296: When You're There, You're There. When You're Home, You're Home. W/Sara Wilkinson and Jason McCarthy

0:00:00 - Opening 0:10:21 - Sara Wilkinson 2:48:10 - Final thoughts 3:13:28 - How to stay on THE PATH. 3:40:01 - Closing Gratitude. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 296 with me Jocko Willink.

• 0:07Jocko Willink?

  The Chief of Naval Operations takes pleasure in presenting the Silver Star Medal to Special Warfare Operator First Class Chad M. Wilkinson, United States Navy. For service as set forth in the following citation.

• 0:26Jocko Willink?

  For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity in action against the enemy while serving as a mission support site team leader while assigned to a joint task force in support of operations enduring freedom on 24 April 2011.

• 0:44Jocko Willink?

  Petty Officer Wilkinson displayed superior guidance during a daytime assault targeting a Taliban commander while under significant enemy fire.

• 0:56Jocko Willink?

  Upon arriving into the objective area Petty Officer Wilkinson and his assault element came under a hail of enemy fire.

• 1:06Jocko Willink?

  He and his teammates led his assault to set containment on the objective area.

• 1:12Jocko Willink?

  After receiving friendly wounded in action from direct enemy fires and grenades within 20 meters of the target compound Petty Officer Wilkinson boldly exposed himself to the enemy and suppressed the incoming fire that allowed his element to move to safety and enabled a combat medic to move to their positions to treat a head wound of one of his teammates.

• 1:37Jocko Willink?

  He directed two additional assaults on the target compound and coordinated with higher headquarters for three rotary wing close air support missions after evacuating all non combatants from adjacent buildings.

• 1:52Jocko Willink?

  Petty Officer Wilkinson's actions eliminated the enemy combatants, enabled the evacuation of the wounded casualties, and allowed for the safe extraction of the assault force.

• 2:06Jocko Willink?

  By his bold leadership courageous actions and total dedication to duty Petty Officer Wilkinson reflected great credit upon himself and upheld the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service.

• 2:23Jocko Willink?

  For the President Jonathan W. Greenert, Admiral, United States Navy, Chief of Naval Operations.

• 2:38Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 2:42Jocko Willink?

  There you have the award citation of a hero from one of our recent wars.

• 2:52Jocko Willink?

  Afghanistan.

• 2:55Jocko Willink?

  And war is in some ways timeless. Doesn't change.

• 3:05Jocko Willink?

  There are heroes, there are sacrifices.

• 3:09Jocko Willink?

  And there's fear and pain and loss.

• 3:16Jocko Willink?

  And war also evolves over time and there's new weapon, new weapons, new technology, new tactics, there's lessons that are learned, there's solutions that are created.

• 3:34Jocko Willink?

  With the advent of poison gas, World War I came the advent of the gas mask.

• 3:41Jocko Willink?

  From the creation of machine guns came the creation of the tank.

• 3:48Jocko Willink?

  War is responsible for the creation or the advancement

• 3:53Jocko Willink?

  of radios and radar and atomic weapons and energy and jet engines and electric computers and

• 4:01Jocko Willink?

  war creates problems.

• 4:06Jocko Willink?

  And then creates solutions to those problems.

• 4:12Jocko Willink?

  Or at least it's supposed to.

• 4:18Jocko Willink?

  There've been great advances in medicine from war.

• 4:25Jocko Willink?

  The Civil War in America brought about the significant use of anesthesia.

• 4:33Jocko Willink?

  In World War I, men were now being gravely wounded by these newly developed machine guns and they were losing massive quantities of blood. And so doctors started regularly using blood transfusions for the first time.

• 4:49Jocko Willink?

  World War II saw the expanded use of antibiotics to fight off infections.

• 4:59Jocko Willink?

  World War II is also where they started using metal plates to repair broken bones and fractures from these explosions, from these new weapons. And the Korean War helped advance the idea of life flights.

• 5:14Jocko Willink?

  And using helicopters to get wounded soldiers the care that they needed as quickly as possible.

• 5:24Jocko Willink?

  The Vietnam War,

• 5:28Jocko Willink?

  we started using napalm regularly.

• 5:32Jocko Willink?

  And that brought about advances in burn care.

• 5:37Jocko Willink?

  And they started using antiseptic and antibiotic infused dressings to reduce infection. So,

• 5:49Jocko Willink?

  so war creates new forms of physical trauma.

• 5:55Jocko Willink?

  And then creates ways to help ease that trauma.

• 6:02Jocko Willink?

  And then there's unseen trauma.

• 6:06Jocko Willink?

  The concussive blasts, the traumatic stress, every war has its own form.

• 6:19Jocko Willink?

  In World War I, it was shell shock. And the horror of going over the top.

• 6:28Jocko Willink?

  World War II, the dreadfulness of close killing.

• 6:33Jocko Willink?

  Vietnam, the confusion over who's good and who's bad.

• 6:41Jocko Willink?

  In our current, modern wars,

• 6:45Jocko Willink?

  there's something else to contend with for our professional warriors.

• 6:53Jocko Willink?

  And that is the idea of an unending war.

• 6:59Jocko Willink?

  Because World War I, as heinous and awful as it was, was also finite.

• 7:08Jocko Willink?

  World War II was similar. I mean, absolute horror, yes. But a horror that ended in four years.

• 7:20Jocko Willink?

  Korean War lasted three years. Korean War is also where we started to see this idea of tours. Where soldiers would go over and do a tour.

• 7:32Jocko Willink?

  And then go home.

• 7:36Jocko Willink?

  And that was it.

• 7:39Jocko Willink?

  And the same thing in Vietnam. We all kind of know that story. Service members were required to do their hitch in Nam.

• 7:48Jocko Willink?

  One year.

• 7:52Jocko Willink?

  Count the days.

• 7:57Jocko Willink?

  And in all those cases, for a majority of soldiers,

• 8:02Jocko Willink?

  war was a finite thing.

• 8:08Jocko Willink?

  Yes, brutal, yes, horrific, yes, sickening. But had an end point.

• 8:18Jocko Willink?

  But many of this generation, our current generation,

• 8:24Jocko Willink?

  there's been no end point in sight.

• 8:29Jocko Willink?

  It's been a constant.

• 8:35Jocko Willink?

  Exposure to violence,

• 8:38Jocko Willink?

  concussive explosions, stress, deployment after deployment after deployment after deployment.

• 8:45Jocko Willink?

  And the training is elevated too. And that's repetitive, over and over and over again. Explosive breaching of doors, firing rockets over and over again, improvised demolition shots, and then back on deployment again.

• 9:08Jocko Willink?

  And that can become a never-ending cycle of

• 9:17Jocko Willink?

  trauma.

• 9:22Jocko Willink?

  And that's taken its toll

• 9:26Jocko Willink?

  on the mental health of some of our nation's finest warriors.

• 9:35Jocko Willink?

  Men like Chad Wilkinson.

• 9:41Jocko Willink?

  Who received that Silver Star.

• 9:46Jocko Willink?

  And who finally met his end, not on the battlefield by the hands of the enemy.

• 9:55Jocko Willink?

  But who sadly

• 9:58Jocko Willink?

  took his own life.

• 10:02Jocko Willink?

  With suicide.

• 10:12Jocko Willink?

  And we have to learn from that.

• 10:17Jocko Willink?

  And here today to talk to us about Chad and what he went through is his wife, Sarah Wilkinson. And joining her is Jason McCarthy, former special forces soldier, founder of GoRuck and a friend of Sarah's.

• 10:36Jocko Willink?

  And together, they have been trying to share the message of mental health, remove the stigmas, raise awareness. And encourage people to reach out. If they need help.

• 10:49Jocko Willink?

  And encourage us all to help each other.

• 10:55Jocko Willink?

  With that, Sarah, Jason, thank you for joining us.

• 11:00Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 11:01Speaker 02

  Good to see you guys again.

• 11:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, Jason came on before your own podcast 208. Talking about your experiences in the special forces in Florida, tennis champion.

• 11:14Speaker 02

  Almost champion. My mom was the athlete in the group.

• 11:19Jocko Willink?

  And Sarah, thank you so much for coming out. Very, very awesome to meet you. And, and I just want to, you know, get, get right into your story and the story of you and Chad. And let's, let's start at the beginning. Where are you from? Where'd you grow up? How did it all start?

• 11:35Speaker 01

  I'm a military kid, born, born and bred. My dad was Marine. I'm the youngest of two. I have an older sister. My mom and dad met pretty young and got married. My dad joined the military, became a Marine and, set off their path to move around every couple of years.

• 11:53Jocko Willink?

  Was he from a military family?

• 11:55Speaker 01

  No.

• 11:56Jocko Willink?

  He just randomly joined the Marine Corps?

• 11:58Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, it was kind of like right where he just missed the draft, but yet still felt the need to serve, I guess. He, he, they, they come from a small town in Ohio where everyone kind of just stays in that same town. So I think he wanted to find something bigger, maybe more, more challenging.

• 12:17Jocko Willink?

  I can relate.

• 12:18Speaker 01

  He wanted to serve his country. So, yeah, he's a Marine. I was a military kid, moved around all the time. Uh, my dad was an officer, so that means we moved every two to three years. We spent most of the time on the East Coast. We lived once overseas in Okinawa.

• 12:36Speaker 01

  And, yeah, I, I mean, I've, I went to fifteen schools before I graduated. Fifteen.

• 12:42Jocko Willink?

  So, do you become super adaptable when you go to fifteen schools? I guess you could either just come super adaptable or just super in a shell and not talk to anybody.

• 12:51Speaker 01

  I, I really think you could go either way. You're either out there or you're, or you're rigid. Uh, I consider myself more of like a chameleon because of that. So I can blend in in a room or I can stand out what needs to happen. So, growing up, moving all the time, I mean, I went to a different school, fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth grade. Different school each year for those years.

• 13:16Speaker 01

  So, yeah.

• 13:17Jocko Willink?

  And then, and so then what about Chad? When did you meet Chad?

• 13:20Speaker 01

  First day of high school.

• 13:21Jocko Willink?

  And where was this?

• 13:22Speaker 01

  Uh, Quantico, Virginia. So, so my dad, Marine, right? Quantico's a Marine Corps base and his dad was Navy. His dad was a former SEAL. Uh, his uncle was also a SEAL. So he always wanted to be a SEAL from the time he was like twelve. But his dad had switched rates and then was kind of on the helicopter duty with the president. And so that's what brought him to Quantico. Cause otherwise I don't think we would have met. He would have never been there. Yeah, and we went to a really, really small school. It's a DOD high school. It doesn't exist anymore. So, a high school that's on base, that's just for the military kids.

• 14:04Jocko Willink?

  Are kids well behaved on the military school, on the military base school?

• 14:08Speaker 01

  Well, when I went, yes, because, you know, we're talking early 90s, but also on base, not in Quantico when I moved to Lejeune, this was the case, but a lot of times you would have a plaque in front of your house. So my house said, there was a plaque that said Colonel Trelisse out in front of our house. So you couldn't really do too much because not only, you know, could they report to your dad, they knew where you lived.

• 14:30Jocko Willink?

  So you're in a controlled environment?

• 14:32Speaker 01

  Pretty much, yeah.

• 14:33Jocko Willink?

  What kind of music were you listening to?

• 14:36Speaker 01

  Like grunge, you know, poppy type of stuff.

• 14:40Jocko Willink?

  What year is this?

• 14:41Speaker 01

  Well, when I met him, it was 91.

• 14:43Jocko Willink?

  So you're a freshman in high school in 91?

• 14:46Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 14:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, so it was kind of peak grunge?

• 14:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:49Jocko Willink?

  You were just getting your Nirvana and Pearl Jam?

• 14:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, he loved Pearl Jam, yeah, yeah. I still listen to it and just smile.

• 14:58Jocko Willink?

  So you guys meet and what, is it love at first sight? Is there?

• 15:02Speaker 01

  For me, oh, yeah.

• 15:05Speaker 01

  I mean, I don't know about him. Yeah, he, we, so going to a military school right off the bat, the first day, there starts to be buzz about who the new kids are. Who's this kid and this kid? The school was so, so small and they were talking about the Wilkinson brothers. The girls were like, have you seen the Wilkinson brothers? And I was like, what's the deal? But I smile because I just remember this so clearly, sitting in the bleachers on the first day, traditional like PE coach, just like intense call and roll. And this kid was sitting in front of me, I saw the back of his head and they called Chad Wilkinson and he turned his head to the side and he said, "Here." And I was like, oh, well, I'm done. I like him. And that was it.

• 15:48Jocko Willink?

  How did you connect then?

• 15:50Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, a small school, we kind of, you, you just, and being military kids, I think it was pretty natural for all of us to just be friends. There really wasn't like a cool group and a not cool group.

• 16:03Speaker 01

  Everybody, you were kind of forced to be friends with everybody because the school is so small.

• 16:07Jocko Willink?

  How small? How many people per grade?

• 16:10Speaker 01

  His graduating class was twenty four, I think.

• 16:12Jocko Willink?

  Oh, that is really small.

• 16:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And so.

• 16:17Jocko Willink?

  Dang, that's like one classroom.

• 16:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. We actually, the school was middle school and high school together. It was just in a different hall. So high school took up like one hall and a half. And the middle school took up like another hall and a half. And we didn't cross paths with the middle schoolers, but we were all in the same building.

• 16:33Jocko Willink?

  Now, were you guys in the same grade? Was he a freshman? You were a freshman?

• 16:37Speaker 01

  No, he was a year older, sophomore. He was a sophomore. I was freshman. Yeah.

• 16:41Jocko Willink?

  And so then, like what? Did he like say what's up sister? I mean, what did he do? How do you roll?

• 16:48Speaker 01

  Well, he was pretty cool. I mean, I say there wasn't a cool group, but he was, I think he was pretty cool in high school and he was super athletic. And I mean, for anybody who's listening, he's really good looking. So, you know, he had that going for him. We were just friends the first year or two.

• 17:07Jocko Willink?

  What sports did he play?

• 17:08Speaker 01

  Soccer primarily. I think he was on the golf team one year. And I think he was, he was the kicker for the football team one year because they just knew he could kick it, you know? So he'd run out there, kick and then come off. But yeah, for two years, we were more or less just friends. I mean, in that period of time, he did ask me to go to homecoming. And I was super pumped about it.

• 17:35Jocko Willink?

  So, homecoming is what? What like?

• 17:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:40Jocko Willink?

  The thing is, I went to a really small school too. I think I had eighty people in my graduating. I don't really remember the home. I know my kids, because I have, I have kids too. And my daughters went to some kind of homecoming, but what's the deal with homecoming?

• 17:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, good question.

• 17:52Jocko Willink?

  I know that people came to my house, they were dressed up, the boys were wearing ties and like this tuxedo type things.

• 17:56Speaker 01

  It's basically a reason to get dressed up and have a party. And you know, back then it was a big deal because it's a small school and you have a huge pep rally on Friday and there's.

• 18:04Jocko Willink?

  Pep rally?

• 18:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. And we were pumped. I mean, I, my kids dread pep rallies now. They're like, that's lame. I'm not going. And I'm like, why not? It's awesome. And that's what we did. And there was a football game. And then after the football game, you had, you had a dance and you get dressed up. And you got the like corsage and the flower and the whole thing. Yeah.

• 18:24Jocko Willink?

  It's a different time. You know, I was, I was looking at a boot camp picture of myself the other day. And the picture was taken in nineteen ninety, right? So I posted, I was like, I posted on, on my social media page, right? Hey, you know, here's me, boot camp. And I thought, so that's nineteen ninety. That's thirty one years ago. That means when I was in boot camp, if I would have looked at a picture that was thirty one years old, it would have been from nineteen sixty.

• 18:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. Crazy.

• 18:59Jocko Willink?

  And then I have, sometimes on the podcast, I'll have guys on that were in either World War Two, Korea, Vietnam, but recently had a bunch of Vietnam guys on and they just, like, they're talking about pep rallies, like, these kind of things. It was just a different time. I think you caught the end of it. You caught the tail end of it.

• 19:15Speaker 01

  I think I did. I think I found like the sweet spot of high school before all that just blew up and diminished. I don't know.

• 19:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Okay, so you get, I started to sidetrack. I kind of needed to know about homecomings. Cause I have, my two daughters went to home, the homecoming thing. They got picked up by some dudes at the house. The guys were wearing ties and whatnot.

• 19:39Jocko Willink?

  I tracked it, don't worry, we're good.

• 19:44Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so you get asked a homecoming by Chad?

• 19:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, and it was just the, the dance, uh, and then later. Well, so he asked me after he got in a food fight in the cafeteria.

• 19:57Jocko Willink?

  Wait, you got in a food fight?

• 19:58Speaker 01

  No, he got in a food fight.

• 19:59Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 19:59Speaker 01

  It was great. And, uh, he came up, he had food on his shirt and stuff, and then he's like, hey, as he would say, you want to go to homecoming with me? And I tried to act not really excited, but I was like, mm, all right. Yes.

• 20:13Jocko Willink?

  Score.

• 20:14Speaker 01

  So, yeah, and we just went homecoming and then that was that. We didn't date or anything. And then fast forward to the following spring.

• 20:22Jocko Willink?

  One more thing about homecoming and dances in high school, was there particular like songs that were repetitive? Cause when I went to high school. Every single dance that I went through, it started in middle school, which was, I guess it was seventh, so seventh, eighth, ninth, tenth, eleventh and twelfth grade. Every single dance that I went to, that's what we had dances, I don't know what they're called now, but every single dance we went to. Every single one, so there's probably four or five a year, you know, six, so thirty times. The song that would play at the end of the night was, um, was Stairway to Heaven, Led Zeppelin.

• 20:59Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 21:00Jocko Willink?

  Is that a normal tradition? Is that a worldwide tradition?

• 21:03Speaker 01

  I think it's just a really good march out song. They're like, yeah, beat it. Lights are coming up. Mosey out the door.

• 21:11Jocko Willink?

  Right on, right on. So you, you go to this dance and I cut you off. So you go to homecoming?

• 21:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, we just went to the dance and, and that was it and nothing really like became of it. But then fast forward a couple of months later, towards the end of the year, he would go by me in the locker, you know, I'd be sitting in my locker and he'd walk by and he'd just, hey. The whole, hey. And I just, I kinda just did the whole girl flip out thing, like, oh my God, he said hey to me. And then he needed help with a history paper, apparently.

• 21:40Jocko Willink?

  A likely story.

• 21:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so I was like, okay, and then he asked me out, uh, to dinner. Went to dinner and we started dating. Pretty much, so that was.

• 21:49Jocko Willink?

  Where'd you go to dinner?

• 21:50Speaker 01

  We went to this Mexican restaurant, I don't think it even exists anymore, I don't even know the name of it, in Acquah Harbor. Little shout out.

• 21:56Jocko Willink?

  I don't know if I actually asked a girl to dinner until I was in my twenties.

• 22:03Jocko Willink?

  Well, he had class.

• 22:04Speaker 01

  I, well, I don't even know if I should share all this, but we actually also went to a movie. And we bought tickets to some stupid movie because we couldn't get in a rate of our movie. And then we snuck into the movie Sliver. Do you guys remember that movie?

• 22:18Jocko Willink?

  Horror movie?

• 22:19Speaker 01

  It's like sexy smut movie. And I'm like on this date and I was like, oh.

• 22:24Jocko Willink?

  Is that Sharon Stone?

• 22:26Speaker 01

  I, oh, I think so. I actually don't remember who was in it. I mean, this was a long, long time ago, but I just remember being like. Completely red, thankfully in a dark movie theater embarrassed. So yeah, that's what we did. We had dinner and snuck into rated R movie. Crazy, crazy kids.

• 22:42Jocko Willink?

  Kids were getting crazy.

• 22:44Speaker 01

  I know.

• 22:44Jocko Willink?

  And so what year was that? Was this was his senior year or?

• 22:47Speaker 01

  Uh, I was, it was the end of my sophomore year, his junior year.

• 22:52Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 22:53Speaker 01

  And so this was nineteen ninety-three when we really started dating.

• 22:56Jocko Willink?

  So now you're legit dating.

• 22:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:59Jocko Willink?

  Through the summer?

• 23:01Speaker 01

  Well, so then I moved.

• 23:02Jocko Willink?

  Coming in the fall?

• 23:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, then it was for us. I don't know if it changes, but it was like October. Um, I have a really great picture from that day. I should pass it to you just cause it's good. But, um, no, we, my dad got stationed in Lejeune, so I had to leave after my sophomore year.

• 23:20Jocko Willink?

  Oh.

• 23:20Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah. And that was the only time I was ever really pissed, honestly. Every move I'd be like, okay, you know, we didn't get family vacations. We moved. That's what happened. And then you're on a new adventure. And this was the only time I was mad. And so.

• 23:34Jocko Willink?

  What were you into for, were you doing sports as well?

• 23:36Speaker 01

  I was, I was swimming.

• 23:38Jocko Willink?

  A swimmer?

• 23:38Speaker 01

  I was a swimmer.

• 23:39Jocko Willink?

  Cool.

• 23:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I was that person that's like, you wake up at five, you swim, you go to school, you swim. You swim a lot.

• 23:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Okay. So now you have to go to Camp Lejeune?

• 23:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I managed to work a deal and I stayed at my best friend's house, Steph Cuddy. So I could hang out with her, but really so I could hang out with Chad. Let's be honest.

• 24:02Jocko Willink?

  And watch R R radio movies.

• 24:05Speaker 01

  And yeah, I just hung out that summer. I was a lifeguard at the pool on base through high school as a lifeguard. And I pulled butts at the shooting range.

• 24:12Jocko Willink?

  Dang.

• 24:13Speaker 01

  You know, like when you roll them up and we, all the high school kids, we'd just sit there like in this little dugout with ear pro on and you'd see the bullet go and you pull the target, slap the sticker on it, throw it back up. That's how we spent our weekends.

• 24:27Jocko Willink?

  Minimum wage?

• 24:28Speaker 01

  Oh yeah. I was barely making anything.

• 24:30Jocko Willink?

  Well, I mean, I was actually in the Navy and I did that. For each other. That's what we did. We didn't have, you know, people to come down and do it for us. I guess that's a Marine Corps officer thing.

• 24:41Speaker 01

  Well, our friend's dad pretty much ran the range. So I think he was like, I'm going to make these kids do something. And so we could hang out with our friends all day on the weekend. It makes me sound like such a nerd now that I'm saying this. I didn't do anything like super crazy in high school, but uh, we could hang out with our friends and get paid a little bit of money.

• 24:58Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so that's where you spend the summer and this whole time you're hanging out with Chad. So you guys are uh tight, getting tight at this point.

• 25:04Speaker 01

  Or a thing.

• 25:04Jocko Willink?

  But you're gonna bail.

• 25:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:06Jocko Willink?

  The clock is ticking.

• 25:08Speaker 01

  And yep, so I moved to Lejeune, we continue dating, uh I'm a junior, he's a senior. And he would drive down on the weekends, which was kind of a big deal because you know, he was fairly newly licensed, you know? And his mom and dad would let him drive.

• 25:24Jocko Willink?

  The minivan or what was he driving?

• 25:26Speaker 01

  No, he had an old Oldsmobile, I think it might have belonged to his grandpa. And like the front seat like was busted, so it like sat crooked. It was a hoopty, it was great though. And he would drive that down on the weekends and see me and then drive back. Not every weekend, but as much as he could.

• 25:44Jocko Willink?

  Stay the night?

• 25:45Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 25:46Jocko Willink?

  Parents were cool?

• 25:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, this was like a thing because my parent, my mom said to me recently, like in the last year, we, we had some conversations just about this Chad and I in our youth and she said, I don't know what it was, I just, we just always knew that the relationship with you and Chad was just something different. And he stayed, I mean, he stayed in a separate room, he was in my room, but yeah.

• 26:10Jocko Willink?

  Well, at least as far as the parents know.

• 26:13Speaker 01

  I mean, you know.

• 26:17Jocko Willink?

  He, he was getting tactical, I'm sure at some point.

• 26:21Speaker 01

  I am declaring nothing.

• 26:25Jocko Willink?

  Cool, and so, so, so then how long does this long distance relationship work?

• 26:30Speaker 01

  So, we, and so we date and then when I, so he graduates and now I'm a senior. So I, I'm a senior, he graduates high school, his mom and dad moved to Florida, to Orlando now.

• 26:43Jocko Willink?

  When he's in high school, is he talking about joining the Navy? Is he talking about going in the teams?

• 26:47Speaker 01

  He always kind of, I think he just always knew that's what he was going to do. It wasn't that he talked about it in excess. So he has two brothers, he's the oldest, two brothers and then a sister. And um, his house was just full of, you know, every classic SEAL movie, you know? Spec op movie, you know, he had posters on his wall, uh which I think I still have, that you probably can't even find anywhere anymore, but I think it was just something he always knew that's what he was gonna do. I don't ever remember him talking about anything else, like, oh, I might go to. Business school or something. No.

• 27:27Jocko Willink?

  It was, it was so obvious to him and you that it was not even really a big subject. It was like, yeah, well, what else am I gonna do? That type of thing?

• 27:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I mean, even then, I don't think at my age, I was even thinking about, you know, our life together. Like, oh, I'm gonna marry him. I doodled his name a lot on all my notebooks because that's what you do in the nineties with your grunge t-shirt and your boy crush. But um, I just always thought, I'm just gonna be wherever he is. You know, I wasn't thinking like marriage, but, but I just knew, well, wherever he is is where I want to be.

• 28:01Jocko Willink?

  Right on. Okay. So then what happens?

• 28:04Speaker 01

  Oh, we break up.

• 28:06Jocko Willink?

  So that kind of?

• 28:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. So we broke up.

• 28:09Jocko Willink?

  Oh, this is your senior year?

• 28:10Speaker 01

  My senior year.

• 28:10Jocko Willink?

  So he's gone?

• 28:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. So he moved down to Florida. And so the deal was, is he wanted to be an officer. And at that time, so he enrolled in University of Central Florida. His mom and dad are in Orlando. He's down there with them. He's thinking, I'm gonna go to college. I'm gonna get a four-year degree and then I'm gonna go do the whole Navy BUDS deal. But they were saying, hey, we're not really taking officers right now because we just don't need them. So you can go get your degree, but it's not, that's not gonna work out. And so basically a year into college, he said, okay, I'm out and joined.

• 28:51Speaker 01

  So we broke up my senior year.

• 28:54Jocko Willink?

  Did you break up before or after he joined the Navy?

• 28:57Speaker 01

  Before.

• 28:58Jocko Willink?

  So before?

• 28:58Speaker 01

  So he's in Orlando. I'm in Lejeune. We break up. Really just because I think, you know, you got friends that are like, why are you dating some boy that lives so far away? That's stupid and all the things. So we broke up and um, we spent two and a half years, pretty much went by in that time, the time he was in college and my senior year and then. My first year after graduating high school, we just didn't really speak to each other. And this was before cell phones or social media.

• 29:35Jocko Willink?

  You can't properly cyber stalk somebody back in the, back in the day.

• 29:39Speaker 01

  Right. And I would stay in touch with his sister, his little sister. So she's 10 years younger than him. She was pretty young. I mean, I met her when she was five, so she's pretty young, but um. And so I always kind of knew what he was doing and I knew he joined the Navy and, you know, went to boot camp and was going to BUDs and uh. I, I really wanted to be there for his graduation of BUDs, but. I thought that might be weird if I just show up. Plus I'd never been to California, the whole thing. I'm living.

• 30:11Jocko Willink?

  I'm gonna confirm that would be weird. Yeah.

• 30:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And so during this time, you know, he, he goes to college, joins the military. I finish high school. My family moves to Tampa because my dad is at CENTCOM. So his family's Orlando, my family's in Tampa. I'm going to community college. And I think I want to be there for his BUDs graduation, but I can't do that. So I need to put myself in a position that doesn't allow me to do that. So I went on a cruise. And I thought, if I'm on a boat, I can't get off the boat. I'm like 19 or something and we docked, we docked in New Orleans and I told my girlfriend, I was like, I'm, I'm getting off the boat. I'm gonna go get on a plane and I'm just gonna show up there. And she's like, okay. And then I realized I didn't have any money to get there. I'd spent it all on the cruise.

• 30:57Jocko Willink?

  And were you, but you hadn't been communicating with him during this time period?

• 31:01Speaker 01

  No, just keeping in touch with his sister and like his mom would check in from time to time.

• 31:05Jocko Willink?

  Cause his mom still liked you?

• 31:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I hope, you know, so, yeah.

• 31:11Jocko Willink?

  So then, so then he graduates BUDs?

• 31:13Speaker 01

  So he graduates BUDs.

• 31:14Jocko Willink?

  And now what happens?

• 31:15Speaker 01

  Well, I knew he graduated BUDs and then I also knew he was coming back to Orlando. So I took a couple of days off work and just waited. And then he called and said, hey, I'd really like to see you. And I was like, oh, that's cool. Let me see if I can get off work. You know, you gotta play tough. And um, yeah, didn't, drove there, um, was super nervous. His brother, I think, opened the door. He was wrestling his other brother in the background, probably trying to play it cool. And pretty much the same thing as that day on the bleachers, you know, as soon as I saw him, I was like, oh, man.

• 31:54Jocko Willink?

  So he had graduated BUDS at that point. So now he must be on orders, got orders to a team.

• 32:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. So he had to go, uh, this is when they were had specific rates, your timeframe probably too. So he went to the medic school.

• 32:10Jocko Willink?

  Oh, so yeah. So actually, so he, what he got was he must've been a corpsman and then they would take corpsman and after BUDS, they would take corpsman and send them to 18 Delta, the, the, the special forces medic school.

• 32:23Speaker 01

  What's interesting about that, and I might mess this up a little bit, but, um, his dad then had orders to Fort Bragg and his dad ran that school.

• 32:32Jocko Willink?

  Oh.

• 32:33Speaker 01

  So he went through the school that his dad was running. It's interesting.

• 32:38Jocko Willink?

  That's awesome. I guess he got some good grades, hopefully.

• 32:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. He's a smart guy. He does good in school.

• 32:45Jocko Willink?

  So, uh, so, so then what happens? So then he's going to that school. Now are you two back together? Is this like we're, we're, we're back, we're back.

• 32:53Speaker 01

  So we're back together and this is, I had 96 and so I decide because I want to be wherever he is. I'm going to go to college at Methodist, which is a really small school in Fayetteville. So I go up there for a semester. I had to do a whole presentation to my dad, my dad, right? Colonel in the Marine Corps. He always says, when you want to do something, you better have your ducks lined up and come to me. And I did like a report and figured out how much it would cost. I got scholarships. I got different things. How much it would be paid for, really because I just wanted to be closer to Chad.

• 33:26Jocko Willink?

  Was that part of the briefing or not?

• 33:28Speaker 01

  I think he probably understood that, but I lasted one semester. I hated it and I left and went back to Florida. So he did the medic school and then he was off to SEAL Team Eight.

• 33:38Jocko Willink?

  And then what, once he got to SEAL Team Eight, did you guys reconnect again?

• 33:41Speaker 01

  Well, so we're, we are dating long distance now. Uh, he's at Team Eight. I'm down in Florida. And then I end up going to the University of Florida and we're thinking, okay, I'm going to do college down here. You're going to do that. And then we break up again.

• 33:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, so two, two pretty big breakups.

• 34:02Jocko Willink?

  It's hard to check into a team and have like a girlfriend or whatever. No offense to girlfriends of the world, but when you get to a team, it is like you are going down. You are, when you're a young, new team guy, you have so much on your mind as far as work goes. It's like, hey, I don't have time for anything else right now. And I don't know, that's probably has at least a little something to do with it. You know, you're down in Florida, he's up there like wanting to make sure he's good to go for this and that.

• 34:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, we just had, I mean, he would drive down still on the weekends.

• 34:35Jocko Willink?

  Oh, well, give him credit then, you, yeah, then he gets full credit then.

• 34:38Speaker 01

  And, um, but yeah, we broke up and, uh, that was just terrible because I really thought that that was probably it. I thought I probably lost him forever.

• 34:51Jocko Willink?

  And then how long were you guys broken up for?

• 34:54Speaker 01

  Uh, I'm trying to think of the timeline. It was probably like a year, year and a half. Something like that.

• 35:00Jocko Willink?

  Did he do, did he do his first deployment?

• 35:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, he did a deployment. He was on, uh, the Enterprise. He was on a ship. Only time he was on a ship at that time and.

• 35:09Jocko Willink?

  What year was that?

• 35:11Speaker 01

  Um, probably ninety seven or eight.

• 35:16Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 35:17Speaker 01

  Somewhere in that.

• 35:18Jocko Willink?

  Right on, yeah. So he, he's, he does a deployment, he's a medic. You guys are broken up, you're going to Flor- you're going to college in Florida.

• 35:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I'm still keeping in touch with his sister. And we had, you know, we had email. So, you know, like the dial up.

• 35:40Speaker 01

  And I would do the dial up email and check to see if you'd ever email me. And then all of a sudden, one day he did. And he just said, I just, I told the guys, I, I keep thinking about you and I want to see you. And I was like, yes. So.

• 35:53Jocko Willink?

  So you say come up to Virginia Beach? Did he come down to Florida?

• 35:55Speaker 01

  No, I said, you know where I live.

• 35:59Speaker 01

  Well, first of all, he was still in deployment. He wasn't quite home yet. And so I didn't know and I'm in college and, um, yeah, he drove down and showed up at my doorstep and I did the same thing I did in high school. I just.

• 36:15Speaker 01

  Couldn't believe he was there, you know, and, and just excited. And we said to each other, I said to him before he comes, came down, if we see each other again, we're gonna know. Like, this is either gonna be forever, or it's just not. And he came down. And pretty much role reversal. When I went to Orlando and he asked me to stay an extra day, I said, do you think you could stay an extra day? And that was it. So that was,

• 36:45Speaker 01

  the summer of ninety-nine, I think, May of ninety-nine.

• 36:50Jocko Willink?

  How old are you at this point?

• 36:52Speaker 01

  You're gonna make me do math? I don't know, I'm like twenty-one.

• 36:55Jocko Willink?

  So you're, oh yeah, you're in college. So you're a young college

• 36:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:59Jocko Willink?

  girl, and he's swoops in.

• 37:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:04Jocko Willink?

  And says, alright, we're, we're gonna do this?

• 37:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean.

• 37:08Jocko Willink?

  Did you drop out of college? What'd you do?

• 37:10Speaker 01

  No, I stayed in college.

• 37:12Jocko Willink?

  You're slightly more responsible than that.

• 37:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, I stayed in college.

• 37:18Speaker 01

  We, he, we got engaged that summer in July. We got married on paper, as a lot of military people do. We actually got married up in Virginia Beach in the, in this guy's backyard. And so we were at least married and had all that. And I spent time down in Florida, and then I worked it to graduate. I had to do an internship to, to finish my degree. So I got an internship with the city of Virginia Beach. Cause I wanted to be where he was.

• 37:50Jocko Willink?

  So you guys, you, you, you get married, well, he proposes to you. And then you get married, the old school, like what I did, you know, my, my wife and I got married at the San Diego courthouse and my chief was like the wit, cause you have to bring a witness. So I'm like, I was like, hey, can you come wit, you know, witness my wedding? And he's like, you're getting married? Yeah. Okay, so we went down there and, you know, this judge goes like, alright, you two are married. And then we walked out and then we went to like, Danny's and had a hamburger. That was the honeymoon. I'm a little bad husband. But that's what we did, you know, that's sort of, that's what you guys did too.

• 38:24Speaker 01

  I mean, I think for me, that's a better story. You know, our story, we went and got married in this guy's backyard. Nobody knew. We were living in a house with team guys. I was living with him and four other team guys in a house. It was just like.

• 38:37Jocko Willink?

  That was some good times.

• 38:38Speaker 01

  Weekend at Bernie's, you know, just.

• 38:40Jocko Willink?

  My poor wife, my poor wife did that too. She didn't, well, it wasn't for team guys, but it was me, my running mate, team guy roommate, who is just the best guy ever. And also just like insane. We were all crazy. And then, so we, we lived in the upstairs apartment and then two other team guys lived below us. And it was just, well, I'm sure it was very similar to the environment you were in. You know, like the, the furniture was cruise boxes, uh, dinner was Domino's, breakfast was Guinness, lunch was Jägermeister, and it was just mayhem.

• 39:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. Chad's brother likes to say he remembers coming to visit and he got out of the shower and it was so disgusting. He just took a paper towel and like patted his body dry because he didn't want to use anything. I mean, I don't know if it was that gross maybe for him, but um, you know, it was dude's house. And you know, I got to live there and, and there was one giant sofa that was the ugliest. Chad had bought it. It was a Scandinavian print. It was the tackiest, ugliest thing. And in literally his entire life, he still talked about that stupid sofa.

• 39:51Jocko Willink?

  That is, I, so my wife and I, but my, my old running mate, we had this freaking couch that was gold. Uh, I think it's called velvet, velvet? Is that what it's called? Like this kind of like a.

• 40:04Speaker 01

  Like really soft?

• 40:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 40:06Speaker 01

  Push back and forth?

• 40:06Jocko Willink?

  So it was gold velvet. It had some kind of wood carvings on the end. It had to have been.

• 40:14Jocko Willink?

  More than 10 feet long. It was freaking huge. We could

• 40:18Speaker 01

  That was this?

• 40:18Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And it was the most comfortable couch ever. And I think we got it at a whatever thrift store for whatever $38 or something. Best couch ever.

• 40:26Speaker 01

  That's what he says. And we could fit like three to four full sized dudes on it. I think it was more typical. We'd wake up and one of them would be on the sofa just because it was comfortable. And they, the house, it was, there was a sofa and there was a kegerator. That was it in the living room. And when I told them to put decorations up, I was like, you guys need stuff on the wall. They hung shooting targets.

• 40:49Speaker 01

  Like the real ones, the pictures, you know, the man and the woman, you have to decide, does he have a weapon, does not, go shoot him. That was when it was in our house for a little while. Yeah.

• 40:59Jocko Willink?

  So you got like a har- a really nice welcome to the team community.

• 41:04Speaker 01

  It was. Yeah. It was, it was um

• 41:08Speaker 01

  such a different life back then. Yeah.

• 41:10Jocko Willink?

  And you're, are you going out with the boys? Like when my wife came over and, you know, we weren't married yet, but when she, when we started, when she started living with me, she would like come out with us, you know, and hang.

• 41:22Speaker 01

  Oh yeah. We'd go out and um, burn it down. I, I, you know, I'm in Virginia Beach and there's this bar that's been there forever, Hot Tuna. They've since redone it, but

• 41:33Jocko Willink?

  Platoonas.

• 41:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. I just went back, literally like two weeks ago for the first time. And I thought, I haven't been here in forever. And it took me back to one night in particular, Chad drove a green Jeep Cherokee, still his favorite car, always. And we went out with a bunch of guys and we just lifted up the back gate, you know, and just shoved him in there instead of actually, you know, this is a long time ago, forget the seatbelt, shove in there. We went to Hot Tuna. Sure enough, there was a fight. We got kicked out, told to leave. And I just remember running out there, throwing up the back gate, the guys getting in and we're out.

• 42:09Jocko Willink?

  And this lifestyle to you, what were you thinking? We were like, okay, well, this is the way it is.

• 42:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't even think I thought anything. I just was in it and you're military and a military kid and you understand just the camaraderie that can happen there and and the sense of family that it can create. And I was, I was really happy and I think he was too, to have made it to be a team guy. He was that teammate. Yeah.

• 42:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I

• 42:46Jocko Willink?

  I don't know if there's anything better than being an E5 in a SEAL platoon. It's just freaking awesome. And it's everything you just said.

• 42:56Speaker 01

  Well, we, so we had a big wedding later, right? So we had, I think for our family, they wanted like the bigger wedding. So in May of now, we're gonna go to 2000, I guess, we got married and so the boys all decided they were gonna come. And they rented an RV and they drove from Virginia Beach to where we got married and all my girlfriends from college had come and they were and they're, you know, don't ask a dumb question. They're, we're in the reception and you look around the room and there's one huge round table with all these really good looking dudes around it and the girls are like, are those the Navy SEALs?

• 43:36Speaker 01

  Not only are they like a bunch of dudes and they're good looking and a couple, one of them had like a butterfly stitch on his forehead because they stopped in Savannah and got in a bar fight. So it was like so appropriate, you know? It was good.

• 43:48Jocko Willink?

  The, when, once you moved to Virginia Beach, he was, he must have been in a workup. When did he go on deployment?

• 43:54Speaker 01

  Uh, that's when I start to forget. So he's already done one deployment when he was on the ship.

• 43:59Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 44:00Speaker 01

  And then he comes back and then he did two more there. Um, I honestly can't remember the months.

• 44:06Jocko Willink?

  So he's going on deployment for the first time, or the first time that you're married. So it's his, I guess it'd be his second deployment?

• 44:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:14Jocko Willink?

  And now you're like, what did you do? Did you stay in Virginia Beach? Did you go?

• 44:19Speaker 01

  So this was like, I had to do the whole. I lived there. I did my internship, then we got really married for real and oh, that's right, because he did deploy and I moved back home with my family during that second deployment. We were in the middle of like not living anywhere. So we'd lived with the team guys. We had our own apartment for a little while and which was also one of the greatest times because you don't realize it at the time when you're young and you have no money and you live in an apartment. I think it was $425 a month, Pleasure House Road, Shore Drive, Chicks Beach, like where everything goes down. Just how great that is. You have nothing and you kind of need nothing.

• 45:01Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 45:02Speaker 01

  It's such simplicity. So anyway, we moved out of that apartment. He left on deployment. I went back home to stay with my family.

• 45:09Jocko Willink?

  What do you do when you're living in that little apartment? You know, like what makes that so good?

• 45:14Speaker 01

  Ah, I mean, there's nothing to take care of. It's an apartment. Our friend Lance Vaccaro, who passed away in 2008, he lived in the same complex. So you know, you shoot the shit with him when you see him and yeah, just like making dinner and eating it on that. We had a cruise box, one of those metal folding collapsible ones. Remember those?

• 45:37Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 45:38Speaker 01

  That was our coffee table. You just put a little like tablecloth over it. We'd eat there. It was like cooking meals in a crock pot. Terrible.

• 45:46Jocko Willink?

  Me and my buddy had a cruise box that we had like by the by the big gold couch. We had a cruise box that had the phone on it and then on the cruise box was in Sharpie was written everyone's like numbers from the different platoons and like the team area number. Oh yeah, those are good times. I was talking also about the as you advance in life, when you get an apartment, that's like step one. But then when you get an apartment that has, I was telling my kids this, when you get an apartment that has a washer and dryer like on site, that's a big deal. And then if you have one that has parking, that's like the next big step up in life.

• 46:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 46:25Jocko Willink?

  Those things are, those things bring you joy when you're young and broke.

• 46:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. I've driven by that apartment a few times in the last two years and all the places we've lived in Virginia Beach, you know.

• 46:36Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so you do the big, the big wedding.

• 46:38Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 46:39Jocko Willink?

  And all these, your girlfriends are there from college. There's a bunch of team guys there. That sounds like a awesome time. And, and, and then he's going on deployment again?

• 46:50Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, so he, we get married, he goes on deployment. Uh, I think before he left on deployment is when I found out I was pregnant.

• 47:04Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 47:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, which was another reason they like took me home.

• 47:07Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 47:07Speaker 01

  So, we weren't planning it, but we weren't not planning it. It was kinda like, you know, we've been together forever and it is what it is. So.

• 47:16Jocko Willink?

  So you get pregnant, he goes on deployment.

• 47:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:20Jocko Willink?

  You go home to.

• 47:22Speaker 01

  Florida.

• 47:23Jocko Willink?

  Okay, you go home to Florida and you're living, you know, doing whatever you're doing.

• 47:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, and this again was before, we didn't have cell phones. So, you know, this, it's interesting when people are like upset cause they didn't get to like FaceTime with their husband on deployment in today's world, right? Cause I would miss phone calls and then you don't know when he's gonna call you again. And I have so many letters he wrote me. I'm pretty grateful for that. And so I'm in Florida, he's deployed, trying to talk to him when I can, growing a baby in my belly and all the things.

• 48:00Jocko Willink?

  And then he comes home. When, did you have the baby while he was on deployment or did he come home in time?

• 48:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, he came home. So, cause I was like super newly pregnant when he left. Um, so we know we're, we're still staying in Virginia Beach. So I go up to Virginia Beach, super pregnant with my mom and buy our first house while he's gone.

• 48:19Jocko Willink?

  Sweet.

• 48:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, and then he came home from deployment May 2001 and my daughter was born in August. And now he's still at teammate, he's done two deployments and, yeah.

• 48:37Jocko Willink?

  And it's your daughter was born in August of two thousand and one. And he's in another platoon at this point?

• 48:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. And he, so he, he gets through his deployments and for the rest of his time there, he goes to night school. Because he's trying to finish his degree. So he finishes his degree at ODU. We have a new baby. And then he finishes his time, uh, he was at trade at.

• 49:04Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 49:06Speaker 01

  So we're just like a young family, you know?

• 49:09Jocko Willink?

  When September 11th happens, so is he at trade at when September 11th happens?

• 49:15Speaker 01

  He was at, ah. Yeah, I think he might have been actually. Yeah.

• 49:22Jocko Willink?

  And so September 11th happens. Now what are you thinking?

• 49:26Speaker 01

  Ah, that's such crazy. It, everyone remembers where they were when that happened.

• 49:33Speaker 01

  I don't even think I had the ability to think about it in the scope of the military. And what the military was gonna do or our country was gonna do to react. I just was dumbfounded. Kept trying to call him at work, couldn't get ahold of him. He eventually showed up at the house. And we just kinda looked at each other and he's like, holy shit. So.

• 49:56Jocko Willink?

  And at that point, did you, was he like, okay, I'm gonna go back on deployment? Was he, what was his plan at that point?

• 50:06Speaker 01

  I mean, I think his plan was to just stay. He at that point, I think he always wanted to just be a career SEAL. So whatever was gonna keep him in the game. Quite honestly, we had a conversation after our deployment and that he wanted to go to Dam Neck. And I was like, no.

• 50:26Speaker 01

  And I don't even know why I said no. I, I never said no. I always like supported him and encouraged him, pushed him, but for some reason at that point, I didn't want him to go. Um, I don't know how it would have turned out if he would have gone then, but yeah, so he, he stayed in the military. But then.

• 50:49Speaker 01

  Cause in all this, when he came home from that last deployment, I got pregnant with our son, or his third deployment at eight. And that was when, so 2001, but fast forward, you know, we're in 2004. And I think we both kinda, well, I'd say it's more me. We wanted something different. So Chad wanted to be a SEAL. He always wanted to be a door kicker. That's what he wanted to do, you know, hide in the bushes and do all the things. And as military kids, I was really trying to do something different. And the grass is greener on the other side, right? I moved all the time and I didn't want my kids to have to move all the

• 51:30Speaker 01

  time. And I didn't want their dad to be gone all the time. And so we talked about it and we were making the decision to get out of the military. So he had been in 10 years at this point. And it's 2004. His son is born. He wrapped up that last deployment and we got out and moved to Raleigh, North Carolina.

• 51:51Jocko Willink?

  Do you know where he went on, did he go to Iraq or Afghanistan on that deployment? Or did he do a different deployment like over to UCOM or something?

• 51:57Speaker 01

  Uh, I should know these statistics and facts better, but I don't. I mean, I'm like 23 with a baby and-

• 52:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Well, this would be very similar to asking my wife where I went on deployment. She'd be like, I have no idea. He was gone. That was my wife's attitude too.

• 52:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:13Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. He's gone. He'll be back later.

• 52:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. So-

• 52:17Jocko Willink?

  So you all make this decision to, to get out?

• 52:21Speaker 01

  Right.

• 52:22Jocko Willink?

  And then what's the plan?

• 52:24Speaker 01

  So at that point, his family's now living in Raleigh, North Carolina. And he's, he has his college degree. He's done 10 years in the military and he thinks, okay, I'm gonna get out and I'm gonna provide for my family in a civilian world. And, and that's what we did. And he got a job in pharmaceuticals. You know, there's a lot of research there. Um, kind of irony in that when I'm sitting here thinking about him and his life and the path that he chose, but he was in pharmaceutical research and we just hated it from the moment we left. I think most people are creatures of habit. It's my belief, right? People are creatures of habit, whether you like that habit or you don't like the habit. It's,

• 53:07Speaker 01

  it just is what it is. And our habit is that we are military kids. We are used to adversity and challenge and changing dynamics on the regular. We're used to different situations and the idea of living in the same house, doing the same job with the same people for the rest of your life is nauseating. And I don't think it was challenging for him. And while he did one of his last jumps with the guys before he left, the guys jumped out of the plane and they're like, you're not going to do this with your pharmaceutical dudes, you know? And I think, I think that always bugged him and, and I think like most of these

• 53:50Speaker 01

  guys, they don't want to feel like they quit, I guess. And for Chad, anyway, separating from the military and not retiring, he probably felt like he wasn't finished. And I felt that too, because he was miserable. He was miserable and we were miserable.

• 54:07Jocko Willink?

  How long did it take for buyer's remorse to set in? Like when you get to North Carolina, was there any sort of like honeymoon period? Hey, we can go on a picnic today and we don't have to worry about anything?

• 54:16Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 54:17Jocko Willink?

  How long did that last?

• 54:17Speaker 01

  There was all that. I mean, I think it lasted for about a year, even though I think in the back of our minds, we'd lay in bed and we're like, he'd say, what are we doing? What are we doing?

• 54:29Jocko Willink?

  Like out of the gate?

• 54:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:31Jocko Willink?

  Really?

• 54:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, at night, you know, but then it's like, okay, we're, we're doing it though. Cause, cause at the same time you see it as a challenge in some ways. You're like, am I doubting myself because I want to go back or am I doubting myself because now I just have this new challenge and I gotta like overcome it?

• 54:46Jocko Willink?

  What was he doing for the pharmaceutical company?

• 54:49Speaker 01

  He was a project manager and I think he was eye candy for all the girls in the office. I know this because my sister-in-law works in the field too, and she would tell me stories. But, um, yeah, he tell, I, I just.

• 55:06Speaker 01

  He said to me, I, he came home and he's like, Sarah, I was sitting in the break room today, celebrating a baby shower, eating a pink fucking cupcake, and I'm questioning my life. And you're like, okay, I don't think this is gonna work. And

• 55:26Speaker 01

  as cool as it is to have him home every day, and he had a good job, we made good money, the American dream. I mean, our house had a wraparound porch, no joke, the picket fence, I mean, by, by most standards, I don't even know if that's fair to say anymore in today's world, but it was the quote, "American dream," but it was not our dream.

• 55:48Jocko Willink?

  How far into it was the cupcake incident? Was that like, two months into it?

• 55:53Speaker 01

  No, that was closer towards the end. That was probably about two years.

• 55:55Jocko Willink?

  It was like the cupcake that broke the camel's back?

• 55:58Speaker 01

  Totally. Pink cupcake broke him. I think it just was a real pivot point, and this isn't to bash cupcakes, or baby showers, or any of those things, but

• 56:10Speaker 01

  he's just a he's a dude, you know? He's a military dude. He's a knife-carrying, you know, dude. And for him to put on a business suit and a tie every day, you, you just, people shouldn't be things they're not, and that's not who he was.

• 56:31Jocko Willink?

  So what was the total time that he, he made it in the pharmaceutical?

• 56:35Speaker 01

  So he left the military in 2004, and we were back in the military September of 2007.

• 56:44Jocko Willink?

  So, like, two and a half, two and a half years?

• 56:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:47Jocko Willink?

  What, when he, like, okay, so he comes home from the cup, the cupcake incident, or you just like, you, you can see the misery in his face, and you're like, alright, I'm good, let's go?

• 56:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I, that, um, we also, I mean, I remember being in the living room and, and hearing about Red Wings, and us sitting in the living room and watching it on TV, and just, him just, you know, he was just sitting there, he kinda had his hands on his head, and he's, holy shit. I think that probably had a large part, even though we didn't come back for some time, I think those things weighed on him. The way the world was changing, it was ramping up, we're now a couple of years past 9/11. He, he felt called to go back.

• 57:34Jocko Willink?

  Then he makes a phone call, talks to like some team guy or whatever and team guy recruiter or something?

• 57:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, we didn't really know how that was gonna play out, right? I mean, they could have just said, no, you left. But I think at the time, you know, he, he, you know, he was a team guy that had done a few deployments. He had good service, respected. They said, sure. But they told him because he hadn't deployed in, you know, almost three years. He had to go back through.

• 58:03Jocko Willink?

  Oh, SQT?

• 58:04Speaker 01

  Well, it was STT when he graduated, but SQT, yeah.

• 58:07Jocko Willink?

  Changed to SQT, yeah.

• 58:08Speaker 01

  So we, I mean, he left for work one day. He had talked to this guy and was kind of figuring out if this was gonna work or not. And he left for work one day and I just said, his tie and his suit and all, I said, this is stupid. We gotta go back and we sold our house and, and he signed up to go back. And we sold a lot of what we owned. And, cause there was no need to have it. We, we were gonna move to California. He, he said if he had to go back through SQT again, he wanted to just go to a west coast team. Just so we could all be out there together. And we put a little bit of things in a U-Haul and the kids and I flew out to San Diego. And I had never been there.

• 58:52Speaker 01

  Oh, I came out and like house hunted, tried to find an apartment for us a couple of weeks prior. But other than that, I hadn't really spent any time out here. And, and he drove a U-Haul cross-country, chowing down on sunflower seeds and just going like ninety. And like, you know, jacked up on caffeine and, and got there.

• 59:13Jocko Willink?

  Then where did you guys move into? Did you guys move to Coronado?

• 59:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, we found this cool little, just got lucky, found this cool little apartment. Same thing, kind of like our first apartment. It, I mean, this place can't be more than eight hundred square feet. It was two bedrooms, one bathroom. It was our entire BAH, maybe even a little bit more, and our kids shared a room.

• 59:35Jocko Willink?

  Did you say you had been to San Diego before or you had not?

• 59:38Speaker 01

  I had only come out like a week or two before to try to find a place to live.

• 59:43Jocko Willink?

  What were you thinking when you drove from San Diego over the Coronado Bay Bridge and you see Coronado?

• 59:47Speaker 01

  I was flipping my lid. I just was like, yes, this is amazing.

• 59:53Jocko Willink?

  It's one of the craziest sights, I think, when you bring anyone to San Diego and you go to Coronado, you drive over the bridge and you just see Coronado.

• 1:00:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:02Jocko Willink?

  It's ridiculous. It's ridiculous.

• 1:00:05Speaker 01

  And I've spent, you know, I spent most of my youth on the East Coast and, and almost always close to a beach. I always, you know, I don't want to live more than 30 minutes from a beach, let's be honest. So the fact that I could flip coast and, and live here and on Coronado is, yeah.

• 1:00:20Jocko Willink?

  And there's no mosquitoes here?

• 1:00:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:22Jocko Willink?

  I had a friend coming out and, and him and his wife and, like it was getting to be dusk. And they were like, oh, the mosquito's gonna come. I'm like, there's no mosquitoes here. They didn't believe me. They didn't believe, they didn't understand. What are you talking about? How could there be no mosquitoes? It's totally, yeah, crazy. So now you're living in Coronado.

• 1:00:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:43Jocko Willink?

  Kind of living the dream, taking bikes around the sidewalk, walking to get coffee and all that stuff.

• 1:00:49Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. I got a rad little beach cruiser Chad bought me and our kids were little and, um, my son learned to ride a two wheeler at two. And he had this little mini bike and we made friends with the guy in the bike shop and his name's, my son's Hudson. And Hudson would ride in the bike shop and one day the guy's like, hey, little man, come here. And he swapped out, I should show you a picture of this. He swapped out at the handlebars of his bike for ape hangers.

• 1:01:13Jocko Willink?

  Oh dang.

• 1:01:14Speaker 01

  So he was like, he turned three and he was a three year old with this like little mini bike and these ape hanger handlebars. It was great.

• 1:01:22Jocko Willink?

  And Chad's going to SQT this time. So SQT, just so everyone knows, it's when you get done with BUDS, you go, you graduate from BUDS and after BUDS, they start to teach you some stuff in this thing called SQT. You don't really learn anything in BUDS, other than how to go through suffering. And then you get to SQT and they start teaching you like all the fundamental, basic individual skills of being a SEAL at a higher level. And occasionally, like Chad's a perfect example. Guys, guys out for three years. Hey, we got new radios. Uh, we need, we can't just throw them back in a platoon. All right. Send them through SQT. So occasionally that happens. It happens sometimes. God doesn't even have to get out. If a guy's on shore duty for three years and he's been in some billet where he's not operational for three years,

• 1:02:07Jocko Willink?

  they'll be like, hey, you know, you go back through SQT and you guys are cool. Yep. Got it. And so you're doing individual skills, but he, in that position, all the other guys, first of all, the other guys don't even have their tridents yet. So he's a actual SEAL.

• 1:02:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:23Jocko Willink?

  And they're, uh, they're just not even new guys yet because they don't even, they don't have their tridents. So he's in a position of like real mentorship and to help them out and they're looking up to him. So that's, that's what's happening with him.

• 1:02:39Speaker 01

  Definitely. He, one thing I always loved about Chad is he is very good at teaching you what he knows without making you feel dumb. I think he gets a lot of that probably from his dad and the way his dad is, but

• 1:02:57Speaker 01

  I think that that's a real skill and, and try to like foster your own learning while he's teaching you something. And so I think it was a really natural fit for him while he was in SQT to just be the guy that would, you know, lean into guys and say, hey, man, this is how I like rig my gear up this way. And I, you know, do this, this way. And I think it was a good experience, hopefully for the guys that were with him, you know, to have this more senior person around, but it was also good for Chad.

• 1:03:28Jocko Willink?

  And this, didn't you start doing CrossFit at this time out here?

• 1:03:31Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Yeah.

• 1:03:33Jocko Willink?

  And was that Andy's gym?

• 1:03:35Speaker 01

  Andy Stump, yeah.

• 1:03:36Jocko Willink?

  So the reason I'm laughing is because, you know, you're talking about how Chad was the type of person that could teach you something without making you feel bad about what you don't know. I think Andy might be the opposite of that. Andy like enjoys if he's got to teach somebody something. He teaches me stuff that I already know he makes me feel stupid.

• 1:03:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's definitely more his personality, I think.

• 1:03:59Jocko Willink?

  He likes to have fun with it.

• 1:03:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, definitely.

• 1:04:01Jocko Willink?

  So you, so this is Andy had like a CrossFit gym in Coronado.

• 1:04:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:04:05Jocko Willink?

  And so you just rolled in there and signed up? Did you know anything about CrossFit at the time?

• 1:04:09Speaker 01

  So when we were in Raleigh, Chad started doing CrossFit. This was like 2005. And he was so into CrossFit, I was so not into CrossFit. It's kind of how that played out. I remember cooking dinner one night and he said, you need to come in the garage. I got this thing called a muscle up. And I was like, oh, and I opened the door and he did it. And I was like, cool. And then slammed the door like a total jerk. So he had put me through some workouts in our garage in Raleigh, but I, minimal exposure, you know, and living in Coronado and having two little kids and he's busy with work. And I feel like, you know, I'm a mom with two kids. I probably need to exercise a little bit more. Riding my bike one day, I just passed the gym and it was new. It was like, literally like just opening.

• 1:04:51Speaker 01

  And I called him, didn't know Andy Stump at the time, called him up and said, hey, can I come to your gym? And that was it?

• 1:04:58Jocko Willink?

  That was it. Was he teaching?

• 1:05:00Speaker 01

  Not as much. His wife, Jamie was teaching a lot. Sage Castro, Dave Castro's wife was coaching there some.

• 1:05:11Jocko Willink?

  Right on.

• 1:05:11Speaker 01

  It was, it was such as, you know, this was the early days. We're talking 2007. Of, you know, of CrossFit gyms kind of expanding. And so it was a small gym, not a lot of trainers.

• 1:05:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, this is so, like, this is when Dave Castro was teaching SQT. And like, I think they ran a level one course.

• 1:05:37Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:05:38Jocko Willink?

  At SQT. And I went and went through it and just like hung out and got whatever, some kind of certification for that. And then that's, that's probably the first time that I met and started hanging out with Dave Castro. I think that's it. Because he was running that and he was like helping me out. And then we eventually, well, when we opened this gym that we're sitting in right now. That was 2000, that was late 2007. So, we had, you know, I had to go to like the certs and stuff like this that you have to get.

• 1:06:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:07Jocko Willink?

  Back in the day.

• 1:06:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. Keep your credential to keep your gym.

• 1:06:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, to keep your gym. And so you get, you get into it. You kind of get into it.

• 1:06:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, I do. I get really into it. I just, you know, I like the challenge. I like the physical challenge. I like the way my body was changing. Remember I'm a mom with two kids. So, yeah, I get into it. And so I got the opportunity to go to my level one. Didn't want to coach people, ever. Never. Never my plan. I just wanted to know more about it. So I went to my level one in San Diego, one weekend. Yeah.

• 1:06:43Jocko Willink?

  Okay. And then Chad, what's SQT six, six months? Something like that?

• 1:06:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 1:06:47Jocko Willink?

  And he's thinking, West Coast team.

• 1:06:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:50Jocko Willink?

  You're living the dream, living in Coronado.

• 1:06:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:53Jocko Willink?

  And then what happens there?

• 1:06:55Speaker 01

  Well, Bill King happened. The CEO from Dam Neck came to the West Coast to talk to the SQT guys and to, to explain to them down the pipeline, if they want to ever, you know, bridge that gap and head over to SEAL Team Six, here's kind of what you need to do. Most of those guys, when they finished SQT, as you said, they get their trident, they go to a regular team. They've got to do two to three deployments, you know, become maybe a little less green and then they can screen to go to Dam Neck. And that's when Chad went and took it upon himself to introduce himself to him and say, hey, my name's Chad Wilkinson. Here's a little bit of my story. I'm going to finish this up. I'm going to

• 1:07:38Speaker 01

  go to a West Coast team. And then in the future, I plan on coming to screen. And he just said, how about you don't and just come screen right now?

• 1:07:48Jocko Willink?

  That was that?

• 1:07:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, and he didn't consult me at all, but that's okay.

• 1:07:53Jocko Willink?

  So what'd you get, six months in the Nado?

• 1:07:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's just about it. I was pretty upset. I mean, but not, right? I mean, this is our life and this is our path, but I did not want to leave. Yeah, he came home and he said, hey, I'm gonna fly to Virginia Beach next weekend and do this thing to screen, and if that's the case, we're moving. And yeah, fast forward, we moved back to Virginia Beach, April of 2008.

• 1:08:17Jocko Willink?

  Did you move back there even before, like while he's starting to go through green team and everything?

• 1:08:23Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah. We moved like with him. Like he left to go to green team, we moved back.

• 1:08:30Jocko Willink?

  So then he makes it through green team and starts the, the, the cycle over there, which is deployment, deployment, deployment, workup, deployment, workup, deployment, workup, deployment, workup, deployment.

• 1:08:39Speaker 01

  I mean, at that time, yeah. 2008, it was fast and furious. It was busy.

• 1:08:46Jocko Willink?

  And when you get to Virginia Beach, are you, what'd you do with your CrossFit deal?

• 1:08:51Speaker 01

  So I moved back to Virginia Beach. I check out, at the time, there were only two other gyms in the area, and I couldn't really take my kids, because this was before there were a lot of kids spaces in CrossFit gyms, and there was really nowhere safe for them to be. We rented an apartment when we came back to Virginia Beach, not knowing where we wanted to live, and also not knowing if the whole green team thing was gonna pan out. I think for Chad, he just was like, I don't really know. And he rented a garage in this apartment complex, and we bought enough equipment so that we could put two people, he and I, essentially through a workout. And then my girlfriend said, well, can I

• 1:09:32Speaker 01

  come work out with you? And I was like, sure. And then that just kind of grew and grew, and then we had a whole bunch of people outside of the garage one day, and fast forward, October 2008, I opened my gym. So he's in green team, and anybody who's listening and has lived that is very stressful, especially when, you know, you're, you're coming, you're doing all these things, and you come home, and you got your wife and your kids, and you gotta do the family man thing too. And then I go ahead to take it upon myself to start this whole business venture. Yeah.

• 1:10:08Jocko Willink?

  You rented, how big was the space that you rented for that CrossFit gym?

• 1:10:12Speaker 01

  Oh, the first one?

• 1:10:13Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:13Speaker 01

  Oh, it was like twelve to thirteen hundred square feet and

• 1:10:20Speaker 01

  I, I just remember saying to him in the car, I was like, I need to do this because this is, this is about to take off. And, and this is all I want to do. I think he was a little worried because, you know, in our, his world, you live a really quiet life. And he didn't want anything that I was doing to not overshadow, but have any sort of imprint on what he was doing.

• 1:10:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:48Speaker 01

  You know, and, and, and of course, in a military town, the, the interesting part about owning the gym is what you're doing is you're providing a service to people. And it's a very personable service. So people think they know you. And what happens is your friends come and join the gym. And I had kind of established at the very beginning, like we're friends, but at the same time, this is, this is a, you know, a business and you do, if, if you're a team wife, you don't talk about it in this gym. You don't, I don't want to hear when your husband's coming home. I don't want to hear when your husband's leaving. I don't want to hear about another spouse. That just wasn't going to fly. So, so we were busy and with two little kids.

• 1:11:31Jocko Willink?

  And how did the gym take off? How did it do?

• 1:11:33Speaker 01

  It went, it was awesome. Uh, my whole hope was just to be able to cover the rent and my expenses and we exceeded that the first month.

• 1:11:42Jocko Willink?

  The first month?

• 1:11:44Speaker 01

  And, uh, we were still working on a lot of things though, you know, the first person that came beyond my kids and they had a little kid, I didn't know what to do with them. So I stacked up some tires and I just stuck the kid in the center of the tires. I'm like, just stay there till we're done. Cause it was such a small space. I look back at those pictures now. Oh man, anybody from CrossFit listening, and I do not know how someone didn't get clubbed in the head with a barbell. How close we were, but it all worked out.

• 1:12:12Jocko Willink?

  And meanwhile Chad's, like you said, this is now 2008. So it's just, um, it's on.

• 1:12:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:19Jocko Willink?

  And he, and he's going on deployments and now we, we kind of already talked about this and I mentioned that my wife would be like, I don't even know where my husband's at. He's gone and he'll be back later. That was kind of her attitude. And it's, I think. Quite frankly, well, I can't speak for everybody, but it definitely worked for my wife. You know, she just, hey, you go do what you gotta do. I'll be here. I'll be here man in the fort back home. And that was good. And maybe it would have been more stressful if she knew where I was or what I was doing or anything like that. She just was like, you go do what you gotta do. Well, did you guys have that? Was that sort of the way you guys operated?

• 1:12:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, when he, when he was deploying, it was Iraq, Afghanistan. Then it became Africa. And I knew generally, you know, what country he was in. But beyond that, that's how we always operated was, you do your job and I'll do my job. Meaning, take care of our kids when you're gone. And when you're gone, you're gone. And when you're home, you're home. I know some other spouses, they share a whole lot and they, they know probably way more stories about their husband than I know. And, and maybe almost too much, but Chad really, really lived by the fact that you don't talk about it. And, and it could have much to what you said. Maybe he just didn't want me to worry either.

• 1:13:40Speaker 01

  That's what I'd like to think. Um, and, and vice versa, I didn't call him and say, you know, I mean, my hot water heater busted one time in the attic and it's flooding everywhere. What's it gonna do if I call him and? No, so you, you, you know, SEAL wives are tough too.

• 1:13:57Jocko Willink?

  They're, yeah, definitely. And I, I think, you know, you said on, you, you said you weren't sure if Chad didn't want you to worry. I can almost guarantee you that the attitude was like, the last thing he wants you to do is worry. And I remember, uh, one of my guys, Mikey Monsour, who, you know, he died at the end of our deployment, but when, when I got home and talking to his family and his, his sister, Sarah, was, you know, just telling me, uh, and this was, we were in this place called Ramadi. It was a really, uh, kinetic deployment with a lot of casualties and.

• 1:14:34Jocko Willink?

  He had told his family, you know, when he would call them, oh yeah, we're just, you know, we're just training some Iraqis. We're, yep, we're not doing anything. It's boring, like all these kinds of things. I mean, these are just outright not true at all. But he just didn't want his family to worry about what he was doing.

• 1:14:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, and we had certain like code things. I knew when he would call me and he would say, "Okay, I'll call you when I can and I love you." It, he was going out. He was going out to do stuff and I, you know, would he call me in a day? Would it be three or four days? I don't know, but I, I knew that meant he was gonna be busy.

• 1:15:08Jocko Willink?

  And I'll also say, like, from my perspective, again, this is just me, but I don't wanna talk to my wife about that stuff. You know, I don't wanna talk to my wife. I don't wanna explain to her what's going on with this and what, I don't want, I don't, I wanna talk to her about like what our kids are doing, or what we're having for dinner, or whatever. I wanna talk about other stuff. That's what I wanna talk about. I don't wanna talk about Team Guy stuff with my wife. That's not, so maybe that, you know, plays into it too. And, yeah, I mean, my, like I said, my wife would, she would barely know where I was going or whatever. And it's partly because I didn't want her to worry, yes, but also I just don't, I wanna talk about other stuff.

• 1:15:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:49Jocko Willink?

  Talk about work, you know, 19 hours with these dudes. I wanna talk about it with you, darling. Talk about something else. But at some point, you must have realized, or did you start to see like, hey, these things are wearing on Chad? These deployments are, like, was, was there a change in his, in his attitude and his personality in, in the way he carried himself?

• 1:16:15Speaker 01

  Uh, yes and no. Uh, I think it's hard to distinguish when exactly that was. And, and I'm gonna bounce around a minute. I just had to scroll through a bunch of photos. Jason and I were working on something and through scrolling through those photos the other day, what I realized is when he really got bad, it was two years before he died. So 2016, I can almost see it through photos. But even before that, um,

• 1:16:49Speaker 01

  I do know, I know some stories now since he's died that he never shared with me. And 2012 was a pretty big deployment, I guess, or crazy deployment. I don't know the best way to say that. And I think some stuff happened there. In 2014, he was starting to change a little bit more. But what a spouse says is, well, that's just how they are.

• 1:17:17Speaker 01

  The, the, the world, the media talks, you know, Navy SEALs are big in the news now, right? Since nine 11, since May of 2011. They're all over and they're made to be larger than life and they use these words. And, and so if a guy is always told how brave and fearless and heroic and strong they are, then he's got to believe that, he's got to live that. And then on the same token, you see with our special operators, how they are, you know, quiet and how they do sit in the corner of the room and their back is always, you know, to the wall and they're always facing the door and they don't want to engage in conversation

• 1:17:58Speaker 01

  all the time and just chalk up all those, those PTSD symptoms that people like to throw out, but it's, I think it's very easy for someone like a spouse to say, well, that's just kind of how the guys are because they have a stressful job and they're beat down, their body's broken.

• 1:18:17Jocko Willink?

  So, so you said when you're looking at pictures now and you're going through the years, you can kind of start to identify things that you saw your, that when you look back, it becomes a little bit, does it become more obvious as you look back?

• 1:18:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, I, I couldn't tell you then, but it's, it's more obvious to me now.

• 1:18:37Jocko Willink?

  This might be a dumb question, but do you think that that has to do with the fact that we don't get taught anything about this kind of stuff? We, meaning, and, and maybe it's more prevalent now, but.

• 1:18:52Jocko Willink?

  You know, um, I, I did a, a, a couple podcasts on here, um, about, um, Louis Puller, Louis Puller Jr. He was the son of a famous Marine, the most famous Marine named Chesty Puller. And Louis Puller was, um, he was, he, his dad, Chesty Puller, was like the, the most iconic Marine ever. And he received five Navy Crosses and he, the, here's a good way to describe how iconic he is. He, uh, the Marine Corps has a, has a, uh, what is it? A mascot. And they've had one. It's a bulldog. And yeah, the mascot,

• 1:19:35Jocko Willink?

  I think they're on number 17, but the mascot is named Chesty. And at boot camp, they sing, uh, "Goodnight Chesty, wherever you may be." That's what they do in Marine Corps boot camp. So this guy Chesty Puller, the most iconic Marine of all time. And he had a son. And his son was, uh, not quite cut from the same cloth as his dad. You know, his dad was this kind of gruff guy and the son was sort of a more mild guy. He wore glasses. He went to college. He, uh, was just more of a cerebral type guy. And he gets done with college and he's not really sure what he's gonna do with his life. So he decides, well, you know, my dad was in the Marine Corps, I'll go join the Marine Corps. So he goes to join the Marine

• 1:20:20Jocko Willink?

  Corps. He can barely get in because his gla- his eyesight's bad. The people that are looking at his application are like, wait a second. This says Louis Puller Jr. Are you Chesty Puller's son? He's like, yep, but we, we can get you in. So he gets in the Marine Corps, goes through Officer Candidate School, goes to the basic school, and then it's 1968. So he goes to Vietnam. And when he gets to Vietnam, um, going on rotations in these three different spots and eventually goes on an operation and he steps on a landmine, gets severely wounded.

• 1:20:58Jocko Willink?

  He loses both of his legs. He loses a bunch of his fingers and dexterity in his hands. Almost dies. I mean, it's just a miracle that they were able to keep him alive and he, he, he does stay alive. Um, comes back to America, you know, devastating for his dad. The great iconic marine hero is breaking down when he sees his son. Chesty Puller, um, Louis Puller, you know, eventually recovered from his wounds and uh, wrote a, wrote a book called Fortunate Son, which is an incredible book and, and

• 1:21:39Jocko Willink?

  sort of, you know, he was, he'd gone down the path of alcohol and being an alcoholic and all this and, and um, eventually comes out of that, writes this book, the book gets published and in 1994, he fell out of his wheelchair, injured himself, went back in the hospital. Um, they put him on painkillers. He got addicted to painkillers again and, and he killed himself. And what was, when I, when I did this series of podcasts about this, what was crazy was

• 1:22:17Jocko Willink?

  every single marine, every single marine, 100% knows who Chesty Puller is, but a vast majority of Marines that I talked to as that podcast was coming out, did not know the story of his son. And it seems like the perfect way to educate people about the hardships that people face when they come home from war and they, you know, obviously Louis Puller had a multitude of hardships as well. But it seems like the education that we receive and not just us in the military, but then the families, that there's things, hey, this is what we need to be looking out for.

• 1:23:05Jocko Willink?

  And it it seems like if you're if you now are looking back at pictures to be able to say, "Man, I see this. I remember this." These are the kind of things, is this like like part of the things that you're trying to share now? So that people have better education about this kind of stuff?

• 1:23:23Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh, yes. Yes. And again, I'm no scientist. I'm no doctor. I don't have a research under my belt, but I have when I've lived. And sitting in my chair, having been with this person for so long, you know, we we I didn't just like meet a teen guy and then we got married and that's not to bust on anybody that did. But, you know, I've I've known him almost his entire life. And then to watch him through his career and then to lose him in this way. I didn't see all these signs and symptoms prior. I think if Chad, I want to believe that if Chad thought something was wrong with him,

• 1:24:08Speaker 01

  that he was probably trying to hide it from me. I have other girlfriends, widows, whose husbands took their life. And they have said that their husbands expressed to them the struggle they were having and what they were thinking about and, you know, their signs and symptoms. And I didn't have that. And it's not going to be the same for everybody. We're humans. We're all different. Biological DNA, it might express itself differently. But if we could maybe educate people a little bit more about the toll your service takes. And um, and to know that even if you're not killed in action or killed in training, or you don't die by suicide,

• 1:24:52Speaker 01

  but you've led a very active career, you are going to be impacted some more than others. And let's really have a conversation about what you might see and when is it going to be really, when is it really a problem?

• 1:25:11Jocko Willink?

  So as these deployments are adding up for Chad, I mean, is when he's coming home, is it, are you, what, what, what is the kind of things you're noticing?

• 1:25:21Speaker 01

  Uh, well, that he's, he was always super quiet guy, um, never the loudest guy in the room.

• 1:25:31Speaker 01

  Reserved, but as time goes on, he's even less. And when we first, you know, a teammate, we hung out with people and had friends. And when we first got to the command, we did that too. And then over time, we just didn't, we didn't do social things. I mean, we almost never, ever had anyone over to our house, ever. He never wanted anybody in our house.

• 1:25:53Speaker 01

  He, he, and he says he likes to be home. He liked to be home with the kids and I, kind of what you mentioned. He's like, I'm with those dudes all the time. Like, I don't need to go hang out with them because I've just spent, you know, a rut trip in Chicago with him and I'm home now. But it, it, what got really bad right away was his sleep. And I, I think that that's true for a lot of the guys is that, you know, sleep is so valued and it's, if you think of your body, I like to think of it as a computer. And if you don't turn the computer down every once in a while and reboot it, it gets jacked up, right? Doesn't run well. And that's what sleep provides all of us every single night.

• 1:26:32Speaker 01

  And if you've got a guy who has, his body hurts, I mean, Chad fell off of a ladder, pretty high up and jacked his back up. He messed his neck up off of a couple landings that he did. He was in a helicopter crash in 98.

• 1:26:50Speaker 01

  So, you know, I mean, his body, he, and I say this because I know so many of the guys are like really broken and, and, and he's probably the least of it in terms of broken bones and this and that. But his body was beat up as most of them are. And then you add on top of that, just the mental strain of war. Just deployments, you know, sleeping over in some shitty ass village compound. You know, you're listening to blasts coming in, uh, the, the high cycle of just like missions, going out, going out, going out, okay? Being away from your family and, and even though I didn't call my husband and say, hey, this is broken or I need this, maybe, maybe that's how other spouses communicate.

• 1:27:35Speaker 01

  So now there might be stress because They got shit going on back home with their family and so let's all add all that on to it. And now let's add, at least for our special operators, the whole blast injury concept. And the guys that have spent time, and I'm going to talk teams because that's what I know, but time in the teams, the last 10 to 20 years, they 100% in my opinion are affected by blast injury. Because it comes from them breaching doors, which they do, not just overseas but in training, you know, helos, RPGs, all that. And that constant impact to the brain is terrible.

• 1:28:19Speaker 01

  It's terrible. And so you add all this stuff this guy's gone through and he can't sleep? He can't get a good night's sleep. So there's nothing helping him for his body to at least try to recover something. So his sleep went down bad.

• 1:28:36Jocko Willink?

  Is he seeing doctors or anything? Is he talking to anybody about trying to get sleep? I mean, sometimes, you know, at some points, they were giving away like the sleep potions like it was nothing.

• 1:28:46Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. I mean, he did, he tried to do a lot of his own stuff, just like normal, regular remedy stuff and better sleep hygiene. And then he was diagnosed with sleep apnea, which a lot of them have. So they have a CPAP machine. I mean, why are there dudes in their 30s and 40s with sleep apnea? Isn't that weird? And then, and you know, and then what you also see in these guys is they get low testosterone. And because of, you know, their adrenal glands are jacked up, their cortisol levels are jacked up. And so their testosterone is jacked up. And I don't know how many of them are really willing to talk about it, but I think there's a really large number

• 1:29:26Speaker 01

  of dudes in special operations that are in their 30s that are on testosterone. And they're not, I can't speak for everyone. I mean, I don't think they're on it for like, they necessarily want to be jacked. They're on it because their T's really low. And that's needed, you know?

• 1:29:45Speaker 01

  I get fired up.

• 1:29:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, so, so you're seeing all this stuff. Is there, is there a point where you start like trying to intervene yourself? Or is Chad just like, you know, again, I'm comparing this to my experience. Like, I would never, my wife didn't know if there was anything going on. Like, if bad things were happening at work, my wife would not know.

• 1:30:07Speaker 01

  Well, and this is where like regret comes in and just kind of guilt, a lot of guilt.

• 1:30:17Speaker 01

  Because it's really easy to sit here now and list all the things I could have done to be a better wife.

• 1:30:25Speaker 01

  But at the time, I...

• 1:30:34Speaker 01

  Chad and I, Chad and I are both the type of people that we want to work really hard at what we do. And we want to be really, really freaking good at it. And being married to him, while there are spouses and they choose to, to whatever their route. Maybe they work, maybe they stay home with their kids, everybody gets a choice, right? And my choice was to work and go this whole fitness, CrossFit path. So when you're married to someone who's a Navy SEAL and does all these awesome things and gets these awards, I was super proud of him, but I also wanted my own identity and I wanted my own success. And, and a lot of that driving force, truthfully, was always because I wanted him to be proud of me.

• 1:31:18Speaker 01

  And so he's working hard in the teams and I'm working really hard on this whole CrossFit side. And I, I don't think it's that I didn't want to intervene. I just kind of thought we both were almost like handling our shit. If that's fair to say, like, okay, you're working, you're busy, you know, you're moving up.

• 1:31:42Speaker 01

  You know, within your troop and squadron and the whole thing. And, and I'm doing it over here and then we come home and we take care of our kids. And I guess I just didn't take enough responsibility for that.

• 1:32:03Jocko Willink?

  Is there, is there some point where you say, okay, this was sort of,

• 1:32:09Jocko Willink?

  where you, you said, you said when you were looking through pictures, you said two years before he died, you were like, yeah, I look back now and that, this is a time period where there was definitely, he, he was, you know, over the edge.

• 1:32:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, he, he really got a shorter fuse, for sure. And it generally wasn't with me. It, it tended to be more with our kids. He would just snap, which was really out of character for him and

• 1:32:38Speaker 01

  he would not listen. And I think a lot of spouses say, you know, my husband doesn't listen to me or my wife doesn't listen to me when I'm talking, but he, it, it's like he had no idea I was talking to him and I'd be sitting right next to him and

• 1:32:56Speaker 01

  I've shared this story before, but I think it really says something that he, I said, Chad, you never listen to me. Like, just look at me. I need you to look at me and I need you to focus. And he said, you know what? When you talk to me, I have to look around and think, well, that's not going to kill me and that's not going to kill me. And I remember thinking, that's so weird.

• 1:33:20Speaker 01

  But now, I realize if you're kind of in this hyper state and you don't have a way to get out of it, you go on deployment and you kind of have to stay on point, right? Head's always on a swivel, even maybe when you're in bed, you gotta be ready for the next thing. How do you turn that off when you come home? I, I'm not sure. I'm not sure they've really figured that out. So they come home and they're still kind of like overloaded.

• 1:33:45Jocko Willink?

  And, and that's something that you noticed because you were talking to him and he's like not responding and?

• 1:33:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and in the pictures, two years prior in the pictures, when I look at it, he just had a completely different look on his face. It was almost like, like in pictures, it was almost like, I'm gonna kill you. You know, like that whole like,

• 1:34:06Speaker 01

  It just, it's just not like him.

• 1:34:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's the, the interesting thing that you pointed out is like you've known him since he was whatever 15.

• 1:34:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:16Jocko Willink?

  And so you see this entire arc of a human, whereas you know, if you, if you cut out, if you met him in 2010, you, you would see this much smaller picture that maybe wouldn't paint such a dramatic change in the way he, in, in his character and the way he acted, right? But you saw him since he was 15 years old. And, you know, um, and then you see this, this whole story play out and so it becomes real clear. They're also being said,

• 1:34:49Jocko Willink?

  since you're with him every day, you know, you're, you're, you're around him all the time. So there's also that, that thing where, you know, you don't notice that someone, you know, like you don't notice that my hair is going gray, right? Because like my wife doesn't, she might notice it now, but you know, over time she's like, oh, your hair went gray today. Right? It's like, it happens gradually over time. And so there's some of that I'm sure at play too, where, you know, one deployment, there's three degrees of change, right? The next deployment, there's four degrees of change. The next deployment, there's five degrees of change. Okay. So you look up in six deployments and that little bit each time, you might not notice it so dramatically, but from the, the, the amount that he's on a different course mentally is dramatic.

• 1:35:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and I, I tried to take it back through chunks of our life and didn't go back as far as our childhood, but more like when we were at team eight, how he was with his fellow team guys and peers and the way that we interacted with them. And then when we got out of the military, the way that he was and, you know, we had friends and did all the things normal couples and families do. And then coming back and, and then being at the command for the first couple of years, it was that way. And then slowly he just did less and less socially. He was a little more cut off. And then as it got farther along, he just was a little quieter.

• 1:36:14Speaker 01

  And, you know, the last year or two of his life, I'm, it's sad. I'm like, gosh, I don't even know how much he smiled.

• 1:36:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:27Jocko Willink?

  And no, um,

• 1:36:31Jocko Willink?

  Know, know him saying like, "Hey, I gotta talk to somebody."

• 1:36:35Speaker 01

  No. No.

• 1:36:46Jocko Willink?

  Which, um, and I mean, I'm guessing it's changing now, but I mean, that's the culture from BUDs, from basic SEAL training, "Don't go to medical." Right? "Don't go to medical, don't talk to anybody. If you've got a stress fracture in your leg, let it break. Don't go to medical. Hobble around as long as you can." Don't, like, that's, and again, it's not like anybody tells you. Of course, what do the instructors say? "Yep, go to medical, check in if you've got, if you're feeling..." But the, the culture is, and it's the same in every unit. It's, it's every unit's like this. I mean, and it's special operates every unit. It's every unit in the military. Suck it up. Don't say anything. Don't go to medical. Hand, like you said, handle your shit.

• 1:37:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think the guys are just too... I, I, I don't know what they think. I don't know if they think, "Maybe this is just me. Like, what's up with me? Am I fucked up? I don't want to tell my buddies I'm, might be a little fucked up." Or, they don't want to hurt their service, or they just want to ignore it and hope it'll go away. They think they'll just, like, muscle through it. I, I don't know what they think. But somehow, we need to shift the needle a little bit to recognize,

• 1:38:16Speaker 01

  you do all this training. I mean, millions of dollars are spent on these guys, you guys, to train. Millions of dollars. And, and, you know, I mean, Chad was a sniper and free fall jump master and, you know, name all the things. And you took the time to teach them that.

• 1:38:35Speaker 01

  So why wouldn't you take the time to also teach them about maybe some ways that they're going to be potentially impacted after multiple years of service? It's 2021 and right now, what we're about to see are people that have served their entire career post 9/11. So this suicide epidemic, it is not going away, it's only ramping up.

• 1:39:01Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you know, when I, when I kind of started off talking about this, that, that's the connection that I made is I was like, listening to your story, hearing it, is, you know, we've made all these developments and all these different wars from the problems that the wars cause, right? And yet, and I didn't even talk about like the, like these current wars, the prosthetics, you see the prosthetics that people have now, they're amazing, you know? They can do all these incredible things and we make these massive advancements and yet this is just like over here in this dark corner, not, not really being addressed. Now, I, I take that back, there is, there, there are things that are happening now that they are starting to address.

• 1:39:44Jocko Willink?

  I know that they're doing like baseline studies of guys, I don't know what you know about this stuff, Jason, but they're doing like baseline studies, uh, brain studies on guys so they can kind of tell where they're at, so they can see what kind of impact they've had over, over time. So I think maybe it is starting to come to light a little bit now, uh, but certainly I don't think the culture has a big change to it yet, because, I mean, it's hard, it takes, it takes time and effort to change culture.

• 1:40:12Speaker 01

  It would crush the recruitment process, wouldn't it? We've known for years because of history and wars, that when you go serve your country, there's a likelihood you could die. You're, you're choosing to serve and die potentially by your flag, but it would really crush recruitment if, insert Army, Navy, whoever, and you say, hey, you want to be a SEAL? You want to be a Green Beret? You want to be a, and you say, you're going to come, you're going to do your service, you're going to do cool shit, you're going to jump out of airplanes, you're going to shoot guns, and you're going to kill bad guys. And if you make it, by the end of it, you might also have some pretty severe mental health issues and some brain injury. Are you good with that?

• 1:40:58Speaker 01

  You know, it's hard for them to pony up and say that because, oh man, is that gonna crush our number?

• 1:41:05Speaker 02

  I think people would still show up for that. I mean, it's like, cause everybody, when you, when you do this, you're, you're like, well, that's not gonna happen to me.

• 1:41:13Speaker 01

  Oh, I know. I mean, I, I

• 1:41:16Speaker 02

  Other guys, not me.

• 1:41:19Speaker 01

  I, I did the CAECO form before every deployment and I was fully

• 1:41:25Speaker 01

  prepared as you can be as a spouse in the world we were living in. I mean, we attended many funerals in those last 10 years. That my husband might not come home. And if he doesn't come home, he's gonna come home in a coffin with the flag over it.

• 1:41:42Speaker 01

  That's not what I got.

• 1:42:00Speaker 02

  So where does it, where does it go towards, towards the end? What are you seeing towards the end?

• 1:42:08Speaker 01

  One of the biggest things was, well, he started putting on weight and, you know, he would joke because he was over 40 and he's like, you don't love me anymore. Cause I'm getting heavy, which would never be the case. But, um, he started putting on weight. But what really started to happen and, and pretty drastically, I would say the last six months that I can look back now, is he got really puffy. His face got puffy, almost like, this sounds terrible, like, have you ever seen a fish in water? It's dead and it's kind of like bloated. That's how his face got. And, um,

• 1:42:46Speaker 01

  and I, he also, as weird as this is, I would always kind of kiss him on his temple and he didn't smell the same. And I thought, oh, that's weird. Well, I've learned since then, a lot more about the way the brain's affected. And to go back to that kind of

• 1:43:09Speaker 01

  Systemic derailment. When you have a blast injury, you know, it's a wave, right? It goes through the air and basically your brain shakes up inside your skull and that's what it's built to do. That's why we have a skull and that's how it's made, but it's not made to get that over and over again. So when that happens and there's swelling in the brain, it then starts to affect everything else because the brain is connected to the rest of your body and you see where not only hormones get derailed, but you know, your metabolism gets jacked up. So the guys start to gain weight and when your metabolism gets jacked up, it also messes with the ketones in your body, which would be like, you know,

• 1:43:54Speaker 01

  factoring in with your urine and different things and that's what changes the way they smell. And the puffiness is because, well, sure, if he's got brain injury and there's any swelling or there's just systemic swelling in the body, it's got to go somewhere. And so we start to notice it in the face. And again, I didn't know any of this stuff prior. And that's not to say someone listening, you're sitting there and you look over at your husband, you're like, my husband's face is puffy. But there's something to be said that PTSD is a genuine thing, I believe. I also believe it's overused a lot. And this

• 1:44:36Speaker 01

  is a whole step further than PTSD.

• 1:44:41Jocko Willink?

  Well, and also you're talking about it's not just, hey, your face is puffy. We have an issue. No, it's this, this, this, this, this. You add all these things together and you get that many red flags.

• 1:44:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:55Jocko Willink?

  Then that's, you know, you've got the being short tempered, you've got the, hey, you smell different. Hey, you're not talking. Hey, you know, you're not working out as much as you used to. You just start adding all these red flags together and it's like, okay, you know, we have to address this.

• 1:45:14Speaker 01

  Well, and When you think about the different parts of the brain, you've got your limbic brain, your monkey brain, deep inside, that's what tells you what's safe. Is this dangerous? This is why we don't walk into the street, right? We know that's dangerous. The prefrontal cortex kind of is, hmm, how do I feel about that? So if the brain is affected, that's when we see them, you know, the short fuse, how do I feel? I'm angry, I'm aggressive, maybe I'm sad, different emotions. But when it's brain injury, and we've heard CTE, right? Punch drunk NFL players, our guys get it too. Our guys are getting interface astroglycous scarring.

• 1:45:56Speaker 01

  And that's almost like, think of like a ricochet, almost bullets through the brain. And that's what comes from the blast injury. And that's able to penetrate that deep monkey brain of like, is this safe for me? That's why guys make decisions that are really, really bad. Whether it's, you know, drinking too much, infidelity, or, you know, I have a friend who, he's good now, but he

• 1:46:29Speaker 01

  had his daughter in the car and had been drinking and was speeding well far above the speed limit. Any father would know, none of that is good. But he wasn't able to make the right decision. So...

• 1:46:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I started to see, looking back, I can see how he had changed. And I've shared with Jason too, Chad climbed Mount Aconcagua in January of 2018. And that's the second highest summit in the world. It's the highest in South America, it's in Argentina. And he went and climbed this, it's a little over 23,000 feet. And I will never know, but I do believe that him climbing that mountain exacerbated any of his brain injuries that he had.

• 1:47:31Speaker 01

  And I've since talked to

• 1:47:36Speaker 01

  a doctor who I respect highly. She's been studying blast injuries in Kosovo soldiers since the early 90s, or at least that's who she started with. And I asked her about that and she, you know, again, she didn't test Chad's brain, but she was pretty confident that that was probably the case too.

• 1:47:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I mean, how long was that? That's gotta be a couple of weeks at least of an evolution.

• 1:48:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:48:01Jocko Willink?

  And it's a lack of O2, highly strenuous.

• 1:48:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so now you've got this brain that's injured. What encourages healing in the body? Blood? Blood flow, right? You have surgery. Okay, cool. Knee surgery. Once you get up, we want you to move your knee because we gotta get blood flow to it because we want it to heal, right? Brain's injured. Wait, now I'm gonna go up 23,000 feet and I'm gonna be without oxygen. It really needs to heal itself.

• 1:48:27Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, one of my, um, the guys go through the hyperbaric chamber, right? Which is just O2, pressure, O2. It's the opposite of climbing a 23,000 foot mountain and it provides a lot of healing. A lot of healing to guys. So to have, to do the opposite of that, I mean, it seems...

• 1:48:46Speaker 01

  I asked her about that and she said, I said, is that something that would help? And she said, yes, but not initially after injury? I mean, we're talking different things because you're talking about guys have been back for a while. And we do see people who have a little bit exacerbated symptoms at a higher elevation. My best friend's husband, they live in Colorado. And I said to this doctor, I said, what would you say if there was a 20-year Navy SEAL veteran who's done upwards of probably 10 deployments? Without a doubt, probably does have some, some brain blast injury

• 1:49:28Speaker 01

  and lives at 8,000 to 10,000 feet. And before I could even finish the sentence, she just shook her head, no, no. She just kept shaking her head, no. And she said, bad, bad, very bad. I'd tell him to move.

• 1:49:41Jocko Willink?

  What was Chad's like debrief points on the on the mountain climb? What'd he say about it?

• 1:49:49Speaker 01

  He said it was really hard, really hard.

• 1:49:55Speaker 01

  I think he was really proud of himself for doing it. But when he came home and walked in the door, I mean, he was so skinny. Just, you know.

• 1:50:04Jocko Willink?

  What, did he lose fifteen, twenty pounds?

• 1:50:06Speaker 01

  Probably. And he came in and he just said, baby, that was that was really fricking hard. And I just didn't really ever hear him say that about anything. And I was like, oh, well, you did it, you know, good job. And he said, Denali's next.

• 1:50:25Speaker 01

  And that was his plan.

• 1:50:28Jocko Willink?

  And when was that? That was in January of two thousand eighteen?

• 1:50:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:33Jocko Willink?

  And how about the interactions like with the kids at this point? The family like? Is it? Are you noticing more? Is it is it plateaued out?

• 1:50:44Speaker 01

  Um, well, at this point, it's we have teenagers. And I remember saying to him, they don't even want to like hang out with us or be home or anything. And he's like, I didn't want to hang out with my parents when I was fourteen, seventeen.

• 1:51:01Speaker 01

  We did take a family trip that June of two thousand eighteen. We went to the Grand Canyon. And again, I look back at those pictures and he definitely was not there. Like, he wasn't on the trip. You know what I mean? He he was obviously there, but

• 1:51:22Speaker 01

  we we stayed in a couple of different cities. We kind of jumped around Arizona for a while and, you know, we're staying in this really nice hotel. And he didn't want to leave the room. You know, granted, it's June in Arizona, so it is very, very hot. But, you know, he didn't really want to come down to the pool. He just wanted to sit in the room. And you're like, OK, but we're on a family vacation. And, um, one time he was sitting down by the pool and I saw him from a distance. And he just was kind of like leaned over in the chair, just like zoning out. Just he was just not there. And I said, hey, I walked up, I said, hey, what are you doing? And he's like, nothing.

• 1:52:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, just things like that. He just wasn't.

• 1:52:06Speaker 01

  I don't know what he was thinking about.

• 1:52:19Jocko Willink?

  So where's it go from there?

• 1:52:22Speaker 01

  Well, and in the timeline?

• 1:52:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, so he, um.

• 1:52:29Speaker 01

  He, ah, this year in two thousand and eighteen, I think, is when it started. He switched squadrons. So he was moving around within the command and he.

• 1:52:44Speaker 01

  He had said that he didn't think that this is what he was supposed to be doing. I remember him saying, I just, I don't think this is right. I don't think this is really the path I'm supposed to be on. And again, he didn't really share a lot with me. And he, and I said, well, you're someone who's always accomplished every goal you've ever set for yourself. You make a goal, you go do it. So he had this goal for himself. He had, was in the process, I guess, of attaining the goal. And I said, maybe this is just the first time you change your mind. Like, you just don't want to do it. That's okay. You can, you can decide to change your mind. And he was like, well, they've spent so much time and, and money on, on doing this.

• 1:53:25Speaker 01

  And again, he didn't tell me any details. And he said, he goes, I know I'm not really telling you much, but it makes me feel good to talk about it. And I was like, okay, because if he's gonna talk, I'm gonna listen. And, um, yeah, so something was bugging him. And I don't, I don't know what, but something was really bugging him. And the beginning of October, he started hanging up his awards and things in the house, which he never did before. So we had, you know, like a lot of guys, all plaques and awards. And he has a Silver Star and an Navy Marine Corps Medal and a Bronze Star and all the things. And we had them all framed years ago, but he never hung them up.

• 1:54:10Speaker 01

  And he just thought it was really weird to hang that stuff up in your house. Because he said, what's, someone's gonna come in the house and it's just like, look at me. And I always thought that was weird that he had to struggle with that. But, yeah, he hung them up in our stairwell. To our house, so maybe like you and your wife, marriage is a compromise, right? And I thought, you know, almost no one comes in our house anyway. And if someone were to come in our house, only they way they would see him is if they went up our stairs, basically to our bedrooms. But in my mind, I just thought, well, at least he's hanging him up, so they're not going to get like broken or busted or anything and,

• 1:54:53Speaker 01

  he talked about hanging a Somali flag on one wall, which you would have seen when you come in the front door. And I just remember thinking, that's so weird. And I thought he was really messing with me. And when I turned around to kind of laugh, I realized he was serious. He was dead serious. And he's like, yeah, I guess that's dumb, huh? And I was like, well, maybe. I asked him if he was okay. I remembered kneeling down in front of him and I said, are you okay? And he said, yeah, I'm okay. But there, if there was any sort of, like first feeling, it was like,

• 1:55:36Speaker 01

  he is off. I would have never thought, three weeks later, he would take his life, but that's what happened. So, it's interesting, and while I won't share her story, I, my other girlfriend will tell you, who knew that her husband was struggling, about two months prior, there was just like a switch. Two months and he was gone. So for me, I think it was three weeks and he was gone. I think they just meet this like threshold and, and I don't know how we figure out where that is.

• 1:56:18Speaker 01

  That's going to be half to left to scientists. But, but there is some threshold that happens and then the switch is flipped.

• 1:56:31Jocko Willink?

  And is he still going to work? I mean, you kneel down in front of him. You say, are you okay? He says, yeah. Do you buy it?

• 1:56:41Jocko Willink?

  You want to buy it?

• 1:56:42Speaker 01

  I did buy it. And this, again, is one of those post-death struggles. When someone takes their life, you, military or not, you are left with so many questions. And I think that's, that's, that's the beast, to not have answers. And I believed him because there is nothing I didn't tell him.

• 1:57:11Speaker 01

  So I believed that if there was something he needed to tell me, he would tell me.

• 1:57:20Jocko Willink?

  And then he goes into work?

• 1:57:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. He went into work. He had a work trip the week before. This is when it gets really weird. So he had a work trip and he could drive there. And he was supposed to come home on a Friday. And he called me on a Thursday. They had used rental cars to go up there. And he said, hey, I'm coming home early. Can you pick me up from the rental car place, wherever? And I was like, oh, okay. And pick him up. He...

• 1:57:52Speaker 01

  We had to take her... I had to go get my son from a football game. So I drive him back home and he instantly comes in the house. So Chad had been doing, had a concealed carry license. And he'd been rolling with a concealed carry, you know, when he's home around town for probably the last year or two. And again, I didn't really think much of it because, I mean, well, crap, he's a team guy and this is America. So we come home and he instantly goes to the safe and gets his gun. And I said, it was just kind of frantic. And I said, you realize that we're going on a school to pick up Hudson? He said, I'm not getting out of the car. And it was very, like, short. And I was like, okay. So we go, no big deal.

• 1:58:37Speaker 01

  And the whole time he's in the seat, he's just like,

• 1:58:41Speaker 01

  he just seemed uncomfortable. I learned later that, and I don't know any details of whatever he was doing, but he was in a course and he withdrew from the course.

• 1:58:56Speaker 01

  He never quit anything. He never like stepped down from anything I'd ever known. So that conversation about, I'm not sure I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing. That came later that night when he got home and um. This was on a Thursday and on Friday I had to leave to go. I was working down in Raleigh. I could drive there for a seminar.

• 1:59:23Jocko Willink?

  A CrossFit seminar.

• 1:59:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, and we talked about it um that he needed to call his doctor because he felt like he just needed to check in, like maybe his testosterone was off, maybe he's something. He's like he wasn't feeling good. Earlier that week, he told me that he had some headaches and like some stomach aches. He had said he didn't feel good, which again Chad never said. I mean, I don't know if ever he said, I don't feel good. I mean, he didn't say it like that, but he would never say that to me, but he did. He didn't feel good. And so the deal was when I left, he was gonna make an appointment with his doctor and he was gonna make an appointment to talk to his boss about whatever his work situation was to try to figure out what his path is gonna be.

• 2:00:03Speaker 01

  And I left, I told our kids, hey, you know, dad's kind of stressed out, just, just so you know, he's got a lot on his plate right now. And when I left, I'm leaving Virginia Beach and I just had this like gut and like pit in my stomach, like I just felt like I shouldn't be leaving him.

• 2:00:25Speaker 01

  But I did and went to Raleigh, worked, talked to him on Saturday.

• 2:00:32Speaker 01

  And on Sunday, Kinsley called and and said that dad's acting really weird and he's just laying on the landing and he's just staring at the ceiling. And I just, I just, that's just weird. That's just weird and um I was four hours away and I had to work still a full seminar and I just knew I had to get home, so the seminar finishes and.

• 2:01:06Speaker 01

  Um, I get in the car as quick as I can and, and try to race home and he called me at one point and he just said, "I love you." And I kinda laughed and I said, "Oh, I love you too." And he's like, "No, I mean, I really love you. I love you so much. I love you so much, Sarah." And he knew I loved it when he would say my name. And I said, "You know, I love you too, but can I call you back? I have a really bad headache." And honestly, I was just really trying to get home. So, fast forward a couple hours later, I get home and I go in the house and he's upstairs and he's rummaging below the bed for something and I come in and he turns to me and um, I hug him and

• 2:01:52Speaker 01

  kiss him and he kinda just like, like

• 2:01:58Speaker 01

  collapses in my arms a little bit, so I just hug him for a second and I, I just think in my mind, "Well, I'm home now, so I'm near you and I'm gonna try to just..." I didn't think at the time that I needed to necessarily keep you safe. I thought I just had to keep you close and, and make you feel better. And so I got, I had to get a shower and I said, "Come talk to me while I'm in the shower." And when, when I went around in the bathroom to start the shower, he wasn't right behind me and I looked out the door and he had just like collapsed like face first on the bed, kinda like the letter T, like arms out to the side, his head to the side, like, like just exhaustion. And I said, "What, what are you doing? Come on, come in."

• 2:02:42Speaker 01

  And so I get in the shower and he's sitting on the bathtub and he's just had been over and he's got his hands on either side of his head and he's holding his hair. And he's kinda like gripping his hair and I kept saying, "What's wrong? You know, what's going on and you gotta talk to me?" And he just kept saying, "I don't know."

• 2:03:05Speaker 01

  Anyway, I asked him to pass me a towel and he looked at me and he, he was not.

• 2:03:14Speaker 01

  He wasn't there. His eyes were just like, I was just like looking straight through his eyes. And I just laid down with him in bed and I just thought if I could keep him next to me then then he would feel better.

• 2:03:30Speaker 01

  But that wasn't the case, so.

• 2:03:34Speaker 01

  I woke up in the middle of the night and he was standing there dressed, uh, looking out the window and I said, what are you doing? And he just said, I don't know. I said, well, come lay back in bed with me. And he did and um, the next morning, early, I woke up, I, I woke up to see just him walking out the door. I saw like the back of his shoulder leave, leave. Uh, and I, I, it was, it's like I couldn't talk. It was like I couldn't get up. I don't know if it's just because I was sleepy or what, or I wasn't really processing like, oh, he's leaving right now. And then I couldn't find him.

• 2:04:20Speaker 01

  So I, I woke up, you know, a little while later and he, he, I couldn't find him. So

• 2:04:27Speaker 01

  I looked around and I thought, well, maybe he went for a walk. Maybe he went for a run. Maybe he went to go get coffee. I tried calling him. He didn't answer. I text him. He didn't answer. Um, and went round in my head, trying, trying to figure out where he could be. I got in my car at one point and I thought I'll drive around and then I thought, where am I, where, literally, like which direction would I drive? What's happening? Thought, well, did he leave for work? He was supposed to leave on a work trip. But I figured he was also going to talk to his boss, so you know, did he go to work? I just didn't know. I called his dad. Um, but because he was so weird the night before, I just thought it was weird that he left and he didn't say bye. He never didn't not kiss me goodbye, never.

• 2:05:11Speaker 01

  He actually would do this. I'd be upstairs and he'd say, okay, bye, I'll see you later. And he would slam a door in the house just to see me run down furiously down the steps because he knew I would get so spun up if he left and didn't kiss me goodbye.

• 2:05:28Speaker 01

  So.

• 2:05:33Speaker 01

  I don't know what I was thinking. I just know I wanted, I just wanted confirmation of where he was. And I finally called the command. And I talked to the psych there and

• 2:05:49Speaker 01

  she asked me a bunch of questions.

• 2:05:53Speaker 01

  One of the questions she asked was, how does he feel about? And he asked, he said Chad's boss's name. And I thought that was a really weird question.

• 2:06:06Speaker 01

  Because another thing I really loved about Chad is, is he really never said anything bad about people. So, you know, if he liked you or didn't like you, I, I didn't really know. He just, that's, that's how he walked. And I was like, I have no idea.

• 2:06:23Speaker 01

  But she,

• 2:06:26Speaker 01

  she just kind of let me think he's on his way to work, you know, like he's probably left and is on this training trip. And a little while later, I, I had talked to her again and I said, you know, everything's here. His toothbrush is here. His medicine is here. His sunglasses are here. He wouldn't leave with all that stuff. And she told me, um, due to the privacy of his job, it would be likely that he wouldn't be answering his cellphone.

• 2:06:53Speaker 01

  And I said, okay. So, like the wife that I was, I kind of just thought, okay, so he must have gone, and it was, it was a driving trip up the coast a little bit. So I thought, okay, he was supposed to be back the next day. And

• 2:07:11Speaker 01

  so

• 2:07:13Speaker 01

  I think about that and my kids came home from school that day and they said, where's dad? And I said, oh, I, I don't know. I think he left on this work trip. He should be home tomorrow. And I'm saying that almost feeling like I'm lying because I don't believe it. But I'm trying to believe it because that's what I was told and, and why wouldn't you? Right?

• 2:07:38Speaker 01

  So this point, you know, he disappears Monday morning, probably, I'm saying, somewhere between 3:00 and 6:00 a.m. And Monday goes by, we started demolition on our house. We were doing renovations. That started that day. And Tuesday comes, and I went, my house sits near a lake. You can see it from my front porch, and I went for a run. And, and, and this is why I'm sharing it, it'll make sense in a minute. But I, I went for a run, and I ran past the lake, down the bike path, all around. And I was gonna sit at the lake for a minute. It's the end of October, it's Virginia Beach. The weather, the weather was really beautiful that day. I was gonna sit on the bench at that lake, but I didn't,

• 2:08:22Speaker 01

  because I wanted to go inside and shower, and like curl my hair and look nice for when he got home. So I did that, and dropped my son off at a friend's house. He's going to play, going to a football game. And as I was pulling back in, a psych from work called and said, "Ma'am, your husband didn't report to muster. Um, we're heightening the alert." And I said, "That's bad. That's bad. That's very bad." And I'm pretty sure I hung up the phone on him. And when I got out of my car, so now where my car was, it's um, in this cul-de-sac nearby, and, and, and it's facing that lake. And my house is on the left, and as I'm walking up to my house,

• 2:09:05Speaker 01

  the head contractor for the renovations comes out, and he says, "Miss Sarah, there's two police officers at your back door." I, I called my best friend Courtney. Her husband and my husband were in buds together. And I said, "You need to come to my house right now." And I just hung up the phone. And...

• 2:09:34Speaker 03

  I didn't know what was going on. I just thought something is like, seriously. And I went in my front door and out my back door, the way the house is, and there were two cops in my garage and they were... We stood outside the door and they said, "Ma'am, do you know where your husband is?" And I said, "No, I can't find him and I haven't been able to find him." And I asked them if they could move farther down into the street because we were right underneath my daughter's window and I knew that she was upstairs. And I just didn't want her to be... I just didn't know what was happening.

• 2:10:10Speaker 03

  So we moved out into the street and

• 2:10:18Speaker 03

  this cop just opens his door and he digs something out of his car and he just turned me and he said, "Ma'am, I'm really sorry to tell you, but we found your husband and he took his life."

• 2:10:36Speaker 03

  And I was all alone.

• 2:10:42Speaker 03

  So

• 2:10:46Speaker 03

  around about that time, Courtney pulled up.

• 2:10:51Speaker 03

  Sorry.

• 2:10:54Speaker 03

  I'm sorry.

• 2:10:59Speaker 03

  Courtney pulled up and I think I was screaming and she bear hugged me from behind and I think I pretty much took her to the ground, I think.

• 2:11:10Speaker 03

  And she said, "You don't know that." So she screamed at him, "You don't know that."

• 2:11:17Speaker 03

  Well, he'd taken his life at that lake. And he could see our house from where he was.

• 2:11:24Speaker 03

  At least that's what they tell me.

• 2:11:30Speaker 03

  So

• 2:11:33Speaker 03

  my daughter's upstairs in her room by herself and she can see and hear everything.

• 2:11:40Speaker 03

  And my son is at a friend's house. And I'm pretty sure my neighbor went to pick him up.

• 2:11:47Speaker 03

  So he told my son. So

• 2:11:58Speaker 01

  I, you have to understand, like, logistically speaking, there's a lot of things that just don't make sense.

• 2:12:12Speaker 01

  Where my car was, when I got out of it, and that guy said the cops were at the back door.

• 2:12:20Speaker 01

  If they had just found his body, I didn't see anybody over by that lake.

• 2:12:30Speaker 01

  It had been like thirty-six hours since I couldn't find him.

• 2:12:37Speaker 01

  We went back later.

• 2:12:41Speaker 01

  And, and I, and I do think he was at the lake, and this is why. We went back later, and in our neighborhood, so many people have cameras on their house. And there's footage of Chad. And the bike path that lines that lake, uh, if you walk to it, it kind of tees, and if you go left, it takes you all the way up to the main road that cars go in and out of the neighborhood. And I think we've, we timed it so that

• 2:13:13Speaker 01

  cameras caught him walking that way. And that would have been right at the same time he would have watched our kids leave for school.

• 2:13:27Speaker 01

  So.

• 2:13:30Jocko Willink?

  When, um,

• 2:13:34Jocko Willink?

  when, when this is happening, when this is getting like, when, when, when he leaves in the morning, and you, you start thinking like, where is he? Is there any part of your brain that's thinking he could kill himself?

• 2:13:48Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:13:50Speaker 01

  So. Well, I take that back.

• 2:13:55Speaker 01

  I did ask Chad's dad.

• 2:13:59Speaker 01

  I was trying to get into the safe.

• 2:14:05Speaker 01

  So I guess, I guess there was a part of me that did, but.

• 2:14:10Speaker 01

  This, he, this was a little farther on in the morning. So when I first couldn't find him, I just couldn't find him. And then after a while, I think it might've been his dad that said, have you checked the safe? And so it took me a minute to try to remember the combo. And I got in there and to my knowledge, all the guns were there.

• 2:14:32Speaker 01

  But apparently they weren't.

• 2:14:36Jocko Willink?

  I guess the reason I'm asking you that is because. I don't know, various conversations in my, I've had in my life with various people at various times. And the conversation is something like, you know.

• 2:14:51Jocko Willink?

  You know, that little exploration of. Wait, I'm worried about him. And then there'll be some kind of an explanation like. What do you mean? Well, I'm just worried like he might kill himself. And then the conversation is.

• 2:15:11Jocko Willink?

  He would never do that. Right? So that idea of we think we know, we think we know what someone's going through. We think we know what's going on in their heads. And I think that.

• 2:15:25Jocko Willink?

  We don't know, we don't always know. And. You know, like, um. He disappears, you know, like what, that's what I was just thinking, like, was that in your head of like, hey, you know what? He's, you know, he probably is going to see his parents or he's, you know, going to go freaking surfing or whatever he's going to do. But this crazy idea. That he might go kill himself. It seems so. Unbelievable, you know, um, for someone that's like, hey, he's been through whatever 10 deployments. He's done all this, he's done this, he's done that. We got kids, we got a house, we got all these things going on.

• 2:16:07Jocko Willink?

  All these good things going on in our lives. That's not a, that's not going to happen.

• 2:16:13Jocko Willink?

  And it seems like oftentimes, people are caught off guard by it. People are caught off guard. And I know you mentioned a couple of friends where there was real signs of, you know, hey, not things aren't going good for the individual. But all but a lot of times I hear it's like, you know, there's been some suicides in the SEAL community where there was no indication at all, at all, of any kind. And and it seems like we're conditioned to sort of not even think that it's a feasible thing.

• 2:16:57Speaker 01

  I guilt. I, you know, I I was just as bad as as the military makes the guys out to be because as I said in his funeral, to me, Chad was unbreakable. I mean, to me, he had done all these really amazing things in his life. He he's you know, he, everything he did, he did well. Everything he did and SEAL, you know, great

• 2:17:41Speaker 01

  ridiculous high GPA when he's going to night school and he has a wife and a baby and really good in sniper school and went and got his project manager license certification, all that in the business world and whatever, fill in the blank, climbing mountains, qualifying for the CrossFit Games, like insert whatever. He just was so unbreakable to me. And and I guess that's part of my, what I want people to recognize with your person is that they are there Navy SEALs, but at the end of the day, you're just dudes. You know, you're dudes and

• 2:18:24Speaker 01

  humans and with a heart and a conscience and dads and husbands and brothers and sons and not unbreakable.

• 2:18:43Jocko Willink?

  There's um, a book written by a guy named David Hackworth, who is a Vietnam, Korean War veteran. And one of the things that he talks about is the fact that like, people are different, right? And as you mentioned, people are different and some things impact different people, different ways. And he described like, there's a cup that people have and, and when it gets filled up with like, the stress and the trauma,

• 2:19:08Jocko Willink?

  once it overflows, like that's it. If you, if, if it overflows, that's it. Like you, you, that's it. And different people have different sized cups and some people got a freaking five gallon jug and some people got a teacup and, and everything in between. And I, I compare that to another, uh, war veteran, Dick Winters, who is the character of Band of Brothers. You ever seen that? But he's got a book about, about war as well. And his big thing was like, when that cup, they use a different metaphor, but when the cup starts to get filled up, you need to get the person out of the situation.

• 2:19:48Jocko Willink?

  And if you get them out of the situation, the cup like, the, the water will dissipate and it'll go back down and, and they can continue, they can go back, they can continue to perform their job. But same thing, if you let the cup overflow, then it, it's, it can't, you can't put the water back in there. You know, I, I always talk, when I talk to people about this kind of stuff, I talk about the check engine light in a car, right? If the check engine light comes on, you take it in for a service. You, you stop driving it. And as long as you take it in for a service and it gets some downtime and the engine cools and you put in fresh oil, whatever, the engine's gonna be okay. But if the check engine light comes on and you just keep running that engine,

• 2:20:34Jocko Willink?

  you're gonna burn that engine out and you, you'll destroy the engine. And you know, I think that all these things come into play and that's what makes this so difficult is everyone's just got a different sized cup and everyone's got a, you know, a different time that their check engine light comes on and how much it's going to take to get that thing cooled back down. And it makes it, it makes it so challenging to universally say, okay, well, here's the limitation that people have. So I think what you're doing, talking about how to identify that check engine light so people can see it. And then also trying to help people to recognize that you gotta kind of, you gotta do your best

• 2:21:18Jocko Willink?

  to see your own check engine light. And when that freaking thing comes on, you gotta do something about it. And if you don't do something about it, you're going to blow out the engine and then you're no good.

• 2:21:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. And as we've said a couple of times, that the guys don't want to worry the spouse, or I say spouse or first responder, like who's, who is your go-to person, right? They don't want to worry the spouse. But if I were to ask someone that was struggling right now, maybe they're sitting there and they're, they've thought about taking their life and they say, I don't want to bother my spouse. I don't, I, I would, it would be better for her if I wasn't here. And, and I can't speak to the relationships that people have. But sitting on this side of it, sorry, I'm like total crier today. He didn't even give me

• 2:22:12Speaker 01

  the chance to help him. That hurts. So it's, on one hand, you can say, well, he didn't want to burden you, you know, he, he just, he didn't want to cause you any worry. But I mean, look at where I am now. Did he not think that this wouldn't like devastate me forever? He didn't even give me the opportunity to like, try to help.

• 2:22:41Speaker 02

  You know, Jaco, the hard part comes in when you've got guys who you're bred not to talk about this stuff. You're just constantly bred. And the interesting part for me in this journey of learning Chad's story and my wife Emily and I getting to know Sarah and her family really well and going really into this issue is there's actually something that happens to your brain, right? This is not something where it's not like, oh, you know, I've just got this inexplicable weakness going on. Because that's what it is in the teams, right?

• 2:23:23Speaker 02

  It's like, oh, that dude's weak if he goes and does this. And, you know, but if you if you blow your back out, or if you, you know, you get shot, or if you do, you know, things that are acceptable injuries, you know, by just by team room standards of sorts, right? And the thing that's that it's like my best friend in basic training killed himself. And I didn't unpack that at all, right? I mean, his dad was a general. And that was something that in my training, it's just, you know, I couldn't sit and think about this at all. It's like Days of Thunder, right? When, you know, Cole gets, Tom Cruise gets injured, right?

• 2:24:08Speaker 02

  I mean, the injured driver goes way over there and nobody ever wants to be around them. And for me personally, I had to just kind of take that and say, all right, I have a job to do and he was weak. Good friend of mine and he just that's that can happen to him. And there's something, what I told myself was, there's something that he was born with that made him do that. And this just kind of brought it to life. And when you hear Chad's story, if you think that, you didn't hear the story. Because, you know, that's the word of caution to the guys in our profession and to millions of Americans out there, right? The this idea that

• 2:24:49Speaker 02

  You're born with this or you're not. I mean, situation brought this, brought this out, right? It's chronic stress, chronic pain going on from injuries and, and just the way that you train, the way that, I mean, it, it takes its toll. And, and then that leads to all sorts of things. And, you know, the brain is something that we don't really study that well. We don't study it much at all. And, you know, it's one of those things where we're able to, to, you know, cure this virus almost a year later with a huge national surge, because we, because we give a shit and it matters. And this is something that is just kind of still floating around over here. I mean, what's it going to take? We're,

• 2:25:31Speaker 02

  we're losing our, some of our most valuable people on, in, in our country, right? To, to something that we just don't understand. But what I know, my mental shift is to say, there wasn't one bit of weakness in Chad Wilkinson. There was something that is inexplicable that we just have not explained yet, that, that changed inside of him. And some decision making process, you know, it, it just, it changed. And, and we have a long ways to go.

• 2:25:59Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there, there's a famous football player from San Diego, a guy named Junior Sayow. Have you ever heard of him?

• 2:26:05Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:26:06Jocko Willink?

  Like, the most beloved, uh, probably San Diego Charger, maybe even the most beloved San Diego athlete. Total stud, you know, a beast of a human, like a super nice guy. He was just, just this incredible human being. And he retired from the NFL and he killed himself. Like, he had everything. And, you know, that, that, that made me think of this. You know, Sarah, when you're like, talking about Chad and when I've talked to people that, like, are, are depressed, straight up depressed.

• 2:26:46Jocko Willink?

  Their heads in like this, their heads in a storm, their heads in like darkness and it's really like from the outside. You look at them and you think, oh yeah, well, hey, man, it's, you know, you're in this bad situation, but it's only, it's only just right around you. And if you come over here a little bit, you'll be out of the storm, like come on over. But from their perspective, no matter where they look, it's like darkness. And they just see the storm and they don't see that if they can move forward more, they can go a little bit further and they don't see that everybody's on the outside going, hey, like it's okay, man, it's super sunny and bright and like there's a rainbow over here and everything's cool. Just, just, just move over here a little bit and they can't, they,

• 2:27:31Jocko Willink?

  they don't see it. They don't see it. They can't see it. They can't see it because it's there. That's what they're, that's what's around them. And so like, it just causes them to do things that don't make any sense to us because we're looking at them from the outside going, hey, like, no, it's sunny, it's sunny and they can't see it. And it's like trying to convince people. It, it, it's almost impossible. It seems almost impossible to try and convince someone that that storm that they see 360 degrees around them, thunder, lightning, winds, that's what they see. And to convince them that, hey, man, right over here, it's sunny and it's a nice beach day and it's 80 degrees and we're gonna, it's okay.

• 2:28:18Jocko Willink?

  They, they, they can't see it. And it's so hard to get them out of that cloud. And I, and I think that's where people get stuck. And it's so frustrating from the outside because

• 2:28:34Jocko Willink?

  we can see all that other good stuff that they just don't have the ability to see anymore. So I think it's like a combination. You got, like I said, Junior Sayaw. What better life could that guy have set up for himself? You know, he's got everything that a person could want. And yet he's in this cloud and it consumes him.

• 2:28:56Speaker 02

  I mean, so did Chad, right? I mean, a great, great family, great life. He had respect, he had honor. I mean, everything, it doesn't get better than that, right? I mean, that's, that's the currency when you're in that line of, line of work. You just want, you want to be respected and you want them to think, oh, he's doing a good job. And, you know, you look, you look at where he went and what he did, he had that. And when you can't see it, there's, there's just something, there's something else going on.

• 2:29:28Jocko Willink?

  Absolutely.

• 2:29:29Speaker 02

  And, and so when, when you kind of look at that, I mean, you know, it's like, what's the responsibility moving forward? Right? I mean, there's some command responsibility. I'm not sitting here pointing fingers backwards. I'm sitting saying like, you know, part of what we want to do is, is educate the next, the next crop. And I know you're huge on this as well. And, I mean, it's the hardest thing to do sometimes is to take someone out of the game. It's like, you know, we, we started this in football. You've got the concussion measurements. And if you get a concussion, you got to come out. And, you know, if it's your star player, you still got to come out. And, and you start to look at like, how are we doing this in the military, you know? We kind of say the military is not a social experiment because it's not.

• 2:30:14Speaker 02

  But the, the truth of the matter is, is that when you get into these, especially units like DevGru and Delta and SF, right? I mean, your job is to go win wars. I mean, this, this is not, like, that requires, I mean, the American alpha male is, is a very special kind of thing in, in the history of history. And it requires a special type of training. It requires all sorts of things that, that make it very difficult to, to stop them from wanting to keep going after that. You just, you, it's like we're breeding it into them. It's like you take American alpha males and you make them more alpha. I mean, it's, it's quite impressive and you create these units. I mean, they're storied units.

• 2:30:59Speaker 02

  I mean, DevGru, SEAL Team Six, I mean, the SEALs, it's, these are, these are, you know, it's very impressive. And so how, how do we, how do we, how do we protect the guys though? And I say this from a two-way street, you know, it's one thing is here and say, oh, you know, we gotta know that if we're not sleeping well, that there's something wrong and that's gonna be a problem. Like, okay, I'm like, I'm on a team, I'm like, yeah, got it, right? Take another pill. Right? Work out a little harder, maybe I'll sleep better. Yeah, good. You know? And it's like, that's not gonna work. Right? It's not gonna work. At some point, we have to, we have to put more of a systematic approach in here to mental health.

• 2:31:42Speaker 02

  We've done that in SF, right? I mean, they're starting to treat Green Berets like professional athletes, which is great, you know? You've got a locker room, you've got, you know, the physical trainers, you get physicals, you get checked up, you get all these things. And, you know, if we don't, then it's too much of the loss is in vain.

• 2:32:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Yeah, no, and they definitely are moving in that direction in, in the teams, in the SEAL teams, like the baseline studies that they're doing. They are, they are absolutely moving in that direction. I mean, they have whole organizations within the organization that are focused on that. And, um, yeah, I mean, the lessons have definitely been learned.

• 2:32:23Speaker 02

  That's great. I mean, Chad, Chad killed himself three years ago.

• 2:32:26Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 2:32:27Speaker 02

  Like, we're not moving, we're not moving fast enough.

• 2:32:29Jocko Willink?

  Hear you.

• 2:32:30Speaker 02

  I mean, the VA, you know what the budget is for veteran suicide prevention? It's 10.2 billion.

• 2:32:35Jocko Willink?

  Wow.

• 2:32:36Speaker 02

  That's a big number.

• 2:32:39Jocko Willink?

  That is a big number.

• 2:32:40Speaker 02

  Right? And, you know, the VA gets just shit on all over the place, right? The VA is actually trying. I mean, if you look at budget, there's some trying there. They're trying experimental stuff, antidepressant nasal spray, right? Virtual reality-based suicide prevention training. I mean, these kinds of things, like, they are, there are things that, that we are trying, we as a nation. And it's, at some point, you know, the guys that are close to the guys, and, and gals, I don't wanna, I don't wanna exclude the, the female service members either, because this affects them as well. I mean, you're,

• 2:33:22Speaker 02

  you're actually statistically more likely to commit suicide if you did not deploy than if you did.

• 2:33:30Jocko Willink?

  Explain that again.

• 2:33:30Speaker 02

  So if you did not, I mean, it's saying, you know, like just because you were on SEAL Team Six or just because you saw intense combat, right? That's not a predictor of suicide. So it might be a predictor of, you know, TBI and those kinds of things because, you know, if all you do is explosive breach charges next to doors all day long, I mean, you know, commanders have to figure out a way to limit that stuff. Like you can only do this so many times. I got it. You don't want the first one to be on, you know, the house downrange. You have, you have to work with live explosives. But, but at the same time, you can't, you can't just go through the same repetitions a million times.

• 2:34:13Speaker 02

  And, you know, I mean, the other part is you have your, your team time and you roll off a team and there's always guys behind you. And, and this is credit to America, first off, and credit to just who we are. We, we sign up and we say, send me. And, and there's a lot of us that, that answer that. When you're on that, when you're living that life and you're on these deployments, doing this cool stuff, you don't want to miss any of it. You're like, this is my slot. Nobody's coming in behind me. And, you know, Sarah, you told me this. You're like, you know, and the truth of the matter is there's, there's a lot more SEALs right behind you. And so commanders have this at their, at their discretion. They have this, this ability to kind of, how do we?

• 2:34:58Speaker 02

  We can take a look back now, right? Remove all the politics about, you know, the wars are ending. Well, the wars aren't going to end for the tier one units ever, right? But at the same time, we have an operational, we're not, there's less going on, there's less work. And we have this ability to kind of reset a little bit, the way that we're, the way that we're approaching this.

• 2:35:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Yeah. Well, this kind of conversation right here is a thing that can hopefully move this in the right direction. And I know that's.

• 2:35:29Speaker 02

  The main reason that you're sitting here today is to try and move this in the right direction. And, and you're actually, well, let's talk about how you're doing that. Let's talk about, you know, the actual charities and stuff that you guys are doing to try and raise awareness.

• 2:35:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, so the one thing Jason and I are partnered on is the workout in honor of my husband. We refer to it as Chad 1000X. Again, I spoke about this at his funeral. As he prepped to climb that mountain, he did it by doing step ups on a box and he did it on a 20 inch box with a 45 pound pack, working up to 1,000 over a period of time. And then, once he got there, then he would just like pump out 1,000 every couple of days. Chad was super disciplined. He was incredibly focused in every goal that he had and, and that's definitely something that I'm trying to have live within me.

• 2:36:30Speaker 01

  This workout, I talked about at his funeral and so it more or less organically kind of just became a thing, right? Dave was there, CrossFit friends were there.

• 2:36:40Speaker 02

  Dave Castro was there.

• 2:36:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. And they just did it on their own, just because they thought, oh, challenge, right? That's cool, 1,000 step ups, 45, you know, man stuff, let's do it. And then, fast forward.

• 2:36:53Speaker 02

  I'll, I'll stop you there. I won't speak for Dave, but I will say, I mean, Dave knew Chad, they served, they served together. And he, he doesn't know how to process that, you know? I mean, he doesn't know how to process the loss of a friend, especially to suicide. And so, you know, he's trying to do, it is amazing how many people want to help. How many people this has affected? I mean, Chad's life ripple effect's huge, but everybody has this, there's some, this, this epidemic has touched so many people and nobody knows how to deal with it. Nobody knows how. I mean, am I supposed to do 22 pushups in front of my, you know, phone and, and publish it on social media? I mean, is that helping?

• 2:37:36Speaker 01

  22 is not the number.

• 2:37:40Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:37:40Speaker 01

  It's not even an accurate number.

• 2:37:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's seventeen, it's seventeen now, which is, which is better. You know, it just, so many people want to, want to help. So I think, you know, Dave, for his part, I mean, I know he, he wanted to, to honor Chad and, you know, I think he wanted other people to honor Chad as well. And, and that's.

• 2:38:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, so we've established Chad 1000X into an annual fundraiser. And there, there are many spouses like myself, Gold Star spouses, and they've gone on and there's golf tournaments and there's five Ks and there's the like, and they raise monies for different organizations. This workout specifically, we want around Veterans Day because while it's Chad's face, and I have kind of stepped into the, the role of sharing his story. For me, it has less to do with, with Chad Wilkinson and more to do about the struggle

• 2:38:42Speaker 01

  that our veterans currently have. And so why not really focus this around Veterans Day when that's what we're doing, honoring those serving, and create a platform for them to talk to one another? We did this last year and it was kind of a late rollout. And we're like, let's just like, do this and see what happens and very, we really had no expectation and I can't even express how humbled we were by the response. And I mean, it, it went global, it went around the world. People, people did this workout. I think the beauty of it is anybody can do this workout.

• 2:39:23Speaker 01

  Because a step up is not technical. We're not snatching, there's no muscle ups, you know? Anybody can do a step up. And then obviously we scale it. And, you know, you have this huge fitness background, you're well aware, not everyone has to do the 20 inch box. Not everybody has to do that weight. But being able to go do.

• 2:39:47Speaker 01

  A workout in honor of someone in our military that that generally brings people together anyway, because they want to kind of pay their humble respects. But the potential that it could bring for people to have a conversation, whether it's you're doing the step ups and maybe you start to realize in that hour timeframe where your brain does go. What do you think about, you know, your struggle? The person you're doing it for, the friend you lost? Do you do it with a friend and you guys can talk to each other? Well, I think Jason and I have confirmed that once you get to probably about 500, you don't really talk anymore.

• 2:40:29Speaker 01

  But the idea of doing it with a friend, the symbolism there is to me, everybody needs somebody.

• 2:40:38Jocko Willink?

  Have you put together, technical question here? Have you put together like a ramp up program for people to do, you know, two months out, do a hundred and then whatever, break it down like, you know, those marathon programming things where?

• 2:40:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's a training program. Yeah.

• 2:40:57Speaker 02

  Yeah. And so, you know, part of the, the bigger message here is, you know, I've never met the guy that I served with ever who said, man, I'm really looking forward to going to that shrink's office with the waterfall in the background. And it's really quiet and let's go talk about feelings. But I've never met that, I've never met that person, right? Especially from our community.

• 2:41:19Jocko Willink?

  Well, but have you heard a night go?

• 2:41:22Speaker 01

  Chad went.

• 2:41:23Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:41:24Speaker 01

  Do you want to know how I feel about it?

• 2:41:25Jocko Willink?

  Sure. I mean, I've, I've talked to a lot of guys that went to it that thought it was awesome. And I don't know when Chad went.

• 2:41:34Speaker 01

  December 2016 and within two years he was dead. They found seven TBIs on his brain and they laughed.

• 2:41:41Jocko Willink?

  What, what do you mean?

• 2:41:43Speaker 01

  That wasn't very many. One of the guys we were with had 42. He made a joke. He said, yeah, I gotta walk around with a football helmet because I can't risk falling over. The guy, you know, I mean, they can joke among each other, but it's just like seven TBIs to them wasn't very many. But you know what you can't find on all those screens? CTE or interface astroglow scarring.

• 2:42:04Speaker 01

  So, you know, I am an advocate of whatever you find works, if that works for you, do it. 100%, I believe it, feel it, live it.

• 2:42:20Speaker 01

  But, I am not convinced by any military-centered organization that they're really doing any sort of good yet. And I don't know if they just want to talk about it and not be about it.

• 2:42:40Speaker 01

  But less than two years later Chad was dead. And, you know, you do all the things. I mean, there is a lot of assessment that happens at that place. And could be potentially good. It told me almost all the things I already knew about him.

• 2:42:55Speaker 01

  As a spouse.

• 2:42:57Speaker 01

  They did personality tests and different stress tests. I mean, yes, I don't know the scientific sleep lab study, but I could tell you his sleep is shit.

• 2:43:10Speaker 01

  They did a test where they are trying to realize, are you the guy that's gonna... I'm trying to think of the best way they said this. Basically, are you the guy that's gonna see a problem and respond right away? Like rapid fire, like bull in a china shop? Are you the guy that's gonna like take a minute, assess it? And you're not gonna be very fast, but it's gonna be methodical and it's gonna be perfect? Well, that's Chad. If you would have ever watched him pack a car for a family trip, that's Chad. So, all the things that they did there, you know, I don't feel like it gave me any more insight than I already had. And I'm not so sure that's the case for Chad. I mean, and they do art therapy, and they do dog therapy, and they do music therapy.

• 2:43:53Speaker 01

  And, I mean, even them making him walk a dog, he finally said to him, "Hey, man, I'll do whatever you want me to do, but I'm not walking this damn dog." He's probably one of the few team guys that like, he didn't like dogs.

• 2:44:06Speaker 01

  So, yeah, if it works for people and they got something out of it, great. But the way I see it is it's a way for the guys to go fatten their medical records so they can punch the ticket on where their medical disability lies. Which, to be totally frank as a spouse, every single one of those dudes should be 100% disabled.

• 2:44:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no, I I never went to it. It wasn't, I don't think it was, it was in existence, maybe, but I never went to it. But I I do know a lot of guys that went to it that got a lot out of it. And part of what they got out of it, yeah, they're looking at their medical record, but you know, they're, I mean, just the the decompression aspect of it, meaning for thirty days, like, you're just gonna eat nice food and like, not do anything, not blow anything up or whatever. There was, and and guys felt, I I definitely know some guys that got a lot out of going to it. Uh, clearly, um, there's some shortfalls. Um, especially if they find issues and they're like, oh, yeah, this is no factor. That seems kind of crazy.

• 2:45:05Jocko Willink?

  But, yeah, you mentioned that CTE thing, because they can't, they they can't see CTE while you're alive, right?

• 2:45:11Speaker 01

  It's postmortem, so same thing, interface obstacle of scarring. Right now, there is no test for it. So to some degree, for those guys out there that have served multiple deployments and know you have some TBIs, you might want to almost assume that that could be in there.

• 2:45:30Speaker 01

  What what I think could be a great way and an extension of service for some of our military is this KCO form we fill out before the guys deploy. And, um, for listeners, it's it's

• 2:45:45Speaker 01

  it's it's a form we fill out that basically says what's going to happen should your husband get killed or or wife, your spouse, gets killed. And everything from who's going to show up at your door? Are they going to wear their uniform? Is it military honors? Are they buried? Are they cremated? Who's going to take your kids? All all those, you know, pretty important questions. It's kind of sad that when you fill it out so many times, it's commonplace. I remember the first time I filled it out, we mulled over these questions for so long. And and by the end of the deployments, I mean, I'm like making dinner and I'm like, oh, yeah, that's fine. Yep, that's fine. Wait, change that, because she moved. And she's not going to be able to get here in time, so make it this person. I mean, that's how it is. But.

• 2:46:28Speaker 01

  And there's, there is some, there is gonna be some limitations and I don't know what they are, but we were able to donate Chad's brain because he, he was stateside. And you have to do it probably within forty-eight to seventy-two hours. I'm not quite sure what the timeframe is. And his brain was studied and that's how we were able to determine that, that he did have that. And I don't know if it would be applicable if you're overseas because of travel time, etc. But if you were to add that on the CAECO form, that if you were killed, you would like your brain donated. This is in no way to encourage anybody to take their life by any means.

• 2:47:08Speaker 01

  But either way, if you're a team guy and, and you get in a car accident and you die, fill in the blank, if you could also put on there, or at least have a conversation with your person, that you also want your brain donated, that would be a great extension of service.

• 2:47:29Jocko Willink?

  I think that's a straightforward ask. I mean, yeah, a straightforward ask.

• 2:47:34Speaker 02

  Brain study is kind of a big, it's a big topic in, in those circles right now. And there, there's so many elements that go into this, but you know, there's the two places where the brain's really being studied right now are China and, and Japan. And Europe, you know, there's just protests on chimpanzees, excuse me. And so, you know, because they're the closest to us, the, the best way to study the brain is while it's working. You know, you can't, it makes sense, right?

• 2:48:01Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 2:48:01Speaker 02

  And so, you know, we have issues doing that here with chimpanzees. You know, they're, they're chasing off the European equivalent of PETA's chasing off, you know, scientists from Europe. They're, they're just setting up shop in China and it's like, yeah, we're gonna, we're gonna graft this brain, you know? And so, there's a lot of, there's a lot of- Challenges that we will, we will face. What, what we do know is that mass veteran suicide is not a thing. Guys don't all get together and kill themselves at the same time. We, we need, we need to create communities with, with bonds of people that were able to take some of the lessons that, that Sarah's

• 2:48:45Speaker 02

  bravely sharing with us and, and so many behind, behind and around her are sharing about their journey, what they've seen. We, we need to strengthen the community so that we're able to kind of watch after each other because the military has a stronger social fabric than pretty much anywhere. And in, in sort of normal, you know, middle America or anywhere, America, right? And, and still you're, you're 1.5, there's a lot of different statistics, but you're 1.5 times more likely to take your life if you're in the military than if you're not. And it's just, you know, how is this happening? Like, how is this okay? Well, it's not okay.

• 2:49:25Speaker 02

  And so what we're trying to do and what we are doing is bringing people together in the real world, not in a shrink's office with the waterfall, you know, that you don't want to be there. And it's like, hey, you know, physical health, mental health, somehow those are definitely, we don't have to study chimpanzees to know that those are definitely tied together. And obviously Chad did not suffer from physical, you know, like he could do a thousand step ups just fine and climb mountains and stuff, but you know, all these things, you know, you're not sleeping well. Great, work out. You know, you, you talk about this all the time, Jaco, right? You know, and, and so bring people together. Yes, think about this. And so it was really telling when we did this in Virginia Beach and, and guys that Chad had served with showed up, you know, quietly, kind of did the work.

• 2:50:11Speaker 02

  You know, they showed up in the big F9 50s that, you know, it's like, just awesome. This is America. God bless us, right? And, uh, you know, they showed up and if, if this was a, a group counseling session to talk about, you know, the, the mandatory briefs, no way, nobody's showing up for that stuff. But you show up and, and you do the work in honor of, you know, to honor Chad's life and to think about veteran suicide prevention, to think about this unbreakable guy, right? I mean, go ask anybody in the Navy that go wants to be a SEAL. Do you want Chad's career? They're like, yes. That's, I want that to be me. And you got guys showing up and you know, there, there's some community around it, you know,

• 2:50:52Speaker 02

  everyone's then bending Sarah's ear that's, that's, you know, cause this issue is so close to, so close to so many people in the community. And, but you're just strengthening bonds, right? You bring people together in the real world. This is very counterculture and we're very cool with that, you know, in a world where kids are growing up text messaging each other to, instead of talking, instead of sitting kneecap to kneecap like, like we are right now, right? And we need this. We're, we're social animals and we need to be a part of something bigger than ourselves. And so that's, that's what we're about and, and physical health and mental health and raising awareness and it's, it can't just be, you

• 2:51:34Speaker 02

  know, trying to beat it into people, right? Like, oh, I'm a hammer. I see a nail. Let me just tell, let me tell you about veteran suicide prevention. People just tune that out. But when you've got a story as, you got a story like Chad's and you've got someone like Sarah that's, that's able and willing to tell it. I mean, this is hard. She's got to, she's got to saddle up every time, every time for this. And she's doing it because she wants to change the number. And she wants other people to not go through what she's had to go through. And there's, there's a lot of bravery that goes, that goes into that. And, you know, and so that's, I'm, I'm proud that, that we get to, I mean, I, I work for her in this. Goruck works for her. And, you know, we don't do anything that,

• 2:52:17Speaker 02

  that she's not on board with in terms of Chad's story or just the way that we're running the, running the event around. And, you know, we just have, this is just a unique opportunity in, in the kind of veteran suicide prevention space that, that nobody wants to be too close to. But unfortunately, you know, some of us are. And, and so it's a real honor. This is, this is the thing I'm most proud of that I've, that I've been a part of because it is, it's just, it's, it's, it's changing lives, helping people and bringing them together and raising awareness for something that is, is really important to me. Cause I know, I know you've lost people in your circle, I'm sure. People in my circle, there's, you

• 2:53:01Speaker 02

  know, you don't have to, there's Sarah sitting right there. I mean, this is, this is her life. And so it just, this is, this matters, this matters hugely to us.

• 2:53:11Speaker 02

  Well, I'm on board. Um, like, what do people need to do when they're on board? What are we doing? What's, what's our deal?

• 2:53:18Speaker 01

  Well, we, we want people to take to the workout and that might look different for a lot of people. You can go to your local gyms, jump on it, do it in your garage, find a buddy. We're hosting larger scale, what we call live events this year. And we're doing those in some, we'll call like flagship cities. One of them's here in San Diego. So we're hoping maybe you might come and show up.

• 2:53:41Speaker 02

  Right on.

• 2:53:42Speaker 01

  November 6th, uh, San Diego, it'll be at CrossFit Humanity. So not too far from here. I passed it actually on the way. We're doing it November 3rd, well, let me back up. November 5th, we're going to be doing it in Fort Pierce, Florida, at the UDT SEAL Museum. So it's their stump muster weekend. I'll be speaking and doing some other things down there.

• 2:54:02Speaker 02

  That place is outstanding. If you get a chance, go to Fort Pierce, Florida and visit the UDT SEAL Museum. It's awesome.

• 2:54:08Speaker 01

  It is, it is, it is really, really cool. Um, so that's November 5th. November 6th, we're in San Diego. November 11th is going to be New York City. November 13th is going to be Virginia Beach, uh, my hometown and Jack's.

• 2:54:24Speaker 02

  Jack's is actually November 6th now.

• 2:54:25Speaker 01

  Oh, is it?

• 2:54:26Speaker 02

  We moved it a little bit earlier. Yeah, so we're hosting. So, you know, call it a big giant muster. Start, start getting your, your train on. You got a thousand box steps with a 45 pound ruck, bro.

• 2:54:37Jocko Willink?

  That's a get some evolution right there.

• 2:54:38Speaker 02

  That's a get some evolution right there.

• 2:54:40Jocko Willink?

  Evolution. That is a get some evolution for sure.

• 2:54:44Speaker 01

  You know, he'd used to do that. I don't know if you know this, but he used to do it in the garage. I have video of this. Him doing step ups and he would do it in, you know, in the garage and just shorts and his backpack. He cut all the tags out of his gear, right? Ounces equal pounds, Sarah, ounces equal pounds. So he knew what he was carrying, but he used a projector and he projected a concagua on the back of our garage door. So when I talk about focus, that's how focused he was and that's, that's how focused I am with this. So.

• 2:55:14Jocko Willink?

  And then, and then what, we're raising money? Is that what we're doing?

• 2:55:17Speaker 02

  We are raising money.

• 2:55:18Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:55:19Speaker 02

  So, um, this, this came about through a partnership that GoRuck had had with the Navy SEAL Foundation. You know, one of your brothers, Chris Irwin, who was, Sarah was his level one CrossFit instructor in Virginia Beach way back when. I mean, you know, everyone is so close, close to, to everyone and. He had, he had called me and, and said, hey, you know, cause.

• 2:55:39Jocko Willink?

  Did you ever teach any of these ones out here on the west coast?

• 2:55:43Speaker 01

  Uh, I taught some in Del Mar.

• 2:55:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I think I probably went to two or three of those over the years in that timeframe too.

• 2:55:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I'm sure we crossed paths and.

• 2:55:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I was the guy with the massive deadlift. No, I'm just kidding.

• 2:55:58Jocko Willink?

  No, you would not remember me from my physical attributes at a, at a CrossFit seminar. So we're raising money.

• 2:56:04Speaker 02

  So we're, we're raising money and you know, this, this came about through that partnership and, and, uh, you know, Chris had called me up and he was like, you know, nobody knows how to deal with this, man. Everyone wants to deal with it and nobody knows how to deal with it. And, and he, you know, so you get guys that are in positions, you're, you're at the SEAL Foundation and GoRuck, whatever, right? It's like, we, we want to deal with this. We still didn't know how to deal with it. And he's like, well, I think I got, I think this Chad workout is the way that we can deal with this. He goes, but I gotta call Sarah because obviously, you know, you don't do anything without the family. If the family's not on board, especially the, the spouse, I mean spouse is the, that, that's the, that's the deal.

• 2:56:47Speaker 02

  And you know, she had to think about it and, you know, said no, and then thought about it. And we, we ended up chatting. It was me and Emily and, and Chris and Sarah on a call. I'm out, you know, it's Florida. We have, you know, it's hot. I'm outside. My kids are inside. Pure chaos. We're chatting on Zoom or whatever it was in the middle of the pandemic and she's finally like, okay, let's do this. And I'm like, I kind of said, okay, well, you know, if you change your mind. She's like, no, I've made up my mind. We're doing this. Right? And so to, to throw her another, like CrossFit, there's a lot of hard workouts in CrossFit, right? A, a lot of you can look at, you know, you can do them harder. You can scale them to whatever. The, the hardest, the hardest workout in the history of CrossFit that's ever been done was how she did Chad the first time.

• 2:57:33Speaker 02

  She went into, into their garage and she put on Chad's rucksack by herself and did Chad. So think about that when you're feeling sorry for yourself out there, you know, because it's a hard workout and it is, right? And that's what it's supposed to be. Everyone's selling easy. That that's, you don't think about anything when, when life's easy, except the next easy thing you're gonna get, right? You're, you're meant to dig deep. You're meant to think about this. And, and that's, that's the goal. And so raising money, half of it's going to the SEAL Foundation. Sarah has a nonprofit called the Step Up Project and, and that's, you know, it's, it's veteran mental health stuff. It's all going to support that.

• 2:58:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's outstanding. And, you know, I have to throw this out there because like earlier, you, we were talking in the middle of whatever, some high emotion moments and you said something about the, the families, right? And I just, I, I thought about it, but then, you know, we kept talking, but just the fact that the military families out there and what they put up with and what they go through. And usually, I mean, in my mind, have to worry more than the people that are in the military themselves. So on, on top of all this, just, you know, the families that are out there, that, the, the spouses,

• 2:58:57Jocko Willink?

  you know, come on down too, because like it just get to know other people that are living that life. You know, I know that my, my, my wife, you know, she wasn't around, we didn't have any family around. Like, we didn't have any family. We lived in California. When we lived in Virginia Beach, I was gone almost the entire time. She didn't know anyone. She ended up doing what you did, which is going to live with my parents for a while. But yeah, just families, right? Military families too, come and get it. That's what I'm thinking.

• 2:59:26Speaker 02

  Family friendly, kid friendly.

• 2:59:28Speaker 01

  We don't discriminate. Come on down.

• 2:59:29Speaker 02

  All of them. It was, it was so awesome in Virginia Beach. It was such a great vibe. You know, we were there at the crack of dawn, right? Setting boxes up and then, you know, it's like, all of a sudden, people start to show up in waves because you need a box, right? So there's waves of people getting on the box and people, I mean, we were there, my flight was late that, that afternoon and you guys are still, you know, there was still a big crew there, just like social. It was social. And so it's not a depressing. You know, it's not, it's not like you, you just, people can't live inside that space forever, right? You have, you have your, your difficult moments and you think about it and it's, and it's hard. But you know, anybody, anybody that, that served the way that Chad served,

• 3:00:13Speaker 02

  like the guys I served with, you don't want people to walk around depressed after you're gone. You, you want them, you, you don't want that.

• 3:00:21Speaker 01

  I also think, like a lot of, I, I just think the more we do talk about it, the, the easier it is for someone else to say, "Me too." And so, it's hard to come out and talk about this all the time. And I've had, this week has been a very busy week for me. So I'm pretty, it's been hard. But I have to believe that the more I talk about it and share Chad's story, or, or share the story of, of other friends that have passed, took their lives, that other people will start to speak up. At this Virginia Beach event, I had three people separately pull me aside and confide in me struggles that they had. I've had people

• 3:01:05Speaker 01

  reach out to me through social media, like, long messages. I don't care. I don't care how long it is. I don't care how short it is. And I respond back. And I, I think that it's slow, and I think it's a trickle, but the potential for this workout done around Veterans Day, so we can talk about people's stories, so that it might encourage someone else to say, "Me too." Maybe all, if all they need to hear is that they're not alone, and that someone else feels that too, maybe that's what someone needs, and that's great.

• 3:01:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's, when you know what's happening, it makes things so much easier. And I, I talk about this, like you get a new guy, like Jason, you get a new guy that looks really nervous before their first operation.

• 3:01:52Jocko Willink?

  And if you go, hey, bro, here's what's going on. You're nervous. It's cool. You're a little queasy. Your stomach's a little messed up. Yeah, because they're they're scared. They're nervous. And if you go, yeah, that's normal. It's just no big deal. You're gonna feel that that way a little bit before you go on ops. Uh, no big deal. Don't worry about it. That's your body preparing to go into combat. It's all good. And you can see like relief on their face.

• 3:02:10Speaker 02

  That's mentorship right there.

• 3:02:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:02:13Speaker 02

  And we need more of that.

• 3:02:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And this to me, this this whole thing is like, if you can tell someone, oh, yeah, you you've you've breached forty seven doors in your last three week trip, which is not an extraordinary number like that. That's, you know, oh, you've you got crashed in a room however many times. You shot a Carl Gustaf twenty nine times, or you were the the RSO. So you had, you know, two troops go through and shoot one per man and you rate you RSOed all of them. That's whatever, you know, eighty freaking blasts next to your head that you sat through. And there are some things that are going on inside your brain. Here's what's going on. Here's what you need to watch out for. Here's how you can get ahead of it.

• 3:02:59Jocko Willink?

  That kind of conversation about this stuff is the same thing that it impacts that young new guy that goes, okay, got it. Now I can grab it. Now I can get a hold of it and I can move forward.

• 3:03:12Jocko Willink?

  It's awesome.

• 3:03:15Jocko Willink?

  Chad one thousand X dot com. That's where we can go to find out about this stuff.

• 3:03:22Jocko Willink?

  Go Ruck, you're at Go Ruck across the board.

• 3:03:24Speaker 02

  Across the board.

• 3:03:25Jocko Willink?

  Jason, if you want to talk to Jason at Go Ruck and just Go Ruck. If I live in, Idaho, can I do Go Ruck?

• 3:03:33Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 3:03:33Jocko Willink?

  What if I live in Nebraska?

• 3:03:36Speaker 02

  So, look, here's the thing. We have we have five hundred official Go Ruck clubs around the the country and and part of it is, We we're activating all of them for this. We really believe in this world of people getting together in the real world. And this is not about you don't have to be a veteran to do this. You don't have to be anything except willing to show up, right? And you get so much out of

• 3:03:59Jocko Willink?

  And gut through a freaking thousand step ups, just FYI.

• 3:04:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's an hour, you know, it's an hour.

• 3:04:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, okay.

• 3:04:07Speaker 01

  Slow and steady.

• 3:04:08Jocko Willink?

  Slow and steady wins the race.

• 3:04:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, yeah.

• 3:04:11Speaker 02

  And you want to train up.

• 3:04:13Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, that's maybe we need to release some kind of a preparatory workout. We got a bunch of Rabdo people coming at me.

• 3:04:22Speaker 01

  Scale it.

• 3:04:22Speaker 02

  You're worried about people coming at you after for Rabdo now? Come on.

• 3:04:26Jocko Willink?

  Uh, I've imposed Rabdo on a few people and it it doesn't feel good. I feel horrible. You know, I always feel like I I won't do it anymore. I I kind of figured it out like it just it it's not. I don't like doing that to people.

• 3:04:41Speaker 02

  No, no, we same thing. So disclaimer is you need to train yourself up. This is an hour. It's it's step ups.

• 3:04:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:04:47Speaker 02

  You got this.

• 3:04:48Jocko Willink?

  Step ups with a 45 pound plate on your back.

• 3:04:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, scale it down if you're not ready.

• 3:04:52Jocko Willink?

  Do we need to train? What we need to train for, right?

• 3:04:54Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 3:04:54Jocko Willink?

  That's what I'm saying.

• 3:04:55Speaker 02

  So it's it's a buy in for your your workouts. It's it's a cash out for your workouts, whatever else you're doing, just just integrate a box. If you've got a cooler in your house, use a cooler. If there's, you know, like, whatever the case may be, you have steps.

• 3:05:08Jocko Willink?

  Yep, get it. Instagram, you're on Instagram?

• 3:05:13Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:05:14Jocko Willink?

  Sarah Wilkinson, seven, number seven.

• 3:05:18Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 3:05:20Jocko Willink?

  Jason, you got anything else? Did I miss anything?

• 3:05:25Speaker 02

  I don't think so. And did we miss anything?

• 3:05:28Speaker 01

  Oh, well, I guess just to bring, just to make the point one more time, and is that where we find the guys are very fragile, I'm gonna say fragile, is in their transition time. So when people are separating from the military, maybe they didn't hit retirement, maybe they've done 10 years and they're transitioning out, or they're at retirement and now they need to transition to civilian life, that is a very

• 3:05:57Speaker 01

  For a SEAL, I'm gonna say that's a very delicate time for them. And I would encourage families, peers, to really be on the lookout for them during that time. Because as we've talked so much about the brain and PTSD, there's also that loss of tribe. Or at least they feel as though there is. And what we see is sometimes that increases the likelihood of maybe someone not making a really good decision. So I would just encourage people to

• 3:06:34Speaker 01

  just be of the best support for those people during that period of transition.

• 3:06:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, interestingly, that's when a SEAL platoon is most exposed, when they're transitioning from the water to the land, or the land to the water. And there's not only a perceived loss of tribe, like you're talking about, but also that perceived loss of mission. Because what have I been doing my whole life? And now all of a sudden, what am I gonna do now?

• 3:07:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, when Chad was close to 20 years, we were at the discussion of what do we do? You know, my dad served 26 years. His dad served somewhere about that. I can't quite remember. And you know, the hard part is, I really kind of hoped he would pick us. I thought, okay, we've done 20 years. Like, we've done 20 years. Me, Sarah, Chad, Kinsley, Hudson. We've done it. Boom. Pick us. And he didn't.

• 3:07:31Speaker 01

  And I, again, believe he had a warrior's heart and he was born to do this.

• 3:07:37Speaker 01

  But

• 3:07:42Speaker 01

  I said to him, well, you know, we talked about jobs. And I just remember he looked at me and he said, "I don't have any skills."

• 3:07:50Speaker 01

  That's what they think. I mean, he was dead serious. And you're thinking, what? I mean, I know that you're not going to go work for someone and be hanging out in bushes and kicking down doors most likely. But what the skills these guys do have, I mean, most of them are are very intelligent, critical thinkers, analytical, problem solvers, think outside of the box, can make decisions quickly.

• 3:08:18Speaker 01

  That is a lot of really great attributes that many organizations in the civilian world would want. And so, again, just to speak to, I, I, you know, it's that loss of identity and it's like, I've been shooting guns and busting down doors. What, what else do I do?

• 3:08:38Jocko Willink?

  One of my first platoon chiefs said he, there was a old Vietnam SEAL. And he was a mailman now. And they would go over there and like, drink beer or whatever at his house and he'd tell stories about NOM.

• 3:08:51Speaker 01

  Nice.

• 3:08:52Jocko Willink?

  And he had this picture on the wall. And it was a, like a shot from behind, like a picture of, of a guy's back. And the guys, the guy whose back you see is clearly a Vietnam SEAL with a floppy hat and a stoner and his web gear on and his jungle cammy top and his blue jeans and he's standing in front of like a corporate desk. And the the corporate desk, there's the boss guys looking at him and the caption underneath is, I'm sorry, sir, we don't have any jobs for point men here.

• 3:09:24Jocko Willink?

  Which is true, but to your point, and believe me, I see this all the time. I work with companies all over the country and all over the world, actually, and they absolutely need the individuals that have these kinds of attributes that you're talking about. And there is absolutely a new mission when you get done with the military to go out in the civilian world and have an impact, make people's lives better and build great products and build great companies and, and do great things. And that is absolutely available and you are needed in the, in the civilian world.

• 3:09:55Jocko Willink?

  And that's the way it is.

• 3:09:57Speaker 02

  We need them too.

• 3:09:59Jocko Willink?

  Hundred percent.

• 3:10:00Speaker 02

  Like, our country needs people with this kind of experience spread throughout our country. Spread throughout our companies, spread throughout our communities, spread throughout our neighborhoods. And one of the things that makes San Diego such a great town is it's a military. There's, it's a military town. You've got this just underpinnings of San Diego, the foundation is strong. It's the same where I live, in Jacksonville Beach. I mean, my, my neighbor two doors down is a Top Gun instructor. I mean, these things are just normal around us and it's great. They're just good people that are just, you know, this, talk about, you know, the greatest generation coming back to America and just doing great stuff, getting educated and working their asses off and building America into America. And, you know, we need more of that.

• 3:10:45Speaker 02

  And so, we need, we need, the, the transition is, is, it's, to echo her point, I mean, it's, it just sucks. I mean, don't underestimate it under any circumstances. It can happen to you, it will happen to you, it will be terrible. And, and just now that you know it's coming, brace for it a little bit. Take it easy on yourself, build out some support structures around you, you know, stuff like that. And we just, this is going to require something that is not kind of normal this day and age. It's going to require us to kind of work together, you know? Like, how to support transitioning folks better, how to kind of build stronger communities in the real world. How to, that's what we need.

• 3:11:29Speaker 02

  We don't, you don't need guys coming out and it's like, hey, you know what you need to do? You need to be an influencer on Instagram, right? Like, no, you know, how about not that? Right? And, and so, you know, it's, it's, it's difficult. It's difficult and, and we have to keep having the conversation. That, that's why I, I respect you and then, and I respect this long form podcast stuff that you do, because it's, it's, it forces people, you know, it's not just soundbites. It's like, hey, here's the story. This is, nothing's as simple as, as it looks on someone's feed. And, you know, that, that's kind of what real life is like. And, and I think that we, we need more of that, not less.

• 3:12:14Jocko Willink?

  Totally agree. Well, speaking of long form, I've kept you in here for over three hours. Jason, thank you for what you're doing. Thanks for your service. You know, we covered that last time. And thanks for what you're continuing to do. Building GoRuck and forming communities out there. Real communities. I can see this look in your eye when you, when you start saying that. And, and I get it, man. And for me, it's a lot through jujitsu, but look, that, that's a real thing. And getting people together to get together and sweat and work.

• 3:12:47Jocko Willink?

  It's a positive thing, man. Appreciate what you're doing. And Sarah, obviously, thanks for coming on. Thanks for your service. Thanks for your sacrifice. Thanks for holding the line. And while, while your husband was gone, and gone again, and gone again, and, and being there, and raising a family, and building a business, and doing all those things. The, all the military families that are listening right now, for what you go through, and, and what they risk.

• 3:13:20Jocko Willink?

  So, thanks to you. Thanks to your kids as well, for what they've gone through. And of course, Chad.

• 3:13:29Jocko Willink?

  Thanks for your service, bro.

• 3:13:36Jocko Willink?

  We won't forget.

• 3:13:39Jocko Willink?

  Amen.

• 3:13:40Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 3:13:43Jocko Willink?

  And with that, Sarah Wilkinson and Jason McCarthy have left the building.

• 3:13:52Jocko Willink?

  And

• 3:13:55Jocko Willink?

  Echo Charles, we need to go a little bit old school, I think, on this one, for the decompress, right? So if you've never listened to this before, the original

• 3:14:09Jocko Willink?

  Purpose of when we would get done with a podcast, Echo, Charles and I would just kind of start talking about stuff for a little while. It was to decompress from a heavy subject. As we started doing podcasts and started hitting some heavy subjects along the way. This, we would originally just kind of start talking and I would just kind of let Echo talk for a little bit. While I did the decompression. Cause I'm usually the one that's all wrapped up in whatever subject is we're talking about. So certainly in need of a little decompression after that one. Um, just a, just a very tough subject. And, and that's why we're talking about it, right?

• 3:14:54Jocko Willink?

  We're talking about it as you know, Sarah said like something that she doesn't want anyone else to have to go through. And that's why we talk about these things.

• 3:15:10Jocko Willink?

  So for a little decompressing, um, I'll, I'll let you talk a little bit. Echo, Charles, we, we want people to take care of themselves.

• 3:15:18Speaker 04

  It's true. So you, you like, it's weird cause there's so many mysteries to the brain. Right? So, and with your body, like your physical, your other part of your body is like less of a mystery. Right? So like, yeah, you go in, you know, you're in a combat scenario, you get shot in the abdomen.

• 3:15:38Speaker 04

  And it's like, okay, it's going to be pretty straightforward as far as, hey, can we save this guy? Can we not, you know, all this stuff and like he can bleed out. There's all these things and then there's these, you know, you, you can take specific actions and then hopefully we can save them all this time. You get shot on the leg or something while you're running or you blow out your knee or something. It's like, okay, it's broken. He can't run anymore. It's like pretty straightforward, but the brain, it gets damaged in one way or another. It's kind of like, there's no telling what's going to happen a lot of the time, you know? And you don't know when either.

• 3:16:06Jocko Willink?

  It's, it's, it is, the brain is the mysterious part of the anatomy right now and nerves, right? They don't really know how they work. It's very hard to like repair them. And, and then, yeah, as we said, you take that brain and rattle around inside of a, inside of your skull over and over again. We don't know what it's gonna do, but we know it's not good. We know that much.

• 3:16:30Speaker 04

  And then you have to make it kind of in a way where, okay, remember Kirstie Ennis?

• 3:16:35Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 3:16:35Speaker 04

  Right? So she, she got jammed up, she got injured and she's still at her leg, you know, she was, she was doing this thing and then, but she was constantly being checked in upon, you know, checked on and be like, okay. And then over time, they were like, hey, okay, we're at a point where we've got to make this very specific decision. And we know what could, you know, all this stuff. And it was pretty, it was pretty clear. And then you make the decision, but that's, that's an example of incurring an injury and then it's still having lasting effects, lasting effects, lasting effect, until you gotta, you know, either risk actually dying or risk huger and bigger injuries. Or just say chop it off or amputate and, and you know.

• 3:17:12Jocko Willink?

  Remember her talking about she knows she, cause she could still walk.

• 3:17:17Speaker 04

  Yeah. Yep.

• 3:17:19Jocko Willink?

  And she was taking her last walk on the beach in the sand.

• 3:17:23Speaker 04

  Yeah, exactly right. But a perfect example of like, you can incur the injury. And still handle, still, you know, go about your business. Sure. You're jammed up here and there, here and there. And then, but the injury is still progressing.

• 3:17:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's getting worse.

• 3:17:37Speaker 04

  Getting worse. And then you got, and meanwhile, but the thing is again, for your, your other parts of your body, it's kind of like, there's kind of a protocol. You can check in and be like, okay, for the brain, it's so mysterious. It's like, we can try and we are to kind of trying to do that. But it's so mysterious that it's not as cut and dry like that. And it's the same exact thing. He incurred all these injuries. At some point, and that thing just keeps lasting and lasting, getting worse and worse and worse, you know, until it, it gets you.

• 3:18:06Speaker 04

  It's crazy. It's hard to like, get a grip on exactly what's happening.

• 3:18:11Jocko Willink?

  It's crazy though. It's the unknown frontier of the human body, probably the most unknown frontier of the human body.

• 3:18:17Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 3:18:18Jocko Willink?

  The, the nerves in the brain.

• 3:18:20Speaker 04

  And there's so many illusions too, even like with yourself, where you can be like, oh, I, I just do this in this situation or that situation. Or I would never choose to do that. But you get in a certain like situation, you do some stuff that's real unexplainable. Or only explainable later, even though you thought from like beforehand, you see you were, you were so convinced of something. And then afterwards you're like, oh, she all surprised on what you did, you know, kind of thing. So it's like, so there's this big illusion, like it's like, oh yeah, he could just make the decision not to or whatever. But it's like, that doesn't work like that.

• 3:18:53Jocko Willink?

  Lots of factors come into play.

• 3:18:55Speaker 04

  Yeah, I know.

• 3:18:57Jocko Willink?

  Well, um, we do want people to, like I said, want people to take care of themselves.

• 3:19:03Speaker 04

  Yeah, and the ones around them.

• 3:19:05Jocko Willink?

  And the ones around them, but we gotta kinda like the analogy goes with the, the plane and the oxygen. Gotta put the oxygen on your own face before you put it on your kids.

• 3:19:14Speaker 04

  It's true, so.

• 3:19:15Jocko Willink?

  So you gotta do a little something to kinda keep yourself in the game.

• 3:19:18Speaker 04

  Sarah mentioned something where he said, oh, I don't have any skills, right? And he was talking about getting a job or something like this. And I was thinking, yeah, you know, I can see why someone might think that off like for at first, but the fact is you have a lot of skills and one of the main skills is straight up capability in all these different ways. Where, you know, you can learn this specific thing or learn that specific trade and all this other stuff. But if someone who's just a more capable person across the board, that guy's gonna excel in those skills.

• 3:19:45Jocko Willink?

  For sure.

• 3:19:47Speaker 04

  So, in my opinion, that's an important thing to be capable and to stay capable.

• 3:19:52Jocko Willink?

  True.

• 3:19:53Speaker 04

  So, on this path of capability, hopefully, we're gonna take some hits, some heavies. It happens. That's, that's kinda like you mentioned jujitsu and jujitsu, if you're going hard, are you not gonna get dinged up?

• 3:20:07Jocko Willink?

  No, you are going to get.

• 3:20:08Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's kinda the nature of going hard, see what I'm saying? Just like in workouts, just like with anything else, but don't worry, supplementation will help us all through those dings. Dance. So anyway, Jaco has supplements. It's a long way of saying Jaco has supplements. So first thing we'll go over.

• 3:20:26Jocko Willink?

  You're decompressing.

• 3:20:27Speaker 04

  Yeah, a little bit.

• 3:20:28Jocko Willink?

  You made me chuckle a little bit.

• 3:20:29Speaker 04

  Little bit, we're trying over here.

• 3:20:31Jocko Willink?

  Decompression, okay.

• 3:20:32Speaker 04

  Yeah, so Jaco has a new era of energy drinks, straight up healthy for you. I know we don't equate health and energy drinks in the same thing.

• 3:20:40Jocko Willink?

  Didn't used to.

• 3:20:40Speaker 04

  No.

• 3:20:41Jocko Willink?

  We do now.

• 3:20:41Speaker 04

  We do now, new era, discipline, go. Any different flavors? Best flavor is mango.

• 3:20:49Speaker 04

  Kind of by far.

• 3:20:50Jocko Willink?

  Unabashed and replugging your own activities.

• 3:20:53Speaker 04

  And that's saying a lot because the orange is freaking good. You know, the sour apples, like, these are like good flavor. They taste good, but like mango is just so much better. It's like crazy. It's saying a lot. See what I'm saying?

• 3:21:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Um, the good thing is that these drinks, they taste different. You, you gotta, some people might not like mango, probably a small number of people. Some people might not like orange. Some people not, might not like sour apple sniper. Some people might not like Jaco Palmer. Some people might not like whatever. So the recommendation is try, try one, see what you like.

• 3:21:29Speaker 04

  Yep. Let me know.

• 3:21:31Jocko Willink?

  But eh, let Echo Charles know if his s- signature flavor is the best.

• 3:21:36Speaker 04

  Well, it, since it's factually the best.

• 3:21:38Jocko Willink?

  Do you love your flavor the best?

• 3:21:39Speaker 04

  I like my.

• 3:21:40Jocko Willink?

  Will you ever drink another different kind?

• 3:21:42Speaker 04

  Yes. Yeah, I do.

• 3:21:43Jocko Willink?

  Okay. See, that's what's weird.

• 3:21:45Speaker 04

  Only because I don't want to drink them all and I won't have any. I got to call Pete and Brian and them and you know, there's that.

• 3:21:50Jocko Willink?

  But if you had all flavors in a fridge, every, eh, for one year.

• 3:21:55Speaker 04

  Yeah, I can do one year. Yeah.

• 3:21:57Jocko Willink?

  And I was restocking yours. Would I ever have to replace a sour apple sniper?

• 3:22:03Speaker 04

  You would never have to know. Here's the thing. I can do one year, but in the spirit of, you know, li- nature and all that stuff. Like if you're eating steak every single night and someone offers you like.

• 3:22:14Jocko Willink?

  Off the path of the, of the mango man.

• 3:22:16Speaker 04

  In the spirit of variety, yes.

• 3:22:18Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 3:22:18Speaker 04

  For sure. Well, that's, you know, that's the, I think that's natural.

• 3:22:21Jocko Willink?

  I'm pretty sure.

• 3:22:22Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 3:22:22Jocko Willink?

  I would only drink Jaco Palmer.

• 3:22:24Speaker 04

  I understand.

• 3:22:26Jocko Willink?

  Cause it tastes so good to me.

• 3:22:27Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 3:22:29Jocko Willink?

  But I also only eat steak, so.

• 3:22:30Speaker 04

  There you go. See, cause you're different. All right. Well, either way, either way, it doesn't matter.

• 3:22:34Jocko Willink?

  Drink is what you're saying.

• 3:22:35Speaker 04

  It doesn't matter what flavor you choose to drink at any particular time, regardless if mango is the best flavor. It's all healthy for you. So you drink in the energy drink. You get in the front end, the energy, the little boost that we sometimes want, boom, but you get the health benefits as well.

• 3:22:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:22:54Speaker 04

  As opposed to the poison benefits or lack of benefits or whatever, the detriments. You understand what I'm saying?

• 3:22:59Jocko Willink?

  Detriments.

• 3:23:00Speaker 04

  Either way, discipline. Go, you can get this at Wawa.

• 3:23:04Jocko Willink?

  Mm-hmm.

• 3:23:04Speaker 04

  Vitamin shop.

• 3:23:05Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 3:23:06Speaker 04

  Amazon.

• 3:23:07Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 3:23:09Speaker 04

  And originusa.com. Also, we have

• 3:23:12Jocko Willink?

  Jaco Fuel.com?

• 3:23:13Speaker 04

  Jaco Fuel.com.

• 3:23:13Jocko Willink?

  Actually, from either one. But Jaco Fuel's the easier, remember?

• 3:23:16Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, that's the direct one. You don't gotta click around, all that stuff. Also, that joint where this is for your joints. When you're lifting hard, you're doing jujitsu, like, you don't want to worry about the joints. If you don't want to worry about your joints, this is the one that we need. I don't want to worry about joints. It's gonna be pretty rare, you're gonna want to worry about your joints. But I don't know, some people are more in touch with that kind of stuff, and that's cool, too. Either way, joint where and super krill oil will make sure that they're still in the game. Longevity, man.

• 3:23:42Jocko Willink?

  Hey, have you had the greens yet?

• 3:23:44Speaker 04

  No.

• 3:23:45Jocko Willink?

  Well, we have greens now.

• 3:23:47Speaker 04

  Oh, right on.

• 3:23:48Jocko Willink?

  And decided to come up with a creative name.

• 3:23:50Speaker 04

  Alright, what is it?

• 3:23:51Jocko Willink?

  Jaco Greens.

• 3:23:54Jocko Willink?

  We made some very good greens, and so you can check those out, too. If you don't eat enough vegetables, like me, or fruits, like me,

• 3:24:04Jocko Willink?

  now you can, in a scoop.

• 3:24:06Speaker 04

  Yeah. Yeah, that's good. And again, you know, true Jaco style. Apparently, you're making these things taste good,

• 3:24:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:24:14Speaker 04

  which is very not hardcore of you, by the way, but it is very efficient and, what he said, it's real low drag.

• 3:24:20Jocko Willink?

  It's also results related, right?

• 3:24:22Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 3:24:22Jocko Willink?

  We're not trying to feed, not trying to get you to drink something that tastes like junk.

• 3:24:26Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 3:24:27Jocko Willink?

  And then you don't drink it because it tastes like junk.

• 3:24:29Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 3:24:30Jocko Willink?

  Why would we do that?

• 3:24:31Speaker 04

  You're not trying to offer up another element of resistance in a good path that we're all on. Yeah, yeah, it's true. That's a good move. Also, vitamin D3, Cold War, immunity stuff, this is essential. So, don't forget about that kind of stuff. Also, milk. We talked about steaks, I get it, but sometimes you want extra dessert.

• 3:24:49Jocko Willink?

  Back on the strawberry path right now.

• 3:24:51Speaker 04

  You are.

• 3:24:52Jocko Willink?

  We've been going hardcore strawberry for like, a week and a half. I was going hardcore peanut butter for at least a month.

• 3:24:57Speaker 04

  What's the, what's your normal? Are you putting anything in there, a little banana, a little whatever? What are you just straight, what?

• 3:25:03Jocko Willink?

  Milk. And some variety of milk. Could be coconut milk, could be almond milk, could be the oat milk, could be the milk, milk. But yeah, mix it up with one of those. And they all taste legit. They all have their own little You know?

• 3:25:22Speaker 04

  Yeah, you don't know my protocol. What's up? Been freaking on and it's freaking solid and it tastes good. I don't know though. So is it normal? Like, what do you? Let's say you had a salad, like, not like a side salad, but a robust salad. You know? Steak salad, chicken salad, whatever. What do you drink with that? What's the nor- what pairs with that? That I don't, I know you're gonna say water, I know. But what's the jam?

• 3:25:44Jocko Willink?

  You don't want me to say water?

• 3:25:45Speaker 04

  Alright, well, water kinda goes with everything. You always get water. At the restaurant, they're gonna give you the water first. That's a given. But what is, you know, what's the jam?

• 3:25:53Jocko Willink?

  Your story, your, your thing is not going anywhere. So where, where are you going with this?

• 3:25:57Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 3:25:57Jocko Willink?

  I drink water with my salad.

• 3:25:58Speaker 04

  What I pair with the big salad. It's called the big salad. Chicken, very robust salad.

• 3:26:05Speaker 04

  Milkshake. But just a plain one, though.

• 3:26:09Jocko Willink?

  Plain?

• 3:26:10Speaker 04

  Like, not, usually I add a banana, a frozen banana in there. Or whatever. No, no, no, whatever. So I, I'll go the peanut butter, peanut butter, chocolate. And then milk or the almond milk or whatever. Just, you know, you don't add the oatmeal or bananas or whatever. If you wanna make it all luxury or whatever. See what I'm saying? But it like pairs nicely.

• 3:26:28Jocko Willink?

  Right on.

• 3:26:28Speaker 04

  There you go. Alright, well, either way, these things, again, jockofuel.com.

• 3:26:33Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 3:26:33Speaker 04

  Um, subscribe if you want the influx. You know, where you don't gotta remember to reorder or run out and all that stuff.

• 3:26:40Jocko Willink?

  You don't have to remember, you don't have to pay shipping.

• 3:26:43Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah.

• 3:26:43Jocko Willink?

  Those are two real solid.

• 3:26:45Speaker 04

  Elements. It's true. So we mentioned originusa.com. This is where you can get your American-made denim.

• 3:26:54Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 3:26:55Speaker 04

  Kind of a big deal.

• 3:26:56Jocko Willink?

  No, it's a real big deal.

• 3:26:57Speaker 04

  Yeah, when you kinda go down the line, it's like, sure, you're getting good jeans. I get it. It's, it's good. It's great, actually.

• 3:27:03Jocko Willink?

  You wanna hear something crazy? When we first looked into making these jeans.

• 3:27:09Jocko Willink?

  We were talking to people.

• 3:27:12Jocko Willink?

  We were talking to people in the fashion industry, legit.

• 3:27:15Speaker 04

  I, yeah, I understand.

• 3:27:17Jocko Willink?

  You know how much they wanted us to charge for a pair of jeans? American-made jeans? You know what the value placed on American, a hundred percent American-made jeans was? Take a guess how much?

• 3:27:25Speaker 04

  One hundred eighteen dollars.

• 3:27:27Jocko Willink?

  I'm not kidding you. They said the good market price.

• 3:27:32Jocko Willink?

  Four hundred and fifty dollars. Four hundred and fifty dollars for a pair of jeans. This was like in New York City with fashion people.

• 3:27:40Speaker 04

  Right, right.

• 3:27:41Jocko Willink?

  And I like kicked Pete under the table. I'm like, bro, I ain't charging four hundred and fifty dollars for a pair of jeans.

• 3:27:48Speaker 04

  No.

• 3:27:48Jocko Willink?

  That's not happening. And we walked out, I'm like, that's not happening, it's not happening. I was like, he's like, calm down, you know? I was kind of losing it. Cause we know I already don't like fashion people in the first place. Now they want me to charge four hundred and fifty, because they're trying to, they're trying to keep the control of the market.

• 3:28:03Speaker 04

  Right.

• 3:28:03Jocko Willink?

  They're trying to keep that thing elevated, because they want to charge four fifty for their pair of jeans.

• 3:28:08Speaker 04

  Yeah. But you know, the whole idea of charging that much for jeans, like whatever they're doing there? Like, it's not a matter of like, hey, we gotta, you know, and it makes this logistical sense. It's not that, they're doing something.

• 3:28:21Jocko Willink?

  Oh, no, they're inflating the prices.

• 3:28:23Speaker 04

  Yeah, for a reason, like they're doing, what's their thing? What are they doing? Like, that thing?

• 3:28:27Jocko Willink?

  I think, I'll tell you what they're doing. They know that people want to buy American made stuff. They know they can't make it. They want us to price it out of the market, so they don't have to worry about it.

• 3:28:35Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:28:36Jocko Willink?

  That's what they are doing.

• 3:28:37Speaker 04

  That makes sense.

• 3:28:38Jocko Willink?

  Well, I'm playing their games.

• 3:28:40Speaker 04

  Well, the good news is it doesn't cost four hundred and fifty nine, ninety nine, whatever you said. So, boom, there you go. You also got boots on there.

• 3:28:48Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 3:28:48Speaker 04

  By the way, same, American made.

• 3:28:50Jocko Willink?

  Hundred percent.

• 3:28:51Speaker 04

  Bringing back the industry, by the way. Expanding like, geez Louise. As far as geez Louise goes. Bro, I'm saying, there's, there's a lot going on.

• 3:29:01Jocko Willink?

  Louise been deadlifting, just getting jacked. That's what's happening with geez Louise.

• 3:29:05Speaker 04

  Yes, sir. Uh, but yes, so, Origin USA, there's a lot of cool stuff, and jujitsu stuff on there as well.

• 3:29:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you get that gi.

• 3:29:11Speaker 04

  Yeah, you get the gi, if you're getting back into jujitsu, or you get, you're staying in jujitsu, you want another gi.

• 3:29:16Jocko Willink?

  Hopefully you're staying in jujitsu. Good community.

• 3:29:18Speaker 04

  Bad, not.

• 3:29:19Jocko Willink?

  You know, we talked about with Jason, Go Rock. Awesome, good community, jujitsu also, community.

• 3:29:24Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's true. Also, we have a store. It's called Jaco Store. So, boom, if you're on the path, you want to represent, discipline equals freedom. Good. Take the high ground. Or the high ground will take you. It's where you can get your shirts and hoodies and hats and whatnot. Some shorts on there. Utility surfing, swimming, cruising, lifting, jujitsu. I said it. All of it. Everything. They're like hybrid or whatever. Anyway, I've got some shorts on there too. Anyway.

• 3:29:53Jocko Willink?

  Shorts with cargo pockets?

• 3:29:54Speaker 04

  No.

• 3:29:55Jocko Willink?

  Well, you can't be wearing them for swimming or jujitsu if they have the pockets on them. The big pockets for the.

• 3:30:02Speaker 04

  Cargo.

• 3:30:03Jocko Willink?

  Cargo pockets? No, you can have a little cargo pocket on there. Not a freaking baggy like from the Gap store cargo pocket from nineteen ninety-four.

• 3:30:12Speaker 04

  It does not have that. No.

• 3:30:15Jocko Willink?

  But the ha- like the ha- the pockets that you stick your hands into on the front, you can't do jujitsu with those and swimming is not recommended.

• 3:30:21Speaker 04

  Oh, yes, you can.

• 3:30:24Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 3:30:25Speaker 04

  Trust me, you can.

• 3:30:26Jocko Willink?

  Well, you might be able to, but it's not optimal.

• 3:30:28Speaker 04

  Yeah. Well, maybe I'll put like zip. Can you put zippers on them?

• 3:30:31Jocko Willink?

  That would be make it a little bit better. We need to do a pair of shorts with a slim pocket on the leg.

• 3:30:38Speaker 04

  Hmm. No, wait. And I think these already I'll have to double check, but they have like the pocket is kind of it breathes like through so the water can pass through.

• 3:30:48Jocko Willink?

  I'm wearing them right now. They do have that, but that's still.

• 3:30:51Speaker 04

  See?

• 3:30:52Jocko Willink?

  But you know what I'm doing right now? I'm working. I'm podcasting. They're good. They're excellent for podcasting, right?

• 3:30:57Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 3:30:57Jocko Willink?

  They're excellent for cruising for sure.

• 3:30:58Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 3:30:59Jocko Willink?

  Swimming is marginal because even though the water is made to drain out of them, it's still you're there's big pockets holding water. We're not setting. We're not swimming the English Channel.

• 3:31:09Speaker 04

  No, yeah, actually, no, now that I'm thinking of it, you're right.

• 3:31:11Jocko Willink?

  So there's that. And then jujitsu, you're, you know, your toes get caught in there or whatever. So let's redesign.

• 3:31:20Speaker 04

  Yeah, yes, sir.

• 3:31:21Jocko Willink?

  I thought we did redesign.

• 3:31:22Speaker 04

  Uh, well.

• 3:31:23Jocko Willink?

  Are we lagging?

• 3:31:24Speaker 04

  We're working on that one. You know, it's a work in progress or whatever. But the good thing about this is swimming, jujitsu, I know your toes get stuck in there and it's true. But if they're not ideal, because really what's ideal for jujitsu really it's like Spatz and Rashcard. Same thing for swimming. What's ideal for swimming? Go Olympics. Check it out. That's what's ideal for swimming.

• 3:31:44Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 3:31:44Speaker 04

  A lot of us, sometimes we don't want to wear that kind of stuff when we go swimming.

• 3:31:47Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:31:47Speaker 04

  Some of us, I don't know.

• 3:31:48Jocko Willink?

  Understood. If we're not swimming the English Channel, I get it. We can jump in the, in the, in the surf zone.

• 3:31:53Speaker 04

  If you, if, if we're just cruising right now. And then we just find ourselves at the beach. I don't know. Or like, frick, let's go body surfing. You can wear those shorts is what I'm saying.

• 3:32:04Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 3:32:05Speaker 04

  And they're gonna work great.

• 3:32:06Jocko Willink?

  They're gonna be acceptable.

• 3:32:08Speaker 04

  Very acceptable.

• 3:32:09Jocko Willink?

  Not optimal.

• 3:32:11Speaker 04

  They'll be appropriate. How about that?

• 3:32:12Jocko Willink?

  Now, they're really good for normal life.

• 3:32:15Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 3:32:16Jocko Willink?

  Which is what I wear them for. But if I'm gonna roll, I'm gonna put on a different pair of shorts that we need to make.

• 3:32:21Speaker 04

  JacoStore.com. That's where you get all this stuff. You like something, get something. How about that? Including but not limited to the shorts.

• 3:32:28Jocko Willink?

  Right on. Um, subscribe to this podcast if you want to. Also, I have some other podcasts. Jaco Unraveling, me and Daryl Cooper, The Grounded Podcast, Warrior Kid Podcast. We also have that Underground. Look, we don't know what's gonna happen with these platforms. So if something does happen, these platforms will be on JacoUnderground.com. If you want to subscribe to that, it helps us build it. Eight dollars and eighteen cents a month. Thanks for the support. If you can afford it, cool, we'll support you.

• 3:33:00Jocko Willink?

  Email [email protected]. We have a YouTube channel.

• 3:33:06Jocko Willink?

  Which there's a lot of high-level assistant directing happening on there.

• 3:33:10Speaker 04

  Yeah, very high level, for sure.

• 3:33:14Jocko Willink?

  Sarcasm?

• 3:33:15Speaker 04

  Yeah. Actually, I've accepted it factually that, yeah, I dig it. Even like with setup, right? You've been, you know, you've come a long way. You do some great work. So thank you. But yeah, the YouTube channel, video version of this podcast also.

• 3:33:27Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 3:33:28Speaker 04

  By the way, it's becoming more and more a common way to consume, as it were. So yeah, check that out.

• 3:33:34Jocko Willink?

  Origin USA also has a little YouTube channel that you can check out.

• 3:33:41Speaker 04

  It's true. Also, Psychological Warfare, if you don't know what that is, it's an album with tracks. Jaco getting you and me and us all past our moments of weakness that do come every once in a great while. Visitations. Of moments of weakness. Just saying it happens. That's all I'm saying. So psychological warfare will help you with that.

• 3:34:02Jocko Willink?

  Do I have to make a psychological warfare track about postophobia?

• 3:34:05Speaker 04

  See, you know, I had a question mark in my head like, should I even say that? Because it's going to trigger you to start, you know, talking to me about this kind of stuff. And maybe the answer is yes. I don't know. But the current psychological warfare where you can get wherever you buy MP3s. That will help you with weaknesses that it addresses.

• 3:34:24Jocko Willink?

  Check. Also, flipsidecanvas.com, Dakota Meyer. Order some cool stuff to hang on your wall. Got a bunch of books. I just finished the audio version of Final Spin, which is the next book that I have coming out. I think it's coming out November 6th or something like that, which I just realized means I will not be in this area for the Chad 1000X event because I will be on the road. Okay. I just recorded, I just recorded the audio book and it was the first time that I got to see someone's reaction live to the book because there was a, there was a worker.

• 3:35:08Jocko Willink?

  There was a audio engineer.

• 3:35:10Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:35:11Jocko Willink?

  She was named Deb. She was in there working the, working the, the dials and stuff, the switches. She was mixing it. But here's what's freaking awesome. This is what, this is what's fired up. There's funny parts in that book, right? And she, she's outside the glass, right? I'm in the, I'm in the room, right? She's outside the glass and I'm watching her and like I would read a funny line and I can see her. And she'd like laugh and she'd be laughing and like looking at me and like, like nodding her head. And then there's a couple of points, parts in the book that are kind of like fired up, like they're going to go. And she was literally raising her hands. Like I'd look at her. She'd like raise her hands like, ah, like they're going to go. And then that was day one. Lots of setup, you know, you could kind of, you kind of getting to know the characters a little bit.

• 3:35:55Jocko Willink?

  Day two, stuff starts getting a little bit going sideways. Day two, Deb openly weeping that I can visually watch her crying as I'm reading like the.

• 3:36:08Jocko Willink?

  Some parts of the story that are heavy. So final spin, if you want to know what that's all about, check it out.

• 3:36:15Speaker 04

  Dang, that's crazy. That's like, like she was like your little audience.

• 3:36:18Jocko Willink?

  I had an audience of one.

• 3:36:19Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 3:36:20Jocko Willink?

  And you know what? Check this out. She's supposed to be a professional.

• 3:36:23Speaker 04

  I know, bro.

• 3:36:23Jocko Willink?

  Right? No disrespect to them. She is a professional. She did a great job and it was much appreciated. She's not supposed to be in there laughing, cheering and crying, right? That's not right.

• 3:36:35Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:36:36Jocko Willink?

  Hey, would you be stoked if your doctor's doing a surgery on you and like high fiving and laughing? Like, no, right? Right? You wouldn't be stoked on that.

• 3:36:46Speaker 04

  No, no.

• 3:36:47Jocko Willink?

  But I was definitely stoked.

• 3:36:48Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 3:36:48Jocko Willink?

  And it was, think about it's like a, you're right. It was an audience of one.

• 3:36:54Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 3:36:55Jocko Willink?

  And she's not supposed to be showing emotions and she's in there getting emotional, all emotions revealed. So if you wanted to feel some of those emotions, hear about it. Also did a little, the additional, the additional commentary for the audio track is with Good Deal Dave Burke, because he read it and he

• 3:37:15Speaker 04

  interviewed me.

• 3:37:16Jocko Willink?

  And we talked about it. So that's that. Final spin. Check it out. Pre-order it now if you want that first edition. Who knows? With that kind of emotional reaction, you get that first edition, you may be holding on to something special. Holding on to something special. So you like pass on to your kids when they're old enough. I talked to Dave Burke about that. I'm like, hey, would you let your, how old you, how old will your kids have to be before they're allowed to read this book? And he's like, I, he's like, I want them to read it as young as I, they can. But all the, there's swear words in it.

• 3:37:49Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 3:37:50Jocko Willink?

  There's F bombs, quite a few. So he's like, he goes real soon.

• 3:37:56Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 3:37:57Jocko Willink?

  You know, 13, 14. He said, because the perspective is that it gives a person on life so powerful that he wants them to have it. So that's final spin. Leadership Strategy and Tactics Field Manual, The Code of Evaluation of Protocol, Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual, brand new versions out. Way of the Warrior Kit, one, two, three, and four, Miking the Dragons, Hackworth About Face, and of course, Extreme Ownership and the Dichotomy of Leadership that I wrote with my brother Leif Babin. We also have a consulting company. We solve, we solve problems through leadership. Go to eslamfront.com for details on that. If you want us to come and help your company, if you want to come to one of our live events. The next muster is in Las Vegas. October 28th and 29th.

• 3:38:42Jocko Willink?

  So if you want to come to that, FTX, September 20th and 21st. We're getting close. Might have already passed that. We also have an online training academy called Extreme Ownership. Extreme Ownership Academy, extremeownership.com, where you can learn leadership and keep your leadership edge sharp. If you want to help service members, active and retired, their families, Gold Star families. I talked a little bit about the hyperbaric chamber today. And that's one of the, one of the things that Mama Lee's charity organization does is pay for veterans to go into a city and stay for like 30 days and get 30 days worth of

• 3:39:25Jocko Willink?

  hyperbaric treatments that are so helpful. They're even helpful for these kinds of injuries that we talked about today. If you want to donate or you want to get involved, go to AmericasMightyWarriors.org. And if you want more of my pathological pauses, or you need more of Echo's vacant verbalizations, you can find us on the interwebs, on Twitter, on the Gram, on Facebook, Echo's at Echo Charles. I am at Jocko Willink. And once again, for Chad 1000X, go to Chad1000X.com.

• 3:40:08Jocko Willink?

  If you want to check out Sarah, Sarah's Instagram, it's Sarah Wilkinson 7. And then Jason and everything that he's doing on GoRuck. You want to find out where you can get, get involved in that. It's a really good stuff. Check out at GoRuck. And thanks once again to Sarah Wilkinson and Jason McCarthy for joining us today. And thanks to both of you for your service. And thanks for, to both of you for everything that you're doing today to try and help raise awareness and prevent suicide, straight up. And all the veterans out there.

• 3:40:49Jocko Willink?

  You've been through a lot. And you start feeling like maybe you're in that storm. Remember that you can get out of that storm. Ask for help. Get help.

• 3:41:04Jocko Willink?

  There's things that you've been exposed to that can physiologically damage your brain, psychologically damage your brain. That can be fixed.

• 3:41:15Jocko Willink?

  So, talk to someone. Get help. If you need it, please. And the same thing goes to police and law enforcement, firefighters out there, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, Border Patrol, Secret Service, all first responders. You live in a stressful environment. You get exposed to things that can damage you physiologically and psychologically. If you're feeling it,

• 3:41:42Jocko Willink?

  talk to somebody.

• 3:41:45Jocko Willink?

  And it's really the same thing for everybody else out there.

• 3:41:49Jocko Willink?

  Talk to people. There's no shame in asking for help. You don't have to face the darkness alone.

• 3:42:00Jocko Willink?

  Hold on.

• 3:42:03Jocko Willink?

  Ask for help. Take another step.

• 3:42:08Jocko Willink?

  Cause there is light.

• 3:42:11Jocko Willink?

  And however dark it may seem, in that storm, there is light. So take another step.

• 3:42:19Jocko Willink?

  And to Chad Wilkinson.

• 3:42:23Jocko Willink?

  Thank you for your service, brother.

• 3:42:29Jocko Willink?

  And until next time, this is Echo and Jaco. Out.