Jocko Underground: If You're a High Performer, You Might Still Be Holding Yourself Back.

>Join Jocko Underground Full Episodes< https://app.redcircle.com/shows/64a89f88-a245-4098-8d8d-496325ec4f74/exclusive-content 00:00 – Dealing With a High-Performing Employee's Ego 11:41 – When Ego Gets You Fired 15:54 – Can You Become a Police Officer With a Physical Disability? 24:49 – Building Trust When You're Only the Leader for One Shift 30:52 – Echo's Advice for Breaking Into Filmmaking and Video Production 39:57 – Preparing for BUD/S and Navy SEAL Training Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is the Jocko Underground Podcast, number 235. Sitting here with Echo Charles. We have some questions from the frontline, from the troopers, from the trenches. And we will provide answers if we can. And if not, we will at least provide some courses of action that you can follow to navigate whatever scenario you're going through.

• 0:20Speaker 01

  It's true, in life, in business and in life. Okay, first question, I manage a rock star employee whose ego and emotional reactions may be holding him back. Recently, he worked hard on a project and got canceled. And that got canceled and became visibly frustrated. Another time, a leader requested revisions to his analysis and he shut down. I've explained that changing priorities, setbacks, and miscommunications are part of teamwork. I consistently praise his performance, but worry his reactions will limit his growth. How do I address his ego without triggering the exact emotional response I'm trying to correct?

• 1:03Speaker 01

  How do I help him detach, accept setbacks, and become more resilient?

• 1:10Speaker 00

  Okay, so first of all, let me set some expectations out of the gate. People take a long time to change. Now, they can sometimes occasionally be changed by a traumatic event. They get fired. Now, they might not change in a good way, by the way. They get fired, they get dumped, they have some catastrophic thing happen to them that they can change. Like someone that's an alcoholic might get in a car accident, DUI, and stop drinking, right? Like a rat, like something like that can happen. But most of the time, even the drunk person that gets a DUI and gets in an accident, most of the time, they still drink. They keep drinking.

• 1:53Speaker 00

  So I just want to set the expectations that, you know, the way that people's minds are formed, they're difficult to change, which is, I'm not trying to say that we don't have, we can't be manipulated, because we certainly can. But it's different for me to get to change your beliefs than it is to me, for me to change the way you perceive yourself and the way you behave. So I gotta lay that out there. I had a new guy one time in one of my platoons, and he was a loud mouth.

• 2:32Speaker 00

  And we did everything to make him be quiet, to make him just not be so loud all the time, always have a, always run in his mouth about something. Good guy, too, not a bad guy. This is just like he had a personality thing. And we did everything. We tried ostracizing him, we tried bringing him into the fold, we tried beating him up, we tried physical violence, we tried, you know, positive reinforcement. We did all the different things. The dude never changed. He was always just like that. He couldn't, he could not restrain himself. So, and I was using every methodology that I know of. And look, did he make some progress over the decade that he was in the teams? Yeah, he did. But fundamentally, he was still the same dude.

• 3:17Speaker 00

  So, very difficult. How can we do it? Over time, we've got to build relationships with people, trust, listen, respect, influence, and care. We got to give those things to people, so we build good relationships, so we listen to them, so they listen to us, we treat them with respect, so they treat us with respect, we allow them to influence us, so they allow us to influence them, we tell them, we show them that we care about them. That's what we're doing. So eventually, eventually, hopefully, you get to a point where you can have an honest debrief with someone, which by the way, is very, very difficult to get to a point where you can have an honest debrief with someone. And even then, you got to be careful. Even then, it's better off using some kind of an indirect approach and asking some earnest questions like, hey, man, hey, Echo, when you were in that meeting, like, and you were

• 4:01Speaker 00

  kind of berating people, like, what do you think that sounded like? When you were, when you were talking to Fred, what do you think that sounded like? Do you think that, do you think that helps, like, the mission? Or, you know, hey, Echo, when you were, when you were kind of raising your voice, like, how do you think that landed with the team? Like, being able to have some of those, being able to ask some earnest questions, you already have to have an established relationship that's strong, because otherwise, I don't care how it landed with the team, the team needs to get on board with what, you know, you'll just get that.

• 4:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:35Speaker 00

  Over time, hopefully, you'll get close enough that you can increase directness a little bit if needed. Usually isn't needed, by the way. Usually isn't needed. If you have a really good relationship. I shouldn't say usually isn't needed. Usually people pick up on it. But even that is a strong statement. A lot of times, I've been writing people's face with some indirect stuff. I'm thinking, wow, I hope they don't, I hope they don't overreact to what I'm about to indirectly ask, and it'll just go right over their head. You know what I mean? Like, hey, how do you think that landed with the team? Oh, that's not really my concern. You know, like, you get into these modes where you're like, okay, this person has no

• 5:19Speaker 00

  idea that this indirect approach that I'm taking is not landing at all. And then, then you start to have to figure out what the ROI is between me escalating the directness with Echo and what it does to our relationship. Because if I'm like, dude, you come across like an asshole, and you're like, what are you, who are you calling asshole? You don't even know what it's, and all of a sudden, I can't even say anything else. You know, we just, I just sent back our relationship by two years. I might have been six months away from you listening to me, and now I'm two years back. Now I'm, now I'm two years and six months back. So you got to figure out what the ROI is on being able to be direct with people.

• 5:58Speaker 00

  And how that works out, the best possible, the best tool for people to change their behavior is when they see it, when they identify it themselves. And what we can do, what the best thing for us to do is help them, guide them to seeing it, not, not punching them in the face with it, but setting up scenarios where they start to see what it is, how they, how they appear, what, how other people perceive them. That's kind of the best way to go about this, to just continue to, to focus on the relationship.

• 6:41Speaker 00

  So as you build the relationship, and this individual starts to listen to you more, and you can say, listen, man, you're doing awesome, but as I look at you getting promoted, there's some shortfalls, man. What do you mean there's shortfalls? Well, you know, like, we ran a 360 survey, and let me show you what the numbers look like for what people perceive you as, you know? So maybe we do a 360 survey, so they can see some of this stuff. And again, you got to be cautious with that. Of course, these people are idiots, I'm the best freaking salesperson, I'm the best employee we got. When you look at the numbers, of course, they're all going to be jealous and say negative stuff. That's how crazy people are. That's how crazy people are. People with big egos, very difficult to get through that ego, because they're so insecure about something in their soul.

• 7:25Speaker 00

  So I have to give you a course of action. I am giving you the negatives, it's very difficult to change someone. The course of action is you continue to build a relationship with someone, you prioritize that. And over time, hopefully, you can get to a point where you have some level of influence, but it is not easy to get an egotistical, rock star person to recognize their own shortfalls and make corrective behaviors, make, take corrective measures with their behaviors. So it's a challenge. And by the way, just so you know, these people exist in all kinds, in everywhere, they exist everywhere, never mind, they exist everywhere.

• 8:08Speaker 00

  And the, what you end up doing is you have to do, you have to understand the terrain, the human terrain, and how can you mitigate his negative impact on other people? How can you capitalize on the fact that he's got a big ego? How can you make sure he doesn't rub other people the wrong way? Don't put him in charge of things that, you know, he's going to have a big, a big, a huge amount of interaction with other people, and his ego is going to really cause problems? Like, what can you do as a leader to, you know, you know, you get a guitar. There's different guitars, bro, you know, not every guitar is perfect. Jack White, you know who Jack White is?

• 8:42Speaker 01

  Jack White.

• 8:43Speaker 00

  Or Billy Corbin, Corbin. He has a guitar that makes like a weird noise. And same with Jack White. Weird, like, weird electrical noises from some, some malfunction of the guitar. And you can hear them on songs. But they take that and utilize it, make it positive. So that's what we're doing as leaders most of the time. Hey, over time, can you maybe work on that fretboard, and you can get that buzz to go away from the guitar, and you end up with a better sounding guitar? Yeah, it's going to take a long time, got to have a lot of knowledge. There's some risk, by the way, you might, you might ruin the guitar, because now you're pulling it apart and bending the neck. So you might break it. Or do you just learn, okay, it's going to make a little noise right there, I'm going

• 9:27Speaker 00

  to learn how to use that tone for, fit it in the song? So that's what we're doing, man. I wish I had some like, oh, you know, this person like that. Look, are, do I talk about the fact that, hey, if you've got someone with a big ego, you can put them in charge of something that's like, slightly outside of their capability, and then they're going to have to ask for help, or they're going to get humbled by the situation? Yeah, those are all procedures that I have literally used before. But this is, when you get to this extreme case, the rock star, big giant ego, big emotional reactions, this is a, this is a prototypical human that we know, we know these guys, very difficult to change. Very, I, you know, in Extreme Ownership, I wrote about the two guys that got fired from a task unit?

• 10:11Speaker 00

  One was a task unit commander, one was a platoon commander. They both got fired because they couldn't get along, even after the commanding officer was like, hey, listen, you guys have to work together, I'm not getting rid of either one of you, you have to work together. Figured out over the weekend, they came in over the weekend, said, no, I can't work with this guy, nope, I can't work with this guy. The commanding officer fired them both. I went, I knew both of them, I liked both of them, both good guys. I went to one of them afterwards, I was like, bro, what happened? He's like, yeah, that guy, which I couldn't work with him. And I was like, you got fired.

• 10:41Speaker 00

  You know what I mean? Like you got fired from a SEAL platoon.

• 10:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:44Speaker 00

  You know what I mean? Like that's terrible. There's no, there's no, there's zero upside. That's, that's the most awful. You have the opportunity, the best job in the world to be a SEAL platoon commander. And you got fired and you're not like, oh, I just totally screwed up. No, no, it's like, no, I couldn't work with that guy. That's crazy talk. What was the guy doing? Like molesting you? Like, you know what I mean? Like what's happening that you can't figure out a way? This is another grown man. Another grown SEAL and you say, hey dude, I got some issues with the, the way you're interacting with me. Let's talk about it. There's a million ways to handle this. It's not like a, hey, I can't work with you anymore. No, you figured it out. But here, here, I'm talking about grown men and neither one of them could say, you know what?

• 11:27Speaker 00

  You're right. It's on me. I'll own this. I'll do a better job of building this relationship. Cool. We're going forward. We carry on with our career. Nope. You're both fired. Yep. That's how it is. So.

• 11:38Speaker 01

  Where do you go when you're fired from a SEAL platoon?

• 11:41Speaker 00

  It depends on what you're getting fired for.

• 11:43Speaker 01

  Where did these guys?

• 11:44Speaker 00

  That particular individual, the, the guy that I talked to, he ended up reloading and doing another platoon as a platoon commander. And was successful.

• 11:52Speaker 01

  What do you mean reloading?

• 11:53Speaker 00

  Uh, just, he got kicked out of one platoon and then got put into another platoon. Had to go through the workup.

• 11:58Speaker 01

  So he's still a Navy SEAL?

• 11:59Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 12:00Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 12:00Speaker 00

  Yeah. And the, the boss that got fired, I think he, he kind of, I think he kind of was already moving in a direction where he was going to go into the civilian sector. And I think that's what he did. Yeah. So he just did a little earlier.

• 12:13Speaker 01

  You ever watched the movie Training Day?

• 12:15Speaker 00

  I have, but I don't know it as intimately as you do.

• 12:18Speaker 01

  That's too bad. Um, there he, so basically he manipulates this new guy. Basically.

• 12:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:24Speaker 01

  Into, at the end of the day, doing some corrupt stuff.

• 12:27Speaker 00

  Right.

• 12:27Speaker 01

  Um, but the way he would manipulate them was actually like, if you do it for good purposes, it's more leadership than it is manipulation. But basically he would, anytime he wanted, he'd use some other stuff too. But this one specific tactic was anytime he either did something good or wanted him to do something good for his own interest. Anytime he did something good or wanted him to do something good, he would hype him up. And kind of paint this picture of the future, this golden future, you know? Like he'd tell him like, you got the magic eye and like, you want my job? You got it. You know, like this kind of stuff. Like you are special.

• 13:03Speaker 01

  Big time. So he would do that. You could see, you know, in the movie, they do a really good, that's a really good movie by the way.

• 13:08Speaker 00

  Who directed that movie?

• 13:09Speaker 01

  Uh, Fuqua, Antoine Fuqua.

• 13:11Speaker 00

  Oh yeah. He does Terminal List.

• 13:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yep. That's my man right there. Um, so he, uh.

• 13:17Speaker 00

  Do you want to meet him?

• 13:18Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 13:18Speaker 00

  I bet we can hook that up.

• 13:19Speaker 01

  Oh, bro.

• 13:20Speaker 00

  Talk to Jack Carr, talk to CP.

• 13:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:23Speaker 00

  Make it happen.

• 13:23Speaker 01

  Oh yeah. He does good work. Really good. Um, so you could see it too, in the movie where, you know, Jake is the guy's name, the new guy. And you could see him like, you know, yeah, you know? I remember thinking, bro, this is, it's so well done. Cause you feel it even. I was like, bro, this guy's giving me the props and painting this golden future. You see what I'm saying? So with these guys who are kind of, you know, they're standout guys. See what I'm saying? So they're going to believe that right off the bat. You know, when you say, hey, you, you're better than me even, you know? And you could really, you could be running this whole shit. See what I'm saying? And soon, by the way. But let's do this, this, and start with, you know, something small, kind of a thing where like, yeah, I could, I can do that.

• 14:00Speaker 00

  Like small violation to me?

• 14:01Speaker 01

  No, like let's say they're, they're doing something their own, let's say they're, I don't know, freaking too confrontational or whatever. Be like, okay, this is what you're going to do. Here's the, here's the cheat code right here. Don't confront it. You just take it into your mind. You, and we're going to use it later somehow, but don't be confrontational. You let it slide for a little bit. You see what I'm saying? So it's like, hey, I can do that one thing. Meanwhile, he's bolstering himself on the inside because he's going to take over shit. See what I'm saying? So you paint this golden future as a tactic. And then it'll just, it's a self fulfilling prophecy at that point. He's not confrontational after a while. He's not whatever. Cause he's playing that game to fulfill that future. See what I'm saying?

• 14:34Speaker 00

  So is that really what he tells him? Like, hey, don't be so confrontational?

• 14:37Speaker 01

  Oh, no, no, no.

• 14:38Speaker 00

  But is he like, hey man, we can't like go completely by the book on this one. He's doing that kind of thing?

• 14:43Speaker 01

  No, no, no. I'm, I'm sorry. I switched it over to this guy's question on the, on the ground. So, you know, cause the guys, you know, whether it be confrontational or emotional, whatever. Oh, no, no. In the movie, he's just saying like, he's doing small corrupt things. And then he's saying, no, no, no. This is like, you didn't know this. This is how it is in here. This is how we do it. And this is why you got the golden eye. You could, bro, I see you just, I see you just running these guys, you know, like all this stuff. So every like little, small corrupt like thing he'd do, he'd kind of put this, this wave, this like, uh, what do you call this? Smoke and mirrors kind of a thing.

• 15:15Speaker 00

  Does it, does it, does the movie chronologically take place in literally one day? So that is a little excerpt of what we are doing on the Jocko Underground Podcast. So if you want to continue to listen,

• 15:31Speaker 00

  go to jacood underground.com and subscribe. And we're doing this, we're doing this to mitigate our reliance on external platforms. So we are not subject to their control. And we are doing this so that we can support the Jocko Podcast, which will remain as is free for all, as long as we can keep it that way. But we, but we are doing this so we don't have to be under the control of sponsors. And we're doing it so we can give you

• 16:03Speaker 00

  more control, more interaction, more direct connections, better communications with us. And to do that, we are, we're building a website right now where we'll be able to utilize to strengthen this legion of troopers that are in the game with us. So thank you. It's jacood underground.com. It costs $8.18 a month. And if you can't afford to support us, we can still support you. Just email assistance@jacood underground.com and we'll get you taken care of. Until then, we will see you mobilized underground.