Jocko Underground: The More You Listen, The More You See.

The more you listen, the more you see. How to improve showing empathy. Can ego be a good thing? Improve leadership with others. When to avoid the indirect method. Ending a career attached to identity. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is the Jocko Underground Podcast, number 81.

• 0:06Jocko Willink?

  Echo Charles, sitting across from me. So about every month or so, something like that, I get someone at Echelon Front, I get a client, and we'll get this scenario that'll happen, and we kind of hinted about it on the last podcast that we did, the last Underground Podcast that we did. You know, you got the client Jim, who's the boss, and he's in charge of, you know, Fred, one of the employees. And what's interesting when you're National Enfront, you talk to everybody in the chain of command, you know, you talk to the C-suite, you talk to the mid-level managers, you talk to the frontline troopers, so you get input from everybody, and you kind of know what's going on.

• 0:47Jocko Willink?

  And you get it from a few different angles. So anyways, you have this bad relationship here between Jim and Fred, bad communication, you know, things were breaking down, this is kind of brewing over time. And so Jim, the boss, you know, he's gonna sort it out. And so he has, you know, he has a call with Fred, he tells me, you know, like, I'm gonna have a call with Fred.

• 1:11Jocko Willink?

  And he gets, you know, whatever, next day, calls me up, "Yeah, I had a great conversation with Fred." And, you know, I kind of, I kind of know Jim, and I'm like, you know, been talking to him, and so I kind of know what to expect a little bit. So I asked him a simple question. I just said, "Oh, great conversation?" He's like, "Yeah." And I go, "How much did you talk, Jim, and how much did Fred talk?"

• 1:40Jocko Willink?

  And it was silence. Because when I asked that question, he knew. He knew, Jim knew, that on that conversation with Fred, Jim had talked 90% of the time. I said, "How much?" You know, I said, "How much did you talk?" How much did he talk? And he was quiet, and he said, "I talked too much." And I said, "Well, how much did you talk? What percentage?"

• 2:05Jocko Willink?

  He said, "I probably talked 98% of the time." Which actually means, he talked 98% of the time.

• 2:12Jocko Willink?

  So, I've got news for you, that is not a quote "good" conversation, it's definitely not a great conversation. That's barely even a conversation. That's me just downloading. That's Jim just downloading on Fred. It's a one-way conversation and that is not communication. Because people forget that the most important part of communication is actually listening. It's not talking, it's listening.

• 2:38Jocko Willink?

  You ever hear that old school dating advice?

• 2:44Jocko Willink?

  Dating advice that says, oh, you know, you go out with a girl, ask them about themselves and let themselves talk. You ever hear that? And it kind of works, you know, even if you, even if you're just meeting a, someone from a business situation. You know, if you just ask them about themselves and let them talk, that's very positive. Usually ends up with a very positive, it gives them a positive feeling. As opposed to you go in there and you just run your mouth for an hour and a half during dinner. Not positive. It's not good. We're not doing that.

• 3:16Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 3:20Jocko Willink?

  What we want to do. Is when we have problems, we have drama. When we have issues with an employee, when we have problems, drama, or issues with a peer, when we have problems, drama, or issue with our boss. And we want to quote, have a conversation about it. Let me tell you what you do. You listen.

• 3:43Jocko Willink?

  You listen to what they're saying. By the way, this applies to children as well. It applies to your kids. When your kids are doing something that they shouldn't be doing. Or when they're behaving in a way that they shouldn't be behaving. You have to actually listen to why they're doing it. You have to ask them a question and listen. Look, does that apply to a five-year-old? Sometimes, look, sometimes five-year-olds do dumb things that you need to stop them from doing. But you get a kid that's 14 years old, you need to listen to what they're saying.

• 4:15Jocko Willink?

  You think you know everything. You think you do. You think you know everything. You think you know what's going through their mind. You don't.

• 4:23Jocko Willink?

  You have to listen. Your wife is mad.

• 4:27Jocko Willink?

  Listen.

• 4:30Jocko Willink?

  And I'm not saying go onto the, the, the, the warning that I gave on the last podcast. This doesn't mean like, what's wrong, what's wrong, what's wrong? No, that's not what I'm talking about. We're not, we're not turning listening into interrogation. That's not what we're doing. Your wife's mad? Listen to what's happening. Listen to what she's saying. Your husband's in a bad mood? Listen.

• 4:54Jocko Willink?

  The more that you listen, the more you understand. The more you listen, oddly enough, the more you see.

• 5:04Jocko Willink?

  The more you listen, the more you see. Write that down.

• 5:10Jocko Willink?

  The more you listen, the more you see.

• 5:14Jocko Willink?

  You cannot be detached when your mouth is moving.

• 5:20Jocko Willink?

  You can't

• 5:22Jocko Willink?

  think and absorb information when you are putting out information. At least not effectively, at least not efficiently.

• 5:30Jocko Willink?

  So that's what we're doing. We're listening. There you go.

• 5:39Jocko Willink?

  Let's get into some Q and A.

• 5:40Speaker 01

  That old school dating advice or whatever. Um, they, they did a, I think it's like, they did a study. It's funny. I always laugh when people say they did it. Who did, who did a study? Them, them, someone other than me that I read about, did a study. Um, that, so what had happened was in a nutshell, through the study that the guys, guy and guys and girls in this party scenario, right? And the guy, basically all the guy did was, and there's other techniques in this study, like mirroring and you know, some of that stuff. But all it was, was them asking questions about the other person and letting them talk. They didn't say the name of himself, nothing. They just asked questions like about the other person.

• 6:22Speaker 01

  So the other person, this other person never knew the name of the subject, never knew, um, any, anything about the subject. All they would do is get prompted to, to answer questions about themselves.

• 6:35Speaker 01

  And then there's, you know, there's like a ranking at the end of the thing where it's like, who was the most like, who did, who's the most memorable, likeable, less like, you know, all this stuff or whatever. And that guy who just did the, the asking about the other person, number one likeable thing. And then they say, okay, why'd you like him? Whatever he goes, oh, he just, I just felt like he really understood me and he was very easy to talk to, like all this stuff or whatever. And ranked number one across the board. Didn't even know his name.

• 6:58Jocko Willink?

  Big scam, right?

• 7:02Jocko Willink?

  But damn, like, that's just, that's just proof, you know, that, that study, and I actually think that, that study was conducted by the University of Bro Science.

• 7:12Jocko Willink?

  That is a Bro Science university. But yeah, it makes sense. It makes sense. You know, like, you let people talk, you listen to what they're saying. They're gonna be appreciative of that.

• 7:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:27Jocko Willink?

  As opposed to you freaking barking at them. Shut the hell up, man.

• 7:31Speaker 01

  You know what's funny? When you kind of detach, right? I learned that. When, when you're barking at someone, or actually not even barking, like, go back to the situation with Fred or whatever, the one you were saying, where he was like, oh, I had a great conversation with them or whatever. They're literally doing the exact same thing. They're just on the other end of it.

• 7:47Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 7:47Speaker 01

  So, see what I'm saying? So like-

• 7:48Jocko Willink?

  They feel like it was a great conversation.

• 7:50Speaker 01

  Exactly, right. You know, so Fred or Fred, whoever's the one who had the great conversation is the person talking about themselves the whole time. It's the same exact thing. She's, they're just falling for it on themselves, kind of thing, you know?

• 8:01Jocko Willink?

  The thing it doesn't show is like, the person that talked about themselves is not liked.

• 8:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:07Jocko Willink?

  So Jim, like Fred thinks it's a great conversation. Jim thinks it's a great conversation because he talked the whole time. Fred's more pissed than he was at the beginning of the conversation.

• 8:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. Ask him, Mike, well, he just wouldn't shut the hell up.

• 8:19Jocko Willink?

  Wouldn't shut up. Doesn't listen to me.

• 8:20Speaker 01

  Doesn't listen.

• 8:21Jocko Willink?

  Didn't respect me.

• 8:22Speaker 01

  Doesn't understand.

• 8:23Jocko Willink?

  So there you go.

• 8:24Speaker 01

  Man, just such a key component. Big deal. It's a big deal for sure.

• 8:29Jocko Willink?

  Listen up, people.

• 8:30Speaker 01

  Listen up. First question, how do you show empathy? It's obvious what it looks like, but how do you ingrain it into a relationship with, say, your wife? My wife struggles with high anxiety and shuts down when faced with adversity. I was raised under tough love and as I've become an adult, I have three elementary kids of my own. I completely prescribe that when needed as well as it just being part of my character. Just this morning, my wife walks into our house. I'm remodeling. No crew, just me for the last 14 months. And I can see the weight all over her through her tone of voice, her body language, her response, everything. So I ask her flat out, what's up? Why does it seem like there's a cloud of stress and anxiety over you?

• 9:10Speaker 01

  She starts explaining what's going on and I say, you gotta change your thinking and pull your mind out of this pit. She shuts down, walks out saying, thanks for doing literally nothing to help me. I need some empathy with her and potentially in general, but I don't know how to empathize with someone so negative. She, she asked me persistently what she needs to do and it's literally doing the opposite of the harmful negativity she was thinking about. To me, it's easy. To her, it's not. Bottom line empathy, how do you do it?

• 9:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, check. I mean, first of all, like, like, let's make sure that we're, that is a little excerpt of what we are doing on the Jocko Underground Podcast. So if you want to continue to listen, go to jacood underground.com and subscribe. And we're doing this to mitigate our reliance on external platforms. So we are not subject to their control and we are doing this so that we can support the Jocko Podcast, which will remain as is free for all, as long as we can keep it that way. But we are doing this so we don't have to be under the control of sponsors. And we're doing it so we can give you more control, more interaction, more direct connections, better communications with us.

• 10:24Jocko Willink?

  And to do that, we are, we're building a website right now where we'll be able to utilize to strengthen this legion of troopers that are in the game with us. So thank you. It's jacood underground.com. It costs $8.18 a month. And if you can't afford to support us, we can still support you. Just email assistance@jacood underground.com and we'll get you taken care of. Until then, we will see you mobilized underground.