336: Your Superpower. How To Get It. How To Use It.

An time, any place, if you deal with people, use these powers to get what's best for everybody. With Echo Charles. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 336 with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening. So, we've done a lot of reading and discussions and interviews on this podcast about the strategies and tactics from leadership, from human nature, that I've seen, or I've seen others use, or I've used myself. And, you know, this is something that I've noticed lately is, and it's something I used to see in the SEAL Teams. And now I see it at Echelon Front as well, where I can sit there and discuss something with someone

• 0:45Jocko Willink?

  and think that they understand how to utilize that lesson immediately. So, I explain something to someone and I think, oh, okay, cool, you know? They get it now, right? And they'll nod on their head and they'll kind of even give me the read back of, you know, what the, what the principle means. And so I think they get it and it seems pretty obvious from my vantage point, but,

• 1:08Jocko Willink?

  but it isn't always that obvious to everybody. And it can be very hard to see things when you're observing them for the first time.

• 1:18Jocko Willink?

  So, a lot of times I like to try and show a tactic, or a technique, or a strategy, or a procedure from a different angle, from a different perspective.

• 1:31Jocko Willink?

  And that's, you know, in order to try and convey that message to someone from a different vantage point where they maybe can understand it better. And I think I have become biased toward giving someone else's perspective, someone else's example. And I think that bias comes from the fact that I already know my perspective. Right? So, I already know what I think, so I, I enjoy, or I want to give someone else's perspective of a strategy because I find it interesting because it's someone else's, because I already know what's inside my own head, right? I already know what's in there. That being said...

• 2:18Jocko Willink?

  When I did the first interview I ever did in my life was with Tim Ferriss and he asked me if there's anything that I was world-class at. And of course, I said world-class is a very strong phrase to use, right? And he said it is a strong phrase. And I, so I told him I didn't think I was world-class at anything, which I still believe I'm not world-class at anything. But then I don't know if he reframed the question, or if I just kind of reframed it in a way that I could appropriately answer it. And I said something along the lines of if I had to say that I had some skillsets that helped me, I think that those skillsets would be number

• 3:01Jocko Willink?

  one, being able to take complex things and make them simple. And then being able to communicate those things in a simple way that other people can understand. And then number two was the ability to detach myself mentally and emotionally from whatever situation I'm in. And I believe that allows me to see it more clearly. So those are the two things that I think helped me out throughout my career and that I might be decent at doing. So I wanted to talk through some principles that we reflect on a lot, but in a more pragmatic way, just to ensure, or at least

• 3:43Jocko Willink?

  to help everyone put some of these principles to use in our current environment. And, and I've also been thinking about talking about how some of the principles that I talk about apply to what is going on today. This is not, now, what I don't want to do is do some kind of a current events thing. Oh, this is the latest news story. And this is because I don't, to me, that's not, that's not gonna last long, right? People need, if you use a current day example, that takes some, you have to understand the backstory behind this news thing. So you can apply it. I'm not really looking to do that because I want somebody to be able to listen to this in six years and say, oh, there's a good, there's a good angle I didn't see before. And this is going to help me with my

• 4:26Jocko Willink?

  leadership situation that I'm in right now. Or it's going to help me with my life, the way I'm in right now. It's going to help me get through, overcome this challenge that I'm facing right now. So to make it a little bit more evergreen is the term.

• 4:39Jocko Willink?

  Right. Am I using, what is it, industry terminology, evergreen?

• 4:42Echo Charles?

  I learned evergreen from you.

• 4:44Jocko Willink?

  Oh, did you? Evergreen means you can listen to this podcast in 10 years and still makes sense. You're not referring to some random, you know, TMZ news story that just came out and, and everybody's hype on it.

• 5:03Jocko Willink?

  But I think we can remain or, or maintain the evergreen aspect of the podcast. And still put in some, some of the current events that are going on right now, or at least some of the more outstanding current events. And you know, some of this I've done on, on unraveling with Daryl Cooper. I know we did Afghanistan. We've talked about Ukraine. You know, so there's things that he and I hit on that podcast to

• 5:33Jocko Willink?

  kind of discuss from, from my perspective, what's going on with these situations. And even those are difficult because they change so rapidly. Things change so rapidly. And I was just having a conversation with, about, about this with JP this morning about, you know, he's heard me say a million times that the first report, the first report's always wrong.

• 5:55Jocko Willink?

  And he was, you know, going through a situation. He's like, hey, is the first report always wrong? I said, yeah. Well, let me rephrase that. It might not be wrong, but it also might not be right. But you can't just trust. I might need to modify that a little bit where I say, you can't trust the first report. Cause if you call me panicked saying, I think the house is on fire, right? Or the house is on fire, the house is on fire. I can't trust that. I have to put it into my calculus. But look, there could have been a smoke bomb that the teenagers threw through the window and it looks like the house on fire, but the house isn't on fire. Right? Or the house could be on fire. So it could be right, it could be wrong. What I do know about the first report is I can't trust it 100%.

• 6:35Echo Charles?

  Unreliable.

• 6:36Jocko Willink?

  It's unreliable. So I might need to gather additional information.

• 6:42Echo Charles?

  Makes sense.

• 6:43Jocko Willink?

  So, speaking of these topics and speaking of something that comes up all the time.

• 6:50Jocko Willink?

  And that I call a superpower is the ability to detach.

• 7:00Jocko Willink?

  And this, some people automatically get uncomfortable with that. Because when I say detached, they think, oh, you told me I shouldn't have any emotions at all. Right? And it is talking about detaching from your emotions.

• 7:11Jocko Willink?

  It can also mean physically detaching from a situation. But detachment is a superpower. And we'll get to the emotional thing and how much you should detach and how much is too much. I think one of the clearest

• 7:25Jocko Willink?

  displays of detachment and how powerful it is. Well, one of them, I wrote about leadership strategy and tactics, my first platoon doing the, the, uh, clearing the oil platform. But I had that other situation where I was with Seth and we were, he was, he had taken over as task unit commander. And when he took over as task unit commander, he broke his neck. Thank God he wasn't paralyzed. So Seth Stone was my, was one of the platoon commanders and task unit bruiser. Now he's took over as the task unit commander. And he's going through his pre-deployment workup and I'm in charge of training for all these SEAL platoons and task units getting ready to deploy.

• 8:04Jocko Willink?

  And Seth doing a ship boarding where you climb up ladders onto ships from smaller boats. The guy, he was the last guy to be climbing the ladder because he's the, the, the task unit commander. So he's not going to be the first guy on deck, right? Cause he's sort of taken a step back. He's supposed to be detached, so he's going to be the last guy that goes up. And as he's going up, the person above him, or let me rephrase that, right as he was about to start climbing a la- the ladder. One of the other guys fell off the ladder and landed square on top of Seth's head from a fall of about like 20 feet. And it broke his, broke his neck. His spinal cord was intact, thank God. So now he's in a big neck brace.

• 8:49Jocko Willink?

  And he, but he can still walk around and his, his task unit is now going through our land warfare training. And so he's out there observing because he can't participate. And as he's participating, or as he's observing, and I'm standing there with him observing. And it's one of these crazy training exercises. There's total mayhem going on. There's freaking explosions going off. We're using this high-speed laser tag system. There's dead people everywhere. Again, this is training, so they're not actually dead, but they're, they're, they're, uh, Their laser tag system is saying that you're dead. So there's bodies strewn all over the place and no one's moving and no one's making any calls. It's a total disaster and they're in, in a ravine.

• 9:31Jocko Willink?

  And the enemy in quotes is in an elevated position and they're just tearing up this Seth's task unit. And Seth, he looks at me, he said, can I tell them what to do? And I said, no. I said, just let him figure it out. And another 30 seconds go by, more guys get shot with laser tag. He's called, let me, he's like, let me help him. And I go, not yet. Another 30 seconds go by, more guys get shot. And mind you, his guys are in this ravine. We're actually in the ravine with them. Now they're kind of prone position or maybe on their knees and we're standing up, but we're in the ravine with them.

• 10:08Jocko Willink?

  And finally, he says, more guys get shot. He goes, can I, let me help him. And I go, all right, go ahead. And he grabs a random dude, not a leader, just a random guy. And he says, I, I, I remembered exactly what he said the other night. He said, do I adds, which is, which is the most broad, the most broad instruction to give someone. Cause no one's making any decisions and an I add is an immediate action drill. Which means when you have a play in football, what's a play in football? Tell me like a play right now, that you guys used to run, that you were a part of.

• 10:42Echo Charles?

  Thirty eight sweep.

• 10:43Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so 38 sweep. So now everybody knows what to do when you call it. Give me another one.

• 10:47Echo Charles?

  Forty one sweep.

• 10:48Jocko Willink?

  Okay, 41 sweep. Now everyone's doing something a little bit different, but we're, we're making adjustments. So you literally have plays like that. And you would say, if you were going to tell your football team, you'd say, call a play, right? What Seth was saying was do I adds, which is the same thing as saying, call a play. So he just grabs a random dude and he's like, hey, and some, probably some new guy or one cruise wander, like all freaked out because everyone's getting shot. And you know, Seth gets in his face like, do I adds? And the kid looks up at Seth and okay. And he makes a call. Whatever, whatever 38 sweep or 41 sweep or peel left, peel right, shift left, shift right.

• 11:31Jocko Willink?

  Whatever the call was, this kid actually makes a call. And almost immediately, the problem solved, right? Almost immediately they start executing this play and people start putting down cover fire. Other people start to move it and it solves the problem.

• 11:47Jocko Willink?

  And as they get out of the area and get out of the kill zone, Seth looks at me and he says, "It's so easy to see what to do from way up here."

• 12:00Jocko Willink?

  And let me remind you, way up here in that situation was simply that we were standing up. I mean, it wasn't like we were in some elevated position. We didn't, we weren't in an aircraft flying around over. No, we could just see a little bit more. And by the way, the position we were in was a tactically sound position. So just by looking around and not getting tunnel vision and detaching whatever it is, probably 20 inches higher than the other people because they're on their knees and you're standing up. So you got like, what, maybe two feet of additional altitude? And you could see everything. And, and I looked at him and I said, well, I said something along, I said, "Look, we're not, we're with them.

• 12:44Jocko Willink?

  We're not way up here. We're, we're 24 inches above them."

• 12:50Jocko Willink?

  And he's like, "Oh yeah." And I said, "But you're looking around. You're detached." He says, "Oh yeah." And then I said, "You remember when we went through this training?" And he says, "Yeah." And I said, "This is what it was like for me all the time."

• 13:03Jocko Willink?

  And he, he had a look on his face of sort of recognition, kind of like, "Oh dang." So all the confusion and chaos that was going on, I was always looking at like, okay, uh, peel left, you know, shift right, swift, what is it, swing 32, what? It was really easy to make the calls because you're looking at it and you can see it. And that is the, that is the power of being able to detach. And it is,

• 13:30Jocko Willink?

  you would think that, now this is where, this is why I'm talking about this stuff right now. Because you would think if I explain that to you, you go, "Okay, cool. Thanks, Jaco. Now I'm going to detach." Right? That's what we would hope for. But there's a problem. It's not that easy. In fact, this can be very difficult to do. So here are some of the mechanics of being able to detach. And some of these are a little bit like training wheels, a little bit like, like learning aids. That once you get good at it, you won't need to do it anymore. But you should remember them anyways, because there might be some situations where shit really starts going sideways and you have to go back, put your training wheels on and kind of get it back together. So.

• 14:16Jocko Willink?

  One of the first training wheels is take a step back, a physical step back.

• 14:22Jocko Willink?

  A physical step back. This is going to change your perspective. It changes your perspective, perspective. And here's, here's a little, like a little.

• 14:34Jocko Willink?

  A little extra advice, and it's weird to say this. Lift your chin up.

• 14:42Jocko Willink?

  And look around. And the reason I say lift your chin up is because.

• 14:49Jocko Willink?

  When you lift your chin up, you're, you're, you're changing your perspective a little bit, right? Even if it's only by. A half an inch when you lift your chin up. You're kind of opening up your, you're opening up yourself, you're opening up to new ideas. It's the opposite of a fight stance. What are you doing in your fight? If you're going to get in a fight.

• 15:05Echo Charles?

  Yeah.

• 15:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you put your chin down, you put your hands up. So in this situation. And again, this is a, this is like a, a non-threatening situation. So if I, if you're coming at me, if you're like some kind of hostile or unknown and you're coming at me and you're confronting me. Obviously, I'm not going to lift my chin up and put my hands down. That's totally different. What I will do. Is keep my chin down, lift my hands up. I will step back. I will create space so that I can see more of what's happening. Cause I don't know, you got buddies. You know, I don't know if there's, what, what my surroundings have. I don't know if there's weapons available to me. So I'm going to get my hands up, but I am going to broaden my perspective, broaden my perspective. This is, and this is something that we talked about. Uh, when Andrew Huben was on here.

• 15:48Jocko Willink?

  Broadening your perspect, opening up your field of vision, truly. Calms you. It calms you down. So that's, that's one of the steps of detachment. So take a step back, lift your chin, look around, and then take a breath, a nice, slow breath.

• 16:08Jocko Willink?

  Cause this is another thing that's going to calm you down. It's another thing that's going to let you get control over your emotions. And this is something that people intuitively, you remember when you were a little kid and you'd be having a temper tantrum?

• 16:20Echo Charles?

  I've seen it done, yeah.

• 16:21Jocko Willink?

  Okay, when your kids are having a temper tantrum, have you ever said like, hey, just take a breath? And this is something even, okay, let me give you a better example. You get hurt.

• 16:29Echo Charles?

  Yeah.

• 16:29Jocko Willink?

  Or your kid gets hurt and they're right?

• 16:33Echo Charles?

  Yep.

• 16:33Jocko Willink?

  What do you tell them? Hey, take a breath.

• 16:35Echo Charles?

  Yep.

• 16:36Jocko Willink?

  Calm down, like, take a breath. That's what we tell people to do.

• 16:38Echo Charles?

  That's crazy how you said that example because I was watching old videos of my son like did some thing, he tripped over, it was, it was a funny video, but anyway, he, at the end of the video, he trips over something, falls down, I was like, well, kind of hit his knee or whatever, same deal.

• 16:54Jocko Willink?

  Hmm.

• 16:54Echo Charles?

  And it literally played out on the video, but I was just watching that video, so I was like

• 16:57Jocko Willink?

  And so did you tell him to take a breath?

• 16:59Echo Charles?

  Yeah, on the, on the video, I was like, oh, I said breathe.

• 17:01Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 17:01Echo Charles?

  I was like, breathe, breathe, and he's like, he's trying to, his foot, yeah, it's a very, very appropriate

• 17:07Jocko Willink?

  When Hickson was on here, Hickson wrote a book

• 17:09Echo Charles?

  Yeah.

• 17:10Jocko Willink?

  Called Breathe.

• 17:10Echo Charles?

  Yeah.

• 17:11Jocko Willink?

  Right? So there's a reason for this.

• 17:12Echo Charles?

  Yeah.

• 17:13Jocko Willink?

  And it's, it's proven by experience of people that have been in pressure situations and it's proven through doctors who can tell you about the physiological impact of taking a nice, slow breath. So that's what we're doing. This is going to help you detach in these pressure situations. Now, listen, here's another little like a note. Let's say you're, let's say you and I work together and you're pissed off. This is a lot different than you and I don't know each other and you're confronting me. Right? That's a self-defense situation. Hands are coming up. I'm still going to de-escalate. I'm going to step back. I'm going to create space, all those things. I'm trying to de-escalate. And by the way, I'm trying to get detached as well.

• 17:54Jocko Willink?

  Because let's say, you know, you bumped into, or I bumped into your girlfriend and spilled drinks on you and now you're all mad.

• 18:00Echo Charles?

  Yeah.

• 18:01Jocko Willink?

  Right? I don't know you, but now you're all mad, you're coming at me. Should I escalate my anger because you're coming at me? Or because you yell a swear at me and you, you push me? Should I let my anger get me? No, I should not because then bad things are going to happen. Instead, I should be stepping back, creating distance, looking around, getting my hands into a, into a defensive yet non-threatening, open aspect towards you.

• 18:30Jocko Willink?

  That's what I need to do. Now, if you and I, but that's in a life threat or a self-defense situation, but in just a normal, you and I are talking and you start getting pissed, but you and I work together. What I'm probably gonna do as I step back, as I take a breath, as I, as I broaden my field, I'm probably gonna just nod my head and let you know that I'm listening to what you're saying and we're gonna talk more about listening. But that's what I'm going to do. That's what I'm gonna do. And, and as I wrote about in Extreme Ownership, I'm gonna relax, look around, make a call. That's, that was the earliest way of me trying to teach Seth how to detach, was me saying, me writing on his Humvee window, "Hey, things are going wild.

• 19:13Jocko Willink?

  Step one, relax. Step two, look around. Step three, make a call." That's the earliest sort of version of me trying to convey this message to someone. I didn't know how to say detach yet. Didn't, it didn't compute. I was just trying to tell him the physical act of what to do. Freaking relax, bro. Look around, see what else is going on. Okay, now make a call. Now, here's the deal on this stuff. You can't see anything when you're in the thing.

• 19:45Jocko Willink?

  You can't see anything when you're in the thing. And the solution to the problem isn't in the problem. And look, the, there's a mass shooting that just happened in a school. Horrible.

• 19:57Jocko Willink?

  People keep saying, "Oh, when are you gonna, what are you gonna say about it?" I need to see some after actions reports. I need to find out what happened. I don't know what happened.

• 20:08Jocko Willink?

  There's, one of the things that I could tell you as you train people to handle horrible situations like that, you need to teach people to detach. Because if they're not detached, they can't see the solution to the problem. All they see is what's right in front of them. So, if you've got a shooter, an active shooter in a building,

• 20:30Jocko Willink?

  And you go into that building and you haven't been trained properly, you're going to get focused on that active shooter. Then if you think, oh, the active shooter isn't an active shooter anymore. It's a barricaded shooter, you're gonna, oh, that's a barricaded shooter. Now I'm going to follow this other tactic, technique, or procedure. Because you're focused on what's right in front of you, you're focused on that piece of information that you have.

• 20:50Jocko Willink?

  And you're not going to take a step back and go, hey, what's really happening right now? Who, who can give me a report? Who has accountability for the students? How many students are there? How many are missing? Where are they located? Who's assembling that big picture? You know who's assembling that big picture? Someone that's detached from the situation.

• 21:11Jocko Willink?

  And it is not easy to train people to do that. It used to take me a while to get a SEAL. Sometimes a SEAL that'd been in for five years, seven years, 10 years. To get them to be able to, oh, there's mayhem going on in this building? I need to be the one that takes a step back, looks at the big picture.

• 21:34Jocko Willink?

  And, and figures out what's actually happening. The, the, the, putting people through that advanced SEAL tactical training? The primary purpose with the leaders was for me to get them to learn how to detach. And again, at the time, I didn't say it with these exact words. You know, I'd say, you need to step back, look at the big picture. You know, like I would, I was trying to convey it the best I could at the time. I might've used the word detached. But I know, I would say things like, hey, take a step back, look around. You need to see this stuff, you need to look at the big picture. That was me trying to get these young SEAL leaders, like Seth Stone. Hey dude, relax and look around. That's what you need to do.

• 22:20Jocko Willink?

  Because at, once we could get those young SEAL leaders to actually do that.

• 22:27Jocko Willink?

  All of a sudden, they could solve these complex problems that we would throw up.

• 22:31Jocko Willink?

  If they couldn't detach, if no one in a platoon detached, no one would solve the problem and they would get slaughtered. If one person could take a step back and say, oh, wait, we shouldn't keep going down this hallway. Or we shouldn't keep moving up this street, or we shouldn't keep going up this ravine. Or we should, we should go backwards right now, or we should flank them. If one person can see that, they win. If nobody sees it, they get slaughtered. So my primary goal with the leaders, teaching them how to lead, the first thing they had to do was be able to detach. Now, once you detach, then you can see, then you teach them, okay, here's how you want to use the terrain. Here's an effective way to maneuver. Here's where you want to concentrate your forces. Like, all those things are great. If you can't detach, you can't do any of those things.

• 23:17Jocko Willink?

  It's a lot harder than it looks. It's a lot harder than it seems, and the hype and the emotion and the energy, it tends to make us not want to detach. And the natural tendency that we have as human beings is to focus on what's right in front of us. This is the natural tendency. That's how we survived as hunter-gatherers. As a hunter-gatherer, you either, okay, if you're a hunter, guess what? You got to be focused on, you see movement and it's a freaking pig that you're going to slaughter, kill? With a bow and arrow or spear or whatever, you need to hyper-focus on that thing. As an individual human, you need to hyper-focus on that thing.

• 23:58Jocko Willink?

  If you're walking around and you see movement and it's a tiger, you need to focus on that thing. It needs to become your number one priority.

• 24:08Jocko Willink?

  In order to survive, you need to focus. You need to get hyper-focused, and that's what we're programmed for. And there's sometimes, as an individual, you got to do that sometimes. It's actually a great thing to have. You know, you're walking down the street and all of a sudden a car is coming up on the sidewalk. You focus on that thing so you can avoid it. You've think of you ever seen that like when they're trying to get a robot to like catch a ball? It's it has to do eight billion calculations in point two seconds to catch a ball. I don't even know if I don't know if there's a there's a robot that can catch like a fastball from a from a pitcher.

• 24:43Echo Charles?

  Yeah, like a humanoid robot.

• 24:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, like a humanoid robot, even one with the size like with a with a glove the size of a catcher's mitt. Or like a I can almost guarantee you that they can't make one that could hit a baseball bat. I don't know.

• 24:57Echo Charles?

  I've never seen one if that's.

• 24:59Jocko Willink?

  There's a billion little calculations that have to get made. And I've also heard like baseball players when that when the when the ball leaves the pitcher's hand, like they're already predicting where it's gonna be. I mean, obviously they are because they can hit it with a freaking skinny little bat. You know what I'm saying?

• 25:19Echo Charles?

  Yeah.

• 25:20Jocko Willink?

  So so there's times where this is fully beneficial. And that's what our that's what our natural tendency is, is to get focused on this thing that's right in front of us. But as leaders. And honestly, in some situations as individuals, you're gonna have a problem if you do that. Well, and I think I was thinking about this, I don't know if I'm a hundred percent right, but

• 25:42Jocko Willink?

  it mostly has to do when you're dealing with humans, when you're dealing with a human threat. Because humans because humans do coordinated attacks.

• 25:50Echo Charles?

  Yeah.

• 25:50Jocko Willink?

  Right?

• 25:51Echo Charles?

  Sure.

• 25:51Jocko Willink?

  Like, oh, a wolf, you might get attacked by a pack of wolves. You'll lose just because they all attack you at the same time. Uh, you might get eaten by a pack of sharks. But it's not because one distracted you and the other one snuck up and you know what I'm saying? There's a difference between mob attacks, which I think is what most animals do. And what humans do, which is humans are setting you up like a sucker and flanking you, right? That's what humans do. That's what a that's what like a sucker punch is, right? Oh, sucker punch is like, oh, you're there talking to me and I'm like, I'll beat you and boom, my buddy punches you in the side of the head or hit you with a bottle from behind. That's what humans do. Humans are savages.

• 26:36Jocko Willink?

  And so even as individuals, sometimes if you get target fixation, you're gonna have a problem.

• 26:44Jocko Willink?

  So when we're in complex situations, there could be an emergency, right? Emergency, a fire, a vehicle accident. There's a lot of stuff going on, combat situations, obviously. And you know what else? This is where you make that mental transition. An argument with someone. Maybe not even an argument, but a debate with someone. You ever seen someone get lured in in an argument and just flanked? Yeah. And it's because they didn't detach.

• 27:15Jocko Willink?

  A Few Good Men. Yes. Right? That whole thing is just a big flank, right? I'm gonna get this guy so mad and so emotional that when I ask him this question, he's gonna expose himself. Yep. And that's what Tom Cruise does, right? You're goddamn right, I ordered the code red. That's exactly what he does. The Colonel in that movie, Jack Nick- Jack Nicholson? Nicholson, yes, sir. Jack Nicholson, he didn't detach. Nope. He could have seen through that so easily. He could have been like, no, I absolutely would not order that. Imagine if he was calm? Yep. He didn't. That's a perfect example of how we can let this idea bite us.

• 27:55Jocko Willink?

  So if perhaps, what's the Colonel's name in that movie? Jessup. Colonel, if Colonel Jessup, maybe if he would have gone through my land warfare training back in the day. Sir. You'd have been like, oh, I'm about to get flanked by homeboy, by young Tom Cruise. Colonel Jessup would have said, actually, no, negative. There's no way I'd give that order. But instead, he got emotional, he got flanked like a little punk. So imagine how much that happens to us or can happen to us. So that's what we have to learn how to do in everything. And here's a little connection I'm gonna make for you.

• 28:37Jocko Willink?

  There's a connection between being humble and being able to detach.

• 28:45Jocko Willink?

  And the connection is, if you're not humble, if you've got a big ego, you think you're the center of the world. Right? You think you're, you think you are the center of the world. And when you think you're the center of the world, you can't see anyone else's emotions. You can't see anyone else's moves. Their moves don't even mean anything to you because you're just looking at, everything is jocko-centric, eco-centric. It's all about me. So I don't see that you're getting mad. I don't see that you're getting frustrated. And that's what we have to be careful about because if you think you're the most important thing and you've got that gravity, it's pulling everything in.

• 29:30Jocko Willink?

  And, and, and all like other ideas, then they don't make it. Other, they, nothing else can survive this strong gravity that you got. You don't see anything else.

• 29:45Echo Charles?

  What's the difference between detaching and situat-, you know, I say situational awareness, right? What's, I mean, is there a difference?

• 29:53Jocko Willink?

  They're, they're, if they're not the same thing, then they're damn close. I would say, actually, I would, I would say this. Detachment is senior to situational awareness. If you don't, if you're not detached, you're not going to have any situational awareness. If you are detached, you will have much more situational awareness. Detachment is senior because not only am I detached so I can see what's happening in the situation. I'm also aware of my emotions. I'm aware of your emotions. Does a situation include everything? Okay, then they're probably the same thing. If we're saying that situation overall includes your emotions, my emotions, our physical space that we're in, everything that's occurring, if that's the situation, okay, then they're, they're probably pretty close to the same thing.

• 30:37Jocko Willink?

  I, I generally think of situational awareness as to being what's our physical thing that's happening. But it's not too much to, different to say, oh, Echo's a, a possible attacker.

• 30:49Echo Charles?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 30:50Jocko Willink?

  Is he agitated?

• 30:51Echo Charles?

  Yeah.

• 30:52Jocko Willink?

  That would be situational awareness. Oh, I can see he's frustrated. I can see he's, his fists are clenched. Okay, that's all situational awareness. So they're, they're really similar things. But I, I think, I still think detachment is a senior element.

• 31:09Echo Charles?

  Yeah.

• 31:09Jocko Willink?

  Because if you don't have detachment, it ain't happening. You're not gonna have situational awareness at all.

• 31:13Echo Charles?

  Yeah, it feels like most of the times anyway that you bring up detaching is when you're kinda in, when the chaotic situation kinda already started, you know, where it's almost like,

• 31:25Echo Charles?

  I guess you can constantly be detached though, right? I mean, not completely, like how you said, I mean, you know, every time I heard you explain it, you're like, don't go too far with this thing, right? You don't care about nothing or whatever, but uh, seems like detaching, when I imagine it, I guess, is yeah, when something like, happens to kinda escalate or whatever, and then it's like, okay, then you should kinda detach or whatever.

• 31:47Jocko Willink?

  And you know what? Good point. Check this out.

• 31:52Jocko Willink?

  The, the black belt, he's likely not even gonna get the situation to a point where he has to detach, because he's already detached and he sees it coming, he doesn't have to worry about it, because he already outflanked it.

• 32:02Echo Charles?

  That's the game.

• 32:03Jocko Willink?

  That's the game. That's what we're trying to do.

• 32:07Echo Charles?

  Unless he's going up against another black belt.

• 32:09Jocko Willink?

  Unless he's going up against another black belt.

• 32:11Echo Charles?

  Then thus begins the psychological game within the game.

• 32:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and then you end up in straight jujitsu, where how many moves ahead? You know, am I to you? Am I five moves ahead and you're only four? I'm gonna win. If I'm five moves ahead, but you're seven, you're gonna win. That's what's happening. So, there is a connection between the more self-centered we are, the less the rest of the world matters, and therefore it's hard to step outside of your own world.

• 32:43Echo Charles?

  Yeah.

• 32:43Jocko Willink?

  Maybe that's a better way of putting it.

• 32:45Echo Charles?

  Yeah, it seems accurate.

• 32:46Jocko Willink?

  You, you know, uh, for instance, a little kid that loses their temper.

• 32:50Echo Charles?

  Yeah.

• 32:50Jocko Willink?

  Why is that? Because they're, they're the whole world.

• 32:52Echo Charles?

  In the store.

• 32:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, in the store. They don't care about anything else. They want that freaking ice cream cone.

• 32:58Echo Charles?

  Yeah.

• 32:58Jocko Willink?

  That's what's, that's what's up. So they don't care about anything else.

• 33:01Echo Charles?

  Yeah.

• 33:02Jocko Willink?

  And they're not gonna be able to detach at all.

• 33:04Echo Charles?

  Yeah.

• 33:04Jocko Willink?

  And they don't care about anything else. That's when, so the, the younger you are, you're really important. So we have to be careful with that. Here's another little element.

• 33:16Jocko Willink?

  Detachment is what actually allows you to think strategic.

• 33:22Jocko Willink?

  It's what actually allows you to think strategic because

• 33:27Jocko Willink?

  the definition of what I started with of saying, hey, I'm worried about the person that's shooting me right now. That's short-term thinking. Now, do I have to focus on that right now because I'm getting shot at? Yes, I do. The minute I eliminate that threat, I better take a step back and look around and get my platoon into a position where I don't have to worry about threats, so I can see where we need to go next. So unless we are detached, unless you take a minute, you know, if you're in business and every day you show up to work, the phones ring and the emails are coming in, you're solving this problem for a client, you're dealing with operations, you're dealing with sales, you've got all these problems, you're just, that's what you're doing all day? Cool. But you're not detached. And therefore, you're thinking about tactical things that are right in front of you.

• 34:10Jocko Willink?

  And you might win the day tactically, but you look up in six months and you've you've got some issues because you didn't order enough material for the next project and you didn't hire enough, like all these problems are happening, strategic problems are happening. So unless you're able to detach, you're not able to think strategic. So think about how this impacts your life. I mean, this is, this is, you know, from you, Echo Charles, you've said before to me that the most important thing that you've taken away from hanging out with me for the last however many years is thinking strategic instead of tactical. And the way that translates to the civilian world is you think long-term instead of short-term.

• 34:51Jocko Willink?

  And that I agree with you. And we have a, you've heard me say before, and you pulled a clip from one of the musters where a guy asked me, you know, how often should I think strategic? And I said, you should think strategic all the time. Yeah, you said it different, but yeah. Yeah, I was a little more amped at the time, but. If you can't detach, if you don't take a step back, you are not thinking strategic. Yeah. That's why this is like a superpower. Detachment allows you to not focus on the short term. It avoids tactical thinking. Now, it also avoids you getting emotional and making bad decisions because that's when you make bad decisions. Are you guaranteed to make a bad decision where you're emotional? No. But I mean, there's a real good chance. Pretty reliable.

• 35:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's pretty reliable that an emotional decision is not the best decision. It's pretty reliable. Now, does this mean I'm sitting there saying for everyone that's, you know, uh, out there going, oh, you know, he's saying you shouldn't have any emotions. That's actually not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is you shouldn't let your emotions run your decisions.

• 36:02Jocko Willink?

  Control over your emotions does not mean not having emotions.

• 36:08Jocko Willink?

  Cause emotions are important, as we like to say. Yes, sir. Emotions are important.

• 36:16Jocko Willink?

  My emotions are important. My team's emotions are important. My boss's emotions are important. The competitor or the enemy emotions are important. And I, okay, how can they be important? Well, if I, if you're mad about something that you need to do, are you going to do a good job when you do it? If you work for me, are you going to do your best job? If, on the contrary, if you're super excited about something, are you going to do a good job? Yeah. What if you're my enemy and your morale is low and you're emotionally drained? Is it going to be an opportune time to fight you? Yes, it is. What if you're, what if I've done something to your people? And now you're mad and you're going to fight with vengeance? You're angry. Is, is that a good time for me to attack you if you're my enemy? No.

• 37:02Jocko Willink?

  What about my boss? My boss is super angry about something. Is now a good time to present a new solution to? No.

• 37:11Echo Charles?

  Is that like the old classic, um, don't tell your wife to calm down?

• 37:15Jocko Willink?

  That is part of the classic. Don't tell your wife to calm down.

• 37:17Echo Charles?

  Cause like, yeah, she's not, she's emotional, whatever, or and vice versa. This isn't, you know, but the, uh, yeah, when you say, hey, calm down.

• 37:27Jocko Willink?

  That's not a good move.

• 37:28Echo Charles?

  That's not a strategic.

• 37:30Jocko Willink?

  So you can see how emotions play into each one of those elements that I just talked about. Yeah. So I have, oh, and by the way, I have to know my emotions too, right? If I've got some massive task and I know I'm already drained or angry about it. If I've got some delicate, if I'm mad at you and yet I've got to go and discuss a project with you and I'm already mad that you didn't do something, is that a good time for me to go in there and talk to you? No, it's not. So

• 37:59Jocko Willink?

  what I need to do and a way to think the emotions, our own emotions and other people's emotions up, down and across the chain of command need to be in the calculus of our decision making.

• 38:13Jocko Willink?

  That's what I need to do. And a lot of times in current times, this is 2022,

• 38:23Jocko Willink?

  we don't take other people's emotions into our calculus.

• 38:28Jocko Willink?

  So you have to measure.

• 38:33Jocko Willink?

  You have to measure if and how what you are going to say,

• 38:41Jocko Willink?

  how it's going to impact your family, if it's going to impact your family, your team, yourself, you have to measure that. Is it going to make them angry? Is it going to make them upset? Is it going to make them lose motivation? Is it going to crush their morale?

• 38:55Jocko Willink?

  And if you don't put that, if you don't put all the emotional element into the calculus, you're going to get the wrong answer.

• 39:05Jocko Willink?

  And by the way, you won't be able to assess any of these emotions if you're not detached. You won't see your own emotions. You won't see other people's emotions. You won't be like, oh, my wife is mad right now because you're mad. So you don't see them as being mad. And even if you do see them as being mad, you're mad. So you just get madder at them for being mad. What you have to do is be able to detach and get some level of control over your emotions.

• 39:33Jocko Willink?

  So when, when I talk about detaching from your emotions, I'm not talking about having no emotions. And by the way, if you detach from your emotions too much, and now you're interacting with your team, your team just thinks you're a jerk.

• 39:47Jocko Willink?

  That's, that's what's happening. So.

• 39:51Echo Charles?

  Yeah, like you don't care.

• 39:52Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 39:53Echo Charles?

  Like it's a big deal.

• 39:54Jocko Willink?

  Oh, that's a huge deal.

• 39:55Echo Charles?

  Like when your boss doesn't care, is distracted, or just when you have that feeling is what I'm saying.

• 39:59Jocko Willink?

  Yep. Or if you give that feeling to your wife.

• 40:03Echo Charles?

  Oh, yeah.

• 40:04Jocko Willink?

  You know?

• 40:05Echo Charles?

  This is what you're talking about. To me, this is all you're talking about. It's like the, because that kind of is the deal, right? Where you like, you lit every single list item, or everything, every topic you talked about, literally has directly to do. I mean, look, some people not married, I get it. But if you are even girlfriend, boyfriend scenario, whatever, that applies to you and your wife. Hundred percent.

• 40:26Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 40:26Echo Charles?

  It's like the.

• 40:27Jocko Willink?

  And your kids.

• 40:28Echo Charles?

  So the kids, there's, you explain, yeah, you, it's more like, I don't know, it's like, it is the same thing. It's the same format for sure. But and you explain this too, where it's like, your kids are going to be different than like other people, because when you have kids, that's a very unique relationship. It's very unique. They're like, you can't, you can't just switch out one kid for another kid.

• 40:51Jocko Willink?

  And make the connection. You're so close to me. What's the connection?

• 40:54Echo Charles?

  The emotions.

• 40:54Jocko Willink?

  The emotions.

• 40:55Echo Charles?

  Yeah.

• 40:55Jocko Willink?

  Connection. That's what makes it, you know, your emotional attachment to your kids is so strong. It's so strong that you have to be even more cautious in how you, and how you calculate the emotions up and down the chain.

• 41:16Echo Charles?

  So it's kind of like the difference between a muffin and a cupcake.

• 41:18Jocko Willink?

  But I don't know the difference between those two.

• 41:20Echo Charles?

  It's the same thing. One just has more sugar in it.

• 41:23Jocko Willink?

  Is that the truth?

• 41:23Echo Charles?

  I don't know.

• 41:24Jocko Willink?

  Which one has more sugar?

• 41:25Echo Charles?

  Cupcake.

• 41:27Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 41:28Echo Charles?

  See what I'm saying?

• 41:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I guess.

• 41:30Echo Charles?

  The kids have more sugar. They have more emotions.

• 41:32Jocko Willink?

  More emotions.

• 41:32Echo Charles?

  Or involved in the equation, but you handle them the same way.

• 41:36Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 41:36Echo Charles?

  Try not to eat them.

• 41:38Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 41:38Echo Charles?

  Eighty to ninety percent of the time. See what I'm saying?

• 41:40Jocko Willink?

  Yep, yep. So you can't see any of these emotions if you're not detached. So go back to first topic of the day. Take a step back, relax, look around, take a breath, get detached, and then put the emotions, comprehend the emotions, put them into your calculus as you're making decisions, as you're communicating with people, and that's gonna put you in a different, put you in a better scenario. Now, here's another thing that you can utilize for detachment, which is very powerful, not just for detachment, but for life and definitely for leadership. And that is actually listening to what other people are saying.

• 42:25Jocko Willink?

  And I've been saying for a couple of years now, listening is the most underrated skill in leadership.

• 42:32Jocko Willink?

  And I, I, I think I have to take it a little bit further. And I was thinking about a good way to explain listening, because listening doesn't just mean be quiet. Okay, Echo's talking now. As soon as you're done, I'm ready to present my ideas back at you.

• 42:48Jocko Willink?

  I, I don't know where we did this. I think we probably just did this on a Q and a while ago, but people have often asked me, what is my process for reading a book? And I've talked through my process for reading a books and reading a book for the podcast, really. So if I'm reading a book for the podcast, I'm gonna read it actively. It's an active reading. I'm not passively. The words aren't just coming into my head and there they are. And no, I'm actively reading the words. That means I am putting the words into context in my own head, in the story that it is.

• 43:31Jocko Willink?

  And then how my mind understands that story and what the context in the story is, and then how that context fits in my head. Because let's face it, if I'm reading with the old breed, there's context to that story, to that particular sentence, that particular paragraph, that particular word, there's context around it. And it's not just a word, and it's not just a sentence, it's not just a paragraph. There's a whole, there's a whole world there that you have to try and understand, this context that you have to have. And then you have to put it into your own context. And look, you don't have to have been in combat to understand or to, or to put your own context around it.

• 44:12Jocko Willink?

  You go, oh, these guys haven't eaten for six days. Hey, I remember yesterday, I didn't have any lunch, and by the end of the day, I was starving. God, now these guys are at six days, you see what I'm saying? You have to really try and engage your own brain and overlay your own experiences on it. And try and understand and truly put yourself into other people's perspective.

• 44:40Jocko Willink?

  What, what do they know that, that, that I can try and understand? So, so to me, that's active reading.

• 44:49Jocko Willink?

  Really active reading. And that's what we need to do with listening. Actively listen, actively try and understand what you're trying to say. Actively try and understand your perspective. What does Echo know that I don't know right now? How can I actively try and understand what he's saying?

• 45:13Jocko Willink?

  And of course, one of the biggest obstacles to truly listening is having a big, giant ego. And I think Echo doesn't know what he's talking about. You know what I mean? Like, oh, hey, Jaco, you know, I always put my arm, I always put my hips over here on arm. I go, Echo's trying to give me instructions on jiu-jitsu. You know what I'm saying? That's what our ego gets in the way. Because how could anybody possibly know anything more than me?

• 45:41Jocko Willink?

  So we don't really listen. And I think, I think that as we look at society today, there is a lot of talking and not a lot of listening. And it turns into mayhem. And here's the thing.

• 46:03Jocko Willink?

  Talking, no listening, and therefore, no, no bridges, no common ground found, no changes of opinion. People don't change opinion, right? I got my opinion, I'm right, I'm not gonna change my opinion. That's where people are at. That's where the vast majority of people are at.

• 46:20Echo Charles?

  Seems like it, yeah.

• 46:21Jocko Willink?

  Well, I shouldn't even say the vast, that's where the loudest people are at, I guess is worth saying.

• 46:27Echo Charles?

  Yeah.

• 46:29Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, um, I, I think it's an issue.

• 46:32Echo Charles?

  I think it's.

• 46:33Jocko Willink?

  It's a huge issue.

• 46:34Echo Charles?

  I think it's an issue for myself, even, a lot, like, a lot of the time.

• 46:37Jocko Willink?

  It's an issue for everybody, myself, yourself, everybody that's, everybody that's in the world. Is, hey, I kinda know the deal here. I know this. You don't, you're not gonna tell me anything that I don't know.

• 46:47Echo Charles?

  Yeah.

• 46:48Jocko Willink?

  And, and what's horrible about that is, you know, if you were presenting a plan to me for an operation, and I have a difference of opinion than you, and so I, but I don't listen to what you're saying, are we gonna come up with a better plan or a worse plan?

• 47:02Echo Charles?

  Probably worse, yeah.

• 47:03Jocko Willink?

  It's gonna be a worse plan. Whereas if I go, oh, Echo's presenting a plan to me. Let me truly actively listen to what he's saying. Let me see how that fits into the idea that I have. And where's the common ground at what? Oh, and we got some contradictory ideas? Okay, cool. Who's right? And you know what I actually say? How is Echo right? That's the biggest trick right there. When it comes to leadership, one of the biggest tricks in leadership is, how is Echo right? I'm the leader, but how is Echo right? How can I make Echo right? How can I listen to him? How can I make him, how can I give him the, the,

• 47:42Jocko Willink?

  the advantage here? Not how can I prove him wrong? I don't want you to be wrong, I want you to be right. So, that's what we have to do. Now, when we listen, just like reading, when we actively listen, we actively read, ask yourself, or ask them and yourself earnest questions.

• 48:02Jocko Willink?

  Put yourself in their shoes in real life, and this is hard to do. In real life, in real life, truly, how would I feel if I were that person? And you know, sometimes like, uh, you know, Echo, uh, let's see, Echo didn't pay for his phone, he got his phone cut off, right? So I go, what a loser. Like, he, he, I, he, he's an idiot, he deserves it. Yeah. That's as far, like, oh, well, okay, if I was in Echo's shoes and I didn't pay my phone bill and it got cut off, I would think I was a loser. That's like my perspective. Instead of saying, all right, what's the situation he's in? How did he end up here?

• 48:43Jocko Willink?

  What doesn't he understand about the world that I understand? How come he doesn't understand those things? How, that's what, that's what it is. It's like, it takes effort. Yeah. It takes effort to get there. Instead of just writing it off, and I put, I take my entire worldview, and I take your little chunk of experience that you had by not paying your phone bill, and I go, oh, in my worldview, you're a loser. Yeah. That's true. And so then what, what, how can I help you? I can't. Yeah. I can't help you. I can't help myself. I can't help anybody else. All I say is, oh, anyone that does that's a loser. It doesn't solve anything. So that, that's what I think is a, is a huge,

• 49:28Jocko Willink?

  a huge piece for us is, as a leader and as a person. And look, those two terms for me are kind of interchangeable. I don't know, that sounds crazy. But as, uh, this is something that I started saying, I think, when Leadership Strategy and Tactics came out, which is, if you interact with other human beings, Yeah. you're in a leadership position. Doesn't matter if, it doesn't matter if you're, it doesn't matter if you're the boss, Yeah. and I'm the subordinate, and I'm the only subordinate you have, I'm still in a leadership position. Yeah. It doesn't matter if I have one peer. And we, and I don't see you, even though you're the boss and I have one peer, I'm still in a leadership position.

• 50:12Jocko Willink?

  If you interact with other people, you're in a leadership position because you're trying to lead them

• 50:18Jocko Willink?

  to do the right thing, to move in the right direction. And does this mean you're always like trying to influence? No, because I might be like, oh, Echo's giving me some direction. It seems like a good call. Cool. I'm going to go execute. I don't need to like, whoa, hold on, let me give you my perspective. No, no, I'm not talking about that at all. Am I trying to build a relationship with you? Yes, I am. Am I trying to build a relationship so that I can better support you in the future? If you happen to tell me something to do, that doesn't make sense? Sure.

• 50:42Echo Charles?

  Yeah, it's good that you differentiate pretty often to the difference between the, and what you call the traditional leader. And you know, but what's the other one? You don't have a term for the other one.

• 50:51Jocko Willink?

  Oh, no, I certainly do. The silent leader.

• 50:53Echo Charles?

  Silent leader. Yeah, you're right. So, okay, so in, even though you don't talk about that part, we just, we just mentioned like, um, but usually it's kind of like, uh, the silent leader is more of like sort of an maybe influencer type, not influencer like how we know it today, but uh, like, you know, someone who just wants to influence people to do the right thing for everybody essentially. Right? And then the traditional leader is the guy who wants to be the boss and wants everyone to listen to what they say.

• 51:21Jocko Willink?

  Everyone listen to me.

• 51:22Echo Charles?

  Yeah.

• 51:23Jocko Willink?

  Which is the opposite of everything I just talked about, which I'm saying if you're a leader, you'd be listening.

• 51:26Echo Charles?

  Yes, exactly right. But I think that even the word leader, and I've said this before, where the word leader feels like it, the, like the boss that, because there are people like that.

• 51:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it feels like the traditional.

• 51:39Echo Charles?

  Yeah. And because there's people like that, like we all know somebody, at least one person, probably, you know, 20 people who are like that, where it's like, yeah, you can tell they want to always take charge. They want, they always want people to listen to them. They always want to do it their way, you know, kind of thing. And you know, for better or worse or whatever. It's, I'm just saying that that's when you think of the word leader, that's kind of what you think of automatically in one way or another.

• 52:02Jocko Willink?

  Absolutely. That's one of the. One of the, I guess, long-term campaigns for me as a human being on earth is to convince people and, and let them know that even if you're a brand-new guy in a SEAL platoon, you're in a leadership position. A brand-new guy with no experience, you're in a leadership position. Even if you're a brand-new construction worker with no experience, you're in a leadership position. Even if you're a lineman out there, you're an apprentice lineman, you have no skills, you're in a leadership position.

• 52:32Echo Charles?

  So, of the four laws of, here's the thing, there's no escaping, unless you're a hermit, you're a leader. So, there's no escaping it, unless you may be a newborn baby, I don't know. But, and this is, this is, this is what I gathered, you know, on the, listening to you guys. So, you know the fourth law of combat, right? Decentralized command, as we know as decentralized. And the, what is that, the tagline or whatever, "Everybody leads," right? So, even if you are the leader, designated, across the, you're the boss even, you're the buyout of company, whatever, you're the dad of the family, whatever, whatever. You are the straight-up boss. But decentralized command, which is laws of combat, says, "Everybody leads."

• 53:15Echo Charles?

  So, even the people who are subordinate to you, quote-unquote, they have to lead. And whose job is it for, for them to know how to lead? Your job.

• 53:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 53:24Echo Charles?

  So, everyone's a leader, no matter if you're the boss or not. Like, you can be the new guy, whatever, and most of us aren't the new guy in a SEAL platoon, I'll tell you that. You may or may not know that, but, some, most of us are not. But, like, if you're just the new guy at work, or you're the youngest brother, or, you know, you're the, you know, I've heard, and I have this scenario, I'm gonna call it hypothetical, even though it might not be hypothetical, it's not me that's true, but it's someone, some people I know, where the husband feels a little bit, um, what do you call it, like, emasculated sometimes. And not by any abuse or anything like that, but it's just, I, I think it's like a classic case of, um, you know, what you hear, like, the husband's always trying to, like, "Happy

• 54:06Echo Charles?

  wife, happy life," kind of a thing, and maybe went too far with it, and maybe now he finds himself in a position where he's like, he's just responding and doing everything that the wife says, and the wife doesn't seem happy, kind of a scenario.

• 54:20Echo Charles?

  I feel like with this attitude that like if you understand hundred percent, hundred percent, not just like my situation. Sure, I guess I could kind of if you understand hundred percent that you are essentially you have the responsibility to be the leader. And I'm not saying be the boss, not saying it always feels like that ends up being absolutely correct as far as solving any problems within any interpersonal relationship.

• 54:48Jocko Willink?

  So let me just restate your your comment there. What you're saying is no matter where I am in a relationship, in a platoon, in a business, in a marriage.

• 55:02Jocko Willink?

  If my attitude is I'm I'm in a leadership position, I'm going to lead through this problem.

• 55:08Echo Charles?

  The silent leader way.

• 55:09Jocko Willink?

  That's going to be a positive thing.

• 55:11Echo Charles?

  Yes, sir.

• 55:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you are correct.

• 55:12Echo Charles?

  Absolutely like it's.

• 55:14Jocko Willink?

  That's why at Echelon Front, that's why we say leadership is the solution.

• 55:17Echo Charles?

  Yes.

• 55:18Jocko Willink?

  And it doesn't matter what the problem is.

• 55:19Echo Charles?

  Yeah.

• 55:22Jocko Willink?

  Wife's not happy, leadership problem on on me, by the way.

• 55:26Echo Charles?

  Yeah.

• 55:26Jocko Willink?

  On me. Now, look, could can you occasionally get a miserable scenario?

• 55:33Echo Charles?

  Yeah.

• 55:33Jocko Willink?

  Where, oh, the wife is well, there's probably and actually what you end up there is if you if you break that down from a leadership perspective, you're probably not aligned in your marriage.

• 55:42Echo Charles?

  Yeah.

• 55:43Jocko Willink?

  Because that's the one kind of killer. There's one that's a one killer. So when I say leadership is a solution, leadership is the solution to all your problems. There's one problem that leadership is the solution for, but you're not going to solve the problem. That is alignment. That is, we are not going to the same place.

• 56:03Echo Charles?

  Yeah.

• 56:04Jocko Willink?

  So if your business partner is going in one direction, like to a different place, and you're going in another direction and it's a different place, you're going to have a really, you won't be able to make decisions that are unified. If your wife.

• 56:23Jocko Willink?

  You know, if your wife wants to, uh, you know, have twenty kids and you don't want to have any, you're not gonna be able, you're not gonna be able to work it out. There's no working that out, right? You are heading to a different place. You're going to a different world, right? You're going to two totally different places. Vice versa is true too. You wanna, wait, what did I say? Your wife wants to have twenty kids? If it's the opposite, it's the same thing. You, you wanna have twenty kids, your wife doesn't have any? You're gonna have a problem. It's gonna be a difficult situation. You're probably, you're not aligned. If one person wants to have a software company and I wanna, you know, you and I start designing a little computer game thing.

• 57:08Jocko Willink?

  And then you say, hey, we should start building these in a factory after we make three of them by ourselves. And I say, no, let's just contract someone to do that. We should just make the software. And you go, no, no, we should make the hardware. And I say, no, we should make the software. And if you and I can't agree, we're heading to two different places. We're gonna have two different companies and you need to go do yours and I need to go do mine. So where leadership plays into that is I need to be able to identify where are we actually going? What is our goal? And here's the thing, in most companies, you can find alignment. That's why people say we're not aligned. I go, oh, hold on a minute. Oh, you got a company, you know, you got Acme freaking mousetraps, right? Echo's got Acme mousetraps.

• 57:51Jocko Willink?

  And he says, oh, people on my team aren't aligned. Okay, what, do they not wanna be able to make money? No, of course they wanna make money. Do they, do they, does everyone on the team wanna make money? Yes, everyone on the team wants to make money. Does everybody on the team wanna make a good mousetrap? Yes, everybody on the team wants to make a good mousetrap. Does everyone wanna serve the client? Yes. Cause if we serve the client, we'll sell them mousetraps. So you can usually find, you can take any company. And most of the ninety nine, this is a big percentage, ninety nine percent of the time, there's alignment. And in the rare one percent, we're not aligned. And you actually don't wanna ma- make mousetraps. Or you don't wanna manufacture mousetraps, let's say.

• 58:32Jocko Willink?

  I wanna build a factory and manufacture mousetraps and all you wanna do is market them. And you don't want any of this factory stuff. You don't wanna hire a bunch of people. You just wanna get them shipped from overseas. You and I are gonna have a problem. We're not aligned. We're not aligned. I want to build a manufacturing company. You want to build a marketing company. And we're adamant about it. Now, look, we might be able to find alignment and say, hey, you know what? If we build, manufacture them, and then you market them well, we kind of on the same page.

• 59:02Jocko Willink?

  But if your true goal is not to manufacture anything, and my true goal is to, we're gonna have a problem. So alignment is one of the most critical things there are. In order to get there, guess what? I gotta listen to what you have to say. Yep.

• 59:18Jocko Willink?

  And if we're not aligned, we're gonna have a problem.

• 59:23Jocko Willink?

  So we gotta pay attention to that. And, and this, this brings me to the last thing I wanted to talk about today.

• 59:29Jocko Willink?

  And this is something, you know, I've, I probably used, I probably focused on it a little bit more a few years ago. With a simple statement that you'll recognize when I say this, free your mind, right? We had, we had, we did all kinds of things where I said, free your mind. I'm occasionally like post like free your mind. Sure. Cause our mind, our minds tend, have a tendency to be closed. And not just to be closed, but to be closing. So that's the way our human minds are. In general, they tend to be closed and closing. So they're, they're already closed up and they're trying to close even more. Why is that? Well, it's safer. It's, it's easier. Yeah.

• 1:00:12Jocko Willink?

  I'm, I'm, I'm not learning anything. There's no risk. There's nothing to misunderstand. It's just easier across the board. If I just close up my mind, I don't have to accept anything new. I'm safe here. I'm used to it.

• 1:00:26Jocko Willink?

  We also have our ego involved. And our ego is, is keeping that mind shut. Because I don't want to have to admit that I'm wrong. I don't want to have to tell anybody else that they're right. I don't want to look like I don't know all the answers, so I stay in my own little world.

• 1:00:48Jocko Willink?

  You know, it's like, oh, I'm a boxer, so I'm not gonna do jujitsu.

• 1:00:53Jocko Willink?

  Remember those days? Like, no boxing, oh, you try and take me out, I'm just gonna knock you out. Remember those days? Like, it's crazy talk now, but that was a real thing. Well, I don't have to learn jujitsu, I'll just knock you out. Okay, how'd that work out, bro? But that's a closed mind, and that's ego, thinking, oh, I don't need to learn anything new. I have all the answers. Oh, I got, I got that uppercut, son. And no, look, I love boxing. Boxing is an awesome form of self-defense that everybody should learn how to box. You should absolutely learn how to box. There's two, you know, your, your fists are great weapons. You should also learn Muay Thai, cuz your elbows and your knees are good weapons as well. You should also learn wrestling, cuz you gotta be able to. So you see where I'm going with this?

• 1:01:38Jocko Willink?

  But there was a time where strikers, boxers, kickboxers would say, oh, I don't need to learn jujitsu, cuz I'll just knock you out. And that was just arrogance and ego. And, and part of it is also might have been just ignorance, not just arrogance, but ignorance. Cuz, cuz you think, oh, someone's gonna charge at me, I'll just knock him out. Man, that's so much harder than you think.

• 1:02:01Echo Charles?

  Yeah, I'm sure there was a lot to that. There was, there's a thing called sunk cost fallacy.

• 1:02:07Jocko Willink?

  Oh, for sure, for sure.

• 1:02:08Echo Charles?

  So, yeah, and that's what Horian Gracie, one of the founders of jujitsu, that's what he would say, where it's like, it's a, it's a painful realization when you realize that you spent 20, sometimes 30 years at this, effortful, just hard work, you know, doing this art, yeah. And then, without it being proved to you, like, you're not gonna admit that it was a mistake, you just can't do it, you have too much invested in it, you know?

• 1:02:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that was, that was a very, you wanna talk about a very hard thing to have happen to you? Is you've been training whatever martial art, whatever, and they use this, they use the term traditional martial art? So you've been training a traditional martial art, take your pick, for 24 years, and like you said, hard training. You've memorized the kata, you've done the drills, you've done the, the, the sparring even.

• 1:03:06Jocko Willink?

  And then, so you're, you're 20 years deep, 25 years deep, you've competed even, competed. And you've, you've knocked people out and stuff. And you've won, you've been a champion, all these things. And then all of a sudden, someone comes in and says, none of that's gonna work.

• 1:03:23Echo Charles?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:24Jocko Willink?

  And by the way, it's, it's gonna work, what I do is gonna work 10 times out of 10. Like that's what, that's what my percentages are. So you're a, you're a, you're a boxer and I'm a jujitsu guy. I'm gonna take you down and choke you 10 times in a row. It seems unbelievable, right? They go a hundred times, maybe someone gets a, gets a puncher's chance and someone gets knocked out, right? But I can, I can law of averages, say you're a hundred percent boxer and I'm a jujitsu guy. 10 times out of 10. So if you, you and I go, okay, cool, let's go again. You try and knock me out, you're getting taken down, you're getting choked, let's go again. You're getting, you try and knock me out, you're gonna get takedown choked out. That's what's happening.

• 1:04:07Jocko Willink?

  So that was a really hard, hard fact to face. And it happened, it happened across the country as jujitsu blue belts. Blue belts were dojo storming, like walking into, walking into traditional martial arts studio, I'll take anybody in here.

• 1:04:24Echo Charles?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:24Jocko Willink?

  And then double leg, double leg, you know, cross side, the people even know what the guard was. It wasn't like they were getting in the guard, they were just mounting and choking.

• 1:04:33Echo Charles?

  Yeah. Yeah, and that, and now it's kind of the, especially, I mean nowadays is different, cuz.

• 1:04:39Jocko Willink?

  It's totally different.

• 1:04:40Echo Charles?

  You know, like, and here's kinda, in a way, it's kinda more the same though, right? Where, where, okay, so you look, look at the UFC, right? The pinnacle of, like nowadays, it's not, UFC one is different than UFC now.

• 1:04:51Jocko Willink?

  Oh.

• 1:04:51Echo Charles?

  So UFC one was this art.

• 1:04:54Jocko Willink?

  Style versus style.

• 1:04:56Echo Charles?

  This style versus this style.

• 1:04:57Jocko Willink?

  Actually, you know what, you're right, it wasn't just style versus, it was art versus art. Because even in jujitsu, we have different styles of jujitsu.

• 1:05:04Echo Charles?

  Yeah, that's true too.

• 1:05:05Jocko Willink?

  And so it was literally a jujitsu practitioner against a boxer.

• 1:05:09Echo Charles?

  Right.

• 1:05:10Jocko Willink?

  Or a wrestler against an Aikido guy.

• 1:05:13Echo Charles?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:14Jocko Willink?

  Or whatever, you name, and it was art against art.

• 1:05:16Echo Charles?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:05:16Jocko Willink?

  And they didn't even really calculate the fact that there's a huge difference between somebody that wrestled in high school, somebody that wrestled in college, and somebody that wrestled in the Olympics. Or someone that did judo at the judo club, someone that did judo. In college and someone that did judo on the Olympic stage. There's a huge difference between, but they didn't really calculate that.

• 1:05:37Echo Charles?

  Yeah, not really. And I guess I'm just maybe speaking on what actually played itself out, right? So UFC one and before UFC one, there was Gracie in action, the Gracie in action tapes, right? Which was essentially one on one challenge.

• 1:05:52Jocko Willink?

  I have James's, James, if you're out there listening right now, I have your Gracie in action tapes.

• 1:05:59Echo Charles?

  Whereas I, and if you don't know what that is, what it is, is essentially guys would come in doubting the, this new jujitsu thing. They're like, oh, I would beat them, you know? And the Gracys, they would say, yeah, you can come and challenge any one of our guys or whatever. And then after so many people responded to that challenge, they started taping it. And they would just beat these guys up. Not bad. It wasn't a bully situation. It was literally like to prove to them that, hey, this way is better at fighting. That's it. It's not like, yo, we're gonna kill everyone or nothing like that. So just time after time after time. And then if you see it, you can see the guy, and this is on a bunch of them too, where the guy would be like, oh, like, almost like he's saying that didn't count. Like, he didn't get it. Yeah.

• 1:06:40Jocko Willink?

  I, I have personally experienced that.

• 1:06:42Echo Charles?

  Oh, yeah, that's a common thing.

• 1:06:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I was lucky because I was doing jujitsu, kind of like legitimately doing jujitsu before it was popular at all. So I kind of had some of those Gracie in action experiences where guys were just confused, like just legitimately. And I found that usually three or four submissions, before they even start to comprehend what's happening. Like the first one, they're just baffled. You know, you, you're going against a wrestler, you're going against a boxer. Wrestlers would get especially confused because it just didn't make sense of what just happened. Like a boxer, I guess a boxer would be so confused. They're like, wait, what are we doing on the ground? What, why am I

• 1:07:24Jocko Willink?

  down there? Is this fighting? This isn't fighting. How can you knock me out when we're, oh, they just, you just got your arm broke or you just got tapped out. Wrestlers would be, it would be confusing to them because they don't even understand how these body positions that they've learned and that they've won. And that they seem to have so much control, all of a sudden they're not working and they're getting tapped out. But yeah, so like the first submission is total disbelief. They're like, it's confusion and disbelief and then, okay, let's go again. Because they think, oh, I, I will keep my, I won't let them grab my arm.

• 1:07:59Echo Charles?

  Yeah, exactly, exactly.

• 1:08:00Jocko Willink?

  And they don't let you grab their arm and then you choke them.

• 1:08:02Echo Charles?

  Yeah, and that's how, how Horin describes it. In those, in a lot of those videos is, it's like you can't, they can't accept it, right? So they're, so they'll be like, oh, wait, I just need to go harder. Like I maybe was taking it easy on him, maybe I gotta focus a little bit more, you know?

• 1:08:18Jocko Willink?

  Go faster, go harder.

• 1:08:20Echo Charles?

  Yeah, exactly right. But just like I said, if you don't know jujitsu, if you don't know the positions, you're just sort of on the ground. Like you don't know, like even, like the difference between garden and half guard. If you don't know what any of that even is, there's no difference.

• 1:08:34Jocko Willink?

  There's no difference between guard, mount, nothing, there's no difference.

• 1:08:36Echo Charles?

  You will not remember it.

• 1:08:37Jocko Willink?

  You have no idea what's happening.

• 1:08:38Echo Charles?

  If you're on the bottom, you'll remember versus if you're not on the bottom. Okay, there is that, but in jujitsu, that part doesn't matter as much. See what I'm saying? So it's backwards almost if you know jujitsu versus if you, if you, if you don't. So these guys would be just confused the whole time. And then all of a sudden they're getting choked and then if you don't know how it happens, you're just like, oh, we just sort of wound up like that. So it seems kind of like a lucky position. We fell on the ground, it was a scramble and you just, you know, ended up that way. Meaning, meanwhile, since they know, they knew jujitsu, they're methodically, specifically placing these guys in this position, then this position, then this position, then they can choke. And then they do it every, like one time after another, after another, and then finally the guy accepts it. Now, and you, this is back in the Gracian action days. So UFC one, you don't have that luxury to be like, hey, let's do it again.

• 1:09:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:24Echo Charles?

  But still, nobody knew what was going on.

• 1:09:26Jocko Willink?

  What's happening.

• 1:09:27Echo Charles?

  Now, keep in mind, the difference between back then and today is back then, no one knew jujitsu at all. They only knew their karate, they only knew their, you know, kickboxing, they only knew their art. Now everyone knows everything.

• 1:09:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:39Echo Charles?

  In one way or another, like if you say, hey, show me mount, probably, of course, mount, that's basic, everyone knows mount. I don't, this can be literally a karate guy.

• 1:09:47Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:47Echo Charles?

  Like remember Leota Masita, right? When I was like, oh, see karate does work and all the karate guys were like, yes. We were saying this for years, we always knew karate. We're like, bro, Leota Masita's black belt in jujitsu.

• 1:09:56Jocko Willink?

  He's a black belt.

• 1:09:57Echo Charles?

  Yeah, and he's, and he's probably black belt level in a bunch of other things, you know? So it's just a different landscape. That's not the proving ground from, for art versus art anymore.

• 1:10:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, even I just made people mad just now, three minutes ago, when I said, well, A boxer against a Jiu Jitsu, there's still some people out there that are like, "Bruh, I just knocked this dude out when he came in on me." There's still people like that right now, even having the incredible vast source of knowledge. And again, I love boxing. Everyone should train boxing, 100%. Boxing is a brutal martial art and it's an incredible martial art. But if you're a pure boxer and you're going up against a Jiu Jitsu guy, you're gonna get choked out. I regret to inform you. So here's the thing.

• 1:10:47Jocko Willink?

  This is why I talk about opening up your mind. Because even when you choke someone, their mind doesn't want to open up. You then you arm lock them, their mind doesn't want to open up. Then you foot lock them, their mind still, they're still thinking like what you're saying, they're still like, "No." Their mind, this is such a good example of how people's minds, how all of our minds wants to be closed. Because our ego's keeping it shut, we want to be in that safe area. We've got the sunk costs into what we've already done and what we already believe. And that is a problem. It's a problem for the world. So what we have to do, and I've been explaining this to people.

• 1:11:30Jocko Willink?

  For, at Echelon Front, I've been explaining this to people. We actually have to pry open our minds. We have to pry open our minds. You have to be, you have to force yourself to listen. You have to force yourself not just to listen, but to actually hear what other people are saying. You have to force yourself to consider other ideas. And honestly, the way that I force myself to consider other ideas is I want to use your idea. That's my goal. My goal is I want Echo to be right. When Echo says, "Hey, I've got a plan for how to do this," my goal is to say, "That sounds good. Let's use your plan. How can I help you make this work?"

• 1:12:15Jocko Willink?

  When my subordinate comes to me with a plan and says, "Hey, Jocko, this is what I think we should do," my goal is to use it. When you present an idea to me about... Uh, politics, or music, or a video. My goal is to say, okay. How can I be on board with what you just said? How can I, how can I support you? And that's what I do to try and pry my brain open. Because our minds are naturally closed and they are closing. So even when your mind gets opened up a little bit, it's still trying to close back up. That's what it's trying to do. It's pride open and it closes back up. That's what it's trying to do.

• 1:12:57Jocko Willink?

  We have to work very hard to pry it open and then keep it open to new ideas.

• 1:13:03Echo Charles?

  You know how like, in regards to like using the other person's plan? Or you know, like pursuing that as like a, as a way? How does that? Oh, should I say, how does that justify? You know, cause you know how sometimes, and again, I'm thinking about maybe with your friends when you're young or you know, with your wife or something. And it's like, hey, what are we doing for dinner? Or where are we gonna go eat? And then it's like, I don't know, where do you wanna go? I don't know where you wanna go. Right, you get that scenario, it happens sometimes, right? So how do you reconcile using the other person's plan in general? Versus making the decision yourself, kind of a scenario?

• 1:13:36Jocko Willink?

  No, I mean, look, just like anything, there's a dichotomy. And if I say to my wife, where do you wanna go to for dinner? And she says, I don't care where do you wanna go? And I say, oh, I'm actually open for anything. I, I had a late lunch, so I'm not that hungry. And I know you haven't eaten today, so whatever you want is good with me. And then she says, no, I, you make the call. Right, I mean, how long may I do that for? Before I say, cool, sounds like we're going to Raglan's, right? Right, and then she's gonna go, I, I didn't want that. Okay, cool, what did you want then? I actually wanted whatever.

• 1:14:07Echo Charles?

  So would it be, based off that hypothetical scenario? Would it be actually even wiser to have not just? Maybe like three to four different options, maybe pre-contemplated?

• 1:14:21Echo Charles?

  That kind of follow her interests a little bit too.

• 1:14:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, uh, you know, you can, you can. She's wanting to make you feel like it was your call. So then you just say, hey, how about we go to whatever? The, the place that you know she likes and she goes, oh, okay, that'd be great. Cool. We're done. We're good. Yes. No big deal. So moving on.

• 1:14:44Echo Charles?

  Uh, cause I feel like.

• 1:14:45Jocko Willink?

  I don't even want to read that much into this. We don't, I don't want to make this into that big of a deal.

• 1:14:48Echo Charles?

  Well, I feel like it kind of can be sometimes. That's the thing.

• 1:14:50Jocko Willink?

  It definitely can be.

• 1:14:52Echo Charles?

  And not so much the restaurant thing. I'm saying in general. So like, you know how, okay, so here's a common thing in, um, in my household where, you know, you know, it becomes four thirty, five o'clock, right? So here comes Mrs. Charles saying, hey, what are you thinking for dinner? Now, usually that's her jam. Usually she kind of, hey, I'm thinking this for dinner. I'm always pretty much always gonna be like, good. You know why? Because I don't have any preference. I don't want to make that decision. I'm thinking about other stuff. To be honest, is it a big deal? No, it's not a big deal, but I am thinking about this stuff. It makes it a lot easier for my brain. As feeble as it may be to not have to make that decision.

• 1:15:31Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 1:15:32Echo Charles?

  Now, I do understand that sometimes she's in that same boat too, because she was thinking about a lot of stuff and sometimes, not all the time, actually, not most of the time, but sometimes she doesn't want to make that decision as well. She'll make the dinner.

• 1:15:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:44Echo Charles?

  But she doesn't have to, oh, think something up that everyone's gonna like and I, and I understand, right? So that's the thing. It can be a thing. So sometimes people do just want you to make the decision.

• 1:15:55Jocko Willink?

  Cool. Make one. No big deal.

• 1:15:57Echo Charles?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:57Jocko Willink?

  No, that's.

• 1:15:59Echo Charles?

  But I'm just saying.

• 1:16:00Jocko Willink?

  You gotta balance. I hate, I hate to go this hard and spend this much time, but like, if my wife says to me, know where do you want to go?

• 1:16:10Echo Charles?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:11Jocko Willink?

  And I say where I actually wanna go. And she doesn't wanna go there. I can just look at her face and be like, oh, that that's a bad call. So I'm probably gonna say, actually, I feel like going to name one of her three favorite restaurants and then we're good to go.

• 1:16:25Echo Charles?

  There you go. See, but that takes some pre-contemplation. You gotta know.

• 1:16:28Jocko Willink?

  I don't have like a bunch of different restaurants. Either one of us doesn't have some big list. The funny thing about my wife is she'll be like, she'll she'll stray from the from the lesson learned, which the lesson learned to me is, the lesson learned to me is, I'm going to a restaurant that I already know. That I already know what I'm gonna get, and I'm gonna get what I already know. Like, that's my, that's what I'm doing. I'm going to the restaurant that I know, and I'm gonna get what I already know. My wife will sometimes, well, she needs to relearn the lesson. Which is, oh, she wanna try this new place. So I'll go to a new place with her. And then as soon as she takes her first bite of the main course, she's looking at me like lesson learned again, right?

• 1:17:12Jocko Willink?

  Cause let's face it, now occasionally do you find a winner?

• 1:17:18Jocko Willink?

  Restaurant to put in the mix? Could find that new restaurant to put in the mix. What do you mean?

• 1:17:23Echo Charles?

  I, okay, okay, okay. I'm not saying whatever, like that's not true, cause it's probably true, but I'm saying.

• 1:17:27Jocko Willink?

  What do you mean it's probably? How often do you go to restaurants, you're like, oh, wow, put this one in the mix?

• 1:17:33Echo Charles?

  Me? I don't, I don't, I don't know.

• 1:17:36Jocko Willink?

  You'd just be going to hundreds of restaurants. You'd have a list of hundreds of restaurants that you'd be going to all the time. Cause every restaurant you go to is just in the mix now.

• 1:17:43Echo Charles?

  Yeah, to me, all sushi restaurants with the exception of two are in the mix. Yeah, that's true. But my point is.

• 1:17:49Jocko Willink?

  But hold on, hold on. There, is there a hierarchy? See? So why, if, why would you not go one of the top three to five at the most?

• 1:17:58Echo Charles?

  Oh, there's, there's, the hierarchy isn't based on like, how good it is.

• 1:18:04Echo Charles?

  Close to my house, if I'm getting delivery, maybe some price scenarios and you know, all this stuff. That's how the hierarchy is based.

• 1:18:10Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so the hierarchy is there. So why are you playing around?

• 1:18:13Echo Charles?

  Because that's not the point. The point isn't what I do specifically necessarily, what you do specifically, cause we're both in unique situations, I think. I'm saying generally.

• 1:18:22Jocko Willink?

  You don't think there's other dudes out there that go out for dinner with their wives sometimes? That makes us unique?

• 1:18:26Echo Charles?

  Oh, that part isn't. The part that you freaking, you got your one restaurant and your wife is that certain like way that's, I think the typical person. There's more to it than that. That's what I think.

• 1:18:38Jocko Willink?

  You know, I know that I'm not normal, right?

• 1:18:41Echo Charles?

  I know that too.

• 1:18:42Jocko Willink?

  I know. So I know that it's not normal to just be like, oh, I want to go to the same three restaurants over and over again and get the same exact food, by the way.

• 1:18:50Echo Charles?

  Yeah, I do the same thing.

• 1:18:51Jocko Willink?

  There's so rare that I have the, I can't even remember the last time I thought to myself, oh, it'd be great to go out and try something new.

• 1:18:59Echo Charles?

  Okay.

• 1:18:59Jocko Willink?

  So there's probably some psychologist doing an assessment right now as I'm talking and figuring out like, oh, he's got fear of whatever. And I don't think so. I think I just, when I'm gonna go out and I'm gonna invest, like, I already don't want to get in a car. I don't want to drive somewhere. I don't want to go wait. I don't want to put on shoes or whatever. Yeah, I'd rather just be barefoot, right? So why are we doing this? Well, we're doing this because whatever. It's a good night. You know, my wife doesn't feel like whatever. We didn't, whatever. She doesn't feel like whatever.

• 1:19:31Echo Charles?

  Okay.

• 1:19:31Jocko Willink?

  So we're gonna go out somewhere. So I'm gonna go somewhere that I know.

• 1:19:34Echo Charles?

  Yeah, that's cool.

• 1:19:35Jocko Willink?

  I'm gonna get something that I already know.

• 1:19:37Echo Charles?

  Good for you, for real. It's unusable for the typical person is what I'm saying.

• 1:19:41Jocko Willink?

  Hey, let me ask you this, because I don't eat sushi. How much variance is there?

• 1:19:45Echo Charles?

  In one sushi restaurant?

• 1:19:47Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, quality, quantity.

• 1:19:49Echo Charles?

  Big variance.

• 1:19:50Jocko Willink?

  So, bro, how can you say that you're not, like, you got your top three?

• 1:19:54Echo Charles?

  Because the variance, I don't care that much about.

• 1:19:56Jocko Willink?

  Okay, how often are you like, oh, cool, there's, there's another one over here. Let's go, let's go order from that one we've never been to before.

• 1:20:02Echo Charles?

  Not for the purpose of that it's new. So I agree with you in that scenario, but this is what I am saying, though. Where, let's say, okay, have you ever heard of the concept, the idea, and I know you have, by the way, of someone say, hey, let's try something new. Hey, we always go there.

• 1:20:20Jocko Willink?

  That's my wife, all day.

• 1:20:22Echo Charles?

  That's a lot of people's wives, and that's my point. So sometimes they want to try something new, but they don't want, but sometimes they don't want that beef of that decision. They want you to make the decision.

• 1:20:31Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah. So, so, so sometimes just for the, just for the sake of it, just to get some leadership capital going.

• 1:20:38Echo Charles?

  Yes.

• 1:20:38Jocko Willink?

  Hey, let's try something new. We went to a joint the other day that was new. I know what? It was, my wife, my wife was all excited.

• 1:20:45Echo Charles?

  Yep.

• 1:20:45Jocko Willink?

  Like, we got in a car. We drove somewhere.

• 1:20:48Echo Charles?

  Okay.

• 1:20:48Jocko Willink?

  And she was E A E, man. E A E.

• 1:20:52Echo Charles?

  What is E A E?

• 1:20:53Jocko Willink?

  Everybody's all excited. So she was E A E on this, right? And I'm like, okay, so we went up there and we got in there and it was like. It was uh, and it was fine. And, and now we're driving back after finding parking, after driving up there, finding parking, getting sat down, you know, figuring out the menu and, and you were driving, now we're, now we drive home. And I'm like, do you ever want to go back there? She's like, no.

• 1:21:20Echo Charles?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:21Jocko Willink?

  So think about that, bro.

• 1:21:22Echo Charles?

  But that doesn't mean that it was, it's a bad way to think.

• 1:21:25Jocko Willink?

  Adventure, right? Okay. So basically you're hitting me. What you're hitting me with is I need to open my mind.

• 1:21:30Echo Charles?

  No, no, no.

• 1:21:30Jocko Willink?

  No, no, that's true. You should use that as a flank. You can flank me right now. Tell me, Jaco, you know what? You just need to open your mind. You need to pry your brain open and get some more different food.

• 1:21:38Echo Charles?

  Okay. Well, I, at this point in my life, I'm very uncomfortable telling you what you should do, Jaco.

• 1:21:44Jocko Willink?

  I need help.

• 1:21:45Echo Charles?

  However, I'm, I'm actually with you with the same restaurant, same exact thing. Brother sushi restaurant that I call, pretty much every time I get sushi, unless it's the days that they're not open. Literally, and this is literally, I'll call, they know my phone number on the caller ID. It doesn't even say Echo. It just says my number. Oh, hi Echo. I say, I want this, I want this one, this. And they're like, yeah, like they know, like, oh, no keep come on this. They, they know the, the thing. In fact, there was a new girl there. She's not new anymore. Shout out to Jocelyn, by the way. Um, and she'd be like, oh, uh, she took my order, got it wrong. The sushi chef got it right on his own. That's how insane stuff.

• 1:22:24Jocko Willink?

  You made it in the world because of that right there. You said that with a lot of pride, bro. You're like, oh, a lot of pride.

• 1:22:29Echo Charles?

  That is not the point. The point is, I'm with you on the whole. I go to the same spot and get the exact same thing every single time. Hundred percent. My, my question was, which you answered, by the way, with your, your, uh, your anecdote is sometimes.

• 1:22:47Echo Charles?

  You, sure, as a tradition, not traditional, as a silent leader, you want to go with the other person's plan. But sometimes they don't want that beef of you coming, coming up with a plan. So you better have a plan. And it better not be the same exact plan sometimes.

• 1:23:01Jocko Willink?

  But here's the thing. My wife knows that if she asks me for a plan, she knows where we're going. We're just going to, you know, we're going to Raglan. What up? But hey, here's the other thing. We already talked about this. I. Have to calculate the emotions in the situation.

• 1:23:15Echo Charles?

  Yes, sir.

• 1:23:16Jocko Willink?

  So if my wife's like, oh, you know, it's been a long week. I really just want to do something nice tonight. You know what that means? That means she wants to like go to somewhere maybe we haven't been for a big risk for me.

• 1:23:26Echo Charles?

  Yes, sir.

• 1:23:26Jocko Willink?

  I know what I gotta calculate my, my emotions, which can be controlled. Her emotions, which I can't control, but also, but also, but also I'm gonna look at it and say, oh, my wife is probably gonna be excited if we go to a new venue that we haven't been before. So she's gonna be, it's gonna be a positive emotion for I put that in the calculus. I also have to put in the calculus, like I had a, hey, my week was good. I'm not that busy, whatever. Okay, cool. I got some time tonight. I'm not gonna be mad. It's so cool. Oh yeah, it's a good night to roll down there. And also if the calculus is my wife's gonna be super happy and I'm gonna be super angry. That's no factor because I can just be like, cool. I'm just gonna force myself to have a good time and no factor.

• 1:24:11Jocko Willink?

  So I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna let it dictate, but I have to calculate the emotions on both sides. My emotions in the calculus barely count. I'm gonna say that again. My emotions in the calculus barely count and I don't hold a grudge. I don't mope around that night. I don't go to the restaurant and say, see, I told you, no. My emotions barely count. What counts is my wife's emotions or my employee's emotions or my boss's emotions. I have control over my emotions. Therefore they have very little, little say in the calculus.

• 1:24:46Echo Charles?

  I think I get it now for real. Okay, like, okay, correct me if I'm wrong. Cause it's pretty, if I, if I got this correctly, I'm talking out and make sure I got it. It's pretty, that was pretty genius, I think, what you just kind of demonstrated. Okay, so in my scenario, hypothetical by the way, where.

• 1:25:05Echo Charles?

  My, let's say, my wife wants to go somewhere new. But she doesn't want to think about where to go. She doesn't want to make the decision. She doesn't want to figure it out. She wants me to go. Even though I might not even want to go somewhere new, or maybe I do, but I for sure. Now, don't they just go one level deeper? That's two conflicting plans right there. Isn't it? Because her plan is do something new.

• 1:25:24Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 1:25:24Echo Charles?

  Without having to make the decision. That's the plan.

• 1:25:27Jocko Willink?

  Cool.

• 1:25:28Echo Charles?

  So it's like, hey, let's go with that plan. As opposed to my plan would be like, no, we'll go to the same spot. Or no, I don't want to go. That would be my plan.

• 1:25:33Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:25:34Echo Charles?

  Right? So essentially you just went one level deeper where the decision to make the decision is part of the plan.

• 1:25:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's her plan.

• 1:25:41Echo Charles?

  The decision.

• 1:25:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, exactly right. So you go with her. By making a decision on a new place, I'm executing her plan.

• 1:25:46Echo Charles?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:46Jocko Willink?

  So it's a win-win. That's, that's what we're doing over here.

• 1:25:49Echo Charles?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:25:50Jocko Willink?

  See? You see how nice it is?

• 1:25:52Echo Charles?

  That's why I come to you for these things, man.

• 1:25:53Jocko Willink?

  Stuff all works out in the end, bro. That's the way it all is. It's all a unified theory. It's a unified. Do you know what a unified theory is?

• 1:26:02Echo Charles?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:03Jocko Willink?

  It's like the theory of everything.

• 1:26:04Echo Charles?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:04Jocko Willink?

  All the stuff that I'm talking about, it's a unified theory. And if you pull the thread on it, you'll be like, oh.

• 1:26:10Echo Charles?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:10Jocko Willink?

  So you are executing her plan and her plan was to have you come up with the plan.

• 1:26:15Echo Charles?

  Okay, so let me just.

• 1:26:16Jocko Willink?

  At a new restaurant.

• 1:26:18Echo Charles?

  This is just me echo telling you, Jaco, this. The, remember how I said like the, the number one most valuable thing, not the only, the number one most valuable thing that I learned from you is essentially the long game versus the short game and how that's in play? Okay, so the, the updated version of that, which happened a while ago as well, which it, it might be just more of the same really. But basically it goes like this, a more unified expression, we'll say.

• 1:26:46Echo Charles?

  In life, in everything you do, whatever, pretty much, there's going to be a short game being played and a long game being, being played. Most people, the default is the short game, for sure. But there's going to be a short game, there's going to be a long game. There's also with everyday interactions with everything you do, there's going to be a small picture, and then there's going to be a big picture. And I think that bigger picture, like that was an example of like, just look at it one level bigger, bigger picture.

• 1:27:09Jocko Willink?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:27:10Echo Charles?

  Where it's like, you can't, we're not going with her plan to what restaurant it is. The decision for the restaurant is part of her plan.

• 1:27:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Yeah, and just, just, just kinda FYI, saying the big picture and saying long-term and saying strategy versus tactics, all those are interchangeable, not, not completely interchangeable, but essentially interchangeable. They're different ways of saying the same thing. I mean, when I would talk to one of my guys, I might not say, hey, think about this from a strategic perspective. I might say, hey, you gotta think about the big picture. And I'm not saying a bigger map, right? I'm saying over the longer term. So you're right, that it's a different way of expressing the same thing. And maybe we could find some nuance, maybe we will find some nuances

• 1:27:58Jocko Willink?

  on the big picture versus the long-term versus the strategy. But essentially, they're all meaning the same thing, and they're all a good place to focus. And, you know, with that, these are things that we're talking about to apply to really everything that you do in your life, from picking restaurants, to picking employees, to picking plans, to figuring out where you're gonna go in six months, and a year, and two years, to figure out what you're doing with your own personal health, to figure out everything. And in order to do that, you have to detach,

• 1:28:41Jocko Willink?

  that is the first step that you gotta take. Don't get emotional, listen to what people have to say, keep your damn ego in check. It's there. The hardest thing about the ego is you don't know it. It's, it's like the air that you breathe. It's there and you don't recognize it until you go, oh, hold on a second. If you start to inhale something that stinks, then you notice it. Other than that, you don't really notice it. That's what's going on with your ego. So you gotta be careful of it. And then, keep that mind opened. Cause that's, that's where you get the new ideas, and that's where you figure things out. And if you do that, when you detach, then your ability

• 1:29:27Jocko Willink?

  will increase exponentially. You can't i- i- it's like if you didn't have, if you had bad vision and one day you put on glasses and you could see like that is or, or you know, one day you're, you're walking around and you put some dirty chipped up sunglasses on that were old and crappy. And you have sunglasses like that?

• 1:29:54Echo Charles?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:54Jocko Willink?

  I got some sunglasses like that and, and you're just wearing them because it's sunny out or whatever, but there's nothing really that you do. You're just cruising, but then all of a sudden something happens where you need to see.

• 1:30:02Echo Charles?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:03Jocko Willink?

  And you lift up those glasses and everything becomes real clear. That's like what detachment does. It's, it's an amazing, it's a superpower. And it gives you an amazing advantage in everything that you do. So detach everybody. That's what we got for you. Uh, echo. It's a good way for us to get our minds right. What else are we, uh, what else we need to think about here?

• 1:30:27Echo Charles?

  Our bodies.

• 1:30:28Jocko Willink?

  Oh, check.

• 1:30:29Echo Charles?

  I broke my foot. I don't know if it's broken, but it seems broken.

• 1:30:32Jocko Willink?

  You're wearing a funny shoe.

• 1:30:33Echo Charles?

  Yes, called a post-op shoe.

• 1:30:37Jocko Willink?

  But you didn't get op?

• 1:30:38Echo Charles?

  No op, just the shoe.

• 1:30:40Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:30:40Echo Charles?

  I think it was like a turf toe gone wild morphed into more injuries because I've been doing a barefoot kind of scenario.

• 1:30:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:46Echo Charles?

  You know, when you work out like squatting, just barefoot and stuff. I hear good things and it was working out for me.

• 1:30:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, until.

• 1:30:53Echo Charles?

  Well, I was, yeah, until I was doing burpees on the cement, going hard. So you know, when you dropped out, you know, burpees, you can do them different ways, but I do the kind of where like they're almost like sprawls, but I don't sprawl on my hip or nothing. It's just on my hand, hands and feet. That's it. Nothing else touches. So it's like, there's some pressure.

• 1:31:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the pressure.

• 1:31:13Echo Charles?

  Barefoot cement, boom, hurts, no problem.

• 1:31:16Jocko Willink?

  Was it one impact? You're like ouch. So it was the whole

• 1:31:19Echo Charles?

  The next day I was like

• 1:31:20Jocko Willink?

  cumulative work.

• 1:31:21Echo Charles?

  Yeah. So the next day I was jammed up, but I could still do barefoot squats and then the next, uh, actually it wasn't rain. The next day it was like maybe a day or two later. And bro, the next day after that, I was couldn't walk and my foot ballooned up. And it wouldn't go away, bro. Anyway, I'm jammed up a little bit, but it does focus your brain on alternative stuff, you know?

• 1:31:45Jocko Willink?

  What's what you've been focused on?

• 1:31:46Echo Charles?

  The nutrition element.

• 1:31:47Jocko Willink?

  Ah, the nutrition.

• 1:31:48Echo Charles?

  It's a big deal. It helps with healing way more night and day, by the way, than sleep. Um, but yeah, so yeah, boom, that's what's going on with me. Cause I know you're wondering about that. Anyway, so

• 1:32:02Echo Charles?

  there is such thing as uh, uh, uh, exploring just nutrition, but supplementation can be just as important.

• 1:32:11Jocko Willink?

  What's that percentage that people throw out like on, on, on nutrition versus exercise? Like you can't outwork a bad diet?

• 1:32:21Echo Charles?

  Yes, I, I believe that that's a good.

• 1:32:25Jocko Willink?

  Except for when you're 18 or 19 or 20 years old and you're going through buds.

• 1:32:32Jocko Willink?

  You could outwork a horrible diet.

• 1:32:34Echo Charles?

  You can't uh, out eat a freaking buds scenario.

• 1:32:38Jocko Willink?

  You can't out eat a bud scenario. It's not happening. You just need to get your grub on.

• 1:32:43Echo Charles?

  Yeah, that makes sense.

• 1:32:44Jocko Willink?

  That's what you need to do. Uh, yeah. So if you want to help yourself out, get some milk.

• 1:32:50Jocko Willink?

  Get some, which is a protein dessert, really.

• 1:32:53Echo Charles?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:54Jocko Willink?

  If all things being considered.

• 1:32:55Echo Charles?

  In my case, it was a additional joint warfare, additional super car oil. That was my protocol. Milk, I have been going heavy on the milk. It does, actually it jammed me up only with cardio stuff.

• 1:33:08Jocko Willink?

  What? Oh, the foot injury.

• 1:33:10Echo Charles?

  Yeah. So I'm still going hard on the milk is the point there.

• 1:33:13Jocko Willink?

  Did you, did you see the little video I posted of the, the new factory down in North Carolina?

• 1:33:19Echo Charles?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:20Jocko Willink?

  What was your thoughts?

• 1:33:21Echo Charles?

  What, on the video or the new factory?

• 1:33:23Jocko Willink?

  The new factory. Well, I know that the video is, you know?

• 1:33:26Echo Charles?

  Freaking amazing. That's, that's your assessment of your video?

• 1:33:30Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, no. I don't want you to sit here and be like, well, you know, your angle on this.

• 1:33:38Echo Charles?

  Yep.

• 1:33:39Jocko Willink?

  So no, no, I don't want your professional assessment of the video there, freaking.

• 1:33:43Echo Charles?

  So I watch, um, so I think, so there's this guy named Jake Tran. He's a, he's a guy who makes these really cool little mini like documentaries almost on YouTube. And he, he talks about like conspiracies and money and corruption and stuff. It's really interesting. Jake Tran and. So I go into rabbit holes every once in a while with his videos. So a lot of times he'll talk about things like

• 1:34:07Echo Charles?

  foreign corruption or like that's where I got the um actually might have been from one of his videos. I'm not sure. I forget, but where I got the expression uniquely priced labor.

• 1:34:16Jocko Willink?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:34:17Echo Charles?

  So you get like,

• 1:34:20Echo Charles?

  you know, and I get it, man. You want to, you know, you know, buy something kind of cheaper and bring it, you know, and sell it for more. And a lot of times part of that discounted price is

• 1:34:29Jocko Willink?

  Slave labor.

• 1:34:29Echo Charles?

  The cost of making it.

• 1:34:32Jocko Willink?

  Slave labor, bro.

• 1:34:33Echo Charles?

  Exactly right. You know, do we, do they say that when you're making your order from China or whatever? Do they say, hey, um, you know, like here's all your list items. Oh, labor, uh, 10 cents a day, you know, like it doesn't say that kind of stuff. So it's kind of out of sight, out of mind. Let's face it. But yeah. So when I watch your video and a lot of videos, actually the origin HD stuff, it kind of like goes to show like, oh, okay. It creates this bigger picture in your mind about what's really going on. Like you don't, that guilt and I'm not saying everyone feels guilty about slave labor in other countries, but when you think about it, man, it does warrant some guilt as far as feelings go.

• 1:35:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:35:10Echo Charles?

  So yeah, when you see like, yeah, how you guys, you know, origin and in that video and a lot of other videos, it kind of, it does make me think about that a lot more.

• 1:35:18Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And, and you know what else is an interesting thing to think about is the environment. Uh, I was watching some, oh, I was watching Rogan the other day and I forgot who we have on, but they were talking about seeing the rivers, like a river in China and it's dyed blue. It's like blue from making denim and they just dump the chemicals right into the, right into the river and you can't live there. Cause it's so awful and polluted. And so, yeah, that's why, that's why we're doing this, man. That's why we're doing this. Uh, so, and it was cool. The thing I liked about showing that factory and that was my first time getting to that factory. And the thing I liked about showing is I think it's a good opportunity for people to go, oh,

• 1:36:03Jocko Willink?

  oh, I, people are starting to understand what we're doing, why we're doing it, knowing that it's good for the workers, good for America, good for the environment, good for you as a human. So originusa.com, get yourself some gear there and, and you'll be stoked.

• 1:36:21Echo Charles?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:36:22Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 1:36:23Echo Charles?

  Also speaking of gear, Jaco's store. It's called Jaco's store. Some new stuff on there.

• 1:36:29Echo Charles?

  Discipline equals freedom. Good. Uh, we got the, and don't forget about the shirt locker. I talk about this all the time, but it is, there's some cool, if you're on YouTube, this is a newer.

• 1:36:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:40Echo Charles?

  Well, you know what this is?

• 1:36:41Jocko Willink?

  That's G I Joe, right?

• 1:36:44Echo Charles?

  Yes. But yeah, so they're a little bit different kind of designs, but you get one every month.

• 1:36:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:49Echo Charles?

  And if you can see the layers, I think that adds to the, to the experience.

• 1:36:53Jocko Willink?

  Adds to the hype.

• 1:36:54Echo Charles?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:36:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. What's that? jogglestore.com. Get some of that. Or else we have the Jocko Underground. We have to have that. We have to have the Jocko Underground because look, we don't control whatever platform you're listening to this, unless you're listening to it on Jocko Underground, which you can do. Then we don't control the platform. We don't know what they're going to censor. We don't know if they're going to insert ads and force you to listen to an advertisement. So that they can make money.

• 1:37:17Echo Charles?

  Involuntarily.

• 1:37:18Jocko Willink?

  They make money off of us and you. And that's not good. You don't need to do that. Don't let them make money off of you. Come on. Uh, so yeah, we don't, and, and we don't know if they're ever going to just pull us off because they don't like us because we said something bad about whoever. We said that we don't like slave labor. Well, they want to protect slave labor. So they pull us off the platform. So jockunderground.com. Eight dollars and 18 cents a month and you get this. Plus we do it like additional podcast on there talking about things that are. Let's say Jocko Podcast adjacent.

• 1:37:52Echo Charles?

  Adjacent. Life advice and tips. You know what? Would you consider this? This is what I kind of thought. You know, like you'll talk about like a topic, a thought.

• 1:38:05Echo Charles?

  Ever heard of the, uh, it's like a book called Deep Thoughts. It's more of a comedy book.

• 1:38:09Jocko Willink?

  A joke.

• 1:38:09Echo Charles?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:09Jocko Willink?

  Thoughts is like a thing from Saturday Night Live, right?

• 1:38:11Echo Charles?

  Yeah. And then there's a book. There's an actual book and it's just, it's that, but it's a bunch of them and they're pretty like, some of them are like, okay, that's funny, but some of them are like, oh yeah, huh. And you know, you kind of, but these, a lot of times the beginning of Jock, the underground podcast is Jocko's deep thoughts.

• 1:38:27Jocko Willink?

  That's interesting. I didn't really thought of that. I don't think it is at all.

• 1:38:33Jocko Willink?

  What I think they are is like topics that I come across where I think, ah, you know, that'd be cool to talk about for a, for half an hour, or I learned something that I go, oh, this applies to a lot of different situations. I, it's not really Jocko Podcast, but it's a little underground activity. So there you go. That's JacoUnderground.com if you want to check that out. We have a YouTube channel. Origin USA has a, a, a YouTube channel as well. If you want to check out what's happening. And Dakota Meyer, he's got his thing. FlipsideCanvas.com. If you want to get something cool to hang on your wall. I've written a bunch of books you can buy. You can read them. You can ask questions. You can ask questions about anything on ExtremeOwnership.com.

• 1:39:17Jocko Willink?

  We have a, a place to learn leadership and a place to learn about life, really. I'm on there one, two, three times a week live, like a Zoom call. Well, it's not like a Zoom, it's a Zoom call.

• 1:39:31Jocko Willink?

  If you want to ask me a question directly and you want to have a full interaction, like, hey, explain the situation and explain what you've already tried and explain what this one Fred is doing and saying to you. You can work through all that stuff with me.

• 1:39:47Jocko Willink?

  Go to ExtremeOwnership.com for that. And also we have a leadership consultancy. Go to Ashlamfront.com for that. And also, if you want to help service members who are active and retired, you want to help their families, you want to help Gold Star families. Markley's mom, she's got an awesome organization. And if you want to help that, you can go to AmericasMightyWarriors.org. Also, our friend Micah, he has a incredible organization, taking vets out into the wilderness to...

• 1:40:24Jocko Willink?

  To kinda reawaken their soul. Heroesandhorses.org. Don't forget you can find us both on Twitter, on the Gram, on Facebook. Echo's at Echo Charles. I'm at Jocko Willink. You gotta watch out for that algorithm, though. It's gonna try and grab you. You know, another thing, if you wanna come and meet up with us, come to the muster. We have a, we have an event. The next one's in Denver. So if you wanna come to the muster, you wanna hang out, you wanna meet, you wanna go through some leadership training, once again, go to eslonfront.com, check out events, and come to one of those live events. People ask me like, "Oh, are you speaking live?" And those are, those are the events kind of where

• 1:41:09Jocko Willink?

  I speak live. The muster, Battlefield, um, FTXs, I go to some of those. So, check any of that stuff out. And of course, thanks to the military troops around the world, we just went through Memorial Day. And on that day, we remember and memorialize those that made the ultimate sacrifice. And we know that all those who signed the dotted line and swore the oath, made a commitment to make that sacrifice. So, thanks to all of you out there who made that oath. And also, thanks to our police and law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics,

• 1:41:53Jocko Willink?

  EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, Border Patrol, Secret Service, all first responders, you also signed the dotted line and swear to protect us. And we are grateful for your commitment as well. And everybody else that's listening, you can't see what you're doing if you're actually watching yourself do it. If that's the only thing you're watching is what you're doing, you can't see what you're doing. You can't see where you're going. You can't see the impact that you're gonna have. You can only see a few inches in front of yourself. And you can't make good decisions when you can't see anything. And you can't

• 1:42:37Jocko Willink?

  make good decisions when you're wound up.

• 1:42:42Jocko Willink?

  And you're emotional. And you can't be a good leader or a good person. If you're allowing any of those things to happen, and a lot of times what's driving that is your ego. So don't let your ego get out of control. Take a step back. Relax. Look around. And then. Go get after it. And until next time, this is Echo and Jaco. Out.