246: The Only Real Failure is Giving Up. With JP Dinnell

0:00:00 - Opening 0:12:06 - Failure and Success. Keep Striving. W JP Dinnell. 3:32:51 - How to stay on THE PATH. 4:07:04 - Closing Gratitude. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 246 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening. I was

• 0:11Jocko Willink?

  doing what I was doing. I was getting after it, working. It had been five years since I had retired from the Navy.

• 0:25Jocko Willink?

  And in that five years, I had been working hard and, and

• 0:32Jocko Willink?

  listen, I'm, I'm not the guy

• 0:36Jocko Willink?

  that sends happy birthday texts or, or meet you for dinner on a Tuesday night. That's not that, that's just not, I don't know. That's just not really my personality. Now, look, if you want dinner and you come to my house at any time, we'll, the grill is on, we'll, we'll cook steaks. Obviously, no factor. But

• 1:02Jocko Willink?

  when I'm in the zone, I start doing my mission. I get focused on that. That's what I do. And, and I'm not saying that this is a good way to be.

• 1:11Jocko Willink?

  I actually don't think it's a good way to be. I think I get a little target fixation in life and I'm not really great at

• 1:21Jocko Willink?

  maintaining contact with people.

• 1:27Jocko Willink?

  And the fact that I was in the teams my whole life didn't really help because all my friends were team guys. And so they didn't need any kind of consistent communication either. I want, one guy that I went through BUDs with, went through basic SEAL training with in my class. Then I went to Team One with him and then we did three deployments together, three platoon workups, three deployments together. Then we went in a training cell together and this whole time we were roommates the entire time.

• 1:57Jocko Willink?

  And then I left for the East Coast and I didn't say one word to him for two years. Zero. And then I got back and we both ended up at Team Seven and like nothing happened, like high five and all good. And we just picked up and no factor.

• 2:13Jocko Willink?

  And that's just, like I said, it's, I know it's not great, but that's, that's just the way my personality is. And that being said, my friends also know that if they call me.

• 2:27Jocko Willink?

  I'll answer the phone. And if they need something, I will make it happen. And I don't care if I haven't heard from you for a year, or for two years, or for six years.

• 2:39Jocko Willink?

  If you're my friend, I'm ready to rock and roll.

• 2:47Jocko Willink?

  But, most people don't actually like to ask me for help. Most people don't like to ask for help anyways, and they definitely don't want to ask me for help because they don't want me to see that they aren't doing well, or they've made a mistake, or they put themselves in some kind of bad position. So, most of the time, I don't get those calls.

• 3:09Jocko Willink?

  Now, one of the people that I did keep in touch with

• 3:15Jocko Willink?

  was Seth Stone. The Delta Platoon Commander.

• 3:21Jocko Willink?

  Mostly through texts, you know, because he got stationed, you know, he got stationed out of California, so he was in different places, and so mostly texts, sometimes email, occasional phone call, but 95% of the time, text.

• 3:35Jocko Willink?

  And, and just totally good to go. Two words, you know, one word. Little inside jokes.

• 3:45Jocko Willink?

  Maybe if something cool happened. Maybe a picture of the waves if they were good. Maybe a picture of a new board. He would ask me things. He would ask me questions, blunt questions about things, and I would give him blunt answers.

• 4:04Jocko Willink?

  And then he would execute, and he would tell me what's going on. And like I said, these would be in texts, in short texts. I would get a text from him in some foreign country. And it would say, you know, Norway.

• 4:24Jocko Willink?

  Period. And then there'd be another text that would say, "Girls", period. That would be it.

• 4:33Jocko Willink?

  And I knew exactly what was happening.

• 4:38Jocko Willink?

  And if he needed anything, obviously, he'd hit me up.

• 4:43Jocko Willink?

  And I'd give him whatever he needed.

• 4:48Jocko Willink?

  So, one time, he sent me a text.

• 4:54Jocko Willink?

  And it said something like

• 4:57Jocko Willink?

  JP needs help.

• 5:00Jocko Willink?

  Can you take care of him?

• 5:06Jocko Willink?

  And that might not seem that that big of a deal of a text, but

• 5:12Jocko Willink?

  I I knew that there was more to it than just that. I knew what that text actually meant. Cause I knew that JP wouldn't ever ask for help. He wouldn't ask me for it anyways.

• 5:28Jocko Willink?

  Too much pride. Is that a thing? Yeah, it's a thing. So I knew JP wouldn't ask. And I knew that Seth wouldn't ask me either.

• 5:38Jocko Willink?

  He wouldn't want to burden me with anything, but Seth obviously knew that there was something going on for him to send me that text and JP was his guy.

• 5:50Jocko Willink?

  JP had been Seth's point man. And his lead sniper. And he done operation after operation after operation with Seth. In Ramadi.

• 6:04Jocko Willink?

  And JP was always out front and JP was always in danger and JP was always holding the line and JP was also like my brother.

• 6:15Jocko Willink?

  It's kind of like my little brother. I mean, I was a decade older than him. Actually, more than that, I think. He was 22 years old when I met him in 23 when

• 6:29Jocko Willink?

  when I sent him into battle.

• 6:37Jocko Willink?

  And I had no problems with that whatsoever because that's what he was meant to do.

• 6:43Jocko Willink?

  But at this point, when I got this text, JP was in the civilian world.

• 6:51Jocko Willink?

  He'd gotten out of the Navy. And because he was in the civilian world and Seth was still in the Navy. And Seth was working and traveling and wrapped up and all that stuff. Seth couldn't provide any help. At least the amount of help that he wanted to provide. So. That's why Seth hit me up. And I, I, I had been trading some texts with JP occasionally. You know, there's a fight would happen or, you know, we'd talk about UFC or, well, just, just, just basic stuff.

• 7:33Jocko Willink?

  I knew that he was working in a couple of different various places, bouncing around a little bit. Trying to figure things out. But a young JP was meant to go to war. So it was no surprise that things might not be as perfect. As they could be, as he tried to play the role of a civilian in the civilian world. So when Seth asked me to take care of JP, it was only because Seth couldn't do it himself.

• 8:15Jocko Willink?

  And that meant that I had to. And, and people throw the word brotherhood around. But this is what it means. It means 100% commitment anytime, anywhere, forever.

• 8:44Jocko Willink?

  No one gets left behind.

• 8:49Jocko Willink?

  So when Seth asked me to help JP,

• 8:56Jocko Willink?

  I responded to Seth's texts with one word, Roger.

• 9:04Jocko Willink?

  And Seth wrote back, "Thank you."

• 9:10Jocko Willink?

  And that was it. So I started to escalate the idea that had been floating around of getting JP to come work at Echelon Front.

• 9:22Jocko Willink?

  Because what I actually knew,

• 9:26Jocko Willink?

  or what I figured out when I started thinking through this, that it wasn't really help that JP needed, at least not in the traditional sense of the word. What JP needed was a mission.

• 9:43Jocko Willink?

  So he ended up coming on the podcast

• 9:47Jocko Willink?

  exactly 200 episodes ago. Episode 46.

• 9:55Jocko Willink?

  In October of 2016. And if you haven't listened to that episode, then go back and listen to it right now, just to hear the background of JP's experience in younger life and in the teams and in TU Bruiser. But at that time, when he was on the podcast, he needed a mission. So he was actually out. When he came on the podcast, he had come out to observe the first Echelon Front muster.

• 10:24Jocko Willink?

  And that was the beginning of his second career.

• 10:31Jocko Willink?

  It was the beginning of his new mission. He was the first instructor we brought on board at Echelon Front, and he has been here ever since.

• 10:42Jocko Willink?

  And the last time he came on,

• 10:47Jocko Willink?

  maybe you can tell a little bit when you listen to that podcast, but his life was not

• 10:54Jocko Willink?

  in the best place.

• 10:59Jocko Willink?

  He was off the path.

• 11:04Jocko Willink?

  But he's in a totally different place now. A much better place.

• 11:11Jocko Willink?

  And part of the reason for that is because of our friend Seth.

• 11:18Jocko Willink?

  Who was always looking to take care of his guys.

• 11:25Jocko Willink?

  And he passed the word to me.

• 11:29Jocko Willink?

  To get engaged.

• 11:32Jocko Willink?

  And Seth isn't here anymore.

• 11:36Jocko Willink?

  But JP is.

• 11:39Jocko Willink?

  And JP is here tonight to

• 11:45Jocko Willink?

  fill us in on the rest of this story, this backstory. And the lessons that he's learned on this journey.

• 11:57Jocko Willink?

  And how he's climbed out of that place that maybe wasn't ideal. Into where he's at now.

• 12:08Jocko Willink?

  JP? Welcome back, man.

• 12:13JP Dinnell?

  Thank you for having me back. I had no idea Seth ever texted that.

• 12:20Jocko Willink?

  A while ago, I was asking you questions. I was trying to figure out. I was saying, hey, remember when Seth drove and visited you? I was trying to figure out when I was trying to put together the dates. So that I could figure out. How, but I actually didn't want to tell you. I didn't want to tell you that that's what had happened.

• 12:42JP Dinnell?

  Got it.

• 12:44Jocko Willink?

  But I was asking you like, when did you, and when did you come to the muster? And when did Seth see you? I was trying to put together the dates because I have the old texts. But I have your and me, your, our texts I have back until a long time. Whatever Seth's phone number changed in 2017. So I only have like, I don't know. I don't have the full history, at least not on, I couldn't find it. But yeah, that's what happened. He sent me a text that was like, JP needs help. Can you take care of him? And I just wrote back, Roger.

• 13:18JP Dinnell?

  That's awesome.

• 13:19Jocko Willink?

  And you know, you and I, like I said, and as I went through our texts and

• 13:25Jocko Willink?

  You know, I don't know where, but all of a sudden I was like, okay, if I get JP to come to the muster, he's gonna see what's going on. And then he can like,

• 13:35Jocko Willink?

  hook a carabiner into this thing and let's go rock and roll.

• 13:38JP Dinnell?

  Well, it was also, at that time, I was also reaching out to you consistently. And, and I remember specifically, I said, hey, I know the mentor doesn't seek out the mentee. That's why I'm hitting you up. Is there anything I can help with? Um, because you and I were talking one time, you're like, oh, I just did a gig. And I'm like, wait, where was that? And you told me, I'm like, I was 35 minutes from my house. And I remember we were just texting about that. You're like, I had no idea. Sorry. Like I, I don't even know where I'm going until like the day before, according to my calendar. That's how busy and I, I'll be honest, at first I was, when you said that, I'm like,

• 14:16Jocko Willink?

  I remember you telling me you did, like later on, you like, like two years later, you're like, I didn't believe you. And then it was happening to you.

• 14:22JP Dinnell?

  But I get it now because I'm like, wait, what city am I going to next? Oh, okay. Yeah. And yeah, there was, what, last year, I, I don't, I can't remember what month it was. But yeah, I spent five nights at home, like with all the FTXs and musters and everything else like that and engagements. And I was like, oh, yeah, I get that. But yeah, that was, well, I was texting you just, hey, what can I do to help? Is there anything you need help with?

• 14:48Jocko Willink?

  And there was a, from, for me, I just thought you were like, hey, man, if you ever need anything, I thought it was one of those.

• 14:56Jocko Willink?

  I didn't, I didn't understand. I didn't read into it. I should have been like, okay, you know, JP's texted me four times in the last two months saying, hey, if you ever need anything, let me know. I'm an idiot. And I should have been like, oh, okay. I, I need to talk to JP. Instead, I was like, hey, we're all good right now or something.

• 15:15JP Dinnell?

  I could have been a little more aggressive and to the point and clear with my communication and said, because my, my thought was, okay, I've done, I've done sales for a couple of years when I got out. I was doing well. Um, I left that to start my own consulting company. I left doing that very emotional. You know, I didn't really plan out what I was going to be doing. And so, you know, there was just a gap in, in work and, and stuff like that. And I, in my mind, I was like, well, I can sell. I know what they're doing. Like it, it works. I was like, maybe they need somebody to help with sales or, or anything. I was just, I wanted to just to do anything I could just to try to help.

• 15:56JP Dinnell?

  And be back working for you again and life. And, you know, I just, I didn't want to be too aggressive and too pushy.

• 16:03Jocko Willink?

  Check, check this out. Echo Charles. Have you ever seen a movie called The Sixth Sense?

• 16:08JP Dinnell?

  Yes, sir.

• 16:09Jocko Willink?

  JP, have you seen it?

• 16:10JP Dinnell?

  Yes.

• 16:11Jocko Willink?

  You know how like in the end you all of a sudden, the whole picture becomes clear of what happened? That's basically what happened with me was when I got that text from Seth, all of a sudden like all the dots connected. And I, I said to myself, oh, that's what's going on. That's what these texts are. I'm an idiot.

• 16:29JP Dinnell?

  Yeah. I mean, cause during that time, I was helping build up, I was helping a guy build up his training facility in Alabama. It's, it's an awesome facility that they have down there. Things didn't work out between us because of my lack of proper communication with him. You know, I, I dropped the ball on that. And so then I was solely doing my own thing. I was teaching shooting. I was citing in people's hunting rifles for, I was just doing anything I could for extra money, right? Doing construction, repairing fences in the neighborhood for the landlord to help like go towards my rent and, you know, and then I got the call

• 17:08JP Dinnell?

  to, from a, a team guy buddy of ours, Kevin Kemp. And he was like, hey, what are you doing this summer? I'm like, at the time, I'm like, what's wide open right now?

• 17:19JP Dinnell?

  Let me check my schedule. Um, and he said, Hey, um, would you want to be on Transformers five as an extra playing a Navy SEAL? And I said something back to him like pretty smart ass. He's like, no, I'm being serious. Michael Bay is looking for younger looking team guys. I'm like, awesome. What do you need from me? So I sent over there for, you know, I sent what he needed back for me. Didn't hear anything. I was still helping out somebody else with their training company, kind of building that up. And then I was down in Alabama again. So I'm back down in Alabama with another guy. And I get the call from Harry's wife. Harry's an old team guy. He's been in the movie industry for a long time. And she's like, hey, Michael Bay loves your pictures, loves your stuff.

• 18:02JP Dinnell?

  Can you be on a plane tomorrow? I'm like, uh, I, hold on, let me, let me check. Cause in their world, everything runs around them. I'm like, I have a family, I have commitments. And so I talked to the guy, I'm like, hey, here's the opportunity I have. Like, are you good with it? And he was like, dude, that's a great opportunity. Go ahead. I'm like, okay. So we finish our little business dinner down there. It's a six hour drive back to Mississippi. I call Amanda. I explained to her, and she's like, that's amazing. Yes. So I drive all the way back, pack out everything. They're like, oh, you're going up to, you know, Detroit, Michigan area. They're like, that's where they're filming outside of there. You know, don't know how long you're going to be up here. So it's just total open ended.

• 18:47JP Dinnell?

  Don't know how long you're going to be up here. Went up there. We ended up going to the UK, filmed over in the UK as well. You know, it was a really cool experience getting to just see that aspect of it. And, um, uh, which it was cool. What year was that? This was 2016. This is the summer of 2016. Um, and you know, and it's funny, like I got a text from one of my buddies, um, Michael the other day. When, you know, the Sour Apple Sniper came out. He's like, hey, man, I'm super proud of you. He's like, four years ago, you were trying to figure out possibilities of getting paid from Paramount Pictures sooner because they're, they're.

• 19:27JP Dinnell?

  Pay is super slow. They don't care. Like they don't like, oh, you'll get your pay when you get your pay. And a lot of the guys, not just me, we're just like, hey, man, we left other stuff that paid on time to come do this. And now we're not getting paid on time. Like, we, we kind of need our money. And he's like, four years ago, you're trying to figure out how to actually get paid in a timely manner. And now you have your own signature flavor energy drink with, with Jaco. And he's like, that's amazing. And so it's just, it's crazy to see the last four years, what is, what has progressed. Um, so did the filming. And then, um, I was looking at doing some contracting. There's some security work up in the Dakotas on the pipelines I was going to go do.

• 20:09JP Dinnell?

  I had opportunity to go do some security and some long range shooting instruction overseas. And that one, that, that one paid a thousand dollars a day for 70 days. And I'm like,

• 20:19Jocko Willink?

  This was the one that we had to discuss. This was the one that was a big choice.

• 20:26JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, this, that was, I get the, I get the thumbs up on that one.

• 20:32Jocko Willink?

  So the, the muster was going to take place in October, I think.

• 20:35JP Dinnell?

  Yes.

• 20:36Jocko Willink?

  And, you know, I said, hey, this is, I, I've actually looked at the text yesterday. I said, hey, they, uh, we're doing an event, October 14th and 15th, or whatever it was. It would be cool if you could come out and see what we're doing. And you had just gotten this offer to go overseas for a thousand bucks a day for 70 days and make 70 grand.

• 20:55JP Dinnell?

  70 grand when we had, we didn't even, I mean, total between checking and savings, we didn't even have a couple hundred dollars at the time, you know? I'd put my family in a really bad position. And, um, I remember talking to you about that. And the guy, Michael, I'm talking about, I called him for advice as well. After, I called Amanda when I had talked to you, I talked to him, I was trying to get a grasp for the situation before I called Amanda. So I could actually have like a legitimate conversation with her and kind of talk through the opportunities. And, you know, it was, it was awesome. She just kind of let me talk and I already knew the answer. I knew what I needed to do. And she did too. And, you know, she told me, she's like,

• 21:39JP Dinnell?

  you know what the answer is. She's like, you know, Jaco and Leif will never steer you wrong. You know, the opportunity with Jaco and Leif. Is unlike anything else that you've had and the fact that they're giving you this opportunity, you need to take advantage of it. I said, I agree 100%. I just, I guess I needed to hear from her because it's easy. If I was single, that's a no brainer. But when you have a wife and three kids that can be affected by your decisions and I had obviously made some decisions that put them in hard positions. I mean, there was times where we were using gift cards that we'd gotten from Christmas and birthdays and everything to go eat dinner. Like, okay, we're a little tight of money. Guess what? Hey, kids, you guys want Taco Bell? Cool. Yeah. Cause we have a $25 gift card to Taco Bell.

• 22:23JP Dinnell?

  We can go get $15 of the food as a family and then have 10 more for another day. And it was going over to the in-laws and eating with them a lot. And you know, it was just this hard position I didn't want to put my kids in, but then I'm getting this $1,000 a day in front of me. I had another buddy, Steve Arian, who is, I was teaching long range shooting with. He has an awesome consulting and shooting company, Gray Fox Industries. He's always been really good to me and he, he kind of knew I was in that, you know, needed work. And so he always would be like, hey, I'm, I'm offering you this first before I give it to the other instructors that I have. And at the same time, I was already committed to teach shooting with him in Texas and then I was going to be headed for that overseas gig.

• 23:08JP Dinnell?

  And so when I decided and I called you, I called you and you're like, cool. You know, just let me know when you get, you know, when you book your flight, I'll get you connected with Jamie. And I called Steve. I said, hey, you know, here's the opportunity I have. He goes, I can get another instructor to cover down. You know, but he was tied on his, his funds as well. He's like, hey, I'm not going to be able to pay you your travel day. You know, cause I don't have to pay for another instructor. I'm like, I don't care, man. Like the fact that you're cool with me leaving halfway through this course. Dude, thank you so much. Like this, this means a lot to me and.

• 23:44JP Dinnell?

  And so I was already out in Texas. I'd already driven out there. And so I looked through all my old airline accounts that I, because when I traveled a lot doing sales, I had points added up. I'm like, oh, I can, I'll be able to get from Texas, from Love Field to San Diego. I have points to at least get me there. And I was trying to figure out how I was going to get a flight back because we didn't have the money. And, uh, and so we figured out, and I finally, I get the flights booked. And then I remember when I sent you that, you're like, awesome. You connected me to Jamie. And, uh, you had mentioned like, yeah, maybe you can crash at my house. Like you, you can stay with me here. And I was trying to figure out where I was going to stay. But in my mind, my concern was, well, I can't rent a car and we're not going to have enough money to, to Uber.

• 24:29JP Dinnell?

  Yeah. I'm not going to have enough money to Uber anywhere. So I'm like thinking, okay, hey, and then as we got closer to the vet, like Jamie got ahold of me and she's like, hey, we have a room here for you at the hotel where the event's going to be. And that I was so thankful. I'm like, okay, well, I don't need to Uber any of us. Like I can at least Uber from the airport to the hotel. And I remember I even like, looked at it like, I'm like, I can just walk. I can walk there. Like from the airport to that, the hotel is not a big deal. And, um, and so I just, it just worked out, you know, to where I was able to make it out there. And we were going to do whatever we had to get me out there for that opportunity.

• 25:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And you, you camouflage to basically all this from me. The conversations that we had, I thought, you know, you're making a decision that, you know, you said, hey, I got this opportunity uh, to go overseas and make this much a day. I didn't know that, I remember saying to you, look, hey, that's a kind of a, that's, that's a great deal, you know? And if, if you need to go do that, you know, we can hook up later or whatever. I didn't know that you were in the dire straits that you were in because you didn't tell me because.

• 25:32JP Dinnell?

  Because I'm a grown man that put myself in that position. It was nobody else's fault other than mine.

• 25:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And.

• 25:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's one of those things. So when I bring like someone on board, you know, I don't, I don't want to pull the wool over your eyes. And another thing I told you was, hey, if you come to Echelon Front, you may have 50 gigs next year and you may have one.

• 26:00JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 26:00Jocko Willink?

  I don't know. I, we, you know, it's, we're going into the market. I don't know. You know, no one is going to know who you are. No one's gonna, you know, understand who you are. We'll have you on the podcast and people will get a little bit familiar with you, but I don't know what that means. I don't know what that means. I don't know what it's gonna, what it's gonna get you. So I don't know.

• 26:18JP Dinnell?

  Yeah. And you were super transparent and honest. And you said, nobody knows who JP Dinnell is. They are requesting Leif Babin and Jaco. Like that's when they reach out to Echelon Front for speaking, that's who they want. But, you know, and then you said the rest. And I was like, I, I understand a hundred percent. And the other thing that you said that I'll always remember, and you know, it's a little fear of loss that you put in there, but you weren't doing it on purpose. You're just being honest. And this was a very realistic possibility. You said, I don't know when the next time we would be able to link up, like in regards to like, I don't know when I'll be able to get you out to the next event for you to see what we're doing.

• 26:58JP Dinnell?

  And like for me, that was, that was, I mean, not terrifying, but for me, that was, it put me on edge because-

• 27:06Jocko Willink?

  Made you feel like a now or never situation?

• 27:08JP Dinnell?

  Absolutely. It was, we have, I have to do this. And, you know, Amanda understood that a hundred percent. I understood it. My buddy Steve, he understood it as well. I mean, he was super supportive of it. I mean, he even offered, he's like, man, is there anything I could do to help you get out there? He's just a great guy. And I just, I knew the opportunity that I had and I wasn't going to, I mean, what, what's gonna happen? What, what worse of a situation am I gonna be in? I use all my airline points. I use up the little money I had in my PayPal account for Uber because I, you know, with me teaching shooting, some people had bought the Never Settle shirts that I had at the time. Not a lot of people were buying them, but some people would buy them and they'd buy it through PayPal.

• 27:49JP Dinnell?

  So that money I never even transferred to my bank account because that was like a extra savings savings that was out of sight, out of mind that I was able to use.

• 27:58Jocko Willink?

  That was your Uber account?

• 27:59JP Dinnell?

  That was my Uber account.

• 28:02Jocko Willink?

  It's so great. I can't believe it's again, it's, it's a sixth sense thing for me right now, even right now, because I'm also thinking I paid, I paid you to come to the muster because like you, you helped you ran PT and everything, right?

• 28:14JP Dinnell?

  Well, you paid me after we got done recording episode 46 and we were standing outside of the office and you hand me a check and I'm like, I like open up and I'm like, what is it? And I got, pushed it back towards you. I said, no. And you actually got pretty upset. And you said something to me and you, you, you pushed it back towards me. And I was like, okay.

• 28:37Speaker 02

  What do you mean said something? What'd he say? We, of course, we want to know what he said.

• 28:43JP Dinnell?

  Fuck you.

• 28:45JP Dinnell?

  And handed me back the check.

• 28:48JP Dinnell?

  Well, what you didn't know is we had $17 in our bank account total between checking and savings. And the check that you gave me that I was like, I mean, yeah, I mean, that was, but.

• 29:03Jocko Willink?

  See, that's why I said six cents, because when I gave you that check and you looked at it, it looked like I just gave you a check for a million dollars. And, and, and you felt like the look on your face was, it was actually as if it was a million dollars and I was giving it to you. And your look was, this is amazing, but I can't accept this. Right? And that's the look that you had on your face.

• 29:27JP Dinnell?

  I couldn't, I couldn't. But when Jaco says that to you and pushes it back and he legitimately looked like angry with me. I'm like, oh, I've never seen Jaco angry before. Um, yeah. And so, I mean, even getting up to when we recorded episode 46, I'm thankful that Brady was in town and Brady, you know, Lanter, who's been a, you know, trooper from day one with you guys, was there at the muster and he had asked, I believe you, if he could come and just sit to listen. And he paid for the Uber as we're heading up there. I was going to pay for it, but I was like, oh, you know, and he paid for it up there. And I was like, okay. And then you dropped us off at the hotel on the way back.

• 30:14JP Dinnell?

  But uh

• 30:14Jocko Willink?

  That's so cra- it's such a, it's crazy. And you know, I, I've talked about this before, like, when you're in a leadership position, right? And this is me talking, because I know that this happens. No one wants to tell me that they're tired. No one wants to tell me that they don't want to do another mission. No, no one wants to tell me that stuff. And hardly anyone ever does, you know? And no one wants to tell me that, hey, man, I'm really hurting for money right now. What can we do to make this work? No. Instead, you're just like, hey, kids, you're eating ramen.

• 30:46JP Dinnell?

  Well, you know, I mean, I, I shared it on, on episode forty-six. You know, my, my family, there was times that we were really tight on money, like really tight. And there's times that Amanda grew up, they were really tight on money. Like my father-in-law and my father, like I told you before many times, two of the hardest working men I know. I've shared the stories of my dad, you know, growing up, him working construction, him be, he would be coughing up blood because he had pneumonia, he was super sick. It was in the wintertime and he still would go out and frame houses, pour concrete, do brick and block work, roof a house, whatever work he needed to do for ten, twelve, fourteen hour days so that we, we could get paid. So that he could provide for our family. My father-in-law, same way.

• 31:30JP Dinnell?

  He have always two to three jobs at a time. He would come home from work, he would spend some time with Amanda and, and her mom Debbie and, and her brother Nick. And then he would go do some night shift somewhere. He'd come home, get a couple hours of sleep, and then he'd go do his, his, I mean, he was always working. And I, I knew that from times with, with Amanda and my, my understanding is, you know, I put myself in this situation, I can work out of it. Now, thinking back four years later, could I have gone about it a different way? Absolutely. You know, it's like the missions that we would do. You can always look at the mission that you do.

• 32:12JP Dinnell?

  And even though you come out of a mission with success, you look at it and you're like, hey, you know what? If we would have done this, it would have been a little more effective. Hey, if we would have done this, maybe those guys wouldn't have been wounded.

• 32:22JP Dinnell?

  My thing is I put myself in that situation. I had already read Extreme Ownership and Extreme Ownership is like we shared on the last podcast, what regained the marriage for Amanda and I. We were divorced and we were able to get our marriage and our family back together. I knew that I had put myself in that situation. It wasn't anybody else's fault. And at the time, like before I read Extreme Ownership, like when things had fallen apart with some other guys with their contracting companies or the training companies that I was helping out and helping build up, that crept back into me of that blame and I got mad at them and I was upset and frustrated with them.

• 33:02JP Dinnell?

  And then I read Extreme Ownership and I'm like, well, no, actually I could have been more proactive. I could have had better communication. I could have done so many more things that would have ensured that I had success with these other business relationships. And, um, you know, and I just, I needed to work out of it. Now, was my ego involved? For sure. I mean, because I don't know if anybody, it doesn't, man or woman, that wants to go to somebody that they respect, someone that they worked with, a friend, a family member and say, hey, you know, we're hurting financially. No, nobody wants to go do that. What I should have done, like you just said, is been a little more transparent and said, what can we do to work through this? Like?

• 33:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And that's the thing that sucks as I look back because, you know, I gave you this check, which was, you know, it was cool. It was, it was a good, it was, it was some money.

• 33:54JP Dinnell?

  Yes.

• 33:55Jocko Willink?

  But that's not, that didn't get you out of the hole. And I didn't know how big the hole was. I didn't know what your full set. I didn't know you didn't have money. I just didn't know that. I thought, hey, you know, he's got, I knew you were doing other stuff. I know you were teaching shooting, whatever. I knew you had some other things going on and I thought, you know, hey, cool. We'll, we'll slowly, you know, we'll start getting you some gigs. Once you're on the podcast, that'll come out. People start asking about it. We'll get you on the roster. We'll take you to some gigs. You can sit there in the back. You can do some Q and A. And we'll get you, you know, we'll get you ramped up over the next three, four months. No big deal. That's what I'm thinking.

• 34:25JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 34:25Jocko Willink?

  I'm thinking, no big deal. We'll get you ramped up over the next three or four months. And, you know, my attitude in life and, and that attitude reflects very deeply into the way that I run businesses is.

• 34:44Jocko Willink?

  You eat what you kill. And so if you come and work for me and you think, well, I'm just gonna give you money because you showed up. No, I'm not actually gonna do that. If you come and work with me and you start producing results, cool, we split up the results and we go forward and everyone's happy. So what I'm saying is you show up at Echelon Front to start working, you're not getting any money until you start working. Yes. And that took time. And what I didn't realize is you weren't out of that hole yet. And so that puts you for a few more months. Again, this is all me looking back six cents. Now I go, oh, that's what was going on. But it was not, it was not, oh, welcome to Echelon Front. Now everything's good.

• 35:28JP Dinnell?

  No, and, and the way, the way that I had, the, the way that it happened was, was perfect, though. And I'm, I am fully on board with what you just said. And I think, I think if everybody operated that way, society would be a lot better. I, I truly believe that because it, it takes away from that sense of entitlement. And people think that because they're a part of a team that they get to reap the rewards. And it's like, no, like, if, if you are putting out, if you are working, if you're hunting, then you're going to eat. And I knew that. And you told me, you, you and Leif both told me, hey, we are going to give you as much work as you want. If it's there, you, you are the one that needs to tell us like, hey, I need, I need a break.

• 36:12JP Dinnell?

  And I remember laughing when you guys said that. I'm like, yeah, that's okay. That's, that's gonna be a great problem to have. And so we can't, I, I come back from San Diego, the muster is great. Met a lot of amazing troopers at that very first muster. You know, I learned so much at the muster. And that was when, that was my, I am all in. This is what I want to be doing. Like you said, I needed that new mission. And I've talked about this at multiple musters about finding a new mission, because a lot of people without that mission, they're lost. And when we're lost,

• 36:43JP Dinnell?

  Very rarely are you going to actually make any sort of progress. If you're truly lost, you'll make zero progress. If you kind of start to figure out where you're at, then you can start to get some progress. It's like if you're doing land navigation and you don't have a compass and you're out there and all you have is a topographical map. You're completely lost. You have no idea what's going on. So it's the middle of the night. It's really hard to see terrain features in the middle of the night. If you're out in the middle of nowhere, you might be able to see a little bit with the moon and the stars. And if you're really good at being able to rain that, read the terrain, then you might be able to figure out where you're on that map. What you actually need is the ability to look around and, and, and gain some situational awareness.

• 37:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And what you actually need beyond that is you need to have a goal of where you're trying to go to. Cause otherwise you can look at that map all day and sit there because it doesn't matter. You need a map, you need a compass. Yeah, but you need to pick a point on that map and say, okay, this is where I'm trying to get to.

• 37:42JP Dinnell?

  100%.

• 37:43Jocko Willink?

  And this isn't, by the way, we say, we say this all the time to veterans. Hey, you need a new mission when you get out of the military, but it's not just veterans. It's people that graduate from college, people that get laid off from a job, people that leave, you know, their family splits up and all of a sudden they're by themselves. All those situations are situations where you gotta look up and say, okay, what's my new mission? What am I going to do? And if you don't do it, you're sitting out in the middle of the woods without a map, without a compass and without a, without a destination that you're trying to get to.

• 38:09JP Dinnell?

  Absolutely. And so, once I figured out, okay, this was my new mission. This is, this is what I wanted to be doing. It changed my mindset because I, I was at the time where I was just surviving. I was just trying to survive for my family, trying to like, just, I, I, one thing I know is I know I'm smart. I know I'm not super intelligent, like a lot of like the people I work around with these days, like my brother and my sister, very extremely intelligent, but I know I can work hard. And so that's what all I was doing was just working, working, working hard, which is great. There's nothing wrong with hard work. I just wasn't being smart with my hard work.

• 38:51JP Dinnell?

  So I wasn't getting like the momentum and the success that I needed to put my family in a, in a different situation because there was no clear mission. Like I had no why, like.

• 39:04JP Dinnell?

  Well, let me kind of go back on that. My why was providing for my family. That was clear. But in order for that why to provide the results and yield the success that I wanted, man, I really, I wasn't going to be able to do that until I had figured out what that new mission was going to be. And I thought it was going to be starting Never Settle Consulting because I wanted to be teaching shooting tactics and combatives to law enforcement and military to help them out. Like, my heart was big for law enforcement because I saw the lack of training that they had, and that's what I really wanted to do. What I screwed up was, is I didn't come up with a good plan. All the things that I knew to do in the military, all the things that I knew to do as a point man, as a sniper,

• 39:46JP Dinnell?

  like with planning and, you know, just making sure I can execute the highest level. I wasn't doing that as a civilian. So I was failing. And then when I saw what you guys are doing and saw how I could have a, just a seat at the table and the ability to contribute and to provide impact and service and, you know, I've always understood servant leadership. You know, growing up in the church, my parents always explained it to me. I saw it firsthand from family members. And then I saw it firsthand, working directly for Seth. Seth was an amazing leader that served his men. He, he was always about the men. He was always about the mission. He was, he was, it was everybody else but himself.

• 40:31JP Dinnell?

  He always took care of everybody else. And when I saw what you guys were doing here at Echelon Front at the very beginning, that's what I saw. Like, I saw that again. I saw that fulfillment of something that was very similar to what we had in the SEAL teams. And I wanted to be a part of it. That's all I wanted.

• 40:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and, and going back to the analogy of land navigation. You can be a hard worker and you can go and up and down those hills with your rucksack. But if you don't know where you're going, you're all you're doing is sweating a lot and doing a lot of work, but you're not actually making any progress in any direction. And that's, uh, that's not good. And, and I'm sure, you know, I'm sure we talked about this, but from the get go at, at Echelon Front, almost immediately, we were working with not just companies, but we were working with law enforcement. We were working with military units. So I know that was, you said, you, you saw that that's, we were already executing what, you know, what you actually really wanted to do. And then you saw which the, what a great introduction coming to the muster.

• 41:34Jocko Willink?

  And you saw that not only does this apply to law enforcement and military, but it also applies to every business out there. Everyone in a leadership position.

• 41:44JP Dinnell?

  You know, starting my own thing was, it was good. I'm glad I did it. I learned, like I learned some very valuable lessons.

• 41:54JP Dinnell?

  But for, for me to have the opportunity to be a part of what you, you and Leif were doing, it was, it was a good opportunity for me to also learn to check my ego, because I had a lot of people like, man, you need to be doing your own thing. You need to be doing your own business. You write your own book. You need, it's like, you know, it's all about me doing my own thing. And I just, I would be very polite to people that say that. Sometimes I would be a little irritated because I'm super defensive of you and Leif and my, and my boys, you know, I've always been like that. And I know they didn't mean it the wrong way. And I finally would just tell people like, I don't care that it's not my company. What this company is doing is what matters. Like this is what matters. This is what I want to be a part of this. It doesn't need to be my consulting company. That means nothing.

• 42:37JP Dinnell?

  Like, and I know I'm a part of this as it grows. And that was at the very beginning. Like I was, you know, there was this, you need to be doing your own thing from other, you know, people that didn't really know me very well or didn't know you guys very well. Because when I came back from us recording the podcast, I went straight back to what I was doing, teaching shooting, sighting and hunting rifles, um, doing construction, whatever I could do to, to make some ends meet. And, um, I remember I was, I, I got a missed call from Jamie and I, I called her back. I was out at my buddy's property.

• 43:11JP Dinnell?

  He's such a good guy. He would always let me have that. His, his, his family had 107 acres down, down south of us where we lived in Mississippi. Uh, he's a, you know, for former service member, you know, he was wounded overseas. Uh, he was a, he was a cop up in the Memphis area. Then he's working for his family's business. So him and I, we would go shooting all the time. Mike Gaines, great guy. Uh, he was a sniper and he was like, yeah, I zigged when I should have zagged. I got shot. He just always, you know, makes light of the, the situation that he's in. And he, he was another guy that really helped me out because I, he knew kind of the situation I was in. I was trying to make ends for my family. He would let me set up shooting courses and hunt, sighting hunting rifles down at his family's farm for nothing. Cause I was like, hey man, I was like,

• 43:55JP Dinnell?

  we can split the costs. I can pay you guys. He's like, man, my dad just likes having you around down here. And I'm like, okay. You know, his dad. And so I would always offer to pay and he just always was like, nope, nope, nope. And he, so he really helped me out. And I remember I was down there and I was, um, I got a missed call and I called Jamie after I was, you know, sighting in this rifle. And she's like, hey, it's super last minute. I was talking with Jaco. Um, you know, he has an event with, um, Los Angeles County Fire. Uh, it's a full day workshop. Would you be able to make out to San Diego? I said, um, yeah, I went. And she's like, we'd have to get you on a plane tomorrow. Okay. And I called my wife really quick. She said, absolutely. And she's like, and it's, it's not a paid gig, but it's a good opportunity for you to be able to

• 44:39JP Dinnell?

  just go see what Jaco's doing. And, you know, kind of get you in the game. I'm like, yeah, okay. I don't, I don't care. And, uh, she's like, but we're going to book your travel. I'm like, oh, cool. Awesome. Kind of booked my own flight out there. I was like, and this is in October. So we recorded in September, right? Yeah. The muster was in September? I forget. No. No, I think the muster was in October. So this is legitimately the next week. This is the next week. So, okay. And so I was all fired up. I called Amanda. She's like, okay, cool. Yeah. No, no factor. Um, And I remember I was so excited because you know Jamie was like, hey, it's last minute flight. The seats are kind of crappy. I'm like, it's okay. And I flew from Memphis to Atlanta,

• 45:22JP Dinnell?

  and then Atlanta to San Diego. And yeah, and both, both flights, I'm middle seat, back in economy. And I'm just, I just have a huge smile on my face. Like, I couldn't care less, you know, and I just had the mindset of like, I was just so happy that I was getting to do this. It's the same mindset that I had going through BUDS. And in, in training and in combat was, I get to do this. I would always try to remind myself, like, I get to do this. And the fact that I was flying out to San Diego, I was ecstatic. I'm like, man, I would have drove out there. Jamie would have said, hey, we need you by here. I'd be like, alright, it's gonna take me 28 hours. Let's go get something. So I fly there, I'm in the hotel, you come pick me up the next day,

• 46:06JP Dinnell?

  we go up, we do the event, we're driving back down, and I was just, I was smoked. I was just smoked from just the day, the travel. I didn't sleep at all that night in the hotel. I was having a lot of headaches and, and just issues. So anytime I go out and I do a couple days of shooting, at the time, I would get really sick. I'd get headaches, I would throw up, just being around the concussion of just the rifles and shooting a lot. And I remember, we got done with it, we're driving back down, and I had two Never Saddle shirts, I gave you one to give to Echo, and I gave them to you, and I said, hey, if there's anything I can help you guys out with

• 46:50JP Dinnell?

  Echelon Front, I'm like, if there's any gigs, I was like, I just want you to know, like, I'm all in. Like, anything I can do. I was like, I can't keep doing what I'm doing right now. I was like, and I remember you said, well, like, is there anything, like, the VA, like, you were like concerned, because you knew, like, I was having some issues with my brain, and just my ability to focus, and headaches, and sleeping, and stuff like that. And I remember that was like, kind of the first time I'd kind of was, was vulnerable with you and shared with you, I can't keep doing what I'm doing. Like if I could do something with you like this is what I want to do. And you're like, hey, Roger that, which I respected because you've always since day one, you and Leif have always

• 47:32JP Dinnell?

  erred on the side of not over promising anything like just being very transparent and almost underselling stuff. Like just completely underselling stuff, which I've always respected. I've always loved that. And that's one of the things when we were growing the field training exercise team, the experiential leadership training that we that we run Ashland front, I've done that with the team. Like I did that with Cody. I did that with Cowie. I was very blunt and say, hey, this can all go away tomorrow. We could have no training tomorrow. Like you need to understand that. Nothing is guaranteed, even when we do the training, it's still not guaranteed until we get paid by the client. And I, that was what you and Leif had always told me from day one.

• 48:16JP Dinnell?

  Leif and I had a lot of conversations about that as well at the beginning. He just wanted to make sure there was no, I guess, false expectations on my end and I, and I respected that and I loved that. And so I go back to San Diego the next day. Um, I'm sorry. I go back to Mississippi the next day. And then I get a call from, um, from Jamie again. And she said, hey, Leif's doing an event in Fort Worth. You know, would you be able to join? Again, it's like, absolutely. Yes. And I told him like, hey, anything that I can join, talk with Leif, like I'm available. Just if you can just give me more than that, like a next day travel heads up, like we're good to go. And you know, she was, she's been so amazing from the get go

• 48:59JP Dinnell?

  and so helpful. And I've learned, I mean, I could do a whole podcast on what I've learned working with Jamie Cochran, because she's just an amazing human, amazing member of the team. And I've, I've learned a lot from her over the last four years. And, um, and so she's like, okay, here's the dates, you know, I'm going to book your flight and, and everything else like that. And hey, you're going to meet up with Leif and, um, I remember she said, well, you can like wait to link up with Leif or meet up at the hotel. You guys can get like car service together. And again, it was that like, man, I don't, I don't have the money for car service or an Uber.

• 49:38JP Dinnell?

  From DFW to Fort Worth is like this, it's funny because I live there now and I'm like, I thought this is a big, long trip and everything. And I remember she's like, yeah, well, just get, you know, it's easier if I just get car service for you. I was like, yes. Pay for that. And so I linked up with Leif. Uh, we went out to dinner that night and um, then we were at the hotel and I just thought it was so awesome. He's like, hey, let's, let's rehearse everything for tomorrow, even though I wasn't helping present. I was just going to watch him present and then he was going to pull me up for Q and A, but he wanted to rehearse everything with me. And I thought that was great. And um, you know, I, I brought a suit out there. Um, because I said, hey, do you have a suit?

• 50:20JP Dinnell?

  I said, yeah, I was doing sales at a financial company. I have some suits. And so I, I, I brought a suit out there and um, you know, watched Leif and I recorded on my phone. You know, I, I did the audio record, little voice recording thing on your phone of him, of him giving the keynote. He had given me the keynote deck I put on my computer. And so we were just kind of like rehearsing, talking through it together. He pulled me up on stage. We did Q and A and um, you know, I, I just remember I was so excited to be up on, on the stage in front of all these people with Leif. I'm wearing a suit and uh, it just, it was just, I felt like I was making some progress from my situation. Um, even though like financially, there had been no difference.

• 51:05JP Dinnell?

  Like I was starting to see the change in my mind, in my mindset, like my attitude, the way I was thinking of things. And um, I remember this guy asked a question. He said, hey, what's the best counter sniper rifle? What's the best rifle to counter another sniper? And what, what do you think my answer is? My answer is well, 300 Winmac because I played some cat and mouse games with some enemy snipers and it didn't work out well for them. And I'm just going back to straight like that. And Leif goes, actually, and I answered and I'm like, you know, cool. Cause they, they wanted to hear about what type of rifle that I shot.

• 51:42JP Dinnell?

  And Leif goes, actually, the best weapon to counter an enemy sniper is an M1 Abrams tank. He goes, those soldiers came to our aid every single time we needed it. If, if we were having issues with enemy fighters, we'd call in for tank support. They would come in and they would handle that. And that was like a major aha moment for me of this isn't about what we did in Task Unit Bruiser. It's about what we did as Americans fighting together, soldiers, Marines and sailors working together. And I remember, like, I wasn't embarrassed that he corrected me, but it was a noted. This is not about what I did as a sniper.

• 52:23JP Dinnell?

  And I felt embarrassed that I gave that answer about what I did. And it was just, it was a very humbling moment. And then, so we, we get done with the event and I just, I remember sitting there just watching people line up to like, take pictures of Leif and him sign the books. And I was like, man, this is so cool. I'm like, hey, you guys need me to take pictures? I'm really good at taking pictures.

• 52:46JP Dinnell?

  Don't worry, I'm coming for you. I'm really good at taking pictures these days. And, uh, and so we do that event, we go and we grab some, we grab some food, go back to the airport. And, um, we say our goodbyes and he gave me a, he gave, he gives me a check. I'm like, what is this for? And he's like, no, this is for work and you know, this is, you know, what we did today. This is a percentage of it. And you know, it's like, that's, that's how it works. Like you do events, like you get a percentage. He goes, obviously Jaco and I are going to get paid much more than you are. I laughed, I'm like, oh, you think.

• 53:22JP Dinnell?

  But he's like, hey, you know, he's like, you did solid with the Q and A and I appreciate you being here. And he goes, anytime we can do stuff with another instructor, it's always going to be better than just someone by themselves. I look at the check and I'm like, damn it, like this is awkward. Like I just didn't feel like I deserved that. And, and I, and I told him that, he's like, no, you know, he's like, your time is valuable. And that was another really important thing that I learned was he said, your time is valuable. And that's when I started to.

• 53:55JP Dinnell?

  Again, really start to value who I was and my time and what it's worth. Because for a while, I didn't value my time. I didn't. And I think now, like, people that now I get is some of it's fun like, like, oh, Black Friday specials, like the camp overnight to like, get the TV that they're saving $50 on. Like, people are like, oh, but I saved on. I'm like, but you spent 23 hours sleeping on a curb outside of Best Buy to save $50? Like, that's what your time is worth. That's, you know, and so I remember when he said, your time is valuable. That was, I needed to hear that. I knew that, but I just, I needed to hear that from somebody that I really looked up to.

• 54:36JP Dinnell?

  Leif and I went through SQT together. I've always looked up to him as a leader. I know how intelligent. He's brilliant. He's very smart, right? Him and Seth were those leaders in SQT and Andrew Paul as well. They're all like, super smart. I'm like, cool, I got my high school diploma. But I just have always looked up to Leif. And I know Leif also doesn't BS. Leif isn't going to say something that he doesn't believe or think is true. And so when he said, your time is valuable, I said, yeah. On the inside, I'm like, okay, it is, it is valuable. And so I'm sitting at the airport, and I'm sitting at the Dallas-Fort Worth airport, and flying back to Mississippi. And this guy's like, looking at me. And I'm always scanning, like we always are, and I'm always looking around.

• 55:19JP Dinnell?

  And like, he's just looking at me, you know, like a smile, kind of give a head nod. And I'm still, and so, like, he gets up, and I'm like, I'm gonna keep my eye on him. And I see him on his phone, and he's like, looking at me, he's on his phone, and he comes up. And at this point, he's got a big smile. I'm like, okay, not, not a threat. And the other thing, I'm like, man, I don't want to do this at the airport, because then I'm never going to be able to fly again. If I have to defend myself in the airport, it's probably gonna be bad. And the guy has a big old smile. And he's like, hey, are you, are you JP Dinnell? I said, yes, sir. He's like, man, I thought so. He's like, I was just watching you on Jocko Podcast. His name is Stan. Super nice guy. I'm like, oh, that's great. And so we, we connect.

• 56:01JP Dinnell?

  He's like, man, I'd love to get you. He's like, are you part of Echelon Front now? I said, yes, sir. And he said, awesome, man. He's like, maybe I can get you to come out and talk with our company. I'm like, yeah, we can absolutely do that. I'm just like, yes, come on. You want to do it tomorrow? Where are you guys located?

• 56:16Jocko Willink?

  We changed my flight.

• 56:18JP Dinnell?

  Yeah. Well, he was flying back to Mississippi with me.

• 56:20Jocko Willink?

  Oh, we're good.

• 56:20JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, we're good. He's down in Tupelo. And, And so we, we fly back and, you know, I talked to him a little bit after the flight and then we, we kind of cut out. And, um, it was again, back to same thing, go home, change out, working construction. And then at the time, um, my buddy Jared White, he, he had already built me this amazing rifle. Uh, it's an ARSR platform and it's probably one of the best AR platform guns I've ever shot. He is amazing at what he does and he's like, hey man, he's like, I have, I have a long range rifle. I want to give to you as a gift. I was like, what? And he's like, yeah. And I was like, okay.

• 57:01JP Dinnell?

  And so I, I come up and I go, I meet up with him. He's outside the Nashville area. Dial it like, confirm the dope on this gun. I mean, it is amazing. It's the same gun that I shot in the go time series for, for Origin and Jaco Fuel. And so I, I confirm the dope on it, go out to 300, confirm, go to 500, like dial in the dope he says that I should be having. And there's these five targets and I shoot from left to right and it's getting smaller each target as you're going down. I'm like boom, ding, boom, ding, like working my way. Last one, I like, I paused cause I see the wind kind of picking up a little bit. And it wasn't just the wind like in front of the target, but like, I'm like looking at the wind the whole way down there.

• 57:45JP Dinnell?

  So I just hold off to the right edge of the target, boom, dink center mass. And the, and he's like, man, that's nice. And the guy next to him, that guy gets pissed off. He's like, I've been trying to shoot that target for two months and I have never hit it. It was a two and a half inch target at 500 yards. And I'm boom, dead center. That is a half minute of angle gun that he built for me. I mean, it is, and this is, we're shooting factory off the shelf ammo that you can buy it from anywhere. 6.5 Creedmoor, beautiful weapon. So I'm like, man, this is amazing. So we shoot a little bit more. Well, he doesn't tell the guy like my background, like, and the guy was like, let's see first time shooting this gun. I'm like, yeah, you just, you know? And so we hang out, we go grab some food. I'm like, man, can I get you some, like, can we get lunch or whatever?

• 58:30JP Dinnell?

  He's like, yes. We go grab some food. And I'm again, super tight, but I'm like, man, like he just built me this amazing, I can at least buy him lunch. And I'm like, try and calculate gas money to get back and everything as well. And, uh, and yeah, I know he's always done construction and he was talking to me about some jobs. And I said, Hey, if you ever need help with any of your jobs, I would love to work with you. I, I love construction. I love working with my hands. I was like, and I could use the work if, if you need it. He's like, okay, yeah, man. I appreciate it. And I like, I drive back and I think I followed up with them. I said, man, thanks again. This gun is amazing. This is like ridiculous to, I was like, I owe you big time. He's like, no, man, you don't owe me anything. He's like, I just really appreciate your service. And he's like,

• 59:13JP Dinnell?

  it's, you know, you deserve to have a, he's like, you're a badass sniper that should have a badass sniper rifle. I'm like, well, I'm not a badass sniper, but I appreciate the badass sniper rifle. And he hits me up and he's like, Hey, you know, do you still want to work construction with me? He was like, I could do something. We could do something on Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. I said, Yeah, absolutely. And so we start that, um, and tour. And this is, I'm still like, I'm doing my brief, like every day. I am rehearsing my Echelon front keynote legitimately at this time, four to six hours a day. Like Amanda, like I'd be in my office, I'd be in the, I would pick different locations in our house. And in Mississippi,

• 59:56JP Dinnell?

  when we got back together, we were in a two bedroom house that was, I mean, this probably the square footage of this podcast recording room and the locker room next to us. That was about the size of the whole house. Two bedrooms, you know, we had no kitchen because that's, I mean, we had a kitchen. We had no dining room area because that's where the office was. We would eat in the living room on TV trays. Like, you know, that was where we'd have our family dinner. Like we, we didn't actually sit at a table unless we went over to our in-laws. And so. I would be practicing my keynote, four to six hours a day legitimately, like going through it, listening to Leif's keynote, clicking along, like making it my own, kind of doing

• 1:00:37JP Dinnell?

  some tweaks, talking with you and Leif here and there. And then this opportunity for me to start working with my buddy Jared, I said, yeah, absolutely. So I would wake up at three in the morning on Wednesday and I would drive up to Nashville from South Haven, Mississippi, where we live. Well, there's like a three, three and a half hour drive. Well, guess what? That was three repetitions through the keynote. So I would be driving, I'd have my laptop at an angle. So I'd put my backpack in front of the passenger seat. I put my laptop at an angle and I had the clicker. And while I was driving, I would list, I was playing Leif's audio of the keynote while I was clicking through and watching the slides as I'm driving

• 1:01:22JP Dinnell?

  and just kind of listening and getting like the flow down. And I would do that and I would, I would get up there, I'd work construction with him. And then I, he had a bed up in his attic that I would crash in. And so I'd crash there. We'd get done with the day, I'd do another like two hours of rehearsing. I'd wake up a few hours early. I would do a few hours of rehearsing in the morning, go work construction with him. And I would do this Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and Friday I would drive back. And then I would spend some time with Amanda and the kids. Well, my buddy Lee opened up a Marco's Pizza in South Haven. We used to work at the financial company together. He invested in the franchise. And so of course Amanda and I were supporting him, we're there, we're like, oh, this is

• 1:02:07JP Dinnell?

  awesome. The kids are like, this pizza's really good. I'm like, yeah, this is awesome. I'm like, hey, Lee, this is great. I'm super proud of you. This is awesome. I said, hey, if you ever need help, like with drivers, let me know. He's like, oh, man, you don't want to be doing that. I'm like, no, it's fine. I was like, if you ever need help, just let me know. Like, I would love to help you out. And he kind of like, we went back and forth enough. Finally, I was like, hey, If you need some help with a driver, I would like to be a delivery driver for you. He's like, oh, hey, man. Yeah, I could actually, I could actually use a good, reliable like driver. That would be great. And I'm like, okay, cool. Man, I had like the absolute, probably nicest vehicle of any delivery driver at the time.

• 1:02:48JP Dinnell?

  It was my 2015 Toyota Tundra that was lifted and like, I mean, it was awesome. So I would do the construction with Jared, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, doing the rehearsals in the morning, rehearsals in the evening. When I drive back on Friday, it was another three hours of doing the rehearsals through the keynote. I would see Amanda and the kids. She would usually be over at her parents at this time. I would go back home. I would take a quick shower. I would throw on my polo, throw on my Marcos Pizza hat. I would go in, I'd clock in and I would deliver pizzas until midnight. And then after midnight, most drivers would leave and I was like, hey, I can help close out the,

• 1:03:27JP Dinnell?

  the store. Cause I needed that extra hour of minimum wage because that extra 625 was, I was like, I will take anything and everything I can at this moment. And so I would, that's what I would do. I would deliver pizzas on the weekend and then I would be, I would come home from delivering pizzas around 1:30, 2:00 ish in the morning. By the time we got done cleaning up the kitchen and I would get online and see if anybody ordered any Never Settle t-shirts. And because we had talked about on the podcast, there's a good amount of orders that started to come through. And so I would fulfill orders until three or four in the morning and I would crawl into bed with Amanda and the kids. And she would wake me up, like when the kids would get up, she would get me a cup of coffee and I would, that's why I would,

• 1:04:11JP Dinnell?

  I'd spend some time with them on Saturday and Sunday we'd go to church and I would, you know, do the same thing in the evenings. And yeah, I was doing construction.

• 1:04:21JP Dinnell?

  My landlord had some fences that he needed repaired on some of his rentals. So I would go do that and I would exchange him rent instead of paying rent. I remember one time I, and this was at the very beginning. And Jamie's like, hey, you have a gig that's going to be in March. You know, the client wants to do a pre-event call with you. I'm like, okay, awesome. And so I was sitting, I stopped doing, fixing fences at this person's house. I went and sat in the car and I did my pre-event call with the client. Got done with it, took all my notes, took a picture of it, emailed it to myself. So I could have like an email copy, the photocopy, I had the digital copy of the notes on my phone. I had everything and went back and finished repairing these fences.

• 1:05:04JP Dinnell?

  So I could exchange rent for a couple of months with the landlord. And yeah, I was doing everything, everything I could. And then you or Jamie reached out and said, hey, Jaco is going to be doing a thing in Nashville. How far away is that from you? I said, well, I'm going to be right up there. I'm actually helping a buddy. And so I reached out to my buddy and Jared and I said, hey, you know, I believe it was like, hey, next week, do you mind if I take a day off? Like, could I miss out on Thursday? And he said, yeah, absolutely. What's going on? I said, well, Jaco's doing an event. I'm going to be, yeah, I need to go with him. And he said, yeah, dude, he's a big fan of yours, listens to podcasts. And, and he was like, yeah, anything you need, let me know.

• 1:05:48JP Dinnell?

  And so I was working construction with him, got done with my day, came, met up with you at the hotel. We did our rehearsals, which were awesome seeing you do rehearsals. And then you were trying to like have me do rehearsals and I was just, the whole big brother effect, like I couldn't even like talk in front of Jaco in the room. I just, yeah, it was, it was too much. So we go do the event and I remember, I thought I was going to be early and I text you and I said, hey, headed that way. Where do you want to meet? Like I'm thinking, I'm cool. I'll be a little early. And you said, I'm sitting in the front, at one of the front tables already. I'm like, okay. Jaco gets there really early.

• 1:06:32JP Dinnell?

  And so I remember that was the major lesson for me from that little interaction was anytime you're doing something with a client, it's about an hour ahead of time. And you explained to me the reason why is because you have to go through all the different, you know, you want to make sure that everything's loaded properly. And I didn't know that you'd been down that there that early. I'm like, okay. So I go, I sit, a same thing. I record your keynote and it was on the dot to the hour, like hour hit right as you were doing your closing like thank you slide. I was like, that's impressive. And you knew it and you knew it. And so you come

• 1:07:13JP Dinnell?

  off stage and the guy goes up on stage. He's like, man, must be a Navy SEAL thing. 60 minutes on the dot. And everyone's like, ah, like, like, just, you know, applauding and, you know, it was, it was really cool. And I remember you said, you're like, man, when you hit that mark, when you hit the mark within a minute, it's like you coming down on a free fall jump and you hit the X on the drop zone. You're like, it feels so good. You just hit that. And I was like, okay, timing, you know, I just, I'm taking all these like notes as I'm interacting with you and Leif and listening. And I'm like, okay, timing, like, that's obviously very important for what we're doing. And, and so I, we go to a breakout and they wanted you to do another little breakout

• 1:07:57JP Dinnell?

  training. And I asked you, I'm like, well, what are you going to do? You're like, I'm just going to open up and talk. I'm like, oh, okay. And you're like, but I have slides in case nobody is talking, interacting, that I can talk through that will get engagement. And if not, then I'm just getting, I'm gonna give another brief on some other things that I think are as important for their business.

• 1:08:16Jocko Willink?

  So that right there is a primary plan, secondary and tertiary?

• 1:08:19JP Dinnell?

  Yep. 100%. And these are all the things that I'm like, in my mind, like relating back to military. And it was cool because I was seeing like the change in my mindset. Like I could feel it. I was excited. I was engaged. I felt like I was planning operations like we did in Ramadi. I felt like it was just, I was having that sense of fulfillment again. And that's what a lot of people struggle with. And you and I have talked about this a lot. And I know Leif and I have talked about this a lot. Veterans and first responders and law enforcement officers and firefighters and EMS. They struggle when they don't have that sense of purpose anymore. And if you want to take it outside, like you said, it's humans in general. Look at college athletes, right?

• 1:09:04JP Dinnell?

  They think they're going to go to the professionals and then they don't. And what do they do? It's like one or the other. They either thrive in a civilian world and they find a job with a purpose and they can do all that drive and their hard, all the hard work ethics that they had to bring them to that high level college athlete level. Or they just, everything falls apart and there is like, they're like Napoleon Dynamite's uncle who's talking about like, hey, if coach would have put me in, we would have won. It's like, okay, cool. Yeah, probably not, dude. And so I just remember this, this change in my mindset starting to happen when I was just surrounded again. And I was thinking of like, this is what I need to be doing.

• 1:09:43JP Dinnell?

  And so I, I do that day with you and you brought me up to interact and, and provide, you know, some responses and answers to different questions that were coming about. And I remember I felt really comfortable up there. Like I wasn't nervous. Like when I was sitting in the hotel room with you, like just trying to go through the slides, I was, uh, uh, you know, I was, it was horrible. I wish we would have like video footage of some of that, because that would be awesome.

• 1:10:11Jocko Willink?

  I wish we had that too, because, um, and now this is like the big joke at Echelon Front, that everybody, when they have to brief me sucks. And it's a disaster and it's like, they freak out and then everyone's awesome. And actually, you know, when you spoke at the muster for the first time, you're, we went through the rehearsal and it was just a total disaster. And you, and see, I had worked with you at Trade at, and so I'd seen you brief a ton and I knew what you were going to do. But you walked out of the room and Leif is like, bro, he's like, dude, I don't know. And I go, he'll, he'll knock this thing out. He's going to crush this thing. I go, he just freaks out in front of me and he's like, Roger that. And I said, you know, we'll do it. The other thing that sucks about this whole thing is.

• 1:10:57Jocko Willink?

  You know, you were going through like, again, I just, I just have to point this out because it's such a good leadership lesson to learn for me and for everybody. You're going through like these real struggles of driving all this way, working construction, or delivering freaking pizza. You're doing all that and I don't know it. I think you're teaching shoot, like you know, you're in Mississippi, I'm in California. Look, you, you, you, you teach shooting. I know you and people pay you to teach shooting. I'm like, okay, cool. You know, he's going to do that. I'm not even, it's not even entering my mind that you have a freaking pizza hat on and you're delivering pizza. That's not even entering my mind. You never said a word about it and I didn't, I didn't dig enough to be like, hey, bro,

• 1:11:39Jocko Willink?

  how is this working? How is everything going? You know, and that's totally my fault for not understanding and not doing enough research. And not having a good enough relationship with you where you'd be like, bro, you know what? I'm going to have trouble paying rent this month. Like if I would have known that, I would have been like, oh, cool. No, actually you're going to have no trouble paying month rent ever again. Here, watch this. Game over, done. And

• 1:12:08Jocko Willink?

  yeah, so that sucks. And the weird thing is I'm trying to think like what puts you into this mindset. And then what I realized what puts you into this mindset is there's a lot of people that they, they read Extreme Ownership or they come to the muster or they, they listen to the podcast. And what they think is, yeah, you know, I wish that person would have ownership and I wish this person would act that way. And they start, they start thinking about how everyone else should take ownership. And so in this process where I would love for you to say to me, hey, hey, Jaco, I need a little bit of like to make ends meet and, and give me a stable base right now. Can you help me out? Well, I would love to say that. I would love to have had you say that to me. What you're thinking is this is my fault and I'm going to fix it.

• 1:12:53JP Dinnell?

  And it was 100% my fault. 100% and I was on the path to fixing it. Because of good opportunities that I had from my buddy Jared, my buddy Steve, you know, that I was teaching shooting, you know, I was, I was. Doing construction, Lee, allowing me to come deliver pizzas. Like, these were great opportunities that I had and I was, you know, my landlord willing to trade. Oh, you want to, you want to replace some fences and, and do some maintenance on, on some of the properties? Like to trade out rent? Okay. Like, these were opportunities that were actually helping and then fulfilling online T-shirt orders. These were all things that were making ends meet that I'm,

• 1:13:37JP Dinnell?

  like, I don't think if I would have come to you and said, hey, I'm having, and you're like, hey, don't worry about this. I don't think that would have made the situation better. Honestly, I don't because I, I don't think that makes any situation better for anybody. It's, you have to grind, you have to work through these things. And if you allowed yourself to get in a situation, you have to get yourself out of the situation. You absolutely have to get yourself out of the situation. Now, I understand what you're saying from a leadership standpoint. I, I get that a hundred percent, but this was something that I had to get myself out of. Because it, it doesn't, you can't achieve success for somebody else. They have to do it themselves. They have to actually want to do it themselves.

• 1:14:18Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And you know, what I don't want to do is make people think, hey, JP sucked it up and I'm going to suck it up too. And, and as I was just thinking through this, you, look, you were in a really bad spot, but you actually, your head was still above water, right? It was tough. You were treading water hard, but if it got to a point, I would hope that if it got to a point where, you know, you were going to be homeless or whatever, you would have been like, hey, hey, Jaco,

• 1:14:50Jocko Willink?

  here's what's going on, man. And I would have been like, hey, Roger that. And you would probably said, listen, I need, I need a loan. I need money right now and I'll pay you back or whatever, but right now this is where I'm at. And so, so maybe it's the fact that as low as you got, you didn't quite get to a point where you were drowning. And as long as you weren't drowning, you're like, hey, I'm going to figure this out.

• 1:15:14JP Dinnell?

  Yes, I still, I'm telling you, I still wouldn't have come to you and asked for that because I don't think that's the right answer. I put in actually a thing at Lowe's to do loss prevention, right? And I guess I wasn't qualified enough because I didn't get the job at Lowe's to do loss prevention. And I knew, you know what, the other thing I could have done that I actually had talked to Amanda about was like, hey, once you and Amanda, you, once you and the kids go to sleep, I can go restock the shelves at Walmart. I can go do that for four or five hours every single night. Get a couple, you know, I could get enough sleep throughout the day to, to make those things happen. And these were legitimate conversations that we had that I could do. The other thing is, you know, I, and I was looking to get back into the military for a while.

• 1:15:56JP Dinnell?

  That's one of the times I actually called you, actually I sent you a tweet and I said, hey, give me a call. And you're like, why didn't you just text me? I said, well, cause I know if you saw that, you'd give me a call and people would say, why is he saying, give me a call? And they would, I was trying to like sway some social media followers to come see what I was doing. Um, but I was actually trying to get back and this is before all this was trying to get back in the military for a while. There's an, I had enough options. I had, there's, there's plenty of options for me to go out there.

• 1:16:24Jocko Willink?

  That's what I'm saying. You didn't act, you weren't actually drowning.

• 1:16:26JP Dinnell?

  No, nobody.

• 1:16:28Jocko Willink?

  But, but what I'm saying is if, if there's someone listening right now, that's like drowning.

• 1:16:33JP Dinnell?

  Then you ask.

• 1:16:33Jocko Willink?

  Then you have to ask for help. And you know what, man, I have had friends, mutual friends of ours, people that we know, people that you don't know that I, you know, whatever. I've had plenty of friends that have come to me and been like, hey, man, this is what's going on and, and I need some help. And I've been like, Roger, you know, that's what I talked about when I opened this up. Like I've had plenty of people come to me and say, this is what's going on. I need help. And I've said, Roger that, what do you need? I, I mean, dude, I had Seth, Seth was, Seth was freaking buying a house. And he was like, hey, I'm whatever, $38,000 short. And then I also need money in my bank account to show that I have the reserves. And I was like, cool, come pick up a check, like done, no, no questions asked.

• 1:17:18Jocko Willink?

  Not, not like, what's the payment plan? It's like, no, done, done deal, done deal, no factor.

• 1:17:24Jocko Willink?

  And you know, I think that's, I just want to make sure people aren't thinking like, hey, just don't ever come ask for help. If you're, if you're treading water and you're above water and you can still make some progress, awesome. Yes, I totally agree. Figure it out. But if you're gonna drown, you need, you need to put your hand up and you need to ask for help. That's what you need to do. That's what your friends are there for.

• 1:17:47JP Dinnell?

  Yeah. No, I, I, I understand what you're saying. And I definitely could have reached out. I didn't feel that I needed to. Like you said, I wasn't drowning and I have no problem doing whatever I have to do to make ends meet. And I will, like, I mean, there was one time just in the neighborhood, like, I just had the idea. And so what I did is I asked people if they wanted their addresses spray painted on the curb in front of their mailbox. So it was easy to identify. And I went around doing that. And yeah, I mean, I get the, get the template, do the white paint down, let it kind of dry, put the template over it, spray paint their

• 1:18:28JP Dinnell?

  address. That was easy. Boom. Quick cash would go around. I would do that sometime.

• 1:18:33Jocko Willink?

  How much would you charge for that?

• 1:18:34JP Dinnell?

  $25.

• 1:18:35Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 1:18:36JP Dinnell?

  Yeah. Go do enough of those. You're, you're, you're okay. But you know,

• 1:18:41Jocko Willink?

  What does it take 15 minutes?

• 1:18:43JP Dinnell?

  Maybe.

• 1:18:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So you're talking a hundred bucks an hour?

• 1:18:46JP Dinnell?

  Maybe. Yeah, maybe 15. The first couple of times it was, I was like, I need to actually process for this. So that was, you know, at the very beginning, like you said, you didn't know. And then Jamie says, hey, December 15th, December 14th, we, you're gonna have your first gig. You're gonna be doing a keynote. It's 110 people. It's their company. It's a safety stand down.

• 1:19:15JP Dinnell?

  And I was like, okay, cool. And it's gonna be in an auditorium and.

• 1:19:22JP Dinnell?

  So I was, I was excited about that, but you know, a little nervous like, okay, what am I going to be doing for this first time? And I was again, practicing my keynote at this time, about six to seven, sometimes eight hours a day. Any free moment I had, if I had a free hour, I was doing it. I was, I was doing like the keynote, just listening to your audio, listening to LAYF's audio. I'd go back and forth between the two audios. I had my brief put together and then I started to, to make it my own.

• 1:19:49Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 1:19:50JP Dinnell?

  And um, I remember the first time that I had to, it was over Skype. I was going to give the presentation to you and LAYF. Amanda was like, okay, her and the kids were going to be gone. I stacked up all this stuff in my living room to where the computer would be eye level. Took everything off the walls behind me, had my clicker, had everything and we, we did the keynote. Um, I did it for you guys. I was like right at the, at the hour mark. So I was like excited that I had hit that time. Uh, and then we did Q and A and I remember it would, I was proud of myself when, when LAYF said, JP, you've obviously done a good amount of prep for this. That was a good job. Now let's do some mock Q and A.

• 1:20:36JP Dinnell?

  And like, that was the feedback that I got from you guys because I had, I don't even know how many hours of this presentation I had worked through.

• 1:20:44Jocko Willink?

  I was gonna say, LAYF was thinking you did like three hours of practice, but you did 3,000.

• 1:20:49JP Dinnell?

  Close to it, you know? I mean, I mean hundreds of hours legitimately of, of just planning and, and just going through it and just making sure that I knew. And I would, I would make it to where like even like if I didn't, I, I wanted to be able to do it to where I, if I couldn't see the advanced slide, like I would practice different ways where the computer was behind me, like representing the screen. And I would, I would, I would do that and I would get into my little rhythm of like, hey, as you can see, to make sure I was still on the right slide, um, practice using reflections off of like pictures or mirrors or stuff to see where I was at on stuff behind me. Just try to put myself in bad situations so that I could go through it. Um, and then I did that, that first keynote.

• 1:21:33JP Dinnell?

  I was in Denver, Colorado and you know, it was awesome.

• 1:21:37Jocko Willink?

  This is in December.

• 1:21:38JP Dinnell?

  December 14th.

• 1:21:39Jocko Willink?

  So it was October, November, December. So, so that those were like you struggling through and then finally here comes your first gig.

• 1:21:48JP Dinnell?

  Get my first gig. I remember when I got there, like I took a picture of all the lineup because there's their safety stand down thing. And so they had all these other speakers there and every other one of them was like Dr. Dr. PhD, Dr. P. Like all this list and then JP Denal.

• 1:22:06Jocko Willink?

  Like what is JP? What's a JP? What does JP stand for?

• 1:22:08JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, what does JP stand for? And I remember I sent you that picture to you and Leif and your response was something along the lines of better get used to that. And I was just awesome, you know? And then, so I go down there, there's a break before I talk. I get my computer set up. I have my water, have like everything kind of like set up for me. About halfway through the audio, like the, the sound goes out in this place, microphone goes out. I'm like, okay. Well, it was an auditorium. So I'm like, cool. Just project. Well, I just remember like everyone like being on their phones while I'm talking. And I was like, oh my gosh, like this, I suck. Like I suck. And then it clicked. They would

• 1:22:52JP Dinnell?

  get on their phones every time I clicked the next slide so that they could take notes. You remember like people are using their phones, they're using technology, people are taking pictures, they're typing in the notes. And then when they done, they would put their phone away. And it was just that, that moment of like fear. And then it like, I was able to put it together. Got done, gave the keynote, went and had lunch with a buddy. The company requested like, hey, if you can hang out, we'd like to have like have dinner. So I went back, met up with them. And then the next day I flew back and yeah, had nothing for December, the rest of December. And then my next gig was in, was in January. And so

• 1:23:33JP Dinnell?

  I was going down Key West, Florida. I'm like, this is awesome. So go down there. Um, fly down to Key West or fly down to one of the airports and then it was like an hour and a half Uber ride down to where I was going to be at, went to the event, was kind of doing my research, like wanted to find the room that we're going to be talking in. And um, I used my credit card to jimmy open the door because there's like, you know, older like hotel in Key West, Florida, like easy to break into everything there. So I use my credit card, get in, I go into the, like, check out the room that I'm going to be speaking in. There's nothing set up at all. And I'm, and I'm thinking, well, we start at like 7:00 AM.

• 1:24:17JP Dinnell?

  And so I text the point of contact and I said, hey, there's like, there's nothing set up in the room here. And the response was like, I thought you were bringing everything. And so there was some major miscommunication there. And I said, well, no, I brought my computer and the adapters and like the clicker. Everything else is supposed to be on you guys. And the guy, the guy was super nice. He's like, oh, well, he had been, he was at dinner with a group, they'd bought, all been drinking. And so he comes in, I, I kind of showed him the room. He's like, so what do we need? I'm like, we need a screen, a projector, a power source. And so we went down to the front desk and like was talking to somebody. Well, it's, it's like, we're, we're like 11 o'clock

• 1:25:02JP Dinnell?

  at this point in time. And so we kind of told him like, hey, this is what we need. And they're like, well, we can't do anything. Like, we start at seven. And the guy, and the guy said like, hey, we, we've rented out this many rooms for this many days. Like this needs to happen. And the front desk lady was like, okay, let me see what I can do. Went and found this guy that could help us out. And we got everything set up that night. And that was for me, it was like this confirmation of why it's important to do your recon and why you should take the extra time, go check out the situation, gain as much situational awareness as you can before you go into. An environment and I'm glad that I did because if we would have done it the next morning, nothing would have been set up. And so everything got set up. I'm doing a half day workshop and it was like my second gig, I'm doing a half day workshop solo. And I just remember like trying

• 1:25:47JP Dinnell?

  to talk with you and Leif. I'm like, how do you guys do workshops? Like, what am I doing? You guys gave me the template. We talked through it and um, major lesson learned of a failure on my part is make sure your watch syncs with the new time zone. Because I'm like, oh, I'm on time, I'm good to go. Well, you go from Mississippi to Florida, there's an hour difference. And I went over forty seven minutes over my time that I was supposed to have. And I remember one of the guys was like, hey, you're gonna be getting done soon. I'm like, yeah, you know, we've got like twenty minutes, I'll be wrapping it up. He goes, you're supposed to be done forty minutes ago.

• 1:26:26JP Dinnell?

  I was like, what? And I'm like, hmm, my watch didn't change time zones. That's a hundred percent my fault for not syncing that. I'm like, okay, give me, give me one minute. And so I go, I changed like my PowerPoint slides around, I just go straight to the closing. And I just, you know, talk, they were super cool. They were, they were good with it. They were loving it. But you know, it's a corporate retreat for them. So they had other stuff that they're supposed to be going through. And I just, I addressed their group and I said, hey, you know what? I completely failed on the time. Like, this is what happened. You know, hey, here's a recap of the day. We kind of talked through everything and I closed it out and it was good to go. And um, you know, so I

• 1:27:07JP Dinnell?

  going out and I said, hey, you know, do you, do you have confirmation of the car service? That so I said, he's like, oh, no, we don't. And I'm like, hmm, okay. So I tried to call Lynn and Jamie to see and they weren't available. And so I was like, oh, man, I'm like, that's gonna be a really expensive Uber. I don't know if I have it. And so I got the Uber and it was like, it was like a hundred and thirty dollar Uber to get back. And I had like a hundred and forty dollars in that PayPal account. And it was like, okay, cool. Go back. Well, when I'm flying back, it's Amanda and I's anniversary. And it was, it was snowing in Mississippi when I get back. And so we spent a little bit of time together and uh, Lee, I shoot Leah text,

• 1:27:52JP Dinnell?

  I'm like, hey, do you need a driver tonight? My truck is four wheel drive. He said, it's, isn't it your anniversary? I said, Do you need a driver? He said, when can you be here? And so I told Amanda and I said, hey, do you care if I, I know it's our anniversary, but we need the money. I'm going to go deliver pizzas. She's like, okay. You know, I was fully supportive of it. And, um, and so that was a super humbling moment where you go from.

• 1:28:18Jocko Willink?

  I need to give Amanda more hugs next time I see her because she should be hating me right now going, yo, JP could have made this money overseas. We would be sitting right now. I can't believe this guy's a.

• 1:28:32Jocko Willink?

  I'm gonna give her a big old hug next time I see her and say, tell her, thank you for putting up with me.

• 1:28:38Jocko Willink?

  Cause dang.

• 1:28:40JP Dinnell?

  Yeah. So I might get to the conversation that we had very shortly, like you, Amanda and I had a conversation. Like, I think it was the same month. So we're in, this is the beginning of January. And so, um, you know, I go and I change out and, you know, she goes over to her parents to hang out and I, uh, started delivering pizzas, you know, and he, he put a, he put a, a, a social media post. He said, hey, it was a picture of his truck and my truck in front of Marco's Pizza. He said, uh, you, you shouldn't be driving, but we can. Let us, something along those lines. And we were, I mean, I was delivering pizzas until 1:00 AM. I mean, we were non-stop delivering pizzas, you know, and I was doing that for the tip money, you know? We need that extra tip and I would make, you know, about $300 in tips, you know?

• 1:29:25JP Dinnell?

  I just, I'd make good tip money. I was super polite and, you know, friendly to people, but it was just, I remember I was going up to this one house to deliver. And it's this beautiful house in Mississippi, big old house. And it was, you know, very wealthy, uh, family. And I go up there and it was just this rec, like I recognized like where I was still at because I was still on this like, I'm JP Danelle with Echelon Front. I was just in a nice suit in Key West, Florida, giving a leadership speech. You know, I gave this workshop. But you know what? They don't know that. Nobody knows who I am because I'm wearing a

• 1:30:06JP Dinnell?

  Marco's Pizza polo and a hat delivering their pizza. And I just remember like thinking like, man, I really need to make this work with Echelon Front. Like, I really need to make sure I'm doing what I need to do. Not just like make it work like, hey, I'm available for work. Like, do you have opportunity? Like, let me know what I need. But I need to make it work. Like, I need to be in the game. I need to be leveling up. And it was just, and that's just kind of where it was at. And so, I don't, I don't, I had one other event that month in January, and that was out in Philadelphia. And that was, again, a great company, learned a lot with them. It was a half-day workshop. They sure my

• 1:30:49JP Dinnell?

  phone was synced and my watch was synced with the time zones and the schedule went well. And, you know, I flew back. And I don't, I don't think I really had anything in, in February. And so I was still same thing. Like, I'm delivering pizzas, I'm doing construction, I'm doing whatever I can during this timeframe. Had some opportunities to help teach shooting. So I'm doing that as well. And, you know, March rolls around.

• 1:31:14Jocko Willink?

  And that's what I hear. I hear, you know, you'd be like, hey, I'm gonna go out and teach you. I'm all, awesome, man. Sounds like everything's going awesome.

• 1:31:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, me too. That's exactly what I thought. I was like, oh, man, that's a kind of a cool deal.

• 1:31:24JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, absolutely. So I go, you know, I'm teaching, I'm helping teach shooting on my birthday for a training company that was near the Memphis area. And, you know, just, hey, I think I had a, like, a few events, I think, in March with Echelon Front, a little bit in April. It was like one or two gigs, right? Well, this thing that I did in December, in January, none of those paid, I didn't get paid for those until like April or May, because, well. You don't get paid until I should on front gets paid and that's a principle and a concept that I know like, why would they pay me if they haven't gotten paid? I, you know, I remember life like making sure I understood that he's like, you're gonna be and I'm like, yeah, I'm good with that. Like I came from sales and a financial industry where that's what

• 1:32:07JP Dinnell?

  we did. We actually helped people get paid before they got paid. And so I understood it and I was good with it. I was doing all this other work. And I remember one time I sent you a picture of I was, I was working construction with Jared and it was eight degrees outside. Like I took a screenshot of the temp and the, and of me doing this brick, uh, we were doing some block work on this really nice house. And, um, you said, make sure you save that because you're not going to be in that situation next year. And I, and I saved it. And I saved that, like that, that picture. And, um, so I was, you know, doing what I could. And I met this, um, I met these brothers at a shooting course

• 1:32:49JP Dinnell?

  that I did. And they're like, Hey, if you ever do like your own, like, we'd love to do like in a, like, just some specific specialized training with you. And I'm like, okay, cool. And they followed up with me. They're like, Hey, let me know if you have anything. And I, I felt weird like doing my own thing, considering I was helping my buddies do their thing that was kind of customized. And I let my buddy know and he's like, dude, if, if people are asking you to do stuff like, and if you're doing it through your company, like, whatever, that, that's fine. Um, and so I, I put together this really high end, uh, shooting experience where it was a day of, uh, pistol, a day of rifle and a day of long range shooting. And it was at this really nice house in Mississippi on 700 acres

• 1:33:32JP Dinnell?

  in this beautiful, huge house. Like there's a lake in front of the house, like the sun rose. I mean, it was an amazing experience. And, um, that was the first like high end type of thing that I did. And man, it made a difference, right? And there's, you know, another company that, you know, asked me to kind of do like a, a shooting day with their company for some team building. And, um, like it was same situation where I was like, man, I don't, I don't know how I'm going to make rent. And it was a complete God thing because the guy hit me up. He said, Hey, I have a check for you. I want to make sure this gets paid to you before we do the training. I was like,

• 1:34:13JP Dinnell?

  Okay, where are you at? I can meet you. And I remember I drove to go meet with him. And I looked at the check at the bank and I'm like, cool, I'm gonna go straight to that bank and cash it there. And like I went and I remember the bank was like, oh, there's gonna be like a $50 cashing fee. I'm like, $50 a cat? I'm like, that's ridiculous. And I'm like, you know, so I was kind of like talking through. I was like, hey, I'm a small business. Like this is like part of my business. And like, he's like, oh, we'll waive it this time. I'm like, thank you. You know, I was like, man, you've taken $50. Come on. I it was, you know, small. It was a small little community bank in Mississippi. But anyways, or Tennessee. And so we get through all that time and it's just, you know, making ends meet. Amanda and the kids are being so supportive.

• 1:34:56JP Dinnell?

  And we had a conversation with you. I remember we dropped off the kids at school. And we were talking and we were driving in my tundra and we're headed to the gym. And we're just kind of having this conversation where you you told Amanda, like, hey, when this picks up for JP, he's gonna miss a lot of stuff. He goes, and you need to understand that he's probably not going to be there for their preschool graduation. He's probably not going to be there for the kindergarten graduation. He's gonna miss some birthdays. He's gonna miss some anniversaries. But if you guys are willing to to like grow with us right now, he's like, it's it's gonna be

• 1:35:36JP Dinnell?

  a solid three to five years before any of us really take a break, if that's what you want. And I'm just like nodding my head like while you're talking.

• 1:35:45Jocko Willink?

  So at this point, I'm guessing that I started to see some kind of trajectory with the demand signal for you. And started to see like, hey, okay, this is because I knew where I was at, which was mayhem.

• 1:35:56JP Dinnell?

  Yes.

• 1:35:56Jocko Willink?

  And the more mayhem I have, the more mayhem everyone else has. You know, there's a little lag time behind it, but that's the way it works.

• 1:36:03JP Dinnell?

  This was so this was right before that I this is right before I spoke at muster 002, which was May of of 2017. And so there wasn't that crazy demand for me, but you knew it was gonna be there because if people are requesting Jaco and Leif and that they can't afford Jaco and Leif, they get JP to know. And and you saw that kind of starting to happen. And you just kind of set the expectations.

• 1:36:33JP Dinnell?

  And Amanda was like, I have no problem with this. And you're like, okay, I just, you know, we want to make sure. And then this is about the time that you guys brought on Dave Burke. Good deal, Dave. Good deal, Dave. And we did our first event together in April.

• 1:36:51JP Dinnell?

  I want to say April 26th or 27th, somewhere in that timeframe, we did our first event together. And it was cool because when we met, it was like, it was weird. We just gave each other like this big, like this bro hug. And I was like, hey, man, it's like good to meet you and actually be working with you. And he was like me, just beyond excited for the opportunity. And that night we, we sat and we went through the brief together. We rehearsed it a couple of times. The next day we woke up early, we knocked out a workout, we rehearsed the brief, you know, a couple of times of what we're going to be doing. And it was funny because the client was like, oh, how long have you guys been working with each other? And Dave and I kind of laughed and did like, you know, on and off, you know, since 2006, mostly off.

• 1:37:33JP Dinnell?

  But the client, you know, just was happy to have Dave and I for this event. And we did this full day workshop and it was awesome. And for, for me, what I, what I learned from that event with Dave was just humility. Of, of Dave being this super high ranking Marine Corps officer with the pedigree background that he had for what he did in the military, the Marine Corps, as a Top Gun pilot, you know, just, I mean, he's good deal Dave for a reason. And for him to be asking me like my ideas and hey, what do you think? And how do you want to run this? And what's your thoughts on this? Hey, you've been doing a little bit longer than me.

• 1:38:15JP Dinnell?

  And I'm just like, in my mind, I'm like, well, yeah, I've been here a couple of months longer than you, but it's not like I've been flooded with work, brother. Like I'm just, but he just showed just complete humility. And for us to be able to work together and, you know, just, just cover and move for each other. It was awesome. We've, we read off of each other. Like we had been working together for a decade plus. It was really cool. And, um, you know, just us knocking out the workout together in the morning and then us just doing the workshop and then us heading out. It was, it was really cool. And then it was just, to me, it meant a lot that, you know, Dave could have come in, you know, he's, he got his, all of his degrees and his educational background and everything he did in the Marine Corps and, you know, the business degrees and everything.

• 1:38:58JP Dinnell?

  He could have come in and be like, hey, this is what we're going to be doing. Like, hey, I had a talk with Jock on life. And I would have been like, Roger that, sir. Like, like check. I like, I know my place. I'm good with this. But it was the exact opposite, which that's what good leaders do. And I just, I knew that he exemplified everything that you and Leif had talked about from day one. And that's why I was like, okay, this is, this is a guy that I'll do anything with. I'll do anything for him. Like I, the fact that I get to work with him, I'm fired up. And then muster 002 happened and Dave and I both spoke. And I was like, dang, that guy can talk. Like his, his Oodaloo brief was incredible.

• 1:39:39JP Dinnell?

  And we just, we bonded at that, at that muster and just being able to see you and Leif grow from the first muster to the sex, second muster. I was like, oh, wow. That's impressive. It was just, it was, it was just getting, evolving and getting better and more powerful and dynamic.

• 1:39:58JP Dinnell?

  And at that point, that was when I was going to start getting more work. And it was after I spoke at that muster, that's when things really started to book and get busy. And, um, it was, it was a busy year, 2017, you know, muster 003 happened. And yeah, it was, it was really cool to kind of see that, that growth and progression happen.

• 1:40:24Jocko Willink?

  And it was just turning and burning.

• 1:40:26JP Dinnell?

  Yep. Anything and everything. I remember Jamie would say, hey, I've got a gig. They don't have the budget for what we're charging for you. And I'd say, yes. And she's like, well, and I'm like, yeah. And it got to the point where Jamie would call and be, hey, you know, she's like, I already know what your answer is going to be, but I just want, I'm like, yes. Book it. Good. Hey, this is a free event, but it could open up other opportunities. Book it. Like, I didn't care. I literally, anything and everything I was saying yes to, because that's how you should be. In my opinion, like, if you're JP Denal with that opportunity in front of you.

• 1:41:04JP Dinnell?

  Who in the hell do you think you are to be picky about anything? I, I didn't care. And there was still this delay in pay, right? There's still, you know, for the events and, and everything else like that, but like, I knew where we were going.

• 1:41:19JP Dinnell?

  That vision was very clear.

• 1:41:20Jocko Willink?

  That's another sixth sense. When I look back on it, I remember having a conversation with you. And you're like, hey, I wanted to talk to you about the way that we're getting paid. It seems like we should maybe do it. And you had this whole like pitch to me about, you know, you could get advanced from the client. You get this whole pitch to me about basically what it boiled down to is how you, how, how instructors could get paid faster, which is only two instructors. And I was just kind of like, I was like, bro. Like, looking back, I see what you were trying to say. You needed money now. I was just looking at you going, bro, who cares? You'll get paid, you know, whatever. You'll get that money then, whatever. To me, I go, JP, I don't even know, I don't even know when I got paid for whatever.

• 1:41:57JP Dinnell?

  And I remember you telling me that. And I'm like, on the inside, you said that. And I remember on the inside going, oh, that's a nice situation to be in. I'm not in that situation.

• 1:42:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:10JP Dinnell?

  And it's funny because now it's like,

• 1:42:12Jocko Willink?

  Oh, I definitely remember telling you like, hey, I don't even know when I got paid for what. Doesn't even, I don't even, don't even recognize it. And you were like, Roger. You know, there's probably a little bit of an indication to me, but I knew it couldn't have been that far off. You know, I must've been looking at it going, yeah, he's going to be here in a very short period of time.

• 1:42:30JP Dinnell?

  Yeah. And,

• 1:42:31Jocko Willink?

  Again, just bad leadership on my part.

• 1:42:33JP Dinnell?

  No, not at all. No, that's, it was just, now, again, if my communication would have been a little more clear with you, if I would have said, Jaco, hey, the reason why I'm talking about us being able to do this is because boom, boom, boom. But your, your reason and Lace's reason was very valid. Like for you to do that, you're giving up a percentage of your pay for that advance and the company didn't need it. You guys didn't need it and you knew in the very near future was not going to be an issue.

• 1:43:02Jocko Willink?

  Well, it's going to be no factor.

• 1:43:04JP Dinnell?

  No.

• 1:43:05Jocko Willink?

  So that's 2017, this is all happening.

• 1:43:07JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:09Speaker 02

  That makes sense to me, like how you, especially with your personality, but even like without necessarily your specific personality, like you don't want to, like as a team member, enthusiastic, new team member, and you have that like kind of attitude or whatever, like non, you know how you have entitled attitudes? You have the exact opposite, yours, your attitude. And it's kind of extreme, but even if it's not that extreme, I understand that you come and you don't want to be, you don't want to start presenting burdens to like the team. Like, oh, my, my financial, like, hey, let's do this because of my personal financial situation, you know?

• 1:43:45JP Dinnell?

  Yeah. And it was ideas to where if it made sense to them, we would execute on it.

• 1:43:51Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:43:51JP Dinnell?

  But I, like, I know Leif and Jaco well enough to where if I present something to them, and if they see the value and if it makes sense, they'll do it. If they don't see the value and if it doesn't make sense to the company, then why would they do that? And I understood that. So I, I didn't care either way. It was like, hey, if we did this, it would be beneficial. If we don't do it, whatever, like we'll be good to go. I'll be okay.

• 1:44:14Speaker 02

  Yeah. And you know how like, especially if, like ideally, you want to be the team player, that's like the easiest to work with. And then of course, the one that executes and does a good job for sure. But what if like, what if you're a team member that you executed well, you did your job 100% and you excelled in it and you're really valuable, but every time you did a job, you'd sort of complain about it for like three, four minutes before you did it. And then you do it, but you just complain about it. You'd always sort of have that, you know? Just for example, I'm not saying you'd ever do that, obviously, but let's just say, for example. Where someone like you, and I think it's normal to be like, man, I don't want to bring that burden to this team that I respect so much. So I'm gonna like work so hard to keep

• 1:44:58Speaker 02

  it from them. It's like, you know, the idea that, okay, my financial situation is not Jaco's problem.

• 1:45:03JP Dinnell?

  It's not.

• 1:45:04Speaker 02

  And in fact, I don't even want him worrying about that. So I'm gonna, in a way, I'm gonna hide it from him a little bit. You know, I'm gonna keep it from him and I'm gonna just, all I'm gonna present to Jaco as far as his perception is me doing a good job 100%. That's it.

• 1:45:17JP Dinnell?

  Well, and it's also the mindset that it's nobody else's responsibility to fix my situation other than myself.

• 1:45:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:45:25JP Dinnell?

  And it is nobody's responsibility.

• 1:45:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:45:27JP Dinnell?

  Now, if I'm a contributing member of a team that they value, guess what? I get paid accordingly. I know that, right? And the one of the things I've always tried to be is like, hey, you should be working so hard and provide so much value to a team that if the team, and I've told this to a lot of companies we've done workshops with during Q and A the last, well, what about this and this? And if I can tie this answer into it, I think it's important for people to hear and understand. It's like, you want to be that person on the team toward if your company has to start cutting back, every time they see your name on the list, they're like, nope, it needs to be bumped up a little bit. Nope, it needs to be bumped up a little bit. And that's just kind of like the mindset

• 1:46:10JP Dinnell?

  I've always tried to have of just being that contributing member of a team and not come, not, I mean, at the end of the day, also, this is nothing for me to complain about because I also know that my worst day is somebody's dream.

• 1:46:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:46:27JP Dinnell?

  I mean, have you, I'm sure this probably happened to you on a few of your deployments. I know it's happened to Mike Sorelli. I've asked him about it. It happened on mine. Have you ever had somebody where they tried to give you their kids for you to take off target or take out of wherever you're at, like try to give you the kids?

• 1:46:42Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:46:43JP Dinnell?

  Think about that. I mean, and I know how you are with kids.

• 1:46:46Speaker 02

  That's true.

• 1:46:46JP Dinnell?

  And this will probably make you emotional like it does me when I talk about this is on my deployments, everyone, and it's only three. So it's not like a lot, you know, not like Mike Sorelli where like, like actual G I Joe Rambo hero, right? With 11 combat deployments.

• 1:47:05JP Dinnell?

  Is where you would have a family try to give their kids to you like they're asking you to take

• 1:47:13Jocko Willink?

  That that never happened to me.

• 1:47:14JP Dinnell?

  Oh, they didn't? Where they are trying to like saying, hey, can you please take the kids with you?

• 1:47:18Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I've had them like, like trying to protect the kids, you know, like get the kids over here. But I never had anyone trying to say, hey, take, take the kids and keep them safe away from us.

• 1:47:28JP Dinnell?

  Yes, can you take them back to base with you? Can you take them back to base with you? You gotta think about that, like I'm, I, we're all parents in here. I mean, I, I would never trust a stranger with my kids. I mean, there's some family members I have, I'm like, no, we're good. You don't need to watch your kids like I'm very protective of my kids. And to think that there are people that live in a situation, they live in an environment that's so bad that they know that their kid could have a better life if they were to come back to America with us. And obviously that's not a reality. We can't just take kids back to the United States with us to provide safety and security. But you know, it's just something that's all I've always kind of thought about is my worst day is somebody's dream. Like the things that we complain about, people would love to have those, those problems.

• 1:48:13JP Dinnell?

  And so that was just another reminder that I have to myself of like, hey, like your, your life's not bad, man. You live in America, you know, you, you have a house, you have a vehicle. Yeah, you're struggling to make ends meet, but guess what? You're the jackass that put yourself in that situation. Get yourself out of it.

• 1:48:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, and that's, that's obviously a good attitude to have for sure, especially if it comes as naturally as it seems like it does with you. I mean, I don't think that comes as naturally for maybe the typical person, even though, yes, I think a lot of us do remind ourselves, you know, that kind of stuff, and it does help a lot.

• 1:48:45JP Dinnell?

  Well, yeah, and it's, I guess it's unfair because I have the advantage of seeing what I've seen on deployments. And both my parents worked their butts off. They never, I never, we never heard our parents complaining. About the work that they had to do. There's times where my mom would would wake us up at like four in the morning because she had to go teach step aerobics at 5am. And so she would wake up all the kids and my dad was leaving to go do construction all day. So you can't leave the kids at home. So she would wake us up, she'd get us ready for school, knowing that we're going to go back to sleep. We would go to the gym, the fitness center or the club, whatever she was working at. We would sleep in daycare or sleep in the office while she would teach her classes. She would then get us up, feed us some breakfast, drop us off at

• 1:49:30JP Dinnell?

  school and go back and work. Pick us up from school. We'd hang out at the club or the fitness center or wherever she was working at, doing our schoolwork there until she got done teaching. Then we'd go home. She'd make dinner for our family and by that time my dad would be coming home. And it was just, you can make excuses or you can make things happen. You can't do both. That's why I've, I've always loved that saying. I always try to share that with people is because I think too many people are comfortable with making excuses.

• 1:50:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:50:00JP Dinnell?

  And like I said, my mindset was starting to shift and change working with you and Leif. I mean, and now I'm working with Dave Burke and you and I are seeing each other. Like when we did that field training exercise out in New Jersey with, when Leif and I did that with that company. And it was just, you know, being around people that have a different driven mindset is going to change. Like you, you have to change your mindset if you're going to try to keep up. And again, I know how smart Jaco is. I know how smart Leif is. I know how smart Dave is. Like I, I had to work. I had to work to, to, to keep a seat at the table. And I also know not everybody deserves a seat at the table.

• 1:50:37Speaker 02

  Yeah. Do you think Jaco, that there, I mean, obviously good attitude to have, just generally speaking, but with the extreme version of that, I think JP, you could, I don't, the thing is, I don't know and I don't see that it, that this has happened, but it seems like you might run the risk a little bit of, okay, let's say, here's an analogy. So let's say we're all running up a hill, right? And at the top of the hill is the goal and we all have our sacks of marbles, we'll say, right? Jaco's legs are really like way stronger than ours, we'll say.

• 1:51:12JP Dinnell?

  Allegedly.

• 1:51:13Speaker 02

  Allegedly, yeah. For this analogy, we'll say that's the case. And, but we all have the same amount of marbles, you know? But at the, when we reach the goal, we're all there equally, whatever, you know, fulfillment, whatever that is.

• 1:51:26Speaker 02

  And let's say you're falling behind a little bit. Like maybe your legs aren't as strong as mine and Jaco's, whatever, you're falling behind. And Jaco's like, hey, like you good or whatever. And you're like refuse. Cause he can grab like half your marbles and still be rolling faster than us. Literally, he can be doing that, especially for the last 20 meters or whatever. But you're like, no, no, these are my marbles. I have to carry them. But it's like, hey, wait, but if I carry them just for a little bit, I can help us all out and we can all be where we want to be quicker. See what I'm saying? So Jaco, do you, do you think that we run the risk, given that analogy?

• 1:52:02Jocko Willink?

  Yes. So here's, we, we kind of already answered this, but you're bringing a good point into it. So the answer for the original thing, as an individual human in JP's world, he didn't get to a point where he was gonna drop the marbles and fall down the hill. He didn't get there as an individual. So he never reached a point where he had to say, you know, I need help or whatever. That's part one. Part two is what you, this is where it starts to sway the answer a little bit. Now we're supposed to work together as a team. So if JP is hurting the team, it's the same. If JP gets to a point where he's gonna not make it himself,

• 1:52:46Jocko Willink?

  he's gotta speak up. If you're hurting a team and you think that's a bad thing, well, guess what? Then you need to speak up. So yes, if JP would have said, if JP would have said, you know, hey, I can't make it to the gig because I gotta deliver pizzas. We would have been like, hey, hold on a second, dude. What are you talking about? You, you gotta deliver, you know, that's, that's, we, we need you at this gig. And he would have said, yeah, but I don't have enough money. And I would have said, oh, okay, bro. Well, let's, all right, let's figure this out. Let's talk. So he didn't reach a point where, look, 100% of the time when it was JP's.

• 1:53:22Jocko Willink?

  Go time? He was ready to rock and roll like, okay, that's cool. Yep, yep, here you are. Yep, you're here to do your job. If he, if I would have said, hey, JP, can you come out of this gig I'm gonna be at? And he's like, well, I can't because I've got to do, you know, I've got pizzas to deliver. I gotta work on this construction site. I would have said, well, wait, why do you have to do that? And he said, well, I actually, you know, I'm not quite there at Esalen Front yet and I need a little bit more money. And I said, oh, okay, cool. Give me some of those marbles or let me give you some of mine, you know, to get you to where you need to be. So yes, it can happen and there's, you know, you see this in a, in a, what the example that you're giving is an actual, an actual thing that can happen in a SEAL platoon. You know, if you've got a bunch of guys and you've got someone that's can't carry their weight, you, and now the platoon is not going to make it. Right.

• 1:54:06Jocko Willink?

  So you say, hey, give me the radio, you know, to the radio man. Hey, I've carried the radio man's radio before. You know, like, hey, the radio man's got an extra 20 pounds. Give me that radio. Let me carry this thing till we get to the next rally point or we get to the next, you know, the, the next waypoint that we're going to and see if you feel better. And if you do, you can take the weight back. If not, I was on a patrol one time. I had, this is just a training operation, but I had the radio and I had an M60 from, from the radio man and one of the 60 gunners. I mean, that's, they were hurting and yet I didn't, like, that's the way it is. And you could see we were gonna lag. We weren't gonna make to our, where we need to be. So, all right, give me the radio, hump on the radio for a little while. Now we'll suddenly look at the, the 60 gunner. Dude, you want me to carry that thing for a little bit? Yeah, here, take my pea shooter, let's switch it out.

• 1:54:51Jocko Willink?

  So yes, you're, you are correct. But JP never got to either one of those thresholds. And I will say the, the criticism you could have of JP is on a personal level, is his threshold too, too low, I guess is the word, too low, where he thinks it's okay to get to this really low point when, you know, maybe his, maybe in his mind is, maybe in your mind JP's threshold is too low, but guess what? You're not, it's not your, it's not your life. It's JP's life. And I'm telling you, if JP got to a point where he was saying, and this is what I was trying to make clear earlier, if you, not just JP, if anyone gets to a point.

• 1:55:30JP Dinnell?

  Where you can no longer keep your head above water, man. And I don't care if it's financial, I don't care if it's psychological, I don't care if it's emotional, I don't care if it's relationship. If you get into a situation where you can't keep your head above water, you have to have the humility and the courage to ask for help. That's what you have to do, otherwise you drown.

• 1:55:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, and you have that weird gray area though with that, with this. So you got, the analogy is kind of easier to explain it where, okay, so when I, when you say, you say, oh, we might fail to get to the, whether it be the rally point or to get to our objective without me helping, you know, some people, whatever. But what if they asked for help earlier, they didn't necessarily, they weren't about to drown, but they were kind of holding things up. You were gonna get there, maybe a little late, or maybe kind of on time, but if you, if they would ask for help earlier, you would have got there early. Way more advantageous position, see what I'm saying? So there's like a gray area where it's like, yeah, you're drowning, that's like kind of do or die situation, where no choice.

• 1:56:37Speaker 02

  But there's that little gray area where it's like, man, to optimize, like, just ask for a little bit of help and you might be able to optimize. Not to say that's always gonna be the situation, but then exactly what you said, you kind of got to wrestle with, someone like you would, you wouldn't be like, you would take it as a personal failure. Like, I shouldn't, I shouldn't, and this is a good thing, by the way. I shouldn't have to ask for any help, ever, unless I'm about to drown. Otherwise, it's not their problem, kind of thing.

• 1:57:03JP Dinnell?

  You know, and that, this reminds me of, you know, when we were in Ramadi and I was, you know, one of our lead snipers.

• 1:57:14JP Dinnell?

  And I wasn't clear on our rules of engagement. We'd gotten the rules of engagement brief, you know, our leadership had done a good job. We, you know, we were fired up to be doing what we were doing, but, and it was clear. But what was not clear to me was when you're actually in that situation, because there is some gray zones there. There is some like, you know, like, once you're in a situation, it kind of changes like, how you can interpret something. And I, I know, and our leadership had always made it very clear, and I knew, just knew, that if, if you shoot somebody...

• 1:57:53JP Dinnell?

  That was not an enemy combatant fighter that was not within the rules of engagement. You're gonna be going to jail, alright? Like, I'm gonna be going to Leavenworth to make big rocks to medium rocks, to make medium rocks to small rocks. Like, that's not gonna be good. Like, you can't just shoot people without them having a weapon or doing a hostile act or something that's within your rules of engagement. And so, we were setting up an Overwatch and I was lead sniper and I'm scanning my area and I knew where the soldiers were gonna be, I knew where the Marines were gonna be. We had some SEALs on the ground as well with them. And like, I knew their location, I was aware of it, I had my map, I did my map study, I knew what I was checking.

• 1:58:37JP Dinnell?

  And, and I remember seeing this, we call them MAMS, military age male, that started to

• 1:58:48JP Dinnell?

  creep into, his activities were within the rules of engagement. It wasn't like this blatant, like, right away type of thing, but what he was doing was, it was like, oh, okay, that's within those rules of engagement. But because he didn't start doing it right away, there's confusion on my end. Like, I was kind of like, ah, and I remember I was on my SR-25 and, which was our sniper rifle that I had, it was a 7.62 caliber sniper rifle, magazine held 20 rounds. So, in an urban environment, it's a great sniper rifle to have because I can shoot it semi-auto if I have to. There's a few times in the streets, we got into, you know, you get into a gunfight, you can take multiple shots, shots, you know, before you move.

• 1:59:30JP Dinnell?

  And it was, you know, it was a great, great gun, I loved that gun. And I remember, I was watching, I was watching this guy and I was like, kinda scanning the other area to see if there's other activity that was going on. And, you know, I dial in on this guy, I manipulate my, my safety from, from safe to fire, put my finger on the trigger, and I just was watching the crosshairs on his chest and as I'm pulling out the slack, and it was hot. And I just remember, like, I just had sweat dripping down my face, like, I could taste like, the salt in my sweat and there was like this, like, just dust that was all over us, just from... Just on the Ford operating base and you know, patrolling through the streets on the rooftops and you know, it was kinda like making this little cake.

• 2:00:16JP Dinnell?

  Like mud mixture on you. It's just, the whole thing was gross. And I remember like, I actually like licked my lips to like get the sweat off. And I, I tasted that dirt. And um, you know, I'm just, and I'm getting ready to take the shot on this guy.

• 2:00:32JP Dinnell?

  And then I stopped. And so like I, I take my finger off the trigger, slack comes out, I manipulate the gun to safe. I crawl over to Seth and I said, hey, this is what's going on, right? And I tell him what was going on. And it was like the first time Seth. Like I ever kinda saw disappointment in his face towards me. And you could tell he was frustrated. And he's like, absolutely take that shot. And so I, I crawl back over to my gun on the rooftop. I get on my gun. I get on the glass and that dude is gone. An enemy combatant fighter that was well within the rules of engagement for me to engage.

• 2:01:18JP Dinnell?

  And I didn't take the shot.

• 2:01:26JP Dinnell?

  I let Seth down. I let those soldiers down. I let those Marines down. Because I don't know what that guy went and did. I don't, I, I, because he's gone, right? And when I've shared this story before, I always joke and I said, my, I just pray that a tank ran him over, right? But that was a really bad feeling for myself because I didn't do my job. I wasn't able to do my job. Because I failed to ask the right questions. I failed to get clarification. And the reason why I said that reminds me of this story is like what we're talking about is

• 2:02:05JP Dinnell?

  that situation that I was in is I failed to share the situation with Jaco and Leif of just say, "Hey, here's my situation. I don't need help, but I want you to be aware of what I'm working through in case something seems off with me. If something doesn't make sense, right? Like I failed to share that situation because of my ego. And I failed to ask better questions about the rules of engagement. I failed to ask better questions of the situation that we were in in combat because I assumed I had all the information. I assumed that I knew enough. I

• 2:02:45JP Dinnell?

  assumed that my leadership had given me all the information. And when it came down for me to actually do my job, I wasn't able to do my job because I didn't properly prepare myself. I didn't ask the right questions. And you know, that's just one of those things that it was a very humbling lesson and it bothered me because I mean, you know, those soldiers and Marines always had our back and Seth always had our back and I failed every one of them. Like I completely failed them. And I remember when we came back from that mission, Seth and I sat down and we talked about it and you know, I got clarification from him. And the really

• 2:03:29JP Dinnell?

  cool part about it is Seth took that opportunity for him to understand that he should have been asking better questions of the guys. Like he should have been getting a better read back and having better communication with us. And you know, I'm not saying the rest of the deployment went perfect and you know, there was no other small little hiccups here and there, but I can tell you the, the communication was a lot better. There is a lot more clarifying questions that were asked on both parts. And you have to be able to

• 2:04:02JP Dinnell?

  Detach and assess the situations that you're in and and actually look at it from a different perspective to to see the different types of questions that you should be asking to gain more awareness for your ability to do your job.

• 2:04:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and that's one of those situations where that was like freaking early as you know, very early in the deployment.

• 2:04:23JP Dinnell?

  Yes.

• 2:04:24Jocko Willink?

  And, you know, I ended up very soon thereafter, making it, um, you know, I got the whole rules of engagement because the rules of engagement, this big, complex thing, and it was, you know, enemy combatant, this potential hostility, all these things, all these legal terms that clearly were too much for someone to be sitting on their gun, making a decision like that.

• 2:04:52Jocko Willink?

  Especially someone that's freaking 20.

• 2:04:55JP Dinnell?

  Just turned 23.

• 2:04:56Jocko Willink?

  Just turned 23 years old. First time in that kind of combat. And, and, you know, so, so what I ended up telling everyone eventually, and this is all feedback, like, you know, Seth would tell me like, hey, here's what happened. I'm like, okay, so obviously I did a bad job of getting the word out so people understand what's going on because, you know, so it ended up being, hey, if you, when you're out there and you have to pull the trigger, make sure that the person you're killing is bad. That's the rules of engagement. You make sure that that person you're going to kill is bad, and here's why. Because the day that one of our snipers or one of our machine gunners shoots and kills a, a, a local neighborhood doctor, or a local neighborhood teacher, or a local neighborhood

• 2:05:41Jocko Willink?

  Imam, we, we are going to get shut down. And why is it bad if we get shut down? Because if we get shut down, we can't do what we're supposed to do. And that means that these soldiers and Marines that are out there every single day, they won't have us over watching what they're doing, and we know what will happen then. And, and so that becomes the rules of engagement. And, and this goes back to something I've been talking about, I talked about on EF Online yesterday, as a matter of fact.

• 2:06:08Jocko Willink?

  If you have that deep understanding, then you can make all kinds of decisions based on that. You can make all kinds of decisions based on your values, on your culture. In this particular case, if you truly understand what the rules of engagement and if your boss, Jaco, explains them in a way that you can actually understand them, then you can make just about every single decision you need to make. 99.9. Sure, there might be some outlying situation that you just need clarification on, but that should be so rare. It should be so rare that something like that unfolds. And yeah, those are the lessons that you learn and that we learned. And like you said, does that mean all of a sudden

• 2:06:49Jocko Willink?

  every other call is, in terms of rules of engagement, was perfect from there on out? No, it wasn't because there's gray areas. And even the idea of like, hey, if you shoot the wrong person, you're going to prison. Like, that's actually not true. And, you know, civilians will get killed in combat unintentionally. And if mistakes like that are going to happen, and that doesn't mean your chain of command is going to hang you out to dry and you're going to get sent to prison. No, if you're following the rules of engagement, there can be people that do things that bring them within the rules of engagement. And it's something that I learned from the first of the 506 is, good shoot, bad result. Like, almost as soon as we got there, they had one of those cases

• 2:07:33Jocko Willink?

  when we got to Cragador. They had a case that was, one of their, I don't even know if it was a sniper or if it was just a rifleman, took a shot, and it turns out that the person that they, the person that was killed, there was a decent chance that they were not an insurgent. Of course, there's a chance that there wasn't, that they weren't insurgent, but it wasn't a cut and dry case. So what it turns out to be, and the way it gets reported is, hey, this was a good shot. It was well within the rules of engagement, but we cannot confirm that this individual is bad. Therefore, we're putting it as a good shot with a bad result.

• 2:08:10Jocko Willink?

  These are the kind of things that, again, they translate into the business world. Because all the time in the business world, you've got someone that's on the front lines that doesn't understand the culture, doesn't understand the rules, doesn't understand the strategic mission of the company, and they're making a decision. If they don't understand those things, they can make the wrong decision all day long. All day long, they can make the wrong decision. So we as leaders have to make sure that the people on the front lines, that we communicate in a simple, clear, concise manner, so that they do understand the rules of engagement. They do understand the strategic mission. They do understand that what you do at a tactical level can have a negative impact on a strategic level. Say, look at, look at the police right now. Police are in that exact situation.

• 2:08:55Jocko Willink?

  If there's a police officer, they can, they can do something on the front lines, and it can have, we're seeing it, right? We've seen it now over and over again in the last several months. Something that a frontline officer does has a negative strategic impact, not just on law enforcement, but on the entire country. And if people don't understand that on the front lines, they, that plays into their decision making process in a negative way.

• 2:09:34JP Dinnell?

  That the thought process of, you know, and you've always ingrained into it since day one of when we started the workup is your individual actions can affect this whole task unit. And I remember that talk that you had with me, you had the whole talk with the task unit, and then you had an individual conversation with me, and you told me, "Hey JP, I need you to put JP in big, bold letters on your helmet." And I know we talked about this in the other podcast.

• 2:10:03JP Dinnell?

  And you told me the reason why is I want you to, I want to always know where you're at. I need you, you know, you to be my go-to guy. And that was very empowering, right? It was a very empowering conversation that you had with me. You told me like, hey, I need you to be, I need you to step up and be a little more aggressive. And I'm like, uh, okay. You know, I thought I was pretty aggressive, but dang, all right. But you explained like, I need you like, just getting stuff done. Like, I need you to, you know, help Seth out. I need you to help, you know, just this task unit. And it was, the other part that was extremely powerful with that conversation is you told me, and you know, Seth was very clear with this, and we worked through this a lot, is you're gonna have a lot on your plate as a sniper, as a point man, as a machine gunner when we deploy. You're young, right?

• 2:10:47JP Dinnell?

  And at the time, I had just turned 22. And then before we deployed, the month before we deployed, I turned 23. And it was, it was so important like that you and Seth as leaders made sure that I knew how important my job was, how important my individual roles were, and that my individual actions could have a negative impact on the task unit. And that if I did something wrong overseas, that we could all get shut down. And that's always just been in my mind. And now have I always adhered to that and made great decisions? No, you know, I've, I've made decisions that, you know, have been bad. I've been arrested, I've, you know, I've gotten in trouble in the military, I've, you know,

• 2:11:31JP Dinnell?

  I've, you know, got, you know, allowed my marriage to fall apart, but it's still always been there that's kept, you know, just me reminded like, hey, your, your individual actions matter. And that's one of the things I've always tried to remind myself of the opportunity that I've had with, with you and life here at Echelon Front is I need, every one of my actions needs to impact the team for the greater good. And you know, Amanda and I would always have this little joke like, hey, everything's a test. Like, everything is a test with Jaco and Leif. Like, hey, you don't know. Like, hey, maybe, you know, just the event, something happened with the event, like, hey, maybe they had a part of that, just to see how you would do.

• 2:12:13JP Dinnell?

  Obviously, we know that's not the fact, but it was just, just to allow us and allow myself to not. You know, fall to complacency. You know, I've talked about this in the muster and we've all taught, you know, complacency gets people killed and complacency is something that we have to actually go to war with every single day because it creeps in. The alarm clock goes off, the complacency is going to creep in. It is going to creep in in your professional life, your personal life, your relationship with your wife or your husband, your significant other, your, you know, your kids. Complacency is always trying to creep in. And just as a reminder to myself, over the last four years was my individual actions are going to affect

• 2:12:55JP Dinnell?

  the team. And how they affect the team is that's a choice that I that I am that I'm making.

• 2:13:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there's a, there's a whole sort of,

• 2:13:08Jocko Willink?

  yeah, I wrote about leadership strategy and tactics. I wrote about the fact that, hey, I would tell the point man, hey, you're the most important person in the platoon because you're the one that knows where we're going. And I tell the, the, I would tell Seth, hey, you're the most important guy here. I tell the radio man, you're the most person important person to go here because you're the one that's going to call for help if we need it. The manifestation of that is me looking at you and saying, hey, put JP on your helmet because I want to know where you are in case I need to have something happen that I can get you. If you think about that from a psychological perspective, that is the physical manifestation of saying, hey, you're the most important person in this platoon.

• 2:13:52JP Dinnell?

  Yep.

• 2:13:53Jocko Willink?

  To tell someone, hey, and you know, I would tell the people, be like, hey, stick by me. You know, I'd always tell, I would always tell like radio men's or JTAC, I'd be like, hey, stick by me because I'm going to need you. You know, it was always that. It's a, it's a, it's a, I don't want to call it a trick, but it's a little bit of a trick. It's a little bit of a trick to say, hey, man, I need to know where you are all the time because then what you realize is exactly what you just said. And obviously it worked because what you realize is my individual actions.

• 2:14:27Jocko Willink?

  Have a impact on everyone here. What I individually do, and this is one of those weird dichotomies because a team is a bunch of people, right? What's a team made up of? A bunch of individuals. And what happens is when those individuals, when good people, when good team players, what's, what, you know, I got this before, what's a team? A team is a bunch of people that are putting the team above themselves. And part of that is realizing that my actions as a team member impact the people on the left and right of me. They impact the whole team. And if I don't perform the way I'm supposed to, I'm not just letting myself down, I'm letting everyone down. And that's what a good team player, a good team player doesn't want to let down the rest

• 2:15:10Jocko Willink?

  of the team. So that, that dichotomy between, between, hey, we're a group and we're a team and saying, hey, this individual, you matter to the outcome of what's going to happen here. And Leif pointed this out to me that when I would debrief platoons, and I might hammer the platoon on this and hammer the platoon on that, but I would always say, you know, hey Fred, the way you took that, you the fire team leader back there? He's, yes, sir. Hey, the way you maneuvered on the enemy from the back, that made a huge difference. And, and by the way, who is that supporting element with him? Oh, that was me. All right, Fred or Jim, that was awesome. The way you two figured that out and worked together,

• 2:15:52Jocko Willink?

  that's the kind of thing we need to see. That's cover move. That's what got you guys out of there. And so signaling out these individuals makes people think, you know what? Man, I matter to this team. And that's absolutely huge. And it goes against the idea of like, oh, yeah, we're, we're all together. We are. We are all together. Hundred percent. But guess what? What I do matters.

• 2:16:18JP Dinnell?

  Yes.

• 2:16:21JP Dinnell?

  I remember I did that with, with Mikey. I remember I told Mikey, I'm like, hey, if I'm carrying a sniper rifle, when we're patrolling, I need you by my side. Because if I'm walking point, and if I wasn't carrying, because you know, if I was walking point and I wasn't going to be acting as a sniper, or if we weren't going to go do a sniper overwatch, I carried the machine gun. I carried the mark 46. I had a ridiculous amount of ammo on me and I was good to go. But I knew that if I was walking point with my SR25 or the 300 wind mag, guess what? I needed Mikey because he was carrying the machine gun. And I knew that I needed him by my side.

• 2:17:03JP Dinnell?

  And I remember telling him that, you know, Mikey's answer is like, I got you homes. And he was, and he was there. He was always by me. You know, the only time that he wasn't ever right next to me was when we knew that we were patrolling through some areas that were heavily IED'd. And it was, everyone is going to walk in the same steps that I walked in and he would be far enough away to where if I stepped in on I, on an IED, it wasn't going to kill Mikey. And we're just, there was a couple of times that we had to take those routes in where it was, everybody was on the same path, same step, like you stepped here, they're going to step there, type of a deal to get to the buildings that were doing overwatches. And I remember there was one time that we, we patrolled this route in that we were told like, it is heavily IED'd.

• 2:17:48JP Dinnell?

  I mean, we were going super slow and methodical. And we get to the target, Seth called in the route, and the vehicles that came in hit multiple IEDs along that same route that we were on. And it was pure grace of God guiding our steps that we didn't hit one of those. We didn't step on any of those. And it was that principle of what you just said of like, I need to know where you're at. And I, and I knew how important that was and I'm not naive. I know I wasn't the only go to guy that Jaco had. I know I wasn't the most important member of the task unit. I knew that I was an important member of the task unit, but I wasn't the most important member of the task unit.

• 2:18:31JP Dinnell?

  Um, I just knew that and I, you know, we're on that deployment, you know, we were in a, a situation that we were in a building and it was just a weird situation. I remember, you know, when we were getting close to this building, um, it just had this weird feeling. There wasn't a lot of movement. There wasn't a lot of activity like there normally would be in the city at night. When we got close to this area and I remember we, we go into the courtyard and it was completely empty. There was like almost nothing in there, which was not common for the houses there. And we get into the building and it was completely empty on the inside as well. And so we're doing the slow, methodical scans.

• 2:19:10JP Dinnell?

  And we knew that at the time they were starting to booby trap houses and rigging houses to blow. Because they're like, oh, cool. They're going to come use this house. Well, we'll just rig that house to blow. Let them all get set up in there and then they're going to clack off the house and we're, we're going in through this building and it was just that, just super eerie feeling because it was empty. And yeah, I think it's just, you know, that's going to be a bad thing. And we clear the first deck, just we go up to the second deck, we clear through it. We go up to the, uh, the rooftop. It's completely empty. We check the surrounding buildings and make sure they're not, we're not getting ambushed or anything else like that. And we just, we're all set up in our different positions. We had guys up on the rooftop.

• 2:19:52JP Dinnell?

  Um, you know, the badger that I talked about before, he was up there, you know, uh, Mikey was up there. Another one of our machine gunners were up there. They had, they had the Carl Gustaf rocket up there. We had a bunch of law rockets up there. Uh, myself, a couple of the other snipers were in different, different rooms down on that second deck. We had guys down the courtyard and I remember the call to prayer happens, sun's starting to come up and normally there's some activity. There was no activity in our area and we just knew, we're like, alright, like we know that we're gonna be getting into a big one. And, um, you know, and then that first little pop shot happens, you know, they're shooting up at the building and then they're kind of getting dialed

• 2:20:34JP Dinnell?

  in and you know, they're starting to hit the outside walls and um, we're trying to figure out where they're coming from and we kind of start to see, okay, hey, okay, there's some enemy fighters, like that's where they're shooting at and we're engaging them and I remember Seth was in the room with myself and another guy and um, you know, he's just kind of asking me what I, what I have going on and I'm showing him and like I, I engage these two guys while he's in the room and you know, he's just laughing, that just contagious laugh that Seth has, he's like, that was awesome. And um, you know, he crawls out of the room and he goes to the other room to get the report and he's going up to the rooftop and um, and then like a round comes into

• 2:21:14JP Dinnell?

  my room, like it hits the back wall and it was just so loud, it's large caliber room, uh, round, you're in a room about the size of this podcast room, it's all like, like concrete and marble, right? And so it just, it's just super loud and concussed. And the guys up on the rooftop, they see where it comes from and you just hear rocket out, they shoot the Carl Gustaf and I just remember I'm in the room and you see the rocket come from above and just like, and just goes into the window of where those enemy fighters were and it detonates inside there and you just see the, like the roof go, just like this wave, right? Just boom, and just all the guys are like, yeah, just, I found some videos of it and it was just awesome, like the

• 2:21:58JP Dinnell?

  guys are just like cheering and everything and you know, we're engaged multiple enemy fighters and, and that was the first time that I had actually had an enemy fighter use a kid as a shield. And I just remember, just the way that felt when you're looking through your crosshairs and there is somebody holding a kid in front of them.

• 2:22:24JP Dinnell?

  Because they're so much of a coward and they're trying to attack you and they're maneuvering to try to move to a position and they grab some kid that's crying and clawing at them and screaming because they're taken from their family and I just Matt, I'll never shake that feeling because you know that kid is ruined, you know? How does that kid ever have a normal life when they are being used as a human shield? And there was times that we took shots and those kids were fine, you know? And you know, the kids were not harmed, obviously. And there's times that you just knew that you couldn't take that shot because any error, anything, you know, you can't, you know, you couldn't do that. You can't, obviously, you would never do that.

• 2:23:08JP Dinnell?

  And, you know, we were, we were in it for a while that day. And guys are kind of giving their like, hey, update on their ammo. And we're starting to run low and I remember we tried to get some, some support to our position and they weren't able to because they had troops in contact. There's a bunch of coordinated attacks that were kind of going on in the different, in that region. And, you know, we make the call, hey, we're going to have to collapse security. We're going to head back to one of these, one of these cops, kind of get resupplied, readdress the situation. And so we make that call and as that happens, a round comes through the window that I'm in and it hits the metal grating in front of me and I get, catch a little fragment in my face

• 2:23:53JP Dinnell?

  and the round hits the wall and I, I'm on my back right away. Like I'm on my back laying down, trying to get out of that, that window sill. And I just remember like my face felt really warm and I was like touching my face to see if I'd been shot. And it was like a little bit of blood on my fingers and I was able to, I'm like, oh, okay, that's nothing. I probably cut myself shaving worse than that. It was just enough. And so I'm down and there's machine gun fire that's coming down in that window that I'm in. Another one of the guys who's like out in the hallway and he's like crawling and you know, and um, it's just like trying to get out of there. And I remember like I'm up against the window as close as I can to try to eliminate like the angle that they could be shooting in from another rooftop

• 2:24:37JP Dinnell?

  or, or a window out there. And um, like I get my periscope out and I'm like trying to like look out the window and I kind of see what's going on. And I look at my rifle and I had a hard malfunction on my, on the SR25. Like I'm just, I'm gonna have to take this apart to, to actually fix this. I'm like, oh, this is not a good situation to be in. And I'm in my own little world. Like I'm trying to figure out there's steady shots coming into the room that I'm in. And it's definitely an enemy sniper. And then you'll have a little bit of machine gun fire that's coming in. It's spraying the building. Some of the rounds actually come into the room. And I'm like trying to figure out like, okay, I need to get out of the room. Like I'm trying to time it. I'm like, well, if I,

• 2:25:22JP Dinnell?

  maybe if I get on my stomach, I can get it like a sprinter's position. I can like jump and like slide out. Like I need to be able to get out. Like whoever, like they've got, they've got me pinned down. Like they've got their bead. Well done. Tick mark on your side for now. Like, like I'm trying to figure out how I'm going to get out of this situation. And then I hear a very familiar sound that usually brings a lot of comfort to me. And it was Mikey and one of the other machine gunners just bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub

• 2:26:07JP Dinnell?

  bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub bub Shut it off or reprogrammed it. Change the channel or whatever. Changed the channel, had done something, right? And so I end up making my way out of the room. I make my way downstairs. I have my pistol. All I have is my Sig 226. Because my rifle is, is a hard malfunction. This building is still being shot at. Like, the enemy fighters know where we're at.

• 2:26:52JP Dinnell?

  The guys had left. I make my way down to the courtyard and I'm trying to figure out, okay, hey, how do I get ahold of the guys? I have to get to my radio, but in order for me to get to my radio, that means I actually have to take my, my gear off. And I'm in the courtyard by myself, so I get myself into the corner. I can hear like people moving around on the other buildings in the other courtyards. You can hear them talking. You can hear them shooting at the building. These guys are down the alleyway shooting. So I get my radio out. I, I, I keep the radio. I'm like, hey, guys, this is JP. You left me behind on target. I might have added in a few other keywords in there, right? And so, and I hear, and now I hear the gunfire over the radio.

• 2:27:36JP Dinnell?

  And it's, I know what's happening. It's Seth keyed up to respond to me as he's like looking around for me. And it's an instant, Roger that, we're headed back your way. And so the Badger is making the calls, like, get them back to me. They get close to me and I'm talking with him on the radio. And I said, hey, I'm coming out on the south side of the alleyway. Lay down, cover fire on the north side. So Mikey, the other machine gunner, they, you know, another big dude like Mikey carried the, the Mark 48. They just, you know who I'm talking about? Just an amazing operator. They, they get side by side. And they're just like, just like seeing off of each other.

• 2:28:18JP Dinnell?

  And I remember like I poke out my head, I, I look, I look at them and I'm just hauling ass to get linked back up with them. And as I'm running up, like I have my pistol in my hand because, and I'm like holding on to my rifle. And they're just like, like the look. And I remember looking at Mikey. And I was just like trying to, like the whole thing, I'm still trying to process, right? It's, you know, that's why the people say the fog of war is, is a real thing. And I remember looking at Mikey and I'm wondering like, who are you walking next to? Like I was the point man, bro. And then I look at the guy that screwed up the head count and I'm like,

• 2:28:55JP Dinnell?

  How do you like, there wasn't that many of us like, how do you screw this up, man? And then I like looking at Seth and I'm just like the same thing like, like who were you like, who was leading you guys out of this? And it's just this whole thing. I just remember like I was, I was like pissed off, obviously. We, we take a courtyard. I fixed my rifle. We make our way back. We debrief the mission. We kind of figure out what happened. And I remember the guy that screwed up the head count came up and he like, he gives me this hug and I love this guy. We've always been very close. And he gives me, he's like, bro, like, I am so sorry. I'm like, man, that wasn't your fault. Like, you know, but he was just like super apologetic of it. And, and Mikey, Mikey came up and we were talking. He's like, bro, he's like, if I would have been

• 2:29:40JP Dinnell?

  with you, that wouldn't have happened, man. Like, this is, this is my fault, man. I'm sorry. And, you know, Seth takes ownership of it as well, you know, and I'm talking through it. I'm like, guys, this is my fault. You know, so like, we're all like, kind of figuring it out. But it was just, I remember just the look on Mikey's face of he felt like he had failed me because he wasn't by me. And I always said, hey, man, I need you by my side. Because if I'm a sniper, I need a machine gunner for multiple reasons. And, and I just remember like, and after that, like, you know, we got our, our gear squared away. Like, why was a radio on my back? I shouldn't have had my radio back there. I should have been able, you know, there's all these things that were obviously, it was, it was my fault. At the end of the day, it was 100% my fault. But I just,

• 2:30:25JP Dinnell?

  as you were sharing that story about like, the psychological side to what you did with the helmet, it was, it was the same thing that I did with Mikey when I was like, hey, I need you by my side. And there's gonna be times that team members screw up. They forget what they need to be doing. They fall, you know, there's other priorities that come, come about. Dude, we had a loss. Guys were running out of ammo. We shot every rocket that we brought with us. Guys were throwing grenades, you know, like from the rooftop all the way over to the other courtyard where there's people at. And I mean, so, I mean, we were, there was a lot of stuff going on. And I just remember just how much that affected Mikey. And we talked through it and, you know, just making sure like, hey, we're good. We're on the same page. And, you know,

• 2:31:09JP Dinnell?

  there's, there's a lot of unique situations during that deployment, you know, and.

• 2:31:14JP Dinnell?

  It's just important that people know their roles and how they affect the team.

• 2:31:18Speaker 02

  You gotta admit, when Jocko's like, "Hey, write this JP on the back of your helmet." You gotta admit, you were looking around, you were like, "Hey, he didn't ask no one else to write their names on the back of their helmet." I'm kinda the man right now.

• 2:31:31JP Dinnell?

  I mean, I still have that helmet.

• 2:31:35Jocko Willink?

  You know what's cool? When you're talking about, hey, you go back to debrief that thing, and Seth says it's his fault, and the head count guy says it's his fault, Mikey says it's his fault, you say it's your fault. And some people might look at that and go, "Well, you know, well, I guess it's that extreme ownership. Everyone's just taking ownership and what really happens." This is what I like to call overlapping fields of ownership.

• 2:31:57JP Dinnell?

  Yes.

• 2:31:57Jocko Willink?

  And what it means is, you have multiple people looking at the same problem, and we're all gonna figure out how to solve it. Because guess what? You take a situation like that, if you were to get out a surgeon's knife and start to carve away who was responsible, well, there's a bunch of people that had to make mistakes for that to occur. And if every, you know, if Mikey would've said, "Wait, where's JP?" That's it. Doesn't happen. If you would've said, "Wait, why in our hearing if you had your radio in the right spot, you would've heard calls that they're leaving." If the head count guy would've freaking counted correctly, that problem would've been solved.

• 2:32:38Jocko Willink?

  If Seth would've looked at the freaking head count guy, "Are you sure we're good?" Like, you know, like, all these things. When everyone takes ownership of the problem, look, not everyone's gonna, you know, you get freaking, your bell rung by an RPG hitting a building, you might not be counting freaking great, even if you're only counting the six.

• 2:32:56JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 2:32:56Jocko Willink?

  Right?

• 2:32:56JP Dinnell?

  And like, I knew our SOPs for when we collapsed security. You know, and I was in my own little world, solving my problems of being pinned down by an enemy sniper, not trying to put my head up, trying to figure out how I'm gonna get out of the room. But if I legitimately would've just disconnected for a split second and detached and said, "Oh, we just made the call to collapse security." It's been about 30 seconds. Guess what the guys are doing? They're collapsing security. I could've just yelled, like, "Hey, I'm in this room. I need cover fire." Like, I could've, I could've done or said something to eliminate all that confusion.

• 2:33:37Jocko Willink?

  Right. And so what you end up with is, instead of having a single point of failure,

• 2:33:44Jocko Willink?

  You have multiple, you have overlapping fields and redundancy to get problems solved. And that's what you want. That's what you want in a team. And the funny thing is, when you go to the opposite of that, if you come back and you start pointing your finger at the head count guy, I go, why did you get a good head count? You know what he's gonna do? He's gonna say, cuz I didn't have any cover fire when I stepped out of the building.

• 2:34:07JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 2:34:08Jocko Willink?

  And then, you know, and he points at the A dub and says, why weren't you giving me cover fire? And he goes, why I wasn't giving you cover fire? Cuz we didn't have enough time to reload our weapons cuz you made the calls too fast. And then Seth says, you know, Seth, why'd you make the call? You told us to, to, to, that we were gonna break out, but you gave us only 15 seconds. How am I supposed to do a reload? And then Seth says, well, why aren't you training when we're back here so that you can do a faster reload? And what do we have? Instead of extreme ownership, ownership overlapping, we've got no one. No one's responsible for what happened, and therefore, we don't fix the freaking problem.

• 2:34:41JP Dinnell?

  And

• 2:34:44JP Dinnell?

  what you're saying is like, people say, oh, is this extreme ownership? When you say it's my fault, that's not taking ownership. Extreme ownership is owning the problems and the solution.

• 2:34:53Jocko Willink?

  It's my fault, and I'm moving my radio to here.

• 2:34:56JP Dinnell?

  Yes.

• 2:34:56Jocko Willink?

  And it's my fault, which means, hey, I'm gonna start getting the head counts just inside the door instead of outside the door. And it's, hey, when I break, when, when I call breakouts, we're gonna, I'm gonna give everyone a solid minute. And when I say breakout, that means change ammo, get ready to rock and roll. Like, all those little things, that's what we are all gonna do to win.

• 2:35:15Jocko Willink?

  You'd think that this was, um,

• 2:35:18Jocko Willink?

  it's weird, and, and you can see how each one of those people in the, in this particular situation, you could see how if you let your ego get in the way, you don't take ownership. You instead blame other people.

• 2:35:31Jocko Willink?

  Freaking horrible.

• 2:35:35Jocko Willink?

  So those are the kind of lessons that,

• 2:35:40Jocko Willink?

  you know, we learn on the battlefield and they're so obvious when you're on the battlefield. The consequences are so high. I mean, you think about the consequences of you being left behind. You know, it's a, it's one of those miracles that you were able to link back up and there's, that's one of the things that you always have to do. You know, we call those lessons that they were a cheap lesson, right? The price that could have been paid to learn that lesson could have been dead JP. But got away with it, got away with it by the grace of God and you still come back. The, the, the team looks at itself and says, what can we do better? And it's, you know, take, being able to take these lessons and I think that's why in the, in the business world,

• 2:36:26Jocko Willink?

  people relate to them because they are high stakes situations and sometimes in the business world, the consequences, they're not as high and the feedback isn't as immediate in the business world. You know, if you make a mistake in the business world, maybe it's, you know, takes three months before your profits start to fall and you, you can kind of identify what the problem was and it was a leadership mistake here and there. And now we can start to adjust those things in combat. It's like, no, I made a mistake right now and I'm paying for it right now. And so it makes the lessons, it makes the lessons very obvious. It's just a, it's these, these battlefield metaphors is why I think people relate to what we talk about, not because,

• 2:37:11Jocko Willink?

  not because they, they, they want to be, you know, soldiers, not because they want to be in war, but because they want to learn the lessons and it's a powerful way to learn them when you see them through the examples of combat.

• 2:37:29Jocko Willink?

  So at this point in 2017, you're kind of getting on step.

• 2:37:38JP Dinnell?

  Yes. Yeah, I was, I was on step with the workload. You know, it started, like I said, after May, it really started to pick up. And there's always a delay in what we do. Like, hey, there's a, Jamie would be like, hey, you got a bunch of gigs coming your way. I'm like, cool. She's like, it's not until like November, December, January next year. I'm like, okay, cool. Like I'm, I'm super happy. Or she'll be like, hey, I have one that's in three weeks. I'm like, yes, book it. Right? Like, it was just, it was unique. It was a unique situation that we're in. Um, you know, we had the, we had muster 003 down in Austin, Texas. And that was, it was awesome. Like that was a great muster, learned a lot. And, you know, I learned about my limitations. And I

• 2:38:22JP Dinnell?

  remember I was just going, going, going, going, going. Cause I had all the other stuff I was still doing. And then in, it wasn't until June that I, I stopped doing all the other things. So I was doing everything with Echelon Front. I was doing all the shooting. I was doing the construction. I was delivering the pizzas. I was doing the Never Settle apparel. I was doing all this. I had buddies that were back in Mississippi that were fighting. So I would wake up and I would train with them in the morning. My buddy Jesse James Wallace, Teddy Holder, Zach Underwood, all these guys that had fights that were coming up. I was like, yeah, let's train. I'll train in the morning. My buddy Dylan that was helping me out with stuff, like it's trying to get him on the path for, cause he wanted, you know, to be able to go in the military and law enforcement. And so I would just was doing a lot, a lot, a lot,

• 2:39:07JP Dinnell?

  which is good. Because I would see your workload. I would see Lace's workload. And I knew what I needed to be doing. And I've never been afraid of hard work. Like, hard work's a great thing. I mean, look at, like, you know, my dad, you know, my, my family, like, they're all about working hard. And that's, it's all I ever also knew in the military as well. And I'm not saying I'm the hardest worker. I'm not saying that's the smartest work. I just, I enjoy hard work. I have, I love it. And so I just was working hard, working hard, working hard, working hard. And the valuable lesson I learned at muster 003 was, I need to be comfortable with my limitations and be who I am. I was trying to be Jaco and Lace. Cause that's all I thought

• 2:39:52JP Dinnell?

  I needed to do. I thought if I was like Jaco and Lace, That's what would, that's where I would achieve success. That's how I'd fit in on the team. Instead of focusing on being the best version of who I am, being who God created. Like God created me a certain way. I have a certain personality. You know, I am, I am made the way I am made for a reason. Just like you're made the way you are for a reason. You've been able to figure out exactly what makes you the most effective. And you capitalized on that. Just like Leif has, just like Dave has, just like all the other members of the Echelon Front team are, have, or they're learning to do, right?

• 2:40:33JP Dinnell?

  And so at that point, I, I was running myself into the ground. And I, I remember one time I gave the analogy to somebody. I said, and this is so foolish of myself at the time. This just shows like immaturity in the, in the business sense. Of, I give the analogy and I thought this was like a, like a sense of honor, right? I said, I'm burning the candle at both ends and there's a flame torch over the middle. Like I'm just literally just burning it at both ends and I'm torching the middle of the candle. I'm just doing everything. And it was super humbling because we're at the muster. I spoke on that first day.

• 2:41:16JP Dinnell?

  We, you know, PT, we do the muster and we're doing our rehearsals that night. And I, I just, I remember like Jen and Jamie were like, JP, are you okay? I'm like, yeah, I'm good. And Leif was like, you good? I'm like, I'm just, I'm, I'm beat. I'm exhausted. And he's like, okay. So we, we do our stuff and you guys were signing certificates and books. And so I was staying up there and finally like Jamie's like, go, go get some rest. I'm like, okay. So I go to my room, block out the room, set my alarm, call, wake up call, set the alarm on my watch. Set the alarms on my phone and you know, from, learn from you and Leif is like, you should always also travel with a battery powered alarm clock. In case the power goes out, everything's dead. Like you can at least wake up to that. Have that across the room.

• 2:42:01JP Dinnell?

  I mean, I think I had like five or seven like alarms set. And I, I wake up to the phone and I'm, I'm like, we're trying to figure out what's going on because the room is pitch black. And I hear Leif's like, hey, it's Leif. Are you okay? And at first I thought it was like a dream. And then I kind of like I sat up in the bed and I realized I was like, yeah, what's up? He's like, I just just want to make sure you're okay. Like, yeah, I'm good. And I looked at the clock. And as I look at the clock and processed the time. He says, hey, do you think you can make it downstairs? In 10 minutes so we can do some recording before the muster starts? I was like, yes, sir. And I hung up the phone.

• 2:42:47JP Dinnell?

  And it was like 7:40.

• 2:42:51Jocko Willink?

  Wow. And PT had taken place at 4:45 with the whole.

• 2:42:55JP Dinnell?

  With the whole group. And PT before that, that we normally do had taken part at like 3:45 or 4:00, whatever time it was. Cause we PT before the group PTs and then group PT. And I missed out on all that. And I was supposed to be running a section and, and everything. And I admit, Leif wasn't like, he wasn't like screaming at me over the phone or, or anything else like that. And he just, you know, made sure I was okay. He's like, hey, can you make it down here? I'm like, yeah. And I just remember I had all my stuff lined up. I always have my stuff ready for the next day. I'm not going to, you know, cause I know what could happen. And so I remember I'm like jumping in the shower and I am so mad at myself. Like I am so upset with myself and disappointed.

• 2:43:39JP Dinnell?

  And I said, well, you just screwed up the best thing you ever had.

• 2:43:44JP Dinnell?

  Cause I'm like.

• 2:43:45Jocko Willink?

  This jock was going to fire me.

• 2:43:48JP Dinnell?

  I didn't know, like, you know, I guess I also understand there is no slack with what we do. It's been made very clear, like, hey, we don't miss events. We don't drink on the road with clients. We don't do like, there's a list of things that we just don't do. And me missing a morning PT at the muster is something that we don't do. And so I go down there and, you know, I'm doing the recording with Joel and he was like, hey man, I missed you this morning. I'm like.

• 2:44:17Jocko Willink?

  Little dig from Joel.

• 2:44:19JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, but he was, you know, I was like, I saw Echo and Echo was like, hey, man, you good? I'm like.

• 2:44:25Jocko Willink?

  Oh.

• 2:44:26JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 2:44:28Jocko Willink?

  The Hawaiian coming in hot.

• 2:44:29JP Dinnell?

  I'm like.

• 2:44:30Jocko Willink?

  You good?

• 2:44:31JP Dinnell?

  Dreading, I'm dreading seeing you and Leif. And like you come around and you just have this big smile on your face and you're laughing like laughing right now. You're like, you good? I'm like, yes, sir. I was like, I'm, I, I don't know what happened. I was like, I'm, he's like, oh, good. You just want to make sure you're good. He's like, and then you told me like, and then Leif comes up and he has this big smile. He's like, you good to go? I'm like, yes, sir. And you guys are laughing. You're like, we were, Jaco was joking about how we should just let you sleep until you woke up. And just to see like what you would do. And I remember just the thought of that was like, I don't know what I, if I would have just kept sleeping and then woken up at like, whenever, I don't know.

• 2:45:14Jocko Willink?

  Three o'clock in the afternoon.

• 2:45:16JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, three o'clock in the afternoon.

• 2:45:17Jocko Willink?

  Come down for the closing of the muster.

• 2:45:18JP Dinnell?

  I probably would have just gone straight to the airport and be like, here's my two week notice. It's been real. Thanks, guys. No, I don't, I, I don't know what I would have done. I'm really glad you guys didn't do that because I would have been devastating. And I just remember I had to like, recognize like, you know what? You need to find a little more balance. And, you know, it's, it's embarrassing. That's, that's, that's, that's a humbling experience when you need to understand that you're at your capacity because most people don't want to admit that. And, you know, let, um, Seth was so dialed in with us that he knew our, our capacities as individuals. And that to me is just a sign of a great leader.

• 2:46:02JP Dinnell?

  And you and Leif have always been able to do that with the guys that you guys work with and. You guys understood what happened, you know, you, you know, and, and we, we had a conversation. And as, as I'm sitting here joking and we're laughing and you guys are laughing. There was also this like, hey, like, we need to know, like, are you good? Is everything okay? Like, why did this happen type of the thing like, cause this can't happen on the road. You know, you can't be missing an event. You know, and, and so kind of pushed through that. And then I had like five weeks off, like I had nothing booked. And so, man, I like, at this time, we're traveling a lot, you know, a lot of rental cars had a bunch of credits.

• 2:46:44JP Dinnell?

  And so we rented an SUV and we just traveled and we, we, we hit 13 states. And we made ourself our way out to California, just spent some time with my grandmother. And then we worked our way down to Southern California. I had an event Jeff McGreevy put on. It was a big individual ticket sale event for me to do a full day of training. It was like a really cool thing that he's like, hey, you know, we want the proceeds to be able to go towards this, this foundation that we have for the police officers in this region. And, you know, we, we discounted our price at Echelon Front to, you know, for us to be able to do that. So they could have as much, they could go to this foundation as possible. And it was cool because my, my, Amanda and the kids were able to come and they're able to see it and watch it.

• 2:47:29JP Dinnell?

  And I, I'll, I'll post it, um, probably the next week or two, but I took a picture. When they're there, all three of the kids were taking notes. And, you know, I mean, my daughters were born in 2012. This is 2017, so the girls are five, right? They're about five and a half years old and they're writing down the dichotomy of leadership. When I was doing that slide and they're like writing down all the different things on it. And it was, it was really cool to see that. And that event that Jeff put on, it was awesome, it was very fulfilling. And I was, that's when I was starting to kind of just, things were clicking a little bit more. And I was gaining more confidence in myself because I always, unfortunately, even though I tend to be a very confident

• 2:48:11JP Dinnell?

  person in most aspects of my life, when it came to speaking, I was super insecure because I grew up with a speech impediment. I was in speech therapy all throughout school. I, I stutter, I mix up my words. I'm sure some people will hear it on the podcast like, oh yeah, he said that instead of this. Like Lace giving me real time feedback. We've been at an event, we'll have a break. He's like, hey, that word doesn't exist that you keep saying.

• 2:48:36JP Dinnell?

  Oh, check. Okay. Like, I'll make sure that I don't say that.

• 2:48:41JP Dinnell?

  There's other things that, you know, he's been great on coaching me on like, hey, like, make sure you're not saying this and doing this this way. But I always had that insecurity and, you know, just working through it and seeing the impact that we were delivering at Echelon Front, it was a very clear realization to myself that this isn't about me. And it brought me back to when I was on the stage with Leif.

• 2:49:06JP Dinnell?

  And he corrected my answer for the best, you know, anti-snipers, he was a tank, right? And again, there was that realization like, oh, this isn't about what I did as a sniper. It's not about what we did. And I was really starting to fully understand

• 2:49:22JP Dinnell?

  how much of an impact that Echelon Front was having. It was when I saw, like, people driving six hours just to meet you and Leif. Like, they couldn't afford the muster, but they would drive just to come see you guys, just to get their picture and say, you guys restored our marriage. And people that have your guys' signatures tattooed on their forearms, they have good tattooed on their forearms, and discipline equals freedom. And just, I was really seeing, like, wow, this is so much bigger than I thought it could be. And I started to allow some doubt to creep in and saying, I don't know if you deserve to be a part of this anymore. Because I was seeing how big it was. And, you know, Dave is just crushing it. And you guys are doing great things. And it's incredible.

• 2:50:08JP Dinnell?

  And that was, it was, you know, another God thing is like, that is about the time, you know, Seth and I were really starting to communicate a lot. Like, he would send me pictures of him out going, doing stuff, or, you know, some videos. And, you know, I remember when him telling me...

• 2:50:33JP Dinnell?

  He sent me a message and he said, "Hey,

• 2:50:38JP Dinnell?

  I'm really proud of you."

• 2:50:43JP Dinnell?

  He said, "Jaco told me how well you're doing."

• 2:50:47JP Dinnell?

  He's like, "I'm really proud of everything that Jaco, Leif, and you're doing. You're doing awesome."

• 2:50:56JP Dinnell?

  And I, you know, I still have those messages saved and I just,

• 2:51:01JP Dinnell?

  it was, it was again, it was something that I needed, right? It was, I think that we all need and we all need, you know, people in your life that are going to pour into you, they're going to feed you, you know, feed into you and, and, and help, you know, with that confidence. And, and that's what you guys have here at this gym. And that's what you guys have in jujitsu. That's what we had in the SEAL teams. That's what we have at Echelon Front. And it was just Seth being Seth, Seth being that, that servant leader, that serving others. Like, "I'm not in the military. I haven't been in, at this point, I haven't been in for, you know, four, four and a half years." Like, he's doing his thing. He's, and he's still taking the time to reach out and, and say, "Hey, man, I just want to let you know that I'm proud of you."

• 2:51:43JP Dinnell?

  And for me,

• 2:51:47JP Dinnell?

  for, for a while, I, I really, when I got out, I tried to push myself away from all the guys. Cause I had a guilt for getting out of the military, of not being in the SEAL teams. The, the guilt of me not being on that rooftop when Mikey jumped on the grenade is something I think about every single day because, again, Mikey was one of my new guys. That was Overwatch that I was supposed to be on. And I didn't, I wasn't there. And there's other buddies that had been killed and me not being in situations that I felt like I should have been. And, and so for a long time, I just pushed everybody away. I wouldn't respond to people.

• 2:52:28JP Dinnell?

  And I would make things up in my mind in regards to like, "Well, we're not even that close anyways," or he, you know, "He doesn't even like me," or, you know, like, "He's pissed off at me about something." I was legitimately making stuff up in my mind so that I would feel better for pushing people away.

• 2:52:45JP Dinnell?

  And I tried to do that with Seth for a long time. Cause I just had this immense amount of guilt.

• 2:52:54JP Dinnell?

  And you know, I doubted myself. And I doubted him. I doubted Jaco and I doubted everybody that I had worked for. When, when Mikey was killed. And I held on to that for a long time. And Seth continued to just knock on the door, you know? He just continued to reach out and continue to rebuild those relationships. And things were really good. And Seth and I were talking and communicating. And you know, he did a cross-country trip on his, on his motorcycle and he came through and we were able to link up and it was just, it was great.

• 2:53:39JP Dinnell?

  And then September 2017.

• 2:53:43JP Dinnell?

  Leif Babbin's calling me. I look down and it's a picture of Leif and I in our, in our rash guards when we were training in, in New Jersey, right? You were teaching Leif and I jujitsu. Was that New York? New, New York? Yeah, New York, yeah, for that FTX. And it's just a great picture. It always makes me smile. And so Leif's calling me. And I answer the phone. I'm all excited. I'm like, hey, what's up, boss? He says, hey JP. And it was that hey JP call that I'd gotten a handful of other times. I just, I, I knew something had happened. And he informed me that Seth had passed away.

• 2:54:22JP Dinnell?

  And I couldn't process it. It didn't make sense to me because that morning I was messaging with Seth.

• 2:54:29JP Dinnell?

  And the last thing I had said to Seth was, hit me up when you're done.

• 2:54:36JP Dinnell?

  And so I was waiting to have a response from Seth.

• 2:54:42JP Dinnell?

  And Leif tells me what happened. And the kids are coming up and they're trying to talk to me. I'm trying to like push them away and say, hey, hold on, I'm on the phone for work. Just give me a second and.

• 2:55:00JP Dinnell?

  I get off the phone with Leif and I remember just like looking at the kids. And I call Amanda, I said, hey, can your, can your parents come pick up the kids? Cause she was working at her business at the time. She had a, a business that she'd opened up and I said, hey Seth, Seth just passed away.

• 2:55:21JP Dinnell?

  And she was trying to process it as well and it just didn't make sense to her. And she said, yeah, I'll have my parents come over and her parents come over and I just remember I was like,

• 2:55:35JP Dinnell?

  like I got the kids ready.

• 2:55:41JP Dinnell?

  It was like I was a coward. I sat in the kitchen as they grabbed the kids. I didn't even meet them at the door. Cause I didn't know what to do. I, I, I couldn't process that Seth had actually passed away. I was talking to him that morning. Seth was my big brother. He was, you know, we went through SKT together. We checked in SEAL teams together and he always had my back. I just couldn't fathom my brother passing away.

• 2:56:12JP Dinnell?

  Is the way I looked at Seth is the way that my little brother looks at me. You know, I've always had my, my brother Corey's back and I always will. And Corey's always had mine. That's the way Seth was to me. And I just, I couldn't, I couldn't process it. And I, I literally, I just sat in the kitchen. As they came into the house and they grabbed the kids and my, my following law Jeff said, I'm very sorry for your loss. And they grabbed the kids and they left. My mother-in-law looked at me and she was, you know, sad and she didn't really know what to say either. And so he left him. I tried to call Jaco and, cause I just knew what Seth meant to him. That was his best friend. And I just, I was so worried about Jaco. And I couldn't get ahold of him, understandably so.

• 2:56:57JP Dinnell?

  And I called Jamie and I said, hey Seth Stone just passed away. I just want to give you the heads up. You're going to need to clear everything from Jaco's calendar for a while. I don't know what's going on. I don't know the process. I don't, I don't know anything, but just want to give you the heads up. And she was just like, this is horrible. She's like, I'm so sorry. And I said, I just, I want to give you the heads up because I don't know when you'll hear it from Jaco, but it's something that you need to know. And then I just, I started the phone tree of calling guys and everybody in our platoon, just trying to find numbers and get ahold of guys and trying to process it through a different guys, just trying to understand it and you know, it was.

• 2:57:44JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, it was, it was, you know, a big blow, obviously to everybody that knew Seth. You know, and it was weird because all of us had this open period on our calendars at that time.

• 2:58:03JP Dinnell?

  Maybe I'm superstitious, but every time I see a, I'll look at all of our calendars and I'm always like making sure that there's never like a gap that's open for all of our calendars. Because I know that doesn't make sense to people when you say God has a plan and our days are numbered. But I believe in that. And Seth, Seth's last day was, was already planned and God knew when that was going to happen. And I know it's hard to understand and process that because it, the world was a better place with Seth and he impacted so many lives and he made such an amazing difference. And it doesn't, it just doesn't seem sense for him to be gone.

• 2:58:46JP Dinnell?

  But God knew what was going to happen. And the fact that we all had that block open to be able to do, do our events and, and, and make everything that we needed to do with the, with the funeral and the, the different services was, was, was unique. Um, you know, and, you know, came, came back to San Diego and, you know, last time I was in my uniform was, was for that. And I was still within that window of being able to wear my uniform. And, you know, it was, um,

• 2:59:24JP Dinnell?

  It was a powerful

• 2:59:29JP Dinnell?

  event, seeing all the guys. And, um,

• 2:59:36JP Dinnell?

  you know, I, I was standing watch over Seth at the funeral home. And guys had different, you know, different washes or stand over and the command was,

• 2:59:49JP Dinnell?

  they had all these guys that were from SEAL Team through there, Roger up to, to stand watch over him. And myself and a bunch of the other guys were like, no, we're going to stand watch over Seth. That's like, this is what we need to be doing. And the command was awesome. These new guys are super fired up and squared away and very professional. And they understand who Seth was and the impact that he had. And, and we were watching over the guys and I remember I was at the funeral home and

• 3:00:16JP Dinnell?

  I was standing there in my uniform and the family members are coming in and you're standing there at attention and, you know, people were saying, hey, thank you. Appreciate you being here. And, you know, they're coming in and you just see the pain and, you know, the sorrow on, on their faces and you see the, see it in their bodies or walking up. And, you know, family members that are getting close and they pause because they don't want to actually walk inside that building.

• 3:00:40JP Dinnell?

  And

• 3:00:42JP Dinnell?

  I remember seeing Leif there and I remember seeing Jaco walking up with his family.

• 3:00:52JP Dinnell?

  And they, they came to the outside and they were talking and seeing each other. And there's like the bro hugs and like the half hugs with family members and full hugs. And I'm just standing there and I remember

• 3:01:09JP Dinnell?

  as they were getting ready to walk in, they, they did what everybody else did is they, there was that pause.

• 3:01:17JP Dinnell?

  Because they knew, once they walked in, it made it real.

• 3:01:23JP Dinnell?

  And just like Jaco has always done, head up, chest out, takes a breath, walks inside with his family.

• 3:01:33JP Dinnell?

  Leif does the same thing. They go inside.

• 3:01:37JP Dinnell?

  And I'm just standing outside and

• 3:01:43JP Dinnell?

  everyone has their time in there. They pay their respects and then everyone leaves and it was

• 3:01:51JP Dinnell?

  Leif, I think it was Leif that pulled me in and it was just the three of us.

• 3:02:01JP Dinnell?

  And we were, we were paying our final respects to Seth and his casket was open. He's in his uniform.

• 3:02:09JP Dinnell?

  And

• 3:02:12JP Dinnell?

  Leif placed some patches in there. I took the bracelet that was off my wrist that had Mark's name and Mikey's name and Ryan Job's name on there. And a handful of other guys that were on there and I took it off and I placed it inside the casket.

• 3:02:33JP Dinnell?

  I remember just like, just like touching Seth's arm and just it's being real and you know, just said a quick little prayer. And stepped back and Jaco went forward and he presented Seth with his black belt. And there was some surf wax that was placed in there as well.

• 3:02:58JP Dinnell?

  And it was completely silent.

• 3:03:01JP Dinnell?

  And

• 3:03:03JP Dinnell?

  Jaco comes back. And we're kind of standing there and we just all kind of have our heads down, but we're kind of looking at each other and we're kind of looking at Seth and

• 3:03:15JP Dinnell?

  Jaco breaks the silence and he just says a very simple but powerful statement. He says,

• 3:03:23JP Dinnell?

  "We will not fail.

• 3:03:26JP Dinnell?

  We will not fail Seth. We will not fail the guys."

• 3:03:35JP Dinnell?

  And that was it. It was a very powerful statement that I have thought about every single day since we laid Seth the rest.

• 3:03:49JP Dinnell?

  Seth

• 3:03:52JP Dinnell?

  never failed us.

• 3:03:57JP Dinnell?

  And that's what Jaco, he went on to say as well is that Seth, he said Seth never failed us. We will not fail them.

• 3:04:09JP Dinnell?

  And then it was back to business as normal. And it just reminded me of

• 3:04:19JP Dinnell?

  the teams.

• 3:04:22JP Dinnell?

  It's obviously

• 3:04:25JP Dinnell?

  a horrible situation to lose somebody.

• 3:04:29JP Dinnell?

  But we still have a mission that we have to achieve. We still have to push forward. And that's exactly what our brothers would want us to do.

• 3:04:44JP Dinnell?

  We cannot fail them.

• 3:05:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, just to

• 3:05:12Jocko Willink?

  just to make sure everyone kind of knows that when JP says, you know, well then we moved on. Just, just make sure that everybody knows that

• 3:05:26Jocko Willink?

  you just don't get to move on. I mean, you, you, you have to, but it doesn't feel like, okay, we can move on now. And, and I know I've unfortunately had to, had to, I've had to speak about what you do when you lose someone and what it feels like. And there's a reason why I've been able to talk about that. An unfortunate reason is because I've lost a lot of friends. And seen people lose friends and seen the

• 3:05:57Jocko Willink?

  the

• 3:06:01Jocko Willink?

  The situation unfold, not just from my own personal experience, but

• 3:06:07Jocko Willink?

  from watching other people go through it and you don't, you, you move on, you have to, but don't think that you are gonna be everything normal in a week, on a month, or in a year. And that's just not the way, you just don't get to do that. And you don't, I don't want to do that.

• 3:06:33JP Dinnell?

  I don't think anything ever goes back to normal.

• 3:06:35Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 3:06:36JP Dinnell?

  Because the normal was when they are with us. And that's not a reality anymore. And that is something that we all had to learn to, to deal with and work through. And, you know, when, when you were saying like, hey, I just want to be clear, when JB said to move on, if you don't, it's not like you move on like that it never happened and you forget.

• 3:06:58JP Dinnell?

  Like when we came back from Ramadi, you know, you come back from that deployment from Ramadi. And what do you come back from, like, we've talked, like, every company we talked to, we always ask, like, hey, what do you come back from a deployment like that with? There's a lot of anger, there's a lot of frustration, there's darkness, there's guilt, there's all those things, but if that's all you focus on,

• 3:07:17JP Dinnell?

  where does it get you? It gets you nowhere, it gets you absolutely nowhere in life. And the, the conversation that you had with Leif and I about us not failing them is something that I hope everybody can just truly understand and, and, and realize that, hey, you can live your life in a way to honor them. And maybe it's not to honor our brothers, maybe it's not to honor anybody in the military, but there's somebody in your life,

• 3:07:46JP Dinnell?

  somebody has sacrificed something so that you can at least be in the situation that you're in. And you can live your life to honor them, you can live your, you can live your life.

• 3:07:57JP Dinnell?

  One or two ways. You can allow it to fall apart, or you can, you can build it up and you can, you can move forward with your mission to achieve your mission. And that's what a lot of veterans struggle with is understanding, how can you even have a mission? You've experienced all this loss. You've experienced all this devastation. How, how do you actually find a new mission? How do you find a new way? How do you stay on the path? How do you even get back on the path? And the loss of Seth was obviously devastating to everybody that knew him.

• 3:08:36JP Dinnell?

  You know, I, I choose to remember his laugh. I choose to remember that smile, how he would come up and he would just like, he would always like, kind of like slap me on the back and kind of grab my trap and just be like, just a little shake and you're just like, he's such a strong, powerful guy. When you do that, you're like, okay, you know, but, you know, and he was, he always, he always was taking care of people. And I, I think if we can try to live our lives similar to that, and just try to be like Seth and Mikey and Mark and Ryan and, you know, all the other guys that we've lost. And I, I just, I really believe that if people can understand

• 3:09:19JP Dinnell?

  the situations that they're in and how good that they have it, and to be thankful for the opportunities that they have,

• 3:09:27JP Dinnell?

  they'll achieve what they want in their life.

• 3:09:30JP Dinnell?

  And for me, that's, I think a, a big learning point that I had over these last four years was just maintaining the gratitude mindset that I had of just being thankful for the opportunities. And, you know, that's, that's why we moved to Texas. It was because I knew that if I was centrally located, it would be the best thing for Echelon Front for travel and just of being able to interact with as many clients as possible. And it was either going to be centrally located in Texas or San Diego here with you, right? So Leif was in Texas, you were in San Diego. I knew Dallas-Fort Worth was an amazing airport. It was going to be good for travel. And so that's why we moved. We moved from Mississippi to be to be centrally located

• 3:10:14JP Dinnell?

  for what we perceived was the best for Echelon Front because I was so grateful for this opportunity. And I I wanted to make the absolute best of what we had. And then as as a company's grown, you know, went from just being a instructor and a speaker to we had the opportunity after muster 004 in San Diego when we're like kind of defining, okay, roles and responsibilities as a company's growing. You know, and you guys, you know, made me the director of our experiential leadership training program, all the hands-on scenario-based leadership training that we do. And, you know, this was another big opportunity that I had. I said, you know, and I understood the the potential and I understand how important it was at the company.

• 3:10:57JP Dinnell?

  And, you know, just to be able to grow a department within Echelon Front was it's it's been amazing. It's been a great learning experience for myself and, you know, making sure that as we're growing the company, you know, you know, brought on Cody. He's been helping run, he was the operations manager for all the field training exercises that we run. And he's a, you know, former Marine, he's super squared away. Came out to one of the first big FTXs that we're doing. We had a group of super squared away guys there. And, you know, he really stepped up and and took ownership of of the team, of the scenarios, of the training, understood it. And, you know, he was also in a position where we could provide him like, hey,

• 3:11:39JP Dinnell?

  here's here's an opportunity that we have. We'd love to have you come on full board with the team. You know, and so throughout 2018, we're growing out the FTX program, speaking, traveling a bunch. 2019, same thing, like crazy busy, bunch of FTXs, seeing the growth of the team. You know, Dave growing up, growing out the leadership development alignment programs and just the partnerships with all the different companies that we had. It was, you know. It's just been crazy to see the transition and you know, obviously us talking about Seth is that's a heavy, deep topic, but it's part of these last four years. And you know, the last

• 3:12:20JP Dinnell?

  four years has been an amazing opportunity that I am forever thankful and grateful to you and Leif for giving me. And you and Leif always say it, and I believe it. And it's, we're only getting started. And the impact that the book, Extreme Ownership, and the Academy of Leadership that you and Leif wrote, to see the impact, to see it changing people's lives. I mean, there's been people that have lost 100 plus pounds. There's been people that have regained their marriages. There's been companies that came and reached out to you and Leif and said, hey, this is our

• 3:13:02JP Dinnell?

  last ditch effort. If we don't fix something, we're going out of business. And to see them be able to apply the principles, the laws of combat, the mindset of victory, to understand the different dichotomies that we all experience as individuals and as leaders, to see them apply those things and see them to turn around their personal and professional lives, it's just been incredible. And knowing where we will be going with, you know, EF Online, to see that grow and develop into what it is right now. I mean, the value in Echelon Front material is just, it's hard to figure that out. I mean, just because you were talking about on one of the sessions

• 3:13:45JP Dinnell?

  the other day, it's like, hey, we didn't know what at the beginning. And you know, the market kind of, you know, dictates that for us and we understand the demand. But to see the value that people are getting from EF Online is absolutely incredible. And to see the Eldaps that Dave has created and Overwatch and everything that Mike Sorelli has been doing over there, and to see the impact of placing veterans and how it ties back to Echelon Front and, you know, EF Battlefield that, you know, Steve and Jason and Mike just created and just, man, I was, I was a little sad that I wasn't there. I mean, I understood that I didn't need to be there.

• 3:14:20Jocko Willink?

  I could tell you were getting all jealous and felt like you were messing out. Like, hey, how was it? And actually, Dave was the same way. And both of you guys were like, oh, how was it? You know, like, and you were hoping that I was gonna say, oh, it was fine. And I was like, it was awesome.

• 3:14:34JP Dinnell?

  No, I was never.

• 3:14:35Jocko Willink?

  You guys know, I don't throw that, you guys know, I don't throw that around easily.

• 3:14:38JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 3:14:38Jocko Willink?

  When I, cause, cause the EF Battlefield is awesome. It's aw, it's awesome.

• 3:14:42JP Dinnell?

  It's amazing.

• 3:14:43Jocko Willink?

  And yeah, I could tell both you guys like, oh, how was it? And I'm not saying you were hoping it was bad, but it hurt when I said it was freaking awesome. Dave re-asked me the question immediately. He goes, he goes, oh, he goes, oh, how was the EF Battlefield? And I go, it was freaking awesome. And he goes, EF Battlefield? Like he, he re-asked me the question to make sure that he was actually hearing it. He was, you know, I mean, he's super stoked and he's gonna be, I mean, everyone's gonna be stoked when you go do it.

• 3:15:12JP Dinnell?

  It was, yeah, it was like the, you know, the field training exercises when you and Leif came out and saw what, what it had progressed into and what we were doing out up in Michigan with our large client up there. Like for you and Leif both to be like, this is awesome. And just to see the impact. And now like, I mean, just to, it's crazy to see what's happened over the last four years. I mean, we haven't even talked about just, you know, what we've been able to do with Origin and Jaco Fuel. I mean, I mean, it's ridiculous. I have a sour apple sniper, disappointed go drink, sitting in front of me with my signature on the side. I mean, the go time series that they did, that little mini documentary on me. I mean, that has 2.2 million views on YouTube organically.

• 3:15:58JP Dinnell?

  Like that's all organic and just, it's, it's crazy. I guess talking to my buddy, Michael and a few other people in my, you know, two of my best friends in Texas, Steven Little and Dane, you know, Dane's helped out with FTXs and he's helped, brought, came out to the musters and you know, just my really close friends, understanding like what's been happening and what's going on. And it's, it's just incredible. I mean, to see the situation where four years ago.

• 3:16:25JP Dinnell?

  We had no money. And now, like as we're looking to buy a house, we're in a situation that it's pure comfort. It's a completely different scenario. I mean, the coronavirus hit. Not once have I ever been in a stressed situation over finances. When this all hit, I gave you an update of my status and you're like, okay, I feel good to go. And I let Leif know and it was, you know how I am with my finances. I'm very private. I don't like people knowing what I make. I don't, I just, I'm not like that. I've never been like that. I don't like the people on social media that are like bragging about like, I made this much money last month. Who cares? Like, okay, cool. Great.

• 3:17:06JP Dinnell?

  I'm not like that, but I knew that I had to give you guys that situation update of like, hey, you know what? Everything and Leif, since day one, he's been amazing working with me on, hey, investments, savings, you know, just making sure that I knew I was being, taking care of being studious with my money. And Amanda and I have been very studious with our, with our savings and just our lifestyle. It's not crazy. And we're in this situation to her when all this hit. I told you, I was like, I can have no income for the next year and not have to change our lifestyle. Now, would I do that? No, of course I'm going to change my lifestyle. I'm gonna, I'm gonna be a little more fruitful and, and you know, we're gonna be a little more, you know, tedious over here.

• 3:17:50JP Dinnell?

  But you know, we've been able to tithe, we've been able to, to give to different charities and, and different foundations and you know, I mean, it's, it's been nice to be able to, to, to be in the situation that we're in. And it just comes down to, I mean, what you've always talked about is discipline equals freedom. And Leif has always taken the time to work with me on that. You've had in-depth conversations with me on this. I mean, I know a couple of times I've called and we get done with the call and I look at him like, that was an hour and a half call. I'm like, man, I'm really glad Jaco doesn't charge me his hourly rate because homie couldn't afford that one. But you know, I just, it's incredible, you know, and I'm always super thankful of all the blessings

• 3:18:34JP Dinnell?

  that God's given me. But I also understand.

• 3:18:39JP Dinnell?

  That you have to work for stuff. You have to work and I saw the opportunity. And I knew that I had to go all in. I had to go all in with you guys. And by me going all in, being 100% committed to what you guys had built and respecting that and like Dave and I, we've always, we always talk with the other instructors. Any new instructors like, hey, this is Jaco and Lace's company that they've built. We are a part of it, but everything we do has to honor and respect what they've built. And we understand how important that is. And just having that mindset and to see that Cody and Cowie on the FTX team, they have that same mindset. When Cody will call me about different stuff for an FTX.

• 3:19:23JP Dinnell?

  And, and my default answer, or my default answer to his question is, and he knows this, but he's always, he's just making sure we're aligned with stuff. Cause there's certain things he knows, like, hey, he has to let me know. There's certain things he just, hey, FY, this is what I did. I'm like, cool. Good. Good to go. Is the answer is what will deliver the absolute best training to our client? And whatever that is, within reason, that's what we do. We always take care of the client. We always make sure the client has the absolute best training, the absolute best experience, no matter what. That's what we will always do. And we don't cut corners. We don't, and we're not, we will always do what's best for the client.

• 3:20:04JP Dinnell?

  And if that means that, you know, training is going to run long and we're going to catch a flight the next day and we've been gone for two weeks. No factor. We're not flying home early. We don't cut training early so we can get on a flight to get back home. You know, we will spend time, you know, that's, we will always take care of the client. And it's, it's awesome to see what we're getting ready to launch with the individual FTX program. And, you know, that this is an opportunity to where is, let's say a company, they're not large enough to have a full field training exercise. They, they just can't afford it. They can't bring, you know, they don't have enough people to do it. Well, what they can do is they can send a few of their leaders to this individual FTX.

• 3:20:47JP Dinnell?

  Or let's say it's an individual like Echo and Echo's like, hey, it's just me. Like we see people come to the muster. They just come by themselves because they want to. Have more hands on of the training. They've read the book. It's some dad that wants to be a better dad. Right? We've met people that are like, hey, we just want to be better parents. That's why we came to the muster. I'm like, that's, that's awesome. They can sign up for the individual FTX and it's going to be, you know, there's different tiers to it, but it's going to be the, the, the one tier that we, we know that we're absolutely launching is that it's going to be two days of field training exercises. And you know, it's going to be a small group,

• 3:21:27JP Dinnell?

  30 or less people within that group, and it's going to be two full days of field training exercises where they're, we're putting them in stressful situations. It's all scenario based. They're going to all rotate through different positions of leadership, and we're going to give them intel and they're going to take that intel and they're going to plan their mission. And their mission is going to be a capture kill mission, or you know, they're going to go do a presence patrol through a different area. It's the same scenarios, the same training, well, not same, very similar to the same type of training that we ran in the SEAL teams. And each of these scenarios are going to be driven to enforce the leadership principles that we teach at Echelon Front. The laws of combat, the mindset of victory, the different dichotomies that you experience as a leader,

• 3:22:11JP Dinnell?

  you're going to feel it real time in training. And that's what we saw was so impactful in the SEAL teams was actual hands-on training. When you can feel that stress, we can feel that pressure, when you have to make a decision, and people are going to see voids of leadership, and they're going to see why it's important to step up and, and make a call, even when you're not in that position of leadership. You're going to see decentralized command working and decentralized command not working. You're going to feel your communication not being effective. And you're going to come back and you're, you know, you're going to, you know, be frustrated and talk through different stuff and like, Leif was talking the other day on EF Online. We, we, Leif and I were laughing at one of the FTXs because the OIC goes squad one on the left, squad one on the right. And everyone was like, it's like, nobody was moving, nobody was doing anything.

• 3:22:57JP Dinnell?

  And I remember one of the squad leaders was like, you just said squad one on the left, squad one on the right. Like, what, what do you want? And they're like, they're getting all frustrated, or they'll make a call out and they're like, the enemy's over there. And I'll always be like, over there, over there, over there. Like, kind of like, just kind of like, hey, what cardinal direction is the enemy coming from? They're like, uh, they're on the right side of the building. I'm like, your right and my right are two different.

• 3:23:22Jocko Willink?

  Are 180 degrees out right now.

• 3:23:24JP Dinnell?

  And they're like, uh, west side. And so people actually understand that they're not very good at communicating in stressful situations. And with the companies that we've done it for, I mean, I remember we've, we've been in there. I don't remember if you're that, the one in Michigan, where one of the corporate leaders was saying, you know what, I need to do a better job communicating with the union workers out in the field. I recognized that my communication sucks. And I have failed to build a relationship. And then one of the union leaders steps up and goes, hey, that's actually our fault, because I could have come and built a relation. And you're just seeing, like, we're a company where at the beginning of when we were working with them, union and

• 3:24:07JP Dinnell?

  corporate hated each other. They were like screaming at each other in the, in the classroom before we started the training. And I was like.

• 3:24:13Jocko Willink?

  And blaming each other.

• 3:24:14JP Dinnell?

  It was insane. The amount of blame was crazy. And then you see that, that culture start to shift and change from these field training exercises, because it's very humbling. Because everybody out there says, oh, I've got this. And they're planning the mission and they're just going to be, they think they're going to come in and impress us with this amazing.

• 3:24:34Jocko Willink?

  Their general George Patton.

• 3:24:35JP Dinnell?

  Yes.

• 3:24:36Jocko Willink?

  Until the laser thing starts beeping on their shoulder and they realize what's up. I, I always say, you know, that the, the training that we ran at Trade Ed was the best leadership laboratory. I, I actually have changed this statement. I used to say it was one of the best leadership laboratories in the world. I actually think that it was the best leadership laboratory in the world ever. And because, and, and not just the best leadership laboratory, but also the best leadership instruction.

• 3:25:06Jocko Willink?

  Because when you're in those situations, you learn them and it's it's they they smack you in the face. And you either address them or you get smacked again. And when you get smacked with them, it's so obvious what you did wrong. Here's the hey, listen to the, listen to the recording of what you were just saying. Squad one on the left, squad one on the right. Listen to that recording. Now, do you think you were detached when you were doing that? Do you think you were getting emotional a little bit? Do you think you had to step back? No. So that's what it feels like. And there's so that's why, you know, getting this FTX program off the ground. It's just a phenomenal way to drive these lessons home in the same way that they got driven home to us. And and if it seems, this is, this is the, this is the kind of cool thing.

• 3:25:51Jocko Willink?

  You might think, well, how the heck are we supposed to, you know, you work at a financial company? Or you work at an insurance company, or you work at a construction company? We don't know anything about tactics. How are we going to go, you know, do a mission on a presence patrol through a street? It's you spend a few hours learning these basic principles, so basic, just. And there's nothing, it's common sense, right? It's common sense. It's also the laws of combat, cover and move, keep things simple, prioritize next, you decentralize command. That's what you're going to learn. And then you learn how to apply it very quickly. And when you make mistakes, believe me, those, those mistakes that you make are the best ways to learn that you're ever going to get. So it's awesome. And and then the the EF battlefield.

• 3:26:34Jocko Willink?

  You get to, you're automatically, basically what happens in EF battlefield, you're watching the mistakes, but you can see the mistakes made by the leaders and what they did well, what they did wrong, and you're kind of detached from it. So you, again, you get to see these things firsthand and you get to stand where that leader stood and see what that leader saw in that particular situation. And those are all powerful. That's why we call it experiential learning. Cause you are experiencing what a leader experiences and and that's the best possible way to learn.

• 3:27:04JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, it's a.

• 3:27:07JP Dinnell?

  Another very proud moment of mine of just being a part of this team, being able to see that program grow, see the growth and development of Cody, of Cowie, you know, both of those guys have really stepped up. They're doing amazing things. Um, you know, and the other Echelon Front instructors that come out and help out on the FTXs and just seeing everybody being able to work together and just delivering the best training ever. And I

• 3:27:37Jocko Willink?

  We're a little biased, but I'll tell you what.

• 3:27:41JP Dinnell?

  I mean, that's not, but that's not just us saying, this is what our clients have said. This is, I mean, the feedback that we get constantly from, from people all the time. Um, and just when you see the culture of a huge company drastically shifts and change, and they're saying, hey, this is because of the field training program. Like I remember working with one company where there was just, the racial division was, was very unfortunate, and it was very real. And I remember seeing it in, in one of the headquarters that we were visiting and working with, and seeing that change after FTXs, where they're working

• 3:28:23JP Dinnell?

  together and they're understanding how important their roles and responsibilities are each other, and just see them starting to intermingle and talk with each other and just, just see those, where it was to where it's at now, it was just, was incredible. And it was, it was so powerful. Um, you know, these will be available in the very near future. Uh, if, if somebody goes to echelonfront.com.

• 3:28:43Jocko Willink?

  Oh, the individual FTX.

• 3:28:45JP Dinnell?

  Yes, the individual FTX.

• 3:28:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, just to explain that to everybody. In the past, what we've done is if you want, you gotta bring your company, you gotta bring a company of people. So you gotta bring 20 or 40 or 100 people and we run this FTX program. It's sort of like the muster. That's what we used to just do consulting for companies. And, and I realized the shortfall was we were cutting out, you know, if you had three people at a company, you can't bring an Echelon Front to do leadership training. I said, let's bring everyone together that wants to do this training into one big group and we'll do a training for them. That's the muster. That's the same thing with the, with the individual FTXs. You know, whether you bring two or three people from your team, four or five people from your team, or you just come by yourself. Either any of those scenarios, it's like, okay, now we're going to learn,

• 3:29:29Jocko Willink?

  we're going to learn these leadership lessons at a, at a. Deep level at a granular level that's going to be that's going to be burned on to your soul and it's awesome.

• 3:29:41JP Dinnell?

  And the cool thing is like these, the first ones, these are the pilot program that people are going to be able to, you know, be a part of. It's like being a part of like muster 001, like those are plank owners and people are going to be able to be plank owners of the individual FTXs. Um, you know, we were talking last night, you know, at your dinner table about the two different tiers that we know that we're going to definitely do. And one, like I said, is just the, the two full days of training and it's just going to be run after run after run after run after run. I mean, it's just going to be, you're going to have so many runs, like somebody's going to say, Hey, I'm going to have to sit this one out and somebody's listening, oh yeah, right. And I guarantee you it's going to happen because it's just the amount of, of scenarios that we're going to throw is, is going to be incredible.

• 3:30:23JP Dinnell?

  And the, the, the actual learning fundamentals that you're going to gain from those two days is there's nothing out there like it right now. There's nothing out there. And then the next tier, it's going to be a little bit longer. It'll be three days. You know, it'll be, um, with, with that group of 30, 30 or less. And, you know, it'll be one day of, you know, there can be like roundtable discussions, getting to know the, the unique differences of the different businesses, the talking through the different problems that people are going through and actually diving deep into their principles and, and addressing it with the group and having all the different individuals that are there actually contributing to like the leadership principles that we talk about and solve.

• 3:31:05JP Dinnell?

  Because as you've seen from EF online, I mean, you look at the chat, I mean, people are solving problems for each other. People ask a question and there's 20 responses. And so that's what that next tier is going to be like is where they're going to come in, we're going to have that, you know, have the group dinner, morning PTs, day of runs, dinner, morning PT, day of runs, and then like a kind of like a final, like recapping everything of, of, of roundtable. And that might be, that might be a three, three and a half day type of, uh, situation. But, uh, for the individual program, you know, people go to echelonfront.com, we'll, we'll have the information up there by the time this podcast is out. Um, you know, it's.

• 3:31:45Speaker 02

  Just stand by. It's gonna be awesome.

• 3:31:47Jocko Willink?

  Stand by to come and get some.

• 3:31:48Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 3:31:49Jocko Willink?

  Uh, speaking of getting some, I think we've been going for three and a half hours here.

• 3:31:53Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 3:31:53Jocko Willink?

  Um, so, bro, thanks for coming back on. Eh eh, I wanted to say that the reason, it's, I guess maybe it's pretty obvious. Cause people like, when are you having JP back on? I'm like, oh, as soon as we can get together. And there you have it. You look at his schedule, you look at my schedule and guess when we're getting together? Oh, it only took four years.

• 3:32:12Jocko Willink?

  There was a couple of opportunities we had where like at the muster, we couldn't, I think at one muster, we were trying to pull it off. And then like, we'd be at the muster and it'd be zero sleep and just total mayhem. Especially at the earlier musters when we weren't, we weren't as squared away as we should be. We should have been on the back end and we just need to tight, we needed to tighten things up. We need to learn and that's what we did. But yeah, so that's why it took so long, but

• 3:32:38Jocko Willink?

  freaking, thanks for coming back on and we'll, we'll try not, let's at least aim for, dude, I didn't even want to say three forty-six. That's like two years away. No, we won't let that happen. Yeah, dude, awesome to have you back on as usual.

• 3:32:54Speaker 02

  Agree.

• 3:32:56Jocko Willink?

  Thank you.

• 3:32:58Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 3:33:04Jocko Willink?

  Echo Charles.

• 3:33:05Speaker 02

  Yes, sir. What questions?

• 3:33:08Jocko Willink?

  Lots of lessons there. Lots of lessons learned from JP. Lots of lessons learned about how to get better, how to get back on the path.

• 3:33:18Jocko Willink?

  You got any suggestions for us?

• 3:33:19Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Some more suggestions. So we're gonna be being on the path, I guess, or whatever.

• 3:33:26Jocko Willink?

  You just made it through a whole, JP, we just made it through the whole podcast and we need to talk about jujitsu. That's kinda crazy.

• 3:33:33Speaker 02

  I can bring it up.

• 3:33:33Jocko Willink?

  I know.

• 3:33:34Speaker 02

  Actually.

• 3:33:36Jocko Willink?

  I'm just saying, I'm like, wow, well, I just said it's been three and a half hours and all of a sudden we're about to add another two hours of freaking talking about J J.

• 3:33:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, remember at the muster, when you slept in or whatever, what was the, what was the diagnosis there? You're just like, what? Sleep deprived, freaking exhausted.

• 3:33:54Jocko Willink?

  Wicked tired.

• 3:33:57Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's the only diagnosis.

• 3:33:58Speaker 02

  But wasn't it kind of refreshing that like, cause I'd done that before. I'm not going to say when, whatever, but let's just say that's happened to me where it's like, oh shoot, you look at the clock. You're like, man, I missed like a bunch of stuff. So then you gotta sort of re-enter the situation, you know? And so that anticipation is like, it's kind of nerve wracking to say the least. So then in your case, you got to re-enter with Jaco, Leif, not to mention everybody else sort of waiting for you, sort of. Alright, so, but, so how, I know you're mad at yourself, of course. JP's mad at himself about everything, but

• 3:34:32Speaker 02

  how much of a refreshing scenario was it that like they were kind of laughing and smiling?

• 3:34:38Jocko Willink?

  It changed everything.

• 3:34:40Speaker 02

  Totally does, right?

• 3:34:41Jocko Willink?

  Completely changed everything.

• 3:34:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, man. It's like, it's the worst. Cause like, what if, what if like, they didn't say anything? They just like, okay, JP's back, but then you kind of sense just a little bit of, you know, like they're a little bit short with you or something like that. It's like, bro, that's like an added double, triple torture right there. Like you can't do that. It's like, that's not even going to help you, you know? But if they could.

• 3:35:04Jocko Willink?

  I'm sensing, or I'm at least getting this indication that you feel some level of guilt about being late. Is that factual? Cause I'm not, I'm not seeing that, bro.

• 3:35:14Speaker 02

  No, well, if you're talking about today, my one minute late, bro.

• 3:35:18Jocko Willink?

  A minute forty-five.

• 3:35:20Speaker 02

  I was early, bro. That's early for me. Bro, I'm from Kauai. One minute late, you know, it's not bad. The early bird gets, gets the worm. So, all good.

• 3:35:30Jocko Willink?

  On one podcast, you said you come from a long line of people that are late people.

• 3:35:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, well.

• 3:35:37Jocko Willink?

  I mean, you did twenty-three and me, your DNA came up late.

• 3:35:44Speaker 02

  Yes, it was very clear, the late marker on that one is, yeah. Anyway, what I'm not laid on is my re-entry to the Jaco Fuel Discipline, uh, freaking routine.

• 3:36:00Jocko Willink?

  You're in the game.

• 3:36:00Speaker 02

  In the, in the game.

• 3:36:02Jocko Willink?

  Bro, why are we even talking about this? Okay, so we're talking about joint warfare, krill oil, discipline, that's all cool. Joint warfare, krill oil, vitamin D, maybe some cold water, that's good, right? We talk about that all the time. We're, we got JP here.

• 3:36:18Speaker 02

  Well, we'll get to JP.

• 3:36:19Jocko Willink?

  He happens to have a-

• 3:36:20Speaker 02

  Sour apple.

• 3:36:23Jocko Willink?

  Signature.

• 3:36:24Speaker 02

  But, okay, so, but the joint warfare thing, and here's the thing, like, I, you know, we take it every day. I do, I don't know about you, I take it every day, or whatever, and like I said, I said before, where it's like always on my mind. Right? So I kind of explore, like, why is this always on my mind? And you came up with a phrase, or a line, or whatever you call it. The beatings are the darkness, the gains are the light.

• 3:36:53Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 3:36:54Speaker 02

  I thought that was pretty, you're the one who said that.

• 3:36:56Jocko Willink?

  Interesting.

• 3:36:57Speaker 02

  Anyway, so the, the point is, this is why, because when, when you're young, and JP, you're looking fit, strong, fit. You know, usually a good sign in life, when you're looking and feeling strong and fit. But, you, you know, when you're young, you're like, okay, you know, my big muscles, my big muscles. As you gain maturity, you figure out like the underlying foundations of things are usually proved to be more important.

• 3:37:22Jocko Willink?

  And the underlying foundations of gains is skeletal and tissue strength.

• 3:37:28Speaker 02

  Strength and stability, exactly right.

• 3:37:30Jocko Willink?

  I got your back.

• 3:37:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, you're completely correct, yes.

• 3:37:33Jocko Willink?

  Totally taking care of you.

• 3:37:34Speaker 02

  Yep, so yeah, when you take those beatings.

• 3:37:38Speaker 02

  And you want to get those that recovery that gains your joints are one of the many things that take beatings.

• 3:37:44Jocko Willink?

  Do you spell gains with a Z?

• 3:37:46Speaker 02

  No, sir. No.

• 3:37:47Jocko Willink?

  Are you sure?

• 3:37:47Speaker 02

  I'm positive. Yes. And me and

• 3:37:49Jocko Willink?

  JP, do you spell gains with a Z?

• 3:37:52JP Dinnell?

  No.

• 3:37:53Speaker 02

  Negative. Bruh, I was talking to Pete.

• 3:37:55Jocko Willink?

  I kind of think I'd spell gains with a Z.

• 3:37:58Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 3:37:59Jocko Willink?

  But that's maybe that be maybe that's just my own little sort of, you know, gains.

• 3:38:05Speaker 02

  Yeah. I don't know. Yeah, no, I was talking to Pete or maybe both of them, Brian. And we're talking about the word gains and it's like.

• 3:38:16Jocko Willink?

  Oh, is that word itself a violation? Or is it only if you have a Z on the end?

• 3:38:20Speaker 02

  The Z. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

• 3:38:22Jocko Willink?

  It's funny that the Z on the end of gains is a real thing, right?

• 3:38:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, just like Z in the end of a lot of other words like boys, me and my boys. And you put a Z, it's like, bro, don't, don't do that. But you can say me and my boys, like, that's not a violation if it's like, you know.

• 3:38:37JP Dinnell?

  Interesting. I just don't understand why people go out of their way to misspell words.

• 3:38:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, bruh, it's, it's, it's, it's interesting for sure. Maybe like individual expression, you know? Either way, nonetheless, yeah, okay. So the joint, we're first, take, take these things. Keep yourself in the game. That's important. Bro, what, what good is it if you're like muscles are super strong, but your joints can't hold? It's like having a nice house with no freaking foundation.

• 3:39:03Jocko Willink?

  Agreed, bro.

• 3:39:04Speaker 02

  Or framing.

• 3:39:05Jocko Willink?

  Metaphor received.

• 3:39:07Speaker 02

  Anyway, okay, so back to the, back to the sour apple sniper. Okay, JP. So why did we?

• 3:39:18Speaker 02

  Um, choose sour app, a sour apple?

• 3:39:21JP Dinnell?

  Um, it was just a flavor that I've always enjoyed as a kid. Like I, I really liked the sour apple flavors of different candy and, and stuff I would eat as a kid. The Jolly Ranchers, those, those, one of their like karma, like there's like sour green apple with a caramel. Like, yeah, I just, I've always really liked it. But honestly, it was, you know, I, I, I talked to Brian because, you know, we came out with Dakota Meyer's flavor, Dax Savage, which is legit. It's really good. And, um, you know, I, I, you know, Brian is the same way that, that you guys are about business is he's not going to like commit or say something.

• 3:40:01JP Dinnell?

  Ahead of it. He's just more of reserved on it. And I, I, I had kind of talked to him about like, what about like, you know, different like signature flavor, like, you know, kind of like one for me or other people, would you guys be open to it? And he's like, well, we kind of got to see how these flavors do. We just want to see if there's even a demand and how it goes. And obviously, uh, what, you know, the direction of what he's been doing, you know, Pete and Brian, both with Origin and Jaco Fuel and you guys, the growth is just, it's incredible to see it and be a part of it. And so I, you know, just kind of let it be with that conversation, talked to Pete about it a little bit and, um,

• 3:40:39JP Dinnell?

  you know, they had asked like, what would you think for the flavor and the name? And I gave them a name and a flavor and they're like, okay, I dig that.

• 3:40:49JP Dinnell?

  Kind of didn't go anywhere. And then it was in, you know, January, I kind of brought it up again to Brian. And I said, you know, I was like, you know, I'm thinking about, what if it was like sour apple sniper? I was trying to come up with a name that would be unique.

• 3:41:05Speaker 02

  So fully can you fully you sour apple sniper? That's what you said at that?

• 3:41:09JP Dinnell?

  Yes, yes. And, uh, cause the other name that I come up with was it worked well. And I, I still like it. It's a good flavor. It's a good name.

• 3:41:18Speaker 02

  What? Your other name?

• 3:41:20JP Dinnell?

  It was another idea.

• 3:41:21Speaker 02

  What was it?

• 3:41:23JP Dinnell?

  Well, we could talk about it offline.

• 3:41:24Speaker 02

  Well, someone might steal it. Something like that. Man, it's that good. Okay. All right.

• 3:41:29JP Dinnell?

  And so, uh, came up sour apple sniper and Brian was like, okay, I like the name, but he's like, I just, you know, sour apple. I don't know how that will do. It was like flavor in a drink. And I said, okay. Well, yeah, I was like, that makes sense. And we were kind of talking through it and it was just, and I was like, hey, I'm not trying to be the good idea fairy. Like, I don't want to just be like coming to you with all these like, hey, I have another good idea and just expect you to execute it. I'm like, I want to help. Like, let me know what I can do. And like, if there's an idea and then just, you know, kept conversations about it. And then it just became a reality where, you know, Brian like reached out to me and was like, hey, you know, think about this. And you ever start working on your flavor? I was like, oh, okay. Cool. And I think Brian, Brian got excited about it when some of the manufacturers came back to him like,

• 3:42:11JP Dinnell?

  oh, that's a great idea. And like, there was a couple of different companies that were wanting to kind of like, bid for being able to do it, I guess, or wanted to be a part of it. And then we got the first couple of rounds of flavors. And it was like, okay, this is good, but let's make this tweak and a couple of different tweaks. And then Jaco gave me the feedback. He's like, yeah, actually I really like it. It's actually good. Kids give the feedback and, and then, um, yeah, and then just kind of tweaked it from there. And then they're able to, to execute. Obviously there's some delays with, you know, the whole coronavirus thing and across the nation. But I mean, it came out, you know, Jaco Palmer came out and that was legit flavor.

• 3:42:52JP Dinnell?

  And, um, you know, it was like a really good flavor. I was like, oh man, Sour Apple Snipe was coming after that. Like I was a little nervous. But, um, yeah, I'm really super happy with the flavor. I mean, the amount of support has been incredible. Like the amount of people like sending me messages like, hey, I just ordered six cases or hey, I just ordered, you know, four pack to try out. And then they'll order the four pack to try it out. They try it and then they're that same week ordering a case. And, uh, you know, I, I think it's, it should be available on Amazon soon. Vitamin Shoppe should be getting theirs soon in the game as well. They have the other flavors. Um, but I mean, there's been like the gym I train at, you know, peak performance was where I do jujitsu.

• 3:43:34JP Dinnell?

  And then next to it, my buddy has a, a gym called 360 Fitness where Amanda and I will, will train. And he does personal training there as well. He's been working with Amanda. And then he's been doing personal training with Aiden, helping with, you know, some coordination stuff and, and stuff. And like, he just ordered, uh, a large order. Uh, he ordered 40 cases and he, he's getting the, the fridge in there. And so there's, you're seeing a lot of businesses now also that I've been connecting with, with Jaco Fuel and of like ordering the fridges. And like another, like my buddy, their, their business, they ordered 48 cases. And then, you know, later that week ordered more and there's, it's just the, the progression of growth is, is just crazy.

• 3:44:15JP Dinnell?

  Crazy to see what people are doing, the support for just all the Jaco flavors. I mean, all the flavors are great, you know, that's the thing is, you know, of course I want the sour apple snipers to continue to sell and do well. But at the end of the day.

• 3:44:30Jocko Willink?

  You gotta take care of yourself.

• 3:44:31JP Dinnell?

  They're all, they're all feeding each other. I said, I would like, but I'm saying at the end of the day, they're all feeding each other.

• 3:44:38Jocko Willink?

  You know what's crazy about this whole story?

• 3:44:39JP Dinnell?

  What?

• 3:44:41Jocko Willink?

  There's two right now, and there's more coming, but there's two signature flavors, you and Dakota.

• 3:44:49JP Dinnell?

  Yeah.

• 3:44:51Jocko Willink?

  Have you ever wondered about why that is?

• 3:44:55JP Dinnell?

  No, well, I guess.

• 3:44:58Jocko Willink?

  The, the.

• 3:44:59JP Dinnell?

  Maybe.

• 3:45:00Jocko Willink?

  The.

• 3:45:02Jocko Willink?

  Like the, the seed of this, this idea, maybe had, was it the seed? This original idea of making an energy drink is from, from you and Dakota as individuals, but more you and Dakota's, you and Dakota as people, as an, as a group of people. So let's, let's, let's face it, you used to freaking drink energy drinks that are absolutely horrible for you. And you would drink, how many a day?

• 3:45:46JP Dinnell?

  It was bad, five to seven.

• 3:45:48Jocko Willink?

  Five to seven, that's, that's, that's freaking awful. Dakota, same thing. And so as, and you know, I used to drink them when I would need like, oh, I, I need some caffeine because I'm on a long drive and it's late at night. Okay. I'm going to drink this. And then what happens? The next, you know, once I crashed from that, from the sugar, the insulin, you feel like crap. But, but as I thought about like, hey, because part of my mind is I don't want to contribute to that. Like I don't want to make something that's going to do that to people, but then immediately, but what am I going to do with my friends? You and you and Dakota, you and you and Dakota, I mean, it just, you guys are sort of the archetype of the

• 3:46:33Jocko Willink?

  energy drink drinker, right? Hey, I didn't get much sleep, but I want to get after it. Boom, boom, boom. That's, that's what it is. So I don't want to contribute to poisoning my friends and people like my friends. So I'm not going to do that. But wait a second. What if we can actually make something that is legitimately good for you? That's why when it's like, okay, we need, well, we want, I think that whole idea of a signature thing, it's like, you know what? There's two guys that should have a signature freaking energy drink that's good for them. And then that's where we're at.

• 3:47:13JP Dinnell?

  That's, that's awesome.

• 3:47:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:47:14JP Dinnell?

  And I got a message from one of my buddies, you know, obviously,

• 3:47:20JP Dinnell?

  most people that listen to podcasts probably know this because you follow Jaco, you follow Origin, you follow Jaco Fuel, Pete, Brian, all them as well as, you know, we just brought on Bryce Mitchell as a sponsor.

• 3:47:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:47:31JP Dinnell?

  Pro team member, right? You know, thug nasty.

• 3:47:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:47:34JP Dinnell?

  He's got a big fight coming up.

• 3:47:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:47:36JP Dinnell?

  He just hit top 15 for his rankings as well in the UFC. And, you know, his manager, Matt, is a great guy. And he's, I've always had a good relationship with him and Bryce. And I used to sponsor Bryce when I had never settled apparel. And I did what I could back then, you know, which wasn't much. But, you know, us being able to bring him on board, the team is, is awesome. He's a great fit, but his, his manager is like, hit me up. He's like, dude, that sour apple sniper is ridiculous. He's like, I got my, I put it on, I put it on ice. It got super cold. He's like, I'm gonna get my wife off of drinking the other energy drinks because she's a nurse and she, what does she do?

• 3:48:13Jocko Willink?

  Same thing.

• 3:48:13JP Dinnell?

  Yeah. Boom. Goes in. I said, hey,

• 3:48:17JP Dinnell?

  Let your wife know the flavor isn't going to make sense to her at the beginning. Cause she's so used to like all this other sugar and junk and everything else like that. Cause that's a lot of people say like, well, the flavor is a little different, but then they'll drink a few of them like, oh, this is really good. I like it, you know, cause you have to understand like you don't drink a lot of sugar. You never have. Most people that do, like now you're actually drinking that something that's all natural. It has no sugar. It's, it's good for you. Like that's crazy. And so he's, my purpose of saying all that is he's super thankful that he's going to now be able to get his wife off of the other energy drinks. She's going to be able to have part of this and Bryce is like all about this. Like he's sending me text messages. He's putting it. He's like, man, this is my go to, this is my new go to.

• 3:49:02JP Dinnell?

  It's really, you know, the other thing that Jocko Fuel and Origin have been doing is growing their sponsored team members. Like, you know, working with, they call it the pro team, right? Just different members that are going to reflect, are going to be a good reflection of Origin and Jocko Fuel and what that means. You know, and Brian and them have been working hard. They're releasing an ambassador program. So there are people that if they want to represent Origin and Jocko Fuel, they can actually apply to do that. And be a brand ambassador for the two best companies that are out there right now. And so it's just, it's crazy that I am a part of all this. It's just, it's just a little bit of it. It just blows me away. Amanda and I, you know, my wife Amanda and I were talking last night about it.

• 3:49:44JP Dinnell?

  And I was just, it's just crazy just to see it, you know, and I know we're going to close it out like you guys normally do. But you know, I, I have to take a moment to thank Amanda and, and Aiden and Cora and Nola. Just for their dedication to me, to just always have my back, you know, Amanda's through thick and thin. I'm not an easy person to live with. I'm not an easy person to be married with, to, to work with. I, I have a lot of, you know, demons that I've worked through and you know, she, she knows that and sees that. And she'll be like, you just need to go to the gym, right? Or hey, go sit in the sauna or go to do some jujitsu because she knows, you know,

• 3:50:25JP Dinnell?

  all the guys that I work with and do jujitsu over at Peak and Justin and Zach over at 360 Fitness. Like they, they're there to support me and they support my family. It's, it's unlike anything I've ever seen, you know, and. They their loyalty and it's incredible and so it's why I was like lacking and that's what I was missing out on again and just to have that but it's all driven from Amanda and my family and you know when the drink came out you know Amanda you know we got it and she was like oh this is awesome you know it was really cool and she like comes up and she gives me a hug and she like puts her hand on my chest and she's like just looking up

• 3:51:06JP Dinnell?

  at me she's like hey I'm really proud of you like I am really proud of everything that you've worked for it's been a road she's like it's been it's been a you know it's been a what would she say exactly it was not a rough road but it was something you know something along the journey right and I just I was just soaking it in because I mean we've had some dark times between the two of us and just to know that in the last four years we went from where we're at all the struggles everything up and down to where you know we just received like cases of sour apple sniper with my signature on it and just all the crazy thing that's coming of it and the just the the relationships with Origin and Jaco Fuel

• 3:51:51JP Dinnell?

  I mean I know you're very thankful for that partnership but to like when we really look into like who Pete is and who Amanda Roberts is and who Brian Littlefield is and everyone associated with those companies they are some of the best people that I know legitimately some of the best people I know and what they're doing here in America what you guys are doing Echo and Jaco with them in America it's it gives me a sense of pride to be like hey this is another mission that I can at least maybe help a little bit I can contribute a little bit you know and so I'm just so thankful just for all these opportunities it's it's

• 3:52:30JP Dinnell?

  unreal and you know I what I'm thankful as well is this is a platform for me to be able to give back and serve and serve more people and that's you know something we can get into on another podcast of just some of the stuff that we have on in the horizon of different foundations to be able to help out and be able to work alongside you know Mama Lee with America's Mighty Warriors she Her foundation probably legitimately saved my life because in March I got super sick. We don't know what was going on. You remember I was I was pissing blood for two weeks straight. My my body was shutting down. We don't know why. I had kidney failure, adrenal gland failure. And um, just a just a bunch of other stuff that was going on.

• 3:53:15JP Dinnell?

  I was throwing up. My head was killing me. I was getting those headaches again, blurred vision. Um, I was losing like the ability like to talk sometimes like I couldn't find my words. I couldn't focus. And um, you know, coronavirus hit and I um, Debbie Lee, Mama Lee, reached out to me. And she says, hey, I got you approved for H bot treatments, the hyperbaric oxygen treatments. You have the time, let's get you in there. And I I I was doing those treatments. And it was a realization to me of how hard Mama Lee is working to serve others. And I have this opportunity to be able to try to help and give back and you know,

• 3:54:00JP Dinnell?

  there's there's good foundations like America's Bio Warriors that are doing so much for people that that most people don't know about. And you know, I I did all those treatments. And it was incredible, the difference that it made for my body. Like a complete 180, like able to work out again. Like I blacked out in the middle of a workout. And passed out and it, I mean, it was it was bad. Like we're still not sure what would happen. And um, yeah, and then now a few months later, I'm able to work out and train hard again and actually get back into training jiu jitsu and and you know, actually working out and just like trying to get back on that path again. And it's, you know, just all the the clean supplements

• 3:54:45JP Dinnell?

  from Jocko Fuel and and Origin is just everything. It's just made a huge difference. It's crazy.

• 3:54:51Speaker 02

  Yeah. So you're doing those curls on the internet.

• 3:54:53JP Dinnell?

  Yeah, dog.

• 3:54:54Speaker 02

  Varying levels of emotional response from you.

• 3:54:57JP Dinnell?

  I didn't I didn't take a film of the last one I hit, but I will for you.

• 3:55:02Speaker 02

  Sweet.

• 3:55:02JP Dinnell?

  It was a

• 3:55:04Speaker 02

  I know you will.

• 3:55:04JP Dinnell?

  155 for three.

• 3:55:06Speaker 02

  Okay, all right, all right. Okay, so you're you're you're doing well.

• 3:55:09Jocko Willink?

  Was that preacher? Was that preacher curl?

• 3:55:10Speaker 02

  No. Straight marble curl, man. For the preacher curls. Yeah, yeah, legit, for sure. So, yes, speaking of curls, milk, right? You need that protein. That's probably why you can curl that much. You're on that milk train. Anyway, protein in the form of a dessert. Oh yeah, don't forget about that. Uh, yeah, that is to sum up the Jaco Fuel Supplementation Line. Oh wait, no, Jaco White Tea.

• 3:55:40Jocko Willink?

  Jaco White Tea, the warrior can milk. All good. You can get it at Vitamin Shoppe. You can get it at OriginMaine.com. You can also get Jiu-Jitsu stuff there. You can get gis. You can get a rash guard. You can get, so that's good. You're covered kinda for Jiu-Jitsu. But you're not really covered for the street if you only have a gi.

• 3:56:02Speaker 02

  That's true.

• 3:56:03Jocko Willink?

  So that's why you have to have Origin Jeans, which you can wear on the street. You can kinda wear them on the mats of justice as well if they're Delta Jeans, because they're flexible. Okay, so you get jeans, you can get boots, you can get t-shirts, you can get rash guards, gis, hats, hoodies, shorts, all that stuff, made in America. And by the way, JP, when you're like, oh, it's, it feels good to be a part of that. That's what everybody feels. Like when you, when you're, when you're, when you put on an Origin

• 3:56:36Jocko Willink?

  t-shirt, when you put on an Origin hoodie, when you put on an Origin pair of jeans, you're part of what we are doing, bringing manufacturing back to America, and that's awesome.

• 3:56:49Speaker 02

  Yes, sir. OriginMaine.com. Also, Jaco. Jaco has a store. It's called Jaco Store. So this is, if you want to represent, while we are on the path that we are on, factually, we too have rash guards. A little bit more indicative of the path directly. See what I'm saying?

• 3:57:09Jocko Willink?

  Also made.

• 3:57:11Speaker 02

  Oh yeah, the okay.

• 3:57:12Jocko Willink?

  By Origin.

• 3:57:12Speaker 02

  Yes, so we do have Origin rash cards manufactured in America, made in America.

• 3:57:18Jocko Willink?

  Designed by not Pete Roberts.

• 3:57:22Speaker 02

  But in America.

• 3:57:23Jocko Willink?

  But in America, but, but yes, designed in America, maybe by Echo Charles.

• 3:57:26Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 3:57:26Jocko Willink?

  In terms of visual impact.

• 3:57:29Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 3:57:30Jocko Willink?

  So there's two different types of people in the world, right? Some people look at the Pete Roberts stuff and they go, hey, I like that. Some people might think they want something a little bit more on the Jaco store side.

• 3:57:40Speaker 02

  Yes, like where the, the.

• 3:57:44Jocko Willink?

  Indicative of the path.

• 3:57:45Speaker 02

  Yes, sir. That's where you, yes, so yes, Jaco store also T-shirts on there, discipline equals freedom, good. You know, you gotta represent these things, get after it. Some hats on there, some hoodies on there, some shorts on there, shorts are in. Shorts are straight up in, board shorts.

• 3:58:02Jocko Willink?

  I like it.

• 3:58:03Speaker 02

  Boom.

• 3:58:03Jocko Willink?

  That's cool. I don't have mine yet.

• 3:58:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's true.

• 3:58:06Jocko Willink?

  Which is kind of jacked up.

• 3:58:07Speaker 02

  Some of us are sort of in the game, some of us are, you know, you're, you're, you're the, what do you call it? You're the second guy. What do you call it, when like the first people, the primary people get their stuff, you know?

• 3:58:17Jocko Willink?

  You're a, you're a first, what is it, a first responder? No, it's not a first responder.

• 3:58:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's like that.

• 3:58:20Jocko Willink?

  It's early adapter.

• 3:58:21Speaker 02

  Boom.

• 3:58:22Jocko Willink?

  That's you.

• 3:58:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:58:23Jocko Willink?

  I'm over here in the rear without the gear.

• 3:58:26Speaker 02

  You're early, early follower or something like this. Either way, you'll get yours, we'll all get ours. These are all good things. Jaco store.com, if you like something on there, get something.

• 3:58:36Jocko Willink?

  Don't forget to subscribe, subscribe to this podcast. Don't forget also that we have some other podcasts. We've got Jaco Unraveling with Daryl Cooper. We've got Grounded. We've got Warrior Kid Podcast. We've got a YouTube channel where Echo allegedly puts effort into making videos.

• 3:58:57Speaker 02

  The top ropes over here, my God.

• 3:59:01Jocko Willink?

  And in no time, anytime that the video is long, you can expect to see no.

• 3:59:07Speaker 02

  No effects.

• 3:59:08Jocko Willink?

  No effects. But if the video is short, you can see an overload of effects. You can be the judge, you can leave comments. If you think Echo put an appropriate amount of explosions in a video, you can say appropriate.

• 3:59:21Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 3:59:22Jocko Willink?

  If you think he did not, you can put lacking. Those are your two choices. Just to put in the comments, either appropriate or lacking. I think if you look at a long video, you're probably going to put lacking since there's zero.

• 3:59:32Speaker 02

  No, but that's appropriate. See, I'm saying zero is appropriate.

• 3:59:36Jocko Willink?

  A lot of people don't feel that way. A lot of people wouldn't mind a little visual stimulation.

• 3:59:42Jocko Willink?

  But whatever.

• 3:59:42Speaker 02

  Noted.

• 3:59:43Jocko Willink?

  You're over there on your own program. Also got an album called Psychological Warfare, which is a, an album where I talk about some things. If you're maybe heading down the wrong path, maybe you're about to make a bad decision. Don't do it. Press play on your MP3 player, on your phone. Device of whatever kind that's putting music, putting things, putting sounds into your ears. Go ahead. Hit Psychological Warfare. Overcome that weakness. No factor. Push through it. Look, guaranteed.

• 4:00:12Speaker 02

  Guaranteed.

• 4:00:12Jocko Willink?

  That you'll, after the fact, be appreciative of Psychological Warfare. You're going into Psychological Warfare, you want to win.

• 4:00:20Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 4:00:20Jocko Willink?

  You want to win that battle.

• 4:00:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:00:22Jocko Willink?

  When you win that battle, guaranteed, you're going to feel better. You're not going to look back and say, damn, I really wish I would have had that. Don't it? There's zero chance of that happening. There's zero chance that you look back and say, I wish I wouldn't have listened to Psychological Warfare and skipped the workout. No, you get done with the workout, you're like, yes.

• 4:00:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:00:38Jocko Willink?

  I won the battle.

• 4:00:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's literally no circumstance where you're like, dang, I'm so happy I slacked off. Like, you know, so happy.

• 4:00:47Jocko Willink?

  So stoked I slacked off.

• 4:00:48Speaker 02

  Good thing I slacked off, you know? Under no circumstances. You're right. Hundred percent.

• 4:00:53Jocko Willink?

  You might want a visual representation of these things. You can get that from flipsidecanvas.com. Dakota Meyer, that's his company. He's keeping it real. Also got some books. The Code, The Evaluation, The Protocol, Leadership Strategy and Tactics Field Manual. All the answers are in that book, by the way. All these, all the questions that I get asked, their answers are always in there. Oh, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Page forty-seven. What about this? Page ninety-eight. What about that? What about, what do I do when my boss does this? Page one hundred and fourteen.

• 4:01:27Jocko Willink?

  Way the Warrior Kid, one, two, and three. Mikey and the Dragons. Teach a, teach a little kid to overcome fear. Can you imagine superpower you have? When you're a little kid and you realize you don't need to be afraid? Give him that power. Give him Mikey and the Dragons. Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual. How to get after and then of course, extreme ownership and the dichotomy of leadership, the foundational principles written by myself and my brother Leif Babin.

• 4:01:56Jocko Willink?

  We also have an leadership consultancy. We talked about it today. If you want help with your leadership, go to echelonfront.com and that's how you can get us in the game with you. EF online, that is the online training. JP talked about it today. I talked about it, I think, a little bit today, but we've been referring to back to it a lot because we're getting a lot of good questions, problem solving, leadership situations being handled. It's us live. If you want to ask JP a question, you, if you actually want to ask JP Danelle a question, do you have to travel to Texas to do that? Nope. You can go to EF online

• 4:02:39Jocko Willink?

  on a Wednesday and JP will there and you can go, hey, I got a question for JP. If you want to ask me a question, do you have to come to California to do that? No, you don't. You can go to EF online. You can ask me a question. What if it's a complicated question? Cool, bring it. What if it's a question that's too long for Twitter? Great. You're not on Twitter. You're sitting in a Zoom meeting. You've got some good answers on there. Yeah, I must add. That's what we do. So, go to efonline.com. If you want to engage with us there, we also have the muster. Two of them this year have been canceled. Orlando and Phoenix. The next one is in Dallas, December

• 4:03:20Jocko Willink?

  3rd and 4th. A lot of people that were going to either Orlando or Phoenix are now coming to Dallas. We're probably going to have to do some kind of social distancing. That means less seats available. So if you want to come, go to extremeownership.com and enroll. We have EF Overwatch.

• 4:03:40Jocko Willink?

  Executive leadership, what you need inside your organization? Why not get someone that has the principles that we talked about today in their mind and can apply them? Someone from the military, someone with experience in leadership positions that can come into your organization and help move you in the right direction? Go to EFOverwatch.com. I always talk about AmericasMightyWarriors.org. It's what JP just talked about. I always say that Mama Lee's mission has become to help service members. There's a service member, JP. How does she help? By providing medical treatment to heal up military members that have made sacrifices.

• 4:04:23Jocko Willink?

  So if you want to get involved or you want to donate, go to AmericasMightyWarriors.org. Help veterans. And if you have too much time on your hands and you, you want to hear just a few more of my monotonous monologues, or if you want to hear more, a little, just a little bit more of Echo Charles's riotous ramblings. You can find us on the interwebs, on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook. Echo is at EchoCharles.

• 4:04:58Jocko Willink?

  I am at Jocko Willink and JP is at JP Dinnell, D-I-N-N-E-L-L, two N's, two L's, on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook. Echo Charles, any closing thoughts?

• 4:05:12Speaker 02

  Nope, I have no closing thoughts. Good to see JP again.

• 4:05:16Jocko Willink?

  You as well. JP, anything else?

• 4:05:27Speaker 02

  Thank you to you in life for the opportunity that you've given my family.

• 4:05:36JP Dinnell?

  Like Dave Burke and I have talked many times, his family knows where all this comes from. My kids are well aware of everything that Uncle Leif and Uncle Jaco has given them. And, um, you know, again, thank you to Amanda for her support. It is the ultimate cover move. I could not do what I do with you guys if it wasn't for her support. So she is, she's my queen. She is everything. I don't treat her as good as I should. And I need to do a better job at that and understand that I could not have the opportunity that I have with you guys if it was not for her. And the kids supporting everything that I do.

• 4:06:17JP Dinnell?

  And, um, I don't, I don't want you and Leif or any, anybody on the team to ever think that I take this for granted. That I feel like I deserve more than I should get. I am thankful to be here. I'm thankful for my seat at the table. And I will always be with you guys until the end.

• 4:06:37Jocko Willink?

  Well, uh, first of all, as far as Amanda goes, I'm thinking maybe. Amanda Mango is on the horizon. Get her a little signature drink. And I'm not going to open up a debate with you right now in terms of, uh, thanking me. And I've probably told you this at least probably. Five times, no more than that in certain situations that you don't ever have to thank me for anything. I thank you for what you did for me, for what you did for tasking a bruiser, for what you did for the teams, for what you did to the country. And for our country. So you never have to thank me. I thank you.

• 4:07:18Jocko Willink?

  And all the other military personnel out there on those forgotten barricades.

• 4:07:26Jocko Willink?

  Who protect our way of life in the world. Thanks to all of you and to the police. And law enforcement and firefighters and paramedics and EMTs and dispatchers. And correctional officers and border patrol and secret service and all the other first responders.

• 4:07:45Jocko Willink?

  Thanks to all of you for standing up to serve even when you're under attack from all sides.

• 4:07:54Jocko Willink?

  And to everyone else out there.

• 4:07:59Jocko Willink?

  No one said that the path is gonna be easy.

• 4:08:03Jocko Willink?

  And it's not.

• 4:08:07Jocko Willink?

  That's the way life is.

• 4:08:11Jocko Willink?

  And you're gonna go through some low spots and you might be running low on ammo.

• 4:08:19Jocko Willink?

  And you, you might even feel like

• 4:08:24Jocko Willink?

  there's no hope.

• 4:08:28Jocko Willink?

  But you know what?

• 4:08:31Jocko Willink?

  Doesn't matter.

• 4:08:34Jocko Willink?

  Keep fighting.

• 4:08:37Jocko Willink?

  Keep, keep fighting, keep striving, keep going and don't give up because the only real failure is actually giving up and if you don't give up,

• 4:08:53Jocko Willink?

  you will not fail them.

• 4:09:02Jocko Willink?

  And until next time. This is JP and Echo and Jaco.

• 4:09:08Jocko Willink?

  Out.