Jocko Underground: People Are Like Terrain to be Used For Advantage | Getting Back on The Horse

People can be like terrain. My team hates criticism. Learning Guitar. Alcoholism as a result of tragedy. I need you to yell at me for motivation. Getting back on the horse. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is the Jocko Underground Podcast. It's number 52. Sitting here with Echo Charles, EC in the house.

• 0:10Jocko Willink?

  I was out at Gettysburg. We're doing the Echelon Front Battlefield, doing the Battlefield Walk. And I went on this little, kind of like tangent, not really a tangent, a riff, maybe?

• 0:25Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 0:25Jocko Willink?

  You know, what do you, you see me do this kind of thing, going off about something?

• 0:29Speaker 01

  You digressed a little bit.

• 0:30Jocko Willink?

  No, it's not a digression. It's not a digression.

• 0:32Speaker 01

  Wait, like what is it?

• 0:33Jocko Willink?

  Digression's bad, right? Digression leads us nowhere. It's a positive.

• 0:36Speaker 01

  Well, not necessarily. I think technically digression just means like you're going in one direction with a whatever and then you went off in a different direction.

• 0:44Jocko Willink?

  We're not moving in a good direction though. Like, oh, but I digressed and I have to get back to the subject.

• 0:49Speaker 01

  Let's say the initial direction, but sure.

• 0:52Jocko Willink?

  So I diverted my comments. Anyways, we were talking about terrain. You know, you're out on the battlefield. You can see like high ground and low ground and how important it is and impactful it is. And then I kind of went on this explaining that people are terrain. Because there's some real similarities between people and terrain because you, if you're, if you're a good battlefield leader, you can look at the terrain and you can figure out how best to use it and how it's, use it to your advantage and how it's going to help you win the battle. There, also you can't look at a hill on, on the map or on the ground and be like, hey, I don't really like the way this hill is. I'm going to move the hill. You can't do that.

• 1:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's true.

• 1:35Jocko Willink?

  You have to utilize the terrain. So people are like terrain in that they got some advantages to them. You know, this guy's really, really smart at math. Cool. Where am I going to put him? Accounting department, right? You know, this person's really enjoys conversation with people. Where I'm going to put him? Sales department, right? So, so you have terrain and people are terrain and you can't look, look, can you change them a little bit over time? Sure.

• 2:04Jocko Willink?

  But they're not going to change a hundred percent. You can, you can make some small, they're not even going to change. You're lucky to get someone to change, you know, 15, 20%. They can change. Important, important difference. They can change. So if you echo Charles, like the classic cases, let's say you hit rock bottom. If you hit rock bottom, you can change. You can be like, I'm never taking drugs again. I'm never do whatever, whatever made you hit rock bottom. You're gambling, you're drinking, whatever thing was, you can change, but I can't change you. Or it's very difficult for me to change you. Let's say you are a micromanager. I can move you a little bit. I can, I can get you to micromanage less. But unless you say, you know what, man?

• 2:48Jocko Willink?

  I am a micromanager and I know it's not good. I'm going to change. Then that's different. Then we can make some real progress. That's why one of the key factors of what I try and do when I work with people is not me impose the truth onto them, but show them what they're doing. So they go, you know what? I feel like I'm micromanaging my team and I go, yeah, you know, that probably, probably feels like that to them. You know, so we, so it gets, they see it themselves, then they want to change. So what I, I ended up talking, I've been talking about this quite a bit lately, is understanding what tendencies people have, right? So that's what we have to do. We have to read the terrain of our people. Is this person a micromanager?

• 3:32Jocko Willink?

  Is this person obsessed with details? Does this person not care about details? Cause if I'm like, got a critical part of a project that relies on excruciating detail, I'm not putting echo Charles in charge of that project, right? That's not your thing. It's not your detailed thing. If I have something that's going to require a creative solution, then maybe I'm like, hey, I'm going to put echo on this thing because he's going to have to see the vision and create something that, that people will feel. Okay. Well, that's an echo Charles thing. So I've got to know and understand what your tendency is.

• 4:08Jocko Willink?

  Are you too emotional? And if you're too emotional, I've got to, I've got to not only assign you into positions where those emotions will be mitigated, but I've also got to think, oh, we're about to, Echo is about to get some bad news about the project. I need to go down there and make sure that he stays under control.

• 4:30Jocko Willink?

  Maybe you're too analytical, right? Where you're walking around like a robot. And that something's going wrong with the team and they're all upset and you're just like, I don't know what the problem is. Let's move forward, you know, and then you losing connection with your team and that's a problem. Maybe you're too aggressive. Maybe you're not aggressive enough. So we can go through all these different traits.

• 4:51Jocko Willink?

  But what's important for me as a leader is just like I read the terrain on the, out on the battlefield. Hey, here's some high ground. Here's some low ground. Here's a ravine. I can utilize this for dead space as we approach the target. Like all those things that I'm gonna study about the train. I have to try and understand that about my people too. So.

• 5:11Jocko Willink?

  That makes sense, right? You understand you're tracking, you're nodding. What'd you write down over there? You got commentary?

• 5:16Speaker 01

  No, no, you kind of covered it though, after I wrote it down. How you, you know, you name all these traits, right? And then you're like, okay, you don't think of it in terms of like, oh, I hate that they're like that. And, and they need to change or whatever. It's like, you gotta kind of work around it or over it, or even utilize it really.

• 5:34Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 5:36Speaker 01

  So if, let's say someone's, um, like a big one is like stubborn, right? Someone's like stubborn. So the wrong way to think about it, and this is the initial thought that, that when you were talking ahead or whatever. Where if they're stubborn, like it's so frustrating when someone's stubborn and they don't want to budge on something. But it doesn't have to be frustrating if you look at it in terms of, hey, it's just, it's like a mountain. It's like you're trying to do something. The mountain's in the way. It's like you getting frustrated that there's a mountain there. Bro, that doesn't help you at all. You gotta focus on what you should do, you know, how do you maneuver kind of thing?

• 6:09Jocko Willink?

  So two things on that. The, there's a famous operation in Vietnam that the SEALs did where they scaled a cliff. To get to the target and the enemy never thought that anyone would ever scale this cliff. So it's exactly what you're saying. Hey, here's this cliff. It seems impassable. Guess what? We're going to utilize it. You have someone that's really stubborn. Oh, you have a project that you know is going to take a hard nose to get through this project and get everything done. Maybe that's the person you assign. And I'll tell you another thing that's interesting.

• 6:43Jocko Willink?

  With your kids, you know, and you think, oh, my kid's so stubborn. Okay, what is, how is that a positive quality? Cause it is a positive quality. You know, you could say stubborn, you could also use a different word, determined. Those are almost the same words, right?

• 6:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:58Jocko Willink?

  Those are almost the same words. Hey, won't give up, keeps going, won't, won't compromise on this. That's determination. So how do we as a parent, as a leader, find the best way to utilize the human terrain? And put people in a position where they're going to be successful and they're going to help the mission.

• 7:19Jocko Willink?

  So that's part one.

• 7:22Jocko Willink?

  Part two.

• 7:25Jocko Willink?

  Straight out of Sun Tzu. You got to understand your own

• 7:30Jocko Willink?

  tendencies. You've got to understand your own terrain. You've got to know what you are and who you are in life and as a leader. You got to recognize when you're 16 years old, that you fall for girls too quick. You go head over heels, right?

• 7:48Jocko Willink?

  Or you fall for guys too quick. You've got to realize that. You've got to say, oh, I get this feeling and I feel like I'm way out of control and I feel like I'm

• 7:58Jocko Willink?

  way too in the game and supportive and on board with this, with, with people I get around. You get hyped on them.

• 8:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:08Jocko Willink?

  So you gotta, you gotta calculate that. Are you too quick to judge others? Are you too trusting? That's a big one. You just try, hey, oh, that sounds good, right? You're can be too trusting. You've got to know that. And this is really, you can start to recognize these things. Like I wish somebody would have said this to me when I was 15. Cause you can start recognizing this stuff when you're 15.

• 8:32Jocko Willink?

  Are you too trusting? Are you not trusting enough? Are you wandering around paranoid at everyone? Are you always freaking out? And you're like, I'm not gonna do that. I'm not gonna compromise. So, so you can end up there. Are you risk averse? Or are you reckless? You know, I'm kind of breaking these things into a dichotomy. Like you're either or, and some stuff, you're cool. Some stuff, you're, you're, you're well balanced, which is great. So you know you're well balanced and you know that you're pretty good at assessing risk. And that's a good thing to be. Okay, cool. So you can check that one off. You don't have to worry about it too much. And then, you know, when it goes from life and then, and there's a whole bunch of other things we could talk about. You know, are you, are you careless with your money? Or are you too frugal with your money? Some people, some people are so frugal with their money, they're, you know, they die with, you know, all this money in the bank.

• 9:17Jocko Willink?

  And you know, the, the say, the old saying goes, you can't take it with you. Right? So what do you, you know, why didn't you go to the free, go to, you know, go and surf for a weekend? Instead you were, didn't want to spend that gas money. So figure out what your own tendency is, what your own terrain is. And same thing with leadership perspective, are you a micromanager? Do you tend to be a micromanager? Do you tend to be obsessed with the details? Do you tend to get emotional? Do you tend to get too aggressive?

• 9:51Jocko Willink?

  And, and then what you have to do is you have to take those tendencies that you have.

• 9:57Jocko Willink?

  And you have to put them into the calculus of your decision making. You have to, you have to put that denominator in there somewhere on your formula to say, yeah, I know I'm super hyped about this girl. But I also know that I get super hyped about girls. So before I make this step, I need to put that in the calculus.

• 10:23Jocko Willink?

  And here's the thing with all this. You're only gonna be able to see it if you're able to detach. You're only going to be able to, guys that are super, and I keep on bringing up guys that are super hyped on girls. Why? Cause in the teams? Bro, you get like, you know, the guy, he meets the girl. You know, and it's just game on. I mean, he's losing his mind. He's just going crazy about this girl. And you know, you see, it happened with girls too. Those girls that would like go full, uh, what's the, what's the movie?

• 10:59Jocko Willink?

  Full on like they're just

• 11:01Speaker 01

  Twenty seven dresses?

• 11:03Jocko Willink?

  No, no, uh, the girl tries to murder the guy.

• 11:07Speaker 01

  Oh, freaking fatal.

• 11:09Jocko Willink?

  Fatal attraction, right? There's that too, you know? So you get, you get all these things happening.

• 11:13Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 11:14Jocko Willink?

  So these are what we want to watch out for. You can't see that when you're, when you are in that zone, you don't, you don't see it.

• 11:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:21Jocko Willink?

  You don't see it at all.

• 11:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:23Jocko Willink?

  People that lose their temper seldom recognize it. Well, they definitely don't recognize it while it's happening. Sometimes their afterthought is like, man, I should have lost my temper.

• 11:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:32Jocko Willink?

  Now I'm going to jail again for punching someone up, you know? So we have to take a step back in order to see the terrain. You gotta take a step back so you can see it. When you keep, when you're standing right in front of it, just, it's just dirt.

• 11:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:44Jocko Willink?

  You have to get far enough away from it that you can actually make out the terrain features. So that's my recommendation. Start to pay attention to the people around you. What is that terrain? Read that terrain, learn to read that terrain. And then take a look at yourself. Figure out your own terrain. Where are you at?

• 12:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:03Jocko Willink?

  Don't let it get you jammed up.

• 12:06Speaker 01

  Yep. And it tends where then I'm kind of thinking of it. Cause terrain can also help you, right? So we don't, we don't know this, uh, or we don't, I'm just totally thinking of myself. It feels like I don't, I will, almost like I won't notice this idea. If it's terrain or a person that's like, that's conducive to whatever, right? So it's like, you know, I, you know, I, you hang around with your circle of friends and they typically have the same interests as you. So it's like, there's no contention, right? But when you're working, there kind of is. So that mountain kind of seems like, kind of is in my way. As opposed to when you're with your friends, it's like, oh man, we could just jump in this river on our boat and be way,

• 12:48Speaker 01

  and get downstream way quicker than, you know, so it's, so it'll work for you and you don't like necessarily, um, have to do any work to, to utilize or whatever. But you guys, you and, uh, Leif at the muster, for example, you guys use a couple of good examples of this where, you know, when you guys do the role play?

• 13:07Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 13:08Speaker 01

  Um, who's the guy Fred, Ike? I don't know what, whatever the name.

• 13:11Jocko Willink?

  Arnold.

• 13:12Speaker 01

  Arnold.

• 13:14Speaker 01

  So the one where you go and Arnold has a big ego, he has a lot of experience. Um, he's hard headed, right? All this stuff. So how you play on his ego, you know, where it's like, hey, your team will, Arnold's like, I'm, you know, my team's not going to be down for this thing or this new change in this, you know, method B or whatever.

• 13:32Jocko Willink?

  That's just a classic, right? Arnold says, there's no way my team was going to go with this new procedure. And I gotta say, yeah, but Arnold, those guys look up to you like.

• 13:46Jocko Willink?

  So that is a little excerpt of what we are doing on the Jocko Underground Podcast. So if you want to continue to listen, go to JacoUnderground.com and subscribe and we're doing this. We're doing this to mitigate our reliance on external platforms. So we are not subject to their control and we are doing this so that we can support the Jocko Podcast, which will remain as is free for all, as long as we can keep it that way. But we, but we are doing this so we don't have to be under the control of sponsors. And we're doing it so we can give you

• 14:27Jocko Willink?

  more control, more interaction, more direct connections, better communications with us. And to do that, we are, we're building a website right now where we'll be able to utilize to strengthen this legion of troopers that are in the game with us. So thank you. It's JacoUnderground.com. It costs $8.18 a month. And if you can't afford to support us, we can still support you. Just email [email protected] and we'll get you taken care of. Until then, we will see you mobilized underground.