225: Overcome Insecurity. What To Do When Nobody is Respecting You. How to Be Aggressive When You are Not.

0:00:00 - Opening 0 09:13 - When my Boss doesn't take his share of ownership. 0:17:44 - At What level up the chain does Extreme Ownership stop? 0:35:52 - How to be aggressive when it's not part of her natural personality. 0:52:45 - How to deal with a negative complainer / Debbie Downer. 1:11:02 - How to mentally prepare for war / adversity. 1:14:38 - What to do when nobody is listening to you or respecting you. 1:51:43 - Do you explain the "why" to your team if they don't ask? 1:57:14 - How to deal with insecurities. 2:05:30 - How to stay on THE PATH. 2:27:18 - Closing Gratitude. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 225 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening Echo. Good evening.

• 0:10Jocko Willink?

  Last month, I went to a memorial service.

• 0:18Jocko Willink?

  And it was the first memorial service that I had been to for a long time that wasn't

• 0:27Jocko Willink?

  for a seal.

• 0:31Jocko Willink?

  It was the first memorial service I had been to for a long time that was for someone who died of

• 0:39Jocko Willink?

  natural causes.

• 0:44Jocko Willink?

  A memorial service for someone that had actually lived their full life expectancy, 80, 80 years, or maybe 82 years or 83. I don't, I don't remember the exact number.

• 1:01Jocko Willink?

  Which is kind of interesting in its own right, because when someone that's younger dies,

• 1:09Jocko Willink?

  then everyone talks about their age. You know, everyone says he was only 26, or he was just 28, he was only 32.

• 1:22Jocko Willink?

  And I've been to

• 1:25Jocko Willink?

  far too many funerals and memorial services like that.

• 1:34Jocko Willink?

  Far too many funerals where the mourning that is taking place

• 1:42Jocko Willink?

  is about

• 1:44Jocko Willink?

  what is never going to get done.

• 1:51Jocko Willink?

  Potential that wasn't breached.

• 1:57Jocko Willink?

  A life that was cut short, but this, this memorial was for the

• 2:04Jocko Willink?

  patriarch of a group of families who are friends with my family.

• 2:10Jocko Willink?

  And this man, this old man had three sons who are friends of mine. And those sons all have kids and all our kids grew up together and we have done a lot over the years surfing and

• 2:26Jocko Willink?

  camping and climbing and playing music.

• 2:32Jocko Willink?

  Playing music around the campfire or in the uh in the little studio.

• 2:41Jocko Willink?

  And I've actually known these guys for

• 2:45Jocko Willink?

  for over 20 years and because I knew them, I knew their old man too.

• 2:51Jocko Willink?

  And the old man was

• 2:55Jocko Willink?

  you know, he was a stud in his own right.

• 3:01Jocko Willink?

  He was going strong. He was an athlete. He was an entrepreneur.

• 3:06Jocko Willink?

  He liked sports and beer and rock and roll and late nights.

• 3:14Jocko Willink?

  And again, this guy was an older guy, you know, 75, 78, 80 years old in his later years and and he poured everything he could into his family.

• 3:26Jocko Willink?

  Into his kids and into their kids.

• 3:34Jocko Willink?

  And he was a good man.

• 3:38Jocko Willink?

  And he lived a good life and the memorial service was, you know, a a a small kind of private affair. You know, there was probably

• 3:52Jocko Willink?

  I don't know. 70 or 80 people there.

• 3:57Jocko Willink?

  You know, all the extended family of all the kids and and friends of the family and some of his friends and it was it was a nice service and I

• 4:08Jocko Willink?

  I said a few words.

• 4:14Jocko Willink?

  And I kind of, you know, told a funny story. I, you know, his, his son had spoke, his sons had spoke and his wife had spoke and it was, is emotional and I,

• 4:26Jocko Willink?

  you know, I, I took the opportunity to lighten the mood a little.

• 4:34Jocko Willink?

  And what I talked about is I talked about how he, he would listen

• 4:41Jocko Willink?

  when his sons and me would play music back in the day. And we would play for hours and he would listen for hours. And, and listen, when I talk about us playing music, I'm talking about us just, just jamming and riffing and we're talking about songs that are 15 or 20 or 30 minutes long, just, just songs that are just meandering through riffs and bridges and verses and going from just droning heavy thunder to like quiet

• 5:20Jocko Willink?

  acoustic jams and all these different songs to be played just one time and one time only.

• 5:30Jocko Willink?

  Just impro- impro- improv.

• 5:35Jocko Willink?

  And they're hard to follow and they're hard to understand and

• 5:41Jocko Willink?

  you know, and he would stay down there and he would just listen and he would rock out with us, this,

• 5:48Jocko Willink?

  this old man.

• 5:51Jocko Willink?

  And he, like you could see it in his face, he loved it.

• 6:00Jocko Willink?

  He loved listening to us.

• 6:04Jocko Willink?

  And, you know, look, his sons are all awesome musicians and I'm the, I'm the kind of not so awesome musician.

• 6:14Jocko Willink?

  But even the best musicians, you know, when you're just kind of making stuff up as you go along, it's not gonna be,

• 6:21Jocko Willink?

  it's not something that's super easy to listen to. And he would listen to us with no expectations, no criticism. He would enjoy it for what it was.

• 6:35Jocko Willink?

  Which was imperfect, which was off time, which was maybe a little out of tune.

• 6:45Jocko Willink?

  And he would listen to it with a big smile on his face.

• 6:51Jocko Willink?

  And later it got me thinking

• 6:55Jocko Willink?

  about how often

• 6:59Jocko Willink?

  how often do we look at things that are going on around us? And how often do we think, "If only that was a little bit different." "If only that was a little bit more in tune, if only that timing was a little bit tighter." "If only" "If only this had happened a little bit sooner, or that had happened a little bit later."

• 7:19Jocko Willink?

  We're constantly picking apart what we see.

• 7:28Jocko Willink?

  And that's a little lesson.

• 7:33Jocko Willink?

  A little lesson I learned from the old man.

• 7:40Jocko Willink?

  Because in the end, even after eight years, or ninety years, or a hundred years,

• 7:47Jocko Willink?

  one thing we're gonna still want is a little more time.

• 7:57Jocko Willink?

  Even forever is too short.

• 8:03Jocko Willink?

  So, don't waste too much time wishing and hoping and wanting for things to be different.

• 8:16Jocko Willink?

  Instead, sometimes you just gotta sit back and you gotta smile.

• 8:24Jocko Willink?

  And you gotta enjoy the jam.

• 8:29Jocko Willink?

  And listen to the music for what it is.

• 8:37Jocko Willink?

  Imperfect.

• 8:40Jocko Willink?

  Out of tune.

• 8:43Jocko Willink?

  Off time.

• 8:46Jocko Willink?

  But real.

• 8:57Jocko Willink?

  And with that,

• 9:00Jocko Willink?

  it has been a while since we've done a Q and A, Echo Charles.

• 9:07Jocko Willink?

  So,

• 9:11Jocko Willink?

  let's rock and roll. Let's jam.

• 9:13Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 9:15Jocko Willink?

  What do we got? Q and A?

• 9:17Speaker 01

  Various questions from the interwebs. Alright, first question.

• 9:24Speaker 01

  Jocko, I failed to understand a task that was given to me. I take ownership that I didn't ask the right questions. But extreme ownership applies to my boss too, as she didn't make sure that I understood it correctly. Or is that a poor excuse?

• 9:45Jocko Willink?

  Oh, so,

• 9:48Jocko Willink?

  optimally, in the world of extreme ownership, everybody takes ownership and there are, and I talked about this with, when Dave Burke was on.

• 9:56Speaker 01

  Good deal, Dave.

• 9:57Jocko Willink?

  Yes. Is that the, it's interlocking fields of fire. So, the various people that are trying to find solutions, they overlap. And, and problems get solved from two different directions. So, the problems get flanked when this is happening. But we can't guarantee always that everybody takes ownership.

• 10:20Jocko Willink?

  And we can't guarantee that, but that doesn't mean that we point our fingers at someone and say, "You need to take ownership." Because as, as we know, when you do that, people get defensive. And then they start blaming you. So, we avoid that. What we do is, we take ownership. So, what happens here in this situation?

• 10:36Jocko Willink?

  Here's the possible outcomes, right? If, if you go to your boss and you say to her, you know, "You didn't make sure I understood." Right? You go cast that blame.

• 10:49Jocko Willink?

  There's a, there's a decent chance that she says, "Well, you actually didn't, you actually need to pay attention. That's not on me. And if you don't understand, you need to ask questions." So, nothing, she hasn't changed anything.

• 11:00Jocko Willink?

  She hasn't changed anything. And you, by the way, you've created a little bit of an antagonistic relationship here. Because you're pointing the finger.

• 11:08Jocko Willink?

  So, that doesn't really help.

• 11:11Jocko Willink?

  Now here's another possible outcome. You know, you go and you say, hey, look, I failed to make sure that I understood this task. Do you mind next time if I give you a quick read back of what I think the task is to make sure that I understand it? So I'm taking full ownership, like this is on me, I need to do this. And now what you're more likely to get in this situation is, you know, the boss to say, you know what, of course, absolutely, you know what? Next time, let me make sure I give you a more detailed explanation so that you have a better understanding. That's on me. And all of a sudden, we've got this problem getting solved from two directions.

• 11:54Jocko Willink?

  Now, there's also a chance that when you say, hey, when you, when you say something, you know, hey, let me, let me, um, make sure, let me do a read back with you, you might say all that and she goes, yeah, cool. You, you should do that, whatever. Pay more attention. In which case, right? So she's not taking any ownership. She's like, yeah, you should have. Which is the big fear of people always having their head that when, when I say something's my fault, people go, yeah, it is. And now they go, wait a second, extreme ownership's not supposed to work like that. Yes, it is. Because when you take ownership of the problem and I go, you know what? I should have asked you questions. She goes, yeah, you should have. And you go, yep, exactly. That's what I just said. And now you ask questions and now you make sure you fully understand the task and now the problem's solved.

• 12:37Jocko Willink?

  So, yeah, I, I think when you asked that question, you had the suspicion. What, what did he say? Is that a poor excuse? So you had the suspicion that was that you were maybe perhaps unfortunately making a little bit of an excuse. But you're correct. It is a poor excuse. Take ownership. Hey, in an ideal world, the person above you in the chain of command takes ownership as well, but you can't, you can't force them to take ownership. So solve the problem. Take ownership and get it solved.

• 13:10Speaker 01

  Kind of, I mean, kind of when you think of it, do you, and this is actually maybe a follow up question. Maybe, when you think about it, when you have the expectation, reasonable or not, the expectation that other people have to take ownership too. Isn't that essentially negating your whole extreme ownership?

• 13:31Jocko Willink?

  Yes, whether it negates it or not, I don't know. Your hope is, look, the hope is when I start taking ownership, other people start taking ownership as well. But I can't necessarily control that. I can't force them to take ownership.

• 13:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:45Jocko Willink?

  You know, I can, I can say, hey, that's your part of the project. You should have done it. They go, okay, well, whatever. I don't think so. Right? That's me forcing ownership on you doesn't really work. What I should do is take ownership. What I hope is when I take ownership of your part of the project, you go, hey, Jaco, you know what? That's actually, that's actually my department. Let me, let me take that. That's something I should be running. I go, okay, cool. Great. So you just took ownership.

• 14:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:09Jocko Willink?

  But if you don't take ownership, Roger that, I got it and I'm running with it.

• 14:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. And the genuineness, where this is, this was a question like that, kind of you guys would get asked a lot. Like, you know, when, you know, it would a lot of times be about the other person taking ownership in the scenario, right? Which is crazy. But yeah, you, you kind of have that hope. You, actually you do have that hope.

• 14:34Jocko Willink?

  Yes, you do.

• 14:35Speaker 01

  But the actual like expectation that, you know, where like an expectation is there that can be let down.

• 14:43Jocko Willink?

  I can't be mad at you.

• 14:44Speaker 01

  Right.

• 14:45Jocko Willink?

  When you don't take ownership. Look, I guess I can be mad at you, but it doesn't help.

• 14:48Speaker 01

  Right?

• 14:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah. You know, if, if you were supposed to write a script for a, for a freaking advertisement that we were gonna do for whatever, I'm trying to think of something cool. If, if we're gonna do an advertisement and you were supposed to write a script and then we show up and you didn't do it. And I'm like, you know what? Hey, let me, we'll, we'll come back tomorrow. I'll go home and write a script.

• 15:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:12Jocko Willink?

  And you're like, you, what I would like you to say is no, hey, you know what, Jaco, it's actually, I'm supposed to write the script for this, whatever, I'll do it. And I go, okay, cool. But if you don't do that, you go, okay, cool, go write the script. I have to say, okay, cool, got it.

• 15:24Speaker 01

  Finally do some work.

• 15:25Jocko Willink?

  Now, what do I learn? I learned that you're really not in the game. And now I'm probably gonna start looking for someone else to write scripts.

• 15:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:32Jocko Willink?

  Which isn't you, which is actually giving me some good ideas.

• 15:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, that genuineness though, right with yourself.

• 15:40Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 15:41Speaker 01

  That's like if I'm just doing it, if I'm just doing it because I'm if I'm just doing it to get Echo to do it. And I really don't want to take ownership of it. Well, it's not what we're talking about. It's going to jam you up big time.

• 15:52Jocko Willink?

  It's going to jam me up big time.

• 15:53Speaker 01

  In fact, it's kind of.

• 15:54Jocko Willink?

  Just mad.

• 15:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's what I was saying is it's kind of a step backwards, really, like as far as problem solving within the team kind of thing. But you're, yeah, you're going to be mad and resentful. It's like, man, uh, no one's like, no one's doing their work. No one's taking responsibility. No one's and you're essentially in the same boat, but just one, one step behind. You're kind of like, the problem is the opposite.

• 16:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And I mean, you can take this out to the nth degree as well, where I start taking ownership of so many tasks that I can't handle them all. Right? That you can do that, right? And then, then you go, well, you know what? We're not doing this over here. It's why aren't we getting that done? Because I don't have the capacity because here's what I'm doing. I'm doing these other 19 things. So that 20th thing, it's not happening. Now, if you want to take ownership of it and make it happen, cool. You got my support, but if not, it's not happening.

• 16:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:40Jocko Willink?

  And that's okay.

• 16:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's almost like when you kind of visualize it mentally, it's like, there's like levels and the extreme ownership is always on the top. So certain developments can happen. You can take extreme ownership and then like make certain moves and it'll jam it up even more just because of the moves you made. Not because you took extreme ownership or took responsibility. It's because some moves that you made in solving problems, which is all natural. But at the end of the day, it is on you. Like you have to take responsibility.

• 17:08Jocko Willink?

  You have to truly say, I'm going to take ownership.

• 17:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. And believe it. So that again, that genuineness to be like, this is my responsibility, genuinely.

• 17:17Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 17:18Speaker 01

  It's, it's easy to be like.

• 17:20Jocko Willink?

  The, the good example is when someone says, well, you know, one of my subordinates made a mistake. And of course, of course I get it. I take ownership. I get it. But really it was their fault, you know? That's where it doesn't work.

• 17:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:33Jocko Willink?

  And actually, you know what? The next question is similar. We should jump into the next question.

• 17:37Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 17:39Jocko Willink?

  It's going to lead us down the same path of similar conversations.

• 17:44Speaker 01

  Okay, next question, very similar. Here it is. My confusion is, everyone takes ownership. At what level does that end? Theoretically, the president is the commander in chief, so it could take extreme ownership.

• 17:59Speaker 01

  Who decides who gets fired? How does that decision get made? Is that an example of extreme ownership?

• 18:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, so again, this is where we start

• 18:12Jocko Willink?

  looking at what this looks like. When does it stop? When something goes wrong, right? When does it stop? So, I was trying to apply this to my life, so with a blue on blue, right? That I had. So, fratricide, Ramadi, friendly fire incident.

• 18:28Jocko Willink?

  And I took ownership of it. Now, you gotta remember also, people below me in the chain of command said, "No, it was my fault. No, it was my fault." I said, "No, it wasn't your fault. It was my fault." Now, you could say, you could look at my boss and go, "Well, why wouldn't it be your boss's fault?" Why wouldn't it be his boss's fault? Why wouldn't it be their boss? Why wouldn't you take that all the way up the chain of command to the President of the United States, who's the senior person in the military chain of command, is the president? And why wouldn't he say, "Hey, Jaco's unit had a blue on blue, and it's my fault," right? Theoretically, like, that's what extreme ownership is.

• 19:04Jocko Willink?

  Here's the deal.

• 19:07Jocko Willink?

  The goal of extreme ownership

• 19:12Jocko Willink?

  isn't just to take ownership. The goal of extreme ownership is to actually solve the problem. That's what the goal is. The goal isn't to look who to blame. The goal is to get the problem solved. That's what the goal is. It's not about just blaming someone or finding someone to blame.

• 19:37Jocko Willink?

  And when you take ownership of it, that is the first step that leads us to solving the problem, but it's not the solution itself. So when you say, "Oh, it was my fault, the problem doesn't go away." Also, firing people, firing someone is not necessarily solve the problem. Now, unless that person, a person in the chain of command has proven to be incompetent, or immoral, or incapable of doing their job, or blatantly negligent, if it's one of those, then cool, that might solve the problem. But, most likely, the people just need to be led properly. So, so here's what happened. My boss listened to me give a debrief,

• 20:22Jocko Willink?

  and in the debrief, yes, I took ownership, but I didn't just take ownership and say, "Oh, cool, now it's gone," because it didn't make the problem disappear. I said, "Hey, here's the, here's the new standard operating procedures that we are going to implement to make sure this never happens again." Okay, so now he sees that I am solving the problem. He sees, he sees that I recognize what the problem is, he sees how I'm gonna get the problem solved. The problem is, it isn't getting past me. How can he take ownership? It doesn't make it past me. I'm owning it. Now, a good boss is gonna say, "Hey, you know what, Jocko? I get it, and there's definitely some, I see what you're saying. However, I could have done a better job prepping you guys with training," or whatever, right? You know, and I'm not saying that was the case,

• 21:06Jocko Willink?

  but you could, you can, everyone can still kind of provide overlapping fields of fire to get a problem solved. Now, like I said,

• 21:17Jocko Willink?

  I had taken ownership of the problem and offered the solutions. If I had denied any wrongdoing and blamed other people and not come up with actual solutions, then he probably would have looked at me and been like, "Ah, you're fired." Right? Because you've got someone now that's incompetent of seeing what the mistakes were, incompetent of figuring out what the solutions are. He needs to fire me. He needs to fire me. And the person above him in the chain of command will go, hey, what happened with that fratricide? He go, oh yeah, the commander out there made the following mistakes and he's obviously incompetent and I fired him. Okay, Roger that. That's now we have a, we put a new person in there and we start moving in that direction. But I solved the problem that he saw, that we all saw, right? Here's the solutions. We're going to use these marking

• 22:01Jocko Willink?

  procedures, going to use these time distance that we're going to make sure that this does not happen again. Now, if we go back to the base example, it's one of the examples I use in leadership strategy and tactics of a machine gunner shoots out of his field of fire. Okay, machine gunner shoots out of his field of fire. Maybe the machine gunner says, well, you know, no one's, no one told me what the fields of fire were. So it wasn't my fault. And then maybe the fire team leader said, I told him, but he didn't listen. So you got two excuses, right? And then the squad leader says, well, you know, the fire team, the fire team leader didn't effectively pass the word. So it's not my fault as a squad leader, the fire team leader has not passed the word correctly. And then the platoon commander says, well, the squad leader didn't understand the importance of field of fire. So it's actually his fault. So now we have everyone, no one solved, you notice no one has solved the problem yet.

• 22:44Jocko Willink?

  And then the task unit commander says, you know, the platoon leader doesn't have good control of his men. So still no one solved the problem. No one has actually implemented a solution. And then the SEAL team commander, the next person in the chain of command says the, the task unit didn't, you know, train themselves properly. So, so still he's just pointing a finger. It doesn't, it doesn't solve the problem. And then the group commander says the SEAL team commanding officer is out of touch with what his troops are doing. And then the group commander or the admiral says, you know, the group commander is not paying attention to training. So still no one has solved the problem. All it's doing is blaming. We're just pointing fingers. And then the, the, the SOCOM commander looks at the admiral and says that admiral's not obviously driving realistic training, you know, and so he's just blaming. And then the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff says,

• 23:28Jocko Willink?

  you know, obviously SOCOM has no standards, but they still won't do anything. And then the president says the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff doesn't understand what's happening in the field. And then the voters say the president doesn't know how to run the military. And then the president gets voted out. So the president eventually gets fired because of this thing. But that's not, that's not what happened. So yeah, yeah. If you just pass the blame, pass the blame, pass the blame and no one takes ownership, that, that, that problem continues throughout the whole chain of command. But when people start taking ownership.

• 24:00Jocko Willink?

  Then the problem gets solved and it doesn't get anywhere. There becomes a limitation where the problem is no longer a problem. So if the, if the machine gunner shoots out of his field of fire and says, you know what? Hey, my fault. Next time I will confirm that I know my field of fire before pulling the trigger. So that's, that's kind of a solved problem. Now it gets overlapped a little bit because the fire team leader says, listen, I will make sure and I'll be perfectly clear and reinforce and get a read back. Next time I, I tell them what his field of fire is. I'll, I'll do a better job passing the word. So now you got like a double overlap on the problem being solved. And then the platoon leader says, listen, I didn't, I should have covered fields of fire more in the rehearsals. So now we got triple. So this is not gonna be a problem anymore.

• 24:44Jocko Willink?

  No one to fire, you know, no one to reprimand. The problem is getting solved and you could go right up through the chain of command. You know that the platoon leader says, I'm going to cover it in rehearsals. And the task unit commander says, I'm going to actually go through a briefing on why fields of fire are so important.

• 25:01Jocko Willink?

  And, and you look at all these stacks of people taking ownership, the problem doesn't get out. The problem gets solved. So that's why a problem doesn't make its way through the entire chain of command when people start taking ownership. It gets owned and it gets solved.

• 25:21Jocko Willink?

  Now, i- if I got a bunch of people that are blaming each other, then maybe someone has to get fired. And one of the platoons that I was putting through training had a bad assistant platoon commander.

• 25:37Jocko Willink?

  And he caused the platoon to fail multiple training scenarios. And the, so every time that little assistant platoon commander will get put in charge of an element, he would make bad decisions and screw things up. And now, now whose fault is that?

• 25:56Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so the assistant platoon commander, he's causing the problem, but his boss, I'm barely even talking to the assistant platoon commander. Sure, I'm telling him, hey, tactically, you did this wrong, tactically you did that wrong, but I'm talking to the platoon commander going, hey, is this guy capable? Because he keeps making your whole platoon fail. Now, eventually, the platoon commander has to own that. And the platoon commander, who has tried to coach, tried to mentor, tried to, you know, give the guy tactical instruction, and he's still not capable, then guess what? The platoon commander takes ownership and says, you know what? You're fired. So he took ownership of that problem. Now, does the task unit commander need to fire the platoon commander because... Not really, because there's no more problem. The problem's gone. And he goes, okay, you know, I get it, you had to fire that guy.

• 26:41Jocko Willink?

  So when you take ownership of a problem, you know, maybe it gets another layer up, maybe two layers up. But it doesn't just, a problem doesn't just continue forever. Now, you can have serious problems where

• 27:00Jocko Willink?

  where it just continues. I mean, look at Watergate, right? You know, there was a break in, people, the trust was lost, and all of a sudden, that problem went all the way up through the chain of command. And the president resigns. So if it's bad enough and no one takes ownership, you know, if one of those guys, and I'd have to go into the details of Watergate, but, you know, sometimes you see this where someone in the chain of command goes, this was all on me. And then usually people go, wait a second, are you sure? Are you sure your boss didn't know about this? Are you sure that his boss didn't know about it? And that's kind of what, from what I remember about Watergate, it was, you know, first you got guys going up, it was just us, we were acting alone. And then all of a sudden, they figure out, no, actually, the president knew exactly what was happening. And therefore, he's, you know, gonna get, gonna get, uh,

• 27:45Jocko Willink?

  gonna get punished for it.

• 27:49Jocko Willink?

  So again, I think the important thing here is taking ownership is not about figuring out who you should blame or who you should fire. Now, it's, you know, even in extreme ownership, I'm talking through that problem in my own head, on the blue on blue, I'm saying like, I'm trying to figure out who to blame, you know, and, and I realize that there's one person to blame, it's me. Once I do that, then it's not about like, okay, now I'm gonna blame myself and now we're good. No, it's how do I solve the problem so we can win? That's what ownership is. And that's why, you know, going back to this original question, when does it stop? It stops when the problems get solved.

• 28:31Jocko Willink?

  That's it.

• 28:35Speaker 01

  Again, just one of those critical elements, which actually is more important when you think about it, the solving the problem part of it more so than it's my fault, it's their fault or whatever. Because if we didn't have this instinctual blaming self or what do you call defensive?

• 28:50Jocko Willink?

  Defensive mechanisms.

• 28:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, that it, it wouldn't, it'd just be way different. So, but since that is a natural thing, it's kind of like, it has to be part of extreme ownership. You know, it just has to be for you to be compelled to solve the problem. If you believe, like for real belief, not, if you, if you, if I just go, ooh, this is my fault, and that's it, and I don't really believe that I can solve the problem. It's like this, um, one of, one of the guys at Echelon Front was talking to a client the other day, and one of the senior people, one of the senior executives said, you know, oh, I've got, you know, 1,200 people

• 29:33Speaker 01

  that work for me. I can't be responsible for what they do when they make a mistake.

• 29:38Jocko Willink?

  And here's the deal. When you have that attitude, you're right. You can't do anything. And this goes back, you know, I talked about it with Daryl Cooper on the Abu Ghraib thing. If the leadership says, you know what, the people that are in the prison that are guarding the insurgents that were captured, if they do something, if they abuse those prisoners, that's not on me. That's, that's somebody on the front line. If you have that attitude, then yeah, you're gonna have problems. But if you have the attitude, hey, what happens on the front line is my responsibility. Then guess what you do? You clarify your commander's intent. You make sure that everyone understands what the rules of engagement are. You make sure that everyone understands what the goal of having these people in these situations are. You're making sure they understand what happens if they get caught.

• 30:22Jocko Willink?

  Or, or yeah, what happens if they get caught abusing prisoners, what that's gonna look like, what that's gonna do to the war effort. You do all these things to mitigate that. That's what you do. But when you think, well, yo, of course I'm responsible, but I'm not really responsible. You don't take the actions necessarily. You don't take that preemptive ownership to solve those problems. And then when something does go wrong, if you throw up your hands and go, I can't control what's happening on the front line, I'm firing you immediately. I'm firing you in 10 seconds. If, if I, if someone happens to the front line and I talk to the leader and I say, you know, your, your frontline people did X, Y, and Z wrong. And they go, hey, you know what? I can't control what's happening on the front line. I'm like, cool, you're fired. You know what I mean? Like you, if that's your attitude, I want someone that says, hey, you know what? Here's the things that I'm implementing. Make sure that doesn't happen again.

• 31:07Jocko Willink?

  Here's the course I'm running. Here's the oversight I'm putting in, you know, X, Y, Z to solve those problems. That's what I'm gonna do. And I go, okay, great. You're obviously taking ownership of the problem. I'll take, you know, I'm gonna take ownership. Maybe I can provide you this or that to help you. But then the, once it gets there, that, that problem doesn't continue on indefinitely. We get it solved. That's the beauty of extreme ownership is that the problem gets solved.

• 31:31Speaker 01

  So you're, uh, so when you fire a guy, you know, theoretically, it's kinda like you're firing him because like you, the example you just said right there with the guy who has that attitude, right? Oh, I don't control this. You fire him essentially because he's gonna continue to either allow or be a problem. That's gonna continue.

• 31:49Jocko Willink?

  Yes, it's gonna continue on.

• 31:50Speaker 01

  Kinda thing. So like getting rid of him, replacing whatever, that essentially solves a root of, of a problem.

• 31:55Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 31:55Speaker 01

  Bigger problem. Um, so what do you, you know, cause every once in a while you'll find a situation, company, whatever, where they'll fire a guy just as punishment. Like the, it's not necessarily that given the circum, particular circumstance where he'll continue to be a problem. It's not that kinda situation or it doesn't, it's not obvious that it's that kinda situation, but it's like, we need someone's head for this mistake, you know, like that kinda stuff or whatever. Like, how would you like, I don't know, how would you approach?

• 32:25Jocko Willink?

  Uh, taking extreme ownership does not prevent you from getting fired.

• 32:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:29Jocko Willink?

  We should be perfectly clear about that. I will tell you that in my opinion, you have a better chance of not getting fired if you take ownership than if you put your hands up and or point fingers at other people. Either you put your hands up and say, well, there's nothing I could do about it. That was the front lines. That's not me. I'm firing you. If you say, well, it wasn't my fault. It was the junior leader that directed that. Oh, so are you gonna fire that leader? Or were you gonna train him? Are you gonna do something different? Are you gonna implement some standard operating procedures that can happen? Or are you just saying you can't control it? Cause if you can't control it, I don't need you here.

• 33:00Jocko Willink?

  So yes, sometimes people take ownership and they're getting fired anyways. I will say this, if they're proactively really truly taking ownership of what is happening, if they're taking preemptive ownership, they're not gonna be sitting in that position in the first place. Cause whatever things are unfolding, they go, man, if we get caught doing that, I'm gonna be the one responsible for it. I, I own this. And so, hey, frontline, you can't do that. Here's the training. Here's the right protocol. Here's the, here's how you handle those situations and don't ever do that again. And they go, oh, okay. And now when the boss comes to me and says, hey, we had this just flare up. I go, yeah, here's what I did about it. I'm aware of what's happening. I already got it under wraps, boss. And I go, okay, cool. Thanks. But if I go, well, you know, all that stuff was happening and I never did anything about it.

• 33:44Jocko Willink?

  And I didn't know about it. Guess what? Expect to get fired. Extreme ownership does not prevent you from getting fired postmortem. You know, you caused a problem. You allowed a problem to happen under your command. You have a better chance of not getting fired if you take ownership of it. But if you have an egregious thing happen and it's on your watch, you might get fired.

• 34:06Jocko Willink?

  And if you make excuses, if you think you can kind of weasel your way out of it, you're, you're, you're gonna get fired as well. You're just gonna look like a weasel.

• 34:15Speaker 01

  Funny, like have this vision of the guy, you know, who got, gets fired right in on his way out. He has his, what do you call it? Like a little basket of his stuff, you know, that classic image. And he's like, but I took extreme ownership, but I took.

• 34:28Jocko Willink?

  You should have taken extreme ownership prior to this happening.

• 34:31Speaker 01

  And look, I actually, it's funny. Okay, remember what I said, how extreme ownership is always on the top, right? Like no matter what the problem, even that, let's say I got fired, like I got, I took extreme ownership. It was my fault, fully believed in everything. And then I got fired still, right? Meanwhile, I'm like mad at extreme ownership. I took extreme ownership, it didn't work, got fired. Aren't you sort of blaming extreme ownership now?

• 34:53Jocko Willink?

  In a strange, in a strange world, you are correct. You are, you are now blaming extreme ownership. But, but what you're really doing is you're, you're, you're trying to take ownership after the fact. That's why it's important to have the attitude of extreme ownership. That's the problem with, and this is what I wrote about in leadership strategy and tactics. The problem with extreme ownership is that it's postmortem. It's after the fact. Preemptive ownership is, hey, you take ownership of everything that's going on. So you prevent these problems from occurring. Now, if they occur, I will promise you, the best thing you can do is say, here's the problem. Here's the mistakes I made. Here's what I'm going to do to fix it. That is your best method of survival.

• 35:37Jocko Willink?

  And if you don't do that, or if you do that, it's no, lads, I just said, it's no guarantee that you're not going to get fired. Cause you still might get fired.

• 35:46Jocko Willink?

  But if you run in there and you make a bunch of excuses, I mean, yeah.

• 35:51Speaker 01

  No good.

• 35:52Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 35:54Speaker 01

  Next question. Jocko, heard General Mattis say that he looks for initiative and aggressiveness in NCOs. I'm not a naturally aggressive leader. Do you believe leaders should be aggressive by nature? When to be aggressive or when do you be aggressive? Does it come off as fake if it's not natural?

• 36:16Jocko Willink?

  So, you know, obviously, this is something we talk about all the time is that being default aggressive is good for leaders. Yes, that is a true statement. There's a dichotomy, obviously, because you can be too aggressive and then things go wrong and things go bad and things don't work. And yes, there are some people that are, let's say, more aggressive by nature. And then let's also remember that being aggressive means a lot more than just being loud, brash and in your face, right? That is the stereotypical thing that we think of when we think of, oh, that guy's really aggressive. You think this guy's in your face, he's yelling, he's, you know, pushing people over.

• 36:59Jocko Willink?

  That is not the type of aggressiveness that you need to be an effective leader. You don't need to be a loud mouth, you don't need to be brash, you don't need to get in people's faces.

• 37:11Jocko Willink?

  What being aggressive means is, is taking action. That's the kind of aggressiveness that I'm talking about. That's the kind of aggressiveness that General Mattis is talking about. And, you know, the definition, I actually wrote this down, the definition of, of aggressive, or one of the definitions of being aggressive is forceful and sometimes overly assertive pursuit of one's aims. So, first of all, forceful, we get, right? Sometimes overly assertive means sometimes that you have to go a little bit like harder. And here's why that's important because, listen, in combat...

• 37:52Jocko Willink?

  Almost nothing will happen the way you want it to if you don't force it that way.

• 37:58Jocko Willink?

  Right? You are coming against a powerful force, the enemy, nature, time, there's all kinds of things that that are going against you. It's a losing battle. And if you don't use force of will, then then then you're not going to get it done. You have to be aggressive and make things happen. I remember, so there was a, there was, we all got interviewed after we came home from Ramadi. And I remember I was listening to Seth Stone get interviewed. And it was just, they were just trying to, you know, capture whatever information, moments, historical, accounts

• 38:40Jocko Willink?

  of what had happened in Ramadi. And Seth said something along the lines of, every operation we did, you could feel Jaco beating his head against the wall to make things happen. And I, you know, of course, I laughed. But from his perspective, and it's a good perspective, and it's an accurate perspective, none of this, nothing just kind of, oh, that fell into my lap. That just doesn't happen. It doesn't happen in combat. It just doesn't happen in combat. And so, yes, this idea that you're going to be aggressive is, is, is very important. But if you think to yourself, well, okay, okay, look, I'm not the type of person that likes to be a loud mouth, likes to shout, likes to yell. Cool. Good. It doesn't matter. You don't need to be that way.

• 39:25Jocko Willink?

  What it means is, is you need to make things happen. That's what it means. And it can be, this is the good thing about being aggressive. Sure, there's, there's certain parts of your nature that are aggressive, but it can also be trained. You can, you can start to think with an aggressive mindset, which is, I am going to take action. I'm going to overcome obstacles. I'm going to push through roadblocks. I'm not going to take no foreign answer.

• 39:55Jocko Willink?

  And those are things that you can train. And, and, and how do you train them? Look, when you, when you hit an obstacle, you look at it, you, you know, you shake your head and you go, cool. Let's go, let's figure this out. There's so often times where people, they get told no, or they hit an obstacle and it's game over for them. They're just done, they're done training, they're over it. And your attitude, you have to go, okay, little, little roadblock, cool. How am I going to get through it? How am I getting around it? And I used to put people, so to train people to be more aggressive, regardless of what they're, and believe me, I had, I had guys, you know, SEAL officers that were coming through that, or SEAL chiefs that were coming through. Real, real passive guys, quiet guys, you know, not type of person that you would figure, oh, this guy's, oh yeah, that guy's aggressive. You wouldn't characterize him as that.

• 40:41Jocko Willink?

  But I would, so what I would do is put them in situations where if they didn't make aggressive decisions to make things happen, they were going to get annihilated. Put them in training scenarios like that, okay. Oh, you want to sit here and you want to wait? Like you're getting attacked and you want to sit here and you want to, you don't make, don't want to make a decision, cool. In, in 16 minutes, I will have everyone in your task unit dead. We will kill them all with paintball. If you, and, and so they learn that, and I go, what do you think happened? You know, and they'd say, well, we, we started to get surrounded and, and I go, and what did you do? Well, you know, we, we held position. Okay, how'd you, how long did you hold position for? We held it for a while. And what did the enemy do? Well, they started to maneuver. And then what'd you do? Well, we held position. And then what did the enemy do? Well, they maneuvered more. And then what'd you do? I held position.

• 41:27Jocko Willink?

  And then we started taking casualties. And then the enemy maneuvered and then they closed the distance and then they took us out. Okay, what do you think would have been better? Well, perhaps when it first started before they had us enveloped, I could have made a maneuver to get to another building with some more high ground. Hmm, that sounds like a great idea. Next time, why don't you be a little bit more aggressive in making things happen? Okay, put them in the same scenario, they get a little bit more aggressive, they realize that it's, that it, it serves its function. And they start to develop the attitude and they start to understand what a lack of aggression will get you. Cause that's an important thing to know, right? It's not just the carrot, it's the stick. Cool, if I do, if I do this aggressive thing, it'll be rewarding. If I don't do something aggressive, we're going to get annihilated.

• 42:10Jocko Willink?

  So here's the other thing that you gotta be ready for. So, so if you're, if you're a person that you lean towards being passive, you've got to start to lean towards being aggressive. And here's the thing that you gotta remember, you're gonna make mistakes. Cause when you're aggressive, you're taking more risk and often you're taking more risk. Now, when you, if you played out the whole matrix of being passive versus being aggressive, I will tell you that being aggressive is the one that ends up on top. Are there, but there are scenarios where your aggressiveness ends up costing you a little bit. That, that absolutely happens. It happens in business, it happens in life, it happens on the battlefield.

• 42:49Jocko Willink?

  But overall, being aggressive is what, this is why, this is why, this is where the idea you've, this is where the idea of aggressive has to be your default mode. This is exactly why aggression has to be your default mode. Your default mode is aggressive. If your default mode is aggressive and it's not the right answer, you just, you just use the other answer, right?

• 43:11Speaker 01

  Right.

• 43:12Jocko Willink?

  Your default mode is aggressive. That's the why I originally said to these young SEAL officers, your default mode has to be aggressive. So if you're not sure if you should stay or should go, go to the default, which is gonna be aggressive. Cause nine times out of 10, seven times out of 10, eight times out of 10, that's gonna be a better move than sitting on your ass and doing nothing. That's what's gonna get you killed. So your default mode is to go. Now, do you always go with your default mode?

• 43:38Speaker 01

  No.

• 43:39Jocko Willink?

  No, you don't always go with it to the default mode. But occasionally you go, oh, you know what? I'm not gonna go to the default mode. You put it, you pull the setting out and you go into the other mode.

• 43:47Speaker 01

  Customize it.

• 43:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you customize a little bit for that particular situation. But your default mode is, I'm gonna be aggressive. And that's the, the odds. You want the odds, you wanna stack the odds in your favor.

• 43:59Speaker 01

  What is Jason, Jason Gardner says, puts it kind of a cool, like, good way to just really wrap your head around like being in a default mode. Something along the lines of like, it's easier, it's better to like, have to pull someone back.

• 44:13Jocko Willink?

  Totally.

• 44:13Speaker 01

  Than have to push them forward.

• 44:15Jocko Willink?

  It's, it's a million times easier to have to pull the reins in on someone, on a, on an element, on a team, on a leader, on a person. It's, it's a million times easier to go, all right, all right, hey, come on back.

• 44:26Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 44:26Jocko Willink?

  You're going too hard. Then going, hey, you need to get out there.

• 44:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:30Jocko Willink?

  Because by the way, I mean, if you think about this from a. Like an actual event unfolding. If an event unfolds and you're the person that's on point and you don't react to it properly, that that event needs to make it through you to me before I can now assess what I think you should do and then tell you to go do it and then kick you in the ass so you go do it. I don't want that. We already lost.

• 44:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:56Jocko Willink?

  I want, I want you to go, hey, oh, we just got this event started unfolding. I'm on it. And you look back at me, hey, Jocko, I'm solving this problem right now. Oh, what's the problem? Right? I don't even know what the problem is yet. You're already solving it.

• 45:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:07Jocko Willink?

  That's what I want. And if I happen to occasionally have to pull the reins on you, I'm more than happy to pull the reins on you.

• 45:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:15Jocko Willink?

  What? So yes, that's a universal. It's easier to lead someone that you have to pull the reins on than you have to push.

• 45:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:23Jocko Willink?

  We'd rather pull back than push forward. And that, that idea of being aggressive is, is part of that. So I want all my, I want all my subordinate leaders to be aggressive. And as a leader, I know that my subordinates are going to make mistakes while they're learning to be aggressive. And even when they're being aggressive, and I'm, they're considered fully trained and fully ready, they're still gonna make mistakes. I'm still gonna make mistakes being aggressive. I'm gonna make mistakes. But we're gonna play the odds. And the odds are,

• 45:58Jocko Willink?

  the odds are you be aggressive. I'm trying to think of a good blackjack, you know, you ever play blackjack before?

• 46:03Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 46:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So I mean, like, there's, you know, dealers showing a whatever. Dealers, dealers showing 20 and you're showing a 14? You gotta hit it. Like, that's the odds. The odds are you gotta hit it.

• 46:19Jocko Willink?

  Dealer showing a 14 and you're showing a 14? You gotta let, you gotta, you gotta hold, let the dealer, let the dealer take the hit.

• 46:26Speaker 01

  Do they call it, I forget, what, do they call it showing 20? Cause you know, one is down, one is up, right? Do they call that showing 20? Let's say you have a 10.

• 46:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because you don't know what the other card is.

• 46:35Speaker 01

  You just assume it's a 10.

• 46:36Jocko Willink?

  You assume that it's a 10.

• 46:37Speaker 01

  So he's showing 20, okay.

• 46:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. I haven't played blackjack in a while. I can't, I can't believe I'm like struggling with my thought process around blackjack, around the numbers.

• 46:45Speaker 01

  No, that's how, bro. It was, it was more of a terminology situation.

• 46:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. But you play the odds.

• 46:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:51Jocko Willink?

  And there's rules when you're playing the odds in blackjack. There's rules of what you hit and what you don't. And you stick with the rules, the odds are gonna be on your side.

• 46:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:00Jocko Willink?

  More than if you don't, if you just sit back. And that's, and so we're playing the odds, we're playing the odds with leadership. And the odds are your default mode, it's not that you never come out of default mode. The odds are you be aggressive. So back to this question here, well, it's another couple of things in this question. When to be aggressive? Look, the default mode is be aggressive and sometimes you look at it, you go, now's not the time. Does it come off as fake or not natural? Hey, it's not.

• 47:29Jocko Willink?

  Being aggressive from this perspective isn't how you're acting. It's the decisions that you're making. It's the decision. I was, I was working with a client yesterday and we were talking about data. I think it was a client call or it was another. Yeah, it was about data and it was actually the very similar question. Hey, I'm, I'm not very aggressive and I'm more of a data guy and I like numbers and that's how I roll. And yet I'm not getting recognized. And I was like, cool. Get aggressive with your data. Put your data together and present it up the chain of command, not to say, hey, look at me, but to say, hey, here's what's going on. Here's what I'm doing. You're being aggressive with your data. You're showing them what's happening because the guy wasn't getting the recognition that he needed. Right? And he was, so that meant his senior leadership didn't know what he was doing,

• 48:14Jocko Willink?

  which meant he's not getting the resources that he needs to do his job. And instead of being like, hey, this is what I need because he's not an aggressive guy. He's sitting back and just getting resources stripped away from him. I said, cool. You're a data guy. Record the data of what you're doing, present it and the data, let the data speak. Get default aggressive with your data.

• 48:35Jocko Willink?

  Uh, did I miss anything here? Yeah. So it's not natural. Yeah. I mean, I mean, if you all of a sudden start to try and act. You know, this, this new way.

• 48:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, Brad, don't do that.

• 48:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's, it's, it's probably not going to go good. Now, can you, do you sometimes have to learn like, okay, you know what? I gotta stand up and say something. I gotta put word out, right? You know? And I watched many guys in my career go through the transition of being a little bit less aggressive and they realize, you know what? I'm in charge of this thing. I gotta go put the word out and, and that's perfectly fine.

• 49:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, those kind of, for lack of a better term, superficial personality traits that are aggressive. Some people say, oh, well, that's that's aggressive, you know, where there's more depth to it. We're like, cause again, like, you know, you can think of like a, I don't know, some fictional or maybe even not fictional, like maybe Japanese business tycoon who doesn't say nothing, really. You know, but you know, he's making aggressive moves like that's an aggressive guy, kind of, you know, there's, it goes deep. And then, you know, a guy who you were saying like he yells and screams and has a loud voice or whatever. It's kind of, okay, if that's your personality, that's gonna land for sure. But it's more about the decision you make.

• 49:45Jocko Willink?

  Well, when you say it's gonna land, what do you mean? Cause that might just make a bunch of people angry.

• 49:49Speaker 01

  Right, right. Sometimes, well, it depends on what you're yelling and screaming for sure.

• 49:52Jocko Willink?

  But what you're saying is there could be someone that's loud and scream, but they're, but they're, they're using that to cover the fact that they're actually not making any moves.

• 49:59Speaker 01

  Potentially, potentially, yes.

• 50:00Jocko Willink?

  So the yelling and screaming has very little do with aggressive movement on the battlefield.

• 50:04Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 50:04Jocko Willink?

  Is what you're saying.

• 50:05Speaker 01

  Oh, I'm saying there's more depth to it, but the point actually is, is that, um.

• 50:09Jocko Willink?

  You should have just taken that point, cause that was a good point. You should have taken that one and run with it, but I'll let you continue.

• 50:14Speaker 01

  This was probably less glorified, but nonetheless, if you, if, cause he's concerned about faking it or coming off as fake. Where if you're focused on those, like a superficial elements of your personality being aggressive, that's the part they're gonna smell is fake if you're trying to change that part of it, you know? Like, oh, this, bro, we used to have this in seventh grade, he's, I don't know, I think he's like a music teacher, I don't know, something.

• 50:35Jocko Willink?

  Super aggressive music teacher.

• 50:37Speaker 01

  He was like a nice dude, like really nice.

• 50:40Jocko Willink?

  There's not too many stereotypical, hyper aggressive music teachers.

• 50:44Speaker 01

  No, man, he was, no, he wasn't.

• 50:46Jocko Willink?

  I had, I had an assistant platoon commander and aggressive, great guy. And he, you know, I didn't, I, you know, as, as I got to know him, you know, and, and I was like, so what'd you study in college? And he's like percussion.

• 51:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, man.

• 51:02Jocko Willink?

  What? I'm like, what are you talking about? I was like, what concussion? What? He's like percussion, drumming. He was a drum, he started drumming in college. Which is just kind of.

• 51:13Speaker 01

  Going deep in percussion.

• 51:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I didn't know you could major in percussion. I mean, I guess, but anyways.

• 51:20Speaker 01

  The history of percussion?

• 51:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 51:22Speaker 01

  Properties of percussion.

• 51:23Jocko Willink?

  My point is, had he become a music teacher, he'd probably have been a bit, because he was an aggressive assistant platoon commander.

• 51:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:30Jocko Willink?

  Had to, had to pull the reins on him sometimes. He'd be out there getting after it.

• 51:34Speaker 01

  This guy was not aggressive at all. He was like a nice guy trying to please everyone, you know, short term and long term kind of thing, which didn't really work with, I think, I'm pretty sure it was seventh grade. So he was like, I remember guys would just run circles around him. You know, like people wouldn't listen and all this. So he had trouble controlling the class, we'll say that. And then at one, one time, he tried to switch his personality.

• 51:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 51:55Speaker 01

  One time he dropped a book, you know how like sometimes when you drop a, drop a big book? Yeah, sometimes when it hits correctly, it's like boom, it's like a fire. So one time, Brad, he tried to do that and it didn't make the sound. And like no one, everyone was like, what the fuck is this guy doing? And he's like looking at everybody with his eyes all big. Nonetheless, I think that was like, I think he got aggressive one day and people like shut up. And we're like, hey, this guy's like, you know how when someone's never aggressive and then they start yelling? You're like, everyone kind of be quiet, like dang, this guy's yelling. So I think he might've got a small little payoff one day. And then from then on, he started to try to be like aggressive. Everyone could smell it on him. Like, bro, that's not even your thing. So it worked against him. Yeah, everyone was kind of laughing at him now, now he's like a weirdo.

• 52:39Jocko Willink?

  Yep, so no, no, no, no need to do that.

• 52:41Speaker 01

  No need.

• 52:41Jocko Willink?

  Don't be throwing the music book on the table.

• 52:43Speaker 01

  No, no, big textbook is on the floor too. Yeah, it didn't work, unfortunately.

• 52:50Jocko Willink?

  Next question. So this question is actually that I got, one of them that I got from EF Online. So EF Online, you know, since the big lockdown in the world, we've pushed a lot of resources and time and effort into EF Online. It was actually something that we were working on, so it's good timing. But EF Online used to be a relatively static training platform, really aimed at enterprise clients. So big companies would train their people based on the leadership principles. And, but it's, it's a powerful tool. And so with the lockdown, we've been working with a lot of our clients through webinars.

• 53:31Jocko Willink?

  So what we, basically, we've, we've, we've really kind of re-

• 53:38Speaker 01

  Formulated?

• 53:39Jocko Willink?

  Reformulated and are re-attacking this online world. And so what we, so we're doing a bunch of live webinars. We're doing Q and A sessions. We've got chats going on. We've got, we've got a forum. So we've got all kinds of things that are happening. What it's doing is now it's got, we've got like a community of people that are on there all the time. They're asking us questions. We're just, it's just awesome. And so one of the questions that I got asked was from a, from a police officer, who was basically talking about, he's got some complainers. Or he was talking about one complainer in particular.

• 54:16Jocko Willink?

  And the question was, what advice do you have for dealing with that one officer on your team? That is the Debbie Downer.

• 54:29Jocko Willink?

  They complain about everything. You know, the one, no matter what you ask the team to do, that one guy or gal that sucks all the energy out of the room, the buzzkill.

• 54:42Jocko Willink?

  So I thought that this was a good question and I thought it was a good question because everybody knows that there's a everybody knows that person so much that there's a term for it Debbie Downer Debbie Downer Right, there's a an existing a pre-existing term for that person that's complaining and being a being negative about everything So A couple And what's cool what's really cool about doing this stuff online is now you know right now I'm reading the question when I'm doing this where where the person's there Like we're talking face I mean it's not face to face but it's face to face because you're on the interwebs and I'm looking right at the person they're looking right at me And so it's very cool you're having a conversation you know the one thing that's negative about the this podcast is

• 55:26Jocko Willink?

  Well it's us reading our best interpretation of a question through the interwebs whereas EF online you can Yeah they can clarify Actually clarify you can talk you can get details and it it makes it really um makes it really cool so So so so back to this question Debbie Downer so Leadership strategy and tactics I talked about what one of the solutions that I have for a lot of different leadership problems is actually putting people in charge So you put somebody in charge of the of a mission of a project of a task And they want to complain about it cool they can complain about themselves because they're the one that's running it so

• 56:05Jocko Willink?

  That's that's one option and that that option works a lot right sometimes it might not work sometimes it might not be feasible You know you can't take maybe a junior person and put them in charge of a giant project because it's just you you the way the responsibility has been doled out from the chain of command You're not allowed To put you know private Jackson Sure In charge of or or or private Debbie Downer in charge of something so here's another and this is another option that

• 56:38Jocko Willink?

  Another thing that you can do, and this is a really incredibly brilliant solution. Listen to them.

• 56:49Jocko Willink?

  Right? Actually, listen to what they have to say. So sometimes people complain.

• 56:56Jocko Willink?

  Because they complain so much, no one actually ever listens to them and they just keep doing it and it has no impact. The only impact that it has is it gives them a little good feeling because they got to put up a little protest, right? They got to throw a little shot, a little negative shot. At the whole, at the man, at the system, at the mission, at the bar. They get to just throw this little complaint out. And look, it's, it's, it's kind of within the rules, right? Like you're, it's no one, it's, it's almost bad to say, hey, I don't want to hear any complaints, right? So you complain and you get away with it.

• 57:30Jocko Willink?

  So, so that's what they do. They gotta get this passive aggressive little complaining going on. So one thing you can do is actually listen to what they say. Actually say, oh, you know what, Echo? Actually, can you meet me after this meeting? I want to actually dig down and see what you're talking about. All of a sudden they're thrown for a loop. Just that right there can solve the problem. And then when they comment, when you talk to them, actually write down what they are talking about. So those are two solution things. And then, you know, again, because EF online is live and I'm actually talking to the person that's asking me this question.

• 58:06Jocko Willink?

  So, you know, I said, well, hey, what's going on? And I started digging out, digging into it a little bit. And the complaint was, was again, this is a police department. The complaint was about the current mission that was happening. And the mission that they had been, the mission that his squad had been in charge of had been shifted. And this person, well, that's main thing that this person was complaining about, why are we doing this? This should be someone else, blah, blah, blah, blah. And, you know, it was a hard mission. And then as I'm talking to the leader, the leader actually says, like, well, you know, I didn't like the mission either. So think about that. Think about that. The leader didn't like the mission. And one of the subordinates is complaining about it.

• 58:49Jocko Willink?

  And I'm saying, of course, you're gonna have people complaining about the mission. You don't even like the mission. You don't even like the mission. And now you're surprised that some of your subordinates are complaining, and one in particular that always complains anyways is complaining about something that you don't even like. So, you know, here's the deal. Like I said, talk to the complainer, write down their complaints, and then actually give some responses or reasons that explain why things are happening the way they are happening. Actually give explanations for what that individual is complaining about.

• 59:26Jocko Willink?

  And by the way, if you don't have good explanations, then go get them. Go up your chain of command and say, hey, boss, here's what's going on, you know, this is what we're, this is what some of my troops are saying, and I agree with these parts. Can we get some explanations behind this?

• 59:45Jocko Willink?

  So it's like, um, when we got to Ramadi. You're gonna be working with Iraqi soldiers. I got all kinds of complaints about that out of the gate, and as I've said many times before, I was the chief complainer for about three minutes. Before I said, okay, why are we actually doing this? Let me think about this. And I didn't have to ask this up in my chain of command because I figured out why we were doing it. It was what we needed to do to win the war.

• 1:00:10Jocko Willink?

  And so then I was able to explain, you want to complain? Cool, I accept your complaint. I agreed with it a minute ago. Here's the solution I came to. Here's the answer. Here's why we're doing this. And all of a sudden, the complaints are gonna go down.

• 1:00:24Jocko Willink?

  And then if you've got people that are complaining about things, you give them the answer.

• 1:00:30Jocko Willink?

  And you'll move forward. That's why I don't look at complaining as a negative thing necessarily. And by the way, if complaining is happening and I let it continue to happen, whose fault is that? Is it Debbie Downer's fault? Is it?

• 1:00:43Speaker 01

  Kinda.

• 1:00:43Jocko Willink?

  No, no, no, I almost just hugged a knife at you.

• 1:00:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, it feels like it, that's why. You can be like, oh yeah, I can't believe Debbie Downer. All he gotta do is not complain.

• 1:00:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, just shut up, don't complain. No, actually, I own this. Oh, one of my subordinates is complaining? Okay, cool. How can I solve this? How about we figure out, research what the complaints are about? And not only does it stop them from complaining, but I'm actually building relationships with the team because I'm being responsive to what their complaints are. And when I do that, I make the team tighter and I make the operational capability of the team higher. And now we can do a better job accomplishing our mission.

• 1:01:28Jocko Willink?

  So, when you get a complainer, try listening to what the complaints are. You can try putting them in charge. You can give them explanations as to why the things they're complaining about aren't happening. Because if I got my team complaining, I'm gonna assume that there's some validity to it. And if there's no validity to it, well then, cool, you come to me with a complaint that's completely invalid? And I show you, oh, oh yeah, here's why your complaint's invalid, because this, this, and this. So now you're complaining about something that is not true, right? You're not gonna continue down that road. You're gonna go, I didn't realize that, boss. Or you're gonna say, well, if that's true, boss, then why, what about this? And I go, okay, let me, let me figure that one out for you. I'm not sure.

• 1:02:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, kinda goes along with like how you'd say, like when you pull the thread, you know?

• 1:02:13Jocko Willink?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:02:14Speaker 01

  Like, the beginning of that thread is just the complaint, right? But when you start pulling the thread all the way out, it's kinda like, oh shoot, there's some valid stuff in here. But in a different situation, it could be that, yeah, this guy's just a complainer, this answers to all of this stuff.

• 1:02:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:28Speaker 01

  That maybe like, I don't know, maybe it's his laziness or his whatever, like all invalid complaints. When you pull out that thread, it's like you can see that too.

• 1:02:36Jocko Willink?

  Right. Yeah, there could be valid, it could be invalid.

• 1:02:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:39Jocko Willink?

  Pull the thread, find the answer to that, and give it to them.

• 1:02:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:43Jocko Willink?

  Listening, the, the, the most underrated tool of leadership, your ears.

• 1:02:49Speaker 01

  But you can kind of, I mean, it, it's not like so, like... Ludicrous though, like to dismiss a complainer. It's not that because you know, like how you said, everyone knows a Debbie Downer. And man, after a while, the complaint can be valid or invalid. It's kind of like, man, you just, but you just complained so much, you just dismiss them already, you know? Literally like a Debbie, I'm thinking.

• 1:03:12Jocko Willink?

  But, yes, but the only way to break them of that, they've gotten into that habit because their complaints don't have any, they don't have any,

• 1:03:23Jocko Willink?

  they don't have, they don't have any outcome, they don't have any result. The only thing there is a little, a little, uh, yeah, a little pay, what's that, what's that thing? A little dopamine hit when I say, this is the dumbest mission we've ever done. And then that's it, it just makes me feel good, everyone heard me. You know, everyone knows that I think this is dumb and now I'm just gonna continue. You're going through the motions of whatever, but I'm being negative and I'm dragging the people down. But at least I got mine.

• 1:03:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:47Jocko Willink?

  And, and the habit forms that, and you can break that habit. When someone goes, oh, this is the dumbest mission I've ever seen. Hey, hey, what, what, what part of the mission do you think is dumb? Let me, you know, what part? Oh, let me get my, let me get my notebook and write this down. What do you got? You know, it's another thing on EF online, I've been doing these, um, leadership primers of saying like, hey, here's a little thing that, here's a little thing to think about, right? When you, when you, uh, for the reason I use this word leadership primer. So Hackworth has a book called Vietnam Primer. Get people ready, it was written in like, whatever, sixty, sixty-eight. When guys were getting ready to go to Vietnam.

• 1:04:31Jocko Willink?

  And so he wrote Vietnam Primer to give them a heads up, get their mind right, give them some good tips for, for how that, to be ready to deploy. Well, think about this, think if, think if you were walking to your house and there was a, uh, a bad guy in there. A criminal had broken in and he, and as soon as you walked in, he, he, you know, threw a punch at you or he ran at you or he was, let's not go that, he, when you walked in, he's confronting you.

• 1:05:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:03Jocko Willink?

  Think if 10 seconds before you walked in, you got the message that said, hey, when you walk in here, there's a bad guy in your house.

• 1:05:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:10Jocko Willink?

  You're, you would respond way better.

• 1:05:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:13Jocko Willink?

  So the leadership primer, EFL mind, the leadership primer is just me saying, hey, here's a little something to think about today. Here's a little something to put you, and one of the leadership primers I did the other day was, get a notebook. Get a notebook, a little notebook, keep it in your pocket. When somebody tells you something, up the chain or down the chain of command, get out your notebook and write it down.

• 1:05:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:35Jocko Willink?

  You know how, how powerful that is?

• 1:05:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:40Jocko Willink?

  Think of it, if you, think of it from either direction. Think of you're my subordinate and you tell me something and I get out my notebook and write it down. What are you thinking?

• 1:05:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think dang, this guy cares.

• 1:05:48Jocko Willink?

  Yep. Now, what if you're my boss? And you say, hey, Jaco, can you take care of X, Y, Z? And I go, yes, no problem, sir. And I get out my notebook and write it down. What are you thinking?

• 1:05:55Speaker 01

  Same thing.

• 1:05:56Jocko Willink?

  Now,

• 1:05:58Jocko Willink?

  your initial thought is like, of course, it's positive. I actually have to follow through. I can't just like take notebooks and throw them away every day, right? So you have to actually take your notes and log them down. But that's a little, that's a little tool that you can use. You wouldn't be able to, when I was in the, dams, when I was in the team, you wouldn't be able to find me without a notebook. You would not be able to find me without a notebook. And by the way, I have a good memory too. I have a good memory, doesn't matter. When you tell me something, I'm going to write it down. Cause I, A, I don't want to forget it. And B, I want you to know that I got you. And you know what's cool? Three weeks goes by. And I go, hey Echo, you remember you asked me about this piece of gear that you thought we should have? Here's the research. We actually have them ordered.

• 1:06:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:39Jocko Willink?

  You know what I'm saying? Boom. Or you're my boss and I say, hey, boss, three weeks ago, you mentioned this to me off the cuff. You said you wanted to know how many guys I had called for this thing and how many we were going to have ready for deployment. I just want to let you know the number is 12 right now, and I'm going to have 17 when we go on deployment. And the boss goes, man, that's good. So what does that mean? Does that mean I'm kissing my boss's ass and, no. Means first of all, he had a reason for asking me that. And second of all, his trust in me just went up a little bit.

• 1:07:07Speaker 01

  Yep, fully.

• 1:07:09Jocko Willink?

  In both directions.

• 1:07:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:11Jocko Willink?

  So, that's the point here. When someone starts complaining to you, look, let's face it, a lot of time these complaints, they're throwaway comments.

• 1:07:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:20Jocko Willink?

  And all of a sudden, you're not letting them get thrown away.

• 1:07:22Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:07:23Jocko Willink?

  You're getting out the notebook on that. So little leadership primer, carry a notebook with you. Something happens, write it down. And I actually, you know, you could say, yeah, you know, you could just get out of your phone and go into the notes thing. But I kind of don't agree with that.

• 1:07:39Jocko Willink?

  Let's face it, when people pull out their phone, unless you go, hold on, you know, you, if you're gonna pull out your phone and make a note in your phone, you gotta tell them what you're doing. You gotta say, hold on a second, let me, let me, let me write that, let me put that in my notes. Cause otherwise they think, oh, cool. I'm telling him a major problem I've got and he's taking, he's shooting a text.

• 1:07:56Speaker 01

  Like getting bored with it.

• 1:07:58Jocko Willink?

  Checking the gram.

• 1:08:02Jocko Willink?

  So, yes, listen to your complaint. Well, overall, listen, when people have complaints, listen, dig down, pull the thread. Put them in charge, that's an option, but also listen, pull the thread, dig down, find the solution, find the reason. And explain it to them.

• 1:08:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, that no taking thing, I can't help, but, and this is just an extreme version of it, so which I think you kind of like almost implied a little bit there, where you know how like on the movie, I don't know which one, all of them, I don't know, you have the little, you know, you have the powerful boss walking around, then the little note taker, taking everything, writing every little thing down, you know, kind of thing. Don't be that guy writing everything down, you know, because it's, it's kind of like, brother, this guy's just a weird note taker.

• 1:08:46Jocko Willink?

  We're actually writing down positive things, right? Now, I guess a complaint's not a positive thing, but it's positive that you're saying, oh, wait a second, there's a problem, there's something you don't understand, cool, we'll write this down.

• 1:08:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, important stuff, you know, and it's, it almost goes back to like opening your mouth to begin with, you know, like you only say important stuff, don't just blah, blah, blah all the time. Same thing with the note taking almost kind of thing where if you're this, especially if you're a subordinate, right, where it's like, oh yeah, let me take some notes on.

• 1:09:12Jocko Willink?

  And also, let me make this perfectly clear. You're not taking notes so that you can prove to them that you're listening. You're actually taking notes so you can log down what they're saying and you can pull the string on it either direction. Right. That's what you're doing. You're not doing it so, oh, cool, I'm gonna make a good impression. No, you're doing it because it's gonna do a, it's gonna make you do a better job so you can better support the guys above you and below you in the chain of command so that we can win.

• 1:09:34Speaker 01

  Bro, that's such a good point because that's that caricature in the movie. Who's taking notes, you know, like the little

• 1:09:42Jocko Willink?

  You know what?

• 1:09:43Speaker 01

  Taking too many notes?

• 1:09:44Jocko Willink?

  I knew guys that would write things down and never do anything with them.

• 1:09:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:52Jocko Willink?

  I have less respect for you.

• 1:09:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that's what I'm saying.

• 1:09:56Jocko Willink?

  If you write it down, man, I expect some action.

• 1:09:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:59Jocko Willink?

  Right? I expect some action.

• 1:10:02Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. But that's the point, right, where that's why that character, character exists in the movie. Cause he's, he's displayed and shown as a kiss ass guy writing every little thing down. And you could tell that's his whole intention is to be the kiss ass. It's like to display that, you know, kind of thing where, and that's what it comes down to. Like your actual intention, cause like, like you always said, like, man, people can smell that on you. If you're like there to, if you have some ulterior motive or whatever.

• 1:10:29Jocko Willink?

  Intention has a strong smell.

• 1:10:31Speaker 01

  Yes, it does.

• 1:10:32Jocko Willink?

  You can quote me on that. Intention has a strong smell. And if your intention, what, what your intention is, will be smelled by the people around you.

• 1:10:42Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. And that's how it's gonna look. It has a look, too.

• 1:10:45Jocko Willink?

  It has a look, but the smell is more pungent. In both directions, in both directions, by the way. When my intention is to take care of you.

• 1:10:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:54Jocko Willink?

  That's, that is felt.

• 1:10:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:57Jocko Willink?

  It's smelt and it's pungent. If my, if my intention is to kiss your ass, you can smell that just as well.

• 1:11:05Speaker 01

  Smell it from a mile, mile away.

• 1:11:09Speaker 01

  Um, cool. Yes, I agree. Next question.

• 1:11:16Speaker 01

  This is gonna sound like a strange question, but how would you advise mentally preparing for the horrors of war? Like if you knew someone you cared about was going to be on the front lines, what would you tell them?

• 1:11:31Jocko Willink?

  I would tell them to detach. You know, I would tell them to detach. I would tell them to do their job, but don't get all caught up in it.

• 1:11:44Jocko Willink?

  Because that's what you have to do. If you're going to the front lines and you know, right now, there's a bunch of doctors and nurses going to the front lines and hospitals, and that can be emotionally overwhelming. Look, they do that for a living, but when you see overcrowded or whatever's happening, you could see where people might be overwhelmed by that, or their health at risk, so they're overwhelmed by that. So do your job, but you've got to stay detached from it. Don't get all caught up in it. And also, I would say, I would tell them, look, it's, the emotions that you're gonna have are okay, and it's normal. You're gonna feel scared, you're gonna feel disgusted, you're gonna feel horrified, you're gonna feel sick. All those things are, all those things are normal. They're normal feelings that you're

• 1:12:25Jocko Willink?

  gonna have when you are seeing this side of humanity for the first time. I would say, I would tell them to write down and talk about what they see, what they hear, what they feel with other people, because if you try and keep them contained inside your own head, you won't process them as well. When you write things down, it forces you to think through them. When you talk about it with other people, you get some of that out of your system. So I think that's powerful. Separate work from home, right? So you're gonna go in this horrible place. Don't bring that home with you. How do you do that? Change out of your uniform. Get,

• 1:13:09Jocko Willink?

  put your flip flops on. Put your, put your shorts on and your t-shirt when you get home. Don't wear your uniform. Don't wear your police uniform. Don't wear your, your doctors. Don't wear your scrubs home. Take them off. Don't wear your EMT uniform home. Don't, just don't do that. Change. And then compartmentalize, because you, you gotta compartmentalize these bad things. And, and I guess maybe that could be construed in a negative way, like I'm saying, lock down, you know, put them in a compartment and put them away. I'm not saying that. I'm saying separate, because, because what I'm saying, I'm not saying lock things, put things in a box and lock them there. I'm not saying that at all. I'm actually saying the opposite.

• 1:13:52Jocko Willink?

  Write about them, talk about them with your friends, you know, talk about what you experienced, what you felt, all that stuff. It's gonna make you feel better.

• 1:14:00Jocko Willink?

  But keep it separate from people that don't have that experience, right? So you don't want to drag home the war to your wife and your kids. You don't want to drag home the ER to your wife and your kids. You don't want to drag home the perpetrators and the horrible things you see as a police officer. You don't want to drag those home every day. So compartmentalize. And I think those are the things that I've done that I think have helped me.

• 1:14:41Jocko Willink?

  All right, this next question. Do you mind if I read this next question?

• 1:14:45Speaker 01

  I don't mind.

• 1:14:48Jocko Willink?

  This next question is kind of, it's a good question. I think we're going to get a lot out of it, but it's a little bit of a longer question. And I'm going to actually end up reading it, I think, twice. First, I'm just going to read it through. Here we go. "I've been working on asking you this question for over a year, and this is the best way I think I can articulate it. Everything I say falls on deaf ears. I try to give advice when asked or if someone is in trouble and they don't listen to the sound advice. Then later, I try to get them to listen to someone else that might have more credibility, an author or podcaster, philosopher, etc., and they still won't listen. They tried their hardest to make what solutions I'm trying to give

• 1:15:32Jocko Willink?

  don't not apply to them because of X, Y, and Z. All excuses, almost as if they are too good to implement the advice because it came from me and me alone. Literally solving people's problems, and they are deliberately not listening. It's not how I present the information they should use. My tonality is just fine. It's almost as if they won't listen because they know I'm right." And I want to prove, and they want to prove I'm wrong by not giving me the respect. I feel the majority of people see me as lesser, not worthy of respect or listening to even though I use such obvious logic.

• 1:16:15Jocko Willink?

  These people continuously try to exercise power over me defiantly.

• 1:16:22Jocko Willink?

  An extreme non-influential presence, even with logic, tact, respectfulness. No one wants to listen to me. People just refuse to even respectfully move out of the way when I'm trying to get around them. Not even strangers, people I live with. I don't understand what it is about me that most people don't respect. Everyone seems to have the attitude to defy or oppose everything I say. No matter the circumstances, whether I'm trying my best to lead, give advice, et cetera. People won't listen to me. They won't get behind me. I lack so much influence, it's not funny. I try, but to no avail. What do you think?

• 1:17:02Jocko Willink?

  So, look, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a rough situation, right? Like, I, I feel for the individual in that situation. I feel, you know, I think, ah, imagine the frustration that you feel being in that position where you're just, no one's listening to you.

• 1:17:23Jocko Willink?

  That being said, you know, we have a situation here where you can see a lot of it is based on everyone else's problems and not mine. So it starts off, everything I say falls on deaf ears. So even, even that statement right there, even that statement right there, out of the gate, it's not, it's not what I'm saying, it's that they are deaf.

• 1:17:42Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:17:43Jocko Willink?

  So that right there is just, we're opening, opening salvo is you're not listening to me. Then I try to give advice when asked, or if someone is in trouble and they don't listen to sound advice. Again, whose fault is that? I'm giving you sound advice and everyone else, they're not listening. Continues on, then I try to get them to listen to someone else that might have more credibility, an author or podcaster, philosopher, and they still won't listen. And I'm sitting there thinking to myself, I wonder what that sounds like.

• 1:18:14Jocko Willink?

  Right? I imagine that it sounds something like, you know, you should, you know, Hackworth says the exact same thing as me.

• 1:18:23Jocko Willink?

  Or, uh, or, uh, you know, you, you might want to listen to some Sam Harris. Cause if you listen to some Sam Harris, you listen to some Tim Ferriss, you'll see the light on this. Meaning I'm over here, I already see the light, you know? You might want to, you might want to check out the light with me, or, you know,

• 1:18:40Jocko Willink?

  Marcus Aurelius is a, he's a good reference point.

• 1:18:48Jocko Willink?

  You know? One of the classic Stoics, you might want to check him out. So I feel like there's a little, you know, you're just bolstering your opinion by offering other people that, that, that you agree with. And now it's supposed to give it clout.

• 1:19:08Jocko Willink?

  It's kind of the feeling I get a little bit. Okay, continuing on, then they try their hardest to make what solutions I'm trying to give doesn't apply to them because of X, Y, Z, all excuses. And again,

• 1:19:21Jocko Willink?

  now instead of saying, hey, what way am I explaining these? That people have got perfect solutions allegedly, which again, that's a huge, that's a huge assumption, is that my solutions are freaking perfect. And they just won't listen. But instead of saying that, it's like, oh, maybe my solutions, number one, aren't that great, or number two, maybe I'm not explaining them out very well. But none of this is my fault, it's their fault and they're just making excuses, that it's not on me.

• 1:19:51Jocko Willink?

  And then it continues, almost as if they are too good to implement the advice because it came from me and me alone. And, and this is where you start to hear that, this is where I start to get a little bit of a sense of the mindset of the individual. Because the individual's perception that they don't, that people don't like, or people don't respect them, the individual, it, it causes them, it causes that individual to act in ways that they, that that individual doesn't even perceive themselves.

• 1:20:27Jocko Willink?

  So what shows through, again, intent has a smell. What shows through is frustration. What shows through is resentment. You know what I'm saying? Resentment shows through. You can't hide resentment. Annoyance. When you're annoyed that people aren't listening to you, it shows through. Arrogance shows. When you're, when you think you have the perfect solution and that's how you're coming across, that's how you're talking to people, that shows through.

• 1:20:55Jocko Willink?

  And so although that, that perception that people don't like me, that perception that I'm, that, that people are looking down on me. That perception that you have of yourself shows through and it comes across in a bad way. The next sentence, literally solving people's problems and they are deliberately not listening. Again, none of this has to do with me. None of it has to do with my, um, my solutions themselves. None of it has to do with any of that. They just don't like me. It's their fault.

• 1:21:30Jocko Willink?

  Uh, and by the way, in doing that, we have to assume that these people are just gonna fail because they're not listening. So I would rather fail than listen to Fred here.

• 1:21:43Jocko Willink?

  And then he can, and then this is just, it's not how I present the information they should use. My tonality is just fine.

• 1:21:52Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, that's right.

• 1:21:54Jocko Willink?

  Right?

• 1:21:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:56Jocko Willink?

  Right? This is not my fault. My tonality is, my tonality is fine. Like the way I'm presenting. Look, I'm presenting this in the most just beautiful way.

• 1:22:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:04Jocko Willink?

  It's not, it's not on me. It's not my fault. My tonality is actually perfect. The way I present my ideas is so good.

• 1:22:13Speaker 01

  Do you know what's funny? It's like, I know you're exaggerating, but it's for good reason.

• 1:22:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I'm trying to make the point.

• 1:22:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. And that's good because you know, I'm, I'm putting myself in his shoes where I'm like, my tonality is fine. Like what, what does it feel like when you for real believe that your tonality is fine? You say, but my tonality is fine. Like, but really what it really is, is I've never, never really thought about it. It just, it doesn't stand out as not fine to me, you know? So it's like, Yeah, my tonality is fine. I'm gonna include that in there just so we all know kind of thing, right? That's how it feels for me, but in reality, it's like, oh, is it fine? Just fine. Cause apparently not, right? So that's why you exaggerated it to to help it stand out as a thing. You see what I'm saying? But yes, I feel it. That's what I felt when it's my tonality is fine. That's what I felt. You might as well have said my tonality is the most perfect tonality in the history of tonality.

• 1:23:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah. Cause yeah, cause that's not something that you would even think about.

• 1:23:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:23:06Jocko Willink?

  You just be like, uh, but you go through it and you think, you know what? The way I talk to everyone is actually fine. It's actually good.

• 1:23:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, like if it wasn't, I would know about it.

• 1:23:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, clearly.

• 1:23:16Speaker 01

  Stand out to me. Yeah, exactly.

• 1:23:19Jocko Willink?

  Next one, next sentence. It's almost as if they won't listen to me because they know I'm right. And they wanna prove I'm wrong by not giving me the respect.

• 1:23:32Jocko Willink?

  All kinds of insecurity issues right there. All kinds of, all kinds of insecurity and that insecurity comes across. And it doesn't come across as like, oh, you know, Echo is kinda insecure, but we'll listen. No, it comes across as you're overcompensating by a long shot.

• 1:23:53Jocko Willink?

  And by the way,

• 1:23:56Jocko Willink?

  it's almost as if they won't listen to me because they know I'm right. I mean, that's just crazy talk, right? How many times Echo Charles, how many times have you heard me say, I know I'm right?

• 1:24:07Speaker 01

  None. Zero.

• 1:24:10Jocko Willink?

  And and there's some things that I'm pretty knowledgeable about.

• 1:24:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:13Jocko Willink?

  Right? Yeah. There's some things that I'm pretty knowledgeable right about. And how many times have I, and I don't know what this, I don't even know what this guy does for a living. But let's say maybe, well, there's no talent, but even a master of something shouldn't say, I know I'm right.

• 1:24:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:33Jocko Willink?

  Very, very, very seldom.

• 1:24:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:35Jocko Willink?

  Very seldom.

• 1:24:36Speaker 01

  Man, especially that right there. I know I'm right. There's a difference between like, I know this is true or I know this.

• 1:24:42Jocko Willink?

  How about this? I think this is true.

• 1:24:45Speaker 01

  Oh, okay. Well, I'm talking like, like.

• 1:24:47Jocko Willink?

  Because you're going next level.

• 1:24:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay. So.

• 1:24:50Jocko Willink?

  Okay, yeah, if you wanna say.

• 1:24:51Speaker 01

  Factual like, like he was there. He was, that person was there at that location. Like, I know that that's true. Like, that's different than saying, I know I'm right about this, you know? I know I'm right. I know. Yeah, no, you have never said that.

• 1:25:04Jocko Willink?

  Meanwhile, this guy is saying it.

• 1:25:08Jocko Willink?

  And by the way, you know, this is like starting to get into the, hey, everyone is against me.

• 1:25:17Jocko Willink?

  Not only that, every, like the whole world, everyone that I, that I deal with, they all don't listen to me. What is wrong with everyone else? Right? This isn't even like, hey, look, you and I had a little disagreement. I'm gonna take ownership of it and just say it's my fault. No, this is everyone.

• 1:25:37Jocko Willink?

  Continuing on, I feel the majority of people see me as lesser, not worthy of respect or listening to even though, listening, even though I use such obvious logic.

• 1:25:52Jocko Willink?

  Now, this is, this is where I start to feel like sympathy, right? Like, cuz now you got this bad, low self-esteem, low self-opinion. And when you see yourself as lesser, then you start to overcompensate for it. Many people start to overcompensate. And, you know, they start to try and act like, they start to say things like, I use obvious logic.

• 1:26:21Jocko Willink?

  There's a whole genre of people who like to use the terms, facts, logic. And, and, and, and so when they say, you know what, Jaco? Look, I come at people with facts and logic and sometimes it just pisses them off. And what they don't, you know what I mean? Yes, sir, I do. It's that, it's the thing that, it's one of the things that, that you say you refer back to a lot, which is when someone says, you know, hey, I'm just that type of person, you just have to deal with it. They feel the same way about saying, look, I just deal in facts and logic. And, you know, people just need to, people can't accept it sometimes.

• 1:27:02Jocko Willink?

  And, and what are you gonna say? Well, you know, lies are better, or it's one of those, it's kinda like you put yourself on a, in a, in a, in a position of authority, right? Listen, I like to use facts and logic. Yeah, it's like irrefutable. Yeah, I, I use facts and logic and other people are just emotional and crazy and obviously everyone should just listen to me. So that's kinda, that's kind of a, a little bit of that tonality here.

• 1:27:28Jocko Willink?

  So it continues, "These people," and by the way, "people" is in quotes.

• 1:27:35Jocko Willink?

  I'm not kidding, "people" is in quotes, "these people," as if they're sub-humans. Yes, sir. "These people continuously try to exercise their power over me defiantly." An extreme, and then it's kind of a weirdly worded sentence. "An extreme, non-influential presence, even with logic, tact, and respectfulness." So he's talking about himself. "No one wants to listen to me."

• 1:28:03Jocko Willink?

  So, saying that you have tact, respectfulness, and logic. I mean, this is, this is, there's no ownership about the message, about the delivery, about the tonality, about the attitude. Everything is everyone else's fault. And by the way, like, this is one of those things where if he was talking about, you know, I got this one department, and the two senior people in the department, they have a real, then you start thinking, okay, well, you know, maybe they, maybe they got some ego, and maybe you need a massage, or you know, work through that. This is everyone. This is, we're talking about, you know, everyone that I'm interacting with doesn't listen to me, they disrespect me.

• 1:28:43Jocko Willink?

  It continues on, "People just refuse to even respectfully move out of the way when I'm trying to get around them. Not even strangers, people I live with." This, this statement.

• 1:28:54Jocko Willink?

  First of all, why not move around other people, right? That's first of all. Second of all, you ever hear when someone says, "Oh,

• 1:29:01Jocko Willink?

  I was thinking about buying a Corvette, and now everywhere I look, I see Corvettes?" Yeah.

• 1:29:09Jocko Willink?

  And this is the same thing, where he feels disrespected. Now, anytime anybody's in his way, it's there, straight up disrespecting him.

• 1:29:21Jocko Willink?

  Continues on, "I don't understand what it is about me that most people don't respect. Everyone seems to have the attitude to defy or oppose everything I say, no matter the circumstance, whether I'm trying my best to lead, give advice, etc. People won't listen to me. They won't get behind me. I lack so much influence, it's not funny. I try, but to no avail. What do you think?"

• 1:29:46Jocko Willink?

  So,

• 1:29:50Jocko Willink?

  here's what I think to this individual.

• 1:29:56Jocko Willink?

  Stop trying so hard. Stop trying so hard to lead. Stop trying so hard to influence. Stop trying so hard to give advice to everybody. Leadership starts with following people. That's where leadership starts.

• 1:30:18Jocko Willink?

  I would say, assessing what I'm reading,

• 1:30:23Jocko Willink?

  that you lack real, true confidence. Real, true confidence. You have some false bravado that makes you say, "It's obvious and I'm logical." That's not real. I think you lack, and the lack of confidence comes through all over this thing. And so does the overcompensation. So, oddly enough, let me tell you something. Start training jiu-jitsu. Strange thing to say, right? Strange thing to say. Start lifting weights. Those are two things. I'm gonna say, start training jiu-jitsu, start lifting weights. Why? Because you lack confidence. And those things will start to give you confidence.

• 1:31:05Jocko Willink?

  Start listening to people. Instead of always feeling like you need to give your two cents, start listening to people. It actually takes confidence to listen. I write about that in Leadership Strategy and Tactics. It takes extreme, like, confidence to accept other people's ideas. That takes the highest level of confidence. And if you don't know that, then you're constantly trying to show that you don't need to listen to their ideas. So, start listening to other people. Start trying to support their plans, instead of trying to force your great ideas down everyone's throats. Because right now, you don't have a relationship with anybody. All you do is you're constantly outbound to people, "Do this, do that." It's always about you.

• 1:31:48Jocko Willink?

  So start following other people, start supporting other people. It takes confidence, it takes true confidence to follow. It takes true confidence to support other people. And right now, you don't have that kind of confidence. You don't have that kind of humility, and so you act arrogant. And that's, that right there is probably why no one listens to you. Because you act arrogant. So force yourself to be humble, force yourself to listen, force yourself to follow, and over time you will start to be appreciated. And when people start to appreciate that, you and the way you behave, then people will start to listen to you.

• 1:32:25Jocko Willink?

  And then eventually, you can, you will be followed by people.

• 1:32:31Jocko Willink?

  And all that right there starts off with you taking ownership of your shortfalls, instead of blaming everyone else. Because that's exactly what this whole thing is. And if you want to go through life blaming everyone else for everything that doesn't go your way, then you actually have no power over it. And you'll just continue in this situation forever. But if you want actually take ownership of it, you can fix the shortfalls, which are yours. They're your shortfalls. And then you can become eventually the leader that you want to be. Otherwise, you continue down this path of blaming everyone else, not

• 1:33:14Jocko Willink?

  changing yourself, and you will continue to be not listened to, not respected.

• 1:33:21Speaker 01

  Bro, this is like, this is an extreme case.

• 1:33:25Jocko Willink?

  It's an extreme case. It's an extreme case. And I, I, I, I really hope, I mean, I truly hope that this individual is really listening.

• 1:33:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:39Jocko Willink?

  Because the way that this individual feels about everyone else, it's gonna be really, Jock was an idiot.

• 1:33:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:44Jocko Willink?

  Another one of those people.

• 1:33:47Speaker 01

  Those people, yeah.

• 1:33:48Jocko Willink?

  Won't listen to my logic.

• 1:33:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I

• 1:33:51Jocko Willink?

  And it's it makes that actually honestly, it makes me sad. It makes me sad to see someone in this state.

• 1:33:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:57Jocko Willink?

  It does.

• 1:33:58Speaker 01

  Well, that and I don't want to come off like, oh, this is an extreme case like I'm this like expert. But I will say that I think we all are in the same boat.

• 1:34:06Jocko Willink?

  But did you just say that? Speaking of arrogance, geez.

• 1:34:09Speaker 01

  I think we're all in the same boat to say, we know what this is. Like, we know people like this all the time. Nah, he asked like, you know, this, I'm not like disparaging fitness people at all. But you ever had an extreme fitness person where if you ate some bubble gum? They'd be like, you know how much sugar is in that bubble gum? The thing is, Brad, that's all true. All that facts, all those facts and logic and all this stuff. Oh, yeah, they're not gonna land though, because, Brad. Okay, so I used to, I used to get into not arguments, but little things with my brother where he'd, he'd every once in a while, he's not an extreme case. But every once in a while, he'll bust out some debate stuff, you know, out of nowhere, right? Well, you know how someone will say something and they're, they're just talking casually?

• 1:34:53Speaker 01

  And then you'll be like, hey, what you said there's not right and maybe all this stuff, right? Yeah, no one likes that. No one likes that. You, no matter how correct, no matter. So what, what I wound up telling him to, to try to sum up the whole thing, I said, what you're saying is right. But what you're doing is wrong. And so it's like, there's another level to it, you know, like all this facts and logic, whatever.

• 1:35:12Jocko Willink?

  Wait, you told that to your brother?

• 1:35:13Speaker 01

  Yes. Like when you, when you

• 1:35:15Jocko Willink?

  Wait, you guys were in a debate of some kind?

• 1:35:17Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:35:18Jocko Willink?

  Or you were just giving a general sort of overview of his existence?

• 1:35:21Speaker 01

  I was scolding him for getting people into debates all the time. You know, like if me and you were talking, he's listening. And like, there was this time, um, I think this is what prompted it. Where me and Terry were in, and we were just talking about kids, you know, just kind of raising kids. And we're like doing this and this, and he was sort of listening and kind in the conversation, but I was talking to. And he was, and we're talking about, um, something, I forget exactly what it was, but something about like, oh, if you do this, this will create this response with the kid. And then we're like, hmm, but what if it had the reverse response or whatever? Then he chimed in with something like, oh, no, it would have this initial response. And I'm like, well, but you it could stand to reason that look, they might respond like this, you know, kind of just just talking though, like, isn't it interesting kind of thing?

• 1:36:06Speaker 01

  And then meanwhile, I'm talking to Terry, by the way, and facilitating Jade's comments, but I'm more talking to Terry. And then he then he interrupted and goes, no, no, there's studies about this and that. And then I'm like, everyone's kind of like paused and was like, oh, dude, he's really aggressive right now. He even said afterwards, he's like, no, I'm sorry, that came off whatever.

• 1:36:23Jocko Willink?

  He likes to do that.

• 1:36:24Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, big time. And that's why why I wound up, when I say scolding, it's like, brother, it's your brother. So it's not even scolding, but nonetheless, it's, yeah, like what you're saying, regardless of what it is, like if you if you if you have all these

• 1:36:39Speaker 01

  logic, irrefutable logic and facts and all this stuff like, brother, that's all correct. But what you're doing is wrong.

• 1:36:45Jocko Willink?

  What what what? There's one thing that really bothers me about this is I actually know 100%, which I just talked about not saying. I know that an individual in this situation can turn it around.

• 1:36:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, so.

• 1:37:01Jocko Willink?

  I know they can turn it around. There's a in Leadership Strategy and Tactics, I have a section called Conform to Influence. It just talks about like, hey, basically what you just said, you know, when the fitness person's like, hey, you should work out every day at four o'clock in the morning. And people are like, hey, dude, I'm not going to listen to you because you're barking at me. You're offensive to me. You know, I had that I had this question at the muster in Australia from the female that was like, hey, I love health, I care about health, I'm working out every morning, I'm trying to get everyone motivated. I'm telling them that they shouldn't be eating what they're eating for lunch. I'm telling them they should come work out with me afterwards. And she's basically not part of the crew.

• 1:37:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:41Jocko Willink?

  They're all just looking at her thinking, just be quiet. And I said, why don't you form some relationships with the people so that they start to listen to you? So that's another kind of overlying or or underlying tone here is you don't have relationships with anybody. Why are they going to listen to anything that you say?

• 1:37:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:00Jocko Willink?

  Form relationships with people. How do you do that? You listen to them, you follow them, you support them.

• 1:38:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. That is like you say that you can recover from it and that I yeah, but it's not gonna be the next day, man.

• 1:38:13Jocko Willink?

  It's no, no. Yeah, yeah, for sure. He's got a, he's got a little campaign. He's got a campaign ahead of him. Yeah, big campaign.

• 1:38:19Speaker 01

  Because the same way that you look at the Corvette thing that you did and you're always seeing the Corvettes everywhere. And so it's like this kind of pattern of thought, right? Where now he looks at everyone as like, oh, I just can't wait. Like it's almost like he's waiting for them, anticipating them to disrespect them or whatever. And that's just how. But the same, it's a two way street. People are now waiting for him to say some BS to them now. He's gonna roll in the room and people are like, here comes whatever with this crap.

• 1:38:45Jocko Willink?

  Let me throw a hypothesis at you. The reason I think it might be a little not as hard as you think it would be is because I bet people don't really have these horrible feelings about him. I bet they're just kinda like, you know what I mean? They're just kinda like, oh yeah. Like when they say, oh, you know, I don't, when, when they say to them, I don't think we're gonna do it that way. He's thinking, see, they don't listen. And they're really just thinking, well, it seems like there's a problem with that. You know, it seems like that'd be a little logistically complicated, you know? And he doesn't hear that. He just hears, they hate me and they don't listen to me.

• 1:39:18Speaker 01

  That is possible.

• 1:39:19Jocko Willink?

  So it might not be, you know, I, I got, I get asked sometimes, you know, well, I'm a, you know, I'm a female and, and the guys are thinking this, or I'm a man, I'm working with these women and they're thinking that. And I go, you know, who probably is thinking the most about being a man in that room? You. You who's probably thinking the most about being a woman? You know, I've been, I've had female leaders come and brief me over and over again. And I'm not thinking, oh, it's a woman. I'm gonna see it from this perspective. No, are there some people that do that? Sure. But most people are like, oh, what's, what, what is she talking about? Yeah. So there's a good chance that, that some of this is just in his head. If some of it is just in his head and the person that's thinking about this the most is actually him.

• 1:40:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's possible.

• 1:40:04Jocko Willink?

  It's also possible that.

• 1:40:07Speaker 01

  Everyone does.

• 1:40:07Jocko Willink?

  Well, I, this, this much I can promise you, these people. are not going home and thinking about him all night.

• 1:40:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:15Jocko Willink?

  I can promise you that's not happening. Maybe two of them are.

• 1:40:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:18Jocko Willink?

  But he's going home and thinking about them all day, all night. He's thinking about how much they disrespect him, how much. They're not thinking about that. They don't move out of his way. He, somebody, you know, he walks down the hallway and wants to get into the, the, the, the freaking refrigerator room. And someone's in the way and, and you know, they kind of like, like go first.

• 1:40:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:39Jocko Willink?

  They, they never think about that moment again. He's dwelling on it. Don't dwell on it, man. No one's thinking about it. Just be, just be cool. Listen to other people. Be humble.

• 1:40:50Speaker 01

  That's rough too. Like if you, if that's in your mind, like people just won't even get out of my way when I'm trying to go around them. It's like, whoa, bro, that's like some sensitive, like. Bro, that's where you're finding this, right? You're finding Corvettes everywhere, man.

• 1:41:03Jocko Willink?

  Finding Corvettes everywhere you look is a Corvette. Even Corvettes that aren't Corvettes start looking like Corvettes. You know what I'm saying? You start seeing.

• 1:41:12Speaker 01

  Little Fierros.

• 1:41:13Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, Fierros looking like, yes, unfortunately. They start looking like.

• 1:41:19Speaker 01

  Yeah. Brother, and yeah, uh, the, to me, as far as me goes, that's true. But at the same time, everyone could know this about this guy. Everyone could have this like notion of this guy that this is who this guy is already. He's so annoying. Every little thing that I do, he's, he has some advice to make it different or better, you know, like.

• 1:41:45Jocko Willink?

  Even those guys, you don't think about them when they're not there.

• 1:41:49Speaker 01

  Well, yeah.

• 1:41:50Jocko Willink?

  Right? Even those guys.

• 1:41:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:52Jocko Willink?

  You, when they show up, you're like, oh, here comes Billy.

• 1:41:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, with his.

• 1:41:55Jocko Willink?

  And somebody named Bill, by the way, hit me up on social media and says, why is all the bad guys named Bill? Okay. So let's say Darren. You know, you got, you got little Darren coming in and you go, oh, here's Darren with his loud mouth. He's got his own ideas.

• 1:42:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:09Jocko Willink?

  When Darren leaves, I'm not thinking about Darren. It's not driving me crazy. I'm not writing, I'm not taking a year. He took a year to formulate this email. A year to formulate. So he's thinking about this all the time for a year.

• 1:42:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:22Jocko Willink?

  To try and articulate it the right way, which by the way, according to him, he did. He did articulate it the right way. He says.

• 1:42:32Jocko Willink?

  I've been working on asking you this question for over a year and this is the best way I think I can articulate it. This is it, the best way.

• 1:42:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, man, it's hot. Okay, so there's this.

• 1:42:45Jocko Willink?

  I thought you were gonna comment at least on the fact that I told him to start training jujitsu.

• 1:42:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I have nothing to add. Yes, sir.

• 1:42:51Jocko Willink?

  Start training jujitsu, isn't it? It's a real thing.

• 1:42:54Speaker 01

  Real thing.

• 1:42:55Jocko Willink?

  Help your self-confidence.

• 1:42:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:56Jocko Willink?

  Hang around with some other people. Get choked out. Get arm locked. Start lifting weights.

• 1:43:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, and maybe.

• 1:43:02Jocko Willink?

  Start getting in shape.

• 1:43:03Speaker 01

  Maybe one of those results, one of the many results of that might be, but you won't be compelled to try to correct everybody everywhere you go. Like, okay, so sometimes like, I wanna say all the time, if people aren't asking for like advice, not all the time, sometimes it works, but if they're not asking for advice, you can't just, just unsolicited be correcting people.

• 1:43:24Jocko Willink?

  How often are you walking around just standing by and hoping that everyone gives you advice on stuff? There's not a lot of people like that.

• 1:43:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it's really rare, but there is a time, okay, back to my brother Jade, he was stuck in sand with his truck, on Kauai. So he's, he wasn't stuck stuck, but he was, he was getting stuck, right? And we could all see him, he was kinda in the distance there and he's started, starting to get stuck. And there's all kinds of techniques to get unstuck in sand, all kinds of techniques, right? But there's a, a protocol, it's pretty standard or whatever. So he's beginning to get stuck and our other friend, Richard, who is he the most tactful guy in the world?

• 1:44:01Jocko Willink?

  Sounds like a no.

• 1:44:02Speaker 01

  At every single moment of his life, maybe, maybe not, and then at this particular moment, he wasn't. So I see Richard walking over there about to go give Jade some advice on how to not get stuck, right?

• 1:44:16Jocko Willink?

  Is he qualified to give advice and is Jade, should Jade be taking advice at this point?

• 1:44:21Speaker 01

  Okay, well, that's another question. To me, if you're about to get stuck, if it really seems like you're about to get stuck and someone's gonna offer you advice to not get stuck, yeah, I think logically, right? You should take the advice, but we're dealing with the real world here. So Jade's about to get stuck. Jade has a protocol in his mind. Right? He's not like unaware of this protocol, but he has it in his mind, but according to, uh, what, what seemed like, what, what it looked like was in Richard's mind, he didn't. So Richard's aggressively running over there aggressively, going over there to give him some unsolicited advice, which he obviously needs, right?

• 1:44:58Speaker 01

  And we can't hear any of the advice. We can't hear it. We only see the body movements, right? So you see, you know, aggressively, Richard's telling him whatever he's telling him with his hand movements and all this stuff. You know, Jade's like, no reaction. You know the kind when you're real annoyed, but you have no reaction. You're just like kind of looking down or whatever. And he's like doing his own protocol. You know, Richard's like coaching him aggressively, not landing at all, falling on deaf ears, as it were. And every time, it's like every maybe five, 10 seconds, Richard would like turn around and throw his hands up as if to say, this guy's not listening to me. And he did that maybe three, four times, right? So you could tell it was not going good over there. So I'm like, all right, so we're all watching it. Me, my other brother, and we're kind of laughing a little bit because we see the scenario.

• 1:45:42Speaker 01

  We see Jade getting stucker and stucker and Richard, you know, we just see the whole thing playing out. So later on, we kind of talked to Jade, kind of teasing him, right? Like, bro, why don't you just, just like listen or whatever? And he went into that side of the whole deal where it's like, man, you can't like, it's hard to listen when someone just like jumps in your whole stressful situation, offering you all this like whack advice in this whack kind of way.

• 1:46:09Jocko Willink?

  There's ways to deliver advice in critical situations like that. And even then, most likely an indirect approach is advised.

• 1:46:17Speaker 01

  And that's if, okay, and in this situation to him, or it doesn't matter what it looked like to us. It looked, what it looked like to Richard is like, oh, this guy obviously needs my advice right now, obviously. In Jade's mind, he's like, I know, I've done this before.

• 1:46:31Jocko Willink?

  So, so, so I had a conversation with somebody on EF Online the other day.

• 1:46:37Jocko Willink?

  I was saying, look, in this situation, you, you should approach with an indirect approach.

• 1:46:44Jocko Willink?

  And then as I'm, I'm talking to her, I can see that she's not.

• 1:46:50Jocko Willink?

  She's kind of annoyed and she actually was like a logic and facts based thing. Look, I, why can't I just say the logic and facts of what's going on and then have everyone just get on board with the program was the kind of was the thought process, right? And I said, you know, I can see that this bothers you because what you're saying from your perspective is, look, I know the facts. It doesn't make any sense that I waste all this time trying to, you know, take this indirect approach to try and get someone to understand the facts so we can change the direction that we're going or adjust the plan accordingly. That's just dumb. I said, I can see that on your face. Here's the thing.

• 1:47:34Jocko Willink?

  If you take a direct, which is why we're having this conversation, by the way, you take a direct approach and it doesn't work. So you don't adjust the plan. I'm suggesting you take an indirect approach, which will actually work. And yes, it will take a little more time upfront, but the result will be positive. So if Richard would have taken an indirect approach and walked over and he would be, why should I have to tell Jade that? And why should I have to take, I could just tell him, hey, you need to put it reverse rocket or whatever advice he had to give him. If he would have gone over and said, you know, uh, hey, do you, do you want me to tell you where your tires are at or something like that? Like just a nice, just a little indirect approach. Jump on his team.

• 1:48:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, just jump on his team. And then all of a sudden Jade's mind is open. All of a sudden they're literally on the same team just by saying, hey, you want me to put some weight on the front for you? Or you know, whatever. Hey, um, you know, do you want me to throw some extra whatever, you whatever you do to get on the team and then you're, you're going to win in the end. And the indirect approach, which seems like a big pain in the ass out of the gate. Oh my God, I can't believe I have to do this and play this game. I have to play this game. Like, yeah, listen to what I'm talking to you about. Play the game because you will actually get accomplished what you want to have get accomplished as opposed to, well, you know. I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna take a direct approach.

• 1:49:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:49:02Jocko Willink?

  To tell them what's up. People aren't ready to receive it, and so it's useless.

• 1:49:07Speaker 01

  Oh, it's so true. Like you, and I'm thinking back to the tire, the getting stuck in the sand scenario too, where, and here's the thing, to do it, to make it matters worse, like, it's, you know, it's reasonable to assume that how Richard came up to him, wasn't like, hey, like, we, we got a problem, let's do this. It wasn't that. It was like, hey, dummy, stuck in the sand, dummy. Like, you don't know what you're doing, kind of, kind of, I'm not, I'm not sure what he said, but it seemed like that was the approach, right?

• 1:49:35Jocko Willink?

  Not only the direct approach, it was just openly hostile.

• 1:49:38Speaker 01

  It was openly hostile.

• 1:49:39Jocko Willink?

  Openly hostile. So now you get immediate defensiveness. I'm not listening to anything you say. I would rather get stuck.

• 1:49:44Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:49:45Jocko Willink?

  Than listen to you.

• 1:49:46Speaker 01

  That was literally like what I felt. Like, it seems like Jade right now would way rather get stuck and then listen to Richard right now. And quite frankly, I don't blame him. The way Richard was like throwing up his hands like, oh my gosh, you're so dumb, kind of a, kind of a thing. Like, again, I didn't hear what he said, but that's what, that's what his body language was saying. I'll tell you that. So, man, I kind of, I felt him. I felt him. So, yeah, man.

• 1:50:09Jocko Willink?

  Let's hope that this guy here can actually listen to what we're saying. I mean it in the most positive possible way. I think you can get out of this situation, but you gotta take ownership of what's going on. And you gotta make some real changes.

• 1:50:26Jocko Willink?

  Hit us back up. Hit me back up on that. That'd be cool. I'd like to hear how it all works out.

• 1:50:31Speaker 01

  There is one where-

• 1:50:32Jocko Willink?

  To hear a positive feedback.

• 1:50:34Speaker 01

  Jordan Peterson, I think, it was on Joe Rogan, you know how they make those like, um, Jordan Peterson versus Jordan?

• 1:50:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:50:40Speaker 01

  Okay, so, it, what he said got, was part of, um, it got made into that, right? Part of it, it did. So, he was like, um, he was like- Everybody's rejecting you. Everybody's rejecting you. It's you, right? Kind of thing. And it's funny because it's like the, the tone that he said it, but that's kind of irrefutable logic right there. You know, where it's like, man, you're kind of like the girl, the, it's a joke, I think. I'm pretty sure it's a joke. The girl who goes to the doctor and says, hey, like, my, my finger hurts or whatever. You know, like when I touch here, like my finger hurts or whatever. And then the doctor goes, okay, the, the, the solution is don't touch there. You know, kind of thing. Bro, that's like, it's real obvious to people, you know?

• 1:51:24Jocko Willink?

  It's the tortured genius that Leif talks about in Extreme Ownership.

• 1:51:27Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:51:27Jocko Willink?

  Which is, hey, look, I'm right. And everyone else just doesn't see the brilliance of my, you know, what I'm doing. No, no one sees how brilliant I am.

• 1:51:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:34Jocko Willink?

  No one sees how brilliant I am.

• 1:51:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're too dumb.

• 1:51:37Jocko Willink?

  And yeah, it's just horrible for me. And it's like, no, actually, maybe you're not right.

• 1:51:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, brother. At the very least, something's not right.

• 1:51:46Jocko Willink?

  At the very least, your approach is wrong.

• 1:51:48Speaker 01

  Root. All right. Next question. Is it necessary to explain the why of what you're doing as a leader? If you're not ever asked why? My varsity athletes never question anything as I assume they're, they either think that I'll, it'll be disrespectful or because they simply think they need to follow my directions.

• 1:52:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, they should absolutely know why. And people on your team do not need to ask you why for you to tell them. You should tell them why they're doing what they're doing. That way they can lead. That way they have a deeper understanding of what they're doing. That way they know how to act and what to do when you're not there, which you won't always be there. And when you do that, they actually learn, they are actually learning how to lead themselves because they start to understand the importance of knowing why. So, you know, this, this, this, this happens to me. I mean, there's a lot of people that have worked for me over the years that I didn't need to tell them why to do anything. Bro, they were ready to rock and roll. Like they did not care.

• 1:52:53Jocko Willink?

  I mean, you think JP ever looked at me and said, hey? Hey sir, can you explain to me why you want me to do that? No, he's like JP, machine gun nest, attack. He's attacking like by the, by the time I get out of my mouth, he's going. So there was no, there's no reason, there's, he's never gonna ask me why. You know, at least not back then, you know, now that we work together all the time. If I'm like, hey, I think we should do this, he'd say, well, why, why do you want me to do that? Because he's, you know, he's running FTXs and he knows what's going on more than I do. So if I tell him to do something or I ask him to do something, he might say, well, why do you want me to do that? What's the effect you're looking for? So it's different now. But my point is much like a varsity athlete, you know, that respects their coach and likes their coach and wants to do a good job.

• 1:53:36Jocko Willink?

  Well, when JP was 21 years old, he wasn't asking me why to do anything. And you know, for that matter, that was, that was true for a lot of people that have worked for me over the years. Like they trust me and they don't, they don't need to know why they're doing what they're doing. They're gonna do it. They're gonna do it to the best of their ability. That doesn't mean that I don't tell them why, because I absolutely should. Cause if you don't know why you're doing what you're doing, you can't lead decentralized command, doesn't work. Can't make decisions in the field. So even with football athletes, it's cool that they're totally just on board. But you should still tell them why, because it's a good principle to follow in any leadership situation.

• 1:54:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, especially as a coach too, man, that'll like supercharge like the learning process, I think, or the training process. Like even like in jujitsu, there's good examples, like like hip escape or shrimping, right? You know, when you first start or whatever, if you're just doing it across the mat, you're getting taught how to do it and all this stuff. And you're kind of like, like, I don't really get why we're doing it right now. Later you find out, yeah, you just do it because everyone else is doing it. What are you gonna do? A new martial arts class and you're gonna start asking them.

• 1:54:39Jocko Willink?

  That's actually an excellent example is if you know why you're learning the hip escape, then you do it with better intent and no one could tell just by watching you do it, whether what your intent was or not. Even though they might get a little scent of your intent, but. It's one of those situations. If you know why you're doing it, you're gonna do it better. Just like if you're coaching football and you got guys running a certain thing. They're not gonna ask you why, but if you tell them why, they know why they're doing it, they're gonna do, they're gonna do it better.

• 1:55:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, so true, the football thing, because in football you do kind of some, some oddball things if you, if you just see it on the surface. You know, there's a thing called the grass drills, right? Where you just, basically you get your feet, like you kind of run in place real fast, like kind of a little bit wider stance. And then you like, basically you sprawl, you know, yeah. And, you know, you hit the ground, you get back up real quick and then you, and they do, there's all these drills you do, right? They face the ball this way, then you turn, and then you come back and you're chopping your feet the whole time, right? So on, on the surface, I, I remember when I was like little doing that, I remember thinking, oh yeah, this is just like conditioning. Really, like moving your whole body, conditioning, getting back up. But after a while, you're like, nah, because if you get knocked down, which you will, like, bro, football, you can get knocked down like three times and within like

• 1:55:56Speaker 01

  15 seconds, you know, like, the faster you can get up and start running again, it's like, bro, that's a good skill to have, you know, kind of thing. So if you're drilling that every single day, every single, every single day, not only do you get better and quicker at that, it becomes way more instinctual. So, okay, then there's a lot more to it, obviously. But man, if someone was explaining that to you every time you're doing it, like even just yelling it out, just calling it out as it's happening, like, good, this is gonna get you guys up quick when you get knocked down on a play, but, you know, just yelling it out, who cares? Whatever, you don't have to sit them down and say, this is why you're doing these guys, you don't have to say that necessarily, I'm saying in a football situation. But if you're going through that training with that in your mind, like, oh, I know why I'm doing this, but you're gonna, you're gonna charge that thing. And you're gonna problem solve better while you're training, yeah, man, it's, yeah. Kind of goes deep on that one.

• 1:56:43Jocko Willink?

  I used, when I was coaching a lot of MMA fighters, I would always be telling them why they're doing a drill. And it made me think of when you were saying, you know, even if they're just yelling at you, you know? I'd be like, this is the end of the round, this is where you're gonna, you know what I mean?

• 1:56:55Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:56:55Jocko Willink?

  If you're down here, this is where you're gonna have to get back up, this is where the fight gets won, like, you know? Cause you know, some fighters, if they get taken down, and they're a striker and they're going against a good grappler, if they get taken down, they're gonna have to get back up to win the fight. And so when they know that, you can see it compute in their brain, whereas if I'm just saying, no, get back up. No, so tell people why. We think one more question.

• 1:57:21Speaker 01

  Sir, I've listened to all of the podcast before asking this question. Can you please explain how do you deal or have dealt with your insecurities? Thank you very much for your help.

• 1:57:37Jocko Willink?

  I guess broadly fundamentally, what I'm going to do with my insecurities is I'm going to confront them. I'm going to put them out there. I'm going to own them.

• 1:57:46Jocko Willink?

  I'm going to own them. I'm going to own my insecurities. If I had to think of examples of situations where insecurities came into play for me. One.

• 1:57:59Jocko Willink?

  I was going through Bud's basic seal training and there was an event called pool competency, where you are wearing your underwater breathing apparatus, your scuba gear, and they do all these horrible things to you and it's a very hard evolution. And I failed it.

• 1:58:18Jocko Willink?

  And I was confident going into it because I'd kind of done well. Most of the water things underwater, not tying, life savings, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. I had done well. I was comfortable in the water. And so I was, when I failed this thing, which was, which was, I was freaked out, you know? And because people would fail pool comp and get kicked out of Bud's. You know, it's a nightmare for me. So I fail. And by the way, if you fail, so you take it on Friday. And then if you fail, you take it again on Monday. And if you fail again, you're rolled back. And then once you rolled back, now you fail something else and you're gone.

• 1:59:00Jocko Willink?

  So it's a nightmare for me. I mean, I'm, I'm completely, I've gone from confidence to insecurity about this thing. So what did I do? Me and a couple of the other guys, we, I don't know why the instructors let us do this. They could probably get in trouble for it, but they, they let us take the scuba gear and use it in the dip tank, which is just a big bucket full of, I mean, a big container full of water, probably four feet deep and it's probably. Eight feet long by four feet wide. So it's just a small where it's where you where you take fresh water and you put things to clean it. You put in fresh. We call it a dip tank. So they they let us fill the dip tank up with water, totally unsupervised. And we went in there and we pool comped each other.

• 1:59:45Jocko Willink?

  So we ripped each other's masks off, beat each other to hell and just trashed ourselves. And by the time I went on Monday, I was that insecurity that I had was now gone because we had been so freaking harsh to each other. That by the time I was rolling in, I was like, yeah, this isn't even insecure. I'm like, bring it. Go bring what you got. I'm ready. So that's a that's one way to overcome or that I look at as something I was insecure nervous about. Right? How am I gonna overcome it? I'm gonna attack it. I'm gonna I'm gonna go straight into that thing, into that insecurity. Uh, another thing I was thinking about was kind of funny. Was I was like at a bar. You know,

• 2:00:31Jocko Willink?

  when I was young and single and whatever, hanging out, you know, having some beverages. And I'm chatting with some girl that I met. And, you know, as we're talking, we're just kind of just talking, having a good time, whatever. And she's like, oh, you know, what do you do? You know, what do you do? Well, I'm a dental hygienist. She's a dental hygienist. And I was like, oh, that's cool.

• 2:00:55Jocko Willink?

  And then she says like,

• 2:00:58Jocko Willink?

  something like, you know, um,

• 2:01:03Jocko Willink?

  we could take care of that gap in your teeth.

• 2:01:08Jocko Willink?

  She says that to me and like without missing a beat. I'm like, are you serious? I didn't know that you could expand gaps. How much bigger could you make it?

• 2:01:19Jocko Willink?

  And, you know, like she was, she was like totally, I don't know if the word stoked, but she realized that this whatever, you know, this gap between my teeth, which some people might have as a big insecurity. Like, oh, you know, cover your mouth. Um, it was like, it's fine. Like, there it is. I'm making fun of it, basically. Make so that's, I think.

• 2:01:43Jocko Willink?

  That is the bottom line when you have some kind of in something that you're insecure about. Well, if it's something that you can take control of, cool, then attack it and get good at it. You know, if you're, if you're insecure about talking in front of people, cool, attack that problem and get better at it. If you're insecure about, you know, confrontations with people, start training jujitsu. If you're insecure, whatever, whatever you're insecure about, do it more. If you're insecure, if you think, oh, every time I write an email, I feel like I'm, you know, it's, it looks like junk. Cool, write more, get better at writing. So there's insecurities that you have like that, that you can attack. If there's something that you can't change or that you can't control, then just get it out there and have fun with it. As far as I'm concerned.

• 2:02:27Jocko Willink?

  You know?

• 2:02:30Jocko Willink?

  Make, does that make sense? Is that a bad answer?

• 2:02:32Speaker 01

  No, that's a good answer. In fact, that's a, that's a very clever response to the dental hygienist.

• 2:02:39Jocko Willink?

  The dental hygienist wanting to fix the gap in my teeth. So that, I think that's good for questions, you know? And hey, it's a

• 2:02:51Jocko Willink?

  interesting times right now. What is it? It's, it's April 2020. Lot of mayhem going on in the world. Everything from, well, we got viruses, you know, and it's tornadoes and just all kinds of things. And

• 2:03:11Jocko Willink?

  you know, as I look at what's going on, it's just a gentle reminder to everybody and maybe a not so gentle reminder that the world is a hard place.

• 2:03:23Jocko Willink?

  The world is a hard place and the world has, has no mercy. The world does not care. Nature does not care. Disease and disaster and viruses and violence. And this is the thing that you need to remember is that even time itself, even just time itself is picking you apart.

• 2:03:49Jocko Willink?

  Picking you apart slowly, every minute of every day. Time is taking you down.

• 2:03:56Jocko Willink?

  And if you stare at that stuff long enough, if you stare at those things long enough, then just like the sun, it,

• 2:04:07Jocko Willink?

  it'll blind you.

• 2:04:12Jocko Willink?

  And so I say, don't stare at it. Don't stare at those things. Don't let them possess your brain. Don't let them take over your mind. Because just like the sun can blind you, the sun also.

• 2:04:29Jocko Willink?

  The sun also gives us light.

• 2:04:32Jocko Willink?

  And it gives us warmth and it gives us life and those dreadful things in the world.

• 2:04:41Jocko Willink?

  They may win in the end and I can actually guarantee that time will.

• 2:04:52Jocko Willink?

  Time will win in the end, but.

• 2:04:57Jocko Willink?

  It's not going to win right now.

• 2:05:00Jocko Willink?

  So in the meantime.

• 2:05:05Jocko Willink?

  Make sure you live. Make sure you give it everything you got. Make sure you leave it all on the field.

• 2:05:13Jocko Willink?

  And live your life not blinded by the sun.

• 2:05:21Jocko Willink?

  But fueled by it.

• 2:05:26Jocko Willink?

  And I think that's all I've got for. Tonight.

• 2:05:32Jocko Willink?

  The Echo Charles. Speaking of fuel.

• 2:05:37Jocko Willink?

  I know we need some clean fuel for our undertakings.

• 2:05:41Speaker 01

  What is it? Clean fuel, no excuses. And wait, there's something else to do, right?

• 2:05:46Jocko Willink?

  There is something else.

• 2:05:48Speaker 01

  Alright, what is it, Jocko?

• 2:05:52Speaker 01

  Clean fuel, clean fuel, no excuses.

• 2:05:55Jocko Willink?

  That's a good one. You're missing one, apparently.

• 2:05:58Speaker 01

  Alright, well, hey, we're gonna revisit that last one another time, but in the meantime, what we can do is.

• 2:06:04Jocko Willink?

  You're probably forgetting the most important one. Maybe it's hard work.

• 2:06:07Speaker 01

  Alright, hard work.

• 2:06:11Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 2:06:12Jocko Willink?

  Maybe that's why you are reaching.

• 2:06:16Speaker 01

  Nonetheless, yes, hard work, clean fuel, no excuses. There you go. Origin, USA.

• 2:06:22Jocko Willink?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:06:23Speaker 01

  By the way, uh, but before we need to clean fuel, we're gonna do hard work, but it's better, in my opinion, to do hard work doing something that you enjoy.

• 2:06:33Jocko Willink?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:06:33Speaker 01

  And that's gonna benefit you, by the way. Explain why you're doing what you're doing.

• 2:06:38Jocko Willink?

  Something that gives you physical training, physical strength, physical stamina, and confidence.

• 2:06:45Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 2:06:45Jocko Willink?

  We're hoping that the Holmes goes out and starts training to get that confidence up.

• 2:06:48Speaker 01

  Capability across the board.

• 2:06:50Jocko Willink?

  Capability. Being more capable increases your confidence.

• 2:06:54Speaker 01

  Yes, sir, big time. So, we're training jujitsu, we're working out, working out and training jujitsu. Well, well, at this very moment, jujitsu is kept to a minimum. We'll say a minimum, really, which is the safe and right thing to do, by the way. Like, you'd think, like, that sounds debatable.

• 2:07:12Jocko Willink?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:07:12Speaker 01

  Right now.

• 2:07:13Jocko Willink?

  You know, we did that podcast with Andy. We did a grounded podcast with Andy and we, I forget when we recorded it, but like, we were talking about jujitsu and whatever, and people are like, "Your training is morally irresponsible" and stuff, and it's like-

• 2:07:28Speaker 01

  Were you guys trained?

• 2:07:29Jocko Willink?

  Well, for, well, we didn't, but I don't even remember what phase of, you know, all that was going on. Um, but yeah, so the bottom line is, you are correct. Right now, jujitsu training is kind of at a minimum.

• 2:07:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, big time.

• 2:07:44Jocko Willink?

  For everybody.

• 2:07:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's, and I don't wanna get too into like, what, you know, where, where we stand on like, the whole thing or whatever, but there's like, a big picture, small picture scenario going on in a, in a short term and long term scenario, kinda playing out, like it always does. Um, and like, I think like, if you're doing, okay, so, what, gee, use this term, like, falling on the right side of the fence of history or something like that, right? Where, okay, we're trying, this thing, we're just, we're ready for it to be done, this whole deal. Quarantine, all this stuff, we're ready for it to be done. So, there's certain things you can do and not do to kinda help facilitate the passing of this thing, and then there's things that kinda don't help the facilit, this help facilitating

• 2:08:30Speaker 01

  the passing of these things, and there's things you can do that-

• 2:08:36Speaker 01

  halt the passing of this thing.

• 2:08:38Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:08:39Speaker 01

  That jam us all up, right?

• 2:08:40Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:08:41Speaker 01

  So the question is, what are we doing?

• 2:08:43Jocko Willink?

  So try and do things that are gonna stop the

• 2:08:45Speaker 01

  Exactly, right? For yourself, for everybody, for everybody. But you know, the things like the short term, long term. Short term, you're gonna have to, you're gonna have to take a hit short term. You know what I mean? Small picture, jujitsu and a bunch of other stuff.

• 2:08:56Jocko Willink?

  I think my jujitsu is getting better, even when I'm not training, because I'm studying.

• 2:09:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's see, and there you go.

• 2:09:02Jocko Willink?

  Mental reps.

• 2:09:03Speaker 01

  Mitigating some, some stuff. But you know, I know the thing is, it's a two sided situation that has to be like it's, they're battling with each other and it's kind, it's kind of whack.

• 2:09:13Jocko Willink?

  It's a dichotomy.

• 2:09:14Speaker 01

  It's a dichotomy. Nonetheless, when we get back to jujitsu, if we weren't already in jujitsu and we're gonna start jujitsu, when we can, we're gonna get a gi, we're gonna get a rash guard. That's just the, that's sort of the uniform, really. Best gi in the world, Origin Gi.

• 2:09:29Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, it's just so everyone knows, hey, look, um, we make jujitsu gees, we make jeans, we make boots, right at this moment in time, April 2020, we actually have shifted to making face coverings is the term, right? Because the president and the CDC and the government has said to wear face coverings. So we started making face coverings. We actually shut down our other lines to make face coverings for people. So that's what's going on right now at originmaine.com. We will get back to manufacturing jeans, boots, t-shirts, the whole nine yards. There's still some stuff in stock as far as gees and stuff go, but right now that's

• 2:10:14Jocko Willink?

  what we're focused on is trying to get, help America get through the scenario that we're in right now. And so you can, you can check out those masks if you want them. We won't be making them for long, just because other people are starting to catch up. And so we, we were able to pivot very quickly because we have the entire supply chain right there. We own everything, we make everything. There's no, like, we have everything in house. So Pete and the team at Origin was able to really quickly start making these face coverings. And so. As other companies start to make, make them, we'll go back to making what we want to make. You know, no one wants to be in the business of making masks, right? But that's what the country needs. So that's what we're doing right now.

• 2:11:00Jocko Willink?

  If you want to get one of those, yeah, you can get them at originmaine.com. We're trying to make them as fast as we can. And so that's one way to help America get through this. They're not N95 masks, right? They're, they're what, they're what we can make, which is face coverings, which is what is in demand. You know, like I went to a meeting the other day on a construction site and you know what? You have to wear a face covering.

• 2:11:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:11:28Jocko Willink?

  So what am I wearing? I'm wearing an Origin face cover. That's what it's made for. It's not made for me to go and work in an ER. No, it's, it's made to show respect to someone else. Hey, look, I don't want to cough on you. I don't want, if I have it, which no one knows if you have it or not, because a lot of people are asymptomatic. So you wear this thing to protect the people around you. You know, strangers, normal people. And what you're doing there is you're going back to what you were saying earlier. You are doing your best to halt the, the disease so we can get back to normalcy. So if you want one of these masks, go to originmaine.com and you can get one there. Also, the, we have a bunch of supplements there. So if you're, and I know this is, you know, we've seen a huge spike in like milk, right? Because people don't want to go to the store.

• 2:12:13Jocko Willink?

  There's starting to be a shortage of food. If you get mulk, you know, if you can get mulk, which is good tasting protein. And we, we were selling a ton of mulk right now because people know that it's a good thing to have, you know, in your house because you can feed your kids, you can feed, you know, you could, I don't know. I don't want to make the claim that, you know, however you long you could survive on mulk only, but it's a great, it's a, it's a great thing to have in your house as, as food suppliers are getting shut down because of the virus or whatever. So we've been selling a ton of mulk. We've been selling a lot of, we sold out of. Of Cold War, which is like an immune system booster. We just got it back in stock. So that's been selling like crazy because it's got, you know, it's got things that help boost your immune

• 2:12:58Jocko Willink?

  system. Again, is this a, is this a Origin or is this a COVID fighter destroyer? No, it's just going to help your immune system. So people don't want to get sick right now. So that's been selling a lot, but that's what we're doing at Origin right now. It's, it's, you know, different. It's different times. Um, what else? What am I missing?

• 2:13:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:13:21Jocko Willink?

  I mean, the supplements, you know, the, the joint warfare, that's one thing that's going on right now. A lot of people are working out, you know, hardcore, you're going to need that joint warfare.

• 2:13:31Jocko Willink?

  Krill oil. So we got all that stuff still, but um, yeah. If, so if you want to check that stuff out, you can check that out. We're also like the, we're making some fitness, you know, like plyo boxes.

• 2:13:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:13:43Jocko Willink?

  We, we just started making plyo boxes. Why? Look, our goal is not to make plyo boxes. Here's the deal. America is sold out of plyo boxes right now. And so people want them because they're shifting to a home gym scenario.

• 2:13:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:13:58Jocko Willink?

  So we, we just started manufacturing those. So if you want to get a plyo box, you can go and well, we're doing what we can to help get through this situation. We just made a, another thing, which you saw the, the burden.

• 2:14:12Speaker 01

  The burden. Yeah.

• 2:14:14Jocko Willink?

  It's like a old, I know one's, it's what was it? It's like a kettlebell slash Bulgarian bag slash medicine ball slash. Any other slashes?

• 2:14:27Speaker 01

  Old boxing glove? I don't know.

• 2:14:29Jocko Willink?

  Old boxing glove. Yeah. So we got thing called the burden, which you're going to be able to use for kettlebell exercises. But it's made of leather. It's badass looking. We got to admit. So, yeah.

• 2:14:42Speaker 01

  Well, what do you can explain the history on now or the, you know?

• 2:14:45Jocko Willink?

  I mean, the long history is I have an idea. I had an idea, which I talked to Pete a while ago. We brainstormed of making something called the burden, which was something you could just carry. We could just carry the burden with you all the time. Right? So no matter what's happening, you carry the burden, you can put it in your backpack, you can put it in your briefcase. You could, and you're constantly carrying around, you know, 20, 30 pounds worth of extra weight, which just makes you stronger. So, but you know, it's. You know, you go through a development process and you look at, you know, what, what, what resources do we want to put on doing this from the company? And right now, again, a bunch of people are saying they're, they have to work at home now, work out at home and they can't because they don't have any equipment. Well, how can we make good, you know, what can we make that would make it possible for people to work out at home better?

• 2:15:31Jocko Willink?

  This is one of those things, you know, everybody wants, I mean, you, the amount of it, the amount of different workouts you can do with a kettlebell is phenomenal. So this and kettlebells are, you know, sold out everywhere.

• 2:15:45Speaker 01

  Bro, all gym equipment is sold out.

• 2:15:46Jocko Willink?

  Gym equipment everywhere is sold out.

• 2:15:48Speaker 01

  It's crazy because my wife, you know, my wife's talking in her little groups and all this stuff and everyone's asking her, like, hey, do you guys have any extra weights? And I'm like, why the heck is it like, why is everyone asking you this?

• 2:15:59Jocko Willink?

  Jennifer from kindergarten class asking about kettlebells.

• 2:16:03Speaker 01

  Gyms, because the gyms shut down and they're like, hey, they know that we have a, you know, a bunch of weights or whatever. But it's, it was crazy how many people were asking us like, hey, do you have any extra? My neighbor's like, hey, do you have any extra weights? Do you have any extra weights? Unfortunately, I don't have any extra weights. Like I use literally like every, I have two day work, like the workout programs, one day, one day two, and they just repeat. So I use all my weights, all of them. There's literally two weight, weights that I don't use. And yeah, sure enough, they just came and grabbed them or whatever. So it's like, man, yes. So we need that, the burden stuff where you can go online and get them.

• 2:16:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So that's the thing is, well, it'll ship with no weight in it. Like you'll fill it with shot with steel bearings or lead shot or whatever, you know, sand or rocks, depending on how heavy you want it. But yeah, the, the bottom line is we're very lucky. We're very lucky because not, I don't want to just call it luck, but to have the capability to own the supply chain and be able to make things that, that, that all of a sudden are in demand. Like there's not too many people that can pivot and go from manufacturing boots. Cause it's all in America. It's all, it's all in, under one roof.

• 2:17:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:17:19Jocko Willink?

  Hey, we can make these and we can make them starting in a day or two days. And that's exactly what we're doing is trying to. Trying to give people what they need during this crisis and it's been great so far. So if you guys want to check that stuff out, if you need a plyo box at your house and or if you need a burden to carry, you can check that out, masks, whatever, they're there as well. And then all the, all the different, all the different supplements are there. So appreciate the support and if you want, if you guys have ideas or whatever, you see a demand for something, let us know because that's what we're doing. We're, we're trying to help.

• 2:18:00Jocko Willink?

  Look, the obviously we, we want to get back, just like anyone else, everyone else, we want to get back to making jeans, boots and gees. That's what we want to make and shorts and t-shirts and everything else, but when there's a, when there's a need, we, we have to try and help, you know, get through this. So.

• 2:18:18Speaker 01

  Also, we have a store, JacoStore.com. It's online store. We're, you know, on Amazon, they're, they're the only, the only ship certain items quicker now. If you buy stuff through Amazon, it can take like a month, four weeks, you know.

• 2:18:32Jocko Willink?

  What's interesting about that is for Origin supplements on Amazon, those are in the category of getting shipped like immediately. Yeah, essential items. Yeah. It's, you know, they looked at the products that we make and the, the health items and that just put us in the category. So if you want to get Mulk, if you want to get joint warfare, if you want to get Cold War, you can get it from Amazon right now. And it's on that list of stuff that's considered essential, which is, which is awesome. Yeah.

• 2:19:03Speaker 01

  Yes. And yeah, that is.

• 2:19:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. What I did was when I was going through the list with, with Jeff and just pointed out some of the things that we had that I thought America needed.

• 2:19:14Speaker 01

  Sure. There you go.

• 2:19:18Jocko Willink?

  Me and Beesos, we go way back.

• 2:19:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, good, good relationship.

• 2:19:21Jocko Willink?

  Wow, that was a really bad attempt at a joke.

• 2:19:25Speaker 01

  I respect it. Nonetheless, the news is Jaco Store is, okay, is your get after it, discipline equals freedom shirt or hoodie, like, is that an essential item? Yeah, maybe. We'll just say it's debatable. I don't know. It depends on who you are. I'm not gonna make some crude kind of comparison, but you know, that, look, there's no answer for that. Maybe there is, maybe there isn't. I don't know. I'm not gonna claim I know with my irrefutable logic or nothing like this, but we are shipping normal. See what I'm saying? You don't have to wait the four weeks. Normal shipping, you know, maybe some here and there if there's like a big influx or whatever because of like, you know, the staffing and stuff, but shipping is normal. So that's good news. Anyway, jacostore.com, that's where you can

• 2:20:07Speaker 01

  get your discipline equals freedom shirts, hoodies, rash cards. Hey, get, get a rash card, man. I think we have some still, but be cool on the jujitsu just for now. Just be careful with it. Be careful with what we're doing. Nonetheless.

• 2:20:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I see what you're saying. You're putting forth a positive message.

• 2:20:25Speaker 01

  Yes, on both.

• 2:20:27Jocko Willink?

  But do you wear a rash card when you just lift?

• 2:20:30Speaker 01

  I don't. No, but I'm not against it. Yeah. Oh, yeah, like rings and stuff.

• 2:20:34Jocko Willink?

  Rings for sure. Rings for sure. Like that little bit of compression.

• 2:20:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:20:39Jocko Willink?

  And also the protection of your arms. Cause when you're doing a lot of, let's say, muscle ups or doing a lot of dips or ring pushups, you can get the chafing on your outer arm.

• 2:20:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, I can dig it. So yeah, keep that in mind for sure. But, but yeah, all cool stuff on there, I think. So yeah, if you want something, get something. We'll get it to you. Also, subscribe to the podcast if you haven't already on iTunes or Stitcher or Google Play, wherever you listen to iTunes. Is it essential?

• 2:21:11Speaker 01

  I think so nowadays, because let's face it, man, we're just doing less, you know, we're at the house more, all the stuff like good consumable stuff, good consumable stuff, podcasts, books, audio, or otherwise, like, there's gonna be more of that, I think that's, that's good, that helps us through this scenario.

• 2:21:30Jocko Willink?

  So, subscribe to the podcast is what Echo's saying in a really long roundabout way, which is fine, I mean, I guess we got, we're on, we're on quarantine, we've got plenty of time to explain things, to the history that no one cares about, but it's all good. And we just started another podcast called The Thread, it is myself and Daryl Cooper of Martyr Made Fame, is he famous?

• 2:21:51Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:21:52Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so, Daryl Cooper and I, he was on the last podcast, and the podcast, The Thread, is launched, we also have Grounded Podcast, where we talk about life and jujitsu.

• 2:22:07Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 2:22:07Jocko Willink?

  And everything in between, and then we've got the Warrior Kid Podcast, which you may have missed a release of Johnny Kim on the Warrior Kid Podcast, so go check that out, and also, when you're talking about Warrior Kids, don't forget to check out IrishOaksRanch.com, where Aiden, a Warrior Kid, is making soap, making killer soap, and that's the name of the soap, making killer soap, so that America can stay clean.

• 2:22:38Speaker 01

  Yep. Also, YouTube, we have a YouTube channel.

• 2:22:43Jocko Willink?

  Wash your hands, right? Wash your hands, that's the big deal right now, wash your hands, so get yourself some, you know, some Warrior Kid soap, some killer soap.

• 2:22:52Speaker 01

  Yep, kill the germs, man.

• 2:22:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, kill the virus.

• 2:22:55Speaker 01

  Virus.

• 2:22:56Jocko Willink?

  Is that, I heard that soap kills, yeah, they're saying soap, just like soap kills the virus.

• 2:23:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, washes it off, maybe, I don't know.

• 2:23:04Jocko Willink?

  I think it kills it.

• 2:23:04Speaker 01

  Well, because the virus can't live without a sustainable, what, habitat, right? It's like one of those situations, so, okay, look, I'm no germologist, biological expert, nothing like this, but, from what I understand, it, the virus can live only for a certain amount of time on surfaces, because it can't eat nothing, right? Can't live.

• 2:23:23Jocko Willink?

  It's a virus, bro, I don't think it's eating.

• 2:23:25Speaker 01

  Oh, it's eating stuff, if it's living, it's eating, trust me.

• 2:23:29Jocko Willink?

  Let's move on before we both look dumber.

• 2:23:33Jocko Willink?

  Then we're already looking.

• 2:23:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, impossible for me, but nonetheless, we have a YouTube channel. Video version of this podcast and excerpts.

• 2:23:40Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 2:23:41Speaker 01

  Enhanced and otherwise.

• 2:23:42Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 2:23:43Speaker 01

  Little excerpts help you through the day, through the times, through situations that may arise.

• 2:23:48Jocko Willink?

  Scenarios?

• 2:23:49Speaker 01

  Scenario, scenarios all day for sure. But yeah, YouTube channel, Jocko Podcast YouTube channel. All good.

• 2:23:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and this, the excerpts have been getting, let's just say, give you a little credit here. They've been getting a little bit better lately. Not the enhanced ones, because I haven't seen one of those in a while, because I know you've been busy doing other things.

• 2:24:07Speaker 01

  Damn it.

• 2:24:08Jocko Willink?

  Psychological Warfare, you can get that. The little psychological hitter to help you get through moments of weakness. That's the artist formerly known as Jocko Willink on iTunes, on MP3, whatever. Flipside Canvas. Messages for you in graphic form made by Dakota Meyer. You can check that out, flipsidecanvas.com. Got a bunch of books, Leadership Strategy and Tactics, Way the Warrior Kids 1, 2, and 3. Mikey and the Dragons, Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual, Extreme Ownership, Dichotomy in Leadership. All kinds of good books for you to check out. We got Echelon Front Leadership Consultancy. Where we solve problems through leadership.

• 2:24:50Jocko Willink?

  Go to echelonfront.com for details on that. We've got EF Online, which has been revamped. Reformulated, according to Echo Charles. Live, that's what it is. Live, interactive. It is myself, it is Leif Babbin, it is the entire Echelon Front team on there virtually. We're doing online live, three times a week right now, live Q and As. So if you want to ask me a question, go to efonline.com. We got the Leadership Primer, we got the Forum, we got the Q and A, we got Immediate Action Trails. We got all kinds of stuff to help you lead. And this is the type of time right now where there's.

• 2:25:33Jocko Willink?

  Mayhem going on, leadership is what is needed. So check out efonline.com. It's, it's, it's awesome. I think it's going to be the platform that becomes the premier way for people to get help in leadership in the world. And I know that's a bold statement. I'm making it. Also, we got the musters Orlando canceled. So that means next up, Phoenix, Arizona, September 16th and 17th, Dallas, Texas, December 3rd and 4th. Go to extremeownership.com for details. Look, we've sold out everything we've ever done. We actually canceled the show and a lot of the people that canceled Orlando moved over to Dallas and/or Phoenix. So we're going to fill out, we're going to, we're going to sell out faster than normal. So if you want to come,

• 2:26:18Jocko Willink?

  extremeownership.com and then EF Overwatch, which has executive leadership. It's our placement firm where we take leaders that understand the principles we talk about, and we place them into companies. We also have, that's for executive leadership, for frontline leadership. We got EFlegion.com. Look, we are getting, I, I know it's financial troubles right now with a lot of companies. There's also a lot of companies that have a massive demand and we are getting hit up to have, to, for, for employees, people that want to hire. So if you're a veteran, go to EFlegion.com and sign up so we can get you connected with people that are looking to hire.

• 2:26:59Jocko Willink?

  And if you haven't had enough of my head splitting, garish, overly aggressive voice, or you haven't had enough of Echo's random semi coherent postulations,

• 2:27:17Jocko Willink?

  then you can tune into us and connect with us on the interwebs, on Twitter, on Instagram and on G.

• 2:27:25Jocko Willink?

  Facy bulk Echo Charles is at Echo Charles and I am at Jocko Willink and to all of you that are overseas right now in uniform keeping evil at bay during these troubled times. Thanks for what you're doing in the police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, border patrol, secret service. Thank you for keeping us safe on the home front and special thanks to all the doctors, nurses and all medical personnel that are on the front lines every day right now. You're out there risking your health to keep

• 2:28:04Jocko Willink?

  the illness, the virus at bay. So, thank you for your courage and sacrifice. And everyone else out there, life is not perfect. And it isn't going to be easy, but it is all you've got.

• 2:28:28Jocko Willink?

  So make it a good run. And make sure you enjoy the jam. And you do that by getting out there every day. And getting after it. And until next time, this is Echo and Jaco. Out.