink?

  Freaking awesome.

• 3:28:36Speaker 01

  Because, uh, our ops chief on our Ramadi deployment was the SEA of us. So it was, yeah. Right?

• 3:28:44Jocko Willink?

  Pepper?

• 3:28:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:28:45Jocko Willink?

  Oh damn. Nice. Okay. Check.

• 3:28:50Jocko Willink?

  Dude, freaking pepper. Like pepper, you know, cause he was the ops chief. So I worked with pepper a lot. And one of the coolest things about pepper is like a little side story. So this is a guy that how, how long you think? When we were in Bruiser, he was a chief. So he'd probably been in the teams for like, Twelve something fifteen thirteen years, something like that. But like just a little side note. He would be my driver. And the reason he would be my driver is because he could do all the stuff a vehicle commander would do. And I wouldn't have to do any of it. And so it was just like, we just had this this like relationship of like we'd pull up to a spot and he just knew what I was gonna do. I didn't have to worry about anything.

• 3:29:32Jocko Willink?

  And he was just always my driver. And that meant he was like the vehicle commander. He would position the vehicles. He would do all that shit and I have to worry about a damn thing. So I would always just be like getting in we and it's, you know, you don't always get to drive with the same guy all the time unless you're the task unit commander, you know. Then you'd be like, hey, Pepper's driving for me. And he would just handle shit, just being the man. So that was your, that was your S E A. So that's a freaking awesome crew.

• 3:29:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, it was, it was super fun. And like you said, Pepper knew everything. So he was super hands off.

• 3:30:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:30:04Speaker 01

  And he would just kind of let us run.

• 3:30:06Jocko Willink?

  And where did you guys go on that deployment?

• 3:30:08Speaker 01

  So that, that deployment, we, we went to the Middle East, some, some areas that we have in the Middle East that we just occupy. And it was a miscalculation on my part is what I call it because even though I love the teams, they came to me before the deployment. They're like, do you want to go to Afghanistan? Or do you want to do counter piracy? And I was like, oh, yeah, it was, it was kind of hitting off. Do you remember around that twelve time for like their pirates were crazy? And so I'm like, this is the new frontier. And we talked about the team is chasing war.

• 3:30:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:30:38Speaker 01

  And I did that. And that paid off zero.

• 3:30:43Speaker 01

  We went to, uh, yeah, we went to this place in the Middle East and about zero happened.

• 3:30:49Jocko Willink?

  How, how was, uh, how was it in terms of like, you got the boys now and they're all fired up? And then you're like, hey, guess what we're gonna do? Nothing.

• 3:30:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. And this

• 3:30:59Jocko Willink?

  That can be a leadership challenge.

• 3:31:01Speaker 01

  Super leadership challenge. And this group wasn't bad because this group was, I mean, they, we had a lot of J sets in, in super cool places like they went to Jordan. I, I made chief on this, this deployment. So I didn't go anywhere. I did everything Pepper wanted me to do. But at the end of that, I will say Pepper made sure I had a pretty sweet deal. And so, um, I had a pretty good deal, but I didn't go on a lot of trips.

• 3:31:28Jocko Willink?

  And then, so your next, did you roll right into a platoon chief after that?

• 3:31:31Speaker 01

  Yep, I, from that, I immediately rolled into a platoon chief at Team Five.

• 3:31:36Jocko Willink?

  And how does it feel now to be the freaking god of the world of, what platoon was it?

• 3:31:42Speaker 01

  It was, we Bravo.

• 3:31:44Jocko Willink?

  So how did it feel to be god of Bravo Platoon?

• 3:31:46Speaker 01

  It was awesome. Like, you know, when they, they say for at least enlisted, like the culmination is like your chief platoon? For me, 100% because it was awesome. And we were built to go to Afghanistan. So I had another platoon of monsters. Right? Like these just awesome dudes that could operate all day long and we had great head shed if um, our, our SEA now was, have you ever seen um, Act of Valor? The chief in that? Yeah, he was my boss.

• 3:32:18Jocko Willink?

  Oh yeah, dude, freaking awesome, man.

• 3:32:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's a great guy. And so um, working for him was phenomenal.

• 3:32:24Jocko Willink?

  Supposed to have him on the podcast, I gotta get, oh yeah.

• 3:32:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, because he's freaking great, yep.

• 3:32:29Speaker 01

  He is, he is, he is one of the few people in my entire career that if someone were to say something negative about him, you immediately think they're effed up person.

• 3:32:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:32:40Speaker 01

  Because he is the most humble, the most like, nice guy you've ever met, but then at the same time can operate almost anyone under the table.

• 3:32:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:32:50Speaker 01

  So what, what, like, such a great person to be our SEA.

• 3:32:53Jocko Willink?

  Dude, he was a new guy. And his platoon chief was a friend of mine. And his platoon chief invited me to go, he was a Team Three, invited, he said, hey, can you come and teach my guys the basic of, the basics of jiu jitsu? And I'm like, yep. So I show up and we, I'm teaching him everything. Well, this dude we're talking about had trained before and he also boxed before. And he was a new guy and he's a bit, how tall is he? Six?

• 3:33:20Speaker 01

  Six five, six five.

• 3:33:21Jocko Willink?

  He's a big dude and a great athlete. And so I'm teaching him jiu jitsu and then we're like starting to roll. And uh, he catches his platoon chief in a freaking, and taps him out, "Bro, new guy stepping up to the plate." It was like, yo. It was pretty freaking funny. Uh, Jack, so you got a, so you got a, a great crew again?

• 3:33:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, phenomenal crew.

• 3:33:47Speaker 01

  We're doing our workup. The guys are crushing it. They're, they're, everyone's good at their job. And we get the word Afghanistan shuts down. And now what's almost-

• 3:33:57Jocko Willink?

  Sorry for saying that, everybody. I know it's, it's a very warped mentality for, for a normal person to hear, but you know, we trained to go to war. So, sorry about that, everybody.

• 3:34:11Speaker 01

  Devastating. And so what's worse than having a platoon go like going to an area where you make two pirates is having a platoon of monsters that think they're going to Afghanistan, that now you have to break that to them and then manage them.

• 3:34:27Speaker 01

  And so we, and then it got kind of weird because they're like, okay, we have this platoon that was supposed to go to Afghanistan. Where in the world do we put them? And it got like, do we, do we send them out at all? And I was like, oh my God, if you don't send these guys out, there's gonna be problems. They're gonna burn San Diego down. And um, yeah, we ended up heading to uh Guam.

• 3:34:52Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so check. And you just had to keep them occupied, try and keep them as busy as you can so they don't freaking just destroy the island?

• 3:35:00Speaker 01

  Oh yeah. No one was home at all for six months. Like we were in every country, doing every training mission that we could. And, and it was good, like, and just in leadership training because my LPO was running a crew. I was running a crew, the OIC and I, we were a phenomenal leadership couple. I love the OIC. And um, he had a crew and so we were all over the world essentially, just working with all these other militaries and just training, basically making the best we can of it.

• 3:35:30Jocko Willink?

  So that, what do you do when you get home from that deployment? You go back to trade it again, right?

• 3:35:33Speaker 01

  I went back to trade it and uh, my SCA wanted me, he was like, hey, what do you think about coming to land, land warfare? And at the time, there was a couple of ideas that I had I wanted, but the, we went, when we went through training, we went through the maritime block, it was like water and uh, honestly, I didn't think it was that good. And so I was like, hey, I'm thinking about taking this block. And he was like, I remember he's that deep voice, like, bro, bro, I want you to think about this. Because he's like, nobody cares about that block and all these other things. And I was like, okay. So I ended up talking to the mass chief, I ended up getting the block. And I-

• 3:36:11Speaker 01

  I started doing transformational change like we went back to the island. We started doing live fire Iads from OTB.

• 3:36:19Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 3:36:20Speaker 01

  And so like trying to bring some like, because the directive from the Admiral was, hey, the wars in the desert are slowing down. We need to get back to the water.

• 3:36:28Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 3:36:28Speaker 01

  And so I went full, full throttle.

• 3:36:31Jocko Willink?

  Chuck. And then how long were you over there for?

• 3:36:35Speaker 01

  I spent some time. So this was during this time, I, I got an SCA spot. I was supposed to go to team one.

• 3:36:43Speaker 01

  And then my wife got sick. She got this weird shoulder nerve thing that no doctor could figure out. And it completely like derailed my life. Like literally couldn't like move her arm like, she couldn't take care of the kids. And so I was like, I didn't know what to do. And so this is where NSW comes in, helps me out, gives me babysitters. Uh, Trey gives me time off to like solve this problem. And so like luckily we live in San Diego, seen some of the best doctors. It turns out she had this really obscure, small like nerve thing in her shoulder that can act up. If she, she has like skinny wrists and so it does something to the nerve work and basically shut her shoulder down. It goes to the other arms and she almost can't like lift them.

• 3:37:26Jocko Willink?

  Damn dude.

• 3:37:28Speaker 01

  And so.

• 3:37:30Jocko Willink?

  Is that skinny knees ever come into play? Cause Echo Charles has skinny knees. Does that cause unilateral, multilateral problems with you?

• 3:37:39Speaker 02

  No, I knew you were gonna say that too. So thank you for that.

• 3:37:42Jocko Willink?

  I had to, I had to, let's face it. So. So they figured it out. How long did it take to figure it out?

• 3:37:48Speaker 01

  A while, probably like four or five, four or five months.

• 3:37:52Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 3:37:52Speaker 01

  So it's, and the thing is during that four or five months, you're going over the worst case scenarios. I mean, they're testing for these horrible diseases that like, you're like, how is my life going to look? Like, am I going to be a single dad? Like it's.

• 3:38:05Jocko Willink?

  How many kids do you have at this point?

• 3:38:06Speaker 01

  Three.

• 3:38:07Jocko Willink?

  Damn.

• 3:38:08Speaker 01

  Or I'm sorry, no, two.

• 3:38:09Jocko Willink?

  Two at this point.

• 3:38:09Speaker 01

  Do I had two at this point? And, um, and so they figured it out and it starts, it's a process though to heal. And so luckily though, it's this thing, it can kind of come and go, but when it goes, I mean, years in between and it's like, it affects the shoulders. It's supposed to get better every time, but. It was the best scenario of the scenarios that we're looking at by a mile. However, having to deal with like, kind of repairing her and getting her better, like, I couldn't be an SCA. And so I bought some, a little more time being at Trade-Ed. This is where Jason, Jason came in and he, he was running it. And so he kind of like top covered me.

• 3:38:49Speaker 01

  And then this was at the time, um, I was, they need, they lost a Master Chief over at the center that runs BUDS. And so they're like, hey, we don't have a Master Chief. Uh, would you, do you want to go over there and run it?

• 3:39:01Jocko Willink?

  Run BUDS?

• 3:39:02Speaker 01

  Not, not BUDS. So like the center, so of ranges. So at the center, yeah, sorry. It runs BUDS. So at the center ranges, they're like, we don't have a Master Chief there. They, he just left and we're gapped like six months. Do you want to go be that guy? And I had time to like clean this up. So I was like, yeah, I have the time. By the time that's done, she'll be fine. We'll be running again. And, um, so I went over to center to, to run ranges, but I, I caveated it. I was like, I'll do it, but there's this obscure billet that I want. And it's, I'm going to go work with another unit. It's going to be like a two-year thing. And then after that's done, I'll come back SCA. And the powers that be agreed. They're like, hey, yeah, man, that's your unit.

• 3:39:45Speaker 01

  And so as we know with promises in the Navy.

• 3:39:50Jocko Willink?

  That don't always get kept.

• 3:39:52Speaker 01

  No. So I go over, I do my time. Uh, I train, I gotta do all this back work for this position. I do it. And the, and when it comes, the month it comes time to like get the package in to like start the process. Uh, they're like, hey, uh, one of the East Coast teams is going to take this billet. And it was just an apology.

• 3:40:12Speaker 01

  Hey, sorry, man. And I was like, all right. Well, so, and now this is also about the time where I was like, I'm coming up on 20. I'm starting to look at people like you out in the world. And I'm like, you know what? Maybe there's something out there for me. And, um, so yeah, by this, when I was a chief, I got my degree. And so, cause I thought, uh, you know, I've got kids and I'm, how am I going to make them get their degree if I don't have mine? So I got my degree while I was in Trade-Ed. I got an, I got another one. And so, but they were in like political science and things like that. And so as I was looking out, I was like, hey, maybe, maybe, maybe business school is the route.

• 3:40:58Speaker 01

  And so I was, as I was looking to get, you know, what I was going to do next, I was thinking about going, maybe work for the government. I had this one guy I was talking to, I'm like, I'm thinking business school and he's like, hey, UCLA has got a really good program.

• 3:41:10Speaker 01

  And so I started talking to Carlos, Carlos went to UCLA and so, yeah, so I applied there.

• 3:41:16Jocko Willink?

  And got in, no problem?

• 3:41:17Speaker 01

  Yep, got in, no issues and

• 3:41:20Jocko Willink?

  Did you, was it like, uh, did you go up there every day? Like, did you go up once a week? Like, how did that work?

• 3:41:25Speaker 01

  So I was in the executive program. So every other weekend for two years, I would go up there and like 12 hours a day, sit in class. Cause it's the same hour amount. And so, yeah, so I would drive up to LA on Fridays, come back on Sunday night. And I just like crushed myself.

• 3:41:43Jocko Willink?

  And then, uh, well, like, how, how long did that take? And when did you, what year did you retire?

• 3:41:49Speaker 01

  So I retired in 22. I started in 21. So I started the last year I was in the Navy. Cause last year in the Navy, I'm doing a lot of medical stuff. They gave me a lot of autonomy and basically all I needed was half the day off on Friday. And they were like, bro, no big deal. So my last year in the Navy, I started the school, I retired in 22.

• 3:42:11Jocko Willink?

  Good party at your retirement.

• 3:42:13Speaker 01

  Oh, man. Oh, man. People talk about that. Like that, that is, as my wife refers to it as a man wedding.

• 3:42:22Speaker 01

  And that if, if I, if I never find a retirement, uh, party as fun as that one, I'll be okay. Because I blew it out. I, I, somebody called me not that long ago and they're like, hey, um, I'm trying to do a retirement party. What did you spend? And I'm like, bro, you don't want to know.

• 3:42:39Jocko Willink?

  You don't want to know.

• 3:42:40Speaker 01

  And he's like, I'm, I'm thinking of spending and it was like X amount. And I was like, times price seven. And he was like, oh my God. And I was like, that's why you remember it.

• 3:42:52Speaker 01

  And so, yeah, the most epic. And it was funny because when I had that retirement party, I was a management consultant. And so it overlapped like with my terminal like so I'm like going in doing medical stuff and then working a team as a a management consultant so reverse a little bit during this time I'm getting out I have a one year down and I I want to be a consultant I want to de-risk myself from business so I started networking a lot I started meeting a lot of people and I got hired at a major consultancy as a strategy consultant and so it was kind of surreal like I was like terminal Navy I'm an actual strategy consultant working teams like literally the morning after my

• 3:43:36Speaker 01

  retirement I had to get on like a group call that morning I looked horrible get on a group call and like you know be like hey talk about numbers and and I'm just like holding on by threads

• 3:43:48Jocko Willink?

  I remember at your retirement party like there was a fight like a grappling match between people and I was like yeah and I'm standing there if I felt like just like I was like oh I'm tasking a commander again because like I'm checking the bouncers I'm like they're cool you know Michael you know these guys are friends hey this is just this is just friends this is all love over here you know it's just the way it is but I'm like thinking yeah man I did this for a long time

• 3:44:11Speaker 01

  I mean it should have felt because it was me and JP for most of it so it should have felt real real natural

• 3:44:17Jocko Willink?

  yeah it felt

• 3:44:20Jocko Willink?

  yeah here go uh yep this is the way it works you know get get some drinks in these boys and they turned 23 again

• 3:44:26Speaker 01

  I remember like and they left like I remember the party was supposed to be over at I think nine nine thirty and I think it was around midnight and the they just stayed open for us

• 3:44:36Jocko Willink?

  yeah it's freaking epic

• 3:44:37Speaker 01

  and I remember I remember this vividly is one of the bartenders like I want to wrestle and he came down and JP grabs his wrist and he's like I don't want to wrestle anymore like he was just just the man grab of the wrist he was immediately like I'm out I want no part of this and so he was he was done

• 3:44:53Jocko Willink?

  yeah dude in in uh in task unit bruiser Charlie Platoon you guys you guys acquired this freaking big giant teddy bear named laser

• 3:45:03Speaker 01

  laser

• 3:45:04Jocko Willink?

  and you guys made the new guys which primarily if I remember correctly was Biggles Ryan Jobe would be carrying that thing everywhere That, that thing is still in Charlie Platoon at SEAL Team Three. And he was at your retirement, like new guys from Charlie Platoon SEAL Team Three 2022 showed up with Laser. Not only to the retirement itself, but then to the damn, uh, party.

• 3:45:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:45:33Jocko Willink?

  And I was like, how freaking crazy is that tradition?

• 3:45:39Speaker 01

  Uh, that was, yeah, that was like one of the gifts from the dudes. And I remember they had Laser on the floor and I had a three year old daughter and she was running over it. And I was like,

• 3:45:46Jocko Willink?

  Do not.

• 3:45:46Speaker 01

  Under no circumstances are my daughters allowed to touch that bear.

• 3:45:50Jocko Willink?

  That bear has spent more time, um, in strip bars and other nefarious places in the world. That bear has seen things. That bear is worldly. So, yeah. Oh, check. Uh, so then you, you do this consultancy for a little while. At what point were you like, who'd you talk to? Carlos?

• 3:46:10Speaker 01

  So, uh, so Carlos was kind of like my, my into the civilian world like wizard. He was, he was ahead of me. He'd already done it. So he kind of taught me networking. He taught me like, hey, if you're going to get in there, nobody's going to help you, but yourself, this is how you do it. And so I kind of became like a networking wizard is just finding people at organizations I wanted to on LinkedIn, starting these conversations and basically getting myself in. He's, he's also one of the ones that I talked to that, you know, sold UCLA. So Carlos and I became like super tight during this period and, um, yeah, he, he helped me kind of network my way into consulting.

• 3:46:51Jocko Willink?

  And then how long did you do that before, before you started talking about coming to Ashland Front?

• 3:46:56Speaker 01

  I did that. So I did consulting for over a year and a half. And I remember. It sucked. It sucked. And it, so I got there and I'm like, it's gonna be great. You know, you've seen the movies of consultants, they're traveling, like this, you know, the nicest stuff. They're going first class, they're going everywhere. I didn't leave my house almost ever because this was post covid. And so what companies learned is they're like, oh, I can just make the consultant work from home. And the counter to that is I never stopped working. So I would start at seven and I would oftentimes be at 10. And I remember on one of my projects, I was on the phone with a managing director who lived on the east coast at 10pm my time. And that was like eye opening

• 3:47:39Speaker 01

  to me where I'm like, oh, this will never end. And then my, probably my biggest epiphany that I had being a management consultant is we were guns for hire, but it didn't really matter. Like, I was on a project and I was doing the 10 year projections for an energy company. And they didn't like what our conclusion was. And so they're like, we would like if this other energy would come out on top. And we did it. And that was the point where I was like, oh, it doesn't really matter. We're just gonna do with what you pay us for. Like, you're gonna sell this to your, whoever you have to sell it to, and it's not the best science, it's not even the best math,

• 3:48:21Speaker 01

  it's just the math that you wanted. And what they say about like, what do they say about data is, an analyst can interpret data, but a professional can manipulate data. And that's what we could do. And so that's when I kind of really started to like lose the luster. And about this time, Carlos was really kind of in my ear. He was like, hey, man, I would, because I would, I would call him kind of like, cry to Carlos. Is I was like, you know, I was like, hey, man, if you like, you know, I'd be on these meetings with, it just all this stuff was going on. And I was like, bro, did you deal with this? And he was like, talk me through it, you know? And then he was like, hey, why don't you think about coming over here? And then without me knowing, he started to lay the groundwork. And he's like, just FYI, I've started talking to people. And that segwayed me into coming over here at Echelon Front.

• 3:49:07Jocko Willink?

  And then what did you come to muster? What'd you do first to get the intro to Echelon Front?

• 3:49:12Speaker 01

  And so before I left the Navy, I did some FTXs with JP, just being one of the role players. And then I came to a muster.

• 3:49:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, so then you you you show up and then we kind of have a process in place to make sure that, you know, you understand what's happening. You do a bunch of briefs, you know, make sure you understand all the all the principles, which obviously you had a big leg up because you worked in trade at with me, you're in tasking a producer with me and life like you. You had a big leg up on knowing what you were doing. And then, yeah, we just have a good just to make sure that you know what you're doing. You get out in the field with the with the clients and whatnot. So freaking awesome, man. And you're digging it?

• 3:49:54Speaker 01

  I love it. I love it. It's awesome. Like, yeah, it's it's one of those things where like I get at like true enjoyment. Like now I was on site with like a client yesterday and there was one, you know, the guy who is the arms crossed, legs crossed, like he's he's the non bod in one. And then when you see that by the end of the day where he's one of my most bought in people.

• 3:50:16Jocko Willink?

  Totally.

• 3:50:17Speaker 01

  And I was you're like, oh, I love that. I love when that happens. And so it's it's awesome.

• 3:50:22Jocko Willink?

  Yep. Yeah. Well, it's been awesome to, I mean, it's let's face it, dude, you want to work with dudes you want to work with. Like, you don't want to work with dudes that you don't want to work with. So we kind of have, you know, the people we want to work with and we make shit happen. Right on, man. So where can people find you right now? Obviously, you're on LinkedIn, Matthew Hasby. If you're interested in Matt coming to work with your company, go to slumfront.com. You're also on the Instagram, right?

• 3:50:51Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 3:50:52Jocko Willink?

  What is it?

• 3:50:52Speaker 01

  Matt underscore Hasby.

• 3:50:55Jocko Willink?

  Matt underscore Hasby. That's where you're at. People can find you there.

• 3:51:00Jocko Willink?

  Echo Charles, you got any questions?

• 3:51:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, where was your retirement party?

• 3:51:06Speaker 01

  I think it was called Ocean 31.

• 3:51:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, Ocean, it's in it's in.

• 3:51:12Speaker 01

  It's in Ibiza. Yeah.

• 3:51:13Speaker 02

  And what'd you spend? It's really sounded like you didn't want to disclose it, but we're gonna need those numbers.

• 3:51:19Speaker 01

  About 15K.

• 3:51:21Jocko Willink?

  Dude, when you spend 15K in IB?

• 3:51:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:51:24Jocko Willink?

  Bro, you know what I'm saying?

• 3:51:25Speaker 02

  Yes, I do know what you're saying.

• 3:51:26Jocko Willink?

  Buffet, open bar, like the whole nine yards. Idiots, yeah, grappling matches, bouncers getting paid off, like what?

• 3:51:34Speaker 01

  It was, yeah, it was, and I mean, that wasn't, and that was, and the tabs at the end of the night were crazy. Crazy.

• 3:51:42Speaker 02

  Hey, man, that's good. Good to see you, brother.

• 3:51:45Jocko Willink?

  Anything else?

• 3:51:46Speaker 02

  Actually, people don't know this, I've known Matt Hasby longer than the same amount of time I'd say that I've known JP. So since like 2008-ish.

• 3:51:57Jocko Willink?

  From what, from Jiu Jitsu?

• 3:51:58Speaker 02

  From Jiu Jitsu, yeah.

• 3:52:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, right when we came over here, yeah, you and I were rolling like early in the days.

• 3:52:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:52:05Jocko Willink?

  When did you and I start rolling hard?

• 3:52:07Speaker 02

  Like maybe a year before that.

• 3:52:09Jocko Willink?

  Before that?

• 3:52:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, like right before Throwdown.

• 3:52:12Jocko Willink?

  Oh, that's right, that's right, that's kind of when, when you appeared in my world as a viable frequent training partner.

• 3:52:20Speaker 02

  But around the same time, yeah, totally separate though, which is interesting.

• 3:52:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, but you didn't, at what point did you realize that we worked together?

• 3:52:29Speaker 02

  Um, I don't know, like freaking.

• 3:52:30Jocko Willink?

  Like six months.

• 3:52:31Speaker 02

  Six months ago, yeah, for real, yeah.

• 3:52:33Jocko Willink?

  It's funny, like when I, when like the book came out or whatever, I started being on podcasts, there was people in the Jiu Jitsu world that had no idea of anything else that I did.

• 3:52:42Speaker 02

  Actually, when I, I remember when I, when I realized you guys worked together, it was when you came to the muster, like that time, that muster, I'm pretty sure it was that muster that you're talking about, where when you introduced him, where you're like, oh yeah, he has a scar on his face, makes him look more handsome because he fell through the roof. And I was like, bro, Matt, Matt has been with you that time or whatever. I was like, alright, cool, man, good.

• 3:53:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that is, that is weird. I used to have a real separation between church and state.

• 3:53:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:53:08Jocko Willink?

  Like I had like the teams.

• 3:53:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:53:11Jocko Willink?

  And then I had, you know, jujitsu.

• 3:53:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:53:14Jocko Willink?

  And my family was more wrapped up in jujitsu. Man, back in the day, they do a better job now, but like when I was in, dude, your, your family was not engaged in the team activities. Like there wasn't, like my wife didn't hang around with the other wives. My kids didn't hang around with the other kids. Like it was very much more isolated. They do, it's totally different now. Like now they do like, they bring the families together and everything's cool. They do a much better job of that. You probably saw like the transition of that.

• 3:53:41Speaker 02

  Towards the very end, yeah.

• 3:53:42Jocko Willink?

  But, uh, yeah. So I had people in the jujitsu community that just had no like clue

• 3:53:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:53:49Jocko Willink?

  of anything that I did in the military. I wasn't like, what do you do? I didn't wear like trident hats or anything like that. No one did any of that shit.

• 3:53:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:53:57Jocko Willink?

  You know what I mean? So no one really knew.

• 3:53:59Speaker 02

  You did a good job in that because a lot of the guys that I know, like from the teams happened to work with you. I never knew it. Like a lot of them, JP, Jimmy May, um, obviously Matt Hasby, Leif.

• 3:54:14Jocko Willink?

  Hmm.

• 3:54:15Speaker 02

  Kind of everybody really.

• 3:54:16Jocko Willink?

  You didn't know that what?

• 3:54:19Speaker 02

  That you guys worked together. Like I know, I know all them separate from you.

• 3:54:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:54:24Speaker 02

  And then I realized later like, oh wait, you guys know each other? How do you guys know each other?

• 3:54:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:54:28Speaker 02

  Oh, I guess you guys just work together back in the day.

• 3:54:32Jocko Willink?

  Uh, Matt, you got any other questions?

• 3:54:34Speaker 01

  No, Matt, no, all good.

• 3:54:35Jocko Willink?

  Well, any closing thoughts, Matt?

• 3:54:42Speaker 01

  No, I mean, nothing, nothing that, uh, stands out. I mean,

• 3:54:48Speaker 01

  honestly, like, I will say as far as like a career in jujitsu, I was looking at it and from like where you say like you separated, you are one, you have it and without actively trying, like one of the like guiding people in my life, just by like having been around. Because like when it was funny, when you talk about your family, like keeping them away, you did that, I did that. Cause I learned it from you. Jiu Jitsu, you started that, I started that. Or you didn't start, you were doing it, I started it. And you're actually the one who kept me in the Navy. You probably don't remember, I was gonna get out like in 2007 timeframe.

• 3:55:24Jocko Willink?

  Did I ask you for a business plan?

• 3:55:25Speaker 01

  No, you know, I only know my plan was, I was gonna go be the ultimate fighter. It was like, people weren't awesome at it yet. And I was like, pretty decent. And I was like, I think I can make a run for this. And you and I were sitting at boxing club and we're up against a wall. We just got done rolling. And you were like, you started grilling me on how much you think I think people make. And in my 23, 24 year old mind, I'm like, million dollars. And you were like, you smoke checked me real quick. And then you're like, oh yeah, you break your leg, there's no insurance now. Now what are you gonna do? You can't work. And you're like, how hard is your life? What do you do? You shoot guns? You go on cool training trips and then you deploy and go kill bad guys? And I was like, yeah, it was pretty much it. And you're like, yeah, I think it's pretty decent. And I'm like, no, I agree. That's what, you're right. That's good.

• 3:56:09Jocko Willink?

  The, back in those days, it's not even, it's better now, but I probably just rolled out with figures. Cause like at that time, I was cornering guys in UFC's. I knew how much money they made. It's like, I probably said something like, oh, you know, the guy that you just saw fight on the main card?

• 3:56:25Speaker 01

  On TV.

• 3:56:25Jocko Willink?

  On TV, on a pay-per-view, on UFC? Yeah. You wanna know how much money he made for that fight? 12 and 12. What's 12 and 12? 12,000 to show up, 12,000 to win. That's kinda cool. No, that's $24,000 for a year. Or for six months. And by the way, he's gotta pay his food. He's gotta pay his trainer. He's gotta pay his manager. He's gotta pay his coaches. It's totally ridiculous. So yeah, that was some good advice right there.

• 3:56:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:56:55Jocko Willink?

  And you know, your timing, it would've been close. Like, you're right, at that time, being where you were in Jiu Jitsu, you have good striking, being where you would've been like, you probably would've been kinda in the mix. I don't know if you would've been necessarily ahead. You would've been, you would've been ahead of the mix on like the lower level circuits. You would've gone out and won, you would've gone out and won four like, local, like, not just local, but like, four, not UFC things. Like you would've won some freaking King of the Cage or some of those things. You would've gone out and won three or four of those things. Cause you were ahead of the, of the masses. But as far as like UFC, you would've been. Probably just a little bit behind the masses.

• 3:57:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:57:39Jocko Willink?

  And dude, timing at that timeframe, timing was really, really important. If you, you gotta be, people that, you had the chance back then to just be ahead of people.

• 3:57:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:57:51Jocko Willink?

  Just ahead and have like game that other people didn't have. Like Jeff Higgs. Jeff Higgs, he was a SEAL, he got out, he just did jujitsu, but he was really good at jujitsu. Decent striking and he was absolutely, at the time, he was ahead. Like if he would have gone in UFC, he could have won some really big fights because he was just better than most people were at the time. It ain't like that no more. And at the time when you were there, it was like, it wasn't quite like that anymore. So probably a good call. Probably a good call that you didn't get out. And that's the other thing is people, you know, you don't realize, you forget about the fact that when you're in the military, you get a paycheck every two weeks. Think about how crazy that is, dude.

• 3:58:36Jocko Willink?

  Like you get a paycheck every two weeks. Like, oh, you go on leave, you go on, you go, you do a hard job, cool, you get your pay, but you also do some jobs where you're just not doing jack shit. You're like still getting a paycheck every two weeks. And that's a thing that you, that you forget about a little bit. And so a lot of times, probably as I got a little bit more advanced, people would come and tell me they're getting out. And I was like, cool, man, meet me next week, tell me your business plan. What do you mean business plan? Just tell me how you're gonna pay your bills. Just tell me what your bills are and how you're gonna pay them. And we'll, we'll run that math. And if you got a good plan, cool, man, I support it. If you don't have a good plan, let's figure out how to get a plan before you get out. Cause if you're determined to get out, well, you shouldn't be in. But if you're like, well, I think, you know, I'm gonna go out and I'm gonna, you know, I wanna do this. What do you wanna do? What does that pay?

• 3:59:22Jocko Willink?

  What's your mortgage? What's your rent? What's your car payment? Oh, you got kids? What's that insurance look like since you're not retiring? You know how much your insurance costs for a civilian? Like it's expensive when you got two kids. Like it's a mortgage payment in some cases. So yeah, those are important things to think about. Anything else?

• 3:59:42Speaker 01

  Nope.

• 3:59:43Jocko Willink?

  So we are training jujitsu, right?

• 3:59:45Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 3:59:46Jocko Willink?

  So how long you been, are you brown belt?

• 3:59:47Speaker 01

  No, I've been.

• 3:59:48Jocko Willink?

  You've been a perennial purple belt?

• 3:59:50Speaker 01

  Perennial purple belt. I got slowed way down when I broke my rib at that one training. That dude, that dude that broke my rib. And that, that took me out and then I just got. Excuses.

• 4:00:04Jocko Willink?

  Excuses. Uh, do you, do you train right now consistently?

• 4:00:08Speaker 01

  I haven't. I'm, I'm doing everything I can, but I have such a weird schedule and then I'm trying like, and then where I, like my son is on the precipice where I want to like start to take him in again, but like,

• 4:00:21Jocko Willink?

  How old?

• 4:00:21Speaker 01

  Thirteen.

• 4:00:22Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 4:00:23Speaker 01

  And so, but like, our big thing is like, I get home Saturday, we're surfing, we're surfing somewhere. And so that's, I kind of make that a thing. And so then it's like, then I got a daughter. What am I doing with her? I'm rock climbing. Cause she's like big into rock climbing. And so then it's, so it's like, while also I gotta find time to just like be at home.

• 4:00:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 4:00:41Speaker 01

  And so it's gonna happen. I just have to like,

• 4:00:44Jocko Willink?

  And I know you live close, closer to this victory, the victory that burned. So give us a couple more months. We'll have this victory back open and then I will, uh, make it part of your echelon front job to be here training.

• 4:00:59Speaker 01

  Perfect, perfect.

• 4:01:01Jocko Willink?

  Uh, when we're training, we're gonna need fuel. Echo Charles, what I recommend, I'll tell you what I recommend. Jocko Fuel, I noticed you drank, uh, a milk.

• 4:01:09Speaker 02

  Two more.

• 4:01:10Jocko Willink?

  Two milks already today. Sixty grams of protein.

• 4:01:12Speaker 02

  One hydrate.

• 4:01:13Jocko Willink?

  And one hydrate. That's what you're into today.

• 4:01:15Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 4:01:16Jocko Willink?

  Uh, sixty grams of protein is not bad.

• 4:01:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:01:19Jocko Willink?

  It's pretty good.

• 4:01:20Speaker 02

  We try to avoid going.

• 4:01:21Jocko Willink?

  Did you squat today?

• 4:01:22Speaker 02

  No, that's it's planned.

• 4:01:24Jocko Willink?

  Oh, squat is coming today. You haven't squatted. I squatted today.

• 4:01:28Speaker 02

  Okay. Yeah, yeah. You got that early schedule.

• 4:01:30Jocko Willink?

  Yep. So do you already lift today?

• 4:01:33Speaker 01

  I did.

• 4:01:35Jocko Willink?

  What did you lift?

• 4:01:37Speaker 01

  Shoulders and arms today.

• 4:01:38Jocko Willink?

  Gun show, gun show. Echo, Echo Charles. Have you, have you taken any protein? Have you eaten protein today yet?

• 4:01:46Speaker 01

  Uh, no.

• 4:01:48Jocko Willink?

  Okay. We call that going catabolic. Is that a problem, Echo Charles?

• 4:01:51Speaker 02

  Well, you know, the, the new research comes out where, you know, it's the, the anabolic window that we've once, you know, grown accustomed to being, um, servants to, isn't quite as quickly to close as we thought. So you might be good.

• 4:02:03Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 4:02:04Jocko Willink?

  We're all right there. What, how, what's the new research say? How much time do we have?

• 4:02:07Speaker 02

  Well, I thought was, what we all thought was within that hour of being finished lifting, that's the anabolic window. That's where you, where you body wants all the protein and all the nutrients or whatever. But as it turns out, it can go long, a lot longer.

• 4:02:21Jocko Willink?

  Okay. Twelve?

• 4:02:23Speaker 02

  Twelve hours, yeah. From what I understand, yeah.

• 4:02:27Jocko Willink?

  Are you hungry when you get done working out?

• 4:02:29Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 4:02:29Jocko Willink?

  Are you hungry when you get done working out? See dude, I'm I'm not. It takes me like a couple hours to get hungry when I get done working out.

• 4:02:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:02:37Jocko Willink?

  And I I've always viewed that as bad, but apparently the new data suggests maybe I don't have to feel bad about it.

• 4:02:41Speaker 02

  No, no.

• 4:02:42Jocko Willink?

  Got twelve hours, twelve hours?

• 4:02:45Speaker 02

  Uh, look, I'm not gonna go concrete twelve hours, but it's way like it could be longer than twelve hours.

• 4:02:51Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 4:02:51Speaker 02

  I think it's like within the day or something like that.

• 4:02:54Jocko Willink?

  Sure.

• 4:02:55Speaker 02

  I don't know. You know how guys are fasting and doing all this stuff or whatever? Because like that's a lot of times part of the research where there's like, hey, what about these fasting? How does this fasting, um, you know, how does that fit into like people's progress in fitness and stuff like that? I mean, you know, but there's different kinds of fitness. There's bodybuilding. There's like strength training. There's endurance. There's, you know, all kinds of stuff, so you never know.

• 4:03:14Jocko Willink?

  Well, you know, it's a good time to align all this. Def reset.

• 4:03:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:03:17Jocko Willink?

  We're doing the def reset. Have you heard of def reset?

• 4:03:19Speaker 02

  I have.

• 4:03:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Um, def reset, we're kicking that off January first, but actually you have to kick it off prior to.

• 4:03:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:03:27Jocko Willink?

  You have to kick it off prior to the def. Will this even be helped by the commencement of def reset?

• 4:03:33Speaker 02

  Uh, well, yeah, I think this will help for sure, but this is coming out after.

• 4:03:37Jocko Willink?

  Okay, well, if you're not in def reset right now, go get the app. Go to the def reset dot com, get the app, get in the game. Uh, and if you need fuel, check out jocko fuel dot com. We got protein, which is freaking tasty. We got hydrate, which is also tasty and and freaking good for you. We got what? Energy drink? I've drank two of them today. Uh, Matt Hasby had to turn down a go prior to the podcast because he's like, dude,

• 4:04:07Jocko Willink?

  I have enough energy and I don't want to talk too fast and get too crazy. The ADHD amplifier.

• 4:04:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, it might be setting fires later on.

• 4:04:17Speaker 02

  You don't need that.

• 4:04:18Jocko Willink?

  We don't have none of that. So, yeah, jocko fuel, check it out, jocko fuel dot com. We got joint warfare, super krill, the whole, everything that you need. You can get it at Walmart. You can get it at, I, by the way, almost occasionally. I've been toying with pre-workout. Now, your old school pre-workout, are you still in the game?

• 4:04:36Speaker 02

  I don't do pre-workout currently, but you know, I, I guess you'd call it cycling on and off.

• 4:04:41Jocko Willink?

  Do you ever, okay, so where I'm at is I don't want to rely upon it.

• 4:04:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:04:46Jocko Willink?

  But are there times where I know that I should step it up in the workout and I know there's one way to do that?

• 4:04:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:04:53Jocko Willink?

  Hit that pre-workout.

• 4:04:53Speaker 02

  Hundred percent. And I think that's a good way to do it.

• 4:04:56Jocko Willink?

  Good way, right?

• 4:04:56Speaker 02

  Cause if you keep that in mind where you don't rely, because that's really the issue. You really rely on it and you're like, oh, I can do it. And then when you don't take it, you feel like, oh, and all this stuff. But if you're like, hey, no, I'm gonna.

• 4:05:05Jocko Willink?

  I'm dragging ass. I got a big workout coming.

• 4:05:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:05:09Jocko Willink?

  I want to get it done right.

• 4:05:10Speaker 02

  Or even when you're just like, I'm in a mood for a boost. You just freaking roll it in, but don't be dependent on it. Yes, I agree.

• 4:05:16Jocko Willink?

  The pre-workout is a legitimate.

• 4:05:20Jocko Willink?

  You feel it. You're gonna feel it.

• 4:05:22Speaker 02

  Bro, you're gonna feel it.

• 4:05:23Jocko Willink?

  You're gonna feel it.

• 4:05:24Speaker 02

  Actually, the.

• 4:05:25Jocko Willink?

  Bro, my, my daughter, my middle daughter, Rana.

• 4:05:28Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm. Yeah, hell yeah.

• 4:05:29Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, she trains a lot.

• 4:05:30Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 4:05:31Jocko Willink?

  And she trains a lot of jiu-jitsu. She lifts all the time. And she was going out with some of her friends for Halloween.

• 4:05:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:05:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 4:05:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know the protocol.

• 4:05:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, she took pre-workout to go out with her friends and they all took it.

• 4:05:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:05:44Jocko Willink?

  And they were like freaking wired.

• 4:05:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:05:46Jocko Willink?

  I was like, are my children and her friends on meth? What's going on? So, is that, you used to do that?

• 4:05:51Speaker 02

  Yeah. So, and, and it had, okay. So, you know, back in the day, my first video I ever made.

• 4:05:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, one of pretty much my first video I ever made, it was on a, we went on a cruise, right? For, remember Terry?

• 4:06:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 4:06:03Speaker 02

  Big sexy. So, it was his birthday, went on a cruise. So, I made a little video montage of it and you can see in there, I'm loading up the pre-workout for the cruise. There's no gym on the, I mean, not that I know of, but yeah, oh yeah. That's part of the gig.

• 4:06:16Jocko Willink?

  All right. Well, there's all kinds of good stuff. You need it. You need some supplementation. Go to jockofuel.com. You can also get it at Walmart, at Wawa, Vitamin Shop GNC, Military Commissaries, Hanaford's Dash Stores in Maryland, Wakefern. Shop right, HEB down in Texas. I was just talking to someone, it's like, dude, I am all over that HEB. So, HEB in Texas, Meyer in the Midwest, Wegmans out on the East Coast, Harris Teeter, Lifetime Fitness, Shields. Small gyms everywhere. A lot of people are into that. There's a lot of, so small gyms everywhere, whether it's CrossFit gyms, jiu-jitsu gyms, uh, uh, strong man gyms. I don't know, whatever kind of gym you got. Chiropractors are carrying it.

• 4:06:51Speaker 02

  Hell yeah.

• 4:06:52Jocko Willink?

  Uh, ice bath places are carrying it, everybody. And if you don't carry it, or if you want your place to carry it, email J F sales at jockofield.com, we can hook it up. Also, since we're doing jujitsu, we need to wear American made jujitsu clothing, jujitsu gees. Go to originusa.com and you can get jujitsu gees. But you can't wear your jujitsu gi to the market.

• 4:07:15Speaker 02

  No.

• 4:07:15Jocko Willink?

  Can't wear it to the club.

• 4:07:17Speaker 02

  Or to the retirement.

• 4:07:18Jocko Willink?

  Or the retirement scenario. Yeah.

• 4:07:22Jocko Willink?

  AP are gonna freaking throw it down.

• 4:07:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, you can't wear that shit.

• 4:07:25Jocko Willink?

  Uh, so, originusa.com, jeans, boots,

• 4:07:31Jocko Willink?

  t-shirts, hoodies, hunt gear, rain jacket, lightweight jacket, insulated jacket, vest. You wear a vest?

• 4:07:41Speaker 02

  No, I don't wear a vest.

• 4:07:42Jocko Willink?

  Seems like Hawaii would be unfamiliar with vests in general.

• 4:07:45Speaker 02

  I'm very unfamiliar with that. I think I've worn a vest of some sort, probably twice in my whole life.

• 4:07:50Jocko Willink?

  I, yeah, well, for what reasons?

• 4:07:52Speaker 02

  Like, you know, the three-piece suit.

• 4:07:54Jocko Willink?

  Oh, okay.

• 4:07:54Speaker 02

  Like a friend's wedding, Terry Big Sexy's wedding.

• 4:07:57Jocko Willink?

  I was about to say Terry Big Sexy, it seems like he would be wearing a vest at some point.

• 4:08:01Speaker 02

  That's the wedding I wore the vest to.

• 4:08:02Jocko Willink?

  Have you ever worn a vest before?

• 4:08:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, three-piece suit.

• 4:08:06Jocko Willink?

  Three-piece suit. What about like the, cause we, at Origin, we just came out with like the puffy, you know, like a puffy little vest?

• 4:08:13Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah, I haven't worked it.

• 4:08:14Jocko Willink?

  I will say I've been posting up in that thing quite a bit, cause it's nice, man. First of all, it's small. And it's just like, keeps your upper body warm, cause your arms don't necessarily get cold, right? It's more like your upper body that can get cold, that can be problematic. Uh, anyways, guess where it's made?

• 4:08:31Speaker 02

  America.

• 4:08:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, made in America. Not by a communist, not by a slave, but just by a good American person that's out there making a living with a skill. So that's what we're doing. Originusa.com, check it out.

• 4:08:42Speaker 02

  It's true. Also, Jocko's store, called Jocko's store. Are you familiar with this, Matt Asb? I am aware. Discipline equals freedom. When you wanna represent that, that's where you can get your shirts and hats and hoodies and stuff like that. Um, also, good. Talking about good. For things that happen that are bad, there's some good that comes out of it. Hey, I, I saw the video. Anyway, you wanna represent that, you can get it there as well. Also, there's a thing called the Shirt Locker, which is a new subscription, or it's a subscription scenario for new designs every month.

• 4:09:11Jocko Willink?

  You know, those designs are always a little bit different. I have a vision right now.

• 4:09:15Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 4:09:15Jocko Willink?

  Can you hear me out?

• 4:09:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:09:16Jocko Willink?

  I have a vision. You ever seen like the? What are those, those not cabbage patch kids, but they were like cards and they had like junkyard kids?

• 4:09:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, garbage pale.

• 4:09:27Jocko Willink?

  Garbage pale kids. In my mind.

• 4:09:29Speaker 02

  Remember that Matt has?

• 4:09:30Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 4:09:30Jocko Willink?

  In my mind right now, I have a vision of a garbage pale kid, but it's little Matt. He's like starting fires.

• 4:09:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, so it has to have like an almost like a rhyming name or a name that starts with like M? Yeah, or H maybe.

• 4:09:46Jocko Willink?

  Like, like Matt Mayhem.

• 4:09:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:09:48Jocko Willink?

  Something like that.

• 4:09:49Speaker 02

  Hazardous has.

• 4:09:50Jocko Willink?

  Hazardous hasby.

• 4:09:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:09:52Jocko Willink?

  And he's sitting there like with fires and explosions and he's like a, like a happy little kid.

• 4:09:57Speaker 02

  Little arsonist kid.

• 4:09:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, very happy about the whole thing.

• 4:10:00Speaker 02

  I think that design is 100% approved.

• 4:10:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, so those are the kind of things that you might see.

• 4:10:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:10:06Jocko Willink?

  With the shirt locker, if you want to check that out. Also check out primalbeef.com or coloradocraftbeef.com if you need steak. What's the best cut of steak in your opinion?

• 4:10:16Speaker 01

  New York.

• 4:10:18Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 4:10:19Speaker 01

  That, yeah.

• 4:10:19Jocko Willink?

  Okay, we have a contrarian here.

• 4:10:20Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 4:10:21Jocko Willink?

  We have a problem. What's up? Ribeye is not your, not your jam?

• 4:10:26Speaker 01

  Wagyu. I like ribeye. I like the marbling, but why I like New York, it's just a really lean cut.

• 4:10:32Jocko Willink?

  So you like the lean cut? So you don't like the, you don't like the fat?

• 4:10:36Speaker 01

  I do, but I find it's inconsistent. And so depending on where I go, sometimes it can be too fatty or whatever. What I, I just, New York is consistent all the time. I like it lean. I don't like filet mignon. But that New York for me is perfect.

• 4:10:51Speaker 02

  Then you get that, uh, what's that duck thing that we got?

• 4:10:54Speaker 01

  Foie gras?

• 4:10:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, you get that for the consistent fat.

• 4:10:57Jocko Willink?

  What's the thing about, what is foie gras? Is it force fed?

• 4:10:59Speaker 01

  Bad. It, it can be force fed. All right, let's, there's just caveat.

• 4:11:03Jocko Willink?

  Isn't this like a, a pita?

• 4:11:05Speaker 01

  It wa, it was. Now they can also just eat and get fatty duck liver on their own duck lives.

• 4:11:10Speaker 02

  Of course.

• 4:11:11Speaker 01

  And that's what I assume all the ducks that I eat are, but it's fatty duck liver and it is like butter.

• 4:11:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, you put it on steak.

• 4:11:17Jocko Willink?

  Have you had this before?

• 4:11:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, the first time was with them.

• 4:11:20Jocko Willink?

  Bro, I'm the wor, I'm the lamest eater. Like I just like.

• 4:11:24Speaker 02

  Super basic.

• 4:11:25Jocko Willink?

  Super basic dude. Anything that has a different language in the name of the thing, I'm pretty much, it's not something I'm interested in.

• 4:11:31Speaker 02

  I'm telling you, that's what I thought too. And then they're explaining it to me. I'm like, bro, you're just trying to be fancy, like whatever. And you're really eating. Carlos was like, hey, just try it.

• 4:11:38Jocko Willink?

  Carlos was in it?

• 4:11:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's the one who's kind of turned.

• 4:11:41Speaker 01

  Loves it. He's also a big New York guy.

• 4:11:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, but he but he said, yeah, you do it. If you don't eat it, I'll eat it. So I'm like, all right, whatever. And bro, I think I think you'd like that, too. Maybe just not saying the the name.

• 4:11:51Speaker 01

  Problem is, once you start, though, now you know.

• 4:11:54Speaker 02

  Go back.

• 4:11:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, now you know.

• 4:11:56Jocko Willink?

  They don't maybe look into. Don't some places not serve foie gras because it's like, uh?

• 4:12:00Speaker 01

  They used to.

• 4:12:01Jocko Willink?

  The pita thing?

• 4:12:01Speaker 01

  They used to, and now it's kind of like, I don't know how.

• 4:12:04Jocko Willink?

  They figured out a way to make it more.

• 4:12:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, how? Because if you you can see some videos, a little rough on how they make that. Like, they would put tubes in the ducks and they're just like pumping them full of food. But now I think they do it in a way that they just kind of promote the ducks to eat. They get really fatty duck liver and then they do the foie gras. Foie gras.

• 4:12:19Jocko Willink?

  Okay, and you're down with it?

• 4:12:21Speaker 01

  Well, my god.

• 4:12:22Jocko Willink?

  If you want to put that stuff, what they is it like you spread it on the steak?

• 4:12:26Speaker 01

  It's it's a liver. You put it on the steak and then I just I'll cut a piece off with my steak. Just.

• 4:12:30Speaker 02

  You can include it in the bite kind of a thing.

• 4:12:33Jocko Willink?

  Okay, well, if you want to include some steak with your stuff, fatty duck liver, go to ColoradoCraftBeef.com, go to PrimalBeef.com and get you some of the good stuff. The the tasty steak from awesome American companies, awesome people, awesome companies, awesome freaking steak, ColoradoCraftBeef.com, PrimalBeef.com. Subscribe to the podcast, subscribe to Jocko Underground, subscribe to the YouTube channels. Check out Psychological Warfare, Flipside Canvas, Dakota Meyer, Making Cool Stuff to Hang on Your Wall. I've written a bunch of books about leadership. Matt has a starring role in quite a few chapters. So, uh, near death Matt, that's another thing, right?

• 4:13:13Jocko Willink?

  Could do another T-shirt with Matt like falling from a high altitude while being shot at, you know, from multiple directions. Yeah.

• 4:13:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, we'll come up with something.

• 4:13:24Jocko Willink?

  So written a bunch of books, bunch of kids books. You read kids read the Warrior Kid books?

• 4:13:28Speaker 01

  Oh, they love it. My daughter's favorite books Warrior Kid.

• 4:13:30Jocko Willink?

  That's what I like to hear.

• 4:13:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:13:31Jocko Willink?

  That's freaking outstanding. Yeah, it's so so awesome to hear that from from people. And I was at a. An event the other day with some bunch of team guys and they were fired up, man. So awesome. Their kids are reading, your kids should be reading it. Your neighbor, your neighbor's kid, that little rascal kid over there that's setting the bushes on fire. Give that kid the warrior kid book, like get him on a better path in life. So check those out. A course about face, Smiking the Dragons. You guys know the deal. Echelon Front, you're going to talk about it today. The leadership principles that we learned in combat, the leadership principles that we taught so that other SEALs could perform on the battlefield. They're not only effective for combat.

• 4:14:15Jocko Willink?

  They're effective for any leadership endeavor. So if you want to help inside your organization, go to echelonfront.com. And we also have events, talked about the muster. We have FTXs, we have the council, we have all kinds of events that you can come to, or you can hire us as a consultant, so you will come in. Echelonfront.com, check those out. Also, we have an online training platform. It's the Extreme Ownership Academy. Like I was talking earlier about leaders and how leadership is a skill. Well, it is, just like jujitsu is a skill. And just like shooting a machine gun is a skill. When, when Matt did 20 minute fam with a machine gun,

• 4:14:59Jocko Willink?

  and then all of a sudden he gets told he's a machine gunner, like no, it takes a little time to figure that out and get good at it. Sniper school, how long is sniper school? Two months, three months?

• 4:15:07Speaker 01

  Like three months.

• 4:15:07Jocko Willink?

  Three months. It's a skill that you learn. So I know it sounds crazy. Leadership is a skill that you learn. Just like you learn an arm lock, you can learn reflect and diminish. That's a skill that you can learn. Extreme Ownership, it's an idea, but guess what? It's a skill that you learn how to apply. So that by the time you are in charge, when your guys throw knives at the wall of the hell box, you know that, oh, if I make a bunch of excuses, I'm going to get in worse trouble and I'm going to look like an idiot. So instead, since I'm the senior guy and I'm responsible, I'm going to take ownership. And that's what you do. But it's a skill. You're not born with it. No one is born with that skill.

• 4:15:53Jocko Willink?

  So if you want to learn these skills, go to extremeownership.com.

• 4:15:58Jocko Willink?

  And if you want to help service members, active and retired, you want to help their families, you want to help Gold Star families, check out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee, she's got an amazing charity organization. Matt and I have friends that have gone through some of the, some of the medical protocols that she organizes and they are so incredibly helpful. They will, they will, will save lives and change lives. So if you want to donate or you want to get involved, go to Americas Mighty Warriors.org. Also check out Heroes and Horses.org. Did you grow, ride any horses growing up in North Dakota?

• 4:16:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:16:33Jocko Willink?

  Decently, like a lot?

• 4:16:35Speaker 01

  No, a little bit.

• 4:16:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Do you know what Heroes and Horses is?

• 4:16:38Speaker 01

  I've seen it.

• 4:16:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's freaking epic. I mean, it's 41 days. They go and meet the horse. So you never like, never been on a horse before, never talked to a horse before, never seen a horse before, you meet a horse, you break the horse, you, and then you ride the freaking horse up into the mountains for 41 days. Yeah, it's an epic program. Micah Fink, another team guy, great dude, he runs it. It's just outstanding. If you want to support that, Heroes and Horses.org. And also Jimmy May has got his organization, BeyondTheBrotherhood.org. If you want to connect with us, Matt can be found at LinkedIn, at Matt Hasby, and he's on Instagram, at Matt underscore Hasby. And

• 4:17:23Jocko Willink?

  of course, you can find him at Eshlonfront.com. For us, I'm at Jocko Willink, Echo is at Echo Charles. Just watch out for the algorithm, because you can waste, you can waste 15 minutes of your time looking at social media. You can waste 20 minutes.

• 4:17:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're crazy.

• 4:17:43Jocko Willink?

  20 minutes of your time looking at a, you know, random stuff in your algorithm. I read a comment the other day, something came up in my algorithm, just the dumbest thing. And there was a comment and it said, I've built this algorithm brick by brick.

• 4:18:05Jocko Willink?

  And I was like, okay, dude, you get credit, but think about that. That's what it does. It knows where you're looking. It knows how long you stayed on the page. It knows that. And if you stayed, if there's a picture of a knife and you stayed a little bit longer, it's going to show you another knife. And then it's going to A, B, and test you with two different kinds of knives, a hunting knife. And then a combat knife, and you stay a little longer in the combat knife, it gives you more combat knives. And it's just going to do that. It's just going to keep feeding you the dopamine and the chaos. So just watch out for that. Watch out for it. Don't fall victim to it. Yeah, there we go. Echo, anything else?

• 4:18:45Speaker 02

  No, sir. Good to see Matt Hasby. Good to see you, sir. Right on.

• 4:18:48Jocko Willink?

  Matt, uh, thanks for joining us once again. Thanks for coming down here. Appreciate it. Uh, thanks for what you do here at Echelon Front. It's awesome to see you putting out word and giving your perspectives on things and helping people become better leaders. And of course, thanks for what you did for the country, for the Navy, for the teams. And for freaking tasking a bruiser, bro, day after day, night after night, putting on your gear. Facing death, delivering death. And you never wavered. And I thank you for it, bro. And to all the men and women out there in uniform right now that face death around the world in order to protect our freedom and our way of life. Thank you for your service and sacrifice.

• 4:19:29Jocko Willink?

  Thanks to our police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, border patrol, Secret Service, as well as all other first responders. Thank you for your service and sacrifice to protect us here at home. And everyone else out there. You know, there are ways that you can find

• 4:19:47Jocko Willink?

  to avoid the pressure.

• 4:19:50Jocko Willink?

  You can always find an excuse. You can always find a way out.

• 4:19:55Jocko Willink?

  Can always blame someone else or something else.

• 4:19:59Jocko Willink?

  But that not going to get you anywhere. What you should do

• 4:20:05Jocko Willink?

  is what Matt did. When things get tough, be tough. Step up, step toward the threat, step toward the conflict, step toward the battle.

• 4:20:16Jocko Willink?

  And go do what you're supposed to do.

• 4:20:19Jocko Willink?

  And until next time, this is Matt and Echo and Jocko. Out.