561: The Art Of Command. Action, Initiative, and Judgement.

>Join Jocko Underground Full Episodes< https://app.redcircle.com/shows/64a89f88-a245-4098-8d8d-496325ec4f74/exclusive-content Breaking down General Melvin Zais’s 1977 speech Leadership and the Art of Command, exploring action, initiative, delegation, discipline, judgment, and the realities of leading people. After a lifetime of combat and command, Zais ultimately reduces effective leadership to one essential principle: you must care about your people. 00:00 – General Melvin Zais: A Lifetime of Leadership 02:16 – Leadership Defies Definition 08:24 – Stop Talking. Take Action. 17:36 – The Basics of Good Leadership 24:59 – The “It Factor,” Luck, and Creating Opportunity 32:30 – Leadership Is Getting Others to Perform 44:40 – Be FOR Something, Not Against Everything 50:02 – You Must Care 52:40 – What Caring Actually Looks Like 59:30 – You Have to Actually Like Your People 1:03:21 – Discipline Without Breaking People 1:05:46 – Finding the Line 1:08:12 – Caring Is in Your Own Best Interest 1:09:34 – Taking Care of Your People Means Pushing Them Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 561 with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening Echo. Good evening. So, General Melvin Zeiss was born May of 1916 in Fall River, Massachusetts, graduated from the University of New Hampshire in 1937. He spent some time in the reserves after doing the ROTC program, got his commission, and then he was brought into active duty. Guess what? World War II, WWII.

• 0:28Jocko Willink?

  Immediately volunteered for a parachute trooper unit, assigned to the 501st Parachute Infantry Regiment. Also spent time at the 517th Parachute Infantry Regiment, as we know, very fond of the, of the parachute infantry regiments. Of course, he fought in Italy, Southern France, Battle of the Bulge, and then the Korean War. He served as a military advisor to a Turkish Brigade, and then in Vietnam, he was a commanding general of the 101st. Also the commanding general of the 24th Corps in Vietnam. So this guy had a bunch of very high ranking

• 1:10Jocko Willink?

  military leadership positions, but started off on the front and a bunch of time in combat. He eventually was promoted to four-star general, appointed to the Commander Allied Land Forces Southeastern Europe, which is, there's no war going on at that time. So it's a cool position, but it's not, you know, a combat scenario. He's the recipient of four Army Distinguished Service Medals, two Silver Stars, three Legions of Merit, two distinguished flying crosses, Bronze Star, and Purple Heart. So he saw a lot, he learned a lot, and he passed some of these lessons on about a year after he retired.

• 1:49Jocko Willink?

  He retired in 1976. In 1977, he made a speech, and I think it's something that we can all learn a little from. So, let's get into the speech. The speech is called Leadership and the Art of Command, once again by General Melvin Zeiss, United States Army. Here we go. March 1977. "I have devoted two-thirds of my life to the study of leadership and the art of command, either by observation, experience, or reading. I have, as a consequence, developed some thoughts, some prejudices, and a variety of interesting quotes, and an absolute conviction that leadership defies definition." Interesting.

• 2:29Jocko Willink?

  "One can define what is wanted, but exactly how to do it and what characteristics are essential is the $64 question." Now, this is 1977. Maybe he did mean $64 million question, but he says $64 question. "Some people are born leaders, others are developed leaders, and a few are nothing until pressures are imposed on them, which bring forth amazing demonstrations of leadership." So, some people are born into it, some people developed into it, some people just get put in the moment and they rise to the occasion.

• 3:06Jocko Willink?

  However, "The most disappointing are those who seem to have all the accepted qualifications until the pressure comes, and then they fold."

• 3:19Jocko Willink?

  This is a, that's such a good tie-in to the, the military incompetence. You know, these people that have, they look squared away, and they kind of act squared away, especially when nothing bad is happening, but when the pressure comes, they just freak out. Seen that quite a few times in my life. "There is a cult of leadership study which is thriving today because its growth is fertilized by government research dollars. These are the behavioral scientists who would tabulate traits, mannerisms, characteristics, habits, morals, physical attributes, and lifestyles.

• 3:56Jocko Willink?

  They convert these data from which, from their witches brew to bars, graphs, curves, models, and matrices in the most scientific manner, and then peddle their conclusions to the government, the business world, and to each other."

• 4:14Jocko Willink?

  "It is like so many of my golfing friends who are suffering from paralysis of analysis. The pitfalls, or potential pitfalls, associated with this scientific and ordered approach are captured well in this excerpt from Edmund Fuller's review of James McGregor Burns' recent book, Leadership." So, a guy named James McGregor Burns wrote a book called Leadership, and here's a review of it, and it's a pretty harsh review.

• 4:47Jocko Willink?

  So, he says, this reviewer says, "Leadership is one of the most observed and least understood phenomenon on earth. So says Pulitzer Prize and National Book Award-winning historian/biographer James McGregor Burns at the outset of a large ambitious work, Leadership. It is commonly remarked these days as an expression of frustration that the world is critically short of leadership, the views of its present leaders to this contrary notwithstanding. Thus, thus this formidable work seemed timely and I approached it with great expectation." So this guy wrote in this review, he's like, "Hey man, we need leadership. We've got some dearth of leadership in the world."

• 5:30Jocko Willink?

  He, this guy, this historian and biographer, award-winning, Pulitzer Prize-winning, wrote this book, so he's ready for this. He's ready to hear what this guy has to say. "In the upshot, I am sorely disappointed. Having mulled over many things that Professor Burns puts before us, interesting as some are, I do not feel I have emerged with sufficient illumination, but have come, come out through the same door by which I entered." So it didn't get anywhere. "Professor Burns has demonstrated in several books that he can write excellent English. He has elected not to do so here."

• 6:06Jocko Willink?

  I gotta say though, it is kind of, you know, when you're sitting, you and your critic, and you just get to sit on the sidelines and just throw darts. Yeah, fully. It's kind of a bummer, but that's what we're doing.

• 6:17Jocko Willink?

  "A few of his opening and closing pages and narrative or biographical passages are clear and informative, but the bulk of the work is written in jargon derived from sociology and psychology. An early example, not necessarily the worst, and here it is, quote, "Power over other persons, we have noted, is exercised when potential power wielders motivated to achieve certain goals of their own, marshal in their power base, resources, economic, military, institutional, or skill that enable them to influence the behavior of respondents by activating motives of respondents relevant to those resources and to those goals.

• 6:58Jocko Willink?

  Page after, end quote, page after page of such prose is brain damaging.

• 7:06Jocko Willink?

  Professor Burns has addressed his book to the people from whom his central ideas are drawn. It is no accident that the men quoted on the back of the jacket offer such accolades as a stunning book, a masterwork. They are all academics, sociologists, psychologists who talk to each other in their own jargon, as seen in numerous quotations from within the book." So, there's a pretty rough review. And then he continues with the speech. "One of my sons will soon complete such a graduate course in preparation for an assignment to the leadership department at West Point. I am certain that he will learn a great deal. I am not as sure that having acquired an advanced degree in behavioral science,

• 7:50Jocko Willink?

  he will ipso facto become a better leader.

• 7:55Jocko Willink?

  Later, I will list some approaches which seem to help me the most, and even as I do so, I will be well aware of the previous expressed reservations about one's ability to define and describe this elusive quality of leadership. Let me start out with some interesting definitions by others, and thus set up some straw men that we can later dignify or demolish." He's got right up your alley here with the straw man.

• 8:24Jocko Willink?

  "The first is a definition of 'he who would command' by Charles Burnap. I've carried this definition around with me for many years. I've read it often. It has helped me. It may or may not help you. For a definition is the one, is one thing, and how to live up to the definition is another." In essence, that is the catch-22. So you might know the definition, but how do you live up to it? And here's the, here's the, uh, the definition that he's talking about. Quote, "Decision of character is one of the most important of human qualities. Philosophically considered, speculation, knowledge is not the chief end of a man. It is action.

• 9:06Jocko Willink?

  We may, by a fine education, learn to think most correctly and talk most beautifully, but when it comes to action, if we are weak and undecided, we are of all things the most wretched.

• 9:20Jocko Willink?

  All mankind feel themselves weak, beset with infirmities and surrounded with dangers. The acutest minds are the most conscious of difficulties and dangers. They want, above all things, a leader with that boldness, decision, and energy which with shame they do not find in themselves.

• 9:43Jocko Willink?

  'Give us the man,' shout the multitude, 'who will step forward and take the responsibility.'"

• 9:52Jocko Willink?

  "He is instantly the idol, the lord, and the king among men. He then who would command among his fellows must first excel them more in energy of will than in their power of intellect." End quote. And again, that's from a book called He Who Would Command by Charles Burnap. And this, you know, Zeiss, or sorry, Zeiss says that, you know, that's kind of a definition that he carried around. Better take ownership of what's going on. You better take responsibility. You better step up.

• 10:24Jocko Willink?

  It's not about thinking. It's not about talking. It's about doing. Can't send out little well-crafted emails and think that now everyone's gonna get, "Oh, cool. I'm inspired by this. Let's go." Like, no, you gotta do stuff. You gotta take action.

• 10:39Jocko Willink?

  Here's another one by S L A Marshall. We of course, we have reservations about S L A Marshall, but you know, we don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. In his book, The Officer as a Leader, and he says, quote, "Any man, whatever be his rank, can command who has the courage to try and the brain to see clearly what other men miss."

• 11:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's kind of a big deal. You know, there's like the whole, you know, the grind culture?

• 11:04Speaker 01

  Grind, yeah.

• 11:05Jocko Willink?

  You know, grind hustle culture, which is like, hey, if you just work hard, like, of course, you're gonna, you're gonna be successful. And that's not necessarily true, because you can work really hard and you cannot be successful. You know, before, what was that? What were we talking about before? Oh, yeah. I was talking before we hit record, I was talking about a song by The Black Keys. And it says, "You know me, I have plans, but they just disappear to the back of my mind." And I was talking about that has, uh, just catches so many people, like they have good plans, but then they're not really gonna do anything with those plans.

• 11:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:42Jocko Willink?

  And so the, uh, even having plans is, is a little bit rewarding for people.

• 11:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, fully.

• 11:47Jocko Willink?

  You know, I think that's why people buy lottery tickets. They can spend that day. That's why people look at Zillow.

• 11:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's real.

• 11:56Jocko Willink?

  You know what I'm saying? They're like, oh, well, you know, hey, uh, you know, come up with a plan, right? That's why people write down plans, you know, they write down, I'm gonna write this down. They tell people. There's that, there's that weird dichotomy about, you know, if, if you want to do something, you should tell everyone that you're gonna do it. Cause then you're, oh, you're putting yourself out there and, and, and you're exposing yourself to ridicule if you don't actually do it. And that is a, that is a technique, but there's also

• 12:26Jocko Willink?

  a reality that when you tell people, you get a little dopamine hit and that's kind of good enough.

• 12:30Speaker 01

  Right, right. Satisfaction.

• 12:31Jocko Willink?

  So if you're talking about, like, I'm gonna write a book.

• 12:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:34Jocko Willink?

  And you're talking like, hey, guys, I'm writing a book, you know? I've, I've known people that have quote unquote, been writing books for really long times.

• 12:41Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 12:42Jocko Willink?

  You know?

• 12:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:43Jocko Willink?

  Years and years and years and years.

• 12:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:45Jocko Willink?

  And actually, the writing of a book doesn't, look, it can take long, you're doing research or whatever you're doing, but it's not, it shouldn't be decades. You know what I'm saying?

• 12:53Speaker 01

  I understand.

• 12:55Jocko Willink?

  So

• 12:57Jocko Willink?

  not telling anyone is a methodology too. So do you tell everyone, hey, I'm writing a book? And everyone goes, hell, how's the book coming along? Whoa, you know, I'm still writing it. And you still get the little dopamine hit just from that. Or you shut your mouth and you just do the shit that you're supposed to do.

• 13:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:11Jocko Willink?

  But that, the reason I say this is because even if you are disciplined and you lock in and you write the book, there's absolutely zero guarantee that one single person ever reads that book.

• 13:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:25Jocko Willink?

  Or you lock in and you, you know, learn your guitar and you practice and you're like, all right, I did all the work. I put in all the work and I, and now I'm gonna be a rock star. No, you're not. Well, most likely you're not. Or you, like, you'll hear, like, the, in the Hollywood world, you just gotta keep auditioning, keep auditioning. You gotta keep going. There, you can do that for your entire life, literally. You can, you can die and never, like, maybe get a couple commercials or whatever. But I'm saying, just because you put in the hard work, doesn't mean that it's gonna be successful. I'll tell you what, if you don't put in the work, I can guarantee it's not gonna be successful. So we at least have to put our chips on the table, right? The reason I say this is because he says, "The courage to try."

• 14:09Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 14:10Jocko Willink?

  "But also the brain to see clearly what other people miss." So if you're just trying hard, but you're not really sure a hundred percent like what to actually do, it's not necessarily helpful. You may not find yourself in a leadership position because you're telling people to do dumb shit.

• 14:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, that tends to be how the hustle culture, grind culture, whatever, seems to be like, they kind of, it seems like it anyway, where they focus on the, the, the repetitive, you know, nature of it, rather than the actual progress of it.

• 14:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 14:39Speaker 01

  So, yeah, and I think that's why, I mean, it's obvious now that I'm saying it out loud. I think that's why it gets such a bad rap after a while.

• 14:46Jocko Willink?

  Oh, because people are like, yo, I grinded.

• 14:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, grind every day. And they're like, but bro, like, you're still.

• 14:50Jocko Willink?

  I'm still here.

• 14:53Jocko Willink?

  I'm still in this rough situation.

• 14:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 14:55Jocko Willink?

  But my grind isn't paying off. Your grind isn't guaranteed to pay off. I can guarantee that if you don't grind, you'll get no payoff. No one's gonna come knocking on your door like, oh, I heard you wanna publish a book, or I heard you wanna, you know, build this, or how'd you wanna build this app? We can really help you do that.

• 15:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:11Jocko Willink?

  Although there are people that they'll email you and they'll be like, hey, um, well, at least I get like connections and I'll get a connection from someone that'll say, hey, I really, I'm really impressed with your background. And they'll have some random A I generated, like, I saw that you led, uh, you know, Task Unit Bruiser in the Battle of Ramadi and also now have a leadership consulting company and a clothing, and it'll say this random A I stuff and it'll say, "Have you ever thought about sharing your story? We think it would be a big hit in a book. We could help you write." I haven't ever responded and be like, do a little, a little extra research. But doing that kind of, just doing the grind and doing the grind and doing the grind and you, you think

• 15:54Jocko Willink?

  it's gonna be guaranteed? No, that's not guaranteed. It's guaranteed that no one's gonna come knock on your door and you say, hey, here's the deal that you always wanted. That's not gonna happen. So we at least have to put chips on the table. And that's what I think S L A Marshall here is saying. All right, continuing on with S L A Marshall's quote, "I am quite sure that I have known personally a greater number of emergent combat leaders than any man living." Dude, this dude's really, he's, he's got a big high opinion of himself. But we know that about S L A Marshall. So again, we're not throwing out the baby with the bathwater. "None was a genius or possessed a, of a better than average I Q." Of course, you're not gonna be as smart as Mr. S L A Marshall, right?

• 16:35Jocko Willink?

  "As a type, they are stolid rather than amid imaginative, and it is usually the lack of flair rather than a failure to conform to what is asked of them that denies them promotion or special recognition till their, until their preeminent qualities are proved under fire. Their spirits are fanned by danger. Other men rally to them in emergency because they take positive action." There is the key word. "These clutch hitters are able to fill the void caused by the failure of appointed leadership because they do not mistake the appearance of that position for the reality."

• 17:14Jocko Willink?

  So when it's time to step up, these dudes step up. And that's, that's the end of the quote. Except for putting us down as a stolid and rather unimaginative and, and of average I Q, he says the same thing as does Charles Burnap. He says, "The key word is positive action." "As with Burnap's definition, it is easy to understand what is wanted. The real problem is in determining how to get, how one gets to be that way." Another catch 22. Maybe the Command Sergeant Major Walter Kruger has the answer. In a letter to Army Magazine, he wrote the following, "Some basics for young leaders." Isn't it nice that this stuff's just laid out?

• 17:59Jocko Willink?

  "Some basics for young leaders. There must have been millions of words written on leadership, another thousand pages on motivation and even more on counseling." Bro, he wrote this in 1977. It's exponential now. "All the while, behavioral scientists attempt to penetrate the human psyche to find even more ways of doing what? Getting the job done." "Modern terminology boggles the mind. Directive, non-directive, eclectic, organizational development, organizational effectiveness, synergistic communications, and so on." Have you seen those videos where people are talking in corporate speak on like a call?

• 18:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, those are, those are good.

• 18:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's sales ones too, where they're like, uh, you know, like, sales jargon has like a, and there's like a methodology or whatever that they're teasing. They'll be like, uh, two friends, you know? So it's like, when your sales friend is trying to convince you to go out with them, you know? So they'll be like, hey, do you wanna get some beers or whatever? And they'll be like, no. He goes, let me ask you this. Is it the beers that doesn't want you to, or is it the going out? You know, so like, it's like, oh, okay.

• 19:03Jocko Willink?

  Oh, classic.

• 19:06Jocko Willink?

  Continuing on, "Add priority pressures as what to do first. Short fuse missions, career apprehension, a family with the measles, and an alcoholic squad leader, it gets to be a rather full day after day after day." I would propose, because that's what you're really dealing with. And he's actually got a really cool part that he talks about in this book, which is like what you spend eighty percent of your time doing. I would propose a few, this is still, uh, the Command Sergeant Major Walter Kruger. "I would propose a few things. They don't subvert the new titles, nor are they a panacea for the ne'er do well. They're not brown shoe army either, even, although they have been around a long, long time. They're just statements that do not need explanation.

• 19:51Jocko Willink?

  Listen to your soldiers. Instill pride, never degrade. Set reasonable standards. Never lie to soldiers. Be hard, but be fair. Be as good as your word. Train hard. Your life really depends on it. Keep your soldiers informed. Be honest in all things. Respect all soldiers." That about covers leadership, including all the fancy words. I'm not against any method, but sometimes I, maybe you do too, get confused with all the reinventing and new tools we have. If they do nothing else, they get us thinking about leadership and that's just great.

• 20:31Jocko Willink?

  So, listen to your soldiers and still pride, never degrade. What I, what I love about these old things is you, you hear people, you'll hear people talk about, you know, back in the day, the leadership, you know, you could, you could, you could yell at people and scream at people and you could, everyone, you think, people, people, you know, they used to just snap too. It's like, no, they hated you. They might've done it, right? But people think that the old school leadership was all, all different than it should be. No, and it wasn't. Good leadership looks like good leadership then and now. Dick Winters, classic example compared to, uh, uh, Captain Sobel. That's like, you can just go back to that thing over and over and over again. Wait, it was, you know, it was nineteen forty, nineteen forty-three.

• 21:16Jocko Willink?

  The rank structure was in place. The captain says to do something, they'll do it. No, actually, they rebelled against that guy. They got him fired. You know what I mean? That's what the reality is.

• 21:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're, that, that one that you, you did, it was a while ago. Remember the one I made the video of, uh, you know, you're, you'll give.

• 21:32Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 21:33Speaker 01

  Like even that, if you listen to that whole thing, not just the excerpt on the video, but, um, it talks about like how, yeah, your soldiers need like emotional support, like straight up. But, man, this is like World War Two. I was like, dang, bro.

• 21:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, World War Two, hard dudes. Um, continuing on, "The definition which I find most amusing and yet filled with puckish wisdom is that expressed by General Motion Diane after the Sinai campaign."

• 22:01Jocko Willink?

  He says this, "A leader should be moral. He should not drink heavily, play around with women, be careless in his private affairs, ever but pleasure before, but ever put pleasure before business, or fail to know his people intimately as individuals. So you have a paragon who observes all of these rules, and he is still no leader. In fact, if he is that perfect, leading is the thing at which he is most likely to fail." Interesting.

• 22:34Jocko Willink?

  You, I, I knew leaders like that.

• 22:38Jocko Willink?

  And you know, we've talked about Eagle Scouts before?

• 22:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:40Jocko Willink?

  And how Eagle Scout, a guy asked me on the Underground Podcast, "Should I strive to become an Eagle Scout? Will it help me in my military career?" And I'm like, "Well, it might. If being an Eagle Scout makes, makes you learn some skills, and you're humble, and you've been in a leadership position, and you've learned how to listen to people, yeah, it'd be very helpful, very cool. If it makes you think you're better than people, it's gonna be a disaster." So I've known people that they were, they, they, you could tell that they thought that they were better than everyone else.

• 23:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:07Jocko Willink?

  And it's a problem.

• 23:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:09Jocko Willink?

  It's a real problem.

• 23:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, even that, just the, the mere idea of, um, relatability. Like, if you can't, like, relate to the person at all, you know? It's like, bruh, you don't wanna come to them with your X, Y, Z problem, you know?

• 23:21Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 23:24Jocko Willink?

  The moral here is, "Don't be perfect."

• 23:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:26Jocko Willink?

  Another catch 22.

• 23:29Jocko Willink?

  "Finally, I find the most simplistic quote, 'Designed to tranquilize those who are tired of trying to improve themselves. A man may acquire knowledge, but leadership, like wisdom, is a gift from God.'" Interesting. "When I reflect on leaders whom I have known, I find tall and short, noisy and quiet, extrovert and introvert, intellectual and bore, which reminds me of an efficient, of an efficiency report, which I read when I was serving on a promotion board. The raider said, 'This officer is equally at ease with intellectuals and those in authority.' Another said, 'Smith is not a born leader yet.'"

• 24:15Jocko Willink?

  It is interesting that I've known the same thing. I knew leaders that were tall, short, noisy, quiet, extrovert, introvert, and like, I'm talking good leaders, I've known good leaders with all those different things, and bad leaders with all those different things. You know, just because someone's a dynamic, articulate speaker doesn't mean they're a good leader.

• 24:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:32Jocko Willink?

  Just because someone is quiet and kinda awkward doesn't mean they're a bad leader.

• 24:38Jocko Willink?

  "Smith is not a born leader yet." Kinda cool. Kind of a cool attitude to have.

• 24:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:45Jocko Willink?

  That's a classic dig, too. "This officer is equally at le, at ease with intellectuals and those in authority."

• 24:54Jocko Willink?

  That is, that is awesome. If I was still in the military, I'd use that.

• 25:01Jocko Willink?

  "There seems to be some unknown chemistry which makes a man an exceptional leader." And again, this is what, this is the irrational 10th that I talked about on a podcast prior, the, the T E Lawrence, the, the it factor, all those things. "This applies in other fields of endeavor as well. For example, recently I was listening as Richard Burton, the famous actor, was being interviewed by Barbara Hawar on Who's Who. He offered the view that many actors are as able as he is, but by some strange trick of personality, he has been more successful. If one wants to learn to be successful, this is a strange will of the wisp of advice, and leaves little to emulate except a certain degree of modesty or self-effacement, neither

• 25:45Jocko Willink?

  of which are his long suits. John Ruskin said, 'I fear uniformity. You cannot manufacture great men any more than you can manufacture gold.'" So even what's Richard Burton is like, "Hey, there's a lot of actors that are as good as me. I just got something. I got a little something." Now, part of that could be luck, right? Part of it's like, "Oh, you, you, you know, this person got that role in this particular time." But what's interesting, you hear like, these big actors, if they didn't get that one big role, they got some other big role. You know what I mean? Like, they had something.

• 26:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, the, and that's a, that's, the acting thing is a, is a good example, and even music is like that, too, where the results are so variable, you know? So like, a good actor, like, we even, we know this, where you can grab any successful, like, any of the top successful actors, you could easily find big groups of people who just don't like them, right? They hate on them, they're like, "Oh, I don't like them." They, and they find something wrong with it, or, maybe they're just not their, their flavor. And some people, they're just hating to hate, right? But the, so, acting, music, this kinda stuff, it's like, a lot of the, the fundamental format is one person's performance versus, or on top of, or should I say, mixed with the, kinda, for lack of a better term, the environment.

• 27:06Speaker 01

  So like, if you say, "Okay, you got a good actor, he's, they have a skill of acting." Now, it's like, "Okay, how do they look? How do they, um, you know, how do they present themselves just normally as a human being on top of the, or underneath the character? And then what requirement is there? Like, what movie do they have to play, or what character do they have to play, right? So it's like, okay, you know, like, okay, James Bond, for example, right? James Bond has a many characters or actors that play James Bond, right? So you know how, and they get varying levels of kinda like appreciation, we'll say, right? So like, Sean Connery, everyone loves the Sean Connery, right? But, uh, you know, one of the other guys, Roger, well, actually Roger Moore, I've been like Roger Moore, too. But, you know, some of the newer guys, they'll be like, "Hmm, that guy's not my James Bond,

• 27:51Speaker 01

  you know, I like this guy," you know, kind of a thing, right? So you can get a good actor with, he has good looks or whatever, but he plays like the wrong role, and then they kinda get, like, shunned a little bit, like, there's a word for it, I forget what it is, it's like, actor jail or purgatory, I don't know, some, something like this. But you're right about that, it's bad luck, because it's like, how does this actor with their skills interact with the character, and then interact with the actual movie itself? You see what I'm saying?

• 28:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's what I'm saying, so there's a level of luck in there, right?

• 28:19Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 28:19Jocko Willink?

  But what I'm saying also, in addition to luck, is like, these people that end up, quote unquote, "Making it,"

• 28:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:28Jocko Willink?

  they kept going, and, and then they, quote unquote, "Got lucky," right? Meaning, they had the thing, and they just needed to have an opportunity. And listen, I've been, um, there's like, I got, in my algorithm, I got this freaking world champion, like, beyond world champion Scrabble player.

• 28:47Speaker 01

  Hell, yeah.

• 28:48Jocko Willink?

  I watched like a 20-minute documentary about this dude.

• 28:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 28:51Jocko Willink?

  He's beyond, he's beyond human capability in Scrabble.

• 28:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:57Jocko Willink?

  Like, he, they have computer, whatever, AI that, that will play Scrabble, and they'll run the, the protocol, or run a game that he, he conducted, and they'll run AI, like the smartest computer, and it, it won't be as good as him. And the, the, the question is, like, if the Scrabble didn't exist,

• 29:22Speaker 01

  Right.

• 29:23Jocko Willink?

  what would this dude be doing, right? Like, I mean, he'd probably be good at something, but that's like a weird little skill to have.

• 29:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:32Jocko Willink?

  And luckily, there's an opportunity for him to, to shine in the world.

• 29:37Speaker 01

  And that's, see, how you said shine, like, let's, let's say, uh, shine is kind of a slang term, obviously, but I know what you mean, we know what you mean by shine, like, we'll say, uh, be successful in the world, as you said.

• 29:49Speaker 01

  So what does that look like, right? So that guy, the Scrabble guy?

• 29:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 29:52Speaker 01

  And let's say a good actor, a good performer, whatever, like, they'll still be good.

• 29:57Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 29:57Speaker 01

  They'll be really good at whatever it is that they're good at or whatever, but will they be quote unquote, "Successful"? Will, will they shine in the world? That's where it's kinda that luck, which is kinda the combination between their circumstances and their skill.

• 30:09Jocko Willink?

  Yep. So there's certainly gonna be luck involved.

• 30:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:12Jocko Willink?

  But there's more, there's not, it's more than luck. You gotta have what this dude's saying, what Richard Burton's saying, like, "Hey, you can get lucky." I mean, there's, there's countless people, other end of the spectrum, they get lucky, they score a role.

• 30:25Speaker 01

  Right.

• 30:25Jocko Willink?

  They had the right look, it was right timing or whatever, and then they make one movie, and it's like, "Oh, yeah, that guy wasn't good."

• 30:31Speaker 01

  Right.

• 30:31Jocko Willink?

  So they didn't have it.

• 30:32Speaker 01

  Right.

• 30:32Jocko Willink?

  They got lucky, they didn't have it. So it's more important to have this quality.

• 30:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, so it's like, essentially, you know, the expression, "Make your own luck," right? So basically, what that is, is, I mean, the way I see it, anyway, it's, yeah, you get lucky if you're, luck is basically, if you break it down, luck is basically the, uh, something coming through fruition that's positive, that's very unlikely. That's like luck, right? But if you create as many opportunities as you can by, you know, whether it be preparation, tenacity, um, observing opportunities is good, you know, and learning like that kinda something, yeah, you kinda create your own luck. So yes, when you say, uh, someone who just has it, like, "Oh, I have it," then, yeah, they might fail, and they'll immediately be looking at, "How do I interact with my environment, you know, so I can create, create more luck?"

• 31:17Jocko Willink?

  Create more luck.

• 31:18Speaker 01

  Increase the probability of success.

• 31:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. I'm not trying to discourage anybody, by the way.

• 31:24Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 31:25Jocko Willink?

  Like, we gotta put our chips on the table. Like, you, you have to. What, it must suck to get to be on your deathbed, and you still have all your chips in your pocket, you know what I mean? And you didn't really put in the work to, to, to have the opportunity to get lucky. You know what I'm saying? So get out there and get after it.

• 31:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:44Jocko Willink?

  Continuing on.

• 31:46Jocko Willink?

  "Despite all the conflicting evidence which I have inflicted on you, I do have some advice to offer in certain points, and certain points to make, if you heed them, you may, and I'm cautious to use the qualifying phrase 'may,' advance more rapidly and to a higher grade than your fellow officers, and you may improve your leadership qualities and your ability to command, because leadership potential can be developed." This is something I've been saying for years. You can become a better leader. You might not have all those little natural gifts, you might have some of them, but you can definitely get better. These pearls of wisdom come under the heading of pipe-smoking, pot-bellied, pontificating profundities, and even if you agree with them, you may not be able to or care to place them in effect or practice them.

• 32:31Jocko Willink?

  I like that this dude's like retired after however many 40 years or something in the army, and he still is just like, whatever. Like, yeah, I'm the old pipe-smoking, pot-bellied, pontificating dude, like, I see, I know that I'm talking to you young cadets out there. Okay, here we go through the list.

• 32:48Jocko Willink?

  Leadership is the ability to get other people to do what you want them to do. I add into that for the good of the team of the mission, right? Otherwise, it's just manipulation. If I'm just trying to get Echo to do something that's going to benefit me, that's not really, that's not leadership. That's just manipulation. So I have to add in there what you want them to do for the good of the team, for the good of the mission. How one develops this capability is closer to an art than it is to science. The ability to get others to respond is a primary prerequisite, however, and the lack of this ability explains why some very able, bright, conscientious young men flourish in their youth and then begin a gradual fade out in their middle years.

• 33:30Jocko Willink?

  These are the men who will do everything well as long as the results are dependent on their own efforts. While they are young and their tasks are minor, they are judged solely on their own performance, but as they move up in the hierarchy, they are increasingly required to delegate responsibility and to create in their subordinate a strong desire to do that which has been directed by them. These men are subject to terrible disappointment and often bitterness because they watch as they are passed by contemporaries who in earlier years did not perform as well as they did. So you can be, this is the classic thing where I'm like, oh, you can be a great salesman or you can be a great plumber, but then when you get promoted, you don't do well. It's because you didn't have that skill and you didn't learn that skill. I recommend you learn the skill.

• 34:16Jocko Willink?

  It also explains why some slow starters who suffer from impatience with detail and unwillingness to seek perfection in small matters, but who have the ability to influence others to perform, finally come into their own and advance rapidly. This explains why the class leaders at the service academies, colleges, and even advanced service schools are often not leaders in the field. One should therefore not be surprised to discover that many of our great leaders stood low in their class. The lesson here is obvious. The least you can learn to do is delegate. The ability to inspire others to perform is more difficult.

• 34:57Jocko Willink?

  So at least you can do is learn to delegate, but learning how to inspire others, a little bit more tricky. Next one, a young officer can and should learn by observation and imitation of his admired superiors and by rejection of the modus operandi of those he does not respond to. Often more is to be learned from the latter. I know I learned a lot from these shit birds out there that were in leadership positions over me. I learned what I wasn't going to do. However, human nature is such that we tend to treat others as we have been treated even when we did not like the treatment. And then we justify the action with the rationale of that is how it was for me. This is like, you know, the cycle of child abuse, right?

• 35:42Jocko Willink?

  This is the cycle of I had a crappy leader and who yelled and screamed and that's what we're doing, so I'm going to yell and scream.

• 35:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's, that's prob, and then I don't know, I can't read everybody's mind, but I felt for myself that that's like, that idea is very part, like there's like, they're hidden in little parts of my mind as far as like, you know, my dad used, for example, my dad used to, if he wanted us to, I don't know, hurry up, he'd grab us by the elbow here and squeeze it, like to pull us to where we're supposed to go, like, whatever, like get out of the car, get in the, whatever. And he'd squeeze up and it freaking hurt, but it was effective, you know? Cause you're like, ah, but it freaking hurt and I hate, like I hated it. And I remember thinking how effective that was, you know? Like, I'm not going to necessarily do XYZ or say XYZ to my kids when I have kids, but

• 36:33Speaker 01

  that, I'm keeping that in the tool belt, you know?

• 36:36Jocko Willink?

  Like a good move.

• 36:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, a little bit. And then when I had kids, I was like, bro, that's freaking kind of mean. Only because I had that moment of clarity, you know, kind of a thing, but I, I was prepared. I was ready.

• 36:46Jocko Willink?

  Have you ever used it?

• 36:47Speaker 01

  Never. I, I got to, there was a very specific point, I told you about it offline, that I was like physically harming my kids. I, as of right now, I, I believe that that is, yeah, I'm not doing it physically harm, you know, especially for like compliance stuff, like I did, I don't know. I don't know, I can't think of any circumstance that it's like the move, you know?

• 37:09Jocko Willink?

  Yep. Yep. I agree with you. And by the way, we got, we got asked a question like this on the underground as well. It was like about spanking kids and I looked up, you know, did the, the quote unquote research.

• 37:23Jocko Willink?

  And everything I read was like, no, it's not, it's not helpful.

• 37:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:26Jocko Willink?

  It's not helpful. And I didn't spank my kids either. And, you know, I never, I always felt like if I had to do that, bro, I really like dropped the ball a long time ago. If I gotta inflict pain on my kids.

• 37:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:43Jocko Willink?

  Like, and my kids will tell you, what, I mean, I remember my kids, I actually, on that situation, I was going through the questions for this underground podcast that we made. And it was like, oh, you, do you spank your kids? And I was like, no. And then I, I kind of had to confirm, couldn't really remember, you know? And I went down and asked my kids, I was like, oh, did I, um, did I spank? My wife was there, I said, did I spank you guys? And they're like, no, no. And then they're like, we wish you would have, because the psychological warfare was worth, was worse. Yeah, it was worse. So, you know, meaning I would like shun them and like ostracize them, you know, and make them feel, you know, and again, it made them feel really bad, you know? And so worse than they just thought of spanking, it'd be kind of a little bit of a luxury, dude.

• 38:28Jocko Willink?

  It was like, give me a couple of cracks and call it good. Let's, let's move on, you know, because I would hold that grudge, you know, a little, a little bit crazy.

• 38:35Speaker 01

  I can see it.

• 38:37Jocko Willink?

  And again, I'm not, uh, what's, I'm not, I'm not condoning this type of behavior. It would have been better to be a little bit more, you know, a little bit more, let's address it, let's talk about it, let's see what you were thinking, that kind of thing. But, you know, had to grow up a little bit, my damn self.

• 38:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, but it, but that's correct though, what he's saying where it's like, a lot of people, they don't, because I didn't until I did, but I wasn't thinking about like, wait, is this for real correct? Like, is this the best way to do this as far as I can like figure out or learn about or whatever, you know, kind of thing? So there's a lot of, I, I kind of even wonder now, like, what am I, am I doing stuff that I just figured, just like I always say, like where it's just, bro, that's how it was done. So I'm just going to keep it going. See what I'm saying? But yeah, you gotta kind of be conscious of that kind of stuff.

• 39:20Jocko Willink?

  Check. Next, continue on. That explains some of the very harsh treatment met, meted out in recruit training and bootcamp. It also has general application. For example, most people who brutalize their childrens were themselves beaten, were themselves beaten by their parents. In my career, I was fortunate to serve under only two men whom I considered sadistic or terribly egotistical. I learned a great deal from them. Mostly I had the good fortune to serve under close, serve under and closely observe the conduct of such men as Matthew B. Ridgway, who actually I think we're going to get into on the next podcast, Maxwell D. Taylor, James M. Gavin, Crichton W. Abrams, and many others. I watched these men very closely.

• 40:02Jocko Willink?

  My wife is continually astonished at how much I remember about my former commanders and colleagues. I watch them and I try and learn, which brings me to my next point. Next point is you must adapt to your commander. This is smart. He does not adapt to you. This is an issue on which more officers founder than any other. I know, I think he probably meant to say flounder. It is also the most difficult advice to live up to when faced with a commander who violates your own sense of justice or code of ethics. I will be happy to discuss this further in the next question and answer period. This is the speech, we won't get, we won't get to his question, question, answer, although in this document, there's like little notes that he's made, which is interesting.

• 40:44Jocko Willink?

  My next advice is, this is another, just put this one in the books, man. Don't fight higher headquarters. I know that many of you consider the next higher headquarters as your natural enemy. It requires strong willpower and a level head to keep you cool, but if you will find it counter, but you will find it counterproductive to engage in a running battle with your boss and his staff. Isn't it weird that that's just so obvious when you sit here and read it? But it's such a reality that he says that most people consider their boss in the upper echelon, their natural enemy? Save your complaints for the very important issues.

• 41:24Jocko Willink?

  There's nothing more tiresome as a quibbling, griping, uncooperative subordinate unit commander. Hold your tongue and sweat your man. I don't really know what that means. Hold your tongue and sweat your man. I don't know. When you rarely complain, people listen. Mm hmm. That I do know. Next, don't ask for guidance or you will get more than you want. If you are operating within general policy, move out and display initiative. If your boss doesn't like it, he will inform you. His opinion of you drops off with each succeeding CYA request for approval. It's legit. Don't ask for guidance or you'll get it. That's smart.

• 42:10Jocko Willink?

  And of course, it's not never ask for guidance. Obviously there's something unclear and you gotta look on the boss, we get that, but if that's your habit and every time you're just going, hey, boss, is it okay if I do this? Hey, boss, is it okay if I do this? Hey, boss, if I, so you don't want to take responsibility? You want me to, you want me to take responsibility? Okay, cool. Got it. Opinion is dropping. Next, the most, most successful leaders do more than is expected of them. You must pay the price. It is a conscious choice and I must admit that I have often envied many of my contemporaries, contemporaries who became much better golfers, bridge players, grass cutters, and commissary shoppers than I. Even so, you need not become a drudge or a workaholic.

• 42:51Jocko Willink?

  I played golf, poker, fished, hunted, drank, danced, and generally had a good time. So yeah, you gotta put in that extra work. You don't need to be a monk. Next, you must be able to establish priorities and meet deadlines, prioritize and execute. This again is where the perfectionist often becomes a cropper. I replaced a very able man as G3 of the 82nd Airborne Division because he tended to work on the top paper in his in-masket rather than the most important or time sensitive thing. Prioritize and execute all day. Whichever paper he worked on, you could be sure was a masterpiece of attention to detail and thoroughness.

• 43:32Jocko Willink?

  However, he was often late with his effort and while he was laboring with periods and commas, the world was passing him by. You must also be able to whip out an effort in the time allotted, even though you know you could do a better job given more time. Your boss will soon learn which of his subordinates can get with a problem in a hurry and come up with something when he needs it. Boom. I mean, this is just classic, you know? This is the whole principle of prioritize and execute.

• 44:01Jocko Willink?

  As you move up, you're, you must broaden your perspective. I recall that Sir William Slim, Chief of the British Imperial General Staff, was the Kermit Roosevelt lecturer. When I was at the Command and General Staff College in 1947, he talked about the art of high command. He had commanded the 14th Army in Burma and he reduced his hour lecture to three points dealing with the art of high command. It was no papers, no details and no regrets. Bro, that is freaking decentralized command. No papers, no details and no regrets. It's freaking legit.

• 44:42Jocko Willink?

  Uh, next, read about our great leaders. I equate this approach to the case history mentioned of teaching at the Harvard Business School. When you read the lives of MacArthur, Marshall, Arnold, Nimitz, King, Bradley, Ridgway, and many others, you will learn a great deal. Whether you can or will apply it is another matter, but first must come learning and understanding. Next, be for, not against.

• 45:11Jocko Willink?

  I'm gonna say that again, be for, not against. Most great leaders are positive. They establish goals and achieve them, or they have an idea and test it, or they have a dream and they try and fulfill it. People who are for things, people who are for things are vibrant. Oh, got it. People who are for things are vibrant, filled with electricity, radiating energy and enthusiasm. People who are against things tend to be dull, negative, uninspiring and boring. They cast a pall on every gathering and they are a wet blanket. We try to avoid them. They are not doers. Be a forer, not an against-er.

• 45:52Jocko Willink?

  Happiness in the final analysis is something to be enthusiastic about. Charles M. Schwab said, "A man can succeed at almost anything for which he has unlimited enthusiasm." Almost anything. I mean, you can do everything. Almost everything.

• 46:09Speaker 01

  I think that's interesting that he outlined that right there.

• 46:12Jocko Willink?

  What, what part?

• 46:13Speaker 01

  Be a forer and against-er, cuz I.

• 46:16Jocko Willink?

  Be a forer, not an against-er.

• 46:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, maybe it's my environment, but I feel like that's an important element of existing with people.

• 46:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 46:26Speaker 01

  Because we all have experienced that, you know, we all know the person who like, right, you come with them.

• 46:30Jocko Willink?

  Naysayer over there.

• 46:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, like, oh, hey, I just, I don't know, did something good and they're like, well, I hope, and then it's like something bad or whatever. It's, people don't talk about that enough, I think, right now, given the stuff that I hear out there, you know? Cuz it's, it's a huge deal.

• 46:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, for sure. It, much like, um, people that are insane do not know that they're insane.

• 46:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:53Jocko Willink?

  I feel like people that are negative oftentimes don't know that they're negative. It's just part of their inherent.

• 46:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:59Jocko Willink?

  But if you just can detach enough to pay attention to what you're saying, and you can go, oh, you know what? How does that actually sound, what I just said right there?

• 47:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:07Jocko Willink?

  I don't know if that's really good. I don't know if I'm very positive about this.

• 47:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:11Jocko Willink?

  And, and by the way, what's interesting about it, it is a personality type. You know what I mean? It's not like, you know, you give me something and, you know, sometimes I'm like, oh, you know, I'm not sure about that. And then other times I'm like, oh yeah, that's a go. It's like, you end up with a personality type. Oh, we can probably make that happen.

• 47:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 47:28Jocko Willink?

  You, you ever get like, admit, people in administrative positions and when people complain about them, they go, they're looking for a way to say no as opposed to a way to say yes.

• 47:37Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 47:38Jocko Willink?

  You're like, hey, what are we gonna, hey, you think we could do this? No, I think, I think we can. As opposed to like, no, that'll never work. Just be a person that says, try and say yes instead of try and say no. And that's the interesting thing. Some people try and say yes and some people try and say no. Their goal is to say no. Such a freaking bummer. I don't know what, is that an ego-driven thing where it's like, I don't like, I don't want Echo to have the good idea. So when you're like, hey, I think we should make this thing. I'm like, well, I don't know, yeah.

• 48:04Speaker 01

  I don't, I mean, yeah, maybe. I mean, I'm sure it's kind of a whole lot of everything, you know, in there. But I'm thinking of vague experiences that I've had and it doesn't feel like ego. It just feels like, yeah, it feels like they're just a downer. That's how they are. They, that's how they live, you know? Maybe it's like, I don't know, maybe it could be partially of this, like, you know, this idea of, um, let's say you're in a bad mood, right? Just as an individual, right? An arbitrary individual, you're in a bad mood and then someone comes to you with like, a good mood and good news and stuff. And you're kind of like, that mismatch kind of bothers you, you know, like, bro, I'm over here like in a bad mood and you're over here like in a good mood. Like, how dare you, you know, ruin my bad mood, kind of a thing.

• 48:46Jocko Willink?

  Don't mess up my bad.

• 48:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, so it feels like kind of that.

• 48:50Jocko Willink?

  Cheer.

• 48:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. So it kind of feels like that, but on a personality level.

• 48:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I was gonna say, I was gonna say, the big difference is like, you, Echo Charles, might be in a bad mood, but it's a temporary thing.

• 49:00Speaker 01

  Right.

• 49:01Jocko Willink?

  Whereas opposed to a person that's like a general broadly speaking naysayer.

• 49:05Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 49:06Jocko Willink?

  And an against-er is, this is, this is a personality trait. So don't be that way. Um, next, you must go where the action is. For some, it is the sound of the guns. For others, it is in support of those who go to the sound of the guns. When I was privileged to deliver the Kermit Roosevelt Lecture Series in England, the title of it was, the title of my talk was, "Your mission is to fight and don't forget it." I repeat it to you without elaboration. One thing I know for sure is the fact that most of my success can be attributed to the fact that I went to the sound of the guns and I was lucky enough to survive.

• 49:44Jocko Willink?

  Next, obviously I could go on in the same vein, but I will stop providing you with pearls of wisdom and I will elaborate at some length on the one piece of advice which I believe will contribute more to making you a better leader and commander. Will provide you with greater happiness and self-esteem and at the same time advance your career more than any other advice I can provide you. And it doesn't call for a special personality and it doesn't call for a certain chemistry. Any one of you can do it and that advice is, you must care.

• 50:19Jocko Willink?

  The Chief of Staff of the Army in a recent speech said it another way, "You must give a damn." Let's talk a little bit more about caring. You'll find that at this school and any other service school that you might attend, beginning at your basic course and winding up at the war college level, that you spend about 80% of your time on tactics, strategy, weapons, planning, writing. I'm being very generous here and you spend about 20% of your time on people matters. So what he's saying, you can go to these schools, whether it's basic training, whether it's company or career course, whether it's a senior NCO course, all the way up to the war college. 80% of the time is tactics, strategies, weapons, planning, writing, like that's what you're doing. 20% of the time, people matters.

• 51:02Jocko Willink?

  And he continues, "It's an interesting phenomenon and paradox that we go to school after school after school and spend about 80% of our time on tactics, weapons, logistics and planning and about 20% on people matters. And then we go to our units and what do we do? We spend about 80% of our time on people matters and 20% of our time on tactics, weapons, logistics, et cetera." Just think about it. Your young officers mostly here, majors and lieutenant colonels, but you have all commanded companies. Some hope to command battalions. Many have been S3s and execs and some have commanded smaller ships and some have commanded air squadrons. Where does your time go? Just reflect on it. You're dealing with grievances. You're inspecting barracks. You're inspecting latrines. You're checking mess halls, supply rooms, day rooms.

• 51:47Jocko Willink?

  You're worrying about laundry. You're worrying about pay. You're getting new officers and new non-commissioned officers and new soldiers. You're saying goodbye to officers and new non-commissioned officers. You're officiating the promotions of your officers and your non-commissioned officers. You're officiating the demonstrations of certain non-commissioned officers. You're dealing with the pass policy and complaints. You're dealing with awards. You're engaging in a great deal of correspondence. You're visiting the guardhouse. You're going to the mess hall on Christmas and Thanksgiving. You're going to the chapel on Sunday. Even if you're not religious, you're going there because you think you should as a good leader because you do it as an example to your men. Those are the things you're really dealing with in command and you must care about your soldiers and your sailors and your airmen.

• 52:25Jocko Willink?

  And this is just so true. It's just so true. Now think to yourself, all of you are saying to yourself right now, well, I care. What's this guy talking about? Well, there are degrees to caring. There are degrees of personal sacrifice to reflect the amount of caring that you do. And there's an attitude that you have to develop in yourself. How do you know if you care? You're sitting out there wondering, do I care? Do I really care? How do you know if you care? Well, for one thing, if you care, you listen to your junior officers and soldiers. When I say listen, I don't mean that stilted baloney that so many officers engage in and stand up to an enlisted man and say, how old are you, son? Where are you from? How long have you been here? Thank you very much. Next man. That's baloney. That's form. That's posed.

• 53:09Jocko Willink?

  I can remember when I asked my son, when he was a cadet at West Point, how he liked his regimental commander and he paused a while with that clean-cut incisiveness with which most midshipmen and cadets evaluate people. He said to me, "He plays the role." Wow, that was damning. He plays the role. I noticed this officer later in life and he postured a great deal and he always stood with his knees bent back and he always turned one toe out and he always wore a special little things around his collar and he always turned sideways. I knew what he meant when he said, "He plays the role."

• 53:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think we all did.

• 53:47Jocko Willink?

  Think we all do. Well, I'm not talking about that kind of stuff. I'm talking about listening. Because a young soldier won't come out and tell you everything that is wrong. He'll be a little hesitant. If you ask him if he's getting along all right, if he just shrugs, he's getting along lousy. If he's not enthusiastic in his response, there's something wrong and you better dig a little deeper. If you care, you care if you listen to him. I wrote in Leadership Strategy and Tactics, "The most underrated skill of leadership is listening."

• 54:19Jocko Willink?

  You care if you listen to him, really listen. You care if you really wonder what's, what he's doing on his off duty activities. When you're about to tee off on a Saturday afternoon, when you're at the club at happy hour, when you're going home or coming, uh, when you're going or coming home from church on Sunday. If you're wondering if there's this little creeping nagging in the back of your head about, I wonder what the soldiers are doing. I wonder. Do you do that? What are your airmen doing? What are the sailors doing? Where do they go? You care if you go in the mess hall, and I don't mean go in with white gloves and rub dishes and pots and pans and fine dust. You care if you go into the mess halls and you notice that the scrambled eggs are in a big puddle of water and that 20 pounds of toast could have been done in advance, that

• 55:02Jocko Willink?

  had been done in advance is lying there cold and hard. And the bacon is laying there dripping in grease and the cooks all have their work done way ahead of time. The cold pots of coffee are sitting on the tables, getting even colder. If that really bothers you, if that really gripes you, if you want to tear up those cooks, you care. It's the little things.

• 55:23Jocko Willink?

  When I was in Vietnam, a quartermaster captain was bragging to me about the ice cream that they made at Camp Evans and were taking out to the soldiers on the firebases. I said, that's great. He said, sir, would you like to see what we're making? I said, I'd like to see it very much. And he went there and they had these machines and they were pouring ice cream into these gallon containers. He was very proud. He says, we get it out there every day. I said, that's great. What are you carried out there in? He said, oh, these containers. I said, yeah, but how do the soldiers eat it? You know, they're all out there in little dugouts. They're not all lined up in a mess hall. They don't have mess kits out there and things like that. He said, I don't know, sir. I said, I know how they eat it. They pass that thing around. They stick their fingers in it and each one grabs some.

• 56:09Jocko Willink?

  I said, get some Dixie cups and send them. He said, Dixie cups? I said, yeah, Dixie cups.

• 56:18Jocko Willink?

  I use these little elementary things because I'm trying to illustrate a point. When you're getting ready for the annual IG inspection and you know that these guys are GI-ing around the barracks and you know they're working like hell and it's Sunday night, if you get your, get out of your warm house and go down to the barracks and wander in to see them work and just sit there on a footlocker. You don't have to tell them that they're doing a great job. Just sit on the footlocker and talk to one or two soldiers and leave. They'll know that you know that they're working like hell to make you look good. If, as I mentioned earlier, on Sundays and holidays, you're concerned, if you take your kids and your wife and you go to the mess hall, if even before that you wander around and see if they're making that place look decent, you care.

• 57:02Jocko Willink?

  If you have a fine, uncommonly good looking, non-commissioned officer with muscles rippling down his cheeks and a strong neck and clean as a whistle, trim as could be, shoulders back, the, the look of tigers in his eyes, and then he says to you, captain, don't worry about it.

• 57:19Jocko Willink?

  I guarantee I'm going to take care of him. If you don't check to see whether he is making these guys do pushups until they're dizzy and sweating and about to pass out, if you don't wonder, is this guy getting a little sadistic from pushing these guys around? If you don't make it your business to make it known throughout your outfit that you won't put up with that crap? He actually has edited out, he had crap and he lined through it. He put stuff, but I'm giving him crap back. Then you don't care.

• 57:48Jocko Willink?

  But if that worries you, when you wonder and you go back and you check and you ask questions and make sure, you care. If you look out your window before a parade and you see that the troops are there lined up 15 or 20 or 30 minutes before windy, rainy, hot, whatever it may be, if it doesn't really boil you to see that, you don't care. But if it does, you care because the only reason, the only reason the soldiers stand around and wait is because some dumb jerk officer didn't plan it right, or he planned it in such a way that the troops have to pay for him not missing a deadline. You care if just before a jump or just before an assault on a hot landing, or just before

• 58:33Jocko Willink?

  takeoff from an aircraft carrier, just before a close air support raid or a close support raid, you care if you wander down to where these guys are and you notice that their Adam's apples are bobbing a little, you notice that they are a little pale, you notice that they are yawning a lot. People yawn when they're scared. And it really helps scared soldiers and scared lieutenants and scared captains and majors and commanders and lieutenant commanders, and it helps anybody when you're scared and getting ready to do something more difficult for somebody to come around who is a senior to you, whom you respect and admire, to let you know that he cares.

• 59:10Jocko Willink?

  You've got to seek out these situations wherever it is tough for your men.

• 59:16Jocko Willink?

  Be there and understand and be sympathetic and give a pat and it has got to be, it's got to bother you in your belly when you walk down the line and see all these lads waiting and they're sitting under the wing of a plane or they're sitting near a chopper and they're loaded and the sweat is coming down their face and they're really scared and you can smell it in their breath. I can tell you, you can smell fear in a man's breath, but you'll never know it unless you get close enough to smell it.

• 59:42Jocko Willink?

  And if that bothers you and if you try to help him in that way, you care.

• 59:48Jocko Willink?

  I can't make you do this, but you really, you really need to like soldiers. You need to be amused by their humor. You need to be tolerant of their body-ness. You need to understand that they're as lousy as you let them be and as good as you make them be.

• 1:00:08Jocko Willink?

  You just have to really like them and feel good about being with them. When I was commanding the 101st Airborne Division, I used to write a column every week. It was in a paper called The Screaming Eagle. The name of the col- column was Lucky Eagle Says.

• 1:00:26Jocko Willink?

  I tried to get some message to my soldiers. I tried to get some direct communication to them. My code name was Lucky Eagle. The code name for the fellow before me was Bold Eagle. I figured if I was bold, my soldiers would know it. I didn't have to put it in my code name, so I named myself Lucky Eagle on account of soldiers are superstitious and soldiers are always scared about something. If they wanted to be associated with anything, they wanted to be associated with luck. This is what I wrote in that column and I saved it. I said,

• 1:00:59Jocko Willink?

  "You cannot expect a soldier to be proud

• 1:01:04Jocko Willink?

  if you humiliate him. You cannot expect him to be brave if you abuse and cower him. You cannot expect him to be strong if you break him."

• 1:01:16Jocko Willink?

  Man, those are important. I'm sorry, I just couldn't stop reading for, what was that, like a seven minute period or something like that? Cause it's all just good. It's just such powerful stuff and it's so, he's just giving example, oh, after example, after example of what it means to care for your troops. And not only that, that whole idea of like, you have to like them.

• 1:01:36Jocko Willink?

  There's a, of a distinct

• 1:01:41Jocko Willink?

  separation between officers and enlisted guys in the military. It's a thing, right? The enlisted guys call the officers sir. The officers get, you know, better housing. The officers get paid more money. The officers are, you know, they get more responsibility as well.

• 1:01:57Jocko Willink?

  But you would see that sometimes, kind of like a class system, right? Where, look, there's, there's class systems in, in every part of the world. And in America, we, you know, you have certain classes. We have socioeconomic classes, right? And there are definitely people that look at people that are a lower class as a worse human being, right? This person is worse than me. They're dumber than me. They're not as smart as me. They're not as clever as me. They're not as, don't have as much money as me. They're, they, they rack those things up. And you see those, those people that are like that. They look down on other people. They treat the waiter, the waiter like shit. They treat the, whatever, the gas station

• 1:02:41Jocko Willink?

  attendant like shit. They think they're better, right? And you would sometimes see people in the military, you know, we would joke about it as enlisted guys. When I was an E-Dog, you know, we would, we would say, oh, you know, you don't want to come down here and eat with the enlisted swine, right? The enlisted swine and, and the, the enlisted man is not to be trusted. We had all these like little sayings that kind of played into this. And of course we were joking, but if you don't think there was some people that, that had those feelings, you know, you're wrong. So that, there is a separation there. But these ideas that, that I just laid out, if you cannot expect a soldier to be proud, be a proud soldier if you humiliate him, like think about that with your kids, you know?

• 1:03:26Jocko Willink?

  You cannot expect him to be brave if you abuse and cower him. Again, think about that with your kids.

• 1:03:31Jocko Willink?

  And think about that with your people you work with, people that, that work for you.

• 1:03:37Jocko Willink?

  You cannot expect him to be strong if you break him. Now listen, and we'll get into this a little bit at some point, but does that mean you don't push them? No, absolutely not. Does it mean you just let them do whatever they want? No, absolutely not. Does it mean you never have to discipline them in some way? No, absolutely not. But there's a huge difference between disciplining someone and breaking them. There's a huge difference between disciplining someone and making them cower. There's a huge difference between disciplining someone and humiliating them.

• 1:04:13Jocko Willink?

  So you gotta be careful. You really do have to be careful.

• 1:04:19Jocko Willink?

  Continuing on, you cannot ask for respect and obedience and willingness to assault hot landing zones, hump back breaking ridges, destroy dug in emplacements if your soldier has not been treated with the respect and dignity which fosters unit esprit and personal pride.

• 1:04:36Jocko Willink?

  Again, what are you doing with your family? What are you doing with your team? Are you, are you building those things up?

• 1:04:45Jocko Willink?

  Are you treating them with respect? Are you listening to what they have to say? The line between firmness and harshness, between strong leadership and bullying, between discipline and chicken shit. Now, he didn't have shit on here, but I added it in there because that's, that's a military thing. And it's not as much of a military thing for my generation as it was in like World War II. They would call it chicken shit. So anything, you know, hey, polish the brass on that freaking doorknob. Polish it again, polish it again, polish it again. Oh, I see a fingerprint on there polished again. That's chicken shit. Like, oh, polish your boots, go, you know, go hiking, go on a, go on a patrol, come back. Oh, I see your boots aren't polished, polish them again, polish them again, polish them again.

• 1:05:30Jocko Willink?

  That's chicken shit stuff. That's what they call it in the military, chicken shit. So he says there's a line between discipline and chicken shit, and yes, there absolutely is. Chicken shit is dumb stuff. There's no reason for it.

• 1:05:43Jocko Willink?

  And he says it's a fine line between firmness and harshness, between strong leadership and bullying, between discipline and chicken shit. It's difficult to define, but those of us who are professionals and who have also accepted a career as leaders of men must find that line.

• 1:05:59Jocko Willink?

  That's what we have to do.

• 1:06:03Jocko Willink?

  And boy, it is a fine line. And by the way, that line isn't just like permanent. You know, there's going to be some things with your team, you're going to have to impose this much discipline and some things you better not impose that much discipline. You gotta figure out this is the dichotomy of leadership, right? The dichotomy of leadership is that line, it does, it's not, it's not permanent. Same thing with your kids. Like your, there's some kids, there's some kids, there's some things that your son is gonna do that you will not have to impose any kind of punishment whatsoever. He'll already be punishing himself. You know? And there's some things where they're not gonna realize, you're gonna have to impose some kind of punishment because they'll be like, they won't understand, it won't land. And you're gonna have to figure that out. On, on kind of a case by case basis.

• 1:06:48Jocko Willink?

  You know, look, we want to be consistent, being consistent is so important as a leader. That includes parent. Being consistent is so important, but you gotta realize that there's, that consistency also has a little, has, there's gotta be some maneuverability in there.

• 1:07:02Jocko Willink?

  You gotta have like, kind of some things that just are not gonna happen. Like, there's, there's a line that's not gonna be crossed. Right? And then they gotta know what that is, but then they gotta, okay. How can I maneuver around it here?

• 1:07:19Jocko Willink?

  And it says this, so you gotta find that line. It is because judgment and concern for people and human relations are involved in leadership that only men can lead men and not computers. I enjoin you to be ever alert to the pitfalls of too much authority. Beware that you do not fall in the category of the little man with a little job with a big head.

• 1:07:47Jocko Willink?

  In essence, be considerate, treat your subordinates right, and they will literally die for you.

• 1:07:57Jocko Willink?

  And that's what he wrote in that, um, that article. And we'll close it out with this section here. I wanted all my officers and non-commissioned officers to know I felt that way. Now I want to close by stating that if you care, I guarantee you will have a successful career. I won't guarantee that you'll be a general or an admiral, but I guarantee that you will improve your chances tenfold. So it is in your self-interest.

• 1:08:28Jocko Willink?

  It is in your self-interest, and I'm saying this all the time. You know, all these, these recommendations that I give about leadership, a lot, you know, take the high road, you know, and, and people will, you know, use the indirect approach. There's all these things where it seems like it's gonna take longer and it seems like it's gonna be hard and, but I guarantee you in the end, you win in the end. Like your, when your team wins, you win. When you accomplish the mission, you win. If you claim, hey, I, hey, don't I want some, don't I get some credit over here for this? Can you, I was the one that was leading this thing. The minute you raise your hand and do that, you're hurting. You're hurting the way you appear. If you put the team first, you're gonna win in the end. If you put the mission first, you're gonna win in the end. So it is in your self-interest to care about your people.

• 1:09:14Jocko Willink?

  Even if you do not become a flag officer, you will still be happy in the devotion, love and affection of your men, and you will like yourself better.

• 1:09:26Jocko Willink?

  And he closes it with this, I sincerely believe that to be a successful leader in the idealistic sense, you must care.

• 1:09:38Jocko Willink?

  And there you go.

• 1:09:41Jocko Willink?

  General Melvin Zeiss.

• 1:09:45Jocko Willink?

  Take care of your people. And again, take care of your people, doesn't mean you don't push them, it doesn't mean you don't

• 1:09:56Jocko Willink?

  make them push themselves. It doesn't mean that you give them a bunch of time off, it doesn't mean that you don't train them hard, no, it doesn't mean any of that. Taking care of your people actually means the opposite. How can you prepare them? How can you get them ready? And you gotta push people, you gotta push people. When you push people, they get stronger. When you make, when you push them mentally, they get tougher. Now, do we put, take someone that's never lifted before and put 500 pounds on, on for back squat? No, we don't do that. Just like we don't berate people when they make a mistake in a leadership situation. Just like we don't throw problems at them that are so hard to solve that they get crushed.

• 1:10:32Jocko Willink?

  We try and build them up by little micro, what, micro damage, right? Little micro damage. Like, like what we used to do with our shins for Muay Thai. You know, you keep hitting that, you keep kicking that bag, your, your shins get tougher and your nerves start to die. And by the way, yeah, you can get out the little, the, the roller. The roller for your shins. You can, yep, the broom handle for your shins, you can kick, you can kick hard stuff. That's what we're doing. That's what we're doing with our people. Right? We're, we're, but you don't take a baseball bat and do a full swing when you first start training Muay Thai. No, that won't, that won't work.

• 1:11:15Jocko Willink?

  You don't even try and kick a baseball bat in half when you first started training Muay Thai. You'll be, you'll, you'll break your shin. But over time, as you put more and more stress on the shin, it becomes tougher and stronger. And eventually it'll break that baseball bat.

• 1:11:33Jocko Willink?

  Same thing with leadership, same thing with your people. You don't just put stress on them and degrade them and punish them. No. You'll destroy them. You want to build them up. So that's what we're doing. We're taking care of our people.

• 1:11:49Jocko Willink?

  Taking care of them, uh, so they can be their best. And that includes, of course, from a leadership perspective, a mental perspective, a spiritual perspective, and of course, the, um, the physical perspective, by the way. Which means we are kind of getting after it.

• 1:12:07Jocko Willink?

  And guess what? When you're getting after it, you're gonna need fuel, you need to fuel your mission. And that's why I have Jocko Fuel. Jacofuel.com. We have protein, we have energy, we have supplementation, we have this new creatine. Man, it's good. It's creatine plus, it's got, it's, well, one of them is flavored and it's really good. Yeah, so check that out. We've got greens, we've got Time War. We've got products that you need. We've got products that you need and they taste delicious and they're efficacious. And that's what we're doing worldwide. Kind of worldwide. Don't, sorry, Europe and the rest of the world. Cause I do get a lot of like, hey, when are you sending this stuff? When can we buy this, you know, wherever we are.

• 1:12:52Jocko Willink?

  Right now, it's primarily America, but we do have Ian down there in Australia. Get some underscore AU. He's out there getting after it. But here in America, go to any store that you might go to and you can get Jocko Fuel, get the clean Jocko Fuel. If they don't have it there, just ask them and, and we'll, we'll get it there. We're working on it, the whole world. Well, again, all of America, I need to say for that. Slowly but surely, but Jacofuel.com, check that out also. If you need American-made clothing, including jujitsu gear, t-shirts, hoodies, rash guards, boots, sneakers, by the way. Sneakers. Yep. Good to go. Sneakers, tennis shoes, and trainers. We have all three. We have sneakers, tennis shoes, and trainers.

• 1:13:38Jocko Willink?

  We have all three. Those are, they're, they're gonna sell out quick. But they're a hundred percent American-made, which is awesome. So check out originusa.com to get a hundred percent communist free, slave free.

• 1:13:53Jocko Willink?

  Hard goods.

• 1:13:54Speaker 01

  Hard good, tell you.

• 1:13:54Jocko Willink?

  Is that the right word?

• 1:13:55Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 1:13:56Jocko Willink?

  No, there's another word I was searching for.

• 1:13:58Speaker 01

  Durable goods?

• 1:13:58Jocko Willink?

  Durable goods I was looking for.

• 1:14:00Speaker 01

  Oh durable, yeah.

• 1:14:00Jocko Willink?

  Durable goods, there you go, clothes.

• 1:14:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, same thing.

• 1:14:03Jocko Willink?

  Clothes, uh, check out originusa.com.

• 1:14:06Speaker 01

  It's true, also jocko store.com. Discipline equals freedom, more, uh, it's not durable goods, I don't know if it's durable or not, but pretty durable as far as t-shirts go, they last long, I'll tell you that. Anyway, discipline equals freedom, good, various versions too, by the way. Discipline equals freedom, five versions, five options. See what I'm saying, so you got one, hey, get the other four, or one of the other four. All available at jocko store.com. Uh, also, keep in mind, Christmas coming up.

• 1:14:35Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:14:35Speaker 01

  Good place to shop, free people, free self even. There's a, we have gift cards on there too, by the way.

• 1:14:41Jocko Willink?

  Nice.

• 1:14:42Speaker 01

  See what I'm saying, yeah, so you can kinda save up for the friggin', you know, the time or the, you know, the future stuff. Um, also, short locker on jocko store.com, so short locker, click on the top, it says short locker, it's a membership, subscription, you get a new design every month.

• 1:15:01Speaker 01

  If you are wondering what these designs look like, you can go to that page, it'll show you like a little, little hint of it just to kinda keep you in the game, let you know what you're signing up for. Anyway, people seem to like it, it's pretty cool, it's all on jocko store.com.

• 1:15:12Jocko Willink?

  Check that out, also, we got books, by the way, we have Warrior, Way of the Warrior Kid books. We've had two of those books on Audible, and now we have all five of the Way of the Warrior Kid books available on Audible. So, if your kid has been, uh, wishing for those, the wishes have come true. We have all of the Way of the Warrior Kid books, and Mikey on the Dragons, Mikey and the Dragons, all available on Audible. So, check those out, and then, of course, I've written a bunch of books about leadership, and then you got Put Your Legs On by Rob Jones, you got Need to Lead by Dave Burke, so you can get after that. If you enjoyed listening to this talk about leadership today, you can check out echelonfront.com, we have a leadership consultancy, and that's what we do, we solve problems through leadership.

• 1:15:54Jocko Willink?

  We can bring you to an event, we can host an event with you, or we can embed ourselves inside your organization, and we solve problems. Also, check out extremeownership.com, if you wanna learn the skills of leadership online, you can check that out. And if you wanna help service members, active and retired, you wanna help their families, you wanna help Gold Star families, you can check out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee, she's got an amazing charity organization, if you wanna donate, or you wanna get involved, go to americasmightywarriors.org, also check out heroesandhorses.org, and then finally Jimmy May's organization, beyondthebrotherhood.org. We also have warriorsneed.org, and strongholdrescue.org, got a lot of orgs that are out there doing great stuff. So, support them if you can.

• 1:16:37Jocko Willink?

  If you wanna connect with us, check out jocko.com, check out the underground, which is where we answer questions. And then there's social media as well, but I just assumed you just stayed off of that, instead of being on there, it's not gonna help you, it's gonna actually make you a worse person. And to all of our people out there in uniform right now, standing watch, watch around the world, facing complex challenges in a new kind of battlefield, we thank you for protecting us and our freedom. And thanks to our police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, Border Patrol, Secret Service, as well as all other first responders, thanks for what you do to keep us safe and protecting us here on the home front.

• 1:17:21Jocko Willink?

  And everyone else out there, of all these various components of leadership, General Zeiss emphasizes one thing more than anyone else, and I think we know what that is, it's care. Care, take care of yourself, take care of your family, take care of your team, take care of your community, take care of your country, this is the most important factor. And you know what, not just for leadership, but as the general also points out, caring is the key to a happy life. So, take care, and that's all we've got for tonight, and until next time, this is Echo and Jocko, out.