380: How Ancient Wisdom Tells Us Exactly What To Do

Exploring ancient wisdom to gain understanding on the best approach to life. I Ching. FuXi. Yin Yang. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 380 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening Echo.

• 0:05Speaker 01

  Good evening.

• 0:06Jocko Willink?

  So recently on the Underground Podcast, we I covered one quote from the Yi Ching, which is a ancient script Yi Ching from China and Yi means change. It's actually looks like it says I. That means change and Ching means script. So this book is commonly called The Book of Changes. Original author unknown. It got modified over the years. Confucius, I think, is the most famous person that kind of added to it. Another some other guy, another

• 0:50Jocko Willink?

  character slash myth slash legend, Fu Shi. And again, I'm not any kind of an expert on this stuff. I just wanted to kind of touch it from the surface here, but he created

• 1:04Jocko Willink?

  the yin yang symbol. So the yin yang is a symbol that everybody knows from,

• 1:12Jocko Willink?

  well, at least from Town and Country Surfboards, TNC.

• 1:17Jocko Willink?

  But also it's just a common symbol. You see, it's in every cheesy martial arts movie, right? You get a little yin yang in there. It's in kind of new age spirituality. You'll get that yin and yang going. We've seen a lot of yin and yang tattoos, right? From especially from back in the day, I'm gonna say 80s, 90s, you know, there were some yin yang tattoos. I think it could still be happening, but they were pretty popular back then. So we got that common symbol of yin and yang and the the story behind that is before the universe, before there was anything, there was just stillness and there was emptiness and then these two energies, these two. Qi's Qi Qi collided made the universe that's ying and yang so in this book I Ching

• 2:00Jocko Willink?

  it's made up of these little characters not language characters but stacks of lines

• 2:09Jocko Willink?

  literally stacks of lines a broken line is ying yin and a solid line is yang and these two when you stack these lines you can stack them in ways that represent the eight fundamental natural parts of of earth really fire so it's it's fire water wind

• 2:34Jocko Willink?

  thunder one of them says river but I think it's like river lake maybe even ocean in there mountain earth and heaven if you put these three things together there's a there's a way of writing this out just you're basically drawing lines stacking lines and and here's where I'm getting with this they made this thing for

• 2:57Jocko Willink?

  divination which is the predicting of the future so divination is something that we do in America believe it or not you ever drive down the road and you see like palm reader that's it that's divination that's I'm gonna predict the future or astrology you read in the newspaper that's divination like oh I was born in October so when the seventh moon is in the dark side that means that I should move on my new you know theories or whatever

• 3:28Jocko Willink?

  crystal ball yeah like there's people that read crystal balls that's called scrying you can read mirrors you can read crystal balls numerology you ever heard about these people that would base their I think Nancy Reagan was in a numerology where it's like well you know what this today is the 13th of this you know seventh month and therefore that equals 20 and 20 is my lucky number so you know what I mean that kind of thing so all these things are are called divination

• 3:57Jocko Willink?

  and that's sort of what the I Ching has become in a way or it became and you end up with this thing where they call these things Um, hexagrams where basically it looks like six stacked lines. And it's all these different arrangements. And so you, you have these, so it's a solid line and a broken line. All right. So you have like a solid line. Or a broken line. Those are the two types of lines you can have. It's binary. You can have one or the other. And they stack these lines in different ways and it means different things. So the top three lines might mean water and the bottom three lines might mean earth. And there you, from that combination.

• 4:40Jocko Willink?

  You can predict different things, right? That's, that's what it is. So like, for instance, hexagram five. Which is waiting. But it's not just waiting. It's inner certainty. It leads to perseverance that brings good luck. So that, that's what it is. That's, that's how this works. And what they, what you end up with is really like a bunch of sayings. And, um, you can do it with throwing coins. Again, to predict these things, I don't want to go too deep in this because frankly, I'm not a believer, okay? I'm not a believer in palm reading.

• 5:23Jocko Willink?

  I'm not a believer in astrology. I'm not a believer in this kind of stuff. I'm not a believer in throwing, they do it with pennies or with whatever coins and like a head is one and a tail is something else and you can, that's how you can predict. So if you ponder your question and then you throw the coins and then it tells you what kind of line to draw. And it's going to work it out for you. Okay. So again, I'm not into this kind of thing. But here, here, here's the thing. There is some basic philosophical guidance in the I Ching that completely makes sense. That's why we covered, look, I was, I, some, I had some copy of it. And when we did, we did one quote on the Underground Podcast. And I was like, you know what?

• 6:06Jocko Willink?

  There's a lot, there is a lot of, I almost want to use the word wisdom, but I also just want to use the word common sense. And sometimes common sense and wisdom are very similar. They're very close to each other. You know, when something seems like common sense. That's prob, that person that's executing some real common sense moves probably has a decent amount of wisdom. And some of these things in the I Ching. Represent some pretty good wisdom and at the same breath, you could also say, well, that's common sense.

• 6:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:38Jocko Willink?

  Hey, I get it, right? You can, and you know, this also boils down to like the old oracles.

• 6:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:48Jocko Willink?

  You know, in ancient times, there would be oracles that would make prediction like the famous one is, you know, the big leader comes and says, shouldn't we go to war with the enemy? And the oracle says, if you go to war, a powerful nation will fall.

• 7:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:02Jocko Willink?

  And so a person's like, oh, cool, we're gonna win.

• 7:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:05Jocko Willink?

  But it actually doesn't predict anything, right?

• 7:08Speaker 01

  Also too, you, you mentioned the common sense thing where that is real, I think, I believe.

• 7:15Jocko Willink?

  What is?

• 7:15Speaker 01

  That the ancient wisdom is almost like it's rooted in common sense.

• 7:22Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 7:22Speaker 01

  So like, you know, like the old school, uh, what was it? I don't know who said, I forget, but it's, they said, um, do not kill mosquito with bazooka or something.

• 7:33Jocko Willink?

  Yep, there you go.

• 7:34Speaker 01

  It's like that kind of stuff.

• 7:35Jocko Willink?

  Ancient wisdom and common sense.

• 7:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, but at the same, so it seems like common sense.

• 7:39Jocko Willink?

  Wait, in ancient times, they had bazookas?

• 7:42Speaker 01

  No, that was on, um, what was that movie with Sean Connery? Catherine said it, anyway, oh, Entrapment, anyway, he said, uh, so yeah, uh, do not kill mosquito with bazooka, right? Or whatever. Obviously that was made up.

• 7:54Jocko Willink?

  We didn't have that saying in the SEAL teams, by the way.

• 7:57Speaker 01

  And it's like, yeah, everyone knows that. But at the same time, what that means probably applies to a bunch of things that, man, if you just stop and think, it's like, okay, you know, it can probably help you out in a lot of situations, like ancient quote unquote philosophy that applies, sure, said simply, which is kind of part of the wisdom. Can apply to a bunch of things if you just stop and think.

• 8:17Jocko Willink?

  So everything that you're saying right now?

• 8:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:18Jocko Willink?

  Is when I, is why, when I read through the E Ching, I was like, you know what? This is worth covering because there's some quote ancient wisdom. Or quote, common sense, that if you utilize, it's gonna help you. A- and look, um, could I be in the zone? Could, could I?

• 8:42Jocko Willink?

  Could you take my, what I, kind of things that I say and turn it into a powerful divination? That would help you, like we could create some kind of a, like a magic eight ball. Sure. Remember that magic eight ball? Hell yeah. Magic eight ball, same thing, right? Magic eight ball is divination, we should have brought that up as a form of divination. Cause you shake the magic eight ball and it says, the outcome is certain, right?

• 9:06Jocko Willink?

  And it just gives you these things that have no meaning, but, but what's interesting about them is, let's say you were like, oh, should I, you know, ask that girl on a date? And you shake and it says, the outcome is certain. Dude, yeah, hell yeah. Yes, it's gonna work. Well, the outcome also might be certain that she rejects you, but you don't really know that. You have a good attitude till you go ask her out, she says yes. Maybe she says no. Yeah. But, you know, we could make like an, a magic eight ball with, uh, you know, ancient Jaco wisdom in it, right? And you shake the eight ball and it says, work hard. Yeah. That's a good answer. Like, well, hey, I'm really having a problem with my, with my job right now. What should I do? Work hard. Oh, I'm really having a problem with my relationship right now. What should I do? Work hard. I'm really having a problem staying in shape right now. What should I do? Work hard.

• 9:52Jocko Willink?

  Be disciplined. Right? Oh, well, you know, I, it just seems like I'm really having a hard time getting, getting forward at my job. Be disciplined. Like, it's gonna be a good answer. Eat clean. Hey, I'm having a hard time getting focused. Eat clean. I'm having a hard time falling asleep. Eat clean. Like, you see what I'm saying? Like, these are just, do jujitsu. What's sad, what's funny about jujitsu, it's not sad.

• 10:19Jocko Willink?

  Like on the underground podcast, where people have things going on in their life, at least 50% of the time, I have to throw in there, do jujitsu, cause it's actually accurate. Yeah. It's gonna make things better if you're doing jujitsu.

• 10:30Jocko Willink?

  So eat clean. You know, work hard, be disciplined. Do jujitsu. Those kinds of things you could put on a magic Jaco eight ball and they would make sense and they would actually help you. They would actually help you. Do not make excuses. Do not make excuses. Boom, that's another one. Yeah. You know, so those things, I mean, what would you say, what are the opposite? Would you say like, hey, be, you, be lazy? Is that advice you're gonna give someone? Or are you gonna tell, eat junk? You're gonna tell that to someone? No, it doesn't make any sense. So, there's a, a certain amount of common sense to these things, just like there's a bunch of common sense to stuff that I say, just like there's a bunch of common sense to things that. When people get traction about how to live better, normally it's like when you look at it, it's, there's definitely some common sense advice in there.

• 11:15Jocko Willink?

  And again, everything that we're talking about is why, as I read through the I Ching, I thought, you know what, this is, there's, there's definitely some ancient wisdom or common sense, depending on how you want to look at it. You don't have to get spiritual. You don't have to believe in the divination and draw the Yaro sticks. There's a bunch of different ways you can do it. It's all, yeah, there's a bunch of different ways that you can use this stuff, but I think if you just read what they say, you're going to end up in a pretty good spot. So let's get into this. This is the I Ching. And, and so each one of these things, and I'm not going to waste a bunch of time. Oh, no, sorry. I'm not going to waste time. I'm not going to go over what the little hexagram looks like.

• 12:01Jocko Willink?

  But in your mind, just picture that every one of these things could be either six solid lines or six lines, either solid or broken lines. That's what you get. All right. So hexagram one. Heaven above, heaven below. So it says, the universe is united in power. So too, the wise person executes his actions with power and creativity. Exceptional progress comes by correct persistence. Is that earth shattering? It certainly is not. But this is what I think is so interesting about this. Let's say you were concerned about, you know, where you're at with your health, fitness, family, whatever, like take, take a pick

• 12:46Jocko Willink?

  of what issue you're running into in your life. And it says, hey, execute your actions with power and creativity and exceptional progress is going to come from persistence. You're, okay, that's good advice. You're going to get better.

• 13:02Jocko Willink?

  Next one, the receptive earth is in power. The wise person follows the natural path of calmness and correct persistence. Others may lead while you support their goals. This is like, as soon as I got to that one, I was thinking to myself, there's, look. Others may lead while you support your goals. I tell this people all the time at Echelon Front. I tell this people at least twice a week, I'm telling them, let them take lead. Hey, if someone's got, if someone's got a good plan, cool, go, go help them, provide support. We have it in dichotomy leadership. Sometimes you lead, sometimes you follow. That's good. That's exactly what they're saying. Others may lead while you support their goals.

• 13:45Jocko Willink?

  That's a good thing. There's no, there's no rocket science there for sure. Hey, and I'm, I'm skipping the part where it says hexagram three, water above, thunder below. The overall word is confusion. So I'm skipping that kind of part just to get to the meat of these statements, at least most of the time. Undertake no distant goal, but organize support. Concern yourself with problems of the moment. Now, what's interesting about this one is this is a little bit of prioritize and execute, right? There's a little bit of prioritize and execute, which is, hey, there's problems that are right now, right in front of your face. You gotta, you gotta get those problems solved. I don't like the idea of undertake no distant goal,

• 14:28Jocko Willink?

  but this is a common theme throughout this, throughout the I Ching, which is more focused on what's right in front of you. I think there's a little bit of the, sort of the eastern philosophy of like, living in the present, living in the moment. I think there's a lot of that in here, which I think actually the opposite of make sure you're thinking strategic, make sure you're thinking long-term.

• 14:54Speaker 01

  That one hits, strikes me as the old, um, you know, thing you hear a lot, like, don't, don't worry or focus on the outcome, focus on the, on the procedure, you know?

• 15:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 15:04Speaker 01

  The destination is not the journey, or the focus on journey, not the destination.

• 15:07Jocko Willink?

  Yep, that's, you're right. So there you go. That's, that's an interpretation that everybody says right now, right? You gotta, what do they, wait, what do they say? You gotta love the process. You gotta love the process. Everybody wants that Mercedes right now, but you gotta love the process, right? That's a thing. And that's, you're right. That is a, a better take than what I said. Undertake no distant goal, but organize support. Oh, you know what that means? I worry about that long-term. I worry about that Mercedes right now. Worry about the process.

• 15:39Speaker 01

  Yes, it feels like the use of the word goal is just like slightly, slightly different than maybe one might feel the use of the word goal is like now, today with us, you know, it's like when you say, hey, let's set some really good goals, you know, set some goals, that's like things you want to aim for more so than a very specific outcome, you know, it's, it's, it's not totally different, but it's slightly different, it feels like.

• 16:04Jocko Willink?

  And plus, you know, sometimes we're, different languages have totally different words that mean like, it's close.

• 16:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, it's true.

• 16:12Jocko Willink?

  Carlos is.

• 16:13Speaker 01

  Who Mendez?

• 16:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, he's redoing the Spanish version of Extreme Ownership.

• 16:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:18Jocko Willink?

  To make it highly accurate, because Carlos, obviously, was in the SEAL Teams. He's a fluent Spanish speaker, he's an instructor at Esloam Front, he teaches now the material in Spanish to our Spanish speaking clients, and he, you know, he's pointed out to me, he says, hey, here's what this means in Spanish, it technically does mean what you say in English, but it technically means it, but it actually means a little bit different, and here's the better word.

• 16:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, that's so true.

• 16:49Jocko Willink?

  So if you put it through ChatGPT and just said, translate this, it would just translate spit out whatever the English word and translate it to that direct, closest, matching Spanish word that it knows out of context.

• 17:01Speaker 01

  Right.

• 17:02Jocko Willink?

  So that's what we got going on right now. We're actually going to republish the Spanish version of that and, and we're going to do a Spanish speaking, where Carlos is going to do the, the audiobook in Spanish. It's, it's awesome to have, you know, a fluent speaker of Spanish to be able to go that deep.

• 17:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, and that's a, that's a important distinction, because how you said, you said ChatGPT or Google Translate or whatever, when you're like, oh, I heard this word in this sentence in this other language, hey, what does that word mean there? You, you, you Google Translate it or whatever. And it spits out this word and you're like, wait a second, then why would they use that word? It doesn't make sense, but you translate the whole expression. They're like, oh, okay, that's like an ex- a whole expression that happened to use that word. Just like because of the very reason that you just said, where it's the word. What do they call, uh, it's like literal translation, right? They call it, but then the expression has a translation kind of almost in a way separate from the little translation.

• 18:02Jocko Willink?

  You know, it'll be fun when that book comes out, we'll, we'll have Carlos on and we'll talk through the different words that and why this is the best word.

• 18:11Speaker 01

  Bro, that helps so much because you know, like I always tell you, like in Hawaiian, this is just pigeon. This is technically English, but it's pigeon. There's different expressions that just like how you said, man, it's like, it's similar, but it's different. Like when you're expressing a whole expression, like you're going to be saying different things. And they say like, like the idea of slippers, right? In Hawaii, slippers is flip flops. That's what slippers are in Hawaii. When you, in Hawaii, when you say slippers, you mean flip flops, right? In the mainland.

• 18:36Jocko Willink?

  What do you, what do you say when you want to refer to slippers? Like, what do you say when you want to refer to something you weren't around their house that are like?

• 18:42Speaker 01

  House slippers.

• 18:44Jocko Willink?

  House slippers.

• 18:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, but here's the thing though, and this is, this is probably, I don't know exactly why, but I'm sure this, it has something to do with this idea. People don't wear house slippers in Hawaii. They go barefoot, they take off their shoes in Hawaii. So there's a house slipper is really rare you're going to see in Hawaii, generally speaking. So there's no real expression unless you're, okay, house slippers then, house slippers is different. All right, but even I would think, I don't know, I could be wrong, but given my experience in Hawaii. If you said house slippers, if I didn't have any experience like with the mainland, like house slippers. And you just lived in Hawaii, you'd be like, what? You have an extra pair of slippers that you wear in the house, which makes no sense. Cause why would you keep shoes on in the house? Doesn't make sense, you know, no one really does that.

• 19:27Jocko Willink?

  Is it, or are we taking off the shoes like in every time you go to a house?

• 19:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's, yeah, that's customary. That is how, yeah, for sure. And then also the idea of, uh, no shame, right? I tell you that one all the time, no shame. In Hawaii, no shame means don't be shy. But in the mainland, it's like, it's more of a negative thing, like he had no shame, like he should be ashamed of himself, but he had no shame, you know, kind of a thing, it's it's kind of that's different. So, and in certain contexts, if you're trying to convey whatever message it is, and you're in Hawaii, and you say, oh, yeah, no shame, it'll be more like, hey, he wasn't being shy, you know? But in the mainland, he was like, we had no shame, it'd be like, oh, that guy should have been ashamed of himself, and he wasn't, you know, kind of a thing. So it's weird. But yeah, so you need that kind of stuff.

• 20:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, so some of these words like goal. Yeah. Who knows what direct translation really would be? And then, look, I might be translating it to English, and you might be translating it to English, and even if both of us were fluent in Chinese and fluent in English, we still might. You know, my vibe might be a little bit different than yours, you know? So I might pick the word discipline, and you might pick the word cruising.

• 20:36Speaker 01

  No, I don't know.

• 20:37Jocko Willink?

  All right, next one. As water collects at the base of the quiet mountain, the enlightened person finds his level through learning, decisiveness, and correct persistence. So this is basically telling you to get better. The idea of correct persistence, by the way, is also, oh, it's it's in here a lot, correct persistence. And what's what's interesting about that is that's throwing a caveat on persistence. Cause it's not like, hey, you just keep going no matter what.

• 21:10Speaker 01

  Right.

• 21:10Jocko Willink?

  That would be just persistence. Hey, I'm just gonna be persistent. But at a certain point, correct persistence is, you know what? Maybe that's not quite the right thing to keep going after, right now. Like, you didn't get it done. You can't get it done. You're wasting a bunch of time, resources, and expenses. So you want to use correct persistence, not just persistence, but correct persistence. So that's in here a lot. But to think that you're gonna find your level in life by learning, that's smart wisdom. We should listen. Next one.

• 21:43Jocko Willink?

  Do not be anxious, but wait with confidence. The moment will arrive when correct persistence brings progress. Again, if you were shaking your eight ball, like, I don't know if I should keep going to college. What does it tell you? Hey, correct persistence is going to bring progress. Be patient. Don't be anxious. Okay. Or you're working on a project and it feels like it's overwhelming. You shake your magic eight ball or you throw your, your coins and it tells you, hey, the moment will arrive when correct persistence brings. Okay, great. I'm going to keep going. So this is just common. It's a nice way of telling you, hey, freaking keep working, bro.

• 22:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:22Jocko Willink?

  That's what it's saying.

• 22:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:25Jocko Willink?

  Uh, next one. Heaven and water, strength and profundity conflict. Avoid confrontation, yield with caution, persist not against obstacles. And this is so good. It's so good. Like avoid confrontation. That's smart. That's smart. Now, sometimes people paint that in a negative way. Like, oh, that, that person avoids conflict, right? That person's going to avoid confrontations. But if you're doing something that I don't like, and I choose to build a relationship with you and use an indirect method and gain your trust and confidence, and you start to listen to me and I start to listen to you, and then I can get you to stop doing something that doesn't make, that I don't like. Great, that's good.

• 23:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:09Jocko Willink?

  And that's what they're talking about here.

• 23:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. You guys, uh, you, Carlos Mendez is, uh, one of the proliferators of this expression. Came from you is, uh, nothing good has ever come from an antagonistic relationship. So it's essentially that, right? Where, where the idea of like conflict, like avoid conflict in a good way. Like, no one's saying fear conflict. No one's saying that because that's the way we all feel like, oh, he just likes to avoid conflict. You know, like out of fear.

• 23:37Jocko Willink?

  What it should be is avoid conflict because there's a better way to resolve the situation. That's going to be more efficient, faster, and it's going to end up with a better result. That's what it should be.

• 23:47Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 23:48Jocko Willink?

  You know what I mean? Because people hear, oh, avoid confrontation. Okay, jog was just a pushover. No, I'm actually going to win in the long run in a more effective way. We're going to have a better relationship and things will work out better overall in the end. That's what I'm doing. Now, you can go and confront people all day long and build a bunch of bad relationships and have antagonistic feelings with the people that you work with. You can do that.

• 24:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:08Jocko Willink?

  And you might think you're being directed is really helpful, but it's not. And it's interesting too, that the next thing, it says avoid confrontation, but then there's a dichotomy to that because the next thing it says is yield with caution. So I'm not just like, oh, you know, Echo wants to do it this way. Oh, I gotta go. Okay. It's not the smartest thing to do. So there's a nice little balance between avoiding confrontation and yet still paying attention to when you yield. And then persist not against obstacles. Now, clearly, well, not clearly, but my assumption is that means sort of like an impassable obstacle. What are you going to do? Keep beating your head against the wall? No, don't persist against an obstacle that's there. Instead, find another way around it. Don't waste a bunch of energy. Ancient wisdom coming at you.

• 24:53Jocko Willink?

  Don't beat your head against the wall. Next one, the wise person will find strength in the company of many fellows. Oh, be a part of a big group. Build a team.

• 25:06Jocko Willink?

  With leadership, there will be correct persistence and good fortune. Yep. Work together as a team, have good leader, you're going to go, you're going to, everything's going to go good.

• 25:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. Do you, so I was thinking about the idea of leadership on the way down here, by the way.

• 25:19Jocko Willink?

  What was?

• 25:20Speaker 01

  I don't know why.

• 25:22Speaker 01

  The, but it's crazy.

• 25:25Jocko Willink?

  Because I'm literally thinking about leadership almost 24 hours a day.

• 25:28Speaker 01

  But you know, okay, so part of the reason why, why, why it's so valuable to you is because you've come to pretty much, as far as I understand, pretty much a hundred percent of understanding what leadership is and the value of it. So a lot of people, they don't, a lot of ship, a lot of people, they think how you guys put the traditional leader. And I want to be the, if someone wants to be the leader. Or is interested in leadership for themself. They think, oh, I want to be the boss. I want to be the guy in charge. I want to be the, you know, so it's almost like maybe like a little, maybe an ego or narcissistic or like power hungry or whatever kind of a thing, an idea.

• 26:01Jocko Willink?

  Don't make me start talking about the psychology of military incompetence right now, authoritarian mindsets. Don't make me do that.

• 26:06Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 26:06Jocko Willink?

  We can do it. We've done it for four podcasts, but okay.

• 26:08Speaker 01

  Keep in mind, even if you think of the idea of the benevolent leader, you still have a lot of some flavors of, oh, you want to be in charge. You want to be the hero. You want to be like, that's the, that's how it lands, I think, generally speaking. But leadership is not that.

• 26:21Jocko Willink?

  So right. Hey, if I showed up to the new team and it's like, hey, guys, don't worry. I'm a benevolent, I'm a benevolent leader. It's the same type of arrogance that comes across.

• 26:29Speaker 01

  Right. At least some hints, a little some smells of that for sure. But here's what leadership actually really is more comparable to. So let's say you, you ever play Legos?

• 26:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 26:40Speaker 01

  Okay. So.

• 26:41Jocko Willink?

  Well, actually, okay. My parents, no, I'm just going to say this. No big deal.

• 26:46Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 26:46Jocko Willink?

  Legos were like the high end thing. My freaking parents got me something called lock blocks. So here's the deal. And they might still be around. I don't know. But lock blocks, here's what, what sucked was lock blocks did not go with Legos. So like when all your friends would get together to build some cool shit, like some giant buildings, maybe some Star Wars stuff. I don't know. They're building big stuff.

• 27:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:09Jocko Willink?

  I'm over here in the corner with like thirty eight lock blocks, building jack. Can't even participate in the game, right? Can't even participate with the team.

• 27:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm sorry.

• 27:19Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 27:19Speaker 01

  I'm sorry.

• 27:20Jocko Willink?

  So there you go. So yeah, I played with, I got close. I was, I was, I was Lego adjacent.

• 27:27Speaker 01

  There you go. So you understand. You know what Legos?

• 27:29Jocko Willink?

  Yep. Yep. Kind of a source file over here.

• 27:32Speaker 01

  I know, bro. Sorry.

• 27:33Jocko Willink?

  Did you have real, did you have real Legos?

• 27:34Speaker 01

  Legos were a massive part of my whole life. I still currently have, although my kids do now, but I participate a hundred percent.

• 27:40Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah. I got my kids for real Legos, legit Legos.

• 27:44Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Well, there's different sizes too. There's like the, you know.

• 27:46Jocko Willink?

  On the lockbox scene.

• 27:49Speaker 01

  No.

• 27:50Jocko Willink?

  I can't wait to Google lockbox and see if they're still around.

• 27:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. Legos, toolbox, anything where you have essentially, okay, so Legos I like, I liked the analogy because Legos are like, if you know how to use Legos, you know how they work, you know how they interact with each other and how they they might not interact with certain parts and how they do interact with certain parts. And you have a direction and a goal or whatever, and if you, the more Legos you have and the more different types of pieces of Legos that you have, the more you, cool stuff you can build. So you can be like, I want to build a rocket ship, cool. Do I have the Lego pieces? Or at the very least enough Lego pieces to make a rocket ship, how big, how small, whatever, like you can kind of do anything with the right Lego pieces.

• 28:33Speaker 01

  But if you don't know how they work, if you don't know how to put them together, if you don't have like any direction or whatever, they're just a bunch of Lego pieces. No matter how cool or capable those Lego pieces are. So in leadership, it's essentially you can have a great team of people, this guy's so good at this, this guy's so good at the other thing, like a football team, I've always thought was a really good representation of a team with leadership and, you know, because everyone has their different roles, right? You can have the best quarterback, the best wide receivers, best running back, all this stuff, if they don't work together. If three guys are pissed, four guys hate this guy, this guy's jealous of that guy, like they just won't, they won't work together. The same way you can't put together any kind of Lego construction. If you don't know how the pieces work together, if you don't know where they fit together, you know?

• 29:18Jocko Willink?

  I really like that analogy, it's a really close, my only problem with that analogy is

• 29:24Speaker 01

  The Legos, I understand.

• 29:25Jocko Willink?

  No, no, no, no, no, no. What kind of person looks at Legos and says, I can't understand how these things work?

• 29:33Jocko Willink?

  I wish there was something, there was some component of that thing, that there was some sort of understanding of what you had. Because anyone can look at a Lego and say, oh, they fit together like this.

• 29:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:46Jocko Willink?

  Now, I understand, you get these high-end sets, which I kind of, I'm more like a traditional Lego dude, right? I think you should get like the regular ones, maybe some long skinny ones, maybe some long, the little flat ones, maybe some angular 45 degree angles. And then you can work with that, right?

• 30:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:05Jocko Willink?

  You don't need to be getting all with the things that get real specific, like custom, almost like a custom Lego.

• 30:12Speaker 01

  Right.

• 30:12Jocko Willink?

  But your analogy is correct, and leadership is the person that's going to take these pieces. And get them to all build something great. Yes, you are correct.

• 30:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, so if you um.

• 30:25Speaker 01

  Where you okay, the idea of.

• 30:27Jocko Willink?

  It's like, you know, it would be a little bit better of an analogy is chemistry.

• 30:32Jocko Willink?

  You know, a chemist can look at these different elements and say, oh, I need to add this element, this element and this element. Like in the book Blood Meridian, they're out of gunpowder. And. The judge. Knows how to make gunpowder. And so they are able to create gunpowder.

• 30:53Jocko Willink?

  No one else could take the various components and create gunpowder. He could. So that's a little bit better than example than just Legos.

• 31:00Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 31:01Jocko Willink?

  Because Legos.

• 31:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, you don't like Legos.

• 31:03Jocko Willink?

  No, no, no, it's not that I don't like Legos, but anyone can figure out, you're like, you can figure out how to put Legos together. I mean, dude, you gotta be a real ignorant person to figure out how them things work.

• 31:13Speaker 01

  I I feel that as well, but I just have a lot of experience with Legos, but again, and then again, look, but. Think about it.

• 31:20Jocko Willink?

  Try to call me out on my Lego skills.

• 31:23Speaker 01

  Yes, sir, but. And look, I'm not.

• 31:25Jocko Willink?

  Do they Lego competitions? They have competitions for everything, right? Do they have Lego competitions that they must? I wonder what the challenges. It'd be cool if it was an engineering challenge where it was like, oh, you gotta build a, you know, a. Three foot span of bridge and it's got to carry this much weight. There's your Lego challenge. Cause anytime you make something. Oh, it's just gonna how good it looks, you're kind of whack.

• 31:48Speaker 01

  I would imagine with something as versatile as Legos or lock blocks, as the case may be. It would depend on the kind of challenge, like how you said, like if it's an engineering challenge, that's a different kind of challenge than just a quote unquote general Lego challenge. Like who, what? Who can make this spaceship? Cause you know how Legos come in sets, right?

• 32:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 32:06Speaker 01

  So who can make that spaceship the quickest? Yeah, or whatever, or who can make the biggest? Yeah, so I I don't know and I'm I think so. That my answer that comes to my head, you share this Lego competition. And I'm not gonna sit here and and. What do you call be a.

• 32:20Jocko Willink?

  Wait, how about the Lego movies? You must be into those.

• 32:22Speaker 01

  No.

• 32:23Jocko Willink?

  Have you not seen them?

• 32:24Speaker 01

  I I've seen some of my kids watch them and stuff. There's, yeah.

• 32:27Jocko Willink?

  I've watched a decent amount of the Lego, I think the first Lego movie. With President Business, which I think is one of the all time classic names. And it's a interesting movie because it's about creativity and having an open mind, which is very important thing to teach young kids. And interestingly. What I don't like about that is there's some people, people have various levels of that open mindedness. People have various levels of creativity and to sort of hold that as a standard for a kid and be like, hey, it's sort of like if they made a movie about being tall. You know, there's some kids that are not tall, right? And where do you draw that line?

• 33:11Jocko Willink?

  So it's really cool to say like, hey, have an open mind and be creative and create new things. A lot of people don't have that knack, right?

• 33:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:19Jocko Willink?

  They, and that's okay. You know, it's the last podcast that we did talked about that. And it talked about it in a real politically incorrect way.

• 33:26Speaker 01

  Oh, for real?

• 33:27Jocko Willink?

  A real politically incorrect way, which is like, oh, if you score this score on the standard test that we're giving to all people in the army. Actually, I don't even know if we covered this on the podcast because I might've just skipped or I might've not covered it. But they had like a standardized test that you took in 1941.

• 33:46Speaker 01

  Wait, you're, are you still talking about the Lego movie or no?

• 33:48Jocko Willink?

  Well, I'm about to.

• 33:49Speaker 01

  Okay, okay.

• 33:50Jocko Willink?

  Which was, oh, you take the standard test and you have a certain level, capacity to learn, to do math. And they go, okay, if you got this on the test, you can be an engineer in the military. If you don't, you can't be an engineer. And by the way, if you're really low on this scoring, you're gonna be on the bottom end of the jobs that we have for you. You might be a person that's peeling potatoes. I mean, we talked about this when we talked about the, the IQ test that they lowered in the Vietnam War. And they started taking people that were mentally disabled and allowing them to be in the army.

• 34:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:29Jocko Willink?

  And that's horrible. And Jordan, I think Jordan Peterson, I want to say something like 10% of the population has an IQ of less than 85. And then it's really hard to employ somebody that has an IQ of less than 85. Now they can be employed. But. You gotta find a job that is very suitable for them. So when you're making the Lego movie and you're exalting creativity.

• 34:58Speaker 01

  What is exalting?

• 34:59Jocko Willink?

  Like saying, saying, yes, holding it up. This is the best way you want to be super creative. There's some people that don't, because, because by the way, you're not, you, you can test people for intellect, but you can also test them for hand eye coordination. You can test them for, you can test them for creativity. You can test them for problem solving and, and so we're, we're exalting this one type of thing.

• 35:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:19Jocko Willink?

  And some people might think that's the path they need to go down and yet they don't have that capability. You know, a good one is music, right?

• 35:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:26Jocko Willink?

  Some people can hear. Now you, you can train and get better, but some people can naturally hear a C note.

• 35:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:34Jocko Willink?

  They can naturally, I think Jamie Cochran can sing a C. Right. Cause she, she went to college and she was a singer. And, and so she can sing a C. She could, you can say, you know, Jamie, give me C flat and she'll, ah, whatever, right?

• 35:49Speaker 01

  Hell, yeah.

• 35:50Jocko Willink?

  But there's, and there's a certain amount of natural capable capability. We talked about the, now this, I know we did talk about on the, on the podcast, the tonal languages, right? So some people cannot hear tone. Now listen, I guess if you grew up with a tonal language, you would be trained. So maybe it's something that you just didn't get and you can't figure it out. But the fact remains, if they wanted, if I was a failure at picking up tone. And then they watched a movie and said, hey, everyone should join the military. And the most elite thing you can do is go learn Vietnamese. And I'm like, yeah, that's the best job you can get. And so now I go and I can't do it.

• 36:32Jocko Willink?

  Instead of looking at me and saying, hey, you might be good at this, but you might be good at that. You might be strong, you might be fast, you might be smart, you might be good at math. But when we exalt one thing, and you know what, I might be being too harsh on the Lego movie. That was sort of the impression that I remember was I was like, oh, that's cool. They're trying to teach people, just don't follow what the package says.

• 36:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:53Jocko Willink?

  Just don't follow the directions every single time and create what everyone else created. Create something new. You know, there's a whole thing about the gluing of the pieces together. That's what's going on in the movie. Like, like, there's people that just, they want to glue that thing together so it can never change. We made this thing, we just want the structure to stand.

• 37:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:11Jocko Willink?

  And other people are like, hey, man, let's mix it up. They're exalting creativity. Again, there's nothing wrong with exalting creativity. But if you're a person that lacks creativity, and now you're forcing yourself to try and become a creative person, when what you should be, you know, let's take engineer versus artist. Right? There's some people that are going to be a better artist. There's some people that are going to be a better engineer. If all we do is exalt artists, the people that should be going to become an engineer might not get there.

• 37:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:38Jocko Willink?

  Or they might feel bad when they get there.

• 37:40Speaker 01

  Right. And I think that's the key there where, and I don't remember the message of the Lego movie. I just remember it was on, kids are watching it. I liked the effects.

• 37:48Jocko Willink?

  Watch it next time. Watch it for real. It's a good movie.

• 37:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I understand. Even just what you said, I was like, kind of, that makes sense. But keep in mind, I don't know, maybe I'm just sort of maybe being a devil's advocate in this way where, um, if there, it depends how they're exalting the creativity. So if they kind of start with, hey, the mainstream is people following the directions, gluing the pieces together, and like these other people who, or some version of this, where the other people, they're like, hey, I don't want to necessarily do that. I, because I'm fielded, I'm pulled towards this other thing to start experimenting. First off, that's how Legos really are.

• 38:24Jocko Willink?

  In real life.

• 38:24Speaker 01

  You put together the thing, and then after that, you break it apart, and then you just start making whatever. In fact, you're not going to follow the directions more than once.

• 38:31Jocko Willink?

  We're about to go down. We're about to go down. It's about to go down. Here's the thing. I think lately, we've been exalting creativity so much that people are, are just trying to be different for the sake of being different. And what, the reason I can bring this up right now is because as we read through the I Ching, you're going to say, you're going to see that a lot of what they're saying is like, be normal. Be normal is a positive thing. Now. It kind of bummed me out because when I was going to college, there was a woman there that was a Buddhist monk. And when I, when I was in college, I had to take classes about religion and you get that vibe from Buddhism,

• 39:13Jocko Willink?

  which is like, hey, don't stand out, you know, fit in like you just want. And that's why when you go to, you know, when I was in Thailand and we'd see the Buddhist monks, guess what? All the Buddhist monks dressed the same. They all have shaved head. They all wear the same outfit. They all eat the same. They walk, they, they, like, that's part of the gig. That's part of the thing. Is, hey, I'm not trying to stand out. I'm not trying to be a big individual. But there was this woman that was a monk at my college. And if she was obeying Buddhism, guess what she would have done, in my opinion, in my judgmental opinion, which I certainly can be extremely judgmental. I would look at her, she'd be walking around, she had a shaved head and she was walking around in, in the Buddhist outfit, right? And I was thinking, and she was a Western woman, you know, she was from Canada or something like this.

• 39:59Jocko Willink?

  And I was thinking, oh, if she was really on board, then wouldn't you just want to like, quote unquote, fit in with everybody else? Maybe. Look, I'm not a Buddhist. I don't know. But I definitely got that, that thought in my mind. Now, there might be some part of Buddhism that I don't know, which is, hey, you need to represent so other people can see it. I don't know. Maybe, right? There's some religions that you got to dress a certain way. Because you want other people to see that you are representing the religion or cult. Because you, you know what Bhagwan Sri Rajneeshas? Do you know what that is?

• 40:34Speaker 01

  Oddly, yeah, I kind of do, yeah.

• 40:37Jocko Willink?

  Okay, well, they made a, they made a documentary about it. Wild, wild country. Did you see it?

• 40:42Speaker 01

  No.

• 40:42Jocko Willink?

  Well, I was very interested in it because when I was growing up, one of my friends' parents were into that. They were like, and they would wear these orange or whatever, purple outfits. And that was part of the.

• 40:58Speaker 01

  Is it okay to call that a cult right now?

• 40:59Jocko Willink?

  Think it might be.

• 41:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:01Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so they were, that was part of the cult was like you gotta dress that way so other people can see that you represent the cult.

• 41:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't think Buddhism is like that. I don't know either. Like, I know there's all these like surface level things that you're like, wait a second, they, they, you know, there's a lot of questions for sure. Now with that, of course, with superficial observations, all your questions, it's like, man, if you don't look into it, how are you ever gonna get the answers to the questions? I get it. So I get it. It's like a little thought exercise, which is very useful, but I know you're just joking, but obviously there's no merit to cast any judgment if you don't know all this stuff, right? It's like judgment out of ignorance, whatever. So the Buddhism could be. I don't know if it is or not.

• 41:39Jocko Willink?

  Just going down.

• 41:41Speaker 01

  It could be like, hey.

• 41:42Jocko Willink?

  To my Buddhist people out there, I'm sorry.

• 41:44Speaker 01

  It's like, you know, you're letting go of like certain like real world materials, like stuff, right? And one is hair, like, and just like how you said, hair is just here to look good. We don't need it. We're here for, you said they win, but Buddhism might be like, hey, we're here for different reasons, you know? So hair, we're not gonna let that be part of our earthly possession or pride or ego or whatever, right? There's that. There's like all this other stuff, just like fashion and just like, there's probably a bunch of stuff that Buddhism lets go of. So you gotta wear that certain thing as a representation of that. That's currently the, what we arrived at. That's our best representation of it. It could be, I don't know, but it could be, hey, if.

• 42:20Jocko Willink?

  By the way, when you say our best representation, you mean that's what you and I, a couple idiots, a couple idiots on a podcast talking to each other. That's how we are interpreted at this time.

• 42:29Speaker 01

  Actually, I'm even just saying mine, really.

• 42:32Jocko Willink?

  Lump me into your mayhem.

• 42:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, I could be way off, probably am, but either way, it, it stands to reason to some degree or whatever, that, hey, that might be it, right? That might, might be how, or maybe they're like, hey, if you can find a better representation of this idea that goes super deep or whatever. If you can find a better representation, then hey, we'll do that. But right now, this is currently what we're at and this is what we're doing for these very specific reasons and boom.

• 42:56Jocko Willink?

  To bring this back a little bit. What I'm saying is if you are exulting being different and that becomes the main focus of everybody, then people that wanna kind of conform are now feeling like in order to be successful in life, their main goal should be to be different than everybody else. And it becomes a focus of life to be different when maybe you should focus on getting better, maybe you should focus on creating, maybe you should focus on participating, maybe you should focus on being a productive member of society.

• 43:36Jocko Willink?

  Because if you could be like, like if you, for instance, someone that has a less creative mind and they could be a really incredible construction worker, they could be really incredible in a factory, they could be really incredible, uh, doing any, being an engineer, being a doctor, right? Does a doctor require creativity? No, they're a, they're a mechanic for your body. So there's all these jobs that don't require this for you to be different and quote, think different. And yet we're exulting those things to the point where someone instead of saying, oh yeah, you know what? This looks like a good job. This looks like something I could be good at. I actually enjoy doing that kind of thing. I'll just go do that. Yeah. Instead we're saying, no, you gotta do something special. You gotta do something different.

• 44:20Jocko Willink?

  And I'm just saying, in my opinion, that's a problem. Yeah. Instead of, and, and where, where you get a, to your point, if you've got someone that has different thoughts and wants to be different and is naturally different, when we're trying to force them into conformity. Each one of those two ways is equally wrong. Trying to take someone that is just, should be normal and trying to get, force them to be different is just as bad as taking someone that's different and trying to force them to be normal. Yes. And I think right now, we're on the pendulum side of everyone lets, you know, you're different, be different, don't conform. Yeah. There's a, and again, we're gonna get into this, this, and that's why I'm like

• 45:05Jocko Willink?

  cleared hot talking this topic. There's a lot of it, you know, like, I, hey, I?

• 45:14Jocko Willink?

  Like you're talking about what you wear.

• 45:15Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 45:16Jocko Willink?

  Or what I wear, what a human being wears.

• 45:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:18Jocko Willink?

  For me, I don't want to wear something that that people would notice. You know what I mean? Like I, I don't like to, if someone gave me a, you know, a purple and pink tie to wear.

• 45:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:32Jocko Willink?

  I don't want to wear that. I don't want anyone to say, oh, that's a weird tie, or that's a nice tie. I don't want them to even notice that I'm wearing a tie. Like, what's the normal color tie to wear? It's a, you know, it's a black and red tie with Will Stripes on it. That's the norm, that's the normal thing.

• 45:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:46Jocko Willink?

  I want to be normal.

• 45:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:48Jocko Willink?

  Right? I'm not wearing flashy sunglasses. I wear the normal sunglasses.

• 45:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:55Jocko Willink?

  That's kind of like, and, and when I see somebody that's wearing stuff that is specifically made for attention, I'm always like, okay, you know, it's a little bit of a, little bit of a thing.

• 46:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:07Jocko Willink?

  Right? So I could even say that if you're a Buddhist monk and you're in a university setting, where everyone is wearing, you know, the professors are wearing whatever, a pair of slacks and whatever, you know, like a, there's a, let's face it, there's a uniform for a college professor.

• 46:24Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 46:24Jocko Willink?

  It's a pretty wide range, but there is a uniform, right? You're wearing pants, or if you're a female, maybe you're not wearing pants, but you're wearing a whatever, a skirt type thing, or a dress, you know what I mean? There's, there's a, there's a, a window that you're gonna fit in. And wearing a Buddhist monk outfit isn't in that window. So if you're wearing it, you're definitely gonna draw attention. And if you're drawing attention, well, that might not be representative of trying to conform and fit in. So there you go.

• 46:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, and then again, we don't know what Buddhism is. It sounds like I'm defending Buddhism. What I'm saying is, we can't just assume we know, like, what if the intention to fit in or stand out isn't, is, it's the intention, not the, the result, you know?

• 47:13Jocko Willink?

  We'll, we'll get someone on here, we'll get a Buddhist on here to talk, to talk us through this, because I don't want to sit here and we're discussing, no, we're, we're discussing things that we don't know anything about.

• 47:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:21Jocko Willink?

  We'll, we'll be quiet. We're, we're sorry.

• 47:23Speaker 01

  Uh, but the, real quick with the Lego movie, and, and I say this because this is kind of a very, isn't. Important distinction where if they're exalting creativity like as if to say like, hey, being creative is better than than being less creative or whatever, or following the instructions or whatever. If they're saying that, then okay, that's that's bad. But if the message overall is, and again, I forget the actual message, but if the message is, hey, we're all used to this, and there's a number of people who aren't very happy with this, and they're they're really pulled to do this other sort of creative.

• 47:55Jocko Willink?

  As I said, that message is fine. The message is fine to say, hey, if you're feeling creative, or you feel like a creative person, and you want to do things that are different, that's cool.

• 48:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:02Jocko Willink?

  But to tell everyone in that group.

• 48:04Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 48:04Jocko Willink?

  That putting the glue on the Legos and building things that are going to be stable and structured is bad, that's not right.

• 48:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, I agree.

• 48:11Jocko Willink?

  That's not right. So let's not get crazy with it. Let's not take any thing to an extreme. Let's be balanced.

• 48:17Speaker 01

  Yep. So there's also a movie, and you will not want to necessarily talk about this one, so bear with me. There's a movie called Tall Girl, because you mentioned height. You can't control height, right? So there's a movie called Tall Girl, and it's, you know, the classic story of girl in, you know, junior high, and she's way taller than everyone, like way taller. And it's one of those things where it's like, they made the movie, obviously, one of the reasons was because, hey, like, there are some people who they're not quote unquote, average height, and they feel left out, they feel weird, you know? And the movie basically sheds light on the idea that, hey, if you're a tall girl, you can still live life or whatever, don't feel weird, is what I'm saying. Like, hey, let's not, and that's why I asked, like, what does exalt mean? Because does that mean like, hey, let's try to light on it and show that it's not terrible? It's not,

• 49:02Speaker 01

  you're not a monster if you're tall, you're not? Or does it mean like, hey, if you're tall, you're actually better than the average people?

• 49:08Jocko Willink?

  That would be the, that would be the, obviously, no one would say, hey, that's a great movie, telling people that are taller that they're better.

• 49:16Speaker 01

  Right, exactly. That's the point.

• 49:18Jocko Willink?

  We don't, we don't want to do that.

• 49:19Speaker 01

  Right. So even, so I don't know if the Lego movie said that.

• 49:21Jocko Willink?

  Better at what, for one thing?

• 49:23Speaker 01

  Being tall.

• 49:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 49:24Speaker 01

  Right. So I don't know if the Lego movie is saying being the person who makes different stuff with the Legos is better than the people who don't.

• 49:32Jocko Willink?

  It definitely paints the creative person as the more heroic person.

• 49:35Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 49:35Jocko Willink?

  So that's why I'm calling it out. We can't go, we don't want to do that. And the weird thing is, like, let's say you're a parent. What do you want your parent to be? What do you want your kid to be? You want your kid to be all creative and special and all that stuff? Instead of being like, oh, I want my kid to do what is natural for them. Some people naturally will be better as an engineer than an artist.

• 49:59Jocko Willink?

  And don't try and force people to do something that they're not and and don't say, well, can't you just be more creative child? Why are you trying to follow the rules all the time? Right? You know, like that kind of thing?

• 50:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. You know, you know what I think in the grand scheme of things? I I do think.

• 50:13Jocko Willink?

  I do not know what you think of the grand scheme of things.

• 50:17Speaker 01

  With what you just said, I I think that parents want their kids to be safe more than they want them to be like. Of course, creativity, that's a good thing to be helped and foster and all that stuff or whatever. But you know, I'd say this, this story, this quote unquote, like hypothetical story is more common. This is what it feels like anyway for you. The story is usually the parents want the kid to do something that keeps them safe and more secure for success and like that kind of stuff more. So then hell, yeah, take some chances if you're pulled towards that. They're gonna be mad like so many stories is like, um, yeah, they they. I went to college for my parents and now, you know, I don't want to do that. I quit college because that wasn't my thing. That wasn't my thing. I want to go off the tracks. I want to do, you know, like stuff that I want to do. I want to take risks. I want to do the creative stuff. Meanwhile, my parents just wanted me to be a doctor

• 51:02Speaker 01

  or a lawyer or engineer or whatever. So I feel like the parents, that's usually the case. They want them to be safe.

• 51:08Jocko Willink?

  I would say that you have one, you know, you're looking at one perspective because there's definitely parents out there that, you know, are pushing their kids to be different.

• 51:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:18Jocko Willink?

  There's no, especially right now. Right now, there's definitely parents that are pushing their kids to be, their primary goal is to make them different. And that's not good. You gotta, your kids, let your kids be who your kids are.

• 51:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, that different for the sake of being different.

• 51:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you know what's funny is when you meet guys like in the military, you'll meet people that they're like, they'll have, usually have some weird name. Especially so.

• 51:43Speaker 01

  I can't speak on it.

• 51:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So when I was, especially when I got in to the military, so like we're talking nineties. You'd meet some guy, his name would be like, whatever, freaking Haiku.

• 51:55Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 51:55Jocko Willink?

  And you may, oh, your parents hippies? Yep. Like you'd know that their parents are hippies, like.

• 51:59Speaker 01

  I'm one of those people.

• 52:00Jocko Willink?

  You're one of those people. So.

• 52:03Speaker 01

  Haiku.

• 52:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, your name is Haiku.

• 52:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there's people, so my point is that their parents wanted the kid to be different, free spirited, but the kid's like, dude, I'm joining the freaking army. You know what I'm saying? Get me away from these freaking weirdos.

• 52:18Speaker 01

  That's a good point, sir.

• 52:20Jocko Willink?

  So, all right.

• 52:23Jocko Willink?

  Next one. The need for unity and collective awareness of the goal. Do, so that one right there, this is just good leadership advice. Make sure everyone understands and is unified towards a collective goal. Everyone needs to know what we're doing and, and, and be on board. And the next one says, do not procrastinate. So if you shook that magic eight ball every day and it said, do not procrastinate, that'd be good advice. And then join with others and return to the plan. Okay, that means focus on the mission.

• 52:54Jocko Willink?

  Next, restraint brings progress and satisfaction.

• 53:00Jocko Willink?

  I've heard people say that discipline equals freedom. Restraint brings progress and satisfaction. Yes, discipline equals freedom. Make minor changes and conceal all actions.

• 53:15Jocko Willink?

  I can't make minor, conceal all actions? Maybe that's a little bit sketch.

• 53:20Jocko Willink?

  The, and by the way, I'm not reading all these, although I read a lot of them. The wise leader benefits from harmony. Good fortune approaches. This is fortune cookie stuff right there, right? Like, oh, I'm not really sure what's gonna happen with this next project we're doing. Oh. We should work together, harmony.

• 53:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:39Jocko Willink?

  It's like, good, good advice, good, good job.

• 53:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, the fortune cookie thing, I think jams you up because we as individuals think the fortune cookie is made specifically for us.

• 53:50Jocko Willink?

  That's what all of these things are.

• 53:52Speaker 01

  Well.

• 53:53Jocko Willink?

  That's what, so okay, here's something I used to do.

• 53:57Jocko Willink?

  So I'd I'd be like out and talking to a girl and she'd be like, what sign are you? And I'd be like Sagittarius.

• 54:05Speaker 01

  But you're not a Sagittarius.

• 54:06Jocko Willink?

  But they would say like, oh, I knew it. Cause you're and then then it's and then I'd say, no, I'd let him talk for five minutes about how much of a Sagittarius I was. And then I'm just kidding. I'm not Sagittarius. Are you serious? What are you? And I'd be like a Scorpio. And oh, my God, I knew it.

• 54:22Speaker 01

  It's what a Scorpio, a Scorpio would do.

• 54:25Jocko Willink?

  But I'm not a Scorpio. You see what I'm saying? And I would trap them with that too. So, so all these things are made for everybody. It's kind of like who's gonna win the war.

• 54:35Speaker 01

  Right.

• 54:35Jocko Willink?

  Or no, what will happen if I invade this country? Oh, a great nation will fall. Okay, great. I'm gonna do it. Yeah, you end up falling and you think, what was wrong with the oracle? The oracle was right. War causes the fall of a nation. Just don't know which one.

• 54:50Speaker 01

  So I guess in a way, it's kind of like, in a way, it's kind of like marketing in a way where

• 54:56Speaker 01

  it's, this is the general term that's widely beneficial, right? This, these philosophy, these elements of philosophy, right? Where it's like, hey, don't make excuses, right? But me, as the individual, I'm coming to you with a specific problem. Don't tell me some widespread philosophy. I need the one for my problem, right? I open the fortune cookie. I come to ancient, uh, Jaco, the ancient master.

• 55:18Jocko Willink?

  You shake the eight ball.

• 55:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, I shake the eight ball. I, you ever seen the Jamaican one where they have the bones?

• 55:23Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 55:24Speaker 01

  It's like a, and they throw it on the, you know, and they throw it on.

• 55:26Jocko Willink?

  Cause when you go down to New Orleans.

• 55:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:28Jocko Willink?

  There's like voodoo going on. They might throw some bones too.

• 55:31Speaker 01

  Same deal. They're gonna tell you that same thing where this is ancient wisdom that applies everybody. But hey, I come to you with my problems. So like, hey, give me the answer to my specific problem. And then yours like make no excuse. You just grabbed from the group bucket, gave it to the individual and it landed. Weird, right?

• 55:47Jocko Willink?

  It's gonna land. That's the thing that you don't know. It's gonna land.

• 55:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, oh, dick.

• 55:52Jocko Willink?

  If you, if you come to me with your problem and I say, be disciplined, that's gonna land. You're gonna be like, yeah, I need to be more disciplined. It's gonna solve your financial problems, gonna solve your health problems. It's gonna solve your relationship. Everything I solve that problem. But because you came, even when you read about how to throw the coins or draw the, the sticks for this.

• 56:13Jocko Willink?

  It says, you know, think deeply. And it also says, you might get an answer that's wrong because you weren't really thinking, but you were thinking about something else.

• 56:25Jocko Willink?

  All right, next one. Strong persons give way to the inferior. Good advice, right? I give that people, people that leadership advice all the time. It's called listening. Listen to other people, listen to your subordinates. The enlightened person remains reserved to avoid misfortune. Yes. Don't make yourself stand out. Don't wear your freaking pink and orange jacket.

• 56:52Jocko Willink?

  Next one. Reorganize the dependence of all upon their fellows.

• 57:00Jocko Willink?

  Say that again. Reorganize the dependence of all upon their fellows. What does that mean? Everyone's got to work together, cover and move. The wise person seeks collective flow to gain advantage. Yes, we cover and move for each other. Work together.

• 57:13Jocko Willink?

  Resist evil, exalt good. Proper leadership brings great progress. But hey, if you gotta shake your eight ball every day, you know, you gotta, you're, you got a drug problem, you're addicted to alcohol, you have opportunities to do things that are nefarious. And it says, resist evil, exalt good. Guess what? Good advice. These are all, this is all good advice. This is all good advice.

• 57:45Jocko Willink?

  Progress comes by equality of extremes. What does that mean? It means be balanced. So next, so from harmony with supporters, does the wise person gain advantage? Yeah. Yeah. Harmony with the people, with your supporters, for sure. That's going to help you.

• 58:05Jocko Willink?

  Next one's about flexibility. The enlightened person adapts.

• 58:11Jocko Willink?

  Leads from, leads the way from darkness to comfort. So you got to adapt. In fact, the whole, this is lake above thunder below. This is flexibility.

• 58:22Jocko Willink?

  Be flexible. That's what they're saying. Cultivate action in others to bring about repair and great progress. Hmm. Get people to go.

• 58:33Jocko Willink?

  It's like, good advice. So the, next, so the enlightened person willing to teach and learn from others. Progress comes through persistence. They're big on persistence. But, yes, willing to teach, willing to learn. Yes, that's a positive thing. That's, that makes sense. The rulers of old traveled the world. They visited its regions and contemplated its many cultures. Explore new ideas. That's always gonna help you. Next, achieve progress through reform. Administer justice. Those are positive. Next, the wise person perceives and avoids disputes. That's really good advice to give people. Oh, there's disputes gonna happen.

• 59:18Jocko Willink?

  I'm gonna avoid that. Again, we could go down the, oh, that, that doesn't mean we're fearing any, you know, confrontation and we're never gonna do it. But we're probably gonna, we're, we should find a better way. We should find a better way. That's what we should be doing. That's what I recommend doing. Enlightened people stabilize their lives through generosity toward the needy. Beautiful. Help other people, especially people that need it. The enlightened person studies the past's wisdom to develop his own character. Yes. I think we made an entire podcast about that. About studying the past wisdom to develop our own character. Yes. That's 100% what we should be doing.

• 1:00:02Jocko Willink?

  Support goals that are above question, but be cautious in expression and avoid the negative. Correct persistence brings one good fortune. And that's, you know, as, as I'm reading these, when it talks about persistence in some of these predictions, it's telling you be persistent. Like, there's some of them that don't have that. The ones that say correct person, so then you'd be encouraged. But there's very few of them that say do not pers- do not persist. There's very few of these that say that. Most of them are encouraging to keep going. The enlightened person withdraws from progress, withdraws from the world to progress toward an independent goal. Stress is imminent. What do I like about that?

• 1:00:47Jocko Willink?

  If you've got goals, you got things you wanna get done, there's gonna be stress. Stress is imminent. Be ready for it.

• 1:00:55Jocko Willink?

  That's a good thing. When you, when, when someone tells you, you know, when you go set out to do something, I'm like, hey, man, that's gonna be, it's gonna be hard. That steel, if I tell you psychologically, this impact on you, if I say, oh yeah, here's an example. Hey, you know, if you came up to me and said, hey, Jocko, have you rolled with Fred yet, that new black belt from this academy? And he wrestled in college? Have you rolled with him yet? I go, yeah, man, he's, he's, he's not, he's not as good as you think, and he's not very strong. You'd be like, okay, cool. And then you wrestle with him, or you train with him, and he's like, actually strong. Actually, regardless of how strong he is, he's gonna feel stronger because your, your mindset was he was weak.

• 1:01:36Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 1:01:36Jocko Willink?

  If I told you, hey, this guy's a killer, he's freaking strong as hell, he's gonna feel weaker than you anticipated, in most cases.

• 1:01:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:43Jocko Willink?

  In most cases.

• 1:01:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, that, that idea of getting caught off guard with certain things that you never really thought about, you know, the small detailed things, like, uh, like, um, fasting was one that, you know, when you fast, it's like, oh, you're gonna feel hungry, or you're gonna feel, like, the certain feelings that come along with fasting, if you're not ready for them, you'd be like, oh, and you won't be able to deal with it. But yeah, being able to kind of brace for impact in a way, you know?

• 1:02:05Jocko Willink?

  You gotta set the right expectations, the right expectations. It's just like when someone tells you, like, a movie is awesome. That's the worst thing you can tell somebody about a movie. Actually, no, I was going to see Little Birds with Elgin James.

• 1:02:16Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:02:16Jocko Willink?

  It was going to, I was going to the preview. So it wasn't out yet. And we're driving to it. And I say, hey, man, I was like, so what's the, what's the story with this? And he goes, oh, you know, he goes, there's two girls and they're living out in Nylund, California, and out by the Salton Sea, and they wanna get out of that town. And he's like, it was like me and you growing up. I was like, oh, that's awesome, man. I go, so then what happened? He goes, well, then they go to, he goes, then they go to LA and, and shit goes sideways. And, and you know, dude, I'm, I'm not even thinking about this. I go, oh, what goes sideways? I'm like, what happens? This is as we're driving to see this, like, like a seven minute drive. I go, so what, I was like, oh, what goes sideways? And he goes,

• 1:03:01Jocko Willink?

  I'll just let you see. And I was, and when he said that, I was, I was kind of like,

• 1:03:07Jocko Willink?

  Uh, dude, like, are you serious right now? You know what I mean? I was kinda like, bro, like, just tell me, this is no big deal. Like, I don't care about your silly movie or what. You know what I mean? Kinda like that, like, of course, you know, like, I just, but I was just like, okay. I, my, my mind was, okay. But I said, like, okay, you know, I was trying to be cool about it.

• 1:03:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:27Jocko Willink?

  And then, when the movie was over, I was like, thank you so much for not telling me how that went down. Cause it is like, very impactful.

• 1:03:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:35Jocko Willink?

  And if you know it's coming, it's not gonna hit you the same way.

• 1:03:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:40Jocko Willink?

  Boy, it's your boy. Movie's Little Birds by Elgin James. Uh, I think you can get it on, you know, the streaming platforms. I think you can get it on Apple.

• 1:03:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:50Jocko Willink?

  Hmm, what is it? Apple TV.

• 1:03:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:53Jocko Willink?

  I think you can get on there.

• 1:03:53Speaker 01

  It's not a brand new movie, though.

• 1:03:55Jocko Willink?

  No, no, no, it's, it's right, it's old. Have you seen Little Birds?

• 1:03:57Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:03:57Jocko Willink?

  Oh.

• 1:03:58Speaker 01

  I saw the trailer.

• 1:03:59Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. It is one of those movies where you, you definitely, you're not gonna feel comfortable or good about things when you're done. Yeah. No, you'll feel okay at the end of it, you'll be like, alright, we're gonna be okay. But in the middle, in the, towards the end of it, you, you don't feel good about the world, you know? You're kinda not feeling good about the world. And I guess that's sort of the, the little uplift at the end. There's a little bit of an uplift at the end, you walk out of the theater going, but you definitely, yeah. So, Little Birds.

• 1:04:34Speaker 01

  Don't spoil it, yeah. You know how, and just like what you essentially were saying, you wanna go in fresh to these movies.

• 1:04:39Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 1:04:40Speaker 01

  And Elgin James, you know, Good Autumn, where he, he wanted you to go in fresh.

• 1:04:43Jocko Willink?

  Me fresh. But the weird thing is, like, this is my bro.

• 1:04:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:47Jocko Willink?

  Like, where, you know, he would literally tell me anything, I would literally tell him anything. That's why when he's like, I'll just let you see the movie, I was kinda, bro.

• 1:04:55Speaker 01

  Wait, what were you thinking, though?

• 1:04:57Jocko Willink?

  I was thinking he was gonna tell me, like, oh yeah, this is what happens.

• 1:04:58Speaker 01

  Oh, you were mad he didn't tell you?

• 1:05:00Jocko Willink?

  I was kinda like, yeah, it was almost, look, this is a guy that I grew up, you know, like, we've been together.

• 1:05:05Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:05:05Jocko Willink?

  And I, we tell each other whatever, like, every, every little detail. So, it was probably the first time in my life.

• 1:05:15Jocko Willink?

  That that I he was like not gonna tell me something.

• 1:05:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, and you were offended, not offended.

• 1:05:21Jocko Willink?

  And I was slightly offended.

• 1:05:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, by that.

• 1:05:23Jocko Willink?

  No, no, never mind. You kind of know. I was like slightly offended. Like, bro, are you serious right now?

• 1:05:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:28Jocko Willink?

  Like, you know, we know everything.

• 1:05:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:33Jocko Willink?

  We would tell I would I would literally tell him everything.

• 1:05:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:36Jocko Willink?

  For my whole life. And now all of a sudden, he's like, well, you can wait and find out. I mean, it's just jacked up. It seemed jacked up at the time.

• 1:05:43Speaker 01

  Messed up. But so but what he what he was doing was actually you weren't offended by that. You weren't offended by like what you say about this movie is not gonna affect me either way. So you should just it wasn't that. It was just the fact like, oh, I thought you were my bro. You're not gonna tell me.

• 1:05:58Jocko Willink?

  Bro, you told me literally everything that's happened in your whole life.

• 1:06:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:06:01Jocko Willink?

  And I've told you everything that happened in my whole life, everything. And now you made a silly movie.

• 1:06:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:05Jocko Willink?

  And you're not gonna tell me what the plot is and I'm gonna watch it. This is a seven minute ride, by the way. It wasn't like we were in the car for an hour. Like, we're gonna start watching the movie. So I was like, I was frustrated that he was gonna tell me like, maybe we had a four hour car ride, you could see, but I only had to wait six more minutes to get to watch the actual movie.

• 1:06:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:24Jocko Willink?

  But the it's very interesting, the way those expectations set you set. You can set yourself up with expectations.

• 1:06:30Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:06:30Jocko Willink?

  Whether you think this guy's gonna roll good or this guy's gonna roll bad or, you know, you can really put yourself in a good spot or a bad spot based on what what your expectations are. And you have to be very careful with your team when you do that. When you tell someone on your team, oh, we're gonna dominate this presentation. Oh, I've worked with this client before. They don't ask any hard questions. Okay, cool. Now people don't prepare. The first question is gonna be a doozy.

• 1:06:56Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:06:56Jocko Willink?

  So you gotta pay attention to that.

• 1:07:01Jocko Willink?

  The wise person learns confidence through danger.

• 1:07:06Jocko Willink?

  Remain calm in mind. Keep all actions virtuous. Again, read that to yourself every morning. Right? And confidence through danger, I think we could probably, ah, if my interpretation of the Chinese word is discomfort, right? Or, or putting yourself in situations that you're not used to, that's how you gain confidence. Right? You gotta, you gotta be outside your stress level. Now, this doesn't mean you go out, you know, if you want to get more confidence in fighting, you don't go and challenge the freaking, you know, two time state champion wrestler from California. That's a black belt in jujitsu. And you don't talk smack to him. No, you start by training with someone that's a little bit better than you and you start to gain confidence. Eventually,

• 1:07:48Jocko Willink?

  you can train with people that haven't been training as long as you and you get more confident. So, yes, you have to, you have to push yourself beyond what you're capable of in order to gain competency and confidence. Keep all actions virtuous. Hey, amazing.

• 1:08:05Jocko Willink?

  Ancient wisdom or common sense? I don't care. Do it. Next, the enlightened person cultivates intelligence and gains progress through correct persistence. Align yourself with goals that bring enlightenment. Yeah. Don't do dumb shit. I think we just did a podcast about that.

• 1:08:24Jocko Willink?

  Marriage brings good fortune. I had to put some question marks by that one because that is not a known true statement. Again, this is when you, when you read these now and you think of them as predictions, as you are going to roll or flip the coins. And you're like, should I marry, you know, Jessica? And then it says marriage brings good fortune. You're like, okay, I'm in. But here's the thing, if you're asking that question in the first place, was that good or bad?

• 1:08:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:58Jocko Willink?

  Accept others and act openly. I think that's a great advice. All change is imminent. Yep, things are going to change. Activity and change teach well the value of endurance. Stand firm and move with persistence toward a goal. This thing leans toward being persistence, persistent. That's what it leans toward and that's a good way to lean in life. A good way to lean in life is keep going. Now listen, let's say you were the guy that was ma- that made this thing up in order to make some money by doing predictions for people.

• 1:09:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:28Jocko Willink?

  You could probably say be persistent eight times out of 10.

• 1:09:32Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:09:32Jocko Willink?

  And then two times out of 10, you're like, may- maybe push the pump the brakes a little bit.

• 1:09:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:36Jocko Willink?

  And what happens? Let's say you say, oh, I want to try a new business venture. I'm like, yep, be persistent. And it's not doing very well. And you're like, should I keep going? And I say, yep, be persistent. And you say, wait a second, it's really hurting me. Should I keep going? And by now you get one that says, hey, pump the brakes. You know what I'm saying? So it's best to be persistent for a while. And then if you keep having to ask that question, maybe it's time to pump the brakes.

• 1:09:58Speaker 01

  So that's why they put correct persistence.

• 1:10:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's another reason.

• 1:10:01Speaker 01

  You know, the, that whole thing, and you know, we, you always talk about this, uh, idea of, um,

• 1:10:09Speaker 01

  giving up versus pivoting versus, you know, like the idea of like, hey,

• 1:10:13Jocko Willink?

  Tactical retreat.

• 1:10:14Speaker 01

  Yes, tactic. So it's more like, if you understand a, uh, your end goal, you're not giving up on the brick wall. You're just, hey, let's not beat our head against it. Let's go around it or let's do this, you know? Uh, so there's, there's always that puzzle to sort of, to solve. So like correct persistence is one of them where it kind of seems actually straight up, does seem like persistence, not like beating your head against the brick wall.

• 1:10:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:42Speaker 01

  Right? So it's like, okay, like,

• 1:10:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:44Speaker 01

  I gotta get past this wall to my other goal to then get my, uh, my, uh, overall goal, right? You got a brick wall, then you got a maybe a hill, right? Then you got the other goal. I can't get through this brick wall. Correct pers- or persistence is like, keep beating your head, keep trying to whatever. Correct persistence is, hey, hit it once, hit it twice. As you say, not 27 times. Let's, let's maybe take a quote unquote, longer way.

• 1:11:09Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 1:11:10Speaker 01

  And it'll be quick. So around the brick wall, now we got a hill.

• 1:11:12Jocko Willink?

  We still going up the mountain.

• 1:11:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:15Speaker 01

  So basically correct persistence is, hey, don't give up on the overall goal.

• 1:11:20Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 1:11:20Speaker 01

  Don't stop with it. Don't say, hey, it's too hard for me or whatever. Be like, hey, correct persistence is let's not get hung up on these little challenges in the same way. We got to be creative with these and change our like methods or whatever, as long as we get to that overall goal. So. Persistence doesn't mean beat your head against a brick wall. It doesn't mean

• 1:11:36Jocko Willink?

  Correct persistence.

• 1:11:37Speaker 01

  freaking walking 10 steps up the hill and falling back down 100 times. Correct persistence is don't give up on the end goal. You can change all these little tactical things in between.

• 1:11:45Jocko Willink?

  That's exactly what I wrote about in the book Leadership Strategy and Tactics Field Manual.

• 1:11:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:49Jocko Willink?

  So, um, this is a good one, very similar, same vein. The tranquil mountain occasionally hexagram 33 heaven above, mountain below. Retreat. The tranquil mountain remains quiet under heaven's gaze. So does the enlightened person maintain dignity in retreat?

• 1:12:11Jocko Willink?

  Like, hey, sometimes you gotta back out. That's cool. So again, you, you came to me with your little business that you're trying and I kept telling you persist. And then finally I'm like, retreat is okay. Seven out of 10 times, you're good. Occasionally you gotta retreat. Eight out of 10 times, maybe you're good. Occasionally you gotta retreat.

• 1:12:28Jocko Willink?

  The wise person acts within convention and with persistence. Use influence wisely. Hey, this is what I'm getting back to, like act within. There's a lot of that undertone in the eaching of like conform. Act within convention. This is the advice that it gives a lot. And guess what? If I'm trying to give you advice that percentage wise is gonna work out the best. Most of the time I'm gonna say, hey, take the conventional route, right? You know what I'm saying? If yours like, hey, you know, Jocko, I don't know if I want to be a, an engineer or a movie star.

• 1:13:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:09Jocko Willink?

  I'm like, hey, work within the convention.

• 1:13:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:13Jocko Willink?

  You know, and that's probably gonna be the best advice to give. There's a small chance you're gonna miss out on being a movie star, which I'm sure you probably pretty, pretty good one. But most of the times, seven out of 10, eight out of 10, nine out of 10 times, telling someone to do what's being done is a good move. Let's not try and reinvent the wheel. Next. So does the enlightened person reveal virtue? Conditions favorable for progress. Again, that's like telling you about your specific question that you're going through.

• 1:13:44Jocko Willink?

  Conceal goals, but do not abandon them. Trying conditions, but correct persistence brings one to advantage. Yeah, hey, man, keep going. Maybe conceal your goals a little bit, but keep going. The enlightened person acts in an orderly and substantial way.

• 1:14:05Jocko Willink?

  Faith and loyalty must be nurtured. Good advice. The enlightened person only acts in small matters. Maintain individuality. The enlightened person examines and perfects his own behavior to gain strength. This is incredible advice. If you shook the magic eight ball or opened your fortune cookie, and it said, "Perfect your own behavior to gain strength," that's good advice. You should do that.

• 1:14:37Jocko Willink?

  The enlightened person finds good fortune in quick action to restore normal conditions.

• 1:14:44Jocko Willink?

  Forgive others' faults. What incredible, strong advice. Forgive people when they mess something up. Forgive them for the faults that they may or may not have.

• 1:14:55Jocko Willink?

  And take action. Take action to get things fixed. And again, you see that little idea of returning to normal. Normal's a thing. I like normal.

• 1:15:06Jocko Willink?

  I like normal. I think normal is good. There's a reason why things are normal, because it works. I'm not addicted to normal. I don't maintain normal for all situations. But normal is a really good baseline for life.

• 1:15:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, and even the word "normal" is very multi-dimensional, if you will, where change in and of itself is normal. Like, it's pretty abnormal for someone to be the same, no matter what it is.

• 1:15:41Speaker 01

  But yeah, that abnormal stuff.

• 1:15:46Speaker 01

  Can jam you up.

• 1:15:47Jocko Willink?

  It's like predictable, right? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't normal sort of in, in right today, 2023, sometimes taken as offensive?

• 1:15:57Speaker 01

  Sometimes, yeah.

• 1:15:58Jocko Willink?

  If, if I say, oh, this is normal. And then all of a sudden, if you're not that, you have a problem.

• 1:16:04Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah. Um, wait, it's offensive if you're not normal or normal is bad.

• 1:16:11Jocko Willink?

  So if I was like, like that movie you're talking about tall, what's it called?

• 1:16:14Speaker 01

  Tall Girl.

• 1:16:16Jocko Willink?

  Hey, you're not normal.

• 1:16:18Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:16:19Jocko Willink?

  Cause you're tall.

• 1:16:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:21Jocko Willink?

  Right? That can be offensive.

• 1:16:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:23Jocko Willink?

  But you could apply that to like anything that is actually not normal. What is normal? Is there a percentage for normal? Hey, 80% of people, 80% of people are between, 80% of girls at age 12 are between the heights of whatever, 4'2" and 4'8" or whatever. I don't know what it is, but whatever it is, is it taller than that?

• 1:16:44Speaker 01

  Oh, I don't know.

• 1:16:45Jocko Willink?

  But whatever it is, that's actually, there's a, you could prove that that's what normal is.

• 1:16:50Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:16:51Jocko Willink?

  But now if I say that's normal, just say, oh, well, that's not, you like, like, let's say you took your kid to the, the doctor and they did the weight, or sorry, the height measurement. And they said, oh, your kid's not normal. You'd be a little bit mad?

• 1:17:11Speaker 01

  Me, no, no, I feel like, then again, this couldn't be just me, but I, I think it's general where normal is still one of those real in the middle of the road words. That's like, depend, really depends on how you're saying it. Like if your kid's acting or waiting and you say, hey, act normal, then normal's gonna be good.

• 1:17:26Jocko Willink?

  Um, I guess I've seen enough like triggered videos of like, that's not, how do you know what normal is? Like that kind of thing?

• 1:17:34Speaker 01

  Right, right, right.

• 1:17:35Jocko Willink?

  It's like, no, no, no, no. I'm saying that, you know, when we talk about the percentage of people that have this characteristic, it's 87% of people are this way.

• 1:17:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:46Jocko Willink?

  And that means that is actually normal.

• 1:17:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:48Jocko Willink?

  So if. Don't be, you can't get mad at that.

• 1:17:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:52Jocko Willink?

  I think, I think people get mad at that.

• 1:17:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:54Jocko Willink?

  People get mad at that, that they're not considered normal when it's just a, I'm sure there's some kind of a mathematical.

• 1:18:03Speaker 01

  Right, yeah.

• 1:18:04Jocko Willink?

  You know, calculation to figure out what normal is. Is normal, look, is normal seventy percent? I bet we all, I bet if you ask people what percentage is, what percentage constitutes normality? You probably get, oh, it's probably between sixty eight. Like if you asked a thousand people, what percentage makes something normal? I think people would say seventy or seventy five percent.

• 1:18:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, and I'm gonna, then again, I could be wrong about this, but normal feels like more of a feeling, so it's like what you're used to in my environment, just because, you know, the norm.

• 1:18:39Jocko Willink?

  But I'm saying that feeling that you're talking about, if you tried to isolate it or at least get a bracket around it, I bet that most people.

• 1:18:49Speaker 01

  Should have measured it.

• 1:18:50Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, if you try to measure it, most people's feeling about what normal is would probably be around seventy five percent.

• 1:18:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, and the, the reason that I say, and I would agree with you, and but, but the reason I'm saying it's a feeling is because technically, if you have a hundred people, and let's say, let's go fifty percent, actually, let's go forty percent. Forty percent have this one quality, very specific quality out of about, you know, thirty qualities. Thirty percent of them even, I'll even go down, thirty percent have this one quality. The rest of them have a bunch of different other qualities, almost like the majority versus the, you know, the non-majority or minority.

• 1:19:30Jocko Willink?

  I still don't think that's normal.

• 1:19:32Speaker 01

  Right, okay, so you, you wouldn't call that normal, okay, okay, cool, cool. But where's the line drawn, you know, so.

• 1:19:37Jocko Willink?

  I just said it.

• 1:19:38Speaker 01

  So, but here, okay.

• 1:19:38Jocko Willink?

  Seventy percent.

• 1:19:39Speaker 01

  Okay, let's go seventy percent. Let's go it, let's say there's.

• 1:19:46Speaker 01

  Five percent variation across the board, all hundred people, they're all different by a factor of five percent. Like five percent of this, five percent of this, this other thing, whether it be tall, short, whatever. The idea that everyone in a town.

• 1:19:59Jocko Willink?

  Twenty variants and they're all equal.

• 1:20:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:02Jocko Willink?

  There's twenty variants and they're all equal.

• 1:20:03Speaker 01

  They're all, yeah, they're different.

• 1:20:05Jocko Willink?

  Right, but there's twenty variants. Let's say you could have twenty different eye colors.

• 1:20:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:20:10Jocko Willink?

  And there's, and they're all five percent.

• 1:20:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, more or less. Yeah, there, there's no majority or minority, they're just dispersed evenly, right?

• 1:20:18Jocko Willink?

  Where are we going with this?

• 1:20:19Speaker 01

  Pretty evenly in this town.

• 1:20:21Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:20:22Speaker 01

  Right? For everyone, for every.

• 1:20:25Jocko Willink?

  New podcast called Hypothetical Echo.

• 1:20:27Speaker 01

  Okay. The, the idea or the fact that, the idea that everyone has all kinds of different eye colors.

• 1:20:35Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 1:20:35Speaker 01

  Is normal for that town.

• 1:20:37Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 1:20:38Speaker 01

  But if you go to the town, one more town right next to where everyone has the same color eye color, having different eye color in that town is not normal.

• 1:20:45Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:20:45Speaker 01

  See what I'm saying? So normality goes, it's like, it's, I don't know, it's like a real flowy, real fluid kind of feeling depending on your environment is what it feels like.

• 1:20:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:55Speaker 01

  Like what's the norm?

• 1:20:56Jocko Willink?

  The norm in that first town was you have different colored eyes.

• 1:20:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:59Jocko Willink?

  The norm in the second town is you have the same colored eyes.

• 1:21:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:02Jocko Willink?

  That's the norm.

• 1:21:03Speaker 01

  Or the very, that's very specific color eyes.

• 1:21:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's what I'm saying. When you make a group of people and they all have something, and seventy percent of them have some specific thing.

• 1:21:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:15Jocko Willink?

  That thing is normal.

• 1:21:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, normal. So, okay, so what are you saying? Are you thinking or saying or whatever that you feel like nowadays normal is kind of looked at as bad?

• 1:21:25Jocko Willink?

  Yes. If you're, if you're not normal, then that means you're different and different is bad.

• 1:21:33Speaker 01

  It's bad in that way. Yeah. It always say, and obviously we're different, so we go through different things, but it lands on me that it really like hundred percent depends on what the context is. So if, if it's like, oh my gosh, you, uh, like someone, okay, so I saw in the news, this girl, um, they said her name, I forget, but anyway, she's a freshman in high school. She's on the track, on the varsity track team, varsity softball team, gets a four point six GPA. Right? This little girl. And she's, I think she's like one of the top sprinters on the team or whatever. None of that is normal.

• 1:22:09Jocko Willink?

  Nope.

• 1:22:10Speaker 01

  But it's abnormal, we'll call it, in a good way. So if someone's like, wait a second, they read this girl's.

• 1:22:18Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 1:22:18Speaker 01

  Paper.

• 1:22:19Jocko Willink?

  So, so your point is, which I think this is your point, normal, people think that means good and not normal means bad, when I don't think that, I think, I think that there is such a thing as normal, though, right? There is such a thing, most girls freshman year are not making the varsity track team and are not making the varsity, uh, whatever. So, so that's what normal is. So if your daughter, when she gets to high school and she doesn't make varsity track, you can be like, that's okay, that's normal.

• 1:22:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:48Jocko Willink?

  And she shouldn't be like, so I'm just normal?

• 1:22:52Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:22:52Jocko Willink?

  Or if she does make it, and you're like, whoa, you made it, that's not normal, wait, I'm not normal? You see what I'm saying? People, people hype this word a little too much. And I think there's a benefit to knowing and understanding what normal is.

• 1:23:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:04Jocko Willink?

  And there's a benefit to sometimes saying, hey, I don't want to be normal, and there's a benefit to sometimes saying, I want to be normal.

• 1:23:11Speaker 01

  I understand.

• 1:23:12Jocko Willink?

  That's where I want to get to.

• 1:23:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, that makes sense.

• 1:23:15Jocko Willink?

  Right on. I, it's like a political party. There could be a political party, there should be a political party that's called normal. Like, I'm just a normal person. You got these extreme views over here, you other people got some extreme views over there, I'm not extreme on any of this shit. What's my political party? Normal.

• 1:23:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:34Jocko Willink?

  So I'm just a normal person. And actually, because I'm American, I'm a normal American.

• 1:23:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:40Jocko Willink?

  We could probably get with 80% accuracy, what a normal American thinks politically.

• 1:23:45Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:23:46Jocko Willink?

  And then there'd be 20% of fringe elements yelling and screaming and going crazy. And the way we have it right now, there's no normal. There's only one, there's only either Democrat or Republican. And there's a, there's an overlap for sure that they, that they could find a common ground on, but because of the areas that don't overlap, they just hate each other.

• 1:24:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's essentially this, the.

• 1:24:11Jocko Willink?

  I'm gonna make a political party called Normal. But see, people would be so pissed at that.

• 1:24:16Speaker 01

  Well.

• 1:24:16Jocko Willink?

  Because anyone that then that is not normal would be mad at you for saying that you're normal and they're not.

• 1:24:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, do you ever think, and this is what I think, and I could be wrong, because I know about maybe 10 people to that degree. So I think on the internet.

• 1:24:35Speaker 01

  Anything that makes the news, yeah, I think in everyday life, I think of course there's two parties. Of course, there's some overlap, but I think even within the two parties. They have different philosophies, different approaches to how the country should be or run or you know, all this stuff. But there, I think they're pretty normal, even by by normal.

• 1:24:55Jocko Willink?

  Most people are normal.

• 1:24:57Speaker 01

  I think, I think so.

• 1:24:57Jocko Willink?

  When I travel around this country and I, and I travel around this country and I meet people from all over this country. From the blue states, from the red states, from the, from the, you know, most liberal areas to the most conservative areas. I meet them all. Most of those people from those extreme places are normal.

• 1:25:15Speaker 01

  Same exact, same here, man. Like, and I don't go to all.

• 1:25:18Jocko Willink?

  But there's no political party for them to join. They can't vote normal. Like if normal doesn't get a vote.

• 1:25:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. Isn't that like the nature of a party nowadays, anyway?

• 1:25:29Jocko Willink?

  Nowadays.

• 1:25:30Speaker 01

  In general, where it's like, hey, if you're now you just join the, because everyone's so different in all kinds of different ways. There's gonna be, you know, five or six issues that are like, what do you feel? But I feel it's this. And then there's levels within the issues and it's all gonna fall within like. A realm of like, oh, I see why you're, you think that. I see why you think that. But if you don't know the person. And you, and you're only listening to the extreme people on the internet who's yelling the loudest, all this stuff or whatever. Yeah, it'll seem like that, but I think in real life, just like I said, in real life, you, you, you might have a. Politically charged person, but that'll probably even be normal.

• 1:26:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, they're more normal than they think. I mean, they might be not normal on one little. Uh, political issue, but most of them, they're pretty normal.

• 1:26:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:12Jocko Willink?

  So, but they have no one to vote for.

• 1:26:14Speaker 01

  It's very hard.

• 1:26:15Jocko Willink?

  You can't vote for someone. There's no normal person to vote for. If I was in a political party, I'd be in the normal one. I'd be like, yep, I'm normal. I'm just average. Like I'm an average person.

• 1:26:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:25Jocko Willink?

  Hey, should we have no taxes? No, you gotta pay taxes to pay for infrastructure. Should we have extremely high taxes? No, I just want normal taxes.

• 1:26:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, normal taxes.

• 1:26:34Jocko Willink?

  You know, that's how you, hey, should we dump all of our money into defense? No, but we need to have a good defense. Okay, cool. What, how much should we put in defense? Normal amount.

• 1:26:44Jocko Willink?

  You know what I'm saying? Like, these people are crazy. They're not normal. It's not normal. There's no, there's no one for a normal American to vote for. And guess what? When someone is acting normal, they get called abnormal by the extremes on both sides. It's crazy. That's what normally happens. All right, next. The enlightened person acts with moderation. Boom. That's what they're telling you to act normal, act with moderation, avoid anger, develop confidence. Sacrifice brings good fortune, freedom from error. Again, beautiful advice for any human in any situation.

• 1:27:27Jocko Willink?

  Act with moderation, avoid anger, develop confidence. If you sacrifice, you're going to get fortune. There you go. Great advice. Next, an enlightened person sees the good action of his fellows. Imitate them and correct their mistakes to make progress toward a goal. Okay, you see someone doing good, you should do that thing too. You know, correcting their mistakes. If you're doing that for yourself, so if I'm watching Echo and I see how his life is going, and I can imitate those good things, and I can correct whatever mistakes you're making, I can learn from it. That's all they're saying. Great advice. Imitate people that are doing good, and if they're doing something that's messed up, correct it when you do it yourself. Next, do not use force, but rely on fair judges.

• 1:28:12Jocko Willink?

  Know your goal, tell your supporters. The idea of, look, if I have to impose and force you to do this, there's something wrong. There's something wrong. If I have to force you to do this, there is something wrong. So don't let that happen. Did you see that PBS clip? They had Dr. Fauci going through Baltimore, I think it was Baltimore. Anyways, and they're trying to convince people, did you see this viral video clip? And this guy's like, hey, if this vaccine was good, you wouldn't be trying to force me to do this right now. You wouldn't be trying to pay me to do this thing. I would just want to do it. He, the guy's like, there's something suspect about that. And Fauci's trying to, you know, trying to, he tries for a little bit to convince him, and then he just moves on.

• 1:28:57Jocko Willink?

  He just gets met with full resistance. And he can't, here's the interesting thing.

• 1:29:05Jocko Willink?

  You know, I've been talking a lot about this explanation effort meter, which is how if it's really hard for me to explain something to you, there's they might not be such a great idea. So, listen, if I'm trying to get you to do something, and I can't and you're presenting argues to me, arguments to me, and I can't overcome them, maybe my idea is wrong. Maybe my idea is wrong.

• 1:29:32Jocko Willink?

  So rethink it. And you can, you can see when this happens.

• 1:29:38Jocko Willink?

  And you see it on that video. Cause you got Fauci's trying to convince us, trying to explain to him. And the person's like, well, doesn't this not actually prevent you from getting the disease? And he's like, well, it kinda does. Well, kinda? You know, it's like, this is one of these things. So be, be careful for yourself. When it's really hard for you to explain something, some idea, some plan, if I'm like, okay, Echo, here's what we're gonna do. And you ask me a question and I have a hard time answering, or I can't answer it, and you ask me another question, I can't answer it, and you ask me another question. I'm like, hey, Echo, I wanna sell these widgets. You know, and I'm like, well. And you say, well, how much do they cost to make? And I'm like, well, it's not important about the cost.

• 1:30:16Jocko Willink?

  And you're like, well, it kind of is, because if you make a good, you know, price point on them, and then we can't sell them to anybody, and no one will buy them, then we make something we can't sell. Don't you think that's wrong? And I'm like, no, no, but they're really cool.

• 1:30:28Jocko Willink?

  Like, be careful when your explanation effort meter is in the red. It shouldn't be that hard to explain things. This is what happens with public transportation.

• 1:30:40Jocko Willink?

  Like in California, the public transportation sucks. It's not good. They can try and get you to use it. But it's not good. So as much as they try and convince you, it does not affect it because it's not good. Whereas in London, it's easier to get into town if you take the tube. In New York City, it's easier to get around because, because the subway, because there's no traffic on the subway. So if something is good, you just voluntarily do it.

• 1:31:08Jocko Willink?

  That's the way things are supposed to be. That's where a new methodology should happen. Oh, this, this way that I'm trying to get you to do something is better. Let me show it to you. Now, listen, if I'm trying to get you to use a new process in our company, there might be a time where you're less efficient at this new process. Like, hey, you've been using some video editor. And I say, hey, Echo, there's a new video editor out. And it's way better. And you look at the, uh, the components of it and you say, oh yeah, that is better. So now you, you adopt it for a little while, you're going to be worse. Yeah. Cause you haven't developed the skills yet. Over time, you know, you're going to get better. That can happen in any organization. You start doing something new, people, efficiency is going to go down.

• 1:31:51Jocko Willink?

  But if efficiency doesn't get back up, there's something wrong with me. If I can't show you this new video editor where you're like, oh yeah, that's a really easier way to do that. And oh yeah, that's much more effective. And then you go, oh, give it to me. I want to do it. But if I'm like, hey, no, this, here, all you have to do is click these 47 buttons and you can copy the video thing. And you're like, well, I can do with one click on the other thing. Yeah, but you know that. See, I'm trying to explain something. It's real hard. Yeah. So just be careful. Pay attention to your explanation effort meter. A ruler issues commands that become well-known. Do not create a relationship with powerful persons or ideas. Exert discipline. It's always good to exert discipline. I was kind of wondering about the, do not create a relationship with powerful persons

• 1:32:36Jocko Willink?

  or ideas. And I think what I took away from that is don't be married to your ideas. Right? Don't just be like, no, this is my idea. Don't fall in love with your own plan. And be careful about when your boss has a plan. You know, you don't want to be a yes man. Good advice. Unite with others, make sacrifices and act with correct persistence to achieve a goal. Boom.

• 1:33:03Jocko Willink?

  Act with sincerity, avoid suspicion, and join with a wise leader.

• 1:33:08Jocko Willink?

  Wisdom or common sense, you be the judge, I think it's both.

• 1:33:12Jocko Willink?

  Gradual change nourished by the receptive earth produces a path to virtue. The enlightened person persists in small matters to gain a fortune.

• 1:33:23Jocko Willink?

  Yep, little steps, that's what we're doing, we're doing little steps. The enlightened person gains progress through courage. Adversity needs risks to achieve fortune. Speaking alone is ineffective, is ineffective, but those are great. The enlightened person gains progress through courage. You gotta take some risks to achieve fortune, good advice.

• 1:33:45Jocko Willink?

  Truth is never exhausted, yet never the same. The enlightened person gains insight into truth and assists others to achieve it. If the truth is not heeded, bad fortune follows.

• 1:34:00Jocko Willink?

  What I like about that is, I like the idea of assisting other people to achieve truth as opposed to ramming truth down their throat or punching them in the face with the, with the truth, because that doesn't, doesn't help, doesn't work. If that worked, then you could go on Twitter and you could change people's minds by presenting the facts.

• 1:34:25Jocko Willink?

  The enlightened person appreciates past experience and present opportunity, confidence and progress is, confidence and progress only after change is past.

• 1:34:37Jocko Willink?

  Appreciate past experience and present opportunity, yep, I'm happy where I've been. Hey, be thankful that you went through some struggle and look for opportunities right now. The wise person aligns himself with established order, it's going back to it. Hey, be normal, just be normal, it's a good place to start. It's a good place to start. The enlightened person seeks to improve himself, improve himself and take advantage of the unpredictable, great advice. Oh, there's a lot of mayhem going on, cool, take advantage of it. The enlightened person turns his back upon the larger situation and loses self-awareness.

• 1:35:12Jocko Willink?

  If you, this is the opposite of some of these things that talk about the small goal, this is saying if you turn your back on the larger situation, you're gonna lose self-awareness, you're gonna, it's not gonna go good. You have to pay attention to the larger situation, the strategic vision.

• 1:35:28Jocko Willink?

  The enlightened person improves life through good conduct and correct persistence. Boom. So it's, yes, we want you to follow these things. Intelligence combined with activity. This is the zenith of achievement. The enlightened person trusts his own judgment and makes progress. Do not fear decline, but shine like the sun. There's gonna be setbacks, everybody. It's okay, shine like the sun.

• 1:35:56Jocko Willink?

  The wise person is clear minded and not detained by disputes. Isn't it nice to just move on? Some little issue, some little spat, maybe it's even a big issue. Maybe it's a big disagreement. Cool, move on.

• 1:36:12Jocko Willink?

  The enlightened person acts gradually towards small goals. Consistent theme in here.

• 1:36:19Jocko Willink?

  The wise person exchanges ideas with others to find cooperation. Open your mind. Open your mind.

• 1:36:28Jocko Willink?

  Solid.

• 1:36:31Jocko Willink?

  Rulers meet with their subordinates. Great leadership advice. Advantage and cooperation, correct persistence and the company of fellows. Yep, join a team and hang out with your team. Meet with your subordinates.

• 1:36:46Jocko Willink?

  The wise person develops sound restraints and decides proper conduct. Extreme limitation, though, is no virtue. So this is getting discipline equals freedom and dichotomy into one little sentence. Right? Develop sound restraints and you'll figure out what, what direction to go into. You'll, you'll, you'll know the proper conduct when you have the right restraints. When you have discipline, it's gonna point you in the right direction. But extreme limitation, if you go overboard with something, it's not gonna be good. It's no virtue.

• 1:37:24Jocko Willink?

  From a distance, the wise person gains understanding. Oh, detach, everybody. From a distance, the wise person gains understanding. Yes, please detach, take a step back.

• 1:37:37Jocko Willink?

  Get some altitude, get some perspective.

• 1:37:42Jocko Willink?

  Moderate disputes and must avoid rigidity. Don't be stuck in your ways. Open your mind, free your mind. As the mountain, as occasionally I'm reading the thunder above, mountain below. Attention to detail, as the mountain remains tranquil in activity. So the wise person conducts himself with dignity and control. Don't be an emotional idiot. Be remorseful in losses and frugal in expenses. When birds fly too high, none hear their song.

• 1:38:18Speaker 01

  Stay grounded. You know what I'm saying? Is that what they mean by the expression down to earth? You know, down to earth, person's down to earth. You know, I never, I never knew what that meant down to earth. I thought, I thought it meant like, um, he's real, uh, like, uh, you know, like in touch with reality, kind of a thing.

• 1:38:38Jocko Willink?

  I think well, that is, that is a pretty good, it's close.

• 1:38:41Speaker 01

  Like humble, right? Humble, they're not, they're not trying to, yeah.

• 1:38:44Jocko Willink?

  It's definitely humble, but you could be, let's say I was like, hey Echo, uh, you, you want to go to Vegas with me? And you're like, yeah, I know it's like, okay, I'm, I'm flying up there on my jet tomorrow. So just meet me up there when you can with your jet. You know what I mean? It would be like, I was not down to earth.

• 1:39:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. So that's what I thought it, well, then again, I don't know, maybe right now, I don't know really what it means, or maybe it's both. I don't know. I, I thought down to earth was like someone who's really easy to understand and relate with. But then what I thought I understood later currently is that down earth means like humble in touch with like, basically a king in his tower is, uh, um, gonna be talking about king stuff. Meanwhile, everyone else is talking about common or stuff and.

• 1:39:28Jocko Willink?

  So you're, both things that you said are correct. Down to earth means like, oh, easy to understand, humble, not talking about like, well, you know, the thing is when you get a private jet, you gotta really focus, you know what I mean? Like that's just, that's not very down to earth. You know? So down to earth, yes, it's humble. It's also like relatable, right?

• 1:39:49Speaker 01

  So it's both then?

• 1:39:50Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's both.

• 1:39:51Speaker 01

  It's like humble in a very specific, relatable way, easy to get along with, kind of a deal.

• 1:39:56Jocko Willink?

  Totally. That's down to earth. It's a very positive thing. All right, we've got two more of these hexagrams to cover.

• 1:40:03Jocko Willink?

  The enlightened person defends against forthcoming adversity.

• 1:40:07Speaker 01

  Great, great idea.

• 1:40:09Jocko Willink?

  Mike Glover approves.

• 1:40:12Jocko Willink?

  Progress only in small matters, confusion is imminent.

• 1:40:15Speaker 01

  Okay, so there's gonna be some confusion out there.

• 1:40:18Jocko Willink?

  And last one, the wise person attends his position and progress carefully.

• 1:40:26Jocko Willink?

  Progress with great vigilance.

• 1:40:28Speaker 01

  Yep, pay attention.

• 1:40:30Jocko Willink?

  There you go.

• 1:40:32Jocko Willink?

  You can see that a lot of these things are common sense, but here's the thing. If these things are such common sense, why are we not doing these things? Right? And it's interesting that psychologically, even if we flip a coin and it tells us to do the right thing, that kind of pushes us in the right direction to take action, right? To, to trust, like all these things, like that little flip of the coin. Or in this case, the drawing of the Yarrow sticks or the, the drawing of these

• 1:41:05Jocko Willink?

  this divination form will push you in the right direction. My advice would be, you know, don't wait for the flip of a coin, just do the right things. And, and, and you actually know what they are. It's common sense, but it's common sense versus ego. It's common sense versus laziness. It's common sense versus habit.

• 1:41:25Jocko Willink?

  Don't wait for the flip of a coin. These are things that you actually know.

• 1:41:32Jocko Willink?

  So just do them.

• 1:41:35Speaker 01

  I know why we don't do them.

• 1:41:36Jocko Willink?

  Laziness, ego, habit, what?

• 1:41:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, yeah, these are all like within the, you know, in the spirit of Jaco simplifying things or whatever. We're distracted from it. That's why so, and there's a bunch of things that can distract you for sure, but the main ones are entertainment or your mood, right? Like how you feel. So ego, I guess is not mood, but like how you feel. So working out, for example.

• 1:42:01Speaker 01

  Everyone, if you're on the internet, or let's say if you're in America, pretty much everyone knows that working out is better for you than not working out. Everyone knows that factually, then why doesn't everyone work out? Like, everyone?

• 1:42:13Jocko Willink?

  Lazy.

• 1:42:14Speaker 01

  I'd say-

• 1:42:14Jocko Willink?

  Lack of discipline.

• 1:42:15Speaker 01

  I'm sure laziness is in there for sure, but, but the-

• 1:42:19Jocko Willink?

  Think about it, you're actually gonna be a better human being, you're gonna live longer, you're gonna be healthier.

• 1:42:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:23Jocko Willink?

  Everything in your world's gonna be better, you don't do it, there's a lack of discipline, laziness, it's a horrible thing.

• 1:42:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, and-

• 1:42:30Jocko Willink?

  Hey, occasionally, there's someone out there that like, doesn't have time. They got three kids, they're a single mom, they're working two and a half jobs, like, I get it, they're not working out, I get it.

• 1:42:38Speaker 01

  Oh, I, I get all reasons why people, I get why that's the case, but here's the thing, I'm just saying, what keeps someone from making the decision to not work out versus to work out? Cause we all know now, a workout can be 10 minutes versus zero minutes. It can even be five minutes versus zero minutes. Like, we know, like, do burpees as many as you can for five minutes.

• 1:43:01Jocko Willink?

  Yep, that's, that's a workout.

• 1:43:03Speaker 01

  A workout, and it's gonna depend, so we all know this, right? So, but what is it that makes us make the decision, the actual conscious decision down on the street level, to be like, I'm not gonna do that right now? Or to not even think about it?

• 1:43:16Jocko Willink?

  You seem to know. What's your answer?

• 1:43:17Speaker 01

  Being distracted, you're distracted by something, whether it be your, your feeling, your mood, your, uh, something else.

• 1:43:23Jocko Willink?

  Here's where I don't, here's where I kinda don't agree with you, at least on some level. There's times where you look distraction would mean, oh man, I forgot to work out. Like, I was watching Instagram. Oh, I was, fell into like, nine YouTube movies, and now I didn't work out. That can happen, allegedly, right? It can happen, you can let the window close, but let's face it, when you're letting the window close, and if you're not, don't remember what I'm talking about, we used to talk about the jujitsu window is closing, like, hey, you know class is at 4:30, and you're trying to wrap something up, and if you don't get it done by four, you know, by 3:35, you're gonna be late, and then you just kinda let that window close, and you're not training.

• 1:44:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:05Jocko Willink?

  So, when you let the window close, for sure, but I don't think that's distraction, distraction would mean I forgot about it, I don't think that happens.

• 1:44:12Speaker 01

  Um, and you are correct, but I'm talking about on a deeper level. So, I'm saying, for real, on a conscious decision-making level down on the streets.

• 1:44:25Speaker 01

  Your mood will distract you from the idea that knowing the right thing to do is to work out. But what would make you think, hey, right now, what's driving my decision is causing me to do the wrong thing? Literally the wrong thing. And it's your mood. So to accommodate this mood is distracting me from a better decision.

• 1:44:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:46Speaker 01

  It's like, it's like.

• 1:44:47Jocko Willink?

  If you want to use that form of distraction.

• 1:44:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:50Jocko Willink?

  Then that, then I understand what you're saying.

• 1:44:51Speaker 01

  I do want to use that.

• 1:44:52Jocko Willink?

  Okay, you're allowed to use it. You can use it. Because let's face it. There's no, there's maybe you, once in a while, you, you get distracted. Where you go, oh dang, it's already freaking six forty-five in the morning. And I had to jump on for an email and then I started watching a YouTube video and then I went down the rabbit hole and I got literally distracted where I didn't. But I, I actually can tell you this, I have never in my life gotten distracted and missed a workout.

• 1:45:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, so.

• 1:45:23Jocko Willink?

  I might have chosen and said like, bro, that's, you know, it's leg day and I'm going to watch more YouTube videos right now. I'm going to put this thing off.

• 1:45:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, I get it.

• 1:45:31Jocko Willink?

  But it didn't happen in a subconscious, distraction to me is a subconscious thing where it's like, oh, I got distracted.

• 1:45:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:45:37Jocko Willink?

  Oh, I was driving and texting. That's distracted. I hit a freaking tree.

• 1:45:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, I get it. And that's, that's true.

• 1:45:46Jocko Willink?

  I didn't, I didn't, wasn't texting and now I missed a workout.

• 1:45:51Jocko Willink?

  That didn't happen, bro.

• 1:45:53Speaker 01

  I, I get it. And I am not saying that you're wrong, but in the spirit of understanding, not I'm right and you're not right, or I'm more right than you. That's not the spirit. The spirit is in the spirit of understanding. So distraction is more.

• 1:46:08Speaker 01

  It's on the level.

• 1:46:09Jocko Willink?

  Go with it. All right. What made sense is when you said you can allow yourself to be, you can choose to be distracted instead of choosing to do what you should be doing.

• 1:46:18Speaker 01

  But I think on some kind of other mental level, it's more of the idea, and think of it as an concept, right? The idea of keeping your eyes on the prize, right? You know, that idea?

• 1:46:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:27Speaker 01

  So keeping the eyes on the prize, right? Okay, so the prize is. The benefits of working out, right? And even if you're not a fitness person, in fact, you've never worked out in your life, you're gonna know at least one benefit of working out, right? You're gonna know it's better to do it than to not do it. People are gonna know that stuff. So let's say that's the prize, the benefits, right? If you keep your, if you take your eyes off that prize and look at another prize, your eyes kind of got distracted from the prize. See what I'm saying? So on that level is what I mean like by distracted or whatever.

• 1:46:58Jocko Willink?

  That's why I said in that form, you can use it. And I understand what you're saying and you're, you're correct. In that kind of like real minor kind of way, you're right.

• 1:47:05Speaker 01

  So, hey, I'll take it. I'll take it, Jocko, thank you. So, let's not get distracted. Let's try not, bro, it's hard. It's hard. Cause even in the real, I should say, direct way, it's easy to get distracted. And it's on purpose, too.

• 1:47:20Jocko Willink?

  That's what I, that's, that's, see, that's what I think. You, you choose to get distracted. Like you can easily choose to sit down and watch some YouTube videos or flip through your Instagram, right? And then, and then you add on top of that fact that the dopamine is getting in you. And it's just dopamine, dopamine. And then now you're just like more dopamine, more dopamine, no dopamine, dopamine, no any.

• 1:47:41Speaker 01

  You do this, right? Or I don't know, maybe you don't. I'm pretty sure you said you did this. So you know, like if, for example, you're gonna do some hard workout thing? And you're like, ah, you don't want to, I don't know, some 20 rep squatter. I don't know, some hard workout thing. And you're like looking around.

• 1:47:56Jocko Willink?

  Stretching another round, have to do a warm up on the bike.

• 1:47:59Speaker 01

  Let me, oh, wait, wait, let me check that email on my phone real quick.

• 1:48:02Jocko Willink?

  This email, I'm hoping that there's a freaking tragedy at one of my companies that I gotta go deal with. So I don't have to do your 20 rep squat or squat workout.

• 1:48:09Speaker 01

  Bro, I'll find little things that like need to be done. You know, like I'll be like, oh, man, I'm, you know, there's like this weird routine before a workout. If I'm really not feeling like it, like, so I'll drink a water, right? So while I'm drinking water, I'm like, oh, wait, oh, shoot, that little corner needs to be cleaned real quick. You know, so, and it kind of like, it's like a form of distract, like purposeful distraction and procrastination mixed together.

• 1:48:30Jocko Willink?

  Totally. Well, the each thing says, don't procrastinate.

• 1:48:35Speaker 01

  So just take action.

• 1:48:36Jocko Willink?

  Good advice. All right, well, we want to stay on the path. We don't want to get distracted. Let's make sure we're fueling the path correctly. Get yourself some Jaco Fuel, jacofuel.com. Get yourself some of these energy drinks, which are for God's sake. I hear there's like, uh, it looks like the Nobel Prize is going to be awarded to the team of Jaco Fuel for making these. They weren't a hundred percent sure until they made the ready to drink milk and now it's just they they realize that it's the recognition is deserved. So get yourself some Jocko Fuel energy drinks that have no downside. No downside. It's not like, well, I need energy right now. I'm going to, I'm going to sacrifice future energy for current energy. That's what the other guys do.

• 1:49:19Jocko Willink?

  They sacrifice future energy for current energy. We will give you current energy and you'll still have the future energy. No crash.

• 1:49:27Jocko Willink?

  Neutropics, 95 milligrams of caffeine, sweetened with monk fruit. Tastes freaking delicious. There you go. Get some of that. Get yourself some milk. Get on the milk train. Oh, yeah. That RTD ones just keeps paying dividends. See what I'm saying? You know, you want to talk about getting distracted. When it comes to like, for me, the, the effort meter for food prep. I have a low, I have a high bar for what I'm going to put into it, right? Like you, you want to talk to Leif Babin and you like, hey, you want to eat dinner? He's like, yeah, man, I'll, he's like, hell, you know, fire up the grill at two o'clock. I'll start marinating food tonight. He's going to be on that grill for two hours. Like he's putting effort into it. I'm not doing that. It's not me. It's not my thing. It's not my, John Dudley?

• 1:50:11Jocko Willink?

  Dude, this, this dude will have a plan, like three, four, five days in advance. We, you know, he's turning on the Traeger at, you know, at, at, at nine o'clock in the morning, he's turning on the Traeger. He's putting the meat, it takes six hours to cook. You know what I'm saying? This, none of this, I'm not doing any of this. I'm opening up tin chicken and putting mayonnaise in it. It took me 30 seconds to, to make my meal. So I have a very high bar as far as the effort that I'm going to put into, to prep food. The RTD milk is a complete game changer. It's the, it's the healthiest thing you can just rock and roll in that right now. And just get stronger while having dessert.

• 1:50:53Jocko Willink?

  Uh, jockofuel.com. Also you can go to Wawa, go to Vitamin Shop, go to the Military Commerce in Hanaford, Dash Stores in Maryland, Wake Fern. Shoprite, HEB and Tejas, Meyer, those are the big retailers. Hey, thanks for going into HEB. Thanks for going into Meyer. We're dominating in there. Dominating in the Vitamin Shoppe as well. So I don't think the results are out yet, but we're either the number one brand or the number two brand in Vitamin Shoppe, which is awesome. Some people voted for that. It was a voting situation. Brand v. Brand.

• 1:51:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. So it's why, and I saw that too. And so I went on there and

• 1:51:32Jocko Willink?

  Did you vote?

• 1:51:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. Of course. I have a very strong opinion. And actually, when I looked at it, I was like, oh yeah, I'm voting. And maybe I overthought this whole thing. Or maybe I didn't. Maybe I put the perfect amount of thought into it. So I'm looking right. And it's like, um, the, it was ready to drink, right? RTD was like, and the go was in that. So I'm like, cool. And I'm, you know, I'm checking my bias, you know, because I'm a responsible human being in my mind. So I, I scroll and I see who, who else is here though, you know, like what else? I'm looking at this other one. I was like, I would never vote for any of these things. I would only vote for this one, the healthy one, the good one.

• 1:52:09Jocko Willink?

  We're winning.

• 1:52:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I'm like, all right. So it's, yeah, I think it's justified is what I'm saying. So it's not one of those things where it's kind of like, hey, like it sucks, but hey, I like you, Jaco. But it's like, it's, it's factually better than all this other stuff. So good. Good on you.

• 1:52:23Jocko Willink?

  JacoFuel.com. Go get it. Um, OriginUSA.com. Also, you're gonna need some jiu jitsu in your life, right? Because jiu jitsu is one of that magic eight ball solutions to problems is train jiu jitsu. We encourage it. We also make jeans. We make hunt gear. And we make it all in America, which is a big deal. It's a big deal. Because there is ecological disasters going on in the world. And there's slavery, modern day slavery. That's happening right now in a sweatshop in China. And you can go support that. You can go support enslaving another human being. Or you can go to

• 1:53:06Jocko Willink?

  OriginUSA.com and you can get some American made, the highest of quality.

• 1:53:13Jocko Willink?

  Gear. For your entire life, T-shirts, sweatshirts, boots, hoodies, jujitsu gis. Look, can you wear your gi to work? You can, right? To me, it's sort of like wearing a, you know, being a Buddhist monk at a university and dressing like that. I don't, I don't think you should. I'm not going to hold it against you. It's probably the one kind of outside the box uniform that if I saw you wearing, I'd be like, you know what? We'll go with it, right? You want to wear that gi? Probably wear a black gi, be less obvious than a, than a white gi. Yeah. You know, as far as going to work in, depending on where you work. Yeah. I guess if you worked in a hospital, you could wear the white gi and that might look pretty dope. But matched. In a, in some kind of a financial industry, I'd probably wear just a black gi. You know, just a little bit more subdued.

• 1:53:59Jocko Willink?

  You know what I mean? Yeah, subdued, alright. You're going into a meeting, you know, you don't want to be standing out with a bright white gi. No. Only with that black gi. Yeah, yeah. You wear rash guard underneath, you know? Yeah. That's my. Way more normal. If you wear your gi to work, tag me in a picture. I want to see it. I want to see what, you know, I just want to see kind of maybe in a little video. Jujitsu instructor as a job does not count. Jujitsu instructor as a job does not count. You've got to have a, some kind of normal job. Yeah. Oh. Normal. Let's face it, jujitsu instructor, is that a normal job? Nope. Nope, there's no, there's no box. Right. Like when you go to a survey, it doesn't say jujitsu instructor. There's no box that says, you know, it says, are you in service industry? Are you in the financial industry?

• 1:54:43Jocko Willink?

  Then there's no box on there that says, are you in the jujitsu instructor industry? It's not normal, it's not a normal job. Yeah, they would have to kind of, in a way, kind of shoehorn it into another industry like, um. Fitness. Sport, yeah, even fitness, that doesn't tag, like sports maybe, but not everyone competes. So it's like. You're just a jujitsu instructor. It's not normal. We support you though. We support. Get yourself some, get yourself a, an Origin USA gi.

• 1:55:09Speaker 01

  Best skis in the world, by the way, or do you say dot com? Also Jaco's a store. It's called Jaco's Store. This is where, hey, man, on this path, it's hard. It's hard, but there's other people. There's other people on the path with you. Anyway, if you want to represent, it's where you can get your shirts and hats and hoodies and some, a lot of good stuff on there. So, yeah, check that out.

• 1:55:27Jocko Willink?

  That's what we've been hearing.

• 1:55:28Speaker 01

  Yes. The word on the street, that's the reports from the, from the field, as it were.

• 1:55:33Jocko Willink?

  Subscribe to the podcast, subscribe to Jaco Underground, subscribe to the YouTube channels, get psychological warfare. Go to flipsidecanvas.com, get some cool stuff to hang on your wall from Dakota Meyer. Get one of the books that I've written or published. Go to extremeownership.com and learn how to lead. This is not something you learn in a day. It's something you got to follow up with. That's why we made that online training academy. Go check that out. And that is of course through Echelon Front, which is our leadership consultancy. Just got back from Gettysburg, the hallowed ground to Gettysburg. The thing was sold out. That's the thing you got to watch out for. The stuff that we do is sold out. And so if you want to come to one of our live events, you have to register early in order to go.

• 1:56:15Jocko Willink?

  So go to, go to echelonfront.com, check out our live events or check out if you need leadership consultant, consulting, consulting in your team.

• 1:56:28Jocko Willink?

  You got to go there as well and we will take care of you. And if you want to help service members, active and retired, you want to help their families, you want to help Gold Star families, check out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee. She's got a charity organization that is doing an incredible job helping our warriors and their families. If you want to donate or you want to get involved, go to AmericasMightyWarriors.org. And also don't forget about Micah Fink,

• 1:56:52Jocko Willink?

  who apparently right now is skinning a mountain lion with his bare hands that he killed with a, with a tree branch while he was horseback. And if you and he's doing, he's showing, he's showing veterans and first responders. I think he's got first responders in there now too. He's showing them how to find themselves by losing themselves out in the wilderness. Horses and heroes, sorry, heroes and horses.org. Go check that out. If you want to connect with us, Echo Charles, at Echo Charles, Jocko Willink, at Jocko Willink. But be careful because it's a distraction platform. It's meant to take your eyes off the prize. Don't let that agle rhythm grab a hold of you.

• 1:57:34Jocko Willink?

  And thanks to our military men and women in uniform that are out there around the world, sacrificing their freedom to protect ours. Thank you for what you do. And the same goes to our police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, border patrol, secret service, and all first responders. You all also make sacrifices every day to keep us and our families safe. And we thank you for what you do. And everyone else out there, speaking of what you do, you know what to do. You know what to do. You know what the ancient wisdom says. You know what the common sense thing is.

• 1:58:17Jocko Willink?

  And you don't need a coin toss or a palm reading or a tarot card to tell you what to do. You already know. And that is to get up and go get after it. And until next time, Zeko and Jaco out.