Jocko Underground: Is Social Media Divisive? Losing Faith in Humanity.

Social media being divisive. Losing faith in humanity. Shoe collections. Letting go of control at work. Toxic work habits. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is the Jocko Underground Podcast, sitting here with Echo Charles.

• 0:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's right.

• 0:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, sitting here with Echo Charles. We were gonna, I, I proposed, you're back from Hawaii, I figured you're ready to get back in the game, on the mats of justice, I sent you a text, "Hey, train at this time, we'll record done, when we're done." You denied. You did not want to do it, you did not want to partake.

• 0:27Speaker 01

  I had literally 0% interest in taking you up on that.

• 0:30Jocko Willink?

  Why?

• 0:31Speaker 01

  Okay, well, okay, I don't want to make this too long of a story, but we do run that risk, so if...

• 0:37Jocko Willink?

  A bunch of people just left the chat.

• 0:42Speaker 01

  First off, first off, you're correct, I am back from Hawaii, and I am back in the game, 100%. So in Hawaii was, let's say, it was a slacker trip. It worked out a little bit, but I drank a lot of beer, not got, partied or nothing like this, but like, you know, and I don't really drink that much beer. So anyway, diet kind of fell off, anyway, so when I get back, and you know, we all feel like that, when we get back from vacation, I'm getting, I'm going hard, in fact, setting straight up goals with numbers, with numbers.

• 1:13Jocko Willink?

  Check this brother out.

• 1:15Speaker 01

  So anyway, the past week has been strong, strong, like on the path, good numbers, way ahead, I'm ahead of schedule.

• 1:20Jocko Willink?

  Training, jiu-jitsu isn't on the schedule with your friends?

• 1:23Speaker 01

  Is on the schedule and has been, I've been training all week, lifting, everything.

• 1:28Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:29Speaker 01

  When you texted me today.

• 1:31Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 1:32Speaker 01

  A, jiu-jitsu training was not part of the schedule, because I have a schedule, like I have a plan, like I'm training this day, this day, this day.

• 1:39Jocko Willink?

  Jiu-jitsu should always be on the schedule.

• 1:41Speaker 01

  Every single day.

• 1:42Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 1:42Speaker 01

  See, I'm not there, yet, that's not, that's not where I'm at on the, in the program, see what I'm saying?

• 1:49Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:50Speaker 01

  So anyway, and, I'm like in the middle, or in the middle of my workout, literally in the middle of my workout.

• 1:57Jocko Willink?

  At 10 o'clock in the morning?

• 1:58Speaker 01

  And you're over here, and you're over here, "Let's go train."

• 2:03Jocko Willink?

  How are you working out at 10 o'clock in the morning?

• 2:05Speaker 01

  I am currently training.

• 2:06Jocko Willink?

  Do you have a job, sir?

• 2:10Speaker 01

  Anyway.

• 2:12Speaker 01

  I'm currently training.

• 2:14Jocko Willink?

  Like a lunchtime workout starts at 11:30. A morning workout goes until 7:30, 8.

• 2:19Speaker 01

  Amen.

• 2:20Jocko Willink?

  What are you doing at 10?

• 2:21Speaker 01

  We'll call it a brunch workout. We have some people in town. We hung out in the morning a little bit, you know? I got to the workout. Hit it hard. All good. But in the middle of it, Dan, here comes your text.

• 2:30Jocko Willink?

  What kind of lift was it?

• 2:31Speaker 01

  Like, what did I do today? Okay, so.

• 2:34Jocko Willink?

  Oh, shit, that was a bad question. You're about to get detailed, way more detailed than anybody.

• 2:38Speaker 01

  I did a, put it this way, I did a shoulder circuit.

• 2:40Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:41Speaker 01

  I did an arm circuit, and then I did a.

• 2:43Jocko Willink?

  A metcon?

• 2:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, like an aerodyne thing. Anyway, the aerosol bike.

• 2:49Jocko Willink?

  So you were tired?

• 2:50Speaker 01

  I was in the middle of a workout. So you can't just roll in spontaneously changing the whole program. Can't do that. It's not how it's going, you know, that's not how the workout program works. So you say, let's train, which is gonna be like less than however many hours.

• 3:05Jocko Willink?

  Then I said, let's train after we get done recording.

• 3:07Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 3:07Jocko Willink?

  And you said no to that, too?

• 3:08Speaker 01

  Nope. Wasn't part of the program.

• 3:12Speaker 01

  Not part of the program. So.

• 3:13Jocko Willink?

  I like how that's, in your mind, that's justification.

• 3:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:16Jocko Willink?

  Like, that's legitimate. You might as well have just said that's against the law, or against the Constitution of the United States of America. That's how you're talking around, because jiu-jitsu wasn't predetermined.

• 3:26Speaker 01

  Correct. So here's the weird thing.

• 3:27Jocko Willink?

  Freaking ridiculous.

• 3:28Speaker 01

  What you just said right there, you're, you're like, you're on, you're on to something. It's because I thought to myself, like, why wouldn't I? Because I felt the pressure, you know, when you're like, you know, when someone asks you to train and then you gotta say no.

• 3:39Jocko Willink?

  What you should morally do, you know what the right thing to do is.

• 3:40Speaker 01

  I wouldn't go that far.

• 3:41Jocko Willink?

  Just to train.

• 3:42Speaker 01

  But, but, a little bit of that, what you just said, is true. Because it's kind of like, hey, it's not like I don't want to train. It's not like I don't want to do jiu-jitsu. Like, I feel like me saying no to training is me saying no to a training opportunity. It's what it felt like, especially.

• 3:56Jocko Willink?

  You did.

• 3:56Speaker 01

  You, Jocko, have a way, and I think other people can vouch for this, you have a way of like saying stuff without saying stuff.

• 4:05Jocko Willink?

  It's a text, bro. It's a text. I said, do you want to train at noon? We record afterwards.

• 4:10Speaker 01

  So you can imagine how powerful that is.

• 4:14Speaker 01

  So I feel it and I felt it. There's no exception. You're like, oh yeah, let's train.

• 4:19Jocko Willink?

  I was sending brain, negative brainwaves toward you.

• 4:21Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, loud and clear. But every once in a while, so now I'm in a conundrum, like do I, do I give in to Jocko's freaking pressure?

• 4:30Jocko Willink?

  It's positive peer pressure.

• 4:32Speaker 01

  Exactly right. So now you can imagine my.

• 4:34Jocko Willink?

  Would you feel better if we trained right now?

• 4:37Speaker 01

  No.

• 4:37Jocko Willink?

  You gotta be kidding me.

• 4:38Speaker 01

  Well, then again, I don't know. So.

• 4:40Jocko Willink?

  Answer honestly. If we would have trained right now, had a good roll, did six, seven rounds, pretty chill, and you would not feel better right now?

• 4:50Speaker 01

  I don't know. And I honestly say, I don't know. And this is why, because I think I went, you know how like you get on the program, like for a week or however many weeks, you might not know this, but this is part of the game sometimes, where you kind of go too hard. If you go too hard with a workout and too hard with a diet, then you can like go into overtraining.

• 5:06Jocko Willink?

  Okay. Is that where you're at right now?

• 5:08Speaker 01

  No, no, no. But may, but maybe.

• 5:11Jocko Willink?

  That one, that jitsu would have put you there.

• 5:17Speaker 01

  If I'm on the program and then the, and I'm doing like, if I double my workout, we'll say, or whatever, is that part of the program? Yeah, this is what I'm going through in my head, by the way, to justify me saying no and not feel like guilty or whatever. So, but then, but then I, I thought back to my whole, like, my whole life.

• 5:41Jocko Willink?

  It's just a tax fraud.

• 5:44Speaker 01

  I go back to my whole life, when I started like working out and doing stuff and when I first learned about like working out and programs and stuff. I've always done that. I always like, even if it's like good for me, it's not part of the program, I'm not doing it.

• 5:58Speaker 01

  Because it's like, it's almost, it started off with like, okay, if I do something different than the program, how do I know if this program actually works if I didn't follow it correctly? Right? But then I got so like, so strict to that idea that it kind of mutated into this like.

• 6:11Jocko Willink?

  So how to drink a beer in Hawaii and not work out for three weeks? How'd that fit on the program?

• 6:16Speaker 01

  That was not on the program.

• 6:18Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 6:18Speaker 01

  But nonetheless, that's, that's what I was like contemplating in my head. But here's the thing. Look, after workout, I go into a recovery period.

• 6:29Speaker 01

  Jiu Jitsu with you, by the way, is not a recovery period. That is the opposite of recovery period. So anyway. So we did not train. No, we did not train today. Maybe we'll train tomorrow. Actually tomorrow I have off. So don't even bother me tomorrow.

• 6:44Jocko Willink?

  Okay. All right. Well, here we are. We can, can you do this? Can you make it through this? Or do you get K-Dog in here? Get Carrie in here because you're recovering right now. You gotta go use a theragun on your, on your shoulder or whatever.

• 6:57Speaker 01

  Whatever. It's true. It's true.

• 7:00Jocko Willink?

  All right. Well, um, talk a little bit. I gotta ask a question. Um, the, the topic, the topic is, is a common topic that you hear a lot of people say it's, you know, um, with social media out there.

• 7:18Jocko Willink?

  No one, there's no consequences. Right? And someone's asking me, you know, hey,

• 7:25Jocko Willink?

  isn't it seem like social media has no consequences? And it's just, it just makes anybody able to say anything.

• 7:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:33Jocko Willink?

  And, and that seemed like a really good launch point for me to like launch into like, hell yeah. Social media, no one, no one would say that to my face. They would have to pay for that kind of thing. And,

• 7:50Jocko Willink?

  and I was, my, my actual response was, well, actually I don't really like, I'm not going to let some random unknown person on Twitter bother me.

• 8:00Jocko Willink?

  So that's my recommendation. My recommendation is you don't let social media bother you because it's a lot. And I guess we have to give some credit to Joe Rogan on that because he tells people all the time. What does he say? He posts and ghosts.

• 8:17Jocko Willink?

  But he did not read in the comments. He tells everyone, don't, don't read the comments. And I think I, I can, I can, I can actually read the comments and sometimes they're funny and whatever. But I don't let them get me mad.

• 8:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:30Jocko Willink?

  How's it going to get you mad? It's a random person. And they gotta be bothered. You know, what, what's going on in their world that they came onto your area and started putting comments down like they got, they got issues, man. You ain't gotta worry about these people that are doing this stuff. That's, that's, that's where I'm coming from. That being said. There is, there is a phenomenon that occurs on social media and it's sort of like a mob, right? And not just social media, but like the whole news, everyone can kind of get caught up in, in group think.

• 9:06Jocko Willink?

  And I was just going through some of the, some of the psychological causes of mob mentality. And I was, I was looking at psychologytoday.com and, and I realized there's just, when you see the, the psychology of a mob and you compare it to this, what you have on social media, it's the same thing. So in a mob, there's de-individuation. Right? Meaning you're, you're, you're part of a group. So you don't feel like you're, you're, yourself anymore, that you're part of this group and that happens on social media. Like you see a bunch of people chiming in, well, you're gonna chime in too. You lose your own individual thought.

• 9:53Jocko Willink?

  So that's number one. Number two, it's the same type of thing, but you, your identity, your personal identity, when you're part of a group, you lose your personal identity and you take on the identity of the group. So this happens on social media. That's why social media is so divisive. Or I guess it's one of the reasons why social media is so divisive. One of the other reasons is because if you can't smack someone in the face, but, but it is one of the reasons because people kind of lose their identity or they want to be part of that lynch mob that's throwing the hate, hate, hate, like, let me jump in. You know, the other thing that's funny about Twitter is you think you're gonna say something and everyone's gonna care about it.

• 10:37Jocko Willink?

  You know, like no one actually does, you know? Hey, actually it's going to be interesting with, with Elon Musk trying to buy it. And he, he's been saying, I want, I need to know how many of these are real people. And they won't tell, they won't tell him. So he's like, I'm out, bro. He's like, I'm out, you know? That's like you're going to buy a house and you say, well, how many bedrooms on the house? They say, we're not telling. They say ten bedroom, right? And you say, well, that's a big house. Damn, this is gonna be a good deal. And then you kind of get word that some of those bedrooms aren't even there.

• 11:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 11:14Jocko Willink?

  And you say it might be a five bedroom? So now, maybe I should be paying half for it. So that's Elon Musk. So a lot of these, these Twitter responses and stuff, they're not even real people, apparently.

• 11:27Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, so that's going on. Then here's what's going on. Another thing from psychology, emotions. It says, being part of a group can lead to heightened emotional states. Be that excitement, anger, or hostility. How factually true is that with social media, right? You're sitting there, you know, you just got done with dinner. You're feeling chill. You pick up your phone and you see that, and you just start to get all mad. That's what happens, man. That's what happens to people. It's crazy.

• 11:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:00Jocko Willink?

  And then you, then you chime in, and here's the thing. If you're mad and you post something and I see that you posted and it's gonna make me mad that I posted it, it grows. What a crazy thing.

• 12:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's real. It feels...

• 12:18Speaker 01

  I think this was Joe Rogan, actually, who said this. He made a really good point, right? So the, so Twitter, wherever, wherever. When you post something, you write something, you post it. When you post it, it's there. It's not like someone said it on the street and then they're gone and then you kind of would forget about it. You posted there, it's for you to see, whenever, forever, and for everyone else to see. So it's almost like someone makes it a point to go on record to say XYZ. That's what it feels like. It's there, there's an additional something to it, I think.

• 12:48Jocko Willink?

  It's definitely, it's definitely in some ways more than just saying it.

• 12:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, if I walk by you and I say, oh, you bald bastard or whatever, cool. But if I put it and post it, well, then it's out there.

• 13:02Speaker 01

  It's actually like comparing it to like, I don't know, maybe you're a UFC fighter or a musician or something. And someone in the crowd is yelling, you suck, you know, kind of thing. It's like... That's lame, but they don't really care because the show goes on, other stuff happens and whatever you forget about it. Yeah, but this is like, like I said, someone going on record forever saying this one thing, you suck. And it's like right there for you and everyone. So it kind of feels like it's more official or something, you know? But even though it is literally the same thing.

• 13:31Jocko Willink?

  Well, also the thing is just like in the teams, if you ever let anybody know that something's bothering you. They're gonna ride that thing, bro. They're gonna ride to the moon. So you can't let that happen. And I think it's the same thing here.

• 13:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:45Jocko Willink?

  If you're getting all frustrated, hey, wait a second. What, who are you to say that to me? Like you see, if you read Twitter, people say that kind of stuff. Hey, who are you to say that to me?

• 13:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 13:57Jocko Willink?

  What have you done? They say that kind of stuff.

• 13:59Speaker 01

  I've seen it.

• 14:00Jocko Willink?

  Right?

• 14:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:01Jocko Willink?

  That's, that's like a legitimate conversation with a unknown entity.

• 14:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:07Jocko Willink?

  That has no place.

• 14:09Speaker 01

  It's funny because like, you know, when you talk about it like this, what, something you might call detached.

• 14:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's a detached perspective over here.

• 14:17Speaker 01

  Seems real obvious, you know, like if you were to ask someone, true or false? It's okay to get into arguments on Facebook with people. True or false?

• 14:25Jocko Willink?

  I would say false.

• 14:26Speaker 01

  People would say false and pretty easy too.

• 14:28Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 14:28Speaker 01

  Unless you get some nuanced thing and someone's like talking about exceptions and all this other stuff. Um, but generally speaking, from a detached perspective, it's pretty obvious, you know? Like, should you let people you don't know or care about bother you?

• 14:43Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 14:44Speaker 01

  By posting stuff on Twitter? Should that bother you? It's like, no.

• 14:47Jocko Willink?

  And then, and then check this out. Let's say you and I knew each other. Should, should you and I get in an argument on, on Facebook in front of all of our group of friends?

• 14:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:59Jocko Willink?

  Does, does that, because you could say, well, we don't know each other, but no, I actually know Echo. Why would he say that?

• 15:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 15:04Jocko Willink?

  Would it be appropriate if you're gonna, if you and I are gonna argue, there's a party and you and I argue? The best way to do it is you and I start yelling in the middle of the party?

• 15:11Speaker 01

  Publicly.

• 15:12Jocko Willink?

  Publicly?

• 15:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:13Jocko Willink?

  And then just multiply that times a thousand or 10,000 or 100,000 because it's on social media.

• 15:19Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 15:19Jocko Willink?

  So none of this stuff makes sense.

• 15:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:22Jocko Willink?

  None of it makes sense. And yet people are getting all ate up with it. This is kind of a similar thing. Acceptability. Behaviors that are usually seen as unacceptable become acceptable when others in a group are seen carrying them out. It's just the whole, the whole rules change.

• 15:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:40Jocko Willink?

  I can say whatever I want. Echo, oh, Echo called him that? Cool. I can say something even even I can edge it up a little bit.

• 15:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:47Jocko Willink?

  You know what I'm saying?

• 15:49Jocko Willink?

  Anonymity, this is a obvious one. People feel anonymous when they're within a large group, which reduces their sense of responsibility and accountability. That's why people in riots go break windows and stuff. They don't think they're gonna get caught.

• 16:03Jocko Willink?

  Diffusion of responsibility, being part of a group creates a perception that violent or unacceptable behavior is not a personal responsibility, but a group one. So you're getting out of it, basically. Everyone else is hating on Echo. I'm gonna throw a couple jabs in there too.

• 16:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:20Jocko Willink?

  You know, never mind his feelings.

• 16:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. And if and if he gets mad and somebody gotta pay the price, it's kinda like, I know in the group it does feel like that though. Where let's say there's a hundred people in the group were all doing something bad. I kinda feel like one one hundredth of the like responsibility of it. That's what it feels like.

• 16:38Jocko Willink?

  Definitely. That's the psychology of it as well. Hundred percent.

• 16:42Speaker 01

  You know? So yeah, just go wild, right?

• 16:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 16:46Speaker 01

  What it feels like.

• 16:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's exactly what happens, dude. Uh, the last one is the larger the group or crowd, the more likely there will be a de-individuation of and diffusion of responsibility. So what you just said, if there's a hundred people, do you feel one one hundredth? If there's a thousand, then you feel one one thousandth, which is no guilt whatsoever.

• 17:09Jocko Willink?

  So that's what we're seeing. Uh, the mob mentality on the internet is the same thing that happens in a big giant riot and out of control protest, whatever it's gonna be. It's literally the same thing, which is why you as a person should be careful not to get caught up in the mob doing dumb stuff. Because even though you might get away with it, it still is not good.

• 17:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:41Jocko Willink?

  It just doesn't make sense. And and and also you shouldn't let the mob affect you if they're coming at you and getting all crazy. It's they're not hurting you. They're they're saying words to you. They're they're putting little digital uh, letters together. So don't take it so seriously. Imagine if imagine if social media was just a hundred percent like fun.

• 18:08Speaker 01

  Well.

• 18:08Jocko Willink?

  It was just all this for whatever reason, no one took it seriously.

• 18:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, like they took it as serious as they should kind of a thing like like basically we weren't the illusion of all this wasn't there. It was like it was.

• 18:23Jocko Willink?

  I was like, oh yeah, it's just a yeah, it's funny.

• 18:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:26Jocko Willink?

  That's kind of how I that's kind of how I feel sometimes.

• 18:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. And okay, let me ask you this because you're kind of in a in a unique position, right? Where you have like a ton of followers. So you know, when you're in that kind of public figure position, right? You know, it's it's obvious from the outside to be like, hey, you need to expect this kind of stuff, like strangers saying bad things about you potentially. Like, you got to expect that kind of stuff versus someone who's not a public figure, who just is sort of cruising on there and just doing normal everyday stuff on there. And then they take some hate by somebody. They don't know. It feels like, hey, man, oh, I feel like they would get affected by it just naturally a little bit more than a public figure type person.

• 19:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 19:05Speaker 01

  Or should I say the public figure person should be affected by less just because it almost is a super obvious that it comes with the territory almost kind of thing.

• 19:14Jocko Willink?

  Yep. You you're gonna these people are gonna just gonna come at you. I mean, just like, you know, those little bird scooters, you know what I'm talking about? They're like little electric scooters.

• 19:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:23Jocko Willink?

  And you can drive around. There's like one called Bird. There's one called Lime. I think Uber has them now.

• 19:29Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 19:31Jocko Willink?

  Well, they they put them out in like the neighborhood where I live and people just destroyed. People just destroyed them, bro. They hocked them off the cliff. They threw them through windows. It was like mayhem.

• 19:42Speaker 01

  Wait, you can like rent them or something, right?

• 19:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you you have an app on your phone. You've seen these little people on scooters, right? So you have an app on your phone and it costs you a dollar a minute or what? I don't even know how much it costs, but you get on them, you scooter around, right? Well, people.

• 19:57Speaker 01

  And then you just leave it there, right?

• 19:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you just leave it there when you're done. And this is the same. Well, and what I heard was they have this in Europe, right? In Holland or something. And in the in Holland or France or wherever, people drive them, they park them and then they let them for the next person. Where I live, they just hawk them off the cliff. They run them over with cars. They smash them through windows. So there's just gonna be people like it seems like a good idea, right? Hey, you get this little thing. It's real cheap. You can do because sometimes something's too far to drive, right? Or sorry, too too far to walk, too close to drive. You know, it's a nice little happy medium. I'll jump on this little scooter. Cost me fifty cents. But somebody just goes, oh, I'm just gonna hawk that thing through the window.

• 20:40Jocko Willink?

  So you got people out there that are just gonna break shit and they're gonna, they're gonna do, they're gonna do mean stuff. They're gonna be problem, right? So yes, if you're on social media, somebody's gonna huck a scooter through your virtual window. If they get the chance and you gotta be ready for that. Now, look, that's the way kind of America is, right? America's a little bit more wild than some other countries, you know? We, we have a little bit more wildness to us. People go out wilding, like just getting after it. And then you throw some booze in the mix. You don't know what's gonna happen. So the same thing's gonna happen in life, right? In so, in social media. And you got, you can't take it. You can't get, you can't get upset about it.

• 21:25Jocko Willink?

  There's no, the thing is in a virtual scooter thrown, thrown through your window, isn't real. Didn't even, you can just, don't ignore it, move on. No factor.

• 21:37Speaker 01

  But what percentage of that, or should I say in your brain where if you see a bad or negative comment? Like what percentage of that is like you being insecure about something that's actually true? That's real too, you know?

• 21:50Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 21:51Speaker 01

  So it's almost like it doesn't matter who says it, someone you know, don't know, a bot, it doesn't matter. Because if it affects you like, oh, I'm insecure about that. It's like, it's kinda true, you know?

• 22:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And then you go, I mean, maybe I should, you know, lift more.

• 22:03Speaker 01

  I know, but Brad, that's, you know, that's the, the, the challenge, right?

• 22:07Jocko Willink?

  You gotta, you know, guess what? Here's what, here's what's the reality you gotta face. You're not superhuman Superman, right? And, and people can look at me and be like, oh, look at Jock, he's got gray hair.

• 22:19Speaker 01

  Brutal.

• 22:20Jocko Willink?

  Like, yeah, I do. What? What am I, how's that supposed to, you know, what am I supposed to do with that? You know?

• 22:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 22:29Jocko Willink?

  He's old. Yeah, I kind of am. I don't think I'm that old. I don't feel old.

• 22:34Speaker 01

  What's the worst thing that you can remember someone saying about you?

• 22:37Jocko Willink?

  Oh, man.

• 22:42Jocko Willink?

  I don't know. I'd have to go review comments, I guess.

• 22:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, cuz there's like

• 22:46Jocko Willink?

  Get into it.

• 22:47Speaker 01

  There's different types and levels of insult, right? Cuz some insults are just like complete throwaway. Like, one of mine that they insulted me, they said that I should die.

• 22:58Speaker 01

  Obviously, like, okay, like, that's going hard, but

• 23:00Jocko Willink?

  It's a comment after my own heart.

• 23:03Speaker 01

  It's comical how hard they went. Like, it's so obvious, you know, it's like that kind. But then if someone said something about like, I don't know, just something that's a little bit more down to earth.

• 23:12Jocko Willink?

  Oh, like, like

• 23:12Speaker 01

  In line with the reality.

• 23:14Jocko Willink?

  People say stuff, people say stuff about your, your, your appearances on the Jocko Podcast a little bit.

• 23:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, so.

• 23:24Speaker 01

  So there's different, so that's what I'm saying, like, what's the worst? Cuz like, some people, like, if they're against the war or something, they're gonna say some negative stuff about you, like, you know, like

• 23:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you know, and it's like, well, if, oh, you supported the military industrial complex.

• 23:38Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 23:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you're right. I, I can't have that make me mad. I mean, that's a real thing.

• 23:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:46Jocko Willink?

  Uh, by my, my participation in the military and in fighting wars, I definitely, the, the military industrial complex definitely benefited from me.

• 23:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. So really, that's like the two battles, right, that you're fighting on social media is, one, to understand it's social media, it's not real life.

• 24:04Jocko Willink?

  Mm-hmm.

• 24:04Speaker 01

  And two is the battle kind of with your own, like, it's like, you guys, you guys talk about having an honest self-assessment kind of thing. It's like, it's the battle with that kind of a thing.

• 24:15Jocko Willink?

  You know, I wrote in Leadership Strategy and Tactics, I was like, oh, how do you receive criticism from someone that you don't like, you don't respect? And that really, you don't think even deserves to give you any criticism?

• 24:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:29Jocko Willink?

  And I, and I wrote, I was like, oh, what you do in a situation like that is you listen to what they have to say.

• 24:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:34Jocko Willink?

  And you try and figure out how you can apply it to make yourself better.

• 24:37Speaker 01

  I know, but that's like, that can prove as one of the hardest things to do ever, ever in life. That is If it's from someone who A has no like, let's say their status, their position in the company, their whatever, their expertise, whatever, they have no business criticizing you.

• 24:57Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 24:58Speaker 01

  Or giving you like negative or critical feedback or whatever, that's A. And B, if they do it in like a condescending or a tone that's off in some way, they'll put those things together, bro. It's impossible. It's borderline impossible.

• 25:10Jocko Willink?

  Check this out. I've been in situations where I, I have been fully approved and, and should be fully authorized to tell someone something and they've been like, couldn't take it, couldn't take it. And I'm talking, you know, you get like a young SEAL officer that has, that has never been on deployment before, literally knows nothing. I'm at the tail end of my career and I have a decent amount of knowledge. And I might say something like, and this wouldn't happen very often. And usually when it did happen, it usually would result in like a real problem because this means the person's just not gonna be, not gonna get it. But you know, I give them some, hey, you, you might not wanna, whatever, you might not wanna push that many guys in the building right, right

• 25:55Jocko Willink?

  out of the gate. Well, what if, okay. You think to yourself, it's crazy. And I'm not even, I'm not being a dick. You know, hey, hey dude, if you're that initial entry, you might wanna push everyone in there. It might get a little crowded in those first couple rooms. You got so many. And instead of being like, hey, cool. Yeah, that makes sense. Or even like, cool, I'll consider that. Even that would be, you know, hey, I might not, I'm not right about everything. Just offering a suggestion. But think of that. So if you get someone that's, that you, that you, that doesn't have any business telling you this, and you don't think they have any business to, but people are crazy, man. The ego,

• 26:35Jocko Willink?

  the ego is so crazy. The ego's so crazy. People don't even recognize what's happening. They don't even recognize what's happening. They can't even, they can't even understand. The ego blinds people so much that they don't even, they can't detach from it. I've had people that I've, that like read Extreme Ownership, read Dichotomy, listened to the podcast, and I'm talking to them. And they can't detach and see that, you know, like, um, well, the company's doing this wrong. Hey, I get it. You know what? It sounds like the company that you work with doesn't have great communication. I, I, it definitely seems that way.

• 27:19Jocko Willink?

  What, what you need to do is adjust the way you're interacting with your boss. Well, my boss won't tell me what's going on. I get it. I get it, but you need to change the way you interact with your boss. Well, why is it my business to change? Like, that's what they're saying to me.

• 27:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's great.

• 27:35Jocko Willink?

  And that's pure ego.

• 27:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:37Jocko Willink?

  So it's very, very difficult to get that thing under control. That's why what you just said, you, you're almost kind of beside yourself. You didn't, almost didn't have the words to express how hard it is to have someone that you don't respect, give you feedback and accept it. You know what's so good though, is like, let's say your team is getting debriefed. And you're getting debriefed by some guy that you don't like and no one likes on the team. And then the guy walks away and everyone's, and you go, hey, he made some good points. It's so disarming. You know, it's, why would, that guy's such a piece of shit. He shouldn't have. Well, you know, he did have a good point about our headcount. We could have done that quicker. And just, you know, like, let's move on. Let's just listen to what somebody has to say.

• 28:23Jocko Willink?

  This is not easy, man. I get it. I get it. I'll tell you what though, it is, it does seem like there's a, um, a repeated, a repeated gravitational pull that you kind of have to just overcome. And then when you overcome it, you're like, oh. You, you kind of get break free of it, but it doesn't, you, you don't break free of your ego one time. And now you're like, cool. You break free of your ego like 38 times a day. 38 times a day, something happens where you're like, oh, like, I can't believe Echo's in here telling me that. No, it's like, oh, okay. You know what?

• 29:01Jocko Willink?

  Hey Echo, thanks for the feedback on that. And then you get home and your wife's like, you're late for dinner. And meanwhile, you just worked a 19 hour shift. And your wife's, oh, you're late for dinner. And you, you know, it's, you want to slap back or clap back, whatever the expression is, don't slap your wife. You want to, you want to, you want to go hard, right? But what you gotta do is you gotta break that. That is a little excerpt of what we are doing on the Jocko Underground Podcast. So if you want to continue to listen, go to JacoUnderground.com and subscribe. And we're doing this to mitigate our reliance on external platforms. So we are not subject to their control.

• 29:43Jocko Willink?

  And we are doing this so that we can support the Jocko Podcast, which will remain as is, free for all, as long as we can keep it that way. But we are doing this so we don't have to be under the control of sponsors. And we're doing it so we can give you more control, more interaction, more direct connections, better communications with us. And to do that, we are, we're building a website right now where we'll be able to utilize to strengthen this legion of troopers that are in the game with us. So thank you. It's JacoUnderground.com. It costs $8.18 a month. And if you can't afford to support us, we can still support you.

• 30:23Jocko Willink?

  Just email [email protected] and we'll get you taken care of. Until then, we will see you mobilized underground.