461: A Reflection On Growing Up With Jocko as A Father. w Rana Willink

>Join Jocko Underground< Rana Willink is the daughter of Jocko Willink. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu competitor and Instructor. Rana talks about growing up with Jocko as a father, fitness, Jiu Jitsu, and life. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 461 with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening.

• 0:08Jocko Willink?

  It was a good test. It was a good way to figure out who really had the will to win. And I'd already put them through some paces in the morning with your standard sprints and jumps and pushups and buddy carries and made them hit the surf and get wet and run a little bit more and all that kind of stuff. You know what I mean?

• 0:33Jocko Willink?

  I had tested them with some complicated instructions and various physical and mental tasks that required leadership and memory and attention to detail, this kind of stuff, right? And so then, as I'm really trying to parse out who wanted victory, I came up with another test and this wasn't a complicated test. I told them what they had to do was swim across the river, and this river is down by the ocean, swim across the river,

• 1:06Jocko Willink?

  go get the biggest possible rock that they could carry and then swim back. And whoever could put their rock at my feet, whichever rock was the biggest would win. And I figured it was a good test of more than strength. I wasn't really thinking about that or endurance. I wasn't really thinking about that. I was thinking of good ability to adapt because if you're going to carry a rock in one hand, you're going to have to adjust your swimming technique.

• 1:29Jocko Willink?

  And whoever could adapt and keep up their speed on the swimming would be able to win.

• 1:35Jocko Willink?

  So I gave them the, the starting command, which is stand by, bust them and off they ran and they all sprinted into water. You know, ankle deep and then waist deep and then chest deep and then because you know, the river gets deeper and then it got to the deep part. And so then they all started swimming across.

• 1:54Jocko Willink?

  I don't know how far it was, maybe the, the, the width of the rivers thirty five yards or something like that. It's probably about twenty yards in the middle. That's two, you know, that's above six feet, uh, deep. And so I'm watching and they, they get across the river and they're waiting out the other side. And they come up on the other side and I was watching and they were all kind of picking up their rocks and heading back towards the water, like a tennis ball sized rock, or maybe a baseball sized rock, or maybe a softball sized rock. And then they're all heading back into the water. But there was one individual

• 2:35Jocko Willink?

  who was looking around and picked up a big, a big giant monster rock.

• 2:44Jocko Willink?

  Had to lift it like sumo style deadlift. You know what I'm saying? Like, uh, strong man competition style. It took two hands and kind of wrapped around and picked it up. It was, it was certainly too big to be carried with only one hand and definitely you could not swim with this thing. So I thought to myself, there's a, gonna be some lessons learned for this individual. Not, maybe not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I watched and, and I see that competitor, right? And I see a look of determination as they walked back toward the river deeper. And, you know, ankles and then knees and then waist and then chest. Now I'm thinking,

• 3:27Jocko Willink?

  I'm getting a little curious. You know, you start paying attention. You see someone that's doing something totally different. And I, I, I'm a, I'm a waterman, right? I know that it is not possible to swim with this rock is not, especially because you can't use your hands. Maybe if you could tie it on to yourself, you could tread water for a moment, but even that, I don't think you could actually do it.

• 3:47Jocko Willink?

  So I didn't really think that this competitor was gonna be able to pull this off. It seemed like the, like I said, the bad judgment was gonna come into play and they'd get to learn a lesson, but they kept walking. Shoulder deep, the neck deep, and then chin deep, and then submerged. And I saw like the, the crown of the head, the scalp just disappear underwater, being weighed down by the, by the rock. And some time went by and you could see like little bubbles, like a little trail.

• 4:19Jocko Willink?

  And as the time passed, I thought, well, they're gonna be running out of breath soon. And right around that time, um, right as I started to get a little bit concerned, suddenly a face broke the surface of the water momentarily and grabbed a big freaking gasping breath of air and then went back under. And it was, it was real obvious that they had pushed themselves off the river bed and grabbed the breath and then sank back down and kept walking. And then that happened again. Another desperate but determined face breaching the surface and stealing a breath and then disappearing into the depths once again. And, but they were making progress.

• 5:05Jocko Willink?

  And after maybe the fourth one, it seemed, okay, they're gonna pull this off. And it was a long slog.

• 5:13Jocko Willink?

  But, you know, they drove on and this individual didn't really seem to care too much about the pain and the discomfort. And they moved closer and closer and finally their head came out of the water. And by this time, many of the other competitors had made it to me because they were kind of swimming. Um, and they'd paced, placed their, I'll say their humble rocks at my feet. You know, the little apple sized rock, maybe a, maybe the biggest about a grapefruit size. Maybe two, three pounds. And then came the determined human lumbering out of the water with a sixty or seventy pound rock.

• 5:55Jocko Willink?

  A colossal stone cradled in her arms, like a big mass of depleted uranium. Uh, she came over to me, dropped the boulder at my feet and looked at me and smiled. Because she knew she had won and we both knew that it wasn't even close. And so I called the attention of the other competitors, probably about.

• 6:22Jocko Willink?

  I don't know, maybe 15 girls between the ages of seven and 10, all from all family friends of or friends of my family that we were all camping at the beach. And I told them that the winner by a long shot was Rana Willink, my daughter. And she smiled and I smiled too. I think she was probably seven or eight years old at this time. And this was one of the very, one of the first and most profound indicators of her level of determination in life. And she continued on that path of determination, pushing herself, getting better. And she's always done that with a smile on her face.

• 7:04Jocko Willink?

  And it's an honor to have her here with us tonight to share some stories of life, her life, her struggles, her lessons, and hopefully allow me to share some of mine as well. Rana Willink, thanks for joining us.

• 7:18Speaker 01

  Hello.

• 7:20Speaker 01

  Thanks for having me.

• 7:22Jocko Willink?

  You were, you were a tough little kid in the river.

• 7:28Jocko Willink?

  How come you wanted to win so bad?

• 7:32Speaker 01

  No clue. I just did.

• 7:34Jocko Willink?

  Do you remember that pretty?

• 7:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, I remember it. Yeah.

• 7:39Speaker 01

  My dad used to make us do all these like evolutions at San Alejo, a place where we camped with a bunch of family friends and made us carry like our little mini blow up boat on our heads and go down to the river. It was fun.

• 7:58Jocko Willink?

  It is fun.

• 8:00Jocko Willink?

  All right, let's go back, let's go back before that. What is your, what is the first thing that you remember of life?

• 8:09Speaker 01

  First thing I remember from life?

• 8:17Speaker 01

  I don't know, like there I. I remember elementary school a lot, growing up in Ocean Beach. And with my two other siblings at the time and. I'm going to elementary school. Being like super.

• 8:39Speaker 01

  Um, know it all and annoying in like grades one through four. Like if I got a, if I got a question wrong on the multiplication test, I would cry. Like I was such, I just wanted.

• 8:50Jocko Willink?

  Do you remember your shy phase? Do you remember that?

• 8:53Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, I do. Definitely.

• 8:54Jocko Willink?

  Cause when, when you were really little, you were really extremely shy. And so when anyone would come over to talk to any of our family, you would hide behind. Mom's legs, you'd hide because you were super shy. Uh, I don't know if this had anything to do with it, but at one point your older sister cut your hair. You know, kind of off.

• 9:17Speaker 01

  She cut all my hair off.

• 9:18Jocko Willink?

  She cut your hair kind of off. And. Um, you know, you had long hair and then I don't know where. Um, your mom and my wife, I don't know where she was, but. Your sister Freya got out scissors and decided to style your hair. And so you just kind of cut it off.

• 9:36Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, and I would do anything she told me to do because it was my older sister. So she said, we're cutting your hair. I was like, all right.

• 9:46Speaker 01

  Guess we're doing it.

• 9:48Jocko Willink?

  Uh, you, the other thing that's interesting, I remember there was a, we, we had, there was some kind of a party at the SEAL Team. And. Um, one of my, my platoon chief at the time, who's a great friend of mine, who I'd known since I was at team one back in the day. And. He, he, he was married and he had one kid and his, and he showed up at this party. And his daughter. Was like the cutest little thing and her hair was braided and there was ribbons in her hair. I think they were like white and pink ribbons in her hair and they matched her skirt and her skirt matched her shoes. And she just was cute as a button. And then we pull up.

• 10:33Jocko Willink?

  And it our family, our children look like feral animals of like no. First of all, my son didn't wear shoes. He rarely ever wore a shirt and he just wore swim trunks.

• 10:50Jocko Willink?

  And these are like Navy exchange swim trunks or or Target swim trunks. You know, just that was what he would wear. Uh, my, my oldest daughter would wear a ballerina. What is it called a tutu?

• 11:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:06Jocko Willink?

  She would wear a pink tutu like this is just what she was wearing. And then you would wear a leotard. Um, all the time. And the thing is, everyone's like, all these pieces of clothing were grimy, like

• 11:21Speaker 01

  So nasty.

• 11:22Jocko Willink?

  So nasty. And it wasn't even, my wife would wash them, but they were just stained. And it was like, I think, I think the attitude for my wife was instead of being like, no, you have to like, put this on, no, you need to, no, you she was like, okay, if that's what you want to wear, cool, whatever. I got three freaking kids below the ages of six. Like, I'm over it.

• 11:44Speaker 01

  Wear whatever you want.

• 11:45Jocko Willink?

  Wear whatever you want. And so, yeah, you, you kids definitely grew and it was a pretty wild scene. But that was the first time I was like, oh, if you saw my family from if you didn't know anything, you'd be like, damn, these people fell in some hard times. You know what I'm saying? So, so, um, that's kind of the early, the early kids. Now, you mentioned, um, camping up at Santa Lejo. That's something that we did every summer for between a week and two weeks, which is awesome.

• 12:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:19Jocko Willink?

  And a lot of times, I don't know if you remember this, I would have to work.

• 12:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So I would just go to work because it's, it's an extra, whatever, half an hour to get to work. But the funny thing is, Echo Charles, is this campsite. Like, if you think you're quote, going on vacation, you might think you go somewhere that's far away. No, dude, this is 20 minutes from our house. But everyone would go and it would just be chaos and awesomeness for a week to two weeks. Sun, everyone would just get annihilation sunburns.

• 12:57Speaker 01

  Chafing?

• 12:58Jocko Willink?

  Chafing everywhere from just all day in the water. You know, feet would be annihilated and but it was cool. It was awesome. Did you enjoy Santa La Joa?

• 13:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, I feel like when we were coming up with things to talk about, that's like the most, that's like the place where I have the most memories like as a whole family. Cause everything was just like, everything was so chaotic at our house that it was a place where we all went. And we all just had to be there. There was no like ballet lessons to go to, no gymnastics, none of that. So, and I don't really remember you leaving to work. I think we were probably just down at the beach the entire time you were working. But yeah, I don't, I, I feel like all of my good memories with like my childhood friends and the fam was all there.

• 13:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, we did tent camping and then we graduated to a pop-up trailer. You know what that is, Echo? It's like the one that looks flat and then you unlatch it all and it kind of pops out.

• 13:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 14:00Jocko Willink?

  And then eventually, God bless, we got the, the lazy days, which was a real RV, a class C RV. And it was funny because, I don't know, I think I paid like, like, I don't know, eighty-three hundred dollars for it. You know what I'm saying? But it was fire. It was so cool.

• 14:20Speaker 02

  So wait, the tent, so when you're talking tents, right? The, the, you know, the initial offering. Were, were they like the big tent, you know, like the size of this room kind of tent or like each individual tent, one guy, two guys?

• 14:32Jocko Willink?

  Maybe you have like a family tent that holds four or something.

• 14:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, but it's four, like everybody next to each other.

• 14:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah. My wife and I would sleep in one big one and the kids would. And my son would actually just sleep in like on the dirt. Or, yeah, or on a chair. Like we'd find him and his buddy and just

• 14:53Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, knocked out.

• 14:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, just knocked out on the campfire, around the campfire.

• 14:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's how I guess.

• 14:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it was, but this is something, a piece of advice that I've give people now is if you can pull your kid out of school, do it. Like if you, if you have an opportunity, you've got some, you know, at work, you're going to such and such a place, or you get something, some opportunity to pull your kid out of school and take him to do something, do it, like a hundred percent do it and do it as much as you can. I mostly did that with my son, just because, I don't know, I guess because he's a boy and he surfed and he was more interested in other things. But I wish I would have done it more with you guys too.

• 15:37Jocko Willink?

  Because it's just way better. It's just way, you, you will have more memories than you will get from your desk at school.

• 15:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, it feels like, also, I mean, obviously it depends on what you guys going to do. You don't pull them out of school to go watch TV or something like that. But yeah, right. See what you're saying. But it gives them like reps in the real world too, you know, little experience, but it's like, it's not just, oh, it's a fun experience. It's like you get playing time in the real world rather than in the class, the classroom. So it feels like, yeah, that would be very beneficial.

• 16:10Jocko Willink?

  Get that playing time.

• 16:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, man. It's true.

• 16:13Jocko Willink?

  All right. So you meant, you know, I started off talking about these like competitions and stuff. And there was a lot of, there's a lot of fun competitions to be had. Like how, how, who can hold their head in the ice chest, like, you know, a cooler filled with ice?

• 16:33Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 16:33Jocko Willink?

  Who can hold their head in there the longest?

• 16:38Speaker 02

  Wait, Hannah did. So these competitions are, you know, all these different evolutions or did he participate or?

• 16:44Speaker 01

  No, he just.

• 16:45Speaker 02

  He was a coach. He was a ref or whatever.

• 16:47Jocko Willink?

  The commander.

• 16:48Speaker 01

  He just came up with the ideas.

• 16:50Speaker 02

  You guys do it.

• 16:51Speaker 01

  But I feel like every, like, I don't remember much not being like a competition. Yeah.

• 16:57Speaker 02

  So no like fun, like leisure activities. It was just more like, all right, see who comes out on top today.

• 17:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:03Speaker 02

  All right. Good tip.

• 17:05Jocko Willink?

  Like who can hang on this pull-up bar the longest?

• 17:07Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 17:09Jocko Willink?

  All even things like and you see me do this echo Charles even things like talent shows.

• 17:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:14Jocko Willink?

  Cause you know, they would put on like a talent show or something.

• 17:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:17Jocko Willink?

  And I would just judge.

• 17:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:19Speaker 01

  Like holy judge.

• 17:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 17:21Speaker 01

  Not even like fun.

• 17:24Speaker 01

  Everyone wins. Not, not an everyone wins sort of situation.

• 17:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:28Speaker 01

  It was the winner got, got like an ice cream from the camp store. Or whatever, or just got like love from your father.

• 17:40Jocko Willink?

  Do you remember when your kids were having a, a jumping in the water diving contest?

• 17:44Speaker 02

  I remember very much. I got to witness this, uh, you know, scenario at my house. Yeah. There, I mean, like, uh, I don't know. Was it dive cannonball? It was like anything into the, into the water.

• 17:53Jocko Willink?

  Some kind of jump off the platform thing.

• 17:55Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I saw your, uh, your method right away. I was like, oh, I see what he's doing. Okay. Okay. You know?

• 18:00Jocko Willink?

  And it's, the cool thing is they get into it.

• 18:03Speaker 02

  Oh yeah. It works. It takes hold for sure.

• 18:05Jocko Willink?

  Even though there's no prize of any kind in that case.

• 18:09Speaker 02

  Actually, Rana's right. You're probably more right than you, than you realize. Love from your father. So if it's like, if Jock was over here blowing up the set with his presence, you know, his voice is all loud. All the kids are like, who's that guy? And then he's giving tips and saying, that's really good. His, I'll let you explain the method, but you know, when he's like implementing his method. Bro, that's really what you're striving for. Like I just want approval from this guy, you know, which actually I did learn something from, from that.

• 18:35Jocko Willink?

  Where's the, where's the takeaway?

• 18:37Speaker 02

  Well, tell your method first, then I'll say the takeaway.

• 18:40Jocko Willink?

  Basically the method is to give them really like distinct feedback. So like when your kids, and it was a whole bunch of kids. I don't know. It was probably 10 kids, but let's say Freddie gets up. And Freddie like walks to the end of the diving board and he jumps off and these kids are like six. I mean, he's just jumping off like a wild man. But I'd say, all right, Freddie, hey, listen, overall, not bad technique, a little bit marginal because your hands were flapping all over the place. But most important, your attitude, as you walked up, you didn't look like you were having a good time. No one wants to see you not having a good time. So because of that, I'm docking you down to a 2.9. Try again.

• 19:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:18Jocko Willink?

  And the next time Freddie would go, his hands would be controlled at his side and he'd have a big smile on his face and he would get, all right, there we go. 4.2.

• 19:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:26Jocko Willink?

  Improvement.

• 19:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:28Jocko Willink?

  So there's the method.

• 19:30Speaker 02

  Do you remember this method, like, does that ring a bell? It's like, oh, that makes sense because he did that?

• 19:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, it wasn't just like, oh, good job. Because then you're like, oh, they're not really watching and they don't really care.

• 19:39Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 19:39Speaker 01

  But when it's, well, it feels like maybe just a good job would be like, okay, we're just doing a dumb like diving contest. But then it's like, so when the judge is serious, you're like, oh shit, I gotta get serious now, you know? But like, we can't even play card games in our family. That's like, we've, we've tried to play multiple like, card games, spoons, all this. Bro, it just gets so chaotic. And we even, my dad came up with this thing during the game. Where it's not just like you're out, it's like you're getting ejected.

• 20:11Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 20:11Speaker 01

  You're getting ejected from the game.

• 20:13Jocko Willink?

  If you're out from the game, Echo, I would go, Echo Charles, and everyone would put their hand up and then, and then retract their hand back. I go, Echo Charles, eject.

• 20:24Speaker 01

  And like, that feeling was horrible.

• 20:27Speaker 02

  So not that, not that you were kicking them out. It was like a legitimate part of the game.

• 20:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, so you know a game like, uh, uh, musical chairs?

• 20:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 20:37Jocko Willink?

  So if you didn't get it, you didn't get your chair, it wouldn't just be like, go to the side. It would be like, Echo Charles, and everyone would go, eject.

• 20:47Speaker 02

  So it's like this hostile spectacle.

• 20:49Jocko Willink?

  And there's games like spoons is like that. We have a lot of games that narrow the playing field. The symbol game that narrow the playing field and narrow the playing field and narrow the playing field. A lot of games like that.

• 21:00Speaker 01

  But we did it to my younger sister. We like ejected her and she was like bawling her eyes out. I don't think we've played since, honestly.

• 21:10Jocko Willink?

  Well, your younger sisters.

• 21:11Speaker 01

  My mom got so mad at us.

• 21:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 21:13Speaker 01

  But it's all.

• 21:15Jocko Willink?

  Well, there's a, the other end of the spectrum is, uh, Helen is so nice that she wouldn't, you know, she couldn't even bring herself to say eject. Even though she was playing the game and you're authorized to eject someone and verbally communicate that with the group. And ostracize that person, you know, we'd all do it. And then she'd be like, it's okay, sweetie, like as we're ejecting Echo Charles. She'd be like, it's okay, Echo, you could, you did great. No one believed her. Like not even the person that got ejected was just like, she is.

• 21:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, that makes sense, but but doesn't surprise me that kind of stuff. And there's a lot of, I think there's like a lot of value in these things like, does Jocko go too hard sometimes? Maybe, but like especially that, um, the judging the diving contest. So the takeaway was,

• 22:06Speaker 02

  you're right, Rana, where if you're just like, hey, good job to everyone, usually they're kids, right? You wanna, you don't wanna freaking insult them, especially in front of everyone or nothing like that, right? But there's this, there's if you, if you kind of can construct this method, which Jocko apparently did, um, it's even more effective than a good job, you know? So it's like, A, you're engaged, so you engage, like I, I notice every detail of your jump. So they feel special, like, oh, he cares, you know, kind of a thing. That's A, boom, they're signed on already. Once the, when you're like, hey, I like how you did this, but then you, then you give them praise, but not too much praise. You don't get the hundred percent praise. You give them like the eighty-five percent praise, and then you address the remaining fifteen percent. Now they got motivation and admission. See what I'm saying? And he's engaged and Jocko's gonna be there the whole time with me, you know, like evaluating whatever.

• 22:51Speaker 02

  Bro, you see this kid's freaking face light up. Can't wait to get back on that freaking wall.

• 22:55Jocko Willink?

  And you know what else is an important lesson about that? Is if your kid jumps off the thing and you go, hey, that was great.

• 23:04Jocko Willink?

  And it wasn't great? The message is, whether it's great or not, the message is, you've achieved it.

• 23:10Speaker 02

  Right.

• 23:11Jocko Willink?

  If you say, hey, that was good, but here are some things you, the message is, I believe in you and you can do better.

• 23:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you can do better.

• 23:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:20Jocko Willink?

  And who doesn't want to do better, right?

• 23:22Speaker 02

  I know.

• 23:22Jocko Willink?

  And you know, occasionally you'd get someone that, you know, was really struggling with some particular thing. And it's not like I'd be like, whoa, you know, I would tactically kind of support that individual. I wouldn't go too hard in the paint. If there was a kid that was maybe a little bit uncoordinated on some particular evolution, you know, I might not pick him for the team, but. I'm just kidding, bro.

• 23:47Speaker 02

  No, the thing is, even when you're explaining it, like, I'm thinking, A, I'm like, kind of mentally taking notes, like, okay, how am I gonna implement this? But I gotta bring my version. I can't bring your version. I gotta bring my version. See what I'm saying? And I'm remembering that ever since then, that's what I would do. Cause that's a common game right there. Who can do the best cannonball, who can do the best dive or whatever?

• 24:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, but it's also like, yeah, who can do the best anything?

• 24:08Speaker 02

  Anything. Yeah, yeah. So I implement every single time. If I got the opportunity, boom, that, that, that

• 24:14Jocko Willink?

  That's what we're doing.

• 24:14Speaker 02

  Concept is in there. Oh, yeah, a hundred percent. But, um, I do add my, like, certain flair, like, if someone does it. Like, if they do one that's, like, not up to par, I'd be like, hey, that's the worst one I've ever seen in my life. But it adds, they know I'm joking, you know, whatever, but it's like, it adds a little bit of fun. They're all troubled. But, uh, yes, but, yeah, every single time.

• 24:36Jocko Willink?

  I used to, like, roast the kids too. Not just the kids, I'd roast everybody. Around the campfire.

• 24:42Speaker 02

  Completely.

• 24:42Jocko Willink?

  With a guitar. So I would, like, sing songs.

• 24:46Speaker 02

  Makes sense to me.

• 24:47Jocko Willink?

  About each individual kid. And like, and they were all, they were kind of, kind of, a lot of times based around scatological humor. Do you know what that is? Do you know what that is, Rhonda? No. It's like, the nice way of saying really immature jokes about, like, poo.

• 25:04Speaker 02

  Oh, right.

• 25:05Jocko Willink?

  So I, you know, it'd be like, this kid farted, you know, and it would just, you know, the little kids, they think that's the craziest thing they've ever heard in their lives, like.

• 25:12Speaker 02

  Amazing, yeah.

• 25:14Jocko Willink?

  But that was, that was good. But, you know, the thing is, you know, I mentioned that, like, my wife sort of, like, let the kids kind of wear what they wanted to wear. We weren't real super, uh, strict on all these little items, you know? I think a lot of times when I talk to people about their kids, I always, I think they're always surprised that I was very.

• 25:38Jocko Willink?

  laissez faire, you know, like war for in the parlance of our times was more chill, you know.

• 25:46Jocko Willink?

  And we even tried it when you guys were little, like one Christmas. We asked the kids, well, you know, go to bed. Cause Santa's gonna come and if you're awake when Santa shows up, dude, he's leaving. And they were they then they somehow convinced us that whenever they woke up. We're going like we want to open presents right then. So they woke up at one o'clock in the morning. And so we all got up at one o'clock in the morning. And we opened all the presents. And then it was just kind of ruined everything. We did implement a rule there, which was like not don't get out of your room until seven o'clock in the morning.

• 26:25Speaker 01

  And we do order. For opening presents, it's not everyone opens at once.

• 26:30Speaker 02

  Oh, like

• 26:30Speaker 01

  it's old or it's youngest to oldest.

• 26:33Jocko Willink?

  Youngest to oldest.

• 26:34Speaker 01

  And then you re.

• 26:36Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, rounds.

• 26:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 26:38Jocko Willink?

  Do you guys do? What do you do?

• 26:40Speaker 02

  Free for all? It's not, yeah, free for, I mean, I remembered, yeah, one at a time. It's not strict though, but it's, yeah, one at a time, you know, we want to see what is it, you know, whatever. For the thing, but no, it's not in order.

• 26:51Speaker 01

  For the free for all for us, it was done in two minutes. It's like one oh two AM and we're like, oh, all right.

• 26:57Jocko Willink?

  That was a bummer. The funny thing about that is like, we didn't have much money, you know. At all. And so a lot of what I would buy something.

• 27:10Jocko Willink?

  I would save the box. So for instance, when I would get a computer, I'd save the box for three years, four years. And then just when Christmas time would roll around, package that bad boy back up, you know, zeroize the computer. Here you go.

• 27:26Speaker 02

  Wait, another computer, that same computer or put something else in the box?

• 27:29Jocko Willink?

  Same. So if I got a new computer every three or four years.

• 27:34Speaker 02

  Oh, you get the old one.

• 27:35Speaker 01

  I got it. I got his old computer multiple times.

• 27:38Speaker 02

  Actually, that's not bad.

• 27:39Speaker 01

  It's not bad at all.

• 27:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 27:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:42Jocko Willink?

  I would try and

• 27:42Speaker 01

  I honestly didn't even know. I thought it was new. I was stoked.

• 27:50Speaker 01

  I was like, dang, all right. I got a new computer. We're doing good.

• 27:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, we're stoked on that one.

• 27:57Jocko Willink?

  You, the other thing that's that I remember about you being a kid is you are freaking strong as a child.

• 28:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:05Jocko Willink?

  Like, um, not normal. You are not normally strong.

• 28:11Speaker 01

  That's what he always says. There like I have a multiple memories on different occasions of my dad making his friends pick me up and just realizing how dense I am, so to speak. And they were like a couple of words he'd use, but dense, heavy.

• 28:29Jocko Willink?

  These aren't the best words. So.

• 28:31Speaker 01

  I mean.

• 28:31Jocko Willink?

  This is, this is a, a lesson. So I said, I was gonna go over some lessons on for me. This is a good lesson for me because in my mind, I was literally as stoked as I could possibly be. Cause you know how different people have, um, different strengths, right? So you, you know, when you train with someone in jujitsu, I don't. With girls, it's with training with girls is a lot different. You don't, you don't run, you don't have as much of a regular occurrence of this type of human. But people that are just, they're built, they're built different. And you're like, okay, this dude's freaking so heavy, so strong, super dense. And usually it's a type of person that has, uh,

• 29:16Jocko Willink?

  explosive

• 29:19Jocko Willink?

  musk muscle tissue. So like, what's that? Is that type two tissue? We'll say, uh.

• 29:24Speaker 01

  Like twitch or something?

• 29:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, fast twitch, the fast twitch muscle, right? Those people are usually they feel denser, stronger, and they're heavier for their size. And so you, again, it's, it's a lot more rare, in my opinion, that a girl has that. And it was so obvious when you were little because you were heavy.

• 29:45Speaker 01

  I know.

• 29:46Jocko Willink?

  And.

• 29:46Speaker 01

  You told me.

• 29:47Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I know. And the thing is, in my mind, that was like a huge compliment.

• 29:50Speaker 01

  And my sister is like.

• 29:52Jocko Willink?

  And your sister is normal.

• 29:54Speaker 01

  Well, she was like smaller, like she was a ballerina, my older sister. And he would say, she's like a bird. She's like a bird. He would have his two friends pick, pick us up or whatever. Like, oh my God, isn't she like a bird and isn't right? So dense, so heavy. I was like.

• 30:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 30:12Speaker 01

  Great.

• 30:13Jocko Willink?

  I that's how that's how stupid I am.

• 30:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:16Jocko Willink?

  Is I didn't even realize that that was a thing, you know what I mean? And the thing that I'm talking about is is girls are constantly being looked at and judged on what they look like. Whereas guys don't, there's really not that much of a difference. And the he the biggest component of the way girls are looked at is like their weight. So when your dad is like, dude, check how heavy she is. And then your friend lifts her up and goes, dude, she is heavy.

• 30:45Speaker 01

  They'd be like, dude, this is crazy.

• 30:47Jocko Willink?

  And they'd high five me.

• 30:49Speaker 01

  What the hell is this?

• 30:49Jocko Willink?

  Of course, they're high fiving me. And meanwhile, she's like, uh, wait a second.

• 30:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:53Jocko Willink?

  So it's just a it's just a little heads up.

• 30:58Speaker 01

  I remember you I remember one specific instance in the garage or like outside in our old house in Ocean Beach. In the back on the pavement, I remember Seth was over.

• 31:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 31:11Speaker 01

  And you made him do that. And I was like, a little bit embarrassed. Because I because I had like a crush on Seth.

• 31:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 31:18Speaker 01

  I was like, oh, we're gonna get married when we're older, blah blah. Okay, whatever. I was like eight.

• 31:22Speaker 02

  Nice.

• 31:23Speaker 01

  Seven. And so I was like, oh, shit, like, a little bit embarrassed, you know? But I I didn't really think like, I was like embarrassed, but then I was like, okay, whatever.

• 31:32Jocko Willink?

  Uh huh.

• 31:33Speaker 02

  So let me ask you this about that experience. The so because obviously he's not it's not like an intentional abuse or you know, nothing like this. It's like, in fact, it's the opposite.

• 31:45Speaker 01

  No, we talk about it now because I have because I'll be like, bro, you literally called me dense. You called me like a bowling ball, all this stuff. That's like, and he said, dude, that's the biggest compliment I could ever give you. Like, that's what he said now. And I understand it now as I've embraced that I'm like stronger. But like when I was a kid, I was like, oh, shit, dude, I gotta like change. I gotta do something about this because this is not good.

• 32:08Speaker 02

  Do you think that it because, okay, so there's a different so him saying that stuff for sure. It's gonna land what he's saying is landing, but his tone isn't like, uh, it's not a negative tone.

• 32:18Speaker 01

  No, no, no.

• 32:19Speaker 02

  So did you sense any of that going on like, or was it just, hey, you're saying I'm dense? That's bad.

• 32:24Speaker 01

  No, I feel like looking back on it, I remember him being stoked. It's just how I like. Twisted the words in my head.

• 32:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And also the way, for lack of a better word, like society.

• 32:36Speaker 02

  Right, right. Yeah, for sure.

• 32:37Jocko Willink?

  Is you look at the Barbies and you look at all the skinny, skinny, skinny, skinny. And here's your dad.

• 32:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:43Jocko Willink?

  Being like, dude, you're so heavy.

• 32:46Speaker 02

  Right.

• 32:46Jocko Willink?

  Like, just like that. I'm totally stoked.

• 32:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:50Jocko Willink?

  But I didn't, I'm an idiot.

• 32:52Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 32:52Jocko Willink?

  I just didn't make the connection.

• 32:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I feel like the outcome and the whole deal, it would be a completely different situation. If you said it in a negative, you know, in some bizarre world or something, if you're saying it with a negative tone, that's like a whole different thing. Even though you're not taking it as good, you'd still think it bad, of course, but it would, it would be like, I feel like the outcome would be like way different and way worse.

• 33:16Jocko Willink?

  And I guess the lesson here is like, even with the best intentions.

• 33:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, 100% yes.

• 33:21Jocko Willink?

  It was not good. And yeah, and imagine if you had negative intentions.

• 33:26Speaker 02

  Right.

• 33:26Jocko Willink?

  You know, you gotta, you gotta remember, this is sort of like a leadership lesson too. You know, I've, I talk about this sometimes, when you're in a leadership position, you gotta remember that your words carry more weight, right? A lot more weight. So if, if you work for me, Echo, and I go, even if I'm just joking around, you know, I go, uh, uh, I guess you didn't really want to put your best effort to this video. That you had made.

• 33:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:47Jocko Willink?

  You know, even though I'm joking.

• 33:50Speaker 02

  Right.

• 33:51Jocko Willink?

  It has weight.

• 33:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:52Jocko Willink?

  By the way, it also has weight when you say something complimentary. It's more, so a lot of times you don't recognize that, oh, I'm the boss here. I need to give some compliments because in my mind, I'm like, Echo doesn't really care if I say like, hey dude, that was a really good job.

• 34:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:11Jocko Willink?

  But in your mind, again, it's just because I'm thinking, oh, what, who am I? I'm just a dude.

• 34:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:16Jocko Willink?

  But in your mind, you're like, oh, the Jocko's the boss, he's the CEO, or he's the, the lieutenant, or whatever.

• 34:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:22Jocko Willink?

  In my mind, I'm like, I'm just another dude. So you gotta keep that in mind. Your weight, the word, the weight of your words as a leader is a lot more than you think they are. And the weight of your words as a parent is probably even heavier than that. And so even when you're saying something with the best intention, if you're not.

• 34:41Speaker 01

  Heavier, no pun intended.

• 34:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, they are certainly heavier.

• 34:45Speaker 02

  And denser, yeah.

• 34:45Speaker 01

  They are heavier.

• 34:46Jocko Willink?

  Yes. Yes, they land with more weight.

• 34:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, just, just more dense, like a bowling ball.

• 34:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 34:55Jocko Willink?

  So, there you go. Be careful what, be very careful what you say to your kids. And I'll tell you another thing that's important to remember is

• 35:06Jocko Willink?

  your kids, like, they're gonna go through little phases. Some of the phases that they go through are, are four days long. Some of the phases that they go through are four weeks long, some of them are four months long. But just about nothing that they're doing is gonna have some big, permanent, like, that's the way my child is now. Like, for a little while, they're gonna be into, uh, or, I don't know, they're gonna listen to music that you don't like. And you're gonna go, why are you listening to this crap? Or they're gonna be into some sport that you don't like. Or they're gonna, whatever, just name it. And we'll get to one of those because, you know,

• 35:46Jocko Willink?

  Rana got really, you got really into cheerleading for a little while. And I didn't like cheerleading. I like, I appreciate it more now. But at the time, there was things I looked at, I was like, oh, I don't really like this. But, and we'll, we'll, we'll get there. But my point is, if you feel like you need to impose corrective measures on your kids because they've taken one step off of the path, don't, don't. It's not worth it. Let them bump into the guardrails and be like, ooh, that path didn't seem really smart. I'm gonna go back towards the right path. But, because we try and, we worry. Another, another story I tell is about Ethan, uh, one of my son's friends.

• 36:25Jocko Willink?

  And when I took him to jujitsu when he was five years old, hated it. Didn't come back. Six-year-old, took him again, hated it. Seven-years-old, hated it. Eight-years-old, hated it. Nine-years-old, he's totally, totally fine, totally into it. And my point in saying that is, he got really good really quick. And it wasn't like his life was ruined because he didn't train. And it wasn't even like if he wanted to become a world champion, he would have become a world champion, even though he was starting five years later than, you know, even though he started training earnestly at nine. Doesn't really matter. So we think that our kid, you know, we make him into the world champion, like, bro, chill. You know who's gonna make your kid, you know who's gonna make the kid into a world champion? The kid. The kid is.

• 37:09Jocko Willink?

  So, give them some space, give them some room. Um, speaking of jujitsu and imposing jujitsu, and this is something I've talked about a lot on the podcast. And, which is, I imposed jujitsu on all my kids in a big way. And when I say in a big way, I mean, seven days a week.

• 37:32Speaker 01

  Not like what you're doing, Echo.

• 37:34Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 37:35Speaker 01

  Once a week, I love it. I love seeing them.

• 37:37Jocko Willink?

  Is it once a week right now, is it twice a week?

• 37:39Speaker 02

  Oh, for the kids? Yeah, one time. Sometimes twice, but.

• 37:42Jocko Willink?

  Once or twice, yeah, minimum, minimum.

• 37:44Speaker 02

  The mandatory, that's the routine.

• 37:45Jocko Willink?

  And what's the reason?

• 37:47Speaker 02

  What we always talk about where jujitsu is like, you were, they are not allowed to not know jujitsu growing up. Just for all the reasons that we explained and all the stuff, whatever, um, and they've accepted that. So, yeah, boom.

• 37:58Jocko Willink?

  So, just like you can't, uh, just like you have to use the toilet and not like, use the floor?

• 38:03Speaker 02

  Yes, exactly.

• 38:05Jocko Willink?

  Just like you have to brush your teeth in the morning, you just gotta do, hey, one day a week, that's just the way it is, that's just the thing.

• 38:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, fully.

• 38:11Jocko Willink?

  I think that's a really good policy. I think twice a week's a better policy.

• 38:14Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, I, I agree.

• 38:16Speaker 01

  I think once, once is good. I think for like, young kids, because even the, even the thought of changing it from once to twice, like I just had a kid in my kids' class cry and he, his mom told me, it's because we changed it from once a week to twice a week. I think once feels a little bit like, oh, that's fine, once a week, but it's like, bro, the day, the second day comes by so quick, that you're like, ooh.

• 38:42Speaker 02

  Again.

• 38:42Speaker 01

  You know?

• 38:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, especially, and you know, kids, and you're, actually, you have the most experience probably, because you teach kids' class.

• 38:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:50Speaker 02

  Or you teach my kids' class. Um, the, you see the difference, like if a kid has like, not that fun of a time, and then he, oh, I gotta go again day after tomorrow, it's gonna be like, more of a thing, you know? So, they can have like, a good fun, like my son, for example, you make him go by himself, he's gonna be like, can we go late, can we go home early, whatever, but if he's with Jack or who, or whoever, like some new friend, Avery, yeah. He'll come, he'll be like, fired up, ready to go, running around, and he don't wanna leave, see what I'm saying? So, it can be night and day, like for a kid.

• 39:22Speaker 01

  So, yeah, that, they like, he was like choking him out, having so much fun, learning, doing the technique with Jack.

• 39:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:29Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, having a friend really makes a huge difference. And by the way, that's not, not just for. Kids like today for open mat. I just texted like the group and I was like, hey, who's and I was kind of like, you know, you know, this and that I got a busy and I was like, hey, is anyone who's training and like few people Roger up Greg train Dr. Luke.

• 39:54Jocko Willink?

  Well, like, hey, I'm in and as soon as I saw him, I was like, yeah, totally pumped. Yeah, ready to roll. You didn't respond, by the way. Oh, well.

• 40:01Speaker 01

  Road work.

• 40:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's right.

• 40:04Speaker 01

  But that's how my older sister and I got back into Jiu Jitsu. We would just go to Victory to Nogi literally once a week and just go in the corner and do the moves and tell each other, oh yeah, this doesn't work. Like we would literally be, I think I could get out of this. I can just limb arm out of this. And but we would go, we would have fun and like having a partner, when you show up, you don't have to do that. Like look around. No one's making eye contact with you. It's worse, especially if you're a girl too. Not even to play the girl card, but like it is, it is like worse. And just having that set partner that you're like, okay, if I, if no one else wants to roll with me, I have that one person, we can just roll five rounds if we want. Yeah. You know?

• 40:46Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, you, you mentioned getting back into the Jiu Jitsu, but for a while you got out of Jiu Jitsu. And again, I believe this is because of me, because I was so like just passionate about Jiu Jitsu and um, you know, you guys were training every day. You were

• 41:06Jocko Willink?

  on Saturdays and Sundays, it was like five hours. It was like five hours in the gym. Actually, one of you was saying the other day that because we'd you go and you do the striking class, you do the grappling class. And then I would go do class and then I would do open mat. So there's five hours. And this is on a Saturday, every Saturday and Sunday. But I think it was either you or maybe your brother was saying, um, you would be sitting downstairs waiting for me and hear my flip flops coming down the stairs and you'd get like excited.

• 41:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, we would.

• 41:36Jocko Willink?

  Like what? It's time to go.

• 41:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's time to go. And when it wasn't his flip flops, bro. Sit back down. We gotta, we gotta push through, you know?

• 41:44Jocko Willink?

  And the other thing I did that was not smart is I would make you guys compete. And not like, that's not bad enough. Make you compete and then put you up a weight class, put you up a belt level, put you up an age group. And so you're going with kids that are more experienced, heavier. And older than you.

• 42:05Jocko Willink?

  And

• 42:05Speaker 01

  Was that intentional?

• 42:06Jocko Willink?

  Yes, in my mind, I was like, oh, I want to make

• 42:08Speaker 01

  In my mind, it was like they because the tournaments were so small. It was like, all the girls are going to go together, no matter what bell like.

• 42:17Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 42:17Speaker 01

  Level.

• 42:18Jocko Willink?

  Sometimes it would be that. But then they'd be like, well, you know, because I would know the people running the tournaments and be like, hey, Jocko, do you want your daughter to go in this group? Which is like lower or her age. And we only had, we got three girls in there. We got two girls or three girls in the older group. And I got put in the older group. And, and I not kidding. I 100% in my mind, thought I was doing you kids, the biggest favor in the world. And just like, oh man, imagine how good they're getting right now. And here's the reality of the situation is you go, you enter the tournament, you go to someone that's bigger, stronger, heavier and older than you. You get smashed. It's not fun.

• 43:00Jocko Willink?

  You get defeated, you get humiliated because, because all, all fighting combat sports and all single.

• 43:12Jocko Willink?

  Opponent sports, which is you and another person. There's no team like no, you are, it's all you. And so it's humiliating and there's an added component that in jujitsu. You have to admit that this person is a superior predator than you are, even if it's a primal, like subconscious level. In your mind, even as a little kid, you go, oh, I can't stop this person from physically doing whatever they want to me. And, and actually I think it was Huberman. Who, who either he had a guest on or we were talking about this. But the way you should actually set things up, if you, when you do it intentionally, is you should try and get not just kids, but everyone.

• 43:57Jocko Willink?

  80% of the time they're winning.

• 43:59Speaker 02

  I think that was Jordan Peters.

• 44:00Jocko Willink?

  Oh, was it Jordan? Okay, so 80% of the time you're winning, 20% of the time you're losing. That's like, you feel good, you feel good, but I got beat, but I know I can win. So. I put you guys in scenarios where oftentimes it was, it was 90% losing.

• 44:20Jocko Willink?

  And it just

• 44:21Speaker 01

  I don't even really remember when like one to be honest.

• 44:24Jocko Willink?

  You won some.

• 44:25Speaker 01

  Oh, I won against my friend.

• 44:27Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, you had to go against one of your friends and you beat her and then you were crying.

• 44:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:31Jocko Willink?

  Cause you were sweet. Um. It's bad. Yeah. So, so what, what all the, um, the outcome of all this bad behavior by me was you and your sister and your brother were just like, we don't want to go, we don't want to go, we don't want to go. I remember we'd

• 44:50Speaker 01

  Cause we're just gonna get our ass kicked.

• 44:52Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, because I would also do this in practice. So like at the gym, it's like, oh yeah. Cause at the gym, you know, you've got the classes from whatever eight to 13. You've got 13 year old boys in there and I'd be like, Rana, here you go. Well, this kid is, you know, got a mustache. You know what I mean? Ren is eight. So it just wasn't fun. I didn't make it fun. And this is the biggest thing I tell people now with your kids. And it's just not with jujitsu, man. It's with everything. Make it fun. If you have a, happen to have a kid, cause I, we, I've had kids, there's been kids like this at victory over the years. You might have a kid that's a natural competitor and fun for them is going really hard and competing.

• 45:35Jocko Willink?

  And sometimes getting beaten. Th- there's kids like that. It's one out of every hundred. It's one out of every hundred. Most kids, first of all, they don't really care about the thing that you care about. Like they're like, dude, what are you, uh, what is this weird stuff where we roll around on the ground and try and choke each other? I don't even, you know, I don't want to do that. I want to draw or I want to play baseball or just some other thing. And, and sometimes you're the one that's into baseball. Dude, you don't understand, dude. You know how awesome it is for a person to be able to hit this tiny ball that's flying at 90 miles an hour? Do you know what kind of human skill that is? Kids like, I don't freaking care. It means nothing to me.

• 46:14Jocko Willink?

  Uh, that again, I'll bring this, this clip up again, and I don't even know what the movie is, but it's Matt Damon. Yeah, yeah. And he, and, cause they make a bunch of memes with it now where they're showing the kid, he's got like a squat rack in his room. Or he's got mats in his room, or he's got a bow and arrow in his room. And Matt Damon, the dad's, he's yelling at his kid. And this, you know, you can't make me live after your, you can't make me follow your dreams. And he's like, yes, I can. He's like, dad, why are you yelling? He says, cause it's a good dream.

• 46:45Jocko Willink?

  So eventually the pressure and I I realized eventually I was like, yeah, I'm I'm clearly doing something wrong.

• 46:56Speaker 02

  What was it that made you realize? Do you remember?

• 46:59Jocko Willink?

  Just they were freaking miserable and every time going to the gym was a gut check of like tears.

• 47:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:08Speaker 01

  Probably throwing.

• 47:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, being in the car like throwing stuff.

• 47:12Speaker 01

  We like threw like water bottles.

• 47:13Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, one time, yeah, one time they threw water bottle.

• 47:16Speaker 01

  Just like.

• 47:17Jocko Willink?

  From the back of the minivan.

• 47:19Speaker 01

  All three of us like crying like.

• 47:20Speaker 02

  Straight up rebellion.

• 47:21Speaker 01

  Trying to get our mom to like tell dad like they don't want to do this and dad's like, all right, well, eh, I don't care where we're going.

• 47:29Jocko Willink?

  For a while I said, I don't care and just be quiet, keep going.

• 47:32Speaker 02

  So you did that. It's a good dream. That's basically what you just did.

• 47:35Jocko Willink?

  I hundred percent did it.

• 47:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:36Jocko Willink?

  I'm, I'm, this is like, I wish I would have been able to hear this and I didn't. And so finally I was like, yep, you are being an idiot. And the big, the big disconnect that I had, and this is again, this is something I teach in echelon front all the time is

• 47:54Jocko Willink?

  I would never impose things on my platoon. I wouldn't be like, shut up, guys. This is what you're doing. I would never do that. I would talk to them and listen to their side of the story and explain to them why something's important. And there was no, you know, it's pretty easy in the SEAL teams. You're like, well, do you want to be prepared for war? And if you get to there in a conversation, the guys go, yeah, we want to be prepared. We'll go do the training or we'll get this piece of gear or we'll like, guys, we'll, we're all unified with one goal.

• 48:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:24Jocko Willink?

  So, and you could figure that out with jujitsu too. Like, hey, you're doing this with your kids right now. I could, Charles, like, hey, I just want you to be, you want to be prepared for life, right? Like you want to be able to handle yourself if something goes wrong and kids will kind of go, yeah.

• 48:38Speaker 01

  But even a kid can't really fathom like such long term.

• 48:42Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 48:42Speaker 01

  Like. Like if you were probably like, well, one day you're gonna, you're gonna need to find, okay, bro.

• 48:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 48:50Speaker 01

  No, that's not true.

• 48:51Jocko Willink?

  Yep. And that's why even in that situation, it's like going back to what I said about Ethan, like, okay, well, you know, you don't need to train right now then. And that's perfectly fine.

• 49:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:00Jocko Willink?

  Like, it's perfectly fine. It's way better than creating an antagonistic relationship with your platoon, or even worse, creating an antagonistic relationship with your kids, where they don't want to do it. And so after I realized that, and I wasn't happy about it, but I was like, well, yeah, I guess this is what we're doing. Now, I will say that I let the girls kind of stop. But my son, I was like, yeah, I didn't have.

• 49:28Jocko Willink?

  And then that, I think a lot of that came from the fact that

• 49:32Jocko Willink?

  in my mind, as a boy, you 100% are going to be fighting. Like, as a girl, you can avoid it. You can be quick witted in a lot of cases, but in my mind, especially from my old job, like, you have to just fight. You have to fight other guys. It's just happening. And I just kept him going. And, and, and I will say this as well. Once I isolated him from you two, from his two sisters, he was kind of more on board. And then the other thing is he started like, I think one of his buddies got it. I think Ethan got into it at the time. And so,

• 50:07Speaker 01

  Jonah.

• 50:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, Jonah. And so now that, now he had a couple buddies. But that mob mentality is, is gnarly. A classic example of that mob mentality is when, so we have, our first three kids are born, and then there's a seven year gap. So it's been seven years. And we're in our little house, 934 square feet in Ocean Beach, California.

• 50:35Jocko Willink?

  And my wife gets pregnant again. And so it's Halloween night. So this must have been, I don't know what year it was, but it's Halloween night. And we, we're, we're like, super stoked.

• 50:47Speaker 01

  2009, 2009, right?

• 50:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I think so. We're super stoked. And so we bring the kids together and we're like, guys, we got some great news. And they're, they're thinking like, what, we getting candy? What are we doing? We going to trick or treat? We going to the, we going to the Niners house? What are we, what's happening? We going up to the curse house? What are we doing? And we're like, Mom's pregnant and you guys are gonna have a little baby brother or sister. And it leading from the front, my oldest daughter was like, got the most horrified look on her face stormed away. Rana, you started just crying and then four followed suit and it was like, bro, what just happened?

• 51:34Speaker 01

  We were like, how could you guys do that to us?

• 51:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it was wild. I think Freya, your older sister. I think she was very sensitive about money.

• 51:45Speaker 01

  She was and is.

• 51:47Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 51:48Speaker 01

  To this day.

• 51:49Jocko Willink?

  Like she thought a child costs money and we don't have any money. And now you're gonna have another child. You guys are idiots and you're irresponsible.

• 51:59Speaker 01

  She literally would think that at the age of whatever, ten, be like, you guys are irresponsible.

• 52:07Speaker 02

  So why were you crying? Or like, what?

• 52:09Speaker 01

  I was just upset because Freya.

• 52:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. No, if you see like, if the person that you look up to is like freaking out, you're like, oh God, this is bad.

• 52:17Speaker 02

  That is a hundred percent real.

• 52:18Speaker 01

  And like, I looked up to Freya so much that my sister so much. Um, she would like, so basically when we were younger, we would get these coconut ice pops from this place and we were each allowed to have one. And my sister would finish hers first, knowing that she could ask me for a bite of mine and I would say yes. Because I had to because I thought she was like awesome. I still do think she's awesome, but she's like, can I have a bite? If, if not, I was getting, gonna get the silent treatment. So like, I guess I'm giving up my bite.

• 52:52Jocko Willink?

  Especially those, those coconut ice pops.

• 52:55Speaker 01

  Oh, so good.

• 52:55Jocko Willink?

  The pulp was at.

• 52:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, the, and the best bites. They're like coconut shreds.

• 53:01Speaker 01

  Bro, I would try to finish mine so fast.

• 53:05Jocko Willink?

  So you got, you know, so you start, you stopped training jujitsu. Um, and that's when you kind of got more really into gymnastics for a while.

• 53:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:15Jocko Willink?

  And you were into gymnastics.

• 53:20Jocko Willink?

  Did you like it? You liked it.

• 53:21Speaker 01

  I really liked it.

• 53:22Jocko Willink?

  Went to it a lot.

• 53:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, I went to it a lot, but I was really not good. I went to it a lot and like it was just some gymnastics place in Fueng Loma. And a bunch of my friends were in it and it was really fun. I just, it wasn't, it wasn't for me, like being, I wanted it so bad to be for me, but it wasn't. And so I, one of my friends started doing cheer, competitive cheerleading. And it's sort of similar to gymnastics, like tumbling and stuff. And actually in gymnastics, I liked the tumbling part. I wasn't really good on the bars and the beam. Like I would just fall off and stuff. Like once I got a new skill.

• 54:06Speaker 01

  And it was like the silliest skill ever. My dad was like filming and everyone's like, you got this. And it's just like me going around the bar. Like it was just like so, but, but then my friend started doing gymnastics and she said, you're gonna, like you would really, or my friend started doing cheerleading and she said, you're really gonna like this. And the Drews, family friend of ours. And I like moved from gymnastics to cheer. And like immediately was like in love with it. It was so much fun and so hard. Like I tell everyone that I, that I, like, people in jujitsu say, what sport did you do? I said, I did wrestling, but I also did cheerleading, which is random.

• 54:48Speaker 01

  I know it's an interesting combination. And they were like, cheerleading? Like what? And I was like, yeah, dude, that was hard. Like we, is, it was like a routine. So you're not cheering for anyone. You're, you're like going against different teams. And you're, it's like two minutes and 30 seconds of all out, like, like pushing yourself, flips, tumbling, lifting people.

• 55:12Speaker 01

  Like all well looking like at the at the cameras like having to look crazy. And it was so much fun. I had so much fun.

• 55:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, a lot of times people don't realize how hard that is. It's well, it kinda is gymnastics. In a way, do you guys like prop each other up and all that? So in college sports. They have the cheerleading team is girls and guys. And you'd think like, oh, a guy doing the cheerleader like it makes more sense for the guy to go play football. Brother cheerleading, it's like just as hard as football. Cause you gotta balance these girls up here like the guys are all buff and like big and stuff. And you gotta do it all game too.

• 55:51Jocko Willink?

  They must come from gymnastics.

• 55:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, for most of the time. Yeah, that's what it seemed like.

• 55:55Jocko Willink?

  Well, yeah, that's the thing. So the other thing I remember you tell me about.

• 56:00Jocko Willink?

  Cheer versus gymnastics is gymnastics is like. Super methodical, like you have to do each little, at least the place where you trained it was like. You have to do, imagine if, uh, imagine like a jujitsu place where, hey, before you can learn. The arm lock, you gotta learn the this sweep. And so we're not going to teach you this other thing until you know this thing and until you're proficient in it. And by the way, you're not going to be able to roll. Until you get your blue belt. So is that a good comparison, Rana?

• 56:33Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, we, we, we worked a lot on specific skills that were like mine weren't the prettiest, but I. But when I went over to cheer, like they were like, oh, can you do a standing backflip? And I'm like, no, and they're like, okay, let's get it. So I would, I just, I just. They would put a squishy pad down and you would go, but in gymnastics, it's like. You're the progression is so.

• 56:58Jocko Willink?

  It's slow and methodical.

• 56:59Speaker 01

  And I think I was kinda like, bro. Like, let me do some crazy stuff, you know, like I liked, I liked. I, I was not that great of a tumbler. It is, you have to be well rounded in, in competitive cheer. Like you have to jump, you have to do like jumps. Standing backflips, then you have to do tumbling, which is running, but then also you have to lift people above your head. And then you gotta look, remember the dance. It's just, it's just so much going on. And I think I really liked that aspect of it. Just. I don't know if I'm gonna land this freaking standing tuck. I might break my finger, which I did. I might break my finger, I might. Put my face on the mat, that's fine.

• 57:41Jocko Willink?

  Hmm.

• 57:42Speaker 01

  He's just like, that, that, that's all the more reason to like, go ham at it.

• 57:46Jocko Willink?

  And you, you used to puke every time?

• 57:48Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 57:48Jocko Willink?

  Like at the end of each.

• 57:49Speaker 01

  When we'd compete, like, when we'd compete, but even when we were getting ready to compete, we, we, like, you do your routine all out. So if someone falls, you gotta redo it. You gotta do the, redo the routine from like, zero, at, at least this is where I trained. And.

• 58:05Jocko Willink?

  Which is what?

• 58:06Speaker 01

  Is called Calico Soleil.

• 58:07Jocko Willink?

  Is Calico Soleil still around?

• 58:09Speaker 01

  I believe it is, yeah.

• 58:10Jocko Willink?

  Shout out Calico Soleil.

• 58:11Speaker 01

  Shout out Calico Soleil, shout out Coach Betty and Coach Angela. Okay, but they were legit, like, if we've, if we let someone fall, like, we were restarting and I would literally vomit because I was giving it, my, all, like, throwing myself over when I couldn't even do it regularly. Like, it was crazy.

• 58:31Jocko Willink?

  Where did you?

• 58:32Speaker 01

  But that's what I think, like, made me, in gymnastics, I don't think that I was very athletic. I think I kind of moved a little bit slower. I think, I don't know, like, I did, I worked out, we, we worked out, like, before school and stuff in elementary school. And I was like, I could do pull-ups and stuff, but like gymnastics, I, I remember watching videos and I'm like, ah. Like, it's, it's like, I'm not moving very well, but then when, during cheer, I feel like it taught me, like, athleticism, like, you're gonna throw yourself over your head, but you're gonna, like, land it. Because like, it's like, a really athletic dude can get a backflip very quickly.

• 59:10Speaker 01

  Because it's this, like, athletic, it's like, that moving yourself throughout, through the air and having to, like, really drive off your legs and, and that's that. And you gotta land it.

• 59:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 59:23Speaker 01

  Or else you're redoing the routine.

• 59:25Jocko Willink?

  Um. Is that, when, when did you get someone to freaking handstands? Was that from gymnastics?

• 59:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was gymnastics. It, that was like, the one thing that I. Really just got quickly. I don't know what it was. A lot of people like progress way faster than me and moved to different gyms and for gymnastics. But when we had the handstand competition, bro.

• 59:51Jocko Willink?

  Echo, I'm I'm not kidding. She would walk around the house, our house, just to handstand, just walk around, like, show up for dinner. Like coming from her room, she'd just.

• 1:00:04Speaker 01

  Through the hallways.

• 1:00:05Jocko Willink?

  Through the hallways, like everywhere. She would just handstand, just walk around. It was like, you know, when someone has a a fidgeting habit, they turn their pen or they they uh do that with their lips or they whatever tap their foot. It was like that, but she just like would be standing there and just do handstands and just like stand there and just do a handstand, walking around.

• 1:00:26Speaker 01

  And my feet would be flying everywhere, bro. Like I was gonna kick you in the face.

• 1:00:29Speaker 02

  Was that, did it feel like a fidget or was it like you're just like kind of into it that hardcore?

• 1:00:35Speaker 01

  I just loved it. I just loved going going on my hands. I thought it was so fun.

• 1:00:39Speaker 02

  Well, I don't know if you know this about me. I had a handstand phase as well.

• 1:00:41Speaker 01

  Really?

• 1:00:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, from judo when I was small. So I was maybe ten, eleven. Nah, it was before fifth grade. So yeah, maybe nine. Anyway. I took judo and one of the drills was walking on your hands across the mat and back. No one could do it. You just walk in. Then if you go down, you continue, right?

• 1:00:59Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:00:59Speaker 02

  One guy could do it. It's maybe a twenty year old guy and he was like kind of buff. And I remember everyone like being so impressed with this guy. And I was like, man, that'd be cool if I was that guy, you know, it's like the new guy. But I was like, what if I was that guy who could do it too, you know? So I'd just go home and practice and I I think you're right. I think guys want to know. I was one of these guys who like kind of picked it up quick and not that I could do it really good, really quick, but the progress was quick. Like when I practiced for like even like one hour, I would be like, wait, I can kind of walk a little bit. And I said, I can kind of see myself doing this. And it took maybe three weeks, but I could do it. I could do the whole thing. And I remember everybody in judo class being like, oh, look at this kid. He's so freaking cool or whatever with answer and me and that other guy who were the only guys who could do it.

• 1:01:40Speaker 02

  And then eventually when I got into high school, I walked across the football field on my hands and I was like, I won fifty bucks by the way. And yeah, my friend was super impressed, but.

• 1:01:49Speaker 01

  I literally just did a minute handstand at the muster this past weekend because all the kids were like.

• 1:01:55Speaker 01

  I can do handstands. I'm like, oh, really? And they were like, and I was like, well, I can do handstands too. And they were like, no way. And I'm like, I can do one for a minute. And they're like, are you serious? I'm like, put the clock on. And I did it. They were like, whoa, they were so impressed.

• 1:02:10Speaker 02

  That's it, you can still do it.

• 1:02:11Speaker 01

  I don't practice that often either. Like, I think that, like, handstands in gymnastics, like, a lot of great wrestlers and jiu-jitsu players are, are, like, have those roots of gymnastics tumbling, just tumbling in general, too. Like, when we went out to Philly for a wrestling camp that me and my younger sister went to this past summer, bro, all the guys were doing backflips. All the wrestlers were doing backflips. And this, this camp was a really good wrestlers. And they were doing backflips. They were doing them, they were doing front handsprings off of each other. And it's just so athletic, like that athleticism.

• 1:02:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:48Jocko Willink?

  Even like, like, uh, the 10th Planet guys like Gio and, and Boogie, like, they came from breakdancing. And, and so they kind of bring that thing in there. A couple of things about cheer that I think is, again, these are like lessons learned for me, but at this point, you know, now I had, I had learned a little bit more and I understood a little bit better. You know, I had made these mistakes with you guys, like forcing you to do jiu-jitsu and stuff like that. And so when you wanted to do cheer, of course, I would, I was wrong because I just thought, in my mind, I just had like the stereotypical cheerleader in my brain of like, oh, what do they do? Like, sit there and go rah rah, football player? And they wear a bunch of makeup and they have like big hair and they're.

• 1:03:31Speaker 01

  We did wear makeup and have big hair.

• 1:03:33Jocko Willink?

  You did wear makeup and you work for crazy amount of makeup and crazy amount of hair, but I didn't, but, but the athletic side, I didn't really understand. And, um, actually I, I worked with a woman who I told her, I was like, yeah, man, my, my, and this woman's awesome, like a badass, uh, CEO of a company. And I was like, yeah, you know, my daughter's gonna do cheerleading. And she's like, I did cheer. It's the best thing for me. And I was like, oh, really? I said, why? And she said, well, you gotta stand up there. You gotta do all this athletic stuff. And, and she was talking about high school cheer. She says, you know, you gotta get up in front of a bunch of people and you gotta yell. And that takes a lot of confidence. So it helped out her confidence.

• 1:04:12Jocko Willink?

  So there was, I kinda saw the negative, but at least at this point, I was smart enough to be, okay, kinda what I said earlier, like if your kid's gonna go through phases, I thought, you know what, just gonna do some cheerleading. Okay. And actually, our neighbor, Dieter, cuz his daughter, this was high school cheer. And both of you did high school cheer. And he's, he and I were talking shit to each other. And I was driving down the alley. And I start, stopped to talk to him and he's like, so you're letting your daughter do cheer huh? Cuz he thought, you know, like how's Jocko, you know, big tough Jocko is gonna let his daughter do cheer.

• 1:04:53Jocko Willink?

  And I was like, and he knew because his daughter did cheer. And I, he said, so you're gonna let your daughter do cheer huh? Very accusatory.

• 1:05:03Jocko Willink?

  And I said something like, dude, I figure I let her do cheer right now. Otherwise, you're gonna end up with a freaking, a meth head. You know what I mean? Like when you try and control people.

• 1:05:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, she's gonna rebel.

• 1:05:14Jocko Willink?

  So, uh.

• 1:05:16Speaker 01

  I also wrestled at the same time anyway.

• 1:05:18Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. The other thing is, I think, yeah, that's true. Once you were wrestling. You get a lot of.

• 1:05:24Speaker 01

  I got a little grace.

• 1:05:27Jocko Willink?

  I remember also, and this is just thinking, speaking again about like your natural abilities, which I don't, I don't know why you didn't, I'm sure there's like a specific type of body type that is good for girls gymnastics. But like, you, you did, uh, you did, like, I, I had Sage train you guys, Sage Bergner, and she's like a national level wrestler, or sorry, a national level weightlifter. Her dad is badass like Olympic lifting coach. And she was working with you for the summer. And one day she just said, if I could design a human for Olympic weightlifting, it would be Rana.

• 1:06:11Jocko Willink?

  And I was like, okay. So I thought that was pretty cool.

• 1:06:17Speaker 01

  I think there is a specific build for gymnastics. Plus I just.

• 1:06:23Speaker 01

  It just wasn't like I just didn't connect with me. I I don't know.

• 1:06:27Jocko Willink?

  I yeah, I think it was. Honestly, now that I've discussed it with you, I think you were bored. I think you wanted more like like more activity and more like hey.

• 1:06:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. Cause I did. I did like that aspect of cheer.

• 1:06:42Jocko Willink?

  When I'd have to pick you up from practices, you know, you're like.

• 1:06:45Speaker 01

  Bro, you don't break a sweat, honestly.

• 1:06:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I know. And I'm sure I bet there's people listening right now that are like, she went to the wrong gymnastics place. Cause I I guarantee there's places that are psyched.

• 1:06:54Speaker 01

  And it was a beginner gymnastics place. I'm not like, it just wasn't for me. Like we had good coaches, good people. But I just like I wouldn't. It was not like a good form of exercise for me either, in my opinion. But when I got to cheer, bro, I was sweating like crazy, like sweat like ne- never before, like really, really working my butt off. Like it was crazy.

• 1:07:17Jocko Willink?

  So you you get into freshman year in high school. I think I just I think I just straight up said, I will pay you money if you wrestle.

• 1:07:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, well, my older sister tried to wrestle and I I knew you were gonna like pay me to wrestle in the first place. You weren't like, I was like, all right.

• 1:07:37Speaker 01

  I'll get paid to do it.

• 1:07:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, unfortunately for your older sister, there was she was the only girl on the team. And she was just after like a few weeks, she was like, Dad, I'm literally just getting like my face pounded into the mat. And it just sucks.

• 1:07:52Speaker 01

  And sweaty and nasty.

• 1:07:53Jocko Willink?

  And sweaty and nasty. And there's these freaking seventeen year old dudes in there and she's the only girl.

• 1:07:59Speaker 01

  And that goes back to like not having a partner.

• 1:08:01Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:01Speaker 01

  That you like that seriously can make it, break it.

• 1:08:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:04Speaker 01

  Like I like my dad told my brother, you're going to go to to Rana's wrestling practices. And when he wasn't in high school yet.

• 1:08:13Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:13Speaker 01

  So I'm two years older than him and he's like, you're gonna go so ran up because I was the only girl also. So he was like, you're gonna go and just be your partner. And that was like seriously amazing. I would have made friends eventually because I don't think that I would have would have not done it. But you never know. But um, yeah, having my brother there was like awesome because I didn't have to look around. No one wants to pair with the one girl because that's. You know, we're in high school, you know?

• 1:08:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's true.

• 1:08:45Jocko Willink?

  And luckily, he was probably like, I guess if you were thirteen, he was like eleven or something like that. But he, but you guys were about the same size. You guys were similar enough in size.

• 1:08:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, we were. We were like exactly the same size and all and we we were just like little meatballs, like dragging our feet when we'd have to do runs for wrestling. Like, we were always the last two to finish, just like the eleven year old and the one girl, you know, holding it down. But it was fun. I didn't mind.

• 1:09:18Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:19Speaker 01

  And people were like supportive. They, they were like cheering.

• 1:09:22Jocko Willink?

  Um, you're fir- the first, I think it was the first match that you ever did in wrestling, like a girl, like you almost got in a fight. A girl swung at you, like a hostile girl just reekin', tried to fight you.

• 1:09:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:35Jocko Willink?

  So that was a wake up call?

• 1:09:36Speaker 01

  She got a, she got a warning and then I lost. But it was fun.

• 1:09:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:43Speaker 02

  Wait, why'd she swing at you then?

• 1:09:44Speaker 01

  She swung at me. I don't know. She just, she just did. We were both freshmen. First tournament, small tournament.

• 1:09:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:53Speaker 01

  You know, clubbing, clubbing the heads thing. I think she just like was getting pressed and swung. But my mom, I looked over at her in the crowd, she was like

• 1:10:03Jocko Willink?

  Your mom couldn't even watch you wrestle?

• 1:10:05Speaker 01

  No, she, she was like

• 1:10:06Jocko Willink?

  She would like leave.

• 1:10:07Speaker 01

  And even, it's funny, cause even now when I compete, my brother cannot, he doesn't even like to watch the streaming of me. He said I was nervous. He was like, I'm nervous.

• 1:10:18Jocko Willink?

  Oh, he's more nervous.

• 1:10:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's more nervous, which I don't know, but I'm like, that's crazy. You can't even, you're not even gonna watch.

• 1:10:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:10:25Speaker 01

  It's fine.

• 1:10:25Speaker 02

  That's actually really good. That means like, obviously, you know, really simply put, that means he cares, you know, like cares like a lot or whatever.

• 1:10:33Speaker 01

  Well, I had tournaments or I have like, I had a super fight a couple, like a couple of weekends ago. And it was in San Diego and he didn't go.

• 1:10:42Speaker 02

  Oh, cause he was nervous or whatever?

• 1:10:44Speaker 01

  Probably.

• 1:10:44Speaker 02

  Yeah. It was funny. I was talking to your mom that, that day, cause I was there. And I was like, yeah, how do you feel about this? Cause usually I, it's very common for the parents or the coach to be more nervous than the competitor. That's pretty a common thing, you know? So I asked your mom, I was like, how do you feel, you know, when you see your, you know, your kids compete or whatever? She's like, I just hope they're not too stressed and you know, really has this real sensitive, really caring uh Perspective, you know, and the whole thing is very interesting.

• 1:11:11Jocko Willink?

  This is also where, did you cut, you, you did your first weight cut your freshman year?

• 1:11:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:19Jocko Willink?

  And I remember because we weighed you at the house. And you were over in the morning and we had to come down to Victory, turn on the sauna at five in the morning and put you on the treadmill and put you in the sauna to cut weight.

• 1:11:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:34Jocko Willink?

  And that was, I think that was the same tournament where like this girl was trying to make weight and she freaking cut all of her hair off, like got off the scale, was still over.

• 1:11:44Speaker 01

  Right next to me. And it was like a high school freshman, freshman. And, and I mean, it's been a couple of, of years, obviously, but there weren't too many girls.

• 1:11:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:55Speaker 01

  At the tournament, I'm like, dude, she throws it away in the trash can, makes weight.

• 1:12:00Jocko Willink?

  That's kind of quite hard.

• 1:12:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. I was like, alright.

• 1:12:05Jocko Willink?

  You ended up getting hurt your second tournament, which was a bummer. And it was like a pretty bad shoulder injury. And, uh, and that was it for your season? That was it for your freshman season?

• 1:12:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:19Jocko Willink?

  You kept going.

• 1:12:20Speaker 01

  I did go to practice though, yeah.

• 1:12:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you kept going to practices. And you kept trying to learn, but you, but the weird thing is you weren't, you were basically had like three moves, you know, like I'm gonna double leg you, I'm gonna whatever.

• 1:12:36Speaker 01

  I hardly even double legged, I was just like, I'm gonna fireman, ankle pick. But even freshman, I think freshman to sophomore year, I had no moves, I'm not even kidding, I just was like, alright, let's go, but.

• 1:12:51Jocko Willink?

  You would win based on your, just like jujitsu that you had in an ancient memory in your brain? And you were just stronger than the other people. You would just be able to like, like I'd watch girls grab you and you could see the, you'd see the look on their face like, oh no. Like, oh, this is gonna be a little bit more difficult than I thought.

• 1:13:16Jocko Willink?

  Did you do, did you do cross country your freshman year too?

• 1:13:19Speaker 01

  I did it my sophomore year.

• 1:13:21Jocko Willink?

  Alright, so let's go to your sophomore year. Your sophomore year.

• 1:13:23Speaker 01

  So freshman year, so you do two sports. So freshman year, I did cheerleading and high school cheerleading and wrestling. And I did competitive cheerleading too. Um, but my second year, I didn't want to do high school cheerleading anymore. So you had to pick a second sport. I picked cross country for some random reason. Because I was like, I'll get my running better. And it was like a gut check.

• 1:13:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I remember um, a lot of complaining and my, my wife, who's a saint by the way. I don't know what the statutes of limitations are on this. But I do not know that my wife would like pick, ran up somewhere on the conditioning run and like drop her off.

• 1:14:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. Once we got caught, oh, we all got in trouble so badly.

• 1:14:14Jocko Willink?

  What, what, what, you got caught?

• 1:14:16Speaker 01

  So, so yeah, because our, our like, uh, the guy, what is it?

• 1:14:22Jocko Willink?

  Coach.

• 1:14:23Speaker 01

  Our coach, he would ride along on a bike, on a bike. And like me and my group of friends that were in that together, we would just like fall so far behind. Because we were gossiping, we were not running, we were just like, like I had the idea that I was gonna work on my running and then I just simply like, it's like, this is bull. But I actually do remember something interesting that just popped into my head. All the cross country girls wore Nike Pros, their shorts. And when I ran my chafe, like, I would literally bleed like my chafe on my inner thighs. And I asked the coach and I, I said, can I please wear leggings? And he said, no.

• 1:15:05Speaker 01

  To me, because that was our uniform. And I was like, bruh, because when we were, we were running and it was so hot. And we get so sweaty, then it gets sticky. So I was like getting such bad bumps in between my legs. Eventually I just wore leggings because it was like so painful and I was getting really like inflamed. But I was like, bro, because cross country like.

• 1:15:29Speaker 01

  Historically has like very slender runners, right?

• 1:15:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:34Speaker 01

  So I was like, this is not gonna do for me.

• 1:15:37Speaker 01

  I just, I just switched it. I just wore what I want because it was too painful. But yeah, I remember that. But yeah, we got caught um cutting, cutting like I didn't cut the course that of the official mat or the official run. So we'd have like five Ks for time in against other schools and I, my friends were like, we're gonna hide in the bathroom because there was an extra loop. I didn't have it. I genuinely, I was like, I'm not doing that. And then they got like around the same time as me because I did the loop and then they were like, okay, we're gonna catch up with Rihanna. It's like, alright, just Rihanna, you know?

• 1:16:11Jocko Willink?

  Well, I'm glad that you at least had the morals to not just straight freaking cheat.

• 1:16:15Speaker 01

  Well, they got caught too. Yeah.

• 1:16:17Jocko Willink?

  Then I'm double glad.

• 1:16:18Speaker 01

  Me too.

• 1:16:20Jocko Willink?

  And then, then wrestling your sophomore year, uh you still had your brother coming in, but now you also had some friends on the team.

• 1:16:30Jocko Willink?

  And you had another girl on the team that was good and she was strong.

• 1:16:36Speaker 01

  Super.

• 1:16:36Jocko Willink?

  And it kind of, she was, she was heavier than you.

• 1:16:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:40Jocko Willink?

  She was taller than you.

• 1:16:41Speaker 01

  She was a senior when I was a sophomore and she was one of my friend, one of my wrestling friends. Older sister who just went into wrestling that one year of her senior year. And it was so like nice to have a partner. Her name was Olivia. And um my brother was starting to get a growth spurt too, so I couldn't like roll with him anymore. He would just like push me over, bro. But yeah, it was nice to have Olivia and we had a bunch of seniors that year and that year was really hard. We ran a lot. We drilled a lot. And yeah, I honestly don't remember too much about it.

• 1:17:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you were, I don't know what you, I don't know what you like, your record was or whatever. It's probably something like even, you know what I mean? It was probably pretty even like.

• 1:17:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:32Jocko Willink?

  Um, but you know, the thing is you, you weren't too skilled.

• 1:17:37Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:17:38Jocko Willink?

  But you were freaking strong and you were tough and you had a couple of good moves that you would be able to just impose on people. And you know, when I look back now, I, I should have done more, I should have been more proactive in like getting you to wrestling camps where you would learn a lot.

• 1:17:53Speaker 01

  Well, I don't know.

• 1:17:55Jocko Willink?

  True, true, yeah.

• 1:17:56Speaker 01

  Because then I think.

• 1:17:59Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I could have at least, yeah, who knows? Um, yeah, because if I was, if I would have been too fired up.

• 1:18:06Speaker 01

  I think.

• 1:18:06Jocko Willink?

  Like I can ruin anything.

• 1:18:07Speaker 01

  Because wrestling, this is the thing, wrestling, my dad, my dad didn't not wrestle in high school. They don't think they had wrestling.

• 1:18:15Jocko Willink?

  Didn't have wrestling, no.

• 1:18:16Speaker 01

  And it was sort of, because when I did jujitsu, I did, I, I think, like, I did like it. When he, when I actually had to fight someone, like, I would be like, oh no, but then I, I wanted to fight someone, like, I liked it. And I think the same was true in wrestling, but it was my, it was like, even though they're very similar. I, I in my mind was like, they are so different and this is mine and that's his thing, jujitsu is his thing. Because remember I would tell you like wrestling's way better. I would say wrestling's way better. I'd be like, I don't like jujitsu, you gotta like do all this stuff on the ground, you have to like, it's just a pin for wrestling. It's just that's, you just have one objective, there's not all these submissions you could do.

• 1:19:02Speaker 01

  And in my mind, I was like, okay, this is my thing. My dad would come into the wrestling room like what, like once or twice. It was just like me and my brother, like my, my wrestling friends and it was fun.

• 1:19:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:15Speaker 01

  And like my dad never was like, you need to go to this camp. It was sort of just like. I'm going to practices. You didn't tell me to go to practices with my shoulder hurt. I was just went.

• 1:19:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I definitely had recognized the error of my ways and like I said, like I it kind of might have gotten missed in the conversation, but I looked at you, Echo, and I was like, I can ruin anything. Yeah. And like, oh yeah, I can straight up, I can make anything suck. Yeah. Like I can make the funnest thing into like a stupid competition where all of a sudden everyone's freaking stressed out for no reason. Yeah. Forever.

• 1:19:47Speaker 01

  No, but that's, that, that in my opinion is fun. Like who? What if the kids like just play diving, you're a good job. They would have been done in one second.

• 1:19:57Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:19:57Speaker 01

  It was, I honestly thought it was fun. Sometimes it was a little crazy, but like all the games and stuff, I had a good time.

• 1:20:05Jocko Willink?

  Let me put it this way, I'll joke about this with your little sister and let's say she's like, um, let's say if she said, oh, I, you know, I, I want to play guitar. I'd be, I'll, I'll joke, this will be my joke with her. I'll be like, okay, let's go down to Guitar Center right now. I'm gonna get you some lessons. I'll get you signed up. I'll get you an amp. You need to get a Gibson SG, which is a very good guitar. And she's just laughs. Yeah. But that's how I can ruin things. Oh, I understand. I can just go.

• 1:20:32Speaker 01

  Because it's a joke now, but.

• 1:20:33Jocko Willink?

  It's a joke now, but back in the day, it would, could have been more serious and, and may have been more serious. That's why I was probably like, dude, so stoked that she's wrestling, so stoked that she's like wrestling is better. I'm like, cool. In my mind, I'm like, bro.

• 1:20:46Speaker 01

  You're not gonna be like, you should do the summer thing because there's no way, I think in my, in my mind, that would have blown up.

• 1:20:53Jocko Willink?

  Maybe.

• 1:20:53Speaker 01

  You know?

• 1:20:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:54Speaker 01

  I don't know, maybe.

• 1:20:55Jocko Willink?

  Well, then by your junior year, you were more fired up for wrestling.

• 1:20:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:58Jocko Willink?

  And you actually did train all summer long.

• 1:21:00Speaker 01

  No, I only trained, so I only trained my junior year summer going into my senior year because I really wanted to make it to state. I was like, um, my coach, Coach Spencer, he, we worked out at Victory every morning and then we'd go to Taylor Johnson's wrestling class during the summer. And then when school started, we, the wrestling squad, because, because wrestling was the second season of high school sports. So we had like those first couple of months, um. And then we, me like, and my brother and our other wrestling friends would come in to just victory and Taylor would teach later in the day and it was really fun. But that was the only time I did off season.

• 1:21:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:45Speaker 01

  On my own volition.

• 1:21:46Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:21:47Speaker 01

  And it was fun. And then senior year was, was like crazy.

• 1:21:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah. And you, and your goal was to make it to state and you, you did make it to state.

• 1:21:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:59Jocko Willink?

  And um, that was freaking, that was epic. But the other thing that, that I think you started doing your senior year was like

• 1:22:09Jocko Willink?

  cutting weight.

• 1:22:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Well, I started a couple of years before, but my senior year, I really was like legit cray cray about it a little bit.

• 1:22:22Jocko Willink?

  You were like focused on weight, not just in wrestling too, just like in life, like you just wanted to be, you didn't want to be heavy.

• 1:22:30Speaker 01

  I did not. No, I didn't. But um, that's why it's so hard for me to recall, even my senior year, there were so many good moments, like making it to state, but at state, I like, I weighed in at like six pounds less than I could have and my coach said, you have five pounds you need to eat, but I would, like, I wouldn't because I like just didn't want to. I wanted to like lose weight and I feel like, like I was literally at state and I was like worried about gaining weight.

• 1:23:06Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm. Even though you had six pounds.

• 1:23:09Speaker 01

  Even though I had six pounds.

• 1:23:10Jocko Willink?

  Allowance and you're at state and you were like, no, I don't want to gain any weight. Uh, getting to state was probably like one of my best memories was you, so you were at, you were in, in, it's, it, CIF and Masters, it's basically the regional tournament to get to state.

• 1:23:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:28Jocko Willink?

  And so you had, the first day you lost one and

• 1:23:33Speaker 01

  My first match?

• 1:23:34Jocko Willink?

  Was it your first match? No, I'm saying the first day.

• 1:23:36Speaker 01

  The first day, I think, yeah, I think it was my second match I lost.

• 1:23:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:41Jocko Willink?

  Either that it was later in the day, but anyways,

• 1:23:44Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 1:23:44Jocko Willink?

  You lost a match your first day and what that meant was Echo Charles. The next day she had to win five straight matches. Each match getting harder and harder and harder as you're going smaller and smaller into the bracket. And so she loses one match that first day. And I remember we, and she had, she could have done the weight class below, but she qualified at whatever it was, one thirty.

• 1:24:13Speaker 01

  I qualified at one forty-three. So, so, but at that tournament, I was like one forty, I was probably below.

• 1:24:22Jocko Willink?

  Like one thirty-six or something. So she could have made the next weight down, but she already qualified. So she loses that first day and I'm like, you know, and I'm in my mind, dude, I'm like, well, it's so bad that she didn't make it to state because how it's gonna be hard to win five matches straight the next day. But I was like, I offered up some comfort food. And I was like, yo, you want some Pizza Hut? And she's like, yeah. And I'm like, what do you want? She's like, whatever. And I just like ordered everything. I ordered pizzas and pastas and the whole nine yards and she just kicked it and, and you know, chowed down. And then the next day, uh, she had these five matches. And what was, I don't know what happened and I don't know if it happened after the first match.

• 1:25:06Jocko Willink?

  But you could see that little girl that carried the rock across the river. Like that little girl arrived. And each match you could see her, it was also, you'd work with, you know, Taylor, you'd work with Spencer, your coach. So you had more skills now.

• 1:25:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:26Jocko Willink?

  And you were starting to apply them for real. And not just imposing them because you're stronger, but doing them correctly and setting things up and stuff like this. And so each match you got, you, it was watching you get better and more determined. And each one you won, you were like getting more and more confident and more and more just, I got this. And we're out in Brawley.

• 1:25:49Speaker 01

  Brawley.

• 1:25:50Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Brawley's awesome. It's an awesome, it's in Imperial Valley. It's, it's a, they have great athletic program, but it's also, it's in the middle of the desert. There's nothing out there but farms. And so the kids don't have a lot to do besides like compete and train. And, and they're all into it. And so.

• 1:26:10Jocko Willink?

  They happen to hold this tournament out there in Brawley and in your whatever it was, the second to your last match, you were going against a girl from Brawley. The stands are filled with people from Brawley and the Brawley people, man, Brawley people are fired up, man. They're there to win. And so the crowds going crazy and you had a crazy match with this awesome girl from Brawley. And you threw down and you beat her nine eight.

• 1:26:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:26:39Jocko Willink?

  Nine.

• 1:26:39Speaker 01

  I got called for stalling.

• 1:26:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:42Speaker 01

  I was, I was up nine, seven and like.

• 1:26:44Jocko Willink?

  Nine, seven, just, it was crazy and the crowd was going totally insane because think of how, when you, when you're down by one point, how crazy is the crowd, the crowd's going totally nuts and she's stalling.

• 1:26:57Speaker 01

  Also, they had a full women's team stat, like they had like a team A, team B.

• 1:27:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:03Speaker 01

  And I think there was only, well, I was the only one like left in from my school, but there was only like four of us that went to CIF and all the girls, like all the Brawley girls were like sitting in front.

• 1:27:16Jocko Willink?

  Bro, and the Brawley girls, like they all have a Letterman's jacket that has like the number of pins they got on it, what their weight classes, like it's, yeah, there, it's an intimidating crew. They're going hard. Props to Brawley. So she won that match, which was awesome. And then, and then you had in your, in the match for third place, which meant you get to go to state. She had a girl that, that you had beat before a couple of times. And that girl told me afterwards, I think she said something like that she was just scared to wrestle you because you were so strong. I was like, yes. Uh, but you won that and then you ended up going to state.

• 1:27:57Jocko Willink?

  Though probably the, one of the worst things in my whole life is when you went to state, I had a speaking event. And so I went to like, I watched your first match.

• 1:28:08Speaker 01

  Which I got annihilated because the girl was third, like third in the state or something.

• 1:28:15Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:28:16Speaker 01

  Which is fine.

• 1:28:17Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:28:18Speaker 01

  I just was happy to be there, but then, so if you win one the first day, it just depends on your bracket. Um, well, I lost, I lost the first day, but then I was on to day two because our, something with the bracket, I just was, I just was there.

• 1:28:33Jocko Willink?

  Well, it's.

• 1:28:34Speaker 01

  Wait, did I win this? No, I didn't. I won my second day.

• 1:28:37Jocko Willink?

  Second day.

• 1:28:39Jocko Willink?

  So I flew, I had to leave. And if you ever get a chance to go to state championships in California, go watch it because it's, they say it's the biggest wrestling tournament in the world because there's only one. There's in different states, they have like different sized schools. So it's like, oh, this is a triple A school, double A school. And so there can be a bunch of different champions at one thirty-four. In California, there's one. So they say it's the biggest wrestling tournament in the world because it's thirty-six million people. How many kids there are, but it's, it's all these kids. And they go from all these kids all over the state of California down to one true champion.

• 1:29:17Speaker 01

  And that was the first year, boys and girls competed at the same tournament. So it was a legit, it was in Bakersfield, but it was at this like big arena. It was really cool. Yeah, but then I won one the next day and lost one the next day.

• 1:29:32Jocko Willink?

  And I wasn't there when you won.

• 1:29:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, I won, that was pretty cool.

• 1:29:35Jocko Willink?

  So bummed out.

• 1:29:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:37Jocko Willink?

  But you were the fir-, I think you were the first person to make it to state from Point Loma High School in wrestling in like thirty-five years or something crazy like that.

• 1:29:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's true.

• 1:29:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, so, so, so that was kind of epic.

• 1:29:51Jocko Willink?

  The goal was accomplished.

• 1:29:55Jocko Willink?

  You get done with that. What, what year did you graduate high school?

• 1:29:59Speaker 01

  Twenty nineteen.

• 1:30:00Jocko Willink?

  Twenty nineteen, so twenty nineteen. Now you go to college. And you go to Cal Poly.

• 1:30:06Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:30:09Speaker 01

  Uh, after I wrestled, I was like, I'm done with this wrest-, like, I'm done with grappling. Just in general.

• 1:30:16Jocko Willink?

  You thought it was over.

• 1:30:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I just was like, it's too much. The way, the weigh-in part was like really eating out my mind and I just said, okay, I'm done with this.

• 1:30:27Jocko Willink?

  Oh, so then you weren't worried about, uh, weight anymore?

• 1:30:30Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:30:32Speaker 01

  No, I was.

• 1:30:34Jocko Willink?

  So what, so what was your attitude when you got to college? What were you doing? What were you into? What was happening?

• 1:30:38Speaker 01

  So when I went to college, I was like. It's just me, just, just me, no, like, not my family was there. And um, it was rough. My first year was rough, but we got covid.

• 1:30:55Jocko Willink?

  Wait, what was rough your first year?

• 1:30:57Speaker 01

  So, basically, I just, I, I had a couple of friends and they're, they're really awesome friends, but I, I didn't room with them. I like, I isolated myself a lot in my first year. And I was very, very meticulous about everything that I ate and the way that I looked. So, basically, it's, it sort of started this like inkling. Started my like, when I was like, in seventh or eighth grade, is when I downloaded a calorie counting app with my, one of my best friends at the time. And like, when we, when I was in high school, I was like,

• 1:31:40Speaker 01

  it was sort of nice because I could just put it off on wrestling that I was cutting weight or whatever. And I guess you could say I'm dense, so people, people would tell me like, when I was not eating or eating very little, they would say that I looked good and things like that. And, and I'm not putting it on anyone. It was same thing as when you, you would tell me things, it was like, I took them a certain way. So I took it as like, you like me better this way. And like, I just keep going. So, basically, college was like an environment where it was just me. And like, I could just, I had full reign, like, it was, if there was no one looking over me, it was just like,

• 1:32:23Speaker 01

  I'm gonna do everything that I want to do. I'm gonna weigh everything that I eat. I'm gonna like, like, not go places. I'm gonna isolate myself.

• 1:32:32Jocko Willink?

  When you say you had full reign, what you mean is you, you actually mean you had full control over everything that you wanted to do? Well, you know, because you said you had free reign, which indicates like you kind of just went wild, but it's the actually the opposite. You had, you were now in full control. You could only buy the foods that you thought you should eat.

• 1:32:52Speaker 01

  Reign of doing some, doing what I wanted to do.

• 1:32:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:56Speaker 01

  Which was the strictness.

• 1:32:58Jocko Willink?

  Full control.

• 1:32:59Speaker 01

  I was like, this is awesome. I don't have to hide anything from anyone. I'm just gonna weigh all my food, take pictures of what I look like every single day. And like, that's that. Exercise a little bit too much. And that's that, you know?

• 1:33:13Jocko Willink?

  How much is too much?

• 1:33:14Speaker 01

  Um, I know, I was thinking about this when I, when I was driving over here because like, obviously exercising every day is like awesome and I do it to this day. But it was just like, it wasn't even like I was exercising too much. It was like for all the wrong reasons. It was more like a little different perspective of, because I was doing fine and normal things. I was lifting stuff that I do now. That what, that if, if someone was doing this today, it wouldn't be like, oh, they're going crazy. But it was just like,

• 1:33:48Speaker 01

  um, yeah, that's just how it was.

• 1:33:50Jocko Willink?

  So the, the, when you say the re, the wrong lifting for the, working out for the wrong reasons.

• 1:33:55Speaker 01

  Just.

• 1:33:56Jocko Willink?

  You weren't working out to be healthy.

• 1:33:58Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:33:58Jocko Willink?

  You weren't work, working out because you were training for some kind of competition. You were just working out basically to burn calories.

• 1:34:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. So basically that, the like app that I had, um, it gives you a certain amount of calories and I'm short. And all the only three things it asks for, your age, your height and your weight. So like, it doesn't ask anything else. And so

• 1:34:23Jocko Willink?

  That's so psycho.

• 1:34:24Speaker 01

  It gives you, it gives you like a amount of calories, which I think mine was like a thousand.

• 1:34:29Jocko Willink?

  Your goal too?

• 1:34:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, it asks you your goal. And it can say like you, like however much you want to lose, whatever. So then my goal was like a thousand calories a day, right? Because that's what it tell, that's what it told me to do. It told me to, this was, okay, this is a backtrack. This was in eighth grade when I put this information in and I'm a child, first of all. And I'm dense, so I weigh, I weigh more, but I didn't, I don't think I looked too like, I don't think I looked unhealthy when I was a child. Um, and.

• 1:35:05Speaker 01

  That was so that was in eighth grade. It was like a thousand calories. Everything that you did exercise wise, you put it, you logged it in and it gave you more you could eat. Essentially, so, so basically like

• 1:35:17Jocko Willink?

  Dude, a thousand calories a day is freaking starvation.

• 1:35:20Speaker 01

  Starvation diet.

• 1:35:21Jocko Willink?

  Starvation diet. This is like, and by the way, people talk about like, oh, should your kids have phones and they're thinking about Snapchat and Twitter and all this stuff? Here I am, like, I had no idea. I didn't know that you had this app until you told me the other day.

• 1:35:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:36Jocko Willink?

  Like, I

• 1:35:38Speaker 01

  And that was in seventh grade.

• 1:35:39Jocko Willink?

  And even if I would have seen it, even if I would have seen it, I probably would have just been like, oh, well, she's, you know, whatever. I, I, oh, she's being healthy.

• 1:35:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:46Jocko Willink?

  I probably thought, yeah, yeah.

• 1:35:48Speaker 01

  That's good. But that was in seventh grade and now I'm what, twenty, I'm twenty three now. So.

• 1:35:55Jocko Willink?

  But in college, you were what?

• 1:35:56Speaker 01

  I was still using that in college. So in college, I went to college when I was eighteen. So. Um, I started using it when I was fourteen years old. So. And but I wasn't too rigid when I, when I like going through high school, like there were times where I'd be super on it and then, you know, you have family dinners and things like that and whatever. But in college, that's the thing. Everything is controllable, like everything. You can say no, no one, no one is living with you to be like, you good? You should go to the dinner or whatever. And so I was so stoked because I was like hiding it the whole, like, I was hiding it.

• 1:36:41Speaker 01

  A long time, but I didn't really feel like it was something to hide. It was just like, this is just what I'm doing and I'm losing weight and that's good and that's like

• 1:36:50Jocko Willink?

  In your mind, it's healthy.

• 1:36:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. So I didn't, it wasn't like I was hiding this huge secret that I, that to my, like from my parents and stuff. But I just simply like didn't, I just kept it to myself. This is what I should be doing. And then, yeah.

• 1:37:07Jocko Willink?

  And then, and then COVID came. Is that, did, did COVID come your freshman year of college?

• 1:37:11Speaker 01

  So that was my freshman year of college and.

• 1:37:18Jocko Willink?

  Now it's like beyond full control.

• 1:37:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:21Jocko Willink?

  Cause now you're just can't even go anywhere.

• 1:37:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:23Jocko Willink?

  And it's like, I got total control over everything in the world.

• 1:37:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:27Jocko Willink?

  Did you have to go to classes or to classes?

• 1:37:28Speaker 01

  Coming home for me was really hard to do because of that. Because of the, everything that I bought. Like everything that I wanted to consume, I bought, everything was under my control. So going home for me was really like hard to do. Because everyone's eating dinner, no, no one's weighing anything. No one's like, my mom isn't measuring out the tablespoons in her butter that she's putting in the pasta. So like, that was, I did not like to come home that often. I was like, I was like, oh, this is gonna be so hard, like driving home. And then when I come back, I'd be like, time to get back on track, like, you know, that cycle of it. So.

• 1:38:11Jocko Willink?

  So you're home in quarantine. And actually, we were living in like a smaller house at the time.

• 1:38:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:18Jocko Willink?

  So you and both your sisters were in one room.

• 1:38:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:22Jocko Willink?

  And then we eventually kicked your sister out into the living room. But uh. It was kinda good because you got to hang out with your sister kinda close for a while.

• 1:38:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, me and my older sister didn't really talk. In high school, we like ran in different groups and like just liked different things. And we'd never really talked to, I, I don't even really remember talking to her like at all, honestly. And then, and then during COVID, we, we slept on a bunk bed together. And like got super close immediately. Just became like came back as like two different like people. From who we were in high school and it was like so much fun. We were, we would like COVID made us so, so close. Which is fun.

• 1:39:07Jocko Willink?

  This reminds me of, um, so I had this rule, echo Charles.

• 1:39:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:11Jocko Willink?

  Another good thing for parenting. I had a rule in my own head for when my kids were little. And that is like, I will never. Tell them to like be quiet, if they wanna play guitar, play guitar. They wanna play piano, play piano. They wanna sing, sing. They wanna dance, dance. Like I was never gonna be, I was never gonna stifle any creativity. And I kept that rule and I never stifled creativity. And certainly would never disrespect my kids by telling them to shut up, right? Like I never told my kids to shut up.

• 1:39:49Jocko Willink?

  In fact, I, in the past 20 years, I've only told someone to shut up, I think, four times. And it was the same person.

• 1:40:02Jocko Willink?

  And that person was Rana.

• 1:40:06Jocko Willink?

  And it was all during COVID. And each time I did it, she smiled and nodded and said, okay. So we're in this little house during COVID. And my two daughters, who both have really good singing voices, they were both like the lead in the school play, the musicals and all this stuff. They both have really good voices. They would freaking sing as loud as they could. The dumbest things over and over again for hours. For hours.

• 1:40:38Jocko Willink?

  And Rana has an especially powerful voice. Do you know who Adele is?

• 1:40:42Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:40:43Jocko Willink?

  Like she can sing Adele songs.

• 1:40:44Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:40:45Jocko Willink?

  And like good, louder than Adele.

• 1:40:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:40:48Jocko Willink?

  Adele has to use a microphone.

• 1:40:52Jocko Willink?

  So there was a few times during COVID where these two girls would be like scream. Don't you have a name for scream singing or something?

• 1:40:58Speaker 01

  Belting.

• 1:40:59Jocko Willink?

  They would be belting as loud as they could. And I'd be in my room and just come out and be like, Rana, shut up.

• 1:41:10Speaker 02

  So she kind of had it coming to her.

• 1:41:12Jocko Willink?

  No, no, and each time she, each time she like, she totally knew like.

• 1:41:15Speaker 01

  I like forget, like when my dad's on calls, I'll yell. My mom's like, bro, he's on a call.

• 1:41:22Jocko Willink?

  And this is something else I talk about. So there's different leadership skills that a person can have and some of them are genetic. And like, like if you're going to be, if you play basketball, it's genetically good to be taller, obviously. Well, if you're a leader.

• 1:41:37Jocko Willink?

  It's good to have a loud voice and having a loud voice is genetic. And the reason I know it's genetic is because I have a loud voice and all my kids have a loud voice. And so like, there's a lot of noise that can come from my kids. So it was cool that you got to hang out with your sister. It was a little hard on my ears. But um, that was good.

• 1:42:04Speaker 02

  Live by the sword, die by the sword.

• 1:42:09Jocko Willink?

  So the freshman year, the COVID thing, the quote unquote quarantine, because that the Willink House wasn't so much of that.

• 1:42:22Speaker 02

  Varying levels of acceptance about that.

• 1:42:25Jocko Willink?

  We were kind of just getting after it. But then, but then for your sophomore year, so this must be why you went back to slow at the beginning of the year for your sophomore year, because you were like, oh, I don't want to be at home with all this freaking butter, unweighted butter in the pasta.

• 1:42:43Speaker 01

  Well, I think it was, I think, yeah, that definitely played a part. And it also just like being in a room with three of your sisters, like it just was crowded. So I just went back up, not really. Like, looking back, I'm sure that played an impact, but in, everything made sense in my mind. That's what happens. You you make it make sense. You're like doing it for a reason. And you're convinced, especially when you don't tell your parents or don't tell anyone that's close to you. Everything is so like perfect in your mind, like this, this is it. I'm on track. Boom. You're, if, if you have a little thought, like, is this, is this like, should I be doing, like, should I enjoy myself a little bit more? You're just like, no, if I want to see progress and then it all just makes sense in your mind.

• 1:43:24Jocko Willink?

  You know what I think is a really good red flag for life is what you just said about when you're not telling anyone. So when you, if you're doing things that you're not telling people, you hear this with alcoholics, right? Like the alcoholic is drinking a bottle of wine at night alone. And they don't tell anyone, but they tell themselves, it's just wine. Actually, there's, there's Rizver traline wine. It's kind of good for you. And plus it helps me sleep like that. They're just making those things up. So if there's things in your life, and I've had friends that are, that have had bad issues.

• 1:43:59Jocko Willink?

  And they don't say anything about it. And I'm like, bro, that was going on. You didn't like, tell me what was happening. So I think that's a really good red flag for everybody. Remember, if there's things going on in your life that you're not telling anyone and and yet you've convinced yourself that it's okay, but you know, deep inside, you know, you couldn't convince anyone else of that. And everyone else be like, bro, what are you doing? So that's a very good red flag of of checking yourself, because we can all say, you know what, I just, I just uh like having a drink on the weekends. What's the big deal? And it's just a few beers and my wife's already asleep. So who care? You see what I'm saying? You're just lying to yourself. But and you can get away with

• 1:44:42Jocko Willink?

  that. But you know, if you told some other people, they'd be like, hold on.

• 1:44:47Speaker 01

  And even if you even if you have the idea, you're like, well, why am I even telling someone it's not that big of a deal either?

• 1:44:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, because exactly. It's what's what's what's what's three beers a night or six beers.

• 1:44:58Speaker 01

  I mean, occasional shot. You don't want to be that dramatic person that because in your mind, you convince is not a big deal. You're like, ah, I don't need to go tell someone because then they're gonna be like, because in your mind, it all makes sense. You think their reaction is gonna be like, okay, well, why are you like telling me this? You know, like, okay, you're like, making sure you eat healthy. That makes sense. Because in my mind, I'm like, I'm just being healthy. I'm just being healthy. So that's, that's good.

• 1:45:23Jocko Willink?

  Will you go ahead?

• 1:45:24Speaker 02

  Would you consider just thinking back, would you because there's certain levels of this thing, right? It's not just like you, you know. So let's say if you're to break it into three levels. One is like, we'll say normal, we'll say run of the mill, just, you know, as far as your regard for we'll call it your relationship with food and and weight and, you know, physique or whatever. And then you have the next level up is what we might call obsession. And then the level three is disorder.

• 1:45:53Speaker 02

  You know, I like people straight up just eating disorders, you know, same thing. Would you say you're in the obsession scenario or not even that or like what would you where?

• 1:46:01Jocko Willink?

  Let us continue the story.

• 1:46:02Speaker 02

  Okay, so it's more.

• 1:46:04Jocko Willink?

  No, I think this is where we're getting into full obsession, brushing up against or entering into. What's the what's the highest level you gave?

• 1:46:12Speaker 02

  Disorder.

• 1:46:13Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and I guess there's gotta be something around beyond disorder, which is like, or there may be something in between.

• 1:46:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm sure I like I feel it feels like it's a whole spectrum. Yeah, that's that's.

• 1:46:24Jocko Willink?

  But when you got back up to slow, were you, were you, could you go to classes? So now this is like 2020, the fall of 2020. Could you go to classes?

• 1:46:33Speaker 01

  No, we had remote, remote classes.

• 1:46:35Jocko Willink?

  So now you're literally in your room.

• 1:46:37Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, I was in my room.

• 1:46:38Jocko Willink?

  And now you have, you had a complete control before, and now you have even more control.

• 1:46:45Speaker 01

  And keep in mind, I I was able to bring a car up. So you have the dining hall of your freshman year. You can go to like the store that they have on campus, but a lot of times, and shout out to Cal Poly, they put their calories on everything too that you eat. So like, it was pretty, it was fairly easy to do. But when I went to the grocery store, like, that was my sophomore year when I had a car and I was no classes by myself. Bro.

• 1:47:16Jocko Willink?

  Just.

• 1:47:17Speaker 01

  It was crazy.

• 1:47:17Jocko Willink?

  Psycho.

• 1:47:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:19Jocko Willink?

  You're a full psycho, so you're you're weighing your food?

• 1:47:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:24Jocko Willink?

  Your.

• 1:47:24Speaker 01

  Vegetables, everything, everything I put into my like mouth, yeah.

• 1:47:28Jocko Willink?

  You had a food scale, like a little miniature food scale?

• 1:47:30Speaker 01

  Because if you, no, I can't, never mind.

• 1:47:35Jocko Willink?

  Go ahead, we're here.

• 1:47:35Speaker 01

  No, no, because I don't want to, because, because if you measure things, it's not that it's not accurate. And if you have a tablespoon, it's not accurate as opposed to a gram. And we would learn that, like, like, I was a nutrition science major, which, because I was like so obsessed with food in high school. I was looking at the options for college and I was like, well, I guess I'm really passionate about. And that's what I would play off as passionate. I just loved like, I loved like food and blah, blah, blah. So I picked nutrition science as my my major, which made it like so much worse and that's.

• 1:48:16Speaker 01

  Which is so good. It's a great major. Like it helps a lot of people. But it is, it is common and I remember learning this in class. It is common for people that struggle with that type of thing to pick that major.

• 1:48:28Jocko Willink?

  Well, it's also

• 1:48:29Speaker 01

  Because they want to go back and help. Like that's, like I just saw a video of a guy who's like, I did dermatology because I had really bad acne as a kid. And so it's sort of that like, that like, you, you have an interest in it, even though, even though I was in the depths of it. I just was like, oh yeah, because I'm so passionate about it. I'm just gonna make this my job. I didn't really care about anything else.

• 1:48:50Jocko Willink?

  So when you said we could cut it out, basically what you're saying we could cut out is because is

• 1:48:55Speaker 01

  I don't wanna get, I don't wanna make people be like, okay, I'm not accurate with my weighing, like with a quarter cup.

• 1:49:00Jocko Willink?

  Well, yeah, so you're saying we'll make people more paranoid than they

• 1:49:04Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, they'll be like, okay, I need to go buy a scale to be, I don't know, just, just

• 1:49:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:07Speaker 01

  Just

• 1:49:08Jocko Willink?

  Just so you know, like, there's very few people, like, there's, most people are like, oh, whatever.

• 1:49:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know. I just, it's just like anything you see online. It's like, it's like people, people, there's like accounts of, of tips for, for how people lost, lost weight. It's like, there's accounts for like, here's, here's how to help you. It's like, only eat this, like, it'll be, it'll be like meal inspirations. It'll be like a plate of cucumber. Like, I'm not even kidding. There's a side of the internet that's like, it's like, they call it like,

• 1:49:42Speaker 01

  I think, I, they just call it like anorexic like inspiration. They call it inspiration.

• 1:49:49Jocko Willink?

  They, they, wait, do they call it anorexic?

• 1:49:51Speaker 01

  They call it like weight loss inspiration, anorexic inspiration, like inspo, like people posting their like, how skinny they are, inspiration. And there's like, I know, it's, that's why I'm like, I don't know, you gotta tread lightly with this type of stuff, but yes, it's not accurate.

• 1:50:07Jocko Willink?

  Well, actually, I think it's, I don't, I don't want you to tread too lightly because there's someone that's listening to this right now. That would be like, oh gosh, I think that way. I think it's actually very healthy that you say this kind of stuff because someone's rationalizing it right now and not being like, wait a second. A tablespoon and now it's worried about, you know, point four of a gram extra sugar.

• 1:50:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:31Jocko Willink?

  That's not very healthy to be obsessed around that.

• 1:50:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and also like going back, like if you're weighing out your baby carrots. Let's like, let's just like, you're eating baby carrots. That's like,

• 1:50:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:50:46Speaker 01

  Good, bro. Like, you're good, you know?

• 1:50:49Jocko Willink?

  I would, I would venture to say you can't eat too many baby carrots, but guess what? You can. And you know why I know that?

• 1:50:55Speaker 01

  Because.

• 1:50:56Jocko Willink?

  Cause I did. So I had, I had like a couple of bags of baby carrots. I was sitting around and there was probably nothing else to eat. And so I was just chowing on these baby carrots. And all this, like, four hours later,

• 1:51:09Jocko Willink?

  my stomach was in knots. And it turns out, you can't digest that many baby carrots.

• 1:51:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a vegetable.

• 1:51:16Jocko Willink?

  So be careful.

• 1:51:17Speaker 02

  Well, I don't think you have to be that careful for that scenario. But um, the, yeah, well, you can eat too much of anything. You can drink too much water.

• 1:51:25Jocko Willink?

  True.

• 1:51:25Speaker 02

  So, okay. And I think that's where you went. That's the zone.

• 1:51:29Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:51:29Speaker 02

  Plus your use, so whatever. But the calories and stuff, you're allowed, I think FDA or whatever, you know, you're allowed 20% leeway of as far as accuracy goes. You know how they give fudge fat, you know, like, or whatever? And I think it's like 20%, which when you think about it, if you're obsessing over anything, especially calories, but macros as well, it's kind of like, bro, 20%, it's kind of a lot.

• 1:51:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. And even like, even things that'll say, well, three pieces of bread is this many calories. Two pieces of bread is this many calories. But when you put it on the scale, it's not the same weight of the serving size that it gives you.

• 1:52:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:02Speaker 01

  So it, like, you, if you really want to be accurate, then you can do so in a way, because people will be like, well, they, they said that 30 grams is the serving size. And that's three pieces of this. But it's actually 32 if you put three pieces on the scale.

• 1:52:21Jocko Willink?

  So this is when you know you have issues. Quite honestly.

• 1:52:24Speaker 01

  Well, no, I was like.

• 1:52:25Jocko Willink?

  Well, you didn't know, but I'm saying to the general populace, if you're like weighing the two pieces of bread, which are supposed to have a weight of 30 grams, and they have a weight of 34 grams, and so you carve off four grams.

• 1:52:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:52:38Jocko Willink?

  Right? This is where you were at?

• 1:52:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, 100%.

• 1:52:41Speaker 02

  Um, yeah, especially if the motivation is just looks like, you know, obviously you have your

• 1:52:46Jocko Willink?

  Well, if you're cutting weight for, yeah.

• 1:52:47Speaker 02

  Exactly right. But it's kind of like, hey, I'm looking in the mirror and giving me these kinds of emotions. Now I'm going to go be all obsession. Then yeah, I feel like that's kind of an incongruent relationship.

• 1:52:57Speaker 01

  It was like looks, but also in my mind, it like scratched an itch. Like when I'd have like certain like, when I knew everything that was like I was eating, it was like so satisfying. I don't know why. And I was in, and I would shave off the bread and be like, yeah, like, okay. It made sense in my mind because I could put the thirty, thirty in there. And it, and you put the amount of grams. So this, this time I had a different app when I got older. And it like was a calorie tracker. And it went back to your phone and you can like see how much exercise.

• 1:53:34Jocko Willink?

  So was it your wrist calorie tracker?

• 1:53:35Speaker 01

  It was a wrist one.

• 1:53:36Speaker 02

  Oh yeah, the wearable.

• 1:53:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And they, and those track.

• 1:53:40Jocko Willink?

  Are those things accurate?

• 1:53:40Speaker 01

  So that's even more, they're not, they, they haven't been proven to be accurate, but I was like, I just took it at face value. Like this is, this is, and that's way more accurate than just being like, I did something for an hour, like.

• 1:53:53Jocko Willink?

  So it actually is more accurate than just guessing?

• 1:53:56Speaker 01

  No, my first app would be like, if you can put in an hour of wrestling. And it would do give a general, but this is like, it has your heart rate.

• 1:54:03Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:54:03Speaker 01

  So I trusted it more, which makes sense, right? Like it's more trustable.

• 1:54:08Jocko Willink?

  You started going to like an underground, uh, speakeasy CrossFit gym at this point.

• 1:54:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. So that it was during COVID when we, when we didn't have classes. And one of my friends started working out at just a warehouse that had like weights and stuff and, and sometimes workout classes as well. And I just started doing that instead because we could, because our rec center was, was closed down. Yeah.

• 1:54:43Jocko Willink?

  You.

• 1:54:46Jocko Willink?

  You were working out. I remember you telling me or you told me the other day that one of your friends was like scared of your workouts because you were going psycho.

• 1:54:56Speaker 01

  Well, so that was freshman year. When I lived in the dorm and I would have to do like certain things. Like I would be really, really tired and I was not like feeling myself well. And I would just be like, I have to hit this, this number. I'm like, sorry, like I'm not gonna leave until I do.

• 1:55:16Jocko Willink?

  Stair stepper or whatever.

• 1:55:18Speaker 01

  On the stair stepper.

• 1:55:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And again, just so like a warning to everyone here. This, I didn't know about any of this. I was just like, oh yeah, of course my daughter works out. She's been working out since she was literally five years old. Of course she's working out. She goes hard. Didn't think twice about it. Never thought twice about it.

• 1:55:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:55:33Jocko Willink?

  Oh, she eats healthy? Yeah. Dude, I mean, I don't know, uh, like, you know, I used to be like that with like, hey, kids, don't eat that. It's freaking garbage. Like eat healthy. Don't, you know, like I would do that. I would say that to you guys. For, so for you to grow up and be like, oh, that's garbage. I don't want to eat that. I want to eat this. I'd be like, oh, cool. And then for you to be like, oh yeah, well, I only eat a certain amount. Because I want to be healthy. I would still, this wouldn't, it would, I would have had to have a lot of voluntary information from you.

• 1:56:04Jocko Willink?

  That you would only have given me. If you wanted to.

• 1:56:09Speaker 01

  And I wasn't going to.

• 1:56:10Jocko Willink?

  And you weren't going to.

• 1:56:11Speaker 01

  And like I told you, it's not, it wasn't even like healthy foods though. It's like, it's one thing. It's, I mean, I did, I did eat healthy foods a lot of the time, but like, for example, this place, this grocery store next to us had this chicken Alfredo. And on the back it said a thousand and 10 calories. And that was cutting my, my limits. That's, that's how much I could have. And so I would wait all day. So that, that like, isn't like, oh, you know that that like, like I love chicken Alfredo. Obviously, but it wasn't like, it wasn't like, I'm eating healthily. It's like, I'm just like, that wasn't, that was like no food. It was like this big.

• 1:56:54Speaker 01

  And I would just save my whole day for that.

• 1:56:57Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:57Speaker 01

  And just be like, okay, I got my calories and.

• 1:57:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, but I wouldn't really think about that. Like I'd see you eating chicken Alfredo and I'd be like, oh, well, you know what I mean? It's just like, oh, I didn't really know that you didn't eat anything else that day. You know what I mean?

• 1:57:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:10Jocko Willink?

  But now that, now that you're, now that you were back up at school though. When did this happen with us? You were you were telling the story about how you took a cooking class?

• 1:57:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:19Jocko Willink?

  So now are you guys back in?

• 1:57:20Speaker 01

  So yeah, that was my sophomore year. So for nutrition science class, we had to take a mandatory three hour cooking class. And each each week you get a separate like a menu.

• 1:57:32Jocko Willink?

  Three hours per week?

• 1:57:34Speaker 01

  Three hours per week, just once, once a week. Like it was like, I think mine was on Wednesday. And on Wednesday, you got a menu, you had a little like you had a team and you made this food and we like all had a potluck at the end of everyone's menu that you bring. And the food was like crispy chicken thighs, like mashed potatoes with so much delicious butter, brownies, homemade, like homemade pita, homemade hummus. Like we'd all make different things and we'd all put it on this long table.

• 1:58:13Speaker 01

  And it's a 10 week course. I did not eat a bite of our food that we made for the whole 10 weeks. And my teacher said, as a chef, as a food scientist, you have to taste your food and see what it needs. Like if it needs salt, if it needs pepper, no, don't trick me like that. No, I was like, I didn't, I did not try it. I said, can you try this food? I would ask my partners, can you try it? Is it, is it good enough? Is it salty enough? I wouldn't even touch it. Yeah. But in my mind, that's why I said, I know I have so much discipline, right, right, right?

• 1:58:50Speaker 01

  But then in my mind, as we were talking about, it made so much sense to me. Like it, it is not in my control and like that, that's like, what are you gonna track a bite? Like you don't even know how much stuff is in that bite. You don't know how much butter is in the mashed potatoes. You don't, you can't, you can't track it. So better off just leaving it. Um, and I was, that made so much sense in my head. I honestly was like so proud of myself too. I was like,

• 1:59:24Speaker 01

  I like made it the 10 weeks. And that's that. And then it wasn't till like a couple of weeks ago when I spoke at the Women's Assembly where I was trying to think of stories. Cause I didn't want to say I was, I was restricting myself. I wanted to come, I wanted to like convey what, what the nature of it was. And I feel like that's when I remembered that story and I was like, and I just blocked it out because it's like I, I, I don't. I wish I tried all the food, obviously. But you know, is what it is.

• 2:00:00Jocko Willink?

  So is that? Would you say that is like something or, or how did you, how did you feel like? There's, what made you say this is not correct? I am not, this isn't healthy. This isn't good for me. What made you think that? Was there like a straw that broke the camel's back? I know that you also told me you were like, weren't going out with your friends because you were just like, well, I don't know where they're going. I don't know what they're gonna be eating. So I'd, I'd rather just stay home. Cause it's better and I'll be stronger and more disciplined if I just stay in my house.

• 2:00:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, so basically going to college, I thought like, I, I would say like, I struggled with food. Like I would say it in the past tense, like talking about the senior year of wrestling. Like I would say I struggled with food, but it's all good now. And, um,

• 2:00:49Jocko Willink?

  Because now I have control.

• 2:00:50Speaker 01

  Exactly. So, cause, cause when I was in high school, I felt a little bit more out of control. In a sense that like, I didn't, I did not measure anything. In, like, I would be like, I guess I get, I guess I had like three carne asada tacos, but you can't like weigh out like the meat, the tortillas. So, I would be in class and just be like, I struggle or like not in class. I would tell my friends like, oh yeah, I struggled with this in high school. But you know, it's, it's fine now. And I think in my mind, the first two years of college, I, I did not really think that it was that much of an issue.

• 2:01:30Speaker 01

  Until like even in that class, I didn't think it was that much of an issue. I just thought I was like dialed, you know?

• 2:01:39Jocko Willink?

  Just freaking super squared away disciplined.

• 2:01:42Speaker 01

  Imagine, um, and I guess it it wasn't the it wasn't my behavior. It was like my mind. That was my breaking point. My mind, I could not shut it off for like I I had so much trouble falling asleep because I would just constantly think about every like how I looked, everything that I ate, what I was gonna wear, how I was gonna be perceived, like the body wise to other people that I I I was going like I was driving myself actually insane. So it wasn't any of the behaviors that I was like, okay, maybe I should stop doing this. This is I was like, I cannot do this anymore. This is like making me go actually insane.

• 2:02:28Speaker 01

  And I was like, I think I talked to my friend about it, my friend Bella and she and I was like, I don't think I could do this anymore. Like I if I have to continue to live life like this, like I can't like I remember being like, what if I have to weigh my wedding cake on my wedding? Like I remember thinking that, like, what if I'm worried about that on my wedding day? Like that was like, I was like, dude, I I

• 2:02:54Jocko Willink?

  This is not healthy.

• 2:02:54Speaker 01

  Bro, like, like I, yeah, this isn't, this is not. So wasn't it wasn't like my behavior per se, because in my, because I was like, I was saying this was right. Like I was convincing myself it was right, my behavior. But my mind, I was like saying such negative things to myself. I was like, dude, I cannot continue to like be like this or else it's gonna be a freaking nightmare, you know? So.

• 2:03:21Jocko Willink?

  And then eventually you realized you wanted to get like someone to help you out through the situation.

• 2:03:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. So basically after I realized I can't do this anymore, I talked to my friend and I was like, I think I'm gonna try to like fix it by myself because I didn't want like same same thing like since seventh grade, I hadn't said anything really. So I was like, I'm I'm just gonna watch YouTube videos about people who maybe were struggling with the same things. And just like, try to help myself. But then I had, I still had that back and forth of like, you're being dramatic. You don't need help. Because it was in my own mind. I was like, bro, why are you like, why are you like, making it more of a bigger deal than it is? So I was like, okay, this is that's that's sort of when I realized like, I I I want to reach out so that I can like,

• 2:04:13Speaker 01

  have someone that holds me like accountable or like helps me, you know?

• 2:04:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So you called me and mom.

• 2:04:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:04:21Jocko Willink?

  And you're like, yo, I need, I need some help. Here's what's going on.

• 2:04:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, I I just immediately started crying. But I don't think you really remember this conversation too much.

• 2:04:31Jocko Willink?

  I don't remember it too much. I remember, and we talked about this the other day, I was like a little bit confused.

• 2:04:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:04:37Jocko Willink?

  Because to me, you were the perfect child, you know what I mean? I mean, no, but I mean, to me, you were just awesome. You were always like super confident, like, you did not, you were the, you were one of the most confident humans I'd ever known. And so when you're like, I don't feel good about myself. And I'm like, who, who is this? You know what I mean? But luckily, also at that time,

• 2:05:04Jocko Willink?

  you know, we had Jordan Peterson on the podcast years before this, and I learned something from him. What I learned from him was that there's problems that people have, and there's people that know how to fix those problems. Like, I I didn't understand that before in my life. It was Jordan Peterson, like hanging out with him and talking, literally when he's on my podcast, I was like, oh, because he was explaining that it was, it was um, exposure therapy. He's like, oh, yeah, when someone's scared of needles, here's what you do. You put a needle in the room, you tell them that there's a needle in the room, you have them walk to the door and touch the door. And then a week later, you open the door and they see that the needle's on the desk. And then a week later, and you, and I was like, oh, he knows how to do this. He knows how to fix that problem.

• 2:05:49Jocko Willink?

  And by the way, if you're scared of this, or if you have trouble talking to people, or if there's all kinds of problems that you can have in your life, and there's people that know how to fix those problems. And the way I ended up saying it, I don't know if I said it to him that time, but eventually what I told people is like, When you have a problem with your car, you don't just like start,

• 2:06:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:06:10Jocko Willink?

  You know, fiddle, fiddling with it. You go to, especially nowadays, you go to a mechanic. Cause in the old days, you could figure it out. Nowadays with these new cars, you ain't figuring anything out. There's computers, there's stuff in there you can't figure out. So nowadays you take your car, you bring it to thing. He's got a diagnostics machine. He plugs it and he goes, oh, here's the problem. And they can sort that problem out.

• 2:06:31Speaker 01

  And then you can use your car.

• 2:06:32Jocko Willink?

  Then you can use your car again and it all turns out good. So when you were talking, I was like, okay, well, I was confused at first, but I was like, okay, well, obviously it's something that's like the fact that you were crying. I was like, oh my gosh. And mom, of course, is like the most supportive, awesome person ever. And so we were like, cool, do it. You know, find someone that you can talk to, to help you out. And that's what you did.

• 2:06:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, mom actually sent me like, she sent me someone that, that her friend recommended, like she went out and looked for therapists for me. And she actually found my therapist, which is nice.

• 2:07:12Jocko Willink?

  Mom's awesome.

• 2:07:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. She was like, this girl doesn't have enough, doesn't, isn't taking clients right now, but she has a friend who's really awesome. And I went to the friend. And I've been with her ever since.

• 2:07:23Jocko Willink?

  And so

• 2:07:26Jocko Willink?

  the primary thing that she did to you is ask you questions. Is that right? Explain this to me, what she's talking to you about, cause I still don't know.

• 2:07:36Jocko Willink?

  I've had this conversation with a lot of people. We've had it on the podcast a couple of times. I was like, what do they do to you? What do they say to you?

• 2:07:42Speaker 01

  They don't do anything.

• 2:07:43Jocko Willink?

  Okay. So what do they do? What do they say?

• 2:07:44Speaker 01

  You, so basically you tell them like they, they don't know you. And this was over Zoom because it was COVID and I was living in slow and she's in the area.

• 2:07:57Speaker 01

  And they basically have like multiple days where they're just asking you questions. It's not, they're not trying to figure anything out, or at least my, my therapist wasn't. But they just ask you questions just to get to know you. And then you start like pulling threads, but they're not pulling the threads. It's you, it's them asking you questions. How did that make you feel about it? And saying things out loud was like, it was all the stuff that I was telling myself in that, in my head. And when I said it out loud, I was like, dude, that's not chill. Like tha- that's, that's like the biggest like help in my opinion. Like is you will convince your mi- like you always talk about this.

• 2:08:42Speaker 01

  You convince your mind that this is the right path and, and I shouldn't work out today because I have all this stuff going on, right?

• 2:08:52Speaker 01

  So in my mind, it's like I

• 2:08:54Jocko Willink?

  Your, your mind was the opposite. You should work out today. It doesn't matter how you feel, you need to get in there, you need to burn these extra calories, you need to do this.

• 2:09:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. But, but you always talk about like excuses, making excuses for yourself. Well, I was doing that in a sense, making everything that I was doing okay in my mind. That when I said it out loud, I was like, bro, this is like not, not okay. And she would like ask me questions and we would change, we would change subjects if I was crying too much. And she was like, oh, if we can go to like, she's the nicest. But it's more just pulling at the strings. Why, why, why did this happen? Why do you feel like this? Why do you talk to yourself like that? Try, try like, how do you think telling yourself that specific sentence?

• 2:09:44Speaker 01

  How do you think that like makes you feel? Or how do you think you can say that in a way that like is better for yourself than, than negatively, you know?

• 2:09:57Jocko Willink?

  You made, it seems like you made um progress, but you were also like exhausted kind of.

• 2:10:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, well, because I was like coming to terms with so much stuff. Like we were talking about my childhood, we were talking about like all this stuff. And I was like, holy, but I knew, like she said, it's going to be hard work. It's not going to be fixed like in a day. It's been since seventh grade till I was like twenty at the time. Yeah, so she, I was like so physically and mentally exhausted. I would like, after therapy, I remember just laying in bed for an hour, just like, bro, like what the heck just happened? Like I would just be like, and even even to the day, to this day, I will sit in my car and just be like,

• 2:10:45Speaker 01

  thinking about it, just met, just it does exhaust you because they're asking you the questions you don't want to, like answer, you don't want to like say, say it out loud, you don't like want to admit that you ever like, did that to yourself, you know what I mean?

• 2:11:04Jocko Willink?

  How long did it take before you stopped wearing your calorie tracker? That like, did you do that? Was that quick? Were you like, holy crap, this is so jacked up. I'm taking this thing off.

• 2:11:14Speaker 01

  It was like a couple of, a couple of weeks after I like decided like this is, I, I, I just want to change.

• 2:11:22Jocko Willink?

  What about the food scale?

• 2:11:24Speaker 01

  The food scale, I, I, I, so, so when I tried to fix it myself, I upped my calories, but I was still tracking everything. So I was like, okay, perfect. I'll just get myself sixteen hundred calories. Like that's enough. Plus I work out that that gives me like eighteen hundred, whatever.

• 2:11:42Speaker 01

  It was fine in my head, made sense, common theme of this, of this, but um, yeah, I, I pretty much immediately stopped.

• 2:11:53Speaker 01

  I I yeah, I pretty much immediately stopped. It was really, really hard too, but my therapist was like, you need.

• 2:12:02Speaker 01

  Why are you doing that? Like she would ask me questions about why I'm doing that. And I knew that I wanted to get better. So I just stopped wearing my watch, stopped tracking my food and stopped working out. As a whole. Because I was like so exhausted. And I just working out has such a negative like connotation at that point and it sucks because I loved working out so much like my whole life I was working out.

• 2:12:30Speaker 01

  And I like had I had made it into such a thing of like negative like. You're gonna do this because you want to eat food later. You're gonna do this because you ate last night, you went over, so you need to do that. It was like. It was like it was like because I did not like how I looked or did not like how I feel. That's why I'm gonna work out, not because. I wanted to feel healthy, wanted to feel strong, which I felt that before, but it just got to that point where I was like. This is not like not one part of me wanted to go, especially not wearing the watch, especially not tracking anymore. I was like. Bro, I'm just gonna chill cuz I've been in this in this.

• 2:13:15Speaker 01

  Head ping pong for so long that was like. Done.

• 2:13:19Jocko Willink?

  And then you were saying after a few weeks of that, you were like, all right, I'm going for a walk.

• 2:13:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:13:24Jocko Willink?

  And that was kind of your reentry into the like. Doing something physically that you were like, oh, this is kind of nice.

• 2:13:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:13:33Jocko Willink?

  And I noticed you still go for walks.

• 2:13:35Speaker 01

  I do, I do. I do like going for walks. Yeah, I like to I when I when I'm like cutting weight for jiu jitsu. I like to go on walks. I think it's it's nice. It's like I I I really liked just. Being outside, especially when it was covid. That was the only time I was outside. My gym shut down or the rec shut down. And then I stopped going to that like warehouse thing because I was like, I don't wanna work out anymore. So then I started going on walks and it was like really nice. I really liked it. And then to podcasts on the walks and just like.

• 2:14:09Jocko Willink?

  What podcasts did you listen to?

• 2:14:13Speaker 01

  Jocko Podcast. No, I, I, I listen to a variety of things. I listened, I definitely listened to Jocko Podcasts. I listened to like, um, Huberman and I listened to like comedy podcasts as well. And just like murder podcasts, just, just various things and sort of get my mind off of it.

• 2:14:37Jocko Willink?

  Then you signed up for, uh, you started going to Headstrong, the gym up in Seoul. It's an awesome gym, by the way. It's a freaking awesome gym. Um, you went there like, now are you like, I, I'm not, I'm working out because I like to, because I like to work out.

• 2:14:51Speaker 01

  Hmm. Yeah, I, I, I just wanted, I don't know.

• 2:14:56Jocko Willink?

  Cause it's kind of, it's, there's a little bit of like, if you're an alcoholic and you're like, all right, I'm gonna quit drinking. And then you're like, you know what though? I'm just gonna have a couple beers tonight. It seems like, you know what I mean? You could, it doesn't seem like it would be a hard road, a slippery slope to slip back down. So you must've had a really good mindset change.

• 2:15:14Speaker 01

  I think, I think I was like, I felt so like free after I stopped doing all that stuff. The issue was the nighttime because I would like, a lot of times during the day I kept, I kept myself busy. I didn't want to like sit and think about, think about food, think about what I looked like. And then at night it was like my hardest, like that was when I was maybe like, I would, I would say as close to that, like, I'll just have a few beers. Like, bro, I'll just, I'll just give myself 2,000 calories. Like I would, I like, that was my hardest was falling asleep at night because I would just go through everything and I'm, I'm not following the, the regiment anymore.

• 2:15:57Speaker 01

  So like, it was really difficult, but I started, I started working out. I don't really remember. I think I just started working out a couple of times a week when before I would, was working out every day. Yeah, I'm just just doing very like, basic, basic, like, leg day, squats, and two other exercises. That's it. Just, just squats and like, RDLs and accessory, accessory.

• 2:16:25Jocko Willink?

  I can't believe you weren't there for me. I'm not what Echo is.

• 2:16:28Speaker 01

  What?

• 2:16:29Jocko Willink?

  Echo's, occasionally he gets good hell yeah in there, especially about something like that.

• 2:16:37Jocko Willink?

  So, so, you're, you start working out again, you're walking.

• 2:16:41Speaker 01

  And when I wouldn't want to do it, I, I would just not, I would just not.

• 2:16:47Jocko Willink?

  That's good.

• 2:16:49Jocko Willink?

  You end up coming home after your sophomore year, uh, for summer. And at the end of summer, we all went to the Origin Jiu-Jitsu Camp in Maine. Did you want to go?

• 2:17:04Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:17:05Jocko Willink?

  I don't think anyone in my family.

• 2:17:07Speaker 01

  Well, that summer Fran and I, that's what I was talking about earlier on Fran. Uh, my sister and I were going to like nogi classes like Thursday, just to beat each other up. Like, we just thought it was fun. And then my dad texts in the family group chat like,

• 2:17:24Speaker 01

  family origin trip camp, smiley face.

• 2:17:29Jocko Willink?

  Freaking hostile, dude. Hostile freaking family right here.

• 2:17:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:17:33Jocko Willink?

  And all the girls from the family went.

• 2:17:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:17:36Jocko Willink?

  The boy couldn't go. But, but you got there. And what happened?

• 2:17:44Speaker 01

  Um, magic. I'm just kidding. Um, I, I, I didn't do all the session. Ah, maybe I did. I think I did a lot of the sessions. I'm like, I'm here. And then I was, everyone was rolling. And like, this person asked me to roll and I was like, sure. And I just like, I I was like, bro, this is so fun. And I remembered stuff, even though I I hadn't, I did a little bit of like, club wrestling in college. But like, no- nothing serious, that was before covid. And then, um, I just, like,

• 2:18:23Speaker 01

  I just, it was so fun.

• 2:18:25Jocko Willink?

  Uh huh.

• 2:18:25Speaker 01

  So much fun, and I remembered stuff, and and I I got the sense of like, that I didn't get when I was a kid, it was like, beating someone. For once.

• 2:18:34Jocko Willink?

  Uh huh.

• 2:18:36Speaker 01

  And, yeah, it was, it was, it was pretty awesome. And also just surrounded by such like, cool coaches and like, it was just sick. And I was honestly kind of like bummed, because I was like, damn, I'm like a white belt, you know? And I was like, twenty? Yeah. So, darn it, but

• 2:19:00Speaker 01

  I came home, I went, I went back to college.

• 2:19:03Speaker 02

  Wait, why darn it? Because you, because you didn't start earlier?

• 2:19:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, because I was like, dude, this is, this is so fun. And I'm, and, and I, like, all the girls from the family lined up, and I was like, a white belt, and we were all white belts, and I'm like, I feel like, oh, damn it. You know what I mean? A little bit, a little bit, but I wasn't like, I wasn't like, super bummed at myself. I was just like, oh, this, this is really fun.

• 2:19:28Jocko Willink?

  Helen revoked herself to white belt, huh? Helen was a blue belch.

• 2:19:32Speaker 02

  Wait, she, from Fabio?

• 2:19:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:34Speaker 02

  Oh, she can't do that. She gotta wear that blue belt.

• 2:19:36Jocko Willink?

  Hmm.

• 2:19:36Speaker 02

  You don't lose a belt.

• 2:19:37Jocko Willink?

  I, I somewhat agree with you, but I'm not gonna.

• 2:19:41Speaker 01

  She didn't want, she didn't want any like.

• 2:19:43Jocko Willink?

  Fight to have over here, bruh.

• 2:19:45Speaker 01

  But I.

• 2:19:45Jocko Willink?

  Big H gonna do what Big H.

• 2:19:48Speaker 01

  She, she, we were rolling together at the camp, just, or we were doing the technique together, and it was super fun.

• 2:19:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:53Speaker 01

  And I was like, kind of. Getting after it.

• 2:19:57Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. The thing is Helen is like really athletic and also really strong. So when she was training back in the day, she was like really good. And then she just got pregnant for like 10 years. And she's and had kids like she was like you got three kids dude like you're not training when you got three kids under the age of six like you're you're under the age of five, under the age of four.

• 2:20:22Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 2:20:22Jocko Willink?

  So she didn't train, but she's still like.

• 2:20:26Speaker 01

  And I was like helping her with the moves and I was like, oh, you're a blue belchy.

• 2:20:29Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:20:30Speaker 01

  And I'm a white belchy helping you. All right.

• 2:20:32Speaker 02

  Well, look, hey, look, I'm not gonna make a big thing out of this, but your belt is not up to you. It's not up to you. It's up to the guy who gave you the belt.

• 2:20:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:20:42Speaker 02

  So you can't be like, hey, just like you can't say, hey, I'm good enough to wear a blue belt when you're still a white belt. Helen can't be like, you know what? I've been kind of studying up. So I should I think I should be a purple belt. You can't do that. You can't do it the other way either. Can't do it anyway. You know why? Because it's not up to you.

• 2:20:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:20:57Speaker 02

  I'm gonna leave you guys with that.

• 2:20:58Jocko Willink?

  Okay. Well, I'll let you. I'll let you bring that up to Helen.

• 2:21:02Speaker 02

  I'm not gonna tell her that. No, no, no.

• 2:21:04Jocko Willink?

  Um. So then you get back to college and now you got a little bit of like the desire to train the jujitsu.

• 2:21:13Jocko Willink?

  And you go to Paragon slow.

• 2:21:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I searched up jujitsu gyms near me.

• 2:21:19Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:21:19Speaker 01

  Clicked on like the first one. Booked the class.

• 2:21:23Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:21:24Speaker 01

  Online.

• 2:21:24Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:21:24Speaker 01

  And just like showed up at noon.

• 2:21:26Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:21:27Speaker 01

  In the gi.

• 2:21:31Speaker 01

  But, uh, yeah, and I I was just training a couple of ti- a couple of times a week.

• 2:21:36Jocko Willink?

  One time you called me after like a week and you were crying.

• 2:21:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:21:40Jocko Willink?

  Explain.

• 2:21:43Speaker 01

  Um, so yeah, I FaceTimed my dad. And all this I I my dad was not in my ear like you should go try out a jujitsu gym. You should look one up. Paragon's good. I was like, I looked it up. I didn't even tell you I was going to my first class. I think I called you after something.

• 2:22:00Jocko Willink?

  I think a brother paid for it over here, but that's just me.

• 2:22:02Speaker 01

  No, it was free. It was a free first class.

• 2:22:04Jocko Willink?

  I was gonna say it after that first one. After that, after that invoice rolled in, I think Big Papa got got the call there.

• 2:22:12Speaker 01

  Um, but yeah, it was very fun. I, I just, I just like, I honestly have always like loved fighting. I just think that things, things clouded in my mind in wrestling. That's, that's all like, I think I really like did love wrestling. I just like had other, other stuff in my mind that kind of, kind of decreased my love for it. Like at state, I feel like I, I like wasn't even present there because I was like worried about other stuff. You know, like I, I feel like this was my second like chance to, to, cause I did love fighting. So I start, so I start doing jiu jitsu. Um,

• 2:22:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you brought that up earlier. You brought that up earlier and I'm just gonna rehash on this. You were saying like, even though you would complain about jiu jitsu, even when you were little, when you would go against someone else in class, like you would go.

• 2:23:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, a hundred percent.

• 2:23:05Jocko Willink?

  Like you like to fight and you like to win and that was evident. And then we just had some kind of a mob mentality going on. Um, but yeah, so that, it might've gotten clouded in wrestling in your senior year. Cause you're like worried about weight and calories and all that stuff. So now you show up and now you realize you can just fight people.

• 2:23:27Speaker 01

  And I saw wrestling like as just a thing to input into my like app. It wasn't even like, I was like, okay, bro, when's the hour gonna be over? Like, so I can put down an hour of, of working out, you know? But when I found jiu jitsu again, like I di- I didn't have the app. I didn't have a tracker. I would just go and I wouldn't, I wouldn't even look at the clock genuinely. It would, the hour would go by so quickly. It was just like, you just wanted to keep rolling. Like, let's just stay, you know what I mean? But it's like that shift of, of doing, doing something because like for the right reasons instead of the wrong. And jiu jitsu like helped me so much with that.

• 2:24:12Jocko Willink?

  Back to the question I asked about when you called me when you were crying after like a week, just, it's a good lesson for everybody.

• 2:24:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. I was crying because no one, I, I.

• 2:24:24Speaker 01

  Think I exaggerated my head that no one wanted to roll with me and

• 2:24:29Jocko Willink?

  She's been there for a week.

• 2:24:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, I've been there for a week and I was like, I just, I just left. I was like, all the guys are picking each other. No one wants to roll with me, but no one knew me like, and I didn't like introduce myself to anyone like I wasn't making. I was just like, they don't want to roll with me, even though I wasn't like, hey, my name is ready. Can we roll? I was just like in the corner, like not making eye contact like, bro, no one wants to roll with you because because especially. I I've heard from a lot of guys that they wait for the girl to like make eye contact so that that you can roll, right? And I was just like, you know, not looking, not looking at all. And now, and I called my dad. I'm like, no one wants to roll with me.

• 2:25:10Speaker 01

  And everyone's friends and everyone during the warmups is like in their little groups and I was just like alone. And but I didn't introduce myself to anyone. I just walked in silent.

• 2:25:22Speaker 01

  Sat down and you know, that's that, but I call him, I'm like bawling. I still have a picture from it. I'm just like, no one wants to roll with me. And he goes like. He said, just stick with it. Thousands of people come and go, especially in jujitsu, like people sign up to try it out and then they leave. These people, these people don't want to make friends with someone that's there for one day and then dip. Although everyone at Paragon was really, really sweet and nice. It's, it's, it's just how it is, I guess. And then the longer I stuck around, I called my dad like a couple of weeks later and said, I have like a friend group. And and I'm going to lunch with them after open mat.

• 2:26:08Speaker 01

  It was really cute because and also it's so funny because it's like all such. People that you that I would never interact with, like I'm in college. I'm like. Hanging out with people that are 20 years old, same as me, and I'm going to lunch with like. This random 40 year old construction worker dude and like this other guy who's an engineer and then. You know, it's like, I swear people are like, what's going on over there? But you know? They were so awesome and like looked out for me like. And once, once they knew that I was going to stick around, they brought me in like so quickly. And were helping me, roll with me, like, show me technique, like, it was amazing.

• 2:26:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Yeah, um, you, you were telling me that like now this was something that you were doing where you were doing it. It's like basically a non-vanity exercise. You're doing it just because it is freaking fun.

• 2:27:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, a hundred percent. And also it helped me a lot with those like, with just shutting off your mind, which is not, it's not always good necessarily, always to shut off your mind. Because you have to like confront the things that you are thinking, like that's your brain. But for an hour, especially when the thoughts are like not helping in any way, you're just, you're, it's just going back and forth like this is not helping me. I need to go do something that takes my mind off of it and like lifting, it's just kind of monotonous. Like I, I like lifting.

• 2:27:44Speaker 01

  It just, you're still thinking about things, like when you're lifting, or when I was lifting at least. And when I was doing jiu-jitsu, like I seriously would go out and be like, bruh, like what was I even like? I, I'm like, I didn't even think about one thing that out is outside of the map. Like I was just like so interested in it and like wanted to learn, wanted to like get better, wanted to fight. Like I just thought it was so fun. And it, it helped me so much with building back my relationship with exercise.

• 2:28:16Jocko Willink?

  And you started competing too pretty quick.

• 2:28:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. My friend, my friend, like we, I, I started training, like I trained a couple of days a week. And then I was training every day. And then I was, my friend was like, should we do this competition? Yeah.

• 2:28:31Jocko Willink?

  Alex Tavs.

• 2:28:35Speaker 01

  He was like, let's do this competition. And I'm like, all right, let's do it. It was like Jiu-Jitsu World League. I, we had to drive like three hours to get there or something.

• 2:28:45Speaker 01

  And it was fun. It was good.

• 2:28:48Jocko Willink?

  How'd you do?

• 2:28:49Speaker 01

  Good. I I got like third or second in gi and first in no gi. It was good.

• 2:28:54Jocko Willink?

  Even though you're training mostly gi at that time?

• 2:28:56Speaker 01

  I was training a lot of gi. Yeah, there was one day that was no gi. They're um more of like a traditional school. And honestly, it was really, I I look back and I'm grateful that I trained gi because I think if I started anywhere else and they had no gi options, I would never have gone to gi. I seriously would never. And gi is so frustrating, especially like as a wrestler and I like when when I got the when I got the feeling to train jiu jitsu, it would always be no gi, like with me and my sister. And so four days of the week and open mat was all gi. So

• 2:29:34Jocko Willink?

  Gi it is.

• 2:29:34Speaker 01

  That that just showed that I I was like, bro, I don't like gi, but I'm gonna like, I'm gonna do it.

• 2:29:39Jocko Willink?

  But it's also interesting that you won no gi, even though you weren't training it.

• 2:29:44Speaker 01

  Well, I was training. Yeah, I was. Yeah.

• 2:29:46Jocko Willink?

  It's because you because you have the wrestling background and you have uh you some of your jiu jitsu was no gi based from burk today.

• 2:29:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:29:54Jocko Willink?

  Um. And when it when was that viral video? Was that that year?

• 2:30:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was at that competition.

• 2:30:02Jocko Willink?

  Oh, was that that competition?

• 2:30:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, my first tournament back.

• 2:30:06Jocko Willink?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 2:30:06Speaker 01

  So so you saw the video, right?

• 2:30:09Jocko Willink?

  Did you see the viral video? Yeah, it's uh.

• 2:30:12Speaker 01

  So basically, it was my it was like semifinals for no gi. And it was both of our first competitions. I'm pretty sure I I I talked to her. And and I like locked in a choke and I I

• 2:30:30Speaker 01

  did not know. I I was like, oh, she's chilling because um it's competition. People don't tap and and I thought it wasn't like.

• 2:30:42Speaker 01

  Secure enough and I was just like and she was belly down.

• 2:30:46Jocko Willink?

  So she was belly down, you had hooks in.

• 2:30:49Speaker 01

  I was pretty.

• 2:30:50Jocko Willink?

  And but she was flattened and you had your hooks in. So which was weird about that, the reason that's important is because her legs weren't like laying on the ground limp because of your legs being in there, her legs look like she was like active.

• 2:31:04Jocko Willink?

  But you put her to sleep and the ref didn't know.

• 2:31:08Speaker 01

  The ref, the ref was standing up and I didn't, I like didn't really know what to do. I, I definitely should have let go, but

• 2:31:20Speaker 01

  I was so traumatized by it after.

• 2:31:23Jocko Willink?

  Hold on also, just real quick, her, the coaches, or I don't know if it's the coaches, but people were also while she was unconscious, because once you watch the video, you're like, oh, she's asleep right there.

• 2:31:32Speaker 01

  I was looking up at the ref like.

• 2:31:34Jocko Willink?

  But coaches were like, or I don't know if it's coaches, but people on her side, on her, her supporters were like, you know, grab the hand, grab the hand.

• 2:31:42Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:31:42Jocko Willink?

  So there, so you, hearing people coaching her, that's another indicator to you, just like, okay, we'll just hang on. And finally, her coach realized what was happening and ran in and stopped it.

• 2:31:54Speaker 01

  Pushed me off of her. The ref didn't stop the match.

• 2:31:57Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the coach did.

• 2:31:58Speaker 01

  But yeah, so they like flipped her over and she was like purple.

• 2:32:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So the coach came in, finally broke it up. And then, uh, you know, it kind of went viral because you have a person that gets choked out and it's clear that the ref was and you, you both were white belts.

• 2:32:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:32:19Jocko Willink?

  You know, the, the ref eventually figured out, but, or sorry, the coach came in and stopped it. So there was, the reason it went viral was because

• 2:32:29Speaker 01

  The ref didn't stop it.

• 2:32:30Jocko Willink?

  The ref not stopping. And yeah, and the, the coach wasn't mad at you at all.

• 2:32:35Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:32:36Jocko Willink?

  He was mad at the ref.

• 2:32:39Jocko Willink?

  So yeah, you called me and you were all bummed out and like all sad and like as you just said, quote unquote traumatized.

• 2:32:46Speaker 01

  Well, I in the moment, in the moment, I like it was, it was really like scary. I'd never, I never put anyone out before.

• 2:32:54Jocko Willink?

  Yep. You know.

• 2:32:56Speaker 01

  And I was like squeezing that choke too. Like it was like no.

• 2:33:00Jocko Willink?

  And when you put a choke on, will you put anything on?

• 2:33:03Speaker 01

  No, a little kid can choke you out too.

• 2:33:06Jocko Willink?

  That's the crazy thing. I tell people this. When you're learning, like you teach someone that's just learning jujitsu, the rear naked choke, it's like now you can kill someone.

• 2:33:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:33:15Jocko Willink?

  And they're all freaked out. But you know what's even crazier than that? Take a steak knife. You can kill someone just as easy with a steak knife. Just walk up and stick it in their freaking neck. They're gonna die. But people get all freaked out. When there's really, like every time you start up your car, you can kill somebody. Life is not, you know, that, that robust and sturdy that you can survive a bunch of things. So, well, I remember you called me and I was, I, I had to, you know, be understanding, but at the same time, I said, hey, there's 10 people that get choked out at every jujitsu tournament. 10 people go to sleep. 10 people are going to sleep. I said, no one's gonna care about this. I go, other than the ref, I go to be, some people

• 2:33:59Jocko Willink?

  watch it, some people make comments, but whatever, don't worry about it. And so I think that might have helped a little bit. What really helped you is you went to class on Monday, because I called, I called you after you left class on Monday.

• 2:34:09Speaker 01

  I didn't even want to train. Like I was embarrassed. I don't know.

• 2:34:13Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:34:13Speaker 01

  And yeah, I went to class and everyone was like, good job.

• 2:34:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, good job at the, they, they weren't even like, good job. No, they're just like, hey, good job at the tournament. I heard you, you won. She's like, oh, you didn't hear that I choked someone out? Uh, uh, no, we don't care about any of that.

• 2:34:26Speaker 01

  And the girl's good, by the way. I like messaged her and her coach and like apologized and they were like, you don't, we understand. Yeah, she was really nice.

• 2:34:37Jocko Willink?

  Um, and then you, and then you just kept competing. You've been competing, competing, and you're kind of wrapping up college. But what I liked is right towards the end of college, you learned one thing, very important.

• 2:34:49Jocko Willink?

  Very important thing. And that was your dad. Me. Despite maybe not approaching it in the best way, I was actually right. And the way that I was right was. As part, you were a nutrition science major, but you also had a minor in what?

• 2:35:06Speaker 01

  Exercise and sports studies.

• 2:35:08Jocko Willink?

  Exercise and sports studies. And for one of those classes, you had to do a DECA scan.

• 2:35:14Speaker 01

  Dexa.

• 2:35:15Jocko Willink?

  Dexa sta- scan. And that is. It basically checks your. Your body, your bone density, your muscle density, and. It looks at you like internally and sees what you're constructed of. And you got it done.

• 2:35:33Jocko Willink?

  You got it done. And you sent me the image, the image, because your. Actual density was off. It was the, it was the, the highest possible point on the chart, like there was no one else there. It was ninety nine point nine nine. Ninety nine point ninety ninth percentile of humans is what you are made of. So. That's. I was like, you sent me that? I was like, I told you. I was right. I was right. Like you are not normal.

• 2:36:06Speaker 01

  Dense.

• 2:36:06Jocko Willink?

  You are dense. Like it's actually called a densitometry. That's what it's called densitometry. And it measures. How dense you are. And that's why when you were a little kid, I would pick you up and be like, is this girl made of metal? Because she's heavy. And of course, I recognize now that that. Is not the best wording to use. Especially for a girl. And this is when you were real little, but. It's funny because I, you know, you ever heard Joe Rogan tell the story about Yoel Romero? So Yoel Romero got his. He got punched in the head. I think he broke his orbital bone and they sent him to the hospital and they did x-rays and some doctor.

• 2:36:51Jocko Willink?

  Calls, calls Dana White or Joe Rogan or something and is like. Yo, where did you find this guy? And they're like, what do you mean? They're like, where does he from? What? This is not normal. And they said, what's, what's not normal? They x-rayed him. And the tendons in his eyes were like three times the size of a normal human. And that's why that guy is just a maniac, right? I mean, he's just, he's built, literally built different. He's built different. And that's, that's where you are. You're, you're actually scientifically built different. It's a weird genetic thing. And it's like some things, some things genetic, you can take a little bit of genetic and you can also add some conditioning.

• 2:37:37Jocko Willink?

  Like, like cold water, right? Like we, we were, we were talking earlier about, um, like dunking your heads and I would have contests to see who could dunk your heads. But there's some people that are naturally going to be able to handle the cold better than other people. You got to see this in SEAL training. If you have a guy that's like, uh, maybe he's from Florida, maybe he's like ripped, like shredded. He's gonna have a hard time in the cold. Then you get some guy from Nebraska and he's well marbled. And he's just like, whatever, dude, I'll get in that cold. Uh, but you can also, but then you can also get used to it. You can, you can, you can increase your ability to handle cold water. Like, and you guys were always doing that. I remember when you were little kids,

• 2:38:23Jocko Willink?

  we were at Yosemite one time. And the water in Yosemite coming out of the river, Echo Charles, it's coming from, you know, ice. And it's, but it's flowing down, so it's, it's not frozen anymore, but it's forty-three degrees, something like that. And so I had a contest with the kids who can stay in the longest.

• 2:38:44Jocko Willink?

  And

• 2:38:46Jocko Willink?

  her and her brother were in there.

• 2:38:51Jocko Willink?

  And this, this is cold water. This is hypothermia water. They, and whoever could stay in the longest would get an ice cream.

• 2:39:00Jocko Willink?

  My kids would do freaking anything for an ice cream. Makes sense. So I put him in there and they're in there probably forty two degree waters freaking cold. And they're just neck deep, neck deep, just looking at me. Thirty minutes. I'm looking at them, waiting for one of them to D O R. Neither one of them was quitting.

• 2:39:24Jocko Willink?

  And so, and I look, I like get in and look at their lips. They're both their lips are blue. All their lips are blue. And I just gave them both an ice cream. Yeah, good idea. But see, there's a level of this. A part of that's genetic. Part of it's just mental will. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And part of it is conditioning, but like you, your bone dense, your density as a human. That's different. That's like, that's like a genetic thing. And that's what, you know, Rogan, I was told Rogan because you actually ran and told me that he had something. He like said one time, uh, I want a girl who can help me move a couch. So I sent him that thing. I said, I actually sent him the, the, the graph.

• 2:40:05Jocko Willink?

  And I'm like, I circled it with red because you, if you didn't circle it with red, it's so far off the chart, you wouldn't see it.

• 2:40:11Speaker 01

  It's on the border.

• 2:40:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there's like the edge.

• 2:40:14Speaker 01

  I'm not even kidding.

• 2:40:14Jocko Willink?

  The edge of the chart. There it is. Like there's no one else there. Yeah. And so I circled it and I explained it to him and um, I told him, I said, hey, you know, you, you say, you know, my daughter said you, you want a girl who can help you move a couch. And um, I told him, I'm like, dude, if you need a couch moved, like this girl's got it. Solo, solo activities. But you know, the thing is though, is

• 2:40:41Jocko Willink?

  it's, it's just interesting because you have this special, you know, um, genetic gift. And because of society and because of me and, and just like you were, you were at a, at, you were embarrassed of this gift that you had. You know what I mean? And that's just terrible. So I'm glad that wrestling and jujitsu has brought it to a point where you recognize the, the glory of it.

• 2:41:10Speaker 01

  But it's not just genetics though, because we've been lifting since we were like so young and lifting, we learned in, in like college was. Like helps your bones get so, so strong. And I think like lifting from such a young age and really like implementing that. Since we were what in elementary school, you would make us. Get up and do workouts in the morning before school.

• 2:41:36Jocko Willink?

  I think all, I think all children could benefit from kettlebells in the morning. There you go. I remember I would have like these metcons set up. Sure. And they would be carrying the kettlebells up the alley like a racing. And then kettlebell swings, pull ups, sprawls was a real big one. Spraws was an early form of the burpee. Yeah. You know, um, but or burpees themselves. But I would always have my kids sprawling sprawls, sprawls, sprawl. Here's a, here's a, a very solid workout for your children. Uh, every minute on the minute, five burpees.

• 2:42:14Speaker 01

  I thought it was five pull, oh yeah.

• 2:42:16Jocko Willink?

  Five burpees and then max pull ups or five burpees, max dips or five burpees, max some other, you can pick any other exercise. But you know, five burpees takes depending. You know, fifteen to thirty seconds, depending on how hard your child is working. Sure. And, and how much you need to discipline them. But then they have thirty seconds, but it's, it's a very, it's a crushing way to, to work out.

• 2:42:44Speaker 01

  Especially when your two siblings are doing it with you and you, they did five pull ups and so.

• 2:42:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:42:52Speaker 01

  You want to do a little bit more than them.

• 2:42:58Jocko Willink?

  So that was good, but that's, that's, it was, it was kind of redeeming. When I saw that chart, bro, I was, I was very excited about it. I was like, cause it seemed like it seemed so obvious, seemed real. And now it's like, well, there you go. Yeah. Science. Yep. Factual.

• 2:43:16Jocko Willink?

  And then from there, when you graduated college, then it was time to put that gift to use.

• 2:43:25Jocko Willink?

  Now you're down here in, in San Diego. You work at Victory MMA and Fitness. You teach Jiu Jitsu. You train Jiu Jitsu. You train primarily at Victory MMA and Legion, Legion AJJ. Sorry about that. They're Keenan and Miha. Yeah, gotta differentiate that one.

• 2:43:46Jocko Willink?

  What, what are you, what's your schedule like? When you wake up in the morning?

• 2:43:53Speaker 01

  Jiu Jitsu all the, all the time, every day. Yeah, I, I started training at Legion when Victory had the fire in it and there was nowhere to train. I trained, I trained in my friend's garage, which, who had mats and would train in the morning, but that was at 6 a.m. And the rest of the day I was like, I didn't have a job because the gym burned down. They were finding a temporary location and I still wanted to compete and, and I really had never tried out another gym in San Diego because Victory is here. And I tried out a class at Legion because you, my dad, well you.

• 2:44:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, me.

• 2:44:39Speaker 01

  Who is also my dad, is friends with Sloan and Miha and Keenan. He would train with them, cross train.

• 2:44:47Speaker 01

  And I started taking Sloan's classes and Jay Flo's classes and training with Paige, who is insanely good at Jiu Jitsu. And and now that there's a temporary location, I started cross training and it's been amazing. I have such good training partners and coaches at Victory and at Legion, so it's good. Can't complain. And then I love teaching the kids. It's so amazing. Um, yeah. And my schedule, yeah, just train Jiu Jitsu in the morning. Come home, eat breakfast, go train Jiu Jitsu again.

• 2:45:26Speaker 01

  Do Jay Flo's classes twice a week, get a, have a private with Paige and Jay Flo and just lift.

• 2:45:36Speaker 01

  As much as I can. And yeah. Teach the kids.

• 2:45:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, teaching kids, coaching kids. You're always at tournaments, coaching kids.

• 2:45:47Jocko Willink?

  Are you, are you in the sauna ice bath game?

• 2:45:50Speaker 01

  Not really.

• 2:45:51Jocko Willink?

  Are you more, well, you definitely do them sometimes, but you're just like a weekend warrior when it comes to those things or something?

• 2:45:57Speaker 01

  Um, in the beginning, I was like super into it.

• 2:46:01Jocko Willink?

  Into what part?

• 2:46:02Speaker 01

  Into the sauna ice bath. I just. Slacking, bro. I don't know, but I, I like.

• 2:46:09Jocko Willink?

  Doesn't it make you feel good?

• 2:46:10Speaker 01

  It, it does, but like.

• 2:46:14Speaker 01

  I don't know. The day is long of training. I don't. It's like.

• 2:46:18Jocko Willink?

  Don't you feel like it gives you recovery, though?

• 2:46:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, what I was gonna say was when I started wrestling again, with J, J Flo is basically only wrestling and I hadn't really. I really did a lot of jiu jitsu on the ground. I, in my, in Paragon, we really didn't wrestle that often. And. I didn't really wrestle that much. Like. Since high school. And when I started taking J Flo's classes, it was a gut check, straight rounds on the feet. No pulling guard. Lots of times we're just doing like wrestling rounds, just get your two points, come back up.

• 2:47:00Speaker 01

  And I, my like middle back, just from like my stance and holding my head up and getting my head like. Pushed down, getting, getting slammed, getting like judo thrown in the most elegant way. Bro, my middle back was really like really hurting and the sauna, that's when I started implementing the sauna.

• 2:47:23Speaker 01

  A lot, doing, doing a stretch, stretching routine in the sauna. For like a couple of weeks and that, that like helped so much. But yeah, just, just training jiu jitsu and lifting.

• 2:47:34Jocko Willink?

  What are you eating?

• 2:47:36Speaker 01

  Eating gun. Yeah.

• 2:47:41Speaker 01

  There's no, there's no like, I don't follow a strict diet or anything. There's no

• 2:47:48Speaker 01

  like specific animal base, like I don't do any of that, just I do eat red meat though, lots of it. And yeah, just, just trying to get protein in in the morning. Like I, I normally will have like a milk or protein pancakes or something of that sort, just, just because I have heinous. I, I probably just trained heinously and then I have heinous training after.

• 2:48:13Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, um, I can confirm that you drink a lot of freaking milk in our house.

• 2:48:17Speaker 01

  I like, I like this, I like making like smoothies with it, like the powder.

• 2:48:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Um, so a few months ago, I had some people visit down here in San Diego. They were making a movie called Way of the Warrior Kid and obviously in the movie Way of the Warrior Kid, there's going to be kids that are doing jujitsu and the producer and the director, or one of the producers and the director were like, hey, do you know anyone that could like help us with training the kids up in jujitsu? And this was McG and, and Ben Everard. And they're like, hey, do you know, do you have anyone that could help us train the kids in jujitsu? And I said, uh, I think I might have the ultimate person for that.

• 2:49:03Jocko Willink?

  So you came up and helped out training these two kids. Um, Ava Torres and Jude Hill, who play Mark and Nora in the movie Way of the Warrior Kid. And you trained, you came up and trained them in jujitsu. How did you like that?

• 2:49:22Speaker 01

  It was so, so, so fun. It was so last minute. Um, because you were like, we gotta check on the budget for the movie and stuff. And I was like, all right, um, I teach kids jujitsu, like I will, will try to get it covered for as many weeks as I can. And so I went, I went up, I think you told me like Saturday.

• 2:49:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:49:43Speaker 01

  And I went up on like Monday.

• 2:49:45Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 2:49:46Speaker 01

  And it was so awesome. And it was interesting because normally jujitsu is such a long journey. I mean, think about my jujitsu journey. It's been like over a decade.

• 2:50:01Jocko Willink?

  You just got your purple belt too, by the way.

• 2:50:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:50:03Jocko Willink?

  Purple belt, chief. Big time. Okay.

• 2:50:05Speaker 01

  Um, and so it was gonna be sort of different because with the kids classes, you only want to teach one or two moves a day because, bro, everyone just wants to roll. And also they're not retaining, like even I can't, like even I can't pay attention to more than a couple moves in the, in a jujitsu class. So, but for this one, it wasn't like we had all this time to teach them jujitsu and the Ava had to be like higher rank in the movie. So we had like three hours a day of just straight up technique and they were, they were troopers.

• 2:50:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:50:47Speaker 01

  For real. It's can be so, to make it look technical and good. And I know that that was your vision for The Way of the Warrior Kid. We didn't want it to look like silly, like martial art, like whatever. So I, I was, it was a cool challenge for me because it's, it's different from teaching the kids at Victory. It was like, we have to do this. And I, I wanted them to understand that, to understand jujitsu. It, because we did have some impromptu scenes where they were like, okay, do, do something. And I was like, oh, and we, thankfully, we went over a bunch of stuff.

• 2:51:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:51:23Speaker 01

  That we hadn't planned on putting in it.

• 2:51:26Jocko Willink?

  You were a fight coordinator for sure.

• 2:51:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:51:28Jocko Willink?

  What about, even before we started filming, you came up and when you were helping, because you were right up with me, you were like sitting in meetings. You were in casting meetings and with me and McG and Ben and Mary, just like looking at people, like, wasn't that?

• 2:51:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:51:46Jocko Willink?

  And you also were there when we were going through the script, line by line. Were you there for that?

• 2:51:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was.

• 2:51:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So you're there.

• 2:51:52Speaker 01

  That was right when I got there.

• 2:51:53Jocko Willink?

  Line by line. And you could see.

• 2:51:57Jocko Willink?

  How this all comes to fruition, as you said, like, like the, the, all the things that went into it. That had to be awesome to watch.

• 2:52:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was, it was honestly crazy, the whole. Because when I went, I didn't know the progress of the movie yet, so like, having it call, like, the whole floor was all for Warrior Kid, and I.

• 2:52:20Jocko Willink?

  The whole floor of a building, she's saying that, Charles, like this entire floor of this building.

• 2:52:24Speaker 01

  And it's, and it's a bunch of people too, it's not, it's not, I, I fully was like, it's gonna be a couple of dudes, like.

• 2:52:33Speaker 01

  Like, I was like, alright, let's see what, let's see what's gonna happen, but this guy comes up to dad and he's like, has the exact replica of his like glasses, and I'm like, what? And he's like, did I get this part right? And he faded them, and he made them, and I was like, bro, and then he pulls out his watches, and I'm like, dude, what is going on? This is crazy, that's his, that was his job, and he killed it.

• 2:52:55Jocko Willink?

  Head of props, yeah.

• 2:52:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it was so like,

• 2:53:01Speaker 01

  technical, what, what he was pointing out, I was like, bro, they're, they're, they're like, they're focusing on that little thing, that's crazy, like, that must be, that must be legit.

• 2:53:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:53:10Speaker 01

  So then I sat in on one of the script readings, and it was so good, the, the director, McG.

• 2:53:20Speaker 01

  I, I, I, I listened to the Warrior Kid, I was like, alright, but he, he would stand up in every scene, he would stand up, say, alright, Taco, stand up with me, so we can act this out, and I was literally like, bro, this is so good. It was crazy, and, and that one was when it sort of clicked to me, like, this is, this is not just gonna be like a movie about like, I, like, I got bullied and did jujitsu, it was like, there's so many more elements to it that, that are in the movie and thought by the writers, and it's so like elaborate and, and it's amazing, and the set was crazy too, like, the amount of hands needed on that set was, was wild and

• 2:54:05Speaker 01

  so much fun, but coaching the kids was really cool, it was the first time doing jujitsu. And their parents were watching like, what the heck is going on? Cause we, I was like, okay, these are the four positions. I didn't really, because it's what I'm surrounded by all the time. And I trained with guys, I trained with girls, like I don't, I don't pay much attention as I like should to, to things like that, to people maybe feeling uncomfortable.

• 2:54:34Jocko Willink?

  Jiu Jitsu is just, we don't think of it as this, the most, the most contact sport that there is, period. End of story. There is no sport that's more close contact than Jiu Jitsu. There's just the most close contact. And I knew that. So as we were introducing like, both Jude and Ava's mom are there. And I'm like, hey, this thing we're about to do is real lot of close contact, very, very, very.

• 2:54:59Speaker 01

  And I'm almost happy I didn't really think about it because I was, I was literally just acting like I was coaching Victory. This is so fun, making them so comfortable, which was like my top priority because I just wanted, I wanted them to work like well together. Because same thing, having someone that you have, they're your partner. That's like, that's such a key thing. And they worked so well together. What I was gonna say was, oh, when I first started training Jiu Jitsu, um, I would be like confused about women's classes. I would be confused about like separate classes because I was like, what do you mean?

• 2:55:38Speaker 01

  Like I, I didn't, because I grew up around it. I literally grew up like having freaking.

• 2:55:47Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:55:47Speaker 01

  All they did breathing in my ear. Like I was like, all right. And then I wrestled and I was confused. I was like, why? And, and now when I start with girls, they say, I'm, I like, when they grab my wrist, I'm like, bro, you gotta grab my wrist. This isn't like this. You need to put your weight on me. I'll be fine. But thi- this is what I've, what I realized about Jiu Jitsu for women is like, that is one of the main concerns. And I never even really put the, if I'm grabbing your wrist, bro, it's gonna be like with, like, I'm not gonna let go, you know? But. Like, teaching, I understand the girls' class now.

• 2:56:31Jocko Willink?

  And by girls, you mean girls and?

• 2:56:32Speaker 01

  Women, women, women, yeah. And, and I understand it to like a level where I did, I seriously was like, why would they do that? And now I understand, talking to so many girls that first started jiu-jitsu, just having, like, we, just learning how to put your weight on someone is so foreign to a lot of women, that it feels so like weird and like, I understand that that would be weird in like a class if you've never done it before. So, that's, that's one thing that I try to like, try to help with, like, especially the girls in, in classes, is like, even if, even if they're paired with the guys, just like making them comfortable,

• 2:57:15Speaker 01

  being like, bro, they're gonna be fine, they're tough, you can put your weight on them, you know?

• 2:57:19Jocko Willink?

  I even, I even talk about that from a self-defense perspective, is if, if you've never had someone freaking grab on to you.

• 2:57:27Speaker 01

  It's gonna be scary.

• 2:57:28Jocko Willink?

  There's three seconds to five seconds to maybe even, you don't snap out of it, of shock, of just like, huh huh, like you're just not used to it.

• 2:57:37Speaker 01

  Even, even when I'm rolling now and I've trained like jiu-jitsu and wrestling, if I can't get a dude off of me in side control, I like freak out. And I'm like, I'm the mo, I'm like so seasoned that it would, you wouldn't think it would. But I start, I'm like, dude, this is like crazy, I, I like simply can't get him off of me and that's scary.

• 2:58:00Jocko Willink?

  Well, I feel that way sometimes too, to be honest with you. That's a normal thing. Yeah.

• 2:58:05Jocko Willink?

  McG.

• 2:58:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, what the crazy thing is, so McG, he like, came down here, like, and met me and was like, this is what I realized, McG had, McG had the vision in his head.

• 2:58:23Jocko Willink?

  Like he could see, cause I can't see a movie in my head. I can see a jujitsu move in my head. I can see a, an assault on a target in my head. I can see surfing a wave in my head, but I can't see a movie in my head. Cause I've never done that before, but McG.

• 2:58:39Speaker 01

  He sees it.

• 2:58:40Jocko Willink?

  He could see it.

• 2:58:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:58:41Jocko Willink?

  And so that's what I realized, he was, when he was down here talking to me, he was, he was trying to explain to me what he could see. And I was like, I, I, even then it'd be like me trying to explain to someone that didn't surf like, no, and then the, and then the curls, like the, the lip starts to come over your head and.

• 2:58:59Speaker 01

  And you're like, can you see it?

• 2:59:00Jocko Willink?

  If you surf, you can see it, but if you don't surf, you're just like.

• 2:59:04Speaker 01

  You're like, alright dude.

• 2:59:05Jocko Willink?

  And I didn't realize it until like, it was probably, well, it was while we were filming, we were shooting a scene. And I remembered him describing this to me and I was like, oh, McG saw this in his head. When he read the script, he saw what this would and could look like. And I was like, oh, and he has this for the whole movie.

• 2:59:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:59:28Jocko Willink?

  The whole thing, not too, not every single little detail, cause as you see when we're up there, we're flexing and we're making moves and we're making changes and all that stuff's cool. But he had the, the, the framework. And some of the scenes, the specifics in his head of like, I know what this is supposed to look like.

• 2:59:45Jocko Willink?

  And that's what, and that's what we got to do. Um.

• 2:59:49Jocko Willink?

  Jude and Ava, when you met them, were you like? Cause I was like, oh my gosh, they're like the.

• 2:59:55Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, they're perfect.

• 2:59:56Jocko Willink?

  They're so good for the roles.

• 2:59:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, and they were so, they were so like eager to learn something new and, and just jumping right into it because we didn't have much time and, and.

• 3:00:07Jocko Willink?

  I, I think they may have been the most willing and actively, um, positive students I've ever seen. Like they, like, to be that passionate about wanting to learn is, I get it. But I've never seen a kid that realizes, oh, I'm gonna have to be doing this in a very short period of time. I need to pay attention, I need to figure this out. Wait, show me that again. How does that work? They were both so into it. And, and worked so hard to make it happen. And then how did you feel in the filming? Cause you're in the movie. Hell yeah.

• 3:00:45Speaker 01

  Um, it was, it was like crazy. We, the first day, I think we filmed one scene like the whole time.

• 3:00:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:00:53Speaker 01

  Just for hours and hours and we were just like chilling there. Um.

• 3:00:58Jocko Willink?

  Do you remember what scene it was?

• 3:00:59Speaker 01

  It was, yeah.

• 3:01:01Jocko Willink?

  What was it? I don't, I don't remember.

• 3:01:03Speaker 01

  It was when he takes his socks off.

• 3:01:06Jocko Willink?

  Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 3:01:06Speaker 01

  Anyway, he kept having to put his socks.

• 3:01:08Jocko Willink?

  Cause he had to put his socks and she's, oh, no, no, no.

• 3:01:11Speaker 01

  But, um, it was really cool because when we were training, so, so you learn moves of jujitsu. And then, but you can tell when not, when someone hasn't like rolled before. Because you, it's very stagnant trying to do the move. But when we practiced, like, I was like past her guard. And after, uh, this was like, uh, to day two or day three and they were like.

• 3:01:40Jocko Willink?

  Going for it.

• 3:01:41Speaker 01

  Looking like kids that were in my class. And I think that was a key element to it. It wasn't just like, here's a move, here's a move, here's a move because.

• 3:01:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:01:50Speaker 01

  That's, yeah.

• 3:01:51Jocko Willink?

  That's not the jujitsu.

• 3:01:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's what, that's what J. Flo says, movement over moves.

• 3:01:55Jocko Willink?

  Hmm, J. Flo.

• 3:01:57Speaker 01

  I quote, um, but yeah, so they, I taught them moves, but they knew that they had to have, be off balance to do the scissor sweep. They weren't just trying to do it like ran, Coach Rana told me to do this move and I have to.

• 3:02:12Jocko Willink?

  Coach Rana told me right foot here, left arm there, pull this here.

• 3:02:16Speaker 01

  They were doing both sides. They were pulling on the collar. They were like making their weight go forward, which was so crazy because it genuinely like. Their scene where they're rolling looks good.

• 3:02:28Jocko Willink?

  That looks great. Um, Echo Charles, what was your assessment of, because you are also in the movie?

• 3:02:39Jocko Willink?

  And you brought a lot of excellence and legitimacy to the scene.

• 3:02:43Speaker 02

  Apparently.

• 3:02:43Jocko Willink?

  As was noted by McG himself.

• 3:02:45Speaker 02

  Yes, sir. Yes.

• 3:02:47Jocko Willink?

  Was it what you expected? Because you you obviously have a much heavier background in film. And so you've done this before. What surprised you about the whole thing?

• 3:02:57Speaker 02

  Well, a few things. What it takes to to to get everything going. I was impressed with how efficient it was and how it all worked together, but I think that varies from set to set. The recreation of the set was very impressive. There was a time, I don't know if you were in the same boat, Rana, where I was like, man, this is kind of cool this time of day, you know, where the sun is coming in perfect right now with the mist and like, brother, this is gonna look good on film. I remember thinking that. And then like hours passed. I'm like, bro, we better hurry up. Because when the sun starts to, you know, like, switch position or whatever, we're gonna kind of lose this look. But I'm like, whatever. These are professionals. They know what they're doing. They're gonna hurry up. They're not hurrying. They're like, hours passed. I'm like, brother, the sun is in the same exact spot.

• 3:03:40Speaker 02

  And then I realized that these were like, actually, it's not the sun. They had blocked the sun, actually. These are like actual lights.

• 3:03:46Jocko Willink?

  They had blocked the street.

• 3:03:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:03:49Jocko Willink?

  And outside, at the angle that the sun would be appropriate for that time of day that they want it to look that way. That's the sun.

• 3:03:59Speaker 01

  It felt like the sun.

• 3:04:00Speaker 02

  To me, it was the sun. It was 100%. I'm 46 years old. I know what the sun looks like. I'm not some kid who's like, gets tricked by some light or whatever, bro.

• 3:04:12Speaker 02

  But that was good. I remember one very specific time where we're filming in the in the jujitsu class and, you know, they're talking and all this stuff and, you know, me and my family, we know the Warwick Kid books. We read that thing like multiple. And so we know the lines. I know the lines or whatever. And to see real professional actors with a scene with, you know, and to see it like come to life, I remembered like getting like chicken skin.

• 3:04:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:04:38Speaker 02

  It's like, dang, man, these guys are nailing it right now. And then you look on the monitor.

• 3:04:43Speaker 01

  It looks even better, yeah.

• 3:04:44Speaker 02

  Better even. So, yeah, in the moment, you're like, man, this is such a cool production. Like, this is official. We're good. We're good to go. And then you see it on the monitor and you're like, blown away, man. Just because, yeah, it's like a whole nother, a whole nother level up, you know, as far as the production. So that was another one.

• 3:04:59Speaker 02

  And yeah, just how like, okay, so you might not know this about me, but I've been in an acting scenario before. I've been in front of the camera before, whatever, right? And you know how like

• 3:05:09Jocko Willink?

  Was this your movie?

• 3:05:10Speaker 02

  Well, many, many different times.

• 3:05:14Speaker 02

  I'm just saying here on the podcast, I know how it is when the cameras are rolling.

• 3:05:20Speaker 02

  But when you see like actual, when you see actual professional actors just doing like their thing, you're like, oh, man, there's like levels to the whole deal, you know? So that was very impressive. And yeah, yeah, from, from, um, and also too, like the, uh, the humility of like the professionals on the, on set, we'll say, like those, that was impressive as well.

• 3:05:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and they made, unfortunately, we couldn't film in the actual Victory MMA because of the fire. So we made Legacy MMA, which is a gym up there. Uh, they made it into a victory and brought all the branding in there and it's freaking amazing.

• 3:06:00Speaker 02

  That was a good take on it.

• 3:06:03Jocko Willink?

  You know, like it's impressive.

• 3:06:09Jocko Willink?

  Ava and Jude wrote me notes about you, Rana. Ava said, hey, Coach Rana, I hope you're doing great. I'm so proud of your accomplishments in jiu jitsu right now. I watch how amazing you are on Instagram. You're such an amazing coach and martial artist. I look up to you so much and I'm thinking about training in jiu jitsu when I get back home.

• 3:06:29Jocko Willink?

  All thanks to you and my incredible Warrior Kid experience. I know you're doing such great things and I really miss you. And I do hope we get the chance to train together again because I truly learned a lot from you and I had a blast. You're so inspiring and motivating with a heart of gold, which is what I hope to do for all the Noras out there through our movie Way of the Warrior Kid. See you soon, Coach. I love you and I'm so honored to know you.

• 3:06:56Jocko Willink?

  And Jude wrote this, Rana, exclamation point, exclamation point, exclamation point, X, that's four.

• 3:07:06Jocko Willink?

  And he starts off with this, you are seriously the coolest person I know. Now, I might have to talk to him about that because I mean, I guess I

• 3:07:14Speaker 01

  I think you guys met before that too.

• 3:07:16Jocko Willink?

  He said, you are seriously the coolest person I know. Your hard work and dedication to jiu jitsu is unmatched by anyone, even just being around you is empowering. Those few weeks we spent together training will never be forgotten. I started off knowing absolutely nothing about jujitsu. You not only taught me the fundamentals and showed me how to look good on camera, but you also inspired me to continue my training off camera back home in Florida. Plus, you are literally the original Warrior Kid.

• 3:07:42Speaker 01

  Period.

• 3:07:45Jocko Willink?

  Love Jude. So you got some fans from the movie. You also got some fans from the Assembly. The Echelon Front Women's Assembly. So what happened? Was it last year you went and taught jujitsu, right?

• 3:08:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, so Assembly oh one. They asked me and Katie to help with the jujitsu. We didn't, we honestly did not know how many women were going to show up to the jujitsu part. And it's the last part of the, the event too. So we were kind of like.

• 3:08:20Jocko Willink?

  So real quick, the Assembly is a women's leadership conference that's run by Jamie Cochran and the rest of the team at Echelon Front, but it's for women. And it's, we've, there's been two of them. And yeah, so it's, it's been hugely successful and everyone's having a great time. But it's, it's a, it's similar to the muster, except for the muster is coed. And Jamie wanted to create something just for women. And actually it was jujitsu that made me realize why, because I used to not understand why, same as you, I used to be like, why would you have women and men and women's costs? It's all the same.

• 3:08:58Jocko Willink?

  But there's a barrier to overcome in walking on the mat as a woman when there's a bunch of freaking sweaty dudes there. Well, it's similar thing with leadership, like, oh, they want to hear about leadership perspective, not from me, but from

• 3:09:16Speaker 01

  Other women.

• 3:09:17Jocko Willink?

  Another woman.

• 3:09:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:09:18Jocko Willink?

  Or other women. So that's essentially Jamie explained that to me. I was like, hey, Roger that, go for it. So it's been awesome, but at the muster, we do jujitsu the second night, the last night. And so Jamie's like, we'll do it too. So Katie, who works at Echelon Front is Brown Belchi, and you are going to teach jujitsu. So, but then you ended up like getting all crazy.

• 3:09:43Speaker 01

  So this is the thing, I didn't get crazy, but I was super, super excited to teach the jujitsu. But.

• 3:09:52Speaker 01

  Jamie comes up to us and said, hey, I'm just gonna ask you like how you got into jujitsu. Or whatever, what have you. Just a little intro. And the assembly was like, this was, when was that? Last year? So last year, I was like, like on my little healing journey. You know, and only, only really spoke about it, my healing journey. With like my family and my like closest friends. But then, I got this feeling inside like, I feel like if I am just like, oh, how did I get into jujitsu? My dad didn't, my dad wanted me to do it, but I didn't like it, but then I came back to it.

• 3:10:38Speaker 01

  Like it's something felt like not fully true about like being so chill about it because it wasn't that like chill of an experience back to jujitsu. And so, other people were, were like, being very vulnerable at the assembly. And I'm not, I'm not one for vulnerability. I'd never like said anything

• 3:11:05Speaker 01

  to anyone, random people especially. So, I, the night before the jujitsu, so night one of the assembly, I'm like, I'm going to at least share a little bit like more than the bare bones of like what happened about me training jujitsu. Then I started coming up with things to say and I just like lost it. Like I just cried and I went into the shower and like sobbed. Snot like coming out of my nose, like just sobbing, not even like a tear. It was just like sobbing. I was like, how am I gonna do this? How am I gonna say all this stuff and I'm not telling anyone I'm doing that? So it's just gonna be kind of like.

• 3:11:47Speaker 01

  And I didn't want to cry that day, the day I did it, but I was like, it's gonna happen, like I can't. If if I'm talking about such a sub- sensitive subject, I feel like the first time I share it, like the first time those words are coming out of my mouth. It's gonna be so hard to not, like, I feel like now I feel more comfortable talking about it. But in that moment, I was like, bro, but I just felt like I wanted to share a little bit more. So that that night, I I'm like shaking, the then the day after, um. They're like, this is Rana, or like, they said, introduce yourself. I said, my name is Rana. And jujitsu and I have a very long relationship.

• 3:12:32Speaker 01

  And I just like, got very, I got more personal than like I ever had. Gotten with like random people or like someone that's not very close to me. And it felt like so amazing to share it. And there were ninety percent of the girls, it was their first time training jujitsu. I didn't want to stand up there and sort of, I think it would have been fine if I just kind of. Was like, yeah, you know, it wasn't for me and then it was, it would have been fine. It's just like, I wanted to be like. They're trying something new, like I, this is my like, I want to go try something new. And then everyone was sobbing in the crowd, by the way.

• 3:13:13Speaker 01

  Got the tear jerkers, but then after I just remember like bawling, I was like, I can't believe I did that. And it felt really good. I told my therapist and she's like, now you're like, and I got a bunch of DMs, like. You helped me so much. It was very cute. And then, or like, parents, moms. And that have daughters. And then I was like, wow, this, even though I didn't want to do it at all, and even. I didn't even want to tell my own parents about what was going on. I just was like, I, if if I can help someone.

• 3:13:51Speaker 01

  Then I guess I'll share like something that I don't want to talk about, you know? So, and now I'm here.

• 3:13:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and you almost made it through the whole podcast without crying.

• 3:14:01Speaker 01

  I know.

• 3:14:04Jocko Willink?

  Well, I know it's gonna help out a lot of people and especially even from both ends, not only from like a daughter and but also from the parents, like from my perspective and like just how things that I did and things that I didn't do that I just was just unintentionally doing stuff that wasn't the best way to handle things, you know? And so, you know, I think it'll be helpful for both ends of the spectrum. And hopefully it'll just make everyone train jujitsu.

• 3:14:35Speaker 01

  Hopefully.

• 3:14:36Jocko Willink?

  Bah.

• 3:14:39Jocko Willink?

  You've got Echo Charles over here, he's getting teared up. Come on now.

• 3:14:42Speaker 01

  And then a year later, I Jamie messaged me, he said, would you like to do an interview on the assembly, like assembly number two? And I was like, oh gosh, I already went through the first time. And then I was like, I had that same feeling of like, I, I, I went through all this and then I want to use it to like, like, I'm, I'm like, who I am today because I went through it and I would like to share to help people because I don't want to go up on like a stage and like say how I struggled. No one wants to do that. But if, if it can help someone, then like all, that's fine with me. I'll take one for the team.

• 3:15:26Jocko Willink?

  Did Jamie ask you, like, did she set you up for the same story, basically?

• 3:15:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was, it was, it was like how it was basically my relationship with like confidence and, and jujitsu and, and doing, and not even just jujitsu, just doing something that you're like, doing something for yourself that will help you.

• 3:15:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's another thing, like even when.

• 3:15:53Jocko Willink?

  You like again, from my perspective, dude, you were on fire like with confidence as a kid.

• 3:16:00Speaker 01

  I like wasn't though.

• 3:16:01Jocko Willink?

  No, I know. That's that's I'm this is a warning. This is like a, a, or at least a, yeah, it's a warning like from my perspective, dude, you I would see you in a crowd. I would see you with your friends. You were like very dynamic personality and you're a funniest kid and all that stuff. You did awesome in school, like everything was looked so awesome. And I never had any indication that you were not the most confident person imaginable. And yeah, I didn't, you know, this, I didn't know. And again, that's a warning to everybody, you know, like as much as you think you might know what's going on with your kids,

• 3:16:42Jocko Willink?

  there's going to be some things that you might have to sort of pry into a little bit or ask better questions and build a better relationship because nobody wants to, you know, nobody wants to like say what's going on or at least a lot of times people don't want to say what's what's bad.

• 3:16:58Speaker 01

  Especially if you don't think it's that bad in your head too. And it was like easy for me because I because because

• 3:17:08Speaker 01

  I was very like loud and funny in high school and it was like, that's such an easy like cover up. If you start getting quiet, then it's like, bro, what what's all what's wrong with you? And it was just, it was just like, I liked it that way. I just didn't. I I knew that if there was some other tinkering, that I wasn't gonna have like full say in in what I did. So I was just like, I'm just gonna stay like loud and no one, no one like even questioned it really. Except one time my teacher was like, girl, are you good? I was like, yeah, I'm just cutting weight. And my coach, my teacher was like, okay, let me know.

• 3:17:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And again, that's like the perfect cover up, right?

• 3:17:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course. And he was a wrestler too, my my coach, Mr. Campagnone.

• 3:17:52Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 3:17:53Speaker 01

  King.

• 3:17:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, he's awesome.

• 3:17:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, he's a great teacher.

• 3:17:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:17:58Jocko Willink?

  But yes, that's everything that you're saying. And even actually, as I was, as I was saying it, like, everything that you would, it's not like, oh, I found a freaking crack pipe in my daughter's dorm room. What's like, oh, I found a food scale in my daughter's dorm room. Well, of course you did. She's a food scientist. She's going to college and she's healthy. Like, just think about, like, it's not like I found a empty bottle of vodka crammed behind her bed. No, instead I found rice cakes. You know what I mean? And like a calor, oh, she has a, uh, what's a bad app that you could have on your phone? Like, uh, a dating app or something like, oh, my daughter has this dating app on her phone. Match.com. She's got Hinge.

• 3:18:42Jocko Willink?

  Like, there's must be something wrong. No, it's like, oh, she has a, a health food tracker.

• 3:18:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like health, yeah.

• 3:18:48Jocko Willink?

  Everything in, in that category from, from, from the surface level and even like one level, maybe even two levels deep is all good to go. It's all good to go. And that's just a bizarre thing. Even like, oh, your daughter's, your daughter's really exercising a lot. Of course she is. Yeah, hell yeah. Hell yeah, she is. Of course she is. It's my daughter.

• 3:19:13Speaker 01

  And that's totally fine to exercise a lot.

• 3:19:15Jocko Willink?

  But you can make it psycho.

• 3:19:16Speaker 01

  There's things, it's like, these things cannot, can have not a negative thing as well. It's like, if, if you, if this app, if someone wanted to lose weight in a healthy way, say they wanted to lose like half a pound a week or a quarter pound a week, and the apps gave them like

• 3:19:35Speaker 01

  some things to eat and you can scan barcodes, that's, that makes it so much easier rather than thinking, oh my God, that, that losing weight is such a hard task to do. Like, the, these things can make it easier. And if, if people need to do it, that these things can help for sure. And exercising helps. I mean, we all exercise.

• 3:19:57Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I mean, exercise makes you healthy. That's exercise is awesome.

• 3:19:59Speaker 01

  So you're not, it's, it's not like, it's just the way that it's, it's just the way that it's used.

• 3:20:06Jocko Willink?

  Um, what are your goals now? What do you got going on? What are you going to do?

• 3:20:11Speaker 01

  Um, Jiu-Jitsu World Champion.

• 3:20:16Speaker 01

  And like helping, like just teaching kids for like a very long time. I I seriously love teaching kids. It's like you can you can literally see them like transforming in front of your eyes. You think that you're teaching them. You would think that because you're teaching them some sort of like violent martial art. That it that it's gonna make them like worse or want to fight, but like that's it's so the opposite.

• 3:20:45Jocko Willink?

  One hundred percent the best.

• 3:20:46Speaker 01

  And all the kids and all the parents will tell me like my kid is like paying attention in class more. Like ever since they started training jujitsu, like they've actually been listening to us and like more disciplined and like it. It's like such an awesome transformation to watch it, especially like like kids that don't want to fight in the beginning. That don't want to do it. And then you just see them like get get so into it. I have this girl named Emma. She's six. And the first day her dad brought her and she sat she sat on the side with her dad. I came up to them. I said, do you want to fight? Do you want to try the lava game? And she said, no, no, I don't. I don't want to do. I said, okay, that's fine.

• 3:21:28Speaker 01

  She has a jujitsu page now, first of all, competes at every tournament that we do.

• 3:21:37Speaker 01

  Is so fearless, like on the mats. It's so awesome. Does all the techniques we tell her to, listening to us, helping out. Kids that are like new in the class. It's so awesome. And she didn't even want to fight in the beginning. And now she's like winning, like always winning Friday night fights, always helping out such a good kid. Such good manners. Her mom is like her parents are so grateful for it, you know? It's so awesome, but that's not even the one story. That's I mean, yeah, that's just one story. Like I have I teach a bunch of kids that have like attention issues too. And they they are like you can see in front of your eyes, like they stop getting kicked out less and less.

• 3:22:21Speaker 01

  They're like paying attention. They're like, I'll help out the new kid. It's so awesome.

• 3:22:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's a huge part of the warrior kid thing and.

• 3:22:32Jocko Willink?

  I just beg everyone to train jujitsu yourself, get your kids training jujitsu. Just, it's just gonna, it's so helpful for every aspect of your life. It just, it's just so good for you. And you gotta be careful because you can do what I did. I knew that very thing with my own kids and I freaking blew it.

• 3:22:54Speaker 01

  You didn't know it though?

• 3:22:55Jocko Willink?

  I, I, the cool thing is now all my kids train. But I blew it for a while. I could have done it better. Let's say that.

• 3:23:03Speaker 01

  Everyone has their own path.

• 3:23:04Jocko Willink?

  Yep. As, as, as we said, when you got your blue belt, everybody, it's best if they have their own path.

• 3:23:10Speaker 01

  It's not your path.

• 3:23:11Jocko Willink?

  And not just in jujitsu and everything in life. But putting the crumbs out on the trail so they can find them is the best way to do it. Don't push them down the path. Don't shove them down the path. Don't cut off every other option besides the thing that you want. Put the crumbs out there. Let them see what it feels like. Let them, let them understand it. Explain the why to them. And, and you're gonna get your kid to be in a much better spot. And, and look, there's a bunch of other, you know, all activities and, and, and one of my friends, Scott, you know, he's always said, he, when we, when our, all of you guys were younger, he was like, I just want my kid to be in this, I want my kids to be into something.

• 3:23:53Jocko Willink?

  Whether it's surfing, whether it's playing guitar, whether it's volleyball, basketball, football, just being into something is, is awesome. And support them and, and enable that as much as you can. And if that thing happens to be jujitsu.

• 3:24:13Speaker 01

  Hey, whatever happens happens.

• 3:24:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, then that'll be really beneficial. And even if it's not, if they train once a week, you know, you know, if they're training once a week, they're getting in there. You'd be shocked, shocked at how much people, how much kids absorb once a week. Over a two-year period, over a three-year period, they're going in there once a week, once on Saturdays. And by the way, they're gonna win in a little bullying fight. If they get attacked by some other eight-year-old and they've been training jujitsu once a week for four months, they're winning, which is crazy. But they're winning. They don't have to worry about it. So, um, those things are awesome. You're also, you're doing, you're going on the speaker circuit too, right? Cause aren't you speaking at Gabriel, uh, Dr. Gabriel Lyons event?

• 3:24:58Speaker 01

  She asked me, she asked me to speak.

• 3:25:00Jocko Willink?

  What are you gonna speak about?

• 3:25:01Speaker 01

  Um, probably, it, it's in April, so it's pretty far away. But just about jujitsu and exercise and things like that.

• 3:25:11Jocko Willink?

  Right on. Awesome. So Echo Charles, you got anything else? I noticed you a couple of times I was looking over, you know, you got kids.

• 3:25:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's true.

• 3:25:19Jocko Willink?

  You look like you were thinking about, you know, what it's like having kids and hopefully you learned some, from some of the mistakes that I made.

• 3:25:27Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. I think, well, I think watching you guys grow up, um, it mirrored, especially you, you mirror a lot of what my daughter goes through. Cause she's like stronger than her peers and stuff. Um, but yeah, it kinda, it kinda provides like a good, kinda like a track, like a path, you know, something that I think that, um, we all can kinda hold on to. Cause it's easy to compare ourselves like to other people, you know? Um, but I think a lot of times that's a mistake, but yeah, it was cool to, to know you and to see you grow up into, to who you are today.

• 3:26:03Speaker 01

  Thanks.

• 3:26:03Jocko Willink?

  It, it's interesting cause you've been, you've known all my kids since they were little tiny kids.

• 3:26:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, like baby kind.

• 3:26:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I think maybe, I think maybe you knew when we opened Victory,

• 3:26:18Jocko Willink?

  I think that was, that was like nineteen, or sorry, two thousand, and it was two thousand and eight, but two thousand and seven, we were, we were training here.

• 3:26:27Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 3:26:27Jocko Willink?

  For like four months. So it was two thousand and seven. And then we officially opened to the public in two thousand and eight. So how old were you in two thousand and eight? Like?

• 3:26:36Speaker 01

  Seven.

• 3:26:37Jocko Willink?

  Dude, so yeah, my son was five.

• 3:26:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:26:41Jocko Willink?

  Your older sister Freya was nine. So that's like,

• 3:26:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:26:45Jocko Willink?

  You've, I mean, a five year old is a little kid.

• 3:26:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:26:48Jocko Willink?

  A seven year old is a little kid.

• 3:26:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, like kid, kid.

• 3:26:52Jocko Willink?

  And it must've been weird for you because you didn't have kids yet.

• 3:26:55Speaker 02

  No.

• 3:26:55Jocko Willink?

  So you're just like looking at these freaking feral creatures.

• 3:27:00Speaker 02

  Well, it's funny, we were at Tim's house. You know that picture? I think I sent it to all you guys.

• 3:27:05Jocko Willink?

  Timbo?

• 3:27:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, Timbo Mania. In fact, I think it was.

• 3:27:08Jocko Willink?

  It was actual Timbo Mania?

• 3:27:09Speaker 02

  Yeah. And it's all you guys in the jacuzzi with my brother. And yeah, you guys are like little kids. Yes, it was funny. But yeah, it's funny. And the next time I saw you was a picture that Jocko sent of you like after you won a wrestling tournament, you're all like buff. I'm like, I don't remember this daughter, you know, like this. And you kind of connect the dots. I was like, wow, man. Yeah, it's crazy. But yeah, good job. Good job, Hannah.

• 3:27:33Speaker 01

  Thanks.

• 3:27:34Speaker 02

  Get you.

• 3:27:35Jocko Willink?

  All right, well, I guess um, you want to thank probably Victory and Legion and Origin and Jocko Fuel.

• 3:27:43Speaker 01

  Sure. Yeah, I do. I do.

• 3:27:46Jocko Willink?

  What else? Does that get us up to speed? Where can people find you? Ran, at Ran and Willink?

• 3:27:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, at Ran and Willink on Instagram. I post a lot of jujitsu. And yeah.

• 3:27:56Jocko Willink?

  And speaking of Molk.

• 3:27:59Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 3:28:00Jocko Willink?

  Echo Charles, are you on the Molk Train?

• 3:28:02Speaker 02

  Of course. Yes, sir. I'm very much.

• 3:28:03Jocko Willink?

  You have your road work today?

• 3:28:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, of course. Yes.

• 3:28:08Jocko Willink?

  Molk Train, that's protein which you need. You know what else you need? Joint Warfare? You know what else you need? Supercrow.

• 3:28:18Jocko Willink?

  Greens.

• 3:28:21Jocko Willink?

  Go. How many goes do you drink a day, Rana?

• 3:28:24Speaker 01

  One.

• 3:28:25Jocko Willink?

  One?

• 3:28:25Speaker 01

  One if, if that.

• 3:28:28Jocko Willink?

  Before what class?

• 3:28:30Speaker 01

  J-Flow.

• 3:28:32Speaker 01

  Just, yeah, or before I teach the kids, just depends. I won't drink too in one day.

• 3:28:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:28:37Speaker 01

  But I don't drink coffee or anything like that.

• 3:28:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Um, if you want this stuff that's going to help you throughout your journey, go to jockofuel.com.

• 3:28:45Speaker 01

  Hi, Journey.

• 3:28:45Jocko Willink?

  Hi, Journey.

• 3:28:46Speaker 01

  Hi, Healing Journey.

• 3:28:47Jocko Willink?

  Hi, Healing Journey. If you need stuff to help propel you down the healing journey, we got the stuff that you need. Jockofuel.com. We're, we got, we got the 434 tour going on. We're going to be in Bentonville, Arkansas. Saturday, October 26th. So if you want to come by for that, if you want any of this stuff, like I said, you can go to jockofuel.com. You can go to Walmart, you can go to Wawa, Vitamin Shop, GNC, Military Commissaries, AFE's, Hannaford Dash Stores in Maryland, Wakeford, ShopRite, HEB, down in Tejas, Meyer up in the Midwest, Wegmans. I just had someone tell me that they buy out Wegmans like once a week. They're sitting there getting it. I was like, outstanding. Harris Teeter, Lifetime Fitness, Shields, and we're, we're getting into more and more places.

• 3:29:32Jocko Willink?

  Small gyms, we're in Jiu Jitsu gyms all over the place, Legion, Victory, we're going into Otto's.

• 3:29:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So just if you got a Jiu Jitsu school, you got a CrossFit gym, uh, [email protected]. Hit us up and we can get you the goods that you need. Also, on your, um, healing journey of Jiu Jitsu. Guess what you're gonna need, Ekal Charles?

• 3:29:56Speaker 02

  What?

• 3:29:56Speaker 01

  It wasn't a healing journey of Jiu Jitsu. It was just like healing journey of myself. Jiu Jitsu.

• 3:30:02Speaker 02

  Was part of the.

• 3:30:02Jocko Willink?

  But Jiu Jitsu was part of the healing.

• 3:30:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, it's not all of Jiu Jitsu. It's of random willing.

• 3:30:07Jocko Willink?

  I'm gonna say, okay.

• 3:30:09Speaker 01

  Well, we won't give Jiu Jitsu too much credit.

• 3:30:11Jocko Willink?

  Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

• 3:30:15Speaker 01

  I give it a lot of credit, I said.

• 3:30:16Jocko Willink?

  I heard you say something the other day. You were like, I do not, I think, you said, I do not know where I'd be in my life right now without that Jiu Jitsu boha.

• 3:30:26Speaker 01

  Well, yeah.

• 3:30:27Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's like. Okay.

• 3:30:30Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 3:30:30Speaker 02

  Sorry, I'm gonna.

• 3:30:31Jocko Willink?

  She said she didn't want to give Jiu Jitsu credit.

• 3:30:32Speaker 01

  Thank you, Echo.

• 3:30:33Speaker 02

  Oh, too much credit.

• 3:30:34Speaker 01

  No, I, I, the healing, it started with a lot.

• 3:30:38Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 3:30:39Speaker 01

  But Jiu Jitsu helped me tremendously, for sure. But it doesn't have to be Jiu Jitsu.

• 3:30:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:30:44Speaker 01

  It should be Jiu Jitsu.

• 3:30:45Jocko Willink?

  It's not, Jiu Jitsu, Jiu Jitsu helps.

• 3:30:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, it does.

• 3:30:50Jocko Willink?

  Jiu Jitsu helps a lot.

• 3:30:51Speaker 01

  Think something that you're into, something that you're into.

• 3:30:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:30:54Speaker 01

  That you like to do, that takes your mind off things that is crazy. If we got a lot going on in life.

• 3:31:02Jocko Willink?

  You know, the thing about, one of the things about Jiu Jitsu is like,

• 3:31:07Jocko Willink?

  let's say you, there's other things that you can get into that you can get obsessed with that thing and you can, and when you get obsessed with that thing, it makes you obsessed with a lot of other things that are tangential to the thing.

• 3:31:19Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 3:31:20Jocko Willink?

  So instead of just being obsessed with the thing, you can be thinking about like, well, I really need, if I'm into guitar, I really need to get this amp and this app and this thing and this that and this tuner and all this stuff, right?

• 3:31:32Speaker 01

  Well, isn't that just like Jiu Jitsu gear to help you do the main thing?

• 3:31:36Jocko Willink?

  But I'm saying, like, you can only get a gi and a rash guard. There's no like.

• 3:31:42Speaker 01

  You can get a cute one from Origin.

• 3:31:44Jocko Willink?

  That's true. So, speaking of Jiu Jitsu gis, OriginUSA.com, check it out. We got made in America Jiu Jitsu gis, we got rash guards, we got jeans,

• 3:31:57Jocko Willink?

  boots.

• 3:31:58Speaker 02

  Boots, of course.

• 3:31:59Jocko Willink?

  T-shirts, joggers. We got everything that you need. Workout gear, hunt gear. We got everything that you need. And it's all made in America, so you don't have to worry about

• 3:32:13Jocko Willink?

  sending money to this nation's adversaries who are, have actual slave labor in 2024.

• 3:32:23Jocko Willink?

  We fought against slavery in the Civil War. Let's continue to fight against slavery by buying American right now. Go to originusa.com. That's what I got. Echo Charles.

• 3:32:36Speaker 02

  It's true. Oh, also, Ran, I forgot. I gotta thank you for keeping us and Jocko especially up to date with all the current terms, terminology and expressions.

• 3:32:47Speaker 01

  What's your guys' favorite?

• 3:32:52Speaker 02

  Um, that actually, that was a new one, the one that you just said when you're like, hello, Journey? Hello, Journey?

• 3:32:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:32:59Speaker 02

  Like, what does that mean? Like, kind of like, oh, that's a new one, right?

• 3:33:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's sort of like.

• 3:33:02Speaker 02

  Oh, you said that?

• 3:33:03Speaker 01

  It's sort of like, sometimes your journey, like, can be a little bit like, this is my journey. So you're like, hello, Journey, you know?

• 3:33:12Jocko Willink?

  Well, I actually, I actually sent on the family group text, said, hey, everyone, Rana's coming on the podcast. Please send Rana's vocabulary words. Cause she has her own freaking way of speaking, which she refrained from decently amount today, but maybe the next time she comes on, we'll go through the entire, because the thing that was funny was she would say these words. But then like, her friends would all say these words, and then the family would say these words. And so it was like.

• 3:33:42Speaker 01

  And even dads, even you say those words.

• 3:33:44Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah. I would, I would say these words.

• 3:33:46Speaker 01

  Eating?

• 3:33:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:33:48Speaker 02

  What, eating?

• 3:33:49Jocko Willink?

  Eating.

• 3:33:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:33:50Speaker 02

  That's one?

• 3:33:51Speaker 01

  That's one.

• 3:33:51Jocko Willink?

  See, but you guys. Did you make that up? You didn't make that up.

• 3:33:53Speaker 01

  No, I didn't make it up.

• 3:33:54Jocko Willink?

  But she's, she brings it in from popular culture.

• 3:33:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. She's like the prophet that brings it in or whatever. Like, yeah, like, and my daughter, she's 11. So she gets some of it and I kind of, you know, refine my understanding and knowledge. But I, I think this is where I get the bulk of it.

• 3:34:06Jocko Willink?

  Car. Car?

• 3:34:08Speaker 02

  Ah, see, I just hit you. Right. You can't hit me with the advanced ones too fast.

• 3:34:12Speaker 01

  That one I made up.

• 3:34:13Speaker 02

  Okay, okay.

• 3:34:13Jocko Willink?

  Oh, you, I, I, we, we need to disseminate or discern between the words that you brought into the thing.

• 3:34:19Speaker 01

  A lot of things I don't make up. It's just you guys have never heard it before. But I love when you start saying it. And I, and then my friends are like, bro. What? Did he just say period?

• 3:34:31Speaker 02

  Wait, period. So I remember one time we were, uh, recording your singing, by the way. And you, you were asking a question, then you said, question mark. You said the word question mark. So I was like, I was like, wait, is this some weird new like thing? And then I'm, then I like, thought about it for a little bit, a day, maybe two. And then I realized, is it because you, you talk to text a lot?

• 3:34:55Speaker 01

  No, I never talked to text. I think it's just like, you're saying a statement, but you're also kind of asking, you're like,

• 3:35:03Speaker 01

  I guess I'm gonna say that on the podcast, question mark?

• 3:35:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:35:06Speaker 01

  You know what I mean?

• 3:35:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:35:07Speaker 01

  Cause it's like, I guess you are saying, I guess I'm gonna say that, but also you're saying like,

• 3:35:11Jocko Willink?

  Making it clear that it's a question mark.

• 3:35:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. Like in Jiu Jitsu, if you know, if, if you're like, wait, does my hand go here? Question mark?

• 3:35:19Speaker 02

  Hmm. Wait, okay. So it's not.

• 3:35:21Speaker 01

  Cause you kind of know your hand goes there, but also you're like, you're not like, my hand goes here because you don't know. And you're asking co- like your coach.

• 3:35:28Speaker 02

  Right.

• 3:35:29Speaker 01

  And you're just like, question mark, because you don't want to be like, I know it. Periods.

• 3:35:34Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 3:35:35Speaker 01

  You're like, I don't know, question mark.

• 3:35:37Speaker 02

  Yeah. So it's not redundant. It's kind of just more specific, really.

• 3:35:40Speaker 01

  It specifies it. Yeah.

• 3:35:42Speaker 02

  Yeah. I thought, I concluded that it was like, oh no, these kids nowadays, they're on their phone texting and stuff. Sometimes they're talking and texting. And when you say, question mark, it puts a question mark there. See what I'm saying? But hey, all right. Yeah. I'm glad I know now. But, um, also, also, by the way, thanks for clarifying, by the way.

• 3:35:58Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 3:35:59Speaker 02

  If I'll be on the lookout for any new terminologies. Um, anyway, Jocko's a store. I don't know if you know this. Actually, I do know you know this because I see you representing from time to time, which I like, by the way. But it's called Jocko's store. So you go to jacostore.com. Discipline equals freedom. Rashgar's t-shirts, hats, hoodies. Mainly t-shirts. That's what, what we, I don't want to say specialize in, but we kind of specialize in t-shirts. Speaking of t-shirts, also shirt locker. It's called the shirt locker. Subscription t-shirt scenario, new design every month. Good design.

• 3:36:27Jocko Willink?

  Ren has requested certain

• 3:36:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:36:30Jocko Willink?

  ones of those from you.

• 3:36:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:36:32Jocko Willink?

  Especially toxic product. Did you make up toxic productivity?

• 3:36:34Speaker 01

  No, that's, that's my older sister.

• 3:36:36Jocko Willink?

  Freya made that up?

• 3:36:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:36:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:36:38Jocko Willink?

  She was like

• 3:36:38Speaker 01

  But it's true, it's true.

• 3:36:40Jocko Willink?

  Yes, I'm, I'm the CEO of Toxic Productivity.

• 3:36:43Speaker 01

  CEO, have you heard of CEO?

• 3:36:44Speaker 02

  CEO poster shot, oh wait, as an expression?

• 3:36:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:36:47Speaker 02

  No, no, no.

• 3:36:48Speaker 01

  Like, oh, if we're talking about something, you say, I'm the CEO of the company, like, trust me, I know, you know? Like Toxic Productivity, have you heard of it? Dad would be like, I'm the CEO of the company, you know what I mean?

• 3:36:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, okay, good, good.

• 3:37:02Jocko Willink?

  Which in this case, I guess I am.

• 3:37:04Speaker 01

  But also, everyone must get stunned, I requested that shirt, but I can't really wear it anywhere.

• 3:37:07Jocko Willink?

  How come?

• 3:37:08Speaker 01

  Just like, if you, I don't know.

• 3:37:10Speaker 02

  Might be too much for some environment.

• 3:37:12Jocko Willink?

  There are some people that didn't, that were against that shirt.

• 3:37:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:37:15Speaker 01

  But, because I heard the story about it, I was like, I want that shirt.

• 3:37:18Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:37:20Speaker 02

  What about this one, Ren?

• 3:37:22Jocko Willink?

  That is a cool shirt.

• 3:37:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's pretty cool.

• 3:37:24Speaker 02

  It's not Shirt Locker, this is, this is a

• 3:37:26Jocko Willink?

  It's available, so Jiggle's Life t-shirt, you got the Defcore flag flying boldly and aggressively there.

• 3:37:32Speaker 02

  Very aggressively, yeah.

• 3:37:33Jocko Willink?

  You have four stripes on your black belch in that particular thing.

• 3:37:36Speaker 02

  No, actually, this is the empty space, so it represents any belt that you may have, see what I'm saying? That's the symbolism, the layers behind it.

• 3:37:43Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 3:37:44Speaker 02

  Nonetheless, Shirt Locker is a little bit outside the box designs.

• 3:37:46Jocko Willink?

  Mm-hmm.

• 3:37:47Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 3:37:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's good fun, people seem to like it. There was one guy representing at the muster with the, it was the Snickers, uh,

• 3:37:55Speaker 01

  I saw that.

• 3:37:56Speaker 02

  Did you see that one?

• 3:37:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:37:57Jocko Willink?

  I signed

• 3:37:57Speaker 01

  It said discipline on it?

• 3:37:59Speaker 02

  And freedom on the back.

• 3:38:00Speaker 01

  Ah.

• 3:38:01Jocko Willink?

  I signed a Toxic Productivity t-shirt at the muster.

• 3:38:05Speaker 02

  Perfect.

• 3:38:06Speaker 01

  I love that shirt.

• 3:38:06Jocko Willink?

  So, there you go.

• 3:38:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, jocko store dot com, that's where it is.

• 3:38:09Jocko Willink?

  There you go, um, also, Rana eats steak. She gets her steak from primalbeef dot com and colorado craft beef dot com. If you want to get the best steak, go to those websites and get some. Also subscribe to the podcast, also Jocko Underground, we're about to record one of those right now. Uh, YouTube channels, what is there, Origin USA, there's Jocko Fuel, and there's Jocko Podcast. Check those out.

• 3:38:37Speaker 02

  And clips.

• 3:38:38Jocko Willink?

  Oh, and there's Jocko Podcast clips.

• 3:38:40Speaker 01

  Do you run that?

• 3:38:41Speaker 02

  It's a good one, let's say we collectively run it together, for sure.

• 3:38:45Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 3:38:48Jocko Willink?

  Okay, bro. I've written a bunch of books. So if you want to get those books, check them out. If you want to, look, there's a movie coming out. It's called Way of the Warrior Kid, directed by McG. Starring a guy named Chris Pratt. Goodness. Also featuring Rana Willink, Echo Charles. And Jocko Willink. And me, as a matter of fact, we're featured, isn't it? So you may want to be on the lookout for that. But I'll tell you what, get the books. The movie's not going to come out for a bit. So you want to introduce jujitsu to your kids in a real powerful way? Get the books. Way of the Warrior Kid. You want to get your, introduce your kids to working out in a real positive way? Get the books. You want to introduce

• 3:39:32Jocko Willink?

  your kids to healthy eating? Get the books. They don't need to be eating junk food. Now, do they need a freaking scale? No, they don't need to weigh their food. There's nothing, no mentions. So check those out. Also, Echelon Front, we solve problems through leadership. We have a leadership consultancy. We just heard about the, the Women's Assembly. We just got done with the muster down in Dallas. It was sold out. We, it was freaking epic. The next one is in San Diego. San Diego. February 23rd through the 25th. These things sell out.

• 3:40:10Jocko Willink?

  They have all sold out and they all will sell out. So if you want to go, register ASAP, come to San Diego and check it out. That's going to be February 23rd through 25th. And after that is San Antonio. I think that's April 29th through May 1st. So there you go. FTX, Council, Battlefield, we have a bunch of things going on. If you want our help with your leadership, go to echelonfront.com. We also have online training academy. Have you spoken on one of those yet? No. Jamie's gonna have you speak on the women's one because there's a women's one. So check it out. We have an online training academy. Go to extremeownership.com. These principles that we teach, we do it on courses. We also are live on there and it has helped so many people square away their business and their life.

• 3:40:55Jocko Willink?

  Check it out, extremeownership.com. If you want to help service members, active and retired, you want to help their families, want to help Gold Star families, check out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee. She's got an amazing charity organization. If you want to donate or you want to get involved, go to AmericasMightyWarriors.org. Also, Micah Fink.

• 3:41:12Jocko Willink?

  I guess latest report, he was fishing with a stick. And he stabbed a salmon, pulled it out of the river. He's eating it right now, riverside, watching the sunset. He helps our veterans find themselves by taking them up into the wilderness. Heroes and horses.org. Also Jimmy May's organization, Beyond the Brotherhood, helping seals after they get out, transition into the civilian sector. If you want to connect with us on the interwebs, jocko.com. Also on social media, Rana is at Rana Willink.

• 3:41:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:41:49Jocko Willink?

  You're on the Gram.

• 3:41:50Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 3:41:51Jocko Willink?

  Anywhere else?

• 3:41:52Speaker 01

  No.

• 3:41:53Jocko Willink?

  Twitter?

• 3:41:54Speaker 01

  Nah.

• 3:41:55Jocko Willink?

  X?

• 3:41:57Speaker 01

  No.

• 3:41:58Jocko Willink?

  Um.

• 3:42:03Jocko Willink?

  I'm at Jocko Willink. Echo is at Echo Charles. Just be careful. Cause there's an algorithm that will choke you, put you to sleep. You won't even know it. Echo Charles, any final questions for Rana?

• 3:42:18Speaker 02

  Nope, that was it. Good to see you, sister.

• 3:42:22Jocko Willink?

  Do you roll with Rana?

• 3:42:23Speaker 02

  Have I ever rolled with Rana?

• 3:42:25Jocko Willink?

  You know.

• 3:42:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, plenty of times.

• 3:42:26Jocko Willink?

  How's that make you feel?

• 3:42:27Speaker 02

  Well, I'm very happy that she's in jujitsu. We'll put it that way. I'm very happy she's on our team. We'll put it that way. I know. I'm glad that you are who you are.

• 3:42:35Jocko Willink?

  Have you panicked rolling with Rana?

• 3:42:36Speaker 02

  Panicked? I can't say that I've panicked.

• 3:42:39Jocko Willink?

  Have you, have you, you say this to me sometimes?

• 3:42:43Speaker 02

  The answer is yes.

• 3:42:44Jocko Willink?

  What's the word you say to me?

• 3:42:45Speaker 02

  Sense of urgency.

• 3:42:45Jocko Willink?

  Have you felt a sense of urgency with Rana Willink?

• 3:42:47Speaker 02

  Yes, various times. So actually, I'll even tell you where, and I said this at the camp when I was teaching. Oh, yeah, yeah. I used you as the example. So there's a move, Jocko, or not Jocko, Dean calls it the, the punk sweeper. I don't know, something like this where it's like, it's a thing where you essentially put the back, put the, push the back of a guy's arm when they do this thing or whatever.

• 3:43:07Speaker 01

  Stiff arm on the armpit.

• 3:43:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, like behind the tricep kind of, and you kind of can get up and get out of side control. It's a very effective move. Big guy, small guy, whatever. And I didn't even remember it because it happens like pretty rare, but the time that it always happens is with Hannah. So it's the one thing you gotta watch out for. And I know this that you gotta watch out for this because I almost got got with it a few times.

• 3:43:29Jocko Willink?

  Almost got got.

• 3:43:30Speaker 02

  And those were the times that I experienced that sense of urgency that I sometimes talk about. Yes.

• 3:43:35Jocko Willink?

  All right. Rana Willink, any closing thoughts from you?

• 3:43:39Speaker 01

  No. Thanks for having me on. That was very fun.

• 3:43:42Jocko Willink?

  Very fun. Um, well, thank you for coming on and thank you for sharing your stories and your lessons. And thank you for being such a great person and such a wonderful daughter. And you're not only inspiring to a bunch of men and women and kids around the world, you're also inspiring to me.

• 3:44:01Speaker 01

  Thanks, Pat.

• 3:44:04Jocko Willink?

  Also, thanks to all our military personnel around the world. We know that you make sacrifices to keep us safe during peacetime and during war. So thank you for protecting us and our way of life. And also thanks to police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, border patrol, secret service, as well as all other first responders. We know that you sacrifice greatly for us as well. And we thank you for it. And to everyone else out there.

• 3:44:33Jocko Willink?

  Trust, listen, respect, influence, and care. This is how you build relationships with people. You give them those things. And this not only includes the people you work with, does, you know, not only includes your peers, it not only includes your subordinates, it not only includes your boss, most important, it includes your family. So give those things to them. And of course, go train jiu-jitsu with them too. Until next time, this is Rana, and Echo, and Jocko, out.