309: There's Always Room for Improvement. There's Always More To Learn. With JP Dinnell

0:00:00 - Opening 0:01:31 - JP Dinnell. Always more to learn. 1:51:58 - How to stay on THE PATH. 2:34:01 - Closing Gratitude. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 309 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening Echo.

• 0:06JP Dinnell?

  Good evening.

• 0:07Jocko Willink?

  Also joining us tonight JP Danelle. Good evening JP.

• 0:10JP Dinnell?

  Good evening.

• 0:11Jocko Willink?

  So I got very lucky in my career, very lucky in my career and was able to learn a lot from being in the military.

• 0:23Jocko Willink?

  And a lot of what the military taught me, I was able to learn because I was able to teach. I was, you get put in positions in the military where you're teaching, which is an awesome way to learn and it starts in the SEAL Team starts really young. The first time you go overseas, you're going to be teaching, you're going to be teaching some host nation personnel, marksmanship or map and compass or whatever. And so you're just kind of learning how to teach. But then where I really realized the power of teaching and learning at the same time was when I was in training cell at SEAL Team One, when I got into training cell at SEAL Team One.

• 1:06Jocko Willink?

  So I had done three deployments, three workups, three deployments, and I went to training cell at SEAL Team One. And when I got to say training cell at SEAL Team One, I was single, no kids, no cares, volunteered for every trip that there was, which means I got to teach everything. I taught every subject that you could teach. I taught land warfare, CQB, what we used to call CQB. When did that change to CQC? Was it always CQC for you?

• 1:35JP Dinnell?

  They would, they would switch up between CQB and CQC in SQT and I believe in my first platoon.

• 1:42Jocko Willink?

  It was CQC.

• 1:43JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, it was, they were really trying to hard like, hey, it's now CQC and guys were like, okay.

• 1:48Jocko Willink?

  We had, we had a new guy, a freaking, my second platoon, we had this awesome guy. And we had, he had to write up, like the new guys had to write up their bullet points for their evaluations. And he wrote, completed CQB training, but he had it C cubed, like, like three to the power of three. CQB, CQB and every, yeah, C cubed B. And he was totally serious. Like he thought that's what it was called. So maybe that's why they had to switch it to CQC to make up for the homes. But look, I got to teach that. I got to teach them out.

• 2:30Jocko Willink?

  Or at least go on mount trips, mar ops, OTB. I taught a diving course. I taught a freaking awesome diving course. And this is back in the day when the diving course was five weeks long. And you'd you'd take off your rig and climb through pipes up into the piers and stuff and then go do something, then come back and put your rig back on. Spec recon, taught spec recon. So I got to teach everything. I was very, very lucky. And that's where I felt like I really started to learn. And what allows you to be able to learn so much is you're detached. You are you are detached. You're not part of the platoon. You're watching the platoon. So you are detached. And that's when you if you pay attention, if you pay

• 3:11Jocko Willink?

  attention, you realize that you can see so much because you're detached. And that really brought it home for me. And it's, you know, it's what I wrote about leadership, strategy and tactics. I kind of figured that out on an oil rig. My first platoon about how to detach. But then when I realized as an instructor, oh, you can see everything, everything, everything. When you're in an elevated position, or when you take a step back. So that was awesome. And then from there, I got picked up for the officer program, assistant platoon commander, platoon commander, task unit commander, went through more workups, more deployments.

• 3:44Jocko Willink?

  Continue to learn, assemble thoughts in my head about how to do things, about how to run missions, about how to lead. And those workups and those deployments solidified a lot of ideas in my head about combat leadership. And the more I learned, as I was teaching the guys in my platoons about stuff. And then the Battle of Ramadi, obviously, put those theories to the ultimate test. And, you know, we're able to utilize those those principles for victory. But I'll tell you what, it wasn't until I got home, took over Naval Special Warfare Group One trade at. That's when the leadership principles that

• 4:29Jocko Willink?

  we talk about all the time. That's when they got really crystallized. Because at that time, in that place, in my opinion.

• 4:40Jocko Willink?

  I think that was the best leadership laboratory and instructional facility that has ever existed in the world. And look, I know that is a crazy, crazy big statement to make.

• 4:56JP Dinnell?

  It's accurate.

• 4:57Jocko Willink?

  But the, what we were able to do at that time, look, we had a huge budget. The war was in full swing because of our deployment and because of our combat experience in Task Unit Bruiser, being in sustained urban combat, man, I was given like the widest possible boundaries to push the envelope and do whatever we kind of wanted to do.

• 5:29Jocko Willink?

  And that's what we ended up with. And look, the training that we went through when we were in Task Unit Bruiser, the cadre that put us through training was also awesome. So it was not like, it was not like this revolutionary change. But we took it, we did take it even further. We took, and, and even that training, you know, when, when I had Roger Hayden on, we came back from Vietnam, we still do stuff. So it's, I'm not sitting here saying that, that this training at that time was better than anything else and it's because of us. No, what I'm saying is that the training that you get to do is awesome. And when we were in that lucky moment in time, because of the way the freaking planets aligned, it just was epic. It was epic. So what we, what we end up with is this, we have,

• 6:15Jocko Willink?

  we have multiple arenas, multiple arenas of leadership challenges to test and train leadership capability.

• 6:27Jocko Willink?

  They're all different arenas you can go to. The, the two that I'm going to talk about the most because they probably had the most power was the land warfare arena and then the mount or SAUK arena. And this is another thing that they changed at some point. It used to be mount when I was younger, which was military operations, urban terrain, and then it got changed to SAUK, which is special operations, urban combat. But whatever you want to call it, these two, these two arenas that we were allowed to run these training missions.

• 6:56Jocko Willink?

  And we had the opportunity to put platoon after platoon after platoon after platoon through complex, dynamic, reactive, intense, realistic, high-pressure scenarios where the difference between success and failure came down to one thing and one thing only. It only came down to one thing, and that was leadership.

• 7:20Jocko Willink?

  That was leadership. It was 100% leadership. If a, if a platoon or a task unit was successful, it was because of leadership. And if the platoon or task unit failed, it was because of leadership. Because there's some constants, there's some variables and some constants. The constants are, look, you're going to be in a stressful situation. It's going to be a complex mission. It's going to be a opposing force. So the bad guys are going to be highly capable. They're also going to be tightly controlled most of the time. Sometimes, sometimes my brothers would get a little out of hand, but most of the time it's tightly controlled. And then you have a platoon or two platoons of SEALs.

• 8:02Jocko Willink?

  Now, some people might think, well, you know, there's going to be a variation in the SEAL platoons. And that is accurate. There is going to be some level of variation of the skills in a SEAL platoon. But overall, the variation of the troops, of the 14 or 16 shooters in that platoon, overall, when you combine them all together, you're going to have some smart guys, you're going to have some dumb guys, you're going to have some old guys, you're going to have some new guys, you're going to have some aggressive guys, you're going to have some passive guys, you're going to have all these different, you're big guys, small guys, you're going to have all these different guys, and you take them all together and you mix them up, and that platoon is going to fall within the margin of error of a normal

• 8:46Jocko Willink?

  SEAL platoon. That's what's going to happen.

• 8:50Jocko Willink?

  Seals come in all different shapes and sizes and that's just the out the net outcome that you get when you put them all together is a seal platoon and they're all kind of pretty much the same thing. Look, there's a variance, like I said, there's a variance, but they're not, there's not one platoon that's filled with idiots. It just doesn't exist. There's not one platoon that's filled with told everyone's a stud. It doesn't exist. Occasionally, we get the stacked platoons occasionally and sometimes they'd implode and sometimes they'd be good because again, you got the mixture. But what would happen when a stacked platoon, it just depends on how good the leader was. If the leader could contain those egos, that platoon could be great. If he couldn't, it would fall apart.

• 9:31Jocko Willink?

  So because the platoon is kind of the same functional thing, within a, within a margin of error, the only difference between success and failure ends up being the, the platoon, the platoon leadership. And it doesn't really even matter where that platoon leadership is coming from. It doesn't really even matter. It took me, it probably took me one month to figure this out. It took me one month before I didn't care who the leader was. I didn't care if it was the chief. I didn't care if it was the platoon commander. I didn't care if the, if it was the leading petty officer of the platoon. I didn't care if it was a E5, three E5s that were just awesome and they could make shit happen. That, that's enough leadership on a platoon that they can win all day.

• 10:16JP Dinnell?

  So you're talking about when you were running trading, that you could not really not care where that leadership came from or when you were in your first platoon?

• 10:25Jocko Willink?

  I would say, no, when I was, when I took over trade at, I was watching and at first I thought, hey, here's the job for the, oh, I see. Here's the job for the platoon chief. Here's the job for the assistant platoon commander. Here's the job for the LPL. Hey, these are the roles and responsibilities. I wrote those roles and responsibilities out. And gave them to people and issued them to people and they were like, okay, this is cool. But then you'd realize you'd have a platoon chief that didn't know what he was doing. Or you'd have an OIC that didn't know what he was doing. And so he couldn't handle that job, whatever that job was.

• 10:53JP Dinnell?

  Yes.

• 10:53Jocko Willink?

  But if you had a horrible platoon chief, but the LPO was a badass, wouldn't really matter. That guy would just cover for him and, and, and make it happen. And maybe the, maybe the chief is good at admin. And so he's kind of, oh, look, man, I'll have to take care of the paperwork over here. You know, you gotta do your thing. I mean, it's not like Leif Babbin was relying heavily on Tony Affrati to handle the paperwork for Leif, right? I bet you Tony didn't know how to turn on a computer, right? Because that's not what his skillset was. And it didn't matter one bit. Leif's doing paperwork, his junior officer doing paperwork. Tony's running tactics, like Tony should be running tactics. But that can swap.

• 11:31JP Dinnell?

  Yes.

• 11:32Jocko Willink?

  That can swap. You can end up with a platoon commander who's just a stud and has a good comprehension of tactics. And a platoon chief that doesn't really get it. He's a good guy, but he's not going to add much from the tactical front. But so that's what it boils down to. I didn't, it took me about a month to go, look, I don't care as long as we have leaders in here. I'm happy. And so going through this training, the training that we had not only identified who the leaders were, and then what their shortfalls were, but most important, it allowed us the opportunity to teach them how to lead. That, that was the most important thing was that it allowed us the opportunity

• 12:16Jocko Willink?

  to teach them how to lead. And, and the lessons that you get learned in these dynamic environments when you feel them. You ever heard that thing, he who suffers remembers?

• 12:26JP Dinnell?

  Yes.

• 12:27Jocko Willink?

  So it's, I think, I think I quite frankly, got that in a fortune cookie at some point in my life. I don't want to say, tell you, I got it from Sun Tzu or Musashi.

• 12:36JP Dinnell?

  I'm pretty sure there's also some Bible verses around that as well, but.

• 12:39Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 12:40JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 12:40Jocko Willink?

  I didn't get it from any of those. I think I legitimately got it from a fortune cookie. He who suffers remembers. And that's kind of what happens. You go through this training and it's hard. Not so much like, oh, it's physically hard, but all of a sudden you look around and everyone's, no one knows what's happening and you go, I'm supposed to be in charge of this. I'm horrible.

• 12:58JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 12:59Jocko Willink?

  And you, I don't want to make this mistake again. And. And that's what's incredibly important. The, one of the key components of this training, all of it, it was, there's three major components to it. It was humbling, it was humbling, and it was humbling. And if you couldn't, if you couldn't, if you approached that training in a humble way, the guys would just do awesome. And we had freaking studs, just total studs. Legendary SEALs come through that training, legendary badass SEALs come through that training and totally humble.

• 13:40Jocko Willink?

  And be like, yup, we screwed that up and just be awesome. And they would turn their platoon around and just kick ass. And it would be unbelievable. And then you'd have other guys come through, whether they had a lot of experience or not, or whatever their background was, where they didn't have any humility. And it would just eat them alive. It would be horrible to watch and you couldn't really help them.

• 13:59JP Dinnell?

  It was painful.

• 14:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it was painful. But having this training and running this training and seeing the, the, the literal transformation of minds. To see, you could see, I, it's a light switch. Sometimes it's a light switch for some guys, some guys, it's a little bit more like a dimmer switch that's getting turned on. But to see them go from not understanding how to lead to fully being capable of how to lead was incredible. And we would see it because in the beginning of, let's say, the, the field training exercise time of land warfare or of urban training. The first couple of days, you know, it's four or five days, maybe six days of training.

• 14:45Jocko Willink?

  The first few days, the platoon is getting annihilated, annihilated. And as they start to learn the lessons, as they start to implement the lessons, all of a sudden you fast forward to the last day. And the, the opposing force, the bad guys can't get anything done. They're getting locked down, they're getting shot, they're getting pinned down, they're getting maneuvered on because the leaders learn how to lead. And, and that's why, you know, eventually we took this, this training and wanted to duplicate it for the business world. So we could get these same tools to help organizations and, and help leaders learn to lead, which

• 15:26Jocko Willink?

  is the most important skill in the world, bar none.

• 15:30Jocko Willink?

  But JP, you ended up taking that you ended up coming over here. We'll get into that. But let's talk about when you came home from deployment to Ramadi and you immediately went to Bud's for a short glorious and uh crazy.

• 15:45JP Dinnell?

  Do we have to talk about that?

• 15:47Jocko Willink?

  No, but just fill us in. It's actually kind of funny. I was talking to a couple of young team guys the other day and I was explaining to them that when you came home, you went and they were like asking about you. And I said, you know, we know he came home, he, he went to Bud's and, and they were like, ooh. And I go, oh, it was not.

• 16:07JP Dinnell?

  It was bad. I mean, it was so bad. I just, it's embarrassing. Really. You know, it's embarrassing because you, we just came back from Ramadi and you know, I'm, I'm looking at all these guys going through training, comparing them to Mikey and Mark and Ryan and Cowie and all the guys in our task unit that were injured, right? And that stayed in the fight. I mean, we had multiple guys get wounded on that deployment that stayed on deployment. And then those Marines and those soldiers that we worked with were some of the bravest humans we'd ever been alongside. And so I'm, I'm mad that I'm not overseas because I wanted to still be over there. And I got pulled from my

• 16:51JP Dinnell?

  platoon. And that was what was the worst part is because I had shoulder surgery, ended up with some temporary nerve damage where I would just drop something. Well, you can't be in an active platoon when that happens. And so I get pulled from the platoon.

• 17:05Jocko Willink?

  What phase did they put you in?

• 17:07JP Dinnell?

  Indoc. So before they even start first phase.

• 17:13Jocko Willink?

  So how old, how old were you? Like 23?

• 17:17JP Dinnell?

  I was still 23. Yep, I remember. Yeah, I was I was 23 when I was at Bud's. No, I'm sorry. I was I turned 24 and then I went there because I had the surgery and like the rehab.

• 17:29Jocko Willink?

  So it's a little more time passed.

• 17:31JP Dinnell?

  I mean, not much. I mean, come back from Ramadi. Yeah. And then, you know, we started the workup. I was I went to, you know, I was going to school. We started the workup. And had to have surgery, issues with the surgery, you know, there I was at the I was still at Team Three for a while. And, you know, because Stone was my Task Unit Commander and I I mean, I was just super fired up. I could I was so excited to go back and I think we knew we were going to be going to Sodas Sodder City at the time. And so anyway, so I get pulled. I go to Bud's. And I am just an absolute train wreck right there. I'm comparing all these, like I said, all these guys to Mark and Mikey and Ryan and Cowie and like, so.

• 18:16Jocko Willink?

  What are you supposed to be doing in Indoc? You're supposed to be just P T ing them and kind of like.

• 18:20JP Dinnell?

  You're preparing them for first phase.

• 18:22Jocko Willink?

  Right. So you're not supposed to be beating the shit out of them?

• 18:24JP Dinnell?

  No.

• 18:25Jocko Willink?

  Did you comprehend that?

• 18:29JP Dinnell?

  Well, when I got pulled aside and they said, hey, JP, this isn't first phase. You're not supposed to have this many guys quit.

• 18:41JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, I was.

• 18:41Jocko Willink?

  How long did you last? It wasn't that long.

• 18:43JP Dinnell?

  Wasn't long. Thank God. Like for the community because I mean, so like I said.

• 18:49Jocko Willink?

  What would you what was your favorite way to torture students? Because I was thinking about this too. So you get this leadership laboratory that we had where what we figured out was what exactly what where to apply pressure, where to relieve pressure on these leaders to force them to start to understand how to lead. And how if they didn't understand it, how they were going to break. But I was thinking about it. If you're a Bud's instructor, what you learn is how to get into people's heads and and apply pressure to make them break.

• 19:20JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 19:22JP Dinnell?

  Yeah. So one of the I'll give you two examples of some stuff like one that was probably like the worst that I did that I definitely should not.

• 19:30Jocko Willink?

  Is there a statute of limitations on this stuff? Have we cleared?

• 19:36JP Dinnell?

  I'm sure, I'm sure the leadership knew about this eventually. It was at the end of the day and they were leaving the pool deck and all the other instructors had gone and

• 19:47Jocko Willink?

  That's a mistake right there.

• 19:49JP Dinnell?

  All the instructors and I was by myself and

• 19:53JP Dinnell?

  there was a lot of other stuff that was going on in my life. So I literally had no life outside of this. So I didn't have to go back home. I actually got a room at the barracks. So I didn't even have to leave. I was just sleeping in the barracks there, like just making these students life absolute hell. I mean, I was, it wasn't cool what I was doing. Like I know that I'm very apologetic and I feel really bad now that I'm older and a little more mature. But um, one, one of the times I like I took, like they were trying to leave the pool deck and someone did something stupid. Like, you know, a basic student thing, like it should have been like 20 pushups or, you know, make them like jump in the pool with their gear and come back out and go. But I was like, nope. I brought them down to the pool deck. Like, so you know, the observation? Like deck down below.

• 20:36Jocko Willink?

  Oh, where you're underwater?

• 20:37JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, you're under the pool deck and underwater.

• 20:39Jocko Willink?

  And you can see the pool.

• 20:41JP Dinnell?

  You can see the pool and it's dark down there and nobody knows you're down there and nobody can hear that you're down there. So I brought them down there and closed the gate to the compound to where it looked like everybody was gone and beat them down there for I, it was over an hour. And then I'm just like, just doing different like flutter kicks, like the belly back feet drills where they're just rolling. I mean,

• 21:02Jocko Willink?

  On your back, on your belly, on your back, on your belly.

• 21:04JP Dinnell?

  Belly back, belly back, feet, belly back, feet. Yeah, just, all right, you guys can't seem to get in sync and then just continue going through it.

• 21:14JP Dinnell?

  So anyways, that happened. And then another time, um, I was just walking by the barracks and looked in one of the windows of the barracks and it was unlocked. And I'm like, oh, cool. Climbed in their window, into their room, was doing a little inspection, opened up the fridge and there was like two 18 packs of beer. And I was like, Okay, so I emptied every beer into the room and then went and found the class OIC, brought the OIC, OIC in there and the kids that were in there were underage.

• 21:41Jocko Willink?

  Oh.

• 21:42JP Dinnell?

  I was like, how do you guys want to handle this? Like, I wasn't gonna try to get these kids in trouble for underage drinking because I'm not gonna be a hypocrite. When I went through Buzz, I was eighteen and guess what I would do on the weekends? I would go have some beers with my friends. Like, I know it happens. And if you drink underage, I know you're not, I'm not condemning this, but if you're trying to go into the SEAL teams and you're gonna have a beer underage, like, for me, that's not something that's like, oh, we can't trust that guy. You know, in our, especially in our community. I know it's not right. I'm not saying it's right.

• 22:11Jocko Willink?

  Well, yeah, and nowadays it's.

• 22:12JP Dinnell?

  Oh, nowadays, you're done. You're done. A hundred percent. And zero tolerance is an actual real thing now. And so there's, I wasn't gonna, I was at least, at least stable enough to know that I'm not gonna ruin somebody's career over this. That, that's not fair. Because that happened to my brother. My brother was in A school with a contract to go to Buzz. He would have been like two, no, four Buzz classes behind me. And he was training in A school, got injured, and so he got rolled back to where he couldn't class up, had surgery, came back. Most kids in A school, right? They go off base, they have some drinks. He came back, came back, they had been drinking. Turns out like.

• 22:57Jocko Willink?

  Was he, so was he underage?

• 22:59JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, he was underage. He was eighteen at the time. And he got in trouble and they were like, who, who was with you drinking? And he's like, it was me. I was the only one drinking. They're like, who was with you? He wasn't gonna say anything. He was gonna rattle the guys at all. I didn't know about this until recently, until a guy who was in the teams at a different command, running training, told me, he's like, the reason why I'm still in the Navy and here is because of your brother. I'm like, what? He goes, yeah, your brother covered for all of us. My brother didn't like, was like, nope, it's just me. So my brother ended up getting admin stepped out of the Navy for underage drinking. And lost his contract to go to Buzz and everything. Yeah, so I knew that happened to Corey. And Corey's a freaking stud. He met my brother. He's super smart. Like, he's one of the smartest guys I know.

• 23:43JP Dinnell?

  He's a, he was a physical stud, still is, and it's just.

• 23:47JP Dinnell?

  I wasn't gonna be, I wasn't gonna do that. So I gave the OIC, AIC an option and we secured him for the weekend. And it was just uniform inspections about every 90 minutes. And um, yeah, crappy thing. I didn't know it until I came to check out muster 001 with y'all, met Jamie Cochran. And she's like, yeah, you might know my husband. He was in the teams. And she's like, his name's Flynn. I was like, I don't know. I don't know Flynn. And then later on, I see him. I'm like, what's up, bro? And he like gives him a bro hug. And I was like, what are you doing here? He's like, my wife Jamie. She's like, you guys know each other? And he goes, yeah, I was instructor to Del. I'm like Cochran. That's how we knew each other. I didn't know.

• 24:28JP Dinnell?

  And Flynn tells Jamie, he's like, yeah, JP's the reason why I missed our wedding. I was like, what? Well, that weekend that I secured him, he was OIC. He didn't tell me. He was supposed to be flying up to Seattle to have a wedding. Him and Jamie got married. But then they were having a big ceremony.

• 24:47Jocko Willink?

  Official, sorry. They did the official one, but now they're doing a party.

• 24:50JP Dinnell?

  Official, doing a party for all the family. Well, I secured him that weekend. And so he missed out on that. And I was like, oh, this is great. So this is my first introduction to Jamie, five years ago. And yeah, so, yeah, when I was an instructor at Bud's, I was, I was thinking about when I went through Bud's, what some of the instructors used to do. And some of those instructors were

• 25:11Jocko Willink?

  Evil.

• 25:11JP Dinnell?

  Evil. Yeah, that, you know, the, you know, about the, the red circle, right? The red circle in dive phase where you'd have to bear crawl with all your gear on until there was blood in a circle from guys like hands and feet getting raw and just crazy stuff like now there's.

• 25:28JP Dinnell?

  I'd be surprised if some of that stuff still went on.

• 25:30Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, they have, they have other ways.

• 25:32JP Dinnell?

  Hey, they have other ways and there should be other ways to

• 25:35Jocko Willink?

  There's

• 25:36JP Dinnell?

  thin the herd and hold that.

• 25:38Jocko Willink?

  There's a, that training is freaking hard right now.

• 25:42JP Dinnell?

  Oh, yeah. It's, it's probably harder. I guarantee you, it's probably harder. And just in a different way and they're smarter.

• 25:48Jocko Willink?

  They're not like, like, I mean, I had a instructor that got in trouble because he would test the sharpness of the knives by cutting people's freaking palms. Right? Like, that's what is happening.

• 25:58JP Dinnell?

  That's crazy.

• 25:59Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, he got in trouble for it. Uh, we had an instructor that got in trouble because we had to do pushups on the back of our hands. With twin 72s on our backs.

• 26:08JP Dinnell?

  Messing, yeah.

• 26:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I mean, you're just, oh, hey, why don't you just, why don't you just hit people's freaking hand with a ball peen hammer just to call it good?

• 26:16JP Dinnell?

  I remember one time, I, I came back to the court, like I said, I lived on base. I mean, I had a room, I lived with Derek Benson, who was my homeboy for, since, like, we checked in the teams together and just really, you know, another good team guy from Northern California. He had an awesome house, we lived, I lived there. But I was so obsessed when I was a buzz instructor and I, so I was living on base, like I said, I had the room in the barracks and I was staying there and I, I caught, um, a guy at the quarter deck watch asleep. And I just beat his boots off, man, for like three hours straight. And then I made him call the OIC who lived down in I B. He had to get dressed, he came in.

• 26:59JP Dinnell?

  I was like, where's the LPO? So he calls him, he lives out in town as well. And I, it was just a beat session until all of them got there and I explained what happens when guys fall asleep on watch overseas. And I told him about the stories that we'd hear about Marines being murdered. Because somebody fell asleep when they're in, in a building, right? Or soldiers that same thing had happened to them. It's the same thing that we would talk about when we were in Ramadi. We weren't gonna let anybody else be in charge of standing watch unless you were a team guy because we knew we couldn't, like, we weren't gonna let the Iraqi soldiers, like, hey, you stand watch, okay, cool. Just gonna fall asleep, like leaning on his rifle and his toe on the trigger, like, it's just crazy. So, yeah, I was, I was, I was wound real tight.

• 27:42Jocko Willink?

  What was the straw that broke the camel's back? That, or was it, was, did anything specific happen where they're like, all right, we gotta get this guy out of here?

• 27:52JP Dinnell?

  It was just constant like I didn't. So the problem is.

• 27:56Jocko Willink?

  Cause I remember I.

• 27:57JP Dinnell?

  No, they called you guys.

• 27:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, they were like, hey, basically you need to come get your boy.

• 28:02JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, cause I.

• 28:02Jocko Willink?

  Freaking straight Ramos.

• 28:03JP Dinnell?

  I was T A D over there. I was temporarily assigned duty. I was temporarily assigned duty to the command. So I was getting ready to actually, I was probably gonna get in trouble because I, I didn't, well, the horrible thing is like, I didn't respect the chief that was in charge of the training. He's a piece of shit team guy. He just didn't represent the teams in well in anything with his life, his reputation, the teams, you know, we're, we're instructors at, at Bud's and he is grossly overweight. I'm just like, and it wasn't because of an injury. There are some guys that have injuries that go there. That's one thing. No, it was his actual lack of discipline. Just it was, I had zero respect for him.

• 28:43JP Dinnell?

  And so he was the one that was like pulling me aside and trying to like, hey, you shouldn't be doing this. And I'm like.

• 28:49Jocko Willink?

  You're going harder.

• 28:51JP Dinnell?

  Yes. Yeah. I'm like, okay. Yep. Roger that.

• 28:54Jocko Willink?

  You know that, that, that feeling of, this is the same type of feeling that I would have. So when we'd be out at Mount or something like this, when, when I was running it. And I'd see like a guy standing in the middle of the street and I would get like a knot in my stomach. I would, I would start to sweat and I would get so, cause so emotional about like, hey, this guy's gonna get fucking killed. And, and, and I can't imagine like here you are, you're having the same feeling, but oh, this guy's falling asleep on watch. This is a night, this is, I can't allow this guy in the teams. Like that level of commitment and emotional commitment to wanting to make sure that the guys that are gonna make it to the teams are the best freaking guys.

• 29:37Jocko Willink?

  And that was me. I was trying to make sure that these guys were ready and it was a, a very, it was an emotional thing. It was an emotional thing.

• 29:46JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, I was. A hundred percent like my, my marriage at the time wa- was falling apart. And I was okay with that because I was more concerned about the teams. And in hindsight, like, okay, cool. She was a good person. We weren't good together. Like, I'm very thankful that that didn't work out because of my family that I have now. I'm very thankful. But I was so just in the team, like, that's all that mattered was the teams, the teams, the teams. And I, you know, I just, I was, like you just said, I was just emotionally involved and connected all the time. You know, I, I saw guys that I put through training and they'd come back through training later on, like, the training we ran, and then I'd see them out in the teams. And I'm always like, hey, man, I'm sorry. They're like, bro,

• 30:29JP Dinnell?

  you cared about the teams. Like, we're good with that. And it's funny. Because the guys I made through training, that turned out to be good team guys, it bothered none of them. Not one of those guys ever were like, yeah, that kind of sucked. They were just like, bro, you were in the game. Like, you just came back from, so they, they understood it. And what you just said is, you know, the, the leadership thing, right? You're so emotionally invested in getting these guys trained and developed. And when you took over training, you saw the void of the leadership training. Our tactics are ridiculous. The amount of money and the high level of training that we have with it comes to all the, like, the tactical stuff that we do is, is awesome. Can we make it better all the time? Yes, we're, we're always trying to make it better.

• 31:12JP Dinnell?

  But we actually didn't have any actual leadership development. And it showed in all other areas of the teams. And I know I've talked with you a lot about this is, I was very aware that I was young and immature and not going to be a good leader. I knew that. And I wanted, I craved that leadership development and training. And I saw it outside of the military. Like, I was reading business books and personal development books because I knew I just needed that. And the teams didn't have that until you, I always thought it was crazy, you didn't go to, like, leadership development training until you're in E7, E8, E9. I'm like, they need it as an E3, E4, E5, E6, where there's a large portion of our community is at that rank.

• 31:53JP Dinnell?

  And they have a large amount of interaction with other forces out there. They need professional development and leadership development. And it wasn't until you took over Trade at that we didn't have that.

• 32:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that it was really strange the way the teams used to be and you it was all OJT and you were gonna learn. You learned your leadership skills from whoever your chief was, whoever your platoon commander was, you know, your platoon commander is probably gonna learn from his chief. But which is awesome. If you have an awesome chief.

• 32:21JP Dinnell?

  If.

• 32:22Jocko Willink?

  And if you don't have an awesome chief, you you don't and and sometimes you'd get it like a platoon chief coming through our training. And you he'd have issues. And you could pull the thread and see like who he did his LPO for, who he you could kind of figure out what his background was because. You would just get this string of people that just weren't really the best leaders. They were, you know, people that led through their rank or people that didn't understand tactics. And so you end up with you had a very wide variety of a a a wide span of skills that these leaders had. And there was no one, there was no one teaching them, all right, here's the here's what you need to do as a leader. So when I put together that freaking leadership brief, it was like, okay. It was.

• 33:07Jocko Willink?

  I was very lucky to be able to do that and that's what that that's what was cool. That was awesome for me. And you know, it's funny because. I never said to like, I never said to Leif or to Seth, like, hey, here's the four laws. I didn't say that to him.

• 33:23JP Dinnell?

  That's what we did.

• 33:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I was like, hey, dude, hey, you need to put your machine gunners out if you're going across the road or why you need to cover for them. You need to cover for them. Okay, that's covered move like. Dude, your plan is freaking way crazy complicated. So. Those guys got it over time, you know, um, just through repetitive interactions. Of saying, dude, what do you do trying to get a headcount right now? You're freaking getting shot at. What are you doing? Like you stoner be like, Roger, you know, like, no, handle that shit. And so all those I had a bunch of things in my head, but when I got to trade at, that's when I was like, oh. I well, that was a that was the huge eye opener for me. I had Leif and Seth and the and the officers and be able to say like, hey, we're gonna do that duration again.

• 34:05Jocko Willink?

  We're gonna be here for a month at Land Warfare. I'm gonna get to teach you this little things, make little adjustments. But when I took over Trade at, it was like, oh, I'm gonna see this platoon for a week here and a week there and a week there. And I need to dump them all this information as quickly as I can. In a way that they can understand it. So that's why the very first thing that I went, the very first training evolution I went on, went back and wrote down those four laws of combat.

• 34:31JP Dinnell?

  It goes on one of the things that we talk about and we teach at Ashland Front is when you put somebody in charge of training or in charge of just anything, it changes the way they think. And naturally, so you had been thinking this way for your whole career, but it wasn't until you were in charge of trade it that you were actually more mindful of, oh, and then you just sat and you thought about it. And it's, it's one of the things that we do, obviously in the field training exercises is everyone gets rotated through different positions of leadership. But you started really implementing it at trade it where every, or actually, no, I'm sorry, in our task unit where everybody was going to be in charge of something.

• 35:11Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 35:12JP Dinnell?

  And it was like, hey, Biggles, you're in, you're the task unit commander for this run. What? JP, you're going to be the acting platoon chief. What?

• 35:22JP Dinnell?

  But once we were in those positions of leadership, it forced us to think differently. And then once we had that new, you know, thought process, it changed the way we operated going forward. And that's why training is so critical to success.

• 35:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I was thinking if you were right or not, and you were right, because I was thinking, if I would have just done another task unit, I would have done the same, exact same thing. I wouldn't have, I would have trained the guys the same way. And I would have trained the guys through more of an indirect method of like, hey, let's do that again. Oh, you need to make sure you're covering. Hey, make, that's a little bit complex. I would have done it the same way I did it with Leif and Seth and the rest of the guys like, hey, this is what you're going to learn over the next year. I wouldn't have said, oh, this stuff needed to be distilled down. Here's the way it's going to be. And I need to kind of get this formula that people can utilize immediately. I wouldn't have done that if it wasn't, if I hadn't been put in training. So yeah, you're right. You're right.

• 36:20Jocko Willink?

  I think I, you know, whatever I heard like a little rumor or whatever. I don't know who called me, but someone, you know, basically it was like Colonel Troutman was getting the call. Like you need to come get your boy.

• 36:33JP Dinnell?

  Because you're gonna have to give the reference. So people understand what you're talking about.

• 36:37Jocko Willink?

  Oh, Rambo, Rambo, Colonel Troutman, you know, Rambo's out in the woods, um, uh, you know, killing civilians, killing friendly civilians. There are no friendly civilians, but he's out there doing that and they have to go get or Colonel Troutman shows up to get him out and freaking get him back under control. And I got some kind of a call like that. And it's so funny because everybody knew 100% that I was 100% going to absolutely take you, bring you, shield you. And there was going to be no beef about this whatsoever. No one even made like any reference to anything other than this is 100% good to go.

• 37:15Jocko Willink?

  Jaco, you, you know, JP not really fit in here too. Come get your boy. All good. It wasn't like, hey, this guy, no one even, no one even would say a negative thing about you. They were just saying like, hey, you, you might, he might be a little, a little better. If he goes back working for you again. I'm like, check.

• 37:33JP Dinnell?

  A hundred percent factual. I don't know who it was. I want to say,

• 37:39JP Dinnell?

  I mean, dude, that was so long ago, but I feel like it was Z. I feel like some, you know, it might've been Bobby. So Bobby was there.

• 37:48Jocko Willink?

  At Bud's?

• 37:49JP Dinnell?

  At Indoc with me and he actually pulled me. So he pulled me aside a few times and I had always had tremendous amount of respect for him.

• 37:57Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Yeah. Bobby's awesome.

• 37:59JP Dinnell?

  Yeah. He's a stud guy. I always looked up to. And there's a few times like he pulled me aside and I was just like so wound tight. But this shitty chief that was in charge of us just completely like, even though Bobby was like, kind of reining me back. And I was like, okay, yeah. And then. This guy, I was like, nope, gotta go harder until, I mean, he might have, I don't know. I don't know, but he might have reached out to Z. Z got ahold of you. Either way, it was, I was probably gonna get in trouble. And um, they were like, oh, he's T I D. He's, well, where is he at? Oh, he's still at Team Three, but he can't go back there. Jaco, bring him to Trade At. And I remember when I went there, because that day I checked in there, I went out to talk with you.

• 38:40JP Dinnell?

  You went and introduced me to a few guys, and it was, I was like, this is where I need to be. And I still, I know we'll get into this a little bit more. There's, I was excited to be there, fulfilled to be there, but I didn't fully grasp.

• 38:56Jocko Willink?

  Well, yeah, it took you a little, they took you, you still wanted to be overseas, shooting people.

• 38:59JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 39:00Jocko Willink?

  Which is a big gaping hole in your heart when you're not overseas shooting people. And instead, you're back in America, which is just boring and miserable, and you didn't want to be doing that. Whether it was instructing in-doc students or at Trade At. But yeah, we just had to make a little connection between, you know, you being at Trade At, and by the way, making sure our guys are the best trained in the world.

• 39:25JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 39:25Jocko Willink?

  And that's the conversation we had.

• 39:27JP Dinnell?

  Yep.

• 39:28Jocko Willink?

  And then you went right, you went, you went right into SALC. Did you go right into SALC?

• 39:33JP Dinnell?

  Yes. Yep. It was SALC and C K C. I was, I was running, I was in, in both. And then SALC is when, uh, I think I was there for a year, and then I became the L P O of SALC.

• 39:47Jocko Willink?

  So let's talk a little bit about um, SALC. And what's interesting, so this is again, this is urban training. We have a few urban training sites that we would use.

• 39:58Jocko Willink?

  We would set, they were very realistic, very realistic training. We had set designers come out to design things to make them look like they were little villages in Iraq or Afghanistan.

• 40:12Jocko Willink?

  We would have speakers with noise simulations coming over them.

• 40:19Jocko Willink?

  I remember we had, we'd set burn, we set tires on fire and because I remember the first time I went into Ramadi at night, the moosh had set fires, set tires on fire all over the place, totally screwing up your night vision. And I was like, damn, these, these dudes are next level.

• 40:34JP Dinnell?

  They're smart.

• 40:34Jocko Willink?

  Yep. And I was like, okay. And sure enough, we would have the fires going, we'd have the noise simulators going. So you hear like urban noises and then you do, then comes the call to prayer. And it's very realistic. When I would put down my nods, because I'm an instructor, whatever, I'm in my instructor mode, when I would put down my nods and start walking, I would 100% feel like I was, I was in Iraq. So the realism is legit, totally legit. Um, the interesting thing is that coming into the training, we would tell them

• 41:18Jocko Willink?

  exactly what they needed to do to win. And this is what, this is why, this is what's interesting. So going to CQC, when I go out and watch CQC, you'd have some instructors that would like to talk a lot. And you'd have another instructor that, or another group of instructors where they do a little bit more action, a little less talk, a little more do. And you take those two groups, like there'd be one platoon with a talking instructor and one platoon with an action instructor. And so the, the talking instructor, he's sitting there telling stories and talking about this and giving all these details and talking through it again. And hey, watch this and watch me do this and let me explain to you this and talk and talk and talk and talk. And then there'd be another guy that hey, here's the basic, here's the fundamentals. All right, start doing it. And almost, well,

• 42:03Jocko Willink?

  it's guaranteed that the platoon that started doing it is going to learn it quicker. The platoon that just gets to hear about it, it's not going to, it's not going to land. Now, look, you need some level of instruction. Somebody needs to tell you like, this is what we're doing. This is how we do it. You can't just go blind, obviously. But what's interesting is we would tell the guys, hey, here's what you need to do to win. Cover and move, simple, prioritize and execute decentralized command. You, you need to do that. If you don't cover and move out here, you're going to get shot up. If you don't have a simple plan, it's going to be insane. And we're going to have a bunch of problems. You need to prioritize and execute. By the way, you need to use decentralized command because things will be happening that not

• 42:45Jocko Willink?

  one person can control. You need to detach, take a step back. Like, we would tell them these things. We would tell them. But they would understand it, but then you gotta go and do it. You gotta go and get put into those situations.

• 43:06JP Dinnell?

  I mean, I'm just writing so much down, like, since we started talking, I just want to hit all these points. But what you're just talking about goes along with, I remember when I was at trade at one of my chiefs told me, as an instructor, he's like, hey, we have to teach these guys how to think, not what to think. Because the battlefield is very dynamic, and these guys need to be able to think on their own. And it wasn't until we actually had them out there doing it. It doesn't matter. You can give a scenario all day long, you can tell stories, but until somebody's actually putting their hands on it, it doesn't matter. I, you know, I teach shooting on the side, and I can talk about it all day long, but until I have somebody actually loading rounds into a magazine, and then locking the slide

• 43:50JP Dinnell?

  to the rear, and be like, oh, that little butt, yeah, that's how you lock the slide to the rear. And I can talk about it all day long, but if they've never done it, to watch somebody fumble over the most basic thing that I think is just the most basic thing ever, but if they've never shot before, that's actually a real big deal. Locking the slide to rear, putting a loaded magazine into a gun, releasing the slide, making sure rounds chambered, these are things that you and I do without even thinking.

• 44:13Jocko Willink?

  No thought whatsoever.

• 44:14JP Dinnell?

  No thought whatsoever. I can hear the slide go forward and know if a round is chambered or not. Whether, was that magazine seated all the way, was it not? Did a round actually get chambered? And I've done that before. I'm like, there's nothing in there. And I checked the magazine, it wasn't fully seated. Check the chamber, yep, no round in there. Because we've done it hundreds of thousands of times. Someone who's never done it, they actually have to do it before they can feel it. And when people feel it, then that's what, that's when it, it comes home. Like you were saying earlier, like, when you, when you make a mistake and you feel that mistake, when, um, The cool thing about the FTX program is I've been able to build a team, you know, and Cody's been on full time with us for, geez, almost over three years now. We just

• 44:56JP Dinnell?

  got Carlos Mendez on, on board full time, or, I mean, you know, all these guys I have on the team are studs, you know, Cowie, Danny, and we do what we teach, right? And so now my team is doing all the classes, all the intros in the morning, so I can be detached, I listen, observe, I come in with my points when I need them. And one of the things Carlos always says, that I always said, that Cody always says, that you guys always say is, hey, when you make a mistake where it costs you something, you feel that and you remember it. And it's just, that's the power of, of training, is when you can feel a mistake, you'll remember that mistake.

• 45:33Jocko Willink?

  There's something, when you said you gotta do it, right? It's so strange, the experience that you can watch people have as they get wrapped up and absorbed and overwhelmed by the mayhem. And this happens when you run your FTXs, when I'm out there, I'll watch people go insane. They're totally, they're having an out of body experience, like an out of mind experience. It's crazy to watch. And sometimes they don't even understand it. I, I remember when we first started getting video cameras, and we started videoing training, this was like, the first time I would say I, I videoed

• 46:13Jocko Willink?

  training was maybe in the late 1990s. Hey, let's watch our room entries and see what they look like. And occasionally you'd get a guy that would just do something so insane, and they wouldn't even understand that they had done it. They, they wouldn't understand that they had done it, and you'd have to say, look at the video. Watch, watch what you just did. We'd be like, hey, you backed out of that room. I didn't back out of the room. No way. Okay, watch this. There you are, literally backing out of the room, right? You, you didn't even understand that you did it. Remember I used to have my little audio voice recorder?

• 46:49Jocko Willink?

  So I used to carry a little audio voice recorder, Echo Charles. And the reason, cause at during these nighttime FTXs, there's all this stuff happening and you can't write notes. So I would just, most of the time, I'd just be saying, oh, they pulled a guy off the flank over there. That guy's left by himself. That this is gonna go bad. I would be making notes to myself and then I'd come back and be like, hey, you guys left that guy on the flank. That's how he got left behind. So I would make notes myself, but then sometimes I would use it to capture the audio of what was actually occurring, of people losing their minds, of people yelling, screaming, giving crazy orders, not under, like, I would record conversations that were mutually unintelligible between two people,

• 47:29Jocko Willink?

  where two people were talking to each other and neither one of them, it made, you could play it and it'd be, it would be a senseless conversation that made no sense whatsoever. They're talking about two totally different things. Like one guy's like, we need to get back over there. And the other guy's like, yeah, we do. But one person is talking about back over there behind the building. The other person's talking about back over there across the street. They're talking about two totally different things. And you, I would record them and, and then play it back for them. And they'd realize how absorbed and how you get into this mode where your world is shrinking. You're, you're getting target fixation. You're, it's the opposite of detachment. You're doing the opposite thing. You're just getting fixated on what's right in front of you and it'd be a total disaster.

• 48:09Jocko Willink?

  But what's good is when they'd hear that video or they hear that audio and you'd see the look on their face like, damn dude, I suck. I suck. I sounded like an idiot. I sounded like a complete idiot. And then that would be a way to kind of crack the ego open and crack the mind open and for them to be like, dude, what are you saying I need to do? Yep. Here's what you need to do. Take a step back, man. When the stuff starts getting crazy, when people start yelling, if you're yelling, you're the platoon commander. If you're yelling and screaming, this is not a good indication. So as soon as you start raising your voice, think to yourself, why am I raising my voice right now? What, what is happening? I'm not saying you never have to raise your voice, cause sometimes you do. Sometimes you gotta, you gotta get control of things.

• 48:54Jocko Willink?

  But if that's what's happening. You know something's wrong. So guys would, that's what would start to kind of get their minds open sometimes where they would start to realize like, oh, I'm not as good as I thought I was. And I just had a freaking out of body experience and I think I might be an idiot.

• 49:16JP Dinnell?

  That, that's what makes the field training exercise program that we run at Echelon Front. That's what makes it the most impactful form of training that we have at Echelon Front. Because you're feeling it. Like you said that late, this isn't just me saying, because it's my, my program, right? It's

• 49:35JP Dinnell?

  because it's the truth. Like you actually feel it. You come back from a run and you're humbled and you're sitting there and the first thing we do is we debrief that run. All right. What was your key takeaways? And we're always very clear. Remember, we don't care about the tactics. We're not here to teach you tactics. I don't, if you were supposed to come up on the east side, you went to the west side, doesn't matter. What did, what was your takeaway that

• 49:57JP Dinnell?

  applies to business or your personal life? And so people are, like you said, that you just cracked it open. They feel that it's humbling. Um, we had a guy, like you're talking about, like people just saying crazy stuff. We've, we've heard this one multiple times. It'll be like squad one, line up on the left, squad two, line up on the left. And people are like, look around, why? And they're like, why is nobody moving? They don't realize they said that. We were running one a few weeks ago up in Michigan and it's one of our scenarios where I'm not going to give it out. But anyways, it's a stressful situation and all of a sudden we, we changed something on them. It's a prioritize and execute run. And the guy is sitting there and they come up with a plan and somebody asks a question. He's like, it's the plan that they came up with. We're going to do

• 50:40JP Dinnell?

  he was quoting as if it was somebody else's plan, but it was his plan that he just came, that he's telling the team to go, but he's so overwhelmed. And I remember I was watching him and he like just drops the laser tagger to the side, his hands to his side and takes a step back and looks around and goes, We're gonna do their plan.

• 51:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 51:03JP Dinnell?

  Oh, I'm writing this one down.

• 51:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 51:05JP Dinnell?

  And in the.

• 51:05Jocko Willink?

  Have you ever heard that Jason Gardner story? Jason Gardner, they get done, they're at CQC, they're like out, out right here in SoCal, just in our little kill house. They do a run and they're standing around debriefing. And one of the officers cracks off around as they're standing there debriefing, it goes between like a guy's legs. And the guy, the guy looks up and he, he goes, he was decocking it. Meaning he's talking about himself in the third person as if this, well, that's the exact same thing, dude. Like you're, when you start referring to what's happening as if it's someone else in a bad way. This is not a good sign.

• 51:45JP Dinnell?

  I stole your, uh, your voice recorder trick for when I got out and I was doing sales. And I'd be driving, you know, I was starting off cold calling and then I'd just go to appointments and I was more efficient on the road. But I would try to hit as many people as a day. And I get done with a run, well, I had to take notes on the conversation I just had so I could follow up with the right contract and everything else like that. But I also couldn't sit in a parking lot for 15, 20 minutes because I had other clients. I had that anxiety that I needed to go, go, go. Well, I was also commission based only, so I needed to get out there. And so I, I bought a, a recorder and I'd get done with the meeting as soon as I walked out of their doors to my rental car. I'd start debriefing myself on that meeting as I'm driving in the next one, stop.

• 52:28JP Dinnell?

  And then I would do that. And then at the end of the night, I would listen to all those notes that I had for each one. Generate the emails, contracts, whatever, get them sent out. And it was, I mean, I stole that from you from trade deck because it was efficient.

• 52:40Jocko Willink?

  I have some of those recordings. I sent, I sent a group text with some of those recordings. There's some, some team guy, because team guys used to record me debriefing. Now it wasn't me, it wasn't those things. I do have some of those things too, still. Some of the just out in the field, like, like, hey, what's going on right now? I have no idea. We're all gonna die. Uh, so some of the problems that we would throw at the teams, obviously giving them down men was, was a big one. And giving them civilians to deal with. Putting them in an IED field. We, we'd build little simulated IEDs so things are blowing up. Kinda, they would end up with split forces for whatever reason, whether we set up a target

• 53:23Jocko Willink?

  where it made sense for them to split forces, or we would just drive some situation that would make them split their forces, give them target and then change the target. So they've got like updating intel. And so that there's a bunch of problems right there. And we haven't even mentioned that there could be an enemy shooting at you, right? So those problems, down man, civilians, IED field, split forces, changing targets, you haven't even encountered the enemy yet, right? So, so you know, it's gonna get wild. And then, once we start bringing the enemy on, and that's when you start to get into, you know, barricaded shooters, and you're taking

• 54:02Jocko Willink?

  massive casualties, and hostage situations, you know, we would capture the, one of the SEALs, we'd get left behind, we'd capture them. I mean, I used to give 72-hour liberty if you could get a SEAL. Like if Jay, I'd be like, alright, boys, you bring me back a body, you bring me back a live one, you got 72-hour liberty.

• 54:22JP Dinnell?

  I brought, brought you back a few. And one of the times, I actually took the guy's camis and gear off of him.

• 54:27Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 54:28JP Dinnell?

  And then put all the clothes back on, and then joined back in with the group, and just started murdering everybody from the inside, got in one of their Humvees, drove off, came back, was just like shooting them with their own 50 cal, and they're like, like, what is our guy, like, because I was wearing the kit and the camis, and it, I looked like I was one of those guys.

• 54:45Jocko Willink?

  Yep. Yep. And that, that's the kind of mayhem that would go down.

• 54:50JP Dinnell?

  Well, it didn't help when you're like, JP, activate. Done. Eyes rolling back like a shark. What can I get away with?

• 54:59Jocko Willink?

  Oh, man. And here's, here's the deal. Like I said before, all those problems,

• 55:07Jocko Willink?

  they can be solved. And they can be solved by utilizing the laws of combat leadership. And if a leader didn't step up, and again, I don't care what leader, I don't care if it's an E5, I don't care if it was a new guy, if someone in the platoon didn't step up and, and start to lead, everyone would die. Everyone would die.

• 55:29Jocko Willink?

  And that was another interesting thing that we could do sometimes is is pull, take a platoon guy and be like, all right, dude, you come walk with me on this run and you can watch and you can see how this unfolds. And then you give them the ability to detach or sometimes just while some craziness is going on, I walk over and be like, hey dude, Kimmer, get off your gun, come over here, step back with me and look and see what's going on. Do you see what's going on? Yes. Do you know what decision to make now? Three seconds ago, you had no idea what to do because you were looking down a corner, pulling your trigger and nothing was happening. Everything was stagnant. I pulled you off that corner. Someone picked up for security for you. Now you look around and it's really obvious what you need to do, isn't it? Yes, it is.

• 56:10Jocko Willink?

  So you have to let people see and feel, like you were saying, feeling the laws, but feeling what it feels like to detach. And then they realize, okay, that needs to be my protocol. That's what, that's what I need to focus on. And the improvement and the learning curve will be so fast. Once guys started doing this, like I said, uh, by the end of the Salk training, by the end of land warfare training, the platoons would be able to crush the instructors most of the time. Most of the time. Yeah. Occasionally someone, we'd have a failing troop and they just couldn't get it together and they would get recycled, reloaded.

• 56:48JP Dinnell?

  Yeah. One of the things I wrote down when you were first talking and then you said it again is just as a reminder, when I, when I was acting as a role player, my, at the beginning of like them coming out there for that training, I would literally just have on a pair of Gator sunglasses, like not a mask, nothing else. Cause I wasn't really worried about being shot up too much. Like I just, I was really confident in my abilities as an individual. Because when you're moving as an individual, if you're good at what you do, you actually have some advantages. But as the training would progress along, the groups that were really starting to get it, I knew I was like, oh, this next run's gonna be really bad for me. It's like, I have a picture of me, I'll try to find it, where one of the runs, I didn't have a,

• 57:32JP Dinnell?

  I forgot to grab a ball of clava or, and I just had my Gator sunglasses. And I got shot two to three times in the face with ammunition and those plastic rounds were like sticking out of my cheek and my, but that's what would happen is when they would use the laws of combat. We couldn't beat them, even us use them because it's a full platoon.

• 57:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 57:54JP Dinnell?

  And when you're moving as a fire team, I, I can't do anything unless I'm acting as a sniper from a distance. Yeah, I'm going to have that advantage. But even then, if they're using the laws of combat and they, they understand the situation, then they're gonna, they're gonna pin me down, they're gonna maneuver on me, they're gonna call in air support, they're, they are going to win when they use the laws of combat.

• 58:17Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 58:18JP Dinnell?

  It's the same, it's the same thing for every aspect of your life.

• 58:22Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 58:22JP Dinnell?

  I don't care what your business is. If you decide to use the laws of combat, you will win personally and professionally. And I just remember like when guys would be progressing in training, I just knew I'm going to get my ass kicked. And there was times that I got my ass kicked as a role player and I loved it because it meant that we were doing our job.

• 58:42Jocko Willink?

  Hundred percent.

• 58:42JP Dinnell?

  And it meant that those guys were going overseas and what they were going to do, those enemy fighters was going to be glorious. And they were all going to come home.

• 58:50Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 58:51JP Dinnell?

  And that was the purpose. That's why, that was our mission.

• 58:54Jocko Willink?

  Yep. Yeah, it was so rewarding to see them start to step up and, and see the leaders start to lead and see the E5 mafia start to take control of stuff. And, and then it would just be mayhem, mayhem for the role players. You guys would be doing everything you could, cheat, lie, freaking sneak, bring yourselves back to life, just do everything you could. And they would just kick your ass because like you said, there's 40 of them. And there's maybe six, seven role players and you're just going to get your ass kicked. Oh, well, what if you come against a force that's 40, you know, why shouldn't we train to fight against 40 people? Well, no, we shouldn't because if we're not going to go fight a fair fight, we're not going to fight 40 against 40.

• 59:33JP Dinnell?

  If there's 40 enemy fighters, I'm going to bring 4,000.

• 59:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, exactly. And we would put them in scenarios like that as well, where what, what the right call would be to back off, leave. Oh, this building is so well defended that you just kept throwing bodies at it and throwing seals at it and they keep getting killed, keep getting killed, keep getting killed. No, take a step back, get your JTAC to drop a bomb on that damn thing.

• 59:55JP Dinnell?

  That's one of my favorite, or I wouldn't, I would say my top favorite run that we do in the field training exercise program is it doesn't matter what they do. If they keep pushing forward, they're all going to die. And it's not until we get done and we in the scenario and we end it right there. And we, we do a debrief real time so they can see it and feel it in their life.

• 1:00:18JP Dinnell?

  Shit.

• 1:00:18Jocko Willink?

  Yep. And then it's like, okay, so you have a business. You've invested in some marketing campaign. The return on investment has been zero. What should we do?

• 1:00:32JP Dinnell?

  Go harder.

• 1:00:33Jocko Willink?

  Put more money into it. Okay, so we put more money into it. What's the return on investment now? Nothing. Okay, what should we do? Well, it was my plan. I think it's a great marketing plan. Let's put more money into it. And we continue to go down that path. We don't take a step back. We let our ego drive our decision making process. And we realize that everyone dies. We lose all of our money, all of our marketing money for the year. Because we got committed to a plan that didn't make sense. And so those are the kinds of transfers of knowledge that goes from this, this thing that you feel during the FTX into a thing that translates directly to how you're running your business.

• 1:01:11JP Dinnell?

  We, we call that scenario murder hole.

• 1:01:16JP Dinnell?

  And it was really cool. Uh, we, we did that with a group that we had going. I mean, the amount of diversity of people that come through our field training exercise program is, is incredible. I mean, we've literally seen every walk of life come through that training. You have guys that are super fired up. I mean, they've got, they got the Jaco haircut. They're wearing the Jaco T-shirt when they show up. They're wearing the Origin boots, Origin jeans. I mean, they are in Origin belt, like head to toe, Origin, Jaco Fuel. They're like Jocko podcast stuff. I mean, they're like so.

• 1:01:44Jocko Willink?

  They're ready to lead 100%.

• 1:01:45JP Dinnell?

  Yes, absolutely. And then you have the complete opposite spectrum where it's an individual that you look at them and you're like, okay, they're not, you know, on, on the path when it comes to their health or working out or, you know, just, you could tell that in some of them, they don't want to be there. They're, they're there because their bosses made them come. Cause we do corporate and then individual ones. And I remember we were doing it with this group and they're, these people were, they were too smart. They're a group of engineers. And we get done with that murder hole. Scenario, we stop it and we stop in real time to show them the train and you know, and this lady, you know, if you were to judge a book by the cover, you're probably like, hey, she hates this.

• 1:02:28JP Dinnell?

  She doesn't want to be here. Like at the beginning of the day, that was just probably her body language. We get down with this run and I'm just talking through it and she goes, can I, can I say something? I'm like, yeah, absolutely. She goes, this represents, and she goes down this path of like something that happened. She goes, we were working on this coding problem and it should have been like two weeks. She goes, seven months later, and she goes, this is that, that's exactly, this is what we do all the time because of our egos. We get sucked into projects because of our egos. We need to actually detach and we need to actually understand what our priorities are. She's going through every, all this. I'm like, this is awesome. That's it. It was so cool. And she just has this big smile. She goes,

• 1:03:09JP Dinnell?

  this is the best type of training I've ever been to. And then I was like, all right, you guys ready for lunch? And it was like the run right before lunch. We go back and it was for me to sit back as an instructor and, and watch the guys run the training and, and have my points and I have my points written down. And then for the student going through the training to literally hit all my debrief points. Beautiful. Was incredible because it shows that they're actually taking on board what we're, what we're telling to them. But and the reason why is because the training's humbling. Like it's, you're going to be humbled in the training. I don't care who you are. You, you're going to be humbled in that training. And that's what's awesome is because that's when their learning really starts to happen.

• 1:03:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. The, the first time we tried it, the first time we tried an FTX with civilians, um, you know, Leif and I were doing it. This is when it was like Echelon Front was basically just Leif and me and we were, we, we tried it and you know, you don't know what, you don't know what the reaction's going to be. You don't know if the people are going to make those connections, those correlations between leadership on the battlefield and leadership in everything that they're doing. And it was so awesome. I mean, it was, you know, a bunch of stories, that exact same type of story like, oh, this is what we're, this is, you know, ops never support sales. This is the problem. And you're like, oh, you don't cover move for each other. This is exactly right. You guys are never there for us. And this was, so you get to see these things real time and, and as soon as we saw

• 1:04:36Jocko Willink?

  That application and how well it correlated, that was when I was super stoked for you to you to come over and with the long term goal of taking over that program, running that program and and growing it. So talk me through, talk, talk us through how, what does that program look like right now? And not, not like the broad program, but like, let's say I got a company. And I, I, I hear about this thing and I want to bring my team together. What am I doing? What is my, I got 20 people. I got my leadership team, my executive leadership team. What does the program look like?

• 1:05:12JP Dinnell?

  So it, well, we'll do like a preliminary call with the client to kind of figure out exactly what they want to do. And, uh, you know, Jack Daniel, he's, he's been doing all those calls and then it's for an FTX. He then does another call with them and me. And Jack's so awesome. He's like, bro, you're so busy. I don't want to put, and I'm like, hey, if it's for an FTX, put it on my calendar. We're doing a call.

• 1:05:34JP Dinnell?

  And I just, cause I really want to understand what their intent is. What are they looking to get out of it? Because every FTX, it's customizable to your industry, your problems, what you have going on. Now, as you know, the principles are universal. That's what's beautiful about this. And but, but we can make things to where they're different than the others to derive home certain points to, to you and in your team. So we do that call. And then, um, you know, now because of COVID, the virtual world, like we used to have.

• 1:06:03Jocko Willink?

  Real quick example, I'll have a company and they're growing rapidly. And the younger leaders aren't stepping up and making things happen. And on a call, they'll be like, look, we need to have better decentralized command. And then it's like, hey, JP, let's, let's set up some runs to make sure we really drive home the point of how necessary it is for subordinate leadership to step up and lead. That's the kind of adjustments we're, we're making so we can drive home specific, address specific issues that a company has.

• 1:06:36JP Dinnell?

  Yep, absolutely. So we'll be able to do that. I put them in, put in the notes and then as we're building out the scenarios. We'll be able to kind of change through all the different scenarios. But you know, most of the time we do a half day or a full day class ahead of time to make sure everyone understands the principles. You know, we talk about the Battle Ramadi, Laws of Combat, my sister victory, do some application drills. If that's something they want, if they don't, we just do a quick virtual to lead them up to it because the FTX program, you're going to learn the principles real time. So depending on the company's time and or budget, some companies, they don't have two full days where they can take the full team out of the field. That's fine. Well, we can send over a pre-recorded video that everybody watches.

• 1:07:18JP Dinnell?

  Or we can do a one hour, two hour, three hour virtual session ahead of time to prepare them with the principles. And then we, we come to them or they come to us. They can come to different locations that we have. The flexibility that we have with this program is incredible. And then the actual FTX is all the hands-on application. So we'll show up in the morning. We'll put them into their squads. We'll assign the leadership positions. We'll give them an intel brief. And then they get a plan, their first mission and go out there and.

• 1:07:48Jocko Willink?

  I think, did you skip, explain how you teach, you give, you know, Mary, who's never handled a weapon before, never been into a, never been, never handled a squirt gun before.

• 1:08:01JP Dinnell?

  Yep.

• 1:08:02Jocko Willink?

  And now all of a sudden you're going to have her clearing rooms. And I know when, when we first started, actually with you, I had to be like, bro, you're not going to make these guys into SEALs in two hours. They need to have the basic fundamentals of how to enter a room in a safe way, in a systematic way, so they can clear.

• 1:08:24JP Dinnell?

  Well, that's, that alone is a great example of me not asking enough questions from you and Leif to get like, your actual commander's intent on the field training exercise program. Cause in my mind, I'm like, cool, I'm going to teach them tactics and tie in leadership. And it's really important that they do all this stuff. And it's like, No, actually, I don't have to teach them any of this because we're not here for the tactics. So yes, we start off, we give them a, hey, here's what to expect brief. Like it's in all of our notebooks. We, we brief them on safety. We brief them on the fact that, hey, you're going to impose more stress upon yourself than is actually needed. Everyone kind of chuckles. I'm like, just you wait and see. And then after first couple of runs, everyone's like, man, I am putting too much stress on myself. I'm like, weird. It's like, we talked about that. And so we, we run through all this stuff to, to set the stage.

• 1:09:09JP Dinnell?

  So they know what to expect. And then we give them their gear. And so we invested into these high speed laser tag systems.

• 1:09:17Jocko Willink?

  Which by the way, is what we used in land warfare. We usually didn't use those in our urban training, but in land warfare in the SEAL teams, we used a high speed laser tag system that this thing is the civilian equivalent to.

• 1:09:28JP Dinnell?

  Yes.

• 1:09:28Jocko Willink?

  It's freaking legit.

• 1:09:29JP Dinnell?

  It's, and that was a complete god thing. Because when we were, we ran a few FTXs, it was all, it was airsoft. And that's cool because you're getting shot, but there's a, there's a major safety concern with airsoft. And people were lifting up their masks because they get fogged and like, we're having to stop training. And it took away the, from the purpose of the training, which was leadership. And as we say all the time, communication is what ties everything together. And they couldn't properly communicate doing airsoft or paintball because the mask. So I reach out to a team guy buddy. I'm like, hey, I know you did like some events for kids and you had laser tags. Like, can you give me that guy's info? So he sends it to me, I look it up, I'm like, oh, these, these aren't what you would think for laser tags.

• 1:10:13JP Dinnell?

  They're pretty legit.

• 1:10:15Jocko Willink?

  It's not looking like a Nerf laser tag thing.

• 1:10:17JP Dinnell?

  It's not like neon green.

• 1:10:19Jocko Willink?

  Which by the way, props to Nerfs. I've, I know you've heard me talk about this, those Nerf guns, the Nerf laser tag guns that I raised my kids with, are freaking legit for teaching tactics, by the way, just FYI.

• 1:10:28JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, I mean, if you're teaching your kids that, yes. How, it wasn't what we needed for the FTX program. And we had a client that was, that told us, hey, we want to do this, but they're, we cannot do airsoft or paint. We cannot have any safety risks. I'm like, okay. So I reach out to team guy buddy, gives me the info, I look up. Thirty-five minutes from my house, from when we had just moved there to Texas. And I'm like, okay, thank you, Lord. I go meet the guy. Guy was a veteran. I explained to him what we're trying to do. And he's like, well, I'm actually changing these systems to where they looked very realistic. And I was like, okay, this is awesome. So we invest into them. And so we have the gear,

• 1:11:11JP Dinnell?

  the sensors. And so what we do is we just, Cody and the guys, they give an awesome class on, hey, here's how you use these taggers. These taggers are tools, just like you have tools that work. Like you, in order for you to get the job done, your tool has to be used properly. So we explained to them how to use the taggers. And so when we have somebody that's super nervous, I've had people say, I'm not comfortable with guns. And I'm like, that's good. You shouldn't be comfortable around guns unless you have training. That's a, that's a good feeling that you have. But once you understand the use of weapons, you shouldn't be scared if you know how to use them properly. And I told this lady, I was like, it's the same thing for these taggers.

• 1:11:53JP Dinnell?

  One, these taggers can't hurt you. That's why we invested into them. So even if you accidentally pull the trigger and it's pointed at you or somebody's face, you won't hurt them. And the lady's like, okay, that's good. She was super well-entitled. And rightfully so. She had never been around a weapon or a toy gun at all. And then, um, which for me, it was a realization of like, the things I just take for granted of just my, what I've been around, just, it's not normal for most people. And so that was when we really shifted over to, hey, let's make them feel as comfortable as possible. Like if they're not doing something right, make sure we're not being like, hey, you know, getting on to them like we would team guys or Marines. Cause team guys and Marines are very

• 1:12:36JP Dinnell?

  good at going back to that default of like, hey, you stupid, like, okay, they'd never done this before. So. We have all the guys there and they're like helping them put on the sensors and hey, you want to plug in the sensor and we go through a class and we say, hey, these are your SOPs for how to use them throughout the day before you, you know, you, you get your intel, you plan the mission, you brief the mission, you get approval, then you've got to go find the key guy, the key guy's gonna turn on your guns, that key guy is a minimum wage employee, that's only job is to turn on your guns. Every single time we get that brief, every company's like, oh, we got one of those guys. It's just a minimum wage person that affects whether they can go do their job. The learning point

• 1:13:19JP Dinnell?

  there is, how do you treat that key guy? And we've had everything from, hey, motherfucker, you need to get our guns on because we're running late. And I was like, oh, I wonder how.

• 1:13:30Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that works out for you.

• 1:13:31JP Dinnell?

  Yeah. Excuse my language, all my church friends that are listening, I apologize. But that's like.

• 1:13:35Jocko Willink?

  You were quoting someone.

• 1:13:36JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, but that's extreme. Like, we will have that, we're, we're like, so we go, we give the class, and then we let them have fun. Like, all right, hey, shoot the guns, like, shoot them as fast as you can, here's how you reload it. We teach them how to put like a basic patrol. And I always tell them, like, hey, guys, these are not tactics, these are the basics. These are tools, single file, dual column, here's how you get a head count. And so we give them enough tools where they can actually go be successful on the first couple runs, based off of the level of those first couple runs.

• 1:14:08Jocko Willink?

  When you talked about, it was interesting, just to, just to point out, you were talking about the amount of stress that gets created. And I just wanted to say that, a lot of times people think, oh, well, you know, these are SEALs, they must be talking about all this physical stress. But it's actually, almost no physical stress. It's all, it's all mental stress. It's all the confusion, the chaos, the mayhem. And the, because the physical, this isn't a physical evolution.

• 1:14:38JP Dinnell?

  No.

• 1:14:39Jocko Willink?

  This isn't a physical evolution. There's no, in fact, you don't allow people to sprint or run.

• 1:14:44JP Dinnell?

  That, that's part of the in-brief. No running, absolutely no running, for, and for multiple Marines, one, safety. Like, hey, if you run, you roll your ankle, you hurt yourself, you trip, fall, you hit a tree, one of these buildings. Now you're done and you've taken away from the purpose of the training. The purpose of the training is for us to work on our leadership skills for you actually go through the runs. And I always tell the story of like when you're running training, when somebody would do something they're not supposed to, you would say, hey, stop doing the enemy's job. You get arrested out in town, you can't deploy, you get in a fight, you break your hand, you can't deploy, you can't run training, you can't do whatever, you've done the enemy's job. So I always, we tell them that to

• 1:15:25JP Dinnell?

  make it real like, hey, don't do the competition's job by taking you out of this training. You need to finish this training. People always is when you say, don't do the competition's job. I love, I love watching people's

• 1:15:38Jocko Willink?

  Looks on people's faces.

• 1:15:39JP Dinnell?

  Body posture change. And I mean, we, so to go back to that lady, she didn't even want to touch a tagger. And I'm like, cool. Just, hey, you know what? Here, let's get you a chair. We brought her a chair. We had her sit down there. Like, hey, just watch, just watch the class. By the time we get done with the class, she comes up, she's like, hey, do you have an extra like setup for me? And I'm like, Callie will get you taken care of. And she goes over, Callie gets her sized up, runs through her like, hey, real quick, let's make sure you're good with it. And that lady was a rock star.

• 1:16:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Well, if you think about it from somebody that's maybe not familiar at all with the military, not familiar at all with weapons, and they're just intimidated by it. And then they sit off to the side and go, oh, wait a second. This is legitimately like they're playing tag.

• 1:16:19JP Dinnell?

  Yep.

• 1:16:20Jocko Willink?

  But they have teams. This is a game that we're about to play. And I, I think I should play this game. And we're not going to get hurt. And so that's another thing, you know, we'll work with companies. Well, you know, we, we got people that aren't in the best physical condition. Can they walk down a hallway? Then then they can do this training. And what's interesting. So we're saying all this stuff. Look, you can't run, you can't get hurt, you can't shoot, or you're not going to shoot somebody. Um, no one's going to get injured. You throw all those things out. It's like, oh, that might be kind of lame, right? And here's the thing, I was just thinking about like Chief Shy, freaking police chief.

• 1:16:51JP Dinnell?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:16:52Jocko Willink?

  When the first time he came through one of these things, totally blown away.

• 1:16:55JP Dinnell?

  FTX 001.

• 1:16:56Jocko Willink?

  It's the, the leadership lessons that you learn. And we got, we got all kinds of vets going through going, God, I wish I would have had this when I was in the military. So believe me, even though it is, even though it is like,

• 1:17:12Jocko Willink?

  It's it's contained and it's presented in a way that is very safe and very

• 1:17:19JP Dinnell?

  Professional.

• 1:17:19Jocko Willink?

  Professional and very um almost this is the word I was looking for. I was trying to find the word benign. It seems benign. It's like, oh, wait a second. We're like, we can't even run and we're just gonna be moving around and these are just laser tag guns. It seems super benign. You'd think, oh, this sounds like it's not gonna be that big of a deal. And then you go to run number three where people are like, I need someone else over here. We got another. And we have total total chaos. Yeah, you're not supposed to run and people are sprinting. People are going crazy. People are losing their minds. People are giving orders that don't make any sense. All this stuff happens from a benign laser tag system. That's what happens. That's what unfolds.

• 1:18:02JP Dinnell?

  It's crazy. I mean, we've actually, we we had a guy that had um multiple sclerosis. To he was like, I mean, he had like a cane. And so we were doing the classes. He was sitting in a chair. My guys like took care. I remember watching how my guys took care of him without me even having to say anything and I shocker, got a little emotional watching that because I was like, my guys know they get it. You know what I mean? Like Cody and Coward taking care of this guy and he this guy had the biggest smile on his face because he felt because I know when he showed up, I remember he pulled me aside and was just like, hey, I'm probably not gonna be able to do anything. And you could tell he was upset because he wanted to be a part of it. And then when the guys were taking care of him, like for him saying like, oh, this is cool.

• 1:18:44Jocko Willink?

  It's on.

• 1:18:45JP Dinnell?

  It's on to the point where our guys were like, cool, all right, he can't keep up the group. He's not gonna be able to walk. We can drive him out to the playfield. And so we would drive him out there. The role players would drive him off as a sniper. And he would be put in places and it was awesome because I'm listening to the radio and I'm hearing the role players go, dang it, this guy keeps picking us off. And he was a huge part of the training. Um, you know, this one lady came through. She's like, hey, I just got done with my chemo. You know, I I'm not gonna be able to do too much. And we're like, okay, cool. Do what you can. We have positions for you. You can shadow me and act as the ground force commander and relay information. And it was after two runs. She was like, hey, can I get in there and actually have a position of leadership? And I said,

• 1:19:28JP Dinnell?

  absolutely. We changed up the the reorg and it was cool seeing people who showed up with.

• 1:19:36JP Dinnell?

  These self-imposed limitations, they, they came up with these excuses, for lack of a better word, for me, I'm not meaning this to them in a derogatory term if they're listening, but they had these excuses as to why they wouldn't be able to perform. And then when they realized that that was all BS, that that was imposed upon by themselves, nobody else gave them those limitations, they gave them to themselves, and they saw like, oh, actually, I can be a part of this. Oh, I can actually lead. Oh, I can actually do this. I can learn. It's incredible. I mean, just the transformation that you see from, and we had a lady who was like, we, we gave out the leadership. She comes up, she goes,

• 1:20:16Jocko Willink?

  When you say gave out the leadership, what you mean by that is you assign leadership for different iterations?

• 1:20:20JP Dinnell?

  Yes.

• 1:20:21Jocko Willink?

  Okay, here's who in charge of this.

• 1:20:22JP Dinnell?

  Yes. Each run has a new set of leaders. So you, like you're saying, your, your company of 20 people, everybody's going to go through multiple positions of leadership to where they feel all the different, like stresses, OIC, officer in charge, assistant officer in charge, squad leaders, fire team leaders, or just a shooter, where you're just trying to listen and do the work. It's, it's incredible.

• 1:20:44Jocko Willink?

  And you'll learn something new in each one of those levels, and you'll see things differently from each one of those levels, and you'll become a better leader by serving in each one of those levels.

• 1:20:53JP Dinnell?

  Like Denver Whitten from Dagan Construction, came to FTX 001, and he was like, super frustrated, like, and he's a very motivated, very smart dude, has a very successful construction company out in the Phoenix, Arizona area, and he came out to it, and he was just like, I remember, I remember watching him and listening to him, the comments he would say about the other guys, and then he got put in a position of leadership. And I think he said it to Leif, I'm pretty positive, he goes, I now know what my team feels. I now know what my team feels, and I've been doing all these same, and it was for him to have that aha moment. And then two weeks later, he hit us up, or no, a week and a half later, he goes, hey,

• 1:21:37JP Dinnell?

  I need to run an FTX for 50 of my employees. So we did two days of FTX training with a half day classroom on the backend of, how do you implement strategically, how do we implement all these takeaways? So you see all this stuff happening, real time from all different walks of life. It's, it's ridiculous.

• 1:21:55Jocko Willink?

  So I cut you off, you were talking about a female.

• 1:21:57JP Dinnell?

  Yes. So, thank you. Cause I was like, what, where did we go on this one?

• 1:22:05JP Dinnell?

  So we give out the leadership and she comes up and makes a comment goes, well, that's a mistake putting females in charge. And I look at her and this is from a company where they have a culture where if you say something offensive, like you're you get in a lot of trouble. And I looked at her, I'm like, if somebody else said that to you, would you find that appropriate? And she just pauses. She goes, well, I'm just being real right now. I'm like, well, that's actually a lie. Saying that just because of females in charge is going to go bad. I'm like, that's a lot. I was like, I know a lot of badass females that run companies that are kicking ass. I know a lot of badass female leaders in the military. That did some phenomenal things. I'm like, don't.

• 1:22:47Jocko Willink?

  Oh, so she was like, serious when she said that?

• 1:22:48JP Dinnell?

  Oh, she was dead serious. She wasn't. She was dead serious. Like, just like, this is going to be horrible, like body posture, like, like gun down to the side, like, and I was like, okay, so immediately I'm like, there's something there. Like, there's something deeper there, obviously, for her to be like, she was not thrilled and just thought it was gonna be bad. So I talked with Carlos and Cody, like, we give the intel, pull them aside. I'm like, hey, we just keep an eye on her. We need to, like, pour into her because she thinks it's gonna be horrible. Like, we need to make sure she gets the perfect and Los and Cody were like, yep, got it.

• 1:23:25JP Dinnell?

  Cool. We go do the run. Obviously, we put a bunch of stress on her. So we wanted her to feel it like we do everybody. It wasn't any different, but we were just very mindful of making sure we're watching and I, you know, because we've had some people come through the training where they just stopped. They're like, hey, I can't do this. It's too much. I'm like, yes, you can, like, come, come over here real quick. Let's talk through it. And they're like, okay. And this one guy was like, I, that was on me. I put too much stress. Sorry. I won't let that happen again.

• 1:23:54Jocko Willink?

  Self-imposed stress.

• 1:23:55JP Dinnell?

  It was to the point where the guy wanted to stop training. He tried to physically stop the training. So I want to make sure this didn't happen to this lady.

• 1:24:03Jocko Willink?

  Just FYI, if you feel like you are too stressed, this is a massive red flag that's telling you to detach. Take a step back, take a breath. Which is as soon as you said that guy, okay, step back, take a breath. He's like, oh, okay, I can see what's going on. All right. I'm ready to rock and roll.

• 1:24:16JP Dinnell?

  Yeah. And, and so I really felt like I just, I knew there was something else with, with this lady. So we get back from the run. It, it was hard, but guess what? They accomplish what they're supposed to accomplish. We get done with the run. We're doing the debrief. And it's in one of my notebooks. I remember I wrote down what she said. But the greater point was just the limitation she had. And I asked her, because she said something, her takeaway was, uh, don't limit what you're capable of. And that was like, awesome. And I said, expand upon that a little bit. And she goes, well, I just, I didn't think I'd be capable of this position.

• 1:24:59JP Dinnell?

  And I said, why? She goes, well, it's, it's a little bit deeper. I'm like, what do you got? Like, this is, like, this is the time for, let's talk through it. I said, if you're comfortable, if you're comfortable with it. She goes, well, from my past. I said, okay. And I know I'm like, riding a line that this could go really bad. But I also knew it was an opportunity that if we could talk through something that she never has to go through again, or just is able to let go of something, then our day has been worth it. Like, you know, that's what we're here for, is stuff like this. Because that's going to make her a better leader. If she can let go of these, you know, limitations that she's put on herself. She goes, well, when you come from another career where your life was threatened,

• 1:25:44JP Dinnell?

  and, you know, you, you know, your life was actually threatened. She goes, because you weren't doing what you should have done. She was like, I, I carry that.

• 1:25:57Jocko Willink?

  What was her old job?

• 1:25:59JP Dinnell?

  We didn't ask. I just didn't feel like it was a time, um, I should have afterwards, just to get a little more like, I guess, information or situational awareness. But, you know, we talked through it and I said, well, hey, I'm glad that you came to that realization. Like, these are one, that's the purpose of the training is for us to feel these things and realize like, hey,

• 1:26:20JP Dinnell?

  these tools work when we use them and all the other stuff that we have in our mind. A lot of it's all BS because it's, that's not the reality. And then we did our end of the day debriefs, like our key takeaway. So we do all the runs, we rotate through different positions. And then at the very end, it's like, hey, what was, what was your biggest takeaway that you're gonna?

• 1:26:41JP Dinnell?

  Leave this training with to implement back home and hers was, you know, same thing like, I'm not going to let my past define me. She goes, today is a fresh start. And I always try to explain that when I'm talking with clients and like, that's what you did when you came in and tasked you in a bruiser. Hey, we're not tasking a Bravo, we're tasking a bruiser. All the other stuff doesn't matter. Like, this is who we are and this is what we're going to do. And I like to also tie that in when I'm talking about Ramadi, you know, when we talk about like, hey, well, you come back from deployment, when we talk about the cost and the burden and all that stuff, I try to make it very clear when I'm talking with individuals or large groups, like,

• 1:27:20JP Dinnell?

  we're all going to have those dark times. We're all going to have those things from our past that could hold us back if we allow them to. But if that's all we focus on, like anger, frustration, darkness, guilt, doubt, all that, it gets us nowhere. And I know we've talked about this multiple times, but what you have to focus is the lessons that you've learned. And more importantly, what are you going to do going forward? And that's a big thing that we talk about in the field training exercises. Like, yes, hey, you guys made mistakes, but what are we going to do going forward as a group? If we're not sitting and debriefing and coming up with new standard operating procedures, we're wasting our time. If we were just to reorg and like, all right, hey, new leadership, go, new leadership, go, new leadership, go. There wouldn't, there would

• 1:28:00JP Dinnell?

  not be that progression that we get if it wasn't for the debriefs. And the debriefs are an awesome opportunity for you to do some self-reflection. And that's what's powerful, is that self-reflection.

• 1:28:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, what's interesting about that is this, this training program in situations like this, which I've seen and you've seen, when it goes beyond business application, beyond the combat application, obviously, beyond the business application, and it starts to get into people's souls and sitting there, listening to people debrief, seeing grown men.

• 1:28:47Jocko Willink?

  Weeping because they realize that they've made mistakes in their lives. Seeing, you know, women apologizing for behavior that they know they they shouldn't have done. And it was negatively impactful to their family. Like seeing those deeper, those deeper changes. That's always, uh, it's always amazing to see that this stuff applies and gets through. Gets through to people's souls.

• 1:29:19JP Dinnell?

  It does. I mean, one of our larger field training exercise clients, one of their upper executives, you know, the company I'm talking about, everyone that we've been interacting with since 2018 running these FTXs, all of those key leaders, they, they don't just know the principles. They actually live the principles. They apply them. They believe in them. And guess what? Every single one of those individuals has grown within the ranks, like multiple tiers of now high level executive leadership positions. And the individual I'm talking about, he's just been in the game since day one with us, helped us bring the program to them.

• 1:29:59JP Dinnell?

  He sent me a text and I always forward them to you and Leif and, and Jamie and Dave, just so we're all aware of like the impact that we're truly delivering. I know we know it and I always give it to my team and I, I like to, if I'm in person with the guys, be like, hey, just so you guys know, this is what you're a part of. And as we grow this, you're going to have more and more and more of this. Because if we do what we teach and we do it the right way, which we are, you all are going to have teams eventually running this training. And this is what you need to focus on is the impact that we deliver. Everything else,

• 1:30:32JP Dinnell?

  it's important, but it's the impact that we deliver. That's what you have to like strategically, that's what I want you guys thinking about. And he sent this text where one of his, his executives that works directly is his direct report said, "That training fed my soul. Thank you. I didn't realize it's what I needed."

• 1:30:53JP Dinnell?

  It's just, it's incredible to see that impact and

• 1:31:00JP Dinnell?

  I wrote this down. It's one of the things you're talking about is when you were running training. You said, literally, we could almost do whatever we wanted.

• 1:31:10JP Dinnell?

  So I wrote down wide boundaries, leadership capital, withdrawal, return on investment. So it reminded me of when we went back and you were running training and we literally could do whatever we wanted. And the reason why is because the training we produced delivered results. It, we had guys come back from deployment saying, the hard training you guys put us through, kept us alive.

• 1:31:39JP Dinnell?

  It kept us alive. And I remember when I was being an absolute jackass at training.

• 1:31:45JP Dinnell?

  I want to be very clear. I, I've said this multiple times. I always want, I know I'm in a unique position working at Echelon Front. I wasn't this phenomenal leader in the SEAL teams. I wasn't like Seth, or Leif, or you, or Dave. I was in some unique positions and there was times where I was a good leader, but I also know that I was a jackass and that I was,

• 1:32:10JP Dinnell?

  you know, that I was that, that guy that my leadership had to deal with. So

• 1:32:14Jocko Willink?

  There's no, there's no one on the team, there's no one at the Echelon Front team that doesn't have that caveat, bro. No one. Just FYI.

• 1:32:20JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, but

• 1:32:22Jocko Willink?

  I mean, we want to start pulling apart, you know, you want to go deep? How deep you want to go?

• 1:32:26JP Dinnell?

  I know, but

• 1:32:27Jocko Willink?

  There's no one, that's why we're here.

• 1:32:29JP Dinnell?

  Yes, and I know, but I also know that because I have that background perspective, I do at times appeal to a larger base than some of the other instructors because I can relate to all the different levels and I, and I get that. So I want to be, when I'm like talking through this stuff, I want to be, like, I don't think I was this phenomenal, like, perfect leader in the military. I was A good team guy, I think. I think I was a good team guy. I believed in the mission. And I remember when you pulled me aside because I was struggling with some personal stuff that was starting to affect me professionally. That's when you told me like, hey, your job is to be the best damn instructor that you can be so that we don't have to put our uniform on to go to another funeral.

• 1:33:12JP Dinnell?

  And I know I've shared that story before multiple times. It was when I realized that it just changed my perspective. And when we started delivering that impact, that's why we were able to do whatever with with training. And because the amount of leadership capital that you built within our community by delivering the absolute best training, it allowed us to make large withdrawals. But if you make a large withdrawal that has a high return,

• 1:33:47JP Dinnell?

  you're actually at a higher level when you come back. It's like basic investing. I'm gonna pull a hundred dollars out, but it's gonna make me a hundred and fifty dollars. Cool. Keep doing that. Every time you've ever made a withdrawal in your

• 1:34:03JP Dinnell?

  career, especially in tasking a bruiser and I traded, the return on that investment was ridiculous. And that's what we try to tell companies like, hey, if you're gonna make a withdrawal, there better be a large investment. There better be a large investment. And the more relationships you have within your team, the more trust, the more trust you have, the more influence, and you can actually go out and do those things. And that's what people see real time in the training.

• 1:34:30Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I remember you had a situation. There was a safety incident took place and the report came back. If we hadn't just gone through this training, this would have been a complete disaster. If we hadn't just gone through this FTX training, this is a let's say a a company that does dangerous work, you know, dangerous construction type work. They had a safety incident take place and they reported, if we hadn't been through this training, whatever it was, two weeks ago, this would have been an unmitigated disaster. We were able to get control of it, prioritize and execute, and decentralized command. We made things happen and got the problem solved much quicker than we would have had we not been through this training.

• 1:35:13JP Dinnell?

  So I've talked with the leadership about that. And I asked like, hey, how can I share this? What can I share? Because I know some of it's sensitive. So I'll, I'll, I'll share what I know we can share. There was actually a death on a job site. And it was, we had been running a week of FTX training. And it was on a Friday. It was a beautiful day. And I remember we came back from one of our runs and I was looking around and I could see people's posture changing as they were looking at their phones. And one of the guys comes up to me and he has tears in his eyes and he said, hey, one of our guys just got killed on a job site. And it brought me back to when, when Seth was like, hey,

• 1:35:54JP Dinnell?

  Mark just got killed. It brought me right back to them. And I remember sitting there going, wow. That's all I could think about is just like, I didn't think I was dealing with this stuff anymore. And so I said, all right, you know, you guys kind of let me know. I'll give you guys some time to kind of think about it. And everyone's kind of like checking and they're talking and there's a few people crying and they're upset. And so I make an announcement to the FTX team and, and to the, the client, uh, you know, and I just shared with them. I said, you know, hey,

• 1:36:27JP Dinnell?

  I told you, you guys deal with human life, just like we did in the SEAL teams. And you guys have a very dangerous job. But it's a very critical job as well. If you guys don't do what you do, people can suffer. Like people's lives and businesses can

• 1:36:42JP Dinnell?

  suffer bad. So it's necessary that you guys do your job, but it's very dangerous. And so we, we go through this whole talk and I, you know, I said, hey, I know one of you guys have to leave because it's actually your, your teammate. I said, you guys have hit all the training objectives. And so we can be done. And this would be a good day of training.

• 1:37:01JP Dinnell?

  Or we can do one more run. And we can do it to honor this gentleman that just got killed. Because I'm telling you right now, leadership is what's going to solve every problem within this organization. If we pulled the thread, there was a leadership failure somewhere that allowed this complacency to creep in and this individual just got killed. Because what this guy was doing, he had done thousands of times over his career.

• 1:37:29JP Dinnell?

  It was literally thousands of times. And so we finished the run, we finished the day strong. That was a Friday. We had another week with them that we're supposed to do at the end of that month. Two days later, we get an email from the leadership saying, hey, we'd like to talk to you guys about, you know, some stuff. So we, we get on a phone call with them. And they're like, hey, can we do another two to three weeks worth of training before the end of the year? We're like, I don't know if we can. We might, I think we might have a two week block open in December, but December in your region is miserable. And they're like, here's a deal. So they, the reason why is because when the executives showed up on this location where this individual had been killed,

• 1:38:13JP Dinnell?

  it was a situation they'd never seen before. Because there was no pointing of fingers. There's nobody blaming. It wasn't the union blaming corporate, corporate blaming. There's none of that. When they showed up, everything would have been taken care of. The executive leadership was being told what they needed to go do. Hey, we're already doing this. You guys need to go do this. Boom, boom, boom, boom. Everything had been taken care of and there was no blame. There was no arguing, none of that. And then the CEO and some of the other leaders sat down with the union president and some other leaders and was like, hey, how do we make it toward this never happens again? And a union president said, we go all in with the Echelon Front leadership training. That's the only thing that's going to keep this from happening again.

• 1:38:59JP Dinnell?

  And the CEO goes, okay. And the executives are like, all right, we'll see what we can do. And that's when they came back to us and said, hey, we need, we want another two to 300 leaders put through this training. And so we put 400 leaders through that training in 2018, 2019, we're supposed to do a bunch more. And we have continued to have a great working relationship with this, with this client, but it was a union president that was telling the executives, we need to go all in with this training because he saw firsthand. Well, the reason why everything was running so smooth at that fatality was the leaders had gone through our training earlier that week.

• 1:39:44JP Dinnell?

  That's that same week. And, you know, it was, you know, I've had a few members from that company go. It was a complete godsend that we had your guys' training that week because it was a real, it was a real hard thing for them to handle. And I mean, they've also explained to us like how their culture has changed. I mean, it's been a drastic, and you know, you know, some of the details of just change. And it's just, you know, when, when we talk about complacency and leadership solving people's problems, and we kind of get personal, and we explained to them like, hey, that problem is a leadership problem. That is a leadership problem, and you

• 1:40:27JP Dinnell?

  allow complacency to creep in. People get offended at first. They, they get offended, but then we kind of change the tone, like, let's pull the thread. If we pull the thread enough, it goes back to a leadership problem that allowed the complacency to creep in. Because if we go to war with that complacency, and we combat it, and we do what we're supposed to do, we mitigate all those things. That's what we talk about being default aggressive. That's what we tell people. Hey, default aggressive isn't a mindset for victory against another human being. Now, in combat, yes, but we're not talking about that. We're talking about being default aggressive to improve a relationship, work on your communication,

• 1:41:07JP Dinnell?

  being default aggressive to mitigate safety risks. And if you're not allowing that complacency creep in because of the leadership that you have, because the culture, culture is the ultimate form of decentralized command. And so if your team knows what they're supposed to be doing, they don't cut the corners. Therefore, we keep our people safe. And it enables, like you were talking about in that scenario, like, hey, I'm not having junior leaders step up. They see in the, in the scenarios that we run, there's a void of leadership. Guess what we should do? Oh, Johnny, step up. I don't have an arm bed. I'm not a leader. And I just look and I tilt my head and they're like, Roger that. And it's, it's amazing.

• 1:41:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's, it is, you know, all, all problems are leadership problems. And what does that mean? The beautiful thing about that is that means leadership is the solution.

• 1:41:56JP Dinnell?

  And that means that we can solve the problems.

• 1:41:58Jocko Willink?

  We can solve these problems.

• 1:41:59JP Dinnell?

  It's liberating.

• 1:42:00Jocko Willink?

  And that is a, a powerful, powerful thing. Hey, man.

• 1:42:08Jocko Willink?

  I mean, we work with so many different companies. I was gonna, I was about to, I was about to close it, but I was like, hey, that's one company. And we work with all these different companies.

• 1:42:15JP Dinnell?

  I know.

• 1:42:15Jocko Willink?

  Tech companies, financial companies, manufacturing companies, construction companies, energy companies. And just every different facet and every different type of group, you know, from the tech world to the financial world. And the lessons are learned and the, the culture is changed and leadership rises to the surface to be the solutions to problems that these companies have.

• 1:42:41JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, I have to show, I have to show love for Groundworks because you talk about a client that's in the game.

• 1:42:48Jocko Willink?

  For sure.

• 1:42:49JP Dinnell?

  I mean, Matt Malone, I call him Mr. Malone. He always gets pissed off at me. He's like, it's Matt. And I'm like, okay, I have a real, I can't just do that. I have a hard time. I can't, you know, ever since I was a kid, that's the way I was raised, but Matt at Groundworks, I mean, he saw the power of Extreme Ownership. He read the book and was like, hey, this is, this is what I've been looking for. Came to a muster, paid for some guys to go to the muster with them, came back, was like, hey, we want to engage with you guys. We did a, we did a little trial FTX with, with a bunch of their leaders. And when they saw that FTX, they're like, okay, we need this.

• 1:43:24JP Dinnell?

  I won't get into all the details of how they run their business and what they're doing, but I can tell you, they are extremely successful, growing, expanding, dominating the marketplace, like dominating. And one of the cool things that they do is every small, every company they acquire, their, their goal is acquiring small to medium companies in their industry. Within 90 days, they run an FTX.

• 1:43:48Jocko Willink?

  It's legit.

• 1:43:49JP Dinnell?

  And the reason why they do that is to show this new company that they acquired their commitment to them, to develop them as leaders, to give them hope, to give them like the tools to lead and be successful and He says, there's no better program out there to implement the lessons and the principles that we need, but also to tie in the culture.

• 1:44:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:10JP Dinnell?

  Because it's, it's like, hey, this is how we do things at Groundworks. You're now a part of our tribe. Yes, you're still this company, right? You're whatever that company is, you're still them, but you're also a part of our tribe. And it's, I mean, just to see like, the goosebumps, like to see companies that are that committed, to see an individual like Matt, that that's, that is that committed to their company's growth and development, it's impressive. I just shared with you one of the personal examples of that guy that pulled me aside recently was.

• 1:44:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:43JP Dinnell?

  I mean, just, it's incredible.

• 1:44:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's a, it's a huge impact. And that's a great example, like you said, of the, of a company that is just taking these, taking these leadership principles, been applying them, continuing to applying them, applying them at scale.

• 1:44:58JP Dinnell?

  Yes.

• 1:44:58Jocko Willink?

  Which is awesome. And continuing to see success after success after success. That's, that's another great example of the many companies that we work with that go out there, take these principles, implement them and dominate.

• 1:45:13JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, and it shows them, one thing that I've written down, I wanted to hit is the importance of like, like the diversity of people's, like different people's ideas and backgrounds. Um, that's one thing I was talking with a company, I'm like, the reason I feel, one of the reasons why the SEAL teams were so successful is because we have like true diversity of skillsets and thoughts in, in how we conduct business. Hey, I can have a platoon full of 18 Jacos and that's going to be an awesome platoon. But he doesn't have all the things that I need.

• 1:45:43Jocko Willink?

  Not as good as a platoon full of 18 different people.

• 1:45:46JP Dinnell?

  Yes.

• 1:45:46Jocko Willink?

  For not even close.

• 1:45:47JP Dinnell?

  Yes.

• 1:45:48Jocko Willink?

  And I only see what things one way, one perspective, and that's not what we want. I want to have 18 different perspectives.

• 1:45:54JP Dinnell?

  Yes, and that's what people see real time in the FTX program is as everyone's rotating through different positions, positions of leadership, we, we actually, we developed this workbook for them so that afterwards they can capture their, their takeaways. And you see the, the takeaways evolving as the day goes on because there's all these different ideas and thoughts and the diversity of a company that now they say like, oh, so and so, like her ideas are awesome, his ideas are awesome, let's get them to work together. And at the end of the day, when they start working together, when they start applying the principles. It sucks for my role players.

• 1:46:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, that's, that's what I was talking to earlier when we kicked this thing off. I was talking about a SEAL platoon. And I was like, oh, you got all these different types of people in the SEAL platoon. And you got some smart guys, you got some educated guys, you got some uneducated guys, you've got some short guys, some tall guys, some slow guys, some fast guys. You've got somebody that was born with a silver spoon in their mouth. You've got someone that was raised in the ghetto. You've got all these different people with all these different perspectives. And that makes that platoon strong. That's what it is. It's not like you said, 18 Jacos, cool, that's great. But that's not as powerful as 18 individuals that all bring a different perspective, a different mindset, a different viewpoint. And that's what makes a platoon strong is all the differences that people have.

• 1:47:16Jocko Willink?

  They, they, they, you get to see more. You get to see the problem. You get to see a problem from multiple different angles. With, you know, when we, when we go out in the field and do a reconnaissance of a target. We don't just look at the target from one side. We do a cloverleaf around the target. We, we back out, we go in from another angle. We back out, we go in from another angle. We go all the way around so we can see as many different angles of the problem so that we can figure out how to solve it. So if you have 18 Jacos, that's one viewpoint. If you have 18 individuals, you've got that cloverleaf. You get to see as much of that target as you can possibly see, and that's how you're going to solve the problems.

• 1:47:53JP Dinnell?

  I'm smiling because you're saying the cloverleaf. I just, I watched Cody do this with a group the other week. They're briefing their plan. And they're just kind of sitting there listening and you could tell like it wasn't the right plan. And so what him and Carlos do, instead of saying, hey, you should do this, they just ask questions. Hey, what if, like, so I say, you have your guys right here and you have your guys right here.

• 1:48:18JP Dinnell?

  And so they're split. So that would be split forces, right? So we want to make sure they know what we're talking about. And Carlos just goes, if somebody pops up in the middle, you have to shoot, like, well, would you be able to shoot them? And it's every single time, like the client who has zero tactical training goes,

• 1:48:36JP Dinnell?

  Oh, that's yeah, we shouldn't do that. We shouldn't split forces. We're like, yeah, that's a good idea. And Cody built this terrain map for the large client that we have that we have all the work with. He built a actual 3D terrain map of the playfields that we use. And they were going through some stuff and Cody just grabbed the OIC who was on one side of the table looking at it. And brings them around to the other side. It was like, hey, what do you see? And you're, this is nothing major, but just the changing of that guy's perception from over here. He saw it in a different way. He goes, yeah, we shouldn't probably go up that way. Cody's like, I like your plan.

• 1:49:13Jocko Willink?

  Hey, you've been talking about a bunch of our corporate clients, but also, what was it last year? Was that last year? We started the first FTX individual FTX?

• 1:49:21JP Dinnell?

  Well, this year, March.

• 1:49:22Jocko Willink?

  Okay. So if somebody wants to like, let's say I'm just Fred and I, this sounds awesome. And I got, I got a small company. I can't, I can't bring an Ashlam Front to teach my company because I only got 22 employees. But I got three people, my main, you know, subordinate, my two team leaders, I want to bring them. So we have a program for that too. And how's that work?

• 1:49:42JP Dinnell?

  Yeah. So we have the individual program, the individual FTX program to where an individual, like you just said, can sign up and come to the training. Or a guy like Denver Wetton, who's like, I think I want this, but I'm not sure. Like, let me go test it out. He came to the training, tested it out and immediately was like, I need two days worth of this training. And so we've had-

• 1:50:01Jocko Willink?

  When's the next one?

• 1:50:02JP Dinnell?

  The next one is in April. Um, I want to say April.

• 1:50:06Jocko Willink?

  So it's not, the dates aren't locked down yet?

• 1:50:07JP Dinnell?

  No, I'd have to pull up my calendar.

• 1:50:09Jocko Willink?

  But we'll, we'll go to ashlamfront.com, go to, go to-

• 1:50:13JP Dinnell?

  Events, muster, individual one. So FTX 004 is going to be in Dallas, Fort Worth. So we're going to be back in Dallas again.

• 1:50:21Jocko Willink?

  In April.

• 1:50:21JP Dinnell?

  In April.

• 1:50:22Jocko Willink?

  So it's kind of cool.

• 1:50:23JP Dinnell?

  Yes. It's, the weather's going to be perfect. And it's so it's the last week in April, whatever that Monday, Tuesday is, I want to say like 23rd, 24th, something like that. That we'll be having that one in April. And then we're looking, depending on how that one sells out, we have some, we already have corporate clients that are like putting locks in our calendar on 2022 for FTXs.

• 1:50:44Jocko Willink?

  I know.

• 1:50:45JP Dinnell?

  So FTX 005 and 006, we're not sure those dates and locations yet, but right now, and it's going to sell out every, the first three sold out. It's going to be in April. So an individual can sign up for it. It's two full days of training. So you're getting two full days of those field training exercises. Well, we'll do the check-in, meet and greet on Sunday, give out the pre-mission bags with all their gear. And then on Monday, we start the class, we do overview, we give the classes and then they're running missions all day. We have a team dinner and then like kind of open Q and A with you, Leif, myself. And then on Tuesday, full day running missions and then we'll do jujitsu afterwards as well.

• 1:51:27Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And awesome debrief at the end to kind of capture and make sure everyone gets it. Well, freaking right on. Awesome. I'm so glad you came to Ashla Front and you're taking this thing and running with it. It's just, it's amazing to see the impact on individuals, on companies, on businesses, on teams. It's just how freaking awesome and that we're able to take these lessons and pass them on. And people can put them to use to go out there and just, and just do what they're supposed to do in the world.

• 1:51:57JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:57Jocko Willink?

  It's awesome.

• 1:52:00JP Dinnell?

  Well, thank you for the opportunity once again.

• 1:52:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Echo Charles.

• 1:52:04Speaker 02

  Yes, sir.

• 1:52:05Jocko Willink?

  We're over here, you know, we're running FTXs and we're, we're doing jujitsu, we're lifting.

• 1:52:10Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:52:11Jocko Willink?

  You know, effing.

• 1:52:13Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:52:13Jocko Willink?

  Learning, leading, right? Seems like we might want to get all the help we could get in some of these departments. What, you know?

• 1:52:21Speaker 02

  It's true.

• 1:52:22Jocko Willink?

  What do we got for?

• 1:52:22Speaker 02

  Support.

• 1:52:23Jocko Willink?

  Heccomendations?

• 1:52:24Speaker 02

  Uh, well, well, we can talk about a lot of stuff, but you know, in the physical capability realm.

• 1:52:29Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:52:30Speaker 02

  Yeah. We do appreciate the support when we can get it.

• 1:52:35Jocko Willink?

  Wait, JP's here. Why don't we just talk about Sour Apple Sniper all day?

• 1:52:38Speaker 02

  Well, you know, we, we could, we could.

• 1:52:40Jocko Willink?

  JP, okay, let's rewind. You're at Trade App with me. How many energy drinks are you drinking a day? What do you think your, what do you think your worst, like your max energy drinks a day was?

• 1:52:54JP Dinnell?

  And we're talking like the big ones that had 300 milligrams per, oh, that was six to seven, eight. Oh, I know. It's not good. Like I, yeah.

• 1:53:04Jocko Willink?

  That's bad.

• 1:53:05JP Dinnell?

  No, it's real bad.

• 1:53:06Jocko Willink?

  It's a freaking disaster.

• 1:53:08JP Dinnell?

  It was. Absolutely. Yeah.

• 1:53:12Jocko Willink?

  God, alright, so.

• 1:53:13JP Dinnell?

  You know those memes where people are like, this is my body, like with all the check lights, like.

• 1:53:18Jocko Willink?

  Oh yeah, check lights all over the place.

• 1:53:20JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, that was.

• 1:53:21Jocko Willink?

  That was you.

• 1:53:21JP Dinnell?

  Me, I trade at, me on the outside doing sales at a financial company. It's been me for a long time, but not anymore than that. Like, you know, we're talking about the game changer.

• 1:53:32Jocko Willink?

  And you know, like, whatever, say whatever you want about me. I don't have, I could not make something like that and sell it to people. I couldn't.

• 1:53:43JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:44Jocko Willink?

  As far as I'm concerned, I might as well be a drug dealer. That, that, that is a drug dealer. That is, that is a person that is giving freaking crystal methamphetamine to people. And, and knowing that they're gonna get addicted to it, knowing that you're hurting their health, probably gonna kill them, and you don't care, because I'm making money. I could not do that from a moral standpoint as a human. Couldn't do it. Zero chance. And yet, I kinda felt like I gotta do something because otherwise people are out there, they're visiting the meth dealers. Right? Going to 7-Eleven, there's a meth dealer in there, in a, in a freaking, uh, uh, icebox.

• 1:54:22Jocko Willink?

  And there's a short-term benefit that you need, that I need sometimes, that Echo Charles needs sometimes. Hey, you need, look, it's a long day, whatever. It's, last night, I got, I don't know, I guess I got like three and a half hours of sleep. I actually woke up at 4:30. I was like, okay, if I'm not feeling it, I'm gonna go back to bed. I was like, I need more sleep. I tried to go back to bed. I couldn't go back to bed. I couldn't go back to sleep. So I just got up, worked out, and, but then I, then, then we're in here. I'm tired. Or I was tired when I showed up. Then I, so what do I need? I need something to help get over that fatigue.

• 1:55:04Jocko Willink?

  What do I need? Oh, I'm gonna have one of these things. Do I want to go down to the crack house? And buy some rocks? Cause that's gonna hype me up too, right? It's gonna hype me up, right?

• 1:55:14JP Dinnell?

  That's a terrifying thought.

• 1:55:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's gonna hype me up, but guess what? It's gonna kill me.

• 1:55:19JP Dinnell?

  Yes.

• 1:55:20Jocko Willink?

  So, we're not doing that. So, we made something that you can drink. That's literally good for you.

• 1:55:26JP Dinnell?

  Literally.

• 1:55:27Jocko Willink?

  No downside. Makes you feel hype. Is that a good word? Approved, disapproved. You're shaking your head. I sense it.

• 1:55:36JP Dinnell?

  I'm not there yet. We'll say that.

• 1:55:37Jocko Willink?

  What would be a better word? I was digging deep through the old vocab.

• 1:55:41JP Dinnell?

  I like, I like fired up. That's the traditional one you don't like though?

• 1:55:45Jocko Willink?

  I don't know, dude. I think I'd prefer hype over fired up.

• 1:55:51JP Dinnell?

  Hype it is, man. My man.

• 1:55:54Jocko Willink?

  JP, anything better than that?

• 1:55:56JP Dinnell?

  I mean, not everyone's gonna fully get this, but there's a few times I've cracked these open. I just tell myself activate.

• 1:56:01Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's true.

• 1:56:02JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, you wanna get activated. Brings me back to like Jaco saying JP activate on the radio. There you go.

• 1:56:08Jocko Willink?

  So, if you're, if you follow, yeah, if you follow me on Instagram, if you ever see on a post and if I have a hashtag activate,

• 1:56:16JP Dinnell?

  it's for that. It's just, hey, just.

• 1:56:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, so when JP, JP would be the bad guy, one of the bad guys. And the platoons would be like trying to work through a problem or whatever. And they'd just be screwing something up, screwing something up, screwing something up. And they needed to pay the man. I'd just come up on the radio and be like, JP, activate.

• 1:56:37Jocko Willink?

  He would come out of a spider hole or a false wall with a, with a mark forty-six of reconnaissance ammunition and just lay waste.

• 1:56:46JP Dinnell?

  I remember one of the times I was like waiting for it. I'm not gonna say his name because he's still in, but his nickname man bear pig. So. Which is very fitting for this human being.

• 1:56:57Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:57JP Dinnell?

  Terrifying. And he was like now the new LPO and is towards my end as I was getting out. And I was just like waiting. I was like, he could tell he's like, hey, he's like, wait, wait until Jaco gives the call. And I'm just like a freaking animal, like just like waiting because I was so hyped up. I mean, I, I loved what I did. I loved every single day of being in the SEAL teams. And it's the same thing now at Echelon Front, running these field train. I, I mean, people are like, man, I don't like, I don't get it. Like, how do you keep on? I'm like, because I love, I literally love what I'm doing. And it was like the same thing. He's like, wait, just wait, hold like, hold like, hold. And all of a sudden you're like JP activate and he's like, go.

• 1:57:38JP Dinnell?

  Just able to get after it, but.

• 1:57:39Jocko Willink?

  So if you need to activate.

• 1:57:41Speaker 02

  Activate, I like it.

• 1:57:42Jocko Willink?

  Boom. If you need to activate, freaking crack open one of these and you'll get frigging activated. Kick out that door, start laying a waste with a Mark 46.

• 1:57:51Speaker 02

  Yes. The right way.

• 1:57:52Jocko Willink?

  Belt fit.

• 1:57:53Speaker 02

  Nope, no price. You don't pay no price later.

• 1:57:55Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 1:57:56Speaker 02

  No, you just go.

• 1:57:57Jocko Willink?

  We're not doing the freaking Nazi thing, putting our guys on, uh, on meth.

• 1:58:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. They deal with the devil, you know?

• 1:58:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:03Speaker 02

  It's like, oh, what do you need? Oh, you need that? Oh, yeah, I get it. And then they collect that check afterwards. Right? You're in big trouble sometimes.

• 1:58:09Jocko Willink?

  Big trouble. That withdraw JP was talking about that withdraw, not what we're looking for.

• 1:58:14Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no. All good. So yes, Jaco, discipline, go. Or are we going with Jaco, go? Cause it's kind of interchangeable.

• 1:58:20Jocko Willink?

  Kind of interchangeable, yeah.

• 1:58:22Speaker 02

  That's the energy drink. That's the one that we want. That's the one we want to stick with. Sour apple, sour apple sniper. It's a good flavor.

• 1:58:28JP Dinnell?

  Dude, they're all good flavors. They're, they're all good flavors. And I can tell you personally, the FTX program is run and fueled by the discipline goes because we get them sent to every location ahead of time. Jack Daniels just, he's in the game. He takes care of that. I used to do it. He's like, I got it. I'm like, oh, he's like JP, I got. We have them at every FTX for our team. For all the prep ahead of days, ahead of time, all the stuff they're doing.

• 1:58:56JP Dinnell?

  And then also for the client as well. And we have to put it out. We're like, hey, you, these are healthy, but you don't need to drink one after every single run because they taste so good. We had one guy, I was like watching and I was like, hey, he's like, what's up? I'm like, come here real quick.

• 1:59:10Jocko Willink?

  Twitching.

• 1:59:11JP Dinnell?

  Well, no, because you literally could drink six of these and it'd be equal to two of those larger drinks from the devil. And, and so I pull him aside. I'm like, hey, how many? He's like, I've had one after every run. I'm like,

• 1:59:25JP Dinnell?

  You're drinking water for the rest of the day. I'm like, you're good. It's still like not an unhealthy level. I said, but man, like you're just, you don't need to be doing that. He's like, they just taste so good. I'm like, now I want, I was like, I'll let you in on a little secret. I know that in the future, they're talking about hopefully having caffeine free versions. He's like, okay, dude, he was so excited. Guy was in the game.

• 1:59:50Jocko Willink?

  We'll get there.

• 1:59:50Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. And it makes sense because the, you know how when you drink a different drink or whatever, you drink one, you're like, cool. You drink two and you're like, okay, two's kind of good, whether it be the flavor, the heaviness of it or whatever. Doesn't have that and has electrolytes too. So I can dig it. He's drinking one after every run.

• 2:00:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, just feeling it.

• 2:00:09Speaker 02

  It's awesome. Anyway, that's one. Yes. I suggest mango. That's my suggestion. I was talking to a gentleman at the live.

• 2:00:18Jocko Willink?

  Biased.

• 2:00:18Speaker 02

  A little bit, little bit biased, but hey, maybe it's your bias too.

• 2:00:21Jocko Willink?

  JP said, I said, they're all good.

• 2:00:23Speaker 02

  They are all good.

• 2:00:24Jocko Willink?

  Throw out the bias.

• 2:00:25Speaker 02

  Okay. So one guy, he was talking, he was like, hey, I'm gonna, um, I'm gonna try either the orange or the mango. Yeah. Karen was with me. He witnessed this whole thing. And I said, okay, you're asking me this. Okay. All right. I said, I think if you want to go a little bit more exotic, a little bit more risk, try mango.

• 2:00:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:42Speaker 02

  If you want to go to the, the, the tried and true, you go orange.

• 2:00:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:47Speaker 02

  I think, uh, sour apple sniper is kind of like on, on the same level as mango as far as that goes.

• 2:00:51Jocko Willink?

  I think, no, I don't think so.

• 2:00:52Speaker 02

  You think it's more tried and true?

• 2:00:54Jocko Willink?

  No, I think it's tried and true. The, the, the thing with the sour apple is it's the sours. It's a lot more, it's a lot more sweet than sour. I mean, it freaking tastes good.

• 2:01:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:01:04Jocko Willink?

  It's sweet. It's freaking sweet. So orange is sweet. Sour apple is definitely sweet. Mango has some exotic to it. It's still sweet.

• 2:01:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, sweet. Uh, yeah. So a lot of people, they like, they love, they love, love it. They think it's like way better. But then some people are just straight up, not down. Actually, one person.

• 2:01:25Jocko Willink?

  For the mango?

• 2:01:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:01:26Jocko Willink?

  You mean me?

• 2:01:26Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:01:27Jocko Willink?

  Yes, you're right. I don't like mango.

• 2:01:28JP Dinnell?

  That Dax Savage will throw you off because you don't know. And then you taste you're like, oh.

• 2:01:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:33JP Dinnell?

  Why is this so good? Like you're trying to figure it out and people that love Dr.

• 2:01:37Jocko Willink?

  You know Dakota Meyer starting a distribution company?

• 2:01:40JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, as he should.

• 2:01:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, he's he's just decided he's just gonna become a distributor of the drinks. So he started just rolling into places and now he's just going on the warpath.

• 2:01:50JP Dinnell?

  So I've like not at that level. I think so. He he was talking to Amanda about it at the Vegas muster. And she's like, that's that's amazing. Um, you know, that's how I got introduced to the new jujitsu gym I'm at is through Dedecco. It's Formiga, right? And that is gym double five and it was setting him up. So I have, I don't even know how many gyms I have under me as like wholesalers. Cause I can set up them as same thing. And then I found out, uh, um, the Dakota was doing that as well.

• 2:02:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, he's doing it at like freaking grocery stores and stuff.

• 2:02:22JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, dude, he's so awesome.

• 2:02:24Jocko Willink?

  Freaking sad.

• 2:02:26JP Dinnell?

  So yes, yes, stay in the game with these things.

• 2:02:29Speaker 02

  All good, of course, very exciting stuff. But yes, stay in the game with all this stuff.

• 2:02:33JP Dinnell?

  This is all I've had today, by the way. I didn't eat breakfast or lunch and I had one of these at the house.

• 2:02:39Jocko Willink?

  Same.

• 2:02:39JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, it's good. Two of the pills with it. Just, you know, gotta make sure you put that fully in your bottle for the flight.

• 2:02:45Speaker 02

  That's true. Um, also, don't forget about your joints. You know, you talk about complacency creeping in.

• 2:02:51JP Dinnell?

  I can't not.

• 2:02:52Speaker 02

  But yeah, but sometimes that that'll come on slowly where you don't notice. Then one day you're looking at me like, man, I gotta feel like I gotta warm up just to live my normal life. But you don't want that.

• 2:03:01Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 2:03:01Speaker 02

  So you take the joint warfare, the super krill oil. Just keep, keep everything in line. That's good. You'd be happy you did. Also vitamin D three and Cold War is for you immune immunity.

• 2:03:11Jocko Willink?

  Greens, by the way.

• 2:03:13JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, the greens. You were saying some good stuff about the greens. They're really good.

• 2:03:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, but you you use a particular case.

• 2:03:25JP Dinnell?

  You did.

• 2:03:27Speaker 02

  Oh, I thought you were gonna go into it.

• 2:03:28JP Dinnell?

  No, I just, I thought that was like pre podcast talk, but I guess it's a little blast. Let's say you have, uh, some cocktails or some wine with your significant other.

• 2:03:39Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 2:03:40JP Dinnell?

  So Amanda and I were having some, have some drinks and, uh, you know, the next day I'm like, this is exactly why I don't drink. I don't drink. I don't drink for this reason. Went and grabbed two scoops of the greens, half water, half apple juice.

• 2:03:56Speaker 02

  Tasted phenomenal. Felt amazing afterwards.

• 2:04:00Jocko Willink?

  Greens, greens, greens is kind of a, the greens is kind of a miracle.

• 2:04:03Speaker 02

  You can also do it right before bed. Like, so if you have some drinks, you know, and maybe you shouldn't be drinking and, but you do and one or two scoops of the drink, of the greens, water right before bed.

• 2:04:15Jocko Willink?

  So we got hangover prevention. We didn't even know it.

• 2:04:18Speaker 02

  Official.

• 2:04:19Jocko Willink?

  We didn't even know it, but we have it.

• 2:04:21Speaker 02

  If we're talking about the, um, you know, how you feel things real time, like when I have the greens, I feel really good. Really good. Study sample size of one, you know, that's where it starts.

• 2:04:34Jocko Willink?

  Hundred percent.

• 2:04:35Speaker 02

  For the, for the proof. It's true.

• 2:04:36Jocko Willink?

  Factually.

• 2:04:37Speaker 02

  Also milk, don't forget about milk. You want some additional protein. Yeah, yeah.

• 2:04:41Jocko Willink?

  Let's face it.

• 2:04:42Speaker 02

  It's hard to forget about more, you're right, you're right. But yes, that's a, that's a dessert.

• 2:04:46Jocko Willink?

  There's nothing, there's nothing, there's nothing that you just sit there, like you'll be in some random spot and just think, man, I really want a milk right now.

• 2:04:54Speaker 02

  That's it.

• 2:04:55Jocko Willink?

  That's the thing. There's no other, even steak, even steak, I won't have a, I won't have a craving for a steak as much as I will have a random, I really want a milk right now.

• 2:05:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:05:08Jocko Willink?

  That's how tasty.

• 2:05:10Speaker 02

  Have you, have you mixed?

• 2:05:11Jocko Willink?

  Soothing.

• 2:05:12Speaker 02

  Have you mixed the greens with the milk?

• 2:05:13Jocko Willink?

  No, I have not done that.

• 2:05:14Speaker 02

  That's bold, that's bold. Think about this, vanilla gorilla with the greens.

• 2:05:18Jocko Willink?

  Hmm. Getting crazy over here.

• 2:05:20Speaker 02

  It's really good.

• 2:05:21Jocko Willink?

  Drinks.

• 2:05:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, cause if, you know, vanilla protein powder with fruit, right? If you, if you want to make a smoothie, you're going to put some frozen fruit in there. Well, the greens have that fruit flavor, the pineapple and the coconut, so it's, it's really good. Interesting, because yeah, that's kind of how the nature of milk can be, is you make some other stuff in there. A lot of, hey, look, I stick with the chocolate. So if I put anything in the chocolate, I'll put a little bit of a frozen banana and that's sort of it.

• 2:05:48Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 2:05:48Speaker 02

  Oh yeah, that's the one right there. But yeah, especially with the vanilla, you can mix all kinds of stuff in there. Just enhance it.

• 2:05:55Jocko Willink?

  You know Tulsi's done a lot of amazing things in her life?

• 2:05:58Speaker 02

  Yes, sir.

• 2:05:58Jocko Willink?

  And the only thing that you seem to care about is that she told you to put half ripe bananas in your freaking milk, bro. That girl's a damn veteran. She's a congresswoman. She's a surfer. She's a fighter and you're over here talking about rotten bananas going into milk and that's like the deal.

• 2:06:15Speaker 02

  Well, let's face it, Tulsi's surfing abilities and you know, her service and stuff play less of a role in my day to day life.

• 2:06:23Jocko Willink?

  Check. Okay. Point taken.

• 2:06:25Speaker 02

  But I'm just saying that frozen banana, uh, milk, let's face it, let's face it.

• 2:06:30Jocko Willink?

  Kind of a game changer in your household. She didn't do much for you as a, as a representative of Hawaii. She didn't do much of you as a combat vet going overseas. That didn't help you out, but day to day. She's all up in that milk. The milk train.

• 2:06:44Speaker 02

  She gives good advice.

• 2:06:46Jocko Willink?

  Hey, you get the drinks, you get the drinks at Wawa on the east coast. We're going into a bunch of other stores right now. I'll keep you posted on all of that. Uh, you can get the, you can get everything at Vitamin Shoppe. Go hook up the Vitamin Shoppe and look, you can get all of it at jockofuel.com and if you subscribe, there's no shipping payment, which is a big deal. Cause look, let's face it, there's other companies out there. You might have heard of some of these companies and they're get you on this little thing where you're getting stuff shipped to your house for free and that can be hard to compete with. How do you compete with it? Do a little subscription activity. Help us put down the big boys.

• 2:07:21JP Dinnell?

  But if there is an issue with your order, that if you order from jockofuel.com, originmaine.com, then you reach back out to Origin and Jocko Fuel and they fix it. The, the other ways that you can get it, like if there's an issue with your order, there's an issue with your order. That's it. But Jocko Fuel and Origin, they're going to resolve that problem. They're going to take care of it and they're going to make it right.

• 2:07:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's true. Also, you mentioned Origin, originusa.com. It is Origin Maine too, right?

• 2:07:51Jocko Willink?

  It is.

• 2:07:51Speaker 02

  It's all the, all the same gig. Um, this is American made stuff, denim, boots, belts, wallets, whatever else Pete thinks up. There's a heavy hoodie. I hear great things. I don't have one, but you know.

• 2:08:04Jocko Willink?

  That's gotta be a bummer.

• 2:08:05Speaker 02

  I, I, I understand.

• 2:08:06Jocko Willink?

  You're over there with rotten, rotten bananas. We got heavy hoodies.

• 2:08:10Speaker 02

  I just wanted to know, how did you go to immersion camp and not leave with a heavy hoodie? Yeah, huh. Yeah, I kind of jammed that up, that opportunity.

• 2:08:17Jocko Willink?

  Real slippy over there.

• 2:08:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, I got a cool giga. I got a good giga, so.

• 2:08:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:08:23Speaker 02

  So did everybody that attended American Camp. I'm one of them.

• 2:08:27Jocko Willink?

  Origin, Origin USA.

• 2:08:28Speaker 02

  Yep, all made in America, everything, from the materials themselves.

• 2:08:32Jocko Willink?

  Yep. Oh, by the way, there's a bunch of people that have been trying to get stuff from overseas and there's a bunch of ships sitting off the coast of California and New York and they can't get their stuff in here. Their supply chain is all jacked up. Guess what? We got an American supply chain. An American supply chain. Did I just say that? The whole thing? Every single part of that garment that you're wearing, be it jeans, be it boots, be it a freaking rift gi, doesn't matter. That whole supply chain is right here in America. We're not waiting in the port. We're not, we're not paying somebody to have imposed slave labor to build you a freaking pair of jeans and then call them American. No.

• 2:09:15Jocko Willink?

  That's not American. How can a pair of American jeans not be made in America? Answer me, riddle me that, Echo Charles.

• 2:09:24Speaker 02

  It's, it's a hard riddle.

• 2:09:25Jocko Willink?

  You can't, you can't solve it because it's wrong. It's a lie.

• 2:09:30Jocko Willink?

  We're not doing that.

• 2:09:31Speaker 02

  Nope. OriginUSA.com. Boom. Also, Jaco has a store. It's called Jaco Store. I know, nifty name. I get it. But some good stuff on there. Discriminates freedom, shirts, hats, hoodies.

• 2:09:42Jocko Willink?

  Jiu Jitsu is life.

• 2:09:43Speaker 02

  Jiu Jitsu is life.

• 2:09:44Jocko Willink?

  Life, yeah. You got a little, so there's a jiu jitsu kind of.

• 2:09:49Speaker 02

  Section emerging.

• 2:09:50Jocko Willink?

  Look at you, man. Look at you with the section.

• 2:09:52Speaker 02

  I don't, I don't, um, condone not doing jiu jitsu, choosing not to. I'm not going to condone it.

• 2:10:00Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 2:10:01Speaker 02

  But some people don't. Some people do. The people who do, now they got the little section of representation on the path, on the jiu jitsu path is being, is emerging right now.

• 2:10:13Jocko Willink?

  You know how many people have told me that they've started jiu jitsu because of the podcast? How many you think?

• 2:10:19Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 2:10:20Jocko Willink?

  I don't know how many. You know how many people have come up to me and said, hey, I started jiu jitsu because of the podcast and I really regret it? Zero. That number is zero. If you are listening to the podcast, if you're a living human being, go start training jujitsu. Just go start training jujitsu. Start right now.

• 2:10:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, it is.

• 2:10:38Jocko Willink?

  Then you can shop, then you can shop this jujitsu sex.

• 2:10:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, and also think about all the people that said, oh yeah, I started jujitsu. I wish I would have started sooner.

• 2:10:47Jocko Willink?

  A hundred percent.

• 2:10:48Speaker 02

  I'm one of those people, by the way.

• 2:10:49Jocko Willink?

  I'm, I am too.

• 2:10:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:10:50Jocko Willink?

  I wish I was born on the mats of justice.

• 2:10:55Speaker 02

  That would have been great.

• 2:10:57Jocko Willink?

  How about that shirt locker?

• 2:10:59Speaker 02

  Shirt locker, yeah.

• 2:11:00Jocko Willink?

  Okay, you know, you're always excited about your little design. You say they're, you give these, you try and explain to me. You say they're more creative or they're more layers. You just say weird stuff about them. You don't know how to describe them. Your limited vocabulary trips you up right there, jams you up, as you like to say. So I was at Jaco Live last night and I see a guy's walking up to me and he's got a shirt that looks freaking legit. It's got like a metallic tank writing on the top and it says discipline. And then there's an actual tank with the barrel pointed at the, at you as you look at the shirt. And as he gets closer, it's a comic book cover and I'm on it, some cartoon version of me riding a tank.

• 2:11:43Jocko Willink?

  And it's a t-shirt. So that's the first one that I've said, yeah, well, you know, kind of dope. Not the first one that's been. It's the most, it's the most differentiated from your standard Jaco store shirts. It's the most differentiated one.

• 2:12:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was kind of a curve ball stylistically. It was good though. I think it landed very well.

• 2:12:06Jocko Willink?

  Oh, it did.

• 2:12:07Speaker 02

  It says Defcore to the core.

• 2:12:08Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 2:12:11JP Dinnell?

  So I learned something new recently. Somebody was talking about the shirt locker subscription. And I, I know a good amount of people that are like, man, that'd be awesome. Like I just have too many shirts. I got, and I'm like, I get it. Trust me. I get it. Well, recently I heard a common friend of ours, I'm not, I don't know. Put his name on blast on the podcast, but.

• 2:12:31Speaker 02

  He's like, I have way too many shirts. I don't need it. He's like, but I do a shirt locker just to support Echo. And what he does is he gets all these shirts. He wears them for a little bit and then he just gives them out as gifts to people. And people were like, super stoked about it. And so if you have, if you're thinking, if you're like, hey, I have too many shirts. I don't need the shirt locker. Get a shirt locker.

• 2:12:52Jocko Willink?

  Just get your re-gift on.

• 2:12:53Speaker 02

  And this guy loves it. He goes, he gets so much fulfillment out of just being able to give out the shirts to different people or someone's like, hey, I like that shirt. He'd be like, cool. And he gives it to them.

• 2:13:03Jocko Willink?

  There you go. There you go. See the shirt locker. It's gonna pay you twice. It's gonna pay you. You're gonna get a cool T-shirt. It's gonna pay you when you give it away to your friend because they liked it.

• 2:13:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. I don't, I mean, it depends on your lifestyle. I don't feel like I have too many T-shirts because of the shirt locker. Because all of them that come in are in the rotation. Granted, I'm a little bit biased because I probably won't make one that I wouldn't wear.

• 2:13:27Jocko Willink?

  I would hope not.

• 2:13:28Speaker 02

  I don't think so.

• 2:13:28Jocko Willink?

  That'd be kinda whack.

• 2:13:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:13:31JP Dinnell?

  Yeah. That doesn't make sense to do that.

• 2:13:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, but you know how like you just, you know how some people they'll anticipate, oh yeah, or they get a lot of recommendations for something and you'd be like, oh, it's a good idea. I don't know if I would necessarily wear that, but it's like, hey, but hey, the proof is in the pudding. Everybody's saying this and it's actually technically.

• 2:13:46Jocko Willink?

  I got it. I see, I see it now. It is now. You're just over there at the whim of the people, kinda chasing the glory. Like, oh, everyone else likes it, so I'm just gonna do it. That's where we're at. I just figured it out.

• 2:13:55Speaker 02

  I call it, I call it listening to my people. That's what I call it. Should I not listen to them?

• 2:13:59Jocko Willink?

  Look at you.

• 2:14:00Speaker 02

  Maybe, maybe I have all the good ideas. I have all the good ideas. I don't wanna listen to nobody.

• 2:14:04Jocko Willink?

  You're a politician, son. You're a politician.

• 2:14:07JP Dinnell?

  So if there's a demand for V-necks, would you go, would you go V-neck route then?

• 2:14:13Speaker 02

  Uh, in the words of both you guys, by the way, uh, if there was a demand signal for V-necks, then yeah, I might consider it. Sure. Anyway Shirt Locker is on jocko store.com. Hey, if that's for you, we have some developments in that section, by the way. So if you're a current member, we're gonna have some upgrades and some updates for you. Any moment now. jocko store.com

• 2:14:39Jocko Willink?

  Subscribe to this podcast wherever you subscribe to podcasts. Check out the Unraveling Podcast with Daryl Cooper DC, Grounded Podcast, Warrior Kid Podcast. I got Jaco Live last night. Kids, children, put me on the spot. I have one question for you, Mr. Willink. Yeah, what's up, son? How can I help you? When is the next Warrior Kid Podcast coming out? Because it's been 14 months.

• 2:15:06Jocko Willink?

  Next question from a kid. Hi, Uncle Jake, I'd like to ask you a question. Oh, what's your question, young man? How can I help you? I was wondering when the next Warrior Kid Podcast is coming out?

• 2:15:19Speaker 02

  You sure those weren't my kids?

• 2:15:21Jocko Willink?

  I'm sorry, man.

• 2:15:24Jocko Willink?

  Also, jocko underground.com. If you want to hear some alternative podcasts, some some alternative information.

• 2:15:32Speaker 02

  Life advice, by the way.

• 2:15:33Jocko Willink?

  Life advice, Q and A. Hitting a lot of Q and A in there. You can go to jocko underground.com. Now, here's what we've been talking about.

• 2:15:42Jocko Willink?

  Why do we do that? Well, because we don't control the platforms. We don't know what the platforms are going to do. The platform's big tech. What do we? Okay, well, whatever.

• 2:15:51Jocko Willink?

  What could possibly I be doing that would make someone say, hey, you know what? We need to pull this guy, pull the reins in on this Jaco guy. I don't know. But I got freaking straight up shadow banned. Legit shadow banned.

• 2:16:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was gonna text you because on one of your, well, the video that we did with Travis Mills and stuff, and you posted, so I'm like, oh, yeah, you know, it's fun to see people's reaction to that kind of stuff. And man, it was getting no traction on yours. I was like, brother, this doesn't. And then you had that other one that you were kind of posting like stuff, right? Like the video of your screen.

• 2:16:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the video that someone sent me of my screen not seeing me.

• 2:16:26Speaker 02

  Right. You got straight up shadow banned.

• 2:16:30Jocko Willink?

  Shadow banned.

• 2:16:31Speaker 02

  For what?

• 2:16:32Jocko Willink?

  I actually don't know. I actually am not 100% sure. I have some suspicions. I have some things that I think it could be.

• 2:16:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I've spoken out about some situations that are unfolding.

• 2:16:47Speaker 02

  On Instagram?

• 2:16:49Jocko Willink?

  Uh, on podcasts, on my podcast, on other podcasts, and.

• 2:16:56Speaker 02

  That's weird though, right?

• 2:16:57Jocko Willink?

  Where someone.

• 2:16:58JP Dinnell?

  It makes me so mad. I was in Colorado and I told you this right before the muster. I was there working with a client. Uh, was out and about that this uh, family, there's like little kids, anyway, started talking to him. I'm like, hey, you should check out my boss. Um, he's got these kids for, uh, he's got these books for kids called The Warrior Kid. And then mom was like, I'm a teacher. This would be phenomenal. And so the, the dad was like, well, what's his name? My Jocko Willink. He's like, okay, which it's funny. Anytime I say your name and somebody doesn't know you, it bothers me.

• 2:17:30JP Dinnell?

  How do you, what are you, what are you talking about? You don't know. And then I have to be like, oh, okay, not yet. Everyone doesn't know him yet, but they will. And so I was like, hey, let me see your phone. I was like, you have Instagram? I'm like, open it up. He's like, all right. Cause I don't want to do like, hey, look him up later. They'll forget. So I, now this is my default is like, hey, open up your phone. They're like, okay, open up your Instagram. Okay. And I'm like, oh, let me see it real quick. I just take it and I started typing in. I'm like, what the heck? He's like, is that him? I'm like, no, that's a meme page about him. He goes, he has a meme page about him. I'm like, oh yeah. So he started going through, he's like, he has a quote page too. I'm like, oh yeah. I had to type your name fully for you to show up. And then I clicked on it. And then I immediately was like, and I was like, hey, you're following him now. Cause I followed you.

• 2:18:12JP Dinnell?

  Gave him back to him. The guy's like, why would, why is this? I'm like, like he's being shadow banned.

• 2:18:17Jocko Willink?

  It's crazy.

• 2:18:17JP Dinnell?

  Starts like looking through all your stuff. And he's like, why would he be shadow banned? I'm like, because he speaks the truth.

• 2:18:23Jocko Willink?

  It's so freaking crazy.

• 2:18:24JP Dinnell?

  It's crazy that that's, that's a dangerous thing is to speak the truth these days.

• 2:18:29Jocko Willink?

  It is very disturbing. It is very, very disturbing.

• 2:18:33Speaker 02

  And to that degree where they can, where someone, and I'm totally just speculating, but they'll hear you say something that they didn't like, like somewhere else and then be like, let me go to his Instagram and shadow ban him.

• 2:18:45Jocko Willink?

  Really makes me start to think about all the level of.

• 2:18:51Jocko Willink?

  Inner connectivity between some of these elements out there in its Cause it is very strange. Now, look, could it be like, oh, I was, you know, someone mentioned me or something, there's some fault and, and they got an algorithm that runs and it's like, oh yeah, this guy boom. And he got, and then they went, I was like, yeah, we shouldn't have, we shouldn't have done that now. Cause apparently I think I might be on shadow banned right now.

• 2:19:12Speaker 02

  I think so.

• 2:19:13Jocko Willink?

  I think.

• 2:19:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:19:14Jocko Willink?

  I'm not sure.

• 2:19:15Speaker 02

  I went on, on Sarah's phone and looked for you and you popped right up.

• 2:19:18Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:19:19Speaker 02

  But I think she's following.

• 2:19:20JP Dinnell?

  But she follows him.

• 2:19:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:19:22JP Dinnell?

  That's.

• 2:19:24Jocko Willink?

  Well, hey, because of all this, but what JP?

• 2:19:27JP Dinnell?

  I was gonna say, it's just even more confirmation that you know, you're doing the right thing. We're doing the right thing. Dogs don't bark at parked cars.

• 2:19:36Jocko Willink?

  True.

• 2:19:36JP Dinnell?

  You know, so.

• 2:19:38Jocko Willink?

  Because of this, we, and we figured this out, was it a year ago, we started jocko underground.com because I knew we needed contingency plan in case things went sideways. We could get taken off of every platform. That could happen. And so if you want to support us, go to jocko underground.com. It's $8.18 a month. That allows us to have this platform that if things go sideways, we will be standing by in the underground to do what we gotta do. If you can't afford it, it's all good. We still want you on the team. Email assistance at jocko underground.com and for like a reward or an appreciation, we do another little podcast and talk about some alternative subjects. And you know what?

• 2:20:17Jocko Willink?

  Well, you know what I'll do is I'll, I'll, on that I will do a, a, one about why I think I got shadow banned. I'll give all the details because I, I'm pretty confident I have, I, I, I'm pretty sure I know why.

• 2:20:30JP Dinnell?

  Interesting.

• 2:20:32Speaker 02

  Throw this out here. I don't need to sleep tonight. We can do it tonight if you want.

• 2:20:38Jocko Willink?

  YouTube channel. Subscribe to that.

• 2:20:42JP Dinnell?

  Official.

• 2:20:42Jocko Willink?

  Yep. It's official or whatever. Can see what JP looks like. You can see his Jiu Jitsu is life t-shirt. You can see my t-shirt. I only, only wear the same t-shirt.

• 2:20:50Speaker 02

  Same one.

• 2:20:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's kind of what I do.

• 2:20:54Jocko Willink?

  Origin USA has a cool YouTube channel as well. We have psychological warfare. I made a little album. You can listen to it. If you have a moment of weakness, you can overcome that moment of weakness. Flipside canvas. Speaking of Dakota Meyer, not only does he have a distribution company.

• 2:21:10Jocko Willink?

  He also has flip side canvas. You can hang cool stuff on your wall. Dakota Meyer, freaking one of my heroes. Got a bunch of books. Final spin JP, JP Dinnell.

• 2:21:21JP Dinnell?

  Come on JP, what up?

• 2:21:22Jocko Willink?

  So JP Dinnell, you read, you got on the plane and you read Final Spin. How'd that work out for you, Hobie?

• 2:21:32Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:21:33JP Dinnell?

  This is what I love about you. People don't understand this.

• 2:21:36Jocko Willink?

  A little behind the scenes JP and I, we can both, we are both,

• 2:21:43Jocko Willink?

  we can both, we can both get emotional at certain things. And it's funny to watch each other get emotional and we make fun of each other for getting emotional, laugh at each other. Literally, I was at the last muster. I'm, I'm sitting backstage watching JP get choked up and I'm laughing.

• 2:22:02JP Dinnell?

  And I'm just preparing.

• 2:22:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And yeah, he's just preparing. So I'm like, okay. So anyways, as soon as he, he, he just walked in today, he said, yeah, I read the book on the plane. And I saw the look on his face. I was like, oh, it hit him. It hit him. Cause it's a rough book to read emotionally. It's an emotional roller coaster.

• 2:22:18JP Dinnell?

  It's awesome. So we got the copy of the, of Final Spin at the muster. So we're leaving Vegas. Amanda, Amanda had the copy. I ordered 10, like when they first came out. Um, and I knew, so I had some coming. And so I, I, I stole it from her. Like I took a picture, put on Instagram. She's like, give me my book back. I'm like, let me read it for a little bit. She's like, okay. So I started reading. I was like, oh my gosh, this is legit. She's like, takes the book back. She, she finished, she's reading on the flight. And then I'm gone for FTXs, come back, the books are there. I grab it and I read it in two or three days. I just, I could not put it down. And I didn't want to read it at night because I knew like, when I would read it at night, I was, I was not going to sleep.

• 2:23:03JP Dinnell?

  Cause I was just like, no, one more check, one more, one more. And, um, today, you know, flying out here, I'm finishing up my packing and I grab it. And it irritated me because I knew I was going to finish it before I took off.

• 2:23:17JP Dinnell?

  But I needed to finish the book, but I was like, I'm going to finish it. I'm just carrying another book for a week on the road again. And I have my other book that I'm going to be reading, um, or finishing off. But yeah, it was awesome. Like I was just like sitting there and I'm.

• 2:23:31JP Dinnell?

  Very front of the plane, everyone's coming on board and I have tears rolling down my face as I'm like reading the book. I was like, you gotta be kidding me. Now, if anybody knows me well, it's not a surprise. Like, you know, I'm an emotional person. You know, one of my real close friends is one of my black or is one of my black belts still Matt Waltman and he he just knows. He's like, bro, he's like, I know when you're gonna get emotional. If he listens to a podcast I'm on, he's like, yep, and then I'll get emotional. Just, if you know me well, you know that I'm an emotional person and I used to bother me. I don't care anymore because I'm like, well, that's the way God designed me. Yeah, it's the way God designed me. It's part of who I am. But yeah, Final Spin, that was awesome. Sitting on the plane, tears rolling down my face. I'm like, you gotta be kidding me. Because I think,

• 2:24:16JP Dinnell?

  and I'd like to talk to more people about it, but I truly think every human that reads that book will be able to relate to all of the characters. I don't care what your background is.

• 2:24:27Jocko Willink?

  A hundred percent.

• 2:24:28JP Dinnell?

  I don't care what your background is. You are gonna find a relationship to every one of the characters, everyone. Like the store manager, I wanted to beat that guy up because I've had some of those bosses in the past, right? Artie, man, that kid, you know, um,

• 2:24:50JP Dinnell?

  just, just everything, you know, and just what the main character did for his brother.

• 2:24:57JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, it's just a phenomenal book. I I I truly, I would put a large amount of money down and say, if you read the book, you'll be able to relate to every one of those characters. And I'm not gonna, I can't give it away. You gotta read it because it's ridiculous. But I will say like, just that style, that the style that you wrote, I I'm looking forward to more books in that. And if not, then you're the biggest jerk ever. Put that out there and then not have more books coming down the pipeline.

• 2:25:29Jocko Willink?

  Check. Right on. Appreciate it. That book is called Final Spin. It's an emotional roller coaster. You you don't even expect it really at some points and all of a sudden you're like, wait, wait, why am I getting choked up right now?

• 2:25:40JP Dinnell?

  Yeah. So I wanted to say this quote earlier and I didn't find the right time, but. I think it ties into this book, like the principle of the book. You said this at one of the last FTXs, FTX 002 that we had in San Diego. And I wrote it down and I know I, I shared at the muster part of my talk, but you said, when you transition from loving winning to loving your team winning more than you winning yourself, you transition into a true leader.

• 2:26:09JP Dinnell?

  And that's sacrifice. If, if,

• 2:26:13JP Dinnell?

  when you're willing to put the team above yourself, the mission above yourself, that's when you become a true leader. And you, you asked this question and we ask it now at all the FTXs. What do you think makes a good team guy? And everybody, all the answers are great. They're just not the right answer. It's when you put the team first and the mission first. That's what makes you a good team guy. And that's not just for the SEAL teams. Company XYZ, when you and your employees put the team first and the mission first, that's what makes you a good leader. And you don't have to have a title to be a leader. We've said this, your title doesn't make you a leader. Your ability to influence those around you to do the right thing,

• 2:26:56JP Dinnell?

  to believe in themselves, to believe in the mission, that's what makes you a leader. And I've, I love this quote. I've written it in all my notebooks that I have just as a reminder, as well as discipline is rooted in the truth that we tell ourselves that you told me. And I just, it reminds me, I think that's also why I got emotional reading that book is because

• 2:27:18JP Dinnell?

  he was willing to do what he did for his brother.

• 2:27:24JP Dinnell?

  And that's what good leaders do. Like they, they are willing to put the team and the mission above themselves at all costs. Now, what he did in the book is obviously part of the book to, but the base of that is he, it wasn't about him. It was not about him. And when we look at the good companies that we work with, the leaders that care more about the team than themselves. I remember I called you. I sat and had dinner with Denver before we ran the FTX. And I, he was sitting there and he was emotional and he was talking about how much he loves and cares about his team. And it was real, you know, and we've worked with companies where you knew they were kind of full of it. They're trying to put on the game.

• 2:28:09JP Dinnell?

  I mean, he, he pulled out like index card that he had notes on for our talk and just the, the level of impact that the training had on him and how much he cared about his team. I remember I, I text you and, and Leif afterwards and I called you because just the burden of that. And you're like, hey, bro. You're going to deliver the training that he needs. And that's all. I was like, check Roger that. And

• 2:28:32JP Dinnell?

  it just, it's cool. Just when you see leaders truly care about their team. And they put the mission first, what they're able to accomplish.

• 2:28:46Jocko Willink?

  That's it, man.

• 2:28:49Jocko Willink?

  Final spin, a lot of those themes in there. One of my friends texted me and said,

• 2:28:55Jocko Willink?

  this is a great piece of American literature.

• 2:29:01Jocko Willink?

  And I said, thanks, man. Appreciate it. It's a bold statement, right? Bold statement.

• 2:29:06Jocko Willink?

  Final spin, Leadership Strategy and Tactics,

• 2:29:10Jocko Willink?

  Field Manual,

• 2:29:12Jocko Willink?

  Decode the Discipline, Decode the Evaluation, the Protocol, Discipline equals Freedom Field Manual, Way of the Warrior Kid, one, two, three, and four. Best books ever, apparently. That's what a lot of people are thinking. Adults, children, across the board. Mikey and the Dragons, come on. Come on.

• 2:29:33Jocko Willink?

  About Face by Hackworth, Extreme Ownership and the Dichotomy of Leadership that I wrote with my brother Leif Babin. We also have, what we'll be talking about a bunch today. If you, if you are interested in, in the FTX or any of the consultancy that we do, go to eslamfront.com. You can also find out where we're doing the next muster, which is Dallas, Texas. March 24th and 25th. We also have an online training program, Extreme Ownership Academy. We are on there all the time. We got courses that you can take. We got live interaction that you can do. You can come ask us questions. There's so much benefit. It's a leadership gym. You don't get good at leadership by reading one book. It doesn't happen. Just like you don't get good at jujitsu by going to one class. You've got to make it part of your life. Go to extremeownership.com to make leadership part of your life. And if you want to help service

• 2:30:17Jocko Willink?

  members act and retire their families, Gold Star families, check out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee. She's got a charity organization. She is really helping out veterans, just giving them treatments. You've had those treatments.

• 2:30:32JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 2:30:33Jocko Willink?

  Hyperbaric chamber. Game changer.

• 2:30:35JP Dinnell?

  It was an absolute game changer. My body was in a medical state that the doctors literally were like, we don't know what's going on.

• 2:30:42Jocko Willink?

  I'll tell you what's going on. You're drinking nine Monsters a day for three years.

• 2:30:46JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, no more like 10 years straight. But it was, I was having, well, I was having kidney and adrenal gland failure. And we just, like, when you're going to doctors and they're like, hey, we don't know this. This is what we know is going on, but we don't know what to do. We don't know how to stop. We don't know what's causing it. And then COVID hit and I hit up Mama Lee because she was like, hey, you need to get in these treatments for your TBIs. And I'm like, okay, yeah, because you know, I had real bad tinnitus and, you know, just issues with just remembering stuff and headaches and stuff like that and problem sleeping. And she's just been trying to get me into the treatment. Well, I couldn't because I couldn't commit to the treatments that I had to do because of how busy we were. Well, COVID hit and I was able to do it. And I did all the treatments.

• 2:31:30JP Dinnell?

  All those issues were gone. Like, they're gone and they haven't come back. And I know of other team guys that had masses growing in their, in their head, pituitary gland, like cancerous types of masses that they didn't really know what was going on. Go and get the treatments and they're gone. Like, just, it's incredible what those treatments do. And actually, to the point that one of our clients at Echelon Front, that's a part of Dave's Eldat program that we did in FTX before, one of the guys was like, hey, what's a good charity that we can donate to? And I told him America's Mighty Warriors, this is what they're doing. Well, one of these team members was so motivated because I told him what happened to me. Other members like Cowie, who's on our team, like, he went and got those treatments. He said it's been a game changer, night and day.

• 2:32:15JP Dinnell?

  And every, everybody I've listened to, it's not just for team guys. We're talking just any service member that has problems, we're getting them in there. Well, this member of the client that we, that we work with ran up the chain of command and now their company is doing a thing to where they, they, they produce trailers, like heavy haul trailers for the trucking industry. They designed a America's Mighty Warrior trailer where it has logo on the trailer, on the back, everything. And they're donating, I'm not gonna say the amount, but for every trailer, they're donating a large amount to the foundation and their goal is they want to be able to pay

• 2:32:54JP Dinnell?

  for, I want to say it was like five or seven treatments through, it's incredible. And she's only able to do this through companies and individuals that donate. It's, it's, it's insane.

• 2:33:07Jocko Willink?

  If you ever wonder what happens with money that you donate to a charity and if it's effective, it, this is 100%, this is what's happening. Medical treatments that are, that are game changers for veterans. So that is America, Americas Mighty Warriors.org. This is Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee. That's where you can go to, to help out with that. If you want any more of my tedious tirades, or you need any more of Echo's perplexed ponderings, or you want some more of JP's hyped up hypothesis. And you can find us on the interwebs, on Twitter, on the Gram, Facebook,

• 2:33:51Jocko Willink?

  JP is at JP Dinnell, Echo is at Echo Charles, I am at Jocko Willink. Echo, any closing thoughts?

• 2:33:58JP Dinnell?

  Good to see JP in person again. Always good to be here.

• 2:34:01Jocko Willink?

  JP, anything to close it out?

• 2:34:04JP Dinnell?

  No, I said what I wanted to say.

• 2:34:06Jocko Willink?

  Right on. All right. Well, speaking of military personnel, to all the military personnel out there around the world.

• 2:34:16Jocko Willink?

  Staring evil in the eyes in order to keep us safe. Thank you for doing what you do. And to our police and law enforcement firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, border patrol, secret service, and all first responders. Thank you for protecting us from evil here at home. And everyone else out there, remember, there's always more to learn. There's always new information to absorb. You can always hone your skills. You can always improve your technique. You can always increase your knowledge and you can always, always get better.

• 2:34:57Jocko Willink?

  Well, actually, almost always because if you close your mind and your ego says that you already know it at all, well, then guess what? You won't learn, you won't improve, and ultimately you won't get better and you won't win. So, put your ego in check. Go out there. Keep learning. Keep getting better. And yes, keep getting after it. And until next time, this is JP and Echo and Jaco. Out.