492: The Path Is Hard. Team Dealer Bravo Company 2-6 Infantry. With Ryan Jackson.

>Join Jocko Underground< https://www.jockounderground.com/subscribe Bravo Company 2-6 IN "Team Dealer" owned and controlled its battlespace, Al-Taʾmīm. The regulars of Team Dealer were never attached to the command of other units. All units planning operations in Al-Taʾmīm, including NSW (SEALs) and other SOF or OGA units always reported to Team Dealer before planning ops in Al-Taʾmīm. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 492 with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening. The dealer NCOs carefully placed Lanzeren's remains into the ambulance for the final 100-yard ride to the helipad. First Sergeant Shaw commanded order arms and in unison, the salutes dropped. Wordlessly, the formation closed ranks behind the ambulance and followed it into the darkness to the edge of the helipad.

• 0:29Jocko Willink?

  The chopping sound of two Marine CH-46 Sea Night helicopters in the distance soon replaced the constant hum of generators powering Camp Ramadi. As the whir of the rotors grew louder, the members of the silent crowd stood a little straighter. As the helicopters flared to land, a dust cloud of sand and pebbles filled the air, prickling the faces of the assembled soldiers.

• 0:54Jocko Willink?

  The back ramps of the Sea Night dropped and two crew chiefs moved swiftly across the helipad, came to attention, saluted, then led the dealer NCOs to the aircraft for Lanzeren's trip back home.

• 1:10Jocko Willink?

  Colonel McFarland and I stood next to the ambulance in silence.

• 1:16Jocko Willink?

  Within minutes, the back ramp rose, the assembled crowd snapped to attention. As the whine of the engines increased, First Sergeant Shaw's voice filled the air again. Present arms.

• 1:31Jocko Willink?

  With the blades spinning faster, the lifting helicopters prop washed blue sand harder into the faces of the troops gathered in formation, this time, holding their salutes until the birds were out of sight.

• 1:46Jocko Willink?

  Again Shaw commanded the formation. Order, arms.

• 1:53Jocko Willink?

  For Staff Sergeant Lanzeran, it was the beginning of his journey back to his grieving family. For the rest of us, it was time to continue the mission. Some soldiers left immediately, grieving on their own. Others milled about in small groups, telling stories about their departed friend. "Remember that time?" Or "You remember when he took the..." Some just stood, quietly sobbing or kicking the dirt and vowing vengeance. As we walked down the hill from the helipad, Colonel McFarland put his arm around me and asked me how I was doing. "Sir, I'm fine. We're fine," I replied as I slinked out of his embrace.

• 2:34Jocko Willink?

  I had a job to do, and for the sake of the unit, I could not go wobbly now. My job was to lead the living. "Tony, you know Dealer has taken 25% casualties," he asked as I was lighting a cigar, getting back into character. "Yes, sir. More counting the guys from Dagger. Chris Stilling's advisor team has lost almost 50%," I acknowledged. Colonel McFarland had seen a lot of injury and death in the past four months, as had we all. Up to that point, I had never thought of it as a percentage, but as individuals. Scotty Love and Crombie were dead.

• 3:19Jocko Willink?

  Rosansky had lost his legs, and Sergeant McCool was shot. Now Sergeant Lans was gone. My guess is that one of the staff officers at the Brigade Headquarters ran the numbers and the magnitude of what Team Dealer was accomplishing and the costs associated with their success hit Colonel McFarland all at once. "I'll get you guys some more help," he promised. I was truly grateful. I thanked him, and he turned and walked away into the night.

• 3:57Jocko Willink?

  And that right there is an excerpt from a book called Ramadi Declassified and was written by Colonel Tony Dean is a book that I discussed with Colonel Dean on Podcast 452. And in that section of the book and on the podcast, we talked about Team Dealer, Death Dealers, Bravo Company, 2nd Battalion, 6th Infantry, 1st Armored Division, who was attached to 135 armor under Colonel Dean. And we talked about their aggressive drive to accomplish the mission despite the sacrifice and the heavy losses.

• 4:40Jocko Willink?

  And while it was Colonel Sean McFarlane with the strategic goal and leaders like Colonel Dean, turning that strategy into operational objectives. It was the soldiers and Marines in the company's platoons, squads and fire teams that were out there making it happen and taking the fight to the enemy in companies like Dealer. It is an honor to have one of the soldiers of Team Dealer with us here tonight to share his experiences in violent combat and his experiences after. Staff Sergeant, retired Ryan Jackson.

• 5:22Jocko Willink?

  Thank you. Ryan, thanks for joining us, man. Thanks for having us. I'm glad, I'm glad we got connected, which I guess we got connected again through the reunion that's coming up. Yeah. The, the, the Ready First Ramadi reunion, which is going to take place January of 2026. 20 years. The 20 year. That's crazy. The 20 year. And we'll get into the fact that you, you ran a little 10 year reunion a few years back for Dealer. We'll get into some of that stuff, but that's how we got reconnected. We of course talked about the fact that you've got. A lot of healing from a four-legged friend.

• 5:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:57Jocko Willink?

  Right? Your dog caliber.

• 5:59Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 5:59Jocko Willink?

  And we'll get into that as well with with Canines for Warriors, an awesome organization that has helped out a lot of service members. So we'll get into some of that, but let's let's start about, let's talk about just where you came from, some of your background. Where were you born?

• 6:14Speaker 01

  Uh, Dallas, Texas.

• 6:15Jocko Willink?

  And then, and then where'd you grow up?

• 6:16Speaker 01

  Uh, we eventually moved to Snellville, Georgia.

• 6:19Jocko Willink?

  Was it Snell?

• 6:20Speaker 01

  Snellville, yeah.

• 6:20Jocko Willink?

  Snellville?

• 6:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, everybody's somebody. It's the motto.

• 6:24Jocko Willink?

  What, everybody's somebody?

• 6:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:25Jocko Willink?

  I like it.

• 6:26Speaker 01

  It's right next to Stone Mountain, if you've ever heard of that. It's a big grant, yeah. So right on the road from that. Um, and then eventually moved up to Hiawassee, Georgia, which is right outside of Helen. Um, it's top of the, bottom of the Appalachian Mountains.

• 6:38Jocko Willink?

  And what did your parents do?

• 6:39Speaker 01

  Uh, my mom worked for the first company that had the private modem. Uh, she sold that.

• 6:46Jocko Willink?

  Oh dang.

• 6:47Speaker 01

  My dad left when I was like three or four. Um, my grandparents had a big role in raising me and stuff. My granddad worked for EMS, electromagnetic sciences. They actually invented the cell phone tower repeaters.

• 6:59Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 7:00Speaker 01

  And the tracking system for the Hellfire missile and all that stuff.

• 7:04Jocko Willink?

  So when you were, when you were growing up, were you spending a lot of time with your grandparents then?

• 7:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:09Jocko Willink?

  Cause your dad, so your dad was out of the picture.

• 7:11Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 7:12Jocko Willink?

  And, and then what was, uh, growing up? Did you actually live with your grandparents?

• 7:18Speaker 01

  No, no, I just, yeah, I was with them on the weekends, um, and then some evenings, they were close enough that we'd go over there for dinner and stuff. And they'd pick me up from school, pick up my sister and stuff.

• 7:26Jocko Willink?

  Okay, and so that was the sibling scenario was one sister?

• 7:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I got a, yeah, a half sister and two other half sisters, but no contact with them.

• 7:33Jocko Willink?

  Okay. Um, and then what were you into when you were growing up?

• 7:36Speaker 01

  Uh, dirt bikes, hockey and trouble and girls.

• 7:40Jocko Willink?

  Georgia has a hockey scene?

• 7:41Speaker 01

  Roller hockey.

• 7:42Jocko Willink?

  Roller hockey?

• 7:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:43Jocko Willink?

  Okay, you didn't specify roller.

• 7:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, I've actually never roller skated in my life. I started out on roller blades and started playing hockey.

• 7:50Jocko Willink?

  And, and was there like club, like what was happening on there?

• 7:54Speaker 01

  Leagues, yeah.

• 7:55Jocko Willink?

  Leagues? Are people still playing roller hockey?

• 7:58Speaker 01

  I don't think so. I don't know, maybe.

• 8:01Jocko Willink?

  I saw some comedy talk, some comedian talking about roller blades.

• 8:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:05Jocko Willink?

  And it was like, you know, once somebody says something negative about at roller blades and everyone got rid of them real quick. It's like everyone had him and then someone said, no, those are for girls. And then everyone threw him away.

• 8:17Speaker 01

  We used to do like the aggressive skating, like grinding on sidewalks and stuff.

• 8:21Jocko Willink?

  And that's where you were into growing up and and then dirt bikes?

• 8:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, uh, we had a, we had a lot of land up in North Georgia. So my granddad is always big on dirt bikes and motorcycles and stuff. So I grew up, uh, my first dirt bike, I think I was like six.

• 8:32Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 8:33Speaker 01

  And uh, since then, I, you know, I had him riding all the time. I'd race him and motocross races.

• 8:38Jocko Willink?

  Oh, you did motocross and everything, huh?

• 8:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:40Jocko Willink?

  Did you ever look at one of those army units where they have like motorcycles? I guess that's SF.

• 8:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, that would be cool.

• 8:45Jocko Willink?

  I know SF has motorcycles.

• 8:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, they got all the cool toys.

• 8:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And, and then what, what about like, uh, school? Were you into school? How were you doing in school?

• 8:55Speaker 01

  Oh, I was there. Um, I had the potential, but I smoked a lot of weed, did some drugs and I didn't really apply myself.

• 9:05Jocko Willink?

  That's the best answer I've ever heard for how was school? He's like, I was there. I attended.

• 9:11Speaker 01

  I mean, looking back, like I know I could have done a lot better and I actually told my granddad, you know, I don't want to go to college right now because I don't feel like I'm mature enough to go. I'm going to get in trouble. I'm going to, you know, party and not show up to class. So I didn't really have anybody to push me to do that. I'd come home and do my homework if I wanted to or not.

• 9:30Jocko Willink?

  Did you ever think about the military at a young age or when did you start thinking about it?

• 9:34Speaker 01

  Oh, probably when I was like 10 or 11. I was in the Civil Air Patrol. I don't know if you know what that is.

• 9:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 9:39Speaker 01

  Um, and I did ROTC.

• 9:41Jocko Willink?

  Apparently they weren't drug testing in the, uh, Civil Air Patrol, huh?

• 9:46Speaker 01

  It was a, it was always something I looked up to, you know, it, I think inside I was looking for like the structure and like the discipline and, you know, male role models in my life that I didn't really have. So I was always big in the military and kind of going that way. Uh, went to go join the Marines like, like 17. Felt drug test.

• 10:07Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 10:07Speaker 01

  They actually do test.

• 10:08Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah. This ain't the Civil Air Patrol anymore.

• 10:11Speaker 01

  No, it's not.

• 10:13Jocko Willink?

  So were you still in high school when you tried to join the Marine Corps?

• 10:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I actually joined the Army on September 12th, 2001, like right after nine 11. I came, I walked into art class under the influence, obviously, and bad decisions and everything just kind of clicked. Cause like we were sent home from school, we're out next couple of days and I was just.

• 10:33Jocko Willink?

  So what year are you a senior in high school? Your senior year in high school is when September 11th happened?

• 10:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:38Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so you see it happening on TV?

• 10:41Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 10:41Jocko Willink?

  And then what you go into school and?

• 10:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, and watch it play out, you know, on TV and stuff and the whole realization of everything that was going on and looking back and, you know, we're going to war and all this stuff and I just kind of was like, what am I doing? Like, I'm, I'm not going to go to college, you know, not going to do anything, so I was going to the Army. I'd already tried for the Marines before that because they have what's called a delayed entry program where you join and you have to wait till you graduate. September 12th, I went into the Army recruiter's office and I watched about six or seven different VHS tapes. A recruited commercial scene. I got into infantry and I was like, that one.

• 11:17Jocko Willink?

  Well, so they're just telling you different MOSs?

• 11:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 11:20Jocko Willink?

  And then you finally saw infantry?

• 11:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:22Jocko Willink?

  And you said, that's me.

• 11:23Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 11:24Jocko Willink?

  But you're only a junior, you're only a senior in high school and it's September.

• 11:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:28Jocko Willink?

  And so now you have to wait another, what, six months or eight months?

• 11:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, about six months, but they had stuff where you had to show up, had to do PT on the weekends.

• 11:37Jocko Willink?

  Did they, did they pee, did they piss test you?

• 11:39Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah, I was cleaning, yeah.

• 11:41Jocko Willink?

  So by that time you were like, all right, you realize you can't be smoking pot all the time?

• 11:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I was in it too. I was invested. I was like, this is what I want to, I actually had a special forces contract.

• 11:48Jocko Willink?

  Oh, nice.

• 11:48Speaker 01

  And it worked out that way because it's fast as we deployed.

• 11:53Jocko Willink?

  What kind of music were you into when you were growing up?

• 11:55Speaker 01

  Like sublime, like techno stuff.

• 11:59Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 12:01Speaker 01

  See, I had a buddy, his uh, his mom or his stepdad, he managed concerts and stuff in Atlanta. So we got tickets to all the concerts and stuff.

• 12:11Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 12:12Speaker 01

  I actually uh, spoke to Rob Zombie at the Tabernacle in Atlanta. It was pretty cool.

• 12:17Jocko Willink?

  That's legit. That's a good story.

• 12:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:19Jocko Willink?

  Uh, so once you were, once you enlisted in a delayed entry program, then you, then you realized like, all right, I'm going for this.

• 12:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:27Jocko Willink?

  Stop smoking pot. Did you perform at school at all or not really? Cause you didn't care?

• 12:31Speaker 01

  Um, I, yeah, I started picking up a little bit.

• 12:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 12:34Speaker 01

  One, like stopped smoking, cleared my head up a lot. Cause as a kid that young, you know, smoking, it's not good for you.

• 12:39Jocko Willink?

  How long were you smoking pot for? Like what age?

• 12:41Speaker 01

  Since I was like 13.

• 12:42Jocko Willink?

  Dang.

• 12:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I get bad influence in my life. Um, easy access to it and just looking back, you know, like I said, I had the potential to be good in school, but I just wasn't applying it. So it was a.

• 12:55Jocko Willink?

  So are you training to like, you're going to go to a special forces selection at this time?

• 13:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. They, they do all kinds of PT and stuff. I had some pretty good, I can't remember the recruiters, but I know it was aggressive. Like they come pick me up at the house. Um, it wasn't a mandatory thing, but they were like, you want to do it, it's here. And so they'd come pick me up on the weekends and I'd go do PT and just learn army stuff. And I think it was my recruiter was invested in me, which I wish I remembered his name. Shout out to whoever that was.

• 13:21Jocko Willink?

  Good job.

• 13:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:23Jocko Willink?

  So then you, you get done with high school, your senior year, you make it through with no drama, you graduate and then it's off to bootcamp?

• 13:30Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 13:30Jocko Willink?

  And so now it's what? So have we even gone into Afghanistan? Yeah. We would have gone into Afghanistan, but Iraq's not going off yet.

• 13:36Speaker 01

  Right.

• 13:37Jocko Willink?

  Okay. How's bootcamp?

• 13:40Speaker 01

  It was a eye opening. Um, so you know, I wasn't that athletic or aside from the hockey, the motocross, like I wasn't, I didn't know I couldn't run until I got to basic training. Um, still not a fan to this day, but uh, so had some issues with that, but yeah, that's what they trained us for. Break you down, build you back up. And uh, that's exactly what happened. Uh, I caught on quick. I, I knew all the marching stuff already. So that was.

• 14:03Jocko Willink?

  That's from uh.

• 14:04Speaker 01

  ROTC in high school. Yeah. Um, so I did like the drill team and all that stuff.

• 14:09Jocko Willink?

  Did you do ROTC all through high school?

• 14:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:12Jocko Willink?

  Even when you were smoking pot, you were going ROTC?

• 14:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I wouldn't.

• 14:15Jocko Willink?

  That's classic.

• 14:16Speaker 01

  It was just after school.

• 14:18Jocko Willink?

  That's classic. Yeah, it's crazy. Um, what, did you have that moment in boot camp or did you have a few of them where you're like, what the hell did I just do to my life?

• 14:26Speaker 01

  No, I really didn't. Um, but I feel like every day was more exciting. Like we'd do something different. Like, so I mean, there was a few times on like a 12 mile road march where I'm like, well, what did I get into? You know? Four o'clock in the morning, you're on mile 11 or stuff like, or long runs, but.

• 14:41Jocko Willink?

  So did you feel like you kind of found your thing?

• 14:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's exactly what happened.

• 14:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 14:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:46Jocko Willink?

  I know. That's definitely what I felt when I got in the, in the Navy, when I was like, okay, cool. I got.

• 14:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:51Jocko Willink?

  This, this, this I can, this I can do. And the Navy is a different kind of boot camp, especially when I went through, it was like, it was literally about folding underwear and just the lamest stuff. But, uh, yeah, got through it. Um, did you have any major challenges besides running?

• 15:07Speaker 01

  Um, not really. I mean, I didn't really, I didn't miss home. I mean, I, I literally, I joined to get away from home. I get to get away from my friends at the time. Cause you know, bad influences and all that stuff. I joined to keep myself out of trouble and. So yeah, other than running, that was my, that was the hardest thing. And then I found out I was really good at ruck marching and then really good at shooting and really good at a lot of stuff. So.

• 15:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's, that's a thing, man. Like there's different types of muscle genetics that you can have and you can be like an endurance guy. Or you can be a really fast sprinter.

• 15:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 15:41Jocko Willink?

  And then there's dudes that are good at ruck humping.

• 15:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:43Jocko Willink?

  Which is a good thing to be good at when you're in the military.

• 15:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:46Jocko Willink?

  I was like that too. I never won a damn four mile race in the SEAL teams and I never won a hundred yard dash either, but I'd win some rucks.

• 15:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:54Jocko Willink?

  You know, I could, I could ruck.

• 15:55Speaker 01

  Paying for it now, but.

• 15:58Jocko Willink?

  Jack. And then what was after that? Did you go to AIT after that?

• 16:01Speaker 01

  Uh, it was one station unit training. So infantry at Fort Benning, it's just all straight. I think it's 18 weeks, 18, 19 weeks, whatever it is, but it's one station. So you're basic training and then you just kind of phase into infantry training. Uh, they just incorporate it all together. So that's kind of unique. I don't think there's any other MOSs that do that.

• 16:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 16:18Speaker 01

  Um, so after that graduated basic training in December, went home on leave for 30 days. And I already had orders to Germany because that was part of my enlistment contract, go to Europe.

• 16:27Jocko Willink?

  How's it like when you went home for leave?

• 16:30Speaker 01

  Uh, very different, very different, like.

• 16:33Jocko Willink?

  Were you disconnected from your friends enough to be like, yeah, this is?

• 16:38Speaker 01

  I started to realize a disconnection, um, like, you know, I've been gone for six months and you guys haven't done anything. Like you're not in school, you're not in school, you're not in school. Like that could have been me.

• 16:47Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 16:47Speaker 01

  Um, and then like people started looking up to me and I didn't really understand. I was like, I just did this thing, you know? But, um, so my friends even came to my graduation and they're kind of impressed with that. So. It was, it was definitely different, but it was quick too, because you know, I had, I didn't have anything to take with me. So just my army stuff and. Spent time with the family and did Christmas and then I was off to Germany.

• 17:10Jocko Willink?

  And how was your experience getting to Germany now?

• 17:15Speaker 01

  Well, I was 18, uh, 19. So that was a little eye opening. Uh, it's my first like major flight and it was like nine hours. Um, and then I got there. And it was a processing unit and my name was like, they were going alphabetical order and then they skipped over my name and I was like, that can't be good.

• 17:37Speaker 01

  And then some guy leaned over at me and he's going, you're going to the rock. I was like, what? Uh, so bomb holder Germany is known as the rock. It's just a small military base on top of a hill in Germany. Um, so they called my name and said, Jackson, go on the rock and call it bomb holder. Um, and then me and. Four other guys loaded up the van and the longest van ride in snow at nighttime, just going around mountains and shit. That may be a little eye opener. Um, uh, I got to my unit and immediately got hazed. Uh, by an entire platoon. So, um, I had no idea what I was doing. Um. Woke up the next morning, uh, my squad leader told me I was going to be a two forty gunner.

• 18:22Jocko Willink?

  Get some.

• 18:22Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, 19. So I was like, that's pretty cool. I only shot it once, you know, at basic training on a range on a tripod.

• 18:31Jocko Willink?

  And at this point. The US Army and the US military is gearing up to invade Iraq.

• 18:37Speaker 01

  Right.

• 18:38Jocko Willink?

  Did you at nineteen years old make that connection or did they let you know, did you, when you land on the ground, were they like, hey, we're going to Iraq?

• 18:44Speaker 01

  Um, no, um, it wasn't for about another month after we were getting there. And then all of a sudden they had a random month long training mission, um, in Hohenzollgern, Germany and Grafenwehr. So in Grafenwehr, they do the gunnery. Hohenzollgern, it's like, uh, applying all the action and movement contact lanes and stuff like that. And we did that back to back. And then they're like, well, by the way, we get done with this, we're deploying. So, I mean, I was in Germany for three months before we deployed. Yeah. I didn't get to do anything.

• 19:14Jocko Willink?

  And then you guys deployed, deployed to Kuwait?

• 19:17Speaker 01

  Uh, no, we went straight. Well, we were in Kuwait for like four days, but we were, we were part of the invading force and going into Baghdad, two thousand and three.

• 19:22Jocko Willink?

  How much time were you sitting around and, and waiting to, for the invasion to take place?

• 19:27Speaker 01

  Uh, less than a week. Like it was that quick. It was more like in processing. Here's your vehicles. Here's your guns. Here's your stuff. And we were gone.

• 19:34Jocko Willink?

  Dang. So you weren't part of that force that like waiting on the border for months on end?

• 19:38Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 19:39Jocko Willink?

  You just showed up and the invasion started?

• 19:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:44Jocko Willink?

  What was your, what was your attitude as that invasion was kind of kicking off?

• 19:48Speaker 01

  Exciting, scared. Um, now we, we invaded Iraq in soft skin Humvees in the back of five ton trucks. Um, and then Bradley. So it was a

• 19:58Jocko Willink?

  America's finest, or the world's greatest fighting force, right?

• 20:01Speaker 01

  She was better.

• 20:02Jocko Willink?

  Canvas doors on the Humvees.

• 20:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, the invasion was wild. Um, just blasted away all over Baghdad.

• 20:11Jocko Willink?

  And you were what, a two forty gunner? In what, in what vehicle? What kind of vehicle?

• 20:15Speaker 01

  Just a soft skin Humvee. Like we had it strapped down on sandbags, like on the soft skin Humvee.

• 20:20Jocko Willink?

  Your two forty was strapped down in sandbags?

• 20:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, like on a tripod. It was, I got pictures of it. It's kinda sketchy looking back on it.

• 20:28Jocko Willink?

  Dude, I gotta get some of those pictures.

• 20:29Speaker 01

  They didn't even have doors on them like this.

• 20:32Jocko Willink?

  What about, and you're, that's crazy. This is the first person I've talked to where their lead up time was like very short. Most people were sitting there for months.

• 20:39Speaker 01

  No, we were gone.

• 20:40Jocko Willink?

  Doing the drills with the, with the gas masks and the mop level four gear and all that stuff.

• 20:45Speaker 01

  We did a few of those. Yeah. We were walking around the mop gear for a while. We had the scud attacks. Um, but it was quick.

• 20:51Jocko Willink?

  And then what was, as you guys are pushing up, like, wha- wha- wha- what are you doing? Are you just securing the road? What's happening?

• 20:58Speaker 01

  Wow. We were just in a convoy and our, our end goal was the cross sabers in Baghdad.

• 21:03Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 21:04Speaker 01

  And uh,

• 21:05Jocko Willink?

  That's a freaking legit.

• 21:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:07Jocko Willink?

  That's a legit end state.

• 21:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was pretty cool. And then Saddam's palace, uh, the one right there in between the Tiger and the Euphrates. Lived there for a little while. Um, just, I mean, it wasn't like crazy combat cause uh, third ID had already come through, but just going, I mean, we were still getting, you're still engaging T72s and still engaging, you know, moose fight, not moose fighters at the time, it's still Iraqi army at the time. But we're in, like, literally we had dudes sitting on boxes of water facing out in the back of a five ton truck and just like taking shots and I don't think we, I mean, we stopped for a couple of days, but I know it was like 67 days before I took a shower.

• 21:46Jocko Willink?

  And as, as you must've been the lowest ranking guy in your, in your platoon.

• 21:51Speaker 01

  Luckily I was PFC because I already had all the ROTC and stuff. So I got graduate based training as a PFC. So.

• 21:58Jocko Willink?

  How was your knowledge of what was going on from like a strategic picture?

• 22:01Speaker 01

  Well, I didn't know. I didn't know anything. I didn't know. I just did what I was told at the time I was supposed to do it. And when I was off, I was either burning shit or bull guard somewhere else. So.

• 22:12Jocko Willink?

  And it was 67 days before you took a shower.

• 22:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that was at Saddam's palace. And some, somebody busted a water pipe on accident and it made like a shower and everyone was like, uh, and some dudes came up and put some ponchos around it and that was our shower.

• 22:29Jocko Willink?

  What do you remember getting shot at for the first time?

• 22:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:32Jocko Willink?

  What was your, were you like, oh, this is it? Did you, were you ready for it?

• 22:36Speaker 01

  I definitely wasn't ready for it. Um, it was eye opening. It was different, you know, and, uh, and infantry based training, you do the, uh, it's like a movement to contact lane, uh, where you have to like crawl on Constantino wire where you get shot at. So you hear like the snap and the crack and stuff and bullets go by you and you're like, all right, that's what it is. But, you know, when they like start hitting the vehicles and stuff, that's a different story. Luckily they weren't that good a shot back then. So, but.

• 23:00Jocko Willink?

  Did you guys take any casualties?

• 23:02Speaker 01

  No.

• 23:04Jocko Willink?

  And by the way, what, what unit had you, what, what company were you a part of at this point?

• 23:08Speaker 01

  Same thing, Bravo two six.

• 23:09Jocko Willink?

  You traded a Bravo two six and you went right to war with them?

• 23:12Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 23:12Jocko Willink?

  Dang, awesome. But you didn't take any casualties?

• 23:15Speaker 01

  Nope.

• 23:16Jocko Willink?

  Smooth sailing, relatively speaking.

• 23:18Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 23:19Jocko Willink?

  Did you see, uh, did you see the Iraqi populace like with the flags, American flags and stuff like that?

• 23:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um, one thing going back a little, well, that's the second deployment. Um, yeah. So as we were going up, we had all of our, our rucksacks and our A bags strapped to the outside of the Bradley. Um, so, you know, they'd be outside waving the white flags and stuff and kids were excited, but also we had dudes that had sticks with knives taped to the end of them and they were cutting our bags as we were driving by. So when we got there, nobody had anything. So not only not taking a shower for a while, you don't have to like, you're, you got the clothes you got. If you're lucky, you know, if your rucksack didn't get cut open.

• 23:54Jocko Willink?

  Dang.

• 23:55Speaker 01

  I guess nobody stopped to fix that. There's nowhere else to put it. So we're just kind of carryless.

• 23:59Jocko Willink?

  And then once you got up to, did you settle in anywhere in Baghdad? Is that where you settled into?

• 24:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, we settled at the museum of presents to the president. Um, it's right outside of Saddam's one palace next to the cross savers.

• 24:10Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 24:11Speaker 01

  Um, we had to clean out, the museum's attached to the cross savers. So we lived there. We had to clean it out first because looters that came in there and we had US customs agents in there that were like making sure we didn't steal anything or protecting stuff. And I know Saddam, uh, he had like a prison in the bottom of it and there was some gold down there. And I know some SF dudes like blew a hole in there. I don't know what happened to that, but I think that's why customs was there. But, so we secured that because it was supposed to be like a tier one site. And then we moved to the power plant.

• 24:40Jocko Willink?

  Where was the power plant? Also in Baghdad?

• 24:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, like right down the road.

• 24:43Jocko Willink?

  And you would just set up shop there?

• 24:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:45Jocko Willink?

  And then almost like a little mini combat outpost?

• 24:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was, yeah, pretty much like one of the first ones, I guess. We just pull, you know, pull guard on towers and do patrols out of the base.

• 24:57Jocko Willink?

  And then how long was this whole deployment?

• 24:59Speaker 01

  Uh, it ended up being fifteen months. So it's supposed to be twelve, but we got extended um three days before we're supposed to go home.

• 25:06Jocko Willink?

  So it took you what a couple of weeks to push up into Baghdad?

• 25:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:10Jocko Willink?

  And then you settled in and then you stayed there for fifteen months?

• 25:12Speaker 01

  Oh, we stayed in Baghdad for, let's say, eight or nine months. And then we did a Mutad al-Sadr, his body army, which is like, alright, so the way that deployment worked was the very first couple of months was like intense. And then it was nothing. This is before the insurgency started. Um, so it was kind of, it was nothing like, you know, the Iraqis were super friendly to us. They loved us being there. We were doing good stuff. And then all of a sudden, the insurgency just kicked off. And it's like they flipped the switch, like turned the light on, the cockroach, you know, run away. But and then they started doing all kinds of stuff. I remember like the first IED we found was literally like a bomb next to a side of a highway. And a dude like sitting on a berm.

• 25:50Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, almost looks like a.

• 25:51Speaker 01

  Like the Acme thing.

• 25:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's exactly what I said. You said that. What, what month you remember the insurgency get starting to get gnarly?

• 26:01Speaker 01

  Ooh, um, so that point was March. We were supposed to come home in

• 26:09Speaker 01

  September, I think, March to March. I'd say about eight or nine months through. I can't remember the months, but and

• 26:18Speaker 01

  I, I mean, it was raw at that point. Like, I don't think they know what they were doing either. They were just like, I don't want you here anymore. Which we can't blame them.

• 26:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Yeah, this is um, when I look back at this whole thing. So I was in, I got to Iraq and like oath in the fall of oh three. And we were doing a bunch of hits and taking down targets, blah, blah, blah. But with the whole time we were targeting Mutad al-Sadr. And, you know, like different groups were gonna go hit him, but no one could ever get permission. Because no one knew what was gonna happen. Everyone's kind of afraid if we hit Mutad al-Sadr, like, does the whole country turn into a disaster? And so someone had got the bright idea to send us to go and hit Muqtada al-Sauders, like one of his top lieutenants was this guy named Yakubi. And so we went and captured Yakubi.

• 27:03Jocko Willink?

  And that was in April of 2004. And like, the next day, it was total chaos in Iraq. And it was like, uh, there was like, I woke up in the morning and there was, I looked out because I was, I was riding by Baghdad International Airport. And like, there was just smoke coming from vehicles all over the highway. There was people were getting mortared. It was just really bad.

• 27:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:29Jocko Willink?

  And so that was sort of a turning point, looking back in when there was a real escalation of violence. And I don't think anybody predicted that.

• 27:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:38Jocko Willink?

  I don't think, because I think we would have been like, we as coalition forces would have been like, well, let's continue to negotiate. Let's figure something out. But they wanted to see what would happen. And that actually might have been an even worse move.

• 27:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:52Jocko Willink?

  Right? Because now you still had Sodder leading his people. And yet you really pissed him off. It was almost like the joke about like flicking a bear, like flicking a bear in the balls, right?

• 28:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:05Jocko Willink?

  You, you, you might just kill the thing, but they didn't do that. And so things started getting much, much worse. And then for me, we, my platoon left, like, you know, another couple of weeks later, we were out of there. And then we get back to America and we're watching just downward spiral.

• 28:22Speaker 01

  Right. I think the turning point I remember the most is when we killed Saddam's sons. Because we were there for, we were the outside security and stuff. And I remember once, you know, they put some javelins in there, some kinds of stuff in the palace and stuff. And I remember that night or the next night, um, it was just AK fire, every like tracers going up in the sky, just going everywhere. And we were like, what the hell is going on? And that from, I think from then on, it kind of started getting a little wild.

• 28:47Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Some of the other things was the, uh, Abu Ghraib prison thing. That was bad too. Because now you had Al Jazeera was putting that stuff. Americans are torturing Iraqis. And that was not helpful at all either. So there's a bunch of things that led to it. Things are getting worse and worse. Didn't, so what was your op tempo? Were you guys, and what were you guys doing? Like, what was your mission?

• 29:10Speaker 01

  Secure the power plant and the palace. Um, so it was a pretty mundane thing, you know? I think it was like Adhan. Ten off and some admin stuff. That's back when we were still literally burning our shit like, you know, you'd have the fifty gallon drums. You'd put some diesel field JP eight in there and burn it and as a private, you're stirring it with a stick. We had one private that uh, he decided he didn't want to do that anymore. So he put too much in there and ended up burning down our shitters.

• 29:35Speaker 01

  Sitting in boxes for a while. Then they finally got us porta potties.

• 29:40Jocko Willink?

  And that's where you were for, for how many months were you sitting on the power plant?

• 29:44Speaker 01

  So our unit, we had three different tier one sites. So they would rotate us through. So there was the power plant. There was like a gypsy camp where I forget. I think they were Kurds and they were just kind of like put there. So we had like watch over them. I don't know the point behind that mission. Like I said, I was just private. So um, and then there was one other, I think it was something at Biop. Something like that. So we'd go up there and they would rotate us like every month or so, go through it. It is pulling guard.

• 30:10Jocko Willink?

  Just security duty.

• 30:11Speaker 01

  Just doing patrols. It got kind of mundane and.

• 30:14Jocko Willink?

  But patrols inside the wire.

• 30:17Speaker 01

  No, outside, like through like downtown Baghdad.

• 30:19Jocko Willink?

  Okay. So you were pushing out patrols.

• 30:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:21Jocko Willink?

  How was the uh, how's the enemy activity at that time during that deployment?

• 30:25Speaker 01

  It wasn't really much of it. I mean, it wasn't, it didn't really kick off until I'd say like the last four months of our deployment. So one big thing is we were three to four days before deploying, like we were turning in ammo. Like we were getting our Bradley's ready to send back to Germany. And uh, so Al Sadr did his thing. There was a British CAC building or something that got overran.

• 30:49Jocko Willink?

  Oh yeah. Down in Najaf.

• 30:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. So.

• 30:52Jocko Willink?

  I went to QRF that thing.

• 30:53Speaker 01

  All right. So.

• 30:54Jocko Willink?

  And I didn't get there in time. So.

• 30:55Speaker 01

  When that popped off, we hit, we went to Machmedea, Al Tweta, and then Najaf in four days. And we ended up staying in Najaf and that was shitty. I mean, that was bad. We got mortared every single day. To the point where we were putting sandbags on the roof. Um, I remember getting up to go take a shower one time because we, they brought the trailers in. And we came back in a mortarhead laid on top of the building and my cot had shrapnel in it. I was like, well, that could have sucked. And then we had one dude that was in the shower and a mortar hit and you could see like the silhouette of his body from like where it went through. He ended up going home, but that was like. You can't do anything about that, you know, you get outside, whether you're cleaning your gun

• 31:37Speaker 01

  or whatever, you just get mortared like, there's not many places to run to, so that was a little shitty, but.

• 31:42Jocko Willink?

  And how long did you stay down in the jaw for?

• 31:44Speaker 01

  Uh, we were there for three months.

• 31:46Jocko Willink?

  And what were you doing down there?

• 31:47Speaker 01

  That was a little intense. Um, I remember, so the day we found out that we were getting extended, um, so I, when I came home mid to relieve, I proposed to my now ex-wife and I, so we were supposed to go back. I, she was planning a wedding, it was supposed to be in June, I think.

• 32:05Jocko Willink?

  Army had a bit, other ideas.

• 32:07Speaker 01

  So after we took over that, uh, British CPA building, they left behind all kinds of stuff and they left behind a sat phone. And I remember sitting on top of a building, the CPA building, I think, and, uh, calling, you know, my ex and being like, we're not going home. And before I could get that off, um, a Kyowa came down and straight from a mil-, because Sardar's army started marching through the street and then Kyowa just came down and that's last time I talked to her and then for about a month and a half, that's when it started getting wild. They had a lot more IEDs and stuff.

• 32:39Jocko Willink?

  And you guys were, were you guys at the CPA?

• 32:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:42Jocko Willink?

  You guys went there to reinforce that thing?

• 32:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:44Jocko Willink?

  Awesome. And you're getting attacked, but it's, but you're, but you're staying in a static position or are you still pushing out patrols?

• 32:52Speaker 01

  Uh, we're still pushing out patrols and both, you know, you'd be on a guard tower and then you get down and go do a patrol or something like that. And the attacks, there was nothing, no strategy behind it. You know, they just pop out from on a wall and take a pop shot. It's like we were fighting ghosts. You never get to really see them and rarely when we have like actual gunfights, you know?

• 33:12Jocko Willink?

  And so you got extended three months or four months, something like that?

• 33:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:15Jocko Willink?

  And when'd you, when'd you end up going back to Germany?

• 33:22Speaker 01

  July.

• 33:23Jocko Willink?

  July of two thousand and four.

• 33:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:25Jocko Willink?

  Got it. And how was the, uh, how was the, what do they call it? They got a word for it, reintegration. How was the reintegration to the world?

• 33:34Speaker 01

  Quick, fast, in a hurry. Um, you know, I came home. That's back, I mean, I wore my DCUs home. Um, one, we still didn't have like the modern amenities. So we would wash our, our uniforms in JP eight and like water. So I remember like walking to the airport. One, I got all the standard innovations. I think dudes were buying me drinks, like steak dinners, waiting in the airport. Got all the attention and stuff. When I came home, it was literally a hero's welcome. I mean,

• 34:00Jocko Willink?

  And this was coming home to Germany?

• 34:02Speaker 01

  Uh, no. So come home to Germany. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. One little too far ahead. Coming home to Germany was, it was fun. Like I was,

• 34:09Jocko Willink?

  Were you talking about before going home on your leave?

• 34:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, leave after that. So coming back to Germany, it was quick. Um, I was single. I lived in the barracks. So we just kind of got pushed away. You know, the married dudes had their whole thing. I just remember like we walked into the gym and they said, welcome home. We did a whole speech and stuff. Then there's a reintegration process where you have to go through and talk to doctors and stuff for like three days. Everybody was, it just whole place smelled like a brewing factory. It just reeked of alcohol. Everybody was drunk. I think everybody just wanted to check the boxes and get out of there. We did have to, everybody had a peanut jug for like a gallon jug because we were shooting DU rounds. You'd put uranium rounds. So there was that. And then we were at the, to wait the power plant where there was yellow cake, enriched uranium. So I tested for that. I think that's why my kids are so smart to this day.

• 34:58Speaker 01

  But, um, yeah, you know, the, the whole idea of like PTSD and stuff like that didn't really come up. Nobody wanted to admit that at the time.

• 35:08Speaker 01

  We had a bunch of replacements that were there. So they were just kind of blown away and looking up to us. And so nobody wanted to like admit that, like, it kind of might've sucked a little bit, not as bad as it was going to get later on, but.

• 35:22Jocko Willink?

  And then you went home to America on leave?

• 35:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:25Jocko Willink?

  And that's when you were getting treated like a hero?

• 35:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. Thirty days, uh, leave. Uh, got married. So that was August, two thousand and four. Got married. Um.

• 35:38Speaker 01

  Went and got, oh, for the time, an ID card and, you know, went on a little small vacation, able to do Christmas with the family again, got to see everybody, uh, went back to Germany and then had her sent over and that was a turning point for me. Um, I was a just got promoted to sergeant or I was about to be at the time. So I was married, so I got out of the barracks and got housing now. Um, that was a shocker too, because I was like, oh, I don't have a car, I don't have any furniture. So luckily the army has a program where they get like loaned you furniture, just houseful of army furniture and.

• 36:15Jocko Willink?

  Did you get a car?

• 36:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I eventually got.

• 36:18Jocko Willink?

  Did you get a cool German car for cheap?

• 36:21Speaker 01

  Uh, it wasn't cool. It was eighty-five Volkswagen Golf.

• 36:24Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 36:25Speaker 01

  It was a manual and it had like rust spots in the wall where you could see the ground.

• 36:29Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 36:29Speaker 01

  Uh, it was enough to get around base.

• 36:31Jocko Willink?

  So it was cold, not cool.

• 36:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. Uh, one of the things, I guess the way the German environmental stuff is, you can't, if it's that bad and you want to like junk it, you have to pay to junk it. So you just sell it from soldier to soldier. So I paid five hundred bucks for it.

• 36:45Jocko Willink?

  Uh huh.

• 36:47Speaker 01

  It was, it got me around.

• 36:49Jocko Willink?

  No, because I, I was in Germany for a while and, uh, guys would buy like nice cars.

• 36:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:54Jocko Willink?

  You know, they'd take out a loan and buy a BMW or something because it's way cheaper than buying a BMW or Mercedes in America.

• 37:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, but you can't ship it back.

• 37:01Jocko Willink?

  Can you not?

• 37:02Speaker 01

  No, they don't have American specs, some of the windshield and the seatbelts or something. I don't know, but I did eventually work my way up. I got to, you know, after I was there for another year or so, I got to be in W and.

• 37:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, see, moved up in the world. Did it have floorboards in it?

• 37:15Speaker 01

  Yes, it did, yeah.

• 37:17Jocko Willink?

  And what's your job when you come back now? You're, you're promoted, you're sergeant.

• 37:20Speaker 01

  I was a team leader. Um, so, um, so in between that, I was a Bradley driver for a little bit too, because it's just I wanted to get off the ground. I wanted to learn the Bradley. So I drove that for a while and then I got back on the ground. I was a team leader. I got promoted. Um, and then. I wanted to be a gunner on a Bradley, so I asked my platoon sergeant if I can be a gunner. He was like, sure. And I did that. So then I went from being on the ground to being in a mountain section. And I got really good at shooting the Bradley. Then I got promoted to be Captain Lance's gunner. So I was his gunner, which was pretty cool. I was the lowest ranking. I was company commander's gunner. I'm still at E5.

• 38:01Jocko Willink?

  That's legit.

• 38:02Speaker 01

  But that was cool.

• 38:04Jocko Willink?

  And then you guys are now preparing for another deployment at this point.

• 38:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was a quick turnaround. So we had, we got back, we got our replacements in, a lot of the old guys left. And then we already knew, as soon as we got back, like, we're going to be able to get in a year. And our mindset started changing a lot more, you know, because now I was married, and now it's not just me anymore. And also, we just got back, and we're going back again. And we have new guys to train up. So we had to train them up, get them ready.

• 38:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, by the way, you're coming back from a 15 month deployment. See, I don't know if you know this, but the Marine Corps and the Navy, they do six months deployments, for the most part. Like, maybe it's seven, maybe it's eight, but it's like, they're just on that cycle. And the reason on that cycle, it's all based on ships. Like, ships go out for six months, generally speaking. They used to do nine back in the day, but now they figured out that like, six months is, so the Navy and the Marine Corps is like, six months. We, you know, I'd always feel like, damn, dude, these guys are doing 14, 15 month deployments. Get some. And then you come home, and you have a one year turnaround.

• 39:08Speaker 01

  Right.

• 39:09Jocko Willink?

  And you know you're going back for...

• 39:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. Part of that one year was, we did two Graff and Veer rotations, which is the gunnery. And then we did a Graff and Veer and Holinsfeld back to back rotation. So, you know, movement to contact lanes and all that stuff. We were, you know, I joke about it all the time. I was in Germany for five years. I went to one Oktoberfest. Hardly ever got to travel anywhere, hardly got to do stuff. It was a quick turnaround.

• 39:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that is an interesting thing too, because the Navy and the Marine Corps deploy regardless of what's going on in the world. Whereas the Army doesn't really do that. Like, the Army, you might, you might be at home for a long time if there's no war happening. Of course, we weren't predicting two decades of war after September 11th. So you, you just spend all the time on the road, you're all the time is training. You'd only get one Oktoberfest. You, you don't, you might as well not even gone to Germany.

• 40:02Speaker 01

  I mean, there was still, you know, there was still block leave in times and, you know, forty weekends and we could get on a train and go to Paris, go to all over. We went to a lot of places. It just wasn't, you know, non wartime Germany living.

• 40:16Jocko Willink?

  And you got kids coming along the way at this point?

• 40:18Speaker 01

  No kids yet.

• 40:19Jocko Willink?

  Uh, so now you're preparing for this deployment. How's that workup? Now that you've kind of been in combat before, you've been to Iraq before, how's that workup feel?

• 40:29Speaker 01

  Uh, a lot more, I wouldn't say stressed, but a lot more awareness of what I'm doing. Like now I got my own soldiers, I'm responsible for. And we're going to war. So like the whole, you know, now I have to be responsible for them, bring them back. So I put a lot of focus on training, a lot of focus on PT, as much as I didn't like to, still did it. Um, so getting them ready to go was, you know, that was, there was a lot to that.

• 40:52Jocko Willink?

  You like that leadership position?

• 40:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, very much, yeah.

• 40:57Jocko Willink?

  Pre-deployment leave? Do you guys get pre-deployment leave?

• 40:59Speaker 01

  No.

• 41:00Jocko Willink?

  No pre-deployment leave?

• 41:01Speaker 01

  No.

• 41:01Jocko Willink?

  Just pack up and go?

• 41:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, pretty much. I think it was like a four day weekend or something worked in there, but.

• 41:07Jocko Willink?

  And then where did you, you guys didn't deploy, you guys didn't, do you deploy to Kuwait this time?

• 41:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, so we had to go to Kuwait and we were the ready reserve force. Um, this was after Fallujah, so. We got, yeah, so they're expecting something like that again to happen. So we're in Kuwait waiting, which I can tell you was hell on earth, like literally. Um, I don't.

• 41:29Speaker 01

  People were ready to go to war, uh, which is something I was thinking about earlier. You know, I had young soldiers and that as much as we've been training, you know, doing CQB and houses with live rounds and stuff like they, they, they were good and they were excited. They just, they wanted war. And I remember thinking like, be careful what you wish for. This is before we left, but being in Kuwait, everything's brown. There's nothing to do. It's hot as shit. You're walking everywhere in the sand, wearing all your gear and it's just miserable. I mean, Captain Lance on had us training every day. I mean, all the training. I think Colonel Dean mentioned in the, your other podcast, we're, we're ready, but there was nothing to do. And then, you know, we're getting paid. It, part of me was like, you know, we're getting paid.

• 42:12Speaker 01

  We're not getting shot at, so just live life, you know, just do your job, whatever. And the soldiers just wanting to go. And I remember being like, you don't really know yet, but I didn't, you know, I was prepared off the first deployment, so.

• 42:24Jocko Willink?

  And you guys are, uh, training hard. Do you guys get anybody injured while you're training? Anything like that?

• 42:30Speaker 01

  Oh, not from training. We had, uh, it got to be so crazy that we had one soldier, uh, kill himself in the porta body. Uh, we had a lot of fights, like a lot of people get in trouble, you know, mailing alcohol from home and doing stupid stuff. Um, I can't remember any significant, we had a, I think it was Alpha two six, where they're at a Bradley range. And somebody was like cycling up the ghost round in the Bradley, the 25 millimeter, the way you do it, have to like feed it into the chute and stuff and cycle it. And he accidentally fired off a 25 millimeter round and a Sabo pedal hit a dude in the neck. And, but that was, that was, you know, just leading up to it.

• 43:07Jocko Willink?

  At what point do you find out that you guys are going to Ramadi?

• 43:10Speaker 01

  Oh, um,

• 43:13Speaker 01

  it's about five months in, it just, it happened quick. Like I know, um, Colonel Dean, which I wasn't part of that. I didn't know any, we just hear, you know, rumors on the streets and stuff, but I know Captain Lance on went up to Baghdad to like recon some stuff and they came back and they said, we're going to Ramadi. And you know, we're cut off from all the news. We don't know what's going on. So we just hear, you know, what everybody else is talking about. Um, and I was part of the Advon force. So I was with, because I was Captain Lance's gunner. So I went up with him like two weeks before the rest of the company got there. Which was crazy.

• 43:46Jocko Willink?

  What was your assessment when you got on the ground there?

• 43:48Speaker 01

  Um, quick, fast and hard. Um, I mean, ECP three happened like the second day we were there and that we were out on a right seat ride with them. And we just see, you know, the giant explosion like right in front of us and just tear off over there. And we pull up the ECP three and set up a cord on on the two forty gunner. Now we got armored Humvees thankfully. Um, I just remember sitting there and as soon as we pull up, Captain Lance was trying to get out and there's three dudes running across the field, um, like pulling a card or something. And I yelled at him to get back in the truck and I just cut them down with a two forty and I ended up getting an award for that. And I was kind of thinking about that. I was telling my wife the other day, you know, it's get a kid an award for like cutting down three dudes with a machine gun. Like cool, you know,

• 44:34Speaker 01

  awesome engagement, but looking back like, uh.

• 44:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that ECP three. So this attack happened and this would happen when Americans would try and turn over control points to Iraqi forces. And when the, with the, when the insurgents would see that, they would know that that was going to be a easier target for them.

• 44:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:56Jocko Willink?

  And so they would oftentimes hit those, those ECPs really hard.

• 45:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:02Jocko Willink?

  Then that's what happened at ECP three. And I think that's the one where the oncoming mid team commander and the outgoing mid team commander were both killed. Uh, if I remember correctly.

• 45:13Speaker 01

  Um, I don't think everybody was killed. Okay. Three. That's what started Reinhardt got hit and then Garza. That's when Colonel Dean was talking about like living in shit and showing up like the Iraqis or shit.

• 45:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there was, there was one, I guess I must be confused because there was one and it was during a turnover op because the incoming mid team commander and the outgoing mid team commander. One of them was wounded, one of them was killed or both of them were killed, but just it was such a terrible welcome aboard.

• 45:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:39Jocko Willink?

  To the guys. Now, now you guys are coming on board.

• 45:42Speaker 01

  Right.

• 45:43Jocko Willink?

  And it's like, oh, man. Welcome. Welcome to Ramadi.

• 45:47Speaker 01

  Uh, like you were saying, when we're changing out, like the enemy, they know with different vehicles, different markings.

• 45:55Speaker 01

  So that you know, they see that and they're they're going to exploit the weakness. Um, what they didn't know is we had Bradley's on the way like they weren't there yet, but so we showed up the rally that it changed a little bit.

• 46:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there's a a beautiful thing about about Abrams and Brad's for sure. So how long is it? How long is your turnover with these guys?

• 46:17Speaker 01

  I think it was about a week.

• 46:19Jocko Willink?

  And you jumped in the left seat immediately and like, we're going out.

• 46:23Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 46:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there's another part in Ramadi declassified where Colonel Dean was talking about the fact that, okay, we got to get guys out into the AO. Even if the guys are going to be on QRF, we got to get them out in the AO. They got to start doing patrols. And he sent out however many patrols it was, and every single one of them got hit.

• 46:41Speaker 01

  Everyone, yeah. Yep. See Brett Tribble got killed within the first. So once the rest of our company got there about two weeks after that. Uh, I think it was like the second mission we had, Brett Tribble got killed. My buddy, Tom Davis, um, lost his leg.

• 47:00Speaker 01

  And then not even two days later, Lieutenant Love got killed and PFC Crombie, which Crombie was a brand new medic. I remember the dude like slept in a cot across from me and I maybe saw his face. I can't even remember his face today, but like that young, just like two days, like two days, like second patrol just annihilated. I mean, the IEDs that they were hitting us with were crazy.

• 47:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I got this book right here. Um, it's actually his, his mom put it together. It's called Love Nick, but it's just, it's, it's a bunch of, um, letters that he had written home. And well, as you just pointed out, what's really heartbreaking about the book is like, there's, I think, one letter from Ramadi. Because the rest of it is letters where he's writing from Kuwait, from other areas and from just being the army. There's, there's a one, one letter. And actually there's a, there's, it's actually not even a letter. It's a, it's a cell phone message that his mom got. She said, Hey, mom, this is Nick. I'm in Iraq right now and it's pretty cool here. I went on patrol the other day. I got to save someone's life. They got shot. He had gotten shot. He was an Iraqi guy.

• 48:07Jocko Willink?

  He got shot in the upper left abdomen. We had to fix him up while we were on patrol. It was pretty exciting. Got to save someone's life with all my cool medical knowledge. Like I ended up living, but he had to get his spleen removed. It was exciting, as I mentioned. As a medic, I don't really have to do anything dangerous, I guess.

• 48:25Jocko Willink?

  The only dangerous thing I have to do so far is like I raided a store. We had to search it out real quickly for a bomb or anything suspicious. We pull over cars to look for an IED or something. You know, it's just exciting. Being over here is like being BPS Border Patrol or State Trooper. We kind of drive around all day trying to arrest bad guys. Um, that's, and that's what it's, that's what it's about here. We're doing during these days, it's pretty safe.

• 48:49Jocko Willink?

  Everyone's trying to make their parents think that it's hot, dusty and sandy. And yeah, that's about it. I'll try and call you some other time, but I don't know how often I'll get, how often that's going to be because it's hard to get like on a phone or a computer out here. It takes a little time and patience. So yeah, I'll try and call you again in a bit. All right, bye. The telephone message immediately after, oh yeah, I forgot to tell you. I love you, mom. Bye.

• 49:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 49:14Speaker 01

  I know the book was out there.

• 49:16Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 49:20Jocko Willink?

  Like you were saying though, it's a young, young soldier that just showed up there. And, um, and then this other guy Lieutenant Scott Love, who is, which it's interesting because when you hear Lieutenant, you know, you hear First Lieutenant, you think of like a young guy that's kind of inexperienced, but he was like a 30 plus year old guy. He was, everybody loved the guy.

• 49:40Jocko Willink?

  And that's what you guys roll into.

• 49:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, I was Lieutenant Love's gunner for a little bit. And, uh, he was super chill dude. I mean, he was professional, but he was super chill. And he, Colonel Dean said he was invested in the mission. He was invested in the mission. Like he, he spoke Arabic. He, he, he was about the, what we were doing. Like he was about the hearts and minds. Um, he was still tactical leader and stuff, but he was invested in, you know, fixing Iraq and restoring peace, whatever. And, uh, his, his death was bad. I mean, we were looking for stuff and stuff got blown a block away.

• 50:18Speaker 01

  And that was not even two weeks in. And that was a little eye opening for everybody.

• 50:23Jocko Willink?

  How is it, um, getting your gear back on and going back out?

• 50:29Speaker 01

  At the time, it was kind of crazy. I mean, we'd go on patrols and somebody get killed and as a squad leader, you got to come back and like pack that kid's stuff up. And like you were just playing spades with them last night. And now you're packing his stuff up and sending it home. And that's, I think that's when it hit me. I was like, damn, you know, one of my good friend, Tom, just got blown up and then we already lost two soldiers. And then that's when I went and said the lights went off, but are on, but you know, that's when I knew this was serious. Cause the unit before, what was it? Two, two, eight, I think. The unit before us, they took casualties, but I don't think they told us how many, or it didn't really disseminate all the down to our level.

• 51:07Speaker 01

  Um, so it was eye opening for everybody. Um, but we'd go on, we'd go right back out. Like when you started the, the podcast, that memorial ceremony, I remember they called us in from sector, just so we could go to the memorial service. And we went right back out. Like we parked our Humvees, took our gear off, Kerry's aren't lands, I was squad leader. So I had to carry him on the plane or the bird. And smoked a cigarette, bullshit it for a little bit and we're gone. We went right back out until seven in the morning.

• 51:37Jocko Willink?

  That's another weird thing that I never, like when I was watching war movies and stuff as a kid. You, it's like your base was way over here and then you'd go on helicopters to some other place where you'd go fight. And then you'd get done fighting, you'd go back to, but I was like, no, you, you guys were out into meme. Like you go outside the gate, take a right, you're there.

• 51:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:56Jocko Willink?

  It's like going to the, the grocery store. Like it's, it's not like, okay. Hey, I'm going to go to this memorial service and then I'm going to go get in a vehicle and we're going to drive and then we're going to fly somewhere. And it's going to take an hour or two hours or three hours. It's like, no, I'm, when I get my vehicle and go up the front gate, 30 seconds later.

• 52:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:14Jocko Willink?

  You're into meme.

• 52:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think they got us a predator drone to like overwatch the, our area while we came in and we were probably back on base for like an hour. If, if that, you know, between getting on, getting back off and right back out.

• 52:28Speaker 01

  You talk about vengeance and stuff like that. It was on everybody's mind.

• 52:34Jocko Willink?

  And to me was like a, it's like a, what is it grid layout, you know, so the roads are kind of like western, you know, you're just like driving down a road, look left, look right. It's very, it seems like the layout is very western and there's normal looking buildings, you know, they're like, okay, this seems, this seems relatively normal. But it's anything but normal.

• 52:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:56Jocko Willink?

  And then what was your, uh, what was your op tempo like? Like how, how often were you going out? How often did you come back?

• 53:02Speaker 01

  Every day.

• 53:03Jocko Willink?

  Every day you're going out?

• 53:04Speaker 01

  Every day. Um, it was eight hour patrols. Um, I started out, you know, first aren't Charlotte rotate us. So I was on daytime patrols, which mornings is not bad. Afternoon patrol sucks. It's super hot. Everybody's tired, but, um, we would go out and eight hour patrols. You're probably going to get in contact of some kind.

• 53:23Jocko Willink?

  Were you in a Brad?

• 53:24Speaker 01

  No, I wasn't. We were in Humvee, um, and then we were walking. Um, we just stopped taking Humvees for one. We kept getting blown up. I mean, we went through 16 Humvees in like less than two months. Um, then we just started walking, um, cause figure safer that way.

• 53:38Jocko Willink?

  I think everybody felt that way. I know I, I, I hated being in Hummers and hated being in Bradley's like, for me being in Bradley, cause I'm not an armor guy. I was in the SEAL team. So like being in a vehicle is already a stretch, but put me in the back of a Bradley where it's like, I have no idea where we are. It's hotter than hell and you're just waiting for, to get blowed up is what it felt like.

• 53:59Speaker 01

  The first time I got blown up in a Bradley, um, just dust everywhere, loudest, you can't hear anything. Just nobody could understand what's going on. You just got rocked.

• 54:08Jocko Willink?

  How early was that for you in deployment?

• 54:10Speaker 01

  Uh, like a week.

• 54:12Jocko Willink?

  What, what were you doing in the Brad?

• 54:13Speaker 01

  Uh, they would drive us out to the end of the sector and we'd just walk, like we'd walk, you said like a grid system. We'd just walk down streets and we were slowly pushing our way into the city and making our presence known. But what we didn't know is, you know, the moves, they were coming behind us and intimidating the local population and watching us and filming us like, I know we sent y'all some intel stuff, like video cameras we captured and stuff, and they were just watching us. They were planning and just waiting, but. Yeah, as far as op tempo, like we'd go on a patrol.

• 54:40Jocko Willink?

  So wait a second. So you got blowed up. That was your first time getting blown up into Brad?

• 54:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:44Jocko Willink?

  Anyone get wounded?

• 54:45Speaker 01

  No.

• 54:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Also, that's early on the Brad's because they got bigger and bigger IEDs as time went on.

• 54:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So they probably had a, they probably had a ba, an IED meant for a Humvee, but they hit a Brad.

• 54:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:59Jocko Willink?

  Didn't get anyone.

• 54:59Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. And it was just, I remember Brad was like, it hit us and just blew right through. So I think we stopped and called EOD so they could do a post blast analysis or something. I don't know if we did that. And we're just, everybody, the adrenaline was kicking so much. But we go on patrol and come back and you think you got eight hours to, you know, recoup, but when we come off patrol, we're immediately on QRF for another eight hours. And then you get your eight hours to prep for the next patrol. So we would be off. Sometimes you get an hour, sometimes you get two hours, but just be laying there on your, on your cot, whatever, and hear an explosion. There, you don't have to say anything. Just get your gear on and we're going back out. And we had our own QRF. We had to respond to our own guys. So.

• 55:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Before we hit record today, I was, well, I guess I was essentially thanking you guys because we didn't have our own QRF. We didn't have enough people to QRF ourselves. So our QRF was always an Army or Marine Corps unit. It was always you guys coming to help us when we got into trouble. And, you know, so when you hear those explosions or you hear those big gunfights happen or you, you hear casualties happening, you guys would know it would be you coming to get us.

• 55:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. I, I know you remember, um, Charlie Med, you know, they would put out announcements over the intercom, you know, we need a positive blood.

• 56:07Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 56:07Speaker 01

  And everybody, if you, whatever it was, it didn't matter who it was. Like sometime I, I donated blood to, you know, an Iraqi fighter. I didn't know at that time, but you just, you go to give blood and it was blood, blood transfusion and you just, it happened every day.

• 56:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 56:21Speaker 01

  You just come across the loudspeakers and.

• 56:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. They'd have the MASH casualty recalls for blood. Yeah. We'd send guys up too.

• 56:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:29Jocko Willink?

  So your op tempo is eight hours on, eight hours QRF, eight hours prep for the next mission.

• 56:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:35Jocko Willink?

  Somewhere, at no time did I say sleep. At no time did I say PT. At no time did I say relax and call home.

• 56:42Speaker 01

  No. No, that was, we didn't do PT. I mean, PT was every day, but, um, you know.

• 56:49Speaker 01

  In the winter months, I think it would slow down a little bit, but not really much.

• 56:55Speaker 01

  Usually after we go out on a QRF mission, you have a little couple hours downtime, but you're just prepping for the next patrol. With the chow hall, if you're lucky. Luckily, we had good cooks. They were always there for us. I did have one situation where I just got off of patrol and we were nasty. I'm covered in dirt, blood and sweat. And I had a major that was standing at the door. So we couldn't come in like that. And I was like, bro, we're going back out in like 30 minutes. Like you're gonna let my guys eat. I got into it with a major. I know, I think I called Captain Lance Song or Captain Graham at the time. And I was like, this is what's going on? He was like, I got it. Took care of that, but.

• 57:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, they were generally pretty friendly to the guys that were out getting after it. That's a, that's kind of the vibe that I got because, you know, I, I had one of my CB guys who, we had a, we got mortared and we got like a big water tank blown up. He went out and like within 24 hours, actually it was probably within 12 hours. He had his new water tank. You know, it got like, I was probably like a thousand gallon water tank. He got it back and got a new one and blah, blah, blah. And I was like, I was like, hey, chief, really appreciate you getting that thing done. He goes, hey, sir, as long as I just don't want no more boom boom in the camp.

• 58:09Speaker 01

  I didn't even know what a CB was until we were there and they, they helped us out a lot. I mean, they would come in and build bunks for us and stuff. And we started sleeping on cots and all of a sudden they were building those like bunk beds and stuff, hooking up AC units and definitely shout out to those guys.

• 58:23Jocko Willink?

  So as this is all going on, do you have, how much, how much of your thought process is about like, hey, what progress are we making? What's the overall plan here? Were you getting briefed on that stuff? Were you more thinking day to day, this is what we're doing?

• 58:35Speaker 01

  It was day to day. I mean, we had target packages every night at that point.

• 58:40Speaker 01

  I didn't think we were making any progress. It didn't seem like we were. Definitely didn't seem like we were. Um, if anything, the enemy was getting smarter. Uh, genius tactics. I gotta give them credit for that.

• 58:51Jocko Willink?

  What were some of the things that impressed you?

• 58:52Speaker 01

  Um, so their pressure plate, the way they detonated the pressure plates, um, you know, there would be a house in the courtyard and there'd be a a street, a tiny little canal road, and there'd be a garden on the other side. We found one where they had a garden hose. They had somehow got the positive negative wire through the hose and we drove over and that that triggered the IED. Or where they would take the side of the sidewalk out and they would encase a one five five around like styrofoam and paint it to look like the sidewalk and put it back. Um, or just simple things like they'd send a just cardboard just laying in the street, positive and negative wire. We just run over that, detonated it. Um, and then when we got the, the red and blue system, the jamming systems,

• 59:33Speaker 01

  they figured out that we could, cause they were using cell phones or the two-way radios to detonate them. Um, they figured out we were jamming them. So they would have kids out in the street with remote control cars and they would try to see which vehicle had the jammers on it. And it's, I mean, gotta give them credit for that. I mean, they're very smart.

• 59:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. One of the things that, that impressed me was they would burn a tire in the street. That would melt the tar. And so one person would burn a tire and then someone else would go and dig the tar out. And then someone else would go dig a hole. And then someone else would put a bomb in the hole and then someone else would rig it back up and then someone else would fill the hole back in and then someone else would put the tar back. And then once they put the tar back on, this is what impressed me was it was like, they would then put dust on it and sweep it and then unsweep it. And so it just, you wouldn't be able to see it. It just looked like the freaking road.

• 1:00:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:19Jocko Willink?

  Cause it's not like the roads are there, but beautiful pavement anyways. But it would just, the effort that they would go through over time to make this happen and do it and in a clandestine way where it's like, oh, they are, this is their neighborhood.

• 1:00:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. There's trash and debris everywhere. I heard one crazy thing. We had a, the finance seer, the IED cell. Like, I don't know where we got the intel from. We knew it was him. We arrested this dude three times. And every time he gets out, we didn't have anything to, to keep him locked up for a while. And, uh, one of our lieutenants got the idea, you know, we're gonna use the propaganda against them. So we snatched them up. And we would take them to a corner to meme and get out, take pictures of them, you know, with the cell phone, you know, with Americans and take them to the other corner and do that. Take pictures. The next day we found him, hands and feet. Tied up behind his back, forehead split open and they had sewn a 155 round in his back.

• 1:01:12Speaker 01

  We were like, yeah, that's him, but also there's wires coming out of his back. So savages. Absolute savages.

• 1:01:23Jocko Willink?

  As time is going on day to day, what's your mentality? You know, at first you're, you know, you're in Kuwait, you're fired up like, we're gonna make this happen. We want to go to war. You get there, your guys are taking casualties out of the gate. You're losing guys out of the, out of the gate. Does it become at some point? I always feel like things just become a kind of a blur of just like, it was interesting when I had, I know you said, you mentioned, uh, you've listened to the podcast with General McFarland. It wasn't until I did that podcast that I realized the timeline. In my mind, it was all these kind of separate events that had happened. It seemed in my mind, weeks, if not months apart, but they were literally two, three days apart.

• 1:02:02Jocko Willink?

  But every operation was so massive and so much moving parts that it seemed like this one singular event and then another singular event. But in reality, it's like, no, we were just, oh, that was three days later. That was two days later. Did you get into like a blur mindset? What was going on in your head?

• 1:02:17Speaker 01

  Absolutely. Um, so, you know, like they all ran together. Um, you know, we'd have some high profile missions, but we'd just get, you know, one night, like Tuesday night, we'd get, go, go get this guy. And those were cool, but then there was always something that popped off with those things. Um, that would, you know, that's how you remember it. Like so and so got shot. So and so got blown up. And that's how you remember it. And it wasn't until, uh, let's see about three or four years ago, I was listening to Joe Rogan's podcast and he talked about sensor deprivation tanks. And there was one opened up in Columbus, Georgia, and I went and did that. And it was like the second or third time. And I just remember there, laying there and like stuff just pops up, like missions that pop up or like certain memories that I didn't, they're just buried in the back of my head. And I think that's where a lot of PTSD stems from that people don't realize.

• 1:03:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, you can't, you can't talk about stuff if, if it all blurs together. You know, I used to joke that everything we did was legit and legal, but we were always under investigation. And they sent in a, you know, Army CID or whatever, come down and investigate us. I'd be like, which mission? You know, like what, which one are you talking about? And it was hard, you know, to remember like, we did this last night, we did this night before, you know, so.

• 1:03:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that, there's no doubt of the, the amount of scrutiny we were all under in terms of like rules of engagement and, you know, collateral damage, um, like there was investigations. We, I mean, my guys had to, had to sign a sworn shooter statement.

• 1:03:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:40Jocko Willink?

  After every operation, everything killed.

• 1:03:42Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:03:42Jocko Willink?

  I don't know if you guys had to do that.

• 1:03:43Speaker 01

  Absolutely, yeah.

• 1:03:44Jocko Willink?

  And at the time, you know, my guys were like, oh, what's this for? And I said, hey, listen, in the future, someone's going to dig into this and be like, well, why'd you kill this guy? Here's why we killed this guy. Here's what we seen. Here's why the shot was taken. And so it was a good move.

• 1:03:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:57Jocko Willink?

  But at the time, it feels like, you know, it feels like unwanted scrutiny.

• 1:04:02Speaker 01

  It feels like you're getting it from both ends.

• 1:04:03Jocko Willink?

  But one of the best things I learned from the, from the first, the 506 over on the other side of Craigador, was like, the attitude of like, come investigate. Like, if you think something is wrong, please come down here and investigate. And I said that over and over again. Oh, you think something's going on? Please come and investigate. You know, send people down here. We'll take them out. You want to go see?

• 1:04:22Speaker 01

  Come with us.

• 1:04:23Jocko Willink?

  Come on out. Come and get it. Like, you want to see what's going on? You want to see why people are getting shot? Why, why the enemy is getting shot? Why our kill count's so high? Come and, yeah, come down here, bring a notebook and bring some body armor.

• 1:04:35Speaker 01

  Cause that's what's gonna happen. And everyone out.

• 1:04:39Jocko Willink?

  You know, and that's another cool thing that you just talked about was, you know, when people talk about, when they think of like special operations missions, they think of like, oh, we get this target and we go out and hit this target. Well, it didn't take us long to figure out in Ramadi that. If we've got a target, because we had great, our, my intel shop, my guys were freaking awesome and they worked in close conjunction, but we had really good forms of intelligence. I'll leave it at that. And we would get targets all the time. And it didn't take me very long to realize, well, I could get my guys, spin them up, put them in Humvees, drive them out into town, have them dismount, have them go hit a target. By the way, with Iraqi soldiers,

• 1:05:21Jocko Willink?

  you know, come back and that's what they'd be doing for the next 12 hours. Or I could call you guys up and be like, hey, there's a guy in building 18 Alpha. You guys, cool. We'll call you in 20 minutes. We literally, they call us like you're, you're, you know, platoon commanders or company commanders or call something like, hey, we got the guy. Yeah, cool. Send him, we'll send him our detainment facility. We'll be there and we'll do the interrogations. Cause you guys were out in the streets and you were out in the neighborhood so much. And we had, obviously we had 38, 137, the 506. So in the downtown area, it was like totally covered by US military. And you guys knew the neighborhoods and knew the buildings so well, you probably knew the guy that you probably be like, oh yeah, we already talked to that guy. We talked to him yesterday. We'll go talk to him again. We'll go grab him.

• 1:06:05Jocko Willink?

  So the cooperation that we had with you guys was,

• 1:06:11Jocko Willink?

  it was awesome. And you know, occasionally we'd be like, oh yeah, there's this guy or there's this particular threat or something like that. And so we'd roll out, I think, but we only did like, we probably only did like 35 or 40 actual direct action missions where we went out and hit a target. Most of the time we just call you guys up. When I say you guys, I mean, we'd call up you guys, whatever battalion owned the battle space. And you guys would just get it done in like 12 minutes. Like, yeah, we are, we're there. I had conversations like, you're in the building right now? They're like, yeah. Okay, cool. Let me get my intel guys and get the name for you. Cause you guys have hit the target so fast. And that's, that was the, that was the idea of the permanent presence inside these neighborhoods was that you guys were just always there.

• 1:06:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. I got to the point where we were doing so many, you know, raids like that, that. Before we started doing the SKTs, you know, the small kill teams that instead of doing like a hard entry, you know, where you blast a door, throw a flashbang and stuff, we would try to sneak in. I got videos that we would like, we snuck in someone's house and one of our dudes jumped in the bed with them because we were that quiet, you know, or we'd like step over people to like clear the rest of the house and then wake them up and then zip strip and stuff, but like we got surgical with it.

• 1:07:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that was a definite change. Same thing for us, you know, this idea of breaching the front door, which always seems exciting and it always seems, and there are some tactical advantages to it. But the tactical advantage of sneaking into the building and just getting full control before you wake anybody up, that doesn't get, there's not much more advantages you can get than that, that mission right there. So as these things blur together in your head, are you start, are you feeling any combat fatigue? Are you feeling, you know, uh, the odds starting to click up, you know, I've, I feel like, you know, we're playing a little bit of Russian roulette here and you start rolling the dice every day and you're rolling the dice every eight hours. Right? Every hour to roll, roll the dice.

• 1:08:03Jocko Willink?

  Were you thinking about that or were you disconnected to the point where it's like, this is your job, this is what you're doing?

• 1:08:08Speaker 01

  I think it was about a month then where I've made the conscious decision, you know, it, it's gonna happen, you know, we've already lost so many guys, we're taking so many hits that my time's my time, hopefully it's quick, you know, hopefully sniper round or an IED or something catastrophic, hopefully I don't like lose legs or something bad, like I, I just accepted it. And between that, you just live off adrenaline, nicotine and hate, I guess.

• 1:08:33Jocko Willink?

  I think we just made a T-shirt.

• 1:08:37Jocko Willink?

  Adrenaline, nicotine and hate. That's a long, that's a long, uh, stretch of time in your brain.

• 1:08:46Jocko Willink?

  The casualties keep coming for you guys. I know on, uh, you guys lost, uh, Staff Sergeant Swanson as well. That's what, July, I think.

• 1:08:57Jocko Willink?

  And again,

• 1:09:00Jocko Willink?

  all you can do is go to the memorial service. Go to the angel flight. Get your gear back on and go back out.

• 1:09:09Jocko Willink?

  Over and over and over again.

• 1:09:13Jocko Willink?

  Um, I know you mentioned that you remember a little bit about like setting security for Colonel Dean to go meet with some sheiks and not realizing at the time what a huge impact that those meetings were going to have on the war.

• 1:09:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, um, I don't know how I got attached to his PSD. I think Captain Lanson was out with him or something. I was just part of the whole convoy, but I remember sitting outside his compound and, you know, we're obviously out of security. So we'd sit with him and some of his guys would come up and bullshit with us and Chevy Aztec nickel plated AK, like just hanging out with them and.

• 1:09:57Jocko Willink?

  That's another T-shirt dude. A Chevy. A Pontiac Aztec.

• 1:10:02Speaker 01

  I got pictures like sitting, yeah, let's go. Sitting next to dude, it was a shorty too. It wasn't even like a full size. It was bad, but just like hanging out with these guys. And I was like, what? I didn't know what we were doing at the time, you know, that's above my pay grade. So I know we're just there and yeah, at the time I had no idea what we were doing. I thought we were just talking to like the mayor or something, but low and behold, you know, we're changing stuff.

• 1:10:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that was the beginning of the, the Al-Anbar awakening. Did you get any leave during when you were in Ramadi? Did you go home on leave at all?

• 1:10:34Speaker 01

  I took my mid-term leave right before we went to Ramadi when we were still in Kuwait, which I'm very fortunate was the way it happened. Cause I couldn't imagine, you know, leaving Ramadi and coming back, you know, I don't, it's hard to turn your brain off from that. One, it just to go back and like, you know, be back in civilian world or whatever, and then have to go back into that shit. So I'm glad I was fortunate enough to, you know, do it before we went up to Ramadi, but a lot of guys weren't, you know. Colonel Dean said he went in the middle of the deployment. I just can't, it's hard to turn your brain off from something like that. So.

• 1:11:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I definitely, like I said, we do shorter deployments and so I haven't been in a position of going home and then having to come back to it. But I'll tell you, that seems like it would be very, very difficult to do. Very, very difficult to like, oh, I'm about to get killed, go home, be in total peace and harmony with your family. And then know that as soon as you get home, okay, I got two weeks and then be right back in the shit again.

• 1:11:38Speaker 01

  Uh, you know, measured up like, uh, American Sniper, you know, and Chris Cole comes home and he's watching stuff on the news. You know, something like that, like you see, you know what's going on. You know more than anybody else does and at that, you know, you gotta go back too. So I'm just glad that wasn't a situation.

• 1:11:53Jocko Willink?

  Did you see the movie Warfare?

• 1:11:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I was gonna bring that up.

• 1:11:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Uh, well, one thing that's interesting about that is I was talking to Colonel McFarlane about it and he was, he was home on leave.

• 1:12:03Speaker 01

  Really?

• 1:12:03Jocko Willink?

  Yep. He, cause he asked me, he was like, hey, what, when did this happen? Like, I'm trying to remember if this was this or this was that. And I said, no, this was November 19th. And he goes, oh, I was home on leave. And you know, he's, and he sings praises of his, his subordinate leadership. Because when he was home on leave, like they did some of the really successful operations. And he's really proud of that because he wasn't even there to

• 1:12:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:25Jocko Willink?

  to take part in them. But yeah, uh, so you did see Warfare?

• 1:12:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, uh, by far the best, you know, war depiction of what we went through I've ever seen. Um, and I, I watched it with my wife and then eventually I watched it with my 17 year old son. I wanted to make sure, one, I watched it first by myself. So it's just kind of get the reaction. I didn't go to theaters. I bought it off Amazon. Um, then I watched it with my wife and you can't really explain to your spouses what you went through. You can't really like, you know, now we got shot at, we got blown up, but until you see something like that, like that was by far the best depiction of what we went through.

• 1:12:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:59Speaker 01

  Um, hands down.

• 1:13:00Jocko Willink?

  I went and saw it in the theater. I went with my wife as well and it was interesting. I sat down to watch it and all of a sudden I hear, hey, Jocko, and I look over and it's another guy from Task Unit Bruiser when he's with his wife. I'm like, what's up, bro? Then we sat there and watched it and then it was over and the theater emptied out and we're sitting there like, okay. I think, and I, I haven't really directly asked my wife. I mean, my wife was kind of like, uh, I mean, obviously she thought it was really, uh, moving movie, but I haven't really asked her like what she

• 1:13:35Jocko Willink?

  Thought it seemed like from her perspective like I like I would like to say like did it seem crazy Did it seem like there was like a lot of mayhem going on I think obviously it was like that so she'd be like absolutely But we haven't really had that deep conversation about it and the other interesting thing is like she knows Elliot And so there's like another connection there so I don't know I'll have to ask her about that

• 1:13:59Speaker 01

  Yeah Props to the dudes that made it

• 1:14:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah yeah and the guy that made it just you know well he was there

• 1:14:05Speaker 01

  Yeah

• 1:14:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah

• 1:14:09Jocko Willink?

  So you watched it three times because I've only seen it once

• 1:14:11Speaker 01

  Yeah

• 1:14:12Jocko Willink?

  How was it the second time how was it the third time

• 1:14:14Speaker 01

  I mean what is bad That's that same comment my son made when we finished watching he said so you watch it three times now Yeah but I had to watch it by myself first just because I make sure you know Wanted what it was gonna do to me I don't know if that was a good idea or a bad idea but it was fine and then I made sure that was no distractions and watching my wife and went through that

• 1:14:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah I told those guys because I had Nick or sorry Elliot and Joe on the podcast the two guys that got wounded they came on the podcast and then like Telling them you know what it was like leaving Ramadi and knowing what those guys were getting into and You know how it is man like it's kind of like you said when you turned over the 228 the 228 they probably told all your leadership like hey it's really freaking bad out there And of course leadership's like yeah it's not that bad like we're gonna go It's like the the guys from team five like same thing like we're like hey I remember telling them and I said this on the podcast like You guys are going to take casualties and no one ever thinks they're gonna take casualties you know and certainly no one ever thinks they're gonna be the casualty Right it always happens to someone else

• 1:15:26Jocko Willink?

  But that is a good, um, you know, some of the images that they put in with the guys walking or the moos walking around and walking in and out of buildings and like looking and not looking and talking on radios and not talking on radios and snipers are like, wait a second, what are you seeing? Well, I got something here and I got movement. We got building with and you're hearing the radio reports. It's like all that stuff is very Ramadi ish.

• 1:15:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Like, can you shoot a guy holding a cell phone looking at your position?

• 1:15:55Speaker 01

  Probably get away with it, but you know, at that time you can't. I mean, he's not doing anything. He might just be calling home, but you, you know what he's doing. You know what he's doing. You know, the guy at, uh, I shot a dude at the university, um, right before we did that big mission. Like we were doing overwatch to see what they're doing, just looking at dudes and it was two dudes with a shovel and a wheelbarrow. And I was like, I, you know, that gut feeling. I was like, there ain't no reason to be digging right there. Uh, where he was digging, I ended up shooting him and low and behold, he had a det cord and he had a pickaxe and they're putting something in, so.

• 1:16:29Jocko Willink?

  They weren't doing freaking road construction in 2006. That's the same thing with like people with binos. It's like you're not bird watching and, and, and by the way, someone with the radio, cause the cell phone towers were actually down.

• 1:16:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:43Jocko Willink?

  And sometimes people get reported as they were talking on a cell phone and you could see it looked like they're talking on a cell phone, but they're talking on a radio.

• 1:16:49Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:16:50Jocko Willink?

  But, uh, even those guys, it's like, um, they're coordinating an attack and it's really, as soon as you see maneuvering taking place and now you got a guy on the radio. Okay. Well, this guy is no longer talking to his grandma.

• 1:17:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:02Jocko Willink?

  This guy is coordinating an attack on coalition forces and he's going to get killed. That's what's happening.

• 1:17:07Speaker 01

  The other thing, uh, we did mosque monitors a lot, which I thought was kind of dumb at first, but then like looking back and, you know. They're called a prayer. They give like the whole sermon over the mosque. So they literally called everybody in for the jihad. Yeah. And they're like, bring them in and.

• 1:17:24Jocko Willink?

  Did you guys have interpreters with us?

• 1:17:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. We would have actual mosque warrant emissions. We'd go out and we'd just park somewhere and wait for, you know, call a prayer and listen. And the tour would be like, this ain't good.

• 1:17:33Jocko Willink?

  Yep. Like we had, we had both Iraqi soldiers and interpreters, like American or coalition interpreters. Yeah. Same thing. You'd be like, uh, this isn't going to go. They're coming right now. Cause they're straight up saying, hey, it is time for jihad. That's like what they are saying. The time for jihad is now.

• 1:17:49Speaker 01

  Part of the religion.

• 1:17:50Jocko Willink?

  In this area.

• 1:17:51Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:17:51Jocko Willink?

  Like assemble at the soccer stadium, assemble here. Like that's what they're straight up doing.

• 1:17:55Speaker 01

  I don't know if they knew we were listening to them or they just didn't give a shit. But I mean, that's, that's part of their religion. So.

• 1:18:03Jocko Willink?

  Um, as, as time is progressing, um,

• 1:18:09Jocko Willink?

  did you feel like your awareness, your combat, like how good did you feel like you and your team were getting?

• 1:18:16Speaker 01

  Uh, more confident as we were going. Um, luckily I didn't have any serious injuries or casualties in my squad at the time. Um, I, you know, everybody had their own nickname for their squad or whatever. I don't care what ours was, but, um, yeah, we were just getting good. Um, I know you talked Colonel Dean about, um, scooping up that E bomb. That was my squad. Like we were setting up for an SKT. That's one of the houses we actually snuck into. Um, and we got, we caught the dudes jumping the wall and one of my soldiers like grabbed him. Cause the mosque was right there behind the house and we grabbed him. We're like, where are you going? What are you doing? I got a little suspect. He's like, oh, my E bomb. I was like, oh, I don't know. E bombs don't jump walls. You can use the door.

• 1:19:01Jocko Willink?

  E bombs don't rerun it.

• 1:19:03Speaker 01

  But, uh, so we scooped him up and at the time I had no idea the impact that would have. Um, so we got him and called him up and I remember some, uh, some black SUV showed up and took him away.

• 1:19:16Jocko Willink?

  And how did you feel like your guys were handling it like on your team?

• 1:19:19Speaker 01

  Ah, they were getting, they were getting their own confidence. You know, we'd go hit a target package or we'd do SKTs. You know, small kill teams we'd set up, we'd walk in, Bradley's drop us off one into town, we walk in. We'd take a building or sometimes we would go into one building and then we'd use the rooftops and go a couple of downs. So they couldn't like target us. Um, and we'd set up and we'd catch them putting their IDs in and we'd smoke them. And that would just build confidence. Like we felt like we were protecting our dudes that were going out the next morning. That's exactly what we were doing, but we were getting good at it too.

• 1:19:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Damn, to me was a freaking IED nightmare. It really was. Those IEDs were massive too, like massive. Like especially was hor- was horrific was when they started building IEDs to use against Bradleys and tanks.

• 1:20:07Speaker 01

  The shaped charges?

• 1:20:08Jocko Willink?

  But then they would hit Humvees with them and it would just be like total devastation.

• 1:20:13Speaker 01

  I mean, for a, a mind resistant Cougar to get cut in half, I mean, that's, you know, they would, they would take one of the manhole cover that Colonel Dean talked about, and then, you know, copper plates that would just make an EMP or EFP.

• 1:20:26Jocko Willink?

  EFP, yeah.

• 1:20:26Speaker 01

  Um, and then they'd add the accelerant and it is.

• 1:20:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's another thing I've, I've always kind of talked about is the damn vehicle graveyard. When you're driving out the main gate and you're driving by seventy-five or a hundred freaking vehicles that are just twisted wreckage. And you're like, wait a second, are, did, did all those vehicles right there come from the city that I'm driving out to right now?

• 1:20:53Speaker 01

  We took fourteen Bradleys to Ramadi, didn't bring any back. Bradleys. I mean, we had, we went through two fleets of Humvees. I mean, they, they would just get annihilated and up armored Humvees, oh Bradley, like to take a Bradley out, that's, that's serious.

• 1:21:06Jocko Willink?

  You know what, it was a Bradley way.

• 1:21:07Speaker 01

  Uh, thirty-three tons, I think. Don't know if I would do that, but I'm pretty sure that's it.

• 1:21:11Jocko Willink?

  That's insane. And they took out nine, I think it was nine Abrams.

• 1:21:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:21:16Jocko Willink?

  Which is almost seventy tons.

• 1:21:17Speaker 01

  And I think it's like six inches of armor on the bottom of Bradley. And, um, Specialist Schaefer, um, when he was killed, he was a driver. And the IED that hit, it underneath his driver's seat and actually forced him up, like that's what killed him, the impact. But like the amount of explosives it takes for that. We had one brother that got flipped over on its side and the barrel just happened to be pointing to the side. It got flipped over. The I got a picture. The barrel was buried in concrete, like in the cement, like up to six inches. It's like laying on its side. Barrel holding it up. So that's a lot of explosives.

• 1:21:53Jocko Willink?

  You guys lose Schaefer on September 13th and then and then Lazeran, which we started this thing off on September 26th. And that was pretty close to you guys going home.

• 1:22:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:22:05Jocko Willink?

  When did you actually head home?

• 1:22:08Speaker 01

  November, I believe.

• 1:22:09Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:22:10Speaker 01

  Two thousand and six or seven.

• 1:22:12Jocko Willink?

  How how were you guys doing at the end, coming towards the end of deployment?

• 1:22:15Speaker 01

  We didn't stop. Cop dealer was the last thing that we did and my squad happened to be the squad that got left there. And we didn't have any Bradley's left, so it was time for us to like rip out. And my squad walked from cop dealer all the way back to the front gate because nobody could pick us up. Like, we didn't stop. Our op tempo was all literally up to the day we left.

• 1:22:38Jocko Willink?

  And cop dealer was by the university, right?

• 1:22:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, a couple kilometers, like three or four kilometers, but.

• 1:22:46Jocko Willink?

  Did you skirt the city?

• 1:22:48Speaker 01

  No, we walked down the middle of the street. I think we all just said, fuck it. Like, like, I'm sorry, excuse me.

• 1:22:53Jocko Willink?

  Do I want to walk four clicks through a little bit safer? We're going straight through to me.

• 1:22:58Speaker 01

  I think we were just trying to catch with our pants down, maybe, I guess. Just walk through and, you know, let's see what we could. Let's get in one more fight or, you know, one more thing that we're going. They didn't know we were leaving. So also, nobody replaces the cop dealer that I recall that we just left. They just told us to pack it up and come home and just walk back down the streets.

• 1:23:25Jocko Willink?

  So you guys pack up.

• 1:23:28Jocko Willink?

  Did you? Did you know when your last mission was?

• 1:23:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was it.

• 1:23:31Jocko Willink?

  That was it?

• 1:23:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, we we were doing the right left seat, right seat ride with the other unit. It was first ID, which ironically is the unit I went to after that. I was like, can't get a break. But I know ripping out with them and they had, you know, static positions. So we weren't like alone to me. You know, we had stack positions. We had rather checking in with them and stuff.

• 1:23:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think they told us, y'all come in. That's it. Yeah, I think two days later, we were out of there.

• 1:24:00Jocko Willink?

  And then it's back to Germany.

• 1:24:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:03Jocko Willink?

  And how are you doing when you're heading, when you, when you get back to Germany?

• 1:24:07Speaker 01

  Um.

• 1:24:10Speaker 01

  Numb, I guess, best way to describe it. It's hard, like, I know when I got blown up, they had a thing where they were calling the wives. I was like, why are we doing this? They don't need to do that. Like, if we're not seriously interested in a new call, but they would call the wives for any incident like that.

• 1:24:24Jocko Willink?

  Did they keep that up for the whole deployment?

• 1:24:26Speaker 01

  Oh, no, they didn't start until like the last three or four months. But. So I was like, I'm gonna get ahead of this. And I called my wife at the time and I was like, I got blown up, but both my eardrums are ruptured and I couldn't hear shit. So I'm yelling. You know, I got blown up. She's like, what? I don't know if you can hear me or not, but I can't hear myself. So I got blown up. Just in case somebody calls you, let you know, like, I'm okay, whatever. Okay, you know? Tell them what okay is. So. I felt, I felt like at the time that would be better to hear from me than like somebody calling and say, hey, torn vaccine got blown up, but. So. Coming back to Germany, it was, uh, it was even wilder than it was the first deployment. Like dudes.

• 1:25:07Speaker 01

  I remember going to check on my guys the first night, like drove, driving from housing, going to the barracks and pulling up on the barracks and there's, you know, a three story beer bong with a garden hose. Just, I mean, ain't drinking a year and now you're pouring liquor and beer or whatever into like just trying to. I feel like dudes were just numbing themselves even more and just same thing, reintegration was like three or four days and everybody just checking the box, checking the box.

• 1:25:34Jocko Willink?

  When, when you go into reintegration, like for the, is it like a psyche valve that they're doing?

• 1:25:39Speaker 01

  It's a whole bunch of different stations. I think it was like the gym and they had it all like sectioned off and you go to like, go to audio, take a hearing test. You go to TBI, which it wasn't really a thing back then. So they were kind of figuring out.

• 1:25:52Speaker 01

  You just go to general med and you know, you. All different states, whatever they were, I can't remember what they were, but you had, well, you walked around this checklist and you had to get it signed off.

• 1:26:01Jocko Willink?

  So the quicker you get done with that, the quicker you get back to the three foot beer ball.

• 1:26:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh, three story.

• 1:26:07Jocko Willink?

  Three story.

• 1:26:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. They were on the three, they had a garden hose, a garden hose.

• 1:26:12Jocko Willink?

  Oh, man.

• 1:26:13Speaker 01

  And dudes are going downtown. I don't know why they didn't lock us down on the base, but dudes going downtown, Bonhoez is tiny community. Like when we left, the community fell apart because there was no income. So when we got back, dudes were just wild. I don't know if the Germans were ready for that or not, but um, getting in fights, just trashing stuff. I mean.

• 1:26:33Jocko Willink?

  And how were you doing at this point?

• 1:26:36Speaker 01

  I mean, I was at home at the time with my wife, so I mean.

• 1:26:40Jocko Willink?

  Are you sleeping all right?

• 1:26:42Speaker 01

  I don't remember. I know I was drinking a lot.

• 1:26:44Jocko Willink?

  Just getting after the German beer.

• 1:26:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's just, I don't, yeah, that was all a days. I mean, they're just waiting to go home because everybody went home. I think it was, what, even two weeks before we all got like block leave. So everybody's just trying to get through the process and get home.

• 1:27:02Jocko Willink?

  And then where'd you go and leave?

• 1:27:03Speaker 01

  I went back home to Gwinnett County, Georgia, Snellville area. And then I went up to my family's house in Hawassie, um, North Georgia. And we just, you know, we tried to cover everything, tried to scare everybody at the same time, which cramming it all in, you know? It's, I don't know if that was the best idea, but you got to see everybody, you know? One, we've been in Germany for so long and coming home and just got out of war and got to see everybody. So it was nonstop and going everywhere, doing everything. I think that was kind of a good thing because it can be distracted, I guess.

• 1:27:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I imagine it could be good in that way.

• 1:27:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:43Jocko Willink?

  And how, it's interesting because you, you did that first deployment where it was relatively mellow.

• 1:27:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:50Jocko Willink?

  And you know, you got this big hero's welcome and everything, and now you come back from this deployment where it was anything but.

• 1:27:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:57Jocko Willink?

  Mellow.

• 1:27:57Speaker 01

  But my family didn't know any of that.

• 1:27:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:59Speaker 01

  They didn't know anything that we went through and didn't tell them. So I mean, it's kind of faking the funk as you go through and just kind of acting like everything's fine and smile on your face and.

• 1:28:11Jocko Willink?

  Carry on.

• 1:28:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, pretty much.

• 1:28:13Jocko Willink?

  What was the next, what was your next assignment?

• 1:28:16Speaker 01

  Uh, so we came back and then a huge chunk of our, our company was all getting orders to leave at the same time.

• 1:28:25Jocko Willink?

  Weren't you gonna go be a drill sergeant or something?

• 1:28:27Speaker 01

  Well, first I was, I was gonna go to third ID in Savannah, Fort Stewart.

• 1:28:31Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:28:32Speaker 01

  Um, so, you know, we were looking forward to that. One, um, part of the leave was I knocked my ex-wife up at the time, so we had it. We were pregnant, so we were going back to the States and, uh, we're gonna have a baby. Um, looking forward to that. Which we did actually try for, so we decided we want to wait till we got back to the States. Um, so we did that.

• 1:28:54Speaker 01

  The night we left was a little rough on her. But all the guys at the hotel together got trashed and stuff. I don't know how I made it back, but, um, so I was supposed to go to Fort Stewart, Georgia and.

• 1:29:05Jocko Willink?

  So it was gonna be like getting stationed by your home?

• 1:29:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, or at least.

• 1:29:08Jocko Willink?

  And that's where she's, that's where she was from as well?

• 1:29:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. So we would be like three hours from home.

• 1:29:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, which is a hell of a lot closer than Germany.

• 1:29:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. So, but two or three days before we were supposed to fly, like our household goods are gone. We got nothing. Like we're back to the army furniture where we started.

• 1:29:25Speaker 01

  Three days before, like I'm checking my mill purse, my army email and stuff, and my orders got changed to Fort Hood, Texas. Um, we're standing up a new light infantry unit, first ID, two, two of a tree. I was like, whoa, that's a, that's a chicken and nuts right there. So I guess we're going to Texas. So our, our household goods were on a boat already, like on the way to Georgia and we had to get to Texas and, uh, you know, I decided we're not gonna live on post, we're gonna live off post. So had to rent a house. It was my first time doing that.

• 1:29:55Speaker 01

  We did have furniture and all that stuff at that time. Um, so.

• 1:29:59Jocko Willink?

  Didn't have to get the army.

• 1:30:00Speaker 01

  No. Grandfather clock and all the, all the stuff. And we got set up in Texas and my oldest son was born in October.

• 1:30:10Speaker 01

  That was crazy. It was literally a brand new unit. They disbanded two, two infantry and then restarted it at Fort Hood. And I was one of the first NCOs to get there. Um, so out of all of us that left.

• 1:30:25Speaker 01

  They just spread us across a new battalion. So I was like the only NCO in Charlie Company, two two infantry for like three, four months. When I got brand new privates, like out of base training. I was like, I don't know what to do with y'all. Really, nobody's telling me what to do. I don't know what to do. So we just did PT, we'd hang around for a little bit and do some training and turn them home. And finally, we got a first sergeant. Appreciate you holding it down. Here's what's going. Then, you know, you start filling up and stuff. And they're like, we're going to Afghanistan in 11 months. I'm like, Jesus Christ, I can't catch a break. And then, yeah. I was like, Afghanistan, that's a, that's a different ballgame.

• 1:31:07Speaker 01

  So about three months before we were supposed to go to Afghanistan, I came down on drill sergeant orders.

• 1:31:13Jocko Willink?

  So you, so you did like a workup with these guys?

• 1:31:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, we did everything. Yeah. Um, I had my own squad. I was a platoon leader for a little, a platoon sergeant for a little while. I had a whole platoon. We were ready to go Afghanistan.

• 1:31:26Jocko Willink?

  How'd you like, how'd you like being in those leadership positions?

• 1:31:28Speaker 01

  Bob, I love it. I mean, I liked it.

• 1:31:32Jocko Willink?

  And are you at this point thinking you're going to be in the army for 20 years, 30 years, whatever?

• 1:31:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:38Speaker 01

  Actually, I just on the end of reenlist- reenlistment.

• 1:31:41Jocko Willink?

  What's that?

• 1:31:42Speaker 01

  Uh, where you just, the rest of my time. So I was in like eight years and I was like.

• 1:31:47Jocko Willink?

  12 more years?

• 1:31:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, 12 more years.

• 1:31:48Jocko Willink?

  You get a bonus for that?

• 1:31:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was like 15 grand.

• 1:31:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:52Speaker 01

  Well, the way the army does it, they don't get it all at once. It gets taxed like 15 times.

• 1:31:56Jocko Willink?

  Navy does the same thing.

• 1:31:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:59Jocko Willink?

  It looks good on paper.

• 1:32:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, right. Sounds good when they're signing it too.

• 1:32:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, cause if you think, cause well, the way the Navy did it was they would, you'd get half of it now. But then the rest of it would be divided over the rest of your time. So you got like five, five, yeah, they got taxed. So you probably got like four grand in your pocket.

• 1:32:16Speaker 01

  I know some of my SF buddies would have, like, they would get deployed to a combat zone just so they would get all taxed for you. It must be nice, but. Yeah, like I was prepared to go like mentally. One, I had a son at the time. So I was mentally preparing myself to go to Afghanistan. And then I came out on drill sergeant orders and I was relieved. I was embarrassed and then I was like, I don't torn like.

• 1:32:41Jocko Willink?

  So do they, how do you get selected for drill sergeant?

• 1:32:45Speaker 01

  Um, it's the top one percent of your MOS. Um, I don't know. I guess they just look through files and trying to find somebody like spots to fill and.

• 1:32:56Jocko Willink?

  So is it considered um, like a good thing when you get selected for drill sergeant? Okay, cause I, I don't know.

• 1:33:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, it's really good for your career. Um, guaranteed to get promoted when you get done, if not while you're there.

• 1:33:10Speaker 01

  And so I, I was looking at that aspect, like I just re-listened in depth, going on the trail, trail to be a drill sergeant, um, do that. And I'll deploy. So I was like, I'll be safe for at least two years.

• 1:33:24Jocko Willink?

  God.

• 1:33:24Speaker 01

  Um.

• 1:33:26Jocko Willink?

  Cause they've been, they've even, you've been earning your share.

• 1:33:30Speaker 01

  I was like, at least I get two years off. Yeah. Even if I'm working 18, 20 hour days, six days a week.

• 1:33:35Jocko Willink?

  Coming home every night.

• 1:33:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Um, so.

• 1:33:40Jocko Willink?

  But at the same time, you've also got the hold on these guys that I've just.

• 1:33:43Speaker 01

  Just trained and now I'm gonna leave them. Um, and my worst fears actually happened. You know, they were in Afghanistan. I was, I just graduated drill sergeant school. I was on the 50 cal range. Um, yelling at some privates and I get a call from my ex-wife saying that my squad got hit. Um, two of my soldiers got killed from suicide bomber, the lady that just walked up to a market. And the squad leader replaced me and got blown up and lost his arm and we were best friends. So I was like,

• 1:34:14Speaker 01

  that was rough. Um, you know, one of my favorite soldiers, really good friends, Josh Rath, um, he was killed. And then another really good soldier of mine, Keith Estrada got killed. Like the two closest ones to me are the ones that got killed. Um, my middle name son's named after Josh for that reason. Um, but that, that really messed me up. I think like survivor's guilt, I guess, cause I couldn't be there for him. I should have been there for him, but.

• 1:34:44Speaker 01

  The same time, we got a family now, so it should be a home, a family. So it was kinda hard to weigh all that. I think that's when stuff started piling up.

• 1:34:54Jocko Willink?

  So what does it, what does it look like when, or feel like when, when quote, stuff starts piling up? Like what's happening in your life as you're dealing with the survivor's guilt and all the combat that you've been through, losing guys? When you say that things are piling up and it starts to take, take its toll on you, what does that look like?

• 1:35:15Speaker 01

  Um, if I wasn't a drill sergeant and didn't have that distraction, it would have been a lot worse than it was. But short temper, easily angered, drinking a lot. Um, I go to the doctor for, I had bad headaches, bad, like debilitated headaches. Uh, my back was jacked up. Um, I go to the doctor and they would give me a hundred and twenty Percocet for a month. They would give me hydrocortone at the same time, like just, I had a bag of, and I'm still a drill sergeant. Like I'm still walking around, going on eight, nine, 10 mile road marches and just eating pills and drinking in the evening when I get off. And just, you know, didn't really have a relationship with my family, you know?

• 1:35:59Speaker 01

  Luckily I was, I was able to turn off the drill sergeant when I got home. So I had like, it's weird, I had this tree outside my house and I would like, I'd rub the tree. And I would like turn off the drill sergeant, like take off my hat so I could go in the house, I could be a normal person, you know? My, my son at the time was three, whatever, so interact with him and that was my, that was my peace. But it was starting, it was getting bad. And I was constantly going to appointments and I'd go to the TBI clinic and they're like, I couldn't remember shit. I started messing up at work, um, forgetting stuff, you know?

• 1:36:36Speaker 01

  And with TBI clinic and they're like you, it ain't gonna work. Like I'd get MRIs and there'd be like a mass that didn't know what it was. They'd look at it and.

• 1:36:46Jocko Willink?

  Well, that's reassuring. When they look at your brain and go, there's some shit in there. We don't even know what it is.

• 1:36:50Speaker 01

  But then you go back for the next deployment. It's a different doctor and you have to re-explain everything. They have to look at everything else again and nobody can give you a solid answer. So eventually they're just like, I, I feel like they just said, we're tired of dealing with you. So they offered me a medical retirement. They offered me, they told me, I asked to like reclass, like change my list. It's like, give me a desk job, give me something else. And they're like, no, you're out. So.

• 1:37:15Speaker 01

  Say like 18 months as a drill sergeant, you know, I, I planned to stay in the army. So I didn't have a career lined up. And all of a sudden they're like, you're out. And they started this new program where they were getting dudes out in 90 days. So 90 days, I mean, I was like out of the army and they told me, you know, your VA benefit, you're going to get VA benefits, you're going to get retirement, all this stuff. And I was like, all right, well, that's not so bad, you know, go work at Walmart as a career or something like that. And that did not happen at all. I got out and nothing. They said, I didn't have any money, you know, I didn't have a job. My first job was, uh, working from AT&T for a call center. It was a, a program for veterans they did, which I didn't know at the time, but like,

• 1:38:00Speaker 01

  if you call AT&T about your bill or something, you're talking to a disabled veteran. Um, so like people would be like, they give you a service and like, what are you talking about? Like, how do you know that? But it was working from home. It was like from seven to the graveyard shift, which was terrible. Couldn't spend time with my family, couldn't do anything. And I was like, that ain't gonna work.

• 1:38:20Speaker 01

  Be streaming.

• 1:38:23Jocko Willink?

  You got a little inter- interjection there from, uh, caliber of the dog.

• 1:38:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. He's dreaming.

• 1:38:30Jocko Willink?

  Oh, that's cool.

• 1:38:31Speaker 01

  Dreams. Which means he's relaxed, so.

• 1:38:34Jocko Willink?

  That's good. So, uh, so how long did you stay at AT&T for?

• 1:38:37Speaker 01

  Oh, like six months.

• 1:38:40Speaker 01

  The, the trainer was like, you know, this might not be the best job for you. I was like, really? Chocker. He was like, you want to be a trainer? And I was like, we can give it a shot. He was like, and then like a manager called me. He was like, this is not going to work. I was like, well, okay. I went to some other program. I can't remember who it was, but this dude, uh, really helped me out.

• 1:39:03Speaker 01

  He had me take like these assessments and like they gauge your stuff and help me write a resume. I can't remember his name right now. It'll come to me in about 20 minutes.

• 1:39:14Speaker 01

  So a Greek name.

• 1:39:15Jocko Willink?

  So he put your, he helped you put your resume together and like.

• 1:39:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, he was a veteran.

• 1:39:18Jocko Willink?

  These are some jobs that you'd be good at.

• 1:39:20Speaker 01

  He was actually, he ran security for the Georgia Lottery. I was like, that sounds kind of cool. I got towards the facility and stuff. And also, by the way, we just came back from Texas. So we didn't have anywhere to live. Like I was in Phoenix, well, we were in Phoenix City, Alabama already. So we were staying there. Whatever. I was still into guns and, um, I was like, I want a suppressor. How do you get a suppressor? So I started looking into it and I found a company that was getting, because they hadn't passed the law yet. That you can have suppressors in Alabama. So I found a dude that was getting ready. He was like, we're going to be selling suppressor soon. And it turned out he was the ex-starter major for three, seven, five range battalion. And he was running a shop in his backyard. So I went and met with him. He was like, oh, you're better.

• 1:40:03Speaker 01

  And I was like, looking around, I said, can I work for you? He was like, yeah, sure. He was doing contract work, like spook stuff. So he was like, he showed me how to build some guns with custom AR 15s. I found out I love that. I was like, this is gorgeous. We can build anything, design stuff. We were like actually CNCing our receivers and turning our own barrels and stuff. I started doing that and we started making.

• 1:40:29Jocko Willink?

  What was the name of that company?

• 1:40:30Speaker 01

  Chattahoochee Gun Works.

• 1:40:31Jocko Willink?

  Chattahoochee Gun Works. Is it still around?

• 1:40:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's still around.

• 1:40:33Jocko Willink?

  Oh, right on.

• 1:40:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's still running out of his basement.

• 1:40:35Jocko Willink?

  Awesome.

• 1:40:35Speaker 01

  I'm not gonna drop his name because he still does the spook stuff too. But, uh, yeah, I started doing that and, uh, ended up working out great. Like he was like, started paying me a retainer and I started. Eventually bought into the business. Um, that's the one time that I started feeling like pride myself and like this is something I could do.

• 1:40:57Speaker 01

  But I did that for seven years, I think.

• 1:40:59Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:40:59Speaker 01

  And then had a falling out with some stuff. He was deployed. Um, we made it right after the, uh, the shooting at the school, which one?

• 1:41:11Speaker 01

  It was the bad one where everybody thought they were gonna lose their ARs. I made like a hundred and twenty grand in a month by myself. And he had to pay me a commission for that and it was crazy, but, um, I decided to separate from that. And then I started doing contract work for Raytheon.

• 1:41:28Jocko Willink?

  What kind of contract work? Like gunslinging contract work or?

• 1:41:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, and then working on the ranges and stuff.

• 1:41:34Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:41:36Speaker 01

  That was cool.

• 1:41:36Jocko Willink?

  But stateside or?

• 1:41:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:38Jocko Willink?

  Overseas?

• 1:41:38Speaker 01

  Both.

• 1:41:39Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:41:41Jocko Willink?

  And how'd you like getting back in the mix again?

• 1:41:43Speaker 01

  It was cool. Felt like, you know, one of the cool guys, you know? Get to do the cool guy's stuff, but you're not in the army. But I did that for about three years and then went in on a Monday and they said our contract was up and then Friday was my last day, so.

• 1:42:01Jocko Willink?

  That was that?

• 1:42:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:03Jocko Willink?

  And so what happened after that? What was the next move?

• 1:42:06Speaker 01

  Uh, I had a, I had an applicant or a resume on Indeed and a, uh, a former Blackhawk Colonel found it. They contacted me. He owned a Budget Blinds franchise. He was like, you want to work?

• 1:42:21Jocko Willink?

  What kind of?

• 1:42:21Speaker 01

  Budget Blinds.

• 1:42:22Jocko Willink?

  Budget blinds?

• 1:42:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a fridge, like, uh, window curtains.

• 1:42:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:26Speaker 01

  Um, blinds, shut it. I was like, blinds, what? I don't know anything about that. He was like, I'll teach you. I was like, alright, cool. Uh, he took me in, tried to pay me really good, um, working for him and.

• 1:42:39Speaker 01

  Hey, show me the ropes and I was doing pretty good, working my way up and we had a falling out. I just, I went through a couple of jobs. I just couldn't keep a job like after that I went to work for the local city.

• 1:42:53Speaker 01

  Doing maintenance stuff. That didn't go well at all. I just couldn't assimilate with anybody.

• 1:42:59Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah. And this is just, uh, how's the alcohol doing it this time? You drinking a lot?

• 1:43:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's working well.

• 1:43:08Jocko Willink?

  And what about all these painkillers that you've got? Were you staying on pills?

• 1:43:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, not as much because I started regulating them stuff. I had to go like a pain management center and all that, but I definitely cut down for what the army was giving me.

• 1:43:19Jocko Willink?

  But you made it up for that with alcohol?

• 1:43:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And I got back to smoke weed again because I could.

• 1:43:26Speaker 01

  And it just started stacking up and I'd never really got any kind of treatment for it. Um, after like my second or third job, I was like, maybe I'm the problem. Um, and we, at this point, yeah, it takes a little while to admit that. It takes a little while to admit that. At this point, we already had like three suicides, just, you know, from our unit alone. I was like, this is not like, no, like dudes going to jail for 20 years for beating somebody up in a bar and, you know, putting them in a coma like. I saw the writing on the wall and I saw where I was at. And at this point I had two kids and I was like, this is not gonna, it's not gonna end well if I keep on this path.

• 1:44:04Speaker 01

  So I made the conscious decision to start looking into stuff. I went to a few programs, a few for PTSD and stuff. I went to, uh, Chad Robichaud. Went to his Mighty Oaks Foundation. That was huge for me. That was a big thing.

• 1:44:17Jocko Willink?

  Awesome.

• 1:44:18Speaker 01

  But I was on my, my path to like get better, but it wasn't the same at home. Like at the time my ex was into some other stuff and not being there to support me, I guess is the best way to say it. Um, so it was a struggle. Like I was fighting my own demons and then fighting stuff at home, trying to keep our marriage alive, trying to, you know, trying to make myself better so I could be a better dad and a husband and all that stuff. And I wasn't getting the same, you know, on the other end. Um, so.

• 1:44:53Speaker 01

  Went through a little bit more. I think finally, uh, that's about the time the reunion kicked off. Um, so we had.

• 1:45:01Jocko Willink?

  What sparked the idea? Cause that was your idea, the reunion?

• 1:45:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, me and one of the soldier, but he kind of bailed on me for a couple of months, but uh, I'll probably hear this more.

• 1:45:14Speaker 01

  So we had one of our soldiers, uh, ended up taking his own life, um, for reasons, whatever.

• 1:45:21Jocko Willink?

  Is this before the reunion or after?

• 1:45:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is what caused the reunion.

• 1:45:24Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so this is what caused it?

• 1:45:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is like our nine years after Ramadi, probably. Um, and we were just talking, you know, I just bullshit with some guys every now and then through text message, FaceTime, whatever. And like, nobody see each other in a long time. You know, guys are falling apart, they're drifting away, you know?

• 1:45:43Jocko Willink?

  And are you looking at the whole kind of where everyone's at?

• 1:45:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:45:46Jocko Willink?

  And saying like, bro, we need to get together.

• 1:45:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's exactly what it was. That's when Facebook let you do stuff like that. Um, so I was like, we need a reunion because we were coming up on, it was 2016. Well, it was 2015 at the time, but it's coming up on 10 years. Like, well, let's have a reunion. Um, so we got the idea and I just started plugging away. I had no idea what I was doing, but just started outsourcing stuff. One, I just put a census out, see who was interested. Everybody was like, yes, yes, yes. Let's meet up. Let's get together.

• 1:46:12Speaker 01

  I started, uh, I got a friend from back home that has a laser engraving shop. So we came up with some merch, some cool logos and stuff, um, started selling that. People were getting excited about that. Uh, we had like GoFundMe account. We started getting some money. We got money from private people sending around. A lot of people like helped us out. It started coming together. Um, we did it in Helen, Georgia, right outside of my hometown. And I think we had about 40, 50 dudes show up.

• 1:46:39Jocko Willink?

  Nice.

• 1:46:40Speaker 01

  And which is a pretty big deal at the time because people come from all over the country.

• 1:46:44Jocko Willink?

  Is that like a third? How many people were in the company total? Uh, 150, 200?

• 1:46:48Speaker 01

  120.

• 1:46:49Jocko Willink?

  120?

• 1:46:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. But, you know, based after everything else, like losses and stuff like that. It was, it was a decent turnout. Everything was paid for. We had money to like pay for dudes. I actually had money that I set aside for bail funds, like.

• 1:47:02Jocko Willink?

  That's a good planning. That's some NCO planning right there, boy.

• 1:47:06Speaker 01

  We took over all of Helen, Georgia and, uh, we had a great time, but to me, like reconnect with my guys, like that was therapy. I didn't realize, but I was like, that was therapy. And a lot of guys felt the same way when we got done. Um, but. At the reunion, one of my soldiers showed up that on Facebook, he's got all the signs and symptoms of, you know, what I had, but a lot worse. Um, he showed up to the reunion and he had a service dog. Um, and he was a different person. Like he was not the same person. He wasn't the guy that was, you know, borderline suicide or anything like that. I was like, what the fuck? And he was like, it's a dog, man. It's a dog. I was like, what? And he told me about canines for warriors. And I was like, immediately, came home from there and applied, did the application.

• 1:47:51Jocko Willink?

  Did you have dogs growing up?

• 1:47:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, I've always had a dog. I mean.

• 1:47:54Jocko Willink?

  Did you have a dog in, at the time, like a non-service dog?

• 1:47:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, I had a shepherd, a German shepherd. Um, I even had dogs in Ramadi. You know, we'd have puppies that we'd find and they would follow us on our patrols. So I've always had a dog in my life.

• 1:48:08Jocko Willink?

  So what's the difference between you? So you had a dog. So when you went to the reunion, you already had a dog?

• 1:48:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:48:13Jocko Willink?

  But it wasn't a service dog?

• 1:48:15Speaker 01

  No, it was just really smart German shepherd.

• 1:48:16Jocko Willink?

  Just a smart, but that, and that German shepherd wasn't connected to the same way as this, this guy you saw with his service dog?

• 1:48:25Speaker 01

  No, no. It was just a dog. He was, you know, he was my best friend. He was a good dog and did all kinds of cool stuff, but it was just a dog. I didn't look at it that way. And then I saw him and his dog and I was like, you can do that? You're like, you can take him everywhere? Like you, you can take him to the grocery store. You can take him to Walmart, like everywhere. Yeah, man. And you know, the way he was trained was just a hundred percent professional. And they, uh, I did the application process for canines. This is before COVID, like this is right when I put my application in, which perfect lucked. The application process is super long, pretty.

• 1:49:02Jocko Willink?

  And as I was hearing about that, I was looking at the website yesterday too, for the, for the canines for warriors. So they're trying to figure out kind of like your personality through that application. So they can figure out what kind of dog you need.

• 1:49:15Speaker 01

  That's exactly what they do. They, they match your dog to you before you even get there.

• 1:49:19Jocko Willink?

  Because it's not like, uh, when a lot of people, when I think of a service dog, cause I was in the service, but I think of a working dog, right? I think of a German shepherd or a, or a, like that's all I think of. And so I think that's just what. Like they're, they're going to give you that dog. But then when I looked at the canine for warriors website, they give people all kinds of different, like there's no, there are every different type of dog from a freaking poodle to their pit bull, like and everything in between.

• 1:49:43Speaker 01

  Buddy, when I got a poodle, make fun about that, but I don't even know if I knew I was a gunsmith and he was named caliber before I even got him. And I was like, this is obviously fate.

• 1:49:54Speaker 01

  But uh, yeah, backing up the application process. So I had to wait about 14, 15 months. And it's during COVID too. So the class sizes went, you know, from 12 to like four. So I was, at that point I started getting a little discouraged. I was like, well, this ain't gonna work. And I've tried everything. I went back to mighty oaks again. And I was like, that worked for me. So that's another thing I want to touch on.

• 1:50:19Speaker 01

  Mighty Oaks, are you familiar with the program? Alright, so it's, it's more.

• 1:50:22Jocko Willink?

  Actually, one of my buddies, well, not only Chad, who I'm friends with Chad, and he's been on this podcast, I think twice at this point, but another guy that runs at Lou Rivera, he's a SEAL teammate of mine from SEAL Team Three, great dude. Supposed to have him on the podcast at some point, but yeah, so I'm, I'm very familiar with it. I've been briefed about it. I've looked at all the literature, I've talked to Chad a bunch about it and, and I've actually, they're kind of like my emergency button. When, when I have a, when I have one of my friends or one of my teammates or a veteran that reaches out, that's really in a bad way. Those are the guys I call.

• 1:50:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's geared more towards guys in our line of work, not just like, you know, I was on a no discredit to them, but it's more to like, it's like direct action kind of guys that actually you need it. So when I went there for the first time, seeing dudes like, one of my mentors was a PJ. And this dude was telling me crazy stories. And I'm like, if you can get help, there's no excuse for me not getting help. You know, seeing dudes like, you know, SEALs and PJs and SF guys like there to get help like that. Maybe you do need to like reach out and get some help. So that was a motivating factor for me. So like when the Canines thing.

• 1:51:34Jocko Willink?

  And, and real quick, the symptoms. Like, look, you can't hold a job. I just want to make sure that when people hear this, they go, oh. I think they might be talking about me, but like you're having trouble to hold the job. You're taking pills, you're drinking, short temper. Like, what are their signs and symptoms, uh, forgetting stuff? What other signs and symptoms are there that people need to go, oh, this could be me. I, I might need some help right now.

• 1:51:59Speaker 01

  Uh, no connection with civilians. Like, it wasn't that I wasn't good at any kind of job. It was just that. I can't connect with anybody, you know, like there's no camaraderie there. There's no brotherhood. There's no. Purpose, I guess. Um, it's just kind of hard to. Reassemble it into society and people, oh, you're a veteran and it's just one big lump. You're a veteran. There's no like, they don't have a clue what you did. And I got a buddy of mine that, you know. Highly decorated, you know, Ranger, Sergeant Major, and he's got all the awards. And I was like, dude, when you go to Publix to check out, they don't care. When you walk through Walmart, they don't, nobody cares. Like. The only thing they see is the way you live your life and the way you carry yourself and every, all your accolades, while they're awesome in the military.

• 1:52:43Speaker 01

  They don't translate to anything outside and nobody really. They don't understand, they don't appreciate that or understand it, I guess. But yeah, that's the, the disconnection between civilians, I guess. Um, and then just everything piled up, um, ruin relationships, you know.

• 1:53:02Jocko Willink?

  So the first time you go to Mighty Oaks, you were, I cut, I cut you off, but you were talking about the first time going to Mighty Oaks. You see that there's like PJs and SEALs and. People that you're like, oh, maybe I could use some help too.

• 1:53:12Speaker 01

  Right. And. Definitely like looked up to people like that, like, you know, if you can admit that you have an issue, then there's no excuse for me doing it. I mean. You've done 10 times the crazier stuff and I haven't seen a lot of crazier stuff. So, you know, if you can admit that you have an issue, then there's no reason why I can't do it or anybody else can't do it. So that was kind of a kick in the nuts for me, I guess.

• 1:53:38Jocko Willink?

  And then you ended up going back to Mighty Oaks again?

• 1:53:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:41Jocko Willink?

  And then how was it the second time though?

• 1:53:43Speaker 01

  It was, it wasn't as impactful the first time. I just felt like I needed some accountability for myself. You know, I felt like it was, I was slipping, getting, you know, stuff getting worse. I'd never had any legal problems that were a DUI, never hit my wife, never hit my kids or anything like that. But I could just see the writing on the wall. Like I'm drinking a lot, you know, smoking a lot, still take the pills, still can't hold a job, all that stuff. And like, it's not going to end well. Like there's something catastrophic is going to happen and it's going to be bad. And I can't afford my family to go through something like that. And ultimately, it would be my responsibility or it'd be my fault, you know? So I had to hold myself accountable. You know, Mighty Oaks is faith-based program, which in the beginning, they didn't really lead on to that. But now it's geared more towards that. So, you know, I encouraged my

• 1:54:28Speaker 01

  ex-wife, go to church and do this stuff and start a routine, the structure, you know, like we used to have. But that's another thing, not having the structure of your life and getting out. I mean, first thing I did was not shave. Like I got two kids that have never seen me without a beard.

• 1:54:47Speaker 01

  Um, just, you know, having that, that freedom where you can just do what I want now. Can't tell me what to do. Um, but that also is a problem too. Because if you don't have that kind of structure of your life, that's how you get in trouble. So, yeah.

• 1:55:04Jocko Willink?

  And then, so the application process, you're waiting for a dog, you don't get a dog, it's taking too much time.

• 1:55:11Speaker 01

  During COVID, so it just keeps getting stretched out.

• 1:55:13Jocko Willink?

  And that's where, so you go back to Mighty Oaks. Now you're done with Mighty Oaks.

• 1:55:18Speaker 01

  And I was on a standby list because I was retired at the time and I wasn't working anymore. Um, so I was the guy that if there was a spot open at the last minute, they could call. And damn, they did.

• 1:55:32Speaker 01

  April of 2020, they called me and they're like, we got a spot open graduating class in Bay. And I was like, I got it.

• 1:55:38Jocko Willink?

  How long is the class?

• 1:55:39Speaker 01

  Uh, it's three weeks.

• 1:55:40Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:55:41Speaker 01

  And it's, you live there, um, and the class is for you to learn how to use the dog. Cause the dog is already trained. The $40,000, I think is what they, they spend to train these dogs. And like you said, as far as matching the personality of the dog, they did that to the T. I mean, I can't tell you, it's crazy. The way Caliber is like me, we do the same thing. And he had to have some of my schedule and he, and he's amazing. But, um, so.

• 1:56:10Speaker 01

  Ended up going like two weeks before, um, I, I'd go to Walmart and shop at three o'clock in the morning. Cause I didn't want to be around people, you know, I just, I didn't, or I didn't leave my house. And I just didn't want to go out. I didn't want to have to deal with that. Um, really reclusive, didn't, didn't, I really had many friends. All my friends were in the military. They're either other side of the country or still active duty. So I didn't interact with anybody. And then I was like, I'm gonna have a dog. It'll bring even more attention to me. That's what I don't want. Um, so I almost backed out, like I was like, but then I was like, I need this. This is, I wouldn't say it's a last shot, but it's like, you went through this much effort for your application process and waiting all this time. Like just, just do it.

• 1:56:52Speaker 01

  And I went there and dude, when I tell you it's a family, like they welcome you like a family. Um, one, the facility is amazing. Um, two, they have like house moms, like people from the community that volunteer. Uh, cook dinner, like somebody from the community drops off a meal every single night. Um, the living conditions are awesome and it was during COVID. So we had like our own apartment to ourselves.

• 1:57:18Speaker 01

  Which kind of funny story about Caliber and sleeping in our bed together.

• 1:57:24Speaker 01

  But just the way they take you in, like they, they had changed up the process a little bit. So we got there early Friday morning and we did all the paperwork, whatever paperwork was left. It seemed like it never ended, but, um, the next day we wake up and we, we get our dogs. It's dog day, which is a huge thing. And from that moment on, we haven't been separated and that was May 2020. Um, but like the, the anxiety building up to that, like they keep you all separated. And one guy would go out to the kennel and get his dog and walk back. And I'm like, damn, that's a cool dog. And one guy will walk back with a poodle and be like, wow.

• 1:57:56Jocko Willink?

  A poodle.

• 1:57:58Speaker 01

  So I remember they walked me back, I was super nervous, nervous to get a dog, I don't understand that, but walked back there and I saw him and his favorite toy is a chicken, which we still have to this day, and he immediately ran up to me and sat down and just, you know, floppy ears and golden brown eyes and just instant connection. And they were like, his name's Caliber. And I was like, what? Like, did y'all change it or something? His name's Caliber. We've been naming that for two years already. And all our dogs are rescues too. So he was a rescue. He was in doggy jail for a while when he was first born. And then you just go through the training and learn how to use your dog and learn the rules and, you know, what you can do, what people can't do to you and stuff like that and just.

• 1:58:43Jocko Willink?

  What's, uh, what's some of the things that you really rely on Caliber for?

• 1:58:49Speaker 01

  Oh, um, so he, for one, like he can identify my anxiety before I can identify it. He does this thing, which ironically hadn't done it this time, the whole, because I thought I was gonna be nervous coming in here, but I'm not really nervous. But if we're like in a waiting room somewhere and I'm going to an appointment or I'm, I'm getting stressed out, he'll come and he'll jump on my lap and he'll just like make me focus my attention on him. So it distracts me from, you know, what I was anxious about. One thing which he's wasn't trained to do, but I had a stroke like four or five years ago. I was sitting in the living room and he came up to me and like a different way approached me and jumped

• 1:59:33Speaker 01

  on my lap and started like pawing on my chest. And next thing I know, like I'm starting to get paralyzed and left some of my face and stuff. He legit saved my life because I was able to, you know, mom wanted my son to call 911 and stuff, but he, uh, dude, he, he's, he's always there. Like, he doesn't judge me.

• 1:59:53Speaker 01

  Too much. He's spoiled. So if he doesn't get everything he needs. But he's just always there for me. He distracts, you know, from anxiety.

• 2:00:04Speaker 01

  One of the biggest, the biggest rewards for having him is interacting with people. Like I interact with people now. Like we go out on almost a daily basis. If I don't go out, he'll start getting like kind of antsy like that and go somewhere. You know, we just go to the gas station, whatever. But being able to interact with people. I remember the first time. We were walking through Walmart and there was like an autistic kid that was having like an issue. And he was looking at the dog and my mom was like, can't pet the dog. He's working. The dog is working. I was like, he can pet him. And I let him pet Caliber and that kid just immediately calmed down. I was like, Jesus, like, that's why he's here. And then talking to other veterans, like, I can't tell you how many times other veterans would come up to me and be like, dude, how'd you get your dog?

• 2:00:48Speaker 01

  And that's an opportunity to like, tell them like, if you need help, dude, like that's why they're there. And just I pointed a lot of people that direction. Hopefully it helped and worked out. Probably never see him again, but the fact that like. I'm okay with like talking to other dudes about it and being like, yeah, I had problems too. Like I went through stuff. And this didn't cure me, didn't fix it, but this is like the best thing that's ever happened. I've been through a lot of programs for stuff like that. And this is by far the most beneficial one.

• 2:01:24Jocko Willink?

  When they train the dogs, like, so it can go in and out of buildings, go on elevators, escalators, in cars. Like, what are the things that make this, that make these dogs sort of like adaptable to so many different environments?

• 2:01:39Speaker 01

  Just the skill from their trainers, like the, I think it's like a year and a half that they train these dogs.

• 2:01:46Jocko Willink?

  So they do, do they do like straight obedience too?

• 2:01:48Speaker 01

  Oh, it's more than obedience. Like now K9's program has advanced so much where they actually have like airplane seats that you can like, you practice going to the airport. You practice going through checkpoint security. You practice like everything. I mean, they, they're always changing, always adapting. And, um. Yeah, there's nowhere you can't take them. Well. But I haven't.

• 2:02:14Speaker 01

  Legally, like can't take him back to the kitchen or restaurant, but I've had um my middle son had to have an emergency appendectomy a couple of months back and Caliber immediately knew and climbed up in bed with him. It was comforting my middle son, you know, because he was scared. He was about to have surgery. Um, he's done that for for my wife when she's having an anxious moment. Like he just picks up on it and he comforts people in a way that I guess I don't know if I didn't see coming or whatever, but he's there like I don't know how to I don't know how to explain it. It's kind of hard, but.

• 2:02:48Jocko Willink?

  So that's awesome. Um, and so it's obviously had a positive impact on you. I mean, because you're married again now, right? Yep. How long you been married for?

• 2:02:58Speaker 01

  Uh, it'll be one month tomorrow.

• 2:03:00Jocko Willink?

  Oh, okay. Yeah. Good job, Caliber.

• 2:03:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:03Jocko Willink?

  Got it done. Uh, um, and you're an ambassador right now for Canines for Warriors, right?

• 2:03:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:10Jocko Willink?

  And so how big is Canines for Warriors? How many dogs are they doing a year?

• 2:03:13Speaker 01

  Oh, just crossed a thousand dogs overall for the whole program. I want to say like six months ago. I think they're up to like 1,200 now. They have more that they have, I think have three campuses now. They have.

• 2:03:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I saw the campuses on the website. They're like really nice.

• 2:03:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. They also have the mega kennel, which is the largest kennel in the world. I think quote me up, but I'm pretty sure.

• 2:03:33Jocko Willink?

  It's the largest kennel in the world.

• 2:03:34Speaker 01

  So they uh, they rescue dogs, you know, from kill shelters. But um, that's their main thing. They rescue dogs. They're, you know, their thing is a new leash on life. So they're saving a dog and a veteran. Um, and that's how he was. He was a doggy Joe for a while. So he got saved by Canines and the rest is history.

• 2:03:56Jocko Willink?

  And uh, and that's, I think it's, let me just check my notes here, because I've got it written down. I'm a canine for warriors. Canine for warriors.org is what it is. Yeah. Canine for warriors.org. Uh, another big thing that helped you obviously because it reconnected you with these with your with your brothers from dealer is this reunion. And and that's how you and I got reconnected because we got this massive reunion coming. The 11 AD Ramadi reunion, um, January 16th and 17th to 2026.

• 2:04:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:04:28Jocko Willink?

  So so there's a Facebook site. There's a website. If you Google, I've Googled it. If you Google, uh, Ready First Reunion, you'll you'll find it. And we've got already, I want to say like there's. I want to say there's like almost a thousand people that have already responded that are planning to come.

• 2:04:46Speaker 01

  That's awesome.

• 2:04:46Jocko Willink?

  I mean, this is out of a brigade of 5,600 people. I mean, it's a big brigade, but that's a huge amount of people to come 20 years later.

• 2:04:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:04:54Jocko Willink?

  So it's going to be a really awesome event to get to and looking forward to seeing a bunch of people there and, and hopefully we'll be more well behaved than you guys were. And we don't need to set aside funds for bail money. Although for contingency purposes, we may have to do that.

• 2:05:13Speaker 01

  Well, it's on for bliss. So hopefully they'll just, you know.

• 2:05:15Jocko Willink?

  True.

• 2:05:15Speaker 01

  Keep us, keep us there. But one thing we tried to work in, I don't know how it's going to work out now, but I, I wanted to have some of our own soldiers and sailors and airmen and Marines and stuff. Um, if anybody needed the help to go through canines, my goal was to have them go through canines and graduate and have the dog presented at the reunion. Um, but the, the few that we had for medical reasons or personal reasons, whatever, didn't work out, but I, I think canines will still be there for as far as advocacy, um, just to let other people know that it's a program that's out there. It's a program that I didn't know existed.

• 2:05:46Jocko Willink?

  Well, if somebody's hearing this right now too, like there's time, right?

• 2:05:49Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Yeah.

• 2:05:50Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So if somebody's hearing this right now, uh, reach out and we'll get you connected and make something happen hopefully.

• 2:05:57Speaker 01

  Definitely.

• 2:05:58Jocko Willink?

  And that, that'd be epic. Uh, so that's it, man. You got a dog. You got a wife.

• 2:06:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:06:04Jocko Willink?

  Pretty good scores in that order.

• 2:06:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:06:07Jocko Willink?

  She said, Tiffany said over in the corner, give me, give me, give me looks. Um, that, but just like a huge, uh, progress in your life at this juncture, you know, going through some of the worst combat, losing so many guys. And now here you are kind of reassembled. Getting it done. Um, does that get us up to speed then?

• 2:06:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think so.

• 2:06:29Jocko Willink?

  Right on, right on. Uh, and so for people to find canines for warriors, I know you're not really big on the social media thing, but for canine for warriors, we got canines. It's K, the letter K, then nine, and then an S, and then for warriors.org. That's where it's at. And then it's on YouTube, on Instagram and on Twitter, X, all those, the same, uh, handle, same call sign, at same thing, K nine S for warriors, canines for warriors. And that's where people can find this program. Again, Uh, trying to make something happen for the reunion, maybe do a dog presentation there. That'd be freaking epic. Very cool, but uh, I'm sure we'll see you and Caliber at the reunion.

• 2:07:13Jocko Willink?

  For anyone who wants to come and meet Caliber. Oh, Caliber's getting fired up. She's like, hears me talking over here. He hears me talking. So I gotta.

• 2:07:22Speaker 01

  Also Mighty Oaks too.

• 2:07:23Jocko Willink?

  Yep, Mighty Oaks.

• 2:07:25Speaker 01

  Biggest thing is that, you know, if there's somebody out there that needs help, it's, it's not, you know, swallow your pride. And admit it and go get it before something bad happens. I guess, don't.

• 2:07:39Speaker 01

  I think suicide is kind of a selfish thing to do, um, or get yourself in trouble legally, you know, like there's help out there. Um, there's plenty of places. Try them. Try them. If one don't work, try some else or go to the gym, do some MMA or something.

• 2:07:54Jocko Willink?

  Awesome stuff, brother. Uh, Echo, any questions?

• 2:07:59Speaker 02

  Oh yeah, real quick on the, as far as like after the, the process of matching you guys up, you said you have two weeks, three weeks. Three weeks to get to know each other. You said get trained up on like how to, what, what'd you call it? Use or, or?

• 2:08:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, pretty much how to interact, use your dog. Like they, they know so many commands. So you have to, there's different commands for different things. Um, you know, I can say side and he knows to come to my side and sit down. I can, I can go to the bathroom, we're going to a urinal and say, look, and he'll turn around and look behind you. I mean, it's, he's literally covering your six.

• 2:08:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:08:29Speaker 01

  Um, so you have to, you have to learn how to, to integrate all the commands that he's already been taught, how, when to use them. I mean, they actually, they can brace. Like if you've got guys with mobility issues, you can say brace and you can put your hands on his back and lift yourself up. I mean, they, um, there's commands for getting underneath the seat or riding on public transportation or at a restaurant and he sits underneath the table. So you have to, they teach you how to use the dog.

• 2:08:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, Brad, that's so legit too. Cause you don't think about that kind of stuff, you know? Where it's like, brother, this is like a straight, of course, yes, companionship and all that, but it's like, brother, this is kind of like a utility, like a friend scenario. Like your little partner.

• 2:09:04Speaker 01

  It's like getting a motorized scooter. Like you have to learn how to use it.

• 2:09:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, so legit. Um, you said something real quick too. You said. You get to know what people can't do to you. Or like the like you you just said, I mean, those are your words or whatever. Um, so you kind of what you get trained together and you kind of, what does that mean?

• 2:09:21Speaker 01

  Uh, you learn like the ADA laws, like where you can take them. Um, so like, you know, I've had a couple instances, nothing big. Um, go into a restaurant and either get seated in the back of the restaurant away from everybody. Or treated differently, like hotels can't charge you for a pet fee because it's not a pet. It's a service animal. Um, so there, there's a whole class they teach on that, on like the laws and stuff. Americans with Disabilities Act, like it's a whole thing.

• 2:09:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:09:46Speaker 01

  And so they just teach you how to identify that stuff. And, you know, you can't get discriminated against. Um, he can go anywhere. I got an Uber on the way here and the guy kind of gave me some looks and I was like, wow, we've had this issue before with Uber and it don't work out.

• 2:10:01Speaker 02

  How, um, how often like that, for example, how often do you run into that?

• 2:10:05Speaker 01

  I've had him for six years and I probably five times maybe. Um, but at, at the same time, Canines Warriors, they have a team of people that's their job. I, I have a, they have a, what's called a duty phone. It's like a CQ or whatever, if you have that. It's a 24 hour number you call if you have an issue. Whatever, your dog's sick or you can't get into a restaurant or somebody discriminated against you, you call them. And they have a way to fix it. You know, they have a lot of connection, they have a lot of pool. It's not something you're, you're not going to make a million dollars and sue, you know, McDonald's because they won't let you come in. They, it's more about educating everybody else and being like, you know, look, he's, it's like a wheelchair, like, you know, you can't discriminate. You know, the VA recognizes it now as, you know, actual therapy.

• 2:10:47Speaker 01

  So, um, they just teach you how to navigate stuff like that. And they're, they're literally always there. And when I say it's a family, I mean, they check up on you every month. Um, they, they call you every month, make sure you and your dog are okay.

• 2:11:01Speaker 01

  I had a, the one I was talking about earlier that, you know, he was going through some financial times and worried about his dog. They sent him like a couple of bags of dog food. I mean, they're, they're not going to let you fail.

• 2:11:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:11:11Speaker 01

  Um, I think their success rate is probably up there with Mighty Oaks as far as, you know, 99.5%. Um, I don't think they've ever had a suicide or anything like that after. Another thing, you know, when I went to Canines before I went there, I was on 20 medications.

• 2:11:26Speaker 02

  Damn.

• 2:11:27Speaker 01

  You know, SSR stuff that I don't, I haven't taken since, completely off. Like, you know, Motrin and.

• 2:11:35Speaker 01

  Blood pressure medicine and stuff like that. I'm off all that stuff in the last six years. And I really feel like that's because of him and the K9 warriors.

• 2:11:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, plus you gotta like go out for walks.

• 2:11:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:11:47Jocko Willink?

  You know what I mean?

• 2:11:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a total thing too.

• 2:11:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I'll tell you what, we, my, my, my dog died um at Christmas and you know, my wife was, my wife was heartbroken. I was heartbroken too, but my wife was like, you know, immediately after like, I don't want to get another dog. Like I, I can't go through this again. And then like a few days later, I came home and like my dog wasn't there. The house is totally quiet. And I just said, darling, we need another dog. She says, yes, we do. And so we, we got, you know, new dog, but and just awesome, you know, like you got, you gotta take that thing for a walk. You gotta throw it that ball. You gotta just, you gotta get engaged. He doesn't care. Like he's just like wanting to have a good time.

• 2:12:29Jocko Willink?

  And wants that belly rub and the whole nine yards. And so those little things and, and this is just from a dog.

• 2:12:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:12:35Jocko Willink?

  My dog, he's an awesome dog, but he's not a dog. He doesn't, he doesn't know the brace command. Not yet. He's about to go home and learn it though.

• 2:12:42Speaker 01

  But you know, it's, it's accountability for me too. Like one, representing K9 warriors and two, I have him like a highly trained service dog. Like I have to, I have to get up. I might not want to, but like it's morning in the hotel. Like I didn't want to get up, but he did. So we're getting up because I'm not cleaning anything up and not going to make him suffer because I'm too lazy to get up. So we got up and we, we walked and then as soon as we start, you know, out the elevator door and outside, start walking. And you know, fresh air and you're walking and start feeling better. And you're like, it's because of the dog.

• 2:13:12Jocko Willink?

  Life's getting better already. Awesome. Echo, you got any more questions? Good to meet you, sir.

• 2:13:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, man, you too.

• 2:13:17Jocko Willink?

  Ryan, any closing thoughts, bro?

• 2:13:19Speaker 01

  No, just what I emphasize on, veteran out there that needs help, just don't be afraid to ask and there's plenty of help out there.

• 2:13:24Jocko Willink?

  Awesome stuff, man. Well, thank you for joining us tonight. Uh, really appreciate it, but more important, you know, thanks for what you and your boys did from Team Dealer in Ramadi. I mean, it was relentless day after day, night after night. And you guys were always there. You guys never faltered and we will be eternally grateful for your service and the sacrifice of your boys.

• 2:13:49Speaker 01

  Appreciate it.

• 2:13:50Jocko Willink?

  Thanks, brother.

• 2:13:53Jocko Willink?

  And with that, Ryan Jackson has left the building. Pretty awesome to hear his story. And just what he's been through, what he done? And I'm telling you, get the book Ramadi Declassified by Colonel Anthony Dean. We covered on the podcast, but we only covered a little bit of that book on the podcast. And the fighting was so hard. The losses were so heavy. And to, you know, as you heard from Ryan, he was right in the thick of it the whole time. Eight hours in the into meme and other areas. Eight hours there.

• 2:14:37Jocko Willink?

  Eight hours on QRF, which is getting called all the way by, by, by the way, just to let you know. And then eight hours to prep for your next mission and eat and sleep. It's rough. It's a, those are some, some, some real soldiers and some real heroes. So thanks to Ryan for coming on and, and just to see what Ryan went through there and then face some struggles. And then out on the other side, man, doing awesome, making progress or has made so much progress. And it's a sign to me that we can all make progress, right? And look, maybe it's getting a dog. Maybe it is, man. I know my dog's a good dog. You got a dog too, right?

• 2:15:22Speaker 02

  I do.

• 2:15:22Jocko Willink?

  Technically speaking.

• 2:15:23Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 2:15:24Jocko Willink?

  Right? Cause you didn't select your dog, right?

• 2:15:27Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 2:15:27Jocko Willink?

  What kind of dog is it again?

• 2:15:29Speaker 02

  Yorkie.

• 2:15:30Jocko Willink?

  Okay. We've been through this before.

• 2:15:32Speaker 02

  Yes, we have.

• 2:15:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Do you, does your dog like to get, uh, petted?

• 2:15:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:15:38Jocko Willink?

  Do you like to pet the dog?

• 2:15:39Speaker 02

  I do now, to be honest with you.

• 2:15:41Jocko Willink?

  But at one time you did not.

• 2:15:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:15:43Jocko Willink?

  How come?

• 2:15:44Speaker 02

  I just wasn't into it, you know, whatever. It wasn't.

• 2:15:46Jocko Willink?

  Dude, you're gonna, your ratings are gonna go down, bro.

• 2:15:49Speaker 02

  It's possible, but you know, it, but in this way, it wasn't my idea to get the dog. It was like yet another thing. And I'm like, all right, you know, but it was the classic tale.

• 2:15:58Jocko Willink?

  Plus here's something I'm gonna reveal about you right now.

• 2:16:02Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:16:02Jocko Willink?

  That you played off pretty well, but let's face it, you don't like things that jam up your, your system.

• 2:16:11Jocko Willink?

  You know what I'm saying?

• 2:16:12Speaker 02

  I do know what you're saying.

• 2:16:13Jocko Willink?

  Am I accurate?

• 2:16:13Speaker 02

  I'd say, yeah, you're.

• 2:16:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you don't like things that jam up the Echo Charles world.

• 2:16:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:16:18Jocko Willink?

  Right? Cause you're gonna do what you you like to do what Echo Charles likes to do.

• 2:16:22Speaker 02

  I'd say that's fair.

• 2:16:24Jocko Willink?

  So if something's gonna jam that up, technically speaking.

• 2:16:28Speaker 02

  It's not welcomed right away.

• 2:16:29Jocko Willink?

  Welcomed right away.

• 2:16:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:16:30Jocko Willink?

  So the dog was gonna could, you know, you might have to feed this animal. You might have to take this animal, it might go to the bathroom in the house. There's all kinds of jamming up that could happen.

• 2:16:40Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:16:42Jocko Willink?

  And that's where you were against it in the beginning.

• 2:16:44Speaker 02

  Yes, the, you know, the classic.

• 2:16:45Jocko Willink?

  Again, dude, you're gonna take heavies in this.

• 2:16:47Speaker 02

  I and that makes sense.

• 2:16:48Jocko Willink?

  World's gonna be against you.

• 2:16:49Speaker 02

  I understand.

• 2:16:50Jocko Willink?

  Especially after you see what the what what caliber did for for Ryan. You're over here just not wanted.

• 2:16:56Speaker 02

  Keep in mind, that's different.

• 2:16:58Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:16:58Speaker 02

  Well, you know, the whole classic thing where it's like, oh, the whole family rallies and it's like.

• 2:17:03Jocko Willink?

  You're gonna get canceled.

• 2:17:04Speaker 02

  It's possible. But they, you know, the family's like, hey, uh, get, um, let's get a dog. And then the dad's like, oh, my God, like, who's gonna end up having to take care of the dog? Right? It's like, so the dad's gonna be against it. And then we'll think, no, then finally the dad's like, fine, I gotta think outside my own selfish wants or whatever. Let's get the dog. And then the dad ends up having to train it, take care of it, and then eventually likes the dog better than everyone else does.

• 2:17:28Jocko Willink?

  Is that where you're at?

• 2:17:29Speaker 02

  I feel I feel that that's that was the arc.

• 2:17:32Jocko Willink?

  What's your dog's name?

• 2:17:34Speaker 02

  Maya.

• 2:17:34Jocko Willink?

  Maya?

• 2:17:35Speaker 02

  Maya.

• 2:17:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, Maya, alright, Maya, alright. Well, it could be getting a dog.

• 2:17:41Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 2:17:43Jocko Willink?

  That gets you moving in the right direction.

• 2:17:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, so it and here was, this is why, like, I asked the questions I did because, you know, I've seen, so obviously, we've seen many service dogs before. But beyond seeing them and kind of little things you hear about them, you don't really know the depth of what really a service dog does and is for, you know? So, yeah, I know I have my dog, we have our dogs and we know what they can do. So you know, as far as like the good scenarios where it's like, yes, it's like a little companionship, the free, you know, like that. And so, but you don't really know. But when you think about it and get more details, it's kind of like, oh, sure, they're all that. The companion, like that whole part of it, but they're trained in that whole direction.

• 2:18:27Jocko Willink?

  That's an important part because, you know, talking about like with Mike Rittland, who literally trains dogs. But you know how dogs, they can, they know what your mood is. Or they know if you're nervous about something, they know it. Like even if a person makes you nervous, they're getting like aggressive towards, or they'll get

• 2:18:50Jocko Willink?

  alerted to your nervousness about someone or something. And so what they do, you know, apparently talking to Ryan, it's like they take the dogs and they take those instincts and they hone them and they train them. It's like, oh, you're sad. Here's what I should do as a dog to get you squared away.

• 2:19:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, because they already can sense it to begin with. And that part is true too. Where, and Mike Rittland is the one who turned me on to this whole idea where it's like, bro, that makes so much sense. Where he's like, you know, if I, if I know, known you for a little bit. I'm paraphrasing, but if I've known you for a little bit and or if I didn't know you at all and I see and I say like, hi, and then the way you say hi back to me. I already know as just another human being, like that you're kind of nervous when you said hi. Or that you're really relaxed when you said hi. Like I kind of know that I can pick up on that. These dogs can pick up on that even more. So when you kind of consider that stuff, it's like, oh, man. And then you pay attention to your own dog. You're like, oh, bro, this dog can pick up on all that stuff. Because think about it, they're not distracted by your words or all this, or the stress of this or stress of, they're not distracted by that.

• 2:19:50Speaker 02

  They're just kind of reading you from moment to moment to moment to moment. So like all these patterns are emerging in that way. So they're so in touch with it. And I noticed that too about my little silly dog. It's like she just runs around like, you know, like I think she's trained for sure, but she's not one of these. But sometimes I'm surprised. I'm like, bro, this dog's kind of psychic in that small way. Seems like it.

• 2:20:09Jocko Willink?

  How do you like my new dog compared to Odin?

• 2:20:13Speaker 02

  I, I don't think I've been around him long enough to see the difference. I think they're. I was gonna make a joke when you're like, then we got another dog. I say, yeah, same dog. He just looks slightly different, different color. That's it. But yeah, same dog. Mallow, big German.

• 2:20:27Jocko Willink?

  Check. All right. With that, um, if, speaking of making progress, another good things you could, there's more good things you can do to make progress.

• 2:20:37Jocko Willink?

  Hey, a, a nod to echo Charles, get some rest. It's part of the whole thing.

• 2:20:43Speaker 02

  Yes, there it is.

• 2:20:45Jocko Willink?

  Don't want to get jammed up.

• 2:20:46Speaker 02

  Nope.

• 2:20:47Jocko Willink?

  So get some good rest, workout, train jujitsu, run, sprint, and make sure you're getting some clean fuel.

• 2:20:55Speaker 02

  Yep, it's true. Really, that's the three things.

• 2:20:59Jocko Willink?

  Well, I know.

• 2:21:00Speaker 02

  The three, oh, I could have told you that many, many times. What you do for exercise, what you do for recovery, which is rest, what you do for nutrition.

• 2:21:09Jocko Willink?

  Well, uh, we need fuel. Check out Jocko Fuel. Check out Jocko Fuel dot com. Go to Jocko Fuel dot com. Couple of good things. Authenticity, because there's, I know it sounds crazy, but there's fake Jocko Fuel. Just like there's fake Jocko T-shirts, there's fake Jocko books, like all those things are real. But you would think like, look, you understand how to make a book, a fake Jocko book, you just take the words and, you know, print them on a photocopy, right? To make a T-shirt, oh, we don't even, we just need a silk screen, a print and a design, and we put Jocko on it and sell it on Amazon. But you can actually get fake Jocko Fuel, which to me is crazy. And again, we're cracking down on it. We're on it.

• 2:21:53Jocko Willink?

  We're law enforcement involved. Like, it's crazy that this stuff is going on, but it goes on. But if you go to Jocko Fuel dot com, there's no, that's not happening. Uh, also there's like really good deals we put out on Jocko Fuel dot com. And we got free shipping over 99 bucks. By the way, our shipping used to take like a while to get stuff shipped. But we're out of that phase now. Uh, ships either that day or the morning, the next morning. So it's squared away. And then we got a whole like loyalty pro, which, you know, when, when my team started talking to me about loyalty programs, I, I quite frankly, am not a big like loyalty, uh, type.

• 2:22:31Jocko Willink?

  Shopper. Shopper. Member. Yeah, yeah. I don't even, I like, I fly all over the place. People are like, what airline are you? And I'm like, I'm all airlines. Yeah. I'm all of them. I'm like, I don't even know what my status is in the various airlines. Yeah, yeah. You know, I'm not like, oh, excuse me, Emerald member coming through.

• 2:22:52Jocko Willink?

  But, uh, so I don't know that much about it. But when they told me, like, hey, you got people that are using the product all the time, shopping at jogofuel.com, we should take care of them. I'm like, oh, 100%. So we got a bunch of things there where, you know, you can get earned points. You get money off, you get free gifts. Again, you get like new products that come out. You get first access to those are a bunch of cool things there. And like I said, you got the subscriptions, which like between 10 and 20% off for those when you subscribe and you have to worry about not ordering it or it not being in stock. That's another thing at jogofuel.com. It's everything's in stock for the most part, 98% of the time. Maybe 97% of the time, we got it. So there you go. Check out jogofuel.com.

• 2:23:36Jocko Willink?

  Also, if you don't get it there, you can get it at Walmart. I heard Ryan mentioned Walmart. He went to Walmart a lot today. He was like, oh, you're going to Walmart, Walmart, Walmart. So we know Ryan Jackson, Ryan, you can get jogofuel Walmart. Also, Wawa, vitamin shop, GNC, Military Commissaries, Afees, Hanford, Dash Stores, Wakefern, ShopRite, HEB down in Texas, Meyer out in the Midwest, Wegmans on the East Coast, primarily Harris Teeter, Publix. It's another thing you heard Ryan mentioned today. He's like, you're going into Publix, we're going into Publix, go into Publix and get jogofuel. Check that out. Also, Lifetime Fitness, Shields and small gyms. And we got a whole team that's out getting the stuff into small gyms and chiropractors

• 2:24:20Jocko Willink?

  offices and, uh, uh, hair cutting barbers.

• 2:24:28Jocko Willink?

  Hair cutting barbers. The team is out there because people want to have jogofuel. So if you're in one of those situations, you got a little shop or something, email [email protected]. Take care of your customer and plus make a little extra money. That's what we're doing. Also, originusa.com.

• 2:24:45Jocko Willink?

  You can get jeans, you can get boots, you can get hats, belts, t-shirts, hoodies, jujitsu gees.

• 2:24:53Jocko Willink?

  Jiu Jitsu rash guards, gi or no gi, I don't know. Look, sometimes people are gi, sometimes they're no gi, sometimes they transition, they go back, sometimes they're like, they're doing both. I don't know, I don't know what you're doing, but we got you covered, like literally covered because we've got rash guards or gees, got belts, custom belts, no, is what we're calling them.

• 2:25:14Speaker 02

  Jiu Jitsu belts and regular belts, by the way.

• 2:25:18Jocko Willink?

  Oh, that's right.

• 2:25:19Speaker 02

  At the origin.

• 2:25:19Jocko Willink?

  It's true. And by the way, all this stuff is a hundred percent made in America, which is a big deal. Because, and we've been making it in America. We didn't just jump on the made in America train like seven months ago, or jump on the made America train when they started putting tariffs and penalizing people for supporting communism.

• 2:25:38Jocko Willink?

  You're getting penalized for supporting communism. Okay, cool. We're not supporting communism over here. So, go to originusa.com and get some stuff that's made in America. Hunt gear, boots, whatever you need, training gear. I was just skiing, I was just wearing Origin.

• 2:25:57Speaker 02

  All day.

• 2:25:57Jocko Willink?

  It's so good to go. So that's what we're doing, originusa.com, go get some.

• 2:26:01Speaker 02

  Speaking of having you covered, if you want to represent, discipline equals freedom, we got your shirts and hoodies, hats on there. Got socks on there, I know I keep saying that, but it's true. Also, speaking of subscription scenario, new design every month, it's called the Shirt Locker. Subscribe.

• 2:26:20Jocko Willink?

  You're wearing that one right now that's some kind of, I didn't get.

• 2:26:23Speaker 02

  You didn't get.

• 2:26:24Jocko Willink?

  Well, I don't understand, like Ryan understood it immediately.

• 2:26:27Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:26:27Jocko Willink?

  What did he say it was? What is it?

• 2:26:29Speaker 02

  It's a, well, it's a kind of a inspired by the old Nintendo Entertainment System game cartridge of the game Contra.

• 2:26:39Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:26:40Speaker 02

  Remember the game Contra?

• 2:26:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, because I remember you telling me about the super spreader or something.

• 2:26:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, hell, yes. So no, Super Contra has the spreader, just like regular Contra, and a spreader is one of the weapons you can get. You know, these two ramble type guys, anyway, it's a game. For those who know, they know. So yes, if you look at the video game cartridge from the old Nintendo Entertainment System, this was like the graphics, but instead of Contra.

• 2:27:01Jocko Willink?

  He's killing donuts.

• 2:27:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's you killing.

• 2:27:06Jocko Willink?

  Donuts.

• 2:27:06Speaker 02

  Hell yeah. So that's one, that was one of the designs, I think, maybe two, a year, two years ago, something like that. Anyway, so yeah, they're different kinds of designs, all representing discipline equals freedom in some capacity, but they're just a little bit kind of outside the box type stuff. Anyway, people seem to like it. Uh, yes. Again, it's called the short locker and it's on jocko store.com.

• 2:27:26Jocko Willink?

  Check that out. Also check out Colorado craft beef.com and primalbeef.com. This is where you can get steak. You can get burgers. You can get jerky. You can get beef sticks. You can get beef tallow from Colorado craft beef. I've been cooking in the beef towel now like a hundred percent. Are you doing that too?

• 2:27:44Speaker 02

  Yes, sir, I am.

• 2:27:45Jocko Willink?

  It's good to go.

• 2:27:46Speaker 02

  Yes, it is.

• 2:27:46Jocko Willink?

  Good to go. Now I haven't, I'm not one of these people that's like putting it on my skin yet, but that's the thing. Yeah, for real.

• 2:27:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, I've done that. So oddly, um, I got, it wasn't from, wait, Colorado craft beef doesn't give the skin, do the skin one, right?

• 2:28:01Jocko Willink?

  You can put it on your skin.

• 2:28:02Speaker 02

  Oh, okay. Like just the straight tallow.

• 2:28:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, just beef tallow.

• 2:28:05Speaker 02

  I, so I heard about the beef tallow. This is good for your skin or whatever. So I was like, all right. And so I got this one freaking, what was the company? It's somebody like we know. Anyway, so I got it. It's like the smaller thing, more expensive, quality. Hell yeah. And I put it on, I was like, mm, okay, cool. If that's what we're doing, that's what we're doing. Just gotta have faith kind of a thing. And bro, my dog just keeps like chasing me around and licking me.

• 2:28:26Jocko Willink?

  I'm not joking either.

• 2:28:28Speaker 02

  And I never put it on after that. So just know, hey, I'm not saying it's bad for your skin. I'm not saying, don't do it. I'm just saying, hey, Ben.

• 2:28:34Jocko Willink?

  You got the dogs.

• 2:28:35Speaker 02

  Just know, just know what you're getting into. That's all. If you're gonna put it on your skin.

• 2:28:38Jocko Willink?

  Well, even if you're not gonna put it on your skin, you can cook with it.

• 2:28:40Speaker 02

  All day cooking.

• 2:28:41Jocko Willink?

  GTG. So check that out. Primalbeef.com and Colorado craft beef.com. Also subscribe to the podcast. Also check out you jocko underground.com. Those are coming out every week. We're answering questions. Check out our YouTube channels. Check out books. We got a few books for you. For the books I referred to today, number one, Ramadi declassified, which is from Colonel Anthony Dean. He was the battalion commander of the one, three, five, a great guy. And he wrote an incredible book, so detailed and get that book if you can. Also, I mentioned a book today called Love Nick, which is notes, emails, recordings of David Nick Crombie.

• 2:29:26Jocko Willink?

  A real moving book and just shows you the kind of people that are out there serving their country and have made the sacrifice that we can never repay. So, thanks for that Nick. And then of course, I've written a bunch of books, everything from Extreme Ownership, The Economy of Leadership, Leadership, Tragedy and Tactics Field Manual, and then I've written a bunch of kids books as well. Matter of fact, I sent the whole rack of kids books to Ryan a couple of months ago and he was super stoked on them, said the kids are, the kids are digging them. So, Way of the Warrior Kid, one, two, three, four, and five. Also, Mikey and the Dragons. Bunch of books out there for you. Check those out. Also, Echelon Front, we have a leadership consultancy. We solve problems through leadership. If you have problems inside your organization,

• 2:30:10Jocko Willink?

  they are leadership problems. And that means that leadership is the solution. So if you want to check that out, or you need help, go to echelonfront.com for details. Also, we have an online training academy because leadership is, is skills. It's, it's a skill that you must learn. And in order to learn it, you must be taught. So that's why we have extremeownership.com. It's an online leadership education academy. But no matter who you are, no matter what your position at work or at home, you're in a leadership position. So if you want to learn how to lead and improve every aspect of your life, go to extremeownership.com. And if you want to help

• 2:30:51Jocko Willink?

  service members, active and retired, you want to help their families, you want to help Gold Star families, check out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee. Incredible organization. You know, we, we, through that organization are able to help so many people. And, you know, things come up all the time. I know there was just a veteran in need that reached out and within hours, we were able to help that individual financially. So, AmericasMightyWarriors.org. Incredible organization. Thank you Mama Lee for what you do. Also, HeroesAndHorses.org, taking veterans up into nature to find their souls again. Micah Fink, check out HeroesAndHorses.org. Also,

• 2:31:36Jocko Willink?

  Jimmy May's got an organization, BeyondTheBrotherhood.org, helping SEALs get out of the military and establish themselves, reintegrate to the world.

• 2:31:46Jocko Willink?

  And then of course, you heard about it today, Canines for Warriors. You heard Ryan's story. It's an amazing organization, helping out so many people. And if you want to connect with Canines for Warriors, on the interwebs, it's caninesforwarriors.org.

• 2:32:03Jocko Willink?

  And then they have a YouTube, an Instagram, a Twitter X, and a Facebook, and that is @caninesforwarriors.

• 2:32:12Jocko Willink?

  And if you want to check us out, you go to Jaco.com. You can also check us out on social media, @JacoWillink, and then @EchoCharles.

• 2:32:22Jocko Willink?

  And just be careful, because when you're on there, there's going to be people that are going to try and destroy your life, one millisecond at a time, one swipe at a time. Don't fall for it. Thanks once again to Ryan Jackson for joining us, and thanks to you and your brothers for everything you did for us in Ramadi, for the Army, and for America. Thank you, brother. And thanks to all our servicemen and women with a reverent salute tonight to Team Dealer, Bravo Company, 26 Infantry.

• 2:32:56Jocko Willink?

  It's an honor to serve alongside you guys. Thank you for your service and your sacrifice. Also, thanks to our police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, Border Patrol, Secret Service, as well as all other first responders. Thank you for your service and sacrifice here at home to keep us safe. And everyone else out there,

• 2:33:19Jocko Willink?

  look, man,

• 2:33:22Jocko Willink?

  the path is hard. The life is hard, and sometimes things don't go well. And sometimes things get dark.

• 2:33:33Jocko Willink?

  And when that happens, remember the services and the sacrifices that have been made.

• 2:33:42Jocko Willink?

  Remember that there's people that gave their lives for our freedom.

• 2:33:48Jocko Willink?

  We owe it to them to go out there and live. And that's all I got for tonight. And until next time, this is Echo and Jocko, out.