Pod Insights Jocko Podcast Jocko Underground: Are You Being Sociopathic? About this episode Are you a sociopath?
People not coming through VS Betrayal.
Which training methods best for becoming a Warrior.
Self doubt in light of a promotion at work.
Maintaining relationships virtually.
Getting over a break-up and self-destruction.
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Jocko Willink? This is the Jocko Underground Podcast, number 113, sitting with Echo Charles.
0:06 Jocko Willink? And I want to talk to you about sociopaths.
0:12 Jocko Willink? Which a sociopath is a person, and this is from the sort of dictionary type definition here. Sociopath is a person with antisocial behaviors, including being manipulative, aggressive, superficial, lacking empathy, irresponsible, dominant, deceptive, impulsive, and rude.
0:34 Jocko Willink? How do you fit into those categories? Do you, are you any of those? Me? Yeah. I don't think so. I beg to differ. You think I'm fit into this? I think we all are. Okay. That's why, that's why, that's why we're going to talk about this a little bit today. I understand. Because are there times when you lack empathy? Yes. Are there times when you're a little bit irresponsible? Are there some situations where you dominate what's happening in the room? Yeah. Can you be manipulative from time to time? Yes, sir. Okay, so you see what I'm saying? Yes. So, as I'm going through these, I'm like, oh, this is everybody. Yeah. Right? And what's interesting, I found that as I looked through these, I sort of looked at the, or compare them to the ideals that I talk about on a regular basis. And they are thankfully at odds with being a sociopath.
1:20 Jocko Willink? Can you, so, so, we all can do these things. We all have to watch out from a little bit. There's also times where you, like irresponsible, if you're never irresponsible, couldn't you, couldn't that, just like dichotomy of leadership, can you get to a point where you're not taking any risk because that's irresponsible? Right. And now you're not moving forward in life, you're not taking any chances to get anything done? Aren't there situations where you need to be a dominant player in the room? Yeah. Yeah, there are. Are there situations where you need to do some manipulation of somebody? Yes, there are. I've got a whole thing that I talked about years ago, about the, what's the true manipulation in leadership and that, how close they are. So there's all kinds of things that, that, there's all kinds of overlap, and there's all kinds of dichotomies here where we have to know what our tendencies are, and we have
2:05 Jocko Willink? to fight against those tendencies. But here's what sprung this on me, as I was, as I was reading some stuff about this, I was, there's a website called Psych Mechanics, psychmechanics.com, and they had a little section that was called Things Sociopaths Say.
2:22 Jocko Willink? One of them is I didn't do that. And it's so weird to read these things because as you read them, here's the thing, you're gonna know people that you know are not sociopaths, but you're definitely gonna have heard them say these things, right? Yeah. I didn't do that with a neutral, neutral emotion like I didn't do that. You ever had somebody that you're talking to, you said, well, you didn't, I didn't do that? Have you ever dealt with somebody like that? Yes, sir, I have. Then they, they can escalate that like I swear, I didn't do that. They're escalating it even more till I swear on my mother's grave that never happened, right? These are things that a sociopath says because they think they can just overpower you.
3:01 Jocko Willink? Here's the second example. It's not my fault, which is very interesting, right? This is clearly the opposite of the idea of extreme ownership,
3:13 Jocko Willink? which is what a sociopath is gonna do is try and avoid the blame, avoid the guilt, avoid the responsibility, and make it something else or someone else.
3:28 Jocko Willink? The similar one to the first one, I never said that. Also, you're imagining things. Also, you're crazy. Like, you're crazy. That never happened. Or you're, yeah, like, I never said that, which is, which is weird, which is a weird thing. Have you ever had somebody? That you know that they said something? And then they deny it? I had a situation with an email where somebody, I was having a conversation with someone, and they were making a claim.
3:59 Jocko Willink? And I was sort of, I was like, man, I, I was questioning myself. They made me question myself. Right? Because I, you know, I'm, I'm a humble person. I know I can be wrong. I know I can make mistakes. And I think to myself, geez, did I say that? Oh, wait a second. Well, that's the, that's what we were talking about doing?
4:19 Jocko Willink? And as I felt more and more like, wait a second. I do. I never had the feeling of I, yeah, I think I did. I never had that feeling, but I was like, man, could I have said something like that?
4:31 Speaker 01 Yeah.
4:31 Jocko Willink? Could I have been confused in the moment and said something like that? And that's what the person's running with? Turns out I had a follow-up email, which everything was exactly as I remembered. And I was like, I forwarded it. And I said, hey, here's, here's, here's what we were talking about.
4:46 Speaker 01 Yeah.
4:46 Jocko Willink? And they were like, oh, okay. But it was very strange.
4:50 Speaker 01 That's it? Oh, okay.
4:51 Jocko Willink? Well, it was a little bit more than that. It was very strange, though. It's a very strange situation to have unfold. Is, this is just, they're trying to tell you something. And look, if I wouldn't have had that, even this was this something that happened, you know, 10 years ago. Luckily, you got all those emails. You know, you got your whatever account and you got 15 years worth of emails. So when someone starts saying, you told me this, like, hmm, let's go to the data here. Let's go to the facts. But two important points. Number one, that person who also had that email was telling me that I said something completely different. And me,
5:33 Jocko Willink? I was sort of like, well, maybe I remembered it wrong. Could I have said that? I, I never got to the point where I was like, oh, I think I, it was very suspect to me. But I was at least open to it. And if I wouldn't have searched my emails in three seconds and found that email and said, actually, here's exactly what we talked about. So it's very strange that
5:54 Jocko Willink? people can get away with that. If there would have been, if there would have been an email backup, it, it would have been he said, she said, and this is what we're trying to, no one knows what the truth is.
6:04 Speaker 01 Wait, so just to kind of understand and recount. So they said, this person said that you said something? Or said you didn't say something and you did it?
6:12 Jocko Willink? Said, I, I, I forget whether it was said or did, but it was something that was, here's what we're doing. And said, I said, this is what we're doing. And I was like, man, I, and it was one of those things where it'd be like if, if. If you said to me, or if I said, hey Echo, you told me a while ago that you promised you wouldn't work out for three months. It wouldn't make sense to you. You'd be like, what context would I ever say that?
6:38 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah.
6:39 Jocko Willink? It was one of those things where it didn't make any sense at all.
6:42 Speaker 01 Right.
6:43 Jocko Willink? And even right now, you would be like, well, dude, I couldn't have said that, right?
6:49 Speaker 01 Yeah.
6:50 Jocko Willink? It just, just doesn't make sense.
6:51 Speaker 01 That answers the question.
6:52 Jocko Willink? But even then, if I was like, Echo, you told me you weren't gonna work out for three months. You told me that you weren't gonna do it. You'd be like, bro, and it wouldn't make sense to you, but you're kinda thinking, like, you know, we know each other and why would John be saying this? So it was one of those. And then you sent me the email like, hey, when we talked about this bet that we had or whatever.
7:09 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah.
7:10 Jocko Willink? You know, you, what I actually said was, whatever.
7:14 Speaker 01 Yeah.
7:14 Jocko Willink? The thing is, you know, I'll only work out four times a week for three months. You know, something like that.
7:18 Speaker 01 Yeah, fully. And the reason I ask is because there's a difference between someone is saying, hey, you said this and you're like, wait, I wouldn't say that. No, I didn't. And then you, then, then they say, oh, like, here's you saying it.
7:30 Jocko Willink? Yeah. And then on the other side is, you know, when I'm saying, you, you said this, and then you produce the email that says, no, actually, I didn't say that. What I should say, dude, I'm really sorry. Right? I was wrong. I must have misheard you, whatever. So that's something to watch out for. Especially if I'm gonna stick to my guns. Like, when someone sticks to their gun, I never said that. You're, and they actually, in this website, they had, this, this is gaslighting. Like, true gaslighting. You're imagining things. You're crazy. And which is really weird. Which is really weird when people are doing things intentionally to mess with you. It's pretty disturbing. Um, another one,
8:11 Jocko Willink? you're so sensitive. Okay? So this is a sociopathic thing to say. And again, am I calling everyone that's ever said that a sociopath? No, I've said this before. But what this indicates is that you don't see other people's perspectives. Which is the lacking empathy part? So when I say something, Echo, you're freaking bald, you look dumb, and you're like, dude, can you stop making fun of my hair? And I'm like, bro, you're so sensitive because I don't pick up on the perspective that you have, that you've always been made fun for being, whatever the case may be, right?
8:47 Jocko Willink? And it's also a way for a sociopath to dismiss other people's emotions and feelings. Is to be like, oh yeah, dude, they're all mad at me. You're so freaking sensitive. You heard that before?
9:00 Speaker 01 Yeah.
9:01 Jocko Willink? What that's someone trying to dismiss the fact that someone has emotions. So, hey, and like I said, these are things we all do. We all do these things. And what I'm saying is pay attention to them. Pay attention to those words when they're coming out of your mouth. They should at least be a little red flag. Oh, hold on a second. You know, when you're, you're talking about your kid, they're just being so sensitive about this. Hold on a second. I'm telling you to have a red flag that goes up that says, oh, wait a second. My kid is seven years old, 10 years old, nine years old, whatever.
9:40 Jocko Willink? It might be a little bit, they might be getting upset, not because they're sensitive, but because this is a big deal to them at this time, and I need to be able to understand that. So just watch out for it. Uh, who cares about tomorrow? This is another thing, would we just people that are being irresponsible? Again, have I ever said that?
9:57 Speaker 01 Yep.
9:58 Jocko Willink? Or something along those lines. This was an interesting one. This is, uh, I've never heard anyone say this, but I've seen it in actions. People are disposable. So people are disposable.
10:13 Jocko Willink? I've never heard someone say like, oh, the people are disposable, but I've seen people treat other people in a way that clearly they think that they're disposable. Clearly, like, oh, you know, oh, oh, I don't really care if they get in trouble, whatever. This is a, this is something to definitely pay attention to. If you're treating another person like they're disposable or like they're not a human, it's, it's a little red flag. You ever heard people talk about,
10:49 Jocko Willink? you know, like the way someone treats a waiter or the help is a real good indication of their actual character?
10:56 Speaker 01 Yeah.
10:56 Jocko Willink? I think this is like that.
10:57 Speaker 01 Yeah, that, that's feels right for sure.
11:01 Jocko Willink? Yeah. When someone rolls in and they freaking treat the doorman like a, like he's a. It's like it's like not human.
11:08 Speaker 01 Yeah.
11:09 Jocko Willink? Just watch out for those people. They got some sociopathic tendencies going on. By the way, if you do that, just check yourself. I'm asking you to please check yourself. Cause you can end up in a scenario that you don't want to be in.
11:23 Speaker 01 Yeah.
11:27 Speaker 01 Yeah, a lot of times too, that will, it is what it seems like, well, I'm remembering back to a few times where someone would treat and the waiter is, that's a good one. Cause we all go to restaurants from time to time, most of us. So that's like a common scenario to be in. And then um, thinking back to when I witnessed that.
11:44 Speaker 01 It's almost like they were trying to demonstrate their power, their status like above them, you know, to make themselves ultimately like look good. So it's like the idea of putting someone down to make your, to prop yourself up, make you look good.
12:00 Jocko Willink? And that's equal to or as bad, possibly worse, but it's in the same genre as I just don't even pay attention to you. Like you're just not even there.
12:08 Speaker 01 Yeah, however it look, however the.
12:10 Jocko Willink? Like someone hands you, you ever go into a place that they have like a coat, uh, you give your coat to somebody?
12:16 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah, fully. The club I worked at had that.
12:19 Jocko Willink? Okay, so someone walks into the bitter end and just like hands the coat.
12:23 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
12:24 Jocko Willink? And just takes the ticket and just doesn't even engage in any ways, the person that's taking the coat.
12:30 Speaker 01 Yeah, fully.
12:31 Jocko Willink? Gotta watch out for that, man. Don't be doing that. Don't listen. Watch out for A, B, don't be doing it.
12:38 Speaker 01 Yeah, and if you're a kind of a, you know, the word narcissism gets thrown around, so we'll use it. Let's say if you're, you have those narcissistic tendencies, even, even if you gotta use that in a way where to prop yourself up and make others look bad, you actually make yourself look bad. And not in this weird like, um, you know, moral, only the moral people will recognize, everyone recognizes it. Even probably even other like narcissistic people would be like, oh, bro, you kinda, like you kinda look like a dick. No one likes that. You know, no one's impressed with that, you know, kind of a thing. It's like, what's the opposite of being impressed? Like.
13:15 Speaker 01 Is there something?
13:16 Jocko Willink? The opposite of being impressed. You mean, so we're talking about you see somebody?
13:19 Speaker 01 Yeah, like you know how like if you did something that does pretty dope and I'm like, fuck, that's pretty impressive. What's the opposite of that? I mean, I know it's not depressed, but like-
13:27 Jocko Willink? I would just say like a loss of respect.
13:29 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah, it's like that feeling, so-
13:32 Jocko Willink? Diminished diminished respect.
13:34 Speaker 01 Diminished respect, yeah, it's like you looked diminished in in the same way you're trying to prop yourself up. And I think to pretty much everyone, it's a weird like, it's like, you know, like when you name drop, right? When you name drop, you're trying to like, associate your status with this person's status, you know, kind of a thing, but it like, it literally does the opposite. It's like that kind of thing.
13:52 Jocko Willink? I would do, I was talking to Joe Rogan the other day.
13:59 Speaker 01 No, actually, I wasn't talking to Joe Rogan the other day about anything.
14:05 Jocko Willink? Oh, what I was gonna say is, what you gotta, we've talked about this, the self-awareness of when you- So, that is a little excerpt of what we are doing on the Jocko Underground Podcast. So if you want to continue to listen,
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