446: Using Asymmetric Warfare To Even The Odds In Competition

What do we do when we are outmatched, outgunned, out-resourced? When there is an imbalance in power in competition, war, relationships, and life. Defining Asymmetric Warfare. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 446 with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening. So what are we supposed to do when we are outmatched or outgunned or out-resourced?

• 0:17Jocko Willink?

  So there's, there's an imbalance in warfare. That means there's an imbalance of resources or an imbalance of technology or an imbalance in the number of people we have or any number of things. There's any number of things that could be unbalanced.

• 0:36Jocko Willink?

  And so if we're going to war and we're disadvantaged or there's some kind of imbalance, we have to do something to overcome that. And that something is known as asymmetric warfare.

• 0:50Jocko Willink?

  So asymmetric warfare is a term that's been through a pretty decent variety of definitional, definitional changes over the last few years. But it's a concept, it's a concept that's important for us to understand because

• 1:08Jocko Willink?

  it applies not only to combat, but it also applies, of course, to business, to life, to relationships, to leadership. And what's interesting is if you're an American and you're listening to this show, you might not, you'll, you'll, you'll relate to this. As Americans, we learn a lot about asymmetric warfare as children. Because as children, we learn about what we call the Revolutionary War, right? That's what we call it. The British call it something else. The British call it, you know, a revolt from the colonies. They, they have it, my wife's a Brit, they call it something different. But when I was a kid, we learned these things. This was asymmetric warfare.

• 1:52Jocko Willink?

  The British had all the proper weapons. They had all the proper uniform. They had all the proper ships. They had all the proper military regalia.

• 2:01Jocko Willink?

  And we didn't have any of that. But guess what else they did? They stood up in lines, in ranks. And what did we do as Americans? Asymmetric warfare, we hid behind trees and we hid behind stone walls and we used the terrain.

• 2:18Jocko Willink?

  To our advantage, whereas the Brits would line up on a field. They'd say, hey, you want to fight me? Cool. I'll bring my army, you bring your army, we'll meet tomorrow at this time on this field. And we'll shoot at each other until one of us gives up. We're like, oh, we're not going to meet you on that field. We're going to be over here in this river. You can go to that field, but we're going to be over in this ravine. We're going to be up on this knoll. We're going to do urban combat. We did urban combat. We, we use the buildings in port cities to, to shoot at, at their merchant vessels. And their ships. And then we use little, small kind of fast boats to attack them.

• 2:58Jocko Willink?

  John Paul Jones.

• 3:01Jocko Willink?

  He conducted a raid in England. That was kind of just for psychological warfare. That's what he did. It was, it was letting the locals, letting the British know that we could hit them. Psychological warfare. It wasn't like we were going to invade them and take over England. We didn't have the capability of doing that, but we could go rough them up a little bit. You know what I'm saying? That's asymmetric warfare. We had local militias that were running around and harassing British forces and disrupting their supply lines. That's asymmetric warfare.

• 3:33Jocko Willink?

  We use the terrain. You know, we had this vast. Open terrain, just woods and mountains, right? And we'd go hide our forces in there. And it made it really difficult for the Brits to control what we were doing. And we eventually won. And this is asymmetric warfare. And there's been a lot of warfare like this over the years. It's, this is, this is, and we'll get, we'll kind of talk about this. Warfare is this, right? Warfare is asymmetric warfare if you play it right. And we'll talk about MMA because there's MMA comparisons, obviously too. If you're a boxer, and I'm not a boxer, I'm not going to box you and we'll get to that. But the asymmetric warfare has been going on for a long time.

• 4:18Jocko Willink?

  The Arab revolt. 1916 to 1918. You ever heard of Lawrence of Arabia?

• 4:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So he kind of made that famous TE Lawrence. He made that, that rebellion famous, but it was guerrilla tactics. Used by the Arab rebels against a much more powerful Ottoman empire. That's what they did. And they won. I mean, we, yes, they did win. The Arab rebels won, they captured Damascus, they declared their own kingdom.

• 4:47Jocko Willink?

  The European powers didn't uphold their part of the bargain and that's caused problems to this day. They divided the region between the UK and France, but that, but the, the actual war itself, Arab rebels were able to achieve victory. They captured Damascus and declared their own kingdom. That's a win. That's a W. The French Indo-China War, 1946 to 1954, the, it was a Viet Minh insurgency against the French. And how did they do it? Did they, did they say, oh yeah, you want to fight? Okay. We'll put our army against your army? No, it was ambushes. It was indirect fire. It was blending in with the local populace. That's what the primary effort was. Now, what's interesting about this war is there

• 5:31Jocko Willink?

  were some more conventional operations, like conventional force battles, but it was made possible by these guerrilla missions. And it was, you know, this, this war, the French Indo-China War culminated in the Battle of Denbien-Fu, which is, everybody knows about this battle, but 13,000 French were surrounded by 50,000 Viet Minh. This is this, this was the end of that war. They had anti-aircraft weapons to keep the air support out. They had the high ground, meaning the Viet Minh had the high ground, the Viet Minh had anti-aircraft weapons. French were defeated. 2,200 killed, 1,600 missing, 5,000 wounded, less than

• 6:14Jocko Willink?

  100 escaped capture. And again, this was a major European nation against these rebels, these insurgents. And the rebels were just getting warmed up against the French because the, the French also had to fight the Algerian War of Independence, 1954 to 1962. Again, hit and run attacks, ambushes, sabotage, bombings, assassinations, terrorism against the French and against French collaborators. So, and, and eventually the French left Algiers. So,

• 6:53Jocko Willink?

  so oftentimes, when prosecuted correctly, asymmetric warfare, the less powerful element can achieve victory.

• 7:05Jocko Willink?

  Now, they don't always work. They don't always work. These types of insurgencies are not guaranteed to work. The Philippine American War, 1899 to 1902.

• 7:19Jocko Willink?

  Now, look, the US used brutal horrific tactics to smash the rebels. They burned villages, they did indiscriminate killings, they tortured.

• 7:33Jocko Willink?

  They did reprisal operations, which are very scary. Brigadier General Jacob Smith ordered troops, ordered his troops to kill everyone over the age of 10 in retaliation for a previous massacre of US troops.

• 7:54Jocko Willink?

  Here's his order. "I want no prisoners. I wish you to kill and burn. The more you kill and burn, the better it will please me. I want all persons killed who are capable of bearing arms in actual hostilities against the United States."

• 8:11Jocko Willink?

  Never heard that order before, have you?

• 8:13Speaker 01

  No.

• 8:14Jocko Willink?

  That's, that's, "I want no prisoners. I wish you to kill and burn. The more you kill and burn, the better it will please me.

• 8:24Jocko Willink?

  I want all persons killed who are capable of bearing arms in actual hostilities against the United States." And he was asked the question, "Hey, who do you consider? Well, what do you mean by capable of bearing arms?" And he said, "10 years or older."

• 8:41Speaker 01

  And when was this?

• 8:42Jocko Willink?

  1899 to 1902.

• 8:45Speaker 01

  And then reprisal, that's...

• 8:48Jocko Willink?

  That's, that's like, "Oh, someone, we, we patrolled through your village and one of our guys stepped on a, a bomb or a booby trap? So we go kill everyone in the village."

• 8:57Speaker 01

  Oh, is that like, like revenge kind of a thing?

• 9:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, like punitive reprisal.

• 9:02Speaker 01

  Okay, reprisal, got it.

• 9:04Jocko Willink?

  You could use the term punitive raids, you could use reprisal raids, even what you just said, revenge.

• 9:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 9:09Jocko Willink?

  Right? Revenge is... Reprisals probably the cleaned up euphemism that the military, we conducted a reprisal raid. Instead of just being, hey, we conducted a revenge raid.

• 9:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. In the, what do you call in the, in the streets where they call it justice?

• 9:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 9:24Speaker 01

  They'll say it's justice, but it's like.

• 9:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, we actually revered revenge.

• 9:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 9:29Jocko Willink?

  Or avenge someone's loss. Now, even in that situation, Major Littleton Waller,

• 9:35Jocko Willink?

  the guy that actually took the action, he didn't obey this order. Prisoners were taken. But between 2,000 and 5,000 were killed. So, General Smith was eventually court martialed. Uh, and, and when he got court martialed, his only punishment was, basically he was forced to retire.

• 9:56Jocko Willink?

  And people were kind of up in arms about this. But he didn't really, he didn't really care. He was like, I did the right thing. So he had that kind of attitude. He, he only got forced into retirement for ordering that? I mean, that's, that's crazy. He tried to volunteer for World War I. Cause you know, this, that war ended in 1902. So you figure what, 15 or 16, 17 years later, World War I kicks off, he volunteers, he, he gets told no. Until the, you know, throughout the rest of his life, he spoke about this and, hey, this is what you gotta do. We got it handled.

• 10:31Jocko Willink?

  So,

• 10:33Jocko Willink?

  but my point in kind of going off on that story a little bit was that the rebels, the insurgency in the Philippines was shut down. Same thing with the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka. 1983 to 2009, I was adjacently involved in that because I went and helped train the government forces. Long and bloody conflict. Lots of terrible things happened. Suicide bombers from the Tamil Tigers. Definitely very aggressive efforts from the Sri Lankan government.

• 11:09Jocko Willink?

  And they were able to suppress that insurgency. Ended in 2009.

• 11:15Jocko Willink?

  The Dofar Rebellion in Oman, 1963 to 1976.

• 11:22Jocko Willink?

  Again, this is the Dofar Province. They had the Dofar Liberation Front. There was guerrilla attacks. There was assassinations and assassination attempts. They attacked oil installations. They attacked government posts. Eventually, the Brits came in and helped out. The SAS conducted some serious operations, but they did a bunch of other things, too. The government did. They offered amnesty to the rebels. They did these big civil projects. This is where you start seeing hearts and minds type situations because you realize, hey, it's easier and better to open your mind, bring these people on board, try and understand what their frustrations are, try and work through their frustrations, and you can end up in a better situation. Then that's what they did. They supported tribal militias.

• 12:06Jocko Willink?

  And now you give the locals some little bit more power against the against the insurgents. Pretty positive thing. And plus, they got supported, like I said, they got supported by the Brits. They eventually got supported by Saudi Arabia and Jordan and Abu Dhabi and Iran. They all supported the Omane government. But they were able to shut down that insurgency.

• 12:28Jocko Willink?

  And by the way, I'm calling it an insurgency, but the topic here is asymmetric warfare. So you had these this asymmetric situation where you have these rebels that don't have the power, don't have the resources, but they're able to make an effort to overcome a stronger, more powerful government. Greek Civil War, 1946 to 1949.

• 12:51Jocko Willink?

  Fundamentally, we're talking about communist versus anti-communist forces. And this was a this was a bloody, bloody war. 24,000 casualties for the communists, 48,000 casualties for the government forces. With civilian deaths, it's like 150,000 total.

• 13:12Jocko Willink?

  Starvation disease, the US government win and supported, we provided advisors, we provided weapons, and the communists were eventually defeated.

• 13:25Jocko Willink?

  So, my point in bringing up all these different examples is that asymmetric wars can be fought, they can be won, they can also be lost.

• 13:35Jocko Willink?

  But it's, I think it's important, and what kind of has got me off on this path of wanting to cover this is, like all warfare, it's a way of thinking.

• 13:46Jocko Willink?

  And it really is as old as war itself. We want to attack our enemies' weaknesses, and if we can do that effectively, we're gonna win.

• 13:58Jocko Willink?

  Now, this means that we have to pay attention, we have to look for, we have to find the imbalance. We have to find the asymmetry. So, the real obvious example, especially from you, you and I, with our backgrounds in the, in the MMA game, in fighting, I already mentioned this briefly, if you're a boxer,

• 14:20Jocko Willink?

  and I'm a jiu-jitsu guy, I'm not gonna box you.

• 14:24Jocko Willink?

  If I'm a jiu-jitsu guy and you're a Muay Thai guy, I'm not gonna do Muay Thai against you, I am going to do jiu-jitsu.

• 14:32Jocko Willink?

  What's interesting, and I was thinking about this, jiu-jitsu counters a lot of power imbalances. Just jiu-jitsu itself, because grappling is a way to overcome striking, just in general. Like, if you're a really good striker, I don't have to be a better striker than you. If I'm a better grappler, I'm gonna, I'm gonna be better off.

• 14:58Jocko Willink?

  Jiu-jitsu actually is a counter to wrestling, because if someone's a really good wrestler, and you know jiu-jitsu, they, well, this is of course, you know, going to like the pure... Right. Because if they know jiu-jitsu, and you know jiu-jitsu, and they're a better wrestler, they're probably gonna beat you. But if they don't know anything, you can arm lock them, you can guillotine them, this is the, all the early UFC's proved this over and over again, and... But jiu-jitsu's a counter to wrestling, if you think about it that way. Jiu-jitsu's a counter to Muay Thai, if you think about it that, that way. Jiu-jitsu's a counter to boxing.

• 15:31Jocko Willink?

  This is where I really started thinking about it. Jiu-jitsu is also a counter to superior strength, superior speed, and superior athleticism.

• 15:41Jocko Willink?

  Right? Like it doesn't matter. If someone doesn't know jiu jitsu, they can be bigger, stronger, more athletic, and somebody that's less strong, less athletic, less fast can absolutely beat them. So jiu jitsu is this really good asymmetric tool to have in your, in your, in your toolbox.

• 16:04Jocko Willink?

  We see this in fights where a boxer, or someone that's not a boxer will go against someone that is a boxer and they'll try and box and they're gonna lose. Or someone that's a wrestler, but they're not as good as another wrestler and they'll try and out wrestle and they get out wrestled.

• 16:20Jocko Willink?

  There's, there's countless examples of this. A smart, a smart player, you can also watch that. When you watch,

• 16:32Jocko Willink?

  Adesanya versus Yan. Yan just took him down. Like, why is Yan gonna stand there and try and strike with, with Adesanya? He's not. He's gonna take him down and control him. There's countless examples like that in the MMA world. And what that really means is, there's an asymmetric undercurrent of the fight.

• 16:56Jocko Willink?

  And so they decide, I'm not gonna play that game.

• 17:00Jocko Willink?

  That's really, that's really a good way of thinking about asymmetric warfare is, I'm not gonna play the game that you want me to play.

• 17:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:06Jocko Willink?

  I'm just not gonna do it.

• 17:11Jocko Willink?

  Remember Jeremy Stephens versus Dos Anjos?

• 17:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:15Jocko Willink?

  So this was, I think this was the first time I ever had anything to do with Jeremy. Like, he'd just come out here to San Diego and he was learning. He was an actual white belt in jiu jitsu. And, and I'm not, I don't mean that by saying, oh, he only had his white belt, meaning he was more advanced than that, but he had never been, you know, promoted for what, no, no, no, no. I mean, he, I trained with him. He was an actual white belt. He did not know very much at all about jiu jitsu. Now, he wrestled in high school and a brother's from Iowa. So, you know, it's, he definitely had that going for him. So his wrestling was good, but he didn't know.

• 17:55Jocko Willink?

  Jiu Jitsu. I mean, he just did not know it. And he went into that fight and going into that fight, he had to stay standing with that guy because Dos Anios, the black belt in Jiu Jitsu. And I trained with, I trained with Jeremy and we'd put small guys, his size, that was a blue belt or a purple belt, they'd catch Jeremy. If they were just doing Jiu Jitsu. Luckily Jeremy's an animal, with his fists. But I got Jeremy so freaking paranoid about going to the ground. Cause here he is getting tapped out by, he's like a random blue belt, right? He knew he couldn't handle this dude on the ground. And he was so freaking prepared to not be on the ground.

• 18:38Jocko Willink?

  He just went full asymmetric warfare. I am not going to play that game with you. I, I was like, hey, bro, when, if he gets a takedown on you, while you're going down, be getting back up. Don't even wait till you get to the ground. You have to be getting back up and you go watch that fight, you can see he was, I don't want to use the word terrified or petrified because it makes it seem like Jeremy Stevens is like a type of dude that's scared because he's not. But he was definitely not willing to go to the ground with Dos Anios.

• 19:08Speaker 01

  He was focused on staying up.

• 19:09Jocko Willink?

  He was very focused on staying up. He might not have been scared, but he was not going to be down there. And by the way, just if you don't know the outcome of this fight, third round, Jeremy hits him with a, one of the all time mega uppercuts in the UF, history of the UFC. Like it is a death blow. But this is after he avoided two and a half rounds of the guy trying to take him down. And Dos Anios is an incredible fighter. I mean, he's became champion. And so, but it was asymmetric warfare. Jeremy did not play the game that Dos Anios wanted him to play. He wanted him to do mixed martial arts. Part of mixed martial arts is Jiu Jitsu. Jeremy didn't

• 19:51Jocko Willink?

  know Jiu Jitsu. He didn't want to play that game. He said, I'm getting back up. And Jeremy's strong. Like, he's not just a guy, you know, they talk about his power in his fists, which he absolutely has, but he's also just a strong, strong guy for a one. That might've even been a one. No, it's 155. Yeah. So.

• 20:10Jocko Willink?

  Understanding that and going into a fight, knowing that there's a part of the game you do not want to play is very important. And how are you going to avoid that part of the game? Very important. You can see fighters that also get lured in their ego lures them in.

• 20:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:29Jocko Willink?

  And the other fighter will talk shit, trying to get the person like, oh, Echo's scared to stand with me. Right? If I was a, if I was a Muay Thai fighter and you were a grappling guy, I'd like Echo's just scared to stand. He doesn't have, he doesn't have what it takes to go toe to toe with me. He, I want to put on a good fight for the fans. Echo just wants to hug it out. Right? I try and talk smack to you, get you fired up. So where you test it like, oh, I want to test myself.

• 20:55Jocko Willink?

  And I can get your ego to work in, in my favor. Happens to generals too, right? Happens to military people. Happens, it can happen to any of us. We have to watch out for that. We have to be careful that we're not getting lured into a game that we're not prepared to play.

• 21:13Jocko Willink?

  Your ego can let you do that, but also just not being aware. And by the way, if the other opponent or competitor or business or, or adversary, if they're smart, they're trying to bring you into their game. That's what they're trying to do. You gotta find that asymmetry. This is another thing that, that John Donahue did. When, when his Donahue death squad was coming up. So if you don't know about this, this is John Donahue jujitsu. He's a jujitsu teacher and he very much popularized leg locks and lower body submissions.

• 21:59Jocko Willink?

  Because of a conversation that he had with Dean Lister, where he saw Dean, I don't know if it was at a tournament or I don't know if it was at a seminar of some kind, but Dean was just grabbing people's feet and tapping people out, which I had been watching Dean do for a long time. But when John Donahue said, he's like, hey, you know, what's the deal with all these? Why are you doing all these foot submissions and knee submissions? And Dean Lister now famously told him, why would I ignore 50% of the body? And Donahue heard that and said, well, that's a freaking good point. And so he started really looking at leg submissions. And he, he produced a bunch of students. That were very proficient in leg submissions.

• 22:40Jocko Willink?

  And what this allowed them to do is you could have someone that was a black belt with their guard, a black belt with their half guard, a black belt taking the back, a black belt with their takedowns, a black belt in every aspect of the game, but, but maybe a blue belt with their leg entanglements. And the Donahue Death Squad, which is now defunct unfortunately, but the Donahue Death Squad at the time would just get into leg entanglements. And the black belt, who's a black belt in 94 different positions. There's one that, that he's not. And the Donahue Death Squad student, who might only be a purple or a brown belt in some of these other areas, just because they hadn't been training as long,

• 23:24Jocko Willink?

  now has them in their arena. And they're gonna make, they're gonna tap them out. One of the positions that Dean Lister made famous in the Abu Dhabi Championships is something that we called the cock-a-racco, which is now very commonly called the 50-50. Meaning if you and I are in this position of the 50-50, we're in the equal position. You have a 50% chance, I have a 50% chance. Dean called that position 90-10, meaning I have a 90% advantage to your 10 because I've spent more time there. So there's an ace, there's an asymmetry of knowledge. There's an asymmetry of understanding.

• 24:05Jocko Willink?

  So this is an important thing to understand and we have to look at things and look for the imbalance. Where is there an imbalance? And where does the imbalance favor me? And where does this imbalance favor my opponent? And I was thinking about this as well. This is adjacent, in my opinion, to strategic thinking versus tactical thinking.

• 24:34Jocko Willink?

  And I'll give you an example. You and I, we're both, uh, let's say we're 25 year old men. We're both sort of competing in life and just in general, right? You're driving a nice new Cadillac.

• 24:46Speaker 01

  Oh, competing against each other?

• 24:47Jocko Willink?

  Just, just, yeah, we're just competing against you. You know, you and I live on the same street.

• 24:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 24:51Jocko Willink?

  We, yeah, we're just, we're just in competition.

• 24:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 24:55Jocko Willink?

  Maybe we knew each other in high school. We graduate from high school and we're checking each other's Facebook to see how it's going. You see what I'm saying?

• 25:01Speaker 01

  Small rivalry.

• 25:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, rivalry. Maybe you, you know, you made the squad, the football squad. I didn't.

• 25:07Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 25:07Jocko Willink?

  I've been resentful ever since. So you and I are now competing.

• 25:10Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 25:11Jocko Willink?

  Which by the way, I don't recommend this, but this is, I'm just want to give this example. So you're posting on your Facebook, yo, new Cadillac, got that Escalade, you're 25 years old. And you beat me, right? And I'm driving like an old Chevy, whatever.

• 25:26Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 25:27Jocko Willink?

  Che- Chevrolet scooter, which was the family car I had when I was growing up. Dude, this thing was a piece of crap.

• 25:34Jocko Willink?

  AM radio, no AC, but that's what I'm driving. Now, you're, you're beating me because you, maybe your job, you're making a little bit more money than me, but it doesn't really matter. You go out and you get that loan, the high interest loan, or maybe you lease the car, whatever. You're, you're doing something to get that car.

• 25:53Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 25:53Jocko Willink?

  Meanwhile, I'm over here just like, all right, I'm gonna beat him in the long run.

• 25:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:56Jocko Willink?

  See what I'm saying? I'm not gonna play this game.

• 25:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:58Jocko Willink?

  Right now.

• 25:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 26:00Jocko Willink?

  I'm gonna play the long game, which is I'm gonna save that money. I'm gonna start saving for a down payment for a house. So while you're covering your, your car payment every month, I'm not trying to compete with that. I'm not trying to get a nicer car. I'm not even playing that game. I'm over here, in real life, I was actually driving a 1997 Dodge Grand Caravan. I did this. I wasn't really competing with anybody, but I was just like, but trust me, you're not, you're not much competition when you're driving a 1997 Dodge Grand Caravan with the freaking window taped shut.

• 26:26Speaker 01

  Hell, yeah.

• 26:28Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 26:30Jocko Willink?

  Never tell you that story, I was going to, I had a rich friend and I was going to his house and I was following him to his house. And he was driving up an S-Class Mercedes coupe with a 12 cylinder engine. Like this is a probably a hundred and fifty to two hundred thousand dollar vehicle.

• 26:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:48Jocko Willink?

  I'm driving in nineteen ninety seven.

• 26:49Speaker 01

  And when was this, what year?

• 26:50Jocko Willink?

  I was in the Navy, so.

• 26:52Speaker 01

  Five ish?

• 26:53Jocko Willink?

  No, I'd say like, probably like.

• 26:57Jocko Willink?

  Let's just say two thousand four, I don't know, something, well, a pretty long time ago, maybe two thousand seven, I don't know.

• 27:01Speaker 01

  It's a lot, yeah, that's even, yeah, yeah, cuz if it was like last week, you know, the, the, anyway, yeah, I got you.

• 27:07Jocko Willink?

  Oh, you're saying that the price of the car is even more valuable than.

• 27:10Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 27:11Jocko Willink?

  It's an expensive, expensive car.

• 27:12Speaker 01

  He's out there doing it.

• 27:13Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So even though I'm following him, there was a part of the road was a two lane road and we came to a stoplight and I was next to him.

• 27:24Jocko Willink?

  And he wanted to tell me something, so he rolls down his window, so he's on my left hand side, I'm looking out my driver's side.

• 27:30Speaker 01

  Wait, just for clarification, this is your friend?

• 27:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 27:32Speaker 01

  Or, or, but no rivalry though or nothing like that?

• 27:34Jocko Willink?

  No, no, he's a friend of mine.

• 27:35Speaker 01

  Just a friend, okay.

• 27:37Jocko Willink?

  But he rolls down the window, like he presses a button. In his car and the window on the passenger side goes down and he's, he's looking at me like, yo, roll down your window.

• 27:48Jocko Willink?

  I have to crack the door open. Cuz my window doesn't roll down, it's taped shut, it's broken.

• 27:53Speaker 01

  That's real.

• 27:54Jocko Willink?

  So, you know, I cracked the door and he's like, it's two, two streets up on the right or whatever. But I couldn't even roll down my window. So my point in telling you all this is.

• 28:06Jocko Willink?

  I was in, in the, going back to the former analogy I was given, we are competing on Facebook, you're buying this Cadillac, you look cooler than me. I'm, I can't compete with you right now, but I'm saving my money. And I'm, I'm setting that aside and now you fast forward fifteen years and you are still renting an apartment. And I now have a house.

• 28:30Jocko Willink?

  And I'm kinda like doing better, right? And so I, you're posting like, hey, I got another new Cadillac. And I'm posting, hey, just got my first house. And so, you know, I'm coming back. But there's sort of a, there's not just a strategic versus tactical thinking there, there's a, an asymmetric situation that I'm overcoming.

• 28:53Jocko Willink?

  And I'm not playing your game.

• 28:56Jocko Willink?

  You know, when, when going back to you and me now, we're in high school together. And you're kind of cool and you're on the football team and you're, you're also kind of like skipping classes. You know what I'm saying? Going to parties on the weekend, the homework's not getting turned in and it's cool. You still graduate. You know, and when you graduate, what do you do? You're like, go become a bouncer.

• 29:17Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 29:17Jocko Willink?

  You know what I'm saying? And meanwhile, I was over here working hard. I got good grades. I got into school for software engineering. I go and work hard and create an app. You know what I'm saying? And then we fast forward 15 years and well, you're kind of limited in what you've done. And I've kind of expanded. Now I own a big giant multi-billion dollar app company.

• 29:41Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 29:43Jocko Willink?

  But I didn't try and compete with you in the short term. Like you were better at football. You were more handsome than me. You were more charming with the, with the ladies, right? I couldn't really compete with that. So I focused on asymmetric warfare, long-term strategic vision. One day I'm going to own that guy's freaking whatever.

• 30:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 30:01Jocko Willink?

  I'm going to own his apartment building.

• 30:03Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 30:04Jocko Willink?

  You know, like the ultimate, I just come in and buy this, where you rent your apartment, I just come in and buy it and I jack your price up.

• 30:10Speaker 01

  Some freaking reprisal.

• 30:13Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's a reprisal, straight up.

• 30:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. That's a classic story though, right? Obviously, you know, in a lot of these movies, right? Where they even, even technically the real classic, the ugly duckling, that's kind of the, the jam. I mean, it's less about, if I remember correctly, it's less about competition, but still that's still that way. It can happen where it's like, hey, there's a bigger picture going on. Some people, they focus on the smaller picture or the short term as the case maybe. And you know, in the moment, yeah, you could get lured into that game and get beat at it. But you know, you're kind of, you're outnumbered, outgunned in that game. So you gotta look at a better way to approach it, you know? And you can play, play your own game.

• 30:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you've really got to pay attention to what games you want to compete in. Of course, we did a whole podcast about games and the big game and the games within the games. But you gotta pay attention to the games that you're going to compete in. And that's what we have to watch out for with asymmetric warfare. Are we going to get on the battlefield with someone that has more tanks than us, more artillery than us, more soldiers than us and better technology? Not a good idea. And that's what you've seen for America's adversaries.

• 31:22Jocko Willink?

  Since, well, really since the Vietnam War, they're not going to compete with us on that. Well, I guess Iraq Gulf War won. They tried to like, we've got, we've got tank brigades too. Yeah. Yeah, okay, watch this, you know, because we have air superiority. We have Dave Burke dropping freaking the first GPS guided bombs on your ass. Good deal, dude. That's the one. So you've got to pay attention to the game that you're going to play.

• 31:52Jocko Willink?

  And I think it's just very important to develop an ability to identify asymmetry in our lives. So that what we do is we focus our resources and our efforts in the right, on the right things, right? We prioritize and execute properly. If we can't figure out where to put our resources, we're not prioritizing and executing properly. We can waste all of our marketing dollars on some fantasy thing that doesn't really work, or, or doesn't really have a market. We spend all this marketing dollars on it, or we could, but we're wasting our money. We should put our marketing on this thing over here that's selling well.

• 32:30Jocko Willink?

  So you've got to figure that out. So I found a good, uh, paper, I guess, written from the Institute of Land Warfare, which is, which is run by the, the Association of the United States Army. They have this thing called the Institute of Land Warfare, and there's a paper called Defining Asymmetric Warfare, written by David L. Buffalo, B U F F A L O E. And this guy, uh, he started as an enlisted soldier in the National Guard in the late 1980s. He eventually went to Desert Storm. He earned a nomination to West Point. And then he did, you know, got his commission, did peacekeeping operations in Macedonia,

• 33:12Jocko Willink?

  uh, became an instructor at Ranger School, and then he served in Iraq and Afghanistan, multiple combat deployments. So he has a wide range of experiences and he captures some good perspective on asymmetric warfare, for sure. And, and some of what he's writing about is focused on

• 33:31Jocko Willink?

  the mechanics of the military and how the military puts together its methodology and how the military makes its choices. There's things like the QDR, which is, which is a huge deal inside the military. It's a quadrennial defense review. I- Saw that when I was the Admiral's aide. It's basically like every four years, the military just assesses everything.

• 33:53Speaker 01

  That's what that is.

• 33:54Jocko Willink?

  The quadrennial defense review. So he talks about things like this. He talks about joint publication one, joint warfare of the United States of America. These are the kind of documents that he explains. And, and he uses those to explain the evolution of the broad military perspective of asymmetric warfare. And I'm get, you can get this, this is, you can get this PDF online and check it out. I'm not going to go too deeply into that because it's, it's very focused on specifically inside the military. But there are some really good. He has some really good commentary about the topic at large. So I want to cover some of those.

• 34:34Jocko Willink?

  Some of those highlights from this paper, which is called defining asymmetric warfare.

• 34:41Speaker 01

  Uh, what year is this?

• 34:42Jocko Willink?

  This paper came out in 2006.

• 34:44Speaker 01

  Okay. So kind of updated.

• 34:46Jocko Willink?

  Oh yeah. Well, we've learned a lot since 2006.

• 34:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:50Jocko Willink?

  But what's good is you can see that he, this guy, David L. Buffalo, had a good feel for the knowledge that was coming, you know? He'd been to Iraq, been to Afghanistan. He understood what was happening.

• 35:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:03Jocko Willink?

  And he's making good predictions that still hold true.

• 35:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. A lot of, a lot of the manuals that we kind of go over are a little bit more old school than this one.

• 35:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. It's good to have one that's newer.

• 35:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 35:15Jocko Willink?

  All right. So here we go. There's a forward written by Gordon R. Sullivan, who's a general, United States Army, retired. Who's the president of the, uh, Association of the United States Army. He says warfare today has taken on a new form and grown to new levels. The type of warfare is not new and few of the tactics are new. What is new is that this type of war has recently reached a global level. And the United States and its allies have found themselves ill-prepared. Many strategists and theorists have attempted to grasp the concept.

• 35:46Jocko Willink?

  Of the war we are facing today, yet none have adequately given it definition and understanding. America's sole superpower status forces us to continually engage in asymmetric warfare, since no force can win a traditional war against us. Even traditional wars today, such as the first phase of Operation Iraqi Freedom, and in the future, will have many asymmetric elements and implications, especially after the traditional war has been won. So, there you go. That's written in September of 2006. So, getting into this, defining asymmetric warfare. This is the introduction. "The September 11th, 2001 terrorist attacks in the United States homeland captured the

• 36:30Jocko Willink?

  attention of the world and ushered in a new phase of warfare. Not that terrorism was new, it has been around since the dawn of time, but just as World War I and World War II elevated warfare itself to a worldwide level, 9/11 brought a global dimension to terrorism. The difference today is that the enemy takes on many faces and methods. Terrorism insurgency, war of information and ideas, war of disruptive threats, attacking using bioweapons through mail or cyber attacks on the internet, war waged by non-state actors against the sole remaining superpower. The face and method not used by the current enemy is what's known as traditional warfare. Warfare conducted by legitimate military forces of nation-states wherein objective is either terrain or enemy focused."

• 37:15Jocko Willink?

  So, isn't it interesting? And, look, it's not like, it's not like this hasn't existed before. But the war of information and ideas, disruptive threats, attacks using bioweapons, all these tools, which in, they were used sparingly in the past in like World War I, World War II, there was information war, there was propaganda in World War II, for sure. But the way that it works now, the way that you can fuel an insurgency now is, is definitely gained so much momentum.

• 37:49Jocko Willink?

  But what he's saying, and this is important. Traditional warfare is legitimate military forces of nation states. And the objective is either terrain, meaning I'm going to get your land or enemy, I'm going to kill a bunch of you. I'm going to focus on killing enemy or trading enemy, or I'm going to get terrain. That's what traditional warfare is focused on. Whereas asymmetric warfare is talking about ideas. We're talking about, more importantly, the focus is the populace, and we'll get to that. It goes through that speech that we've heard from John F. Kennedy before. This is another type of war. New in its intensity, ancient in its origin, war by guerrillas, guerrillas, subversive insurgents,

• 38:33Jocko Willink?

  assassins, war by ambush instead of by combat, by infiltration instead of aggression, seeking victory by eroding and exhausting the enemy instead of engaging him. It preys on economic unrest and ethnic conflicts. It requires, in those situations where we must encounter it, and these are the kinds of challenges that we will, that will be before us in the next decade if freedom is to be saved, a whole new kind of strategy, a wholly different kind of force, and therefore a wholly different kind of military training. This is the beginning of special operations. That was Kennedy addressing West Point class in 1962. And this is why, this is when the SEALs were made. Because he knew we were going to be fighting a different type of war.

• 39:18Jocko Willink?

  David Buffalo goes on to say here that many have tried to describe this new type of warfare, and many catchphrases and buzzwords have come and gone. Low intensity conflict, that was big when I first tried. Sounded cool, right? Getting involved in a low intensity conflict over here. Here's another one. Military operations other than war.

• 39:39Jocko Willink?

  That was another one. I lived through both those. There was a time when all the, all these officers were talking about, you know, this, this military operations other than war. Asymmetric warfare, fourth generation warfare, irregular warfare, these are all kind of things, names that have been thrown around. Traditional warfare has taken the form of violent military action among make amongst nation states. We covered that. The nine 11 terrorist attacks, of course, changed many concepts. Taking place roughly a decade after the breakup of the Soviet Union and the end of the bipolar order, nine 11 showed the West that their new enemy plays by no rules, respects no national boundaries, and although he wields little or no advanced technology or firepower,

• 40:23Jocko Willink?

  can wreak more destruction upon American lives on US soil in an hour than occurred in the nearly half century of the Cold War. The attacks also demonstrated that a military could no longer guarantee its ability to serve as a buffer between the enemy and its own government or people. This shock to the Western psyche spurred much of the discussion that was already transpiring on the concept of asymmetric warfare, changing perceptions of strategy, tactics, security, and threat forever. They were able to have a more significant impact in an hour with less technology, I

• 41:05Jocko Willink?

  mean drastically less technology than the Cold War, than the Russians had. He goes on to say, and I'm by, I obviously I'm not reading this whole document, you can find it, again, defining asymmetric warfare by David L. Buffalo, you can just get the PDF, you can read the whole thing if you want to, I'm hitting some highlights because it's very interesting and very informative. However, the concept of asymmetric warfare has been around for centuries. Following the teachings of Sun Tzu, all warfare is asymmetric because one exploits an enemy's strengths while attacking his weaknesses. The Greeks used the phalanx to defeat a mounted enemy. Hannibal used a feint in the middle of his forces with a double envelopment to achieve victory over the Romans.

• 41:48Jocko Willink?

  Every time a new tactic or invention changed the fortunes and power of one army or empire over another, an imbalance or asymmetry occurred, the waiting to one side created the conditions for victory. So he's basically saying there, like, every war.

• 42:05Jocko Willink?

  Is asymmetric in a way at some point it becomes asymmetric otherwise you get this what he says given the strict definition of symmetry if any war were perfectly symmetrically weighted then stalemate would be the norm and victory would be solely based on luck so yeah they always eventually become asymmetric or you just have a stalemate and then he goes on to say that they started using the term asymmetric warfare and they used it to describe everything and it became meaningless and he goes through a bunch of history about the the use of asymmetry and government documents some of the things that got used in that QDR which I talked about asymmetric means to attack our forces and interests overseas and Americans at home like very broad definition

• 42:50Jocko Willink?

  another thing asymmetric approaches are attempts to circumvent circumvent or undermine us strengths while exploiting us weaknesses using methods that differ significantly from the United States expected method of operations so these are just the ways that people were describing asymmetry asymmetry in the in the government and primarily in the military 2006 the QDR said this war requires the US military to adopt unconventional and indirect approaches currently Iraq and Afghanistan are crucial battlegrounds but the struggle extends far beyond their borders with its allies and

• 43:32Jocko Willink?

  partners the United States must be prepared to wage this war in many locations simultaneously and for some years to come yeah 2006 yeah it kept going until 2020 as the Department of Defense works to defeat these enemies it must also remain vigilant in an era of surprise and uncertainty and to prevent deter or defeat a wider range of asymmetric threats they're saying this in 2006

• 44:05Jocko Willink?

  There's, fast forward a little bit, other asymmetric challenges. Irregular challenges, catastrophic challenges, and disruptive challenges make up the other three quartiles and represent the future prescription for capabilities the Department of Defense wishes to achieve. Getting into this now, so, so there's a whole section, again, that's about like how we were defining it inside the military, and I said, I'm not going to cover that too much. But this is the, getting to some of the meat here. Asymmetry in history. The concept of asymmetric warfare has existed since the dawn of time. The first is Sun Tzu, the sage of warfare theory. In his monumental work, The Art of War, written more than 1,500 years ago, he states, "All

• 44:49Jocko Willink?

  warfare is based on deception. When confronted with an enemy, one should offer the enemy a bait to lure him, feign disorder and strike him. When he concentrates, prepare against him. Where he is strong, avoid him."

• 45:07Jocko Willink?

  Fast forward a little bit. Sun Tzu's concept of the asymmetric nature of all warfare was echoed in the mid 20th century by B. H. Liddell Hart, a staunch advocate of the indirect approach. He taught, quote, "The wisest strategy avoids the enemy's strengths and probes for his weaknesses." So, obviously, we've covered B. H. Liddell Hart, we've covered the indirect approach, we've covered Sun Tzu, covered the art of war on this podcast, and both of those can show you a version of asymmetric warfare.

• 45:44Jocko Willink?

  This is a good one. "In the late 19th century, another German, Otto von Bismarck, gave the first hint that non-traditional asymmetric concepts can help to balance conventional military weaknesses." And he says this, quote, "We live in a wondrous time in which the strong is weak because of his moral scruples, and the weak grows strong because of his audacity."

• 46:13Jocko Willink?

  So if you're weak, but you're willing to stick somebody in the back with a freaking broken bottle in a bar fight?

• 46:19Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 46:20Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm. Yep.

• 46:21Speaker 01

  Advantageous.

• 46:22Jocko Willink?

  You, you, you can win. You become strong because you're crazy.

• 46:25Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 46:28Jocko Willink?

  And the strong person who's not willing to go to jail over a bar fight becomes weak. He's like, oh, it's not appropriate place for me to fight. Oh, yeah, cool.

• 46:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:37Jocko Willink?

  And clearly, that's the way terrorism works. We don't care if we're terrorists. We don't care if we kill civilians. We don't care if we blow up a, a, a church or a school. In fact, we're gonna do that. So they become strong because of that. And because the larger power has the morals and scruples that don't do those things, they become weaker.

• 47:02Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. This statement illustrates a cultural asymmetry, bringing a whole new concept to asymmetry in warfare. In it, Bismarck illustrates that one can balance against a stronger military force if one is willing to forego the boundary of moral and cultural acceptability.

• 47:20Jocko Willink?

  Boom.

• 47:23Jocko Willink?

  You're willing to do some shady things or immoral things, you can gain strength.

• 47:30Jocko Willink?

  T. Lawrence, popularly known as Lawrence of Arabia, I mentioned him earlier, was one of the first military thinkers to understand and write about the concept of unconventional slash asymmetric warfare. In Seven Pillars of Wisdom, he points out that a strict military advantage might not be the surest route to victory. Quote, "Do not try to do too much with your own hands. Better the Arabs do it tolerably than that you do it perfectly. It is their war, and you are there to help them, not to win it for them."

• 47:59Jocko Willink?

  Lawrence shows that when fighting in an asymmetric environment, long-term objectives come into play. So what I was talking about earlier. Intangible progress is achieved by the manner in which the war is fought.

• 48:12Jocko Willink?

  So just how you're fighting the war is going to play into the long-term objective. This intangible progress outweighs the traditional military progress of fighting a campaign. He teaches, quote, "Actually, also, under the very odd conditions of Arabia, your practical work will not be as good as perhaps you think it is. It may take them longer and it may not be as good as you think, but if it is theirs, it will be better," end quote. This is allowing, in a leadership situation, allowing your subordinates to do something the way they want to do it, instead of dictating how you're going to do it to them. And when they do it themselves, it's going to be better in the long run

• 48:57Jocko Willink?

  than you just spoon-feeding them everything. Very important piece. Anytime you're bringing up a team, the long-term success is when they do things for themselves. By the way, that team includes your kids.

• 49:15Speaker 01

  Yes, it does.

• 49:15Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, you could do that. You could do the pro- have you done that yet? Have you freaking stepped up and done any school projects for your kids yet? Tell the truth. Tell the truth, bro.

• 49:25Speaker 01

  Uh, no.

• 49:28Jocko Willink?

  None?

• 49:28Speaker 01

  No, I have not. No, there was.

• 49:30Jocko Willink?

  What's your most senior grade?

• 49:32Speaker 01

  Most senior, well, Jace graduated, so.

• 49:36Jocko Willink?

  Okay, what about?

• 49:37Speaker 01

  So.

• 49:38Jocko Willink?

  You didn't do any part- you didn't, you didn't freaking?

• 49:40Speaker 01

  I assisted maybe a little bit.

• 49:42Jocko Willink?

  Was there any video editing that happened or anything like that?

• 49:45Speaker 01

  Well, not for any school project, no. But I helped the school out, but it's different. But the, uh, no, the closest I came to was I did a drawing for, yes, a project, a presentation of this museum scenario. And I drew it. I drew the museum. I didn't do the research and all the info part, but you know, it's part of the display, you know?

• 50:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, I know.

• 50:08Speaker 01

  I jumped in there, for sure.

• 50:11Jocko Willink?

  I don't think I've helped out maybe at all.

• 50:14Speaker 01

  That makes sense to me.

• 50:15Jocko Willink?

  But my wife, you think she hasn't been cutting some ribbons and sticking some things on some posts? I can tell you this, she's done some damn runs to the, to uh, the, the office depot.

• 50:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:27Jocko Willink?

  For some supplies, some late night freaking, what is it called? Board? There's some kind of special board for a project. They're in league dude, the public schools are in league with, with office depot.

• 50:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, I can see it.

• 50:42Jocko Willink?

  This is the kind of stuff, ribbons.

• 50:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, ribbons.

• 50:45Jocko Willink?

  Poster board, that's what it is. Poster board all day.

• 50:47Speaker 01

  Scotch tape.

• 50:48Jocko Willink?

  Foam backed poster board.

• 50:50Speaker 01

  Rubber cement. Do they still do rubber cement?

• 50:53Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 50:53Speaker 01

  Remember that?

• 50:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 50:54Speaker 01

  I felt like that was like super toxic.

• 50:57Jocko Willink?

  Probably, yeah.

• 50:58Speaker 01

  You know how like when you smell it?

• 50:59Jocko Willink?

  Actually, no, that's a good point. I don't think they do it because they have glue sticks now.

• 51:03Speaker 01

  Well, glue, Elmer's school glue was never toxic. That was the whole jam.

• 51:08Jocko Willink?

  The white stuff?

• 51:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Like you'd eat it. It tastes pretty good. But you know, but the rubber cement, bro, that, that's straight up smell like freaking kerosene or something like that.

• 51:17Jocko Willink?

  Well, I'm, we used to spread it out on the table and then like roll it and like rubber balls eventually, right?

• 51:22Speaker 01

  Hell, yeah.

• 51:23Jocko Willink?

  I wonder if that was, yeah, that's probably cost us some brain cells for sure, huh? It's probably legal now.

• 51:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, probably.

• 51:29Jocko Willink?

  But yeah, I, I don't think I helped out very much at all with this project or this stuff.

• 51:36Speaker 01

  How much of that was?

• 51:37Jocko Willink?

  Wait, wait, wait.

• 51:40Jocko Willink?

  I, I, I definitely gave some input on some writing, like some, hey, what are you doing? What like, think about this sentence. I gave a little bit of that feedback.

• 51:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, but that's different though, isn't it? Like, because even, even by your own doctrine, it's like, hey, like to guide someone in a different direction is different than be like, hey, it's, that's wrong. This is right. Write this, you know, where they're like, they don't have to think about it, you know, or nothing like that. It's different.

• 52:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 52:05Speaker 01

  So let me ask you this. How much of that of your, uh, how should I say? Lack of contribution in that, in that way, how much was that based on your, you know, your, uh, what do you call it? Your deliberate leadership principles and execution versus like a pride? I'm just not messing with it because you know, I don't have time or I don't, you know, I'm not interested, you know?

• 52:30Jocko Willink?

  Well, I would say a couple of things going on here. Number one, my kids were all like, they weren't coming to me last minute like, I need help with this. I owe a paper or whatever. They weren't doing that kind of thing. They were squared away. They'd have their stuff done. And so they weren't coming to me like, and I think they all knew they weren't gonna get it. There wasn't a lot of asking.

• 52:49Speaker 01

  Got a part of my plate.

• 52:50Jocko Willink?

  They'd go to mom, you know, but, and you know, uh, oh, my wife used to make like really good Halloween costumes for them.

• 53:01Speaker 01

  Oh, hell yeah.

• 53:02Jocko Willink?

  There was a OB hollow, there used to be, I don't think it happens anymore. There was a OB where I, where I live, Ocean Beach, holiday or Halloween, like,

• 53:12Speaker 01

  Like a festival.

• 53:13Jocko Willink?

  Festival. And one year, this is when I only had three kids. My fourth wasn't born yet. One year we swept. My wife swept the winds. I think my oldest daughter was dressed up like a, like an eyeball.

• 53:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:27Jocko Willink?

  And then one of them, I forget, one of them was like a jellyfish, but it was an umbrella with all these things hanging off and she was kind of pulsating it.

• 53:35Speaker 01

  All homemade.

• 53:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, all hundred percent homemade. And then my son was like a soldier.

• 53:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:41Jocko Willink?

  So he was just dressed up in camis.

• 53:43Speaker 01

  But executed perfectly.

• 53:45Jocko Willink?

  I mean, let's face it, he looked pretty good. You know what I'm saying? And I think he was just really small and cute, but had a machine gun. So kind of like, we gotta give this kid something. Otherwise, he's frigging gonna lose his mind.

• 53:58Jocko Willink?

  But yeah, she did a lot of that.

• 54:01Speaker 01

  Shoot, so, so she's pretty artistic then.

• 54:04Jocko Willink?

  No, she would straight like get a, uh, there's websites or there's magazines that would be like, and you could look up, my daughter wants to be an eyeball.

• 54:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 54:15Jocko Willink?

  And they would look up and get veins and stuff hanging out the back and like what to make them with. My, my wife is very committed to following instructions.

• 54:23Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. I dig it, man.

• 54:27Jocko Willink?

  Fast forward a little bit. He talks about, there's a book which I just ordered.

• 54:32Jocko Willink?

  1964, written by a French officer named David Galula. The book is called Counterinsurgency Warfare. Reads like a field manual for counterinsurgency. I just, like I said, I just ordered it. So in that book, he says, "There is an asymmetry between the opposite camps of a revolutionary war. This phenomenon results in the very nature of the war, from the disproportion of strength between the opponents at the outset, and from the difference in essence between their assets and liabilities. The insurgent has a formidable asset, the ideological power of a cause on which to base his action. The counterinsurgent has a heavy liability.

• 55:17Jocko Willink?

  He is responsible for maintaining order throughout the country. The insurgent's strategy will naturally aim at converting his intangible assets into concrete ones. The counterinsurgent's strategy at preventing his intangible liability from dissipating his concrete assets. The peculiarities that mark the Revolutionary War as so different from the conventional one derive from this initial asymmetry." And I know that's a bit wordy, but we're going to get a little bit more into this concept of what the insurgent has, which is an idea. And how hard is it to protect an idea? Well, in some ways, it's not that hard.

• 56:00Jocko Willink?

  How hard is it to protect a bridge? How hard is it to protect airplanes? You know, how hard is it to protect government stations? All those things cost a lot. And whereas if you just have an idea, well, how do you spread your idea? Well, how do you spread your kingdom? You build more, you take more land. How do you spread an idea? It doesn't cost you anything. So there's an asymmetry on just the cost that we're talking about right there.

• 56:30Jocko Willink?

  And then he talks about this other thing and he'll get back to Galula a little bit later. 1999, two Colonels, Cao Liang and Wang Zhengzui, from the People's Republic of China, they wrote a book called Unrestricted Warfare, which caused a mass panic in the US defense and intelligence community. It suggested other catastrophic and disruptive threats as the only means to wage war against a country that is vastly superior in traditional and conventional military might.

• 57:05Jocko Willink?

  This is, this one you can find on the internet. Don't need to buy it, although you can buy copies of it as well.

• 57:13Jocko Willink?

  They say this in that book, "While we are seeing a relative reduction in military violence, at the same time, we are definitely seeing an increase in political, economic, and technological violence.

• 57:27Jocko Willink?

  However, regardless of the form the violence takes, war is war. And a change in the external appearance does not keep any war from abiding by the principles of war."

• 57:42Jocko Willink?

  So this is the straight admission that, look, there's less war, there's less war we see on TV, but it's all because it's now political, it's economic, and it's technological.

• 57:56Jocko Willink?

  And does this read like just the straight playbook of what China's been doing to us? 100% economic war, technological war, political warfare. All that stuff is happening right now. And we're over here

• 58:13Jocko Willink?

  just seemingly like idiots.

• 58:17Jocko Willink?

  And meanwhile, they're fighting war with us.

• 58:23Jocko Willink?

  He goes on here to talk about asymmetric warfare in scholarly writing. So he's done some of the, did some of the military stuff, did some of the other literature around it. And then he starts talking about some of the academic. Again, not going to spend a ton of time around this. One of the studies built the notion of realist doctrine of international relations that a rational enemy of the United States would seek means to strike at America where they could avoid the tremendous US military advantage, obviously. Dr. Max Mannwaring in international wars in September 2001 wrote, "Strategies being developed to protect or further the interests of a number of new players on the international scene are inspired by the dual idea

• 59:07Jocko Willink?

  of evading and frustrating superior conventional military force within the global chaos. The better a power such as the United States becomes at the operational level of conventional war, the more a potential opponent turns to asymmetric solutions." So no one's going to try and fight us. Fast forward a little bit, Melissa Applegate, a former military intelligence officer, she wrote, "Asymmetric approaches can no longer be considered secondary or peripheral to conventional threats. US forces must master the asymmetric domain with the same intellectual energy devoted to conventional warfare because asymmetry is not just a threat." Which is interesting. You know when they made, you know what space war is? Space war?

• 59:52Jocko Willink?

  Oh, sorry. Space force? Space force? Trump made that and I really wished that instead of Space Force, they made like the Information Force or the Cyber Force. It should have been Cyber Force. Cause we should have just full, and look, we've got elements that are dedicated to that, but they're within our existing military. It should be a separate force. That's like, this is what you're doing. Because this is the threat we're facing right now. Look at what China's doing. They just said it. They said it in 1999. It's going to be an economics, it's going to be technological warfare. We're not going to go toe to toe. At least they don't want to. We're going to go information warfare. We're going to go psyops. That's what's happening. It should be a, a, a cyber branch.

• 1:00:37Jocko Willink?

  That we're high, you know, you, you know, you recruit like you recruit guys for the SEAL Teams. What do you get when you recruit a guy from SEAL Teams? A dude that's like freaking working out. He wants to go shoot people. Like that's what you're getting. You're getting guys that are aggressive, that have high testosterone. Like that's what you're getting. Recruit someone from the Marine Corps. Who joins the Marine Corps? Like a young kid, got a bunch of testosterone, wants to go kill bad guys for his country. That's what they're doing. That's what they want. Perfect. But if, if you're trying to recruit someone that's super smart and really into

• 1:01:13Jocko Willink?

  computers, or really into propaganda, or really into filmmaking, like you, those are the kind of people you need to fight a cyber war and an information war. And we're not recruiting them. We're recruiting knuckleheads like me that are like, you know what I mean? Yep, I did. Fast forward, 2003. Retired, retired General Montgomery Meigs. He said Al Qaeda's overall strategy is not new. The 11th and 12th century, in the 11th and 12th centuries, the assassins, a military weak, a militarily weak fundamentalist and extremist sect use pinpoint killing

• 1:01:58Jocko Willink?

  to bring more powerful ruling groups to heal indoctrinating their young followers into an extreme and enthusiastic cult of Shia Islam. They sent individuals and small teams out to infiltrate the inner circles of targeted leaders today. Only the mechanisms of attack have changed. Stuff's been around forever. Dr. Stephen Blank, he said this, for the last several years, the US strategic community has used the terms asymmetric and asymmetry to characterize everything from the threats we face to the wars we fight. In doing so, we've twisted these concepts beyond utility, particularly as they relate to any threats we face. So he's saying, we use the term asymmetric so much that it just lost its meaning.

• 1:02:42Jocko Willink?

  The term asymmetric warfare has dwindled into uselessness.

• 1:02:48Jocko Willink?

  And eventually they did form in 2006, March of 2006, the Asymmetric Warfare Group, AWG, Army Special Missions Unit. And these guys were going around, they were in Ramadi, they came out and like went on some patrols with us, but they were just advising, hey, here's where things are heading, here's where we think things are heading. So this, this asymmetric warfare has certainly been a focus inside the military. They created a group around it.

• 1:03:19Jocko Willink?

  He talks about some of the past attempts to define asymmetric warfare, some guy's named Metzen Johnson. They made some attempts, "In the realm of military affairs and national security, asymmetry is acting, organizing, and thinking differently than opponents in order to maximize one's own advantages, exploit an opponent's weaknesses, attain the initiative, or gain greater freedom of action."

• 1:03:44Jocko Willink?

  Pretty straightforward. Colonel Robert Shaw, the first commanding officer of the US Army's new asymmetric warfare group, defines asymmetric warfare as "warfare in which the two or more belligerents are mismatched in their military capabilities or accustomed methods of engagement, such that the militarily disadvantaged power must press its special advantages or its enemy's particular weaknesses if they are to prevail."

• 1:04:13Jocko Willink?

  So, he, he goes through these, now he starts talking about thoughts and discussion around asymmetry. Talks about the asymmetric, asymmetric nature of all warfare, we've kind of covered that. Asymmetry of cost, this is an important one. One aspect of the current asymmetric, asymmetric war is the asymmetry of cost. Gallula, that's the French officer, noted in 1964, "The asymmetry of the cost between an insurgent and a counter insurgent. An insurgent blows up a bridge, a counter insurgent now must guard all bridges. An insurgent throws a grenade into a theater, a counter insurgent must now make very expensive steps to ensure that the population feels

• 1:04:56Jocko Willink?

  safe. This concept is drastically illustrated today in the tremendous cost to the United States to secure its airways after the relatively inexpensive, for the attackers, for the attackers, 9/11 attacks."

• 1:05:13Jocko Willink?

  Essentially, when you get right down to it, resources are gonna need to be expended. And if you make the enemy expend more and more and more and more of their resources, eventually they're gonna run out. We see this now with, you know, the over in Ukraine, a 10 million or $20 million tank getting taken out by a $200 or $300 drone.

• 1:05:36Jocko Willink?

  It's a nightmare. The Houthis launching their drone attacks and little cheap missile attacks against big American ships.

• 1:05:51Jocko Willink?

  And then there's this idea of cultural asymmetry. Asymmetry. Failure to understand an enemy's culture, assuming that the enemy thinks as you do and shares your values, will lend to a failure to achieve victory because you are unable to identify his center of gravity. General Anthony Zinni, US Marine Corps retired, identified the center of gravity of America's current enemy as angry, young Muslim men. Cultural asymmetry impacts the way the West communicates or fails to communicate with this center of gravity. So we make mistakes on how we're talking to people.

• 1:06:37Jocko Willink?

  We think they think like us. They don't.

• 1:06:40Jocko Willink?

  And you've got to get over that. And this happens. I mean, this can happen from different families. Like one family has one culture, another family has another culture. It's like, oh, yeah.

• 1:06:52Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, I'm just gonna let my kids go out all night. Another family's like, are you crazy? The kids need to be like, you can have a cultural differences within a family. And you can't think that other people think the way you do. It doesn't work.

• 1:07:09Jocko Willink?

  Multi-dimensional warfare Shaw cited the multi-dimensional nature of asymmetric warfare. Whereas traditional warfare is linear nature asymmetric warfare is multi-dimensional and amorphous. One category blends into another, one action affects the other. And there's a guy named Dr. David Kill Cullen, retired Australian Lieutenant Colonel was in East Timor. And he said, or he talked about population centric warfare, and I alluded to this earlier.

• 1:07:41Jocko Willink?

  Kill Cullen also identified traditional warfare as either terrain centric, as in World War Two, and also in the Falklands and or the Kuwait or Kuwait during Operation Desert Storm, or enemy centric as phase one of Operation Iraqi Freedom, where the primary goal was to seek out the Republican Guard and the Ba'ath Party, wherever they might be. Asymmetric warfare is population centric. The population is the ultimate key to victory for both sides of the conflict.

• 1:08:10Jocko Willink?

  So it's very important that you identify

• 1:08:17Jocko Willink?

  what it is you're trying to accomplish. Are you, what are you fighting for? Right? What are you fighting for? Are you fighting to achieve something like terrain? Like, are we trying to take this hill? Or this land? Or are we just trying to get rid of this enemy? Or are we trying to beat someone?

• 1:08:39Jocko Willink?

  Some idea? Again, this is one of those things where I've worked with companies where they're trying to scale. Right? We're trying to scale. But you ask them why they're trying to scale. And sometimes they don't have the best answer. Right? They're trying to scale because that's the next step when they went to business school on where you grow and blah, blah, blah, blah. But you say, okay, so you want to be the, for instance, oh, you want to be the CEO of a public company. Do you know what that means? Do you know what it means to be a public company? Do you know the kind of scrutiny you're under? Do you know the kind of rules and regulations that you're now going to have to follow? Whereas right now, you don't have to worry about those things because they don't impact millions of shareholders. So, so why is it you want to do this?

• 1:09:21Jocko Willink?

  And sometimes they can't, sometimes they have a good answer. Hey, look, it's going to give us access to capital. It's going to give us the, the reach that we want to get. Okay, cool. There can be a reason for it. But if your reason is like, cause that's kind of the, you could consider that in some ways going public as the pinnacle of business growth, right? We built this business and we went public. Okay. Why do you want to go public? Well, I want to achieve the pinnacle. Okay. If that's, but let's at least be honest about that.

• 1:09:49Jocko Willink?

  Because there might be better ways to make things happen than going public.

• 1:09:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a, with college, right? That's like a thing. I mean, now it's more prevalent for people to think about, think about it because I think college is kind of under a little bit more scrutiny publicly now.

• 1:10:04Jocko Willink?

  A lot more scrutiny.

• 1:10:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. Then it was before, but you know, you know, why are you going to college? Bro, if you were to ask me that back in the day, besides football, but let's face it, you know, like football, you know, it's very rare that that's a viable thing, you know, to go.

• 1:10:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. What percentage of?

• 1:10:19Speaker 01

  High school?

• 1:10:20Jocko Willink?

  D1 football, football players make it to the pros.

• 1:10:22Speaker 01

  Actually, yeah. And if you want to look broader, it's like, what percentage of high school football people who want to go to college to play football, go to pros. It's even less.

• 1:10:30Jocko Willink?

  Is that like less than 1%?

• 1:10:33Speaker 01

  Way, way less. Oh, way less. Oh, yeah.

• 1:10:35Jocko Willink?

  How many people get drafted every year?

• 1:10:37Speaker 01

  I don't know. I, I'm not sure, but if you, if you consider only the top high school people go to college. I don't care. D1 all the way down to D3, double, triple C, whatever. I don't know, whatever the letters, numbers are. But only the top guys. So you figure, let's say there's an average of, I don't know, 60 people on a high school football team, you know, only like, I don't know. I mean, depends, but you know, let's say it ranges from one person all the way to, or actually zero people.

• 1:11:03Jocko Willink?

  How many people from your high school football team, senior class went, played in college?

• 1:11:07Speaker 01

  Any college, um, senior class. I don't know. Probably.

• 1:11:13Speaker 01

  Six or eight.

• 1:11:14Jocko Willink?

  Damn, and you and Jade were two of them, huh?

• 1:11:16Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:11:17Jocko Willink?

  That's pretty impressive.

• 1:11:18Speaker 01

  Me, Jade, Jeremy.

• 1:11:18Jocko Willink?

  Did any of your guys from your high school team go and play with you at college?

• 1:11:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, Jeremy Trask.

• 1:11:23Jocko Willink?

  Damn.

• 1:11:24Speaker 01

  Hell, yeah. Um, later when, and obviously we didn't go pro, you know that about me. I'm not, I was never an NFL player. Um, neither was Jeremy Trask. Jeremy went to the SEAL teams, you know, good on him. Uh, and then, yeah, some guys went to smaller colleges for sure, but only a few. And you figure there's what, 60 people, you know, on the team? And that, you know, across the board, and we're pretty average. Like, you know, we were, we were good as far as high school and then, and the nation, we're okay. You know, we're probably right in the middle of the road, to be honest with you. Um, so you kind of, kind of extrapolate that out, but no one's going, pretty much no one's going to the NFL, pretty much.

• 1:11:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:58Speaker 01

  You got one guy out of probably what, 3,000 people, maybe?

• 1:12:03Jocko Willink?

  Damn.

• 1:12:03Speaker 01

  Not even that, really? When you can kind of look at the numbers for sure.

• 1:12:07Jocko Willink?

  It's some, it's some low numbers.

• 1:12:08Speaker 01

  Nonetheless, okay, point is, um, yeah, ask yourself, why are we going to college? And even football aside, I was just talking about myself, football aside, it's like, why are you going to college? Well, because that's what my parents expect me to do. That's what my town expects me to do. That's what, you know? That's just how, that's what, that's, I don't know what I'm going to study yet. Like, I used to hear that all the time. I don't know. But I'm going to get a college education and then see what up and bro. Right, you'd be surprised how, you know, how many better options there are, you know?

• 1:12:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, especially when you end up, whatever, 200 grand in debt.

• 1:12:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:41Jocko Willink?

  And you have a degree that's meaningless in many ways.

• 1:12:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:46Jocko Willink?

  Depending on the degree you pick.

• 1:12:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, and a lot of times too, like you, you, and this is just one of many outcomes, obviously, but the, you can go to college and be like, oh yeah, I want to go to college because I want to get a, a, a good job, right? Let's say that, which is actually kind of solid, really.

• 1:12:59Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:00Speaker 01

  But you can wind up in a, kind of referring back to the whole game thing, like what game are you playing? You were playing the game of like going to college to get a good job, rather than, bro, you could serve like the whole, your whole. Community, country, whatever, and yourself getting like a job that you would enjoy and be more committed to and will have a farther reach than, I don't know, whatever job you might have been pursuing at first, you know? Just because you were only thinking in that one specific way and didn't ask that question like, hey, what like, what's the outcome that I really want from this thing? Rather than just going, okay, this, this next step is really the outcome I want. No, no. Okay, now this next step is like, and then all of a sudden you look up and you're like, ah, I should have did something else.

• 1:13:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, especially people end up, they get their, their first degree after four years and they get their masters and they get their PhD. And sometimes I talk to those people, they don't have a goal of doing anything with that other than becoming an academic themselves, which is if that's really what you want to do, cool. But just think about that.

• 1:13:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:00Jocko Willink?

  Just know what you're doing and why you're doing it.

• 1:14:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:02Jocko Willink?

  Same thing with going to like a, a big school, the big name, you're like, oh, I really want to go to this school. Well, why? Cause it's going to cost you this much more money and run the numbers and see if it's going to get you what you expect out of it.

• 1:14:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:15Jocko Willink?

  Got to be careful of these things.

• 1:14:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, fully. It'll, I, at the very least, I feel like asking the question more often. What, what's the goal here? What are we doing? Like, what's the goal? Why am I doing this?

• 1:14:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that is, is not just what's the goal. Why do I have this goal?

• 1:14:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:28Jocko Willink?

  You said it. I was going to cut you off. Thankfully I didn't. Because it's not just what's the goal. Why is this the goal? Like, why do you need a bigger house, let's say?

• 1:14:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:38Jocko Willink?

  Right?

• 1:14:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:39Jocko Willink?

  Cause you got your house and you kind of want a bigger one. And if you can have a legitimate reason for it, like, oh, well, I have two more kids now, or I have another kid or whatever. You can have legit reasons for that, but you can also just want another house because

• 1:14:56Jocko Willink?

  you want to straight up keep up with the Joneses. Which is a real thing.

• 1:15:02Speaker 01

  It is a real thing.

• 1:15:02Jocko Willink?

  We have to be careful of.

• 1:15:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, fully. And, and a lot of times too, especially um, when you don't really, really focus on asking yourself that question, it'll feel justified. You know, it'll feel like, oh, I want to keep up with Joneses and since it's more of like this feeling, you feel, you feel all the motivation, you feel all the justification or whatever, but you know, it's not like articulated even in, in your own head. So you'll just let it slide. And then people wind up doing that kind of stuff and jamming themselves up. But at the very least, you keep asking yourself these questions, it'll improve the, uh, the probability of, of, of your success and satisfaction, I think. Cause let's face it, on the flip side, which is bad advice, by the way, but it is possible to just be like,

• 1:15:44Speaker 01

  I don't know, I'm supposed to do this. And then you have, let's say, oh, I don't know, I'm supposed to exercise. I don't know, I'm supposed to do this stuff, right? And you do it and then you kind of look up and find yourself in a pretty solid situation. Like that's, that is possible.

• 1:15:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that is possible.

• 1:15:57Speaker 01

  Um, you know, the, but I don't think that's like the intelligent way to do it comparatively speaking.

• 1:16:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. There's some times when you're 14 and you're just kind of doing what you're told. There might, there might be some reason behind it because you haven't figured it out yet.

• 1:16:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:14Jocko Willink?

  You're like, dude, I just want to play football and like talk to girls, right?

• 1:16:16Speaker 01

  Hell, yeah.

• 1:16:17Jocko Willink?

  That's Echo Charles.

• 1:16:20Speaker 01

  Well, consider every NFL player, pretty much, pretty much, more or less, right? Where it's like, no, bro, I just want to play football. I'm going to train and I love doing it. And you know, I know it's just, and I'm just looking and I want to win this next game. I want to win the championship and I want to, sure, I want to go to the NFL, right? Even though they know the numbers, they know the probability, right? But they'll look up and they just sort of did the right thing. What's in front of them? Cause they love football straight up.

• 1:16:42Jocko Willink?

  And even if they don't make it to the NFL, well, you had to keep your grades up. You stayed in good shape, you know, you worked on this. You didn't get in trouble. Like there's a bunch of good things you could have done with trying to get that goal and it'd all be good.

• 1:16:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it looks great, but it's like, um, if you don't ask the question, I'm just saying like probability wise, that you're, you're not setting yourself up.

• 1:17:00Jocko Willink?

  Generally speaking, that's.

• 1:17:02Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 1:17:02Jocko Willink?

  We want to, we want to ask these questions. You want to understand what you're fighting for and why you're fighting for it. If you don't know it, you could be out there trying to fight for terrain when you don't care about the terrain.

• 1:17:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:13Jocko Willink?

  You be fighting for the, against the enemy. You don't really care about that enemy. Like what do you, you know, that's the keeping up with the Joneses. Like really? Is that really what, you know, is you really need to get a new freaking Cadillac? Like your Cadillac's two years old and now you need a new one. You know what I mean?

• 1:17:34Jocko Willink?

  Alright, so then we get finally to David L. Buffalo's recommended definition of asymmetric warfare. In consideration of the above analysis, again, I only touched on the wave tops. I propose the following definition of asymmetric warfare. Asymmetric warfare is population centric, non-traditional warfare waged between a military superior power and one or more inferior powers, which encompasses all of the following aspects. Evaluating defeating asymmetric threat, conducting asymmetric operations, understanding cultural asymmetry, and evaluating asymmetric cost.

• 1:18:12Jocko Willink?

  That's his definition that he came up with. To fully understand, the definition above requires discussion of the four primary elements of asymmetric warfare described there, and so he uses these terms. Asymmetric threat. Components comprising asymmetric threat are terrorism, insurgency, information operations, disruptive threats, and unknown threats. Terrorism, we kind of know what terrorism is. Terrorism includes all known forms of terrorism that exist today. Suicide terrorism, catastrophic attacks, political assassination, biological strikes like anthrax, malings, and many others. Terrorism is meant to produce a horrific effect. In the information age, terrorism is much more effective because the terrorist message is disseminated and its impact felt instantly and worldwide. Insurgency.

• 1:18:57Jocko Willink?

  At its root, an insurgency is a revolutionary war. Asymmetric abound in an insurgency. The key is that unlike a terrorist, an insurgent is completely reliant upon the population. And the population is the objective for both the insurgent and the counter insurgent.

• 1:19:16Jocko Willink?

  Fast forward a little bit. Information operations. Galula stated in Counter Insurgency Warfare that information operations, IO, are key. And I can go and tell you that I believe that this is the biggest key. That's why we need cyber war. We need a cyber warfare branch, which would include information operations. An insurgent's greatest asset is an idea. He wants to spread this idea and convert it into more tangible assets like soldiers and support. Which is interesting, like you think about it, you got this idea. And you want to get people on board with your idea. That's what they want to convert the idea into like someone that's gonna go and throw a pipe bomb.

• 1:20:00Jocko Willink?

  Or even more, someone that's gonna form up 10 people to go carry pipe bombs. Or that's gonna form up 20 people, but they're actually gonna get RPGs, like real weapons, not just homemade. You see what I'm saying? It's like converting these ideas into people. And material.

• 1:20:19Jocko Willink?

  Similarly, in today's asymmetric war, the United States is fighting a war of ideas. When the Muslim population is the objective. In this war, information operations are key. In the information age, a terrorist network or a weak insurgent need not have extensive funding to have as much message heard. Bin Laden can easily issue a fatwa by having one operative publish it on the internet. Of course, Bin Laden can't do that so easily anymore.

• 1:20:49Jocko Willink?

  The enemy wages information warfare by issuing propaganda, creating lies and developing conspiracies. The enemy, like the insurgents described by Galula, can bank currency on mere premises rather than upon action. They can also seek to drive a wedge between the target population and the West. This was clearly exemplified by the violence that followed the publication of the Danish cartoon depicting the Prophet Muhammad.

• 1:21:21Jocko Willink?

  Isn't it interesting?

• 1:21:24Jocko Willink?

  Is that? What the insurgent needs to do is just create rumors. Just create propaganda, lies, they just need to get them out there. And it gets traction with no, with very little cost.

• 1:21:41Jocko Willink?

  Disruptive threat promoting disorder is a legitimate objective for the asymmetric enemy between terrorism and disruptive threats lies much overlap when conducting a disruptive strike an asymmetric enemy need not even commit an action the mere threat of action is enough to disrupt the American way of life this holds true in the United States but even more so in part of the world where suicide bombing is part of daily life and he goes into this section that's about enemy versus tools many people view crime organized crime hate crime disease drug trade protests natural disasters peaceful disobedience or human trafficking as potential asymmetric threats these in and of themselves are not the enemy because they failed to meet the Clausewitzian

• 1:22:24Jocko Willink?

  principle of politics through other means rather they are events that are part of that are profit motivated directed toward minorities rather than toward the government part of the nature or part of the political life of a free democracy however each one of these could be used by an asymmetric enemy to achieve his goals in this case it becomes a tool and does fall under the realm of asymmetric threat criminal elements can supply and assist enemies protesters can further an enemy's cause natural disasters can provide a disruption that the enemy can capitalize upon however none of these is motivated by the ideology of the enemy a criminal seeks profit and

• 1:23:05Jocko Willink?

  avoids arrests his ideology is moot criminals can be bribed to work against the enemy or intimidated into submission if their price is too high so it's interesting you get someone that's just you want to disrupt Americans get people turned on each other that's all you need oh you got oh you got a pandemic cool let's take advantage of that let's just make we'll just cause more chaos with that

• 1:23:35Jocko Willink?

  Each enemy tool must be addressed by a strategist as long as that tool is not targeted as the actual enemy. Targeting these forces as an enemy instead of as a tool can cause the population, the true objective, to become more sympathetic to the enemy's ideology. Asymmetric operations in this formulation are those operations that are planned and conducted by the stronger side of an asymmetric war. They can be thought of as an offensive operation. They consist primarily of putting an asymmetric twist on the traditional spheres of national power, limited for the purposes of this paper, diplomacy, information, military, and economic.

• 1:24:15Jocko Willink?

  He talks about the asymmetric diplomacy, talks about asymmetric information operations. Galula said something else. With no positive policy, but with good propaganda, the asymmetric enemy may still win. We can never, we can seldom cover bad or nonexistent policy with propaganda. So, they can do, the enemy, the weaker enemy can win with just propaganda. And yet, the strong one can usually not even cover up things that they've done with propaganda. That's how hard it is.

• 1:24:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, it's like the, this whole idea of, and I'm trying to just really kind of construct a mental freaking diagram of this whole thing, which is very interesting, by the way. So, it's almost like, because it's all relative. So, like, if, if, let's say, we'll call it the underdog and the, what's the opposite of underdog? The freaking, the favorite.

• 1:25:16Jocko Willink?

  Favorite, yeah.

• 1:25:17Speaker 01

  So, the underdog is already down here. So, an improvement in the, for the underdog is like, pretty simple, just one step up, you know? But you're already down here. The favorite like bruh, his improvement is like kinda hard. So every step he risks freaking degeneration. He's he's he he he risks like a loss. Big or small. And that's a hard position to be in, you know, he's already at the top kind of a thing. So it's like in a way, in a way. Every move is favored by the underdog in a way.

• 1:25:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:48Speaker 01

  Cause if he doesn't, if he's not successful, brother, we were, we were not successful even before we made the move. So.

• 1:25:54Jocko Willink?

  I I impressed Greg Train.

• 1:25:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:56Jocko Willink?

  Greg Train, he goes, hey, when you talked about Star Wars and how we just, everyone roots for the rebel. Like everyone roots for the underdog. He said, did you, did you come up with that? I I don't know if I came up with it, but I haven't heard anybody else use Star Wars to describe the fact that. There's a reason when they made this movie.

• 1:26:18Jocko Willink?

  It's not about the freaking dominant empire just crushing people. No, no one wants to see that.

• 1:26:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:24Jocko Willink?

  There's like very few. Movies that are about the dominant force dominating even more. Right? I guess you could say, uh, Team America, World Police, right? But it's just a big mockets of comedy.

• 1:26:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:41Jocko Willink?

  They're they're just making fun of it.

• 1:26:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:44Jocko Willink?

  So, yes, you're right. When the, when the underdog. You know, scores a touchdown, the crowd goes wild.

• 1:26:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's like the, yeah, they're opened up for all kinds of moral victories and like all this stuff, you know, where they can like capitalize on and and benefit from. That the favorite simply cannot.

• 1:27:04Jocko Willink?

  Dude, let's face it, if the favorite runs up the score.

• 1:27:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's kind of a loss on.

• 1:27:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, they kind of lose.

• 1:27:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's hard to get a moral victory. Yeah. Yeah, man, that's weird. That's crazy. Here's the, and not to go too, too much of a tangent, which, but I will. The, the whole Empire, Star Wars and stuff, they did a good job. Okay, so this is what they did. And this is like a thing. Where when they create bad individuals.

• 1:27:29Speaker 01

  They put them, they make them relatable to, to good people. That's what, that one, that's what makes a great bad guy. I know I said this before, but the, it, that's what makes a great bad guy. Iconic bad guy, someone that the normal person will like relate to and kind of cheer for. Certain qualities. At the end of the day.

• 1:27:45Jocko Willink?

  Darth Vader?

• 1:27:45Speaker 01

  Darth Vader, you know, like he was like, there's some good in him and, and he, he has his own morals, like all this stuff. And he's powerful, but he has his own morals. And when it's time to get stuff done, he'll get it done, you know, kind of that thing. And there's all, you know, even like small little bad guys that people tend to like, there's a guy named Darth Maul in like episode one. He's small, small role, but very impactful, right? People love that guy because he's like so athletic. He's super stoic. He's like really good at fighting. Um, in fact, people were mad the way he died.

• 1:28:15Jocko Willink?

  How did I?

• 1:28:16Speaker 01

  He just got chopped in half or whatever on like some weak move that the other guy did or whatever. It's like, it wasn't symmetrical with like his performance, kind of a thing. Anyway.

• 1:28:24Jocko Willink?

  What, he just get caught?

• 1:28:25Speaker 01

  He got caught. Exactly right. But he's so good.

• 1:28:28Jocko Willink?

  Who killed him?

• 1:28:29Speaker 01

  It was Obi-Wan Kenobi.

• 1:28:31Jocko Willink?

  Damn, okay. Well, Obi-Wan's kind of.

• 1:28:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, but he was just like. Yeah, yeah, later, but he's like more of a learner at the time. Anyway. But anyway, the point is, but the empire is, is, that's not an individual character. You know, like you can like the idea of domination or whatever, but the, but the empire is bad. And the rebels, they're all good people and all that. So you can't, it's very hard to, to root for the empire. But it's very easy to root for like Darth Vader or these bad people. So that's what makes like the movie and the movie arc so interesting, you know, usually. If you get a bad guy that you can't relate to him at all, like there's, I can't think of an example, but there's bad guys who you can't relate to at all. You just can't wait for the guy to die. And then when he dies, like freaking, why did I waste my time even, you know, kind of a thing with this movie? Or another little wrench they throw in if they make the good guy annoying.

• 1:29:18Speaker 01

  That's another wrench they throw, they throw in.

• 1:29:20Jocko Willink?

  Did they do that in Star Wars?

• 1:29:21Speaker 01

  No. Karate Kid one, though they do for sure. In fact, all the Karate Kids.

• 1:29:25Jocko Willink?

  Wait, who's annoying? Ralph Macchio?

• 1:29:27Speaker 01

  Daniel LaRusso, the character, yes.

• 1:29:30Jocko Willink?

  Wait, Daniel LaRusso is played by Ralph Macchio?

• 1:29:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:34Jocko Willink?

  And he's a little bit annoying?

• 1:29:35Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 1:29:36Jocko Willink?

  In what way?

• 1:29:37Speaker 01

  Um, well, his personality, he'd always be like rocking the boat, you know, like the new kid rocking the boat.

• 1:29:43Jocko Willink?

  Oh, so they did that intentionally.

• 1:29:45Speaker 01

  On purpose, yeah.

• 1:29:47Jocko Willink?

  He kind of causes some beef.

• 1:29:48Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah, fully.

• 1:29:49Jocko Willink?

  I don't, I haven't seen that movie in a long.

• 1:29:51Speaker 01

  Sure, watch it. Like, he does annoying stuff, like, like obvious stuff.

• 1:29:54Jocko Willink?

  You're like, dude, what are you doing?

• 1:29:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, don't do that. Yeah, exactly right. Yeah.

• 1:29:58Jocko Willink?

  And so why do they do that?

• 1:29:59Speaker 01

  To make you more engaged with everything. So it's like, you know, he's at the end of the day a good, so you're rooting for him, but you're troubled. And then the bad guy's inverse, you know, where it's like, you know, he shouldn't win or whatever, but you're troubled because you kind of want him to win because, hey, man, I dig it. I see why you're mad right there, you know, kind of a thing. So you just engage the whole time, hopefully. That's kind of part of the little, little strategy.

• 1:30:19Jocko Willink?

  Interesting, but it's interesting point, case in point, is what Galula said. The, the insurgent, the underdog can get a win based on a lie. And the, the freaking empire, the favorite can't really even cover up with the truth. He can't use the truth, like come out and say, hey, actually, this is not true. It's kind of crazy.

• 1:30:45Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. And there's another example. Okay. So, you know,

• 1:30:51Speaker 01

  I'm forgetting about the movie necessarily, but okay, the idea of like a little kid stealing food, right? It was about the thing, he's literally, literally a thief committing crimes, right? But he's doing it for a good reason because he doesn't have all this money or whatever. He's trying to, you know, feed himself or something like that. So it's almost like that same idea where the underdog is like, brother, everything's stacked against him. You gotta let him slide in so mu- so many things because, right, he's over here trying these over, these favorites over here. They should do everything perfect because everything's in their favor.

• 1:31:19Jocko Willink?

  You know what this encompasses to is the idea of punching down.

• 1:31:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:31:22Jocko Willink?

  Right? This is just full on punching down.

• 1:31:24Speaker 01

  Full on.

• 1:31:25Jocko Willink?

  Like I, you can make fun of anyone that's above you.

• 1:31:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:28Jocko Willink?

  But you can't make fun of someone that's below you.

• 1:31:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:30Jocko Willink?

  Not allowed to do that.

• 1:31:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:32Jocko Willink?

  Or you'll look like bad.

• 1:31:33Speaker 01

  Bad, yeah.

• 1:31:34Jocko Willink?

  Looks stupid.

• 1:31:35Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:31:36Jocko Willink?

  Right on. Um, the third concept is that the I O message comes across much more convincingly when it's delivered by a local leader rather than a Western spokesman. Whenever possible, the United States should engage in friendly sheiks, imams, elders, and elected officials to disseminate I O themes. Very good information there. Asymmetric military operations, it just talks about comprised direct action, unconventional warfare, anti-terrorism, counterinsurgency, psychological operations, civil military operations, foreign internal defense, and special reconnaissance. And this is interesting because this is my whole adult life was all that right there. Especially that then that's what they say is ironically, this used to be a special operations command, but now the rest of the military is doing it.

• 1:32:21Jocko Willink?

  And he wrote that in 2006, they're GTG now, good to go. Asymmetric economic operations, the most visual asymmetric economic operation is development and reconstruction, foreign aid, trade policy, and foreign direct investment also play vital roles in waging asymmetric economic operations in a war where the population is the objective, the target population must be able to see and understand the tangible benefit for supporting the side with the asymmetric advantage and to see the A and understand the material advantage disadvantage for supporting the asymmetric enemy. This is why we spent a ton of money, I'm talking about myself in Iraq, trying to help

• 1:33:04Jocko Willink?

  them build, repave roads and put in irrigation ditches and re-roof the school, like we did all that stuff, trying to let them see, hey, there's an economic advantage if you get on board with what we're doing. Speaking of advantage, leveraging asymmetric advantage, finding the side of an asymmetric war that wields the asymmetric advantage must understand how to leverage that advantage against the enemy, obviously. Cultural asymmetry, cultural asymmetry is one of the hardest concepts to grasp, but is one of the most crucial in an asymmetric war. Cultural asymmetry is not new to American forces. During the development and reconstruction phase during World War II, when the Allies were rebuilding Japan, General Douglas MacArthur exhibited a keen grasp of cultural asymmetry

• 1:33:49Jocko Willink?

  when he allowed Japan to keep its emperor rather than punishing him as a war criminal, even though the concept of an emperor ran counter to American values. That's such a great example. It's like, hey, look, we don't do emperors over here, but we that's your guy. And it's gonna be a lot easier if he just get if he's putting out the word.

• 1:34:08Jocko Willink?

  You know, this is a huge mistake that we made in America with the dis- disbanding the Ba'ath party and disassembling the Iraqi army. When all those people like, hey, got a new leader now, get on board with what we're doing. That would have been much, much easier, but we didn't listen to what McCarthy did. Asymmetric asymmetry of values. Bismarck statement that the strong is the weak because of his moral scruples and the weak grow stronger because of his audacity. Refer to the cultural asymmetry of values, norms and rules. The West believes that it's a values, that it values life too greatly to employ suicide as a political or military tactic. Suicide terrorists see themselves as sacrificing their lives to achieve legitimate military goals.

• 1:34:49Jocko Willink?

  And in the context of the terrorist suicides of Islamic extremists to reap commensurate rewards in heaven. Just totally different, totally different viewpoint.

• 1:35:00Jocko Willink?

  And by the way, just FYI, a lot of those suicide bombers. Hey, in Iraq, when I was in Iraq and Ramadi, a lot of those suicide bombers were not doing it.

• 1:35:13Jocko Willink?

  They didn't sign a piece of paper that's like, I'm doing this of my own free will right now. A lot of them, they their family was gonna get killed, like they were, they were being held hostage, basically. I don't know what percentage, maybe I shouldn't say a lot, but there that was definitely a thing. A very common thing was like these kids, their family would get taken hostage. They say, well, kill your parents, you gotta drive this freaking truck in here. So you might as well just get on board and say, I'll Akbar and get it done.

• 1:35:42Jocko Willink?

  Asymmetry of norms. The West has gone to great lengths to legitimize acts of warfare by identifying combatants and noncombatants. However, if a non-Western culture vilifies an entire group of people for committing economic and political as well as military atrocities, then they can view the people working in the World Trade Center on 11 September 2001 as combatants. Whereas the West justifiably identifies them as innocent noncombatants. Once again, the West need not accept the enemy's norms. Strategists must simply attempt to understand them so strategy can be focused accordingly. Boom.

• 1:36:21Jocko Willink?

  They're gonna think different. They are different than we are. They have a different culture than we have. We have to put that into the calculus.

• 1:36:31Jocko Willink?

  Also, in the Muslim culture, loyalty is placed above honesty when weighing one's honor. Found that out.

• 1:36:41Jocko Willink?

  I would find that out because a Iraqi officer would be like, yeah, the common example I give, yep. I'd say, can you bring 20 guys on the operation tomorrow? They'd be like, yep.

• 1:36:53Jocko Willink?

  Then they show up with three. What happened? Well, I was trying to support you, but it's not happening. Right?

• 1:37:01Speaker 01

  That's so crazy how it plays out, you know, that that kind of stuff. It's like, it's essentially the most basic level of miscommunication, like not intentionally.

• 1:37:11Jocko Willink?

  Not miscommunication. It's a, it's a cultural freaking difference.

• 1:37:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's kind of like sarcasm. And, and you can kind of think about this and trip out how, how often this should happen, but doesn't. But the smallest little thing can jam up communication. That's why text messaging can jam you up, by the way. Where? So if it, let's say you're not used to sarcasm. Let's say you'd never even, you know, whatever fantasy world, you've never heard even heard of sarcasm. Meanwhile, like, you know, you got guys like Andy Stumpf and, you know, these guys were like, that's literally their first language, you know? And then it's like, you can't understand what they're saying. Literally, they'll say one thing and then it'll mean literally the opposite if you don't know that, you know? Or if it's like, hey, I was only joking, you know? So it's like, whatever you said before that, if,

• 1:38:02Speaker 01

  if they didn't think you were joking, that's saying something completely different than if you did know they were joking. And then that's not to mention where it's like, hey, I'm gonna say something I'm not joking. I read your reaction. Now I say I'm joking. It's like a flip flop. So it's like, bro, how do you even communicate with people? You know, you gotta be on the same page is what I'm saying, you know? So man, if you have your whole culture that's different.

• 1:38:23Jocko Willink?

  Probably you're gonna lack some understanding for sure. And if you don't, if you're not aware of that, that's where it causes problems. Sure.

• 1:38:32Jocko Willink?

  Asymmetry of rules asymmetric enemies are bound by neither the laws of land warfare nor the Geneva Conventions. They routinely directly violate actions against civilians or direct violent actions against civilians. They use terrorists of tactics of terror and horrific images. Many terrorists and insurgents are also willing to sacrifice their own lives for their cause in a suicide strike. All of these must be weighed when planning to fight an asymmetric enemy. No atrocity is beyond the enemy's capability. This is so important. I like the thing must be weighed when planning to fight an asymmetric enemy because you're sitting there going, oh, we'll do this and then they'll have this reaction. No, they won't. You don't know what reaction they're gonna have. They don't care about rules. They don't care about how many people that you kill of theirs. You don't, they don't care if you kill civilians.

• 1:39:16Jocko Willink?

  They don't care about any of that. They kill civilians. They don't care. You kill civilians. They don't care. It's just they don't care. They're totally different. And if you're not ready for that, if you're not putting that in calculus, you're gonna have problems. By the way, it's really difficult to predict that. We've made all kinds of mistakes thinking that they're thinking like we're thinking and they're not. Understanding the target population when waging a population centric war strategist must identify the values and norms of the target population. These may be very different from those of the enemy and if so must be exploited.

• 1:39:51Jocko Willink?

  And this is the, this is the really important situation here. Information operations. Cultural asymmetry is crucial in waging information warfare. As previously stated, information warfare is waged whenever any Western spokesperson makes a public statement and anytime the West acts or fails to act in a given situation. Often Western, Western leaders make statements for their own benefit and without consideration of their impact on this war's target population. And this was such a good point. Statements such as, I would rather fight them over there than over here. Telling Iraqi who's deciding whether to support the insurgents that the

• 1:40:34Jocko Willink?

  goal of the United States is to make Iraq his home and unending battleground.

• 1:40:40Jocko Willink?

  Courses on communicating with the Muslim world can can and should be taught to any Western spokesperson. That's such a great thought. I never thought of that before. I never really said that before. I've never been one of those guys like, hey, it's better to fight him over, better to fight him over there than over here. And it makes sense. When you're in America, you're like, yeah, hell yeah. But if you're in Iraq, you're like, what are you talking about? Over here. This is my, this is where I live. Why do you want to fight him here? I don't want to fight him here. If you're here fighting, that's going to do damage to my home.

• 1:41:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. Every day, all day, by the way.

• 1:41:10Jocko Willink?

  Every day, all day? And that's what your goal is? No, I don't want you here. Get out.

• 1:41:15Speaker 01

  Makes sense.

• 1:41:17Jocko Willink?

  Asymmetric costs. Galula quite eloquently explains that there is a tremendous cost to asymmetry in counter insurgency warfare. This is true in all types of asymmetric warfare. Quote, disorder is cheap to create and very costly to prevent. Because we cannot escape the responsibility of maintaining order, the ratio of expenses between us and the asymmetric enemy are high. Because of the disparity in cost and effort, the asymmetric enemy can thus accept a protracted war. We should not. The asymmetric enemy is fluid because he has neither responsibility nor concrete assets. We are rigid because we have both. Gosh, that's important

• 1:41:55Jocko Willink?

  to think about. From a book from 1964. Called Counter Insurgency. Dude, what do we do? Why are we not reading this? Asymmetric cost encompasses assets at stake, cost of asymmetric defense, cost of undertaking action, and the asymmetric costs and nature of information operations. And you know what? Dude, it's not just about reading and understanding this. We just have a tendency to be like, oh, yeah, well, this is going to go our way. When war is not like that. War is just like random. Oh, sure, you can control this. No. You can control what, what percentage can you control? I don't know what number you want to throw on it. But there's

• 1:42:36Jocko Willink?

  a huge percentage that you can't control. You cannot control. A huge percentage that you cannot control. And yet we go into wars thinking we can control all these variables that we actually have no control over. That's why we end up getting in stupid wars. Because someone thinks that we can, oh, it's going to go the way I planned it. That's what's going to happen. No, it's not going to happen.

• 1:43:01Jocko Willink?

  Assets at stake as stated previously, a nation state that goes to war places many assets at risk, population, land and interest. A non-state actors or an insurgent's only cost, only asset is his idea. He has no land or population. They have nothing.

• 1:43:18Jocko Willink?

  Cost of defense, as Galula noted, disorder is cheap to create and very costly to prevent. It's cheap for an insurgent to bomb a bridge, but expensive for a counter insurgent to guard all the bridges. We've seen it's cheap for Al Qaeda to hijack airplanes, but expensive for the United States to maintain air security. It's cheap to mail anthrax, but expensive to screen the mail. Cost of undertaking action, also as Galula states, to be effective, a counter insurgent's forces must be 10 or 20 times the size of the insurgents. This lends itself to the asymmetric cost of defense. An insurgent can afford to wait and he chooses where to strike. The drawn out nature of a counter insurgency makes it extremely costly. However, as stated

• 1:44:02Jocko Willink?

  under information operations, failure to act in a given situation loses more of the population to the insurgency. So when you don't do anything, you lose even more.

• 1:44:13Jocko Willink?

  Information operations, information operations holds a position under asymmetric cost due to the costs associated with conducting information operations in an asymmetric war. The enemy can base his entire IO campaign on rumor, propaganda and conspiracy theories. The West can only base theirs on concrete actions and they are judged very harshly when they fail to act.

• 1:44:41Jocko Willink?

  It's rough.

• 1:44:42Speaker 01

  It is rough.

• 1:44:42Jocko Willink?

  It's easy to be that dude sitting in the back of the room throwing darts, right? And they actually have a huge advantage.

• 1:44:48Speaker 01

  Massive, yeah.

• 1:44:49Jocko Willink?

  And the other person, the favorite, has to like, even when they engage, it still costs them. Cause now they're punching down.

• 1:45:00Speaker 01

  Oh yeah.

• 1:45:01Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. But failure to do anything can also be harshly judged.

• 1:45:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:45:06Jocko Willink?

  There's a lot of advantages to be the, to being the insurgent.

• 1:45:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:45:10Jocko Willink?

  That's why there's such tough wars to fight.

• 1:45:14Jocko Willink?

  And I'm going to close this book out or close this paper out.

• 1:45:19Jocko Willink?

  And I'm going to kind of fast forward here a bit, but there's an assessment that he makes. And again, this is an assessment from 2006, but it's definitely worth noting.

• 1:45:30Jocko Willink?

  He says this, "The West is currently at a turning, turning point," again, 2006. "The United States could turn this war into a victory or it could dissolve into a defeat simply because the nation fails to recognize the war it is fighting. Asymmetric warfare is waged differently by each side and the victor is not preordained. It can be won, but not by blindly charging into the fray, chasing terrorists without concern for the effect on the population, because the population is the true objective for each side. The first step in winning a war is knowing the type of war one is fighting. By understanding asymmetric warfare and its policy implications, the United States will be able to effectively coordinate its actions to achieve victory."

• 1:46:15Jocko Willink?

  So there you go.

• 1:46:18Jocko Willink?

  And that was a huge piece, you know, when, and I talked about this when, um, when General McFarland was on and I talked about it with Leif, you know, I was lucky enough to read the counter insurgency manual that came out just as we were going on deployment. And that idea of security for the populace and securing the local populace was such a huge paradigm shift in my head. Like, oh, that's what our goal is. This isn't about taking terrain. This isn't about going street to street. This isn't about taking this building or that building. It wasn't even about setting up combat outpost. The setting up the combat outpost wasn't to take the terrain. It was to secure the populace. It was to protect the locals in the city. Now, did you have to seize the train to do it? Yes, but that wasn't the goal.

• 1:47:04Jocko Willink?

  The goal was to protect the populace. And this individual, David Buffalo, was putting this word out in 2006. It came out in September of 2006. So he was putting this out.

• 1:47:17Jocko Willink?

  He was probably writing this while we were in Ramadi fighting and he identified these things. So, very interesting, very interesting paper, very interesting. And again, not just from a warfare perspective, but it's really a mindset for all of us and you and I touched on some of these mindsets of to reframe what you're doing, to reframe, reframe the fight that you're in, the battle that you're engaging in. There's an old SEAL saying of like never fight fair. Like, I don't want to get in a fair fight. I don't want to get in a fair fight.

• 1:47:51Speaker 01

  Hard.

• 1:47:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. I mean, I want to be able to cheat. And we've actually talked about that before. They teach you if you ain't cheating, you ain't trying, but there's some limitations to that, right? Because now you're doing things that you might should not be doing.

• 1:48:08Jocko Willink?

  Cheating means bending the rules. Sometimes you have to bend the rules. But I think what's even better than that is what asymmetric warfare means you're going to play a different game.

• 1:48:22Jocko Willink?

  Let's play a different game. Let's not just try in Ramadi, let's not just try and kill the insurgents. Let's, let's try and win the populace. Let's try and get them to fight the war. Then it's not us anymore. So, keep that in mind. This is how you get strategic wins in life. And you might lose some tactical battles, but if you focus on what you can do over time strategically by playing the game that you have an advantage in, then you can win. And that's what I recommend. And with that, speaking of being strategic.

• 1:49:07Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:49:09Jocko Willink?

  We want to be strategic with our health.

• 1:49:12Speaker 01

  Well, when you think about it, if you're focused on your health, if you, if you view life as a, you know, combination of collaboration and competition.

• 1:49:24Jocko Willink?

  Is this your concept?

• 1:49:26Speaker 01

  Well.

• 1:49:26Jocko Willink?

  Collaboration and competition?

• 1:49:28Speaker 01

  What?

• 1:49:28Jocko Willink?

  It's both happening?

• 1:49:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, hell yeah.

• 1:49:30Jocko Willink?

  Okay. I like it.

• 1:49:32Speaker 01

  Um, well.

• 1:49:32Jocko Willink?

  I've heard you talk about this before.

• 1:49:34Speaker 01

  Well, you know, I go deep.

• 1:49:35Jocko Willink?

  Been contemplating?

• 1:49:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:49:38Speaker 01

  Anyway, if you do view it like, like that, as far as the competition part, there are certain things that you can do for yourself voluntarily

• 1:49:48Speaker 01

  that does create asymmetry in your favor.

• 1:49:50Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:49:51Speaker 01

  See what I'm saying?

• 1:49:52Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:49:52Speaker 01

  Exercise is one of those things.

• 1:49:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:54Speaker 01

  How you are, can you at work outperform someone who's too tired? Doesn't feel good?

• 1:50:00Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:50:01Speaker 01

  Too weak? No stamina?

• 1:50:04Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:50:04Speaker 01

  Always gotta take a nap all the time? Always not feeling like it?

• 1:50:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:08Speaker 01

  Oh, can't, can't finish up?

• 1:50:11Jocko Willink?

  Oh, this person's a victim.

• 1:50:13Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:50:13Jocko Willink?

  They're going down.

• 1:50:14Speaker 01

  It's, it's a lot easier to win in the, in the event of competition.

• 1:50:18Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:50:18Speaker 01

  It's a lot easier to win against someone like that versus someone who's not like that. See what I'm saying? That's what health, fitness, exercise, all this stuff, that's what it does for us.

• 1:50:26Jocko Willink?

  So we're working out?

• 1:50:27Speaker 01

  We're working out.

• 1:50:27Jocko Willink?

  We're lifting.

• 1:50:28Speaker 01

  We're lifting.

• 1:50:29Jocko Willink?

  We're running.

• 1:50:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, we're running.

• 1:50:30Jocko Willink?

  We're training.

• 1:50:31Speaker 01

  Metcons all day.

• 1:50:33Jocko Willink?

  And we need proper fuel.

• 1:50:35Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 1:50:35Jocko Willink?

  What fuel do you recommend, Echo Charles?

• 1:50:37Speaker 01

  Jocko Fuel all day.

• 1:50:38Jocko Willink?

  All day?

• 1:50:38Speaker 01

  All day.

• 1:50:39Jocko Willink?

  All day. All day. That's what we're doing all day in the morning. In the morning, we're taking Super Krill. In the morning, we're taking Joint Warfare. In the morning? I'm taking Time War. Do you take Time War in the morning?

• 1:50:52Speaker 01

  I don't take Time War in the morning. I take, uh, my main, every single day, non-negotiable, as one might say, is creatine and hydrate.

• 1:51:00Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:51:00Speaker 01

  Pack, that's the routine.

• 1:51:01Jocko Willink?

  In the morning?

• 1:51:02Speaker 01

  In the morning.

• 1:51:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. You're getting jacked on that creatine, huh?

• 1:51:05Speaker 01

  Hell, yeah.

• 1:51:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, so we start it all day.

• 1:51:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:09Jocko Willink?

  Lunchtime, maybe we're having a milk. Maybe early afternoon, maybe we're having a go. Need a little bit of that energy. Maybe you had some pre-workout, I don't know. You might have.

• 1:51:18Speaker 01

  Is, have you been, is go a thing in the morning?

• 1:51:21Jocko Willink?

  N- I will not have a go. Generally speaking, until around ten. Now, when I was up at the council, I was having, because I was briefing in the morning at eight o'clock. I was having one at seven forty.

• 1:51:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, a lot of people replace their coffee with that, which I I understand. Some people really like the coffee, so they'll do the coffee thing then, you know, early, uh, sorry, early noonish or whatever, early afternoon, boom, go.

• 1:51:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, a lot of people are really just killing, kind of killing two birds with one stone with that coffee milk, which has ninety five milligrams of caffeine and thirty grams of protein. What a win that is. People, that's become like a staple in people's lives right now.

• 1:52:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, and yeah, you make sense. I mean, it makes sense because you know how like they'll go to like the coffee shop, right? And get the sweet fricking coffee, whatever.

• 1:52:11Jocko Willink?

  Seen those things where they show like how many sugar cubes are going in one of those Starbucks rapachinos or whatever they are?

• 1:52:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I haven't seen that particular one, but that makes sense because it's it's very easy to do this if you seek this out. Seek out like how many calories and what kind of calories are in, I don't know, whatever you want to see and those start, those, whether it be from Starbucks, wherever. These, these things that we get in the morning. If you break down the calories and macros, bro, you'll be alarmed. If you care about that kind of stuff. Yeah, bro, I went to, um, this is side note, so I went to a, I don't want to put the restaurant on blast because it's a restaurant that we all know. So we go there as like a thing, it was by the hotel, right? In Hawaii, Honolulu, so we go and we sit down and I'm like, you know, I'm trying to fricking stay on the deal, you know, stay on the path, I'm not going to cut loose too hardcore. Don't care where I am.

• 1:53:02Speaker 01

  Nonetheless, so I look at the menu and this, they did us the service of putting, you know, sometimes I'll put the calories.

• 1:53:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, wait, macros or just calories?

• 1:53:10Speaker 01

  Calories overall, you know. Um, so, bro, so I'm like, you know, I'm gonna stick with something light. I'm gonna get a Caesar salad, I'll put the dressing on side, whatever, you know, that's the move or whatever a lot of times. So Caesar salad, you know, all good, I'll add some chicken on there, we'll be solid. I'm not going to get the fricking double, triple, uh, cheese blend pasta, Parmesan, fricking chicken, whatever, I'm gonna get the salad. It was eighteen hundred seventy five calories.

• 1:53:35Jocko Willink?

  Damn.

• 1:53:36Speaker 01

  For a salad. Yes, sir.

• 1:53:37Jocko Willink?

  For a Caesar salad with grilled chicken grilled chicken?

• 1:53:40Speaker 01

  Caesar salad, yeah grilled chicken. Well, I don't know. I I don't remember what kind of chicken is. I don't know that it said grilled chicken, but I'm assuming most Caesar salads I have don't have freaking fried chicken in it. Nonetheless. Bro, it was alarming.

• 1:53:54Jocko Willink?

  That's crazy.

• 1:53:54Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. And so and the point is, it's like restaurants most most of the time aren't necessarily focused on like, hey, let's get you what you need. It's more like, hey, let's get you what tastes good, what you want right now, you know, kind of a thing. And these coffee scenarios, that's no exceptions.

• 1:54:10Jocko Willink?

  Same thing.

• 1:54:11Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:54:12Jocko Willink?

  Careful, man.

• 1:54:12Speaker 01

  We left the restaurant, by the way, left.

• 1:54:14Jocko Willink?

  You didn't even go, you didn't even order?

• 1:54:16Speaker 01

  Stood up and left, hundred percent.

• 1:54:18Jocko Willink?

  Where'd you go?

• 1:54:19Speaker 01

  We went to, it was like a, you know, one of those food or later on, I mean, what was our secondary?

• 1:54:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:54:24Speaker 01

  It was like we found this food court, which was kind of cool.

• 1:54:26Jocko Willink?

  And you were able to dial in what?

• 1:54:28Speaker 01

  Caesar salad. I got a Caesar salad from this other place. Yeah, a pizza place, by the way.

• 1:54:32Jocko Willink?

  And did they have the caloric count there? Or did you just go ignorance is bliss? Cause I think.

• 1:54:41Speaker 01

  It was ignorance is bliss for sure. But it was more simple. Cause so look, a a lot of time that like the, if you go to a certain restaurants, they try to make it taste good and gourmet and they add this nah, and this is our special sauce, you know, and it's like, bro, the special sauce, they put like a bunch of stuff in there. And the, you know, whatever they cook the chicken in, they put it, you know, there's all these extra ingredients to make it extra palatable and all this other stuff. Right? Versus you go to like a simple pizza place, or if you make it at home, by the way, it's like, bro, we're not, we're not that well versed in all this culinary stuff to make it taste good.

• 1:55:12Jocko Willink?

  Making Caesar's out dressing.

• 1:55:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:55:15Jocko Willink?

  And it is on.

• 1:55:15Speaker 01

  All homemade dressing.

• 1:55:16Jocko Willink?

  All homemade homemade dressing at its own point.

• 1:55:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, a lot of times that's the best.

• 1:55:20Jocko Willink?

  Actually, Rana originated that whole jam. Like she started making it and the whole family was like, we need more of this.

• 1:55:26Speaker 01

  What's the main ingredient in Caesar?

• 1:55:28Jocko Willink?

  I don't know.

• 1:55:28Speaker 01

  Come on, bro, you gotta find that kind of stuff out. Nonetheless.

• 1:55:31Jocko Willink?

  We'll, we'll, we'll put it up, you know, on the show notes. Caesar.

• 1:55:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:55:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:38Speaker 01

  But what I'm saying is you can mitigate it. Um, and really the, the main point there is, bro, you gotta watch out.

• 1:55:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. You know what's really good is just preemptively, when you're going somewhere, just have a mulk on the way out the door. Like you'll just be so much better off in life.

• 1:55:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:55:55Jocko Willink?

  Before you go out, you just grab a mulk and you're just good to go. Cause let's face it, your, your hunger is satiated by at least half. With one mulk, like at least half of your hunger is gone and you just got 30 grams of protein. So you, when you're rolling out, cause there's some scenarios, you roll in there, you're not even looking at that calorie thing. You're like, bro, bringing on.

• 1:56:15Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:56:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. You're gonna go right off the path.

• 1:56:17Speaker 01

  Yes, sir, you will.

• 1:56:18Jocko Willink?

  And that's kind of a wild, what, what did it cheat? Did they have like, did it have calories for like a cheeseburger and fries on this menu?

• 1:56:25Speaker 01

  Well, they didn't have cheeseburgers and fries, but they, yes, they did have the certain pasta dishes.

• 1:56:30Jocko Willink?

  And what was it?

• 1:56:30Speaker 01

  Twenty one hundred for one.

• 1:56:33Jocko Willink?

  Pasta dish be twenty one hundred, but a damn Caesar salad is eighteen hundred.

• 1:56:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. I don't know. I'm not the chef, so I don't know what they put in that.

• 1:56:40Jocko Willink?

  Interesting. We'll have to, we'll have to talk to some of our people and see what's going on with that.

• 1:56:44Speaker 01

  Well, I would imagine that, that olive oil or, you know, these high calorie count things are like a big time ingredient in a lot of this stuff. For sure. But yeah, that's real though. But the good thing Jocko Field that, that they focus on different things, you know, or so, uh, how should I say, we focus on different.

• 1:57:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. It just gives you this, the options, man, for the cleanliness and the goodness. Uh, yeah. So that's what we're doing. Mulk, uh, drinking a hydrate right now. And by the way, the hydrate, if you've got a sweet tooth, if you really want to gratify your sweet tooth, get, get the fruit, fruit punch, RTD hydrate. It is sweet, but there's no sugar in it. It's sweetened with Jocko Good sweetener, by the way, trademark.

• 1:57:29Speaker 01

  Oh, for real?

• 1:57:30Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:30Speaker 01

  Oh, no shit. Okay.

• 1:57:31Jocko Willink?

  It's a whole blend that we figured out over the past five years to make stuff taste delicious. So yeah, the hydrate, the go, the mulk, what else?

• 1:57:40Speaker 01

  My daughter does roast you behind your back.

• 1:57:43Jocko Willink?

  On what?

• 1:57:43Speaker 01

  Hydrate.

• 1:57:44Jocko Willink?

  And what, what about it?

• 1:57:45Speaker 01

  So this is what she, she'll say, see, I'll, I'll see if you can figure it, figure it out. She goes, uh, all the time. She's like, she's like, oh, you know what's cool about this is that it's clear. You know why? Cause it's clean.

• 1:57:59Jocko Willink?

  Oh.

• 1:57:59Speaker 01

  And she says that like, that's like some big joke. So anything that's clear, she'll be like, look, it's clear. And then like the, the long pause, you know, and then we, everyone laughs or whatever. And she goes, cause it's clean.

• 1:58:10Jocko Willink?

  Did I do that in the video or something?

• 1:58:12Speaker 01

  You did.

• 1:58:12Jocko Willink?

  All right. Well, well, talk to her offline. Get that straightened out.

• 1:58:16Speaker 01

  No, man.

• 1:58:16Jocko Willink?

  You're roasting me.

• 1:58:17Speaker 01

  But it lands every single time it lands, every single time.

• 1:58:20Jocko Willink?

  That's good. Uh, yep. So check out jockofuel.com or go to Wawa, go to Vitamin Shoppe, go to GNC, go to Military Commissaries, go to Afees, Hanfords, Dash Stores in Maryland, Wakefern, ShopRite, HEB down in Texas, Meyer in the Midwest, Harris Teeter, Wegmans, Lifetime Fitness, Shields and small gyms in here, everywhere, jujitsu gyms, CrossFit gyms. If you want to help out or if you want to get Jocko Fuel into your gym, email J F sales at jockofuel.com. We can make that happen. Also, you need clothing. Don't get clothing from the people we're in an economic war with, which would be China, which would be most of the clothes that you might be wearing right now. If you're not getting your clothes from originusa.com,

• 1:59:03Jocko Willink?

  where we get the fabric from America, we get the leather from America, the zippers are from America, the thread is from America. It's all from America. And we have everything that you need, jeans, uh, khaki pants. We have hooded sweatshirts. We have workout gear. We have hunt gear. We got everything that you need. And it's all made a hundred percent in America. There's a new version of our workout gear. That's freaking outstanding. It's the best you can get. Achieved. So check that out. Um, originusa.com. Get yourself the clothing that you need and get it

• 1:59:47Jocko Willink?

  from America.

• 1:59:50Jocko Willink?

  Also, we have a training camp for law enforcement, first responders, 27th through the 31st in Maine. It's jujitsu based, but we've got a bunch of police officers and military people that are black belts in jujitsu that are going to teach courses. We're also going to cover some leadership stuff with JP from Esalen Front. So we've got a great stuff. If you want to check that out, all of that, go to originusa.com.

• 2:00:15Speaker 01

  Also, Jaco's store called Jaco's store. Discipline equals freedom, t-shirts and hats and hoodies. This is, uh, yeah, if you, when you're representing on the path, as you create asymmetry in your warfare, competition position, you want to represent, that's where you can get your stuff. Good, the idea of good, people seem to like that one. We've got kids stuff out, by the way, new kids stuff, just launched, by the way.

• 2:00:39Jocko Willink?

  Check it out.

• 2:00:40Speaker 01

  Right, it's pretty solid. The kids seem to like it, is what I'm saying. So yeah, discipline equals freedom, good, says good, like, have you seen it? Did you see it?

• 2:00:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it looks like a kid wrote it.

• 2:00:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, only one part of it, though. So it says good in the, you know, the iconic, and then, um, it kinda, if you look close, it has like, you know, when you're learning to write the freaking lines or whatever, if you look close, and then, yeah, below it says you learned in like freaking handwriting. It's pretty good, I think it came out good.

• 2:01:08Jocko Willink?

  Check out the creativity.

• 2:01:09Speaker 01

  Anyway, check that out. It's all on jacostore.com. Also, the short locker on jacostore.com still. It's called the short locker, new shirt every, uh, every month, subscription scenario, new design, last month or this past month, which is June. Thinking strategically. And on the front, it says all the time.

• 2:01:29Jocko Willink?

  Look at that.

• 2:01:31Speaker 01

  Then it has the man, you know, the thinking man statue, you know, you remember that? That's in the back. Anyway, it's just good, you know, we're doing some, some little bit, uh, different type designs, um, you know, a little more, uh, outside the box sometimes. But nonetheless, called the short locker, it's on jacostore.com. Check that out. If you, you know, you like something, get something.

• 2:01:48Jocko Willink?

  Speaking of get something, get some steak. Go to primalbeef.com or coloradocraftbeef.com. Get yourself some freaking awesome steak made from awesome cows from awesome American companies. Primalbeef.com, coloradocraftbeef.com. Check them out. Also subscribe to the podcast. Also subscribe to Jaco Underground. We're getting ready to record one of those right now. We have YouTube. Check those out. One for, for what? Jocko Podcast, one for Jaco Fuel,

• 2:02:18Speaker 01

  Two for Jaco.

• 2:02:19Jocko Willink?

  Origin USA. Oh, two for Jocko Podcast.

• 2:02:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, so.

• 2:02:22Jocko Willink?

  Oh, we have a clips one now.

• 2:02:24Speaker 01

  Clips one.

• 2:02:24Jocko Willink?

  You finally got in the game. Dude, we went around for eight years. You're like, oh, make a clips one.

• 2:02:29Speaker 01

  Well, well, technically, we, you know, that's like one of those things where you do have to ask like, okay, why? Like, why would we do that? You know? So, yeah, sure, that's the normal. I get it, you know? But there's technically, we have underground stuff on Jocko Podcast, the official, right? We have Jocko Podcast full episodes. We have shorts, like shorts on Jaco. And then, uh,

• 2:02:55Speaker 01

  underground stuff, clips from the underground.

• 2:02:58Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 2:02:59Speaker 01

  That's on Jaco. So it started to get a little bit, you know? And then not to mention the, uh, you know, freaking enhanced videos, all these other things that are on Jaco. Give you like that all crazy. Anyway, it started to get crowded.

• 2:03:12Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:03:13Speaker 01

  So now, if you, if we can have just cool clips from the podcast, whatever, that can be on their separate channel, whatever. So, you know, it can be kind of, kind of organized a little bit better. So I.

• 2:03:21Jocko Willink?

  So what's it called?

• 2:03:23Speaker 01

  Jocko Podcast Clips.

• 2:03:24Jocko Willink?

  Damn, original. And Echelon Front also has a, has a YouTube channel. Uh, Psychological Warfare, check that out. Flipsidecanvas.com. Dakota Meyer selling still cool stuff to hang on your wall. I've written a bunch of books about leadership. I've written a bunch of books about, I've written a bunch of kids books. I wrote a novel called Final Spin. Anyways, check any of those out. I wrote a book about discipline called Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual. The Way of the Warrior Kid books. Movie coming in a year, but get ahead of that. Don't wait a year to get your kids on the path. Get them on there now. Mikey and the Dragons, often called the best kids book ever.

• 2:04:03Speaker 01

  I know.

• 2:04:04Jocko Willink?

  At least I call it that often.

• 2:04:07Jocko Willink?

  Extreme Ownership, Dichotomy Leadership, About Face by Hackworth. Echelon Front, we solve problems through leadership. It's our leadership consultancy. If you need help inside your organization, go to echelonfront.com. We will set up a program for your company, or you can bring people from your company to one of our events. Our next big event is the muster in Dallas, which is 16 to 18 October 2024. Also, we have the Women's Assembly, September 11th through September 13th in San Antonio, Texas. We also have an online training academy for life. If you want to get better at life, go to extremeownership.com. We will give you the skills. And if you want to help service members, active and retired, you want to help their families, you want to help Gold Star families,

• 2:04:50Jocko Willink?

  check out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee. She's got an incredible charity organization. If you want to donate or you want to get involved, go to Americas Mighty Warriors.org. Also, don't forget about Micah Fink up in Montana with Heroes and Horses.org. And finally, Jimmy May's organization, BeyondTheBrotherhood.org. Check some of those out.

• 2:05:13Jocko Willink?

  Also, if you want to connect with us, you can go to Jaco.com. Also, we're on social media.

• 2:05:20Jocko Willink?

  Echo is at Echo Charles. I'm at Jaco. Just be careful because there's an algorithm that will try and get you.

• 2:05:28Jocko Willink?

  Thanks to all of our military personnel out there around the world locked into numerous asymmetric battles and wars. Thank you for doing what you're doing so that we can do what we do. And the same goes to our police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, Border Patrol, Secret Service, as well as all other first responders. Thank you for doing what you do here at home to keep us safe. And everyone else out there,

• 2:06:00Jocko Willink?

  don't fight fair. In fact, don't even fight. Don't play by their rules. In fact, don't even play their game.

• 2:06:12Jocko Willink?

  Figure out where their weaknesses are. Figure out the game you should be playing.

• 2:06:20Jocko Willink?

  The game that you can win.

• 2:06:23Jocko Willink?

  Think strategic and find that path to victory.

• 2:06:30Jocko Willink?

  And that's all we've got for tonight. And until next time, this is Echo and Jaco out.