Jocko Underground: This Is Stupid and It Doesn't Matter | Flipping Over The Chess Board

Flipping over the Chess Board. Sour Grapes. Finishing what you started when you're so close to the goal. Keeping a secret for your boss about spying on your colleagues. Coworker still rubbing me the wrong way even after I took extreme ownership. Where does Jocko stand on Alcohol now days? Where does motivation come from? Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is the Jocko Underground Podcast with Echo Charles and myself, Jocko Willink.

• 0:08Jocko Willink?

  There are things in life.

• 0:11Jocko Willink?

  There are, there are opportunities in life to walk away from things. And say, I'm not doing this anymore.

• 0:20Jocko Willink?

  I kind of mentioned this to you the other day. I call it flipping over the chessboard.

• 0:26Jocko Willink?

  And the reason I call it this is because if you and I are playing chess. And you start beating me in chess. Let's say you beat me once, you beat me twice, you beat me three times. And the fourth game. I just, just go, I flip over the chessboard and I go, this is stupid. And I just walk away. And I'm like, chess is dumb. It's a waste. It's a blah. It's that, right? Which I can definitely do, right? I can absolutely justify it. The easiest way.

• 0:57Jocko Willink?

  And that's one example. And that's a limited example, right? And actually, you could kind of say that. You can kind of say, well, you know, chess, it's a finite game. It doesn't really apply to what you're doing. Doesn't apply to other parts of your life. Sure, there's some metaphor. You can say that. You can legitimately say that. But you can actually say this about anything. And that's where you got to be careful. And by the way, I like chess. Chess is cool. It's fine. But think about big picture things. Like when you're growing up. School. This is stupid. School is stupid. You look, I might have got close to saying that kind of thing, you know, a little bit.

• 1:41Jocko Willink?

  You know, because I knew I was going to go in the military and I don't need to be doing this. But there were some friends of mine that were legitimately like, this is stupid. School is stupid. It's dumb.

• 1:55Jocko Willink?

  So it's a way of taking a challenge and just throwing it in the garbage can. And therefore it's not a challenge anymore. Um, politics at work.

• 2:12Jocko Willink?

  You know, like, oh, there's these politics going on at work. Oh, stupid, I'm not playing those games. Okay. You don't have to play those games. You don't have to. And it's actually easier just to say, I'm not playing all these games and just not progress. Now, even right now, some people are listening like, well, I'm not that. You see what I'm saying? Yeah, it's true. They're like, oh, that, I'm not playing these stupid games. Okay. Hey, man, you don't have to play the game. You can say this. You don't have to play chess either. See what I'm saying?

• 2:44Jocko Willink?

  Uh, here's one for me, stretching. Like stretching, like physically stretching. Yeah. You know?

• 2:51Jocko Willink?

  You know what I mean? Yes, I do. In the SEAL teams, some guys be like, running, running breeds cowardice. It's like, kind of saying running is like, oh, we don't need to be able to run. Oh, like running, like the exercise running? The exercise running. Oh, well, I'm not going to run away.

• 3:07Jocko Willink?

  That's just an excuse. Um, you ever heard anyone talk about jujitsu and they're like, rolling around with a bunch of sweaty guys? You ever heard that? Yes. Like, people legitimately say that? Yeah, fully.

• 3:20Jocko Willink?

  That's flipping over the chessboard. It's flipping over the chessboard.

• 3:25Jocko Willink?

  Things that are hard tend to attract this type of. This is a type of excuse, basically. Making money. Right? Now, look, should making money be the one, number one, uh, goal of your life and you should prioritize? No. But when people are like, I don't care about money. It's a bunch of materialistic. It's like, okay. Well, you're probably not going to make any then.

• 3:51Jocko Willink?

  What I'm saying is when there's something, because it's hard to make money. It's hard to get a good job. It's hard to start a business. It's hard to have a skill or develop a skill that people need that people are willing to pay for.

• 4:04Jocko Willink?

  So you can either say, well, I need to work harder. I need to develop a skill. I need to pour more into my career. So I can make more money, or you can be like, well, I don't care about money. I get it. I get it. I get it.

• 4:17Jocko Willink?

  But I'm just saying, watch out. Eating right. This is eating clean.

• 4:23Jocko Willink?

  Do those people that eat like that are miserable? Really? Really? Are they really miserable when they're like healthy? And feel good about themselves?

• 4:34Jocko Willink?

  You have to make sure that your little, this is me, I'm talking to myself. I have to make sure that my little flippant attitude. Isn't just a micro excuse or just a nice little rationalization of an excuse. We have to watch out for it. Uh, in jujitsu, foot locks. Do those things aren't real jujitsu. Remember that? I mean, it's kind of gone now, but for a long time, it's like, that's not real jujitsu. I'm not doing that.

• 4:59Jocko Willink?

  I'm not doing that. That was stupid. Squats.

• 5:05Jocko Willink?

  Squats are dumb.

• 5:07Jocko Willink?

  Uh, CrossFit's stupid. CrossFit's a cult. You ever heard that? Yes, I have. Bro, hey, look, you don't have to do CrossFit. I don't care. But if what you say is like, I'm not doing it's a cult.

• 5:21Jocko Willink?

  Just be careful, because those are some hard ass workouts.

• 5:27Jocko Willink?

  Deadlifts are dangerous. They say the same thing about squat. Squats are dangerous.

• 5:32Jocko Willink?

  Bro, you better just check.

• 5:38Jocko Willink?

  I'm not, I'm not over here trying to keep up with the Joneses. Think about that one. That's a societal one. And listen, there's a reason that that exists. I get it. We're not, you know, I'm not like, oh, Echo got a new car. I need to get new. I'm not saying that you should try and keep up with the Joneses. But at a certain point, if everything that takes effort is just trying to keep up with the Joneses, well, you just need to be careful. That's all I'm saying.

• 6:04Jocko Willink?

  It's a small form of excuses. I remember when I was a kid, I'd flip over a lot of chess boards. You know what I mean?

• 6:15Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 6:16Jocko Willink?

  I flipped over way too many chess boards.

• 6:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:18Jocko Willink?

  You know, from just things I'd be, oh, it's dumb, stupid. Anything, like when I would meet a little bit, I was, since I was like good at rationalizing.

• 6:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:28Jocko Willink?

  It was really easy just to flip over the chessboard. This is dumb. We don't care about grades.

• 6:35Jocko Willink?

  I don't care about this. I don't care about that. Those things are dumb.

• 6:40Jocko Willink?

  And like I said, it's usually with things that are hard, usually with things that are challenging.

• 6:46Jocko Willink?

  So I'm just saying, be careful. Just be careful. That's all it is. It's a little warning. Make sure you're not flipping over chess boards. There's gonna be hard stuff. It, I get it. It's hard. There's gonna be things that seem like they're tedious. There's a reason that they need to get done.

• 7:06Jocko Willink?

  And by the way, a good, if you really wanna figure out if something's dumb, get really good at it. You know, you wanna be like, I don't really like chess. Cool. Get good at it and then be like, yeah, you know what? I played it for two years. I got to a, how they rate chess?

• 7:21Speaker 01

  Elo.

• 7:23Jocko Willink?

  Explain.

• 7:23Speaker 01

  It's called the Elo. It's a rating number. I forget what it's.

• 7:27Jocko Willink?

  Do you know what yours is right now?

• 7:28Speaker 01

  Well, I am on chess.com, so I don't know how official these things are, but.

• 7:32Jocko Willink?

  But where are you at?

• 7:33Speaker 01

  Uh, I don't know yet, cuz it changed, cuz I have like five games going on at once and it changes every time you win and lose, so. I don't know, probably six hundred, something right now.

• 7:42Jocko Willink?

  So maybe get to a certain point, what would be like a solid, like purple belt?

• 7:47Speaker 01

  Twelve hundred.

• 7:47Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so get to twelve hundred. And then be like, hmm, wait, how much time and effort would it take to get to twelve hundred? Well, maybe that's not the thing then.

• 7:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I feel like, you know, I, I agree with you.

• 7:59Jocko Willink?

  And it's also like, if you say, hey, listen. Chess is not for me. I don't have the time and it's not, I'm not passionate about it enough. That I want to follow up with it every day. That's, that's more understandable than it's a waste of time. No. Jiu Jitsu is rolling around with square people. No, it's not. It's a skill set. Well, it is. Technically it is.

• 8:23Speaker 01

  Yes, it really is actually.

• 8:25Jocko Willink?

  So that's my point. Listen, my point is just be careful. Just be careful of when you say something, when you flip over that chessboard, you say something stupid. When you did, this is the word I was looking for dismissing things. When you dismiss things, make sure that you're dismissing it for the right reasons. Make sure that your dismissal isn't just a excuse. So you don't have to do something that's challenging.

• 8:50Speaker 01

  Yep. So my dad used to use this word cop out.

• 8:55Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, for sure. My dad used that word too.

• 8:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it's a good one, man. So it's like, it is, it's that. Like a lot of time anyway, it's like a cop out. Right. This is dumb. So it's, you know, and especially just like you said, when you can rationalize it, when there's, there's some truth in what you're thinking. There's some truth in it for sure. Like, yeah, what do you do? Spend all your time playing chess? Bro, we live in the real world. You got stuff to do, you know, kind of a thing. And it's like, oh, there's some truth to that, you know, but to say it's stupid. It's like, ah, so you're there. So you ever heard the expression sour grapes? You heard that, right? Sour grapes?

• 9:26Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 9:27Speaker 01

  So sour grapes, I didn't know where that came from or even exactly what it was, even though when someone used it, I could kind of understand. So sour grapes is like the kind of like, oh, like it seems like you're bitter. So you dismiss things, you know, because you're bitter about them. So I thought, oh, bitter sour grapes. So this is what the old fable, what do you call it? Fables? I think it's a fable. So this fox, right, was trying to eat these grapes that was up on this arch, right, or up on the grapevine. Uh, like kind of high up. So the fox goes, oh, those looks like some good grapes. Let me jump up and eat them. He jumps up, he can't reach them. So it's like, dang, he's like, all right, well, I underestimated how high they are. So let me jump again. He jumps again, even harder, freaking can't reach them. So he's like, no, this time, oh, I'm going to get them because those look like some good ass grapes up there.

• 10:08Speaker 01

  He jumps, musters up all his energy, jumps up, still not even close, doesn't get them. And he looks back up at him. He says, he's like. Walks away, he says, those grapes are probably sour anyway. And leaves, same exact thing in a way.

• 10:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, very similar thing.

• 10:25Speaker 01

  Where it's like, yeah, this is dumb, like freaking, I don't need this. Not only I don't need this, it's dumb. In fact, me doing this would be a bad move, kind of a thing, like going to that extreme. So that's when you know, you're copying out right there. It's true. The, um, anytime like, it feels like anyway, when you're, like your feelings are kind of extreme about it, that's like a red flag.

• 10:47Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 10:47Speaker 01

  Like, if you're like, this is dumb. Like, if you're like, oh yeah, chess seems cool, but you know, like, I don't know, it doesn't like spark my interest as much as it might, you know, some of the next guy or whatever. That's one thing, but to be like, to flip over the board and say it's dumb. It's a little red flag right there.

• 11:02Jocko Willink?

  And here's the thing, chess is the metaphor, the little tiny, tiny metaphor. What really concerns me is when people do this about things in life, big things in life.

• 11:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:15Jocko Willink?

  Like, who am I gonna kiss ass and try and get promoted? It's like, is it just hard work?

• 11:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:21Jocko Willink?

  Is it just extra responsibility that you're avoiding? Look, if you don't want to get promoted because you like where you're at and you like spending time with your family, you don't want to be on call and you don't want to be a salaried employee and you like working, but cool.

• 11:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:32Jocko Willink?

  But if you're just saying that, as just a reason to not do something that's going to be challenging and hard and risky, because there's a risk you don't get promoted. You know?

• 11:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:44Jocko Willink?

  Like, oh, this is stupid. Like I, like when I applied for the officer program in the military. Right? It's real easy. I didn't get picked up the first time. Yeah, let's just, it's just, I don't want to be an officer anyways. Okay, I could have easily said that.

• 11:59Jocko Willink?

  But that would have been just sour grapes.

• 12:01Speaker 01

  Sour grapes all day.

• 12:02Jocko Willink?

  Even, well, look, little things for sure, but big things in life, make sure you're not flipping over the chessboard.

• 12:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:10Jocko Willink?

  That's what I got.

• 12:10Speaker 01

  Exercise is a big one too.

• 12:12Jocko Willink?

  Exercise is a huge one.

• 12:13Speaker 01

  You ever heard of the expression fit shame, fit shaming someone? You know, you know how there's fat shaming? There's fit shaming apparently. Yeah, yeah. So it's like, I don't know, for example, like you see this guy who's really cut up, big muscles, super cut up, right?

• 12:27Speaker 01

  And people be like, oh, that's, it's kind of too much, you know? You're kind of doing a lot over there, you know, kind of a thing. Or, you know, some people, they, they are very strict with what they eat and don't eat. Right? So let's say you're at a dinner party or you're at a party or something and people that probably relax a little bit, you know, freaking whether it be drink alcohol or freaking, bro, it's just cake, chill, you know, like freaking, it's not that big a deal. It's like you live for this, you know, it's like you kind of give them a little bit of a shame for, for staying on the path, kind of in their own way. Cause everyone's different, you know, people are different, uh, people are on the path in different ways. That's what I'm saying. And someone's going extreme for themselves in ways that other people might think is extreme and then they shame them for it.

• 13:07Speaker 01

  Cause you know, it's kind of this little bit of, it, it has the scent of sour grapes on that one.

• 13:14Jocko Willink?

  It does. And that's real scary because, you know, you ever heard that? So that is a little excerpt of what we are doing on the Jocko Underground Podcast. So if you want to continue to listen, go to JacoUnderground.com and subscribe. And we're doing this, we're doing this to mitigate our reliance on external platforms. So we are not subject to their control and we are doing this so that we can support the Jocko Podcast, which will remain as is free for all, as long as we can keep it that way. But we, but we are doing this so we don't have to be under the control of sponsors.

• 13:58Jocko Willink?

  And we're doing it so we can give you more control, more interaction, more direct connections, better communications with us. And to do that, we are, we're building a website right now where we'll be able to utilize to strengthen this legion of troopers that are in the game with us. So thank you. It's JacoUnderground.com. It costs $8.18 a month. And if you can't afford to support us, we can still support you. Just email [email protected] and we'll get you taken care of. Until then, we will see you mobilized underground.