372: Figure Out The Framework, The Rules, and The Objectives... Then Play THE GAME

The final episode of the "Life is a Game" series. The framework, the rules, the objectives. Answering more questions. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 372 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening Echo.

• 0:06Speaker 01

  Good evening.

• 0:06Jocko Willink?

  The fourth and final episode for now about the game. If you haven't listened to 369, 370, 371, go listen to those first. We're going to jump right into the remaining questions, feedback that we got off the first podcast that we did about this. So here we go. Talking about the game. Question comes from Corey. There's a couple of questions actually. Can someone be so far along in a game, career or relationship, for example, that it is not worth it to switch games in terms of return on investment? Love my career choice, but I've seen others who hate their job, but often stick it out to retirement.

• 0:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:53Jocko Willink?

  That does, that does happen. This is the sunk cost fallacy we talked about in one of the other of your podcasts. You, you've been doing that job for a long time, but here, and you've also got to remember that sometimes the sunk cost isn't a fallacy. Like sometimes you've put, you know, guys in the military, right? To a classic example, you're in the military, you've been in for eight years and you decide to get out. Okay. You know, you're getting out. You've invested some time. You've gained some skills. You're going to get out 10 years. You're like, okay. Still 10 years, you're, you're still pretty young. You're 28 years old. You, you can figure out another career. You haven't invested that

• 1:36Jocko Willink?

  much into it. And you've gotten some return on that investment already in terms of experience.

• 1:41Jocko Willink?

  Usually around 12 years is where people start saying, hmm, you put a lot in there. You put 12 years into this. You know your job well. So between 12, 13, 14 years, well, 13, between 12, 13 years, it definitely seems strange. There's something going on that you really have to think about the decision. 15 to 18 years is probably a bad move. Like if you've put 15 or 18 years into the military and now you're going to get out, you better have something awesome lined up. You better be in some terrible situation that you absolutely despise because you're giving up a lot. You're giving up the rest of your, you know, money for the rest of your life.

• 2:25Jocko Willink?

  And you've already worked, I mean, look, that's what makes it weird, right? If you've done a job for 15 years or 16 years, now you decide that you don't like it anymore?

• 2:34Jocko Willink?

  Bruh, that's why we gotta do these assessments, there's often and early, right?

• 2:38Speaker 01

  I see, yeah.

• 2:39Jocko Willink?

  Uh, and then you get people occasionally get out 18 years, 19 years and you're like, that's not it. We don't think that's a good move, cause you can suck it up for another year and get paid for the rest of your life. Even if you hate it for that last year, you're like, okay, cool. Start working on your exit strategy and you'll figure it out. Um, and the military is a distinct sort of example, because there is like that 20 year mark where you're gonna get your retirement. You're gonna get benefits after that. Uh, you know, all that being said, a lot of careers take a lot more than 20 years to get, you know, retirement out of it. So if you, if you absolutely hate your job, it's probably, you were thinking exit strategy. How can you set something up to move on?

• 3:23Jocko Willink?

  So yes, that, that can happen.

• 3:28Jocko Willink?

  Yes, can you be so far along in a game that it's not worth it to switch games? Yes, but it can happen where you still need to make a decision that you need to move on. So it's just a tough choice.

• 3:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's a payoff at the end, like a retirement scenario. That's different than sunk cost fallacy, like I said, cause sunk cost is kinda like, hey, Justin, it's like it's, it's driven mainly by the time, the investment in your head that you put into getting where you are.

• 3:59Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 4:00Speaker 01

  So it seems like, oh yeah, I, I put this much into it. If I just quit and do something else, all that time was for nothing, that's what it is. But if you have a, um, like in a retirement, like I said, or some light at the end of the tunnel, all I gotta do is stick it out for this much more. And then I get a very big benefit there, that's different because it's like, you're not, it's not driven by your past investment. It's driven by, okay, let me just like basically suck it up or, or try to handle or make the best of this until I get that one payoff.

• 4:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 4:26Speaker 01

  So, yeah, like in, yeah, that's weird, cause I know people, I know literally like friends of the family that are, that are in this conundrum. Cause anytime, you know, like, uh, police have this, military, um, teachers have this, like where they have a retirement waiting for them.

• 4:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the thing, the big difference between military and police, police is also a little bit, military is like 20 years. At twenty years, you're gonna get a retirement. So if you enlisted when you're eighteen, like I did, you're thirty-eight, bro. I mean, you're, but most or a lot of jobs are you have to work until you're maybe thirty years and also sometimes it's work till sixty-five. So if you gotta work until you, a lot of those jobs, you have to graduate from college. So you're twenty-two when you get the job. Now you work for thirty years in that job. You're fifty-two.

• 5:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:14Jocko Willink?

  The next career is not like jumping up and down at you, you know?

• 5:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:19Jocko Willink?

  People are looking at you like, well, do you really wanna do this? And how do, how much do we wanna invest in you? And you're fifty-two years old. How much longer are you gonna work for?

• 5:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:25Jocko Willink?

  And you are also like, hey, I've been working for thirty freaking years. Now I gotta go do some other. So that's why I think, and now, now this dynamic has changed a lot in recent years. I mean, people change jobs a lot more than they used to. You know, when, when I was younger, the friends of my parents, they all had the same freaking job. They, their entire like lives. They all got a job and then they stayed in that job. You know, whether it was working at a construction company, both my parents were schoolteachers. I were schoolteachers the whole time. Thirty years. My dad worked at a school for thirty years. You know what I mean? Like, that's it. That's his job. My mom worked at a school for twenty years, then she became a principal and, and a vice principal and all that.

• 6:06Speaker 01

  What grade did your dad teach? High school?

• 6:08Jocko Willink?

  High school.

• 6:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Uh, but like I'm thinking of the friends of my parents, they all basically had a job.

• 6:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:16Jocko Willink?

  One job. It's not like today where people are, oh, I, I worked this there for three years and there for two more years and I did eighteen months at this place. People move around a lot more. So there's probably less of this unless you happen to get into one of these jobs, like you said. But teachers are like that. You know, we're out here in California. Teachers, I think teachers gotta work for until they're sixty-five out here, maybe, or maybe thirty years. But it's, you know, you work for twenty years in a school. You look up, you're like, I have ten more years of this. If you start to not like it, and you've got ten more years.

• 6:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:52Jocko Willink?

  You're sort of like, huh.

• 6:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:53Jocko Willink?

  But you're also, like you said, there's a carrot at the end of it.

• 6:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:57Jocko Willink?

  Plus ten more years, that's ten more, you got ten more summers off, right?

• 7:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:01Jocko Willink?

  They like that job, cuz that's, the summers are off.

• 7:05Speaker 01

  Not all bad, yeah.

• 7:07Jocko Willink?

  But I do look at it, look, you get one shot, you get one trip through life. And if you're freaking totally miserable. Then you start to look around like maybe you've been teaching for 20 years and you really don't like it anymore. Okay, well, instead of just saying I quit, no, you start saying, well, what else could I do? What other options do I have? What kind of business could I start on the side during the summer? You know, maybe I start my crocheting business and I'm making,

• 7:34Jocko Willink?

  what are they like hot pads to hold the, hold the freaking dishes, right? Oven mitts? Oven mitts, yeah. You start making oven mitts and maybe you turn that into a business. Yeah. Cool. Then you can leave your job, but let's not do anything rash. You might have to play the game for a while and decide what you're gonna do. But we don't want to be on our deathbed thinking, that's what we don't want. We also don't want to be in the gutter, homeless, saying freaking Jaco said, fault chased my dream. You can chase you, look, if you have a dream like that, it's strong enough to that you can do it on the side too.

• 8:14Jocko Willink?

  The side hustle, right? The side hustle. The thing about the side hustle is the side hustle's not easy. That's what people think the side hustle, it sounds like something you're just doing on the side, but it's actually, if you're doing it right, it's taking as much time as your full-time job. It's just that you have to do it in addition to. Don't think the side hustle is something that you do on the side. It's something that you do in addition to with the same amount of effort in most cases. But you can turn the side hustle into something real if you put the effort into it. Not gonna be easy.

• 8:45Jocko Willink?

  All right. Um, question number two from Corey. You mentioned how we can exist in our own little worlds with titles and status, but when we step outside those worlds, we aren't held in such high regard or recognized for those roles anymore. Obviously, it can be a difficult transition to a different career or lifestyle and feel as if the work you previously put in may be invalidated due to lack of recognition. While in the military, did you have any idea of what possible career path you would have afterwards?

• 9:13Jocko Willink?

  Well, the answer is no, um, I didn't.

• 9:20Jocko Willink?

  Uh, I thought I would be teaching jujitsu. I thought I'd be surfing and hanging out with my family. And then opportunities opened up.

• 9:27Jocko Willink?

  I did my first like quote unquote leadership talk about six months before I retired. And, and it grew from there. Leadership talks to book, to podcasts, to products, to companies. It wasn't really pre-planned, but I, but I think, you know, I think one of the challenges that you can have here. Is when I got out. I didn't say to my, I didn't say to the world, I served 20 years. I was a leader.

• 9:58Jocko Willink?

  You should all respect what I have to say and you should listen to me and I don't have to pay my dues. And I deserve XYZ. I didn't say that. I was like, oh damn, I'm a civilian now.

• 10:10Jocko Willink?

  Leif and I always joke about, we did all kinds of leadership talks for nothing, for free. Go and talk, go travel somewhere. They might give you the, the travel pay. To go and talk to a company for four hours in the middle of nowhere. I talked to them about leadership. Do it for free. I wasn't like, that's below me. Look, I've been in the, I was in the SEAL teams. Oh, I was an officer in the SEAL teams. Therefore, I was in the military. You owe, I'm not doing that. No, it's like, be humble is basically what I'm getting at. Be humble. And, and if you, that, that part that makes it a different, is what he calls a difficult transition to a entirely different career.

• 10:50Jocko Willink?

  If you try and think that you're gonna deserve the respect, that's where you're gonna run into problems. It's like, it's not gonna be there. And, and look, the military, you actually do get like, in some cases, people do give you respect. Oh, you were in the military, you have discipline, you've been in leadership positions. A lot of times, that.

• 11:14Jocko Willink?

  That, that kind of nice greeting that you get isn't real. It's a little bit of lip service. And well, it's not just lip. Let me rephrase that. They look at it. They're like, oh, Echo, you're in the military. That's great. You've been in leadership positions. You've been, you're disciplined. You've been training people. That's awesome. They mean it. But they're not ready to turn over a freaking department to you. Cause they're like, that's great. Right? We're not, we're building widgets over here. We're not, we're not in machine gun fights.

• 11:46Jocko Willink?

  So even though they're, they mean it, but they don't mean it. They, they have the respect, but they're not willing to bet on that. And so you gotta earn it, man. You gotta earn it. And that's one of the problems that vets run into is they think like, I used to be in charge of, you know, a thousand guys in a battalion. Seven, I had 700 guys into my battalion and I had however many millions and millions of dollars worth of gear. You know, I was in charge of a billion dollar Navy ship. Okay.

• 12:16Jocko Willink?

  But wow, that's awesome. I really respect the fact that you had a, you were in charge of a billion dollar warship.

• 12:23Jocko Willink?

  A billion dollar warship was completely under your command. And that's awesome. I, they do respect it, but they're not going to give you command of this freaking department over here that has annual budget of 1.6 million dollars.

• 12:36Jocko Willink?

  So be ready for that. Stay humble is what we, what we're talking about. You gotta stay humble and you gotta earn it. You know, you gotta earn that respect. And if you did a good job when you were commanding that warship or you were commanding that battalion or you're commanding that, that platoon. Okay. You should be able to quickly adapt to this new endeavor and do a good job from a leadership perspective and move up the chain of command. It's like, it's like that.

• 13:02Jocko Willink?

  So there you go. That's my answer to Corey. Next up, we got David. Play to win, but the game is a zero sum event. Why? Because we all die and take nothing with us to the next, next life, except our souls.

• 13:20Jocko Willink?

  Fair enough.

• 13:22Jocko Willink?

  You know, zero sum, the technical definition is one person wins. In order for one person to win, someone else has to lose. That's what it is. And I don't really think life is like that. I don't think it's a zero sum game. I think I can actually play a good game. And I can win, and I actually think my wins can benefit other people. So I'm not sure I really agree with David. I don't think it's a zero sum. I think you can do a good job and you can win. And I think. One of the best things that you can do as a person is as you win, take other people along with you. Like, hey, I got a winning team over here. Come with me. You know, hook a carabiner into my vehicle here and we're gonna roll. We're gonna keep rolling. Come along. I got room. You know, let's do this. So.

• 14:06Jocko Willink?

  I think you can leave before, I think you can go through this life and die and actually.

• 14:12Jocko Willink?

  Actually leave something very positive with other people. That you've encountered in your life and you've helped along the path.

• 14:20Jocko Willink?

  Help them play the game, bring them onto your team. Look, if you're good at playing the game, get some other people in the game with you. This is a beautiful thing. That's what I think, David.

• 14:33Speaker 01

  That, what do they call that nihilism, right? Where it's like, hey, we all die or whatever, but.

• 14:38Jocko Willink?

  It's kind of exhausting, as they say in The Big Lebowski.

• 14:42Speaker 01

  The. Don't you kind of feel like life is kind of like this big balancing act? Where it's like, hey, you got, you got some time to make things happen. And then when you're done, you gotta pass it on to someone else and they better make things happen. Cause everyone's time is gonna eventually run out, kind of a thing. So that's why like when you have kids or whatever, you wanna pass knowledge, you wanna pass values. You wanna pass all this stuff back to them. But they're gonna die anyway, right? Okay, that's why it's their job to pass that same stuff. And then there are additions to it to other people. It doesn't have to be kids.

• 15:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I was gonna say, that's what I was gonna say. It's like, it doesn't just have to be your kids. Like, you got a group of people. If you're doing well, cool. Grab some people and bring them with you. Like, that to me is a super positive thing that you can do. And if you, and here's, here's where I think. Again, when you start looking at the strategic game, like the game, the overarching game of life, and you're on your deathbed, I don't think there's anyone that will regret helping other people out, giving people a better future with their own kids, with the people that they affected in their life, the people they impacted. I think that's as good as it's gonna get.

• 15:49Jocko Willink?

  You live the good, you don't say, oh, that guy lived a good life because he made a bunch of money and was selfish and kept it all to himself. No, no one says that. No, they say, man, look at what this guy did with the people that he influenced and impacted and was, you know, whether they made money or not, oh, you know, the coach in school that helped everyone and pointed him in the right direction and like all those people have a huge impact. That is how you win the game.

• 16:16Jocko Willink?

  The more people you help.

• 16:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, because that game, I mean, technique in a way, the game never really ends until everybody dies. So you're, it's a, it's kind of like, you know, the, you know, the, if you think of a chain, maybe not a chain, but just think about like how generations like progress, right? Go on and on. This guy dies, their sons, daughters, people, whatever they grew up, they die, but they pass it on, you know? In that chain of knowledge, progress, everything that gets passed through time or whatever, it's kind of like you want to evaluate, what was my role in that, you know? So if you're just a selfish person, you have, you literally have no role in it if you're just selfish, no matter how rich, no matter how much weight you lift, no matter how much jujitsu you did, if you're just doing it, even though jujitsu, you have a lot of training partners. So that's in and of itself beneficial.

• 17:02Jocko Willink?

  But check it out. If you're a jujitsu guy, and what you do is you come and train and you get better and you win competitions and you're the champion.

• 17:12Jocko Willink?

  But you didn't really, you, you never coached anybody, you never helped anybody.

• 17:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:15Jocko Willink?

  Who, who does, who does everybody love? Everybody loves Henzo.

• 17:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:18Jocko Willink?

  Because Henzo got, you know, has, sure, Henzo's got a great competition in MMA and jujitsu, but he spread the word.

• 17:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:25Jocko Willink?

  He helped as many people as he can, you know, everyone, and that's when you think about like, What you want to do, huh, to help more people.

• 17:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:35Jocko Willink?

  Train more people, coach John Donahue, right? What's he doing? He's really helping out a lot of people get better at jujitsu. It has nothing, I don't know if he's competed, has he competed before?

• 17:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, back in the day and actually a lot of martial arts from what I.

• 17:47Jocko Willink?

  But how about the jujitsu?

• 17:48Speaker 01

  A lot of, I don't know.

• 17:49Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 17:50Speaker 01

  That's before.

• 17:50Jocko Willink?

  But, but he's having a huge impact.

• 17:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:52Jocko Willink?

  And, you know, Gordon Ryan and his team is all like, oh yeah, we, like Gordon Ryan said, I'm not competing if, if, if John's not coaching you.

• 18:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:01Jocko Willink?

  Which is kind of a crazy thing to say, right? But that's how much respect he has and how appreciative he is of John Donahue. John Donahue has invested his life into these other guys on his team.

• 18:12Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 18:13Jocko Willink?

  That's what's made him, that's what's made him, uh, uh, uh, an icon of the sport.

• 18:21Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 18:21Jocko Willink?

  Not because he's a champion himself, but because he's taken and passed it on. Now, at some point, hopefully Gordon Ryan says, oh, I've done what I can do in the competition. Now I'm gonna go and I'm gonna help as many people get better at jujitsu.

• 18:36Speaker 01

  He's already doing that, by the way, and a lot of us, you know, like in jujitsu or whatever, know that that's kind of part of the natural jujitsu progression.

• 18:43Jocko Willink?

  Hmm.

• 18:44Speaker 01

  And especially now that you can like sell your techniques and you know, have a career of the, of passing on your techniques or whatever. That's like part of it. And sure, of course you get paid for it and everything, but think about the, in the big picture where now all this knowledge came from, let's say it came from whoever, you know, start even starting at the beginning with the Gracies or whatever, coming all the way down. Then Dean Lister had his thing who affected John Donahue and they're like, hey, let's, let's pass it on, passing Gordon Ryan. Gordon Ryan influences people with his performances and his, he's spreading the same knowledge to other people.

• 19:14Jocko Willink?

  BJJ Fanatics.com?

• 19:15Speaker 01

  I think so. Yeah, fully. And, um, so now when you look at the, the big picture, that chain, like, let's say you can grab any individual, take Gordon Ryan, right? What role did he play in this proliferation of this new knowledge, improvement of the whole jujitsu community?

• 19:32Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 19:32Speaker 01

  What role did he play? Huge role, huge role. But yeah, you're right. If he, if he just competed and kept it.

• 19:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 19:38Speaker 01

  And just like every, every one of his actions was solely to benefit himself and not to like the zero sum game. Like for me to benefit, no one else can benefit. So no one else benefited from his knowledge, whatever. Then you ask that same question. Then you'd be like, hmm, I don't know.

• 19:52Jocko Willink?

  But the correlation is perfect for life.

• 19:55Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 19:55Jocko Willink?

  Because if you take someone like in the SEAL teams. If you had someone that was called a great operator in the SEAL teams. Everyone that's known as a great operator, they took their skill. Like there's somebody, oh yeah, that guy was a great this, great that at this individual skill. But someone that took that individual skill and then they taught it to as many people as they can. That person gets sort of elevated in people's minds in the business world. Okay, cool. You were successful in business. But if you were successful in business and you didn't help share and start other businesses to help people grow. Then people don't really appreciate what you're doing. So this is, this is one of those questions that I got asked at one of the Jocko Live events. A few years ago, that was 2020, actually. I'll always remember because it was right before COVID kicked in.

• 20:41Jocko Willink?

  But you know, it's like, oh, what, what do you, what's the meaning? Meaning, what's the meaning of life? Like the basic question, it's like, oh, help other people out. And this is what it boils down to. So when you're playing the game, you need to put into your calculus. At some point, what you need to do is help other people. Because if you're not helping other people and you're keeping it for yourself, you're going to lose the game in the end.

• 21:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:01Jocko Willink?

  You're going to lose the game.

• 21:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:03Jocko Willink?

  So put that into your schedule. That when you get the opportunity to help someone out, you can help them out.

• 21:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, I agree. So that, yeah, the, the old. And I know they probably mean it to mean more than just this, but how it can come off when they're like, hey, you can't take it all with you. Right?

• 21:22Jocko Willink?

  True.

• 21:23Speaker 01

  It's like, bro. That, that goes beyond like the intention even of having it. And if that is the intention, like that's like a bad, a bad intention just to think in that way. Where it's like, yeah, because the, the whole, the whole reason of like, it's not the whole reason of life, but like part of like the massive reason of life is to get what you can, learn what you can, everything. And then it's like, if you had a blender, right? Here's the thing, you've got a, if you're, you had a blender, you're blending smoothies, you're blending milkshakes, you're blending like all this stuff in this blender is freaking awesome. And you're, and you're, you know, maybe you're making stuff for your kids, your neighbors or whatever, but you're going to die now.

• 21:59Speaker 01

  Take that blender, you say, hey, you, young kid, you get this blender now, here's all the recipes. I'm done. You take it from here, kind of a thing. And I'm done, I die. They do the same thing. So now that blender, it's like, oh yeah, if I took that blender with me to the grave, it's kind of like that blender doesn't, doesn't help nobody. But now you pass it on until they die, they pass it on and that blender keeps on blending. See what I'm saying?

• 22:19Jocko Willink?

  And hopefully you're teaching people how to build a blender and then they can give away four blenders. So when you die, you don't just have one, you give it to four people.

• 22:25Speaker 01

  Now you're talking like, yeah, big time stuff, you know, and there's levels to it, you know, not everyone's gonna do all that, but as far as the, you know, the essence of it all, you know, yeah, you don't take it with you, you pass it on to the next guy.

• 22:38Jocko Willink?

  Pass it on, man. And, and man, you gotta be a, you gotta be a real kind of sad person when you're trying to hoard that information. You're trying to keep it all.

• 22:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:49Jocko Willink?

  It's a real, that's gonna hurt you.

• 22:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:53Jocko Willink?

  It's gonna hurt you.

• 22:53Speaker 01

  It kind of goes for everything when you think about it. And obviously this isn't a like super cutting drive, but like when you're one of those people who, who don't want to share info, you don't wanna, you don't wanna share, even like people who hoard like resources, you know, just to hoard it, just to have it all, you know, and I don't, it's like just that way of being is kind of like, ooh, doesn't that, it kind of goes against the whole thing.

• 23:15Jocko Willink?

  Yep. And there's gotta be a way to work through that, you know, if you grow up where you're, where you're, where you're, where you're living in the life of scarcity, when whatever it is, whether it's knowledge, or you know, you were, you had to fight and scrap to figure it out, and you finally figured it out, or you had to fight and scrap to make money, and you finally got money, or you had to fight and scrap to get skill, and now you finally got skill. And that would happen with jujitsu, right? The jujitsu person that like, came up and had to figure it out and got treated like crap by his instructor, that person, there's a decent chance that that person now treats other people like crap and doesn't share anything, and doesn't show how you did that arm lock. There's also a decent chance they go, I'm not gonna be like that guy.

• 23:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:57Jocko Willink?

  So, and that's the same thing with business, it's the same thing with life, like you had to, man, I had to freaking earn it. And therefore Echo, I'm not gonna show you my little tricks of the trade, I'm not gonna show you this, the way I did this marketing campaign, cuz you gotta figure it out. But if I go, hey, you know, it was hard for me, I'm actually gonna hook Echo up. That's what we're doing. That's how you win the game.

• 24:21Jocko Willink?

  Alright, next question from Walter. How do you think Sun Tzu viewed the game? In parentheses, long game, and played it? And how's that different from the way you slash we played? Uh, I, you know, I think that he was, I mean, obviously a strategic thinker. So yes, he was thinking about the long game. He saw the game and he made basic. I hate using the word basic. I actually changed when we would teach in land warfare. We had like something like basic, basic maneuvers. And I changed it to fundamental because people think basic is not good. But they actually think fundamental is good. Yeah. So he, Sun Tzu pointed out fundamental theories of the game and principles of the game.

• 25:05Jocko Willink?

  That, you know, you gotta understand yourself. You've got to understand your opponent. You've got to retreat when you need to retreat. You've got to re-attack when you're able to. Don't attack this enemy strong point. All these things. He understood the game.

• 25:18Jocko Willink?

  And I think there's just alignment. I don't think there's any major, uh, major outliers that he had some big different thought. It's all universal. If you know the way Broadway broadly, you see it in all things.

• 25:35Jocko Willink?

  Uh, Michael, Michael asks, is the game the path?

• 25:44Jocko Willink?

  Or is the journey as we venture, or is it the journey as we venture down the path? I, as much as my kind of instinct was like, yes, you know, kind of like wanting to get, but, but I would say actually not really, um, because there's a lot of different games being played. I think that's the main thing. Like there's a lot of different games being played. You're playing a game at work. You're playing a game with your relationships. You're playing a game with your health. You're playing a game. Like all this is all this a bunch of, and then you've got the big overarching game of life.

• 26:12Jocko Willink?

  Now,

• 26:14Jocko Willink?

  I, you know, when I think of the path, you know, capital T, capital P, right? True. This to me is the, is the focus on ourselves of getting better. Right? Getting better.

• 26:29Jocko Willink?

  Health, stronger, faster, smarter, creating stability, taking responsibility. To me, those things in life are the path. Doing, the, the path is doing the right things for the right reasons, right? To make sure that you are doing the right things. And I would say that doing the right, one of doing the right things is helping other people. Is trying to teach, trying to pass on what you've learned. So I guess you could stretch it a little bit, but now, you know, when I, but that being said, generally when I refer to the path, I'm talking about the path of discipline equals freedom.

• 27:13Jocko Willink?

  The path of having discipline in your life to do the right things, do what you're supposed to do and move forward. Be better, be faster, be stronger. Here's the thing, unless you are, unless you, unless you do that for yourself, you're gonna have a lot harder time helping other people. If your life is falling apart, it's gonna be hard for you to help other people out. So I don't really equate the game as the path. I don't really think they're the same thing.

• 27:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, it doesn't feel like it. I feel like the path is like this dynamic framework that you can kind of follow and utilize to, to put yourself in a position to perform better in the game.

• 28:00Jocko Willink?

  Oh yeah, for sure, for sure. Yeah, and, and that's one of those things too, is like, sure, there's sort of a universal path that we can all kind of nod our heads and say, yeah, but you might, your path might be a little bit different than mine.

• 28:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:13Jocko Willink?

  So, so there you go. There's my answer.

• 28:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, as you kind of, like, there are some fundamentals in the path. There's like, you know, there's just a handful of them though, you know, the health thing, but health can look different. So if you just keep going a little bit more advanced in the health part of it, then that can look different for a lot of people, but the health thing is a factor. And you know, the relationship, the learning, the education part of it and, and all this stuff, the, the discipline part of it, just that idea of discipline, discipline's gonna look different for everybody. But the fact that you can be like, hey, I'm gonna do what's right now, so I can have that payoff later in many ways, that's really, you know, the, the dynamics of this.

• 28:54Jocko Willink?

  It's the path of discipline. Ultimately, the path is the path of discipline and where it leads is to freedom. That's what the path is. The path is the path of discipline and where it leads is to freedom. And that applies to everything that is going on in your life. Health, fitness, business, finances, relationships. It's all, all of those to, to reach a point of freedom in any category. You have to be on the path of discipline. So there you go. Uh, next up, Forrest. Is it better to play this game solo, multiplayer, or does that matter season to season?

• 29:40Jocko Willink?

  Cool. Uh, look, there's some games that are solo. There's some games that are multiplayer. There's some games that are played against other people. There's some games that you play against yourself. So again,

• 29:55Jocko Willink?

  the, the whole reason for this series of podcasts was for people to gain the perspective that what you're doing

• 30:07Jocko Willink?

  in life, in, in many different aspects of life can be looked at as a game. And the failure to look at it as a game means you're not exactly sure what the rules are. You're not exactly sure how to advance. You're not exactly sure what the goals are. And without goals and without knowing how to advance and without knowing what the parameters are, not know what the rules are, it's hard to, it's hard to know what's happening.

• 30:27Jocko Willink?

  So this idea of looking at a relationship, looking at a job, looking at an education, looking at your college class, looking at life, looking at real estate, looking at any of these things as a game gives you a perspective to move and do better in that arena, whatever that arena is. So some of them are solo. You know, fitness is kind of a solo thing. Now, can you play it as a team? Yeah, you can get a couple more people that want to work out with you, that want to train with you, that are going to help you, you know. Have you ever echoed Charles, had a, you ever had like a legit workout partner?

• 31:04Speaker 01

  Yes, almost. Yeah. I mean, aside from most, I would say most of my life, but I'm trying to think now. I've been working alone, but yes.

• 31:12Jocko Willink?

  And

• 31:12Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 31:13Jocko Willink?

  And who would you more easily let down and not show up for the workout? Your workout partner or yourself?

• 31:19Speaker 01

  My workout part, the answer, the short answer is I would let down myself 1,000 million percent. And I would never, in fact, I don't even know if I ever had, I mean, unless I was sick. So I mentioned my, okay, so one of my main workout partners in life was a guy named Squatty Lewis. Scotty Lewis, AKA police, uh, he's, he's a policeman in the big island.

• 31:40Jocko Willink?

  Right. You're not getting the nickname Squatty for no reason.

• 31:43Speaker 01

  For no reason. Exactly. Right. So, and then, then we had another guy named Rinda Brooks. It was three of us. So Rinda Brooks could bench more, Squatty Lewis could squat more than everybody. And then I was more the more balanced guy who was like, you know, we're all pretty close, but oh, bro, a hundred percent. So I would even say the multiplayer scenario is if you can pull that off, you want to do that more often than not. If you can pull it off.

• 32:07Jocko Willink?

  Totally.

• 32:07Speaker 01

  And it, you know, and even with that, like you gotta kind of choose the right people because you get, you know, things can arise that might work against you sometimes, but I'm saying if you can pull it off, multiplayer and fitness, that's a good one, right? Where it makes it not only more enjoyable, the hard parts makes it more enjoyable. But yes, you're way more accountable. There's like so many dynamics that are there with multiplayer with more people than it is by, by yourself. In fact, you can find yourself, and actually this might even be a skill to develop. But if you're not looking at, at it that way, you'll have additional struggles by yourself. Like additional challenges that you might not need, you know, if you're trying to reach a certain goal.

• 32:48Speaker 01

  But with like other people, if you guys are on the same page, it, you can just blow through stuff.

• 32:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Having that team aspect.

• 32:57Jocko Willink?

  So maybe to amend my initial answers like yeah, there's solo games, there's multiplayer. You're probably going to be better off in most scenarios, getting a couple of people, getting a team, being multiplayer.

• 33:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, it's pretty rare. You're going to find some stuff and of course you could drill down and go really deep and be like technically that's by yourself. But you're going to be hard for us to find a scenario where you'd be better off alone rather than with a guy who's down the down for the cause as much as you aligned. And not to mention three guys or four guys or a whole team, you know, like multiple people will get it done better than one person. Most of the time.

• 33:32Jocko Willink?

  That's just, that's just the way it is. So there you go. If you can get that multiplayer game going. Next one from Ray. What advice do you have for entering the game later in life, starting a business at 41, feeling like I lost some key years to make hay while the sun shines?

• 33:53Jocko Willink?

  Thanks, Chalk. Huge part of the reason I got it together is your podcast. Well, that's awesome. But it hadn't, didn't have anything to do with me. That's you. You got it together. I didn't do it. So here's, here's the thing. You're 41 years old. Guess what? You have some experience in life. So utilize that experience and be smart.

• 34:15Jocko Willink?

  Also, you have to pay attention because you're 41.

• 34:23Jocko Willink?

  You've got limited time for reboots, right? You got limited games. You got limited number of games you're going to play from here on out. Like you probably lost the opportunity to play two, three games. Now what's cool is you learned a lot. You may not feel what, what hap- what happens now? You look back and you're like, man, I missed out on that game. I missed out, but now you know, you know what you missed out on. So, you know, do a little bit of risk mitigation, a little bit extra risk mitigation, lean a little bit conservative, a little bit more conservative than you would if you were 22. You're 22, you're like, I don't care. I'll live in my car, right? Well, you're 41. I don't know. You got a wife, kids, like you're not living in your car.

• 35:01Jocko Willink?

  So you gotta, you gotta mitigate risk a little bit. What the good thing is when you're 21, you're spending money on freaking booze and clubs. You're not doing that when you're 41. You can be smarter. So.

• 35:15Jocko Willink?

  You you keep that in mind. Know what the minimum standard is? You know, um, I joke or I don't joke. I often tell people that, you know, when I was starting businesses and whatnot. I told my wife, I was like, hey, you know, if this doesn't go well, we might be just like living in our RV, traveling up and down the coast of California surfing and just hanging out. And we won't have a house or anything. And she was like, that sounds kind of fun. I was like, okay, cool. So know what the minimum standard for your family is and what the minimum standard for you is. And then don't, you know, put that money, take that money off the table. Take that lifestyle money off the table. To make sure that you're good to go. You know, there's a temptation when you're thirty one.

• 35:59Jocko Willink?

  You're like, oh, I got this business going. It's going well. I'm gonna, I'm gonna mortgage the house. Well, when you're thirty one and you mortgage the house and you lose it, cool. Your bankruptcy clears by the time you're, by the time you're, uh, what, seven years? So you clear that BK and now you can come back. You've got a steady job. You can begin another house, right? But if you're forty one, and you mortgage the house and then you lose it, now you're like fifty, bro. We don't want to be doing that. So that's why I'm saying, risk mitigation. That would be the, uh, advice for entering the game a little later on. Pay attention.

• 36:36Jocko Willink?

  Next question from Mike. Cool car, the cool part about life as a game is that there are no three strikes and out. As hard as life can be made, or it is easier. It is the easier fact known. As hard as life can be or made, it is the easier fact known. Not quite sure a hundred percent there. There's always something else you can do. Yep. Just don't quit. Yep. That's true for the most part.

• 37:05Jocko Willink?

  We can screw things up permanently. And look, you can, you can screw things up permanently and you can try to recover from them and you can move your life in a better direction, but like you get a DUI where you kill a freaking kid on a bicycle and you go to prison and you come out with no license and guilt, like you can do better. But you know, you're, you're gonna have a hard time. Life is gonna be hard. You, you know, get caught with, you know, drugs, doing something stupid coming across the border, right? I mean, you can do some dumb stuff. You, you can get, oh, you're drunk. You hit some punch some guy in the face. He falls down, hits his head on a curb. He's, he dies.

• 37:47Jocko Willink?

  And it's on video and everybody sees that you started it and now you're going to jail for manslaughter. Like the, so, so just, just keep that in mind. Just keep that in mind. There are things that you can do that's kind of like strike three. And look, you're, you're, you can, you can still get your life together. You can still move it in the, in the most positive direction. Like you can definitely move things in a positive direction, but you're gonna be in a tough spot and it's gonna take a long time to recover. So that's why let's be smart.

• 38:19Jocko Willink?

  How many of those things that I just mentioned were alcohol involved? Man, alcohol like just, you know,

• 38:24Speaker 01

  It's a big one.

• 38:24Jocko Willink?

  You got rid of that. If you took that out of your life, or if you took that out of society, there'd be so many less people doing dumb stuff.

• 38:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:33Jocko Willink?

  I mean, go watch, uh, whatever kind of fights, you know, the fights on YouTube.

• 38:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. Hell yeah. Best street fight.

• 38:42Jocko Willink?

  Best street fights or whatever.

• 38:43Speaker 01

  It's like a Twitter account, I think.

• 38:44Jocko Willink?

  But occasionally you'll see two guys that are like sober and squaring off, like a road rage incident. Like they're both sober, but man, a lot of them, they're drunk in the streets.

• 38:53Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 38:54Jocko Willink?

  Did you see that one where that freaking guy got his neck, got his throat cut?

• 38:57Speaker 01

  No.

• 38:58Jocko Willink?

  Oh, it was like in Australia and you know, guys just out, they're drunk. Obviously when everyone's not totally drunk, but you can tell they're drunk and they're talking shit to each other. And you know, the guy kind of gets in another guy's face and the guy has a knife. He's like, well, what are you gonna do? Cut me? And then they kind of walk away and you're like, oh, okay. And then they confrontation comes back. They start yelling each other and the dude. Just like in a split second, cuts the dude's throat. And the guy kind of grabs his neck. He doesn't really react, other than grabbing his neck and you can see blood just pouring out. And uh, he grabs his neck, he holds his neck while standing for two seconds, then he slumps to the ground and he's dead. You know? You take alcohol out of that, neither one of these people would have done this dumb shit.

• 39:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:44Jocko Willink?

  And you think, and it's all on video, so the guy that did the knifing is now in jail for the rest of his life. Uh, it's just terrible. So, yes, I agree with you, Mike. There's no three strikes, like you can, hey, you can fail this business, you can, you can break up with this relationship, you can start a career that didn't go very well. All those things can happen, all those are recoverable, just don't, just, just, just don't do anything really stupid.

• 40:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, a lot of those, uh, a lot of mistakes that we make in life are very avoidable. Like, you know, I, I understand, like, hey, man, you made the best decision, it turned out to be wrong and all this stuff or whatever, you know, little lapses of judgment like here now. But yeah, like, there's some big ones, like how you said that, like, the DUI one, and, cause that's super common then, DUI, super common. So it's like, that's a completely hundred percent avoidable thing. Even a fight, a street fight, isn't a hundred percent avoidable all the time, but a DUI, straight up is. So, the alcohol element of it makes those avoidable problems harder to avoid.

• 40:48Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 40:49Speaker 01

  Freaking influence.

• 40:50Jocko Willink?

  Be careful.

• 40:51Speaker 01

  It's like this powerful bad influence, that's what it is.

• 40:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, just, just like, kind of puts your judgment to sleep for a little while. It's like in bed, your judgment wakes up later, when you're in prison, or you're in like the jail cell.

• 41:05Jocko Willink?

  And your, your, your judgment wakes up and it's like, bro.

• 41:10Jocko Willink?

  What did you do? And you're like, you know, it's kind of like, I hope you didn't do anything that stupid. You know, I hope you just got into a little scuffle with a bouncer and you got locked up. Hope we're not in here for a manslaughter.

• 41:21Speaker 01

  Your judgment wakes up.

• 41:22Jocko Willink?

  Right?

• 41:23Speaker 01

  Like more like he was asleep the whole time.

• 41:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 41:25Speaker 01

  It wakes up. What'd I miss?

• 41:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, what I missed.

• 41:27Speaker 01

  Like, where are we right now?

• 41:29Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's. I, I will say like, I always had a little voice in the back of my head. Even when, when I used to drink, I'd be like, it's a good time to leave. Like, hey, grab the guys and get out of here.

• 41:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:38Jocko Willink?

  Like, this is, this isn't going in a good direction. Time to get, hey, guys, let's, let's roll. I always had that little, little something in the back of my head.

• 41:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:47Jocko Willink?

  Thankfully.

• 41:48Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 41:48Jocko Willink?

  Some people, that judgment, man, he's going to sleep real quick.

• 41:51Speaker 01

  Gotta watch out.

• 41:52Jocko Willink?

  Get that sauce in there. Uh, all right, Matt says, how do you manage multiple games that are going on? Yep, prioritize and execute. And listen, here's the thing with prioritize and execute is as you're doing it, you have to be, you have to have an open mind and pay attention to the feedback that you're going to get. Right? Multiple games, you got your job, you got your family, you got your fitness. There's three of them, right? We're playing all these games. Job, family, fitness. And so at some point in your life, your job is going to be more important. You got a big project that's due. And like it's with a huge client or it's, you're building something and you got a big concrete pour that's going on and you got to get everything. Where are you? You're working from some 16 hour days, getting ready for that.

• 42:34Jocko Willink?

  And your, your family is going to get put on the back burner. Your fitness gets put on the back burner a little bit. But listen, you got to pay attention when you, when you come home after that concrete pour happens and you did it and successful. And now, okay, it's time to like, be home on time. It's time to cut the boys loose for a little while and like, hey, let everyone go have dinner with your family. Oh, you got to go to the, the wrestling match tonight, go to the wrestling practice, just, you know, check in with the kids, see how they're doing. Maybe your fitness fell off a little bit for four or five days.

• 43:06Jocko Willink?

  So you gotta pay attention to that. You gotta be attuned to the feedback that you're gonna get. The feedback from you're gonna get from your, in this particular case, your fitness. You're like, yeah, I feel like crap. Yeah, I was, I went up and visited my daughter. And, you know, we went out to some like nice restaurants and whatnot. And we came home, I told my wife, I was like, I might be getting sick. I feel, I don't feel good. And I was like, oh no, I ate like french fries yesterday and like pizza or pasta, something like that before. And I was like, oh, that's like two days of kind of junk. And sure enough, came home and I did like a, a little fast.

• 43:49Jocko Willink?

  And then just ate clean for a day. I was like, oh, I'm, I'm actually fine. I just felt like junk because I ate like junk. So I also had some German chocolate cake. Are you aware of this?

• 43:58Speaker 01

  I'm aware of German.

• 44:00Jocko Willink?

  We, we got one and we kind of passed it around the fam.

• 44:04Jocko Willink?

  But it was really good, you know, but that's another thing that you don't feel good. You feel good while you're eating it. But then when you're done eating it, well, actually it's about like maybe the next day. You feel, I don't know. We pass it around. I probably had seven bites of it. Lot of frosting. I kind of went deep on the frosting.

• 44:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Is that the, is there coconut in that?

• 44:26Jocko Willink?

  Yes, there's coconut, yeah. Yeah, but it's one of these, you ever been to a place where they go, oh, you gotta try this thing, whatever. It's like their specialty. So it was one of those places.

• 44:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, I dig it, man. In seven bites, hmm, you know, it's not too bad. If you eat like two whole ones or something, then you might be in trouble.

• 44:43Jocko Willink?

  But then, you know, I had the, I forget about, no, there's bread came out and I was like, eh, because look, bread, let's face it. You get like that hot bread from a restaurant.

• 44:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:54Jocko Willink?

  And, uh, and it's got like the, you know, they put butter with the flavor in it of some kind.

• 44:59Speaker 01

  Oh, big time, yeah.

• 45:01Jocko Willink?

  So when that shows up, sometimes that can be, sometimes you go, hmm, discipline equals freedom. Here's the freedom part. I'm gonna get me some of that.

• 45:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 45:08Jocko Willink?

  But it's gotta be good.

• 45:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:09Jocko Willink?

  For me, like I want it to be really, I don't, if it's okay.

• 45:14Speaker 01

  Eh, you're passing.

• 45:15Jocko Willink?

  Passing.

• 45:16Speaker 01

  That's so funny. I'm the exact same thing.

• 45:17Jocko Willink?

  Okay, well, there you go.

• 45:18Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 45:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 45:19Speaker 01

  Brother, there's a place called Kioki's Paradise on Kauai, South Side, if you ever go.

• 45:23Jocko Willink?

  Oh, hell, yeah.

• 45:24Speaker 01

  So, instead of bread, they have muffins and they're like kinda sweeter, but I think they're like a, I don't know, they have some, maybe some carrot shards. I don't know. What's that? Something in there and they're sweet muffins. And then they bust out.

• 45:37Jocko Willink?

  Carrot shards.

• 45:40Speaker 01

  You know, you shard it or what do you call, uh, you grate the carrot.

• 45:43Jocko Willink?

  I hear you. I'm tracking, bro. I'm tracking those carrot shards.

• 45:45Speaker 01

  Anyway, these muffins are like really good. And so, like, and just like you where it's like, yeah, if they bust out bread and I look at it and the crust of the bread is kinda hard and like, it's just normal bread, bro, I'm passing on every day, every time. But sometimes, and it depends, there's different kinds of, where like, oh yeah, there's some, there's some good bread scenarios that you're like, okay, here's the freedom part.

• 46:05Jocko Willink?

  Well, that's like pizza.

• 46:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:07Jocko Willink?

  I mean, the range of taste of a good pizza versus a not good pizza, that's a huge range. And some pi- and pizza, let's face it, is kinda not good for you. And, but there's some, and there's some pizzas, you could eat it and it's just, you, it just tastes like crap.

• 46:25Speaker 01

  Not even worth it.

• 46:25Jocko Willink?

  Just junk. Why would you be eating this? Then sometimes you get, there's a couple of places where that pizza, you know, let's roll. Give me, give me a piece of that.

• 46:33Speaker 01

  Right. You know what pizza I freaking love and you're probably not even gonna be happy about this is Papa John's.

• 46:39Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 46:39Speaker 01

  It's like a full-on chain. Like, it's like, it's probably like a lot of artificial this and that in it. I don't know. I, I don't know the recipe, so I don't wanna make like that, but.

• 46:47Jocko Willink?

  You ever been to Felipe's Pizza Grotto?

• 46:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 46:50Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, or, yeah, in San Diego?

• 46:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, in.

• 46:53Jocko Willink?

  What do you mean?

• 46:54Speaker 01

  I dig it. I dig it. I dig it. But, I don't know.

• 46:57Jocko Willink?

  That place is next level. It's next level.

• 47:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, I dig it. I've always thought Lucadia was the best place in San Diego.

• 47:05Jocko Willink?

  Good, you know, good. But I'm just saying.

• 47:08Speaker 01

  Brother, there's a place called Brick Oven Pizza on Kwa. Yeah, we're going back to Kwa.

• 47:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, really.

• 47:13Speaker 01

  That's the, that's the level, what do you call it, in the top tier?

• 47:16Jocko Willink?

  Have you ever seen Dave Portnoy does like the pizza review thing?

• 47:19Speaker 01

  No.

• 47:20Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah. He just like tries pizza wherever he goes.

• 47:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:23Jocko Willink?

  Seems like a good idea.

• 47:24Speaker 01

  Yep, yep.

• 47:25Jocko Willink?

  You know? It's like a good excuse to just eat all kinds.

• 47:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:28Jocko Willink?

  And the other cool thing is like, he basically just has a few bites of it.

• 47:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:32Jocko Willink?

  You know? And then maybe you go, ah, it's not bad. And he rates it.

• 47:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:36Jocko Willink?

  And then he goes, oh, this one's a six point two. But if it's six point two, to me, it's not worth eating.

• 47:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:42Jocko Willink?

  You know? You get something that's a, you know?

• 47:45Speaker 01

  It's basically nine, 10.

• 47:47Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 47:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm with you. I'm with you.

• 47:50Jocko Willink?

  So you gotta pay attention to the feedback that you're getting. And make sure that you make adjustments in your priorities. Because if you come home from work after you've been pouring concrete and it's been a big part of the job and you've been working 18 hour days for six straight days, getting ready for the pour and then the pour, all this stuff.

• 48:11Jocko Willink?

  Now you get done with that, you gotta pay attention to your family who you've been blowing off. And you gotta say, oh, this weekend, guess what we're gonna do? I'm not gonna take my cell phone with me and we're just gonna go on this camping trip and we're gonna chill. So pay attention, be attuned to the feedback that you're gonna get. That's how you manage these multiple games that are going on in life.

• 48:31Speaker 01

  Uh, I like the idea of subtracting useless stuff. And sometimes it can be hard, especially if you really like doing it or whatever. I was talking to Keenan Cornelius, our friend, Jujutsu guy. And we were talking about how like, you know, we're catching up a little bit and he mentioned this, how he would, he subtracted some stuff out of his life.

• 48:51Jocko Willink?

  Like what?

• 48:51Speaker 01

  Video games.

• 48:52Jocko Willink?

  Oh.

• 48:53Speaker 01

  It was a big one. So if you like, video games, let's face it, I don't know where you're going with.

• 48:59Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 48:59Speaker 01

  It's crazy how video games are so prevalent, you know, even when I was young, I played video games or whatever, but um, I guess it's kind of like, in a way, in a way, kind of like alcohol where it's like, Ben, it's surprising how successful that is as a product.

• 49:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 49:11Speaker 01

  And it gets you literally nowhere. But it's like dang, but but there is something to it for sure. But anyway, the point is when you um, when you subtract these things that are conducive to especially when you talk about managing multiple games, bro. If you're managing multiple games, what the, what are you doing over here with the video games? Or whatever, whatever you're doing.

• 49:28Jocko Willink?

  Whatever that thing is.

• 49:29Speaker 01

  That's jamming you up.

• 49:30Jocko Willink?

  The booze.

• 49:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:31Jocko Willink?

  The video games. Did you ever get addicted to video games? Did you ever play more than like an hour, two hours a day?

• 49:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Um, no, I would not say I was addicted. It was just, I was a kid, young, I was a kid and freaking, yeah, the game Tekken. You ever heard of that? Tekken?

• 49:44Jocko Willink?

  I think I've seen like the graphics of it, but I don't think I ever played it.

• 49:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, the original PlayStation one and PlayStation two. That was my era of video game involvement.

• 49:53Jocko Willink?

  We're so, you know, my dad's like cheap, right?

• 49:58Speaker 01

  I do now, yeah.

• 49:59Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, but uh, but he was also kinda into computers early on.

• 50:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:03Jocko Willink?

  And so he had a Commodore sixty-four.

• 50:06Speaker 01

  Hell, yeah.

• 50:06Jocko Willink?

  Back in the day. But he had this game. So the games were all like kinda cheap imitations of real games.

• 50:13Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 50:15Jocko Willink?

  And we had one that was called Amok, A-M-O-K.

• 50:18Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 50:18Jocko Willink?

  Amok. That's probably the only video game I played.

• 50:22Speaker 01

  What is it?

• 50:22Jocko Willink?

  I don't know. I kind of, you ran around in some underworld, tried to stay away from the monsters or something.

• 50:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 50:29Jocko Willink?

  But the opening thing, it talked. The opening, it said, uh, another visitor, stay a while, stay forever. And then you started the game. But it was kinda that back in the day, having a thing that was talking was kinda legit.

• 50:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:45Jocko Willink?

  You were like, this thing might be kinda my friend.

• 50:49Speaker 01

  It actually sounds like a kinda crazy game.

• 50:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 50:51Speaker 01

  Commodore sixty-four?

• 50:53Jocko Willink?

  Commodore sixty-four.

• 50:54Speaker 01

  Remember Atari?

• 50:55Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 50:55Speaker 01

  Like, did you ever have an Atari?

• 50:57Jocko Willink?

  No, and that was the thing. Like, normal people got Ataris, but we didn't.

• 51:02Speaker 01

  No. Well, I don't think games were as addicting back then, no. I think they're just more, they're fun little recreational, kinda real basic, you know?

• 51:11Jocko Willink?

  They have an Atari thing where you just get like the Atari joystick and all the games are in it.

• 51:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I have that. Not Atari though, the Nintendo. I have the Nintendo one. And yeah, I play that. Doctor Mario. Cause there's some games that it's like, oh, this takes some actual like math, like. Geometry like skill like Tetris, Dr. Mario, like these kinds of of games, right? They can be pretty fun, but you could tell it takes like a different type of skill than like a

• 51:34Jocko Willink?

  But I would say the most addicted person to Tetris was still not like they started to hone how you get the dopamine, the dopamine distribution in those games where now, I mean, guys, I mean, we had a guy come to the monster, great dude, uh, who had been addicted to video games and he, he, he was like embarrassed to tell me about it, you know, he's like, I'm embarrassed to tell you this. I was addicted to video games. He goes, you're not going to understand this. He's like, I'm embarrassed to tell you this. You're not going to understand it at all. But I was addicted to video games. And I was like, well, what do you mean? He goes, I played whatever it was 13 hours, 14 hours, 15 hours a day, wouldn't sleep so I could play, had spent all my money on it, like all that stuff. And he realized it was an addiction. He listened to the podcast and

• 52:17Jocko Willink?

  realized it was addiction and said, okay, I gotta stop this shit. And he sold all of his games, sold his console, used the money to buy a ticket to come to monster. And he told me that story. But to your point, when you got, when you're trying to got these multiple games going on, and you got something that's encroaching on your time, that isn't giving you any benefit? That's when we talk about on one of the last podcasts about this subject, you're doing something that doesn't help your long term strategic goal, get it out, get it out. It's not worth it. So get it out of there.

• 52:46Speaker 01

  And you hear that too, where it's like, oh yeah, if you're binge watching a Netflix series, or it's like, that's kind of a version of that where it's like, yeah, you know, you know. So you gotta, yeah, you gotta take action on that kind of stuff. The, um, the video game thing, the new video games, and I'm sure this is their gig as far as video game creators, they make you care about what's going on in the game. So when you're not playing it, you still kind of care about that game, you know? It's like that kind of level stuff, like even the, you see the graphics nowadays?

• 53:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the graphics are insane.

• 53:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're like, I remember when we used to have Nintendo, right? The regular Nintendo, and then we'd go to this place called the Fun Factory, basically a video arcade. And those big games, you know, the stand up ones, the graphics like were so good, so good compared to the Nintendo. Nowadays, like you can have that, in fact, my brother has one of those big consoles and just like other Nintendo, all the games are in it. But you look at those, um, you look at those old school games like Rastan, it's like a Conan, a Conan guy. That was my favorite game. Just super basic, jump and strike, you can get different weapons, but it was awesome. And, um, basic, uh, Or the graphics are really good, but now you look at those graphics compared to like the graphic, the graphics now look like straight up movies.

• 53:58Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 53:59Speaker 01

  Actual motion.

• 54:01Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah. First of all, I've seen him. I've seen him.

• 54:02Speaker 01

  Freaking ridiculous.

• 54:05Jocko Willink?

  Get those things out of your, out of your, don't play those games. Play the real games.

• 54:10Jocko Willink?

  Next.

• 54:10Speaker 01

  Oh, wait. That's what Keenan said, right there. He was like, this is how I shifted it. He, um, with the video games, he was like, instead of like improving the status of my character in my video games, I am now the video game in my own, or I'm now the character in my own video game. So now I'm trying to improve the, and we went down the rabbit holes of like, there are so many things you can learn, like you, let's say you have, you know, you, you're very robust skill set, right, Jaco?

• 54:37Speaker 01

  Let's say you have six definite skill sets. Like, of course, there's a little micro skill sets within them. Let's say you have six marketable skills, we'll say, like black belt level, brown, black, competitive, we'll just say.

• 54:50Jocko Willink?

  I don't think, that's a big number. I don't know anybody that has six black belt level skills in their life.

• 54:54Speaker 01

  And that's part of the point. Well, okay, let's say you got four, right? That's a lot. Four is a lot.

• 55:00Jocko Willink?

  I think two would be pretty legit.

• 55:03Speaker 01

  So marketable skills, you're exactly right. One is, I would think, anyway, I don't know, I'm not the knower of all things, but it seems like one is about the standard. If you have two, right, you're, you're in excellence level. Now you have three. Okay, so of course it takes a while to get a black belt level.

• 55:19Jocko Willink?

  Like Renaissance, man, right? That's it, right? Someone that's got multiple black belts and multiple skill arenas.

• 55:25Speaker 01

  Now, the reality is you don't have to be a black belt in everything. And that's how the conversation started. Uh, he said, I'm a, he said, I was a polymath, polymath, that's, that's what, and I was like, what does that mean? He was like, you have like, um, usable skills in a bunch of different arenas and they all can play. And that's how we got on the video game. But it's like, man.

• 55:46Jocko Willink?

  Wait, he said he was a polymath?

• 55:48Speaker 01

  No, he said I was a polymath.

• 55:49Jocko Willink?

  You Echo Charles?

• 55:50Speaker 01

  Echo Charles, yeah.

• 55:51Jocko Willink?

  Were a polymath?

• 55:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:52Jocko Willink?

  Meaning you had multiple skills?

• 55:54Speaker 01

  That I had, okay, so me and Keenan, I know Keenan from back when I used to make videos for Metamorphosis, the thing. But I really hit it off with that guy when I met him, where he'd like be talking about something, but like, oh yeah. And I kept in touch with him and, and you know, then we start training to become friends, whatever, just over the years. But he was one of these main guys that I would like randomly have thoughts and ideas with. And then I'd like call him and like, we'd just talk, like I'd go to like drop something off at his gym or something, or see somebody or whatever. And wind up talking to him for like two hours in his office, about just all kinds of stuff, you know? So he's like one of these guys, and then I hadn't seen him for a long time till today, like in person. So he was like, oh yeah, so you know, so we're catching up is what I'm saying. And then it's like, oh, what have you been doing? And it's like, and you know, like, obviously there's obvious stuff that he knows that I'm doing, because he's online or whatever. Then there's like the additional stuff, and so we're just kind of catching up.

• 56:39Speaker 01

  That's when he was like, oh, you're like a polymath. You do this, this, this, this. And like, literally as part of your job, you know?

• 56:45Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 56:46Speaker 01

  So anyway, um, so the point there is in life, like there are so many opportunities and ways to learn new stuff. Where here's one, I went down this rabbit hole on, I'm not a, this isn't one of my marketable skills, obviously, but being a plumber. So the idea of being a plumber, you know, like, some people are like, oh yeah, that's so, that's basic stuff or whatever, but I never got into plumbing. I don't know how that stuff works. So like, you can go to like on YouTube and there's so many resources just to learn so many things in life where you can get all those skills, whatever skill you want.

• 57:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 57:20Speaker 01

  Now, if you can shift your mindset to be like, hey, that's my game. That's what I'm doing. I don't want to improve the, um, speed of my character on this video game. I want to improve the speed of my character in real life. Or this not, or like this, oh, now my, my video game character can cast spells, you know? Which is freaking sick.

• 57:39Jocko Willink?

  Oh, I can actually.

• 57:42Jocko Willink?

  Join copper pipe because I learned some skills.

• 57:44Speaker 01

  Exactly right.

• 57:45Jocko Willink?

  I got really lucky when it came to construction. I worked construction for a little while when I was a kid. And like the guy I worked for, he uh, he did everything.

• 57:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:55Jocko Willink?

  And so that means I did everything, right? Like we built whole houses from nothing to built.

• 58:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:01Jocko Willink?

  You know, that means you're doing, you have a little hand in everything and man, what a good experience. Cause I did, you know, like I did plumbing, I did electrical, I did framing, I did finish. And look, and I'm not, bro, I'm not good at any of these things.

• 58:16Speaker 01

  You're not black belt carpenter?

• 58:17Jocko Willink?

  Especially uh, finish work. Like I don't like finish work. That's where you're like.

• 58:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 58:22Jocko Willink?

  Little, it's, I don't have the mindset for it. Framing I like. Oh, I'm gonna, oh, this two by fours gotta move another half an inch to the left. Cool. Boom, boom. Ah, you know, it's like monkey, it's like ape activities.

• 58:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:36Jocko Willink?

  Whereas trim works like, hey, you gotta put this thing in the perfect need. It's a, you know, one sixteenth of an inch off, gotta redo it. I don't like that. You can't just hit it.

• 58:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:46Jocko Willink?

  But I got very lucky in, in having the opportunity to do a lot of those different skills.

• 58:50Speaker 01

  Right. And you reminded me of that when you were like, when you told the story, like actually it was a long time ago, but you recently kind of mentioned as well, where you'd like redid your whole kitchen or electrical or whatever over the weekend. And I'm like this, but I, I wish, cause my dad was carpeting it too. Like literally my dad and two other guys built our whole house.

• 59:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 59:08Speaker 01

  Where like, and I watched him and here's the thing, I would help, like we'd help. I knew like all about, but I need, I wasn't like, like how you got the opportunity to do it with them.

• 59:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 59:17Speaker 01

  I was just like, oh, go clean up. And my dad would, and I was interested in like the artistic part of stuff anyway. So I, but it just, it blew right by me unfortunately. And now as an adult, semi full grown adult, I'm like realizing the value of it, man. But man, if you pay attention, especially early on, actually whenever, man, just pay attention, but you can just, well, you can just, what do you call level, right? In the video game, you can level up your holes.

• 59:42Jocko Willink?

  Yep. So let's do that. Let's follow a little Keen and Cornelius. I'm, he gave us, we were training today. He's going, give me some good, some goods, you know, some goods. You know, just like, hey, you know, he's like, how I noticed you were doing this. Boom. Here's a solution. I'm like, and that's the thing with the jujitsu, just like life. You know, it's like, he's seeing something that I'm not seeing. Why? Cause I'm in the game. And he's watching me roll with Mihal and he's like, hey, you're doing this. And he goes, oh, you also did this with me and it doesn't work. And I was like, okay, cool. Can you, and he's like, yeah, here's the solution. Okay. Thank you. You know what I mean? Like that's, that's why opening your mind up,

• 1:00:22Jocko Willink?

  trying to put yourself into receive mode and, and putting yourself out there. Like you gotta do it.

• 1:00:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:30Jocko Willink?

  That's the same thing. That's, that's one thing that I, what's a bummer is even though YouTube's cool for like plumbing, nothing better than doing a project.

• 1:00:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I agree.

• 1:00:39Jocko Willink?

  Nothing better than doing a project. Cause that's how you're actually gonna do it. When you do it, you learn it. Now listen, you like a drywaller. Man, respect. Good drywallers, they'll drywall this room in like an hour. No kidding. The, the rock is, the, the rock is up and they mud it and tape it and it's done in an hour. This would take me, this would take me like a day and a half. You know, so I'm saying they could do it in an hour. Think about that. They could do it in an hour. It would take me a day and a half.

• 1:01:11Jocko Willink?

  Now over time you can get better at it, but got it. You gotta do it.

• 1:01:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:16Jocko Willink?

  You gotta do it.

• 1:01:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, but, but the YouTube or what, or whatever, whatever resource or what, it's like, it's literally a free like guide.

• 1:01:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:25Speaker 01

  And a free, kind of in a way, coach.

• 1:01:27Jocko Willink?

  You know what's interesting is when you were, that story about me redoing my kitchen. So I did my kitchen in my old house and like, I had a three day weekend and I got the hole, I stripped it down to the studs, redid the plumbing, redid the electrical and got the drywall hung. I didn't get it muddied. Got the drywall hung in 72 hours. Including putting in a new electrical sub panel for the, for the kitchen itself.

• 1:01:55Jocko Willink?

  But what's interesting, this is pre YouTube. I want to say this was like, uh, let's see, what year was that? I got that house. It might've been like, I don't know if YouTube was out, but it was like 2001, 2002, something like that. But you know what I had to do? Cause I took electricity in high school, but there's like, you know, you get like the faded memories.

• 1:02:18Jocko Willink?

  But I went to Home Depot and I bought like an actual book, like electrical work or whatever. And I was able to, oh yeah, now I remember that. Plumbing, I kind of remembered. Plumbing is a little bit easier to remember.

• 1:02:31Jocko Willink?

  The thing that sucks about plumbing is when you screw it up, you know, right where it is. Cause there's water coming out of it. The thing that sucks about electrical is when you screw it up, you don't know what, you don't know where you messed up. It's somewhere in the system. You know, seldom do you get like a spark. It's just like, oh, this doesn't work. You gotta figure it out.

• 1:02:48Jocko Willink?

  So there you go. All right. Next question. Kimberly says, could you touch more on deciding what new games to start? When coming to the end of the first big game? I may be coming to the end of my big game. And while I feel like the world is my oyster, I also don't really know where to start. I've been grinding at the same game for so long. I've never really thought about my values or made any other goals for myself outside of it. I want to make sure I'm honest with myself and not just throwing out random ideas that sound cool in the moment. Well, that's, that's, oh, hey, good for you. First of all, it sounds like probably this is a career situation. Does that sound like a career situation? You've been in a career, you've done good, you're exiting or you whatever, time to move on.

• 1:03:30Jocko Willink?

  First of all, I'd say there's lots of opportunities, you know? And I would not jump into any one of these opportunities at once. I wouldn't just over commit to any opportunity that comes up. I would, you know, do various reconnaissance and try, see what you like this and, you know, talk to these people and see what this game is like. And, you know, put, go try, you know, go try tennis, go try jujitsu, go try boxing, go try croquet. Go try, uh, what's the new one? Pickleball. Like give them a try. Now here's the, here's what's kind of challenging about this. When you're trying sports like that.

• 1:04:13Jocko Willink?

  There's a decent chance that you're not good enough at it to make it fun. When you go surfing for the first time, it's not fun. When you go to jiu-jitsu for the first time, it's not fun.

• 1:04:21Speaker 01

  I was thinking about that.

• 1:04:22Jocko Willink?

  When you go to tennis for the first time, it's not fun. When you go to pickleball for the first time, it's not fun. Right, you're just getting smashed. You've missed the ball. You get choked. You fall off the surfboard. You can't. So with those kind of activities, you have to do them long enough that you start to feel the return on investment from the effort that you're putting into it. So it's a little bit, you know, you have to pay attention to that when you're talking about what new career opportunity do you want to get into? Because some of it, you might go, I tried this and I don't like that industry. Okay, well, let's make sure that you actually understood it well enough. I think it's a little bit easier to understand an industry than a new physical sport.

• 1:05:06Jocko Willink?

  But I always talk about the fact that I like to try, from a business perspective, I like to try a lot of different things. Oh, we'll try this, we'll try that. You know, let's do this thing over here. Let's make this and see how they do. And don't over commit to something that we're not sure how well it's going to do. So I would, when it comes to trying to figure out what game to play next, I would dabble a bit. Go, go try, go experiment, go see what's going on. Go volunteer at some, you know, a financial firm. Go volunteer at some construction firm. You know, just, hey, I want to see what you guys do. And that's what I would do in that. I think the good, what I liked about this question was when you talked about the values.

• 1:05:52Jocko Willink?

  And I think you said, I've never really thought about my values or made any other goals for myself outside of the work that you were in. You said it, but outside the work that you were in. I think this is a great opportunity. And I think this would really drive the first part of the question. I think you need to write down, I think you need to do a little soul searching. And write down like, what are your values?

• 1:06:15Jocko Willink?

  What, what do you, what do you enjoy? What do you like? What do you want? What, what gives you gratification? And then figure out why those things give you gratification. And I think a good way to do this is play out some, uh, some hypothetical scenarios. Right? Like you're, oh, you, you're gonna go for this industry. What does it look like when you win? What kind of, you know, oh, I make a bunch of money. Well, make sure that that's really what you value. Because if you make a bunch of money, but you're working 80 hour days and you're stressed out all the time.

• 1:06:47Jocko Willink?

  Now, if you, there's some people that love that environment. You know, there's some people that love that environment. There's some people that really like that. I, I'll be honest with you. I kinda like it. I like when things are a little bit chaotic. I enjoy it when there's tough decisions to make. I really, I like that. Not everyone's like that. Some people, they start to break down when that happens.

• 1:07:07Jocko Willink?

  So I would try and, and, and yet there's like a push. Like a social push to be like on the grind, right? The grind's not good for everybody. Some people like it. Some people don't. It's not, if, but if it's not for you, then don't get into some game because everyone's on the grind and the grind and this and that.

• 1:07:28Jocko Willink?

  Oh yeah. Toxic productivity, right? Sure. Grind culture. Grind culture. Thank you. So we gotta watch out for that, but. Figure out what you actually value. So, so you see, there's a little difference between values and what you value. You know what I'm saying? Values is a thing like, hey, I value, my values are integrity. My values are treating people with respect. Those, those are good. But then you also have to figure out the other thing, which is with what you actually value. Not just your values as a person, but what you actually value. And then. Take that list, then go and start to do your reconnaissance of the world. And see what you really wanna do. Don't commit, don't over commit to anything.

• 1:08:13Jocko Willink?

  Take small steps and you're gonna end up in a good spot. Good luck, Kimberly.

• 1:08:20Jocko Willink?

  Next question is from Anthony.

• 1:08:23Jocko Willink?

  When you got into the game concerning the military, it really made me think about some of the struggles I've seen friends struggle with. Similar to the NFL, many people just give it everything and don't think about the broader game outside. Yes.

• 1:08:36Jocko Willink?

  You see people struggle with demons post-service because they feel dejected or cast out. Military, just like sports, isn't an end game. And if more young people understood that when joining it would probably help curb some of the issues that vets face later on. Yep, this is true. You, you gotta recognize that whatever your job is, whether you're an NFL player, a special operations commando, a hedge fund manager, whatever that thing is, it's not you. It's not you.

• 1:09:10Jocko Willink?

  And there's more to life than that thing. So keep that in mind all the time. Keep that in mind all the time. That that's one game and there's a bigger game to pay attention to. And that I agree with Anthony that that will help. Jessica says, first, I want to say I love these two episodes. And the quote, "Discipline is rooted in the truth we tell ourselves" was so good. My question is, would you please speak on the topic of playing the game you don't want to be in? For reference, my daughter is severely disabled by a rare genetic disorder. The game I play is not one I wanted to play in, yet as you say, all you can do is say good and move on with it. But this game is played with neither talent nor passion for the game.

• 1:09:54Jocko Willink?

  Only the Wii player you're playing it with.

• 1:09:58Jocko Willink?

  Comes with a lot of stress and regret for a path you don't get to get on.

• 1:10:06Jocko Willink?

  Well, yeah, Jessica, definitely there are games in life that we're going to get forced to play. And yours is an especially tough one.

• 1:10:18Jocko Willink?

  And yeah, look, you're right. But what can you do about that? Can you curl up into a ball on the couch and cry and wish it would go a different way? You can do that, but that's not going to help you. So as you said, the best thing you can do is say, okay, good.

• 1:10:35Jocko Willink?

  Let's move forward. And then I think, you know, if you want to pull the thread on that, it's, hold on a second, what is good about the situation that I'm in right now? I have to, you know, you, you have regret for the paths that you can't get on. So maybe you were gonna do a career or you're gonna have more kids or you're gonna, you know, travel, whatever it is. And all of a sudden you're looking around going up, no, I'm not going to be able to play those games. I'm stuck in this game.

• 1:11:06Jocko Willink?

  So what do we take away from that?

• 1:11:09Jocko Willink?

  For me, you know, um, the appreciation for what you do have

• 1:11:17Jocko Willink?

  is so powerful to think about. The fact that you've got this daughter who needs help and you are capable of giving her that help. And where would she be without you?

• 1:11:35Jocko Willink?

  And then the appreciation for other members of your family that have their health.

• 1:11:42Jocko Willink?

  And you know, I've, I've, I've had some hard conversations with kids over the years, you know, little warrior kids that are eight years old or 10 years old or whatever. And they're, and they're sick, they're facing legitimate

• 1:11:58Jocko Willink?

  debilitating diseases, like whether they've got cancer or they've got whatever, whatever debilitating disease they've got. And you know, when I talk to those kids,

• 1:12:09Jocko Willink?

  I always tell them, I give them a smile and I say, hey, listen, what you're going through right now, it's going to make you so tough, you're going to be able to do anything. And I feel, Jessica, that that's what you are going to experience is the effort that you put forth to play a game that you didn't, didn't want to play,

• 1:12:36Jocko Willink?

  to get thrown into a game that you didn't want to play, but you give that game, everything you got. I think that will give you massive mental strength in life and something that I believe will probably benefit you and if you have the

• 1:12:54Jocko Willink?

  ability.

• 1:12:57Jocko Willink?

  I think it'll actually help a lot of other people as you can pass on some of these lessons learned as we started off talking on this podcast about the fact that one of the most rewarding things and one of the best things that you can do as a human being is take your experiences and what you learn and pass them on other people. So I think that this experience that you're going through, that's so challenging, so brutal every single day, and yet you're playing that game to the best of your ability. I think there's, you're going to take so much away from that. It's going to give you an incredible opportunity to help others. So, stay strong, Jessica. Stay strong. You've got an awesome attitude.

• 1:13:45Jocko Willink?

  Next question is from Jonathan.

• 1:13:49Jocko Willink?

  "Hey Jaco, could you explain how to compete within your own team in order to benefit, benefit the organization? I work in construction, heavy equipment to be exact. I would like to figure out how to generate friendly competition amongst my coworkers in order to progress all of our skills and coherence?" Yeah. This is exactly what you said. You know, setting up friendly competitions to progress skills is a thing. And it's a good thing. And in the SEAL Teams, we did that with everything. Shooting, you did competitions, running, you're doing competition diving, you're doing competitions, parachute, everything you're doing is a competition. I'm going to land closer to the T. When you parachute, you land on a T. I'm gonna, you know, shoot this course of fire faster than you are. Like, everything's just a little competition.

• 1:14:30Jocko Willink?

  And it does, as you said, progresses your skills. And it's the same thing I see at all times with businesses, you know, the sales competition that's going on, or the operational turn times, or the cost to produce, we're going to, like, all these things, little competitions. So I think, you know, when you ask

• 1:14:50Jocko Willink?

  how to compete within your own team, what you do is you just set up fun.

• 1:14:57Jocko Willink?

  Competitions and you make sure that the competitions are fun and you make sure that they don't undermine the team because that can't happen where all of a sudden you know Echo against me and I decide I'm going to cheat or I decide I'm not going to give Echo the key piece of information. Oh, I had a sales call and I ran into this objection, but I'm not going to tell Echo how I handled this. So that way he won't surpass me. So make sure that your small competitions that you have are embedded and nested in a larger overall goal

• 1:15:35Jocko Willink?

  that everyone is a part of. So if Echo is competing against me in sales and we set up a competition between us two, we also want to set up a competition where our whole team is trying to sell X amount of whatever widgets. So even though we're competing, we also want to reach the overall goal. So that's what we're doing.

• 1:15:57Jocko Willink?

  Friendly competition is good. You have to make sure as a leader, it doesn't turn into unfriendly competition. He says, another question I have is when do you know you're being over competitive and souring relationships in your family, friends and work groups? Again, the answer is in the question. You know, you know, you're being over competitive when you make people mad. And my guess is Jonathan, that you like to compete, you like to get things going, you like to get, you get fuel, fuel off that, which probably if that's the way you roll, there's, it's going to piss some people off. And so my, my assumption is that you like to compete, you like to win, you do this often, and I would, because you have, and if I'm, you

• 1:16:41Jocko Willink?

  know, I could be wrong, but if you have that, if that's your innate nature, then let's just lean towards building relationships instead of competing all the time. Okay. Cause I can, I can see just by now that I see both these questions, you're probably like the super like hype competitive, like that W on the scoreboard. But if that's your nature, then be careful of it. We always have to be careful of our own tendencies. I have a tendency to be very hands off from a leadership perspective and I have to pay attention to that because otherwise I'll just like, yeah, you guys do whatever you want. I have to pay enough attention to that. Hey, let me check in. Let me make sure we're going in the right direction. So you have to be aware of your tendency, which it seems like

• 1:17:24Jocko Willink?

  your tendency is hyper competitive. Be careful. Ryan Dial says, often in a game, you can find yourself in a hopeless situation. Say fourth quarter down 56 points. Um, that situation, oh, in that situation, how do you find the fortitude to keep fighting back even with the acceptance of knowing and owning that your mistakes got you there? Well, what are my options? We're down fourth quarter, we're down by 56. What are my, what are my options? Lay down? And quit? No. I mean, well, okay, it is an option, but I would not take that option. I would fight.

• 1:18:05Jocko Willink?

  And in these situations where you're gonna lose, fighting is winning. That's the best you're gonna get. That's the best you're gonna get. Is to go out on your shield. Now, listen, that's, we're talking football. If you're in a situation where you're, where we're talking a big game, we're talking life, we're talking, and you made some mistakes, well, what adjustments can we make? How can we rebuild? How do we take ownership of whatever we did that was wrong? And get it back together and us, and, and put together some semblance of forward positive

• 1:18:49Jocko Willink?

  motion? You know, like we, we brought up some pretty horrible examples earlier. Uh, you freaking got a DUI, you crashed, you, you freaking killed somebody, killed a kid on a bicycle, right? You're, that's, you're losing. So what are you gonna do? What you're gonna do is the best you can. You know, that's what you're gonna do. Obviously, you're never gonna drink again. Obviously, you're gonna spend a bunch of time donating your time and efforts to help solve the problem of drunk driving and going to talk to schools and you're gonna do a bunch of things as repentance for this horrible thing that you did. That's the best you can do.

• 1:19:30Jocko Willink?

  But we're not giving up. See, that's, that's the key point here. We're not giving up. We're not quitting. We're not saying I did this horrible thing and now I quit. No, we're never saying that. It's unacceptable. It's unacceptable. It's unacceptable in any situation to say, you know what, I just give up on life. No, unacceptable.

• 1:19:54Jocko Willink?

  I put myself in a bad situation. I take ownership of it. I'm gonna make forward progress.

• 1:20:00Jocko Willink?

  That's what we're doing.

• 1:20:03Jocko Willink?

  So, keep fighting, Ryan.

• 1:20:07Jocko Willink?

  We got Joe. Life is a game, should be a high school class. What would you include in such a class? I didn't learn that everything is a game until I was in my late twenties when I realized how much I'd screwed up the beginning of my career. Managers were selected day 100. I started day 500.

• 1:20:25Jocko Willink?

  You know, if I was gonna try and teach this to a high school kids, I'd probably do something like what we did on these podcasts. I'd clean it up, obviously, and, and narrow it down, but this isn't that complicated. And if I was gonna be in a high school class, I would teach it using things that people, that they can relate to, right? So you talk about playing a game with your parents. You know, I've had that conversation, I had that conversation with my kids. You know, when they're interacting with their mom and things aren't going that great when they're going through that teenage, whatever, 13, 14 years old, I'm like, this is a game. And right now you're losing because you're grounded, or right now you're losing because you're, you've got animosity. So you're losing. This is a game. You know what you have to do to win the game? Be nice. Show respect. And then all of a sudden, you won't, you can pretty much do whatever you want.

• 1:21:12Jocko Willink?

  Sports, school, like, oh, my teacher sucks. Okay, so what are you gonna do? Misbehave in class? Get a, get, you know, don't turn in your homework, get a bad grade. How's that help? Or do you just, hey, my teacher sucks? Okay, well, form a good relationship with your teacher. Be nice to them. Try and help out. Do your homework assignments. That's the way you create the minimum friction, even though, no one wants to hear that either, by the way.

• 1:21:40Jocko Willink?

  Teacher doesn't even care if we learn. Okay, so you're just gonna sit in the back and throw spitball, shoot spitballs at the blackboard, right?

• 1:21:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:47Jocko Willink?

  Is that a thing anymore?

• 1:21:48Speaker 01

  Oh, I don't know.

• 1:21:49Jocko Willink?

  That was kinda like a thing. Spitballs must still be a thing, right?

• 1:21:54Speaker 01

  I don't know, man. I don't hear much about spitballs nowadays.

• 1:21:58Speaker 01

  But I don't know. It's been a long time.

• 1:21:59Jocko Willink?

  There's probably like other things to do.

• 1:22:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:01Jocko Willink?

  Were spitballs a thing in your high school?

• 1:22:03Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, here and there. What, wait, what's a spitball? Is that the straw?

• 1:22:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, you pretty much take a piece of paper, chew it in your mouth, it's covered with spit, you put it in a straw or whatever.

• 1:22:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:14Jocko Willink?

  It like hits the chalkboard.

• 1:22:15Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:22:16Jocko Willink?

  Where? Who did that?

• 1:22:17Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. I don't think I'd ever do it in the class, but you know, outside or whatever.

• 1:22:22Jocko Willink?

  Uh, so that's what you're gonna do. Shoot spitballs at the blackboard, cause problems. Like, how is that helping? What does that do? It's gonna make your life worse. You're gonna get in trouble, get detention, get a bad grade, all those other crap's gonna happen. Also, you can play the game. Teacher doesn't care if you pass? Cool. Whatever.

• 1:22:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a big one when you deal with, when you're dealing with other people. Like a teacher, whatever. Especially when they're supposed to be nice in your mind or whatever. So, tell you a quick story. So, in my kid's school, there's a crossing guard lady. She's not very nice. She's actually mean.

• 1:22:59Jocko Willink?

  That's why she's hired.

• 1:23:02Speaker 01

  So, this is the kind, she's mean, she's dramatic, she's like, and so she'll just yell at you in front of everybody if you don't like it, if you don't step perfectly on the cross, uh, the crosswalk or, you know, like that kind of stuff.

• 1:23:13Jocko Willink?

  She's yelling at you?

• 1:23:14Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, everybody. She, she, she said she was gonna call the police on me. So, here.

• 1:23:18Jocko Willink?

  Dang, bro. So, you need to play the game, dude.

• 1:23:21Speaker 01

  This is my early.

• 1:23:22Jocko Willink?

  What's wrong with you, bro?

• 1:23:23Speaker 01

  This is my early experience, right? So, me, bro, I don't care about any crossguard lady at all. I don't care. Like, you don't care who she's yelling at, bro, I don't care. Um, so, I'm like, I'm playing, I'm gonna drop off my kids for, to school. And I'm coming from this opposite direction as like we would normal, normally come. And she's running the crosswalk, she's got her, you know, her helpers or whatever. So, I come, I pull on the side of the road in an quote-unquote unauthorized drop-off spot.

• 1:23:48Jocko Willink?

  You're that guy?

• 1:23:49Speaker 01

  I'm that guy. I don't care. Bro, I'm dropping off my kids. I don't care what this lady says, right?

• 1:23:53Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:23:54Speaker 01

  So, I'm gonna.

• 1:23:56Jocko Willink?

  I hope you got, I hope you got the cops called on you.

• 1:23:59Speaker 01

  She like looked at me, right? She seen me, boom, obviously. It's like huge violation in her world. And then, so she starts yelling from where she is, charging over to me. And I'm in the car and. Right, this is, and here's the thing, me, my wife is like early on, me, my wife and the kids in the car. So she comes up, rolls up to my window and is like yelling at me, this is not the spot. Um, like, like it was a massive personal violation to her. Not the spot, I'm gonna call the cops and um, have them come over here and like arrest you for like, like parking here and doing all this stuff, right? Like outlandish stuff.

• 1:24:34Jocko Willink?

  Damn.

• 1:24:37Speaker 01

  And again, Brad, I don't, I don't care about this lady. So, so ultimately it's kind of funny because it's like, bruh, first off, you're not gonna call the cops. We all know that. And even if you did call the cops, the cops would be like, what do you want me to come over there for? Who's this, the crossing guard lady from up the road? So anyway, so my kids are like, they don't know what to do. They're like getting out all quick and trying to run away. You know, my wife's like, kind of like, oh man, shoot, that sucks, you know, kind of thing. And I'm, and I'm kind of like, I'm not laughing, but I'm like, all right, lady, I, I get it. You know, we shouldn't do this. I get it, right? But my natural instinct is be like, ah, screw that lady, right? Because she's yelling at everybody. Everyone doesn't like her because she's so mean, right? So later on, um, I, I kind of learned the protocol. I'm like, oh, I see what this lady's doing. Like, she's going about it all wrong, for sure.

• 1:25:20Speaker 01

  But, you know, she's a salty old lady, this crossing guard. So I'm thinking, huh? And my daughter is super nice to everybody. Like, she's super, she like likes everyone, super nice. So I'm thinking, she's like, oh my gosh, you know, the misses, and she has a name, I don't want to bust out her name, but um, crossing guard lady, like she's so intimidating and all this stuff. I was like, hey, we should, I'm thinking this to myself too, before I told it to her. Um, we should be nice to that crossing guard lady. Just to see what happens, because no one's nice to her. And there's no reason for anyone ever to be nice, because she's yelling at everybody. So it's like, why would someone get yelled at and be like, oh, and genuinely be nice to this person?

• 1:25:54Jocko Willink?

  So you went, you told your daughter, we should be nice to her?

• 1:25:57Speaker 01

  Yep. So I thought about it for, you know, a week or whatever. And then I came up with that. I was like, oh, wait a second. This is like, no one's, she's so mean that she made everyone else be mean back to her, which fuels her meanness, you know? So it's like, huh, I was like, hey, we're gonna be nicer. We're gonna follow all her rules too. I don't care how bad of a mood she's in, like, we're gonna be nice. Bruh, like magic. The moment my daughter is like, oh, hi, hi, good morning, or whatever. She'd be like, oh, hi. And so I've literally watched her and even even I do it. I she I know she oh, I don't know. Maybe she doesn't remember me. The guy she's gonna call the cops on. I'm sure she tells that to everybody, but whatever. She's super nice to me now. Like when I walk or whatever. And again, like magic, I will. I literally witness this all the time where she's like, people are, you know,

• 1:26:40Speaker 01

  not stepping in the crosswalk correctly, or or the car like, you know, didn't stop perfectly on the line or whatever. She's literally yelling at everyone. Like she's in the worst mood. And then we walk up and she's like, she's she's smiling. Oh, big. Oh, hi. Good morning. Thank you, sir. Calls me, sir. Calls me, sir. Nobody calls me, sir. She calls me, sir. The meanest crossing guard lady I've ever witnessed in my whole life calls me, sir. Only because all because we're just.

• 1:27:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you treat people with respect and be nice to them. That goes a long way, man. It really does.

• 1:27:08Speaker 01

  It's crazy, man.

• 1:27:09Jocko Willink?

  Follow the little stupid rules, you know, like it's no big deal.

• 1:27:12Speaker 01

  And that was what really stood out too. I was like, bro, following these rules actually isn't even that hard. And quite frankly, I kind of see your point.

• 1:27:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah. Well, she's trying to protect these kids, bro.

• 1:27:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. What if everyone just followed the rules? Not attitude, no attitude, whatever. Just what if everyone just automatically follows? Bro, you know how smooth this morning system would be? You know, she's like, brother, this lady has a point. Just because she's yelling doesn't make her wrong, you know? So anyway, yeah, but um, again, like the instinct is like, oh, screw this lady. How dare her yell at me and all the parents of these children trying to get it. And we're like, why are you yelling at everyone? Kind of a thing. But no, man.

• 1:27:48Jocko Willink?

  And her perspective, you know, she's like worried about the kids, trying to get people and people just totally disrespecting her. I mean, like, kind of like you were. You're like, we call the cops on me. Luckily, you didn't say that, right? Laughing at her.

• 1:28:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly right.

• 1:28:03Jocko Willink?

  So you kind of like got to see her perspective a little bit. It's definitely a good move there. Echo Charles, you are commended and although I would have liked to see you get arrested.

• 1:28:14Jocko Willink?

  Uh, next question is from Noah. Is there an entrance exit strategy to enter and withdraw from one of life's games? Or is it quite literally get in, get out? Example, I want to start a company. Should I do research and get all my data before starting or go in guns blazing?

• 1:28:31Jocko Willink?

  Hey Noah, it isn't get all the data and research and it isn't guns blazing. Those are extremes. And we don't recommend extremes. We recommend iterative decision-making. We recommend small steps and then pay attention to the feedback that you get. So, there you go. No big deal. Want to get out of a game? Cool. You want to get into a different game? Alright. Just don't do it on a whim. Come up with a plan, put it together, make a first step, assess what you got, make another step. That's what we're doing. Next question is from David and it says, work, relationship,

• 1:29:16Jocko Willink?

  etc. As a game causes a shift in our chemistry. We think of playing games as fun. So relating to work as a game creates a context for who we are being when we play the game. Fun, excitement, connection, etc. Maybe playing the game is more powerful than winning. Well, yeah, I like that. Um, and that's part of it. You know, we've answered some question on the other podcast is when something sucks, how do you make it into a game? So it's fun. You're exactly right. Fun and connection and excitement are all good. That's one reason to train that jujitsu, right?

• 1:29:52Jocko Willink?

  So playing, playing is part of the game and part of the fun. And seeing things as a game can make things fun, even when they might not be fun. So, I agree. Uh, Kyle's here, here says, are there any games of universal importance, meaning not only to specific groups or circles, when one walks away? I think we'd have to go with health and fitness. I think we'd have to go with teamwork and helping other people. I think we'd have to go with integrity. Right? Is integrity a game? Yeah, it is. Cause it's something that you're trying to uphold your integrity as a person. Telling the truth, keeping your word. Is integrity more important than winning? Yes, it is.

• 1:30:38Jocko Willink?

  Um, well, at least I guess for me it is for some people they'd rather win, you know, make more money or get a, get a reward or an award rather than,

• 1:30:52Jocko Willink?

  rather than keep their integrity. But I believe that the long game, long game supports integrity. Um, so,

• 1:31:01Jocko Willink?

  and I think people that are out for themselves,

• 1:31:06Jocko Willink?

  universally lose in the end. And we've kind of talked about that on this podcast. So yeah, those are some of the ones I can think of that are kind of universal games. Helping other people, keeping your health in order, keeping your integrity. I think those are universal.

• 1:31:22Jocko Willink?

  Um, Artie says, do you ever burn bridges when playing the game? And if you do, how do you act going forward if you see the persons involved or even need to work with them again? Well, no, that's why I don't burn bridges. So I don't burn bridges because what, look, what, how is it going to help me to burn bridges? Or let me say I never burn bridges, but I very rarely burn a bridge.

• 1:31:47Jocko Willink?

  Very rarely burn a bridge. In fact, it's hard for me to, I don't think I've burned any bridges. I'm, I'm sure I could sit here and for a half an hour and think about, you know, somebody that did something at some point and like, yeah, you know what? That's not happening anymore. Um,

• 1:32:03Jocko Willink?

  we had a company at Echelon Front that wanted to work with me and they made a product that I did not think is a good product for humanity. And they, we did a call with them or no, I said, no. And then they said, please do a call with us. We really want to just, we really want to talk to you. And I said, okay. And so I was like, finally relented and said, okay, I'll do a call with you. And then they were pitching me and pitching me and pitching me and I finally said, hey, I do not think that your product will help people.

• 1:32:35Jocko Willink?

  And in fact, I think your product hurts people and therefore I will not be doing anything to help you share or spread your product to the world.

• 1:32:46Jocko Willink?

  And

• 1:32:48Jocko Willink?

  They kind of got quiet. And then they were like, oh, we appreciate you know, your honest feedback. And then Jamie, we got it because Jamie was on the call. And Jamie's like, I've never seen you do that before. And I was like, yeah, because it was kind of also, they weren't really getting the message. I was like, yeah, I just know this is not, you know, something we want to get involved in. And then they're like, yeah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And finally, I just said, hey, I do not like what your product does in the world.

• 1:33:14Speaker 01

  Are you at liberty to say what the product is?

• 1:33:16Jocko Willink?

  I don't want to say it's not hard to figure out. You know, it's something that's not healthy and kind of addictive. So matter of fact, not kind of something that's not good for people and addictive for people. And at the, with really no benefits whatsoever, you know? So that was the type of product that it was.

• 1:33:41Jocko Willink?

  So I'm not going to generally, no, I'm definitely trying not to burn bridges. And it's for the exact reason, like you burn a bridge today, how do you know what's going to hold in the future? And why, what benefit do you get from it? You don't get any benefit from it. Burning bridges with people. Try and treat people with respect, try and be nice to them. It's, it's just better for you, it's better for them, it's better for the world. So I'm trying not to burn bridges. Uh, Samuel says, what do you think sets the rules and manufactures the game? What do you think about God of the Bible who ordains and decrees all things?

• 1:34:21Jocko Willink?

  Quote, the sum of your word is truth and every one of your righteous rules endures forever. End quote. You know, this is something that we covered on, I think of the, one of the first podcasts is. And that look, the rules that we follow for the game, or the, the rules of the game come from different places depending on who you are. And if you, if you're following the, the rules from the Bible, look, much of Judeo, Judeo-Christian society gets its rules from the Bible. So certainly that has a huge influence on things, but there's other parts of the world. There's other, there's other parts of this country where people get their rules for different games from different things.

• 1:35:06Jocko Willink?

  So I think the question is actually not who do I think sets the rules of the game is who do you think sets the rules for the game that you're playing and what rules do you choose to follow?

• 1:35:20Jocko Willink?

  So Nate says, would love to hear you outline the games ecosystems you're currently engaged in, go deep on one or two. We go deep on all the games I'm involved in all the time. What games are we in? Jiu Jitsu, right? Trying to improve, trying to get better, trying to evolve. That's a game, man. We need to bring back the grounded podcast. Let's just start talking about Jiu Jitsu because man is deep. There's so much going on in the Jiu Jitsu world. Jaco Fuel, we got Jaco Fuel. That's a game involved in, right? We've got, we're making product, we're distributing the product all over the country, we're going into retail, we're doing direct to consumers, all those things happening, we're growing very rapidly.

• 1:35:59Jocko Willink?

  Very cool game to be in, but it's a game. There's mistakes you can make on the board. You can get, what is it? A return to go. Do not pass go. No, do not go to jail. Don't pass go. You know, there's like, there's like things you can land on, on the board. Yeah, sure. The retail board. Like there's right now, uh, one of the big companies, one of the just giant billion dollar companies is going into some retail places that we're in and buying out the shelf space for millions of dollars. So that's the game we're in. So we're playing against, you know, players that are bigger and stronger than us.

• 1:36:43Jocko Willink?

  Players that are bigger and stronger than us, just like Jiu Jitsu. You're going to go against people that are bigger and stronger than you. Just like war, you might have to fight an enemy that's bigger and stronger than you. So we have to maneuver and we might lose a battle here and there. We might lose a battle to a big, strong person that's going to put, they're going to expend millions of dollars to take some of our shelf space away. Okay. Okay. We'll, we'll make an adjustment. What are we going to do? So there's a game that's being played. Ashlam Front.

• 1:37:13Jocko Willink?

  We got, you know, Ashlam Front, we're doing a bunch of things at Ashlam Front.

• 1:37:19Jocko Willink?

  Origin, I mean, well, Echelon Front, what are we doing at Echelon Front? We got online training, right? That's a huge part of what we're doing right now because it's the most scalable way to share the lessons that we've learned about leadership and life. So, extremeownership.com, there you go. What are we doing? That's what we're doing. Are we still doing a bunch of other, you know, things? Yes, we are, but that's a part of the game that we're moving on right now. We're making moves. So that's what's happening. We've, we've made bad moves. Like we used a, a, a learning management system that was awkward to log into and had a weird pricing, the way you had to check out all the stuff. Those are bad moves. What do we do?

• 1:38:03Jocko Willink?

  Okay, yeah, that, that didn't work too well. There's a sunk cost. We spent a bunch of money on it and building it and it, oh, but it didn't work the way we needed it to do. Should we continue going down that path? Or do we say, you know what? That's not the, that's not the way it should be. It's negatively impacting the ability for us to get this information to people? Nope. Okay, we're going to rein, we're going to give away that money. That money's gone. Reinvest the money into a new platform. That's what we did. We just launched the new platform. This is, that's what's going on, right? This is all part of the game. Those, those are like, that's a classic example right there, right? We spent a bunch of money on a platform. The platform didn't do what we wanted it to do, the way we wanted it to do it. We tried, we failed, we tried, we failed.

• 1:38:47Jocko Willink?

  Eventually it's like, hey, this is not working, but we spent so much money. Yep, sunk cost. So let's just keep going? No. Cut our losses, new platform. Now all of a sudden we've got a platform, we can give parts of it away for free, we can, we can contact people, we can scale it in a way that wasn't possible with the other system. So this is all, this is all the game. It's all happening. Origin, man, the game at Origin is crazy. What we got going on there? You know, you're buying, we're buying millions of dollars worth of material. We know material that we don't weave, we buy. We buy it from American manufacturers. How long does it take to make? Right?

• 1:39:32Jocko Willink?

  If you want to sell a pair of jeans, you had to order that denim four or five months ago. So there's, just think about the logistics of that.

• 1:39:44Jocko Willink?

  So we've got to, and by the way, you pay somebody for denim

• 1:39:51Jocko Willink?

  four or five months ago, that cost you several million dollars. Well, you didn't make jeans for five months. You ordered it, you paid for it, and five months went by. Then you got the material, then you had to sew the jeans. There's another whatever month and now it's out to be in retail, to be sold. There's six months. Where'd you get a million, where'd you get 3.2 million dollars worth of material? What'd you do, where'd you get that money from? Well, that's money. It's not just sitting around.

• 1:40:23Jocko Willink?

  So that's what we're doing. This is all part of the game.

• 1:40:28Jocko Willink?

  So those are some games that we are involved in at this time.

• 1:40:35Jocko Willink?

  Mike Grayson says, you must know your opponent. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. Um, that's obviously a quote from the Bible, and uh, yes, 100% there's darkness in the world.

• 1:41:00Jocko Willink?

  And we have to fight it. You know, I, I fall victim sometimes to, if I talk about something one time, I feel like I said it. You know, like, okay, don't kind of say that again. Um, but obviously the darkness in the world is something I've talked a lot about. And maybe Mike hasn't been listening for that long, but I've talked a lot about the evil in the world and, and the fact that there is a war going on against evil. So, yes, this is correct.

• 1:41:32Jocko Willink?

  It feels, again, it feels a little bit inappropriate to call the evil of the world and fighting it a game, but it is essentially a game as well. They can, sometimes it wins a quarter, right? Sometimes it's up at the halftime.

• 1:41:47Jocko Willink?

  Zach says, why not use the term sport instead of game? Then he says, hell, the Latin word iocus also spelled jocus means joke, fun, sport.

• 1:42:02Jocko Willink?

  Jaco's jocus series on treating life objectively and with discipline to win with the rules. Okay, noted. Thank you, Zach. Going deep, Steven says Victor Frankl said, if you want success or fame, don't aim at it. They come naturally as a consequence of doing the right thing. How can we win without trying to win? This is actually something I totally agree with.

• 1:42:28Jocko Willink?

  If you focus on doing good.

• 1:42:32Jocko Willink?

  If you focus on supporting other people, if you feel, in business, if you focus on making a good product, if you focus on providing good service, if you focus on doing good work, if you focus on helping other people, the reward will come.

• 1:42:46Jocko Willink?

  The reward will come. So I agree with Victor Frankl. I say the same thing in leadership strategy and tactics about getting promoted. You want to get promoted? Don't think about how to get promoted, just go do awesome work.

• 1:43:00Jocko Willink?

  If you focus on getting promoted, everybody sees that you're focused on getting promoted. And when they see that you're focused on getting promoted, they don't like it. They're like, oh, Echo just wants to get promoted. That's why he's doing this. Let's undermine him. No.

• 1:43:14Jocko Willink?

  Just do the right thing. If you do the right thing for the right reasons.

• 1:43:20Jocko Willink?

  As Victor Frankl said, it will come. It will come naturally.

• 1:43:25Jocko Willink?

  There's a doctor here, Dr. Benjamin, says there's only two types of games, finite and infinite. Finite games are played within rules and are played to be won. Infinite games, the rules are played with and played to keep the game going, parify it. From James Carson. So we, we, we've talked about this before. The only thing I would say to the doctor here is, I don't know if it's useful to say there's only two types of games, and we talked about this already, but I won't go into it again. There's different degrees between finite and infinite, right? There's different numbers of rules and pliability of rules. And I think it's more important to understand that, yes, there are finite games at one end of the spectrum, and there's infinite games at the other end of the spectrum.

• 1:44:09Jocko Willink?

  And I think what matters most is that you understand that you're in a game, and the game that you're playing, and what you have to play, how you have to either abide by the rules, or leave the game, or go to a bigger game. But yes, good point, Dr. Benjamin. Jeremy says, how do I express this effectively to middle and high school students? Again, I would paraphrase what, what Echo and I talked about on these podcasts. You know, probably turn that into a one-page or a two-page outline. And then, like I said earlier, use examples that they can relate to, school, parents, sports, interaction between, you know, high school kids, that kind of stuff. Just use things that they can relate to. Little, you know, job at McDonald's or whatever.

• 1:44:53Jocko Willink?

  You gotta play the game. You know, I worked at Wendy's. Gotta play the game.

• 1:44:57Jocko Willink?

  So use things that they can relate to. Someone named Action Ishi.

• 1:45:04Jocko Willink?

  Says, someone else kind of said it, but what do you do when you need someone else to play the game with you and they don't want to? And this is kind of the whole, this whole series started off with

• 1:45:17Jocko Willink?

  Sarah Armstrong saying, be careful of relying on other people in the game, because you might be let down. So, so control your expectations. But you know, there's sometimes you need someone else to help you maneuver. Well, a good way to do this is how can you help them?

• 1:45:35Jocko Willink?

  If I want Echo to do something, how can I help him do it? How can I get Echo engaged? How can I, how can I minimize what I need from Echo? So I'm not counting on Echo in some huge way. And by the way, if I'm trying to get Echo to do something, am I doing it for the right reasons? If I'm just trying to get Echo to do something to benefit me, well, probably I'm actually not, I shouldn't be doing that. How is it gonna help him? And if I, if I'm doing, trying to get Echo to do something that's gonna help Echo, then Echo's much more likely to do it.

• 1:46:06Jocko Willink?

  So let's, let's keep that in mind. Let's make sure that the game we're playing is beneficial to the people that were trying to get to play with us.

• 1:46:15Jocko Willink?

  Or find out a way to win without them. Or find a game that, you know, you don't need to count on this person. Now, like Echo said earlier, you know, when it comes to like a workout buddy. If Echo's my workout buddy, but he's not showing up and he's lazy and he doesn't want to do this, the work. And I know it's gonna be beneficial if he does it, but he's not doing it. I gotta find someone else to play the game with me. Right? I mean, I'm gonna put a certain amount of effort. I'll send you the text in the morning. Hey, bro, we're here, we're getting ready to hit it. Where are you at? But I can't, can't, can't make that horse drink. So that's what I'd pay attention to there. Jer, Jacob says, under what circumstances is a room dedicated to the enemy positions and terrain becoming valuable?

• 1:46:58Jocko Willink?

  This was, uh, you know, this is like a terrain model. You know what I'm talking about?

• 1:47:04Jocko Willink?

  The, the answer is when you, well, almost all the time, but when you can't see the terrain, when you can't just stand on a, like, and look out and say, oh, the enemy's over there and we can move over there. When you have multiple friendly and enemy units, you've got multiple things going on.

• 1:47:20Jocko Willink?

  It's, oh, it's, you know, there's just gonna be people that vis, that understand things visually better than through words. So basically, if you can, anytime you can put things in a visual representation, it's gonna be helpful. Now, you don't need this, a room dedicated, okay? Okay, if you're in a massive, uh... Big operational campaign, maybe a room is needed.

• 1:47:46Jocko Willink?

  If you have a battalion plus Italian or more sized operation. Maybe you need some kind of room set up. I know when I did battalion operations with the army or the Marine Corps, they would pretty much set up a room and we'd put a big map on the floor with tape and put little building blocks to build, show buildings and all that. Very helpful. Yeah, but as like a platoon commander, I always, I, when we were going in the field, I'd carry this little, little box with like a little ribbon, couple of pieces of ribbon in it, a blue one, a red one, a brown one. And then some little, little squares of wood. These are like, kind of just shapes, little wood shapes, paper thin, not paper thin, but very thin wooden shapes, like the thickness of a credit card, basically.

• 1:48:30Jocko Willink?

  Little shapes, you'd be like, oh, here's a building, here's a river. Here's, and then I had little, again, little shapes that were labeled as the different people in a platoon. Or fire teams in a platoon. So you could really quickly, in the field, break this thing out and I could do a quick terrain model. So, yes.

• 1:48:48Jocko Willink?

  I don't know what this has to do with the game, but there we go. We answered the question. Frank T. Tank.

• 1:48:55Jocko Willink?

  Frank the Tank says, although I believe that life is a game, it's not very popular idea for my wife. She feels that make, that makes her and the family pieces to be moved around a board. How would you address that? Okay, I would not call it, she doesn't like it. I wouldn't call it a game. I would call it a life. I would call it a journey. I would call it a mission or a voyage or whatever, right? Hey, this is our mission. Our mission. Not, I'm playing a game and you're on the, no. This is our mission. We're working together. We're a team. And guess what? On the chessboard or on the team, on the football field, we all got a job. We gotta work together to win. I wouldn't get caught up in the terminology of trying to call this game. In fact, I'd say, well, what do you think life is? And she'd say, I think it's more like a.

• 1:49:36Jocko Willink?

  Like, uh, uh, what would, what would not be ga- what could we not turn into a game? I think it's a play.

• 1:49:43Speaker 01

  Play.

• 1:49:44Jocko Willink?

  I think it's a play. Oh, yeah, I agree. And so let's, you know, we can shape the outcome of the play and we all got roles in the play and we gotta listen to the director and we gotta, you know what I mean? So whatever, just, just make it work, bro. Don't get stuck on terminology.

• 1:49:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, cuz, well, that one's a, that's a, this sticks out to me a little bit because that's true where, you know, we get stuck on terminology. Where, um, like the game sounds like it's not serious. That's what, that's why it's like, hey, you think life is a game?

• 1:50:13Jocko Willink?

  There was immediate objections to the term game of life is a game. There's immediate objections of, it's not a game.

• 1:50:18Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:50:19Jocko Willink?

  And we addressed that on the first podcast like out of the gate.

• 1:50:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:22Jocko Willink?

  And this is the same situation, but we don't want to make our wife mad, you know?

• 1:50:28Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:50:28Jocko Willink?

  You're losing the game if you do that.

• 1:50:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, you gotta step back, you got scored on for sure. And, but, and keep in mind too, though, where they were, even if I say the word triggered, that'll trigger due to terminology, but nonetheless, if, if your wife is triggered by the word game in reference to life, right? Like, you know, keep in mind that don't be equally as stuck to your terms.

• 1:50:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:53Speaker 01

  Cause I made that mistake before where, and this wasn't with my wife, it was with my friend that was like, remember, remember Susanna?

• 1:50:59Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 1:50:59Speaker 01

  The paddler?

• 1:51:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:01Speaker 01

  So we, we, we'd hang out and stuff and we'd get into little debates, whatever. And I don't know, we were talking about like payoffs, right? Where it's like, hey, you wouldn't like, you know, the idea of being, uh, selfless?

• 1:51:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:14Speaker 01

  Is, can always be circled around to having a payoff for yourself, right?

• 1:51:19Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 1:51:19Speaker 01

  So we were talking about that, that concept, right? Where it's like, hey, can you really find something that's truly selfless? You know, cuz you, and I said, you always are getting some sort of a payoff. And then she hate, did not like the word payoff cuz it sounds like money, you know, like, she was like, no, there's no payoff, there's no payoff. And I was like, no, think about it. And I kept using the word payoff, not realizing, oh, she didn't like the word payoff. But if I change it to something else, which I didn't, by the way, reward, yeah, something even reward benefit, those all sound selfish payoff, but some if or just say, uh, and I didn't say this, by the way, but me being way older now, maybe say something along the lines of um,

• 1:52:03Speaker 01

  uh, we appreciate the greater good or something like that, you know, um, then yeah, perfect. But it was the same, the exact same thing, you know, but so let me not be a stuck on my word too. If they don't like that word, don't think that, no, no, no, this is the, the best word for it. Don't think that be like, hey, okay, let me think of it like how you said, think of a term or expression. That's a little bit more, more your speed for sure, while still understanding what I'm talking about.

• 1:52:28Jocko Willink?

  Don't get caught up.

• 1:52:29Speaker 01

  Gotta watch out for that.

• 1:52:31Jocko Willink?

  What happens at Ashlam Front, you know, people like covering moves like um, uh, war.

• 1:52:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:35Jocko Willink?

  Oh, cool. Just call it teamwork then.

• 1:52:37Speaker 01

  Gunfighting.

• 1:52:38Jocko Willink?

  Call it mutually support. Yeah, it's we don't care.

• 1:52:40Speaker 01

  Hey, the other day you got, you got caught up in that just for a second.

• 1:52:43Jocko Willink?

  Hmm. What was it?

• 1:52:44Speaker 01

  Uh, train. When I said, when you said your wife, something and I said, oh, you trained her and you said, oh, she's not a dog. And I was about to be like, whoa, object, but we had a podcast, but think about it. Train. Yeah, you train your dog, but you also train yourself in jujitsu. You also train yourself in speaking or not yourself, but you know.

• 1:53:01Jocko Willink?

  That, but what you said didn't work for that scenario.

• 1:53:05Speaker 01

  No, it worked. Anytime you think of terms in, and I don't know, maybe it did, maybe it didn't, but.

• 1:53:10Jocko Willink?

  Okay. Well, you can go tell my wife then that she's well trained by me and see how that works out for you. You tell me that's a good word for that, for that context.

• 1:53:16Speaker 01

  That's the exact thing we're talking about. I did, I wasn't talking to you.

• 1:53:20Jocko Willink?

  You're hung up on this shit right now. And Big H is about to get you unstuck.

• 1:53:27Speaker 01

  What, right now you're doing the right thing. You're like, you're kind, I mean, technically, given the circumstances as at this moment, you're doing the right thing. Like you're like, no, no.

• 1:53:36Jocko Willink?

  Hundred percent.

• 1:53:37Speaker 01

  And I'm doing the exact thing that I said not to do where it's like, uh, you use, who use trained? Me, I said train. You said, well, no, not train. She's not a dog, right? I should have just been, okay, yeah, yeah, you're right. You're right. Right? I should have, but I stuck with train because I'm like, no, no, technically this train and train's not a bad, you see what I'm saying?

• 1:53:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:54Speaker 01

  Train's not a bad word.

• 1:53:56Jocko Willink?

  Call them the terminology.

• 1:53:57Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:53:58Jocko Willink?

  Good to say, yeah, shrug your shoulders and find a different word.

• 1:54:00Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:54:00Jocko Willink?

  You know, have that thesaurus at hand.

• 1:54:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. Hell, yeah.

• 1:54:06Jocko Willink?

  John says, from the perspective of you and Echo, what do you think allows some people to identify the game at such a young age, late teens, early 20 compared to others? You know, it's interesting on this question is I, my immediate response was I thought to myself, okay, well, taking a step back and detaching, that allows you to see the game. And when you watch and when you observe that allows you to see the game, here's what I think is actually the most beneficial, having somebody explain it to you. You know, I think the amount of comments that we got on this podcast from people that were between the ages of, you know, 18 and 58 of saying like, damn, I wish I had known this. Yeah. So having somebody explain it to you, I think is the best way to learn it. And what's interesting about this is, you know how there's some things that get explained

• 1:54:51Jocko Willink?

  to you, but you really have to feel it for yourself before you believe it? This doesn't seem to be like that. This is one of those things where people go, yeah, you know, that's actually right. Yeah, that's, that makes sense. Like they see it, it's almost like the answer is right there. And then as soon as they, it gets revealed, they go, oh yeah, that's correct. So that's what I think. I think, yes, detaching is a good way to see it. Taking a step back and watching and observing is all good, but having someone explain it to you, when some, you know, salty old chief says, hey, this is just a game, boy, you're like, all right, cool. So those are my answers there. Tamir says, two, great two podcasts, still not fully clear. Most people want the same games. Make good money via good job, be healthy, have a good family, have freedom. How does

• 1:55:36Jocko Willink?

  knowing the game help with this? Why do, why do most people struggle? Well, it's because even though people want to make good money, they want a good job, they want to be healthy, that when they don't, when they just see those things as, as places that they want to be, it's like if you pulled up a, a computer and said, you know, want to go to a good ski mountain, and it just showed you a picture of a good ski mountain. Everybody, if you ski, you want to go there. Okay, cool. I want to go there.

• 1:56:10Jocko Willink?

  Doesn't help you at all. You don't know what the name of it is. You don't know. So that's what happens. People, of course, I want to go to good ski area, but I don't know how to get there. I don't know how much it costs. I don't know what it takes to get there. I don't know where I'm gonna stay when I'm there. All those things. So when you look at making money, look, you just see, if I showed you a bank account, hey, Echo, here's a bank account with a million dollars in it. You're like, hell, yeah, I want that. Okay, cool. Later. I didn't help you at all. If I say, okay, here's what you gotta do. Here's some things to become financially secure. You want to invest your money in this way. You want to save this type of money. You want to not waste your money on these things over here. Like, I start, those are the rules. All of a sudden, you see it as a game. Same thing with relationships. Oh, you want to marry someone that you have a good temperament that complements each other. All those things. So there's rules to these games.

• 1:56:54Jocko Willink?

  And when people don't see it as a game, and they only see these goals.

• 1:56:59Jocko Willink?

  See, people don't, he says people want the same game. No, they want the same rewards. Everybody wants a lot of money. Everybody wants a good job. Everybody wants to be healthy. Everybody wants a good family. Everyone wants freedom. Those aren't the games. Those are the rewards of the games. When you realize it's a game, that's when you start putting structure around it. That's when you start figuring out what the rules are and how you can move forward. So, that's my answer. Tamir.

• 1:57:22Speaker 01

  And that's not to mention that these things that he listed look different for everybody.

• 1:57:26Jocko Willink?

  That is true.

• 1:57:27Speaker 01

  So yeah, if you shed, if you shine a light on the whole, the whole game as it exists, and that you're a player in that game, you can make your specific moves based on what these things look like for you.

• 1:57:41Jocko Willink?

  We got a few more here. Benjamin Miller. How have you used the game to further or begin your entrepreneurial endeavors? Again, what we just answered, you, you have an entrepreneurial idea. So you have an objective, but then what are the rules? What is the structure of that game? Right? Oh, I want to sell tea. Okay. Well, guess what? Do I just like, sit there and think about it? No, you figure out, okay, what's the game here? What's, what are the, there's different games you play. There's an Amazon game, right? There's direct to consumer. There's retail game. All those are different games, by the way. What are the rules on those games? What are the rules in retail? What are the rules on Amazon? What are the rules on direct to consumer? Those are all things you gotta figure out.

• 1:58:25Jocko Willink?

  So when you start to say, okay, here's the game that we're gonna play, we're gonna sell tea. Okay, cool. What do we have to do? How much do we need to produce? Okay, what are the avenues we can sell it? Okay. So yes, figuring out the rules, figuring out the objectives, figuring out what the competition is, seeing them and understanding them, putting them into a game is gonna make it easier for you. There's an anonymous question, doesn't viewing life as a game devalue it make you miss the deeper meaning? Yes, and again, this, we, we dress this out of the gate, depends on the definition of the game, of game that you use. So go back and listen to those first couple podcasts. We, we specifically talked about the fact that

• 1:59:06Jocko Willink?

  if, if you just use the term game like tic-tac-toe and monopoly and Candy Land, and that's what life is, it's devaluing it, but that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about the game as something with structure, something with rules, something with objectives, something that other people are playing, that's what we're talking about. Like the deepest meaning of game is when we, is when we use this. I bet that person just saw the little Twitter picture that I put up that said life is a game and said like, oh, you're devaluing it. Didn't actually listen to the podcast, so. Someone said the nickening.

• 1:59:39Jocko Willink?

  Life is life, one way to look at it as if it were a game, make no mistake, it's not. There are consequences, again, this is the same thing. If you listen to the podcast, you'll realize that this is just not what we were talking about. Dean says choosing what games you play is a liberating thought, but what about the games you don't have a choice to play in? Could failing to recognize you are playing certain games be a costly blind spot if failures in these areas would be ignored? Basic needs aside, example, Texco's. Yes, this is a hundred percent right. Anytime you're failing to recognize that you're in a game, you're gonna be, you're not gonna be playing that game correctly, and you stand to lose. And in some cases, you stand to lose a lot. So, so please be careful that.

• 2:00:25Jocko Willink?

  Trent says, how do you decide if you're in the wrong game?

• 2:00:30Jocko Willink?

  And if you think you're in the wrong game, what do you do? I'm an attorney that's been practicing for one and a half years. Can't figure out if I actually hate it or I'm just getting used to it. All right, so let's detach. Let's think about the return on investment. This is, this is another one of those things where like, you know, that first year, I don't, I don't know much about being a lawyer. But I guarantee when you first start practicing, it takes you a lot longer to prepare for a case. Cause you don't know what you're doing and you don't have any assistance yet. And so you're, you know, for you to prepare for court tomorrow, it takes you nine hours today. You get a little bit more experience, you're like, oh yeah, I've done a case like this before. My assistant's going to handle that and all of a sudden it takes you two hours and you can go to jujitsu.

• 2:01:11Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 2:01:13Jocko Willink?

  Which, which is kind of what your boss is saying, like you're just getting used to it. Now I could be wrong and the life of the lawyer is just, you know, 14 hour days every day. No jujitsu, no working out, sitting in an office, which sucks. So I would detach. I would look at the return on investment. Right? Cause that's another thing is used to be like a lawyer. If you were a lawyer, you were going to make a shit ton of money until there was eight million, until everyone thought that. And then the, there's eight million lawyers. I don't know how many lawyers there are, but there's a lot of lawyers. There's, there's high supply, which means demand is lower, which means you can, it's harder to get those really good paying gigs. If you're a lawyer, you can, and you can get great gigs as a lawyer.

• 2:01:58Jocko Willink?

  One thing I know about lawyers that I know that are good lawyers, they love it.

• 2:02:04Jocko Willink?

  They love it. They love like looking at the case and figuring out and figure ways to maneuver and looking at a contract where they love it. They love doing it. They're like, I got something for you. They're like, hey, we, we're looking at this deal, boom, and they love it.

• 2:02:20Jocko Willink?

  So if I'm a little nervous when you say that you've been doing this and you kinda hate it, right? Like, uh, I was in the SEAL teams.

• 2:02:30Speaker 01

  You were?

• 2:02:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:02:32Jocko Willink?

  And, you know, if someone doesn't like

• 2:02:38Jocko Willink?

  humping with a ruck on. If that review don't like, if, in fact, let me, if you hate that, it's probably not a good job.

• 2:02:49Jocko Willink?

  You know what I'm saying?

• 2:02:49Speaker 01

  I do know.

• 2:02:50Jocko Willink?

  Like, I mean, that is like part of your job is to put a freaking heavy rucksack on and hump.

• 2:02:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:02:56Jocko Willink?

  Through, through the desert, through the woods, up the mountain, whatever. It sucks. And if you hate it, probably not a great job. So when you're a lawyer, and you gotta look through documents and you gotta pull up old precedences from the freaking whatever. And you don't love doing that. You don't love that little good gratification that you get when you pull a maneuver on the, on the other counsel.

• 2:03:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:24Jocko Willink?

  You know?

• 2:03:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:26Jocko Willink?

  That can be, it's probably not a great job for you. If you're one of those people that watched, uh, like law shows, right?

• 2:03:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:36Jocko Willink?

  And you loved watching those cases come together and all that stuff?

• 2:03:40Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 2:03:40Jocko Willink?

  And then you get to do that, seems like you'd be into it. But if you're like a year and a half into it, like I freaking hate this, I think I hate this.

• 2:03:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:47Jocko Willink?

  I'm just saying, bro. Now, listen, I would still get good enough at it that, that you start to get some momentum, right? Where you're like, okay, I can prepare these cases faster now and I got my assistant to help me out. And you, you can, you, you start going, okay. Now that I have an, you know, a, a, a assistant helping me and I know what I'm doing and I got a steady stream of clients and I'm setting up my days better. And I hate this. Then it's time to do some strategic thinking, figure out, again, going back to figuring out what, not just what your values are, but what you actually value. Cause there's some people, you know what, there's some people that um,

• 2:04:33Jocko Willink?

  that you, they wanna be like leader of the law world, right? That's what they wanna be. They wanna be the justice of the Supreme Court. Like, they wanna do that stuff. They're into it, man. They love being in that ecosystem. They love going to the, the country club. And everyone knows it's freaking Echo Charles, you know, he's got a big case.

• 2:04:53Jocko Willink?

  You know, there's people that love that.

• 2:04:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:04:55Jocko Willink?

  There's people that like, I'm a lawyer.

• 2:04:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:04:59Jocko Willink?

  So if that's where you're at, cool. If that's what you value, cool. If you're doing it for the money and you hate it, um, I'm gonna say, you might wanna try and figure out some kind of an exit strategy over the next few years. I won't rush anything. Don't get crazy, but start trying to figure something else out. You obviously got skills, you're a lawyer, you can write, you can read, you're good at interacting with people. You could do a lot of different things. But let's figure, let's, let's, um, what would be a good way of saying this? I was gonna say, finish the meal before you decide if you don't like it or not, but maybe it's more like,

• 2:05:32Jocko Willink?

  let's get good enough at it and make sure we spend enough time in it to do a real assessment. Like driving a car, I guess. You know, you might get in a car and you're like, you know, you go to start the car and the key's not, doesn't even have a key anymore, by the way. It's got like a button and the button's not where you think it is and so you're like, man, I don't like this car. Or you, you know, you turn to go to turn on the heat and it's like, where's the button? Right? Or when you switch from Apple to Mac or Mac to Apple. And you're like, oh, this freaking Apple sucks, or oh, this Microsoft sucks. In Apple, you just drag the file over. Well, here you just right-click it. You know what I mean? So you gotta do it for long enough that you actually can do a real assessment.

• 2:06:16Jocko Willink?

  And you're not just frustrated about the thing.

• 2:06:21Speaker 01

  You you mentioned that eat finishing the meal thing. So I thought where in

• 2:06:26Jocko Willink?

  That's a bad example because like for for me, I can tell I don't need to finish the meal, bro. I take one bite. I'm like, this sucks. I'm out.

• 2:06:34Speaker 01

  But I mean, if you shift the analogy.

• 2:06:35Jocko Willink?

  Matter of fact, if I smell it, I'm kind of like.

• 2:06:38Speaker 01

  You just know.

• 2:06:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, makes it well. Then again, I don't know. Parmesan cheese smells real bad, but tastes real good.

• 2:06:45Jocko Willink?

  Does it smell bad?

• 2:06:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a small Parmesan cheese. Anyway, so think like this, I'll, I think anyway, according to all some of some, not a lot. Some of the lawyers that I've known and heard from, people who don't like it, thought they did or whatever. It's like, uh, consider, you know, crab, you you don't eat seafood, though.

• 2:07:03Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 2:07:04Speaker 01

  Okay, so crab, right? King crab or whatever colossal king crab's good if you like it. It's really good. So it's a good idea. Well, let's have crab for dinner, right? Bring it home. They serve the crab. It's like the crab has shells for every crab leg. You got to take off the shell and that's a pain in the ass. Unless you know the technique and it's like, or you expected that and you know, or whatever. But if you're not expecting all that, you're like, probably it's not even worth it. Like all I saw was the delicious crab on the commercial, you know, and then now the the reality of it, there's all this freaking work involved in it that I wasn't ready for. I wasn't anticipating. And the lawyer thing is the same thing where it's like, bro, I wasn't anticipating 12 hours a day, seven days. I wasn't anticipating all this. And only I thought I was gonna be freaking a few good men, Tom Cruise, freaking you can't handle the truth, all this stuff.

• 2:07:49Speaker 01

  Meanwhile, like literally 99.9% of my time is spent in office, reading stuff. Going back to the books that I studied in law school or whatever, coming back to the case and the it's all paperwork. Like the whole thing is this paper. I didn't sign up for this, just like the crab shells. But I didn't know we had to crack every single shell and then meticulously get the crab meat out. Then you can have a small, little morsel of crab.

• 2:08:13Jocko Willink?

  But let's face it, there's some people that kind of get into that crab thing and they do it well and like, you know, up in Maine, people like showing you how to do the lobster right. Like, oh, you want to take the claw and break it over here and they're fired up about that.

• 2:08:25Speaker 01

  Agree. And that's and that's why I use the crab because I'm into that, the technique to get the crab out where you can get it out without like breaking it apart. Like there's technique to that and there's a payoff to that, too.

• 2:08:35Jocko Willink?

  And you kind of enjoy that little that little game.

• 2:08:38Speaker 01

  Kind of like a little fun game. Exactly right. And if you knew that that's involved in the whole process, it's like you're not surprised or blindsided by it. So it's like, yeah, you're embracing it. Boom. I love crab. Hell, yeah. Crab for dinner tonight. Just like some people like hell yeah lawyer all day.

• 2:08:52Jocko Willink?

  You can name this podcast crab for dinner tonight.

• 2:08:54Speaker 01

  Maybe I will.

• 2:08:56Jocko Willink?

  All right, last question, and this will close out the game for now. It says, uh, it's from Nick. How do you handle losing the game? For example, didn't get promotion. Company didn't take off. Bad investment. Does your game change? I think we all know the answer to this one. Didn't get the promotion. Company didn't go the way I wanted it to. Made a bad investment. Good. What did I learn? And what am I gonna do going forward? I just got better at the game. I just got better at the game. Didn't get promoted? Cool, I just got better. Cause now I can figure out why I didn't get promoted. Company didn't take off?

• 2:09:39Jocko Willink?

  Cool, I learned some, something about how and why this went down. And I won't make that mistake again. Bad investment? Great. Great. Now I know to be a little bit more methodical.

• 2:09:54Jocko Willink?

  So that's what I'm doing when I lose a game.

• 2:09:59Jocko Willink?

  Ah, and that's that. For now, on the game. Man, that went a lot. There's four podcasts about the game. That's a lot.

• 2:10:08Speaker 01

  Went deep.

• 2:10:08Jocko Willink?

  It's important though.

• 2:10:09Speaker 01

  I wouldn't look at these like, I would look at them. What he's talking about anyway is setbacks more so than losing the game, you know, like not getting a promotion in the, in the whole game of life. Yeah, that's a, that's a setback.

• 2:10:20Jocko Willink?

  Point, you got scored on.

• 2:10:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. And actually even, yeah. Maybe if you got fired and now you have to find a new career, I think that's like getting scored on or whatever.

• 2:10:28Jocko Willink?

  You got, not just fired, but you got fired and you like got disbarred from that industry.

• 2:10:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's like you got scored on, but you can come back and you can totally be a winner.

• 2:10:38Jocko Willink?

  Depends on what game too, cause in a basketball game, you get scored on, it's not that big of a deal.

• 2:10:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:10:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. In football, it's a little bit, soccer, it's a big ass deal.

• 2:10:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's huge deal, bro.

• 2:10:45Jocko Willink?

  Right?

• 2:10:45Speaker 01

  Huge, yeah, it's true. So look at it as in terms of like, you know, man, there's a life and jujitsu is a really good one like that. Weightlifting is a really good example of that where it's like, bro, you're gonna take these little small L's. Like in the whole, in the whole. Grand scheme of things, probably every single day.

• 2:11:00Jocko Willink?

  You're losing.

• 2:11:01Speaker 01

  But then for every step back, it's like, man, if you can, and you gotta actively do this, where you gotta, if you can make, take that one step back into like a step and a half forward. Now you know, you know what that took to lose. You know what you did right, wrong, hopefully, if you're pursuing it. And boom, now you can make that step forward. Next time you get challenged with whatever challenges that devastated you before, whatever, now you're ready for that. You don't fall into that little pitfall and keep moving forward. But yeah, I wouldn't look at it as like, I lost.

• 2:11:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:11:28Speaker 01

  A lot, like, losing the game of life is like if you'd be considered by the general, your general community as a loser. So that's a good little test there.

• 2:11:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Which you're not. If you didn't get promoted, or you didn't do great on a freaking investment, no factor. All right. With that, um, for everybody, if you wanna, wanna get the physical game going, let's go Jaco Fuel, Jacofuel.com. Uh, you know, we got the, the ready to drink mulk, which I had one, got done training, which you did not participate in, by the way.

• 2:12:01Speaker 01

  No, no, that was.

• 2:12:02Jocko Willink?

  What was it? Why not?

• 2:12:04Speaker 01

  What's funny is like, I knew you were gonna ask me this.

• 2:12:05Jocko Willink?

  Nothing funny about it.

• 2:12:06Speaker 01

  No. It's interesting.

• 2:12:08Jocko Willink?

  Did you get a little bit disappointed when you saw that was kinda some good, real good training that you missed?

• 2:12:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. So here, yeah, in, in the moment. So a lot of the time, you're like, oh, let's go train. And I'm like, the chance of me really going, cause I'm already like, I'm on this path. Like, I have hard time, and you know this about me. Where I have hard time shifting my mental like momentum, you know? So it's like, bro, why, you're asking me about training right now? I'm really focused on this thing. So it's not like I'm not gonna go, but right now, I'm not gonna make the decision to go or not. Right? So now when tomorrow comes to train, it's kinda like it's up in the air. And don't let me get started on something that day. So whatever. But this time I was like, you were like, oh, training beforehand. I was like, oh yeah, freak yeah. Cause I missed a lot of training. I see you guys taking pictures, you know, the FOMO, you ever get that? Pictures of Dean and guys, they trained all good. And you're like, I didn't make it. Anyway. And I seen Keenan

• 2:12:55Speaker 01

  guys were starting to come too. I was like, oh man, okay. So tomorrow I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. Like that's the plan. And then I, um, I got caught up late at night.

• 2:13:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, cause I tried to let you know early enough.

• 2:13:08Speaker 01

  You did the right thing. You totally did the right thing. Um, and then, yeah, I got caught up late at night doing some stuff. Um, and I made the decision last night, like, oh man, I don't know if I'm gonna go train if I, if I'm gonna continue on this path. Last night, I mean, which I did. When I woke up, I was like, I'm not training at all. But I did feel it when I came in and seen you guys, you know, the post-training scene.

• 2:13:29Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:13:30Speaker 01

  Everyone's all sweaty, sweat on the ground. He was talking, one or two guys might be, you can, they're not breathing hard, but you can tell they were just breathing hard. You know, it's like a vibe, you know, but and then I walk out there on the mat, just say hi to everybody and I'm wearing my regular clothes. You know, like, you know, that feeling, right? Everyone trained except for me. Yeah, yeah, I felt it. I kind of felt it more than I usually do today. So.

• 2:13:50Jocko Willink?

  Dave was there. Greg trained. Sloan was there. Miha was there.

• 2:13:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, wait, Dave. Dave.

• 2:13:57Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, Dave. Dave.

• 2:13:59Speaker 01

  Younger.

• 2:13:59Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:14:00Speaker 01

  Oh, for real? Oh, I didn't even see him. Okay. Greg Train was here too?

• 2:14:03Jocko Willink?

  Greg Train was here.

• 2:14:04Speaker 01

  Man.

• 2:14:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:14:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, that's brutal.

• 2:14:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, Miha, Keenan.

• 2:14:10Speaker 01

  Sloan, Victor.

• 2:14:11Jocko Willink?

  Adam.

• 2:14:12Speaker 01

  Andy Burke.

• 2:14:13Jocko Willink?

  Andy Burke. See, we had a crew, bro. Where were you at?

• 2:14:15Speaker 01

  It hurt, it hurt. So, yeah, well, actually, the good news that might be, that is probably a good catalyst to boom, kind of nudge me back into the scene, you know? Cause like I said before, breath, now all like for a few times, like the past, my training has been all like day of like, oh shoot, train's going on right now. If I leave right now, I can, and then I'll go. It won't be like, okay, tomorrow my schedule is this, this, I'm gonna train. It's never been that. I mean, it hasn't been that for a while. So maybe it'll change.

• 2:14:42Jocko Willink?

  So, when I got done training.

• 2:14:44Speaker 01

  Sure. Yes.

• 2:14:45Jocko Willink?

  And by the way, I have not eaten today, other than I had some almonds. So what time is it right now? I don't know, but it's, it's in the, it's, we're closer to dinner than we are to lunch.

• 2:14:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:14:57Jocko Willink?

  We'll say that. And I haven't eaten today. So I got done, you know, I lifted this morning and then he came here, trained. And I haven't eaten. So I, as soon as I was done training, I was like, I gotta get that little milk. The thing that's great too, you're getting 30 grams of just good, clean protein that's going straight to your recovery.

• 2:15:17Speaker 01

  Third.

• 2:15:18Jocko Willink?

  It's 30 grams of just luscious protein. You can kind of feel it, you know, I know it's like placebo effect. But I kind of feel it when I drink it. I'm like, yeah, coming back.

• 2:15:32Speaker 01

  Your body's not going catabolic anymore. I would think that if you're, if you're working out then training and still not eating yet. And when you do eat, I would think you could feel it there. I'm sure there's all kinds of biological indicators.

• 2:15:46Jocko Willink?

  Remember I was talking earlier about like, there was a company that wanted me to work with them and they made something that was like addictive and bad for you. But we made something, it's a little bit the same. It's addictive, but it's good for you. Cause that's the thing with the RTD, it's good to have them. You just get them and have them. Because it's such a nice thing to be able to satisfy your hunger and provide good fuel for rebuilding. And have something that tastes freaking delicious.

• 2:16:18Speaker 01

  Yep. Well, you know, the

• 2:16:20Jocko Willink?

  Shouldn't this be a Nobel Prize scenario? Honestly? Honestly, shouldn't that be a Nobel Prize? Is there a Nobel Prize for food?

• 2:16:28Speaker 01

  Well, you know, I don't know. And I don't know.

• 2:16:30Jocko Willink?

  For just mankind, just for mankind.

• 2:16:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Hey, I don't know. You might have some.

• 2:16:34Jocko Willink?

  The Molk.

• 2:16:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, the Nobel Prize.

• 2:16:36Jocko Willink?

  A Nobel Prize for Molk.

• 2:16:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, makes, makes sense.

• 2:16:40Jocko Willink?

  So check it out, jockofuel.com. You can get that. You get the joint warfare. Look, you're gonna need the joint warfare.

• 2:16:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:16:45Jocko Willink?

  At, at a certain point in your life, you're gonna need the joint warfare. We got a lot. What's cool, the way you know joint warfare is good is the number of subscribers to joint warfare.

• 2:16:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:16:55Jocko Willink?

  Like if you subscribe, people are like, I need that. I need that. Same thing with super krill. You're gonna need that. So jockofuel.com, you can get it there. You can also get it, uh, get the drinks at Wawa. By the way, you might have to look a little bit harder at Wawa for the drinks, because there's, you know, that shelf is, is filled up a little bit. So get in there, have a look, don't go, don't get something that they put right in front of your face. And then they want like, they want you to drink something that's bad for you.

• 2:17:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:17:26Jocko Willink?

  Don't do that. You gotta work a little bit. Look around, find the go and drink something that's freaking good for you. Something that's not going to give you type two diabetes.

• 2:17:37Speaker 01

  Right. You know what that reminds me of right there? That thing you just said, you ever do a Google search? It's a regular Google search of on whatever.

• 2:17:44Jocko Willink?

  Yes, I've done a Google search before.

• 2:17:45Speaker 01

  Yes, sir. Yes, sir. I understand. And then, but the first one, two, sometimes three results have a little, little teeny tiny word next to it says, uh, sponsored or ad, whatever, right? It's like, that's the first ones you see, right? You kinda gotta skip those, cause the interests aren't aligned with you.

• 2:18:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:18:02Speaker 01

  See what I'm saying?

• 2:18:03Jocko Willink?

  Paid money for that.

• 2:18:03Speaker 01

  They paid money to get in front of your eyes or whatever. It's not that it's the most relevant. So technically you gotta skip the, the conflict of interest ones and go to the most relevant from what, or with what you're looking for.

• 2:18:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:18:14Speaker 01

  That's the go right there. At the shelves, on the shelves.

• 2:18:17Jocko Willink?

  That's the go on the shelves. Uh, that's, you know, when you go into Wawa, you've got it. Just, just, just look around a little bit. Uh, vitamin shop. By the way, greens, greens, Jaco Greens. You know, we sell a lot of product, right? Of all kinds. Our number one thing is greens.

• 2:18:37Speaker 01

  Really?

• 2:18:38Jocko Willink?

  Yes, Jaco Greens. Because people realized as soon as you try them, you're like, oh, greens can taste good. They don't have to taste like dirt and mud.

• 2:18:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:18:47Jocko Willink?

  And they, and they can actually have better ingredients and can be cheaper.

• 2:18:54Speaker 01

  What's funny is-

• 2:18:55Jocko Willink?

  How is that?

• 2:18:56Speaker 01

  Hey man.

• 2:18:56Jocko Willink?

  I'll tell you how.

• 2:18:57Speaker 01

  When you do it right.

• 2:18:58Jocko Willink?

  When you do it right.

• 2:18:59Speaker 01

  That's literally what my mom told me. The part where it's like, oh, greens don't have to taste like, like these actually taste good. And she's a green person. Like she's down for the greens. Yeah, yeah. Like she knows, she already accepted the whole thing that, hey, greens taste like crap. That's all. It's cool. We'll, we'll mix it in a nice smoothie or something like this. So we'll just power through it.

• 2:19:16Jocko Willink?

  Don't have to.

• 2:19:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, nope, not anymore. And she was like, oh, I was impressed. I was like, yeah.

• 2:19:20Jocko Willink?

  So check out the greens. They actually taste good. Obviously they're good for you. Like you, let's face it, we're not, we're not rolling back to the house after training being like, oh, I really want to get some broccoli.

• 2:19:32Speaker 01

  No, typically no.

• 2:19:33Jocko Willink?

  Where's that wheat gr-? Like you're not doing that, right? It's not happening.

• 2:19:39Jocko Willink?

  And what's cool about these greens are, you know what I've been doing lately? Lately, I've been taking the greens and having it as like, do you know what? This is coming from my wife. Do you know what a port is? It's a kind of wine.

• 2:19:50Speaker 01

  Wine, yeah.

• 2:19:50Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's a port wine. Yeah, but this is the thing about, you know, my wife, like, I'm from America, bro. I'm uncultured. She's from England. She's like, you know, she's more, way more cultured than me. But, you know, she would be like, oh, maybe after dinner I'll get to port, right? I'm like, well, this is when I was, you know, 25.

• 2:20:09Jocko Willink?

  Do you like a port? It's a wine that you have after dinner. And I was like, okay. So for me, greens is like a port. Like you have, you eat dinner and you want that little nice little something just to kind of put you in the mo, in the, in the zone. You get your greens. It's like a port wine, right? Tastes good.

• 2:20:25Speaker 01

  If you say so. And I can.

• 2:20:27Jocko Willink?

  Wait, wait, what are you gonna say it like that? Why are you gonna say it like I'm, I'm, I'm not right?

• 2:20:32Speaker 01

  You know what?

• 2:20:33Jocko Willink?

  I'm right.

• 2:20:33Speaker 01

  You know what's really, in your own way, bro, you are right, Jaco. You're right.

• 2:20:37Jocko Willink?

  Do you not agree with me?

• 2:20:39Speaker 01

  I, I can't, put it this way, it's more so than I agree or disagree, I can't not agree with you, put it that way.

• 2:20:46Jocko Willink?

  There's a, the reason, I think the reason I thought, if you've ever seen a port wine, they look like they're thicker.

• 2:20:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:20:52Jocko Willink?

  Am I right?

• 2:20:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like a.

• 2:20:53Jocko Willink?

  So that's what the greens are like.

• 2:20:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:20:55Jocko Willink?

  The greens are like, like, and they're, and port is sweeter.

• 2:20:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:20:58Jocko Willink?

  Our greens are sweeter. They're sweetened with monk fruit. Like, it's a real thing, brah.

• 2:21:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, you might have something there.

• 2:21:03Jocko Willink?

  So let me just give you some advice. And by the way, then you go to sleep and that all that goodness is just rolling through your body as you're sleeping at night, just rebuilding you into a freaking monster.

• 2:21:13Speaker 01

  You might have a point. You might be onto something. I will tell you that.

• 2:21:16Jocko Willink?

  Dude.

• 2:21:17Speaker 01

  So yeah, do you drink it in like the port, the glass?

• 2:21:19Jocko Willink?

  I might do that today. I've never done that yet. I'm gonna get a port glass.

• 2:21:23Speaker 01

  There you go. All right.

• 2:21:24Jocko Willink?

  We're gonna make Jaco port glasses for greens.

• 2:21:26Speaker 01

  All right.

• 2:21:26Jocko Willink?

  There you go.

• 2:21:27Speaker 01

  Home report.

• 2:21:27Jocko Willink?

  Only making them in America.

• 2:21:28Speaker 01

  Boom.

• 2:21:29Jocko Willink?

  Uh, you can get this stuff, Military Commissaries, Vitamin Shop, Hannah Firds, Dash Stores in Maryland, Wakeford, ShopRite, Circle K. HEB, thank you, Texas, my people. Freaking HEB is stoked.

• 2:21:47Jocko Willink?

  Uh Meyer up there in the Midwest. Good to go. So check all those out. Jaco Fuel dot com. We got you. Origin USA. I just posted a little thing today because we made 12,000 pieces last week in the various factories.

• 2:22:05Speaker 01

  Damn.

• 2:22:06Jocko Willink?

  When, when, when Pete and I shook hands, like let's work together. We were, I think we had 12 employees. We might've even had eight employees when we originally shook, shook hands. And we were making like a hundred and 20 or a hundred and 50, like Jiu Jitsu geez.

• 2:22:22Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 2:22:22Jocko Willink?

  A week.

• 2:22:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:22:24Jocko Willink?

  Damn. Think about 12,000. And by the way, this is like, this is the ramp up. This is the ramp up. So, uh, originusa.com. All the stuff is made in America. The best quality. We got hunk gear, Jiu Jitsu gear, geez, rash guard, jeans, Delta 68s. All day. Uh, boots.

• 2:22:46Jocko Willink?

  Joggers. We got short. We got everything.

• 2:22:50Jocko Willink?

  Originusa.com. You're gonna need a gee. You need a rash guard. We got the, the, the comfort fit rash guards, which are like a little bit more chill.

• 2:22:59Speaker 01

  More loose, like a dry.

• 2:23:00Jocko Willink?

  Little bit more like a dry fetish. So I normally don't like, it's a little bit tight. You know what I mean? You know, when I used to compete a lot in that Jiu Jitsu. I had a, the shirt that I would, I wore a Guinness shirt. That's what I would compete in. That was my most low pro. Yeah. Like people would just be like, well, who is, because everyone else would be wearing some shirts. The gear. Guinness shirt.

• 2:23:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, that is.

• 2:23:25Jocko Willink?

  Joel Tudor used to pull that off too. He'd compete in like a pair of Vans, like a Vans t-shirt.

• 2:23:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, like a bigger one too.

• 2:23:30Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, like all loose.

• 2:23:31Speaker 01

  Just a t-shirt.

• 2:23:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, just a t-shirt and a pair of Vans shorts.

• 2:23:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:23:35Jocko Willink?

  That's what he was doing. Cause that's, people are unsuspect like, who is this guy? Well, he thinks he's gonna come out here and do something to me?

• 2:23:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:23:41Jocko Willink?

  And then they get triangled or they get foot locked.

• 2:23:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:23:44Jocko Willink?

  So there you go. Uh, originusa.com.

• 2:23:47Speaker 01

  Yep. Also Jaco, also Jaco store.com. Jaco's the store.

• 2:23:51Jocko Willink?

  Oh, okay.

• 2:23:52Speaker 01

  It's called Jaco's store. Anyway, uh, hey, look, we're playing this game. We're in this game. We're on the path on this game. This is how you're gonna, this is how you're gonna improve and increase the chances of you being successful in this game. If you're on the path, you're gonna represent while you're on that path. That's where you can get your discipline, equals freedom. Shirts, hats, hoodies, that kind of stuff. Better than merch, by the way. Merch is just, oh, you know, here, throw this on this shirt. No, it's not. It's like very wearable. A lot of people report back and say, hey, this, this not only has good, good stuff on it or whatever, but it's the best fitting clothes that I have. True. Jaco store.com. We also have the shirt locker, which is a subscription service where you get a new shirt every month.

• 2:24:34Speaker 01

  Different, different designs, but still on the path and you're representing big time. So a lot of people have been on that one and, and report, uh, good feedback on that one. So check it out if you like.

• 2:24:44Jocko Willink?

  Subscribe to the podcast, subscribe to Jaco Underground.com, subscribe to the YouTube channel, subscribe to, or go get psychological warfare. Check out Flipside Canvas. My brother Dakota Meyer got, making cool stuff to hang on your wall. Flipside Canvas.com. Got a bunch of books. You know what the books are. Go and check those books out. We've written a bunch of them. Echelon Front Leadership Consultancy. We solve problems through leadership. Go to echelonfront.com if you want to come to any of our events. We got Orlando, Florida, the muster. You just made a video today, came out.

• 2:25:15Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 2:25:16Jocko Willink?

  April 3rd through the 5th, and then we're doing Dallas, Texas.

• 2:25:23Jocko Willink?

  October 18th through the 20th. We also got a bunch of other things we do. FTX, we got council, we got battlefield.

• 2:25:30Jocko Willink?

  Next battlefield is March 21st, 21st and 23rd, but it's sold out. Um, so look for the next thing we're gonna do after that. That's all of that. Echelonfront.com. We also have our online training program. I talked about that today. Extreme Ownership Academy. Go to extremeownership.com, take courses, ask questions.

• 2:25:48Jocko Willink?

  Get coached, get advice, learn how to take ownership of your freaking life there. Extreme ownership.com. Even if you want to help service members, active and retired, you want to help their families, you want to help Gold Star families. Check out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee. She's got a charity organization and if you want to donate or you want to get involved, go to Americas Mighty Warriors.org. And also we got Heroes and Horses.org. Micah Fink taking, right, where's he doing right now? Oh, he just shot a bear with a bone arrow and he's skinning it as he's riding his horse through the wilderness by himself. Or no, he's not by himself. Oh, no, he's got some veterans with him and they're all out there.

• 2:26:29Jocko Willink?

  Finding the path. So there you go. Heroes and Horses.org. And if you want to connect with us on the interwebs, we're on there. Echo's at Echo Charles. I'm at Jocko Willink. Obviously, please just watch out for the algorithm and, and thanks to the Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines that are out there. Playing the game, the big game to keep us safe. Thank you for your continued service. And the same thing for our police and law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, Border Patrol, Secret Service, and all first responders. Thank you for protecting us here at home.

• 2:27:12Jocko Willink?

  And to everyone else out there, just remember to take a step back. Take a step back, look at what's happening and you're going to see there's a framework. There's a framework to a game that is being played and you're probably going to be able to see three, four, or five of them. Figure out what those, that framework is. Figure out what the rules are. Figure out what the objectives are and then play the game. And until next time, this is Echo and Jaco out.