Jocko Underground: Getting A Decisive Victory

"Decisive Victory" sounds good. Can you always "smell" intent? Getting out of a depression. Fixating on the "What if?" driving me crazy. Taking Extreme Ownership with people who don't take their share of ownership of a problem. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is the Jocko Underground Podcast, number 88, sitting here with Echo Charles. What's going on Echo? You good?

• 0:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, good, thank you.

• 0:09Jocko Willink?

  Decisive victory. Almost, maybe you need to go and post and put some sound effects behind that, maybe some like, you know, heroic music. And I'll, and put some echo on my voice, so it's like, decisive victory.

• 0:26Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 0:27Jocko Willink?

  Cause it sounds good.

• 0:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:29Jocko Willink?

  It sounds good, right? Decisive victory. Decisive victory is when in war, or business, or argument, or life, or game, one team, or one side, or one party, or one individual achieves clear and overwhelming victory.

• 0:52Jocko Willink?

  It leaves no doubt as to who the winner is.

• 0:56Jocko Willink?

  It can create a shift in the balance of power, right? So it sounds really good.

• 1:05Jocko Willink?

  And you'd think I'd be fired up just to tell everyone you need to go get your decisive victory.

• 1:13Jocko Willink?

  But, I'm actually talking about this not to tell you to go and achieve a decisive victory. I'm actually gonna tell you to be careful of going through life looking to score decisive victories. Because, they can cause problems. There's some things to think. Let's say you're doing jujitsu. Let's face it, in jujitsu, there's such a thing as a decisive victory, it's called a submission. Right? When you get submission, it's a decisive victory. Right? You won. You submitted the person.

• 1:47Jocko Willink?

  But if you're looking for that, too much can cause you to take risks that's unnecessary. Now look, listen, I'm the guy, we're the guy, that's our thing, we come from the Dean list. Dean list are going for submissions, that's how we train all the time. But if you're in a life or death situation, and you decide, oh, I'm gonna go for this submission here,

• 2:10Jocko Willink?

  you might be going for something and taking risk that you shouldn't be taking. Or if you're in a tournament, you might take a risk that you shouldn't be taking.

• 2:18Jocko Willink?

  So, be careful on giving up position.

• 2:23Jocko Willink?

  Same thing in business. You might, well, we're gonna crush the, we're gonna crush our competitor. So you do some investing, some over the top investment, capital investment on some thing to try and shut them down. All of a sudden, you spent too much, you leveraged too much, you gave up your position. So going for a decisive victory can cause you to take too much risk. It can also escalate the conflict. Because as soon as you start getting hyper aggressive, the other side's gonna dig in. They're gonna start answering back that aggression. Now all of a sudden, what may not have been that big of a deal, that wouldn't have cost you a bunch of, a bunch of resources, all of a sudden, now it's gonna cost you a bunch of resources.

• 3:08Jocko Willink?

  Cause the other side digs in when you get aggressive.

• 3:13Jocko Willink?

  I mean, even in a street fight, like you go to really hurt someone, they pull out a gun and shoot you. Like, that's what happens. So you escalate things. The, you get in, going for the decisive victory, you're hurting relationships. This is like in an argument type thing. When I get to prove Echo wrong, cool, I've totally made Echo look stupid in that big meeting. Now Echo actually doesn't like me anymore.

• 3:41Jocko Willink?

  It's like that old, uh, topic of winning an argument with your spouse. Oh, that's great. You won the argument. Good job. Decisive victory. Actually made your wife feel a little bit dumb. Oh, that's great. Good job. Terrible. By the way, that happens with your kids too. By the way, kids become resentful. You're actually bullying, like if you're arguing with your kids about something, and you score a decisive victory, you're actually bullying them.

• 4:16Jocko Willink?

  So don't do that. You're gonna cause unnecessary casualties, right? What kind of damage are you doing when you're going for a decisive victory? It be beyond relationships, which we just talked about, but even in a business, like even if I get the decisive victory, but I've wasted all my money or I've burned out my team. Like, I'm gonna cause some unnecessary casualties.

• 4:40Jocko Willink?

  What about my focus? Cause guess what? When you start focusing on a decisive victory, well, this happens all the, you know when this happens in MMA? Going for the knockout. And you see someone, they're just trying to get the knockout, trying to get the knockout, trying to get the knockout, trying to get the knockout. They're swinging with all their might, they're telegraphing their moves. And they're not seeing that they're getting touched up at the, then the judges are scoring those touchdowns. That, that opponent's getting that easy takedown at the end of every round. And all of a sudden, they win 30-27. They got a takedown in every round. Showed the positional domination. There's only 30 seconds left, but that's how you win an MMA fight. Hit a takedown with 30 seconds left. Do okay on the stand-up.

• 5:25Jocko Willink?

  And then just take a guy down and control him for the last minute, 30 seconds. And you win. But what happens is when you have somebody that is trying for a decisive victory, it happens too with submissions. Oh, I'm trying to get that submission. I'm gonna exert all my energy on this guillotine choke. And then Echo pops his head out. I'm gassed.

• 5:48Jocko Willink?

  Fake story, not true.

• 5:52Jocko Willink?

  But, but you see what I'm saying? What's the trade-off? What's the, that's something to think about when you're going for decisive victory. What is the trade-off? You know, oh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get 600-pound deadlift. Cool. Decisive victory all over the deadlift. How's your four-mile time run?

• 6:13Jocko Willink?

  How many pull-ups are you doing? You see what I'm saying? Like you're, you're, there's gonna be a trade-off. Oh, you're gonna put all your money into crushing that competitor in one line of business. Cool. What about your other lines of business?

• 6:28Jocko Willink?

  So what's the trade-off?

• 6:31Jocko Willink?

  You need to think about that. Is there another way to win that's win-win actually? Which is weird. Isn't it weird to think of, hey, Echo and I are competitors and I want to defeat him. I want a decisive victory. And instead I go, you know what? Is there a way that Echo's company and my company can actually work together? And we can both win? And maybe I win a little bit less, but I can also help Echo win? And then all of a sudden, we have a good relationship. Maybe in two years, we merge our companies, become the dominant force. As opposed to me, winning a decisive victory over you, you hobble away.

• 7:14Jocko Willink?

  You go and join another company, you give them your IP. They have the money to invest in it, they build it and they take me over. Right? I blew it. Isn't it kind of a good thing if I can look for a win-win? We're negotiating for something. You know what? How about I figure out how you can win too? And guess what? What's driving a lot of these decisive victories? Is our ego. The ego loves the decisive victory. The ego is the most decisive victory-seeking being on the planet. It wants to win and then it wants to raise its arms and yell at the camera at close range like they do in UFC like.

• 8:00Jocko Willink?

  That's what your ego wants to do. The ego, I brought this up, I don't think you, you may not know this yet. It was on a debrief podcast. I don't know if it's come out yet. The ego is a short-term tactical thinker. The ego is not a long-term strategic thinker. So, let's think strategic. How can I win with minimal resources? How can I win with minimal effort? That's jujitsu, by the way. Right? That's what jujitsu is supposed to be. Efficiency. Judo, that's what judo is supposed to be. Efficiency. I'm not going to use a bunch of energy against you.

• 8:42Jocko Willink?

  You're protecting that arm, you're squeezing that arm, you're making sure you're not going to give me your arm. Cool, I just took your neck. How can I win? Again, something to pay attention to. How can I win with the least amount of negative impact?

• 8:59Jocko Willink?

  How can I, look, look, Echo's got his company, I got my company. Sure, I want to destroy his company. Okay. But is that really beneficial? Or can I, or can I figure out a way to defeat his company? But still allow him to exist in a way that's positive for the whole market?

• 9:21Jocko Willink?

  Is there a way to win without, with minimum? Negative impact, which, which comes around to like, is there a way to win with, what's the minimum force required for victory?

• 9:33Jocko Willink?

  What's the minimum force required for victory? Can I utilize the minimum force instead of the maximum force? That's what decisive victory calls for. It calls for maximum force. What we want to do is figure out often, now look, is there a time when you need a decisive victory? Don't get me wrong. Don't get me wrong, yes, there is. You're about to get in a fight with four different people? You want a decisive victory over the biggest one of them. You want to knock him out cold. That's what you want to do. You got somebody that messes with your country? You want to decisively show the world that that was a big, big mistake.

• 10:11Jocko Willink?

  Somebody messes with your company? Or with the people at your company in some way? You want to protect those people? You go after them? Yes, you want a decisive victory.

• 10:23Jocko Willink?

  But most of the time. You should think if that's really what the best outcome will be. You should really think through if that's what the best outcome is going to be. Because generally speaking. Generally speaking.

• 10:41Jocko Willink?

  The decisive dominant crushing victory is not as good. Generally speaking. As a victory that was gained with minimum force. Generally speaking, look, are there cases? Yes, there are. Are, there certainly are. There's cases where you want everybody to know.

• 11:05Jocko Willink?

  But most of the time.

• 11:08Jocko Willink?

  Majority of the time, I'll say, not most, but a majority of the time.

• 11:13Jocko Willink?

  Think through what your options are. For a. Minimum force victory.

• 11:22Speaker 01

  There you go. Yeah, that long term strategy thing is, is, you know, obviously, you know, I very much value that, especially nowadays. So the, uh, this happens in wrestling, MMA, fighting, all this stuff where, let's say, we, me and you were, we're going. We're fighting for the championship, me and you.

• 11:40Speaker 01

  Big fight, whatever, I lose to you, whatever, decision, whatever, whatever. Now, the, the short term game is like, oh, let me. Let me go train harder to maybe beat him again.

• 11:53Speaker 01

  The long term game. Is to invite you into my training camp. Now we can train together and of course we both get better, right? But now I become better, I can see like all your, you know, your secrets, your methods, all this stuff. That not only apply to. Me competing against you, but me competing to everyone else or with everyone else. So it's like one of those things where, um. Yeah, you'd never think that, you'd never think, oh yeah, even if you beat somebody, you'd never think, um. Oh yeah, like, let's invite him into my gym. I mean, nowadays, I guess.

• 12:26Jocko Willink?

  It does happen, it definitely happens.

• 12:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's actually pretty common in MMA. But the feeling, you know, that short term feeling like, but I want this guy in my gym, knowing, watching me train. Knowing my secrets, like that seems like one of those short term ones that hits you right away.

• 12:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's like the old school jujitsu.

• 12:42Speaker 01

  Right.

• 12:42Jocko Willink?

  Very good examples of old school jujitsu.

• 12:43Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 12:44Jocko Willink?

  You couldn't train at someone else's school.

• 12:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:46Jocko Willink?

  It's a crayon.

• 12:47Speaker 01

  Crayon, yeah, I was actually talking to Miha today and we're talking about, you know, old school stories and stuff like that. And he was like, yeah, I went to this other gym. It was interesting because they had this, this really rigid tradition and you couldn't wear. Any of your stuff when you came in, you had to, they had all these rigid rules and stuff and then. He's like, but when I rolled with them, they were just gaping holes in their game, very noticeable gaping holes, just because they, they're so rigid in this kind of training.

• 13:15Jocko Willink?

  Incestual thought, prop, patterns.

• 13:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, they don't, they don't, they don't introduce like new stuff from, you know, outside or whatever. Um, yeah, I guess a little bit of attention, but yeah, it's that, that long term.

• 13:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 13:26Speaker 01

  Thinking, bro, you'd be like, wait, what holes? Like, oh, I'm not rigid to nothing, I want all, you know.

• 13:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and the the relationship things of like, oh, I'm, you know, we're gonna underbid this this construction company. And so you underbid them, you win the job, decisive victory. Now you got an enemy. Now, like, two months later, you're calling them to see if you could use their subcon or their freaking drywallers and they're like, no, that ain't happening.

• 13:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's such a good point.

• 13:58Jocko Willink?

  So, let's think through things. Think long term. Think strategic.

• 14:02Speaker 01

  That argument one is a big one. When you're getting into debates with your friends and you're just like shooting down their arguments, making them feel stupid, like all this stuff, especially in front of people, which kind of adds to your your fuel, you know, other people watching and then, yeah, they feel dumb or insulted or whatever. And no one's trying to hang with you anymore.

• 14:20Jocko Willink?

  You know what's funny is like, people don't really argue with me very often.

• 14:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:25Jocko Willink?

  But it's not because, it's it's generally because I'm not saying like, well, here's what I think. I don't go, I'm not going at somebody. So if I'm not going at you, I'm just kind of telling you like, oh, did, what about this perspective? And then when you counter with your perspective, instead of me saying, no, that's wrong, I go, oh, yeah, that's a good point. There's no real argument to be had. Like, is it not possible that there's multiple perspectives of the same item? Well, yes, it is. I'm, I'm, I understand that. I understand that if, you know, uh, uh, I understand that there's gi and no gi jujitsu. And there's good points for both of them.

• 15:06Jocko Willink?

  Which one's better? That depends on a lot of different things. I mean, there's certainly people that will argue which one is better.

• 15:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:13Jocko Willink?

  For a variety of reasons. I won't. Okay, I'm not gonna argue. There's very few things. If you try and argue with me about something, I want you to spend the next week thinking about what to argue with me about.

• 15:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:25Jocko Willink?

  Think, think where you can get me to dig in on something. Like unless you're ISIS, like an ISIS fighter, or you're a communist.

• 15:37Jocko Willink?

  Which even a communist, like if you're sitting there talking to me like, whoa, wouldn't it be good if everyone? So that is a little excerpt of what we are doing on the Jocko Underground Podcast. So if you want to continue to listen,

• 15:52Jocko Willink?

  go to JacoUnderground.com and subscribe and we're doing this, we're doing this to mitigate our reliance on external platforms. So we are not subject to their control and we are doing this so that we can support the Jocko Podcast, which will remain as is free for all, as long as we can keep it that way. But we, but we are doing this so we don't have to be under the control of sponsors. And we're doing it so we can give you

• 16:24Jocko Willink?

  more control, more interaction, more direct connections, better communications with us.

• 16:30Jocko Willink?

  And to do that, we are, we're building a website right now where we'll be able to utilize to strengthen this legion of troopers that are in the game with us. So thank you. It's JacoUnderground.com. It costs $8.18 a month. And if you can't afford to support us,

• 16:50Jocko Willink?

  we can still support you. Just email [email protected] and we'll get you taken care of. Until then, we will see you mobilized underground.