318: Even When The Uniform Comes Off, You Have a Lot To Offer. With Micah Fink.

0:00:00 - Opening 0:04:53 - Micah Fink. 4:17:30 - How to stay on THE PATH. 4:38:50 - Closing Gratitude. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 318 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening.

• 0:09Jocko Willink?

  The Native Americans believed that if you gave someone a diagnosis,

• 0:18Jocko Willink?

  it was a curse.

• 0:22Jocko Willink?

  It was a curse that can become an identity.

• 0:28Jocko Willink?

  If you accept it, but a rewiring can happen.

• 0:34Jocko Willink?

  When you realize that you are the one creating your own experience.

• 0:41Jocko Willink?

  This is a long and truthful conversation with yourself.

• 0:48Jocko Willink?

  How can we learn and evolve from our successes? And our failures?

• 0:56Jocko Willink?

  Where do we need to change?

• 1:01Jocko Willink?

  How can a person find solace and sovereignty? In the face of experience that has been shaped by such pressure, immense hardship, bad choices, chemical manipulation, digital stimulation, and sophisticated programming that teaches you to kill?

• 1:25Jocko Willink?

  When the antiquated ways fail and repeat the same answers and produce the same results, it's time to take charge of change.

• 1:40Jocko Willink?

  You are not the victim of this life, but rather the victim of your own choices.

• 1:48Jocko Willink?

  Truth is found within oneself, but to get to that truth, you have to peel back the layers to who you are.

• 1:58Jocko Willink?

  It's self-work and self-knowing that creates profound change.

• 2:06Jocko Willink?

  Today, we have an addiction problem. We are addicted to other people's ideas. We become the victim of our experience. We take magic pills or become convinced by false prophets as to what will fix us or make us happy.

• 2:24Jocko Willink?

  We just want to relieve hurt and make it go away.

• 2:30Jocko Willink?

  But running from pain only magnifies the pain.

• 2:37Jocko Willink?

  We are born to honor what is good while striving for our highest self.

• 2:45Jocko Willink?

  You have to be open to everything and closed to nothing. The heat, the cold, your weaknesses, failures and successes. Your loss and your regrets. Face them.

• 3:00Jocko Willink?

  Face yourself.

• 3:04Jocko Willink?

  This is the most important and difficult battle you have ever been in.

• 3:12Jocko Willink?

  Alexander the Great once said, "Bury me with my hands out of the ground so the world can see that I left it with nothing."

• 3:25Jocko Willink?

  That is the plan.

• 3:29Jocko Willink?

  You change your own life from within, always from within, never outside. It's 100% in you.

• 3:42Jocko Willink?

  Life is not here to punish us, but it's here to help us grow in wisdom and knowledge and to ensure we never again are a victim of life.

• 3:55Jocko Willink?

  The time is now.

• 4:04Jocko Willink?

  And that is a compilation of words that I put together that were written by or spoken by or implied by a man by the name of Micah Fink.

• 4:20Jocko Willink?

  And I think you're gonna see that through his path in life, in boyhood and business and war and combat and service and sacrifice, it's allowed him to learn some valuable lessons.

• 4:35Jocko Willink?

  And his goal is to teach those lessons.

• 4:39Jocko Willink?

  Or if not the lessons themselves, then at least teach other people how to learn those lessons, how to rewire themselves to be who you want to be, to be who you can be.

• 4:55Jocko Willink?

  And we are lucky enough to have Micah with us here tonight to share some of those lessons.

• 5:03Jocko Willink?

  So, Micah, thanks for coming by, man.

• 5:07Speaker 01

  Thanks, buddy. Man, that was intense.

• 5:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 5:12Speaker 01

  That was fucking awesome.

• 5:13Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you've got a bunch of clips out and stuff that you've written on your website. And I just pulled from some of it and watched some of your videos and pulled from some of that to try and give people a feel for sort of where you're at. But in order to get to where you're at, I guess we start at the beginning.

• 5:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, where have you been?

• 5:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, where have you been? So, where did it all start, man?

• 5:41Speaker 01

  You know, I kind of always started like, yeah, I was just a small town kid from upstate New York. And I laugh because if you would have told me when I was a kid that I would be doing the things that I'm doing today, I would have. I probably would have hit you over the head with a frying pan.

• 5:59Speaker 01

  I just, I feel really fortunate to, you know, to now be in a place where I can, I can take the experiences in my life that at a point did break me down and, and, and now kind of show people that those experiences are the greatest ally that they have in, in this journey of self-discovery that we're all on. And, you know, I grew up, my dad, you know, I grew up

• 6:22Speaker 01

  tough family, you know. My dad was, you know, seven brothers and sisters and grandfather was a mob, mob guy. And so he was in federal prison, you know, for 10 years and.

• 6:35Jocko Willink?

  Were you alive then?

• 6:36Speaker 01

  No, no, it was.

• 6:37Jocko Willink?

  So this is before you were born?

• 6:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's before I was born and but, and he had a tough life. And so he grew up as an orphan on the streets and.

• 6:44Jocko Willink?

  This is your dad?

• 6:45Speaker 01

  My dad's dad, my grandpa. Who I was super close to. He died when I was 16 and I was, I was really close to him. He was a, he was a hard man. And he grew up as an orphan and, and ended up turning his life around. I guess you could say much later in his life, he became the head of the railroad union and, you know. My, my dad always tells a story when, when their life kind of started straightening out and fast forward a little bit, my, my dad said they used to go back, he was a engineer in the railroad. And he said he used to go back in the caboose. My grandfather would be running all these card games, you know, hustling, doing this and that. And my dad would come back and say, Pa, I thought, what are you doing back here? I thought you were a Christian. And he's like, you can't gamble. And he's like,

• 7:29Speaker 01

  with me, it's a sure thing. So it's not gambling. Because he was a card counter. He could count cards. But, you know, so it was like real blue collar family, railroad family. And you know, my dad, my dad grew up in that kind of life. So my grandfather was a pretty severe guy in those years.

• 7:44Jocko Willink?

  Did your dad grow, did your grandfather live in also in upstate or was he down in the city?

• 7:49Speaker 01

  So he was upstate, he was in the city and then, and then family moved upstate New York and then mother and father died of alcoholism. And then I think nine, nine of the brothers and sisters were street kids, basically. They were orphans and then my grandfather kept escaping and

• 8:04Speaker 01

  matter of fact, he broke his leg as an orphan, was taken back to the home, had to get surgery and. You want to talk about having it rough, they circumcised them, he was ten. Yeah, he was an orphan kid, so they brought him in there. They're just like, ah, I'll give a little snip. But, uh, yeah, so it was a, it was a interesting kind of upbringing because my dad grew up and he, he went to the eighty second airborne. I was either go to, go to prison or go to Vietnam type deal. And, um, my dad was a really, really rough guy. Like, he's the epitome of a tough guy. Like a real tough, like a violent tough guy. And, uh, he wound up in prison and he wound up in Leavenworth and, uh.

• 8:43Jocko Willink?

  And what, what, was this before you were born?

• 8:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is, so this was before I was born, so my mom and dad had been together since fifteen or sixteen. My dad had to join the military.

• 8:52Jocko Willink?

  Did he go to Vietnam?

• 8:53Speaker 01

  Well, he was supposed to go to Vietnam, but then he wound up going to prison. Which Vietnam might have been better, but, uh, yeah, he, uh, he never had that balance in his life, you know? And, um, you know, it's interesting, my mom and dad, I think fifty six years or something, they've been together.

• 9:12Speaker 01

  But yeah, my dad went to Leavenworth and, uh, he got in some trouble in the military, of course, and he was riding with all the biker gangs, stuff like that. I mean, he doesn't, every tooth in my dad's head has been punched out, he's got a hundred something stitches across his head and. You know, he kind of just.

• 9:28Speaker 01

  He had it rough and he hit rock bottom and he got out and he ended up, uh, becoming a Christian and then.

• 9:32Jocko Willink?

  So he, so his prison time was in the military.

• 9:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, he went to Leavenworth. Yep, yep, yep. So he went to Leavenworth and, uh.

• 9:40Jocko Willink?

  How long was he in Leavenworth for?

• 9:41Speaker 01

  Couple of years.

• 9:43Jocko Willink?

  And then after that, it was whatever dishonorable discharge, most likely.

• 9:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:47Jocko Willink?

  And then.

• 9:48Speaker 01

  And then he got out and he just, uh, like took a bus back, basically. So he owed, he owed a bunch of money to, uh.

• 9:57Speaker 01

  Like the Hells Angels and those kind of guys, so they like took everything when he went to prison and robbed him blind, basically. And, uh, so he got out with nothing. And, you know, when I was a kid, like my Christmases were spent like in the city missions. You know, every single Christmas, we were in the slums and the hoods, we had people at my house, like straight out of prison, like. My dad used to always tell me when I was a kid, he's like, you know why I come here? He said, I come here because I never want to forget where I came from. And my mom said that when my dad, when she met him, he had a van, fifty-six panel van that said, "No hope without dope." He could never figure why, figure, figure out why you have getting pulled over all the time.

• 10:34Speaker 01

  So he was, you know, he was, he was a rough guy. And matter of fact, I know, because as a kid, people would come up to my dad, they wouldn't believe that, you know, it was him. And he was, he was, he was a violent human being. And the kind of person that has nothing to lose. And he was tough and he was a boxer and he was a street fighter. And so, yeah, so my dad gets out and he ends up becoming, walking down the street like lowest point of his life and he sees like the windows open in a church and the lights on and he decides he's gonna walk in there and he sits in the back. ZZ Top looking guy. If you look at the pictures, he's got the huge beard with the, you know, the jacket with eighty-seven patches on it, you know, rats and stuff. And tattoos, he had like Jesus smoking pot on his arm. Man, all kinds of crazy stuff.

• 11:19Speaker 01

  And he, he has an experience, like in that church. And nobody talked to him. Like, nobody would even come up to him, they just looked at him like, whoa, this is a scary guy. And he turned his life around right there in that moment. And so I was born in seventy-nine, my sister was born in seventy-seven. And my dad had to figure out how to put his life together, so my grandfather got him hooked up on the railroad. And I ended up becoming an engineer and working on the railroad through, till I was in second grade, and then he started a church in a really rural town of six hundred people. So we were, we were real poor when I grew up. We all lived in the same bedroom.

• 12:00Jocko Willink?

  So how many brothers and sisters was there?

• 12:02Speaker 01

  One sister.

• 12:02Jocko Willink?

  Just, just the one sister?

• 12:04Speaker 01

  Just the one sister, yeah.

• 12:05Jocko Willink?

  And this is still in upstate New York?

• 12:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then they started doing the tent revivals. So when I was a kid, I always tell people, I'm like, listen, I, at the time, I had become, and I'm not a religious guy, like, but I had become, I would get saved like pretty much three to four times a week. I've been, I have been saved more than any human being in North America. Because you would hear these guys and they would start preaching, you know, the crescendo would build. And the worms in the hell and the, and I'm like, duh, and I'm like, you know, I'd been kind of, I'm touching my penis or something, I'm like, ah, shit, I'm kidding, I would just be, have my hand up. And I was like, I, I moved my way up to the blanket guy. Where I, when the people would fall down, I would rush in with the little blanket and lay it over them. Which a lot of them are faking because... I was like, man, these people kind of just fall down. Like before they even get up there,

• 12:52Speaker 01

  sometimes they would just, they would get under the power or whatever. So I'd have these little blankets, you know, I'm like seven or eight years old, I'd run up to the blanket and I'd always like step on their finger. And they'd be like, hey.

• 13:03Speaker 01

  So then I was like, I started questioning things.

• 13:07Speaker 01

  I really, I really did start questioning things. Or sometimes they'd push you down on the ground. But that was a crazy experience, you know, we traveled all around.

• 13:14Jocko Willink?

  Was that all around the country you traveled or just?

• 13:16Speaker 01

  Upstate New York.

• 13:17Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 13:17Speaker 01

  Upstate New York, you know, so it was, um, I remember the eighties, it was kind of a wild time for that kind of stuff. The people would get the laughing spells and like, you know, there was all these kinds of things going on. And so I ended up, uh, I ended up leaving home at 16. So, and I, and I lived on my own from then on.

• 13:33Jocko Willink?

  And where'd you move to?

• 13:35Speaker 01

  Kind of moved around the country. Uh, and, uh, yeah, so I ended up, uh, moving, uh, down to South Florida and, uh, getting a job down there and working and.

• 13:45Jocko Willink?

  What were you doing in South Florida?

• 13:46Speaker 01

  Uh, my grandmother lived down there and I lived, uh, I was homeless for a little while. I was homeless for some months down there and, uh, I'd gotten, you know, I'd gotten in some trouble. I was also a very rough kid, as you could imagine. I,

• 14:02Speaker 01

  the thing about that whole movement, looking back now retrospectively is, is the guilt and the fear and all the things that are associated with that.

• 14:10Jocko Willink?

  What movement? The movement?

• 14:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, the revival movement and all that kind of stuff. And it was never about love, you know? And I mean, to me, like, that loving yourself and not judging yourself and all those kinds of things. It wasn't associated with that at the time. And so as soon as I got old enough, you know, around 15, I, uh, well, I started working at 10. And, um, yeah, I had my first job on a dairy farm. And then by the time I was 14 years old, I was working 35, 40 hours a week sometimes. Um, and.

• 14:41Speaker 01

  That was kind of my life.

• 14:42Jocko Willink?

  Were you going to school?

• 14:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was going to school. So I'd get off school. Sometimes I worked at ten o'clock at night. I'd work all the weekends. Work Sunday afternoons. Um, and then I started working for a family as a lineman. First, I was like the pick up the sticks guy, you know, I'd run around and move the trucks and do all these things and then, um, slowly, anything you get off the dairy. I don't really drink milk because of that. Um, milk is a disturbing product. Like, it is, I'm just sorry, like New Horizon Organics or whatever, but it's nasty. Like, it's a nasty thing, you know, like, and my job was to clean the udders and stick these little suckers on there and, you know, like these old bags kicking you and shitting on you and it's the worst thing. And then the milk goes in there and there's flies

• 15:26Speaker 01

  and the cats licking it up everywhere. And then these things gotta be like constantly, you know, kept pregnant, you know, so they're like in this perpetual state of pregnancy to get them to keep lactating, you know? And the only thing I wanted to do is just get the hell away from it. So, yeah, I ended up, uh, ended up becoming a lineman. So I learned how to do line work, started climbing telephone poles when I was thirteen. And, uh, I started making like good money doing that. So, um, I didn't do that down in Florida. I did a bunch of other things. And then, uh,

• 15:56Jocko Willink?

  That sounds like fun.

• 15:59Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, that was a really, really rough time in my life. Uh, matter of fact, we were just down in Florida and I was driving through some of the areas I used to live in. I could remember being so hungry, like going in the grocery store and just living like, just like grabbing like food and just like seeing like the big fat security guy like just looking at me like, and I would do the whole, I kind of like Julio Jones, like, you know, and usually I'd make it out with like one tenth of what I had. Like, and I remember this particular package of sausage that I had.

• 16:32Jocko Willink?

  Who were you hanging around with? What was, what was going on?

• 16:35Speaker 01

  Uh, I ended up, uh, I had met some guys when I was younger and, um, that were kind of passing through. They were like street guys. And at the time-

• 16:43Jocko Willink?

  Passing through upstate New York?

• 16:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. They were like selling shit and, you know, kind of rough crew. And so I actually showed up at their house.

• 16:52Jocko Willink?

  In Florida?

• 16:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I was, you know, I was in some, I was in some pretty big trouble at the time and, um, I uh, I was on my, I wasn't living at home at all anyway. And so I moved down there and I stayed down there until I was twenty. And, and then I moved back home. I had like thirty grand on me and, and a car and all kinds of stuff. And I moved back home with a, with a stripper girlfriend. I got that out of my system. So when I got the stripper briefing, the teams, I was like, yeah, boys. I was there when I was seventeen. Don't do it. And yeah, so I, I moved back home. My life was kind of like in a tailspin. Honestly, I, you know, I had money, I had things and I had a real hardship on my shoulder. And I just, uh,

• 17:38Speaker 01

  you know, I had kind of become like my father, I guess, in a sense where I was, I could be violent. I was pissed off. I was just angry.

• 17:46Jocko Willink?

  Once your dad found like God, was he still pissed off and angry?

• 17:51Speaker 01

  No, but inversely, he was really hard. He was a hard man, like hard, you know? I didn't, I never looked at God as like God is love and he wants to like care for us and Jesus with the lamb and stuff.

• 18:03Jocko Willink?

  You're like Old Testament God.

• 18:04Speaker 01

  Old Testament God, like, like I would take the staff. Those are the stories I heard, you know, like the ones you never hear. You only hear like, Jesus just loves everybody. Like, and then if you don't listen to him, like worms are gonna come suck your brains out and you're gonna burn in hell. And by the way, like, I mean, I mean, it was like that. That was the, was the revival days. It was the fire and brimstone. And so, I was afraid of it, to be honest. And I, um, I didn't, I didn't like the whole thing. I didn't like the hypocrisy and that whole movement and stuff. And so, as soon as I got old enough, you know, I had a bunch of money. I had worked my whole life. That's what I did. I put my head down and I worked. I worked really hard. And,

• 18:43Speaker 01

  um, that's kind of all I knew. I was like obsessive compulsive worker. And, um, you know, when I left, I was on my own. I had like, I had no like, balance in my life. So, yeah, I, uh, I moved back home. I started doing line work again. And actually, a big turning point for me was that I, uh, I went on a backpacking trip by myself and I ended up kinda having this experience out there with a bear. It was like a little black bear, whatever. And I kinda just started like thinking about my whole life and, and how I just wasn't ready to die. I wasn't ready to, that there was something else missing. And I walked out of there and I, I literally after that moment, I kind of changed my whole life. It was nothing religious.

• 19:23Jocko Willink?

  Where, where was, where were you at?

• 19:24Speaker 01

  In the Adirondacks. Yeah. Kinda where I grew up going to all the time. And so, uh, yeah, so I ended up getting back on the line crew, climbing telephone poles again. And I look back, like when I was a teenager, working on these line crews, I would spend the summers living in New York City. And I was living with grown men that were shooting heroin and, you know, living in these, they would put me up in these hotels and I would live in these, with these guys that were like vagrants, you know, they were, they were like, they would travel from city to city on these huge contracts and I would be down there for the week. And, um, yeah, that was a, that was tough, you know, cause I was a kid. Matter of fact, I remember there was a guy, I'll never forget him, I won't say his name, he's probably dead now, but he was like six foot eight. He was the scariest guy. I was from

• 20:08Speaker 01

  Long Island. Okay. His brother was another gigantic dude and they were the hairiest people like I've ever seen in my life. Okay. I've never seen men that hairy in my life until I met you. And then, um, these guys were like, these guys were like fucking Lebanese butchers, like, and they had the deepest voices. And I get put on a splicing crew with this guy and I remember I'm, you know, I'm 16, it's right before I left, I'm living in the city, I'm living with all these guys. And of course, they would never give me a bed. I'd be in the corner, my little like sleeping bag, you know, and they'd be doing their things. And, uh, I remember this guy would never talk to me and he would always flick his cigarettes at me. And he was just constantly smoking pot all the time.

• 20:49Jocko Willink?

  And you're 16 at this point?

• 20:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, so I'm down there with this guy and I'm like, he has a van, like a white, like murderer van, filled with all this cable stuff and his head's like touches the ceilings in it. And he'd always be like, he always called me loser, fuckface, whatever, like any name except for my name, he would call me. And he had the deepest voice, he's covered in hair. And I remember we're in Long Island and I mean, most kids are like playing like basketball and they're out there like trying to like, you know, make out with their girlfriend, like high school prom, like I'm there with this dude Jim. And I remember we're in Long Island, I'm like setting the cones up or whatever and and I'm not doing it fast enough or good enough. Everything's getting paid by the units.

• 21:33Speaker 01

  And I remember he's like, he's in the bucket above and he just looks at me and he starts swearing at me and he takes like a bolt and he throws it down. He hits me in the side of the head with it. My heart had it and like, I mean, it rang my bell.

• 21:45Jocko Willink?

  Freaking dude had a wing on him too, huh?

• 21:47Speaker 01

  So he just like whips it down like bong like and I'm like, remember I like rocked back and I'm like, I went around the side of the truck and I started like kind of crying. I was like,

• 21:58Speaker 01

  so then I like, I just snapped and so I started like taking all the cones. I started screaming and throwing them into the road and cars like laying on their horns. This isn't New York and I'm like, and then I run over and I grabbed the emergency controls in the bucket. And I'm like, and he's like flopping and shit's coming everywhere and he's screaming, I'm gonna overkill you. And I'm like crying, I'm like, ah, like, and I'm pushing all the tools under the ground. I'm throwing everything everywhere. I'm kicking the truck. I'm going crazy. So finally, after like 30 seconds of going crazy and the controls I can see is like, this dude's gonna murder me. So he just like stands up when I stop and he's like, you're dead. You're dead, he says to me.

• 22:38Speaker 01

  And I'm like, so I just grab a huge pipe off the thing and I'm like, and I'm out in the road and I'm just bawling my eyes out. I'm like, come on Jim, I'm like screaming and he's like, he's like coming down in his little bucket, you know, and I'm the tears and people are laying on their horns and shit's everywhere. And he looked at me and he's like, he gets down like just like out of reach from me and I'm hitting the truck. I'm like, you're dead. Like, and he probably would have killed me. And then he just like looked at me. And he's like,

• 23:10Speaker 01

  and he went back up.

• 23:11Jocko Willink?

  He made a good decision, huh?

• 23:12Speaker 01

  And I was like, so then he's like, pick up everything, you piece of shit, he says to me like, and so I'm out there picking everything up. And sure enough, like I gotta live in the house with the guy. So I like, you know, I go back, the week's over. And of course we go back up, you know, he's, it was like nothing happened, you know, and I would ride back up there and he would just be like smoking like joint after joint, listening to Led Zeppelin. He would like look at me, he'd get done and he'd go. And he'd like flick it at me and like hit my pants and I'd brush it off and he'd be like huh. And he'd like, he'd like keep driving. So I mean, that was kind of like, you know, I always like joke about like, when I got in the military, like,

• 23:50Speaker 01

  I was already kind of like a, I wasn't afraid of much at that point, like in the sense of like, I just had, I had had a lot of experiences, you know, I'd grown up on my own and grown up, you know, pretty rough. And so, um, I ended up starting my own line crew and hiring some of my delinquent friends that I grew up with, you know, and, and I happened to be in Queens, New York. And at this point, I really did turn my life around. And I'm in Queens, New York, uh, when the first plane hit the World Trade Center. So, September 11th, I go to the yards in Long Island, pick up all my equipment. We used to store everything in these huge yards just outside the city. And, um, I'm gonna get some of this here. I got like,

• 24:31Speaker 01

  some goat juice. And, uh, I get, uh, get all the stuff floated up and I got the, we used to just go down there and be dudes standing out in the street and I would give them cash. So I'd be like, who needs, who needs a job? You know, like who's got a driver's license? I'm like, all right, a hundred bucks, get in and we'd hire like a ground guy. And, um, I was making big money at the time and I bought myself like an Audi, which I would not advise.

• 24:54Jocko Willink?

  Wait, what? Was there something wrong with the Audis?

• 24:57Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, I didn't realize that when it broke, I couldn't afford to fix it. Like that was like, and they do break.

• 25:01Jocko Willink?

  Who were your friends that you were hanging out with? Who were these dudes?

• 25:05Speaker 01

  So like, I only really kind of ever had like the same friends kind of growing up.

• 25:09Jocko Willink?

  So the same crew from Catskill moved down with you?

• 25:13Speaker 01

  Uh, the guy, yeah. So they would work with me during the week. We'd live down there and on the weekends they'd go home. So we'd leave Sunday night at like three o'clock in the morning or whatever. And then we'd be there to work Monday and then we had a place that we'd rent. And we'd live down there, work all week and then come back up.

• 25:27Jocko Willink?

  Weren't you in a band or something too?

• 25:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. I played in a funk ska band. Shout out to funk shop Loomis. I think everyone's probably dead in that band. But, uh,

• 25:36Jocko Willink?

  And were you guys playing gigs back then?

• 25:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. So we were playing gigs back then. So I ended up, uh, man, I wish I had a.

• 25:44Speaker 01

  My wife has a great picture of me at the house with my band. I had platinum blonde hair and like my ears pierced and they're like stretched out and I got the

• 25:51Jocko Willink?

  The whole thing huh?

• 25:52Speaker 01

  Oh yeah.

• 25:53Jocko Willink?

  So this is like, so this is 1999.

• 25:55Speaker 01

  I started playing drums as a kid in church as a, you know, and play that gospel music, you know?

• 26:00Jocko Willink?

  So when you weren't covering people up with blankets.

• 26:03Speaker 01

  So it's all those kind of like old gospel chops and, uh, and so I started playing drums when I was eight. And, um, you know, I wasn't like that. We ended up kind of moving out of being, you know, really poor and, and, um, you know, kind of got to like, I guess you could say like, I guess would be considered middle class or whatever, you know?

• 26:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Cause your dad had a legit job, but then you lived in the railroad.

• 26:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, but he left the railroad and that's when we kind of went down because God was gonna pay us.

• 26:30Jocko Willink?

  Jack.

• 26:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:32Jocko Willink?

  And so you guys were gigging, you were in a gigging band?

• 26:35Speaker 01

  Gigging band. Yeah. We actually, uh, the band Funk Shop Loomis opened up for Long Beach Dub All-Stars.

• 26:40Jocko Willink?

  Check you out, bro.

• 26:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. Actually I have a demo, we actually have a demo CD. We had a song, um, called Single Man. And, uh, TV dinner's always the same cause I'm a single man. One night stands are calling my name cause I'm a single man. So it was, uh, yeah, we were, we were kind of a jam band and funk ska band. And I like that kind of chops. I like gospel music. Like, you know, that's kind of what I grew up with and, um, guys like Dave Weckl and Ginger Birch and, uh, you know, so I was really actually thought I was going to become a professional drummer. That was like what I was really aspiring at the time to be.

• 27:20Speaker 01

  And I probably would have been had I stayed on the trajectory had nine 11 not happened. Um, I mean, I was, uh, getting, I'd just gotten sponsored by Evans Drumheads, J D Adario.

• 27:32Speaker 01

  So I was, I was getting pretty like serious and I probably wouldn't have stayed with that band forever. Would have moved up, you know, and known it to various bands and so.

• 27:40Jocko Willink?

  Selling out your band before you even made it, bro.

• 27:43Speaker 01

  I know.

• 27:43Jocko Willink?

  Look at you.

• 27:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 27:48Jocko Willink?

  I would have moved up from Loomis Funk.

• 27:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, funk music's guy definitely gets people.

• 27:55Jocko Willink?

  Well, ska is like the fact that you were playing ska music.

• 27:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:59Jocko Willink?

  Is is pretty rare.

• 28:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's it. Well, it's a particular style of playing, too. It's a lot of like odd time signatures. You know, like, um, and so it's it's in funk and gospel and all that kind of stuff has a similar foundations. You know, it's all based off of kind of like jazz, you know? So that's what I did, you know, and I played a lot of like Christian music, you know, it was like Jesus rock. Um, and let me tell you something, you get the youth group girls when you're like Jesus rock star. You totally do. You're playing like at the huge youth camps and stuff, you know, you're like, you're like, ah, you're driving the beats, you know? We love the Lord, but you know, what's your name?

• 28:35Jocko Willink?

  Christian youth camp attendance just went down by eighty percent for young girls.

• 28:40Speaker 01

  By the way, don't go there. I'll never send my kids there. It's the worst, you know? Back of the van. So.

• 28:47Jocko Willink?

  So, so all that's kind of where you're at. You're busting your ass working. You're playing music and making money, enough money to buy an Audi that you really can't afford to fix. But still, you got the Audi.

• 28:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:00Jocko Willink?

  And then September 11th comes.

• 29:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, September 11th came and I had never like, you know, thought about joining the military or anything like that.

• 29:06Jocko Willink?

  Where were you on September 11th? Cause you're in the city?

• 29:08Speaker 01

  So I was in Queens, New York. Yeah, I was on a telephone pole when it happened. Uh, so I was on a railroad pole. At the time, my job was to send a, so Time Warner was being stood up, high speed internet, Roadrunner. And we had to isolate those systems, what they call power supplies. And so power supplies had to be isolated. So if there's a lightning strike, it would only go like 300 feet before the next pole and not blow the whole system. So I had a job putting in these power supplies and then grounding everything to power bell, cable, you know, all the way down into the ground. And then I would install these big supplies and then wire everything up. And I got paid for everything. I mean, if I put like a screw on, I could bill for it, whatever it was. So it was, it was a good gig. I mean, making seven, eight hundred bucks a day after I paid my guys and all my expenses.

• 29:53Speaker 01

  So it was like, it was good money and I was a hustler. And so, I mean, I could just, I would work when the sun was up, like, you know? I was on my second cup of coffee and making money. So, um, yeah, the, the first plane hits the World Trade Center. I'm on telephone pole. I have no idea what's going on. Um, and I get a call in the next tell from a friend of mine that tells me that, uh, a plane just hit the World Trade Center. And at first I really didn't believe them. And, um, I come down off the pole and end up like, meeting a lady who's had her door open like right next to where the pole was. Basically she lives right by the railroad tracks. And what a terrible place to live. Oh my God. When people live by the railroad tracks, it's just like.

• 30:36Jocko Willink?

  Especially on the east coast, like when you drop, when you take the train, they'll, the railroad tracks. Yeah. If you live by the railroad tracks, it's a bummer.

• 30:44Speaker 01

  That's, that's.

• 30:45Jocko Willink?

  I mean, let's face it out here in California, you can live by railroad tracks in Encinitas and have an ocean view that in a house that you paid 4.8 million dollars for. It's not that way on the east coast.

• 30:55Speaker 01

  No, your house is made of shingles. They're like the, the house, you know how those houses are shingled? It's like, yeah, these are working on the roof. Let's just keep going. And, uh, yeah. So I was like, so I come down, I see this lady, she's in there, she's watching the news, husband was a port authority police officer and she was kind of crying and emotional, you know, then obviously the other plane hits and like, at the time I thought like, America was like under attack or we're being invaded. I, I don't know. I had all these like weird thoughts probably from watching like movies and.

• 31:24Jocko Willink?

  Red, red dawn.

• 31:25Speaker 01

  Red dawn.

• 31:25Jocko Willink?

  Happening now.

• 31:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. Jed. Um, so yeah, so I, uh, I go back to the yards and I got my buddy with me. We got rid of the other dude. We gave him his hundred bucks. And, and I was like, I'm going into the city. And my buddy's like, to do what? And I'm like, I don't know, to like, help out. And he's like, you don't know anything. I remember this conversation we were having because I did, I don't know what I was gonna do. I was be a victim or something, but.

• 31:49Jocko Willink?

  How old are you?

• 31:50Speaker 01

  Uh, I was 21.

• 31:51Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 31:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I'm 42 now. And so I was like, so I go in there, drop everything off, take the Audi, get on the L I A 495. And I'm like hauling ass down there. There was no traffic. It was crazy. And I'm like maxing this car out. That's probably why I broke down. And I get to the, I think it's the Lincoln Tunnel and there's like already tactical teams and guys all standing there and tell you how tight security was. Like I had like a bunch of like cable TV and electrical IDs and like just, you know, I look like a state department guy in Iraq, you know, I had like the million badges or whatever. And.

• 32:30Speaker 01

  I tell them I'm like a demolition crew and can you, can you let me through and they're like, yep, bring it in. And so I just drove right on through and we went down there and parked and that's when I, you know, towers had fallen, listened to the radio and that's when uh, I realized like the severity of everything that was happening. Like I could see the smoke and people were screaming and running everywhere. And I'd never seen anything like that in my life. And um, so I ripped the sleeve off my shirt, put it on my face and my body and just walked into the smoke. Basically at this point, I had no idea where I was going. So I would stay there for 24 hours till September 12th and um, that was a

• 33:11Jocko Willink?

  What were you doing?

• 33:12Speaker 01

  At first, like, nothing. I was just like, trying to like, see if anybody needed help, but like, I needed help myself because I was covered in the smoke and everybody was running the opposite way. So I ended up getting in there and then they were putting together these like makeshift shirt. It was total chaos. Like, I don't think that people, unless you were there, like, realized, like, there was really no organization. It wasn't like, there was half, you know, the fire department was dead, there were smashed vehicles, cop cars everywhere. So we kind of started like getting together with groups to like, look for people. Late in the afternoon, I ended up seeing like, a guy's leg sticking out from underneath a police car. And a bunch of us got over there and lifted it up and he was dead. And I remember like, all the gravel and everything was like shoved into

• 33:56Speaker 01

  his face. He must have hid underneath the car. I don't know, to speculate, but whatever happened, the car lifted up and smushed him. And so people like pulled him out and they pulled like some blankets over him and fire department came in, Citibank Tower fell, that tower, you know, mystical Tower 7, I was like, right there. And uh, you know, for a couple of hours, I couldn't see my hand in front of my face. It was one of the most terrifying experiences of my life, until I became an SDV guy.

• 34:23Jocko Willink?

  Did you stay put? Did you just stay there?

• 34:25Speaker 01

  I just stayed there with my shirt over my head, but I couldn't breathe. And then the, you know, I go to the fire department, they watched my eyes out and I stayed there all night. I found like an arm and like intestines, like, and I crawled inside the World Trade Center. Like, I was sliding down the metal beams into the belly of the World Trade Center and it was like, The most insane noises I ever heard in my life, like creaking and, you know, just like smoke and steam and it was just, it was so chaotic. I had no idea what I was doing, but I wanted to help. I had, I have this memory of like, I had a bicycle tube tire on my hard hat with those little like disposable ever ready, like red and green, like with the white switch lights. That was my headlamp. I had them like tied on there to the rescue. And

• 35:10Speaker 01

  even if I found somebody, I don't really know what I would have done because I had zero skills really. And so I, you know, I'm right by that iconic picture of where the exoskeleton of the World Trade Center is, where the guys are raising the flag and it's all over the posters and stuff. I'm like sitting off to the right. And so the next morning, I was there, got some food, I have like a smashed up like little bagel cart that was there with my buddy. And I remember for the first time since like that dude hit me in the head with that bug nut, I, I was like crying really hard. Like I could feel the death. I could feel the departure of life in that area. Like you could feel the immense

• 35:52Speaker 01

  loss. And I was sitting there with my buddy. I'm like, we're just crying. And he just looks at me. He's like, man, like, what are we gonna do? The sun's coming up. It's the next morning. And I just looked at him. I was like, I'm gonna fucking kill whoever did this. And he was like, okay, like, you know, he kind of patted me on the back like, yeah, okay. And so I ended up deciding 2003 that I joined the military. Cause what happened was I lost my contract like six, maybe it wasn't six months, maybe three months later, I lost my contract.

• 36:25Jocko Willink?

  So through, so through the end of 2001, you go back to work?

• 36:31Speaker 01

  Go back to work. But then they're like, you know, all this economic ambiguity, all the new build, all this stuff, they start cutting. I'm like low guy in the totem pole, you know, subcontractor. So I own like all these like, like all this line equipment that I bought and, you know, I had a truck that was, I bought that payments on, I had my Audi. Like I had all this shit. And now I'm like, you know, basically I'm just trying to keep everything afloat. I couldn't find any work. Everyone's freaking out. I'm watching it. I'm glued to the TV, you know, 24 hour news cycle. And so I ended up selling everything off. Picked up some like side work and uh and then moved out to Big Sky, Montana. And I got a job as a ski tech out there.

• 37:13Speaker 01

  Because I was just like, I was watching this Warren Miller movie. And he said, if you don't pack up everything that you have and move to Big Sky, Montana, you'll only be one year older when you do. And I was like, so I got a job out there in a ski shop. Fixing skis and so I worked out there, came back.

• 37:33Jocko Willink?

  Did you know anything about skiing?

• 37:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, I had, I mean, my idea of skiing, like, I hate them, like, I basically just like stole the skis like and I would, I had a pair of wire snippers and that's how I learned how to ski.

• 37:46Speaker 01

  My parents did take me on like a youth group thing one, but I spent most of the time trying to like make out with a girl and uh and then get saved on the next Sunday. Get forgiveness, but I uh, no, I would um, I would go up with a pair of like wire snippers and you know, I used to have the old things and I would like snip them off and put them on my jacket. And that's how I would ski and I'd ski all the time like that.

• 38:09Speaker 01

  I know it sounds terrible and I'm sorry if you're listening and I did that to you. It's for your forgiveness, but but I mean, that's, that's how I was, you know, I mean, I didn't really, I didn't, I didn't have, you know, a lot of things and so. So anyway, I went out there and I worked in the ski shop and I was just basically was a ski bum and it was awesome. And I met my um, I met my first and only ex-wife, so uh

• 38:34Speaker 01

  she was like a work exchange program for Brazil, a little spotty on the English, so it worked well. And um, yeah, so, so I ended up, you know, working out there for basically about a year, coming back and then getting on a line crew and that's when I decided I was going to join the military.

• 38:49Jocko Willink?

  And then how'd you figure out the Navy?

• 38:52Speaker 01

  Well, um, I tried to join the army because I had seen like everything Roberts Ridge and all that kind of stuff. And uh, I didn't know like a ton about the military and I, you know, of course, the army's trying to get me to go on the infantry and you work your way up and this is where it starts and I'm like, hmm. I didn't, so a Navy guy actually came out and like saw me and I kept going to the mall because the recruiting station was in the mall. Um, which meant, you know, go try to get in the military. If it didn't work out, get an orange Julius meat and pretzel. So that's kind of my.

• 39:25Jocko Willink?

  Is Orange Julius still around? Does that still look big?

• 39:28Speaker 01

  I think all their customers died. One leg at a time.

• 39:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, freaking diabetes, all of them.

• 39:34Speaker 01

  Diabetes, yeah. Yeah, exactly.

• 39:36Jocko Willink?

  So eventually a Navy recruiter sees you?

• 39:38Speaker 01

  He see, well, he's like, he starts chatting it up with me. He's like coming back for lunch in one day and he's like, oh, hey, I've like seen you come in here a bunch. Like, what are you doing? You're always like here. I'm like, well, they're like, I'm trying to get a rain, go in the Rangers. And uh, he's like, well, why do you want to do that? And I was like, oh, cause you know, they're the best in the world. He goes, no, they're not. And he's like, let, you got a minute? Let me show you a video. And he brings me in there and shows me like the CJ crock is kind of video like. It's, it's like the dudes doing flutter kits in the shorts and they're like in the desert. Like, I mean, it was at the time, the coolest thing I'd ever seen in my entire life. And I was just like enthralled. And these dudes are like doing the triangle defense and like they're.

• 40:19Speaker 01

  So I was like, man, he's like, yeah, the Navy SEALs like they're the best. And I was like, whoa, man, what do I gotta do? He's like, man, you gotta just sign up, take a little PT test. And I was like, great. Like. So I go through all this stuff and it took me a little while to get longer to get in than I had wanted because I had a couple of like little altercations in my life. I had to get cleared up. And uh, yeah, so I ended up started doing like a bunch of research and I was like, I could barely swim. I, I could swim, but I wasn't like. That kind of swimmer. So I started, uh, I started training. Uh, I bought the, uh, like a Navy SEAL workout book. And uh, I started boxing again.

• 41:00Jocko Willink?

  Cause you grew up boxing?

• 41:01Speaker 01

  I grew up boxing. Yeah.

• 41:02Jocko Willink?

  How much did you box when you were a kid?

• 41:04Speaker 01

  Uh, on and off pretty much since I was like about 10. Yeah. I started in Catskill, New York, same place Mike Tyson learned. Catskill Village Boxing.

• 41:12Jocko Willink?

  There you go.

• 41:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. And uh, I actually continued.

• 41:16Jocko Willink?

  You understood working out? Cause if you never did that, you.

• 41:20Speaker 01

  But working out back in the day was kind of like the toe touchers, you know, you're doing the side. It was not as like, you know, scientific as it is today.

• 41:27Jocko Willink?

  No, I remember getting ready to come in the Navy and thinking like, dude, you know, I did whatever. Five sets of eight pull ups. Like, what a good workout. Cause you just had no idea. I mean, this is like eighty nine. So there's no, well, at least there was no information available that I had. I mean, I wasn't going to go to the library. Library, we couldn't just Google shit and figure it out. So, and at least if you box, like you knew, even if you just knew, like, you gotta push yourself. Like you obviously, did you compete in boxing?

• 41:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, boxing amateurs.

• 41:58Jocko Willink?

  Then you knew, like, you, you knew how to push yourself hard in a workout.

• 42:01Speaker 01

  Absolutely. But that was like a different kind of like, in the sense, basically the workouts I was doing was running, push ups, pull. So like, I was, I would get up in the morning. I would get up before work. So I had a job. I started working for a roofing contractor. Once I was working for a line guy, that job kind of foiled out and thank God these guys were crazy. I was working up in Glens Falls. Anyway, Lauren Cruz got some crazy people in it. You know, they got a lot of problems. Like I find myself living in a trailer in Glens Falls with this dude Johnny, cause he didn't want to pay my hotel or whatever. But anyway, so I'm like doing that. I ended up getting a job for this roofing company. So I'm roofing all day. I'm working at a pizzeria at night and on the weekends I worked for this guy, Sanja, this Ugandan guy,

• 42:43Speaker 01

  who had a bunch of slums and I would go in there and basically patch everything up temporarily, you know? I wish Flex Tape was around because I was basically, you know, flex taping everything and just to make it like, you know, pass the sniff test for the renters. And so I was working three jobs and, you know, busting my ass making pizzas. And matter of fact, this is, so when I went to Bud's, I had a bicycle that I bought uh, from a guy that came in the pizzeria. Uh, it was a really cool, um, specialized stump jumper. Like for the day, it was like, it had like the shocks. I mean, it was like, it was sick. And I took that to Bud's with me. I bought it for sixty bucks and at the pizzeria and I sold that bike to Mike Everett,

• 43:29Speaker 01

  who was my neighbor.

• 43:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:34Speaker 01

  Anyway, just a little factoid, but um, so if he still has that, you know, I don't know.

• 43:40Jocko Willink?

  Oh, you mean Mikey Everett?

• 43:41Speaker 01

  Mikey Everett.

• 43:42Jocko Willink?

  The team guy?

• 43:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:43Jocko Willink?

  Oh, wait, he was your neighbor?

• 43:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, he was my neighbor when I lived in Buzz. I lived in Imperial Beach.

• 43:47Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 43:48Speaker 01

  And I lived like two blocks over him and how I met him was I was going through Buzz. Of course I showed up with, you know, I got the tow head. And I, he was selling a Jeep and I had seen the movie. I wanted a Jeep as Navy SEALs and I did end up getting one. I mean, I, I, once I went and I like bought into it like big time, became like a Navy SEAL historian. I bought every single, I've read everything, you know, from hunters and shooters, you know, men of devils with green. I read everything, the stories that, I mean, I was like obsessed. And uh, that's how I am. I'm like a total immersion guy, but.

• 44:21Jocko Willink?

  Mikey was, I, when I lived in Coronado, when I was at Team One, Mikey was at Team One, Mikey was in my team at Team One. We lived in the upstairs apartment. And he lived in the downstairs apartment. So I have many, many, many, many Mikey stories.

• 44:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:35Jocko Willink?

  That's freaking awesome.

• 44:36Speaker 01

  I would go over like, so I met him and he's like, I went over there and I was like, oh, how, like, how much for your Jeep? He's like, are you in Buzz? And I was like, yeah. He's like, get the fuck out of here. He said something like that to me or something. I was like, if we come back when you get a brown T-shirt or something, he said to me. I ended up like getting him known through Buzz.

• 44:54Jocko Willink?

  And he's like the nicest guy ever.

• 44:55Speaker 01

  He's the nicest guy and his wife, you know, his little gal, um, just great, great people.

• 45:00Jocko Willink?

  For sure.

• 45:01Speaker 01

  His dad was like a Hell's Angel and he was like on Easy Riders and stuff like, I mean, um, super cool people.

• 45:07Jocko Willink?

  The best, right?

• 45:08Speaker 01

  The best.

• 45:09Jocko Willink?

  Mikey, I used to get crazy with stuff. Oh, yeah.

• 45:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I was like, so I went over, I remember I sold my bike to him. Uh, I needed like the money. I forget, I forget why I was selling. I wish I never sold it.

• 45:23Speaker 01

  But I sold him that bike that I bought the pizzeria and uh, for 60 bucks. I think I sold him for a hundred and fifty, so.

• 45:29Jocko Willink?

  Damn, ripping off.

• 45:30Speaker 01

  Shout out to the business mind. Gotcha, Mike. So. So I, so I'm like, so I'm training for Buzz. I'm like, basically order the Bates, like six, two, sixes or whatever they were and the pants and, and I just start working out and, and training my ass off. And I ended up meeting a guy named, through my recruiter, a guy named Drew Bissett. Do you know who he is?

• 45:53Jocko Willink?

  I don't think so.

• 45:54Speaker 01

  An old team guy. He was, he was a commander.

• 45:57Jocko Willink?

  I don't think I know.

• 45:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. And he started, started off in UDTs and went on and they ran this like SEAL.

• 46:04Speaker 01

  Training course in Greenwich, Connecticut. So you would go down there and you're supposed to get this like letter of approval or like recommendation. And I never got shit from it, but it was a great experience because I met a bunch of guys that later on I would go on and serve with. And we would train like on the once a month together for like a whole weekend. And I'd never done anything like that. And so it was a really good experience. I, you know, worked out tons and, you know, I'd work out in the morning, work out in the evening. I show up to Bud's, you know, go through a boot camp, which was like, I'll never forget it because I remember the boot camp guy was like, I had, I got busted taking the lunches for the sick people and eating

• 46:45Speaker 01

  them at night. And I was so hungry because I would like go work out in the bathroom. I was so nervous about failing. And I got busted. And so they, you know, they had all these restrictions going on. Then they had that dive motivator program going on, run by Jody McIntyre was running at the time. And so I would like go over there and I'd get these little passes. And then I started knowing all the scruffs waiting to go to Bud's. And so they would give me these passes. And then eventually I was just kind of filling them out and leaving like, and wandering around boot camp, right? So I started calling my, my, my now ex-wife. And I'd go in the phone booth and I got busted by the chief like right before graduation. So I never really got to see my family. They restricted me

• 47:30Speaker 01

  before I left to go to Bud's or whatever. I was eating M and M's and I was like in the booth and I was like, I saw my chief and I was like, I just timed it wrong. Literally I was, I was walking out with like chips on my chin. I like walked out and he's like, looks at me and I was like, I have a pass. And, and he's, and he's, give me your pass. I look at it. He's like, who signed this? I was like, uh, Petty Officer Johnson. Like, oh shit. Like, I got, that was my first taste of like the military has you by the balls. And, um, yeah, so I show up, uh, class up with class two, five, four. Matter of fact, I graduated with Brian Boudoir. Oh, right. Yeah. Brian was, was a buddy of mine. And, uh, yeah. So I classed up with them and.

• 48:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, cruised through. I think we graduated 13 original guys out of that class, graduated like guys like Ryan Bates and

• 48:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, I remember I didn't shout out to Ryan Bates. I didn't like him at first because everyone's like, hey, Ryan's like, he does like wrestles at the Lions Den. I'm like, what the fuck is a Lions Den? You know, and everyone's like, he's like in the best shape ever. Like everyone was there. I was like, freaking beat his ass. Like, I just was like not having it. We ended up becoming super good buds, you know, but.

• 48:45Jocko Willink?

  He's awesome. I tell a story a lot, but I don't say his name, Brian, but uh, it's like one of those moments where I was, they were going through training and through workup training and I was running the training. And there was like total chaos going on in the mount town and there's just like, everyone's getting shot up with paintball or whatever and no one's making any decisions. And I could already, I, a guy like him, he stood out because he's just like, was a freaking stud and was squared away. And I don't think I had trained with, because eventually, you know, we trained together in jujitsu and whatnot. So I think I kind of knew that or whatever, but that wasn't, he was good as an operator.

• 49:24Jocko Willink?

  You know, beyond jujitsu, he was good as an operator and I knew it. And you could all, you could tell, like in a platoon, there'd be like two guys that were good or three guys that were good or whatever. And it might be the OIC, it might be the platoon chief, it might be the LPL, or it might be some freaking random E5. So I'd been watching him and there's total mayhem and chaos going on and he's like crouched down behind a wall. And I walk over to him like, hey, bro, what's going on? He's like, just get crazy. And I said, what do you think you should do right now? And he's like, we should, we should freaking strong point that building. And I go, why don't you make it happen? And he, it was beautiful. The look on his face was like, ho, I can do that. And he just is like, hey,

• 50:05Jocko Willink?

  we're strong pointing that building over there. And here's like, you know, I don't even know he's a new guy or maybe he was a one cruise wonder or whatever. He started making calls and people just listened and they did what they're supposed to do. And yeah, I love that guy.

• 50:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know. I, you know, I have, so Van Wilson, he was the team guy that uh, uh, got killed in a car crash the day after we graduated BUDS, uh, academy grad officer. He was NCAA wrestling champ. Monster. I know, we're all heartbroken. We all got like tattoos the night before or whatever together and we're all, all super tight and yeah, that was a, that, that, you know, being in BUDS and. That like that changed my life, you know, that whole, that whole experience, you know, I was like finally like a part of something, you know?

• 50:49Jocko Willink?

  Did you have trouble with anything? You said you weren't that great of a swimmer? Did you figure it out?

• 50:52Speaker 01

  No, I aced everything except for the last one, but uh, as a matter of fact, it would have been the first time, every time had I not dragged another friend of mine. He's getting ready to get out, uh, because he was, he was done after that. If he didn't pass that, it was over for him.

• 51:08Speaker 01

  And he was like sandbagging like crazy and I had to drag him.

• 51:12Jocko Willink?

  But you, that's pretty good that you were able to not really be like a water guy and pass everything.

• 51:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, later on I would become, you know, I started competing, you know, you know, uh, free dive spearfishing, you know, around the world. Um, so I mean, I, that water experience and then being an SDV guy, um, which was like, if they, they should just have the SDV at BUDS like day one. Everyone get into this, we're going to sink it under the water into the dark. You would, you would, it would, you would weed out like 75% of the people.

• 51:39Jocko Willink?

  A lot of people.

• 51:40Speaker 01

  It's terrifying. And, um, so I got out, went, you know, went to 18 Delta, went to the Saka Metacourse and then, uh, um, got sent to SDV team one.

• 51:51Jocko Willink?

  How tall are you?

• 51:52Speaker 01

  Six, four.

• 51:53Jocko Willink?

  Do they even think about that at all? I mean, that doesn't make sense, bro.

• 51:56Speaker 01

  No, uh.

• 51:58Jocko Willink?

  So if you don't know, SDV is like a mini sub and it's, it's a, it's what's called a wet submersible, which means when you're in it, it's filled with water. So it's not like you're in a little submarine like James Bond, all listening to iTunes with, with the freaking heater on. It's, it's like this tiny, they're not big, they're small and they fill up with water. Ocean water, not like warm water. Ocean water is around you.

• 52:26Speaker 01

  You can't move in it. There's a guy in front of you. And so like the dive profiles get so, um, you know, I went to SDV school. I crashed the SDV like before I graduated, which was great because I ended up becoming a backseat guy and I got to do the real world mish. But I was like, I'll never forget, I had an officer next to me. I can't remember his name. He was a total dick and, and he was like so bossy. He's a new officer. He knows he wants to, he wants to lead me. And, and I'm, but we drive, they nav. So I got the stick. I'm like, you know, controlling the ballast. I'm like, you know, and I was like, hey, uh, sir, I think there's like, there's something in front of us. He's like, just stay on this course. And I'm like, ah, I don't know. He's like, it's just artifact. I'm like, I think that's a thing. And I was like, so I was, I was like, okay, fine. So like crank it up.

• 53:11Speaker 01

  And I'm like accelerate and I hit it and it was like out in the middle of OSHA was like one of those like rock little jetties with the, with the little lighthouse on it. And all of a sudden it was like, you know, we come rocketing out and all of a sudden it's like all the water drains out. It's like I'm like, so I like opened up the door and I like looked down. There's like land. I look at him. He's like, oh shit. Like we're there. And so that was the end of my driving career.

• 53:38Speaker 01

  And he was, he was pissed because I, I did, I said, okay, fine. And I just accelerated right into it. So graduated S D V school, go out to the team and, uh, you know, that's when I started learning like how sophisticated that really is and how, you know, it's super complicated. You're diving mixed gas, rebreathers and open circuit all in these various profiles throughout very long dives under, under pressure and

• 54:05Jocko Willink?

  Like 12 hours?

• 54:07Speaker 01

  Eight hours, like, yeah. And you, you'll switch on and off. So you'll be like, you know, you can't be on a rebreather, you know, because you get oxygen toxicity area. You can't be on all Heliox or Nitrox, or you can't be on all open circuit because of nitrogen narcosis. So you're like, and then you have these like computers with all these like lights that blink and like these huge like screens. And I could never remember like, I knew that double red was not good.

• 54:31Jocko Willink?

  Even I know that.

• 54:32Speaker 01

  It was like double red and I'd be like, ah, manually enter the air like, and I'm like, oh, double green. I, I think it's okay, solid. I'm good. And so there's a guy right in front of you and you can't move. So he sits in between your legs, all your gear and all your equipment gets shoved in the back and then everything's pitch black. So when we were training for the national tasking, like, Everything's by memory. Every single thing has a knot. Every single light has a signal, you know, because you're not using the OTS system, you know, because it can be heard. So everything is by feel. So everything begins like, you know, first you're in these huge tanks and then you're graduating up until you're in the ocean. So everything is in the pitch black.

• 55:16Speaker 01

  So like when things get out of sync, it gets very confusing. And then you have to FSA at the end. You have to take your rigs, click it to the outside and then the sub will surface. And then you like blow out, close your rebreather and kick away and then the sub leaves and then you're on the surface. And then you swim ashore, you know, and then you have underwater pingers that find you, like all that kind of stuff. So it was like at first, like not what I had like signed up to do. Like meanwhile, I'm like watching the news, you know, it's like, let's go. And I'm like underwater, like, like hand signal. So I wouldn't change it for anything in the world because of the team I got to be a part of, what we got to do. And the knowledge that I gained

• 56:01Speaker 01

  of that mobility platform, it was something that I think like within the teams is so like niche. And most people think, you know, because the STV guys always get like bad rap, you know, like, oh, freaking like STV guys, like, but I got out of that and then I got to augment damn neck. So seven days later after that deployment. So.

• 56:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that it's the, the attitude of like, oh, STV guys, like I, I don't know, at some point, and I was pretty young when I was like, yeah, you know what, that those guys freaking get my respect. And because it's a, I don't know, I talked to some of my friends, one of my friends in particular was like, who came from STV and was at whatever team we were at. And I remember he's a good dude, a solid dude and a like team, a reliable team guy that you would want to go with you on op. And one time we were talking, he was like, hey, man, we were doing like some exercise off of Korea.

• 57:03Jocko Willink?

  And you know, it's winter time and he was like, he's telling me the story and he's all like, he's all like in the like, this starts filling up with water. He's like, I don't want to do this anymore.

• 57:14Jocko Willink?

  Like he's like, I don't want to do this. I don't, this is not what I, this is not what I want to do. I don't want to do this anymore. Like literally having D O R thoughts, like he wants to quit after he's been in teams for 10 years, bro.

• 57:23Speaker 01

  People bolt. We've had team guys, I won't call them out, but like there was team guys that would freak panic. I mean, you can get, we had a, we had a chief, uh, in my second platoon who drowned and died. I mean, he got tangled up in the lines and a bottom up, you know, because they would bottom up underneath stuff and it was, uh, it's sketchy. There's lines everywhere. There's stuff going, everything's by, you have all this gear, all this equipment, all this stuff. Like it is, you have to maintain like a totally cool mind. And then when you get into like dry dock sheltering and in the real world and all those kinds of things, like things can go sideways. Quick. There's no, there's no mistakes. Matter of fact, I remember we were training for that, for that mission.

• 58:07Speaker 01

  How was that 80 feet on a rebreather with my buddy?

• 58:11Speaker 01

  My, my best friend, actually like we're down to the bottom. I remember like I had like a leak in my mask and I was like looking, I was like pointing, you know, doing the signal like, there's a problem. He's like typical, he's like, you're good. And I remember I was like, and the whole piece goes, and I was like, like, and I was like, and he looked at me, he's like, there is no buddy breathing. You're in like a full face mask. He's like, and I just remember him like,

• 58:33Jocko Willink?

  He's gonna watch you die.

• 58:34Speaker 01

  He just, he just looked at me like, you're dead. Like, and I remember I just was like,

• 58:39Jocko Willink?

  Just blow and go?

• 58:39Speaker 01

  Hey, blow and go from 80 feet.

• 58:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was wild. He's like, I'll never forget your face. It was hilarious. I was like, it was hilarious because I could never make that face again unless I'm about to die.

• 58:55Jocko Willink?

  We did, we used to do more sub ops than the regular teams.

• 58:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:58Jocko Willink?

  And so, you know, like I did a few trips of doing lockouts and stuff. And even that, you know, you're in this little freaking chamber and it's filling up with water and it's freezing cold. And you got it. What do we have? We'd have like weapons, bags and engine bags and all this stuff in there. And it's all claustrophobic and I'm, I'm, I'm very comfortable in the water.

• 59:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:16Jocko Willink?

  But like, guys did not like even that. And that's one, you know, one hundredth of what it's actually like. Cause when we do that, we'd be like, cool. Hey, we're gonna do, we're gonna do sub ops for a week or whatever, two weeks. You guys just like, oh, what are we doing for the rest of our lives? Sub ops. It's like, God, but you could kind of gut through something, right? You know, you learn you're gonna just gut through something. If that's just your life and you know, oh, we just did a 12 hour dive today. Cool. What are we doing tomorrow? A 12 hour dive?

• 59:47Speaker 01

  Oh, man, it never, it's like.

• 59:50Jocko Willink?

  You, you had to, uh, I mean, you, you gotta learn to relax. Like you can't freak out in those situations at all.

• 59:58Speaker 01

  No, no, like, you know, we used to always say like those who panic first die. If you panic, he'll die. I mean, the, the, what happened to, you know, that chief that died was, he got tangled up in some lines and, you know, then his mask got pulled off and there was no getting, there's no getting out. Like there's no, you're, it's pitch black, you know, and the worst is, you know, the bioluminescence, like all that kind of, you're like completely blinded. Um, you know, and then working all the way up to a national tasking with those guys and doing all that stuff. Um, matter of fact, uh, we had a, we were like getting to the point, we didn't know where we're going. We didn't know any of that information. Uh, still, you know, still classified to this day, probably always will be.

• 1:00:41Speaker 01

  And you're just getting sick of the same people, you know, the same prob, same personalities, the same dirty coffee cup, the same dude, the same, you know, it's the same. And we were traveling all around the country in different environments, like, you know, preparing for anything. And I remember finally our chief at the time was like, he called us smokers. And he got in big trouble because he's like, okay, this is it. We gotta settle all these beasts before we leave and deploy.

• 1:01:06Jocko Willink?

  You were like, oh.

• 1:01:08Speaker 01

  Well, at first I didn't really have problems with anybody. I was kind of just like, whatever. And um.

• 1:01:14Jocko Willink?

  So you were a new guy when this was going down? Was this your first?

• 1:01:17Speaker 01

  First.

• 1:01:17Jocko Willink?

  Damn, that's freaking savage, man.

• 1:01:19Speaker 01

  New guy. And so um, I was like, you know, I'm a super moto guy. Like, I was just like so, you know, fired up and.

• 1:01:27Jocko Willink?

  Did you know what you were getting into into when you got assigned SDVs?

• 1:01:30Speaker 01

  No. Well, I had read the old books about the dudes like in the tortito, like getting covered in grease and like squirting out of like a sewage pipe or whatever. Old school, you know, but that's, that's really all I knew about. I had no idea. Um, and uh, yeah, so like he had calls us smokers and we're getting ready to leave and he's like, hey, we're gonna put the board up here. Officers, unless it doesn't matter, everybody write your name on the board one five minute round.

• 1:01:55Jocko Willink?

  So by the way, yeah, that's just sort of, if you don't know, Echo, you know what smokers is? Yes, sir. Okay. Smokers is, hey, we're gonna, it's usually boxing. It's like, we're just gonna.

• 1:02:03Speaker 01

  It was boxing. Yeah.

• 1:02:04Jocko Willink?

  And they do it on ships too. They do, well, at least they used to. You used to have smokers on ships and smokers on Navy bases. We're just gonna go and box other people. So.

• 1:02:13Speaker 01

  That's what I'm like, the military was like tough back in the day, but it was a great, let me tell you something. It leveled the scores between a lot of people. And I didn't, so everybody like got up and they had to write your name on the board with the guy that you wanted to fight. And of course, like some guys jumped up right away and like wrote the guy's name down and, and I just kind of sat back. I'm like, and then this dude gets up and he's one of the divers and he writes my name on the board. I was like, I didn't know he had like a problem. So I was like, so we go.

• 1:02:41Jocko Willink?

  And he didn't know you freaking boxed until you were 10 years old.

• 1:02:44Speaker 01

  Well, I wore all my shit. So we like, so everybody starts coming to me and they're like, hey, like, help me out. They're all nervous now. And then so I'm working with some guys, a week goes by. It's like a Friday night or something. We show up there and. And I wore like my old boxing trunks, you know, custom gloves, all my stuff, no headgear. I didn't want anything. My gold teeth, like mouthpiece in, I put it in, I'm like. And so when I was in the medic course, I actually was sparring partner for Ray Mercer.

• 1:03:13Jocko Willink?

  Damn.

• 1:03:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, that kind of ended my hopes of like thinking that I was gonna be like great someday. I don't know, you know, we, you know, men are like, we just kind of think like. But I ended up, I, so like to backtrack a little bit, I started boxing again while I was going through the medic course in Fort Bragg for a year. And I end up fighting in the North Carolina State Prison. So boxing the guys like Bernard Hopkins and then they come up out of the prison programs. And so I went in there, went through all the security stuff, whatever, and I fight like, you know, various rounds, kind of like a tournament style. And I end up winning to like the top guy, well, it was a draw with the top guy and he was like the scariest dude.

• 1:03:53Speaker 01

  I'm telling you, he was like the biggest, scariest dude. He was doing like seventeen to life and Ray Mercer was there. And so his coach saw me boxing or whatever and was like, hey, Ray's like getting back in the game, which he did. And he ended up fighting like Tim Sylvia.

• 1:04:08Jocko Willink?

  Oh, that's right.

• 1:04:10Speaker 01

  Crushed his face in. Okay, Ray Mercer, people don't remember, like that guy was an animal.

• 1:04:14Jocko Willink?

  Beast.

• 1:04:15Speaker 01

  He crushed.

• 1:04:16Jocko Willink?

  Unfortunately, he lost to Kimbo Slice.

• 1:04:18Speaker 01

  Ray Mercer did?

• 1:04:19Jocko Willink?

  Yep, in MMA, yep. But the funny thing is they didn't box, like somehow, I think if I remember right, Kimbo Slice got him in a guillotine. And Ray, and Ray was like, I don't know what this is, but I thought we were gonna fight.

• 1:04:36Jocko Willink?

  It's like, I thought we were gonna fight, so.

• 1:04:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, so like I started, I was.

• 1:04:39Jocko Willink?

  So did you do like a camp with him?

• 1:04:41Speaker 01

  So no, so I started boxing with him on the weekends, like sparring partner, getting him in shape. And so, you know, I grew up watching Ray Mercer, you know, he devastated Tommy Morrison, he lost to Lennox Lewis. He was a brutal dude. He'd never been knocked down. He had a head like a, you know, like a giant block of cheese. And, and he was merciless. I mean, if you watch that knockout against Tommy Morrison, who was like my hero at the time, you know, before he got AIDS.

• 1:05:08Speaker 01

  But like, I mean, when he beat him down, I remember he said, he's like, you know, you can kill somebody in boxing. That's like all he said. It was like very like that like, is he okay or anything? And when he lost to Lennox Lewis, which was controversial, actually, that kind of ended his career. I had some more fights like along the way, but when he hit Tim Sylvia, he caved his whole head in. I mean, if you watch that clip on YouTube, I mean, it's brutal. So I'm in there boxing with him. I have a couple of great shots of me and him boxing together, and he hit me so hard one time that for the first time, I like kneel down on the ground. I wasn't really sure. Like, I'm on like roller skates. And I remember I was like hurt for like a week. And I started thinking in my head like, man, if this is how like people are hitting like at this

• 1:05:52Speaker 01

  level, I don't, I think I'll die. Cause I don't have a huge neck. I don't know. I just got like more of like a noodle neck. Like, no matter how hard I work, I need the iron neck or whatever. But yeah, so I, so I boxed with him and then I just, I just stayed in shape, you know, or whatever. Once I left there, I had three amateur fights and then boxed with Ray and then whatever, went in the teams. And so we show up at the smokers and so I got all my trunks. I got all my stuff. I got my shoes on, my little tassels and everything. And I got the whole thing in there. And he's looking at me over there with his like, you know, I don't know, off brand boxing gloves

• 1:06:30Speaker 01

  or whatever. And he just comes over, he's like, hey, man, I just, I don't, I don't know why I signed up for that. I don't really have a problem with you or anything like that. It's just, are we good? I'm like, you're dead. And we got in there and I let him like punch me around for like 30 seconds. I hit him one time, knocked him out. Cold. And so the shout out to my chief because like he got in big trouble because some guys got hurt and they couldn't dive because they're, because you know, their noses. It was like dudes, dudes got beat up. So yeah, so it was, it was a good experience. You know, I really, really fortunate that I went there. You know, it was, it was a unique experience. And then I, and then seven days later, well, while underway, I got told I was getting,

• 1:07:15Speaker 01

  getting augment and to TF373. So.

• 1:07:19Jocko Willink?

  And where'd you go for that?

• 1:07:21Speaker 01

  Uh, well, I went damn neck, did like a train up with them and then went to Afghanistan to an outstation.

• 1:07:28Jocko Willink?

  And how was that deployment?

• 1:07:30Speaker 01

  That one was rough. That one, we lost Josh Harris. So I was with him when he died. I was right next to him and then Jason Freewald and John Markham. So that was a tough one. And so, you know, that was my first experience in real war, you know, I mean, what I had just come off though, like the implications were so high, like the intensity that if anything went wrong, like literally no one's coming to get you, like, you know, it's not going to be good. So, but it was completely different, you know, than being shot at in the desert. So,

• 1:08:09Speaker 01

  you know, it was a, that was a really good experience. And then it kind of just like, you know, up to my aspirations. I got to work with some incredible people. And do a lot of really cool missions and kind of do the stuff that I had been hoping to do from when I was sitting there at nine 11 and I had a, you know, an vision of what I was going to do.

• 1:08:26Jocko Willink?

  Were you guys doing like pretty much just DAs?

• 1:08:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:30Jocko Willink?

  Was that, was that what you were doing?

• 1:08:31Speaker 01

  Do DAs, a lot of like SRS and stuff like that. A lot of overwatches for the army, you know, in various areas. We were at a lot of remote outstations. And then we were with the the people that I later went on to work for. We were kind of the military component for them. So.

• 1:08:47Jocko Willink?

  And so the op tempo was high?

• 1:08:48Speaker 01

  Op tempo was high. It was 2008. So.

• 1:08:51Jocko Willink?

  And you're just living the dream.

• 1:08:53Speaker 01

  Living the dream. Like, I mean, riding dirt bikes. Like I'm just like living the dream. And then when Josh died, you know, that was my first experience with losing somebody. And then it just was like really real to me. You know, it just, everything changed after that for me.

• 1:09:12Speaker 01

  And that, that mission was, you know, he drowned.

• 1:09:17Speaker 01

  So that was, the way that whole thing went down, that was, that was tough. That was, that was a tough one. And then the guys that were with us, you know, Jason got killed on entry. He got shot in the stomach and then John Markham got shot in the neck on that. So that was a huge loss in 2008, you know, for the teams.

• 1:09:36Jocko Willink?

  So when you, when you say, when you say like things changed, or you changed, or it changed, what was, what was like the change? Was it, hey, all of a sudden, oh? Were not immortal or what was the change that you were?

• 1:09:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that was it. Like, I think I had this like, I had this like immortality idea in my head. Where I could outsmart, outrun, outshoot, outdo anything. And then uh, the realism when someone's wrapped in a flag on a helicopter, you know, as a young guy, I was just like, the implications were so high. I have a great picture at my house. Um, I don't have a lot of military stuff at my house. I have some stuff in my office, but because I don't want to influence my son, you know, I try to, you know, I don't want him to feel that, you know, and uh,

• 1:10:25Speaker 01

  it's a picture that was taken by an OGA guy of me that he sent to me later on and I was standing out looking over the corn gall. And uh, I couldn't believe like where I'd come from. And then I'm like standing here with these people, like these men, you know, like who are, were giants to me, you know, because like I said, I became like a historian. I read every book, everything, every, there's probably not a book on the teams that I didn't read. This was before like a lot of books were coming out. They're like old school books. And I really believed like in the brotherhood, like in the old school, like do everything together kind of mentality. Uh, matter of fact, Kirby Harrell, he's like an old school team guy.

• 1:11:08Speaker 01

  Uh, and he was like, I'll never forget, we were like sitting drinking a beer one day when I was a new guy and he's like, he's like you and you know, this other guy is like, you guys are like the spirit of like the old teams, like the old teams, like just, and I, I mean, I was, I like lived it. I loved it. And uh,

• 1:11:28Speaker 01

  so, you know, going to actual war though, it's very humbling, you know, and it kind of puts you like in a place where you realize like, this is like super dangerous. Because to be honest with you, I didn't really think that way at the time, you know?

• 1:11:44Jocko Willink?

  Real quick Kirby Harrell story, because it's just awesome.

• 1:11:48Speaker 01

  He's Kirby.

• 1:11:50Jocko Willink?

  He was on the podcast and he's talking about the Phoenix program and he's like, yeah. He goes, so he, we'd, we'd go up and I was talking to him because you know, I have a little bit of perspective of like what doing missions are like. So I was like, so, so how would you know what, what like hut you're going into in a village? And he's like, oh, well, I would, I would a source tell you like, hey, it's three huts down on the right. And he's like, yep, that's what happened. I go, that's cool. And so there's one op, they're in a, in a little sampan, him and one other guy. And they go into this village and he, and so he's telling the story and he goes, yeah, you know, so I went in there and I went into the third hut on the right or whatever it was. Knocked the guy out. I come out, throw him in the boat.

• 1:12:35Jocko Willink?

  And so I'm thinking, I'm like, that's cool. And I go, I go, uh, how did you knock him out? He goes, and he go, without missing a beat. I go, I go, how'd you knock him out? He goes, ball peen hammer.

• 1:12:46Jocko Willink?

  So like, you see him on his web gear, he's got a ball peen hammer, his freaking web gear, just whack a dude in the head and that's that.

• 1:12:54Speaker 01

  That's so bad. That's so badass. Back when the men were iron and the ships were wooden. Yeah.

• 1:13:02Jocko Willink?

  How long was that deployment to Afghanistan that you?

• 1:13:04Speaker 01

  Uh, I think we were so four months. Yeah. Months like working up, getting ready and then.

• 1:13:09Jocko Willink?

  Were you still actually technically attached to SDV and you were there TAD?

• 1:13:13Speaker 01

  Yep. Yep. I was there TAD.

• 1:13:14Jocko Willink?

  So, so when you got done with that deployment, what happened?

• 1:13:18Speaker 01

  I went into, uh, well, I went into another platoon, like basically, uh, I got home. My girlfriend, now wife, we've been together for 15 years now, um, married for 10. And she picked me up at the airport and I showed up to drop all my gear off. I got my car.

• 1:13:37Jocko Willink?

  This is coming home from deployment.

• 1:13:39Speaker 01

  Coming home from deployment. I get picked up, uh, no fanfare, obviously at the command, like, and just get all your stuff and um, hung out with some of the guys for a couple of days and then headed out and uh, I get back to the command and so I was with slab. Uh, so after Josh and I got, went to another base, got to kind of know him and um, which obviously is like, was an icon, you know, looking up to him or whatever, just like a really great leader, like real, real quiet, real steady, like, you know. Um, got to meet him and I was like, I want to go screen and go to the command or whatever. And so. Some guys like reached out about me, you know, putting my package in and all that kind of stuff. And so it's like a Saturday or something. I get to the, I get my car, get all my stuff.

• 1:14:22Speaker 01

  Tell my girlfriend that I'm gonna meet her and drop everything off and the master chief's there. And so he sees me in the locker room. He's like, come on up. This is the SDV? Master chief. Check. Yeah. I didn't like. And so I, uh, I, I'm down there like getting all my stuff. Just home from deployment like, and to be honest with you, like, looking back, like,

• 1:14:47Speaker 01

  that whole, like, there was a lot that happened. Like, that was like a lot because I just did back to back. So, I mean, I was like, hadn't been there in like a long time and all this stuff had gone down. And here I am like checking in, thinking I'm gonna like get some time off or whatever. He goes up in the office and he's like, okay, I want to talk to you. Come on upstairs. And he goes, so, uh, you know, you just got back? I'm like, yeah, I just got back like right now, you know? And then he's like, so you think you're gonna like go over there and like screen? Is that what you think? And I was like, I'm like, what? Like apparently some people had sent some emails and said, hey, we want him to come over, blah, blah, whatever. And, and I was like, yeah. He's like, whoa. You know, they're not in charge of Manning. I am, he says to me.

• 1:15:31Speaker 01

  And I was like, I, thinking about my headspace at the time, you know, I was like not in a good headspace. And I was like, I, I said something inflammatory, I think. And he went like crazy. He started like screaming at me. He came over the desk, like got in my face, you know? And he's like, you'll go where I tell you to go and da, da, da. And I was like, then I'll fucking get out. You know, like, I, I mean, I've had that kind of attitude. And so we get in this huge thing. I get a text message from the chief. He tells me, hey, um, gear ready on Sunday, 96 hour SR. I'm like, okay, so I like unpack my gear, call my girlfriend, I'm like packing out. So I roll right into another platoon, uh, two days later.

• 1:16:16Speaker 01

  And, uh, I was pretty bitter about that. Uh, nobody like asked me how I was doing. Nobody was like, hey, like, what's going on? Like, are you know, how was your trip? Like, next thing I know, I'm like, literally like dudes with orange vests walking around looking for me with like rubber shape. Like laying in the bushes like.

• 1:16:36Speaker 01

  I was so mad. I can't describe how mad I was. Uh, the only thing I could do was think about how mad I was and that would be impossible for me to get any madder like. Or like I would explode. So, um, I go through, you know, I go through that. I ended up, I hurt my hand, uh, and end up rolling out of that platoon. Right before the tasking, I got a pretty severe arterial injury in my hand. And, uh, so then I go to, like he said, go to trade at M D six and go to trade at.

• 1:17:07Jocko Willink?

  Is this like S D V trade at? Or did you go to?

• 1:17:09Speaker 01

  Oh, it was like standoff weapons that we had. It was like, no, it was like S D V. Truth, I forget what it's called, something.

• 1:17:16Jocko Willink?

  So you're still at S D V?

• 1:17:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:18Jocko Willink?

  But you're in the training.

• 1:17:19Speaker 01

  I'm in the training department. So I'm like going to Seattle a lot and, you know, working over in those regions or whatever. And then, uh, and then I got out, uh, because, and then I tried to screen for. Well, I went into the reserves immediately and then tried to screen for CAG. Uh, and the reserve unit wouldn't let me go. So then I tried to go from the reserve unit. I remember the mass chief at the time and he wanted me to go cell rez. Uh, for two years and serve my time at the reserves before I could go over there because this isn't going to be a stepping stone. Everything I was trying to do was try to get the opportunity to go over there. So then, uh, I ended up, uh, I won't say his name because he ended up getting a lot of trouble, but I ended up meeting, getting picked up and doing a job in Iraq.

• 1:18:00Speaker 01

  For, uh, during the, I think it was a status of forces agreement that was going on at the time, doing like PSD stuff.

• 1:18:07Jocko Willink?

  So now you're a contractor.

• 1:18:08Speaker 01

  So now I'm a contractor.

• 1:18:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I was like picking up schools and stuff and going to schools or whatever and trying to like, we, you know, figure out how I could like weasel my way like back into active duty. That's all I wanted to do. And I was just really got out of pure spite. I was just so angry like and I look back at like my state and I was like, man, like luckily I'm like a fairly, I mean that sound like it, but I'm like a steady headed person because I was like really like a roller coaster of emotions like I I had just experienced all this stuff in a nutshell. And next thing you know, I'm like felt like I was being shitted on, you know? So I um, I'm in Iraq and I'm like standing at the green bean and I see a guy who knows me and he's like starts talking. He's like, oh, hey, what are you

• 1:18:54Speaker 01

  doing? I was like, I told him what I was doing. He's like, give me your email. I I got another job for you. And so I ended up going over to uh, you know, contracting for the CIA. Yeah. And I did like almost four years over there.

• 1:19:09Jocko Willink?

  And did you go, what what did that, you know, from what you can say, that's cool to say, was that, did you get some immediate training? Were they like, hey, you're good on your training? What would you have to do?

• 1:19:21Speaker 01

  I was the only team guy that made it out of the training. Me and three other guys. Uh,

• 1:19:28Speaker 01

  first of all, I didn't really like, I had an idea, but he wouldn't tell me anything. And I got, how it went down was like, I got a random email being like, you know, you've been like recommended for training. Can you be here on a, you know, whatever the date was? And I was in Iraq. So I remember I went to this guy. It was like a total toolbag. He was like some like army guy or something. And I was like, oh, hey, I gotta like get out of here. I got like a family health problem. And he's like, you can't leave here. I was like, I'll walk right out of this gate and I'll get on that airplane. I'm like, you don't own me. I'll do whatever I want, you know? So finally, like they they like, they they made me fly Comair. So I'm like,

• 1:20:02Jocko Willink?

  Micah, I do whatever I want, Frank.

• 1:20:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, because I was like, I'm taking this job. Like, I want this job. And so I couldn't have got out of there and made it to training. So I end up flying Comair out. And I'm like, rethinking everything I was about to like Baghdad airport, like, there's no Orange Julius is there. And and I'm like, one of these guys is not like the others. So I fly back and two days later, I'm in training and uh, at an undisclosed facility and it's like, go, Todd. Like, can you perform? Like, show up here on the line? Nobody talking, nobody's saying anything. Like, nobody's like, I mean, it's like vetting and it's like, I don't know, it's like four or five weeks.

• 1:20:49Speaker 01

  All over in various locations and I show up, it was really funny because I'm checking into the hotel in one of the states and of course I'm in the lobby and I look around, it's like typical contractors, like you know, huge like American flag heads, beards, like everyone's like low pro. Clearly like, clearly we're all here together, you know, everyone's calling everyone brother, like, and like even the, even the guy at the front desk is a brother. And, and so we check into the, we check, we check in and I, my roommate is a team guy buddy of mine. And so as we're like in, like, he's like a good buddy of mine. And I didn't even

• 1:21:32Speaker 01

  know he was there. So we're there and he didn't make it. But the, so I get a text message from overseas, like, watch the news tonight. Okay. Bin Laden goes down. And I'm in the hotel like, no way, you know, and of course, you know, then you got all, you got all the SEAL experts on there describing exactly how they did it. Like, right. It was like, it was like the, it was like the Captain Phillips thing, you know, they had that dude with like, I forget who it was, like Brandon Webber or something. It was like a watermelon, like swinging slowly. And he's like, shooting it with a 50 cal, like showing how like difficult it would have been to hit the watermelon. But, so I'm like glued to the news. Show up the next morning,

• 1:22:13Speaker 01

  we got like selection starts and, you know, PT tests, all those kinds of things. And the quals were super hard.

• 1:22:20Jocko Willink?

  Shooting quals?

• 1:22:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, they were very difficult. Like, that's what got most people was the quals. And then the CQB, I mean, it's, and then they never like, there's no coaching. There's no like, if you don't make, pass these tests at this time, you're just, you just go away. Like a van just pulls up and you just leave. There's no like, hey, bro, you think you can do better next time? Like, I mean, I've, I mean, we're, I was there with cat guys, team guys, like everybody. And so I get to the end, there's only four of us left. And now I'm kind of figuring, I'm in a total state of paranoia too, because every movie I ever watched about the CIA is like playing in my head, you know, I like turned the sync on, I'm waiting for like a cable to come out and like, look at me or whatever, you

• 1:23:03Speaker 01

  know, like everything, everybody is like, everybody's on it, which is kind of funny because when I went through the surveillance course and I actually got busted by like a big fat lady in a KFC.

• 1:23:15Speaker 01

  She like busted me. Ah, so I was like, you know, there is those kind of people. So they don't discriminate by that.

• 1:23:21Jocko Willink?

  I, I was doing like some counter surveillance thing and I was, I was in San Diego and I was all dressed up like a bum. And, uh, and I'm like sitting there and I'm all freaking dirty and shitty and, and I got busted and I got busted because I had my watch on. And like this, you know, so just like whoever we were surveilling, whatever it was surveilling the surveillers or whatever.

• 1:23:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:48Jocko Willink?

  And like, we got back to the debrief and they're like, hey, you know, Jaco freaking nice watch. They're like, you got rolled up because of that. You know, everyone, everyone was like, look at you look like a bum with this freaking, uh, Iron Man watch on.

• 1:24:02Speaker 01

  This is the healthiest bum ever.

• 1:24:04Jocko Willink?

  This was before everyone had like the big tactical watches that everybody has now.

• 1:24:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:08Jocko Willink?

  But at back in the day, I guess this was sort of like a big tactical watch.

• 1:24:14Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 1:24:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, the old school. That's funny.

• 1:24:17Jocko Willink?

  So not so only a few of you get through this.

• 1:24:20Speaker 01

  Few of us make it through. Yeah. And so some of the guys got the opportunity to try it, you know, they were good dudes and they had them try again, but the quals were like, I mean.

• 1:24:27Jocko Willink?

  Were you always a good shooter?

• 1:24:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was always a good shooter. Uh, I don't, not that I grew up, I grew up like, you know, deer hunting like, but like, I always laugh because now I'm like big archery hunter and stuff and, and, and actually a hunter, but when I grew up like hunting was like, you know, shooting out of the back of the truck and like a deer, like at a cornfield and like, you know, like that, that was hunting. Like, you know, like our hunting gear was like, you know, like a Swansea snowsuit was like, you bought on Walmart. Yeah, exactly. And a six pack. It was like bubba hunting. Um, but.

• 1:24:58Jocko Willink?

  Well, you must have good hand eye coordination from maybe from boxing and everything to just go in there and knock the shit out of a course like that. That's legit.

• 1:25:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. And the pistol, I mean, the pistol shooting was like, they had this one called the rundown. Uh, so it was. You line up on the 100, alright, and then you would sprint to the 200, drop down, two shots prone.

• 1:25:18Jocko Willink?

  Damn.

• 1:25:18Speaker 01

  And then you'd sprint to the... No, no, no, this is rifle.

• 1:25:21Jocko Willink?

  Oh, I thought you were talking pistol. I was like, damn.

• 1:25:23Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:25:23Jocko Willink?

  This is no joke. 200 yard freaking shots.

• 1:25:27Speaker 01

  Double O, nine. So, um, no, but this was a tough one. So it's full kit on. And then you would start, you had to have six mags and with two rounds in each mag. You'd start at the 100, sprint to the 200, drop down, two shots prone. Then sprint to the 100, two shots kneeling, then sprint to the 50, two shots standing. Then to the 25, two headshots, then to the seven, two headshots, mag change in between every one. You had two minutes and minimum score 24 on a IPsec.

• 1:25:57Speaker 01

  That got a lot of guys. And then six seconds, four shots from the concealed 25 yards. On the pistol. So that was, and you can't miss.

• 1:26:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's gonna, it's gonna.

• 1:26:07Speaker 01

  And then there's like, you know, then by the time you get through all that, then you got like CQB. So I'm like.

• 1:26:13Jocko Willink?

  And this is the interesting thing about this is no workup. It's not like you went through, you came off some shooting school or you like, okay, hey, let's get you guys all dialed in. Here's your test. It's just like, hey, welcome. Here's your test.

• 1:26:23Speaker 01

  Yes. And you're, you're basically testing the whole time because it's like a vetting. And, uh, it was really funny because we show up and we're at like the, uh, the Dwayne Dieter thing. So I thought I was done with that because I went through that in SQT, you know, okay, you hit me in the head with a thing. It hurts and I, I know this is deadly like, but you know, how they gotta do the most level one. Everyone's a level three. It depends who you, you know, if you got somebody, a meathead, they're gonna hit you with it. So I'm thinking I'm done with that. I show up there and I'm like, oh no, like karate chops to the head like. So we go through all that stuff. We get done. There's another series of quals at the end. You finish that off and then you get offered a job and get ready to start deploying. And then every two years you have to redo it.

• 1:27:08Speaker 01

  Uh, and if you fail, you're done. So there's like this looming pressure of like, I have to redo all these things. Uh, and then it gets more like, I went through that and then it gets more like, uh, training. There's like, you still have to qual, but there's more training involved. But that, the initial one was just the vetting out and that was tough. That was some of the toughest training that I ever went through.

• 1:27:30Jocko Willink?

  So now you get to that job and you're starting to conduct operations. Obviously, there's only so much we can say about the operations, you know, where you're conducting them and kind of what you're doing. But broadly speaking, what was your, what was your tasking?

• 1:27:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, so um, tasking was to, you know, protect, uh, you know, CIA personnel, like, you know, around the world, you know, they conduct their missions. Uh, so it's, uh, it's intense and you work all the time. There is no moratorium. There is no standing down. There is no, you know, you're, you're employed and it's onesies and twosies. Um, and then there's also like the high vis military side where you're doing the paramilitary stuff depending on what bases you're at. So I was a team leader at a couple of bases where it's like full on, I mean, it's full on military, like you're, you know, you got a whole, you got a whole team of guys underneath you. And, uh, yeah, it's, uh, looking at it from that side and looking at it from the military side is just so

• 1:28:29Speaker 01

  different. Like it's unbelievable. Um, and so, yeah, I was, uh,

• 1:28:34Jocko Willink?

  The team of guys that you're talking about are not Americans?

• 1:28:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, not Americans. Yeah. And, uh, and you know, people can say what they want about those guys and I wouldn't say I trusted all of them, but you really develop a relationship, you know, you, you rely on these guys and, you know, watching Afghanistan fall and it was hard, you know, it was hard. Matter of fact, I met some of the guys recently that got out of the country uh, last month. Uh, they reached out to me and they're, they're here somewhere, living in the refugee camp, basically. And, uh, they were telling me about what happened to a bunch of our guys. I mean, held against the walls, shish kebab, Spears, stuff through their hearts, you know, I mean, like brutally killed. Um, so it was, uh, it was tough. I had a good relationship with those guys. So, uh, some of them are here in the States, actually. Uh, funny enough, like

• 1:29:19Speaker 01

  one of them like re, I don't know, they don't, we don't use our names, but one of the guys somehow like found me and like reached out to like my secretary, like, I was like, my name is like so and so Mohammed, like, you know, I'm looking for Mike and they sent it to me. I'm like, take everything off the internet, like, yeah.

• 1:29:40Jocko Willink?

  That's bizarre.

• 1:29:41Speaker 01

  It is bizarre. And he, you know, it was, uh, I sat down for, matter of fact, what happened was I was, I won't say where I was, but I was in a state for work a month ago. My plane gets canceled.

• 1:29:57Speaker 01

  So I'm like, kind of wandering around like, oh my God, I gotta like, get another hotel and do all this stuff. I walk into the parking garage and I hear somebody calling me by my call sign. Of course, like my spidey senses like just perk up. I don't, there's not a lot of people that know that. And I like turn and look and it's two of my guys, like where I was the team leader of that place for three deployments. And, uh, and he's like, you know, I'm like, like what's happening right now? So I ended up like going back to their house with them. And having dinner at this, which is like, it's a wicked refugee camp. I just ran into him at the airport. All right?

• 1:30:37Speaker 01

  So I sit down and when we go off, I'll show you some pictures of me with him. But, uh, yeah, they started telling me like what happened to all these guys. I mean, dude, it's like,

• 1:30:47Speaker 01

  that guy is all he's ever done since he was 20 years old was work for the Americans. I mean, his family's been killed, houses burned down, people have been beheaded. Um, I mean, they've been tortured. I mean, it's, it's, it's rough. Yeah.

• 1:31:01Jocko Willink?

  This, the amount of people that worked with America in Afghanistan is like a massive number. It's a massive number to think like, oh, well, there's only a small amount of people that are gonna bear the burden. It's like, there's a massive number of people that work with Americans.

• 1:31:15Speaker 01

  Well, if you look at, uh, you know, kind of in my work with my foundation, um, if you look at the number of, of people that have served in the war, Americans, right? 2.7 million Americans served in the global war on terrorism, 20 years, right? So 7,000 died in the war over 20 years. 1,500 are amputated. So that's point 00026%.

• 1:31:39Speaker 01

  Point 0056% are those who have died, right? And then you look at the fallout though, from the war. So we just, we look at those hard numbers, right? But we don't look at the cost of it. And you look at only 4.5% of them are, you know, American veterans attempting to start businesses or be entrepreneurs. You know, there's 50,000 nonprofits in North America, two in six veterans on psychiatric medications. And between 2005 and the end of 2020, 155,000 guys have killed themselves. So people say, well, you know, some of those guys were other vets or whatever, you know, that didn't serve in there. They were Vietnam vets. It doesn't matter. Like, that's a huge

• 1:32:21Speaker 01

  number. That's every 64 minutes. And so we look at those numbers and the fallout on American culture. And then you got to look at the fallout on the host nation culture. And that will be felt for generations. Like, and then what we did, like, I don't mean we, but like, what our nation did, like, we're no longer like a force of righteousness and of good. Like, we are, we are colonialists that have destroyed the foundation and fabric. Matter of fact, I was talking to Andy, he said, like, what is it, 98% of all people in Afghanistan didn't know

• 1:33:01Speaker 01

  Osama bin Laden was and didn't know 9/11 had happened. Right? So, so we just think about our cost of war. But then you got to look at the long-term cost of what's the displacement within societies. And it's going to come home to roost. I mean, I was listening to, there was a general who supported us when I worked on the other side of the house.

• 1:33:24Speaker 01

  He was a badass. Matter of fact, I have a T-shirt with his face on it. I work out with it all the time. He was a, he was a real, he was committed to the cause. And he was, we just, we just abandoned him. And they, they, these guys told me they just tortured him viciously. And this is a guy that for, for 15 years, 15 years dedicated his whole life to our nation. And they, you know, they told me what they did, what they did to him. And I was just like, man.

• 1:33:56Speaker 01

  It's not like, there's a cost, there's a huge cost, you know, and I think the cost is felt on our, on our soldiers here.

• 1:34:06Speaker 01

  You know, I think that the enemy that we were fighting is not, it's not like, it's not like, you know, they're not like Chinese or like Russians, and you know, these guys didn't have drones, they didn't have bombers, they don't have any of that kind of stuff. You know, they, they had, you know, weapons that were, you know, that they took from the Russians, seventies, and running around in flip flops and like pajamas. And, and the ones that fought alongside of us believed in us, that we, they took us at our word. That we would, you know, that we would honor our commitment to them as a people and as a nation. And think about the girls and going to school and the children and, um, my heart breaks for it.

• 1:34:51Speaker 01

  There's nothing I can do, I'm a pawn, I'm a minion, like in the scope of things, but, but I, you know, I think that the karma is gonna come home and it's gonna haunt this nation. You know, I think you look, I look at my little children, I got, you know, my fifth kid about to be born and, and I think about, what does fifty years look like, right, fifty years?

• 1:35:17Speaker 01

  It's, it's gonna come home, it's gonna come home to us, and you could see the hurt, and you know what? These guys, I'm sitting there eating dinner with them, and I'm eating the foot bread, I'm sitting in there, of course, I'm waiting for somebody to come out and stab like a antenna in the side of my head. I'm like, I cannot believe I'm in this situation, but I show you these pictures, I'm like, I'm like, I can't, first of all, they're in like abject poverty, alright, they're like in these refugee camps where it's like, no wheels on the vehicles, shit everywhere, and like, here, here you go, thanks for helping us out. And, um, you know, I just, uh, you know, I have a heart, I have a heart for people, that's my life, my life is people, and I see that hurt, whether they're,

• 1:35:56Speaker 01

  you know, Afghani or American or whatever, um, I see the hurt because it adds to the global collective, you know? And you can, everybody can feel it, they can feel the whole world changing right now. And, you know, I think that hammer is gonna come home, I think it's gonna hit us right in the face, you know?

• 1:36:19Jocko Willink?

  So how long did you continue to work doing that job with OGA?

• 1:36:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I I did it for almost four years and

• 1:36:34Jocko Willink?

  And what was the op tempo? How often were you going on deployment? How often were you home?

• 1:36:37Speaker 01

  It was I was every sixty days to ninety days depending on where I was and what I was doing. Sometimes I get extended or whatever. And that's about all you could take of that job before you just got completely burned out.

• 1:36:53Jocko Willink?

  So it's sixty to ninety day deployment?

• 1:36:56Speaker 01

  Thirty days home.

• 1:36:56Jocko Willink?

  And then thirty days home?

• 1:37:01Jocko Willink?

  Is it, yeah, like when you come home, how long does it take you to reset and freaking enjoy your life before you're like, well, I gotta go back again in four days or whatever?

• 1:37:10Speaker 01

  You don't. You don't. I never get out of that zone. I would come home and be

• 1:37:18Speaker 01

  I was so intense. You know, I was I was an intense person and I didn't have, I wasn't on Facebook. I didn't, I'm not I didn't live that. My whole life was isolated. I have like the same friends, like the same people, you know, the same job. I I didn't like I wasn't out there. My I would come home and I would be very distracted like I because I always knew that I had to like leave again. And then in in two thousand and fourteen, I was in a

• 1:37:47Speaker 01

  really significant ordeal. I would say it was like up there in my top two or three events I had in my, you know, military, paramilitary career was Actually, I would say it's probably the top, like it was the most insane gunfire and combat and carnage that I've ever been involved in. And

• 1:38:10Speaker 01

  you know, that's when I kind of was like enough was enough for me. I'd had enough at that point, you know, so that's kind of when

• 1:38:20Speaker 01

  My whole world fell apart, really, because I didn't have that anchor anymore. And that, that, that had become my identity. Like, when that identity went away, you know, I was kind of left spiraled with all these experiences and skills and things. And now I had no mission, no purpose, like.

• 1:38:38Jocko Willink?

  What, what was different about that event? That, I mean, you'd had your buddies been killed before. You'd done missions where there's a ton of pressure. You've been in gunfights. Like, what was, why was that particular event the straw that broke the camel's back?

• 1:38:55Speaker 01

  Because there's no community.

• 1:38:58Speaker 01

  You know, you're a gun for hire. And there's no community. It's not like I come home and I'm like with the team. I'm with all my buddies. I'm in my platoon. I got the people, I got the things, I got this culture. I show up and I'm with different people from different units. I got two CAD guys here and a Green Beret here and a, you know, a CCT guy here, you know? And you become friends and you, yeah, there is a brotherhood. But then I may never see those, I may never work with them again. I may be over here, you know? So that, so when you go home, it's kind of just like, oh, you're just like, you just get on the airplane. I mean, when I came home, I flew through DC.

• 1:39:35Speaker 01

  I still had like, you know, pieces of concrete, like, you know, I was still banged up, like, and I just like arrive home at the airport, like, and then that's just it. There's no, nobody calls and says like, you okay? Like, what's going on? Like, how's the family? Like, nothing. You're just, I'm living in a rural area by myself with my wife and kids and I'm, you know, there's, I, you feel like you have nobody.

• 1:39:59Jocko Willink?

  Did your wife have any idea what's going on?

• 1:40:01Speaker 01

  Not re, I mean, yeah. I mean, I didn't like tell her stuff, but she could just tell. Matter of fact, when I left and I, and I resigned, I, um, there, and there was a lot of reasons for that, but, um, I remember my, my daughter, my middle daughter said to me, mom always sits in the car and cries every day and by herself. And I was like, and I was like, about what? You know, like, so like, I went over there and I remember I was like, why are you crying in the car? Like, what's going on? And she's like, you're just, you're so intense. Like, and I, I didn't say anything. I mean, I wasn't like chatting it up, but I just radiated a form of intensity, like, at any minute, I'm ready to go. And.

• 1:40:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, if it wasn't for horses and what I'm doing right now, I'm probably, I don't know, I look at the state of veterans today and I don't think that people understand the severity of what's happening to our culture, especially like kind of where we come from, you know, and my, my, my career is a, just a fraction of, of, of you living a lifetime in that, you know, and, uh,

• 1:41:14Speaker 01

  but it has a huge impact on you long-term and we forget about those people. And like I was kind of rattling off some of those statistics, like, I mean, if you look at having 50,000 nonprofits in North America for vets, 50,000, between 2012 and the end of 2020, we spent $92 billion. All right, the top five nonprofits for veterans have billions of dollars. All right, there's organizations in those top five that, you know, spent 29, $28 million last year on postage stamps, all right, $18 million on TV ads, all right? The, the addiction rate of what I see of guys coming and applying to my program, a

• 1:41:57Speaker 01

  couple hundred a year, I can only look at those hard numbers, right? But 75% of those guys are on at least two. My maximum guy had come to Heroes and Horses, had, was on 13 medications. Last year, we had a guy come on 11 medications, come off all and lose 37 pounds in 41 days in the program, right? Nobody cares about, nobody looks at any of those kinds of things, the joblessness, the suicide, and then there's a conversation about living and being alive. We say, oh, this is a success story because he didn't kill himself. And I, and I've looked at guys and I told them, you're, you're, you're dead, you're already dead. You haven't pulled the trigger, but you're dead. You're not living

• 1:42:36Speaker 01

  any form of life. And, you know, if it wasn't, if I didn't happen to fall into, I guess you could say, or, or be directed, I guess, serendipitously, or, you know, um, I don't, I don't know. I don't know, because I was a...

• 1:42:58Speaker 01

  I was just, I was so wrapped up in anger, you know, and I felt alone in the world. Because it's not like you don't have anybody around you. You're just, you're just done, you know, and you realize like you're just, you're just a number. You are literally, if the tool breaks, they throw the tool away. You never hear these stories. I could tell you stories about guys that have been shot and busted. They're, you know, crippled and they're, they can't even pay their bills. They're living in a one-room shack and, you know, trying to get medical payments, like contractors. Like it's, um, and then tie that into their military career and it just becomes this caustic cocktail. And, uh, that's why I've dedicated my life to this because I think that there's something special,

• 1:43:43Speaker 01

  whether, no matter what you did in the military, that you went and signed up knowing that you could die in a time of war because you believed in something. And I think people think that means fighting for the government, but I think it means fighting for your country and, uh, fighting for what is good. And somewhere when that gets lost and gets twisted, I think a whole person loses their anchor point and they spiral out of control. And, yeah, I mean, I, yeah, so that's why today the program that I run is, it's so intensive and...

• 1:44:17Jocko Willink?

  So when you got out, when you, when you left that contracting job, did you have a plan?

• 1:44:24Speaker 01

  No, well, yeah, kind of, I guess. I, I left because I remember I was, I got home on Christmas Eve and I was like putting together all this like, my wife picks me up from the airport and I remember I'm driving, she's driving.

• 1:44:37Jocko Willink?

  Are you living on the east coast at this point?

• 1:44:38Speaker 01

  No, I'm in Montana.

• 1:44:39Jocko Willink?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:44:39Speaker 01

  And, uh, it's snowing out and she's driving and she just starts like hysterically crying. And I'm like, you know, what's your problem? And she's like, are you okay? And I'm like, yeah, I'm fine. And she's like, I just like, I can feel your energy coming off of you. You're like a furnace right now. And I was like, fine. Like, and she's like, okay, like, well, we gotta like, you know, put the Christmas stuff together. And I got extended, so I'd been on like a long trip. So Christmas Eve, I go back and I remember I'm like, it was the frozen.

• 1:45:10Jocko Willink?

  That's enough to drive anyone freaking over.

• 1:45:12Speaker 01

  Listen, you want to talk about freaking snapping? Like I had the frozen car, like I'm trying to put the wheels on like, and I remember I was shaking so bad and I was like, I was just so in my head. Because you know, after that, we, you know, some things happened, we got chased, the suicide bomb went off and all these like things that happened. And I remember like,

• 1:45:31Speaker 01

  I just, I couldn't down regulate. I, I mean, I just couldn't down regulate, even just driving in the car. I felt like I was there, like everything was happening around me.

• 1:45:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. When you said that 30 days, coming home for 30 days, I can remember coming home off of deployments and it takes like a 30 day period to where you're like, okay, like my first deployment to Iraq, we, there was this big paranoia about getting, you know, IED when you went under bridges or ambushed when you went under bridges. And so, you know, we'd always kind of like take a little breath before you'd go under a bridge in a, in a, in a convoy. And, and I remember when I came home, you know, I'm like, I'm like, I'm, I'm not trying to say I was freaking out or anything, but when you, when, when I would be driving my car from work back home and go under a bridge, it'd be like, you'd have that just like, oh yeah, I remember that, just this little something in your mind, right?

• 1:46:24Jocko Willink?

  And it would take like a month for me to go away. So I'm thinking you're coming home for 30 days. That's not enough time to get any sort of like, to, to, to, to, what'd you say downgrade or whatever?

• 1:46:36Speaker 01

  Down regulate.

• 1:46:37Jocko Willink?

  Down reg, there's no time. 30 days is not enough to down regulate. Period. And when you're, all you're doing is coming home and you know, you're going on another deployment in that 30 days, you might as well, I, I kind of feel like you might as well not even come home because it's just what is, what good is it going to do? That's freaking crazy.

• 1:46:54Speaker 01

  It is. And it's, it's, it's crazy that the amount of work that's carried out by contractors around the world. I don't think people understand the scope of it, especially when it pertains to like, you know, the DIA, the NSA, the CIA, like, you know, these institutions that use contractors.

• 1:47:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's it's a it's a tough transition for sure. And I happen to, you know, for me, like, going back to work, you know, I started working on a ranch. I met some guys. And so I would kind of like immerse myself in that. And

• 1:47:25Jocko Willink?

  So Christmas Eve.

• 1:47:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:27Jocko Willink?

  I kind of cut off your story. So this is this is you just had this sort of what you called the biggest incident in your career.

• 1:47:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, I would say one of the top three for sure, like

• 1:47:37Jocko Willink?

  And now you get into the freaking aluminum tube and you wake up and you're in freaking Montana again.

• 1:47:44Speaker 01

  I'm in Montana and I'm like, and I remember I was trying to put,

• 1:47:49Speaker 01

  I couldn't focus to like even put the wheels on the thing. I was just so, and I remember like, I I stayed up all night, you know, I got in late, I got in basically Christmas morning and like the kids got out. And of course, you know, they're like, you know, American consumerism like, ah, my Tyler, not even looking at the thing, ripping stuff, stuff, stuff everywhere. And I'm like, you know, the waste, like, a dolphin's gonna eat that. So we're like, you know, and I remember I'm like trying to cook breakfast that morning. I've been up now for, I don't know, probably 48 hours or something. And, and I remember cooking breakfast, I'm looking out the window and I was like, my wife came over and kind of put her arm on me. And I'm trying to like, be happy and

• 1:48:29Speaker 01

  everything. But I just looked at her, I was like, I'm just like, I need some more time home. You know, so I email and say, hey, like, I need some time home. And obviously, like, this huge thing happened, and it was huge. And like, you know, the highest levels were involved and it came overseas, like, so like, it's not like, you know, they didn't know or anything. And, and they're like, well, we like, need you to go back, like, you know, take this team, blah, blah, blah. And, and if you don't come back, we're going to dock your pay.

• 1:49:03Speaker 01

  And that's when I was like, back to like my Master Chief story, you know, I was like, like, and, and I was just, I was just done. I really wasn't sure. I had, I had started, you know, I'd started my foundation and, and so then I did a film called 180

• 1:49:22Jocko Willink?

  You had already started your foundation?

• 1:49:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, I had, I had filed the paperwork and done, I hadn't run anything or done anything yet.

• 1:49:27Jocko Willink?

  But did you have a vision for what the foundation actually was?

• 1:49:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that's evolved significantly to what it is today.

• 1:49:36Speaker 01

  But yeah, so then I ended up in 2015, running my first season, which was like, come out for two weeks, go home, come out for two weeks, go home. And so I did a film with Yeti called 180 Out. And I had met a guy, strangely enough, my wife had this like mommy's workout thing. I watched a video, he's a big hunter, Mark Seacap, and he was like Sicka's main guy, Yeti's main guy, big archer. He wrote a, he made a video called Searching for West. And it's about him being this prolific archer and how his son's born and he's kind of like, thinking about why he, he should be there with him. And, you know, so I watched this video overseas with a bunch of guys and he's, they're like, oh, this guy lives in Bozeman.

• 1:50:20Speaker 01

  So I send the video to my wife. She launches this like mommy's workout thing and his wife comes. And strangely enough, like, so I was like, this is the guy from the video. This is the hunting guy. And so we ended up like meeting and he goes, hey, I want to do a video on you. A Yeti video. And he was making all the Yeti videos at the time, like, a bunch of them. And so initially it was about me like being an archery elk hunter or whatever. And, and then he got to know me and he's like, hey, I want to like do it on your standing up this foundation on your first season. And that first season was I don't know how that year didn't kill me, honestly. I mean, it was one of the, it was probably the hardest year I've had in my entire life.

• 1:51:05Speaker 01

  I got to, you know, I bought my house, basically broke, no paycheck. I started trimming trees for a guy. I'm like, working on the side, like, you know, my relationship was like touch and go. I was, you know, started shoeing horses. I'm trying to bring these vets out. I'm self-funding everything. I am basically down to, you know, a few thousand dollars in the bank account.

• 1:51:28Speaker 01

  And I end up meeting a gentleman that, over, over a beer, totally randomly for a friend of mine, that gave me a $25,000 check. And before he gives me the check, and I was $24,500 in debt with the nonprofit. And I never met this guy before. I'm on my way to Wyoming to shoot for National Geographic. And I got in a huge fight. I'm charging up my credit cards. Nonprofit, you're supposed to raise money. The people donate, then you use that money to do good. I didn't really know anything about that. So I started a nonprofit and started putting my own money into the nonprofit and going broke. I missed that page. So I'll never forget it. This guy comes, I got horses on a trailer. I'm heading into Wyoming to shoot for National Geographic, packing some guys.

• 1:52:10Speaker 01

  Buddy calls me up, "Oh, stop and get a beer with this guy." I'm like, "I can't. I'm just, I'm like, I'm getting a lot of problems right now." And I couldn't pay for the vets to come back. So I had all these vets supposed to come back. And the last words I have of my wife was like, "I'm doing this and I'm charging up the cards and I'm going to finish what I started. I don't care what it costs. I don't care if we sink the whole family. I'm doing this. I'm finishing this." So on my way to Wyoming, my buddy's like, "Hey dude, it's Maureen. He's like, "Let's get a beer with this guy." And I, and I refused, refused. He keeps persistently calling me. So finally I stop, I grab one beer with the guy. I sit there, I kind of talk for like, I don't know, 45 minutes. I was like, "I got a gig going." He's like, "Can I talk to you outside?" So I go outside and he looks at me, he goes, he wanted to pet the, one of the horses. And he's allergic, so he puts a glove on. He's out there petting it, both the guy.

• 1:52:55Speaker 01

  He looks at me, he goes, "You're the worst nonprofit guy I've ever met in my life. And I've been working with charities for 40 years." And I was like, of course, my ego's like, "Fuck you!" Like, "How dare you!" But he was right. I was. I didn't know what I was. I didn't know anything. And he hands me a check. And he goes, "I want you to call me. I like what you're trying to do." So he gives me, he gives me a check. I drive down the road, I look at it, it's for 25 grand. And that's when I knew I was doing the right thing. And so, you know, I think like initially, looking back, I think really I was like trying to find a way to help myself, you know?

• 1:53:33Speaker 01

  And because I felt so lost, you know, I just, I felt lost. I had no purpose. I had no mission. You know, and working with horses and shoeing horses and just that world just took me out of where the focus was all on myself. And my focus became on managing these animals and learning about them and learning, and learning about myself through the animal. I didn't really know that then because my, the guys that I was with were force, fear, and repetition. You know, they were old school cowboys, putting me in a horse house, getting bucked off, kicked and all those things, and whiskey drinking. And that was perfect for me at the time.

• 1:54:16Speaker 01

  But, you know, through that relationship over the years, horses became a mirror reflection to who I was, you know, because they're a prey animal. And they're designed to stay away from things with eyes in front of their head. You know, they're instinctually highly intelligent, cerebrally very stupid. A horse is a dumb animal. And, but instinctually, they're highly evolved. And so, you know, I brought these guys out. I finish out the season with them. I start the next season. I start getting some fundraising behind me. I have the first class. A guy leaves the two weeks, goes home, ODs and dies, Army officer. And dies in his house, ODs. He was a lieutenant.

• 1:55:00Speaker 01

  And so then I extended the program to realize, I still have this letter I wrote to class. And so I extended and today the program's now 41 days long. I'll kind of skip ahead to that. But what I realized is that it's actually struggle that gives everything in life value. And so everything designed for veterans is designed to take the struggle away. Like people that wanted to help me wanted to take the struggle away. When it was the re-engaging in the struggle that helped me re-establish a foundation in who I am as a person or who I was. And I really just became an identity. I had lost the baseline to that connection with myself. And you know, so many times a job is what you do, but a purpose is how you live your life.

• 1:55:45Speaker 01

  And so when that job went away, I didn't have that purpose because I'd never really learned that, you know, that deeper connection to something that is, you know, I think that that's what makes us human. I think that we live inside of our minds and we live a series of ideas and we, we level up through all these things and we get some stuff and we get some things and we get to some places, we achieve some heights. But at the end of the day, when it's all said and done, the real question is like, what is it all for? What is meaning in life? And I think when those identities fade and people stop waving the flag and nobody really

• 1:56:26Speaker 01

  cares that you're in the air force for 20 years and it's, you know, and nobody cares that you were overseas, like your kind of life kind of goes on, everything spirals out of control and you're, the problem is always you. And I think that, um, you know, now today, looking at what happens over 41 days, it's really one long continual conversation with yourself. Who am I as a person? Because. You know, the average person I was reading yesterday spends between 15 and 23 years in front of the TV. Okay. God. All right. That's disgusting. Like, I started, like, I started, I was verifying it this morning because I was like, that is the craziest thing ever.

• 1:57:07Speaker 01

  Because the average person lives, well, let's say 80, 80 years, that's 30,000 days, right? So if you spend between 15 on the low end or 23 years watching television, right? Then you're not working for 24 hours, right? You have eight hours of sleep every day. And then, you know, ages one to five, what are you doing? You're eating shit off the floor, you're pooping your pants, you don't know anything, you can't even talk, right? You're just like wandering around, people are stuffing you in seats and putting weird clothes on you, right? And then they do the same thing to you when you're old, right? So you gotta knock off a few years at the end where they're putting weird things in you and putting diapers on you and you kind of revert back, right? So how much time do you really have?

• 1:57:47Speaker 01

  Well, I was just crunching some rough math, so between 37 and 38 years roughly, because you spend, you know, what is it, 419 hours on the toilet, you know, you spend, you know, a year and a half showering, you know, there's all these other things that you look at. I mean, the question is like, what is this all about? You know? And, and what I realize is that success and failures are one in the same. You can have a success and that success can be the worst thing that ever happened to you. And you can have a failure and that can be the worst thing that ever happened to you because the byproducts are the same, they inhibit growth.

• 1:58:29Speaker 01

  And they, they stop evolution because you have an experience, then you perpetuate that identity associated with that experience, and then you live and create your future. So, human beings are constantly the victim of their own choices. And everything in society is saying, no, it's not your choices, it's everything else around you. And so, you know, over 41 days. I always say like, I don't have any ideas for you. I'm not advertising. Come to me and I'm gonna tell you what to do. I say, come here and I'll put you in a place where you're gonna learn what that is. And I'm not gonna judge you for whatever the outcome is, because that's

• 1:59:09Speaker 01

  your life to live. That's your 37 years that you have. Get off the TV. But I, the state of the American veteran is absolutely in dismal condition. I didn't know a lot about nonprofits when I started. Matter of fact, I didn't know anything. And along the way, I've met every crook liar in charlatan from here to the Rio Grande. Because it's a, it's a, people make billions off the backs of other people's pain. I'm sorry, if you served 10 years in the military, the answer for you is not to float in a tube and eat donuts, like, or, you know, to go to Texas and, you know, shoot a deer that's tied to a tree in front of a

• 1:59:51Speaker 01

  corn feeder. Like, nothing's more healing than that, right? Like, you know, I'm sorry, like, and people hate me for saying that. My thing is, like, you're, you're, fuck you. Like, I don't care. Like, because I see it. I see the state of these guys that show up, and they are completely fractured. And they've been to 15, 16 institutions. They're on this, they've been injected with that. They're on these pills, they're on these psych meds, they're on this medication, they're on this. And I look, and I'm like, the pandemic of suicide in the veterans community can't be understated. And the numbers, like, I don't even know if you would ever even be able to find the real numbers, really. But it's

• 2:00:35Speaker 01

  substantial, you know? And, and this whole catch thing, you know, 22 a day, like, like, if you're doing 22 pushups a day for veterans suicide, you're an asshole. Like, 22 push, my kid can do 100. He's eight, okay? Like, at least have some dignity. And then it's like, you know, you're on there filming, like, hey, guys, vets are killing themselves.

• 2:00:57Speaker 01

  Shout out to my sponsor for my new t-shirt. I'm gonna be doing 22 pushups today. New Lycra, by the way. Go online 10%, use my code BOB. And, I mean, this is the world that we're living in. And I'm like, we have to get back into the business of developing human beings. You know, we have a,

• 2:01:17Speaker 01

  we have a desire, you know, human beings are now in such a state of like, hyper-complexity where everything is integrated, everything is connected, that there is no individuality, there is no original thought. You become an amalgamation of everything that you've heard and been exposed to, but you really do nothing, right? Like, the jury's out. Like, wake up, do hard work, learn about yourself, turn the shit off, like, meditate, like, you know, eat a carrot every now and then, like, and, and life is gonna be pretty good for you. Doesn't mean it's gonna be easy, but you'll have the built-in tools. And you'll begin to learn about your higher self. And, you know, people can say, like, you know, oh, this is like woo-woo magic or whatever, but like,

• 2:02:02Speaker 01

  there is, like, I don't care, you're in war, you're like, you got the spidey senses. What is that? What is that? What is that thing? What is meaning, right? What is this, what is this thing, meaning that we all have? We're all gonna answer that question at some point in our life, whether you get hit by a, you know, a skateboarder, like, and whack your head in the curb, or you die in combat, or you, you know, eat yourself to death. Like, you're all going to face those, those things. And to me, the hero's journey is the journey of learning about yourself and using those tools to overcome the external circumstances that you face. And so, like, over the 41 days, like, we have, you know, that every guy walks at least 80 miles in the program just to meals.

• 2:02:45Speaker 01

  They'll spend 22 days in the wilderness. They won't eat a piece of sugar, they won't eat dairy, they won't eat, they won't have juice. They will only eat meat, vegetables, salt, water, and black coffee. And they will learn to meditate. They'll get into an ice tank every single day. They will start their day with mindfulness. They'll read books, they'll go through leadership courses, they'll learn to shoe horses, ride horses, they'll learn to see themselves in working with wild mustangs. They'll be put in very dangerous situations. All of these are just tools to shift focus from a person that is always looking out for answers to a person that is looking in for answers. And then using those answers to then change the material world around them with their choices

• 2:03:30Speaker 01

  that are authentically theirs. And that's called purpose. And when you start to do that, there's always a dragon that steps out right in front of you. Right? The dragon steps out in front of you. And, and then you find out how much you really want it. Because everything is designed today to keep you from knowing what you are. Like, social media doesn't exist if you're not there. The internet doesn't exist if you're not there. You are the energy source that feeds your own demise. So, so you give your energy to feed your own destruction. And then you complain about the very thing that you're feeding. When it's always you. You're the one.

• 2:04:14Speaker 01

  I always tell people like, "Oh God, like the guys, like the Twitters, and this, and that", you know, whatever. It's like, it's like, "Oh God", but it's not there if you're not there. You feed it. You are feeding, and you are clothing, and you are arming your own captors. You are. And everything is designed to keep you

• 2:04:34Speaker 01

  sound asleep. Consume, consume, consumes, consume, yum, yum, yum, yum, yum, yum, yum, yum, yum, food, yum, yum, yum, yum, yum. Let's get something, you know? Everything is designed to fulfill these physical desires that then override you from searching from the real energy source that the people that are aware, know of. They know, "I need you to feed what I'm building." You will serve, serve, serve as the cog in a gigantic organism. And you will give your energy, 40, 50 years of it, and you get your little plaque, "Thanks for Bob, employee of the month", and, and, and then what? You go down to South Florida and you sit there.

• 2:05:19Speaker 01

  And you just wait.

• 2:05:24Speaker 01

  Your car, you're sitting in the same traffic. Yeah, maybe it's a Ferrari. So what? You're in the same traffic. Eh, yeah, maybe you get a little bit of better beef. You know, maybe this one was massaged by 50 Japanese ladies or whatever, right? It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter because then the fear starts to build.

• 2:05:45Speaker 01

  And then the clock just starts going and next thing you know, what are they doing? They're like, ah, it's too late. It's too late. You've missed the meaning of life. You've missed it. And veterans are out there like perpetuating these identities. That's why I don't do like, you know, these guys, they show up and it's just like, dude, you got out in 2005. It's 2022, okay? They're putting chips in people's brains, man. No one cares about the logistics department in Bagram in 05 that, you know, may or may not have been mortared, right? Like, like, think about the numbers.

• 2:06:27Speaker 01

  You would think that every veteran is burned and every veteran has been amputated. 1,500 amputees. .00026% of veterans have been amputated. There's billions of dollars of organizations to help the amputated. Billions. We got this guy a wheelchair ramp. A ramp? How about like, a ramp? Made of like, wood? Like, that's like 800 bucks, right? But, but, but this is what's happening. We have to get back to where we start developing ourselves, push ourselves away, reunite as a community, and start getting serious about human development and begin giving our energy to things that matter,

• 2:07:12Speaker 01

  like our food, our water, our shelter, like the community around us, doing things that are good, turning off that stuff. Don't spend 23 years of your life in front of the TV. Like, we have to change. We have to change our minds. We have to change our bodies. We have to, we have to become the governors of our own perceptions. We're no longer the governors of our own perceptions. Perceptions, they create actions and behaviors. And they're being governed by something else. And, you know, my message is that I don't have the answers, but you do. And the jury's out on greatness.

• 2:07:49Speaker 01

  It's, it's, it's scattered on walls and caves and books and tablets throughout all of mankind. The jury is out. Know thyself. Know thyself. There's a reason why everybody wants your energy because you're building an empire. And that empire, it just turns out that you're its unwinning prisoner. And you can walk away and you can let yourself out and you can change. You can do it. We can do it. And I'm not gonna sit back and be a participant and watch a generation like, I'm nobody special. I'm nobody of notoriety. I'm not like,

• 2:08:30Speaker 01

  alls I do is I believe in the dignity of the human experience. And there's people that have done some really great things throughout all of the history of mankind. And they did it by knowing themselves. And then whatever, you know, we love to watch the Bravehearts and we love to watch the Patriots and we love, be that person. Be that person. It's not about dying when be, being burned at the stake when you're 23. Well, do you spend 23 years of your life watching TV? That's a great 23 years that a guy like William Wallace had. He was able to do that because he understood it something. Giordano Van Bruno, who was burned at the stake by the Catholic Church in the 1500s for writing the Popovu. He, uh, he looked at them when they were gonna burn him at the stake and they cut his tongue out

• 2:09:14Speaker 01

  and they nailed it to, over his head and they were getting ready to burn him. And they tried to get him to recount, you know, that the, you know, earth revolves around the sun and all these things. You know, that was heresy. And he looked at him and he understood the deeper meaning of life. And he said, it's not, his last words were, it's not I who is afraid, it's you. And then they lit the fire. What a badass way to go, you know? So I've just dedicated my life to, you know, right now, the program is a 41 day long program. You know, at the end of it, we have a Lakota sweat lodge. I've had the opportunity to get to know some of those medicine men. And, you know, that's an ancient tradition that is 16,000 years old that dates back.

• 2:09:59Speaker 01

  And, and you know, they say you go into the womb of the earth. And when you come out, you know, you're reborn. And it's, it's really like, uh, it's like an insane sauna that has chanting and all those other kinds of things. And you, you're in there in the heat and you kind of go, the heat brings you from the kind of physical into the spiritual. And so every guy will pass through those windows. And they'll do a four window ceremony upon graduation. And then, and then people are like, and then what? And I'm like, and then go and live your life because now you know, and if you want to go participate in those same things, you can do it, but not ignorantly. Because you know, you know that, wow, I'm creating my own experience.

• 2:10:43Speaker 01

  Like the, the whole idea of free will, I believe, is what Project Earth is all about. It's about free will. Well, the experiment in free will is coming to an end. Because everybody's been programmed. Everyone, it's coming to an end. And I'm not going to let it come to an end in my life. I'm going to take power of that because free will is powerful. I could get up from this table right now, sell my rental car illegally to a chop shop and go climb Mount Everest. I could do anything, anything. But people do nothing. They do nothing. They don't understand the power that they have. Instead, they give that unknown power away. And then they blame life and they're, they become the victims of this experience.

• 2:11:28Speaker 01

  We can change. We can change right now. People can change. And in turn, the goodness can be restored. The goodness of this nation, you know, the goodness that may just sign up and say, you know what, I want to fight against evil. I want to stand again. If I lose my limb, if I get burned, if I get, I don't care. I want to do it. And in return to those values that represent not only us as Americans, but us as human beings. And, you know, that's, that's, that's my message, you know, to the world is like that book right there, about face. Wake up and turn around and do 180 degrees from what you're doing and your life will change.

• 2:12:12Speaker 01

  You will change, you will change and it will change for the better. Take that journey, reject the easiness of life that is being sold because it is a poison and is a cancer. And, uh, and you will, maybe you'll be rich, maybe you won't be, it does, it won't matter because you will be wealthy in heart and wealthy in mind and wealthy in spirit. You know, and that's, uh, that's kind of what I want to share with the world.

• 2:12:38Jocko Willink?

  Well, so what's this look like? First question. Do horse, do you need, need to know how to ride a horse to show up?

• 2:12:46Speaker 01

  No, no, matter of fact, like the majority of guys that come have never even seen them, you know, never even ridden a horse before in their life.

• 2:12:53Jocko Willink?

  Had you ridden horses before? Um, when did you start riding horses?

• 2:12:56Speaker 01

  I had one horse growing up. I never, I rode it like a couple of times and that was about my experience. That was it.

• 2:13:03Jocko Willink?

  And then you're, I'm going for this?

• 2:13:05Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah.

• 2:13:06Jocko Willink?

  What was the introduction to horses?

• 2:13:07Speaker 01

  So I ended up meeting some, uh, I was, uh, right before I got out, so this is like 2013. I ended up meeting some cowboys, uh, with horses in the backcountry. And I got to know them and they invited me to the, I met them on a hiking, I was just hiking with my daughter and I met them. And, uh, that's how I started shooting horses. So I first started shooting horses with a guy, um, on a tipping table. So they put them in a huge machine, tip them on their sides. And then I just, my job was around like the wheel grinder and I was just like helping out. And eventually I started learning how to shoot horses and start colts and these guys, like I kind of thought initially they were all about like helping vets and all this kind of stuff. They were like the most like crooked human beings I've ever met in my life, like real legit crooks.

• 2:13:50Speaker 01

  Uh, you know, cause the equine business is tough, like in the cowboy world and all that kind of stuff. So, um, but I did learn a tremendous amount. Those guys were mentors to me, you know, all that shit aside and then, um, And then I just

• 2:14:03Jocko Willink?

  And then you start riding horses all the time?

• 2:14:05Speaker 01

  Oh, every single day, day in and day out. Yeah, I mean, I, uh, like I said, I just crossed my 18th wilderness on a horse, you know? So, uh, I, we have 70 horses today. Um, and I've been breaking and training wild Mustangs for five years now, like straight from the wild. And I always tell people, I'm like, if you like, think you're like a legit tough guy, like you're like, I will put you in there with a completely wild horse and you're gonna find out real quick how tough you are. Because the horse is immediately gonna sense if you're afraid. And like I had this, I had this horse two years ago. I never did quite get him. I'll show you a cool picture of him going straight up in the air and I'm on the end of this rope. He's the only horse I ever had actually like just straight up attack me. Um, and, uh, like attack me.

• 2:14:50Speaker 01

  And what would happen was is that he would like, you know, you get in there and he'd start moving around. And if you even take one step back, they're one step forward. Okay. Cause in the horse world, you know, there is, uh, there is a hierarchy, you know? So there's the alpha male and the alpha female and they lead the herd. And then everybody else falls subsequently underneath. So the alpha male runs, roams around, looks for predators, you know, keeps everybody at bay. And the mare is leading them to food and water in the wild. They eat first, they do everything first, and then it slowly goes down. So you're falling somewhere in that horse hierarchy. And, you know, to think about horses, a horse is the highest VO2 max of any land animal on earth. All right. They have binocular and monocular vision. They can see out of both eyes completely independently. The right brain and left brain doesn't know.

• 2:15:34Speaker 01

  So they're looking at something on the left, the right brain has no idea. Just like my ex-girlfriend. And so, but, uh, you know, they, uh, you know, when they put their heads down, they can see almost 360 degrees while they're eating. And, but they can't see four feet in front of their nose and they can't see four feet behind them. And a horse is designed really to do one thing, run. So they have, you know, 50 liters of fluid in their stomach at any given time, which sloshes around this fleet free-floating intestinal system. So as the horse moves, that fluid sloshes and slaps in the diaphragm, which causes them to go to breathe in. So it's boom, boom. So they're, they're breathing in super hard and, uh, they can't breathe through their mouth. So they breathe through their nose and their noses are flared. So it's like an air ram system.

• 2:16:19Speaker 01

  And so a horse is designed like, you know, I, I, I can be a mile away. I was out in Wyoming. There's wild horses on the horseback. And they can feel the vibrations in the ground and you just can see them on your binos. They just They sense you, right? So they're highly evolved at getting away from predators. So now here comes human beings like, hello, I want to ride you. And, and so you have to, one, become their leader first. So you have to have an ability of self-leadership, right? Because they can sense that. And then, and then, you know, two, you have to gain their trust. And you gain that trust with that animal by, you know, pressure and release. So applying pressure to that animal, releasing that pressure and essentially talking to them, you know? So if you watch me working wild horses, I can, it doesn't really look like I'm doing much,

• 2:17:03Speaker 01

  but I'm controlling the direction of that animal. Because in horse language, whoever moves their feet first loses. So what happens is, especially with the students, when they're first working with wild horses, as the program progresses, it's a couple of days they get with wild animals. You'll see the guy, I don't know, 20-year Green Beret or whatever, horse takes a step towards him. You'll see him take a step back. Well, that horse is like, okay, now you're my bitch. And in the next time around, he's on you, right? And, you know, horses are like people. Some are, you know, docile, some are nice, some are psychotic, whatever, in terms of the wild ones. And so, yeah, I had this horse and he's, you know, I get him like finally where I can get him saddled and everything like that. It takes me like three or four days and I can get hands on him.

• 2:17:48Speaker 01

  I'm starting to like pick his feet up. And one day he just came in and he just never was a trusting horse. And I kind of pushed him more than I think he was capable of at the time. And I just kind of like, he was just there. So I'm gonna let him like sulk or just let him stand there and rest. And it was a pretty rough morning. And, and I turn around and he just like rears back and tries to strike me in the back of my head. You know, I kind of like fall forward and then he bites me on my back, you know? And kind of throws me to the side or whatever, you know? Of course, I'm like, can't crawl up the round pen fast enough, you know? Like, I mean, that's a large beast. And, you know, so-

• 2:18:25Jocko Willink?

  This was three or four days into you working with him?

• 2:18:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. So we, we adopt them completely wild. Uh, I think 28 of our 70 horses are wild horses. Um, I've been, uh, five years ago, I did a film called The 500 Mile Project where I rode 60- Wild Mustangs from New Mexico to Arizona, 760 miles after training them for three months with a couple guys. And it was the story of the unpurposed horse and the unpurposed human being. And so here you have the Wild Horse, which is facing the same thing as the American Veteran, which is huge government monies, right? So there's, you know, 50, 100,000, whatever it is today, I haven't looked, Wild Mustangs in captivity. So in 1979, they had the Wild Horse in Burrow Act, so they started rounding them up off the ranch lands and putting them into long-term holding facilities.

• 2:19:12Speaker 01

  And today, it's a 60 or 70 million dollar program. And the problem's only worsening. They've tried shooting them out of helicopters with birth control and all these kinds of things. And so the whole thing's a disaster, and adoption doesn't really work either. It works on a small scale, but there's too many being produced to adopt them out. So we go there and we adopt them. We sort them out, we figure them out. And if you watch the film and the opening scenes of the films, it's very intense. I mean, these horses have never been around people, so they're terrified because they're designed to run away from us. And so, you know, through a series of shoots and sorting things, you know, we pick out what we want out of hundreds of them, and then we load them into trailers and we bring them back. And then we start training them, and those are the horses that then go into the program.

• 2:19:56Speaker 01

  So, you know, a horse is a mirror reflection to who you are, because a horse is designed as sensing your predatory instincts. So you may say, "I'm not scared," or maybe I am going to hurt you because I'm going to be very aggressive with you, and then the animal becomes very afraid of you. Now, you may not be portraying that on the outside, but on the inside, that's what the horse is looking at. You could look like you're totally calm, but your heart's going 140 beats a minute. And the horse feels that. So then he starts thinking, "What are you going to do to me?" And then they'll test you, because where are you going to be in the hierarchy? And if you watch them in the pens, you know, there will be this one horse that'll come along. Everybody's eating and soon as he starts walking over, everybody goes away.

• 2:20:41Speaker 01

  And there'd be one horse that's like, eh, maybe I'm not gonna go. And then this horse like double barrel kicks him, he's like, eh, I'm gonna go. So you're, they don't, you're somewhere on that scale. And so horses, a lot of the program happens in the 41 days with these horses without talking. Because what happens is the horse reflects back what you really are. And so people blame the animal, this horse is an idiot. Well, you're an idiot. Now, we don't say that, sometimes I do. But, but these guys begin to realize, and when they change their internal compass, their relationship with their horse instantaneously change. It is the most beautiful thing.

• 2:21:23Speaker 01

  You see this union where all of a sudden, okay, you're my leader. You're the alpha male or alpha mare, and I'll kill myself for you. And when a horse believes in you, that might like, some of my like rope horses and my really good horses, like the one you kind of like that video I sent you or whatever, you know, they'll kill themselves. They will run for you until they die. They will run through a fence, they will, they will do anything for you because they trust their leader.

• 2:21:50Speaker 01

  But a lot of guys initially are just passengers on an animal that hates them because they hate themselves. And they're not able to have that internal compass be calibrated. So throughout that relationship and throughout them learning about horses, they're really learning about themselves through the medium of the horse. And so from day one, you know, guys apply to the program. It's a really comprehensive application process.

• 2:22:13Jocko Willink?

  And it's 100% veterans?

• 2:22:14Speaker 01

  All veterans, all veterans. Yep, and it's a, it's a, it's a tricky application. You know, most nonprofits, you kind of like fill out the thing and it's like, you know, do you like pretzels or peanuts? It's like, you're welcome, like, thanks for, like, this is like gets in your head. And then, you know, through that process, you get selected, you know, kind of rate guys one to five. You know, we can only take so many guys, you know, we get a couple hundred applications a year. And then, and then we send them two books, communicate with them every week, help them lose weight, change their diet. We send them articles on testosterone suppression through SSRIs and medications and all these kind of unhealthy lifestyle. We help them kind of level up as they're preparing. And then when they arrive,

• 2:22:53Speaker 01

  It's a, you know, kind of indoctrination, getting in the ice tanks. This is how this works. This is our morning routine. So you wake up, it's a mile walk in the dark off the ranch. They walk down to the main area. They'll, you know, mobility work with Jim Jones. So they designed our workout program. All based, you know, these guys are not trying to get jacked or anything, but they, some of them are like straight off the mission to the kitchen. So, you know, they, they, they like, I mean, we have guys that like haven't, I had a guy last year that said he hadn't walked up a flight of stairs in seven years. Right. So now like you're entering into like, you want, I mean, pain.

• 2:23:25Jocko Willink?

  When, when you're scoping out applicants, are you trying to create a, what do you call it? A class?

• 2:23:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I created a class, but I,

• 2:23:33Jocko Willink?

  Are you trying to create a class of like, do you look at the people and go, look, this guy's probably, he's going to need some help, but he's probably going to do well. This other person's like, this is a train wreck over here. Or are you just looking for train wrecks?

• 2:23:46Speaker 01

  I just take the worst of the worst guys.

• 2:23:47Jocko Willink?

  So you're looking for,

• 2:23:48Speaker 01

  And I put them all together and there's no science to that because to me it's like you, to get through this, you have to work as a team, but it's about the individual. You're on your own journey and you're going to need other people to help you along the way, but I don't care if they ever talk to those guys again. A lot of them maintained some of the closest friendships ever. Matter of fact, on the way here, some guys,

• 2:24:10Speaker 01

  Canadian special operations sent me a guy and last year and he,

• 2:24:16Speaker 01

  changed his life. This guy was in a real bad way and they've maintained relationships with each other, but ultimately it's about the individual because they're on the hero's journey. And the hero's journey is that you have to walk through those flames. You have to go through those fires. You have to feel it. And so, you know, four 30 in the morning, they wake up, they walk a mile down to the main camp. Then they intentionally move their bodies. They get done with that. We do a meditation and then they do breath work, the Wim Hof breath holding, and then they get into an ice tank. And then that scales up till, you know, the end, they're sitting there for like 10 minutes.

• 2:24:54Speaker 01

  And that's pretty rough on guys that are like straight off like, and then, and then it's all about horses. And so then in the evening, we have what we call the, uh, the Maxim Lab, which is a leadership course based on Stoicism. So I don't tell them any ideas. I'll present a question. What does it mean? You know, choose to be harmed and you're harmed. Choose not to be harmed and you haven't been. What does that mean? And guys will go around and let them talk things out. And so throughout the program, they'll do that for 40 days. And then after, uh, after six days, they'll head into the back country for eight days. They are given a horse and a mule.

• 2:25:27Jocko Willink?

  So wait, six days, they've been there?

• 2:25:29Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:25:29Jocko Willink?

  They've been doing this routine?

• 2:25:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:25:30Jocko Willink?

  They've been learning about horses?

• 2:25:32Speaker 01

  Well, at this point, everybody can lope a horse on a dead run. Everybody can, you know, rein, control their horse and pack a mule and understands equine medicine trucks, trailers, all that kind of stuff. Uh, they get all that in six days. So it's very intensive.

• 2:25:47Jocko Willink?

  Those are some long days.

• 2:25:48Speaker 01

  Extremely long days. Um, matter of fact, like there was like a guy, the vet came out and he's like, um, like there's like guys sleeping like right next to the horse. I'm like, I know, I'm guys, come on, we're not in the military now, we're in stand up. And like, huh, but, but.

• 2:26:08Jocko Willink?

  So six days of, so the beginning of the program, they're there, they're getting all this good stuff that you're giving them.

• 2:26:13Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:26:14Jocko Willink?

  And they're only eating like meat, vegetables. What'd you say? Salt, water and coffee?

• 2:26:19Speaker 01

  That's it.

• 2:26:20Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:26:20Speaker 01

  There's no juice, there's no dairy, there's no honey, nothing. No.

• 2:26:24Jocko Willink?

  And, and then after six days of that, then it's, we're going in the wilderness?

• 2:26:28Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:26:28Jocko Willink?

  On horseback with a hor- you on your horse and your mule?

• 2:26:31Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 2:26:32Jocko Willink?

  As a team?

• 2:26:33Speaker 01

  As a team. So then those guys are, they're paired together, eight guys in the class are paired together and they gotta pack their own stuff. And then of course there's camp gear and all that stuff. We have duties all lined up for everybody. And that's a progressive trip. So there is no main camp. So every day they pack up and move. So, um, you know, all, all ultra light stuff, you know, most of the time I never use a 10. I'm just, I just sleep out unless it rains. Um, and they'll spend eight days, we'll do like around 80 or 90 miles on that trip. Then they'll come back and they'll start the next morning, what's called ranch week. So now they're going to learn how to rope. They're gonna, we have, you know, cows, they're gonna learn how to rope cows, how to do stock management. They're gonna learn more advanced riding. They're gonna learn, um, how to work on a ranch, how to be in a working ranch. And so that's called ranch week. It's all about ranch stuff. Uh, they'll drive tractors and they'll, they'll learn all these things in different groups

• 2:27:18Speaker 01

  throughout, you know, the whole facility. Then a lot of times we'll move, we'll go to another ranch, we'll help them gather and sort and ship cows and do stuff depending on what's going on. So that's ranch week. And then they start, you know, I guess you could say like phase two or something where there are another six days of training. So that training is. Blacksmithing, so they'll learn how to shoe a horse, they'll learn how to trim, they'll learn how to pair, they'll learn equine medicine, they'll work with wild mustangs, they'll do colt starting, they'll do reining, they'll do more advanced riding, they'll do roping, well they'll actually rope live cows and they'll learn how to, you know, how to manage them, how to operate on a working ranch in terms of all the agricultural components, and they'll learn more packing, and they'll learn how to put, you know, seven, eight, 10 animals at a time, pull them together, how to drive trucks, how to drive trailers, how to do chains, how to run chainsaws, how to run ax, all those kind of things.

• 2:28:03Speaker 01

  And then, and then they'll head into the backcountry for 11 days. Um, and then that's a tough-

• 2:28:07Jocko Willink?

  So how many days deep are we into this program right now?

• 2:28:09Speaker 01

  Uh, like-

• 2:28:12Jocko Willink?

  Is the 11 days-

• 2:28:13Speaker 01

  30 days or something like that.

• 2:28:14Jocko Willink?

  So is the 11 days sort of like the final days in the field?

• 2:28:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that's a tough trip, like, it's tough on me, it's tough, like, you know, 11 or 12 days in the wilderness like that progressively moving wears on you. Um, plus the animals have their own personalities and there's, you know, we run our stock loose, so we tie, you know, we hobble them and we turn them loose in the mountains. And so, you know, you gotta get up and you gotta gather in the morning, it's cold, it's snowing in August, you know, all the, all those kind of challenges. Last year we rode across the Wind Rivers, we did 120 miles across Wind River Range, and that was a brutal trip. It was incredible, but it's just tough, and then you're, you're shoeing horses, you're constantly where you're building camp, you're cooking everything, um, and it's all this, you know, like, whole food stuff, so guys are, it's a tough trip, and then they lead every day.

• 2:28:59Speaker 01

  So every day a different guy leads, he has the map, he has the routes, he makes all the decisions, I let them fail, I let them fall flat on their face, I let them make mistakes as long as nobody's gonna get hurt, and let them feel that, take, you know, ownership of all those kind of, you know, that leadership component and confidence and stuff, and so, um, and then they get back, and then when they get back from that trip, obviously everyone's decimated. So the average guy last year lost 20 pounds in the program. Um, our record that last year was, um, 37 pounds in 41 days.

• 2:29:29Speaker 01

  And yeah, and then, and then the med count was 11 psych meds guy, a guy walked away from. So, um, and then of course you have the guys on the onesies and the two z's and stuff like that. So they get back, then we wake them up at one o'clock in the morning. They usually get to bed around 10 that night after we, because you know, horses come first. So you got to doctor horses, clean horses. You got to do shoes. You got to do all those things. And then we'll wake them up, drive them to a mountain, make them climb Sacagawea Peak. So 10,000 foot peak in the dark. Because the metaphor is that nobody really cares what you just accomplished. Because behind every mountain is another mountain. And so we want them to feel that. And in that video, you can see the guy standing on that peak and then one guy's kind of rubbing the other guy in the back, you know? None of that's acting or anything, you know, that was a real emotional moment because

• 2:30:15Speaker 01

  they have lived a lifetime and it is real life. It's not like you're coming here and this is fake life and now you're going to leave and go back to real life. It's all real life. There is no fake life, right? It's all real, right? You put the virtual reality goggles on for nine hours. That's real life, right? Right? It's not, time doesn't stop. And so, um, they climb that mountain, they come down, pack up all their gear and then the next day is graduation day. So then they get into the sweat lodge. So they graduate, get into the sweat lodge. They go through that. We do some sound stuff with them. And then we have a year long take home course called Stay the Course where the guys have diet reading, you know, suggested reading, you know, fitness stuff, access to an app, um, and kind of like, you know, whole food eating and stuff like that.

• 2:31:00Speaker 01

  And, uh, and then the guys that want to, we plug them into an internship and then they go for four to six weeks to Alaska, Wyoming, Montana, Utah. They go to work in ranches. They go to cowboy outfits. They go to outfitters and all, you know, in the Yukon.

• 2:31:14Speaker 01

  And at this point in their life, when they're done, they've moved on and I had an interesting guy this year who came straight out of the Marine Corps, basically like weeks and came here. And he showed up and he was like, straight up like Ranger Rick, you know, he had the like the Oakleys on, you know, he had the, like you were like, he's straight, everything was the military. Everything was the military. When he left, he.

• 2:31:44Speaker 01

  Had left all his military clothes in a garbage bag, had cowboy hats, like the whole thing and had essentially, he's been worked on, he's Mexican. I got him, I happen to know a team guy buddy of mine, awesome guy and who works for a guy that has a ranch in Mexico. So he's been ranching in Mexico. Like his whole life is like completely different. I think what would happen if more people got out and immediately took on the next challenge in their life in the face of everything and where would they be today? And you know, that's my overarching goal is that like, you know, the sweat lodge is a super powerful thing and it can be terrifying.

• 2:32:24Jocko Willink?

  How hot is the sweat lodge?

• 2:32:25Speaker 01

  Fucking really hot.

• 2:32:27Jocko Willink?

  Like?

• 2:32:28Speaker 01

  Like, like really hot.

• 2:32:30Jocko Willink?

  Hotter than normal sauna hot?

• 2:32:32Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Yeah. So, so, so the rocks that they use, they go out and gather the rocks, their lava rocks, they haven't been heated up since the last, you know, younger Dryas impact, um, near our last major volcanic eruptions. And, you know, they put them in there and there's a lot drumming and songs. Um, they honor everything, the water and the earth and all those things. Um, and it's called the Anepi Wakon, which is one of like seven sacred ceremonies. So like the Sundance, which is hanging by your flesh, uh, from a pole, uh, for three days with no food or water. And then, um, to come off that, they hook buffalo skulls to you and you have to run into the desert until they rip out of

• 2:33:15Speaker 01

  your back. Um, these guys have all done this numerous times. Um, and then there's the

• 2:33:21Jocko Willink?

  When you say these guys, you're talking about the guys that you work with?

• 2:33:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, uh, they, um, they're some of the, they're some of the deepest, most special people that I've ever met. They are people that when you meet them, you're like, these people are good. They're like good people. Like there's a wholeness to them. That is attractive, like there is a balance to them. And so these guys, of course, are terrified. You know, everybody's like, you go into this little tiny lodge and you're in there. You can't see your hand in front of your face and it, the heat begins to increase in the songs. And they, you know, they welcome in, you know, all kinds of different things and animal spirits, all that kind of stuff. And when you come out.

• 2:34:02Jocko Willink?

  How long are you in there for?

• 2:34:03Speaker 01

  Um, well, the door open closes four times, but the whole thing's like a couple hours. And so then there's the, then there's the vision quest where you go in there for 24 hours with no food or water alone. That's, uh, and then there's the four days. We've had people on our ranch that gone up there for four days with no food or water by themselves in the mountain and they sit up there.

• 2:34:25Jocko Willink?

  In the sweat lodge?

• 2:34:26Speaker 01

  No, they, they, so that's one of the other rites. So the sweat lodge was banned in North America until 1976. It was illegal. Matter of fact, dancing was illegal. Native American dancing was illegal. So when Columbus arrived in the North American continent, there were 60 million natives here. At the start of World War One, there was 800,000 left. Um, in Buffalo, um, almost 60 million had been killed to, almost to extinction. So those rites were banned and it was illegal. Uh, matter of fact, it was illegal to carry those names unless you're like on a reservation. So there's a real tradition in history, you know, you're not taking psychedelics or anything like that. It's the heat and, uh, and it's the prayers and it does change you and it leaves an impact.

• 2:35:11Speaker 01

  And the first time I ever did it, I'll tell you right now, I like, I was ready to like, dig my way out of there. Like I did not like it because your mind's like, of course I start watching YouTube videos, you know, I'm like, oh no, like I get it. I was like, I'm gonna die, I can't get out of there, SDV, like no.

• 2:35:28Speaker 01

  Like I'm back in the black tube of death and, and I, uh, it's had such an impact. I mean, I've done eight of them now and, uh, You know, I've really like, uh, learned, I guess, like, in a way to honor myself, like, in a, in a way that is, uh, you know, my mind, my body, my spirit, by like what I eat and, and how, who I am in a relationship with, who I expose my, my life to, my energy to, like, what I put my intentions towards, like, all these things begin to kind of open up to you as the weeks of your life go on. And, uh, so it's something that we've integrated into the program that's been really effective and...

• 2:36:07Jocko Willink?

  Do you hallucinate? Is that what you're talking about?

• 2:36:10Speaker 01

  So like, I had a interesting, I, I guess you could say, not every ti- every time it's been different. Not one has been the same. Uh, some have been like incredible, other ones I feel like I just suffered, like, um, they're all different. Um, but I actually had a really interesting thing is that like I was in there and I saw a baby in the womb appear over the fire. And, but there's no fire.

• 2:36:34Jocko Willink?

  That's a hallucination, I think.

• 2:36:36Speaker 01

  Well, um...

• 2:36:38Jocko Willink?

  I think, I'm not sure though.

• 2:36:40Speaker 01

  Uh, it, there's no fire. The rocks are just red, but you can't really see them, then they're in this hole. Um, so there's no fire. It's hot rocks and they keep, and then people open the door and bring them in and put them in there. And then they have buffalo horns and they add the water. They keep dumping water on it with buffalo horns and they're singing and drums and chanting and all that stuff. And I saw like a baby in the womb, like in a fetus, and it appeared like over the fire. And I thought like, oh man, like, I'm like, the children like are dying or something. I don't know. I had this like thing. And then like a week later, my, my wife found out she was pregnant. Um, and then I, I instantaneously knew like, that's what I saw. I knew that I would have another child.

• 2:37:25Speaker 01

  Um, and I don't believe that children come from you. I think they pass through you. And, uh, you know, I think they're here for particular times. I think we can become derailed as human beings. Um, because we, you know, we get enticed, you know, by gross materialism and, and all these things that detract us from ourselves. And then somebody else has got to come along. Um, but yeah, so, so that experience has been powerful. So I added it to the program and people are always like, so what book did you read? Who did you do? Like, what did you do? I'm like, nothing, zero. It's just my own journey. It's the, all the things that I've done in my life that have helped me, um, really become... United with myself. I had become homesick from who I was as a person. Whether it was the wild and crazy religious stuff of the day, or you know, casting the demons,

• 2:38:08Speaker 01

  or whatever, or it was the military, or it was the agency, or it was all these other experiences. Um, you know, I had lost a footing, um, and a connection to myself. And now that that connection and that link has been restored, um, you know, I feel a balance that I've never felt before in my life. I, you know, I always tell people, I'm like, I don't have a retirement. I don't have any, um, 401k. I told my kids, I'm not paying for your college and I'm not buying you a car. Like, I'm not doing any of those things, but I will build an ecosystem here and teach you how to hunt and how to work the land and how to honor the animals and do all those things. And I will

• 2:38:49Speaker 01

  support you, but you're gonna have to do it yourself. And, you know, I'm not gonna, if I go tomorrow and they're like, you got cancer. I'm like, okay. I'm going out like Bob Marley. Like, I'm just gonna be like, alright, cool. You're not poking me and sticking me and doing anything. I'll just like, I'm not, uh, you know, so these experiences have given me a connection to a place where you find true peace. It doesn't mean the world around you is peaceful, but, and it doesn't mean you're weak and you're some kind of like, you know, snowflake or whatever. It's a, it's a balance that you, when you read about the great warriors, the, the, the Sun Zeus, and you read the Tao Jings, and you read about the Alexander the Greats, and you read about

• 2:39:31Speaker 01

  the peoples, that Ulysses and all these great people, there was a balance they had. They were artists, they were calligraphers. They would also kill you in 57 different ways, but not out of anger, not out of hate. And they were such a place of balance. And so, you know, my life now is about restoring that balance and then bringing that balance to other people, but I can't do it for you. And over the course of 41 days, you know, it is a, it is, is a conversation, how much do you, do you really want it? More often than not, we fall in love with getting in shape, you know? Um, we fall in love with being healthy, or we fall in love with, you know, having things or whatever. But we don't like the idea of what it takes to get there.

• 2:40:15Speaker 01

  You know, we, we don't like that. We, we don't like to feel uncomfortable and, and we have to become comfortable in the uncomfortable. And in turn, the things that are holding you back, they, they dissipate and go away. You know, so that's what the 41 days is about.

• 2:40:30Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you know what? You and I didn't talk before you showed up here today and, and so when like I was putting together your words, and I'm glad you've hit this a couple of times today and I'm, I, I wasn't a hundred percent sure, but certainly I was pretty confident. That idea that you are introducing situations to people that then they figure out like what the answers are to their questions. And then you said it multiple times today, like, hey, I don't have the answer for you and I can't tell you what to do here, what to do there. But I can take you to a place where you're going to start looking, you're going to start looking inside and you're going to start asking some questions and finding the answers.

• 2:41:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's exactly, and that, that's, everybody is trying to tell you how to be, you know, like you go to Tony Rob, you know, I don't want to diss Tony Robbins or anything because he's like probably will send assassins after me. But like.

• 2:41:24Jocko Willink?

  Good luck to those assassins. Bring it.

• 2:41:26Speaker 01

  Bring it. I dare you. Um, but yeah, like.

• 2:41:30Jocko Willink?

  They're going to track you up in the mountains on forceback themselves. Are you kidding me?

• 2:41:33Speaker 01

  Tony, you ain't coming there, dude. I dare you. Challenge you, Tony. That's all shallow. But you know, like people get so fired up and they get so amped up and they spend their life watching all this stuff and all these things and going to these things, but they don't actually do anything. If you did one 10th of the information that's contained in your brain, you wouldn't be in the situation you're in. We just become addicted to getting more information. You know, it's like, you know, 12 steps to purpose. Like, oh, man. Like you're going to get to the end and it's 12. It's like, woo. But then was the guy come out with nine steps. You're like, oh shit, I gotta get the other book. There's only nine? Like, you know, like now he's got, he's got, he's got nine more books to write.

• 2:42:14Speaker 01

  To me, the jury is out on what it means to really be a human, but we've lost that, we've lost that knowledge in pursuit of a construct that if I, if I get to the end of an idea that never was mine in the first place, I'll achieve some end state, right? I'll retire, or I'll achieve happiness, you know? Maybe it's a, it used to be in the eighties, you know, become a millionaire. Now, if you're a millionaire, who gives a shit? A million bucks, like, I mean, it's like, a million bucks is like, nothing nowadays, right? It's, what was it, like, they had that spending bill or whatever, and it's like, if you took one trillion dollars and you stacked it on end to end, go a third of the way to the moon. Okay, so 3.5 trillion goes to the moon and part of the way back, right?

• 2:42:59Speaker 01

  Like, so, but there, those things, like, that really matter in life are, are your food, your water, your shelter, and your relationships in your life. And if you're not in balance with those things, there's not, there's no things in life that are gonna help you find a place of completion, because eventually, you will face the man in the mirror. You will eventually, no matter what, no matter how many car, no matter what it is, like, I was using the example of like, Warren Buffett was like, laying in the desert and dying, like, about to die, and I came like, walking by with some water, and I was like, hey,

• 2:43:38Speaker 01

  Warren, give me all the money that you have, and I'll give you this water. He would take it. He would 100% take it. He wouldn't be like, fuck you! No, he'd be like, like, he'd want it, right? So it puts everything in relative perspective. And the most exciting adventure you can go on is the adventure with yourself. That is the most exciting adventure, and then your whole life opens up. We spent our time like, in shitty relationships with shitty people, afraid to change, in jobs that we hate, doing things that we don't wanna do, to get to places that we never wanted to go in the first place, and then we, and then they wouldn't.

• 2:44:20Speaker 01

  I was using this app, I'm like, okay, if you're depressed, okay? And everyone's like, you know, this for a while was like the mental health month and the men, all this mental health stuff was going on like crazy. Like, you know, everyone's like, hey, guys, mental health month, I'm, you know, skydiving for mental health, like, I'm, I'm, I'm conducting a boxing clinic for mental health and bringing awareness to it. And, and mental health, so then you're like, I'm depressed. And it's like, okay, I'm depressed. So then you go to the person that's in charge of the construct. And they say, what's the matter? You don't like your life? Well, I don't know, something's wrong. And they're like, hmm, well, we're gonna give you some things to get you back to work. Okay, we're gonna get you back in love with the very thing that you hate.

• 2:45:05Speaker 01

  It's never something is wrong with the thing, the construct itself. It's always something wrong with you. So then you're like, okay, so you take the stuff and you feel good for a while and you're feeling butterflies and everything's going around, but then it wears off in six months and you go back. And then the people tell you, okay, we gotta get you back in love, we gotta get you back to work, we gotta get you back undepressed. It's never about making massive lifestyle changes. Like, it's never about throwing the keys away, getting radically committed to yourself. It's always about changing you to get you back in love with the very thing that's causing the depression. Right? It's never about like radical change. It's always like, hmm, you have a chemical imbalance, so we'll give you some chemicals to get you back in balance.

• 2:45:50Speaker 01

  That'll work. By the way, 79 bucks a month. And, and so I think that like, we have to stop, like, we have to pump the brakes. Like, you know, we have to return back to the basics of what it means to be a human. And, and you know, my work with veterans is like, they're basically involved in a socialist system, right? They show up to an institution, it's a one size fits all, right? My greater goal is to create a board of the smart innovators, people, that, that, maybe there's a wellness arm, like a FedEx for veterans, right? And the post office doesn't work, where guys can say, you know what, red pill, blue pill,

• 2:46:31Speaker 01

  hmm, six weeks in therapy, meds, this, that, counseling for 10 years, all these other things, institutions, meetings, or whatever. Or, or maybe there's an eight week program I'm gonna go to, that'll be the suckiest thing I've ever done in my life. It'll be the true hero's journey, but when I come out the other side... I will have learned what I am and I will take that knowledge and I will begin to change the world around me with my own energy, my own impetus and my own identity from the inside out. We should give people that opportunity, but instead, you know, you show up to these, like you said, these false prophets that what are they there really, really to do?

• 2:47:13Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, what's scary about this is so much of the stuff that that people get like prescribed or advised, it actually, you know, in some of the talks that you talk about like peeling away layers to get to you. All those other things are actually added layers. They're adding layers on top of layers on top of layers that seem to smooth things over for a month or, you know, three months or whatever. And then all of a sudden that whatever's in there is starting to burn through and cause, you know, caustic material to rise to the surface. And so you're like, wait a second, I don't know if this is it. So you go back and they say, cool. Oh, oh, you got a little friction coming out, little caustic materials

• 2:47:58Jocko Willink?

  coming out. Cool. Let's put another layer on that and put another layer on that. And then we, you know, what are you going to put over yourself? You're going to put, you know, a car or a watch or a whatever expensive item that is another layer on top of this? It's not a solution.

• 2:48:15Speaker 01

  No, it's not. It's not. It's like this. So I just went through yesterday with my wife. We like threw out like a shit ton of stuff, right? Because the average American household has over 300,000 items in it.

• 2:48:32Speaker 01

  And I walked in there.

• 2:48:33Jocko Willink?

  You have a weird like a nerdy freaking, what is it? Statistical analytical mind.

• 2:48:38Speaker 01

  Well, listen, I actually just watched like a thing when I was traveling back from Florida about these like minimalist people or whatever. And they, you know, of course went in there and it's like, I told my wife, so we were down in Florida and what does she want to do? She's like obsessed with the goodwill. We don't buy anything new, nothing. And the kids, nothing new, zero. Everything we buy use or, you know, goodwill or whatever. But that in and of itself is an addiction, right? Because I'm like, she's like, oh, my gosh, I got this flannel. I'm like, you have like 90 flannel. She's like, I know, but this one was like three bucks. And I'm like, that's the problem, right? Like, you don't need that, right? So, so we went, we were like, okay. Once a week, we're going to target one portion of the house and get rid of stuff. So yesterday, we threw, we were taking to the Goodwill.

• 2:49:21Speaker 01

  We, I mean, I don't, we took out an entire like Ford Expedition full of things. Okay. And then like, we were done at like three o'clock in the afternoon and I looked around and I was like, it doesn't even look like we took anything out. I mean, like, how many potato peelers did we have? I was like, we had like nine potato peelers. Meanwhile, in Ethiopia, I'm like, I'm like, we had so many things. And what do things represent? They're measurements of time. They're measurements of time because you have to have time expended and energy to get that thing. Right? And so then I get this thing and then there's always another thing that you need to get.

• 2:50:03Speaker 01

  Well, the attachment for the mixer that goes on the thing that does the pasta. Like, no one doing that shit, but like, well, it's an extra 10, you know, we'll add it on there. And so we started going through and just getting rid of tons of stuff, you know? And, and the scariest thing is going to be like going to my closet, you know, like, and, and realizing that, wow, I've spent a lot of time in my life getting these things. And I'm like, never have time. I had a time and I have enough time. What am I doing with my time? I'm using my time to get things that I don't need. And so it's like Gandhi was asked the question, what confuses him most about modern man? He said, modern man spends all his time to get money, then spends all his money to get his time back. That's, I mean, that's pretty profound, right? Like, and.

• 2:50:49Jocko Willink?

  I remember running that calculus as like a young, well, not, not a young seal, but I'd been in the teams for a while. And there was people, I guess, as sort of maybe, remember the adventure racing things as that started coming out? But then, and then that became sort of extreme sport and like that whole thing. And then I thought to myself, man, uh, people like work hard to get money to pay for, to learn how to skydive or scuba dive. And I get to do that, that's just freaking cool. Like, I had the whole system beat, man. I kind of did a little bit, you know? It's like, hey, man, I'm doing, you're working your ass off to go do this. I'm literally getting paid to do that stuff in the first place.

• 2:51:26Jocko Willink?

  I, I, one, one thing that I, that I think was probably, it might be, it's a very important part of my life. Um, when I was in the teams, I, my first platoon and I like figured out to take a step back and look around. I call it detachment now because I don't know, that's the word that I figured out to call it. But like, you're in a situation, there's shit going on and no, no one's making a decision. And I like learned, hey, take a step back, look around and you'll be able to see infinitely more than if you keep staring down the, the sights of your weapon or whatever. And I learned that clearing oil rigs and training, and then I started applying it and everything I did. But, but then at some point I started

• 2:52:09Jocko Willink?

  applying it to like, you know, having a conversation with my platoon chief. And my platoon chief starts getting mad about something. And I'm thinking, instead of me being in the moment, like in my own head, getting mad back and escalating the situation. And now all of a sudden, I'm yelling, in a yelling match with my platoon chief. I never, I never did that. I'd be like, oh, hey, got it, chief. And I would take a step back. And, and I feel like that was helpful and is helpful to me. I guess all the time, because I'm always like taking a step back and saying, hey, what am I really doing? Like what's, what am I, what's driving this, me to do this particular thing? Or what's making me do this other thing? Or why am I not doing something else? And it seems like, uh, when you go into these

• 2:52:52Jocko Willink?

  extreme situations, it's another time where it happens. Like when you're freaking dog ass tired, or you're freezing cold. And you know, it's like I was telling that story about my, my, uh, SDV buddy that was just like, I don't want to be doing this anymore. And you take, take that step back. Do you feel anything like that? Like in these sweat lodges where, bro, you can only suffer so much. And then you gotta just like, take a step back and look at your whole life.

• 2:53:19Speaker 01

  Except, you, you have to let go. See, it's like, you have, it's, it's the art of like letting go. It's the art of detaching. Like, and that's when you go from that kind of physical to spiritual, where, where you're no longer holding on to anything. And you're just being. And that's when.

• 2:53:45Speaker 01

  We spend so much time asking and wanting things, but no time listening. Just being still and listening. Well, you know, in those places, you know, I'm like, you know, your mind's going a million miles an hour and you're like, I gotta get out of here. Like, all these things, like, ah, this, and things are popping up everywhere. I don't know, Betty, I wonder if she, who's Betty? Like, ah, like, all these things are coming, right? And, and then all of a sudden, when you, when you learn to quiet your mind and be still and begin to listen, the things that you need for your life, out of the nothingness comes to you. I don't know how to explain it scientifically, or, you know, like, in a lab, or, like, whatever.

• 2:54:26Speaker 01

  But I'm telling you right now, the, the, if you look at, like, Jesus, for instance, right, like, Jesus really, like, I mean, Jesus wasn't a religion, okay? Jesus basically said, "Love your neighbor as yourself." Well, to love yourself, you have to know who self is, or you only love the idea of self. So you have to know what yourself is, right? And then, the Kingdom of God, it's in you, okay? It's actually within you. And then, like, those leaders of the day is like, "By the way, those dudes are liars, and they're gonna kill me." But, you know, whatever. So he was a cataclysm. He was a nuclear bomb dropped on culture of the day, okay?

• 2:55:10Speaker 01

  So, we think of cataclysm, we think of meteorites, or floods, or earth fractures, or whatever, solar flares. But a powerful idea that speaks to the core of who we all are as people is a cataclysm, and he was a cataclysm of the day. But his message was simple, right? You have to love what, you have to, you have to love yourself. Well, you have to know who self is, and you have to love yourself. Then you have to love your neighbor the same way, right? And then, the Kingdom of God, it's in you. It's, it's in you, so you have to go within. And so, what does he do? He goes up there and he doesn't have food or water for 40 days, right? And then, you know, they kill him? And then, by the way, he comes walking through walls, like, "By the way, you never die."

• 2:55:53Speaker 01

  Okay, thanks for the message, right? I mean, that's the message. Like, if you look at through all about history, it's always the same. Know thyself. It's inscribed in the Oracle of Delhi. And every year, we have a different saying at Heroes and Horses that's on the belt buckles that the guys get when they graduate. This coveted belt buckle. And everyone, they have a different saying. And this year is gonna is the saying is know thyself. And, um, uh, you know, one year we had think greater than you feel. You know, we have all these other ones. But know thyself. And I think that's just gonna kind of stay there forever now. I'm done making up slogans. Uh, I, I think like, know thyself is a, is a powerful thing, right?

• 2:56:34Speaker 01

  And so that is inscribed in gold at the Oracle of Delhi, 1400 BCE. It hasn't, nothing has changed. Except for know thyself. I'll caveat that. Or else other people that actually know what you are will use you to create their own kingdom and enslave you. That's, that's what it is.

• 2:56:57Jocko Willink?

  This is, this is, this is reminding me of a, uh, I don't know. We were doing a podcast a while ago and we got asked a question. Some, it was like legit, I think it was legitimate dating advice. Someone was asking, or they got dumped or something like this.

• 2:57:10Speaker 01

  Ah, that's heartbreaking.

• 2:57:11Jocko Willink?

  And so I was saying, and I've given this answer a few times on the podcast. Hey, when you're, when you get dumped and you get broke up and you're all heartbroken. I, I try and explain that like, hey, the person that you were in love with, that cheated on you or that, you know, ran away or whatever they did. The person that you were in love with actually didn't exist. It, they, they didn't exist. That girl that seemed so sweet, but then she cheated on you or whatever. You were in love with this idea of this person and, and now it's gone. You have to accept the fact that the person that you were in love with actually didn't exist and it, it kind of is a good thing. You go, oh, wait a second. I'm all heartbroken. Now who am I going to marry? Now who am I going to spend the rest of my life with? Oh, no, actually, the person that I thought I was going to marry

• 2:57:56Jocko Willink?

  and the person I thought I was going to spend the rest of my life with didn't exist. That this girl was not a good person. And now I got to learn that. Now I can move forward. But what I'm relating this to what you're talking about is when people.

• 2:58:10Jocko Willink?

  Look at themselves and they got this idea of themselves that they're kind of maybe not in love with, but they at least like, yeah, you know, I'm this or I'm that. I'm a fighter, I'm a soldier, I'm a Wall Street dude, or whatever you are. You have this idea of yourself like, hey, you know, I kind of love who I am. And then there's something going on where you actually don't love that person. And because you know that that person that you're portraying doesn't actually exist.

• 2:58:39Speaker 01

  It's a projection.

• 2:58:40Jocko Willink?

  It's a projection. And so that's a rude awakening. And I think that can be a rude awakening when someone gets out of the military. And is all of a sudden saying, oh, the person that I was, which was a soldier, a sailor, an airman or marine. That person, all of a sudden, they literally don't exist anymore. And you can try and hang on to it, but it's got, it's, it's not gonna be there. You don't, like you said, you don't have, your, your friends, you don't have a work, you don't have a platoon anymore. You don't have a platoon anymore. It's, think about how heartbreaking it is when you don't have a platoon anymore. It's a freaking horror show. It's everything. I love a SEAL platoon. And all of a sudden, you don't have a SEAL platoon anymore. You don't have it. It doesn't exist anymore for you.

• 2:59:24Jocko Willink?

  And so you can't, you, you have to figure out, okay, what, what am I really? And you've got to dig in there and figure that out. And you know, I think for me, again,

• 2:59:35Jocko Willink?

  I was always like a rebellious kid growing up, blah, blah, blah. And I always was like questioning myself and I don't know, I think when, when, even when I was in the SEAL teams, like, there was, I'd look at some leadership and be like, this guy's whatever. This, this guy's not me, right? This guy's legitimately not me. Like, I know who my guys are. And I know what we're like, but that guy's, he's not really one of us. And there's a bunch of people that aren't really one of us. So I always kind of felt that. And it was okay when, okay, now I'm going to move on to my next job or whatever. I got out of the Navy, retired from the Navy. But man, trying to figure out, trying to make sure that you know who you are.

• 3:00:18Jocko Willink?

  And make sure that who you are isn't a construct. I just used your word of the day, construct. I normally don't use that word. That's an interesting word. I don't normally use that word. That construct that you built. It might not be for real. And if it's not for real, that's gonna, it's gonna sting and all, but it's gonna sting, it's gonna hurt, but cool. Now you know that, now you can figure it out. Now you can get in there. Start doing work.

• 3:00:42Speaker 01

  Baseline. You gotta hit the, you gotta hit the bottom of the bowl. You know, where, where, where the projection doesn't protect you anymore. Listen, you can, you can, you can dress up all day and put on the MMA stuff or whatever and until, you know, you get freaking spun kicked in the side of your head and then the projection doesn't work anymore, right? Like, and that, and that's life. We were all, you know, everybody's living some form of projection at some point in their life. And, you know, the thing is, is as those projections fade, you become depressed and you become disenfranchised. And, and the thing is, like, you don't have to be. If you have one job really in your life, is to wake up and just be yourself. And then you can't fail. You, it's impossible.

• 3:01:25Speaker 01

  Like, sure, it doesn't mean I do dumb shit. I do dumb shit. I say things, I have second guess, my, oh shit, I didn't call my wife. I should have ever said that. She's like, honey. And, but then she's like, it doesn't matter because that's just how you are. Just be okay with that. And so you just, if everybody just woke up and just, and just where there's authentic self, the entire world would be a completely different place. Like, think about, like, think about filters. Think about a filter on a cell phone. Right? You got some like lady where like, you know, the botox is failing, shit's going down. Probably was hot, ex-husbands in Dallas, like, you know, but you know, she's kinda like this, just kinda a little droopy. And then, and then she puts the filter on, you're like, boom, right? In love with a projection of themselves, you know? It's like the worst thing is you see everybody

• 3:02:11Speaker 01

  sitting on the bus and I'm sitting on the bus, you know, the, today. And, and everyone's like, you know, you can see them over there like liking, they're like, and they're like this, they're like lol, lol, like heart, heart lol. Like happy, smiley face, right? Like, they're the saddest looking people, you know, dudes like bellies are gross, their mask is on crooked. You know, their hair is fucked up. They got two cell phones, lol, lol, lol. Right? It's all a projection. It's a total projection. And so, like, we have to stop being projections and get back to the basics of who we are. But unfortunately, we put projections in these places where we try to be like somebody else rather than being ourselves. And that's destroying the fabric of humanity.

• 3:02:56Speaker 01

  And you know, if you look at, you know, you look at Chinese culture, um, they're all simulated. Everyone's wearing the same clothes. Everyone's doing the same things. Everyone's serving the same people. They're all born from Chinese mothers. They're all, you know, they all have this, they all have this plan in place. This 10,000 year destiny. Okay. What are we trying to do? We're trying to like, you know, we're trying to make the rent. You know, we're trying to like, you know, we're trying to pass the bill, you know, we're trying to, you know, you look at the, these people. Well, I don't want that either. That is a nightmare. There is no individuality. Like what do you exist? You exist to serve the state. Well, you exist here in North America to serve the projection.

• 3:03:36Speaker 01

  The projection, ah, I'm going to go, why, I'm going to buy the car so that when people see me, they'll think I'm successful. Even though I work at In-N-Out, which I'm not, no dings on In-N-Out.

• 3:03:46Jocko Willink?

  Actually props to In-N-Out.

• 3:03:49Speaker 01

  Oh yeah. By the way, didn't they just do some great stuff or something? They wouldn't do COVID vax or something? I don't know. Shout out to In-N-Out. Very good bitters. But like, you know, or whatever, like you, you, but like you'll see people will buy things and do things and extend themselves to a point to, to fulfill a projection. And it's so empty because there's never enough. There's always a new thing. There's always another thing. And so your whole life is giving you a projection. And that's why people are quintessentially lost. They're, they're literally have their self standing next to them in their life. And they're completely in the material realm. Everything is material. The five senses. There's nothing else beyond that.

• 3:04:29Speaker 01

  So in that case, I have to chase these projections down, get that one, get the next one, get the next one, so on and so forth. That's why like filters and all those things, like they're cancer because they, they, they are nothing more than a project. You don't look like that. You don't, you're not that way.

• 3:04:47Jocko Willink?

  Like a crazy, if you take a step back and think about this, hey, I gotta, when I send a picture to my friends, I'm going to run it through a computer program that makes me look better. Like that's a crazy thing, right?

• 3:05:02Speaker 01

  It's so crazy.

• 3:05:03Jocko Willink?

  That's a crazy thing.

• 3:05:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. Because it, because it, and it drives, it, it, it's put us into all forms of chaos as a society, right? Like where, I mean, you think about. You know, this whole thing on climate change, everything that's happening in the world is like, I think the debate is like, are we causing climate change or are we just destroying the environment? Right? Well, we are 100% destroying the environment. And for what? So you can have like another table? Another mahogany table? Okay, like, or more diamonds, you know, because I love you. And I want you to have this diamond that was mined by children in Africa and smuggled over here so that we can be together for a year. And then you can take half of everything I have.

• 3:05:50Speaker 01

  But, you know, it's this whole bizarre thing where it's like, we don't even care about anything except for enforcing our own projections. So it's like, hey, maybe we shouldn't like chop down every tree. Because maybe what I breathe out, the tree breathes in, what the tree breathes out, I breathe in. Maybe we shouldn't be dumping the chemicals into the rivers. What is that? Almost every river in North America now contains glyphosate in it, right? So it's bleeding in from NPK, from mass farming and agriculture. The soil's dying. I mean, I'm with ranchers, I'm in agriculture people, that's my life. And you listen to these old guys kneel down and pick up the soil, it's dead, right? And where's all this stuff going? Where's all these things going?

• 3:06:34Speaker 01

  What's happening around us is that people only care about their own projections. And the very things that give them life, they're destroying to further something that does only exist fictitiously as an idea. And it's a scary time to be living in right now. It's like, you know, here we are, like Ukraine, like Russia, like look out, like wow, like they're coming, they're gonna get us, ah, like they're Russians. And, and it's like, okay, but you're really concerned about their borders? But like, what about like our borders? Like, aren't those important too? No, only the ones in Ukraine. Right? And, and it's, it's, you get sold these illusions.

• 3:07:17Speaker 01

  And, and in turn, we destroy every single thing around us, including ourselves. And if we don't change, we are coming into an epoch, we are coming into a time.

• 3:07:32Speaker 01

  A real time that we will become unrecognizable to ourselves. And when I see guys coming and they're on 11 medications, they're on eight medications, they've been in therapy for 10 years. They're unrecognizable to themselves. They are unrecognizable. They look in the mirror. They don't know what they are. They only exist as a projection of an identity. And, you know.

• 3:07:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's like.

• 3:07:59Speaker 01

  Sorry for the doom and gloom, y'all.

• 3:08:01Jocko Willink?

  No, believe me. Listen to this podcast a little bit more. We got.

• 3:08:07Speaker 01

  I mean, there is like, yeah, there is like a 1940s like machete like.

• 3:08:13Jocko Willink?

  The weird thing is, is as you look at this stuff in a, in a large scale, all these things are in place. And you, you know, when you just were saying that about vets, you're on a bunch of medications and you're being basically subdued. You know, you're being subdued and it's not just vets. It's like humans. Humans are being subdued. Look, we don't really actually want you to do anything. We don't actually want you to come up with your own ideas. We don't actually want you to write your own freaking books. We don't want you to create something. What we want you to do is continue to, to feed our machine that we've got working over here.

• 3:08:57Jocko Willink?

  That's what we want. We want to feed our machine and we don't want you to feed your own machine. And that, that's, that's like what is actually happening. Cause people spend as, I don't know what the, what'd you say, 37 years in front of a screen or whatever it was. You're not gaining when you're doing that. That's not, that's not for you. That's for them. That's so they can sell your, they can sell you to whoever their advertisers are. So you can buy more of their stuff. That's what's happening.

• 3:09:23Speaker 01

  It's your energy. They need your energy.

• 3:09:28Speaker 01

  See, everything is energy. They need you, and I say they, okay, like corporatocracies, governments, whatever it is, marketing companies, data capture people, whatever. You see, they need your attention and your attention is your energy and that is the impetus for them to grow. But if you're using your own energy to do your own thing, that's problematic.

• 3:09:56Jocko Willink?

  That's scary.

• 3:09:57Speaker 01

  That's really scary.

• 3:09:58Jocko Willink?

  Scary for that.

• 3:09:58Speaker 01

  Right. It's terrible and they can't have everybody running around. So what they want you running around with a projection. You need all these things to help your projection.

• 3:10:06Jocko Willink?

  And it is, this is like almost cliche right now. It's cliche for me to say what I'm about to say. There are psychologists and scientists and computer programmers, or whatever they're called, sitting figuring out literal ways to make you look at the screen more, to addict you to that. That's what they're actually doing. They're actually doing that. They're actually doing that. And you're, by the way, you're paying them to do it in many ways. You're actually giving them money to do this so that they can get you to not think for yourself. And I'm not saying like, oh, think for yourself, come up with some crazy. No, think for yourself. Like actually think about what's going on around you. Instead, you're just receiving what someone else is telling you, which what they're telling you to do is

• 3:10:51Jocko Willink?

  waste more time looking at this and, and to buy whatever product it is that they're making. This is what's actually happening.

• 3:10:58Speaker 01

  Think about like what, have you ever heard of the Milgram experiments?

• 3:11:02Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 3:11:02Speaker 01

  It's crazy, right?

• 3:11:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:11:04Speaker 01

  What, two thirds of the people killed the person because the guy in the white coat told them to, right? So it's already figured out. We already understand how to like corral human beings and to get them to give their attention and focus into developing what, whatever it is, is vying for your attention, needs you. It doesn't exist without you. I mean, our founding fathers were pretty smart. We, the people, okay? You know, they understood that there is a power associated with the people, you know, the people united, the people, you know, believing in the goodness and the opportunity that was afforded by this nation. And, and, and instead we, we have fractured ourselves among the most trivial things.

• 3:11:48Speaker 01

  And then given our energy and then we complain about the very thing that we feed to build. We complain about it when we are responsible for paying for the bricks, the prison keepers, the uniforms, everything. And so turn your attention to something else. If you took that same time, you know, between 14 and 23 years watching TV in your life, let's just say, take one year out of that. Maybe you get 22 years of Netflix in, all right? Take one of those years and, and, and just solely dedicate it to yourself. And if you do, well, you will regain time because time is accelerating extremely fast. And it's accelerating because, because time is only realized by the experiences that are

• 3:12:33Speaker 01

  contained in it. Right? So like, like, you know, I've heard it said like one million years with one event or, or 10 minutes with 50,000 events. Every moment of our life is filled with, with, with an experience. And so we realize time and time accelerates and we accelerate our own time in life. It's like, at the end of the day, you're like, man, like you feel like you lived a lifetime because you realized every moment of that day and none of it was spent with you. None of it. And so you feel disconnected. All right. Well, don't worry. Take a vacation down to Disney. We're going

• 3:13:15Speaker 01

  to get you patched up, you know, have a couple of margaritas, eat four meals a day. It's vacation. Consume. Right? And so this built in acceleration that's happening that we feel in the world right now is caused because all of our energy is directed towards that. And so I think that we can walk away and, you know, I've, I've walked away, you know, I kind of started out when I first started this. I didn't know with social media, I had nothing. I'm like, okay, I'm starting a foundation, like, I gotta get an Instagram, you know? So I used to look back at like the Instagram I had and it was like, I didn't, I didn't even know what a hashtag was, you know? Um, I was like, it, I was like, you know, it was like me like chopping wood, you know? I'm like, do work or something. I

• 3:14:00Speaker 01

  had the worst things, but then it kind of grew and I got to like almost 20,000 people and I was like sharing ideas. And then, and then I, you know, throughout, you know, my experience of going through the program every season, because I'm out there doing it. Alright, I'm not out there like standing there like, you know, I'm living it with the guys. I'm feeling it. I'm feeling the ice. I'm feeling the cold. I'm, I'm, you know, I'm hitting the ground. I'm riding the colts. I'm like at 10,000, 11,000 feet. I'm building the camp. I'm feeling every moment. I'm in the sweat lodge. I'm doing, I'm not like this like kind of passive participant. I'm there. And then I just realized, I have to walk away. Like, I have to just do it. So I just,

• 3:14:40Speaker 01

  I just deleted it and I just walked away. And man, all these like anxieties and things like, what a way. You know, of course, like my foundation has it and all those kinds of things. And then like, I don't know, like a year later, I was like,

• 3:14:53Speaker 01

  I'm gonna start it off again. I got a message to share the world. And what do I start doing? Next thing I know, I'm sucking back in the hole. I'm in there and I'm doing this and do- And then I just, and then I just stopped. I just deleted. I'm like, I'm done for the rest of my life. I'm never doing that again. And, and it's like, it's the battered wife sedrovido. It's like, that's what I had. And, and I look and listen, people can choose whatever they want to do or whatever. But I'm just saying for my life, I needed to realize that my energy needed to be directed at something else. And that I wasn't being, you know, I wasn't fulfilling and maximizing my potential as a person because I was spending my time to start. And I was like, you know, consciously like, this is not a projection. This is who I am. This is, but then of course, I'm like, I don't like that little love handle.

• 3:15:39Speaker 01

  Honey, give him another side shot here with the axe. I'm in the remote wilderness here.

• 3:15:43Jocko Willink?

  Photoshop.

• 3:15:44Speaker 01

  Right, right, like Photoshop. You know, just, you know, it's three bucks. You get the abs. It's no big deal.

• 3:15:49Jocko Willink?

  This is the freaking man wilderness filter.

• 3:15:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And so, you know, so I, I'm trying to change. Like I, I, we haven't bought meat from the store in four years. You know, I sold my beloved pickup truck to my good buddy, uh, team guy. And I bought a 66 foot by 17 foot wide geothermal greenhouse and an excavator. And work on my land. And, you know, we have the ranch and, you know, training my horses and like, my kids, like they don't have any tech. They don't have any screen. I don't have an iPad. I don't have any of those things. Teaching them the real basic things like, and- I started realizing how much time I was actually spending doing the things that I'm

• 3:16:34Speaker 01

  actually railing against, you know, and so little tiny changes, one step at a time.

• 3:16:42Jocko Willink?

  So do you not have a vehicle?

• 3:16:44Speaker 01

  No, I have a vehicle, but no, I had this truck. I had this 75 Ford Highboy. I put a 429 Cobra Jet in it. I suited it all up. It was sick red, lifted. It was all, you know, it was cool guy, like one mile to the gallon. And I started like a bird died, you know, it was like that kind of truck and I loved it and I always wanted that growing up as a kid, you know? I mean, the Ford Highboy was cool when I was a kid and, but I sold that and I bought things and, and I've really, I've changed the relationships in my life and even the things that I exposed myself to and the content and those kinds of things. Radical quiet time in the morning, you know, like, like not just like working out and getting in my sauna or whatever, but like,

• 3:17:25Speaker 01

  like learning to just sit there and be still and thoughtless and then like, you know, get to the place where I can do that for 40 minutes without, without a thought and just breathe, nothing. And then all of a sudden I have all these realizations about things. I don't know where they come from. I, well, I do know where they come from, right? You get plugged in. That energy is real and you get plugged into it. And that's what guys find. Listen, there's days in the backcountry where it's like everyone's kind of chatty. And then there'll be like days where you're on a horse and it's like, nobody says a word. And it's just like, man, you can like, it's amazing.

• 3:18:05Jocko Willink?

  Everyone's real talkative at the first like 12 minutes of a forced road march.

• 3:18:11Jocko Willink?

  And then like 30 minutes in dead silence for the next four hours as you just omp it out. You're trapped in there in your own little brain.

• 3:18:18Speaker 01

  Do you think that you were, uh, do you think that you made the SEAL teams or SEAL teams made you?

• 3:18:28Jocko Willink?

  Probably a little bit of both. Well, yes, a little bit of both. Um, I can, I can tell you like from my experience of like going through BUDS, I was never going to quit. I never thought about quitting. I was just like, I was so stoked and happy. Like this is what we're doing. This is what I'm doing.

• 3:18:45Jocko Willink?

  It took me a while to figure out, like, I wanted to be a good SEAL. You know, that's what I wanted to be. Once I got in the teams, I wanted to be a good SEAL. And it took me a while to figure out what that actually was. And I, I don't think I really figured it out until probably about five years after I retired. And I would still be mad if I'm, I'm still working on it right now. But you know, there was different things that I did along the way where it seemed like the team guy thing to do. And then as I got older and figured out, oh yeah, that wasn't really exactly a good team guy thing to do. Now there's some core tenants that never changed. And I think the ultimate one is like, if you're a good team guy,

• 3:19:24Jocko Willink?

  you put your team in front of yourself. And that was seemed clear to me from day one. And, and I think that that is the ultimate, sort of the ultimate quality of a good team guy is like, oh, that guy, he will do, he, he will, he's going to put you ahead of him. And if you have a platoon full of guys and they're all putting each other ahead of themselves, like that's a freaking kick ass platoon. So I kinda knew that, or I kinda felt that way. Like even with the friends I had growing up, it was sort of that same mentality about not being selfish and not putting yourself, like not looking out for yourself. And, and so when I got in the teams, that core belief was probably,

• 3:20:08Jocko Willink?

  it was probably in existence when I got, when I was, when I got in the teams of like, hey, you don't put yourself ahead of your friends. I think, uh, that's what I was kind of, that's what me and my friends were like when I was a kid. And I think that was, that core tenet was there. So did it get honed? Hell yeah. It got honed.

• 3:20:31Jocko Willink?

  But I'd say it was kinda there, man.

• 3:20:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like something I feel like when I showed up at Buzz, it was like, I felt really inferior to everybody, like in the sense that everyone has like ripped and like they were like all like, you know, played football and everybody was like sports athletes and everyone was there and I just felt so inferior. I had like this shitty tattoo. Like everyone made fun of, well, not my classmates, but all the instructors.

• 3:20:57Jocko Willink?

  What was the shitty tattoo?

• 3:20:59Speaker 01

  Uh, I have, I still have it. Um, I have like a transformer tattoo. But it's just like a shitty outline that was done by a friend of mine, like on this arm and yeah, whatever. But like I got this thing and they used to say, Fink, get up here and show everyone your stupid tattoo. And then I had to get up on the truck and then they would be like, everyone laugh. Of course, everyone, you know, everyone would laugh and then they would come down and I remember we had this one, we had this one chief, my instructor on there, I forget, he's like, he was the one that was constantly calling me out. He's like, get up here and show everyone your stupid tattoo. And I was like, whatever. So I was like, go out there and show them the tattoo. Everyone would do the laugh and then we'd take off on the run, you know, kind of the thing. And, uh, and then one day he's up there and I was like,

• 3:21:42Speaker 01

  he's like, you know, if I had that tattoo like that, I, I think I would just kill myself. And I was like, well, if I had legs like yours, I would kill myself.

• 3:21:51Jocko Willink?

  Damn.

• 3:21:52Speaker 01

  And everybody was like, and then everybody laughed for real. So I, I proceeded to eat a mouthful of sand and I did the run. Every time I'd lost the sand, cause I would slowly do a little like I would stop it after refill, refill, and I would refill and I'd put the sand in and I'd run. But all the instructors came up to me and they were like, we got props for you. We know that like really sucked. They're like, they all like gave, gave props, you know? And, uh, but I, I just kind of like. Going through that, like, I did have that belief in myself. Like, I had a belief in myself and I would look at that instructors not in a sense of like they're out to get me, but that like, if they could be on the other side of this experience, then I could be too.

• 3:22:36Speaker 01

  That's all I ever thought about was like, if he can do it, I can do it. You know, it's like that was that movie, The Edge or whatever, uh, with, uh, Anthony Hopkins and, uh, who's the dude that just shot the guy?

• 3:22:49Jocko Willink?

  Oh, Alec Baldwin. He just shot a guy. A female, actually.

• 3:22:53Speaker 01

  He did. Yeah. Oh, he was a female. Yeah, that's right. And, um, yeah, but remember he did that movie, The Edge?

• 3:22:59Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it was a wilderness movie, right?

• 3:23:00Speaker 01

  And he's like, what one man can do, another man can do. Like, and I kind of like, I mean, I wouldn't say I was like thinking about that movie, but like in my own way, I, I thought like, man, if somebody else can be standing there with that shirt on, I could be standing there with that shirt on, you know? And I think pressure, I think those experiences just reveal who we really are. And I think that everybody could make it if they had the ability to look in at that, you know, that fire in the gut or whatever. But too often not, it's too enticing to wring out.

• 3:23:32Jocko Willink?

  I was, uh,

• 3:23:35Jocko Willink?

  I was not great at anything, right? I wasn't the fastest runner. I wasn't the fastest swimmer. I guess like you, I wasn't like a great athlete. I was like a maybe slightly below average athlete in high school. And then even I got to the teams, it was like, I was never gonna win anything.

• 3:23:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:23:48Jocko Willink?

  So I always felt like I had to work harder and to be a good team guy. And the quitting thing is crazy, actually. When you look at the things that happened with people, like incredible athletes. Like I was literally a below average athlete and I was young, you know? So like even if, if you went to college, you're more just developed. I mean, the difference between a 18 year old and a 22 year old is a big freaking difference. But you know, I, I had college athletes, D1 college athletes, had an Olympic alternate for gymnastics, which is crazy quit. Uh, wrestler, D1 wrestler quit.

• 3:24:30Speaker 01

  Wrestler? Really? Wrestlers are tough.

• 3:24:32Jocko Willink?

  You think? I think so. I think so. I, I'm actually, one of my swim buddies rang out in like, um,

• 3:24:41Jocko Willink?

  The after hell week in dive phase, we're doing something in the pool. And I'm, I think we're doing buddy breathing in the pool.

• 3:24:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:24:49Jocko Willink?

  And so I'm passing in my regulator and I'm taking two breaths and he's taking nine. And this dude was from like Iowa or something. He's never been in the ocean before and he was super pale. So he was just sunburnt. He looked bright red like the entire time. And, and so I'm doing, you know, taking whatever two breaths given to him. He's taking nine and finally he just stands up. We're in four feet of water in the pool. He just stands up and he goes to the surface and I'm like down there and I think, well, okay. So I stand up and he's just calling out like, hey, I quit. I'm out of here. This is, I'm not doing this after hell week. So that water thing can get a little bit crazy on some people.

• 3:25:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, the water thing is legit. You know, I've had some, so I mean, I almost drowned in Afghanistan. And yeah, I had like some, I've had.

• 3:25:37Jocko Willink?

  How'd that happen?

• 3:25:38Speaker 01

  I had some, um, crossing a river, uh, and the, uh, a rope that I was attached to got wrapped around a rock and I don't really know how much I can say about because of the nature of where we were and all those things.

• 3:25:53Jocko Willink?

  Well, you were in a river.

• 3:25:54Speaker 01

  I was in a river. Yeah. And so basically, um, had gone down there once, checked it out. It was much more intense than anticipated, uh, you know, and I had this like idea like about this water op and all this kind of thing. So again, studying it and there was a really, there was a mission that we needed to get done that had not been successful previously. And I was in this, this, this, this base with, with some guys and it's kind of like really amped up on this, you know, first water op, all the things. So go down there the second time with like a

• 3:26:25Speaker 01

  a hundred meters of one inch tubular nylon all tied together in a Alice pack. And I, the plan was that I would go upstream and offset and then swim down to the other side, then pull the equipment, set off a hoist system so that, you know, we could zip line all this stuff and get everybody across.

• 3:26:41Jocko Willink?

  It sounds good.

• 3:26:42Speaker 01

  So it was like, uh, uh, you know, class four rapids way, way, way north. And, uh, so.

• 3:26:50Speaker 01

  It starts off, I'm down there, I got like my, my boots on, I got my stuff, this is my second time down. Now, I've been watching this thing, drone footage, all the things, I've been observing this for a long time. I understood the flow of the river and there was a dog leg, which was like the point of no return. Like if you went there, there was a huge cave and I would watch on the footage, like logs and like trees did go in there. And like days later would be like boop, like would come out. So I knew if I went in there that I wouldn't live. And so I go down there and I start going like upstream.

• 3:27:23Jocko Willink?

  So now this is the, you're executing the mission.

• 3:27:25Speaker 01

  Well, I'm doing the.

• 3:27:26Jocko Willink?

  Are you doing a recon?

• 3:27:26Speaker 01

  I'm, I'm basically doing recon to see a proof of concept. And so we're down there, we got guys set up, security, the whole deal. I'm down there, I'm like really nervous, I'm like, whoa, this is like, I'm like in shorts and like, you know, this is like really a wild place. And there's huge cliffs, so there's only kind of one way in this wadi to the ocean, to the, to the river. So I kind of start going up, well, I end up getting like sucked into a cave that I couldn't see. It would just look like a dark spot on the, on the, on the aerial. And they like let all the rope go, the rope gets all tangled up around me. I'm like a cat grabbing on the sides, like I can't grab on anything. So I end up making to the beach. Now I can't, I can't get back. There's no way to get back unless I do that again, I'm not going in that cave. Nobody has any idea, it's like one o'clock in the morning.

• 3:28:11Speaker 01

  So finally I go up and I get the, the rope and I get it taut and I'm on the beach and I'm like, I sit down. I have a riggers belt on with a carabiner, my boots, fins and no shirt, a pair of shorts and a speedo underneath.

• 3:28:28Speaker 01

  Cause I have to contain that thing.

• 3:28:31Speaker 01

  Just kidding, so. That's a little lie, see it's a projection. And so anyway, I'm like, so I'm sitting there and I can tell you, I honestly felt like a lot of fear. I felt afraid because like the waves were so big, it was like.

• 3:28:46Speaker 01

  So I'm like, okay, okay, okay, like just like, just fucking Michael Phelps it like you can do it. And like, so I get into the water and I start like swimming as hard as I can. And I was unprepared for the violence of that water. It literally swept me away.

• 3:29:02Speaker 01

  And as I'm like flying down, I'm like, I kind of get like almost to where the dog leg is to get to the other side. And so everybody's like in this wadi, there's guys up here on this mountain, these two mountains. And this is all like cliffs. And it's kind of not cliffy on the other side. And you know, that was the plan. So as it's like turning like this, I kind of get to here and there's a boulder in the center. And the rope goes right around the boulder, which just they're holding an anchor. And I just become like a flapping parachute. And it just sucks me underneath and my feet go underneath the boulder. And I had a UDT life vest on. So I pulled the little thing, which I've never done in my whole training. And I was like, and it just ripped right

• 3:29:45Speaker 01

  off. It was like a toy. And my shoes are gone. Everything's gone. Finn's gone. Shorts are gone. I'm in my Speedo. All this is happening very quick. And I realized like I'm drowning. And I tried to unhook the carabiner. I physically can't. I'm not strong enough. And I'm no like cream puff. Like I couldn't physically, the current was so strong and I'm trapped.

• 3:30:08Jocko Willink?

  You couldn't move the rope, one and a half inches to get it out of that.

• 3:30:12Speaker 01

  And it was a stupid little like black issue like locking carabiner, you know, where I gotta twist the thing a half turn and like, and I'm like, and I started like really, I started drowning. And I started seeing like, you know, these kind of like, I guess like you would say a hallucination or whatever. I started like seeing all kinds of crazy images. And I started feeling like I'm going out unconscious. Like this is like the end. I remember saying like, please God, don't let me like drown in Afghanistan. And, and then meanwhile, these guys are like, everyone's piling down off the hill like thinking I'm like dead. They saw me like zip by. And so they're heave hoeing. And they're like heave hoeing, heave hoeing. There's a lot of rope. So they end up like heave hoeing the rope off the rock. And like I, right when I'm like about to totally just drown. And I remember

• 3:30:57Speaker 01

  the saying in Buzz, dry drowning is better than wet drowning. Dry drowning is better. I mean, don't breathe in because you can be resuscitated. But if you suck in, you're toast. Like all that water is going to go in your lungs. You know, being a medic like it too. And I just kept saying dry drowning is better than wet drowning. And I just refused to breathe in. And then all of a sudden I like pop up into the foam. And I remember like gagging in and sucking all this foam. And I'm like, and I just started washing down the river again. I'm just hitting rocks. I'm like doing cartwheels. I don't know which way is up and I'm, and I'm like screaming help like to nobody. And, and I'm like, ah, like, and I remember I'm like breathing in foam and I, and I get to the other side,

• 3:31:40Speaker 01

  which they could not access me because of the terrain.

• 3:31:45Speaker 01

  And I get to their side and I'm like, I'm on land and I start like crawling, you know, super fast to get up on shore. And then they just start dragging me on my face, right? They're like, hey, oh, like, and, and I'm like getting dragged back into the river. And so I get against this boulder. There's a lot of slack in the line. I do kind of like a squat like, and I popped the beaner off. And apparently everybody like fell down and they pull it back and they're like, he's alive. They thought I was dead. They thought I drowned. So now I'm like in my Speedo with no shoes on or anything in real bad guy land like, and there's like people with like lights collecting driftwood. There's like, and so I'm like, I crawl underneath this like outcropping and I cover myself in mud.

• 3:32:26Speaker 01

  Because I saw it on Predator and, and I mean, that's really what I did. I remember, you know, like that scene, you know?

• 3:32:34Speaker 01

  And, and so I cover myself in mud and I just lay there till like almost like probably

• 3:32:41Speaker 01

  an hour before first light. And I'm like thinking, I'm gonna be the first seal to ever be captured. Like, and I was like, ah, like fuck that. And I'm like, and I got like sticks and like rocks like piled up and I'm just, and I'm freezing. That like, one of the coldest moments I've ever been in my life.

• 3:33:01Jocko Willink?

  What was the water temp? What time of year was it?

• 3:33:03Speaker 01

  It was, uh, August.

• 3:33:06Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 3:33:06Speaker 01

  But it was cold.

• 3:33:07Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 3:33:07Speaker 01

  Super cold. And we were pretty damn close to as far north as you could go. And, um, so I'm, uh,

• 3:33:18Speaker 01

  I'm like laying there and then I see like some nods like lights and the guys had made it around come down there scanning the shore and I like popped out and I'm like here's like mud dude with like you know cool guy no with like his Vito on no shoes well I had no shoes so like they have my bag though we gotta get out of here now like so I'm like you know we're hugging like I thought you were dead we're doing that whole thing so I get my clothes and I have no shoes on and to tell the truth I don't remember walking back I I think I just like blacked out or something like because I was so cold and I had my shoes on and I was so you know I got my gun got all my stuff got everything we go back we get the base one of the guys there one of the OGA guys son's a team guy he runs one of the branches now um so sun's up we get

• 3:34:00Speaker 01

  back and he was there and he's like he's like in tears he's like you wanna have a drink so we go up and we go in the skiff and he's like I thought you were dead and I was like why did we do this like this is terrible like we should have never done this like blah blah blah so he gives me a drink we have a drink and I go back in my room and like that was like whoa so back to like opping it up whatever move on well my team leader comes to me like a week later and he's like hey brother I think you could do that again and I'm like I'm like sure definitely like go to my room I'm like I'm so scared I don't want to do that like that was the worst experience in my whole life like ah but of course I'm like yeah I mean definitely brother like for sure like

• 3:34:42Speaker 01

  so I started like watching all these YouTube videos and I started like river crossings all this kind of stuff I'm like okay like and so I order all this equipment from the um PJs and all this stuff comes up I got throw bags rescue stuff I'm like inflatables protects the whole deal long story short I go back down there to prove the concept and there was people down there so we bagged ass canked it and everyone want to burn the air now everyone's hearing about this like water mission going down and the night we were supposed to go and execute we never did do it and two hours before we left I was switched out with Josh Harris who drowned and died And I was right next to him. Yeah, so it's a lot of little details in there I'll leave out,

• 3:35:25Speaker 01

  but it was a, it was a bad deal. Yeah. And, uh, you know, that experience had an impact on me for sure. Uh, and so when I did the Ironman in 2012, one of the reasons why I did the Ironman was because as a freediver, I got into serious freediving, like serious. I Venezuela, Mexico, I go all over the world.

• 3:35:45Jocko Willink?

  That's why you were in the teams, you were doing that?

• 3:35:47Speaker 01

  When I was contracting and but I started freediving in the teams. Uh, matter of fact, I came up with this whole thing called spearfishing PT, uh, cause we had surf PT and I was like, that's not fair. It's discriminating. Like, we should have spearfishing PT, uh, which was the greatest thing because we never got back to work on time. There was always some kind of issue and so we got the day off basically. Uh, I know that that only lasted for like three weeks. Um, but yeah, so I, uh, I had developed, even diving around the world, like, I mean, I was going to very deep depths, you know, 110 feet, like, uh, killing, you know, tuna in Panama and then I spent, you know, three weeks in Venezuela diving. I always had this rec playing in my head of what had happened when I would get in situations. I got my arm

• 3:36:32Speaker 01

  caught in Venezuela underneath a rock at 80 feet, you know, and the next thing I know, it's like in my head, like I'm in Afghanistan, I'm drowning. Like, it was crazy. I'm like, I gotta kick this thing. So I ended up like signing up for the Ironman because I heard like the, the swim is the most terrifying thing in the world, which it was.

• 3:36:50Jocko Willink?

  No kidding?

• 3:36:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I had like a panic.

• 3:36:53Jocko Willink?

  That's a bold statement coming from that freaking Afghanistan story. Holy shit.

• 3:36:57Speaker 01

  Listen, you want a bunch of like middle aged men and women that are like, you know, hate their lives and trying to find themselves. Like, you don't want to be in the water with them because they're vicious. And, but anyway, like, I'm out there and I'll never forget it. Like, I'm a fast swimmer. I, I was like finished, I think, 112 on the swim in the Ironman, which is, is really good. 2.4 miles. And I'm out there and I started too far in advance for my skill. And then people started swimming over top of me like I was just a random buoy. I mean, they literally just kicked me in the face and just, there was 2,400 people just like swimming.

• 3:37:33Speaker 01

  And I couldn't catch my breath and I got kicked in the face. My goggles got kicked off and I had a guy and I'm like, hey, God, like guys, look at like the paddleboard's like, you need help, you know, like it races over like, and I'm like, I can't breathe. I can't breathe. And I'm like, oh my God, I'm back. And I remember this guy was like, I'll never forget it. He looks at me. He's in a panic like me. And I'm like, not panicking, panicking, but I'm just like, I can't catch my breath because every time I tried to breathe, I'd get some like, you know, 45 year old lady's foot toe up my nose. And, and so he grabs onto me and he's holding on to me and I'm at this buoy. And I remember he's pushing me down. He's like, and the paddleboards are trying to get in and I'm like in this mix. And I remember I just looked at him and I was just like, in that moment, I like faced it.

• 3:38:18Speaker 01

  And this dude was like pulling me down and I just like grabbed him by his like rubber cap and I punched him between the shoulder blades as hard as I could. And he was just like, like it was like electric shock like hit him. And I was like, ah, just like, ah, and I just started like swimming. And I, my wife has this great shot of me coming out. I look like, I look like I have like PTSD when I'm coming out of the water, like my, I have like bags under my eyes.

• 3:38:40Jocko Willink?

  I got news for you. You did.

• 3:38:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I came out of the water and I was like, I was like totally terrified and, uh, but I never had another bout with that ever again. And, uh, it was a moment where I was like, I knew I had like, I had like finally like faced that thing down, which was like playing in the back of my head. It was really weird. Uh, when I would get into water situations where I'd be in drowning, which happened a lot, like in free dive spearfishing, you know, and, uh, so, and I never had another, another, had another issue again. So it was a, it was a moment of my life that I'll, I will never forget as long as I live. When we go offline, I'll tell you some more details, but yeah.

• 3:39:23Jocko Willink?

  And then what, what do you got going on right now? Like with the, the beef, the ranch, the cows, like you're full on just going for it.

• 3:39:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I just, uh, I mean, Michael is, so we just purchased this ranch. We got a capital campaign going on. We've raised some money. Building a human development center there. So which will be, uh, it's a 10 person cold plunge, a 10 person sauna. A gym in the center and then a meditation room that's soundproof and then it vibrates at 528 megahertz of the earth. So it's very good grounding. Um, and uh,

• 3:39:58Jocko Willink?

  When something's vibrating 525 megahertz, do you hear it? Do you feel it or it?

• 3:40:03Speaker 01

  No, it's the earth. It's the earth. So like, if you ever, if, you know, I always tell people like, if you're having like anxiety or something like that, like, or you're just like, you know, sometimes you get that kind of like raciness or you feel like you gotta like down regulate a little bit. Like the best thing you can go out is go outside, take your shoes off, stand on the ground, be in total silence and stand there. And it usually goes away within like three to four minutes and then just breathe. It's very grounding. It grounds you. And so, you know, frequencies are super important. So we actually do sound with the guys. And, uh, last year, the guy said it was our first year doing it. Uh, almost every guy said it was the most profound experience of their life. We have, uh, somebody that comes in and brings those sound bowls and they bring up the resonance outside on the ranch, like

• 3:40:45Speaker 01

  deep where the sweat lodge is, and it just vibrates it. And they do these bowls and it's like

• 3:40:52Speaker 01

  some people, it's so intense, they vomit from it. Uh,

• 3:40:54Jocko Willink?

  So wait, you sit?

• 3:40:56Speaker 01

  You lay there.

• 3:40:57Jocko Willink?

  And these are big bowls. I don't know what you're talking about.

• 3:40:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're bowls and they stir them and they, each bowl produces a frequency and they can bring you up to the resonance, which ground, it grounds you. And so, um, you know, obviously like everything is frequency and everything is, is like, how are you looking at somebody on their iPhone? Like, how am I talking to you? How am I vibrating right now? And you are somehow interpreting what I'm saying in your brain. I'm literally vibrating to you and somehow you're like, yeah, let's go do something, right? Go over here like, and so, um, you know, that's, that's, that sound therapy is something that, uh, it works. It's very, very powerful. If you've, if you've never tried it, there's probably places here. Go, go to a sound bath. They have all these bowls, all these things. They'll bring you in there.

• 3:41:42Speaker 01

  And because your whole life is inundated with blue light and frequencies and wifi signals and all those kinds of things. So what you're doing is you're reestablishing a baseline. So, so yeah, so the ranch, we're building the human development center. We got an arena going up, a 100 by 200 indoor arena, so we can expand kind of into the winter time. And, uh, and then the guys live in non-electric wood cabins with outdoor showers and an outhouse. Total minimalist. So, um,

• 3:42:09Jocko Willink?

  You said the guys?

• 3:42:10Speaker 01

  The students.

• 3:42:11Jocko Willink?

  The students that are going through.

• 3:42:12Speaker 01

  Yep, are going through. So they live in like little lodgepole cabins that we're building that are just little bunks, a little wood stove and an outdoor shower and an outhouse, a double outhouse.

• 3:42:23Jocko Willink?

  You gotta get some of that.

• 3:42:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, get some of that. Yeah. Matter of fact, this year when we put the double outhouse out, we forgot to put the little blanket in the center and like three days later, the guy's like, hey, do you have like a blanket or something? And I was like, oh, I'm sorry. Until I forgot about that. But they were using it, which is disturbing.

• 3:42:38Jocko Willink?

  That's one of those things. That's one of the like starkest memories I have from Navy bootcamp was that there's no stalls in the shitters and you were just literally sitting down and there was someone sitting next to you, you know, a foot away taking a shit next to you. It's just the removal of whatever. It's kind of the removal of all privacy is gone.

• 3:42:57Speaker 01

  It's gone.

• 3:42:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's 100%.

• 3:42:59Speaker 01

  We own you.

• 3:43:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:43:00Speaker 01

  Poop next to that guy. That's how much we own you. Pooping that hole next to that other dude you've never met before.

• 3:43:06Jocko Willink?

  And by the way, there's another dude on the other side of you. That's also shitty. So that's good times. So you're, so you're building this. So this is going to up our capacity to take more students and do more.

• 3:43:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. Because right now, I mean, the guys are living in wall tents, uh, and everything's out, all the outdoor showers, all that kind of stuff. The ranch we bought has basically a tiny little cabin on it that, you know, Abraham Lincoln's contractor built and two pivots, you know, and, uh, and a small shop that had no well or anything. So we popped in a well, we've done all this stuff. And so now we're raising money to, to build that out and to expand the program, uh, to year round. And, you know, my goal is not to have some big giant program. Like I think that is the problem is that everybody thinks there's like one institution that can do it all. And, uh, my idea is to kind of get to a sweet spot, uh, with guys and then, you know, we're capturing data and then to go and to get other organizations to up level themselves and to begin to really

• 3:44:03Speaker 01

  start thinking about like human development and bringing forth change rather than like me saying like, I can do it all and I can build this huge thing. And I, I want to, I want to network with people and have them scale up and. That people that are really serious about human development and I think that will, I think we'll look back and this will be a hub of,

• 3:44:23Speaker 01

  you know, it'll be a place where a spark formed and when people start looking at things different because the guys that graduate this program, you know, it's a, they're, they're, they're change, they're different, they're changed, you know what I mean? And, and so I think that everybody deserves that opportunity, but I can't do it all. And I think that other people, like I said, there's 50,000 nonprofits in North America, you know? We spent $92 billion since 2012 in the end of 2020 and it's gotten worse. You know, and, and I'm sorry and a lot of people like, you know, they hate me because I say, you know, you know, you got organizations, they got Shetland ponies that you can take and they put sneakers on them and you walk them around town.

• 3:45:08Speaker 01

  Like my message is, you know, fuck you. Like that is, that doesn't, that doesn't do anything like, like it takes time and it takes commitment and maybe that's not for everybody and, and you'll have to walk your own path. But I think that as all these existing institutions, maybe I can find 10. Maybe I can find 10 that are focused on human development. Maybe, maybe it's saying like, hey, think about the change of a guy. You take a guy, he's 75 pounds overweight, he's on meds, he's like, but he wants to change and he's got the fire. And you put him in a 10 week fight camp, right? And then think about who that guy would be at the end of 10 weeks, right? Nutrition, diet, focus, meditation, ice baths, like working out, purpose, like feeling good, strong, like getting balanced, all those things like, I mean, it's, it's simple.

• 3:45:54Speaker 01

  But it's, it's, it's, it takes effort and it takes work. And so my, my goal is to, is to start a new conversation and bringing people together about what it, you know, about restoring, you know, these guys back to the dignity of who they are.

• 3:46:11Jocko Willink?

  It's crazy. Like the shit's not gonna be easy. If you're gonna reset your life and dig in and find out who you are, that's not gonna, that's not gonna be an easy evolution.

• 3:46:24Speaker 01

  There's no donuts.

• 3:46:24Jocko Willink?

  Like, yeah, it's like, mm. And it's, it's crazy, you know, that, that opening that I read from you was like, li- literally, there are some people that are literally trying to give you a magic pill that's gonna do all this work for you, like, which is a crazy thing.

• 3:46:39Speaker 01

  It's crazy. It's in, it's insane, like, when you think about it. But the thing is, we already know the secret sauce, right? That's why, you know, the business people are like, hmm, let's create something called obstacle course races. Right? Like, you literally climb over a log, flop into the mud, then some roided out dude hits you in the head with a foam bat, and then you get like a medal, and then the next day in the office, everyone's like, whoa, what's different about him? He faced an obstacle gym. And he overcame. Right? I mean, that is the essence. Obstacle course races, like, I mean, we, so, so, set that challenge in front of yourself. I think we can like unite together, do different. For me, like, I never thought, you know, we bought a ranch for three million bucks.

• 3:47:23Speaker 01

  I met this guy. He was delivering hay. I started talking to him, he goes, oh, my dad might be selling his ranch. You should meet him. Are you looking for a ranch? I'm like, sure. Yeah, definitely. We worked seven years with no ranch. Leased everything, set it up every year, mobile gypsy camp. It was a living hell. Imagine 70 horses not owning one sixteenth of an acre was a nightmare. And most people never saw that. And so, here I am, like, going to this guy's place, and I sit down with a cup of coffee, you know, big business guy. I sit down, I'm like, he's like, so you interested in the ranch? I'm like, yeah. He's like, well, do you have any money? And I'm like, no. And he's like, thanks for coming. Like, basically, it was like really nice, but then never talked to me again. So then, like, a year later, he calls me up, he's like, I'm definitely gonna sell the ranch. Are you interested?

• 3:48:08Speaker 01

  And I was like, absolutely. So I ride down there on my motorcycle, and I'm like, I sit down with him, and he pours me a cup of coffee, he goes, do you have any money? And I'm like, No, but I'm gonna get it. Cause I was like, it was like the jerk store with like, you know, with, with George Costanza, you know, I was like, thought of this, this comeback, like the whole year. And he's like, well, I said, I'll give you my word. Give me an opportunity and I'll, and I'll get it. And I, I didn't have any of that kind of resources. So we ended up getting a loan.

• 3:48:38Jocko Willink?

  What year was that?

• 3:48:40Speaker 01

  That was last year.

• 3:48:40Jocko Willink?

  So you got a loan against a charity?

• 3:48:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, we got a loan. Yeah, we got a loan on the ranch. And so, um, and I raised a million and five from various donors and put the, you know, down payment or whatever, took a loan out and you know, now we just launched a four year capital campaign to build a ranch out. So some 7.5 million bucks over four years. And, uh, and then, you know, the funny thing is about nonprofits is that I don't own it. I'm basically, even though I'm the founder, I'm, I'm just an employee. I'll never have those assets. Like if the whole thing dissolved tomorrow, goes to either the state or to another nonprofit. And so, you know, I exist in this solely for the development and betterment of my fellow man. And I think that, you know, whether it's a veteran or it's a stay at home mom or somebody

• 3:49:25Speaker 01

  recovering from a, getting ran over by a dumb truck or whatever it is. Um, I think that people are gonna once again begin looking, um, to, to partake in that hero's journey and that journey of self-discovery, to get out of the places, um, that they're currently in. And so that's, that's my goal. And we're capturing data. We're working with the university to get results and stuff like that, so that I can go to other nonprofits and sit down with that person and say, listen, I know you give $5,000 to critically injured soldiers. I also know that you have $290 million in the bank because your financials are public and online as a nonprofit. Maybe you could run a program that actually does something for people beyond, you know, uh, getting on their kids' iPads.

• 3:50:09Speaker 01

  Maybe we can do something to better mankind, you know? Maybe we can do something to level up, you know, society, our society, our community in a way and, and stop giving handouts and start, you know, giving handups. You know, I, I think that handouts are a total failure. I think, yeah, of course people have things and stuff like that, you know, critical things. But like for the most part, like. You have to own it. You have to earn it and you have to own it. And I think we get in the opportunity business and we get out of the handout business. Oh, you served? Come on and float in a tube. And we have a massage therapist online. Thank you for your air force time. Oh,

• 3:50:51Speaker 01

  here's a filet mignon and a carrot and a raspberry, like, you know, and a jacket and some fishing gear, even though you live in Detroit and you live in a one bedroom apartment and you live below the poverty line, like most veterans do. And, and, and maybe I'm going to give you an opportunity to change your own life, but you're gonna have to do the work. And we get back in the opportunity business. That's, that's what I want to see happen. And then hopefully, you know, uh, you know, when the meteorite hits the world and dinosaurs come back or everything like that, it'll be like a plaque somewhere. It was like, he tried to do good, but it was futile.

• 3:51:29Speaker 01

  They destroyed themselves.

• 3:51:30Jocko Willink?

  Aren't you, aren't you trying to, uh, do something with, with beef too? Like?

• 3:51:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. So we

• 3:51:36Jocko Willink?

  What's going on with that?

• 3:51:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, uh, so the beef model is kind of like, so I, I talked about this social hybrid is nonprofits are in this perpetual starvation cycle, right? Where you're beholden to the donors, where, you know, you have to raise money and then, you know, you're constantly in this state of having to raise money because you can't generate money because you're a nonprofit. I didn't know that by the name when I started. I'm like, why am I so broke? And then like five years later, I'm like, wait a second, nonprofit? Damn it. So, um, but I was like, we have this ranch. Uh, you know, we're going to start a cattle company, farm to table, you know, and I think that like the care of the animal from the moment it's born, living and dying on the ranch,

• 3:52:19Speaker 01

  treating the animal with respect. Um, you know, if you've ever been to mass agriculture and you saw what it's really about, it's one of the most disturbing things that you've ever seen in your life. And if you've ever been to a slaughterhouse or a packing plant where they're doing a thousand head a day, you know, they're picking them up with skid steers and terrified adrenaline hormones. Like it is very.

• 3:52:42Speaker 01

  It's not good. And I think that carries over to the food. And so like, you know, raising that animal, honoring that animal, letting them graze, letting them live, letting them be out there, letting them live their lives, sustainably harvesting them, teaching people how to do that, you know, integrating that, and then selling that beef to donors that can then in turn support the program so that the ranch stands on its own two legs. So it's a social hybrid. It won't exist to make money, but it will exist to sustain, you know, the program, then also expose people to that animal husbandry and to that ranching side of the house. And then also, you know, down the line with the beef. I think like, to me, food, like where your food comes from is so important and it's so critical to the wellness of the individual. You can't expect to be happy if you're eating,

• 3:53:27Speaker 01

  you know, Cheez-Its and garbage and all those kinds. It all is tied together. Your body is the subconscious mind and even down to the food that you eat. And, you know, when I started getting exposed to this world and I started seeing things, I was like, man, this is like rough. Like when you really see what's happening with the animals and those kinds of things. And listen, I'm not like, you know, out there like, you know, whatever, like an activist or anything like that. But I'm like, there's a better way. Like the natives did it right. You know, they harvested, they took what they wanted, they used every component of the animal. Think about the waste that we have. They only take the best cuts. Everything's dog food or this or that or like. And so for me, it's like butchering the whole animal, using the bones to create bone broth, taking

• 3:54:09Speaker 01

  the hides and making boxing gloves and American made boxing gloves with the hides and like, taking all the fat, taking all those things, taking the bones, making biochar out of them, right? So like using that as a, as a organic fertilizer that we could use on the ranch and we could give away and share with other people, like using the whole animal and teaching guys those things. Because when they become connected to their food, they start to understand the system that they're a part of. You know, I tell people, the whole world is, it's like your life is held together by a wire. Okay? A wire. So like if the wire breaks, meaning like the power goes out, millions will die within weeks from a wire.

• 3:54:52Speaker 01

  Like, oh, I'll hunt. You're not gonna hunt. You're not gonna make it out of your high rise. You're gonna be like, you'll be in a $25 million tomb. Okay? The water comes out, what are you gonna do? It's over. A cable, a cable breaks. The internet goes out and millions die. And I think that so many guys like come and they realize and they change their whole lives because they start to realize the role that we pay in the system and how, you know, how everything is now handed to you. And you take for granted all those aspects. And so my goal is to stand up that, that system and that human development program and then begin to get other people to do the same thing. And I want to expand a community, you know, and, and that's my goal.

• 3:55:36Speaker 01

  So that's what's going on with the beef.

• 3:55:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, just to, I mean, I, I talk a lot, well, not a lot. I talk about China.

• 3:55:44Speaker 01

  China?

• 3:55:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, China. And, you know, we saw a lot of this during COVID. Like, what are we dependent on? But we're dependent on China for food. And a lot of people don't recognize that.

• 3:55:57Speaker 01

  China, let me, China, China is coming for us. I tell people, I'm like, if you look at Mao during the Chinese Industrial Revolution, the Great Leap Forward, Mao knew that he needed nuclear technology. There's been five emperors in China, emperors, you want, that's what I'll call them. Dictators, whatever, leaders, great ones, whatever, dragon lords. So like, microgram. And so, but if you look at what they did, he understood that they needed nuclear technology. So what did he do? He traded food to the Russians in exchange for nuclear technology, starved his own people, 30 million people died during peacetime, and he got the nuclear weapon. They have a 5,000 year plan, alright?

• 3:56:42Speaker 01

  They understand that by, by enslaving their own people for cheap labor, because Americans exist for consumption. I want it now and I want it cheap. And it's like my house, I go in there, how many, how much shit do I need, right? It's, ah, it's cheap. It's only three bucks, another potato peeler. You never know. So, so, so.

• 3:57:07Jocko Willink?

  How many potato peelers did you actually have in the house?

• 3:57:10Speaker 01

  I did have five. I did have, I kept two. Shout out to Cuisinart, but I, I was like, if you look at them, they're smart because what they did is they understood the American psychology. They understand that Americans are overconfident because from childhood, they're told, you're the best. You're good. You get praised for things you never deserved. They're entitled and lazy. Chinese are the opposite, right? So they're like marching forward to their 5,000 year destiny. And so what do we do? We outsource everything to them for super cheap goods and in turn handcuff ourselves to them. Right? Including our medications. The world's most critical medications are made in China.

• 3:57:52Speaker 01

  And so, you know, China is on the move and their military is now expeditionary. They're providing aid to foreign countries. They've got their jets and let me dig a hypersonic missiles. And let me tell you something, they're not over here like trying to pass the P T test. Okay. Oh, didn't, you know, gotta go to FEP because I didn't make it. By the way, my rights matter. You don't toe the line in the Chinese army. You wind up as bio char. Okay. They don't, no need for you. And, and Xi Jinping said that, you know, if we try to stand against the Chinese, this is two months ago in a live speech. He stood on their show of force and he said, you will meet a great wall of steel made by 1.8 billion Chinese that are unified.

• 3:58:35Speaker 01

  What are we over here like, don't go over here, like, I don't like you, like, so they banned all girly men on TV. There is no boy bands allowed. Social media turns off at 10 o'clock at night. And, and what are they preparing for? To be a world leader. And who are they locked up with? The Russians, right? And, and because they see the United States dwindling because consumption, consumerism, entitlement, overconfidence. And, and this desire to tell people what's right and wrong. You know, like we have these things and then what happened in Afghanistan, right?

• 3:59:14Speaker 01

  We're no longer a force for good. We are, we better rethink because this enemy is not like an Afghani running around in pajamas. These dudes are probably genetically modified. Who knows what they're gonna do? They might unzip their fake Chinese bodies and come out and just be like, who knows? Right? They are genetically modifying super soldiers. Forbes just, or was it a time or whatever? Just had a thing on them. So we are facing a time right now where this entitlement and all these things that we have are coming home to roost on us. And, you know, buyer beware, because if the cable breaks, if the earth even burps, okay, if it just rumbles in the

• 3:59:54Speaker 01

  wrong place and the power goes out for, say, two months, millions upon, there won't be enough excavators to dig the holes for the bodies that will burn. People can say, oh, no. But it's the truth. Think about it. If you're living in a $25 million high-rise on the 98th floor, and the power goes out, where do you get your next sandwich from? By the time you make it down, every store will be gone. All the food will be gone. There will be no water. Your well pumps won't work. Just think about it. Life is held together by a cable. And we never think that that cable's gonna ever break. And you know who's

• 4:00:36Speaker 01

  holding part of that cable? Network is China. And I don't think that China would have picked a fight with us, but I think we've picked a fight with them. And because here we are just bloating, bloating, bloating, bloating, bloating. And, and, and they're refining, refining, refining, refining, refining. So, I mean, if Putin invades Ukraine, I bet you, I bet you you see China, China go after Taiwan simultaneously. I wouldn't be surprised. And then they could launch hypersonic missiles and vaporize our fleet in two seconds. And then it's either go nuclear or stand down.

• 4:01:13Jocko Willink?

  I think, I don't know, what's, what's today? Just for reference, today is the 24th of January.

• 4:01:19Speaker 01

  Nice.

• 4:01:20Jocko Willink?

  I think that Putin's going in. I think Ukraine's, I think it's on.

• 4:01:24Speaker 01

  And I think what he's doing, he's looking at Biden, who's compromised. And he is.

• 4:01:31Speaker 01

  It breaks, it breaks my heart and Russia has a bone to pick because think about it. We Eisenhower screwed them over because we're supposed to pay them all that money and we never did. And then we chased them over to Afghanistan, you know, caused problems over there, whooped on them over there, did the Cold War, ripped the walls down, crushed your economy, did all these things, right? And now we're telling them, oh, you can't go across those borders. And they're just like, meanwhile, the Russians are over there like every guy is like Khabib. He's like, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill. Our guys are over here like, stand down, people are being mean. They're gonna call us back up.

• 4:02:12Jocko Willink?

  Not all Americans are like that. There's definitely too many that, I mean, there's definitely plenty of Americans, I work with a lot of young military folks and man, they are, uh, there's kids ready to rock and roll. But I don't know if the country is, if the country is willing to sacrifice like in those situations.

• 4:02:30Speaker 01

  Our guts are ripped out. I mean, think about 20 year war. You think, you think about like the United States, there was a USA article last year, it's, it's worth checking out, even though they're kind of like, whatever. But like, they have a, a article with a moving map on it called the cost of war. If you Google, if you look it up or DuckDuckGo or whatever, brave it, and you will see a moving map and it shows last year, the United States, you know, waged war in 88 countries. Okay. So we, we had, we had an 88 countries. So we're getting, look at the British Empire. They got so spread, so thin in so many places, right? And they got so worn down. They were facing conflicts in Turkey and the conflicts in India and conflict, next thing you know, America, you know, you got George Washington's

• 4:03:14Speaker 01

  like, I'm gonna kill you, right? And, and so America's become super extended. And I think we need to restore what it means to be an American. Like, I think we've lost, I think that term is synonymous with the wrong things. And, and being a patriot is synonymous with the wrong things. And you think patriot, you think like dude riding it jacked up side by side like woo, like, like freedom, like, no, there is no freedom. There's only free. And that's what America, freedom means that someone's affording you that. To me, free is an inalienable right. Is to live like as I see fit and fulfill my purpose and this nation affords me that. And in turn, I serve, you know, my country that gives me the opportunity and provides

• 4:03:58Speaker 01

  all this infrastructure and all those kinds of things. We take all that for granted and we need to restore the message of what it means to be an American. I don't care what political parties and what color and your race and I don't care about any of those things. What it is, is a common thread that made this nation incredibly great and we've taken it for granted and it's starting to get frayed. And what happens is that it's like Lenin said, you give them a rope and let them pull it around their neck and they'll hang themselves. Matter of fact, they sold us the rope and we put it around our necks. And so I hope, I hope we can change. I hope the noise can quiet down because if people got serious, just you change the world by changing yourself. That's the thing.

• 4:04:41Speaker 01

  There's not these big grandiose ideas where I get out there and I'm like, I have this huge idea. The idea is that on the really macro scale, I change myself and when I change myself, I change the things around me. And when the people around me change themselves, the things around me change. And that's how mass change happens. It happens inversely as well. And so, you know, change for the negative. And I think like to restore what it means to be American, to be able to walk down the street and to be able to grab somebody by the hand, to be united, to, uh, to restore it kind of that, that, that viewpoint of, of what's made us so great is, is the, is, is the common thread that runs through the hearts of every single one of us.

• 4:05:25Speaker 01

  And, and we have to put all those things aside, all these projections aside and get back to the basics of what it means to be a human. And I think that we can come back from this. Do I think we will? I don't know. I don't know, but if we don't, it will happen to us and, uh, and it will be more swift and more violent than we could ever imagine, whether it comes from the planet or whether it comes from another nation. The time to change is now, is right now and, and, and to readjust. So.

• 4:06:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And like you just said, all that starts with you.

• 4:06:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:06:11Jocko Willink?

  Whoever you are.

• 4:06:12Speaker 01

  You.

• 4:06:13Jocko Willink?

  If you're listening to this right now.

• 4:06:15Jocko Willink?

  It's you.

• 4:06:15Speaker 01

  It's you. Change. And don't be afraid to change. You know, we're so attached to these outcomes like, don't be afraid to change. And uh,

• 4:06:25Speaker 01

  yeah, I just like, I, I, I, I see it in the world and I see people like I, like today on the bus, I saw all these people. I'm like, man, we are so disconnected from each other. Just trying to walk out the door of the bus to the rental car company. People are shoving each other just to get out first so they could

• 4:06:49Speaker 01

  do what? Be one step in front of the other guy? Right? Like, that's not who we are as a nation. That's what makes us different. And we gotta get, we gotta get back to those cores, core values.

• 4:07:02Jocko Willink?

  All right.

• 4:07:03Speaker 01

  This is a long one.

• 4:07:04Jocko Willink?

  That's all good, man. Um, I want to make sure. So you've been mentioning your, your nonprofit.

• 4:07:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:07:11Jocko Willink?

  Horses and heroes.

• 4:07:13Speaker 01

  Heroes and horses.

• 4:07:14Jocko Willink?

  Did I get it backwards? It's heroes and horses?

• 4:07:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, heroes and horses.

• 4:07:17Jocko Willink?

  Heroes and horses. You can go to heroesandhorses.org is in there. You also have Instagram and Facebook and a YouTube channel. Heroes and horses. All of those can be found at the same spot. Um, Echo, you got anything?

• 4:07:36Speaker 02

  I do actually. Okay. So a long time ago, a few hours ago, you mentioned something about an experience with a black bear. And then you just sort of moved on.

• 4:07:43Jocko Willink?

  Dang. Good point. I wanted to come back.

• 4:07:46Speaker 02

  I kinda wanted to know what, what happened with the black bear.

• 4:07:48Jocko Willink?

  Are you wearing that fucking thing's claw around your neck right now?

• 4:07:53Speaker 01

  You know, you know what's really funny about that is I've had so many run ins with bears at this point in the game. I look back at that one and it, and it's kind of makes me chuckle. I mean, I've had, you know, we had a bear come out, horse go off a cliff and getting impaled. Like, I mean, I've, I've run into him archery hunting all the time. And, and now I'm like, my black bear story, when I was like a teenager, coming back from my dark years. And this black bear like tapping is kinda like, if I see a black bear literally in the background, I'm just like, I'll just pick a stick up. I'm like, ah, and he's like, ah, literally take off. A grizzly bear is different. A grizzly bear is like, you feel like you're hunted. But yeah, no, what had happened was I was out hiking. I was kind of just like, you know, here I am returning from, you know, this kind of childhood.

• 4:08:37Speaker 01

  You know, I guess you could say prodigal son kind of experience and I'm up there hiking and a grizzly, while I'm sleeping out in no tent, a small black bear kind of comes in and he's like literally sniffing around. He's all by me and everything and all I had was like a Swiss Army knife that I'd gotten from my grandfather. He'd have the kind with a little white toothpick he could pull out. And, and I never had it. And, and I was actually very terrified at the time. I was like, oh my God, like here's this thing. I'm laying in my sleeping bag and he's just kind of sniffing around, sniffing around, he's walking around. And that's what really like, I started thinking about my life. He got my food. I didn't have it wrapped up properly. It's my food. And so anyway, that experience right there,

• 4:09:19Speaker 01

  like when I came back, I finished my hike with no food. It was like a three day hike. So two nights and three days total. And that was on my first night. And that whole time I reflected on what did I want my life to be. And so that was a real pivotal moment in my life. That, that little black bear came in and, and made me think about the fragility of my own life. You know, and it, and I'll tell you like, there's nothing more, that feeling in the wilderness of,

• 4:09:48Speaker 01

  the wilderness has no mercy. You know, it has only rule and only law. It has no mercy. There is no equality in nature, you know, and you feel that when you're around animals and you see them and you're with them. There's a, there's an honesty that happens, you know, and I discovered that honesty really for, because I was a lost person, you know, and I, I did feel like I was invincible. And so that little black bear kind of brought it in, made me wear my Swiss Army knife and made me feel my own fragility. So that's what kind of led me to taking the next step to, to change.

• 4:10:21Jocko Willink?

  Well, I'm gonna ask you, I'm just gonna, so what happened with the grizz and the horse falling off the cliff?

• 4:10:25Speaker 01

  Man, so.

• 4:10:26Jocko Willink?

  Cause I mean, I mean, they're gonna ask you now, we're gonna stop recording, I'm gonna ask you as soon as we get done. So you're gonna have to tell everybody, otherwise everyone's gonna have to tell it one time.

• 4:10:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I was like, you know, um, it's like my second season packing and, um, you know, I got a pack string with me and I'm in the back and a grizzly bear kind of comes out on the trail, he comes but kind of like barreling down. Most of the time the bears will stop, kind of like look, sometimes they'll stand up and then they'll usually, when they see the horses, they don't like the horses. When you're alone by yourself, that is a completely different story. And one of the guys, one of the cowboys was in front of me and he thought he was gonna kind of spook the bear off more, which was still kind of going down the trail, cause he dropped down to the next switchback. And when he did, the, the horse spooked when the bear moved and he went off the side and it was very steep and the horse kind of locked up his hindquarters

• 4:11:17Speaker 01

  and then took a jump, locked up his hindquarters. And then there was like one huge, like Douglas fir with a giant timber or, um, bow sticking out that was like pointed. And when the horse leaped, you know, at that kind of steep grade, it gained a lot of altitude. And it landed directly onto that thing and it went through its stomach and out its side. And it would made the most horrible noise I've ever heard a horse make in my life. And it was like, like, and it was like making this bellowing sound, the cowboy flips off, peels the head stall off the horse, everyone's like screaming like, my God. So I'm like, I like jump off my, uh, my horse, I just leave the mules loose and I start like, kind of trying to get down to him.

• 4:12:01Speaker 01

  And the horse is like kicking and blood is like pumping out, it's hitting me, my face, I mean, it's a large animal. And, uh, I'm trying to get him up off this thing and the cowboy's kind of heads dazed and he's like there and I was like, I need help getting this horse up. We're trying to stop the bleeding, like, you know, I'm like, and then the horse died, died like probably like within 10 seconds, bled out. I mean, it was a massive injury. And, uh, where was nothing more healing than that. Uh, uh, yeah, so I, you know, that was a, that was an intense experience. I've had him up, we had some guys, we had a guy quit, uh, three years ago. Bear came out, barreled, uh, towards the whole pack string.

• 4:12:44Speaker 01

  Uh, the guy that was working for me at the time, shot him. And tumbled them, bear turned, came at him again, hit him a second time.

• 4:12:53Jocko Willink?

  What was he shooting?

• 4:12:53Speaker 01

  Three fifty-seven. That's why I carry a forty-four mag. And I was like, oh dude, the ten mil, more shots. I'm like, forty-four mag. And they're, so the bear tumbles and of course you gotta call the forest service and it's just like investigation. And they came up and it was thirteen feet. The shot was made thirteen feet, the bear print from the horse. So he was about, he was about to tackle the animal.

• 4:13:19Speaker 01

  But most of the times, you know, they don't really want to bother you, but you know, you never know.

• 4:13:24Jocko Willink?

  And the guy that quit was like, yeah, no, I'm good.

• 4:13:26Speaker 01

  Well, the whole pack string exploded. Okay. So here comes a grizzly bear, dead run. And next thing you know, these guys are, you know, they're on day nine on horses. Their horses start bucking and you blow up and the mules are going every, I mean, it's like a yard sale.

• 4:13:40Jocko Willink?

  This is complete freaking mayhem.

• 4:13:42Speaker 01

  Mayhem, mayhem. You, cause like, I mean, somebody that's more skilled could have like got a hold of them. If you watch that film, The Five Hundred Mile Project, you get, it's, it's, it's a great film, but we had a guy,

• 4:13:57Speaker 01

  a mountain bike run into him and the horse reared back and broke his orbitals and broke his face and, and then have to get medevaced or whatever. But things can get sideways, you know, with horses like pretty quick. And that grizzly bear experience was, was one of those. But it doesn't happen often and, you know, so by the way, apply to the program. It's totally safe.

• 4:14:18Jocko Willink?

  Almost totally.

• 4:14:19Speaker 01

  We'll protect you. No, but it's, it's a huge opportunity. We just opened applications, by the way. I'll plug that real quick, last week. So they're piling up quick. And, you know, we'll, we'll close them, I think, March thirty-first and then April first, we select the class. So we kind of select them along the way.

• 4:14:36Jocko Willink?

  And that selection is eight people?

• 4:14:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's, there's three eight-man classes and then we'll run a winter class. So we'll have thirty-two guys go through the program this year. So, yeah, so, so applications are open now. So go to heroesandhorses.org and. It'd apply if you're interested in coming out for the experience of your lifetime.

• 4:14:55Jocko Willink?

  Right on, man. Awesome.

• 4:14:56Speaker 02

  And 357 Magnum, no good for bears.

• 4:14:59Speaker 01

  No, it's not. I mean, I have a 44 mag. I'll tell you right now, I've like, I've done so many side by-side comparisons with guns like 10 mils, 357s. I'm telling you, you want that initial knockdown power to be a wake-up call. And let me tell you, when a bear runs, they put their head down, low to the ground. They're not like up, they're super low to the ground. And so, you know, a lot of people don't realize that like, they're actually difficult to hit. Because they're like, when they're running at you like that, you know, 30 miles an hour, they're coming at you. There's a lot happening very quickly. And bears aren't as scared of people anymore. The scariest thing is when I shoot, you know, when I knock an elk down,

• 4:15:41Speaker 01

  and I'm by myself, and then I got, you know, hit on the GPS for the guys that are riding their horses or whatever, and I'm out there by myself, like standing over a gut pile. That is like the worst feeling.

• 4:15:50Jocko Willink?

  Chum in the water, man.

• 4:15:52Speaker 01

  It's the worst feeling. Like, you want to, I always build a fire, and I like make it like super big or whatever, and I try to put pine boughs over and piss on them, or do all these like the kind of things or whatever, but you want to talk about like getting in your, you know, I'm doing the whole like, what was that? I'm the only one out there. I'm like, yeah. There's no like cool guy.

• 4:16:09Jocko Willink?

  How long does it take their horses to get to you?

• 4:16:10Speaker 01

  Uh, depends where I'm at, you know, sometimes it could be a day.

• 4:16:13Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so have you ever slept out on some guts?

• 4:16:16Speaker 01

  No, no, no, guys come no matter what. Your horse can see at night. I always tell, listen, we ride at night and it's, I mean, things happen. I mean, there is no, it is what it is. You ride at night. You want to find out. You know, I always tell people, I said, you don't know, you know, a lot of people don't know this little bit of history, but I always tell them that the, uh, maybe I shouldn't say this. But the, an old cowboy told me one time that the Catholic religion was actually started in Montana. And it was a, it was an old outfitter looking for tree branches at night. Riding his horse. And I always tell that joke to the guys joking around, shout out to the Pope or whatever, but I, I, uh,

• 4:16:54Speaker 01

  it works. Like, if you ride, you can't see anything and you're like, you know, it is the craziest feeling to ride all through the night on a horse. It's wild.

• 4:17:02Jocko Willink?

  But the horses know what's up.

• 4:17:04Speaker 01

  Oh, they see perfect that night. No, but you can't see anything. You know, and you're walking on these like ridges and you just hear like rocks like ding ding ding ding. You're like, okay, you're just like, you're like riding a horse named like Dingbat or whatever. You're like, I don't know. I trust you. But they don't want to die either. So, but yeah, heroesandhorses.org. I really appreciate the opportunity and taking the time, you know, to kind of hear the story and stuff. So, thank you very much.

• 4:17:29Jocko Willink?

  Well, hey, man. Thanks for coming on, you know, sharing these lessons. Thanks for your service and everything that you did. And really, man, I think thanks for the most part, what you're doing right now. Man, I think it's awesome and appreciate it, bro.

• 4:17:45Speaker 01

  All right. Thanks. Thanks, Echo.

• 4:17:49Jocko Willink?

  Micah just stepped stepped out. Awesome having him on. I just was reviewing my notes that I was taking while he was talking. And most of them I got to, but there's one that I didn't get to address. And I'm sure maybe you can come back on at some point. We can talk about it or we'll just talk about it. But you remember he told the story or he was he was making hypothetical situation. Warren Buffett is in the desert. He has no water and Micah sees him and Micah has water. And Warren Buffett's gonna die. And he says, you know, I'll give you this water, but you have to give me all of your money.

• 4:18:30Jocko Willink?

  And and and Micah says, so he's gonna do it, right? And that's true. Often. But here's the crazy thing. There are people whose ego will not allow them to make that trade. They would actually rather die. I know that sounds crazy. It sounds a little bit inconceivable. Let me tell you how it's not inconceivable. In what Leif wrote about with the with the situation with a a special operations unit that was going to conduct an operation. And Leif talked to some National Guard guys that were saying, do not do that operation.

• 4:19:16Jocko Willink?

  Leif goes and gives that information to the special operations unit that was gonna go do it. And those guys were like, no, we're going. And those, the, the National Guard guys, they don't know how to handle it. I forget what the exact wording, but we don't need to listen to them. Instead, we're gonna go do this mission. And so we have to keep in mind that ego is so strong. That if you have a guy now, look, Warren Buffett might be a guy who's, you know, led his ego. He's an older guy. Maybe he's got enough life experience to be like, oh, I want to live. That's more important to me. But I guarantee you, there are some individuals that would rather die than admit that they're wrong. They'd rather die than take help from someone else.

• 4:19:59Jocko Willink?

  They'd rather die than ask for help. So that was just one little thing that I thought about as. And unfortunately, you know, I took the note and then I didn't get to, get to bring it up with, with Micah. But that is something to think about. You don't realize how powerful a negative force an ego can be.

• 4:20:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I was thinking the same thing too at that time. There's a movie like kind of new, I think, where it had Kevin Spacey in it. And then before they released it, they replaced him because there was some Kevin Spacey scandal. Where do you know what movie I'm talking about? It's a something about the, I want to say the Gatsby or I don't know.

• 4:20:43Jocko Willink?

  I don't know. I don't know what movie.

• 4:20:45Speaker 02

  But it was basically a famous, rich guy.

• 4:20:47Jocko Willink?

  Wait, is in the movie or that's the movie's about?

• 4:20:49Speaker 02

  Both.

• 4:20:50Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 4:20:50Speaker 02

  Both. Um, it's, oh, no, no. Yeah. So it's about a real, it's like, kind of like a true story or something. I think if I'm not mistaken, I'm only gathering like pieces of it. But it's basically about a, this super duper rich guy. They, I want to say they kidnapped his son or something like that. Or the daughter or something. And they're like, hey, basically like, you know, held him for ransom. They were like, give us this money or whatever. And the guy, and it was no money for this guy. Like it was not that much. And he was in the, I think it was like on the news or something. He's like, oh, so what are you gonna do? He's like, I don't care. I don't care. Like, there's no way he would give money. It was that. It was like that.

• 4:21:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 4:21:28Speaker 02

  That much, you know, where, yeah, I can lose a son, like, whatever. It's like the, it's not like, and I'm totally trying to remember the thing, but it wasn't, it wasn't like, oh, I can't afford it. Or it was, it was more about the principle. Yeah, yeah, like, like, no, no one, no one.

• 4:21:45Jocko Willink?

  Not giving that much money.

• 4:21:45Speaker 02

  No one can do that to me, kind of a thing. Like, I'm not even, meanwhile, like, you know, kind of real important thing, you know, the son or the grandson or something like that. But yeah, I, I thought that same thing too. I said, I get, I get the example, cause it's true.

• 4:21:58Jocko Willink?

  It is true.

• 4:21:58Speaker 02

  It's kind of, it's basically like, like saying, without your health, you have nothing, you know, like, you can't, you can't bring your money to the grave. Like, it's true. It's true. But there are these weirdo little exceptions where it's like, that doesn't matter to some, some people.

• 4:22:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that ego gets, that ego starts to get charged up, man. It's, um, it can be, it can definitely be a scary thing.

• 4:22:18Speaker 02

  So it's like, and you might even said this before, where ego is essentially like a, like a drug that you can, you know, some people like they'll, they'll just take drugs till they die, like.

• 4:22:28Jocko Willink?

  Your ego will kill you. That's an example, right?

• 4:22:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. It's like that thing, you know, people, they'll smoke cigarettes like so much, and they'll be like, hey.

• 4:22:35Jocko Willink?

  The thing that I said was, your ego will love you to death.

• 4:22:40Jocko Willink?

  Your ego will love you to death.

• 4:22:41Speaker 02

  There you go.

• 4:22:42Jocko Willink?

  Just like drugs will love you to, like, drugs love you.

• 4:22:44Speaker 02

  Yep, yep.

• 4:22:45Jocko Willink?

  And I, I took this from J, I think, if I remember this correctly, Jay Adams, who is a old school skateboarder. Barking the dirt, like Dogtown, Z-Boys. And I heard him saying, drugs will love you to death. Because, you know, he had a bunch, he had problems with addiction and went to jail and all this stuff. And I actually met him. And kind of hung out with him a little bit. I was my friend. My friend ran an underground skate downhill skateboarding uh uh event.

• 4:23:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, I like this.

• 4:23:20Jocko Willink?

  Not just one, but like a regular basis.

• 4:23:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:23:23Jocko Willink?

  And and it was like, hey, we're gonna meet at this random mountain that just got freshly paved. Like the state just freshly paved some mountain.

• 4:23:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:23:32Jocko Willink?

  And we're gonna meet out there and do downhill races. Have you ever been on a downhill skateboard?

• 4:23:36Speaker 02

  Uh, I've been on a downhill skateboard, yes.

• 4:23:39Jocko Willink?

  Okay. I was, I said, oh, I'll try what this is like or whatever. I got on a downhill skateboard. I went twenty feet and I was already going so fast, I I jumped off. Because I could see where this was going.

• 4:23:54Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 4:23:54Jocko Willink?

  And it wasn't a good place. I don't have the skill set to be doing this.

• 4:23:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:23:58Jocko Willink?

  Guys race in leathers, like like motorcycle racing leathers. They race in those things. So I kinda, so at any, at one of these underground events.

• 4:24:09Jocko Willink?

  Jay Adams, rest in peace, was there and you know, I got to shake his hand and I didn't get a picture. That's a bad move, actually.

• 4:24:17Speaker 02

  Well, how long ago was it?

• 4:24:21Jocko Willink?

  Ten years?

• 4:24:22Speaker 02

  Ten years ago?

• 4:24:23Jocko Willink?

  Maybe ten years, maybe even a little bit longer ago.

• 4:24:26Speaker 02

  You should have got a picture and then pictures are available at that time. Cause if it's like nineteen ninety one or something.

• 4:24:31Jocko Willink?

  No, no, no, this was, this was recent. This was like, you know, I was a grown man trying to get on a downhill skateboard. Dude, those guys are freaking crazy.

• 4:24:40Speaker 02

  I, I, yes, sir, yes.

• 4:24:41Jocko Willink?

  They are bombing hills.

• 4:24:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:24:43Jocko Willink?

  Bombing hills. You're on a skate, this isn't on the snow or the water.

• 4:24:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:24:47Jocko Willink?

  Like you fall in the snow, look, you can get hurt on the snow for sure.

• 4:24:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:24:49Jocko Willink?

  You can get hurt on the water. You can, notice there's a key word there, can.

• 4:24:53Speaker 02

  Can, yeah.

• 4:24:53Jocko Willink?

  You can get hurt on the water. You can get hurt on the snow. If you fall on a freaking downhill skateboard, you're getting hurt. Now, I, interestingly, they don't. They wear leathers, they know how to fall better, whatever.

• 4:25:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think, I think a lot of times, especially in skateboarding in general, that you just get hurt. And I think those guys are kinda just used to it where, you know, unless you break like your ankle or your wrist or whatever. Or whatever, break whatever. Either hurt or you're injured. So skateboarder is just used to getting hurt. Face it, bro. You get, you get, especially on the downhill, right? Where you gotta bail or whatever and you're sliding.

• 4:25:26Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah. What are you hitting? Something's gonna stop you, you know? So Jay Adams said, drugs will love you to death. And as soon as I heard him say that, I was, ah, yeah. You know what? Also will love you to death? Your own ego. Your own ego will love you to death. So you gotta watch out for it.

• 4:25:42Speaker 02

  Yep. Yeah. Like the, the, the short-term payoff of what it delivers to you is just so, makes you feel so good or safe or secure or whatever.

• 4:25:51Jocko Willink?

  Get that little hitter.

• 4:25:52Speaker 02

  That like, yeah, I mean, while your, your health, your safety, your wellbeing.

• 4:25:57Jocko Willink?

  Gotta be careful of that. Well, hey, uh, this has already been a really long podcast. Appreciate everyone for listening. If you wanna support the podcast, go to jockofuel.com, get some, get some supplements of whatever kind you may need. jockofuel.com. We also have, look, we talked a little bit about China today. China. Talked a little bit about China. We are, we are in an economic war with China. For the time being, could it escalate? Yes, it could. If we lose the economic war, trust me, the escalation is gonna be real bad. So we're in an economic war with China right now. And at Origin USA, we are on the front lines of that war.

• 4:26:37Jocko Willink?

  We are building stuff in America. The things that Micah was talking about today, you know, a sense of purpose. When you, when you're not making anything, you don't have, look, let me rephrase that. When you are making something, producing something, building something, you have a sense of purpose. And when you're building something that's helping rebuild your community, you have an even greater sense of purpose. So if you want to help us rebuild our communities, help us rebuild our country, help provide a sense of purpose to hundreds and one day thousands of hardworking Americans, then check out originusa.com.

• 4:27:21Jocko Willink?

  Get awesome stuff that's made in America.

• 4:27:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that, that concept kinda. Probably goes deeper than maybe we might think at a glance where you know how like you know as technology evolves and all like all this other stuff or whatever you know basically it's just it's an evolution of problems being solved so the smaller problems get solved solved solved just so you can take on bigger problems right and they then we have innovation and you know all this stuff invention like back in the day right you have these simple tools a stick a rock you know and you're making like you're spending five days making this one thing that literally you can buy at 7-11 nowadays right like that kind of stuff but back then it's just how it worked it's like yeah but if you want a fire bro it's gonna take a lot to make that

• 4:28:07Speaker 02

  fire then after you make that fire it provides the warmth and the heat and you can cook for you and your family and all this stuff so it's like this little system that kind of works together but then when you start inventing things that fire part making the fire part becomes really inconvenient like we got to focus on this bigger problem here that making that fire takes like freaking I don't know 35 45 minutes that maybe would help us in this bigger problem if we could just do that in an instant so let's solve that problem in depth or on an indefinite level you know so boom we saw that problem now you got lighters matches whatever right I'm sure it didn't happen in that order but I'm just saying for example but it just keeps going and going and going and going

• 4:28:46Jocko Willink?

  So we got a bunch of problems solved for us now

• 4:28:49Speaker 02

  Yes

• 4:28:49Jocko Willink?

  All kinds of problems

• 4:28:50Speaker 02

  Yes but now the problems become you know what's that hierarchy it's like some hierarchy right

• 4:28:56Jocko Willink?

  Hierarchy of needs

• 4:28:56Speaker 02

  So now technology kind of like exploded so fast so now it ended us up on that that higher part of the hierarchy or the needs right but technology has it right now it's not good enough to solve those problems so now you got people depressed or whatever is what I'm saying so now yeah if you we can infuse little little scent sprinkles of senses of purpose into all of our lives really I think that's gonna be the beginning of the the solution to our problems

• 4:29:27Jocko Willink?

  Awakening

• 4:29:27Speaker 02

  Yeah but it was just kind of like how Mike was saying where you kind of got to go down to the the baseline a little bit to explore like where can I infuse some of the purpose in that baseline then your life adjusts as a whole will be more

• 4:29:42Speaker 02

  More beneficial, more fulfilling, or whatever.

• 4:29:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I think fulfilling is the word.

• 4:29:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, like you'll you'll feel more purpose like just in your day to day, you know? Just how it works, but or I think it works like that.

• 4:29:52Jocko Willink?

  Check. So, originusa.com, cool, awesome to support. Get it, get whatever you need there. Also, we got jocko store.com, which Echo made up the name for, very original.

• 4:30:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:30:03Jocko Willink?

  Cause we have a store.

• 4:30:04Speaker 02

  No, I think I I accepted the name for. I think you.

• 4:30:08Jocko Willink?

  Did I name it?

• 4:30:09Speaker 02

  Literally made it up. Ah, you know what? Actually, now that you mention it.

• 4:30:12Jocko Willink?

  You actually said to me like, hey, you know, I'm gonna start us a store. And I was like, oh, what's it gonna be called? I didn't think I asked that. It was probably like three days later. You're like, hey, I set up the store. Okay, cool.

• 4:30:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:30:23Jocko Willink?

  You like, well, look at the website. And I go, okay, cool. What's the website? And you're like, a jocko store.

• 4:30:27Speaker 02

  You know, it's funny, like, I'm remembering it, and you're correct. Exactly right.

• 4:30:31Jocko Willink?

  Cause I don't, you could tell me anything right now, and I'd believe you. If you're like, no, you imposed it on me, or no, you said, you know, your idea is dumb, or you you said, you know, Jaco, you wanted to name the store something lame, and then I came up, I would believe whatever you said.

• 4:30:45Speaker 02

  Yes, sir.

• 4:30:46Jocko Willink?

  Cause I remember it.

• 4:30:46Speaker 02

  I am remembering it now. And it's weird because it's not like I was like, hey, what's the best kind of name for this or that, or you know, to make this shit? It was just like, it was just kind of like a foregone conclusion. Like, I didn't even really think of it. I was like, oh, let's just do the thing. It's just how, you know, Jocko Podcast, so we gotta have a store, so Jaco Store. Nonetheless, on Jaco Store, you can get your apparel, shirts, hats, hoodies. Good stuff if you want to represent on this path that we're on.

• 4:31:16Jocko Willink?

  Subscribe to the podcast, subscribe to our YouTube channel, all that stuff. We appreciate it. Check out, check out jocko underground.com. Look, there's a lot of influential things going on out there in the world. People are getting banned, whatever. Not whatever, really.

• 4:31:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, straight up.

• 4:31:30Jocko Willink?

  Some of us got shadow banned. Did you get shadow banned?

• 4:31:33Speaker 02

  I don't know. I I don't know. It's kind of like, there are people that I follow that I know when they're shadow banned, because I'm like, you know how you kind of miss it? Like, you're like, oh, I haven't heard from this person when they're not posting, and they're banned, and you even try to look them up, and their their name, that's the thing.

• 4:31:47Jocko Willink?

  That's the video that someone sent me, was they're searching for my name, and it's not up there.

• 4:31:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:31:52Jocko Willink?

  Look, we don't know what's gonna happen. We don't know who's in control of these platforms. They seem to be being okay sometimes, but sometimes we're getting shadow banned. So go to jocko underground.com if you want to help us out on that.

• 4:32:04Jocko Willink?

  Psychological warfare, you know the deal on that. Flipside Canvas, Dakota Meyer got some cool stuff to hang on your wall. I've written a bunch of books. If you want to check them out, there's some information in them that could help you. Especially the kids books, man. Get the kids some books and also have a leadership consulting company. Go to ashlonfront.com if you want some details on that. Check out our, our online training academy. Our online training academy, extremeownership.com. Putting all kinds of effort. The lessons that, the lessons that we learned are so helpful. We, and this is what we hear all day long, every day. I get emails. I get handwritten letters. We get updates.

• 4:32:46Jocko Willink?

  Utilizing the skills that we brought back, the leadership skills, the life skills. If you want to get in the game, go to extremeownership.com and check it out.

• 4:32:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's funny that, that academy, because you, you have it under Echelon Front, you know, with, you know, and I always looked at it or kind of imagined it as essentially, oh, this is what you, you know, if you work in, or if you manage a team, you're a boss or something like that. Oh yeah, perfect, freaking perfect, really. But when you kind of look into it and you kind of go on there and stuff, this is really what it is. Where it's like, okay, yeah, sure. I listen to Jaco, you know, sometimes involuntarily, against my will, whatever. But let's say voluntarily, I listen to Jaco and you know what? He has some good advice, you know? And actually, if I'm going to tell the truth here, where if I listen to, and by the way, you kind of choose what you put in your head and what you listen to, right? So we choose to listen to you most of the time.

• 4:33:42Speaker 02

  So now Jaco, with all this advice or whatever, he actually has an online academy, like to train you? That's literally what it is.

• 4:33:51Jocko Willink?

  It is, yes.

• 4:33:52Speaker 02

  Like, okay, so I'll, and I kind of took it for granted where I can ask you questions, like when I see you. It's easy. I can literally call you up if you answer.

• 4:34:00Jocko Willink?

  You've asked me a lot of questions over the years.

• 4:34:02Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 4:34:02Jocko Willink?

  If you think about it, and now I'm not, I'm not talking about questions about how to do a Camira, which you have asked me. But I'm talking, you come in with a legitimate scenario, business scenario, family scenario.

• 4:34:13Speaker 02

  I need advice, straight up.

• 4:34:14Jocko Willink?

  Straight up.

• 4:34:15Speaker 02

  Just the other, last, last time I saw you, I asked, I asked you, what do you think about this? I'm thinking about this or this, and I need. Like straight up legitimately need advice from you right now.

• 4:34:22Jocko Willink?

  Did I give you good advice?

• 4:34:23Speaker 02

  Yes, I think so. I'm following it. I'll tell you that.

• 4:34:26Jocko Willink?

  And it's working or not working?

• 4:34:27Speaker 02

  So far, I guess. It was more of a long-term decision-making for a strategy.

• 4:34:32Jocko Willink?

  We're probably thinking it's the right move. Cause you probably weren't thinking, no offense, you may not have been thinking long-term. A lot of us make that mistake. We think short-term.

• 4:34:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:34:43Jocko Willink?

  What plays out?

• 4:34:44Speaker 02

  I was. It's like one of those things where you know how you make this decision to pursue this, it's going to put this other thing on hold for a long time. Or you can pursue the other one and it'll put this one on hold either indefinitely or for a long time. So it's like, which one is it?

• 4:34:59Jocko Willink?

  The advice I gave you is very good, by the way.

• 4:35:00Speaker 02

  I, I agree. And even when you said it, it hit me so quickly that yep, I think you're right.

• 4:35:05Jocko Willink?

  That's a good call. So if you didn't know me, if you weren't, if we didn't hang out, if we weren't doing jujitsu, if we weren't doing the podcast and you had that question. You could go to extremeownership.com and literally ask me and I would give you the same advice.

• 4:35:19Speaker 02

  Exactly right. And that's what I'm saying.

• 4:35:20Jocko Willink?

  Get some more particulars. Maybe your scenario is different. Maybe your area of operations is different, but essentially you would get at least. Now, does this mean I'm going to preach to you that I know a hundred percent? No, but I would help you weigh through the options, which is what I do with you.

• 4:35:31Speaker 02

  Right. Yeah, exactly. And that's exactly what I was going to say. It's, that's exactly what it is, you know, where you, and then of course, you know, you, you have a bunch of other experts in little, little special, specialty elements of life or whatever as well. But yeah, that's what it is. Yeah. You want to, you want to get straight up life advice from Jaco. You want to get straight up online training from Jaco. There it is. Boom. You got it right there.

• 4:35:54Jocko Willink?

  Extremeownership.com. Hey, if you also, if you want to help out service members, active and retired, you want to help out their families, go to Mark Lee's mom. She's got an awesome charity organization called America's Mighty Warriors. You can go to Americas Mighty Warriors.org. She's doing a ton of help, a ton of help that I've seen with my own eyes. My friends have gotten help from her. So it's a great organization. Also, obviously, check out heroesandhorses.org. Micah, in case you couldn't tell, is a freaking awesome guy with an awesome vision. And he's moving forward with that. If you want any more of my torturous tales.

• 4:36:38Jocko Willink?

  Or you need more of Echo's discombobulating disclosures.

• 4:36:45Jocko Willink?

  You can find them on the web. You can find us on the interwebs, on Twitter, on Instagram, on Facebook, Echoes at Echo Charles. I am at Jocko Willink. Does this mean we want you to go in there and waste time freaking getting sucked into the algorithm? No, don't do that. You want to check out, you want to hit us with something, you want to give a shout out? Cool. We appreciate it. You want to get a little information about what we're doing? Cool. Don't get sucked into the algorithm.

• 4:37:15Speaker 02

  The, so listening and I, my brain, mind, and I'm sure a lot of people do the same thing where it does this thing where anytime I listen to like Micah or, you know, any, pretty much anyone's story and you hear those cool little parts of it where it's like, oh man, I need to take away the computer from my kids from now on. You know, it's like you get sucked into a story so much, like it's so, um, what do you call it? Like so engaging that you kind of like, I kind of want to be a bow hunter now, you know, it's like that kind of everyone.

• 4:37:45Jocko Willink?

  Giving John Dudley a call.

• 4:37:47Speaker 02

  That's what I'm saying. When he's talking, I'm like dang, maybe I missed my calling from, you know, for bow hunting.

• 4:37:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Maybe out there in the, in the woods with the, with the grizz.

• 4:37:55Speaker 02

  I literally shot one bow in my life, one time, by the way, and it's pretty recently. But nonetheless, I still had that feeling. See what I'm saying? Cause you see, you get so immersed in like the story or whatever. And he was talking about like the social media and I felt it. I was like, yeah, you're right. Social media is so toxic, but the reality is it can be toxic and it can be very beneficial. Like you, you know, and I'm, you know, you can be in communication with very valuable people for very good reasons.

• 4:38:22Jocko Willink?

  I've gotten, we've probably gotten 30 guests on this podcast, legit awesome guests freaking so stoked from social media.

• 4:38:33Speaker 02

  Oh yeah.

• 4:38:34Jocko Willink?

  So that's definitely, and it's, and it is a legitimate way to communicate with other people. It doesn't mean you have to get in the algorithm. So it's there, we're there and also.

• 4:38:46Jocko Willink?

  Heroes and horses, at Heroes and Horses, you can check out the Instagram, the Facebook, the YouTube, go check out the YouTube, a bunch of the things that, that Micah talked about today, he kept, hey, we made this film, we made that film, go check those things out, they're, they're really cool to watch, I watched them, and, uh, yep, so there we are, Micah, really appreciate you coming down, really appreciate your service in the military and out of the military, and once again, thank you for what you are continuing to do to help out vets, and it's gonna have a huge impact, so thanks, brother, and to our active duty military and our veterans out there,

• 4:39:29Jocko Willink?

  thank you for your service, and remember, you got a lot to offer, even when that layer comes off, even when that layer comes off of the uniform and the military, when that uniform comes off, you still have a ton to offer, so go out, find a mission, find yourself, that's where it starts, and also thanks to our police and law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, Border Patrol, Secret Service, and all first responders, thanks for what you do, and remember, just like the military, what you do is not necessarily

• 4:40:07Jocko Willink?

  who you are, you have more than your uniform, so remember that, and to everybody else, let's follow the words we heard today quoted from Micah, from Alexander the Great, who said, "Bury me with my hands out of the ground so the world can see that I left it with nothing."

• 4:40:37Jocko Willink?

  Let's leave it all in the field, by going out there every day, and getting after it,

• 4:40:46Jocko Willink?

  and until next time, Zeko and Jaco, out.