Jocko Underground: Look In The Mirror. How Are You Representing Yourself?

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Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is the Jocko Underground Podcast, number 107, sitting here with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. I heard this idea, or this procedure, or this protocol, I guess restaurants and stores use this idea. They put a mirror behind the register, or behind the bar. Have you ever heard of this before? You worked in the bar? You ever heard of this? I know that there is a mirror back there, for sure. Okay, well, in a bar situation, like, there's reasons for it, that the bartender can turn his back to the bar, and he can see, like, still what's happening, right? See customers, someone stealing, or whatever. But then, then I heard there's another reason why they do that in

• 0:42Jocko Willink?

  certain places. And it's because it has a tendency to prevent people from yelling, or getting angry, or being rude, or acting irrational. And the reason is, because they can see themselves.

• 1:05Jocko Willink?

  And, look, I don't know. It kind of makes sense, though. You know what I mean? You ever seen someone that's doing something really stupid, and then they notice there's a security camera there?

• 1:20Jocko Willink?

  And here's the thing, when people see themselves, when people see themselves, they tend to kind of clean up the way they're acting, right? When you see yourselves on the outside, you don't, when you don't see, you don't have any perspective of what you look like to everyone else, and then all of a sudden, you see yourself acting like a idiot, or being rude, or being angry, or flying off the handle, or yelling at people, and you see it. That mirror is like a form of detachment. That's what it is. It's a form of detachment. Well, the thing that I'm always trying to explain to people how to do, is to say, hey, take a step back, take a breath, look around, make

• 2:01Jocko Willink?

  sure you're having a, make sure you're not letting your emotions get out of control, make sure you're not letting your ego get out of control, like, all these things that I talk about all the time. If you think about it, a mirror, if you have to see yourself?

• 2:15Jocko Willink?

  It might keep you in check. So, I, I, the reason I bring this up, it is just a good thing to think about, in my opinion, that

• 2:28Jocko Willink?

  if you can imagine what you look like, keep that in your mind. How are you behaving right now? How is it being perceived? What do you look like right now? Are you being a jerk? Hey, you know what one I used to think of? Is like, am I being a sissy right now? Like in the daves, right? Am I being a wimp? Am I being soft? Like, have you ever heard me say I'm cold?

• 2:51Speaker 01

  You're, no, I've

• 2:52Jocko Willink?

  You know what I mean?

• 2:53Speaker 01

  I've never heard you admit that you're cold, no.

• 2:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, exactly. So like, sure, have I, have you and I been in situations where we came in here and the, it was winter time and the freaking temp in the podcast zone was freaking 57 or whatever, we got to sit in here for four hours?

• 3:09Speaker 01

  And you got chicken

• 3:10Jocko Willink?

  And I'm only allowed to wear a t-shirt because that's how? And meanwhile, you throw on that freaking Origin Heavy hoodie? Get all toasty over there? And I can't say anything. Why? Because I understand how that would look. Oh, are you insecure? No, I'm not insecure. But I am also not a wimp.

• 3:32Jocko Willink?

  But I think about that and in the teams, you definitely think about that. In the teams, you're like, yo, um, if I say right now, you know, Sarge, he used to have a great way of saying this, he'd be like, oh, you're putting, you're putting yourself on report for being a Sally.

• 3:47Speaker 01

  Sally, yeah, I'm sure.

• 3:48Jocko Willink?

  You know what I mean? Quite use the word Sally, but that's what he would say. And it's a great thing, like someone said, comes to you and says like, hey, why do we have to do this? Oh, this is sucks. Oh, you're putting yourself on report for beating up.

• 4:03Jocko Willink?

  Right? It's true. And that's also a good thing to keep in your back pocket. And listen, listen, it's a hostile way of saying it, but let's face it, Sarge is a hostile dude, right? He's coming at dudes. Like if they're, if they're being weak, he's gonna let them know. You know, he's going full on. So listen, we don't want to have to have that happen to us. We don't want to put ourselves on report for acting like irrational, for yelling, for screaming, for being soft, for being weak. We don't want to do that.

• 4:36Jocko Willink?

  So take a look at yourself. Imagine that you gotta look at yourself in the mirror.

• 4:42Jocko Willink?

  And see yourself. And what you're doing. And how it's perceived. That right there. Is called detaching.

• 4:52Jocko Willink?

  And it might possibly, just possibly, prevent you.

• 4:57Jocko Willink?

  From behaving in a negative way and there are a multitude of negative waves, ways that we as a crew can behave. So don't let it happen. Think about what you look like from the other side. Understand the perspective. Some people, and look, that might sound like the most petty thing I could possibly say, right? Is this kinda petty? Like, oh, cause people say, "I don't care what I look like. I don't care what people think." I get that. I get it. I get it.

• 5:26Jocko Willink?

  But there's so many people that are unaware of what they appear like. And it would really help them if they knew. It would really help them out if they understood what they look like. From the outside. And they think they're getting away with it. And they're not. So I'm just telling you, you know, you might go around all night. Out to dinner. Freaking walking around when you were young, single then you got a big freaking booger hanging out of your nose, right?

• 5:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, sure.

• 5:51Jocko Willink?

  You're walking around trying to talk to girls. They're laughing and walking away. Yep. That's what's happening.

• 5:57Speaker 01

  That is.

• 5:58Jocko Willink?

  So. All you, what you need to do, you think you're cool. You don't know. You're unaware of this booger. Go look in the mirror and see what you look like. That can happen with your attitude.

• 6:11Jocko Willink?

  That can happen with your behavior. That's why, do you notice before social media, there was no such thing as a Karen?

• 6:17Speaker 01

  A Karen?

• 6:18Jocko Willink?

  A Karen, right? Before social media, there was no such thing. It wasn't until you had video and someone would video. You ever seen two Karens videoing each other? This is how wild it gets. They're both trying to show each other what each other looks like.

• 6:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:35Jocko Willink?

  They both need to go home and review both sets of videos. Let's put them side by side. You both lose.

• 6:41Speaker 01

  You're right.

• 6:43Jocko Willink?

  That's the whole, this mirror idea is the whole idea of when something happens these days and someone flips out their phone is like. Starts recording, "I don't care if you record." And it's like, that's what's happening.

• 6:56Jocko Willink?

  So that's my attitude. Don't, you know, free your mind, get out of your head and get some perspective by imagine that you actually have to look at yourself in the mirror when you're saying this right now. Whatever dumb thing you're saying. You ever heard that trick where you can be, like, let's say you say something rude to me?

• 7:17Jocko Willink?

  And I say, I didn't hear, I'm sorry, what did you say? And you make them say it again?

• 7:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. Wait, is that my trick or your, did you come up with that?

• 7:26Jocko Willink?

  I definitely didn't come up with it, but it's one, it's like some tactic, by the way.

• 7:29Speaker 01

  I think I did.

• 7:30Jocko Willink?

  You told me about it?

• 7:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:31Jocko Willink?

  Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. You just make them say it again.

• 7:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:34Jocko Willink?

  So when someone says, this is ridiculous. I can't believe you, you know, I can't believe you even, whatever. And you say, what's that? I couldn't hear you. And so now they gotta say it again?

• 7:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:44Jocko Willink?

  And it was an emotional off the cuff thing and all of a sudden they gotta repeat their dumb shit?

• 7:51Speaker 01

  Brutal.

• 7:52Jocko Willink?

  So anyways.

• 7:53Speaker 01

  Or yeah, so the rude part, and I remember it's coming back to me now. So I forget if I got that from you or just told you or whatever, because that was a while ago where. So it works too. And I was thinking of it in terms, originally was in terms of when someone makes a joke, you know, like, you know, I mean, you like, you'll, you'll try to like, say something, you know, like you'll rib on or you'll rib me and then all have to come back with something appropriate. You know, like, that's the game. It's like, you know, whatever. So a big one, which is, it's kind of a trump card, but it's kind of on the meaner side as far as the game goes is to, yeah, act like you don't hear them. So, and you do kind of like a version of this sometimes, like in real life, where you, you'll just like ignore it. Like literally act like you don't hear and just ignore it. Not even act like, oh, could you say it again? Not that, you just ignore it.

• 8:38Speaker 01

  And change the subject, whatever. So it's kind of like a version of that, but more in the game kind of a version of that, you know?

• 8:44Jocko Willink?

  I was watching some analytical debate or some analytics of a debate. It was like a Trump versus whoever debate. And one of the. Credits where people would lose points is like, and this just leads to a disaster on, that's why debates suck and our politicians are a bunch of freaking idiots. But one thing is they get told is like, hey, if you're talking and someone cuts you off, you just keep talking.

• 9:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:10Jocko Willink?

  You know, you can't let them stop and they show like part of the debate where one of the, one of the debaters would get interrupted, then they'd stop.

• 9:17Speaker 01

  Right.

• 9:17Jocko Willink?

  And that's like a sign of weakness.

• 9:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:20Jocko Willink?

  And like Trump would get interrupted and just sit there and just keep talking, doesn't even care and just keep talking.

• 9:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:25Jocko Willink?

  And it's a way to win debates.

• 9:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:27Jocko Willink?

  Of course, then, you know, the other side gets the same thing and they start doing the same thing. So now I just have people talking over each other and it just sucked. But that is another way someone's trying to interject, you just keep talking.

• 9:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:39Jocko Willink?

  Again, my recommendation is imagine what that looks like from that side, cause there's also, I've done the complete opposite as well. Like get interrupted, it's like someone interrupts you and just be quiet and just don't say anything.

• 9:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:52Jocko Willink?

  And you let them make their point.

• 9:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:54Jocko Willink?

  You don't look, you can say like, are you done now, which now you're an asshole, but you just let them talk.

• 10:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:01Jocko Willink?

  Okay. And then you make your point. I think that's either one of those, it's like the two extremes, right?

• 10:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:06Jocko Willink?

  You don't want to like be interrupted and then be like, uh, act like you're offended. No, you just, oh, you've got something to say, it's wrong port, go ahead.

• 10:14Speaker 01

  Right.

• 10:15Jocko Willink?

  Go ahead.

• 10:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. Funny enough, I noticed that you do that and you add a little at the end or in there. That's very effective that I've recently incorporated into my tactics. If you'll let them talk and then when they're done talking, you'll just keep looking at them as if to say anything else, you don't say it. It's just a little look. So it's like this awkward pause, you know, and then you do it, then it's like, I'm like, oh, fuck, I feel that. It's a good one. It's a really good one.

• 10:46Jocko Willink?

  What is this game we're talking about? Just interaction with humans?

• 10:49Speaker 01

  Oh, well, the one, the one I was really originally talking is, is like, you know, the whole friends insult game.

• 10:54Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 10:55Speaker 01

  Where that, and that's different, but I'm just saying what you would do to like, people when they're like talking.

• 11:00Jocko Willink?

  Yep. And you know what? It takes a certain level of confidence. If you have it to get interrupted and just be quiet and listen to what they say, that takes confidence.

• 11:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:08Jocko Willink?

  It shows your confidence, it shows you're secure in your ideas. If someone cuts you off and you just let them finish and then look at them like, are you done?

• 11:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:14Jocko Willink?

  Okay, if you're done, your idea is meaningless. Let me go on with mine, which actually makes sense.

• 11:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. That's the feeling for sure.

• 11:20Jocko Willink?

  As opposed to if someone could, you know, and you say, don't interrupt me. Now, look, you go watch the news freaking channels with all these idiots on them? All these donkeys?

• 11:28Speaker 01

  Seems common.

• 11:29Jocko Willink?

  It's just common, that's how they roll. They're just barking and screaming and talking over each other. It's, it's pathetic. That's one thing that's pretty cool about podcasts, generally speaking. And I think the headphones brings that element.

• 11:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:40Jocko Willink?

  Because with headphones on, you can hear yourself more. This is, you know what headphones are? They're like a mirror. Because you can hear yourself.

• 11:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:50Jocko Willink?

  And so if you're talking and I'm talking, it gets projected into my ear that both of us are talking. And I know how bad it sounds and it's just a bunch of jumbled nonsense. So people stop and they listen. When you have people that are on a podcast. That is a little excerpt of what we are doing on the Jocko Underground Podcast. So if you want to continue to listen, go to jacood underground.com and subscribe. And we're doing this to mitigate our reliance on external platforms. So we are not subject to their control. And we are doing this so that we can support the Jocko Podcast, which will remain as is, free for all, as long as we can keep it that way. But we are doing this so we don't have to be under the control of sponsors.

• 12:36Jocko Willink?

  And we're doing it so we can give you more control, more interaction, more direct connections, better communications with us. And to do that, we are, we're building a website right now where we'll be able to utilize to strengthen this legion of troopers that are in the game with us. So thank you, it's jacood underground.com. It costs eight dollars and 18 cents a month. And if you can't afford to support us, we can still support you. Just email assistance at jacood underground.com and we'll get you taken care of. Until then, we will see you mobilized underground.